1 00:00:02,120 --> 00:00:06,600 Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome back to Drilled. I'm Amy Westervelt. Today 2 00:00:06,640 --> 00:00:08,920 Speaker 1: I have with me the co host of a new 3 00:00:08,960 --> 00:00:13,920 Speaker 1: podcast called Fuel to Fork, Anna la Pey and Matthew Kessler. 4 00:00:14,160 --> 00:00:17,040 Speaker 1: And I wanted to have them on because their podcast 5 00:00:17,320 --> 00:00:21,000 Speaker 1: talks about an issue that does not get enough attention, 6 00:00:21,239 --> 00:00:24,840 Speaker 1: and that is the connection between food and climate change. 7 00:00:24,920 --> 00:00:28,920 Speaker 1: And I don't just mean meat and climate change. I 8 00:00:28,960 --> 00:00:32,199 Speaker 1: mean the entire food system, how we grow food, how 9 00:00:32,240 --> 00:00:35,880 Speaker 1: we produce and ranch meat, how we ship things around, 10 00:00:35,920 --> 00:00:38,920 Speaker 1: how we package things, and the direct connection between that 11 00:00:39,120 --> 00:00:43,279 Speaker 1: and the fossil fuel industry, and also emissions. Something that 12 00:00:43,320 --> 00:00:46,960 Speaker 1: came up a lot in our conversation was how emissions 13 00:00:47,000 --> 00:00:49,800 Speaker 1: sometimes get talked about with respect to the food system, 14 00:00:49,960 --> 00:00:52,640 Speaker 1: but we don't talk enough about inputs. And by that 15 00:00:52,720 --> 00:00:56,080 Speaker 1: I mean fertilizers and herbicides, many of which are made 16 00:00:56,120 --> 00:01:01,200 Speaker 1: with petrochemicals. I mean packaging, which is most made of plastic, 17 00:01:01,320 --> 00:01:04,319 Speaker 1: which again is made from either petroleum or from a 18 00:01:04,480 --> 00:01:08,720 Speaker 1: byproduct of the natural gas refining process. There are lots 19 00:01:08,720 --> 00:01:12,080 Speaker 1: of other examples too that both Matthew and I get into, 20 00:01:12,560 --> 00:01:15,160 Speaker 1: along with all kinds of other things. It was a 21 00:01:15,200 --> 00:01:17,640 Speaker 1: fascinating conversation I learned a lot, and I hope you 22 00:01:17,680 --> 00:01:22,040 Speaker 1: will too. That's coming up after this quick break. 23 00:01:28,160 --> 00:01:31,000 Speaker 2: I'm Anna Lape. I'm the executive director of the Global 24 00:01:31,040 --> 00:01:32,480 Speaker 2: Alliance for the Future of Food. 25 00:01:32,920 --> 00:01:36,720 Speaker 3: I'm Matthew Kessler. I'm a podcaster and science communicator at 26 00:01:36,840 --> 00:01:41,040 Speaker 3: Table based at the Swedish University of Agricultural Sciences. 27 00:01:41,080 --> 00:01:46,200 Speaker 1: Awesome, what a cool job, Matthew. 28 00:01:46,959 --> 00:01:49,720 Speaker 3: The title is a little bit made up. 29 00:01:52,800 --> 00:01:55,120 Speaker 1: Okay, So I want to first have you guys kind 30 00:01:55,120 --> 00:01:58,560 Speaker 1: of introduced this podcast project that you've been working on 31 00:01:58,720 --> 00:02:00,760 Speaker 1: and tell us a little bit about, well, you know 32 00:02:00,800 --> 00:02:03,080 Speaker 1: what it is and what you've been looking into. 33 00:02:03,760 --> 00:02:06,160 Speaker 3: The way I described the podcast to people is the 34 00:02:06,160 --> 00:02:09,000 Speaker 3: same way we open the series, which is with me 35 00:02:09,240 --> 00:02:11,959 Speaker 3: going to the store grabbing a bag of potato chips. 36 00:02:12,760 --> 00:02:15,560 Speaker 3: I have this craving and ten minutes later, I have 37 00:02:15,600 --> 00:02:17,440 Speaker 3: a beg of potato chips in my hand. It's this 38 00:02:18,040 --> 00:02:22,680 Speaker 3: frictionless experience. Now, if you think about that experience from 39 00:02:22,720 --> 00:02:25,079 Speaker 3: the bag of potato chips is a very different, more 40 00:02:25,120 --> 00:02:28,880 Speaker 3: complicated story. So we try to trace that by saying 41 00:02:29,440 --> 00:02:32,919 Speaker 3: there's a lot of industrial machinery and equipment that went 42 00:02:32,960 --> 00:02:35,280 Speaker 3: into bringing that beg of potato chips to the store, 43 00:02:35,880 --> 00:02:41,040 Speaker 3: starting with the tractors that prepare the soil, the fertilizers, 44 00:02:41,080 --> 00:02:46,040 Speaker 3: fungicides and secticides that are sprayed on the crops, the 45 00:02:46,080 --> 00:02:50,240 Speaker 3: extensive irrigation systems. Then the crop is harvested, brought to 46 00:02:50,280 --> 00:02:55,280 Speaker 3: the store where it is washed, sorted, sealed, and sliced 47 00:02:55,520 --> 00:02:59,360 Speaker 3: and then fried in oil. The potatoes are then shipped 48 00:02:59,360 --> 00:03:02,880 Speaker 3: to the store and packed in plastic bags. So at 49 00:03:03,000 --> 00:03:07,040 Speaker 3: each part of this process, fossil fuels are powering everything. 50 00:03:07,520 --> 00:03:10,799 Speaker 3: And what the series does it explores, at each part 51 00:03:10,800 --> 00:03:13,720 Speaker 3: of the supply chain, where fossil fuels are in our 52 00:03:13,760 --> 00:03:16,720 Speaker 3: food and what are the options to phase them out, 53 00:03:16,919 --> 00:03:19,079 Speaker 3: and what are the powerful forces standing in the way. 54 00:03:20,040 --> 00:03:23,200 Speaker 1: That's so interesting because I so, I moved to Costa 55 00:03:23,280 --> 00:03:26,600 Speaker 1: Rica almost three years ago, and everyone asks me if 56 00:03:26,639 --> 00:03:30,359 Speaker 1: I miss the US, and my answer is always like, no, 57 00:03:30,400 --> 00:03:32,760 Speaker 1: not really. The only thing I occasionally miss is the 58 00:03:32,880 --> 00:03:40,080 Speaker 1: extremely frictionless capitalism. 59 00:03:40,520 --> 00:03:43,560 Speaker 2: Frictionless capitalism that got us into this mess. So I know, 60 00:03:43,920 --> 00:03:46,160 Speaker 2: I know, it's terrible. It's a terrible thing. 61 00:03:46,800 --> 00:03:47,360 Speaker 1: Yeah. 62 00:03:47,440 --> 00:03:50,520 Speaker 3: When I spoke to a bunch of people for this series, right, 63 00:03:50,800 --> 00:03:54,240 Speaker 3: we were talking about Mars bars or Snickers, and like 64 00:03:54,360 --> 00:03:57,080 Speaker 3: we're talking about, Yeah, there really isn't a fossil free 65 00:03:57,120 --> 00:03:59,400 Speaker 3: alternative for them, And whenever we talked about it, we 66 00:03:59,440 --> 00:04:01,119 Speaker 3: would still have craving and be like, I'm a little 67 00:04:01,160 --> 00:04:02,160 Speaker 3: hungry for that right now. 68 00:04:03,920 --> 00:04:08,160 Speaker 2: Oh god, Yeah, it's it's tough, Okay. 69 00:04:08,240 --> 00:04:12,480 Speaker 1: So I love that you're looking at where fossil fuels 70 00:04:12,960 --> 00:04:17,440 Speaker 1: comes into this, because I feel like, you know, people 71 00:04:17,440 --> 00:04:20,560 Speaker 1: have started to sort of cotton on to the fact that, oh, 72 00:04:20,920 --> 00:04:24,880 Speaker 1: fossil fuels are deeply involved in the plastics problem and 73 00:04:24,920 --> 00:04:29,080 Speaker 1: even in the fast fashion problem, with the way that 74 00:04:29,120 --> 00:04:33,040 Speaker 1: petrochemicals are used in synthetic fabrics and all that kind 75 00:04:33,080 --> 00:04:36,479 Speaker 1: of stuff. But for some reason, I feel like people 76 00:04:36,520 --> 00:04:39,080 Speaker 1: have been a little bit resistant to connecting the dots 77 00:04:39,120 --> 00:04:41,120 Speaker 1: on food And I wonder what you think about that, 78 00:04:41,240 --> 00:04:42,760 Speaker 1: and you know why that might be. 79 00:04:43,680 --> 00:04:46,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's a great question, Amy, and probably 80 00:04:46,200 --> 00:04:48,480 Speaker 2: would not surprise you to hear that it's the question 81 00:04:48,560 --> 00:04:51,320 Speaker 2: I've been thinking a lot about for many, many years. 82 00:04:51,400 --> 00:04:53,880 Speaker 2: So you know, I came into this work very much 83 00:04:54,320 --> 00:04:59,400 Speaker 2: thinking about how and really concerned about how much our 84 00:04:59,400 --> 00:05:05,320 Speaker 2: food system impacts our health, environment, biodiversity, and about fifteen 85 00:05:05,400 --> 00:05:07,560 Speaker 2: years ago really starting to wake up to how much 86 00:05:07,600 --> 00:05:11,159 Speaker 2: our food system is complicit in the climate crisis, and 87 00:05:12,360 --> 00:05:16,040 Speaker 2: noticing that even though we know food systems drive about 88 00:05:16,080 --> 00:05:19,800 Speaker 2: a third of all the climate impact, there's certainly been 89 00:05:20,160 --> 00:05:23,280 Speaker 2: much less conversation about how do we think about what 90 00:05:23,320 --> 00:05:24,960 Speaker 2: do we need to do to change our food system 91 00:05:25,040 --> 00:05:28,159 Speaker 2: to actually have it not be such a driver of 92 00:05:28,200 --> 00:05:30,960 Speaker 2: the crisis and also be much more resilient to what 93 00:05:31,000 --> 00:05:35,560 Speaker 2: we know is our reality more extreme weather shocks. And 94 00:05:35,640 --> 00:05:40,240 Speaker 2: I think it's this intersection between our food and fossil fuels. 95 00:05:40,600 --> 00:05:42,320 Speaker 2: I think it's not so much that people have been 96 00:05:42,400 --> 00:05:46,880 Speaker 2: kind of resistant people. I mean that really broadly from 97 00:05:46,920 --> 00:05:51,680 Speaker 2: policymakers to advocates to just everyday eaters. It's not so 98 00:05:51,760 --> 00:05:56,680 Speaker 2: much that I think people are resistant to making those linkages. 99 00:05:56,760 --> 00:06:00,560 Speaker 2: It's that two things. One those linkages are just not 100 00:06:00,680 --> 00:06:03,479 Speaker 2: as explicit and obvious. Is when you get into a 101 00:06:03,720 --> 00:06:06,880 Speaker 2: gas fueled car, you feel it, you see it, you 102 00:06:06,920 --> 00:06:09,040 Speaker 2: go to the gas station, you smell it, you get 103 00:06:09,080 --> 00:06:13,120 Speaker 2: an airplane, you also know it. Food it's much more 104 00:06:13,279 --> 00:06:17,680 Speaker 2: hidden from us, And so that's part of it, I think, 105 00:06:17,839 --> 00:06:22,520 Speaker 2: and the industry has been really strategic about trying to 106 00:06:22,680 --> 00:06:27,800 Speaker 2: downplay the connections between our food and fossil fuels, and 107 00:06:28,120 --> 00:06:32,279 Speaker 2: you have entire sectors like the synthetic fertilizer industry, which 108 00:06:32,680 --> 00:06:37,080 Speaker 2: is heavily dependent on natural gas, and some places nitrogen 109 00:06:37,080 --> 00:06:40,359 Speaker 2: fertilizers are made with coal fired power plants. But that 110 00:06:40,560 --> 00:06:45,400 Speaker 2: entire industry has spent so much time and money to 111 00:06:45,560 --> 00:06:49,680 Speaker 2: paint itself not as a branch of the fossil fuel tree, 112 00:06:49,720 --> 00:06:54,240 Speaker 2: but as you know, a source of nourishment, the foundations 113 00:06:54,279 --> 00:06:57,200 Speaker 2: on which we feed the world, you know, really kind 114 00:06:57,200 --> 00:07:01,240 Speaker 2: of the vast green fields that look so natural. So 115 00:07:01,560 --> 00:07:08,200 Speaker 2: it's both a kind of pr strategic narrative frame coming 116 00:07:08,240 --> 00:07:13,160 Speaker 2: out of industrial agriculture players, and it's that for those 117 00:07:13,200 --> 00:07:16,440 Speaker 2: of us who care about these issues, these linkages are 118 00:07:16,480 --> 00:07:21,360 Speaker 2: just much more hidden, complex, not as blatantly obvious. 119 00:07:21,920 --> 00:07:27,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I know that that they're you know, in 120 00:07:28,160 --> 00:07:32,080 Speaker 1: some ways, the fossil fuel companies are really super directly 121 00:07:32,120 --> 00:07:37,960 Speaker 1: involved in ag chemicals in particular, is there like I know, 122 00:07:38,040 --> 00:07:41,320 Speaker 1: in the in the plastics realm, they started to talk 123 00:07:41,840 --> 00:07:44,520 Speaker 1: maybe maybe even like as early as ten years ago 124 00:07:44,640 --> 00:07:49,840 Speaker 1: about really sort of investing more in petrochemicals and particularly 125 00:07:50,280 --> 00:07:54,160 Speaker 1: petrochemicals related to plastics as sort of a way to 126 00:07:54,200 --> 00:07:57,440 Speaker 1: deal with the fact that fossil fuel use was going 127 00:07:57,480 --> 00:08:02,640 Speaker 1: down in transportation and residential usage. Have you seen a 128 00:08:02,720 --> 00:08:07,520 Speaker 1: similar trend in in sort of the food and ag realm? 129 00:08:07,760 --> 00:08:11,560 Speaker 1: And you know where where is the fossil fuel industry 130 00:08:11,600 --> 00:08:14,200 Speaker 1: in particular sort of concentrating its efforts. 131 00:08:15,440 --> 00:08:21,119 Speaker 3: Yeah, so, surprisingly and alarmingly, food is in the wrong 132 00:08:21,160 --> 00:08:25,000 Speaker 3: direction in almost each place you look. You know, the 133 00:08:26,520 --> 00:08:28,880 Speaker 3: work that the Global Lines for the Future of Food 134 00:08:28,920 --> 00:08:31,360 Speaker 3: did on the power Ship report sort of began to 135 00:08:31,360 --> 00:08:35,080 Speaker 3: put some numbers to where fossil fuels are in our 136 00:08:35,120 --> 00:08:38,640 Speaker 3: food And first of all, it's fifteen percent of all 137 00:08:38,679 --> 00:08:41,880 Speaker 3: the fossil fuels burned are used to power our current 138 00:08:41,880 --> 00:08:44,720 Speaker 3: food system, which was a higher number than I thought. 139 00:08:44,760 --> 00:08:54,800 Speaker 3: And it's also rising and specifically nitrogen fertilizers, plastics and 140 00:08:55,200 --> 00:09:00,000 Speaker 3: processing are the biggest growth areas. Oil and petrochemical common 141 00:09:00,040 --> 00:09:03,760 Speaker 3: bodies are really seeing a huge market here in food. 142 00:09:04,480 --> 00:09:07,520 Speaker 2: One of the things that I and many of us 143 00:09:07,520 --> 00:09:11,559 Speaker 2: have been kind of tracking is you mentioned in your 144 00:09:11,640 --> 00:09:15,239 Speaker 2: question Amy, you know, sort of the growth of plastics 145 00:09:15,640 --> 00:09:20,199 Speaker 2: and the petrochemical industry really investing so much in plastics 146 00:09:20,240 --> 00:09:24,599 Speaker 2: as a huge growth area for the industry, and a 147 00:09:24,679 --> 00:09:29,000 Speaker 2: number of years ago, I started noticing kind of similar 148 00:09:29,640 --> 00:09:34,120 Speaker 2: trends in terms of the oil and gas industry, seeing 149 00:09:34,200 --> 00:09:37,760 Speaker 2: other what folks often call these escape patches. So as 150 00:09:37,800 --> 00:09:42,199 Speaker 2: we hopefully continue to put pressure on the industry continue 151 00:09:42,240 --> 00:09:47,160 Speaker 2: to do things like scale up electrification of our built 152 00:09:47,240 --> 00:09:52,520 Speaker 2: environment or transportation, industries looking for where else can they grow, 153 00:09:52,679 --> 00:09:58,240 Speaker 2: and so we're seeing an expansion in plastics, for instance, 154 00:09:58,280 --> 00:10:01,320 Speaker 2: but also in where alsil fuels show up in food 155 00:10:01,640 --> 00:10:04,560 Speaker 2: and so a number of years ago I reached out 156 00:10:04,600 --> 00:10:08,400 Speaker 2: to colleagues at the Center for International Environmental Law with 157 00:10:08,440 --> 00:10:11,200 Speaker 2: this question of you know, what do we know about 158 00:10:11,200 --> 00:10:16,679 Speaker 2: this trajectory and how much is industry really investing in agrochemicals, 159 00:10:16,679 --> 00:10:22,520 Speaker 2: so that's synthetic fertilizers and pesticides as this escape patch 160 00:10:22,679 --> 00:10:27,400 Speaker 2: for their companies, And the Center for International Environmental Law 161 00:10:27,440 --> 00:10:31,679 Speaker 2: produced a report called Fossils, Fertilizers and False Solutions, And 162 00:10:31,760 --> 00:10:34,360 Speaker 2: what they really tell in that report is a story 163 00:10:34,440 --> 00:10:39,440 Speaker 2: of what could be really skyrocketing growth. So we're seeing 164 00:10:39,800 --> 00:10:43,559 Speaker 2: growth and nitrogen fertilizers, which again are really heavily energy intensive. 165 00:10:44,360 --> 00:10:48,760 Speaker 2: We're seeing as more and more commercial food markets move 166 00:10:48,840 --> 00:10:54,040 Speaker 2: toward more process foods, which involve of course energy along 167 00:10:54,200 --> 00:10:59,240 Speaker 2: the production chain, but also packaging, plastics, packaging, et cetera. 168 00:10:59,360 --> 00:11:03,480 Speaker 2: We're seeing growth there. We're even seeing growth in things 169 00:11:03,520 --> 00:11:07,960 Speaker 2: that are just completely boggling the mind when we think 170 00:11:08,000 --> 00:11:10,200 Speaker 2: about what direction we need to go. So growth of 171 00:11:10,240 --> 00:11:16,959 Speaker 2: things like microplastics being added to pesticides and fertilizers as 172 00:11:17,000 --> 00:11:21,360 Speaker 2: a coating and industry pushing that product as a kind 173 00:11:21,360 --> 00:11:26,200 Speaker 2: of sustainability mechanism. So if you coat pesticides and coat 174 00:11:26,280 --> 00:11:30,640 Speaker 2: fertilizers and microplastics, they kind of slow release. But that's 175 00:11:31,320 --> 00:11:33,679 Speaker 2: absolutely bonkers to me, the idea that we would be 176 00:11:34,040 --> 00:11:39,360 Speaker 2: intentionally adding microplastics into our environment. But again, this is 177 00:11:39,440 --> 00:11:43,480 Speaker 2: all about an industry seeking new product lines, new regions 178 00:11:43,520 --> 00:11:47,760 Speaker 2: to grow, and all of it is about trying to 179 00:11:47,800 --> 00:11:50,760 Speaker 2: continue to grow when there's real pressure as we know 180 00:11:51,280 --> 00:11:55,040 Speaker 2: because of the climate crisis to phase out fossil fuels 181 00:11:55,040 --> 00:11:56,559 Speaker 2: across our economy. 182 00:11:57,200 --> 00:12:00,440 Speaker 3: One statistic I like to highlight from the Power Shift 183 00:12:00,800 --> 00:12:04,120 Speaker 3: was that forty two percent of fossil fuels are in 184 00:12:04,200 --> 00:12:08,360 Speaker 3: processing and packaging. So they were looking at plastics across 185 00:12:08,360 --> 00:12:13,520 Speaker 3: the supply chain and the rise of ultraprocessed foods. So 186 00:12:13,600 --> 00:12:17,760 Speaker 3: that to me, I'm ultra processed foods take anywhere from 187 00:12:17,800 --> 00:12:21,560 Speaker 3: two to ten times more energy to produce than your 188 00:12:21,679 --> 00:12:26,440 Speaker 3: regular whole foods. So I think the really kind of 189 00:12:27,480 --> 00:12:29,840 Speaker 3: you know, we've heard a lot about ultra processed foods 190 00:12:30,000 --> 00:12:34,800 Speaker 3: and the different health impacts that can have a little 191 00:12:34,800 --> 00:12:37,559 Speaker 3: bit on the environmental impacts, but for me, this number 192 00:12:37,640 --> 00:12:42,119 Speaker 3: just really cemented. Wow, there's a huge fossil fuel footprint 193 00:12:42,360 --> 00:12:44,160 Speaker 3: in eating these types of foods. 194 00:12:44,600 --> 00:12:48,160 Speaker 1: Can you give some examples of ultraprocessed foods for folks? 195 00:12:48,440 --> 00:12:51,160 Speaker 3: Yeah, So it's anywhere from that bag of potato chips 196 00:12:51,160 --> 00:12:55,120 Speaker 3: that I mentioned earlier, all the way to a loaf 197 00:12:55,160 --> 00:13:01,760 Speaker 3: of bread, to flavored yogurt, to tofu and plant based 198 00:13:01,760 --> 00:13:04,640 Speaker 3: meat substitutes. So there's really like a range, and there's 199 00:13:04,679 --> 00:13:07,839 Speaker 3: a lot of research and ways of categorizing these different 200 00:13:07,880 --> 00:13:12,160 Speaker 3: ultra processed foods from this kind of the degree of processing. 201 00:13:12,640 --> 00:13:15,680 Speaker 3: But I think, you know, it's almost intuitive the ones 202 00:13:15,720 --> 00:13:17,960 Speaker 3: that are these kind of ultra process ones, the ones 203 00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:22,680 Speaker 3: that have these you know, specific additives preservatives put into 204 00:13:22,679 --> 00:13:25,760 Speaker 3: the food, the colors, the dyes, the ones that you know, 205 00:13:25,840 --> 00:13:27,960 Speaker 3: you you put in your mouth and you're like, oh, 206 00:13:28,040 --> 00:13:31,280 Speaker 3: I want more immediately. Well that's because they've been engineered 207 00:13:31,280 --> 00:13:34,360 Speaker 3: to you know, bring that specific craving to you. 208 00:13:34,800 --> 00:13:39,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, Okay, we've mentioned nitrogen a couple of times already, 209 00:13:39,760 --> 00:13:43,760 Speaker 1: and I want to dig into this comment you made 210 00:13:44,080 --> 00:13:47,719 Speaker 1: quickly earlier an about how you know some of these 211 00:13:47,720 --> 00:13:50,600 Speaker 1: fertilizers are connected to col fire power plants, because I 212 00:13:50,640 --> 00:13:55,319 Speaker 1: don't think people necessarily understand that. So I'd love to 213 00:13:55,720 --> 00:14:02,000 Speaker 1: have you guys unpack the connection between nitrogen fertilizeds and coal. 214 00:14:02,240 --> 00:14:05,080 Speaker 1: And also, and I know that the cl report did 215 00:14:05,080 --> 00:14:09,840 Speaker 1: this as well, the link between you know, this like 216 00:14:09,920 --> 00:14:16,280 Speaker 1: blue hydrogen, these ammonia plants that are connected to LNG 217 00:14:16,679 --> 00:14:19,480 Speaker 1: projects that people are like, oh this is this makes 218 00:14:19,520 --> 00:14:24,280 Speaker 1: it green, you know, this kind of connection between these 219 00:14:24,280 --> 00:14:28,880 Speaker 1: fertilizers and some of the false solutions that are populating 220 00:14:29,240 --> 00:14:33,720 Speaker 1: lots of lots of fossil fuel industry reports. 221 00:14:33,760 --> 00:14:36,880 Speaker 2: What I think is important to understand is that we 222 00:14:37,560 --> 00:14:40,600 Speaker 2: really saw a shift of really massive shift and how 223 00:14:41,040 --> 00:14:44,360 Speaker 2: we think about what is the most efficient and effective 224 00:14:44,400 --> 00:14:47,360 Speaker 2: way to grow food in the last century, and it 225 00:14:47,440 --> 00:14:50,720 Speaker 2: was one that really shifted from what many folks would 226 00:14:50,720 --> 00:14:54,520 Speaker 2: describe as like an ecological approach, where we think about 227 00:14:54,960 --> 00:14:59,360 Speaker 2: how does nature naturally build fertility and soil. How does 228 00:14:59,480 --> 00:15:04,000 Speaker 2: nature create populations that are in balance so you don't 229 00:15:04,040 --> 00:15:07,040 Speaker 2: have crazy pest pressures on crops, you know, really looking 230 00:15:07,040 --> 00:15:09,800 Speaker 2: at kind of the ecology of a farm and really 231 00:15:09,920 --> 00:15:14,520 Speaker 2: finding ways through that ecology to deal with pest pressures, 232 00:15:14,920 --> 00:15:19,080 Speaker 2: to deal with needing, healthy soil, et cetera. To a 233 00:15:19,240 --> 00:15:22,560 Speaker 2: much more totally different approach, which is really kind of 234 00:15:22,600 --> 00:15:27,520 Speaker 2: chemically based, industrially based. And in order to have that 235 00:15:27,600 --> 00:15:31,080 Speaker 2: model of farming, you really need a huge amount of energy. 236 00:15:31,120 --> 00:15:37,160 Speaker 2: Why because synthetic fertilizer includes nitrogen, phosphorus, and potash. Those 237 00:15:37,240 --> 00:15:39,760 Speaker 2: last two are mind minerals, which we could have a 238 00:15:39,800 --> 00:15:44,840 Speaker 2: whole other podcast about the environmental impact and political geopolitical 239 00:15:44,880 --> 00:15:48,920 Speaker 2: impact of mining those finite resources. But just sticking with 240 00:15:48,960 --> 00:15:53,600 Speaker 2: the nitrogen part of nitrogen fertilizer, so you know, there's 241 00:15:54,640 --> 00:15:58,800 Speaker 2: nitrogen gas is abundant in our atmosphere, but how to 242 00:15:58,840 --> 00:16:00,920 Speaker 2: actually fix it in a way to use it as 243 00:16:00,960 --> 00:16:05,400 Speaker 2: fertilizer is uh was a process that's known as the 244 00:16:05,440 --> 00:16:11,000 Speaker 2: huber Bosch process, highly energy intensive, and it's through that 245 00:16:11,320 --> 00:16:14,040 Speaker 2: process that we're able to then have that building block 246 00:16:14,080 --> 00:16:17,080 Speaker 2: of synthetic fertilizer and for those who've been raising the 247 00:16:17,120 --> 00:16:21,840 Speaker 2: alarm about this kind of chemical approach to farming. It's twofold. 248 00:16:21,840 --> 00:16:25,840 Speaker 2: It's one that it's incredibly dirty energy that goes into 249 00:16:26,120 --> 00:16:29,160 Speaker 2: that production process. I mentioned in some cases it's coal 250 00:16:29,480 --> 00:16:32,840 Speaker 2: fired power plants. It's also natural gas, so a lot 251 00:16:32,840 --> 00:16:35,640 Speaker 2: of fract gas in the US is going to produce 252 00:16:35,640 --> 00:16:39,800 Speaker 2: synthetic fertilizer. But the other problem, and we talked about 253 00:16:39,840 --> 00:16:42,640 Speaker 2: this in the podcast, is that in the use of 254 00:16:43,120 --> 00:16:48,040 Speaker 2: synthetic fertilizers, greenhouse gases are emitted. That we have incredible 255 00:16:49,200 --> 00:16:52,560 Speaker 2: greenhouse gas pollution from the use of these synthetic fertilizers. 256 00:16:53,120 --> 00:16:58,240 Speaker 2: But even you know as worrisome is that this overuse 257 00:16:58,440 --> 00:17:05,080 Speaker 2: of nitrogen based fertilizers has totally upended kind of our 258 00:17:05,160 --> 00:17:08,720 Speaker 2: nitrogen cycles on the planet. So you now have a 259 00:17:08,760 --> 00:17:15,000 Speaker 2: crisis of kind of over essentially runoff from the overuse 260 00:17:15,040 --> 00:17:20,680 Speaker 2: of these fertilizers creating massive aquatic dead zones that are 261 00:17:20,720 --> 00:17:24,600 Speaker 2: creating incredible environmental impacts in our oceans. So there's just 262 00:17:24,880 --> 00:17:29,440 Speaker 2: so many ripple effects from this approach that we've taken 263 00:17:29,480 --> 00:17:33,920 Speaker 2: to agriculture that I think many of us who come 264 00:17:33,960 --> 00:17:38,639 Speaker 2: from ecological perspectives are saying, hey, we need to really 265 00:17:39,920 --> 00:17:43,880 Speaker 2: take a look at actually those lessons we've learned about 266 00:17:43,880 --> 00:17:46,800 Speaker 2: ecological farming to say, what is the farming we need 267 00:17:46,840 --> 00:17:48,879 Speaker 2: for this century. When we know we need to phase 268 00:17:48,920 --> 00:17:51,879 Speaker 2: out oil and gas, when we know we need to 269 00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:56,720 Speaker 2: bring natural cycles back into alignment, how can we go 270 00:17:56,840 --> 00:18:01,920 Speaker 2: back to some ecological principles of farming and and really 271 00:18:02,040 --> 00:18:05,200 Speaker 2: work toward creating greater resilient farms as well as still 272 00:18:05,320 --> 00:18:06,320 Speaker 2: very productive farms. 273 00:18:06,760 --> 00:18:10,159 Speaker 3: Nitrogen fertilizer really is a fossil fuel product. If you 274 00:18:10,200 --> 00:18:12,879 Speaker 3: went to a factory, you'd see a big gas pipe 275 00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:14,760 Speaker 3: going in on one end and a big and hydrous 276 00:18:14,760 --> 00:18:18,160 Speaker 3: ammonia pipe coming out the other. So we're literally transforming 277 00:18:18,200 --> 00:18:23,240 Speaker 3: these fossil fuels into fertility. And I think the promise 278 00:18:23,440 --> 00:18:28,360 Speaker 3: of industry here is saying this is a really important innovation. 279 00:18:28,640 --> 00:18:32,720 Speaker 3: It's literally led to feeding, maybe not feeding, but providing 280 00:18:32,800 --> 00:18:35,520 Speaker 3: enough calories for billions and more people on the planet. 281 00:18:35,880 --> 00:18:38,439 Speaker 3: It absolutely did that. It was an amazing innovation, and 282 00:18:38,480 --> 00:18:42,480 Speaker 3: so people are thinking, okay, can we just green this process? 283 00:18:43,359 --> 00:18:46,879 Speaker 3: And this is where I think your audience will be 284 00:18:46,920 --> 00:18:52,520 Speaker 3: really familiar with a particular technological solution that over promises 285 00:18:52,880 --> 00:18:56,639 Speaker 3: and isn't really cost effective or scalable, even though it 286 00:18:56,720 --> 00:19:01,800 Speaker 3: is in this case, this one's technically feasible. So today 287 00:19:02,440 --> 00:19:06,080 Speaker 3: less than one percent of global hydrogen production is green, 288 00:19:06,160 --> 00:19:11,320 Speaker 3: and this is partly what's needed to green the Huberbosch process. 289 00:19:12,280 --> 00:19:15,280 Speaker 3: But what's happening is that we're kind of paying attention 290 00:19:15,359 --> 00:19:18,719 Speaker 3: to the wrong thing. There could be efforts to retrofit 291 00:19:18,800 --> 00:19:24,639 Speaker 3: these existing fossil fuel plants and invest in these new electrolyzers, 292 00:19:25,000 --> 00:19:28,760 Speaker 3: but instead there's more money going into carbon capture technology, 293 00:19:29,560 --> 00:19:32,120 Speaker 3: so there's even less money trying to green the actual production. 294 00:19:32,880 --> 00:19:36,040 Speaker 3: But again we're missing a bigger picture, which is what 295 00:19:36,440 --> 00:19:41,440 Speaker 3: Anna was saying earlier, which is that the actual emissions 296 00:19:41,480 --> 00:19:46,360 Speaker 3: connected to the production process are a fraction of the problem. 297 00:19:46,720 --> 00:19:50,600 Speaker 3: The bigger part of the problem is application and over application. 298 00:19:51,440 --> 00:19:55,040 Speaker 3: So we apply one hundred and twenty million tons of 299 00:19:55,160 --> 00:19:59,080 Speaker 3: nitrogen fertilizer a year, and it's hard to know the 300 00:19:59,119 --> 00:20:02,640 Speaker 3: exact number here, but there are massive amounts. I mean, 301 00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:06,479 Speaker 3: there's some estimates that it's over fifty percent is not 302 00:20:06,520 --> 00:20:10,520 Speaker 3: actually being uptaken by the crop. So one we should 303 00:20:10,520 --> 00:20:13,480 Speaker 3: actually be reducing this use and not increasing its use, 304 00:20:13,520 --> 00:20:16,720 Speaker 3: which is where the projections are going. And two there 305 00:20:16,760 --> 00:20:22,600 Speaker 3: are alternatives simply legome crops, these amazing, amazing plants that 306 00:20:22,680 --> 00:20:26,440 Speaker 3: can biologically fix nitrogen in the soil through this bacteria 307 00:20:26,520 --> 00:20:31,120 Speaker 3: in their root system. So I think there's a lot 308 00:20:31,119 --> 00:20:34,320 Speaker 3: of layers to this, but the main one is that 309 00:20:34,520 --> 00:20:37,680 Speaker 3: right where we're looking at the wrong thing, our attention 310 00:20:37,760 --> 00:20:40,000 Speaker 3: and our resources are growing into the wrong place. 311 00:20:40,760 --> 00:20:43,800 Speaker 1: That's fascinating that it reminds me so much of the 312 00:20:43,840 --> 00:20:48,240 Speaker 1: conversation around so called renewable natural gas too, which like 313 00:20:49,280 --> 00:20:53,920 Speaker 1: you know, is another sort of no, wait, we can 314 00:20:54,040 --> 00:20:59,399 Speaker 1: green natural gas. It's fine, but it also simultaneously incentivizes 315 00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:05,880 Speaker 1: and dust streal cattle alterations. You know, It's like, ah, 316 00:21:06,040 --> 00:21:08,719 Speaker 1: is this good? I don't know. And it you know, 317 00:21:09,160 --> 00:21:13,080 Speaker 1: keeps LNG infrastructure or natural gas infrastructure in place, so 318 00:21:13,280 --> 00:21:17,240 Speaker 1: you know, which I think is the ultimate point of 319 00:21:17,280 --> 00:21:20,720 Speaker 1: a lot of this stuff is to you know, lean 320 00:21:20,760 --> 00:21:24,040 Speaker 1: into the quote unquote solutions that don't require any kind 321 00:21:24,080 --> 00:21:26,480 Speaker 1: of uh systemic change. 322 00:21:26,880 --> 00:21:28,960 Speaker 2: Well, you were kind of referencing this, Matthew, when you 323 00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:34,240 Speaker 2: were talking about this incredible increase in in nitrogen fertilizers 324 00:21:34,520 --> 00:21:38,560 Speaker 2: and around the world, and it's often touted as you know, 325 00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:42,119 Speaker 2: this is what we've needed to feed a growing population. 326 00:21:42,480 --> 00:21:44,399 Speaker 2: But I think it's really important to look at where 327 00:21:44,680 --> 00:21:47,480 Speaker 2: most of this fertilizer is actually being applied and used. 328 00:21:47,520 --> 00:21:50,880 Speaker 2: A lot of it's on crops that don't feed people directly, 329 00:21:50,920 --> 00:21:55,280 Speaker 2: so it's feed crops going into industrial animal operations, but 330 00:21:55,359 --> 00:22:00,679 Speaker 2: also increasingly it is fertilizer being used on crops like 331 00:22:00,800 --> 00:22:06,240 Speaker 2: corn that's going into corn based ethanol, which I'm sure 332 00:22:06,480 --> 00:22:11,800 Speaker 2: Amy your audience knows to raise some real questions around 333 00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:15,000 Speaker 2: how efficient corn based ethanol is as a green, so 334 00:22:15,119 --> 00:22:19,280 Speaker 2: called green alternative to gas. And you know, so you 335 00:22:19,359 --> 00:22:22,920 Speaker 2: now have a situation in the US where almost half 336 00:22:23,080 --> 00:22:27,879 Speaker 2: of the corn that we're growing is going to corn 337 00:22:27,920 --> 00:22:30,359 Speaker 2: based ethanol, and then of course a good chunk of 338 00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:33,119 Speaker 2: the rest of that corn isn't going to corn you 339 00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:37,160 Speaker 2: or I would eat. It's going to livestock or industrial purposes. So, 340 00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:41,639 Speaker 2: you know, I think it's also really important to remember 341 00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:49,200 Speaker 2: that we are using these really fossil fuel dependent elements 342 00:22:49,280 --> 00:22:52,840 Speaker 2: to feed into a production system that isn't actually feeding 343 00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:57,240 Speaker 2: us healthy, good, nutritious food, but it is going into 344 00:22:57,359 --> 00:23:00,840 Speaker 2: kind of these so called solutions that I think right 345 00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:03,560 Speaker 2: that folks like you and me have raised such good 346 00:23:03,720 --> 00:23:04,800 Speaker 2: questions about. 347 00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:08,119 Speaker 1: That's so it's so interesting. Actually just the fact that 348 00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:11,359 Speaker 1: you know, nitrogen fertilizer is a fossil fuel product, I 349 00:23:11,359 --> 00:23:15,760 Speaker 1: think is very is just not as known as it 350 00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:16,280 Speaker 1: should be. 351 00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:20,639 Speaker 3: Yeah, five percent of global gas use goes into nitrogen fertilizer, 352 00:23:21,080 --> 00:23:25,760 Speaker 3: which is just as soon as I heard that, I'm like, again, 353 00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:28,840 Speaker 3: everything I've learned about this is so much more than 354 00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:30,119 Speaker 3: I initially thought it was. 355 00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:35,720 Speaker 1: Are people starting to see more this hidden fossil fuel 356 00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:40,479 Speaker 1: layer of industrial agriculture? I know this is like the 357 00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:45,520 Speaker 1: entire purpose of your podcast, so hopefully that will help. 358 00:23:45,600 --> 00:23:48,320 Speaker 1: But but yeah, does it seem like at least climate 359 00:23:48,320 --> 00:23:51,720 Speaker 1: people because actually I was shocked on the plastics thing 360 00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:58,919 Speaker 1: too that several like very well known climate reporters you know, 361 00:23:59,800 --> 00:24:02,560 Speaker 1: just in the last few years have kind of suddenly 362 00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:05,040 Speaker 1: clicked on too. Oh wait a minute, this really is 363 00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:08,919 Speaker 1: a climate problem too. So yeah, I wonder if, like, 364 00:24:09,920 --> 00:24:12,240 Speaker 1: are the climate folks at least starting to get this 365 00:24:12,359 --> 00:24:14,359 Speaker 1: and do you get a sense that it's starting to 366 00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:16,080 Speaker 1: become more visible for people. 367 00:24:16,760 --> 00:24:21,960 Speaker 2: I have a very very specific filter bubble around me, 368 00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:24,640 Speaker 2: as I think we all do now right, we all 369 00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:27,080 Speaker 2: know and so the world that I'm in now. So 370 00:24:27,119 --> 00:24:29,720 Speaker 2: for years I've been working on food system issues, and 371 00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:32,119 Speaker 2: my last book was on the links between food and 372 00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:35,040 Speaker 2: climate change and trying to raise the alarm that if 373 00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:37,120 Speaker 2: you care about climate you've got to be talking about 374 00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:39,720 Speaker 2: changing our food system. In these last couple of years, 375 00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:43,560 Speaker 2: I've increasingly been working with private philanthropy, so working with 376 00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:47,920 Speaker 2: philanthropic institutions that are passionate also about changing food systems, 377 00:24:48,280 --> 00:24:52,960 Speaker 2: and supporting many of the civil society groups and advocates 378 00:24:53,080 --> 00:24:56,600 Speaker 2: and etc. Of researchers that are working on these issues. 379 00:24:57,119 --> 00:24:59,960 Speaker 2: And so from that vantage point, again it's just one 380 00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:04,560 Speaker 2: advantage point, I certainly feel like we're seeing the conversation shift. 381 00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:07,679 Speaker 2: And at the Global Alliance, our PowerShift report was about 382 00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:11,040 Speaker 2: trying to connect these dots between food and energy for 383 00:25:11,119 --> 00:25:14,240 Speaker 2: a broad audience, but also for philanthropies that are funding 384 00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:17,240 Speaker 2: a lot of the again research and media and civil 385 00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:20,360 Speaker 2: society groups. And just to give you a concrete example 386 00:25:20,359 --> 00:25:23,560 Speaker 2: of how I feel like this conversation is really really 387 00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:28,800 Speaker 2: starting to Expand we had a number of my colleagues 388 00:25:28,840 --> 00:25:32,280 Speaker 2: and I organized a summit at Climate Week in New 389 00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:36,639 Speaker 2: York City this year on petrochemicals, climate and health, and 390 00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:39,320 Speaker 2: it was the first really high level summit on those 391 00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:42,600 Speaker 2: themes connecting them together. We had more than three hundred 392 00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:46,920 Speaker 2: people come to that summit. We had amazing voices like 393 00:25:47,040 --> 00:25:51,600 Speaker 2: Jane Fonda speak about these intersections and scientists and advocates, 394 00:25:51,880 --> 00:25:56,239 Speaker 2: and it was that day, I feel like was the 395 00:25:56,280 --> 00:26:00,840 Speaker 2: embodiment of many, many, many more people acting these dots, 396 00:26:01,240 --> 00:26:03,960 Speaker 2: and all of us that day recognizing we need to 397 00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:07,320 Speaker 2: make these dots connected even more and really make sure 398 00:26:07,359 --> 00:26:10,719 Speaker 2: that we're bringing in the whole story of fossil fuels 399 00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:13,960 Speaker 2: in the food system. So Matthew has talked a lot 400 00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:17,560 Speaker 2: about how fossil fuels show up across the food chain, 401 00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:22,159 Speaker 2: and we think very importantly at the kind of input 402 00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:25,600 Speaker 2: and processing stage. We've talked about plastics, We've talked about 403 00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:29,359 Speaker 2: synthetic fertilizers, but also it's really important to put pesticides 404 00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:32,840 Speaker 2: into that conversation because again, they are chemical, so they're 405 00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:36,440 Speaker 2: fossil fuels in another form, and pesticides, while a tiny 406 00:26:36,520 --> 00:26:41,640 Speaker 2: fraction of fossil fuel kind of usage globally, pesticides really 407 00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:45,520 Speaker 2: are the lynchpin on which this whole industrial system hinges 408 00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:52,200 Speaker 2: because if you're using synthetic fertilizer, you're absolutely destroying agriculture's 409 00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:58,000 Speaker 2: ability to manage pests, fungus, any to manage really anything 410 00:26:58,160 --> 00:27:05,240 Speaker 2: without a chemical. You absolutely need passicides. Again, these petrochemicals 411 00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:08,239 Speaker 2: that are often highly toxic as a lynchpin in this 412 00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:10,960 Speaker 2: whole system. And so we think it's really important to 413 00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:14,919 Speaker 2: to be bringing those that conversation and advocates that are 414 00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:19,879 Speaker 2: working on pesticides from a biodiversity and a health perspective 415 00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:23,200 Speaker 2: into the climate story as well. 416 00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:28,160 Speaker 3: So I'm probably a little more cynical in terms of 417 00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:31,840 Speaker 3: how much this message is getting off the ground. And 418 00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:35,000 Speaker 3: you know, hopefully this podcast and all the work that 419 00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:40,400 Speaker 3: in the Global Alliance and Center for Environmental International Environmental 420 00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:43,320 Speaker 3: Law and all these other organizations, I hope that work 421 00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:45,560 Speaker 3: kind of continues to make this a bigger part of 422 00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:50,400 Speaker 3: the conversation. But presently, I think people are really focusing 423 00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:55,200 Speaker 3: on emissions and the single emissions metric as the thing 424 00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:57,520 Speaker 3: that we need to be working on. And you know, 425 00:27:57,640 --> 00:28:01,600 Speaker 3: that makes sense in the sense that if we don't 426 00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:06,480 Speaker 3: tackle food and food system emissions, we're going to be 427 00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:10,040 Speaker 3: nowhere near reaching our climate targets. I mean, even if 428 00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:13,280 Speaker 3: we decarbonize every other sector. If we don't touch food, 429 00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:17,359 Speaker 3: we're not going to be meeting those. But when we 430 00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:22,159 Speaker 3: think about emissions, then we don't really talk about inputs, 431 00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:26,800 Speaker 3: and that's where fossil fuel inputs get sort of a pass. 432 00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:31,200 Speaker 3: And that's really where like you're saying, and the pesticides 433 00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:33,840 Speaker 3: are really interesting because you have all these sort of 434 00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:36,679 Speaker 3: you know, so called trade offs between like say, if 435 00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:40,760 Speaker 3: you're doing no tail farming, there's certainly organic farmers who 436 00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:44,760 Speaker 3: do no tail and they use these roller crimpers to 437 00:28:44,760 --> 00:28:49,120 Speaker 3: not you know, break up, to not plow the soil 438 00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:51,280 Speaker 3: and disrupt all the carbon that's in there. Like no 439 00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:54,560 Speaker 3: tail farming is a really good practice, but it often 440 00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:57,760 Speaker 3: leads to an increased pesticide use and herbicide use to 441 00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:01,640 Speaker 3: control all the pests and the weeds on a farm. 442 00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:04,760 Speaker 3: This also connects a little bit to carbon credits and 443 00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:08,200 Speaker 3: carbon markets. There's lobbyists and policy makers trying to set 444 00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:12,280 Speaker 3: up these carbon markets and it's it is a way 445 00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:16,760 Speaker 3: if you give absolutely every benefit of the doubt to 446 00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:23,400 Speaker 3: say improve farm practices and decrease emissions. But basically all 447 00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:26,680 Speaker 3: the evidences that we've seen of these being implemented haven't 448 00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:31,680 Speaker 3: led to any any level of significant decreases. They've often 449 00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:35,440 Speaker 3: they've often led to increases both of inputs and emissions. 450 00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:39,520 Speaker 3: The senior staff reporter at Civil Eats, Lisa Held, had 451 00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:44,600 Speaker 3: this incredible article reporting on carbon markets and pesticide use 452 00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:48,240 Speaker 3: and pesticide companies, and if it's okay, I'm just going 453 00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:50,120 Speaker 3: to read a quote from the end from one of 454 00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:56,120 Speaker 3: the the undersecretary at the USDA. The quote is, we 455 00:29:56,160 --> 00:29:58,600 Speaker 3: want to keep our eye on the prize here, and 456 00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:01,560 Speaker 3: it may be that there are stems we're reducing inputs, 457 00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:04,000 Speaker 3: or changing the mix of inputs, or using inputs that 458 00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:07,960 Speaker 3: enhance efficiency allow us to reduce greenoss gas emissions while 459 00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:11,960 Speaker 3: maintaining productivity. In many places, that's part of the mix. 460 00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:14,760 Speaker 3: But we're not here trying to limit inputs per se. 461 00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:19,480 Speaker 3: We're trying to reduce greenouse gas emissions. And that was 462 00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:21,120 Speaker 3: just so telling. 463 00:30:22,080 --> 00:30:24,280 Speaker 2: Wow, that's fascinating. 464 00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:27,920 Speaker 1: Okay, that's also like a perfect segue into talking about 465 00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:32,479 Speaker 1: this recent reporting from Lighthouse Reports and The Guardian and 466 00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:38,280 Speaker 1: the new lead looking at the pesticide oh sorry, the 467 00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:43,640 Speaker 1: herbicide paraquat, and just like the lengths that some of 468 00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:49,400 Speaker 1: the companies pushing these things both pesticides and herbicides will 469 00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:52,920 Speaker 1: go to to try to keep those products on the 470 00:30:52,960 --> 00:30:57,280 Speaker 1: market and to to really suppress a lot of the 471 00:30:57,320 --> 00:31:00,400 Speaker 1: information around it, or at least try to cast doubt 472 00:31:00,520 --> 00:31:04,680 Speaker 1: on it. Anna, I'm I'm almost positive that there's a 473 00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:07,280 Speaker 1: profile in their little database for you. 474 00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:10,600 Speaker 2: So there is. 475 00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:15,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, I actually like worked on that a little bit 476 00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:17,920 Speaker 1: with those guys, so like have been sort of seeing 477 00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:20,840 Speaker 1: that story come together over the last year, and it's 478 00:31:20,880 --> 00:31:23,560 Speaker 1: really wild and I think that, like as much as 479 00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:24,720 Speaker 1: I don't know, I feel like. 480 00:31:24,720 --> 00:31:26,480 Speaker 2: I'm a little bit jaded to the. 481 00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:30,200 Speaker 1: Corporate corporate espionage world because it's so pervasive, I don't 482 00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:33,120 Speaker 1: think that the general public realizes the extent to which 483 00:31:33,120 --> 00:31:35,520 Speaker 1: it's going on. So yeah, I'm curious to hear your 484 00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:38,480 Speaker 1: thoughts on that and and just what kind of damage 485 00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:41,720 Speaker 1: it does. Let me correct the record that Matti, you're 486 00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:43,280 Speaker 1: saying you might be a little more cynical to me. 487 00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:45,560 Speaker 1: I do want to say I also am quite cynical too. 488 00:31:46,280 --> 00:31:50,000 Speaker 2: You know. I think that I'm both cynical and I 489 00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:52,680 Speaker 2: like to describe myself as a possiblist in the sense 490 00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:54,600 Speaker 2: that you know, we sort of don't know what's possible. 491 00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:57,440 Speaker 2: So I like to hold on, hold on, to hold 492 00:31:57,480 --> 00:32:01,360 Speaker 2: on to that piece of hope because I do think well, again, 493 00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:04,840 Speaker 2: within our within you know, maybe the audience, you all 494 00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:08,360 Speaker 2: listening to us, and the folks that were connected to Matthew, 495 00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:10,719 Speaker 2: this conversation is starting. There's so much more work to 496 00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:14,120 Speaker 2: be done here, of course, and that quote was you know, 497 00:32:14,160 --> 00:32:16,720 Speaker 2: really speaks to that. But to your to your question 498 00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:22,680 Speaker 2: Amy about this Lighthouse Reporting and uh, you know, I 499 00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:24,200 Speaker 2: think you framed it up well and you said you 500 00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:26,200 Speaker 2: might be a little bit jaded because this is your 501 00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:30,120 Speaker 2: beat to cover how much the industry uses stealth PR 502 00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:35,120 Speaker 2: tactics to really try to push doubt, denial, distraction, delay, 503 00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:41,160 Speaker 2: all of it. Right, this Lighthouse Reports analysis is kind 504 00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:44,640 Speaker 2: of just another example of what we've seen out there. 505 00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:49,920 Speaker 2: And so what they discovered was again just kind of 506 00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:53,200 Speaker 2: like we've seen oil and gas industry and other you know, 507 00:32:53,280 --> 00:32:56,480 Speaker 2: other players do all the time, uh, funding a kind 508 00:32:56,480 --> 00:33:02,800 Speaker 2: of stealth PR effort to try to thwart progress on 509 00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:06,360 Speaker 2: what I would describe as like common sense pesticide regulation 510 00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:12,400 Speaker 2: and reforms. And so they found that our taxpayer dollars 511 00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:17,720 Speaker 2: had funded USAID to Channel four hundred thousand dollars and 512 00:33:17,760 --> 00:33:19,600 Speaker 2: this is just what they tracked. So you know, who 513 00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:23,400 Speaker 2: knows how much more money for otter agencies to a 514 00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:26,200 Speaker 2: PR agency that I had actually been tracking for years 515 00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:28,920 Speaker 2: and in fact, amy I went back to my Merchants 516 00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:31,360 Speaker 2: of Poison report, which I wrote with some colleagues that 517 00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:34,160 Speaker 2: was a specific case study of how industry shaped the 518 00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:38,920 Speaker 2: story of the really widely used herbicide roundup or life estate. 519 00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:44,680 Speaker 2: And we don't really we talked about this PR firm 520 00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:47,600 Speaker 2: and this individual that Lighthouse Reports talked about, and we 521 00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:51,400 Speaker 2: even talked about that. What they discovered was this private 522 00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:55,520 Speaker 2: network that this individual j Bourn, had set up that 523 00:33:56,120 --> 00:33:58,239 Speaker 2: was accessible to I think about a thousand people. And 524 00:33:58,280 --> 00:34:02,480 Speaker 2: in this private online resource you could search the profiles 525 00:34:02,520 --> 00:34:08,080 Speaker 2: of five hundred activists, researchers, some un officials, and the 526 00:34:08,080 --> 00:34:12,440 Speaker 2: profiles about three thousand organizations that this PR firm compiled. 527 00:34:13,239 --> 00:34:15,600 Speaker 2: And I had written about this, didn't realize there was 528 00:34:15,640 --> 00:34:17,960 Speaker 2: tax pic pair dollars going to it, and didn't realize 529 00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:22,560 Speaker 2: I had a profile in it too. Yeah, but again no, 530 00:34:22,719 --> 00:34:27,680 Speaker 2: it doesn't surprise me. But what really was unnerving to 531 00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:32,160 Speaker 2: read in the reporting, and there's been great reporting in 532 00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:34,879 Speaker 2: a number of outlets around the world about how this 533 00:34:34,960 --> 00:34:38,719 Speaker 2: actually had real world impacts. So a great report came 534 00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:42,200 Speaker 2: out based on this analysis out of Kenya that showed 535 00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:49,080 Speaker 2: that this online private network and the intelligence that was 536 00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:54,000 Speaker 2: embedded in it was used to push back against a 537 00:34:54,200 --> 00:34:58,000 Speaker 2: conference being planned in Kenya to talk about alternative to 538 00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:02,120 Speaker 2: highly hazardous pessis use in that country, and that conference 539 00:35:02,280 --> 00:35:06,280 Speaker 2: was killed never happened. There was a really great reporting 540 00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:10,040 Speaker 2: out of France about how this effort was funneled into 541 00:35:10,080 --> 00:35:15,040 Speaker 2: trying to push back against an undermine legislation at the 542 00:35:15,040 --> 00:35:18,920 Speaker 2: EU level that would have looked to pathways for farmers 543 00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:23,200 Speaker 2: to be supported to reduce pesticide use. So what came 544 00:35:23,239 --> 00:35:26,239 Speaker 2: out of that reporting wasn't just yet. It's unnerving to 545 00:35:26,320 --> 00:35:29,840 Speaker 2: know there's like a database of all these profiles of 546 00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:35,680 Speaker 2: people being used, but really seeing how that actually stopped 547 00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:40,320 Speaker 2: progress like this necessary progress to phase out fossil fuels 548 00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:44,640 Speaker 2: on farms and and yeah, I mean, I will say 549 00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:48,040 Speaker 2: my profile read just like a bad Wikipedia entry, but 550 00:35:48,280 --> 00:35:51,240 Speaker 2: some of them were really some of them sounded really 551 00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:55,440 Speaker 2: personally invasive. You know, in the reporting they talked about 552 00:35:55,520 --> 00:36:00,760 Speaker 2: you know, personal details, marriages, divorces, suicides within families, I mean, really, 553 00:36:02,040 --> 00:36:04,640 Speaker 2: you know, personal stuff to try to which again we know, 554 00:36:05,120 --> 00:36:07,560 Speaker 2: we know this is what industry does, but to see 555 00:36:07,560 --> 00:36:10,080 Speaker 2: it again was alarming. 556 00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:13,359 Speaker 1: Yeah, to see it and to know that the US 557 00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:19,480 Speaker 1: government was funding it is very concerning. And then you 558 00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:21,759 Speaker 1: know there are quite a few journalists in there too 559 00:36:21,800 --> 00:36:25,320 Speaker 1: that they were tracking, and that they were then using 560 00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:29,680 Speaker 1: that information to go after particular reporters to try to 561 00:36:29,719 --> 00:36:32,960 Speaker 1: get them you know, fired or discredited to try to 562 00:36:33,040 --> 00:36:36,080 Speaker 1: kill stories. So it really like had this impact on 563 00:36:36,239 --> 00:36:40,080 Speaker 1: the information that was available to people as well. You know, 564 00:36:41,600 --> 00:36:45,279 Speaker 1: I also like I think this ended up I don't 565 00:36:45,280 --> 00:36:47,120 Speaker 1: know if this ended up being in any of the stories, 566 00:36:47,120 --> 00:36:50,400 Speaker 1: but when we were doing some of the initial research, 567 00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:56,239 Speaker 1: you know, Jay Byrne was working on the strategy for atrazine, 568 00:36:57,400 --> 00:37:01,680 Speaker 1: gliaf estate, and pair all at the same time. So 569 00:37:01,960 --> 00:37:04,840 Speaker 1: it's like, again to me, I'm like, yes, this is 570 00:37:04,880 --> 00:37:07,280 Speaker 1: the thing I you know, I've been sort of obsessed 571 00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:09,680 Speaker 1: with for a long time is that in a lot 572 00:37:09,680 --> 00:37:14,360 Speaker 1: of cases, these PR operatives are the like node between 573 00:37:14,440 --> 00:37:17,840 Speaker 1: all of these things, and they're often working on this 574 00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:20,279 Speaker 1: stuff all at the same time, and then you know, 575 00:37:20,400 --> 00:37:22,800 Speaker 1: just sort of like deploying it as needed. 576 00:37:23,280 --> 00:37:26,200 Speaker 2: You yeah, and thanks to you know, journalists like you 577 00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:29,879 Speaker 2: Amy and my colleagues at US Right to Know or 578 00:37:30,360 --> 00:37:33,919 Speaker 2: Carrie Gillam at the new Lead Lighthouse reports, we now 579 00:37:34,080 --> 00:37:41,560 Speaker 2: have absolutely vast tranches of internal industry documents that map 580 00:37:41,640 --> 00:37:43,520 Speaker 2: all this out. So you can go to US Right 581 00:37:43,560 --> 00:37:46,359 Speaker 2: to Know they have a lot of archives there. You 582 00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:50,480 Speaker 2: can go to San Francisco has industry archives, just like 583 00:37:50,480 --> 00:37:53,919 Speaker 2: they have the tobacco industry archives, and so you can 584 00:37:54,040 --> 00:37:58,279 Speaker 2: actually read and it's if you know, any of us 585 00:37:58,320 --> 00:38:00,840 Speaker 2: can write. So I encourage all of you listening to 586 00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:03,920 Speaker 2: go read some of these internal emails and you'll read 587 00:38:03,960 --> 00:38:08,120 Speaker 2: things like I was just looking at some reporting that 588 00:38:08,160 --> 00:38:14,280 Speaker 2: Carrie Gillam had done about Syngenta, the company Syngenta's internal 589 00:38:14,320 --> 00:38:19,080 Speaker 2: messaging around their pro pesticide pr campaign what they call 590 00:38:19,120 --> 00:38:21,480 Speaker 2: their wish list, and in one of these emails back 591 00:38:21,520 --> 00:38:24,440 Speaker 2: in two thousand and three, they said, quote, our industry 592 00:38:24,600 --> 00:38:28,720 Speaker 2: sorely needs a public relations campaign to improve the image 593 00:38:28,719 --> 00:38:35,480 Speaker 2: of pesticides, like the campaigns underway for the plastics industry. 594 00:38:35,640 --> 00:38:39,280 Speaker 2: So one of the most amazing scientists who's been tracking 595 00:38:39,320 --> 00:38:43,400 Speaker 2: the impact of the really specific pesticide Actressine is Professor 596 00:38:43,480 --> 00:38:46,400 Speaker 2: Tyrone Hayes at UC Berkeley. One of their wish lists 597 00:38:46,560 --> 00:38:49,759 Speaker 2: was we should purchase Tyrone Hayes as a search word 598 00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:53,120 Speaker 2: on the internet, so that anytime someone searches for Tyrone's material, 599 00:38:53,280 --> 00:38:55,520 Speaker 2: the first thing they'll see is our material, not his. 600 00:38:58,000 --> 00:39:00,520 Speaker 2: We know they do this, and again, thanks to journalists 601 00:39:00,520 --> 00:39:03,680 Speaker 2: like you, folks like the new lead Carry gillam Us 602 00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:06,480 Speaker 2: Right to Know Lighthouse reports, this is getting out there 603 00:39:07,080 --> 00:39:10,560 Speaker 2: that we really need to, you know, keep helping people 604 00:39:10,640 --> 00:39:14,680 Speaker 2: see behind the scenes about these stealthy art tactics. 605 00:39:15,200 --> 00:39:20,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, yes, because actually so I went with Carrie to 606 00:39:21,440 --> 00:39:25,319 Speaker 1: Florida earlier this year to interview someone who had been 607 00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:29,080 Speaker 1: impacted by this directly. This is another impact that I 608 00:39:29,080 --> 00:39:32,360 Speaker 1: feel like people need to understand is that when this 609 00:39:32,440 --> 00:39:36,120 Speaker 1: information gets blocked and when there's all this lobbying going 610 00:39:36,200 --> 00:39:40,640 Speaker 1: on to prevent the EPA from regulating these chemicals, people 611 00:39:40,719 --> 00:39:45,400 Speaker 1: get hurt. You know. Paraquat, the focus of that Lighthouse 612 00:39:45,440 --> 00:39:50,239 Speaker 1: story is directly linked to Parkinson's, like with an overwhelming 613 00:39:50,280 --> 00:39:52,960 Speaker 1: amount of evidence. And you know, we sat in the 614 00:39:53,000 --> 00:39:58,480 Speaker 1: living room of a guy who has Parkinson's now was 615 00:39:58,560 --> 00:40:05,239 Speaker 1: exposed to paraquat for like twenty years, and he's actually Interestingly, 616 00:40:05,400 --> 00:40:09,400 Speaker 1: he's still sort of pro chemicals in agriculture. He was like, 617 00:40:09,520 --> 00:40:12,719 Speaker 1: I just feel like they should have to be you know, 618 00:40:12,840 --> 00:40:16,080 Speaker 1: honest and straightforward about the actual impacts of this stuff. 619 00:40:16,120 --> 00:40:18,600 Speaker 1: And I'm like, man, it's pretty hard to argue against that, 620 00:40:18,920 --> 00:40:22,640 Speaker 1: you know, Like this guy's not even saying this should 621 00:40:22,680 --> 00:40:25,960 Speaker 1: be banned or we shouldn't use chemicals in agriculture or 622 00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:29,920 Speaker 1: any of those things. He's asking for like basic information 623 00:40:30,200 --> 00:40:32,719 Speaker 1: so that any person that comes into contact with this 624 00:40:32,760 --> 00:40:36,359 Speaker 1: stuff knows what the risk is. And the fact that 625 00:40:36,400 --> 00:40:40,080 Speaker 1: these companies are fighting against even that, I think really 626 00:40:40,120 --> 00:40:46,080 Speaker 1: speaks to, I don't know, just a real lack of 627 00:40:47,440 --> 00:40:51,080 Speaker 1: ethics that people need to be aware of that. 628 00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:51,440 Speaker 2: These are not. 629 00:40:51,960 --> 00:40:54,239 Speaker 1: They've done such a good job of presenting themselves as 630 00:40:54,320 --> 00:40:59,120 Speaker 1: like people right that deserve a fair shot or whatever, 631 00:41:00,239 --> 00:41:03,360 Speaker 1: like no this Syngenta, Like one of the things in 632 00:41:03,400 --> 00:41:06,080 Speaker 1: the documents that Carrie dug up too was this that 633 00:41:06,320 --> 00:41:09,000 Speaker 1: they had created what they described as an as a 634 00:41:09,040 --> 00:41:14,480 Speaker 1: swat team too, like immediately go out and try to 635 00:41:15,120 --> 00:41:21,239 Speaker 1: harass and discredit anyone that was criticizing their products. 636 00:41:21,280 --> 00:41:23,480 Speaker 2: So like it's it's. 637 00:41:23,200 --> 00:41:28,040 Speaker 1: Just very it's very cutthroat, and it's not they're not 638 00:41:28,239 --> 00:41:31,600 Speaker 1: operating in good faith and they don't actually deserve the 639 00:41:31,600 --> 00:41:32,479 Speaker 1: benefit of the doubt. 640 00:41:32,880 --> 00:41:35,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, and Carrie Gillam would know, right, There's like she 641 00:41:35,840 --> 00:41:38,920 Speaker 2: dug up evidence of their own campaigns to try to 642 00:41:39,000 --> 00:41:39,640 Speaker 2: undermine her. 643 00:41:39,920 --> 00:41:44,560 Speaker 1: So yeah, they totally they actually took credit for in 644 00:41:44,600 --> 00:41:48,040 Speaker 1: those profiles. They totally they tried to take credit for 645 00:41:48,239 --> 00:41:52,080 Speaker 1: quote unquote getting her fired from Reuters, which didn't even happen. 646 00:41:52,280 --> 00:41:53,560 Speaker 2: She quit, you know, But. 647 00:41:55,920 --> 00:42:01,759 Speaker 1: But yeah, there it's a mess anyway, point being, the 648 00:42:01,880 --> 00:42:06,839 Speaker 1: US government is often an ally to these companies. So 649 00:42:07,040 --> 00:42:09,919 Speaker 1: I'm curious, you know, just to wrap things up here, 650 00:42:09,960 --> 00:42:14,840 Speaker 1: like do what can people do when they are butting 651 00:42:14,880 --> 00:42:18,120 Speaker 1: up against these really big systemic forces. 652 00:42:18,640 --> 00:42:25,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, so this is tricky. This is one of the 653 00:42:25,440 --> 00:42:28,560 Speaker 3: things that podcasts set out to answer. And there definitely 654 00:42:28,680 --> 00:42:33,400 Speaker 3: are some nuggets of things that people can do or 655 00:42:33,440 --> 00:42:36,040 Speaker 3: systems that to be changed at different parts of the 656 00:42:36,120 --> 00:42:41,080 Speaker 3: supply chain, and there are some you know, common enemies, 657 00:42:41,080 --> 00:42:44,120 Speaker 3: but there are some also unique issues to each part. 658 00:42:45,400 --> 00:42:49,320 Speaker 3: We basically looked at where can we make systems more efficient, 659 00:42:50,320 --> 00:42:55,200 Speaker 3: what sort of alternative replacement technologies are available, and where 660 00:42:55,360 --> 00:42:59,360 Speaker 3: systems change needed and no one will be surprised that 661 00:42:59,480 --> 00:43:01,880 Speaker 3: mor Huffa and than not. It is a system change 662 00:43:01,960 --> 00:43:05,680 Speaker 3: in fact that is needed to get us out of 663 00:43:05,719 --> 00:43:08,400 Speaker 3: this mess. And what we can do is kind of 664 00:43:08,400 --> 00:43:12,640 Speaker 3: spotlight some different examples across the world of things that 665 00:43:13,120 --> 00:43:16,920 Speaker 3: are working to sort of reverse these trends. And I 666 00:43:17,000 --> 00:43:21,920 Speaker 3: know Anna can probably speak to the example of andre 667 00:43:21,960 --> 00:43:26,400 Speaker 3: Pradesh in India as a movement to just imagine a 668 00:43:26,440 --> 00:43:29,439 Speaker 3: completely different type of farming system. And when I say 669 00:43:29,480 --> 00:43:32,080 Speaker 3: imagine a different farming system, we should keep in mind that, 670 00:43:32,280 --> 00:43:35,640 Speaker 3: you know, it was basically a little over a century 671 00:43:35,640 --> 00:43:40,360 Speaker 3: ago that we were introduced to these synthetic, fossil based inputs. 672 00:43:41,200 --> 00:43:45,200 Speaker 3: So there are things that we can kind of look 673 00:43:45,239 --> 00:43:49,839 Speaker 3: to in the past, and there are examples in the present, Yeah, 674 00:43:50,040 --> 00:43:53,759 Speaker 3: of communities practicing here. Maybe Anna, you can jump in here. 675 00:43:53,800 --> 00:43:56,359 Speaker 2: Sure, yeah, I mean you mentioned andre Pradesh. I mean 676 00:43:56,360 --> 00:43:59,080 Speaker 2: I think there is one of many, many examples around 677 00:43:59,080 --> 00:44:02,839 Speaker 2: the world of where we're seeing exciting scaling up of 678 00:44:04,120 --> 00:44:07,840 Speaker 2: farmers farmer networks showing that you do not need to 679 00:44:08,000 --> 00:44:11,680 Speaker 2: rely on these as we've described them today. You know, 680 00:44:11,719 --> 00:44:14,720 Speaker 2: these fossil fuel dependent inputs that can also be highly 681 00:44:14,760 --> 00:44:18,480 Speaker 2: impactful to health, biodiversity, et cetera. So under Pradesh, you know, 682 00:44:20,120 --> 00:44:24,640 Speaker 2: heavily agricultural state in India, farmers movement several decades ago 683 00:44:24,800 --> 00:44:28,320 Speaker 2: started organizing kind of pushing back against that chemical model 684 00:44:28,360 --> 00:44:34,640 Speaker 2: that we've been talking about and started really reviving ecological practices, 685 00:44:34,719 --> 00:44:39,680 Speaker 2: innovating ecological practices for soil fertility and past and weed management. 686 00:44:40,280 --> 00:44:43,640 Speaker 2: And today that network is more than six hundred thousand 687 00:44:43,680 --> 00:44:47,640 Speaker 2: farmers large. They call community based natural farming. There, the 688 00:44:47,719 --> 00:44:53,719 Speaker 2: government is supporting farmers to transition off of reliance on 689 00:44:53,760 --> 00:44:58,680 Speaker 2: synthetic fertilizer and toxic pesticides. And to us, it's a 690 00:44:58,680 --> 00:45:02,080 Speaker 2: great example of again and this is moving at scale, 691 00:45:02,200 --> 00:45:05,799 Speaker 2: and it's really we've done commission some research that we've 692 00:45:05,800 --> 00:45:08,880 Speaker 2: done in partnership with others to look at what are 693 00:45:08,880 --> 00:45:13,560 Speaker 2: the benefits to health, to productivity, et cetera. It's very promising. 694 00:45:14,719 --> 00:45:16,480 Speaker 2: But Amy, you asked this question on kind of what 695 00:45:16,880 --> 00:45:18,600 Speaker 2: can we do? I just wanted to come back to 696 00:45:18,640 --> 00:45:21,680 Speaker 2: that to emphasize, you know, we talk about food and 697 00:45:21,760 --> 00:45:25,160 Speaker 2: what we can do around food. You sometimes hear people say, well, 698 00:45:25,200 --> 00:45:27,319 Speaker 2: you know you vote, vote three times a day with 699 00:45:27,360 --> 00:45:30,120 Speaker 2: what you eat. You can vote with your fork. I mean, 700 00:45:30,160 --> 00:45:33,560 Speaker 2: certainly that's true for those of us lucky enough to 701 00:45:33,600 --> 00:45:37,160 Speaker 2: eat three times a day, we can make certain food choices. 702 00:45:37,239 --> 00:45:40,120 Speaker 2: We can support those farmers and producers that are trying 703 00:45:40,120 --> 00:45:42,759 Speaker 2: to get off of the pesticide treadmill, you know, that 704 00:45:42,840 --> 00:45:47,760 Speaker 2: are embracing these other practices. But of course, as important 705 00:45:47,760 --> 00:45:50,080 Speaker 2: as voting with our fork, it's voting with your vote. 706 00:45:50,120 --> 00:45:55,560 Speaker 2: You know that we can support those in our public 707 00:45:55,640 --> 00:45:59,520 Speaker 2: sector that are really trying to express these shared values 708 00:45:59,600 --> 00:46:03,600 Speaker 2: around health, action, on climate, et cetera. And so there's 709 00:46:03,800 --> 00:46:09,960 Speaker 2: great examples around the country of leaders within city, county, state, 710 00:46:10,480 --> 00:46:16,480 Speaker 2: even national agencies that are really trying to shift policy. 711 00:46:16,680 --> 00:46:19,239 Speaker 2: So I think about my colleagues and friends on the 712 00:46:19,239 --> 00:46:22,839 Speaker 2: Hawaiian Islands that has one of the highest rates of 713 00:46:23,200 --> 00:46:27,000 Speaker 2: restricted use pesticides anywhere in the country, and there's been 714 00:46:27,040 --> 00:46:30,080 Speaker 2: some really amazing leadership there at the state level to 715 00:46:30,760 --> 00:46:34,520 Speaker 2: do things like ban the use of toxic herbicides on 716 00:46:35,080 --> 00:46:38,640 Speaker 2: school campuses, for instance, on public school campuses, looking at 717 00:46:38,680 --> 00:46:42,640 Speaker 2: how to reinstate buffer zones. So if you're going to 718 00:46:42,680 --> 00:46:46,560 Speaker 2: spray these pesticides, we need buffer zones around schools and hospitals, 719 00:46:46,560 --> 00:46:50,239 Speaker 2: et cetera. And then you know the third thing, we 720 00:46:50,280 --> 00:46:52,440 Speaker 2: can do. For those of us who have any resources, 721 00:46:52,480 --> 00:46:55,000 Speaker 2: we can also vote with our dollars, so we can 722 00:46:55,000 --> 00:47:00,800 Speaker 2: think about being supporters of organizations like Pessiscide Action Network 723 00:47:00,880 --> 00:47:03,839 Speaker 2: or others that are really trying to move the needle here. So, 724 00:47:04,400 --> 00:47:09,920 Speaker 2: you know, while trying to change the world is a huge, 725 00:47:10,040 --> 00:47:13,399 Speaker 2: what often feels insurmountable task, of course, you know, there 726 00:47:13,440 --> 00:47:16,319 Speaker 2: really are ways, depending on who you are, where you are, 727 00:47:16,480 --> 00:47:19,520 Speaker 2: what your passions are, and resources are for you, for 728 00:47:19,640 --> 00:47:22,719 Speaker 2: us all to really be part of trying to make 729 00:47:22,760 --> 00:47:23,880 Speaker 2: those systems shift. 730 00:47:24,880 --> 00:47:27,399 Speaker 3: Yeah, and I just want to shout out that there 731 00:47:27,400 --> 00:47:31,960 Speaker 3: are models of production systems that don't rely on these 732 00:47:32,239 --> 00:47:37,799 Speaker 3: fossil acrochemicals and other fossil inputs that are working. There 733 00:47:37,880 --> 00:47:40,680 Speaker 3: is a question around what are the markets from more 734 00:47:40,719 --> 00:47:43,799 Speaker 3: diverse systems, And I think there's some really interesting examples 735 00:47:43,840 --> 00:47:47,360 Speaker 3: in Canada where they're experimenting with some pilot programs to 736 00:47:47,400 --> 00:47:53,200 Speaker 3: explore just like creating these foods sheds around cities where 737 00:47:53,239 --> 00:48:00,160 Speaker 3: you where the land is being purchased, and young willing farmers, 738 00:48:00,360 --> 00:48:05,240 Speaker 3: immigrants who are moving to these neighborhoods who have agricultural backgrounds, 739 00:48:06,120 --> 00:48:10,040 Speaker 3: they're finding places for people to work and produce good, 740 00:48:10,200 --> 00:48:14,800 Speaker 3: low input or even zero emission food. There's also in 741 00:48:14,840 --> 00:48:19,200 Speaker 3: the United States the Good Food Purchasing Program, which is 742 00:48:20,080 --> 00:48:22,520 Speaker 3: probably one of the best levers to really look at 743 00:48:22,560 --> 00:48:25,560 Speaker 3: the whole food system, the whole food chain, and that's 744 00:48:25,600 --> 00:48:31,960 Speaker 3: looking at food procurement and so it's working with schools, hospitals, 745 00:48:32,600 --> 00:48:35,880 Speaker 3: public agencies, and it's trying to align their food purchasing 746 00:48:36,239 --> 00:48:39,879 Speaker 3: with these different core values, not ones that are based 747 00:48:40,000 --> 00:48:42,719 Speaker 3: entirely unprofit, but ones that are trying to strengthen local 748 00:48:42,760 --> 00:48:46,480 Speaker 3: economies to provide good nutrition, to value labor and the workforce, 749 00:48:46,800 --> 00:48:51,640 Speaker 3: to value environmental sustainability and animal welfare. So I think 750 00:48:51,840 --> 00:48:54,480 Speaker 3: it's a completely different way of how the food system 751 00:48:54,520 --> 00:48:57,799 Speaker 3: is largely operated, which is how can you produce more 752 00:48:57,920 --> 00:49:00,920 Speaker 3: and keep food affordable? And I think we've we've been 753 00:49:00,960 --> 00:49:03,600 Speaker 3: able to produce more calories, but I don't think we've 754 00:49:03,640 --> 00:49:07,080 Speaker 3: necessarily kept food affordable, and we certainly haven't kept it 755 00:49:07,200 --> 00:49:12,160 Speaker 3: safe or without tremendous costs to the environment. And also, 756 00:49:12,719 --> 00:49:15,680 Speaker 3: as we've heard throughout, humans who are working across the 757 00:49:15,760 --> 00:49:16,319 Speaker 3: value chain