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Speaker 1: Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan. Think about living in

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Speaker 1: Alabama as this. When spring comes along, we do enjoy

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Speaker 1: the glorious weather that we have here, but we also

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Speaker 1: live day to day with a chill that goes up

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Speaker 1: and down our spine. About the possibility of the worst

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Speaker 1: weather you can possibly ever imagine. We've had deaths for

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Speaker 1: years and years related to tornadic activity. With that, we

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Speaker 1: learn to understand when there's a gathering storm something off

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Speaker 1: to our west. Most of the time that's headed our way.

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Speaker 1: But you know, in life in general, you can see

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Speaker 1: where there are are gathering storms headed your way. The

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Speaker 1: fellow I'm going to talk about today his family saw

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Speaker 1: such a storm gathering in Europe prior to World War Two,

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Speaker 1: and if his family had not made the decision to

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Speaker 1: leave their little town in Germany, it's quite possible that

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Speaker 1: the world would have been deprived of when the single

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Speaker 1: greatest scientific minds of the twentieth century. Today in memoriam,

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Speaker 1: we're going to be discussing the life of doctor Werner Schwitz.

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Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Body Backs. We've

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Speaker 1: talked a little bit Dave about my history as a

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Speaker 1: death investigator and for those that aren't necessarily familiar with that,

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Speaker 1: I'm not going to assume that everybody knows me. My

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Speaker 1: journey in this field started in Jefferson Parish, Louisiana, and

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Speaker 1: I was working in the morgue. I was not working

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Speaker 1: full time as an investigator. Then I was volunteering working

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Speaker 1: in a morgue. That would have been in eighty five,

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Speaker 1: and I became enamored with the field of forensics and

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Speaker 1: death investigation because of a friend of mine named Bill Donovan.

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Speaker 1: Bill has passed on now, but he was truly my

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Speaker 1: mentor probably one of the best forensic scientists I ever knew,

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Speaker 1: and I viewed him as a brother and older brother.

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Speaker 1: But Bill said, if you're going to work in this field,

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Speaker 1: you have to have the correct information. And he said

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Speaker 1: the best information I can give you. And of course

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Speaker 1: this is you know, before the days of the Internet

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Speaker 1: and all that sort of thing. He says, I'm going

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Speaker 1: to give you something that you're not going to find

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Speaker 1: in a library, certainly a public library. And it was

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Speaker 1: the second edition of a Medical Legal Investigation of Death

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Speaker 1: Guidelines for the Application of Pathology to Crime Investigation. I

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Speaker 1: was given a second edition all right. And when Bill

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Speaker 1: handed me this book, which was absolutely gigantic, particularly to

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Speaker 1: you know, a twenty something at that point in time

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Speaker 1: that was not well read, it felt like he had

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Speaker 1: it handed me a boat anchor, because the thing is

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Speaker 1: so heavy, it's so dense, and oh my gosh, I

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Speaker 1: started flipping through this thing and I couldn't believe the

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Speaker 1: images I will see because it depicted every horror that

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Speaker 1: you can everything from start to animal attacks to any

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Speaker 1: kind of homicide, you can imagine, sexual related things, related deaths,

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Speaker 1: related to sexual activities. I mean at decomposition. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it was just this wealth of knowledge that you could

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Speaker 1: not generally find and most people were not aware of.

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Speaker 1: But as I came to find out, the book itself

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Speaker 1: was a real benchmark in forensic science history because it

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Speaker 1: was it was truly the first time anybody had actually

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Speaker 1: codified this collection of data all in one text that

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Speaker 1: was at that time had become the gold standard and

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Speaker 1: was being used everywhere by forensic fellows, people doing fellowships,

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Speaker 1: practicing forensic pathologists, and even police. But it doesn't go

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Speaker 1: by that long title that I gave you. You know

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Speaker 1: what the name of this book is To people that

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Speaker 1: work in the field. It's simply called Spits and Fisher.

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Speaker 1: And anytime you say Spitz and Fisher, people automatically conjure

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Speaker 1: up this image of this book in their mind, and

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Speaker 1: they know it. It jumps to mind. And this book

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Speaker 1: is like when I got the second edition, which I

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Speaker 1: think was printed in like seventy seven or eighty, I

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Speaker 1: can't recall. And this thing is still in print, and

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Speaker 1: it had originally been printed in the sixties. And here's

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Speaker 1: how I know that. Do you know who wrote the

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Speaker 1: Ford in this thing?

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Speaker 2: Einstein?

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Speaker 1: No, it's a non scientist. Ramsey Clark actually wrote the

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Speaker 1: Ford and he was the Attorney General under Kennedy and

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Speaker 1: then became the Attorney General under Johnson. If I'm not mistaken,

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Speaker 1: I might have that wrong. But that's how far back

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Speaker 1: this went. And of course, being the chief I guess

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Speaker 1: you could view him as the chief law and federal

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Speaker 1: law enforcement agent in the nation. It carried some weight

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Speaker 1: with it when he essentially endorsed this book. But these

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Speaker 1: two authors. Russell Fisher, who passed on many years ago,

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Speaker 1: he was an interesting fellow in his own right. He

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Speaker 1: was the chief medical Examiner for the state of Maryland

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Speaker 1: and was working in Maryland when they still had corners.

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Speaker 1: He oversaw the transition to get away to do completely

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Speaker 1: away with a corner system in Maryland and turned it

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Speaker 1: into a statewide medical examiner's office. And that's another topic

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Speaker 1: we're going to talk about for another day, the corner system.

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Speaker 1: But Russell Fisher essentially oversaw the doing a way of

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Speaker 1: the corner system in Maryland and integrating the new medical

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Speaker 1: examiner system. But his partner in this book, Werner Spitz,

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Speaker 1: was an interesting character in and of himself because he

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Speaker 1: was the chief medical examiner in Wayne County, Michigan Detroit

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Speaker 1: in case you didn't know which. Of course, back in

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Speaker 1: the seventies, particularly Detroit began to gain a reputation as

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Speaker 1: a very violent town and you saw a lot of

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Speaker 1: forensic pathology that came out of there. So if you're

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Speaker 1: working as a death investigator in that environment in Detroit,

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Speaker 1: there's a lot that comes across your plate. There's a

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Speaker 1: lot that you can learn. But I think that it's

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Speaker 1: important to understand that that was at the end, I

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Speaker 1: guess closer to the end of doctor Spitz's career. Werner

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Speaker 1: Spitz he started he was born, interestingly enough, in what

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Speaker 1: was then Germany but is now Poland, and they saw

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Speaker 1: his parents, who both by the way, both his mom

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Speaker 1: and dad were physicians. They saw the rise of Nazism

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Speaker 1: and they fled. They actually fled and escaped the Nazis.

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Speaker 1: I think doctor Spitz was born in nineteen twenty six.

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Speaker 1: And the reason I wanted to do this is to

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Speaker 1: do this episode of Bodybags, is that doctor Spitz has

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Speaker 1: just passed away. And I got to tell you, Dave,

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Speaker 1: I don't know of a of a of a man

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Speaker 1: that had more of an impact on my life than

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Speaker 1: he did. But I never met him. I was in

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Speaker 1: a room with him one time, and I've met a

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Speaker 1: lot of friends of pathologists, but I never got a

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Speaker 1: chance to meet doctor Spitz. Because anytime you were around

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Speaker 1: him at a national meeting, you weren't the only one

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Speaker 1: around him. And look where all he is and was,

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Speaker 1: and you know, everybody would turn to him for advice.

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Speaker 2: You know, when you told me you wanted to do this,

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Speaker 2: my first thought was I read there was an article

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Speaker 2: in Time magazine a couple of years ago, and it

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Speaker 2: was talking about him, specifically how he didn't coin the

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Speaker 2: phrase medical detective, but he certainly loved that he liked

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Speaker 2: that term. But they wrote this article on him. It

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Speaker 2: was two years ago in April, and they were, you know,

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Speaker 2: they were writing about him and the Casey Anthony, the

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Speaker 2: Kaylee Anthony case that he was called Christmas Eve who

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Speaker 2: come down and they needed his opinion on that's that's who,

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Speaker 2: that's who. Werner's fitz was that they had this huge

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Speaker 2: case Kaylee Anthony, Casey Anthony, the whole thing the world

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Speaker 2: is watching, and they called him to come in and

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Speaker 2: give us your medical opinion of what happened.

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Speaker 1: And that goes to who he was. I think, uh,

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Speaker 1: I love that the fact that you brought up this,

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Speaker 1: this term of medical detective, I find it intot. I

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Speaker 1: think there's a couple of there's a TV show out

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Speaker 1: there or something called the Medical Detectives or something like that,

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Speaker 1: and I think, you know, you might think you're the

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Speaker 1: medical detectives, but Werner Spitz was actually the medical detective.

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Speaker 1: He he was the person I think first that that

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Speaker 1: thought of this idea, because by their nature, physicians clinicians

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Speaker 1: are they're truly investigators. That's why I tell I tell people,

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Speaker 1: and this, you know, kind of goes hand in hand

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Speaker 1: with this. If I were to go out and seek

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Speaker 1: out a group of people that I was going to

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Speaker 1: hire if I was starting a medical legal staff, okay,

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Speaker 1: to work as investigators. Do you know who I would

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Speaker 1: hire as my investigators. I would actually hire nurses. I

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Speaker 1: wouldn't hire cops. Because the lion's share of death that

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Speaker 1: you work for in a medical examiner system and in

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Speaker 1: a corner system, they are not I'll tell you what

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Speaker 1: they are not. They are not homicides. That makes up

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Speaker 1: the very tiny percentage. The most of the cases that

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Speaker 1: you work are natural deaths. In a homicides or part

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Speaker 1: of suicides accidents has certainly undetermines, but you have to

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Speaker 1: have somebody that has an understanding of the big picture.

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Speaker 1: You know how our systems function, how they all come together.

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Speaker 1: Because you have to you have to look into these

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Speaker 1: deaths and look every single death that you go out

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Speaker 1: on or that you work. You're not surrounded by a

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Speaker 1: group of forensic scientists that are there, or crime scene

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Speaker 1: investigators or detectives. You're essentially that lone voice in the

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Speaker 1: wilderness that's out adjacent to a bed of somebody that

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Speaker 1: has passed a way in their sleep. What are you

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Speaker 1: going to call this? How do you term it? And

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Speaker 1: people say, well, it's just a natural death. Well, natural

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Speaker 1: is a classification for manner. It's not the cause, what

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Speaker 1: what's the What's what are the cause to factors of death?

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Speaker 1: And that's why medical people, I think, in my field

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Speaker 1: medical legal death investigation makes such tremendous investigators because by

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Speaker 1: their nature, by their nature, nurses and physicians are investigators.

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Speaker 1: They're curious. They want to try to understand scientifically form

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Speaker 1: and function. Doctor Spitz was he he was, you know,

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Speaker 1: he's a jibt. We all stand kind of in his shadow.

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Speaker 1: And so when he passed away, it's it's literally kind

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Speaker 1: of the turning of a page, if you will, where

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Speaker 1: you're going from that generation to the next generation. And

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Speaker 1: some of you know, Russell Fisher is, you know, he's

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Speaker 1: he was ten years older, you know, than doctor Spiz

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Speaker 1: and doctor Spiss died I think ninety six years old

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Speaker 1: when he finally passed off this mortal coil to steal

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Speaker 1: the words of the Bard. He he had passed on

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Speaker 1: some years before. But you know, I think about the

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Speaker 1: mes that are out there, the corners that that generation

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Speaker 1: has gone away. I worked with doctor William Eckert, who

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Speaker 1: again was one of these giants that was in that

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Speaker 1: group of people, you know, like that. We think about

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Speaker 1: Tom Degucci, the chief medical examiner or corner for LA

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Speaker 1: that you and I have talked about extensively, who's a

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Speaker 1: hero of mine. We still you know, have with us,

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Speaker 1: doctor Michael Biden, and of course a per that that

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Speaker 1: I greatly admire, cyrilh Weck. He's still with us up

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Speaker 1: at Ducane in Pittsburgh, but that generation is slowly leaving.

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Speaker 1: And doctor Spitz is another, you know, kind of benchmark.

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Speaker 1: But I think that all of all of those people

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Speaker 1: along the way recognized his expertise because my gosh, Dave,

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Speaker 1: can you just briefly, briefly, uh and it you got

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Speaker 1: to we've got in there. We only have a limited

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Speaker 1: amount of time. Can you just mention the cases that

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Speaker 1: this man consulted on over the years, just to give

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Speaker 1: our audience and yeah, yeah, just because there are hundreds here, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but there there are some that you yeah, I bet

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Speaker 1: you dollars to donuts, folks are going to recognize these names.

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Speaker 1: The floors here, my front yours.

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Speaker 2: We mentioned to you know, Casey Anthony in that case,

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Speaker 2: and it came to my attention because I'm thinking, all right,

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Speaker 2: he's ninety seven when he passes away, and at the

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Speaker 2: age of eighty. Okay, at eighty years old, he's being

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Speaker 2: flown from Michigan to Orlando, Florida on Christmas to look

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Speaker 2: at this back to give an opinion to the attorneys

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Speaker 2: about what happened. You know, he's not one of those

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Speaker 2: people you could buy. He was a person that you

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Speaker 2: hired to get his medical opinion of what took place

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Speaker 2: in this prison's passing.

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Speaker 1: And let me let me interject this right here. I

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Speaker 1: will take exception. I'll go toe to toe with anybody

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Speaker 1: out there that ever implies that he could be bought. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you know he is not. He was not that kind

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Speaker 1: of person. He's not a gun for hire, that term,

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Speaker 1: I really do. I'm sorry to interrupt you. I just

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Speaker 1: interject this into this.

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Speaker 2: Just so you know, for people like me on the

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Speaker 2: journalist's side of crime reporting and what have you, I

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Speaker 2: don't understand. I don't know the medical stuff like you do.

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Speaker 2: I know the medical legal people we've heard of out

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Speaker 2: when you mentioned Werner s Fitz. I know his name

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Speaker 2: because he's associated with JFK. Martin, Luther King Jr. Mary

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Speaker 2: Joe Kopecne. Think about that for just a minute, because

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Speaker 2: you had the whole Kennedy thing is going on. He

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Speaker 2: was there consulting on JFK to figure out what happened,

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Speaker 2: and all he could say was why did they do this?

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Speaker 2: In terms of how bad they messed up the autopsy

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Speaker 2: of the President of the United States of America. You know,

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Speaker 2: he was the one who said there wasn't one person

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Speaker 2: in the room that should have been doing this.

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Speaker 1: Have we talked about that before day. He's the one

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Speaker 1: that took it. He's actually the person that took exception

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Speaker 1: to the naval pathologists that were assigned to this case.

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Speaker 1: And hey, he was he was literally, you're gonna get

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Speaker 1: me started here.

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Speaker 2: I encourage you to listen to our episode about JFK.

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Speaker 1: I really do, I do, please please do? He was literally.

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Speaker 1: Vernon Spits was literally an hour and a fifteen minute

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Speaker 1: plane flight from the hospital where JFK's autopsy was performed.

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Speaker 1: He could have been there, a matter of fact, he

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Speaker 1: could have. They could have brought him there, and a

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Speaker 1: lot of other people. Russell Fisher was right up the road,

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Speaker 1: you know, but you had these people that could have

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Speaker 1: you know, interjected themselves, the world would be a kind.

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Speaker 2: Of a different place at this a lot different. He

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Speaker 2: understood that, I think, and I think that's what actually

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Speaker 2: brought him to the point where I mean about the

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Speaker 2: Casey Anthony because in Time magazine when they wrote the piece,

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Speaker 2: it says the skeleton. He was talking about how he

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Speaker 2: was brought in to look at this toddler and at

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Speaker 2: this point we at all because by this point she

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Speaker 2: was still missing and they had found the body, a

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Speaker 2: body they're trying to identify the body. They're trying to

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Speaker 2: identify what happened because there were different stories being told

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Speaker 2: about what they've believed theoretically happened in the life and

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Speaker 2: death of this little todd broke all of our hearts.

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Speaker 2: I don't know anybody that was not impacted by that case.

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Speaker 2: And it's interesting because you know Casey and Anthony. At

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Speaker 2: the point that he was called in, she had already

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Speaker 2: been indicted for her daughter's murder. Her defense lawyer was

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Speaker 2: seeking a medical opinion. And it's important to note that

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Speaker 2: when you got bernerd Spitz to come and give you

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Speaker 2: an opinion, it was his opinion of what he witnesses

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Speaker 2: and the facts that he sees it's not what you

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Speaker 2: might be wanting, and you might burn the papers when

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Speaker 2: he's done, but he's going to give you his opinions.

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Speaker 2: So they were going after it, and he spent his

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Speaker 2: Christmas Eve examining the skull of this toddler. After he

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Speaker 2: finished up his work, he packed up and went home.

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Speaker 2: In the article in Time Magazine, I encourage you to read,

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Speaker 2: it points out that the next morning he's up with

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Speaker 2: his family opening Christmas presents. Twelve hours earlier, he's examining

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Speaker 2: the skull of a toddler who he passed away, and

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Speaker 2: he's asked his opinion of that. But he can compartmentalize

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Speaker 2: his life to be able to be with his family

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Speaker 2: and to be in the moment with his family, which

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Speaker 2: is a tough account. I cannot imagine what that must

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Speaker 2: be like, Joe. And there have been times I've mentioned

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Speaker 2: to you, based on what I know you've gone through,

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Speaker 2: I don't know how you get out of bed some

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Speaker 2: days for real, just with the things that you have done.

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Speaker 2: And I think you are doing a great service to

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Speaker 2: many people by sharing your story publicly, like you are

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Speaker 2: here on Body Bags and on every other program that

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Speaker 2: you appear on. As an expert, because I think people

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Speaker 2: need to know it's not just a good crime story.

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Speaker 2: There's a dead person here, and we need to know why.

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Speaker 2: You're never going to get closure, but you can have answers,

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Speaker 2: and we deserve answers. That person, the dead person's family

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Speaker 2: needs answers, you.

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Speaker 1: Know, yeah, they do. And I think that doctor Spitz

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Speaker 1: understood that early on. I think maybe that was I

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Speaker 1: think that that again, this is just me projecting.

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Speaker 2: Okay, Ramsey to got to add that one into this mix.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, well look he you know, look he was

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Speaker 1: in you had mentioned, uh, you had mentioned Mary Joe Kopecnik.

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Speaker 1: He was actually involved in the Phil Spector case as well.

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Speaker 1: I didn't know that. Yeah, the Phil Spector case. Uh,

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Speaker 1: I'm just you know, there's there's they go. The list

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Speaker 1: goes on and yeah, the Prepping murder case, he was

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Speaker 1: involved in that. Richard or Maris uh and so just

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Speaker 1: and and the list just goes on and on and on.

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Speaker 1: But you know it's yeah, there are a lot of

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Speaker 1: these cases that kind of rise to the top because

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Speaker 1: the media, you know, creates this kind of world around

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Speaker 1: these cases. But you know, doctor Spitz was the kind

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Speaker 1: of person and I've heard this second hand that he

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Speaker 1: he was willing to give of his time. He was

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Speaker 1: not a person seeking media attention. But first off, I

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Speaker 1: think that a lot of it has to go with

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Speaker 1: the fact that he comes from a family of physicians.

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Speaker 1: His son, doctor Spitt's son is actually a pathologist as well,

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Speaker 1: and so, you know, this is something that has continued on.

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Speaker 1: But you know, he came into the world with this

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Speaker 1: kind of inquisitive mindset, and when you begin to learn

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Speaker 1: his history and you begin to see who he was,

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Speaker 1: you understand why people that have complex problems would want

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Speaker 1: to turn to somebody like him to give the answers,

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Speaker 1: because he was always inquisitive up until he passed on.

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Speaker 1: He had that ability. That was what he you know,

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Speaker 1: I've heard a couple of quotes about him. He didn't fish,

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Speaker 1: he didn't golf. He you know, this is me paraphrasing,

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Speaker 1: he pathologied. That was his that was his advocation and

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Speaker 1: his vocation. And so isn't that an interesting thing? And

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Speaker 1: another fascinating part of this is that he loved going

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Speaker 1: out to enjoy good steak dinner with people and to

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Speaker 1: uh you know, uh sit around and tell great stories

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Speaker 1: and you know, at the end of the day. Uh,

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Speaker 1: those of us, as you can tell from my big

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Speaker 1: mouth because I'm running all the time. We are storytellers,

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Speaker 1: you know, we tell the stories of the dead. And

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Speaker 1: when you think about all of the life and deaths

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Speaker 1: that he was kind of intertwined with over the years,

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Speaker 1: he was able to, uh, to paint, paint a story.

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Speaker 1: And this is the key to being a really good

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Speaker 1: forensic practitioner, where you can understand such these such complex

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Speaker 1: scientific constructs and to sit in a room with total

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Speaker 1: strangers that are deciding matters of life and death and

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Speaker 1: being able to break them down to their base components

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Speaker 1: and explain it to people that don't have any education whatsoever,

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Speaker 1: and that they can come to a conclusion based upon

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Speaker 1: the evidence that you're presenting that could determine if somebody

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Speaker 1: is going to go home or if they're going to

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Speaker 1: go to president. When I found out that doctor Spitz

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Speaker 1: had had passed on, I didn't immediately think about our

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Speaker 1: JFK episode, Dave, But you know, reflectively, we talked about

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Speaker 1: that that that episode, we talked about JFK's assassination at

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Speaker 1: great length, and we talked about all of the players

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Speaker 1: that kind of entered into that room on that on

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Speaker 1: that day, and honestly, I when he passed away, all

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Speaker 1: I could think about was the textbook. I forgot that

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Speaker 1: he was actually that initial group of forensic pathologists that

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Speaker 1: were asked to consult on the JFK assassination, and that

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Speaker 1: it just, you know, it just kind of struck me.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 2: See, that's what I remember from our episode. It's so

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Speaker 2: funny when you when I saw that he had passed,

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Speaker 2: my first thought was how you mentioned that he was,

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Speaker 2: that werner Spitz was so close and you mentioned all

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Speaker 2: the other yo. Yeah, all the other big name pathologists

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Speaker 2: who have just so much that could have been brought

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Speaker 2: to the autopsy of the President of the United States

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Speaker 2: of America, besides the fact that he should have never

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Speaker 2: been moved from Texas to Washington. Take that off the table,

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Speaker 2: take all the things to win. And when you realize

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Speaker 2: all of the things they had, they being the people

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Speaker 2: in charge, had to ignore and not do, you realized

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Speaker 2: something bad was afoot. I'll leave it at that. You

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Speaker 2: guys make your own conclusions. I encourage you to listen

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Speaker 2: to our episode and listen to what werner Spitz said

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Speaker 2: about what was done in that room with the body

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Speaker 2: of the former the president of the United States of America.

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Speaker 2: He was given color photos to look at to study.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Right, And here was my question, Joe, because he came

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Speaker 2: up with some very firm ideas on what he believed

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Speaker 2: took place based on the photos. Is that something that

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Speaker 2: you've ever been asked to do, to make a determination

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Speaker 2: or a recommendation or a suggestion or given opinion based

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Speaker 2: not on the actual physical examination of the body, but

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Speaker 2: to do it through photographs or something other than actually

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Speaker 2: his body.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I have, and generally ill stay away from consulting

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Speaker 1: on any kind of cases. I refer a lot of cases.

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Speaker 1: I have people that reach out to me constantly because

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Speaker 1: they they see me on air and that sort of thing, and.

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Speaker 2: Till most people want you to tell them what they

396
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Speaker 2: believe has happened.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, instead of just kind of the unvarnished truth. Uh, doctor,

398
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Speaker 1: and listen, I can see why because you know, not

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Speaker 1: only was doctor Spitzen author, uh, And not only was

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Speaker 1: he a practicing forensic pathologist and an administrator of a

401
00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:12,680
Speaker 1: very busy office. At his core, he's a teacher and

402
00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:15,639
Speaker 1: so and I can look at it through my teacher

403
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Speaker 1: eyes when I'm thinking about the JFK assassination retrospectively and

404
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Speaker 1: what he saw, because he's probably thinking about this, yeah,

405
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Speaker 1: as a practicing forensic pathologist, but he's also thinking, where

406
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Speaker 1: going to hell do you guys get your training? And

407
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Speaker 1: why aren't you applying basic principles here? Because it's very

408
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Speaker 1: very frustrating, you know, when you're doing a forensic autopsy there.

409
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Speaker 1: You know, we always go on about how all cases

410
00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:44,840
Speaker 1: are different. Well, yeah they are, but there are some

411
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Speaker 1: basic rules and tenants that you have to abide by

412
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Speaker 1: or you're you know, there's what you have is not

413
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Speaker 1: going to be worth the gunpowder to blow to hell

414
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Speaker 1: in the end, Garbage in, garbage out. And that's the

415
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Speaker 1: way it works. If you were going to bake a

416
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Speaker 1: cake that comes out of a box, if you don't

417
00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:04,080
Speaker 1: follow each one of those steps along the way, you

418
00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:06,240
Speaker 1: might have something that's kind of a cake, but it's

419
00:27:06,280 --> 00:27:08,560
Speaker 1: not really a cake, and it's certainly not something I

420
00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:12,040
Speaker 1: want to consume. And that's very basic. But that's the

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00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:16,880
Speaker 1: understanding here. And you know, when he looks at these

422
00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:21,119
Speaker 1: steps along the way with JFK and everything that he saw,

423
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Speaker 1: everything that he read, he was really the first person

424
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Speaker 1: that are one of the first people that came up

425
00:27:28,280 --> 00:27:31,160
Speaker 1: with there were things that were really done wrong here

426
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Speaker 1: because when he got this data and this is before

427
00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:41,200
Speaker 1: this is before the House Committee Select Committee on Sassinoy,

428
00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:44,040
Speaker 1: this is prior to that. So you've got this group.

429
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Speaker 2: By the way, he was added to that group because

430
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Speaker 2: of who he was.

431
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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, precisely, and all the other individuals that were involved,

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Speaker 1: you know, that had that were esteemed like this at

433
00:27:55,240 --> 00:28:00,440
Speaker 1: that particular time. And look, I don't necessarily agree with

434
00:28:01,040 --> 00:28:04,119
Speaker 1: his findings. You know, I've stated frontly I think that

435
00:28:04,160 --> 00:28:08,600
Speaker 1: it's more than one shooter. He he essentially validated what

436
00:28:08,640 --> 00:28:12,679
Speaker 1: the Warrant Commission had put forward. However, what he did

437
00:28:13,359 --> 00:28:16,920
Speaker 1: and I don't throw around the term brave, but when

438
00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:21,240
Speaker 1: you've got people that are how can I delicately put this,

439
00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:24,080
Speaker 1: When you've got people that are in that sphere that

440
00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:28,080
Speaker 1: seem to have trouble in their life as a result

441
00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:30,880
Speaker 1: of going against the flow, and he would have been

442
00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:34,040
Speaker 1: maybe aware of that, it's kind of a brave and

443
00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:36,960
Speaker 1: you're looking you're looking in the eyes of the FEDS

444
00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:39,520
Speaker 1: at that point in time and their conclusions that they reached.

445
00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:42,040
Speaker 1: He was one of the first people to dip his

446
00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:44,800
Speaker 1: toe in the water and say, look, you guys kind

447
00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:47,880
Speaker 1: of screwed up here. And so that that is a

448
00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:50,920
Speaker 1: mark of bravery in that sense, I think in that time,

449
00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:54,640
Speaker 1: and he was willing. I think that he was willing

450
00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:56,800
Speaker 1: to do this in a lot of the cases. He

451
00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:01,080
Speaker 1: I hesitate to talk about this a lot, but I

452
00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:06,880
Speaker 1: will say in very broad terms that he certainly stuck

453
00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:09,240
Speaker 1: his neck out when it came to Jean Pinney. He

454
00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:13,280
Speaker 1: was not afraid to do that. And there was a

455
00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:16,880
Speaker 1: lawsuit that followed after his conclusions that he had arrived

456
00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:20,600
Speaker 1: at but again, but again, and they did they settled

457
00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:23,640
Speaker 1: out of court. But again, you've got a man here

458
00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:28,040
Speaker 1: who's highly esteemed that was really willing, and I would

459
00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:31,760
Speaker 1: imagine he had an awareness of what could be coming

460
00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:35,160
Speaker 1: down the tracks if he even said anything, and it did.

461
00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:38,920
Speaker 1: It came predictably, it came his way. But I don't

462
00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:42,360
Speaker 1: you know, it probably didn't matter to him because he's

463
00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:45,280
Speaker 1: speaking the truth as he saw it relative to scientific

464
00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:47,880
Speaker 1: facts as he saw it. And so I think that

465
00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:49,560
Speaker 1: that's that's interesting.

466
00:29:49,560 --> 00:29:51,840
Speaker 2: How like me will say I disagree with him when

467
00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:54,760
Speaker 2: I absolutely know nothing more than basically a Saturday Morning

468
00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:57,480
Speaker 2: Cartoon on science. You know, we happen all the time.

469
00:29:57,720 --> 00:30:00,320
Speaker 2: I've heard more people say, oh, I totally disagree with that,

470
00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:04,600
Speaker 2: and you're going, really okay, So you've got doctors here,

471
00:30:04,840 --> 00:30:07,360
Speaker 2: You've got you know, Berner Spitz. Look, man, I might

472
00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:09,800
Speaker 2: disagree with him, but it's not on science because I

473
00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:12,160
Speaker 2: can't discuss science on that level when I listen to

474
00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:15,120
Speaker 2: you talk about things, Joe, I might not want it

475
00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:17,200
Speaker 2: to seem that way, but I have no way to

476
00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:20,360
Speaker 2: validate what you know. I'm just throwing a curveball. I

477
00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:23,200
Speaker 2: don't know. I really don't. But we are amazing people

478
00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:25,080
Speaker 2: that can come up with such a firm opinion and

479
00:30:25,120 --> 00:30:27,680
Speaker 2: throw it out there for all the world without any

480
00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:30,800
Speaker 2: science backing it up. Where Werner Spitz says something backed

481
00:30:30,840 --> 00:30:33,160
Speaker 2: up by science and what he believes. And I'll tell

482
00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:35,000
Speaker 2: you what It made sense to me when I heard

483
00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:35,760
Speaker 2: I heard what.

484
00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:38,560
Speaker 1: He was saying, and that's that's his perception of the

485
00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:42,320
Speaker 1: reality of that of that moment, Tom And uh, it's

486
00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:45,600
Speaker 1: it's a slippery slope, it is. And look even and

487
00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:49,080
Speaker 1: he understood this, I think because he You're not going

488
00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:52,200
Speaker 1: to sit here and tell me the universal.

489
00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:55,360
Speaker 2: You not yet, Dave, But I know, but yeah, he

490
00:30:55,440 --> 00:30:55,840
Speaker 2: had to know.

491
00:30:56,080 --> 00:30:59,440
Speaker 1: I cannot imagine that doctor Spits agreed with every single

492
00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:02,760
Speaker 1: thing that the police came to him with, or every

493
00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:06,280
Speaker 1: single thing the prosecutor came to him with, because he

494
00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:10,400
Speaker 1: was so incredibly such a bright light in the world

495
00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:13,840
Speaker 1: of forensics. And look, let's face it, many times the

496
00:31:13,880 --> 00:31:20,080
Speaker 1: people in the legal world, they they don't want to

497
00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:24,200
Speaker 1: hear the truth. And it's really hard because it doesn't

498
00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:26,800
Speaker 1: necessarily go wrong with the narrative that they're kind of

499
00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:29,240
Speaker 1: working up, you know, to explain things. And that can

500
00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:31,960
Speaker 1: be either prosecution or defense. Okay, we're not picking on

501
00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:35,719
Speaker 1: anybody here, but when you look at science, when you

502
00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:39,160
Speaker 1: look at science and you say, okay, this is what

503
00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:46,600
Speaker 1: I believe happened based upon my background and my education,

504
00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:50,400
Speaker 1: my experience, and this is how it went. These are

505
00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:52,120
Speaker 1: the steps, and he takes you through it and he

506
00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:57,600
Speaker 1: explains it step by step by step. Legal community generally

507
00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:00,760
Speaker 1: doesn't dig that too much because there's and there's not

508
00:32:00,840 --> 00:32:03,720
Speaker 1: a lot of gray, you know, and the legal community

509
00:32:03,760 --> 00:32:06,800
Speaker 1: kind of, you know, they they dance in the gray.

510
00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:10,480
Speaker 1: Many times you don't. And that's and that's it runs

511
00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:13,680
Speaker 1: contrary to what we do in medical legal death investigation.

512
00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:15,560
Speaker 2: Let me ask you about this because as he's brought

513
00:32:15,560 --> 00:32:19,120
Speaker 2: in used the top mom case Kathy Anthony case where

514
00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:23,320
Speaker 2: he's brought in by the defense and he examines the

515
00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:25,080
Speaker 2: body of a toddler.

516
00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:26,080
Speaker 1: Who's what remained of the body?

517
00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:29,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, what remained and he comes up with his conclusions,

518
00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:31,920
Speaker 2: which you mentioned he was not about bought and paid

519
00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:35,200
Speaker 2: for Gunslinger. He gave his opinion and left based on

520
00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:36,960
Speaker 2: you know, I'm paid to be here to give you

521
00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:38,960
Speaker 2: my opinion, not to tell you what you want to

522
00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:41,520
Speaker 2: hear or what you believe happened. And when he got

523
00:32:41,560 --> 00:32:44,320
Speaker 2: done with that particular examination, I don't know how many

524
00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:47,320
Speaker 2: people know this. You know, he actually did not believe

525
00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:51,200
Speaker 2: that the what he found necessarily backed up what the

526
00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:54,360
Speaker 2: prosecution was saying happened. It's not saying that Casey Anthony

527
00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:56,840
Speaker 2: was innocent or anything. He's just saying what he saw

528
00:32:56,880 --> 00:33:00,160
Speaker 2: with the body right, was not consistent with the story,

529
00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:03,280
Speaker 2: with the theory the prosecution had. And I've always thought

530
00:33:03,280 --> 00:33:06,720
Speaker 2: about that because they did lose that case, and I thought,

531
00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:09,760
Speaker 2: I wonder how many times I've seen cases that we

532
00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:12,160
Speaker 2: because we're only hearing one side. You know, the TV

533
00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:14,320
Speaker 2: side or what have you. But he was able to

534
00:33:14,360 --> 00:33:16,760
Speaker 2: come in and look at just the physical evidence, yeah,

535
00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:19,360
Speaker 2: and have an opinion based on that. My opinion is

536
00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:21,880
Speaker 2: based on the garbage I know about Casey Anthony, not

537
00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:23,840
Speaker 2: the baby, I mean, not the tddler. I don't know

538
00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:26,600
Speaker 2: anything about the title other than duct tape over the mouth.

539
00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:29,959
Speaker 2: So when you come into that situation, Joe, Yeah, and

540
00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:33,800
Speaker 2: you're called in by as a consultant or as an expert, whatever,

541
00:33:34,760 --> 00:33:38,280
Speaker 2: and you give them your opinion, are they do de

542
00:33:38,320 --> 00:33:39,840
Speaker 2: bound to use it? Or can they throw that away

543
00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:41,200
Speaker 2: and keep on going with what they want?

544
00:33:41,880 --> 00:33:44,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, well they can. And of course if you're brought

545
00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:48,440
Speaker 1: in as you know, let's don't let's don't be naive

546
00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:52,080
Speaker 1: here for one moment. If you're brought in as a consultant,

547
00:33:52,120 --> 00:33:54,760
Speaker 1: you're being paid all right to do that. But you

548
00:33:54,800 --> 00:33:59,000
Speaker 1: know what the state pays for the forensic pathologists that

549
00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:01,400
Speaker 1: work for the State Medical Examiner's office. They pay for

550
00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:06,080
Speaker 1: the people that work at the crime lab there, you know, people,

551
00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:10,360
Speaker 1: everybody's paid. Everybody is paid, you know, and of course attorneys,

552
00:34:10,400 --> 00:34:11,880
Speaker 1: you know, one of the things they'll do when they

553
00:34:11,920 --> 00:34:14,879
Speaker 1: get experts on the STANDO one of the first things

554
00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:17,120
Speaker 1: they do. And look, if you don't believe me, look

555
00:34:17,160 --> 00:34:20,920
Speaker 1: it up, because it's it's always Can you please tell

556
00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:23,400
Speaker 1: us how much you're being paid right now as as

557
00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:25,920
Speaker 1: you know, And that's that's been said over and over again,

558
00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:30,960
Speaker 1: as if it's bad to receive compensation for what you're doing,

559
00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:35,680
Speaker 1: and it implies something else. But with you know, with

560
00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:43,680
Speaker 1: a person of the intellectual ability of doctor Spitz, and

561
00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:47,360
Speaker 1: I have his textbook right beside me at all times, okay,

562
00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:51,840
Speaker 1: I have I have I have evidence of his politic

563
00:34:53,280 --> 00:34:57,080
Speaker 1: and I've seen them played out, you know, from text

564
00:34:57,120 --> 00:35:00,680
Speaker 1: to whatever. For someone of him his ability. This is

565
00:35:01,239 --> 00:35:06,200
Speaker 1: what many scientists would like. I don't want to hear

566
00:35:06,200 --> 00:35:10,239
Speaker 1: about your conclusions, whether it's the defense or the prosecution.

567
00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:14,359
Speaker 1: I don't want to hear about what you think may

568
00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:17,879
Speaker 1: have happened. Let me see the evidence before you ever

569
00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:21,640
Speaker 1: influence me at all, because it is you are influenced,

570
00:35:21,640 --> 00:35:25,880
Speaker 1: I think, by by these these outside forces that are

571
00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:27,880
Speaker 1: trying to sway you one way or another. And it

572
00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:31,160
Speaker 1: is a push pull, you know, just you know, the

573
00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:34,240
Speaker 1: idea of forensics. We've talked about this before the forum.

574
00:35:34,840 --> 00:35:38,759
Speaker 1: This is where debate and argument take place, and so

575
00:35:39,120 --> 00:35:41,239
Speaker 1: you've got this head to head clash. So you've got

576
00:35:41,239 --> 00:35:43,799
Speaker 1: this I think they call it a conflict model, is

577
00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:46,280
Speaker 1: what the courts call it, where you're always in conflict

578
00:35:46,280 --> 00:35:48,640
Speaker 1: with one of the other. Then that winds up hopefully

579
00:35:48,719 --> 00:35:52,759
Speaker 1: leading to whatever they term is justice. And so there

580
00:35:52,840 --> 00:35:55,560
Speaker 1: is a push pull, and it's hard to be a neutral,

581
00:35:56,120 --> 00:35:59,880
Speaker 1: a neutral entity within that environment because it's very dynamic.

582
00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:03,440
Speaker 1: Things are flying back and forth. And so with doctor Spitz,

583
00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:08,640
Speaker 1: he brings this huge brain of his into this environment,

584
00:36:08,719 --> 00:36:13,040
Speaker 1: this inquisitive person that he was, and to be able

585
00:36:13,080 --> 00:36:17,560
Speaker 1: to sit there and look at data where he is

586
00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:20,279
Speaker 1: not going to be influenced by anything else, and he

587
00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:24,239
Speaker 1: is going to come to a scientific conclusion independent of

588
00:36:24,320 --> 00:36:26,960
Speaker 1: maybe what the state medical examiner came up with or

589
00:36:27,000 --> 00:36:29,800
Speaker 1: what the defense is telling him. That he simply because

590
00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:32,040
Speaker 1: you know, it's like an old friend told me many

591
00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:34,960
Speaker 1: years ago, the only thing you ever die with is

592
00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:39,000
Speaker 1: your good name. And I think that when Werner Spitz

593
00:36:39,680 --> 00:36:43,480
Speaker 1: passed on away from this earth, he died with that

594
00:36:43,560 --> 00:36:53,799
Speaker 1: good name intact. On April fourteenth, twenty twenty four, my

595
00:36:53,920 --> 00:36:59,120
Speaker 1: field lost a giant. So to this giant, I would

596
00:36:59,160 --> 00:37:03,440
Speaker 1: like to say humbly and gratefully, I would like to

597
00:37:03,480 --> 00:37:09,200
Speaker 1: extend to thanks to a teacher who never knew his student,

598
00:37:09,560 --> 00:37:16,160
Speaker 1: and from a student who never met his teacher, a

599
00:37:16,239 --> 00:37:18,520
Speaker 1: sincere thank you for all that you did, from me

600
00:37:18,840 --> 00:37:21,840
Speaker 1: and for everybody else in the world of forensics. Here's

601
00:37:21,840 --> 00:37:26,319
Speaker 1: the you, doctor Bernerspietz. May you rest in peace. I'm

602
00:37:26,400 --> 00:37:29,760
Speaker 1: Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Bodybags