1 00:00:01,920 --> 00:00:07,120 Speaker 1: Welcome to brain Stuff production of iHeart Radio, Hey brain Stuff, 2 00:00:07,160 --> 00:00:11,440 Speaker 1: Lauren Vogebam. Here near the end of Dr Martin Luther 3 00:00:11,520 --> 00:00:15,240 Speaker 1: King Jr's life, he turned his attention to fighting poverty. 4 00:00:15,880 --> 00:00:18,720 Speaker 1: He wrote, and where do we go from here? Chaos 5 00:00:18,800 --> 00:00:22,760 Speaker 1: or community quote, The simplest approach will prove to be 6 00:00:22,800 --> 00:00:26,239 Speaker 1: the most effective. The solution to poverty is to abolish 7 00:00:26,239 --> 00:00:31,200 Speaker 1: it directly by a now widely discussed measure, the guaranteed income. 8 00:00:32,800 --> 00:00:35,880 Speaker 1: Over half a century later, one in eight Americans, thirty 9 00:00:35,920 --> 00:00:39,000 Speaker 1: eight million people are still living below the poverty line, 10 00:00:39,040 --> 00:00:43,040 Speaker 1: according to the Census Bureau. Millions more jobs are threatened 11 00:00:43,040 --> 00:00:47,320 Speaker 1: by automation and artificial intelligence. Yet mL ka's notion of 12 00:00:47,360 --> 00:00:51,360 Speaker 1: guaranteed income of writing a monthly check to every American adult, 13 00:00:51,479 --> 00:00:55,520 Speaker 1: no questions asked, remains a radical idea in many economic 14 00:00:55,560 --> 00:01:00,080 Speaker 1: and political circles. We spoke with Stacia Martin West, a 15 00:01:00,080 --> 00:01:02,600 Speaker 1: professor of social work at the University of Tennessee and 16 00:01:02,720 --> 00:01:06,160 Speaker 1: co principal investigator with Amy Castor Baker of the University 17 00:01:06,200 --> 00:01:10,880 Speaker 1: of Pennsylvania of the Stockton Economic Power Demonstration or SEED, 18 00:01:11,520 --> 00:01:15,400 Speaker 1: one of the only active programs testing guaranteed income, also 19 00:01:15,440 --> 00:01:20,319 Speaker 1: known as universal basic income on real Americans under the 20 00:01:20,400 --> 00:01:24,479 Speaker 1: SEED program, and twenty five residents of Stockton, California were 21 00:01:24,480 --> 00:01:27,160 Speaker 1: given a guaranteed income of five hundred dollars a month 22 00:01:27,240 --> 00:01:30,760 Speaker 1: for eighteen months to see how this cash payment affected 23 00:01:30,800 --> 00:01:34,600 Speaker 1: their lives. Researchers hoped to release SEEDS first round of 24 00:01:34,640 --> 00:01:41,240 Speaker 1: findings in March. As Martin West explains, universal basic income 25 00:01:41,400 --> 00:01:45,600 Speaker 1: holds tremendous promise for alleviating not only the financial burden 26 00:01:45,640 --> 00:01:49,120 Speaker 1: of poverty, but also the damaging ripple effects of economic 27 00:01:49,160 --> 00:01:53,280 Speaker 1: and security on health and family. Yet she admits that 28 00:01:53,360 --> 00:01:56,880 Speaker 1: the very idea of a federal program paying poor Americans 29 00:01:56,960 --> 00:02:00,560 Speaker 1: hundreds or even thousands of dollars a month faces tremendous 30 00:02:00,560 --> 00:02:04,000 Speaker 1: political opposition, not only for its cost, but because of 31 00:02:04,040 --> 00:02:08,520 Speaker 1: the pervasive, if unproven belief that free government handouts discourage 32 00:02:08,560 --> 00:02:13,639 Speaker 1: people from working and foster dependence on the state if 33 00:02:13,680 --> 00:02:16,640 Speaker 1: you're poor. In the United States, there already exists a 34 00:02:16,760 --> 00:02:20,640 Speaker 1: safety net of both state and federal programs designed to 35 00:02:20,720 --> 00:02:24,640 Speaker 1: help struggling individuals and families, but all of those programs 36 00:02:24,680 --> 00:02:28,560 Speaker 1: are means tested, which means that they come with certain 37 00:02:28,600 --> 00:02:33,399 Speaker 1: strings attached. To receive snap food benefits or housing assistance. 38 00:02:33,440 --> 00:02:36,120 Speaker 1: For example, you need to prove that your income is 39 00:02:36,160 --> 00:02:40,160 Speaker 1: below a certain threshold. To collect unemployment benefits, you need 40 00:02:40,200 --> 00:02:43,200 Speaker 1: to show that you're actively looking for work. To collect 41 00:02:43,240 --> 00:02:46,040 Speaker 1: Social Security retirement benefits, you have to have worked for 42 00:02:46,040 --> 00:02:49,800 Speaker 1: a minimum number of years. And that's why universal basic 43 00:02:49,880 --> 00:02:54,320 Speaker 1: income is such a radical departure from the existing welfare programs. 44 00:02:54,919 --> 00:02:59,560 Speaker 1: There's no means testing or proof required to qualify. Under 45 00:02:59,639 --> 00:03:03,320 Speaker 1: a UNI first basic income plan, every single American adult 46 00:03:03,360 --> 00:03:06,760 Speaker 1: would receive a check maybe five hundred bucks, maybe a thousand, 47 00:03:06,840 --> 00:03:11,240 Speaker 1: every month with absolutely no strings attached. Proponents of the 48 00:03:11,280 --> 00:03:15,080 Speaker 1: idea sometimes think the money should be totally unconditional, leaving 49 00:03:15,080 --> 00:03:17,480 Speaker 1: it up to the individual or family to decide how 50 00:03:17,520 --> 00:03:20,919 Speaker 1: best to use it. In some countries, universal basic income 51 00:03:20,960 --> 00:03:24,239 Speaker 1: grants are sometimes linked to recipients getting medical checkups or 52 00:03:24,360 --> 00:03:29,400 Speaker 1: sending their kids to school. But if it's unconditional, recipients 53 00:03:29,440 --> 00:03:32,400 Speaker 1: of universal basic income could use the extra money to 54 00:03:32,480 --> 00:03:35,840 Speaker 1: pay for groceries, cover rent or mortgage, or buy clothes 55 00:03:35,880 --> 00:03:38,600 Speaker 1: for the kids. They could also choose to enroll in 56 00:03:38,640 --> 00:03:41,960 Speaker 1: an online class or job skills program, take time off 57 00:03:42,040 --> 00:03:44,200 Speaker 1: to raise a baby or care for a sick parent, 58 00:03:44,720 --> 00:03:48,520 Speaker 1: or invested in starting up a new business. Part of 59 00:03:48,520 --> 00:03:52,000 Speaker 1: the idea that's right there in the name is basic income. 60 00:03:52,600 --> 00:03:55,200 Speaker 1: Even at a thousand dollars a month or more, universal 61 00:03:55,240 --> 00:03:58,400 Speaker 1: basic income would not fully replace earnings from a job, 62 00:03:58,800 --> 00:04:02,160 Speaker 1: but it would provide a much needed cushion for the underpaid, 63 00:04:02,280 --> 00:04:06,800 Speaker 1: overstressed workers who have never had the luxury of financial security. 64 00:04:07,480 --> 00:04:11,280 Speaker 1: Martin West said, universal basic income is basic, and that 65 00:04:11,360 --> 00:04:15,000 Speaker 1: it meets your basic needs, and it's guaranteed income, and 66 00:04:15,040 --> 00:04:20,039 Speaker 1: that you know that it's coming. Andrew Yang popularized the 67 00:04:20,120 --> 00:04:23,000 Speaker 1: notion of universal basic income to some extent during his 68 00:04:23,680 --> 00:04:27,640 Speaker 1: presidential run. Yang pitched his thousand dollar a month freedom 69 00:04:27,720 --> 00:04:31,160 Speaker 1: dividend as a way of protecting American workers from the 70 00:04:31,200 --> 00:04:34,680 Speaker 1: impending robot takeover of millions of jobs over the next decade. 71 00:04:35,480 --> 00:04:39,239 Speaker 1: While Martin West understands the concerns about automation and AI 72 00:04:39,400 --> 00:04:41,960 Speaker 1: in the future, she feels there are plenty of other 73 00:04:42,120 --> 00:04:46,080 Speaker 1: urgent reasons to implement a universal basic income plan today. 74 00:04:46,560 --> 00:04:49,400 Speaker 1: She gave the example of the millions of Americans who 75 00:04:49,440 --> 00:04:53,360 Speaker 1: work physically taxing gig jobs with unpredictable pay and hours 76 00:04:53,440 --> 00:04:57,640 Speaker 1: and no benefits. She said, there are people dying from 77 00:04:57,680 --> 00:05:01,520 Speaker 1: capitalism now. The inability to predict what your next paycheck 78 00:05:01,600 --> 00:05:03,680 Speaker 1: is going to be from week to week or month 79 00:05:03,720 --> 00:05:07,040 Speaker 1: to month has pretty devastating impacts on a person's stress 80 00:05:07,120 --> 00:05:11,760 Speaker 1: levels and manifests, and poor health outcomes like cardiovascular health decline, 81 00:05:12,080 --> 00:05:17,560 Speaker 1: increased rates of diabetes, and more. Stockton resident Thomas Vargas 82 00:05:17,640 --> 00:05:19,719 Speaker 1: was one of those chosen to receive a five hundred 83 00:05:19,720 --> 00:05:23,600 Speaker 1: dollar check every month through the Seed program. His shifts 84 00:05:23,600 --> 00:05:26,800 Speaker 1: at a warehouse job were unpredictable, so Vargas had to 85 00:05:26,839 --> 00:05:29,279 Speaker 1: work odd jobs late into the night to support a 86 00:05:29,320 --> 00:05:32,279 Speaker 1: family he hardly had a chance to see. With the 87 00:05:32,320 --> 00:05:34,680 Speaker 1: extra five hundred dollars, he was able to skip a 88 00:05:34,720 --> 00:05:37,080 Speaker 1: shift at the warehouse and interview for a new job 89 00:05:37,160 --> 00:05:40,559 Speaker 1: with better pay and fixed hours, freeing him to spend 90 00:05:40,600 --> 00:05:44,680 Speaker 1: more time with his family. Proponents argue that this is 91 00:05:44,720 --> 00:05:48,440 Speaker 1: one of the secondary effects of guaranteed income. A cushion 92 00:05:48,520 --> 00:05:51,719 Speaker 1: of five hundred or a thousand dollars makes workers feel 93 00:05:51,839 --> 00:05:54,960 Speaker 1: less desperate to take any job that comes along, even 94 00:05:55,000 --> 00:05:58,080 Speaker 1: if the pay is bad and the working conditions are lousy. 95 00:05:58,400 --> 00:06:02,840 Speaker 1: Martin West explained, nobody cares more about labor supply than 96 00:06:02,880 --> 00:06:05,839 Speaker 1: these big companies that tend to not treat their employees 97 00:06:05,960 --> 00:06:08,960 Speaker 1: very well. If you have employees saying I can do 98 00:06:09,040 --> 00:06:11,600 Speaker 1: better than this, and now I have this bargaining power, 99 00:06:12,000 --> 00:06:17,240 Speaker 1: then you may see improved working conditions by far. One 100 00:06:17,240 --> 00:06:20,039 Speaker 1: of the biggest benefits of universal basic income is that 101 00:06:20,120 --> 00:06:23,120 Speaker 1: it would provide a steady paycheck to people currently doing 102 00:06:23,200 --> 00:06:26,760 Speaker 1: critical work for free, namely stay at home parents and 103 00:06:26,839 --> 00:06:30,400 Speaker 1: other unpaid caregivers, who are far more likely to be women. 104 00:06:32,000 --> 00:06:35,440 Speaker 1: The biggest criticism of universal basic income is how much 105 00:06:35,440 --> 00:06:39,440 Speaker 1: it would cost. Under Yang's Freedom Dividend plan, each of 106 00:06:39,480 --> 00:06:42,440 Speaker 1: America's two d and thirty six million adults would receive 107 00:06:42,600 --> 00:06:45,160 Speaker 1: twelve thousand dollars a year, for a total of two 108 00:06:45,240 --> 00:06:48,359 Speaker 1: point eight twillion dollars, which is more than half of 109 00:06:48,400 --> 00:06:53,360 Speaker 1: the federal budget. Yang's plan allows older Americans the option 110 00:06:53,440 --> 00:06:57,080 Speaker 1: of keeping their current Social Security and Medicare benefits, while 111 00:06:57,160 --> 00:07:00,719 Speaker 1: other universal basic income proposals vow to replay the entire 112 00:07:00,800 --> 00:07:06,240 Speaker 1: welfare state with one guaranteed monthly check. Even though some 113 00:07:06,279 --> 00:07:08,800 Speaker 1: of the money could be offset by doing away with 114 00:07:08,880 --> 00:07:12,680 Speaker 1: other entitlement programs, the federal government would have to raise 115 00:07:12,760 --> 00:07:17,400 Speaker 1: taxes substantially to pay for universal basic income program. Some 116 00:07:17,520 --> 00:07:20,480 Speaker 1: of those taxes would target the wealthiest one percent and 117 00:07:20,520 --> 00:07:23,920 Speaker 1: the very technology companies that are making human workers obsolete, 118 00:07:24,320 --> 00:07:28,640 Speaker 1: but regular Americans would get hit too. For example, Yang 119 00:07:28,680 --> 00:07:32,280 Speaker 1: and others propose a value added tax of ten on 120 00:07:32,360 --> 00:07:37,080 Speaker 1: all manufactured goods. Yang also thinks that his freedom dividend 121 00:07:37,120 --> 00:07:41,480 Speaker 1: would produce more economic growth, therefore increasing the tax base, 122 00:07:42,080 --> 00:07:44,320 Speaker 1: but of course we have no way of knowing whether 123 00:07:44,360 --> 00:07:48,680 Speaker 1: that's how it would actually shake out. The supporters of 124 00:07:48,760 --> 00:07:53,120 Speaker 1: universal basic income agree that a nationwide guaranteed income program 125 00:07:53,200 --> 00:07:56,680 Speaker 1: would be enormously expensive, but they disagree that it's not 126 00:07:56,720 --> 00:08:00,760 Speaker 1: worth the investment. Martin West said, like all the decisions 127 00:08:00,800 --> 00:08:03,560 Speaker 1: this country makes, it really comes down to what is 128 00:08:03,560 --> 00:08:06,760 Speaker 1: our priority. If our priority is to let people waste 129 00:08:06,760 --> 00:08:09,680 Speaker 1: away in poverty, have ill health, have their work not 130 00:08:09,800 --> 00:08:13,560 Speaker 1: be valued, then we won't prioritize a guaranteed income as 131 00:08:13,600 --> 00:08:16,200 Speaker 1: part of our national budget. But if we do, in 132 00:08:16,280 --> 00:08:18,840 Speaker 1: fact honor the social contract that we have in the 133 00:08:18,920 --> 00:08:22,360 Speaker 1: United States, that means we should likely look at something 134 00:08:22,440 --> 00:08:27,360 Speaker 1: like a universal basic income, which leads to the second 135 00:08:27,440 --> 00:08:31,560 Speaker 1: and arguably more difficult obstacle to creating a national universal 136 00:08:31,560 --> 00:08:36,480 Speaker 1: basic income program. The belief deeply held by many Americans 137 00:08:36,480 --> 00:08:39,800 Speaker 1: that a guaranteed income is another form of government handout 138 00:08:39,960 --> 00:08:44,439 Speaker 1: that encourages people not to work. There have only been 139 00:08:44,480 --> 00:08:47,959 Speaker 1: a few real world studies so far on universal basic income. 140 00:08:48,559 --> 00:08:51,720 Speaker 1: For instance, people involved in a trial in Finland reported 141 00:08:51,840 --> 00:08:54,760 Speaker 1: less stress and the greater feelings of well being compared 142 00:08:54,800 --> 00:08:58,240 Speaker 1: to people who didn't receive the extra cash, but they 143 00:08:58,280 --> 00:09:01,520 Speaker 1: were not more likely to seek out employment, even though 144 00:09:01,760 --> 00:09:06,240 Speaker 1: they wouldn't lose the benefit if they did. The truth 145 00:09:06,360 --> 00:09:09,360 Speaker 1: is that we won't know if universal basic income plans 146 00:09:09,440 --> 00:09:13,640 Speaker 1: work until there's more data from experiments like Seed and 147 00:09:13,760 --> 00:09:16,360 Speaker 1: a half dozen more pilot programs being launched by a 148 00:09:16,400 --> 00:09:19,880 Speaker 1: group called Mayors for a Guaranteed Income. We'll have to 149 00:09:19,920 --> 00:09:27,520 Speaker 1: see how they turn out. Today's episode was written by 150 00:09:27,600 --> 00:09:30,000 Speaker 1: Dave Ruse and produced by Tyler Clang. For more on 151 00:09:30,040 --> 00:09:32,840 Speaker 1: this amounts of other topics, visit how Stuff work dot com. 152 00:09:32,920 --> 00:09:35,720 Speaker 1: Brain Stuff is production of I Heart Radio or more podcasts. 153 00:09:35,720 --> 00:09:38,679 Speaker 1: To my heart Radio visit the heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, 154 00:09:38,760 --> 00:09:40,560 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.