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Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of I Heart Radio. Welcome

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Speaker 1: back to the show Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always

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Speaker 1: so much for tuning in, and a special thank you

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Speaker 1: to people who reached out and checked on whether or

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Speaker 1: not my voice would return. It's not, but it's there,

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Speaker 1: and I'm very grateful to our own Mr Noel Brown

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Speaker 1: and our super producer Max Williams for Barry, there's that

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Speaker 1: golden voice. Who was that golden voice? Jeez, you know

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Speaker 1: out of that golden boy. We're glad to have you back, buddy.

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Speaker 1: Thanks man. You know, Um, we don't talk about it

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Speaker 1: too much on air, but um, for any show that Max,

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Speaker 1: Noel and I do, uh, we end up becoming pretty

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Speaker 1: close friends because we worked together all the time. And

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Speaker 1: I just want to thank you guys so much for

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Speaker 1: being in my corner. Thankfully it wasn't COVID, but couldn't

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Speaker 1: work with a better bunch of people. And and um, Noel,

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Speaker 1: you and I have talked about it in the past

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Speaker 1: when we're hanging because we are actually friends and we

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Speaker 1: do hang out outside of the show. We've talked about

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Speaker 1: how weird and extraordinary it is to genuinely vibe with

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Speaker 1: pretty much everyone you work with. I think we're immensely fortunate.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I mean, you know, it's no coincidence that,

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Speaker 1: like most of my and your and uh, many of

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Speaker 1: our friends are people that we work with, or we've

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Speaker 1: been lucky enough to bring people that are our friends

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Speaker 1: were our friends into the work family. So it all

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Speaker 1: kind of lines kind of blurred. Like I knew Max,

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Speaker 1: you know, uh and his brother Alex before they worked

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Speaker 1: for us, and now we just get to hang out more.

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Speaker 1: And uh, you guys, are you guys in particular not

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Speaker 1: a ding on anyone else who work with but you

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Speaker 1: guys in particular is such a such a gift to

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Speaker 1: this show. And I'm always grateful to hang out. So um,

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Speaker 1: the gift that keeps on giving, but not like in

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Speaker 1: the Herpes kind of way, right, and not in like

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Speaker 1: the not in the short form animation gift way though,

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Speaker 1: the gift that keeps on gifting I think would be

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Speaker 1: interesting anyway. So if it didn't gift, it wouldn't if

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Speaker 1: it didn't keep on gifting, it wouldn't be a proper gift.

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Speaker 1: That is a very good point, Noel, That is a

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Speaker 1: very good point. So we're gonna be talking about some

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Speaker 1: very good points today with some help from one of

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Speaker 1: our excellent research associates and Mr Zach Williams. When previously

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Speaker 1: we left you without a dope beat two step too,

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Speaker 1: we were talking about the end of the world as

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Speaker 1: imagined by a man named William Millard now Noel Max.

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Speaker 1: When we ended part one, we had set up some

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Speaker 1: pretty in depth context about Miller's origin story and about

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Speaker 1: his move from a small town preacher to a man

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Speaker 1: obsessed with calculating the return of Jesus Christ, to his

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Speaker 1: role as a pop culture phenomenon of the time. Really

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Speaker 1: he was a superstar. Uh, And things got incredibly um oh,

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Speaker 1: they just escalated as he got closer and closer to

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Speaker 1: his imagined prediction the second Coming of Christ. But man

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Speaker 1: wet teased, we teased, how um how other denominations established

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Speaker 1: Christian denominations started to clap back at Miller because, like

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Speaker 1: where we leave off, let's see, churches started saying, if

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Speaker 1: you're a traveling preacher and you talk about Millerism, you

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Speaker 1: can't preach here. And then they started cracking down on

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Speaker 1: people who, um, who are just church members who might

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Speaker 1: read newspapers or pamphlets about Millers and I mean and

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Speaker 1: in a doomsday theology by any other name is still

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Speaker 1: as is depressing. Maybe they didn't call it Millerism directly

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Speaker 1: or claimed to be miller Rites, Like I kind of wonder, like,

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Speaker 1: would you even claim that it would be more just

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Speaker 1: kind of like you know, uh, something people would understand

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Speaker 1: based on what your theology is. I don't know you

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Speaker 1: necessarily even make that some sort of badge that you'd

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Speaker 1: wear around. But I imagine that anyone starting to preach

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Speaker 1: these end times kind of prophecies would start to be

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Speaker 1: ostracized to some degree. In fact, there's a great example

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Speaker 1: of a church elder by the name of Levi Stockman

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Speaker 1: who absolutely refused to stop preaching this doom and gloom stuff,

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Speaker 1: I mean Doom's Day and glooms Day stuff, I guess.

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Speaker 1: And this, this this went hard in terms of like

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Speaker 1: church leaders and in the way these these folks who

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Speaker 1: are these hardliner Millerites retreated. He fell deathly ill with

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Speaker 1: with the consumption. Then you described it as as the

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Speaker 1: doc holiday disease. He was our he was our huckleberry,

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Speaker 1: somebody's huckleberry. He was at the very least the huckleberry

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Speaker 1: of his wife and child who were in desperate danger

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Speaker 1: of being left penniless because the church officials, you know,

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Speaker 1: he was an elder of the church who was therefore

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Speaker 1: kind of his livelihood was tied to their rulings, were

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Speaker 1: threatening to you know, strip him of his pension if

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Speaker 1: he didn't stop talking all that job, yeah, which meant

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Speaker 1: that his wife and his children would not have any

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Speaker 1: pension benefits, all but condemning them to the poorhouse. Yet

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Speaker 1: Stockman stuck to his ideological theological guns and as a

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Speaker 1: result he was expelled from the ministry officially, and just

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Speaker 1: a few weeks later he died of consumption. This this

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Speaker 1: is one example that shows us the larger, the larger horizon.

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Speaker 1: Here by the summer of eighteen three, Millerite Adventist and

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Speaker 1: the more established Protestant denominations of Christianity are at loggerheads.

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Speaker 1: They're super tense, and a lot of Adventists, many of

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Speaker 1: whom already had like their own membership and an established denomination. Right,

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Speaker 1: they might be like Methodists, they might be Protestants, but

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Speaker 1: they're also Millerites, and they started saying, well, should we

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Speaker 1: get out of our membership with our current denomination. They

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Speaker 1: almost did, but an announcement went out in one of

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Speaker 1: those publications that we talked about in part one. This

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Speaker 1: one was called the Signs of the Times, and it

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Speaker 1: encouraged them to stay put, and it said, look, don't

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Speaker 1: run away, because you are already embedded in this community.

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Speaker 1: So stay there, and while you're there, start talking about Millerism,

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Speaker 1: start talking about how Jesus Christ is on the way

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Speaker 1: and very soon. We want to thank lineage journey dot

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Speaker 1: com for their excellent article a snapshot of the Millerite

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Speaker 1: movement from eighteen thirty nine to eighteen forty four. No

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Speaker 1: spoilers just yet. Uh. And you would think the Millerite

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Speaker 1: apparatus suing for peace would have maybe calm those tensions somewhat,

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Speaker 1: but it wasn't. It wasn't enough. That's why things like

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Speaker 1: the Congregational Journal, another publication, went out on August twelfth,

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Speaker 1: eighteen forty three, and put this hit piece out on

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Speaker 1: the front page that said, look, the second advent God

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Speaker 1: Spool is malarkey. And then later that year, also eighteen

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Speaker 1: forty three, they published an article by Nathaniel Wells that

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Speaker 1: was a takedown of everything Miller had written about and

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Speaker 1: lectured about. And this became a smear campaign. Honestly, regardless

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Speaker 1: of what you think about Christianity or or differences between denominations,

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Speaker 1: there was no real civil discussion of his weird math

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Speaker 1: that we mentioned earlier, or his his philosophically. No one

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Speaker 1: was talking about that. No one was adding up the numbers. Instead,

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Speaker 1: they were jumping to third base and saying, look, all

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Speaker 1: these Millerites, any second Adventist is a fanatic. Their leaders

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Speaker 1: are dangerous to society. They want you to think the

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Speaker 1: world is ending, and they're mad, they're lunatics. Yeah, I mean,

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Speaker 1: you know it's it's I kind of get it. Just

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Speaker 1: you know, it's like, can we find some silver lining here,

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Speaker 1: especially given that like the dude was just kind of

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Speaker 1: digging looking for he was kind of what you call

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Speaker 1: that Ben, when you like sort of have like a

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Speaker 1: a an outcome that you're sort of searching for, Uh,

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Speaker 1: you find ways of of of finding the information that

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Speaker 1: validates your your pre your foregone conclusion confirmation bias. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: nail on that, that's the one. Would you would you

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Speaker 1: agree there's a little bit of that going on with Miller?

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Speaker 1: I mean, or or do you think he? I can't

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Speaker 1: remember exactly didn't he sort of like always have a

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Speaker 1: bit of a doomsday mindset around religion, or did he

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Speaker 1: just figure that he he felt like he cracked the code. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's it's a little bit of column a little bit

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Speaker 1: of column B. Because he was originally more of a

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Speaker 1: deist when he was introduced to the idea of a

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Speaker 1: god who made everything right, a god who exists who

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Speaker 1: made everything. But it's sort of too high level now

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Speaker 1: to be con earned with the day to day stuff.

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Speaker 1: And then when he had his crisis of faith and

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Speaker 1: he encountered these revelations, he became obsessed with figuring out

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Speaker 1: exactly when the messionic figure Jesus Christ Jesus H. Christ

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Speaker 1: by some accounts, uh, mostly mostly stand up comics would return.

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Speaker 1: And uh, And so I think that we see established

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Speaker 1: denominations grappling with a couple of issues here. First, this

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Speaker 1: takes away socio political control from these established denominations, and

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Speaker 1: yeah it is in second, if it's all gonna come

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Speaker 1: crashing down anyway, then what's the point. And like, why

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Speaker 1: believe one over another in terms of like, you know,

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Speaker 1: them being able to exercise control over this earthly realm.

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Speaker 1: If you put all the emphasis on the afterlife exclusively.

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Speaker 1: Then how are you going to control old people and

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Speaker 1: amend them to your will? Right? Right? So why do

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Speaker 1: I need to put uh ten percent tythe on my

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Speaker 1: income to build a church that's not being constructed intol eight,

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Speaker 1: you know what I mean? So this is a problem

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Speaker 1: for them. But I would argue secondly, there's also the

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Speaker 1: issue of there there's also the issue of putting an

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Speaker 1: expiration date on things, right, And it's an expiration date

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Speaker 1: we have to remember that's coming very soon. And this

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Speaker 1: was making no mistakes, sowing some amount of chaos in society.

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Speaker 1: There was one, this anonymous report. We couldn't really find

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Speaker 1: the specifics here, but according to the Dartmouth article we

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Speaker 1: looked at in part one, there was supposedly a selectman

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Speaker 1: a committee member in some town in New Hampshire. This

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Speaker 1: is a secular, you know, local municipal thing. He was

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Speaker 1: a miller, right, and he resigned. He quit his job

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Speaker 1: and said, look, I need to spend the rest of

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Speaker 1: the year getting my affairs in order for the end

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Speaker 1: of the world. Imagine quitting your job for the end

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Speaker 1: of the world. Imagine like imagine we get an email

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Speaker 1: or a text from Max one day and Max says, hey, guys,

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Speaker 1: I've been reading some stuff. I've been on some blogs,

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Speaker 1: and I'm pretty sure the world as we know it

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Speaker 1: is ending in September. So I'm gonna just take some

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Speaker 1: time and play sky Rim what once more, get my

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Speaker 1: house in order? All right, my sky ramows guys, I

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Speaker 1: I guess you haven't picked up on that, but you

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Speaker 1: know I'm disappearing in September. I'm going off to Seattle

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Speaker 1: in Portland. I mean, I wasn't gonna come on straight

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Speaker 1: forward and stays to freak you guys out, but you

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Speaker 1: know there there might be a reason behind that. Guys.

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Speaker 1: All right, we're gonna put a pin in this for now.

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Speaker 1: We're gonna have a suit Arius talk off air. But

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Speaker 1: in the meantime, Ben, this is where I start asking

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Speaker 1: myself the question of what differentiates a religion from a cult.

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Speaker 1: When you start talking about these sort of like doomsday

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Speaker 1: cults and people that are rallying around they perceived end

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Speaker 1: of the world and it is sort of more of

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Speaker 1: a niche kind of thing, is that what you'd consider

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Speaker 1: a cult? Are we starting to get into more cult

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Speaker 1: like territory here that is maybe more rallying around a

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Speaker 1: single figure. Also, as we know, cults don't necessarily have

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Speaker 1: to rally around a single figure. You can rally around

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Speaker 1: like an idea. Um, what do you think though, is

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Speaker 1: is this is this sort of an example of an

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Speaker 1: early version of kind of a doomsday cult. That's a

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Speaker 1: great question. Yeah, it's uh one of early America's very

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Speaker 1: first doomsday movements for sure. And I'm so glad you asked, because, um,

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Speaker 1: you know, we've worked extensively on stuff they wants you

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Speaker 1: to know. Another show we do investigating various cults, like

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Speaker 1: add nonok Tars sex cult in Turkey that's out now.

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Speaker 1: We've also looked at how colts are formed, and one

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Speaker 1: big misconception about cults is that they always are oriented

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Speaker 1: around a religious belief. Multi level marketing schemes can be cults.

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Speaker 1: Life coaching groups and fitness groups can be cults. Uh No,

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Speaker 1: ding on you CrossFit just don't feel like after email us.

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Speaker 1: And one thing that's interesting, this is a little bit

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Speaker 1: of a tangent, but if you want to understand cults,

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Speaker 1: I would say look toward tactics rather than ideology. The

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Speaker 1: ideology is fluid and it does the ideology doesn't really matter.

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Speaker 1: One of the best analyzes of what creates a cult

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Speaker 1: is something called the BITE model, which was created by

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Speaker 1: Steve Hassan, and it's really a model for authoritarian control.

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Speaker 1: What differentiates a cult from a legion, I would say

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Speaker 1: would be the tactics applied the authoritarian control. BITE stands

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Speaker 1: for behavior control, information control, thought control, and emotional control.

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Speaker 1: And you can read a full list of of what

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Speaker 1: that means, but they're all the hits. Separation from your family,

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Speaker 1: you know what I mean, separation from information from the

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Speaker 1: outside world, the idea of thought crime, the idea of

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Speaker 1: manipulating the ranges of emotions that people or followers can

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Speaker 1: experience without being punished. I actually I will put this

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Speaker 1: in our chat because this is such a great link

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Speaker 1: for everyone. And if you feel a friend is involved

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Speaker 1: in a cultic organization of some sort, look at the

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Speaker 1: bite bite model and see what kind of control is

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Speaker 1: being exercised upon them. But it's funny though, because they

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Speaker 1: were talking about you know again, like sometimes there's a

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Speaker 1: little bit of confusion between like what is a religion

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Speaker 1: versus what is a cult? And Uh, to me, it's

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Speaker 1: like if people are leaving a more let's say traditional religion,

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Speaker 1: like a regular Protestant Christianity and going for this like

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Speaker 1: Adventist Millerism, that could ostracize them from their families. They

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Speaker 1: could be you know, treated as outsiders and shunned and

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Speaker 1: fully be like all about that. It's like, it's fine,

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Speaker 1: you know, it's gonna change my life, but I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: I'm putting my money where my mouth is and I'm

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Speaker 1: committing to this. So what we don't necessarily have specific

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Speaker 1: examples of this per se outside of this elder you

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Speaker 1: know who's he ultimately died um as a result of

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Speaker 1: his belief system. So it's a little I don't know,

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Speaker 1: maybe we'll put a pin in that one too, because

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Speaker 1: I think it's a it's more of an interesting question

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Speaker 1: than it is something that we necessarily have an answer for. Because,

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Speaker 1: as we know, many religious movements some people call cults,

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Speaker 1: other people call like, you know, religious community or religious movements.

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Speaker 1: So it is it is a little bit of a

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Speaker 1: kind of gray area sometime. But Ben, do you have

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Speaker 1: an opinion on whether Millerism is a cult or just

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Speaker 1: an offshoot of a religious movement. Yeah, that's a good question. Um,

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Speaker 1: I think I will also put a pin in that,

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Speaker 1: because it's a bit of a sticky wicket. Maybe you,

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Speaker 1: fellow ridiculous historians, can give us your take at the end.

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Speaker 1: We have some plot twist ahead. I would say that

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Speaker 1: another like definition of a cult that I just sort

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Speaker 1: of made up along the years is really it's a

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Speaker 1: matter of time, right, because you know, one person's cult

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Speaker 1: is another person's revealed religion with a tomb and everything.

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Speaker 1: So maybe maybe you're a cult until you make it

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Speaker 1: past the first two hundred years or something like that.

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Speaker 1: Again totally made up, but but okay, so we know that. Um,

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Speaker 1: we know that there were other reports of people leaving

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Speaker 1: their day to day lives. The Sentinel reported uh that

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Speaker 1: same year that two Justice commissions who were working in

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Speaker 1: New Hampshire also left their jobs. And we're supposed to

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Speaker 1: join up with the Millerites and said, hey, the world's ending,

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Speaker 1: I don't need to go to work anymore. You know,

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Speaker 1: it gets really ugly too, because people started saying that

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Speaker 1: this Millerite movement or Millerism was also responsible for suicides.

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Speaker 1: They were saying, some people are so certain that the

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Speaker 1: world is ending that they are taking their own lives.

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Speaker 1: But as you and I found nol this was often

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Speaker 1: not based on uh not based on really solid evidence.

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Speaker 1: We actually have an excerpt from the Boston Evening Journal

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Speaker 1: which was reprinted by the Sentinel. That's right. The headline

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Speaker 1: is end of the World died in Pelham, New Hampshire.

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Speaker 1: John H. Shortage, aged about fifty five. Mr s was

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Speaker 1: formerly a merchant of respectable standing in Portsmouth, but by

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Speaker 1: misfortunes in business, had suffered much from almost incessant mental derangement.

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Speaker 1: On the day of his death, he was imagining the

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Speaker 1: time of the Second Advent was to take place. He

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Speaker 1: had a garb made for the occasion, and with this

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Speaker 1: he was waiting until became impatient. He climbed to the

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Speaker 1: top of a high tree. There, mantled at his long

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Speaker 1: white ascension robe. He made one aspiring effort but was

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Speaker 1: precipitated to the ground and instantly died from a broken neck. Okay,

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Speaker 1: once again, whenever we read these kinds of things on

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Speaker 1: the show been I'm just always taken by the ass

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Speaker 1: around the elbow approach to get to like a really

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Speaker 1: simple thing. It's like ed he fell out of a

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Speaker 1: tree and died, and instead it's there mantled in his

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Speaker 1: long wide ascension robe. He made one aspiring effort but

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Speaker 1: was precipitated to the ground and instantly died from a

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Speaker 1: broken neck. I mean, I'm saying I think it's wonderful,

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Speaker 1: but it is funny to see the the literary gymnastics

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Speaker 1: that that happens sometimes in these older like editorial pieces.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, they're feeling themselves for sure. I agree. Also

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Speaker 1: that snarky last sentence that says maybe he was jumping,

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Speaker 1: maybe he was trying to fly to heaven. That's really

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Speaker 1: rude to someone who has died, Yes, exactly now, it's

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Speaker 1: the subtext is dripping with with sarka. And this also

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Speaker 1: props to the Sentinel because they did say this was

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Speaker 1: doubted by the local paper. They're in Portsmouth and Portsmouth Journal.

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Speaker 1: But stories like this they get eyeballs. People like reading

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Speaker 1: about these things. Is this same reason people slow down

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Speaker 1: to watch car accidents in traffic Today these stories were

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Speaker 1: reprinted across the Northeast. And again we've talked in the

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Speaker 1: past about how the big red meat will run on

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Speaker 1: the cover of a newspaper on Monday, and the retraction

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Speaker 1: or correction will be in the back of the newspaper.

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Speaker 1: On Tuesday, and no one will read it, so nobody's

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Speaker 1: really fact checking these, and nobody bothered to look into

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Speaker 1: the background of the people who were allegedly committing suicide.

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Speaker 1: For this, It's kind of like when you hear the

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Speaker 1: old argument about video games making people violent or something,

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Speaker 1: or music making people violent. What you see in a

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Speaker 1: lot of those cases is the person who committed an

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Speaker 1: act of violence was already maybe not in the best

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Speaker 1: place mentally, right, and they just happened to play a

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Speaker 1: video game, or they happened to enjoy a certain genre

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Speaker 1: of music. Yeah, some people just need a little push

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Speaker 1: off the cliff or out of a tree. Um. It

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Speaker 1: really is kind of something that was probably going to

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Speaker 1: happen one way or another sooner and or later, and

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Speaker 1: then it's easy to craft and narrow around it, which

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Speaker 1: is clearly what was happening, because all of these suicides

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Speaker 1: were beginning to be kind of placed on the shoulders

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Speaker 1: of Miller, based almost entirely on like anecdotal evidence, like

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Speaker 1: the kind of thing we just saw reprinted. And then

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Speaker 1: people realize, publishers and journalists realized that they could sell

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Speaker 1: a lot of papers doing this, and this exacerbated the problem.

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Speaker 1: You know that all journalistic catchphrase it falls out of trees,

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Speaker 1: it leads, Yeah, or one of the popular statements that

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Speaker 1: papers throughout New England which said that Miller frightened old

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Speaker 1: women by scores into fits and young you know, old

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Speaker 1: children half out of their wits. Uh great. Yeah, So

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Speaker 1: so we know a little bit about human psychology, which

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Speaker 1: hasn't changed for thousands and thousands of years. Obviously, we

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Speaker 1: always say people throughout history were just as smart and

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Speaker 1: as vulnerable as the of us tuning in today. Well,

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Speaker 1: because I mean, you know, I remember growing up in

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Speaker 1: the Methodist Church, and I went through a period of

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Speaker 1: being terrified of of of going to hell, and of

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Speaker 1: of the devil and sin and all that stuff. And

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Speaker 1: then you you kind of goes even further and the

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Speaker 1: guilt gets piled on even harder with like Catholicism and

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Speaker 1: the idea of you know, God being this kind of

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Speaker 1: vengeful God. But this really like you know, takes the

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Speaker 1: cake in terms of like striking fear into the hearts

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Speaker 1: of followers, right, I mean it's like, not only do

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Speaker 1: you have to worry about the afterlife, you kind of

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Speaker 1: gotta worry about fire and brimstone coming here to where

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Speaker 1: you live, Like it's almost like a war is coming.

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Speaker 1: I just can't imagine living with that, you know, kind

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Speaker 1: of like it. I think some people probably took it

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Speaker 1: as a comfort in some ways and wanted others to

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Speaker 1: know and repent, because they believe the only way to

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Speaker 1: save your soul is to repent in advance of this

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Speaker 1: apocalypse of this you know, uh, this doomsday. But I

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Speaker 1: just can't imagine it like being a very pleasant existence. No, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's a it's a hard sell to write act now.

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Speaker 1: But what what you're talking about with your early time

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Speaker 1: in the church reminds me of a a personal story.

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Speaker 1: I will share it. It's quite brief. When I was

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Speaker 1: a kid, for a time I was, I was forced

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Speaker 1: to attend a church I won't name the denomination, and

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Speaker 1: I think I just didn't pick up the right vibe

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Speaker 1: they were trying to convey because when I learned that,

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Speaker 1: I learned that Jesus Christ and again this is not

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Speaker 1: dinging on Christians, is dinging on me as a stupid kid.

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Speaker 1: I learned that there was this guy named Jesus Christ,

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Speaker 1: and at one day in your life, he would find you,

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Speaker 1: he would get you, he would change you. And before then,

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Speaker 1: the only creatures I had heard capable of doing this

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Speaker 1: sort of stuff we're boogeim in. So I used to

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Speaker 1: stay up at night thinking Jesus Christ could be anywhere.

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Speaker 1: He could be in my closet, he could be under

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Speaker 1: my bed, and I couldn't let my guard down because

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Speaker 1: he would get me. That wouldn't be me anymore. Um,

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Speaker 1: picture young ben bolan U with the uh Sunday school

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Speaker 1: teacher trying to figure out how to both correct, reassure,

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Speaker 1: and at the same time punish this wildly paranoid child.

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Speaker 1: What the patients of a saint, Well, that's the Sunday

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Speaker 1: school teacher at least. But the reason we're bringing up

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Speaker 1: psychology and bring up psychology because we know that in general,

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Speaker 1: when people have beliefs that are emotionally based and very

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Speaker 1: close to what they see as their identity, attacking those

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Speaker 1: beliefs doesn't tend to get them to question those beliefs.

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Speaker 1: It makes them double down. So it should be no

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Speaker 1: surprise that attacks on people who believed in Millerism only

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Speaker 1: made them double down. They went further into the extremities

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Speaker 1: of their school of thought they started as a result

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Speaker 1: of this persecution in the press and the smear campaigns.

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Speaker 1: They the Millerites started writing to Miller, finding him button

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Speaker 1: holding him in person, and saying, look, we need more

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Speaker 1: details about exactly when Jesus is returning. And by this

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Speaker 1: time in eighty three they thought they finally got their answer.

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Speaker 1: They narrowed the date down to a specific day, which

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Speaker 1: Miller had not done before. He had only made a

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Speaker 1: window of time when he was pressed for it. And

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Speaker 1: so it came to pass that after a few different

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Speaker 1: pitches and brainstorming, the Millerite movement believed that Jesus Christ

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Speaker 1: would return to Earth on October twenty two, eighteen forty four.

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Speaker 1: And by this time there were somewhere between fifty thousand

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Speaker 1: to a hundred thousand active Miller rights in the US

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Speaker 1: and in Canada. Most of them were in England and

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Speaker 1: New York. So imagine all of a sudden, You're not

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Speaker 1: a Miller right, right, but all of a sudden you here.

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Speaker 1: It's like a hundred thousand people coming in unison and saying,

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Speaker 1: oh watch out. October twenty two, eighteen forty four, that's

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Speaker 1: when it goes down. They've got their expiration date. And

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Speaker 1: this is I think what we were teasing earlier and all,

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Speaker 1: if the world ended in October of eighteen forty four,

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Speaker 1: how on earth are we here in a making this podcast? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean somebody what we whisk the expression even using

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Speaker 1: ben sort of weird math um. Again, it's sort of

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Speaker 1: a hallmark of a lot of these kind of doomsday

427
00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:49,800
Speaker 1: theologies where there's uh an end date, you know, an

428
00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:55,280
Speaker 1: expiration date for humanity. Inevitably, you gotta pass it. Things

429
00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:57,840
Speaker 1: don't go as expected, you gotta find a way to

430
00:27:57,880 --> 00:28:00,280
Speaker 1: pass the buck and say, oh, here is it was

431
00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:03,920
Speaker 1: an honest mistake. And here's why. The biggest and funniest

432
00:28:04,040 --> 00:28:06,199
Speaker 1: version of this, I think is in the Church of

433
00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:09,359
Speaker 1: the sub Genius, which is a fake cult, a mock cult.

434
00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:11,440
Speaker 1: But then again, it's one of these ones that has

435
00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:13,199
Speaker 1: taken on such a life of its own that some

436
00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:15,720
Speaker 1: people are really into it. Um. It's it's all kind

437
00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:19,200
Speaker 1: of a satirical sort of like back in Alien kind

438
00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:21,359
Speaker 1: of society of of folks that like to you know,

439
00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:24,040
Speaker 1: smoke a lot of weed and live kind of openly

440
00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:27,000
Speaker 1: hippie sort of sexual lives and and do these weird

441
00:28:27,119 --> 00:28:29,960
Speaker 1: parties they have called X Day and different like gatherings

442
00:28:30,119 --> 00:28:34,440
Speaker 1: every year, multiple ones across the country. Um, but their profit.

443
00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:37,160
Speaker 1: You know, Bob Dobbs Jr. Bob Dobbs, he he had

444
00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:40,880
Speaker 1: a doomsday prediction as well, or at least when the

445
00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:43,360
Speaker 1: these aliens are gonna come and and you know, bring

446
00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:46,680
Speaker 1: all the sub genius up into their mothership. Maybe I'm

447
00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:48,800
Speaker 1: giving this not quite right, but the point is they

448
00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:50,680
Speaker 1: justified it with oh is he was looking at it

449
00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:53,280
Speaker 1: upside down, and then so if you look at it

450
00:28:53,360 --> 00:28:55,640
Speaker 1: right side up, the date becomes or what it should

451
00:28:55,680 --> 00:28:57,600
Speaker 1: have been that day becomes like thousands of years in

452
00:28:57,640 --> 00:28:59,880
Speaker 1: the future. So it's easy. That was an easy one

453
00:28:59,880 --> 00:29:02,360
Speaker 1: to pass the buck with, right. And this was a

454
00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:05,680
Speaker 1: social crisis in the United States and to a degree

455
00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:10,680
Speaker 1: in Canada at the time because spoiler alert, folks, Miller's

456
00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:16,680
Speaker 1: calculations seem to be incorrect. And we've had well more

457
00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:21,560
Speaker 1: than a century to think about that. Uh. As far

458
00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:24,040
Speaker 1: as we can tell, there was not a second coming

459
00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:28,600
Speaker 1: on Occouber twenty second, eighteen forty four. This became something

460
00:29:28,680 --> 00:29:39,680
Speaker 1: called the Great Disappointment. When I say social crisis, what

461
00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:43,560
Speaker 1: we mean is that numerous people gave up their farms,

462
00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:47,000
Speaker 1: they quit their jobs, they sold off their earthly possessions.

463
00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:49,960
Speaker 1: They thought they were on a one way ticket to heaven.

464
00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:54,840
Speaker 1: There were women in Worcester, Massachusetts who were giving away

465
00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:58,760
Speaker 1: their jewelry, They were getting rid of their clothing, they

466
00:29:58,840 --> 00:30:01,400
Speaker 1: cut off their hair are a lot of Miller Rights

467
00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:06,680
Speaker 1: started making these white gowns for themselves and sadly shades

468
00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:09,840
Speaker 1: of heaven. Heaven's Gate another cult that would come much later.

469
00:30:10,280 --> 00:30:15,040
Speaker 1: They called these gowns ascension robes. People in Groton, Massachusetts

470
00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:20,760
Speaker 1: actually climbed nearby Mount Wassachusetts to await the Second Coming,

471
00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:25,320
Speaker 1: and there was you know, they're heartbreaking human interest stories.

472
00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:28,880
Speaker 1: There was one older guy in Harvard, mass who couldn't

473
00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:31,160
Speaker 1: get all the way up to the mountain due to

474
00:30:31,520 --> 00:30:34,880
Speaker 1: some physical restrictions, so he climbed to the top of

475
00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:38,600
Speaker 1: the tallest apple tree he owned. Uh And there were

476
00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:43,080
Speaker 1: so many stories of people throughout New England climbing on rooftops,

477
00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:47,240
Speaker 1: any peak of natural elevation, just so it could be

478
00:30:47,280 --> 00:30:51,720
Speaker 1: in their mind easier to lift them to the sky,

479
00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:58,480
Speaker 1: all of them waiting for October. October passes. You'll see

480
00:30:58,840 --> 00:31:03,200
Speaker 1: that a lot of people in Austin, Hartford, Cincinnati, Pennsylvania,

481
00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:09,400
Speaker 1: on and on they were waiting in various places for

482
00:31:09,480 --> 00:31:12,080
Speaker 1: the end of the world in the Second Coming, and

483
00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:14,240
Speaker 1: a lot of them got together on the twenty three

484
00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:19,440
Speaker 1: October because there was still some debate about the exact day,

485
00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:22,680
Speaker 1: and they said, maybe it'll be you know, just like

486
00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:25,960
Speaker 1: people today who are waiting on a delivery in the

487
00:31:26,040 --> 00:31:28,800
Speaker 1: mail during the pandemic. They're like, well, maybe it's like

488
00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:34,400
Speaker 1: you know, heavenly supply chain issue. So midnight comes, don comes, noon,

489
00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:40,920
Speaker 1: maybe sundown, and the days passed uneventfully. Some people wait

490
00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:46,080
Speaker 1: for multiple days, and some of them, just like you said, no,

491
00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:50,800
Speaker 1: some of them start to say, well, we've got a regroup.

492
00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:54,520
Speaker 1: Everybody's making fun of us, and were we feel pretty down.

493
00:31:55,280 --> 00:31:59,720
Speaker 1: Miller himself, by the way, is still alive and he's

494
00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:02,680
Speaker 1: been game. Okay, maybe I got some part of the

495
00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:05,280
Speaker 1: math wrong, you know what I mean, because again, he

496
00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:09,479
Speaker 1: really believed in this. He wasn't trying to get I know,

497
00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:11,239
Speaker 1: and I know I've been sort of toying with that

498
00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:13,920
Speaker 1: idea and and in experimenting with this whole idea of

499
00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:17,360
Speaker 1: like the huckster versus the true believer, and uh, it's true,

500
00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:19,560
Speaker 1: he really wasn't getting trying to get money. And then

501
00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:23,520
Speaker 1: I don't know, I guess it's true. I guess you're right.

502
00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:26,440
Speaker 1: He really did. But he really was a true believer. Um,

503
00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:28,560
Speaker 1: he really did think he cracked some kind of you know,

504
00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:31,320
Speaker 1: mystical code, and he just wanted to spread the word

505
00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:33,600
Speaker 1: of what he knew. So he really was trying to,

506
00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:37,520
Speaker 1: like to understand what went wrong. Yeah, he really was.

507
00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:41,640
Speaker 1: And he would continue waiting for the end of the

508
00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:44,560
Speaker 1: world until he passes away in eighteen forty nine. But

509
00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:48,080
Speaker 1: as this happens, this thing we call the Great Disappointment,

510
00:32:48,440 --> 00:32:51,840
Speaker 1: We've got to go back to our great pr man

511
00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:57,600
Speaker 1: propagandist Joshua V. Himes, who really pulled the levers of

512
00:32:57,880 --> 00:33:03,760
Speaker 1: mass media to popular as Millerism. He continued publishing The

513
00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:07,880
Speaker 1: Advent Herald well into the eighteen fifties, and then he

514
00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:12,840
Speaker 1: went west and became an Episcopal priest. I believe for

515
00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:14,840
Speaker 1: a lot of people when this day came and passed,

516
00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:21,280
Speaker 1: it was this tremendous, bitter disappointment, almost a tragedy beyond words.

517
00:33:21,560 --> 00:33:24,600
Speaker 1: They felt they had given up everything for their religion,

518
00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:28,200
Speaker 1: and in a secular sense they very much had, and

519
00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:34,920
Speaker 1: they started praying. You can read again from the excellent

520
00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:38,680
Speaker 1: Dartmouth College Library bulletin article The End of the World

521
00:33:38,680 --> 00:33:43,080
Speaker 1: by Gary Waite, You can read in full a recounting

522
00:33:43,120 --> 00:33:48,640
Speaker 1: of this that sounds a lot like a prayer, Come

523
00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:52,120
Speaker 1: Lord Jesus, and come quickly. But he did not come.

524
00:33:52,520 --> 00:33:56,160
Speaker 1: And now to turn again to the cares, perplexities and

525
00:33:56,240 --> 00:33:59,320
Speaker 1: dangers of life, and full view of jeering and reviling

526
00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:03,040
Speaker 1: u leavers who scoffed as never before, was a terrible

527
00:34:03,080 --> 00:34:07,360
Speaker 1: trial of faith and patience. When Elder Himes visited Waterbury, Vermont,

528
00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:10,319
Speaker 1: a short time after the passing of the time and

529
00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:13,880
Speaker 1: stated that the Brethren should prepare for another cold winter,

530
00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:17,480
Speaker 1: my feelings were almost uncontrollable. I left the place of

531
00:34:17,560 --> 00:34:20,799
Speaker 1: meeting and wept like a child. And this was an

532
00:34:20,840 --> 00:34:26,080
Speaker 1: experience shared by many people following the Millerite movement. William Miller,

533
00:34:26,120 --> 00:34:31,200
Speaker 1: for himself, did not He was confused, but he he

534
00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:36,440
Speaker 1: didn't give up his faith, his certitude that the second

535
00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:40,600
Speaker 1: coming of Christ could be predicted, and he held this

536
00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:44,200
Speaker 1: belief despite public ridicule in the years that followed, all

537
00:34:44,200 --> 00:34:48,480
Speaker 1: the way to his death on December twenty eight, forty nine.

538
00:34:48,680 --> 00:34:52,399
Speaker 1: On his gravestone is the inscription, but go thou thy

539
00:34:52,480 --> 00:34:55,560
Speaker 1: way till the end be for thou shalt rest and

540
00:34:55,680 --> 00:34:58,760
Speaker 1: stand in thy lots at the end of days, which

541
00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:01,600
Speaker 1: as many of us in the audience may recognize, is

542
00:35:01,680 --> 00:35:05,799
Speaker 1: from Daniel twelve thirteen. It might surprise you now at

543
00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:11,520
Speaker 1: this point, folks, to realize that Adventist theology has continued.

544
00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:15,920
Speaker 1: The movement fell apart. Joshua Vie Himes tried to raise

545
00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:19,520
Speaker 1: money for people had given away all their stuff. William

546
00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:26,040
Speaker 1: Miller died largely forgotten, but a mill wright, a teenager

547
00:35:26,160 --> 00:35:30,120
Speaker 1: from Maine named Ellen White, continued to preach a version

548
00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:35,480
Speaker 1: of Adventist thought, and her followers, at first were called Sabbatarians.

549
00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:39,960
Speaker 1: In eighteen sixty three they formed something called the Seventh

550
00:35:40,040 --> 00:35:45,680
Speaker 1: Day Adventist Church. And this group is around today and

551
00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:49,840
Speaker 1: it's bigger than Millerism ever. Was there nineteen million members

552
00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:53,040
Speaker 1: of the Seventh Day Adventist Church. Yeah, it's again. That's

553
00:35:53,040 --> 00:35:55,719
Speaker 1: where I was familiar outside of advent calendar as the

554
00:35:55,719 --> 00:35:59,319
Speaker 1: idea of being an Adventist from the Seventh Day Adventist Church.

555
00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:01,200
Speaker 1: But I didn't really know much about what their their

556
00:36:01,239 --> 00:36:04,600
Speaker 1: beliefs were. So this was super interesting and educational, I

557
00:36:04,640 --> 00:36:07,080
Speaker 1: think for for for all of us. But here's the thing.

558
00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:09,799
Speaker 1: It's another one of those examples of like, okay, the

559
00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:15,000
Speaker 1: date it passes, but it can also lead to other conversations.

560
00:36:15,040 --> 00:36:18,240
Speaker 1: So the exact date of the Second Advent was revised

561
00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:21,960
Speaker 1: a couple of times. So you might point to critics

562
00:36:22,080 --> 00:36:24,800
Speaker 1: of of the movement saying that, well, I mean, we

563
00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:29,040
Speaker 1: passed Miller's prediction. Therefore the whole thing was bunk. And

564
00:36:29,080 --> 00:36:31,040
Speaker 1: then the guy, you know, was was a fraud, or

565
00:36:31,040 --> 00:36:33,479
Speaker 1: at the very least was not keyed into the Holy

566
00:36:33,520 --> 00:36:36,360
Speaker 1: Spirit in the way that he may have thought. Miller's

567
00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:41,239
Speaker 1: year of the Second Advent came with the appearance of

568
00:36:41,320 --> 00:36:46,440
Speaker 1: a very visible and uh and brilliant comment. Uh. It

569
00:36:46,560 --> 00:36:48,239
Speaker 1: was it was, you know, one of these things that

570
00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:50,560
Speaker 1: was like an event, you know, on planet Earth at

571
00:36:50,560 --> 00:36:53,360
Speaker 1: the time when people really didn't understand much about the

572
00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:55,879
Speaker 1: movement of of this of the spheres, or at least

573
00:36:56,840 --> 00:37:01,120
Speaker 1: in so much as they do today. Yeah, And this was,

574
00:37:01,360 --> 00:37:04,920
Speaker 1: by the way, a these revisions come about partially because

575
00:37:04,920 --> 00:37:08,160
Speaker 1: people were committing a sunk cost fallacy. They had already

576
00:37:08,160 --> 00:37:10,439
Speaker 1: gotten rid of all their stuff, you know what I mean,

577
00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:14,640
Speaker 1: They had become convinced that they were right. They had certitude,

578
00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:18,160
Speaker 1: and when this didn't come to pass, they were parodied.

579
00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:21,440
Speaker 1: They had to, in many ways start life over again.

580
00:37:21,840 --> 00:37:24,799
Speaker 1: This was a great disappointment. It was a great disappointment

581
00:37:24,840 --> 00:37:28,560
Speaker 1: for William Miller himself. He was still convinced the end

582
00:37:28,680 --> 00:37:32,560
Speaker 1: was near, but as as we said earlier, he thought

583
00:37:32,600 --> 00:37:37,000
Speaker 1: maybe he had made a slight miscalculation. The error was

584
00:37:37,040 --> 00:37:40,919
Speaker 1: not divinity, the error was human on his part. So

585
00:37:41,200 --> 00:37:45,120
Speaker 1: he wrote this letter to his pal Himes and a

586
00:37:45,200 --> 00:37:52,280
Speaker 1: general address to his followers, and he apologized. He apologized

587
00:37:52,360 --> 00:37:56,960
Speaker 1: in a very sincere way, and he added a poem,

588
00:37:57,120 --> 00:37:59,520
Speaker 1: and we thought that would be a nice place to end.

589
00:37:59,560 --> 00:38:01,640
Speaker 1: It's a little bit long, so I think we're gonna

590
00:38:01,719 --> 00:38:05,080
Speaker 1: double dragon. Uh no, you want to do the honors here,

591
00:38:05,120 --> 00:38:08,360
Speaker 1: and let's just like really lean into the emotional depth.

592
00:38:09,120 --> 00:38:12,359
Speaker 1: Will you say? Two lines apiece, days and even number. Yeah,

593
00:38:12,440 --> 00:38:18,640
Speaker 1: let's try how tedious and lonesome the hours while Jesus,

594
00:38:18,760 --> 00:38:24,600
Speaker 1: my savior delays, I have sought him in Solitude's bowers

595
00:38:24,680 --> 00:38:30,360
Speaker 1: and looked for him all the long days, Yet he lingers,

596
00:38:30,440 --> 00:38:36,000
Speaker 1: I pray, tell me why his chariots no sooner returns

597
00:38:36,520 --> 00:38:41,120
Speaker 1: to see him in clouds in the sky. My soul

598
00:38:41,840 --> 00:38:47,279
Speaker 1: with intensity burdens. I longed to be with him at home,

599
00:38:48,120 --> 00:38:52,840
Speaker 1: my heart swallowed up in his love on the fields

600
00:38:52,920 --> 00:38:58,920
Speaker 1: of New Eden, to room and to dwell with my savior.

601
00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:05,959
Speaker 1: Oh wow, that's that's powerful stuff. And let's we're leaning

602
00:39:06,000 --> 00:39:09,960
Speaker 1: into the reading. Is it's fun? We're not mocking the Uh,

603
00:39:10,200 --> 00:39:12,960
Speaker 1: it's it's just it's fun to do. Uh. This kind

604
00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:16,480
Speaker 1: of writing lends itself to this sort of reading. And

605
00:39:16,480 --> 00:39:19,200
Speaker 1: that's where we leave it for today. This is a

606
00:39:19,239 --> 00:39:22,920
Speaker 1: really interesting two part episode on the history of I

607
00:39:22,960 --> 00:39:27,560
Speaker 1: guess one of America's first doomsday theologies. Is it a cult?

608
00:39:28,400 --> 00:39:30,960
Speaker 1: Is it just a niche religion? It's certainly your Seventh

609
00:39:31,040 --> 00:39:33,880
Speaker 1: day Adventist. Can't really call niche? What I believe? What

610
00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:38,400
Speaker 1: did we say? Ben? Nineteen million followers? Uh, that is

611
00:39:38,400 --> 00:39:41,000
Speaker 1: is pretty pretty massive. So why don't you let us know?

612
00:39:41,120 --> 00:39:43,960
Speaker 1: We have ways that you can contact us. In fact,

613
00:39:44,360 --> 00:39:46,680
Speaker 1: um Ben and I both exist on the Internet as

614
00:39:46,719 --> 00:39:48,960
Speaker 1: individual human people, and if you send it to one

615
00:39:48,960 --> 00:39:50,919
Speaker 1: of us, we share it with each other and we'll

616
00:39:51,080 --> 00:39:53,000
Speaker 1: we'll write back to you. You can find me on

617
00:39:53,080 --> 00:39:56,240
Speaker 1: Instagram where I am at How now Noel Brown. Ben's

618
00:39:56,280 --> 00:39:58,560
Speaker 1: got a couple other ways, one of which might be

619
00:39:58,960 --> 00:40:00,600
Speaker 1: one of the best ways to to reach out in

620
00:40:00,719 --> 00:40:06,040
Speaker 1: terms of a tweet goodness. Yes, i am on Instagram

621
00:40:06,080 --> 00:40:08,480
Speaker 1: at Ben Bowling bo w l I N where you

622
00:40:08,480 --> 00:40:11,520
Speaker 1: can learn more about some stuff that I can't quite

623
00:40:11,520 --> 00:40:13,560
Speaker 1: say on air. But I've got a ton of secret

624
00:40:13,560 --> 00:40:17,080
Speaker 1: projects on the way. If you are more of a

625
00:40:17,160 --> 00:40:21,120
Speaker 1: Twitter Twitter native, then you can find me at Ben

626
00:40:21,120 --> 00:40:24,759
Speaker 1: Bowling hs W on Twitter, where I don't need a

627
00:40:24,840 --> 00:40:28,160
Speaker 1: voice to contact people, and I love to hear from

628
00:40:28,200 --> 00:40:32,240
Speaker 1: all our fellow ridiculous historians. The big what Corporate America

629
00:40:32,280 --> 00:40:34,600
Speaker 1: we call the value add for hitting me up on

630
00:40:34,640 --> 00:40:37,920
Speaker 1: Twitter is that you will also be able to find

631
00:40:38,239 --> 00:40:41,120
Speaker 1: the one and only Mr Max Williams. Yes, you can

632
00:40:41,120 --> 00:40:45,399
Speaker 1: find me on Twitter at a t L underscore Max Williams. Well, yeah,

633
00:40:45,440 --> 00:40:48,000
Speaker 1: you'll see all my fun activities and trolling of Ben

634
00:40:48,120 --> 00:40:52,800
Speaker 1: and stuff. Okay, great, Yes, So come for the tweets,

635
00:40:53,120 --> 00:40:57,400
Speaker 1: stay for the trolling as Noel, Max and I figure

636
00:40:57,400 --> 00:40:59,440
Speaker 1: out what our own prediction for the end of the

637
00:40:59,440 --> 00:41:02,080
Speaker 1: world is. In the meantime, we can't wait for you

638
00:41:02,120 --> 00:41:05,319
Speaker 1: to join us again, folks, where we're going to talk

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Speaker 1: about some very unethical shenanigans. Uncle Sam got up to

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Speaker 1: in our own St. Louis, Missouri. Thanks as always the Max,

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Speaker 1: thanks to our composer, Mr Alex Williams, and again special

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Speaker 1: thanks to you knowl and you Max for bearing with

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Speaker 1: me when I thought I would I would be mute.

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Speaker 1: I'm glad you won that particular battle with the Sea

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Speaker 1: Witch this time down, so we mean there's that golden voice,

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Speaker 1: that golden blessing. See you next time, folks. For more

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Speaker 1: podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app,

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Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows,