WEBVTT - How Might Universal Basic Income Work? 0:00:01.920 --> 0:00:07.120 Welcome to brain Stuff production of iHeart Radio, Hey brain Stuff, 0:00:07.160 --> 0:00:11.440 Lauren Vogebam. Here near the end of Dr Martin Luther 0:00:11.520 --> 0:00:15.240 King Jr's life, he turned his attention to fighting poverty. 0:00:15.880 --> 0:00:18.720 He wrote, and where do we go from here? Chaos 0:00:18.800 --> 0:00:22.760 or community quote, The simplest approach will prove to be 0:00:22.800 --> 0:00:26.239 the most effective. The solution to poverty is to abolish 0:00:26.239 --> 0:00:31.200 it directly by a now widely discussed measure, the guaranteed income. 0:00:32.800 --> 0:00:35.880 Over half a century later, one in eight Americans, thirty 0:00:35.920 --> 0:00:39.000 eight million people are still living below the poverty line, 0:00:39.040 --> 0:00:43.040 according to the Census Bureau. Millions more jobs are threatened 0:00:43.040 --> 0:00:47.320 by automation and artificial intelligence. Yet mL ka's notion of 0:00:47.360 --> 0:00:51.360 guaranteed income of writing a monthly check to every American adult, 0:00:51.479 --> 0:00:55.520 no questions asked, remains a radical idea in many economic 0:00:55.560 --> 0:01:00.080 and political circles. We spoke with Stacia Martin West, a 0:01:00.080 --> 0:01:02.600 professor of social work at the University of Tennessee and 0:01:02.720 --> 0:01:06.160 co principal investigator with Amy Castor Baker of the University 0:01:06.200 --> 0:01:10.880 of Pennsylvania of the Stockton Economic Power Demonstration or SEED, 0:01:11.520 --> 0:01:15.400 one of the only active programs testing guaranteed income, also 0:01:15.440 --> 0:01:20.319 known as universal basic income on real Americans under the 0:01:20.400 --> 0:01:24.479 SEED program, and twenty five residents of Stockton, California were 0:01:24.480 --> 0:01:27.160 given a guaranteed income of five hundred dollars a month 0:01:27.240 --> 0:01:30.760 for eighteen months to see how this cash payment affected 0:01:30.800 --> 0:01:34.600 their lives. Researchers hoped to release SEEDS first round of 0:01:34.640 --> 0:01:41.240 findings in March. As Martin West explains, universal basic income 0:01:41.400 --> 0:01:45.600 holds tremendous promise for alleviating not only the financial burden 0:01:45.640 --> 0:01:49.120 of poverty, but also the damaging ripple effects of economic 0:01:49.160 --> 0:01:53.280 and security on health and family. Yet she admits that 0:01:53.360 --> 0:01:56.880 the very idea of a federal program paying poor Americans 0:01:56.960 --> 0:02:00.560 hundreds or even thousands of dollars a month faces tremendous 0:02:00.560 --> 0:02:04.000 political opposition, not only for its cost, but because of 0:02:04.040 --> 0:02:08.520 the pervasive, if unproven belief that free government handouts discourage 0:02:08.560 --> 0:02:13.639 people from working and foster dependence on the state if 0:02:13.680 --> 0:02:16.640 you're poor. In the United States, there already exists a 0:02:16.760 --> 0:02:20.640 safety net of both state and federal programs designed to 0:02:20.720 --> 0:02:24.640 help struggling individuals and families, but all of those programs 0:02:24.680 --> 0:02:28.560 are means tested, which means that they come with certain 0:02:28.600 --> 0:02:33.399 strings attached. To receive snap food benefits or housing assistance. 0:02:33.440 --> 0:02:36.120 For example, you need to prove that your income is 0:02:36.160 --> 0:02:40.160 below a certain threshold. To collect unemployment benefits, you need 0:02:40.200 --> 0:02:43.200 to show that you're actively looking for work. To collect 0:02:43.240 --> 0:02:46.040 Social Security retirement benefits, you have to have worked for 0:02:46.040 --> 0:02:49.800 a minimum number of years. And that's why universal basic 0:02:49.880 --> 0:02:54.320 income is such a radical departure from the existing welfare programs. 0:02:54.919 --> 0:02:59.560 There's no means testing or proof required to qualify. Under 0:02:59.639 --> 0:03:03.320 a UNI first basic income plan, every single American adult 0:03:03.360 --> 0:03:06.760 would receive a check maybe five hundred bucks, maybe a thousand, 0:03:06.840 --> 0:03:11.240 every month with absolutely no strings attached. Proponents of the 0:03:11.280 --> 0:03:15.080 idea sometimes think the money should be totally unconditional, leaving 0:03:15.080 --> 0:03:17.480 it up to the individual or family to decide how 0:03:17.520 --> 0:03:20.919 best to use it. In some countries, universal basic income 0:03:20.960 --> 0:03:24.239 grants are sometimes linked to recipients getting medical checkups or 0:03:24.360 --> 0:03:29.400 sending their kids to school. But if it's unconditional, recipients 0:03:29.440 --> 0:03:32.400 of universal basic income could use the extra money to 0:03:32.480 --> 0:03:35.840 pay for groceries, cover rent or mortgage, or buy clothes 0:03:35.880 --> 0:03:38.600 for the kids. They could also choose to enroll in 0:03:38.640 --> 0:03:41.960 an online class or job skills program, take time off 0:03:42.040 --> 0:03:44.200 to raise a baby or care for a sick parent, 0:03:44.720 --> 0:03:48.520 or invested in starting up a new business. Part of 0:03:48.520 --> 0:03:52.000 the idea that's right there in the name is basic income. 0:03:52.600 --> 0:03:55.200 Even at a thousand dollars a month or more, universal 0:03:55.240 --> 0:03:58.400 basic income would not fully replace earnings from a job, 0:03:58.800 --> 0:04:02.160 but it would provide a much needed cushion for the underpaid, 0:04:02.280 --> 0:04:06.800 overstressed workers who have never had the luxury of financial security. 0:04:07.480 --> 0:04:11.280 Martin West said, universal basic income is basic, and that 0:04:11.360 --> 0:04:15.000 it meets your basic needs, and it's guaranteed income, and 0:04:15.040 --> 0:04:20.039 that you know that it's coming. Andrew Yang popularized the 0:04:20.120 --> 0:04:23.000 notion of universal basic income to some extent during his 0:04:23.680 --> 0:04:27.640 presidential run. Yang pitched his thousand dollar a month freedom 0:04:27.720 --> 0:04:31.160 dividend as a way of protecting American workers from the 0:04:31.200 --> 0:04:34.680 impending robot takeover of millions of jobs over the next decade. 0:04:35.480 --> 0:04:39.239 While Martin West understands the concerns about automation and AI 0:04:39.400 --> 0:04:41.960 in the future, she feels there are plenty of other 0:04:42.120 --> 0:04:46.080 urgent reasons to implement a universal basic income plan today. 0:04:46.560 --> 0:04:49.400 She gave the example of the millions of Americans who 0:04:49.440 --> 0:04:53.360 work physically taxing gig jobs with unpredictable pay and hours 0:04:53.440 --> 0:04:57.640 and no benefits. She said, there are people dying from 0:04:57.680 --> 0:05:01.520 capitalism now. The inability to predict what your next paycheck 0:05:01.600 --> 0:05:03.680 is going to be from week to week or month 0:05:03.720 --> 0:05:07.040 to month has pretty devastating impacts on a person's stress 0:05:07.120 --> 0:05:11.760 levels and manifests, and poor health outcomes like cardiovascular health decline, 0:05:12.080 --> 0:05:17.560 increased rates of diabetes, and more. Stockton resident Thomas Vargas 0:05:17.640 --> 0:05:19.719 was one of those chosen to receive a five hundred 0:05:19.720 --> 0:05:23.600 dollar check every month through the Seed program. His shifts 0:05:23.600 --> 0:05:26.800 at a warehouse job were unpredictable, so Vargas had to 0:05:26.839 --> 0:05:29.279 work odd jobs late into the night to support a 0:05:29.320 --> 0:05:32.279 family he hardly had a chance to see. With the 0:05:32.320 --> 0:05:34.680 extra five hundred dollars, he was able to skip a 0:05:34.720 --> 0:05:37.080 shift at the warehouse and interview for a new job 0:05:37.160 --> 0:05:40.559 with better pay and fixed hours, freeing him to spend 0:05:40.600 --> 0:05:44.680 more time with his family. Proponents argue that this is 0:05:44.720 --> 0:05:48.440 one of the secondary effects of guaranteed income. A cushion 0:05:48.520 --> 0:05:51.719 of five hundred or a thousand dollars makes workers feel 0:05:51.839 --> 0:05:54.960 less desperate to take any job that comes along, even 0:05:55.000 --> 0:05:58.080 if the pay is bad and the working conditions are lousy. 0:05:58.400 --> 0:06:02.840 Martin West explained, nobody cares more about labor supply than 0:06:02.880 --> 0:06:05.839 these big companies that tend to not treat their employees 0:06:05.960 --> 0:06:08.960 very well. If you have employees saying I can do 0:06:09.040 --> 0:06:11.600 better than this, and now I have this bargaining power, 0:06:12.000 --> 0:06:17.240 then you may see improved working conditions by far. One 0:06:17.240 --> 0:06:20.039 of the biggest benefits of universal basic income is that 0:06:20.120 --> 0:06:23.120 it would provide a steady paycheck to people currently doing 0:06:23.200 --> 0:06:26.760 critical work for free, namely stay at home parents and 0:06:26.839 --> 0:06:30.400 other unpaid caregivers, who are far more likely to be women. 0:06:32.000 --> 0:06:35.440 The biggest criticism of universal basic income is how much 0:06:35.440 --> 0:06:39.440 it would cost. Under Yang's Freedom Dividend plan, each of 0:06:39.480 --> 0:06:42.440 America's two d and thirty six million adults would receive 0:06:42.600 --> 0:06:45.160 twelve thousand dollars a year, for a total of two 0:06:45.240 --> 0:06:48.359 point eight twillion dollars, which is more than half of 0:06:48.400 --> 0:06:53.360 the federal budget. Yang's plan allows older Americans the option 0:06:53.440 --> 0:06:57.080 of keeping their current Social Security and Medicare benefits, while 0:06:57.160 --> 0:07:00.719 other universal basic income proposals vow to replay the entire 0:07:00.800 --> 0:07:06.240 welfare state with one guaranteed monthly check. Even though some 0:07:06.279 --> 0:07:08.800 of the money could be offset by doing away with 0:07:08.880 --> 0:07:12.680 other entitlement programs, the federal government would have to raise 0:07:12.760 --> 0:07:17.400 taxes substantially to pay for universal basic income program. Some 0:07:17.520 --> 0:07:20.480 of those taxes would target the wealthiest one percent and 0:07:20.520 --> 0:07:23.920 the very technology companies that are making human workers obsolete, 0:07:24.320 --> 0:07:28.640 but regular Americans would get hit too. For example, Yang 0:07:28.680 --> 0:07:32.280 and others propose a value added tax of ten on 0:07:32.360 --> 0:07:37.080 all manufactured goods. Yang also thinks that his freedom dividend 0:07:37.120 --> 0:07:41.480 would produce more economic growth, therefore increasing the tax base, 0:07:42.080 --> 0:07:44.320 but of course we have no way of knowing whether 0:07:44.360 --> 0:07:48.680 that's how it would actually shake out. The supporters of 0:07:48.760 --> 0:07:53.120 universal basic income agree that a nationwide guaranteed income program 0:07:53.200 --> 0:07:56.680 would be enormously expensive, but they disagree that it's not 0:07:56.720 --> 0:08:00.760 worth the investment. Martin West said, like all the decisions 0:08:00.800 --> 0:08:03.560 this country makes, it really comes down to what is 0:08:03.560 --> 0:08:06.760 our priority. If our priority is to let people waste 0:08:06.760 --> 0:08:09.680 away in poverty, have ill health, have their work not 0:08:09.800 --> 0:08:13.560 be valued, then we won't prioritize a guaranteed income as 0:08:13.600 --> 0:08:16.200 part of our national budget. But if we do, in 0:08:16.280 --> 0:08:18.840 fact honor the social contract that we have in the 0:08:18.920 --> 0:08:22.360 United States, that means we should likely look at something 0:08:22.440 --> 0:08:27.360 like a universal basic income, which leads to the second 0:08:27.440 --> 0:08:31.560 and arguably more difficult obstacle to creating a national universal 0:08:31.560 --> 0:08:36.480 basic income program. The belief deeply held by many Americans 0:08:36.480 --> 0:08:39.800 that a guaranteed income is another form of government handout 0:08:39.960 --> 0:08:44.439 that encourages people not to work. There have only been 0:08:44.480 --> 0:08:47.959 a few real world studies so far on universal basic income. 0:08:48.559 --> 0:08:51.720 For instance, people involved in a trial in Finland reported 0:08:51.840 --> 0:08:54.760 less stress and the greater feelings of well being compared 0:08:54.800 --> 0:08:58.240 to people who didn't receive the extra cash, but they 0:08:58.280 --> 0:09:01.520 were not more likely to seek out employment, even though 0:09:01.760 --> 0:09:06.240 they wouldn't lose the benefit if they did. The truth 0:09:06.360 --> 0:09:09.360 is that we won't know if universal basic income plans 0:09:09.440 --> 0:09:13.640 work until there's more data from experiments like Seed and 0:09:13.760 --> 0:09:16.360 a half dozen more pilot programs being launched by a 0:09:16.400 --> 0:09:19.880 group called Mayors for a Guaranteed Income. We'll have to 0:09:19.920 --> 0:09:27.520 see how they turn out. Today's episode was written by 0:09:27.600 --> 0:09:30.000 Dave Ruse and produced by Tyler Clang. For more on 0:09:30.040 --> 0:09:32.840 this amounts of other topics, visit how Stuff work dot com. 0:09:32.920 --> 0:09:35.720 Brain Stuff is production of I Heart Radio or more podcasts. 0:09:35.720 --> 0:09:38.679 To my heart Radio visit the heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, 0:09:38.760 --> 0:09:40.560 or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.