WEBVTT - Memorial Day, 2020 | Part 1 0:00:15.356 --> 0:00:15.796 Pushkin. 0:00:20.356 --> 0:00:26.236 May twenty fifth, twenty twenty, Minneapolis, Minnesota, early evening, A 0:00:26.316 --> 0:00:28.996 nine one one dispatcher makes a call. 0:00:31.236 --> 0:00:33.996 If you start as the only available audio factor has 0:00:34.036 --> 0:00:37.636 helped foods down to Doggle thirty seventy nine Chicadgle on 0:00:37.836 --> 0:00:40.156 thirty eighth day, are reporting that there's a person who 0:00:40.196 --> 0:00:42.236 will use the owners that still as a business. 0:00:43.596 --> 0:00:46.956 The dispatcher is Jennis Scurry, seven years on the job. 0:00:47.596 --> 0:00:50.516 She's in a big room with multiple computer screens and 0:00:50.676 --> 0:00:54.556 televisions running live video feeds from around the city. The 0:00:54.676 --> 0:00:58.196 details from the call come over her screen. Thirty eighth 0:00:58.356 --> 0:01:01.876 in Chicago. Suspect at a grocery store. 0:01:03.036 --> 0:01:05.956 Suspect of a black pale sixty four four tollars sitting 0:01:06.036 --> 0:01:09.676 on the part of a bloom or Stadius play boy 0:01:09.756 --> 0:01:12.836 while we're heresos. 0:01:13.956 --> 0:01:16.476 She sends a squad card to the scene, looks up 0:01:16.756 --> 0:01:19.116 and realizes the city has a fixed camera on that 0:01:19.236 --> 0:01:21.636 corner of thirty eighth in Chicago, so she has a 0:01:21.756 --> 0:01:25.396 live video feed up on one of the screens. She 0:01:25.516 --> 0:01:27.716 sees the officers try to put the suspect in the 0:01:27.796 --> 0:01:30.316 back of one of the squad cars. She looks away 0:01:30.836 --> 0:01:34.836 when she looks back. He's on the ground, handcuffed, face down, 0:01:35.476 --> 0:01:40.476 one officer kneeling on his neck. The suspect is George Floyd. 0:01:41.076 --> 0:01:45.156 The officer on top of him is Derek Chauvin. She 0:01:45.276 --> 0:01:54.436 looks away again, takes another call. At the criminal trial 0:01:54.476 --> 0:01:57.196 the following year, arising from the events that day in 0:01:57.316 --> 0:02:01.036 twenty twenty, Scurry was the first witness called by the prosecution, 0:02:01.796 --> 0:02:05.396 and she relived the events of that evening step by step. 0:02:06.516 --> 0:02:08.316 At some point, then did you go back to this, 0:02:10.316 --> 0:02:12.236 how did it appear at that time? When you went 0:02:12.316 --> 0:02:13.876 back to it, it had not changed? 0:02:14.236 --> 0:02:15.156 And what do you mean by that? 0:02:16.116 --> 0:02:18.916 They were still on the ground, The whole situation was 0:02:18.996 --> 0:02:19.796 still in the scene. 0:02:21.396 --> 0:02:23.396 Do you recall approximately how long that was? 0:02:24.676 --> 0:02:27.756 No, it was long enough. It was long enough that 0:02:27.836 --> 0:02:29.516 I could look back multiple times. 0:02:31.276 --> 0:02:33.956 And so when you did look back, still on the 0:02:33.996 --> 0:02:42.076 ground like depicted here, essentially correct. And what did you 0:02:42.196 --> 0:02:44.836 think about us when you look back and saw that 0:02:44.876 --> 0:02:45.636 it hadn't changed? 0:02:46.916 --> 0:02:49.116 I first asked if the screens had frozen. 0:02:53.956 --> 0:02:57.476 My name is Malcolm Gladwell. Welcome to Revisionist History, my 0:02:57.636 --> 0:03:02.396 podcast about things overlooked and misunderstood. I'm guessing you watched 0:03:02.396 --> 0:03:05.316 the bystander videos of what happened that night during the 0:03:05.356 --> 0:03:09.996 fevered COVID summer of twenty twenty. I know idea, I 0:03:10.076 --> 0:03:13.076 knew the villain, I knew the victim. I thought that's 0:03:13.196 --> 0:03:16.276 all I needed to know. But then I ran across 0:03:16.316 --> 0:03:19.356 the George Floyd video again not long ago, by chance 0:03:20.236 --> 0:03:23.756 one of those serendipitous Internet moments, and watched it for 0:03:23.836 --> 0:03:26.876 the first time in years, far from the intense emotions 0:03:26.916 --> 0:03:29.716 of the first time I saw it, and I realized 0:03:30.436 --> 0:03:33.756 I didn't understand what was happening, what Chauvin was doing, 0:03:34.596 --> 0:03:37.076 but the other police officers on the scene were thinking, 0:03:38.236 --> 0:03:41.196 which made me wonder if somehow, the first time around, 0:03:41.796 --> 0:03:45.036 I had missed a lesson of the case. So over 0:03:45.116 --> 0:03:47.876 the next two episodes, I'm going to do a close 0:03:47.956 --> 0:03:51.876 reading of what happened to George Floyd, an unfamiliar reading, 0:03:52.516 --> 0:03:55.556 starting with the perspective of the very first person to 0:03:55.636 --> 0:04:01.436 see things unfold in real time, Jennie Curry. Because before 0:04:01.516 --> 0:04:06.676 George Floyd stopped breathing, before the angry crowd gathered, before 0:04:06.756 --> 0:04:10.596 the scene turned into tragedy, she could see Derek Chauvin 0:04:10.636 --> 0:04:14.716 behaving so strangely that It led her, a nine one 0:04:14.716 --> 0:04:17.956 one dispatcher who had seen a thousand crime scenes in 0:04:18.036 --> 0:04:22.316 her career, to stop and stare at the video feed 0:04:23.076 --> 0:04:29.436 in disbelief, as in, this can't be real. The screen 0:04:29.516 --> 0:04:30.276 must be frozen. 0:04:36.996 --> 0:04:38.716 Did you find that it had frozen? 0:04:39.196 --> 0:04:41.756 No, I was told that it was not frozen. 0:04:41.956 --> 0:04:43.956 Did you see the screen change yourself? 0:04:44.236 --> 0:04:45.676 Yes, I saw the person's moving. 0:04:45.956 --> 0:04:47.636 So what did you start thinking at that point? 0:04:49.156 --> 0:04:50.076 Something might be wrong? 0:04:51.276 --> 0:04:53.756 Wrong with what? Or are you thinking? 0:04:54.716 --> 0:04:55.316 Instinct of. 0:04:58.556 --> 0:05:02.316 In the instant, something's not going right, whether it be 0:05:04.676 --> 0:05:11.276 they needed more assistance or if there were, they're just 0:05:11.356 --> 0:05:13.076 something wasn't right. I don't know how to explain it. 0:05:13.156 --> 0:05:16.356 It was a good instinct to tell me that now 0:05:16.436 --> 0:05:17.316 we can be concerned. 0:05:18.396 --> 0:05:19.516 And what did you decide to do? 0:05:20.516 --> 0:05:22.556 I took that instinct and I called the sergeant. 0:05:23.276 --> 0:05:26.196 Have you ever in your career before called a sergeant 0:05:26.916 --> 0:05:29.916 for something like those multiple for an incident like this 0:05:30.956 --> 0:05:31.796 to be exact, No. 0:05:34.996 --> 0:05:38.836 In the beginning, there was nothing extraordinary about the situation unfolding. 0:05:38.876 --> 0:05:41.556 On the corner of thirty eighth in Chicago, a man 0:05:41.716 --> 0:05:46.156 passes a counterfeit twenty dollars bill. The clerk calls nine 0:05:46.156 --> 0:05:49.156 to one one. The suspect hasn't run, He's sitting in 0:05:49.236 --> 0:05:52.836 his car across the street. He isn't armed, he isn't hostile. 0:05:53.436 --> 0:05:57.076 He seems like he's high. Two officers approach him and 0:05:57.236 --> 0:06:00.116 tell him to get out of the car. He pleads 0:06:00.316 --> 0:06:03.516 and complains, more like a scared child than a grown man. 0:06:04.036 --> 0:06:07.276 He talks about his mom. He finally gets out. The 0:06:07.356 --> 0:06:10.436 officers handcuff him. They asked him his name. He says 0:06:10.556 --> 0:06:13.756 it's George Floyd. They lead him over to the squad car, 0:06:14.516 --> 0:06:16.236 but he doesn't want to get in the back seat. 0:06:16.716 --> 0:06:21.476 He says he's claustrophobic. He's having trouble breathing. He struggles 0:06:21.516 --> 0:06:24.476 and squirms, and because he's a big man, well over 0:06:24.556 --> 0:06:27.636 six feet and two hundred pounds, it makes things difficult. 0:06:28.436 --> 0:06:31.876 In the struggle, he cuts his mouth. One of the 0:06:31.956 --> 0:06:35.556 officers calls for an ambulance. A second squad car arrives. 0:06:35.876 --> 0:06:38.476 There are now four police officers on the scene and 0:06:38.676 --> 0:06:45.436 one handcuff suspect, clearly unhappy but deferential. We know from 0:06:45.476 --> 0:06:47.876 the body camp footage that by this point he has 0:06:47.996 --> 0:06:54.156 used the words sorry and please fifty seven times leave. 0:06:54.276 --> 0:07:02.156 That's Floyd is he going to jail. That's Derek Chauvin. 0:07:02.756 --> 0:07:05.116 He's one of the two officers in a second squad 0:07:05.156 --> 0:07:06.156 car that just pulled up. 0:07:06.436 --> 0:07:08.476 He's under a rush right now for forgery. I'll tell 0:07:08.476 --> 0:07:10.356 you tell what's going on. 0:07:15.876 --> 0:07:23.836 Come on out, get him on the ground. Chauvin says, 0:07:24.916 --> 0:07:28.516 as the senior officer president, he's taking control of the situation. 0:07:29.276 --> 0:07:33.036 He wants Floyd in the prone position, face down, hands 0:07:33.116 --> 0:07:36.356 cuffed behind his back. He then puts one of his 0:07:36.476 --> 0:07:39.236 knees on the side of Floyd's neck and the other 0:07:39.756 --> 0:07:44.916 between Floyd's shoulder blades, a technique sometimes used with non 0:07:44.996 --> 0:07:46.036 compliant subjects. 0:07:52.036 --> 0:07:54.476 Please please let me stay. 0:07:54.276 --> 0:07:59.356 In, Chauvin says, we'll hold him until the ambulance shows up. 0:08:00.076 --> 0:08:05.756 Floyd says, let me stand. Chauvin says no. So what 0:08:05.876 --> 0:08:10.516 does Chauvin do next? Chauvin doesn't move. Chauvin just sits there. 0:08:11.076 --> 0:08:17.836 He's frozen. Right around this time, an off duty firefighter 0:08:17.916 --> 0:08:21.516 named Genevieve Hanson was out for a walk. Happens upon 0:08:21.596 --> 0:08:26.316 the scene, identifies herself as a firefighter, a trained first responder. 0:08:27.716 --> 0:08:33.236 I was pretty focused on trying to get the officers 0:08:33.276 --> 0:08:34.476 to let me. 0:08:34.556 --> 0:08:38.436 Help and how are you doing that, trying to get 0:08:38.476 --> 0:08:40.436 the officers to focus on your and get help. 0:08:41.036 --> 0:08:45.236 I think in my memory, I tried different tactics of 0:08:47.196 --> 0:08:54.316 calm and reasoning. I tried to be assert of, I 0:08:55.636 --> 0:08:56.996 pled and was desperate. 0:08:58.836 --> 0:09:01.316 Henson testified at Chauven's trial. 0:09:02.316 --> 0:09:05.716 In terms of you know his face when you're first there, 0:09:07.196 --> 0:09:09.716 or even the rest of him. What is that you 0:09:09.876 --> 0:09:12.836 saw that made you concerned about his medical needs? 0:09:13.716 --> 0:09:17.476 I was really concerned about I thought his face looked 0:09:18.356 --> 0:09:22.396 puffy and swollen, which would happen if you are putting 0:09:23.276 --> 0:09:28.876 a grown man's weight on someone's neck. I noticed some 0:09:29.476 --> 0:09:33.676 fluid coming from what looked like George's foot body, and 0:09:34.036 --> 0:09:37.916 in a lot of cases we see a patient. 0:09:39.316 --> 0:09:41.596 Release their bladder when they die. 0:09:42.996 --> 0:09:45.956 I can't tell you exactly where the flood was coming from, 0:09:45.996 --> 0:09:47.796 but that's where my mind went. 0:09:50.196 --> 0:09:55.996 He wasn't moving. He was being restrained, but he wasn't moving. 0:09:58.356 --> 0:10:01.196 Later at the trial, a police surgeon named Bill Smuck 0:10:01.836 --> 0:10:04.916 walked the jury through the videotape of Floyd's final moments, 0:10:05.516 --> 0:10:08.076 pointing out all the mounting warning signs. 0:10:09.316 --> 0:10:11.796 What I want you to also watch for is what 0:10:12.116 --> 0:10:16.276 is his right arm doing as this progresses? You will 0:10:16.356 --> 0:10:21.196 see him pushing against the tire. You'll see his right arm, 0:10:21.316 --> 0:10:23.876 his elbow pushing against. Yes, I'd like to know what 0:10:23.996 --> 0:10:26.876 is it showing us? Why is that significant? This is 0:10:27.436 --> 0:10:31.156 very important because it's showing what mister Floyd is doing 0:10:31.556 --> 0:10:35.356 to try and breathe, to get his right side of 0:10:35.396 --> 0:10:38.036 his chest up off of the pavement so that he 0:10:38.156 --> 0:10:38.876 can bring in air. 0:10:39.876 --> 0:10:42.756 Smart breaks down Floyd's final minutes frame by frame. 0:10:43.516 --> 0:10:47.636 Let's look at another segment. Brand if we can go 0:10:47.716 --> 0:10:49.036 to start at twenty twenty one. 0:10:50.076 --> 0:10:55.996 You will hear his voice gets weaker and weaker. You 0:10:56.076 --> 0:11:01.756 will see his los facial expression. You will hear him 0:11:01.836 --> 0:11:06.756 make sounds of trying to breathe as we get closer. 0:11:07.956 --> 0:11:08.796 He then goes on. 0:11:10.836 --> 0:11:14.476 He will then see in the next section he has 0:11:14.516 --> 0:11:17.956 what's called and anoxuc seizure. That's a fancy word for 0:11:18.636 --> 0:11:22.716 his brain is going without oxygen very low. His legs shake, 0:11:23.116 --> 0:11:25.716 but you're also you will actually see and you can 0:11:25.876 --> 0:11:29.716 hear the handcuff shake, and you'll see the body camera 0:11:29.876 --> 0:11:32.676 shake when he has in anox ex seizure. 0:11:33.716 --> 0:11:39.036 Further on down the line, clear warning signs, clear red flags, 0:11:39.596 --> 0:11:43.476 not to mention Genevieve Henson and other bystanders are just 0:11:43.556 --> 0:11:46.796 a few feet away shouting at him to get off Floyd, 0:11:47.836 --> 0:11:51.396 and then another voice joins that chorus. It's one of 0:11:51.476 --> 0:11:54.796 the other officers. He says, should we roll him on 0:11:54.876 --> 0:11:59.676 his side? Rolling him on his side is what's known 0:11:59.836 --> 0:12:03.356 as the recovery position. Having someone prone on the hard 0:12:03.436 --> 0:12:05.996 ground with their hands cuffed and with a knee on 0:12:06.036 --> 0:12:07.996 their neck and in the middle of their back was 0:12:08.076 --> 0:12:11.716 acceptable practice Minneapolis at the time, but the city's use 0:12:11.756 --> 0:12:15.316 of force training explicitly stated that the technique was only 0:12:15.356 --> 0:12:19.116 supposed to be used briefly and on someone quote exhibiting 0:12:19.396 --> 0:12:25.516 active aggression unquote. It's dangerous, it's hard to breathe I 0:12:25.636 --> 0:12:27.676 tried it. I had a friend put me in that position. 0:12:28.036 --> 0:12:31.716 It's scary. So when the subject calms down, you're supposed 0:12:31.756 --> 0:12:34.596 to roll them over. That's what the fellow officer is saying. 0:12:34.996 --> 0:12:38.596 We have to roll them over. But Chauvin says no. 0:12:39.436 --> 0:12:43.276 He says, that's why we've got the ambulance coming. He's 0:12:43.356 --> 0:12:46.836 not reacting to anything. This is what so alarms Jenni 0:12:46.876 --> 0:12:50.076 scurry when she looks back up at the scene. She's 0:12:50.276 --> 0:12:54.916 expecting things to have resolved themselves. Things should have happened, 0:12:55.956 --> 0:13:00.196 but nothing's happened. All she sees is Chauvin up on 0:13:00.276 --> 0:13:03.956 the screen, sitting on Floyd's neck, his hand casually in 0:13:04.036 --> 0:13:09.076 his pocket, his face impassive. He's frozen, or, to use 0:13:09.116 --> 0:13:12.636 here's a term favored by psychologists, he's fixated. 0:13:13.996 --> 0:13:18.116 Fixation is simply going down the wrong path and getting 0:13:18.196 --> 0:13:19.196 stuck on that path. 0:13:20.316 --> 0:13:24.356 That's Gary Klein. He consults with governments, armies, and hospitals 0:13:24.596 --> 0:13:27.236 on how to make better decisions under pressure, and wrote 0:13:27.236 --> 0:13:30.876 the classic Sources of Power, one of my favorite books ever. 0:13:31.676 --> 0:13:34.556 For Klein, One of the most revealing case studies in 0:13:34.676 --> 0:13:39.396 fixation was the actions of the Israeli intelligence chief Elizia 0:13:39.836 --> 0:13:41.956 in the weeks leading up to the Yom Kapur War 0:13:42.036 --> 0:13:44.916 between Egypt and Israel in nineteen seventy three. 0:13:46.036 --> 0:13:49.516 He had what was now called an israel conception. His 0:13:49.676 --> 0:13:53.156 conception was, Egypt will never attack us until they have 0:13:53.316 --> 0:13:57.236 air superiority, and they don't have air superiority, and we 0:13:57.356 --> 0:14:00.596 have nothing to worry about. And he held on to 0:14:00.756 --> 0:14:05.356 that belief until about two hours before the attack. But 0:14:05.516 --> 0:14:09.956 his subordinates were seeing all these counterindicators they're seeing the 0:14:10.116 --> 0:14:15.916 Egyptians moving troops and changing configurations at the border, all 0:14:15.996 --> 0:14:19.796 these signs that indicate and the attack is imminent. And 0:14:19.996 --> 0:14:23.956 Zarah said, this is just a training exercise. But then 0:14:24.036 --> 0:14:26.996 the subordin has showed there was no sign of training 0:14:27.116 --> 0:14:30.676 going on, so this was just a cover story. And 0:14:30.956 --> 0:14:35.876 Zarah refused to pass their concerns on higher and then 0:14:36.436 --> 0:14:40.796 the attack occurred. So he was fixated and he wouldn't budge. 0:14:42.116 --> 0:14:46.556 The fixated decision maker cannot accept new information. Every time 0:14:46.836 --> 0:14:51.196 new information arises that challenges his original conception, he explains 0:14:51.236 --> 0:14:54.236 it away. Klein Wentz did a big project at Johns 0:14:54.276 --> 0:14:58.756 Hopkins University Hospital looking at how physicians made diagnoses, and 0:14:58.876 --> 0:15:02.476 he found that the most experienced doctors were acutely aware 0:15:02.556 --> 0:15:06.996 of their own tendency towards fixation. It was a constant battle. 0:15:07.756 --> 0:15:11.516 I watched one of Examine Nation where the attending position. 0:15:11.716 --> 0:15:16.076 This is the first observation I made. The attending position 0:15:16.276 --> 0:15:22.636 is examining the person. The person's describing his condition and 0:15:23.396 --> 0:15:28.516 seems pretty straightforward, and at a certain point he says, 0:15:28.756 --> 0:15:30.756 what's this on your back? Well, it turned out he 0:15:30.876 --> 0:15:36.756 had had surgery to repair some heart defect. This hadn't 0:15:36.756 --> 0:15:40.436 been in his history. And the physician said, wait a minute, 0:15:41.156 --> 0:15:44.716 let's start over. And he started the whole exam over 0:15:45.236 --> 0:15:48.556 because he was aware that there might have been implications 0:15:48.636 --> 0:15:51.836 in what he did that he didn't see because he 0:15:51.916 --> 0:15:53.836 didn't have this other possibility. 0:15:54.516 --> 0:15:56.236 Did he end up changing his diagnosis? 0:15:56.956 --> 0:16:00.756 Oh yes, yes, they found a much more serious problem 0:16:01.236 --> 0:16:05.636 that the resident and some of the nurses had missed. 0:16:07.116 --> 0:16:10.556 Fighting fixation means being willing to throw away all the 0:16:10.636 --> 0:16:13.396 work you've done in making sense of a complicated situation 0:16:14.196 --> 0:16:18.676 and saying, let's start over. This is what Chauvin doesn't do. 0:16:19.436 --> 0:16:22.156 He never says to himself, let's start over. 0:16:23.116 --> 0:16:26.756 Derek Chaugan, he had a script for how to handle 0:16:26.876 --> 0:16:32.356 people who are larger and intimidating, and that's as far 0:16:32.436 --> 0:16:33.276 as he ever gots. 0:16:35.996 --> 0:16:38.476 You can't be Is it fair to say you can't 0:16:38.516 --> 0:16:40.596 be a police officer if you're not willing to revisit 0:16:40.636 --> 0:16:41.036 your script. 0:16:41.996 --> 0:16:45.596 You can't be an effective police officer if you are 0:16:45.676 --> 0:16:46.756 stuck on your script. 0:16:48.596 --> 0:16:51.636 Floyd is trying to raise his chest off the ground. Oh, 0:16:52.276 --> 0:16:55.796 that's because he's still resisting arrest. Some lady says she's 0:16:55.836 --> 0:16:57.916 a firefighter. Is she really? 0:16:58.596 --> 0:16:58.956 In fact? 0:16:59.356 --> 0:17:02.436 When Genevieve Hansen moves closer, Show then goes for his mace, 0:17:03.276 --> 0:17:07.076 Floyd's voice starts to falter. About time, Maybe he's finally 0:17:07.116 --> 0:17:10.116 going to stop complaining. One of his fellow officers says, 0:17:10.516 --> 0:17:13.836 put him in the recovery position, dude, I've been doing 0:17:13.876 --> 0:17:17.556 this for nineteen years. Back off. The crowd that has 0:17:17.636 --> 0:17:20.676 gathered around Floyd in the four officers is becoming more 0:17:21.236 --> 0:17:24.676 and more vocal. But Chauvin isn't moving. 0:17:26.956 --> 0:17:31.236 He's not responsive right now. No, bro, look at him. 0:17:31.236 --> 0:17:39.996 He's having responsive right now? Is he breathing right now? 0:17:40.276 --> 0:17:42.676 Check his book, Check his pulse. 0:17:43.116 --> 0:17:52.196 Check his book, check his pulse, Check his pulse. One 0:17:52.236 --> 0:17:54.396 of the other cops at the scene says to the 0:17:54.436 --> 0:18:00.276 officers sitting behind Chauvin, I can't find one. Floyd is dead, 0:18:01.316 --> 0:18:05.916 and still Chauvin doesn't move. He will remain on Floyd's 0:18:05.996 --> 0:18:11.116 neck for another three minutes, even after the ambulance arrives. 0:18:14.316 --> 0:18:18.716 Years from now, when university professors teach courses on decision sciences, 0:18:19.116 --> 0:18:22.516 they will play this video as a textbook example of fixation. 0:18:23.516 --> 0:18:29.436 But why is Chauvin fixated? What psychological mechanism could describe 0:18:29.636 --> 0:18:33.076 why he would just sit there. In the aftermath of 0:18:33.156 --> 0:18:35.996 the murder, it was said again and again that Chauvin 0:18:36.116 --> 0:18:39.836 is a racist. But calling someone racist is a description, 0:18:40.396 --> 0:18:44.516 not an explanation. Why is Chauvin stuck on his script? 0:18:59.476 --> 0:19:02.516 One of the most influential ideas to emerge in social 0:19:02.596 --> 0:19:07.756 psychology in recent years is something called hostile intention attribution, 0:19:08.716 --> 0:19:11.476 arising out of the work of Ken Dodge. 0:19:12.436 --> 0:19:15.876 For me, a very poignant event in my own thinking 0:19:16.516 --> 0:19:19.516 was that as a clinical psychologist, I was seeing a 0:19:20.636 --> 0:19:24.956 highly aggressive teenager in a state psychiatric hospital. 0:19:25.556 --> 0:19:28.916 That's Dodge, who teaches at Duke University, and. 0:19:29.556 --> 0:19:32.036 The boy's name was Rocky. I came up to his 0:19:32.436 --> 0:19:37.156 ward one day, approached him from behind to say hello. 0:19:37.316 --> 0:19:40.036 I was trying to establish a relationship with him. Touched 0:19:40.116 --> 0:19:43.956 him on the shoulder from behind, and he turned around 0:19:43.996 --> 0:19:47.956 and punched me in the gut, And in a nanosecond 0:19:47.996 --> 0:19:50.196 he stopped and said, oh my, you can't be too 0:19:50.236 --> 0:19:55.156 careful around here. And you know, he was making a 0:19:55.276 --> 0:20:00.156 decision that in that moment that somebody touching him on 0:20:00.276 --> 0:20:04.516 the back shoulder might be a threat, and he responded 0:20:05.076 --> 0:20:06.636 that was his mindset. 0:20:09.116 --> 0:20:11.396 Could have interpreted that touch on the shoulder in any 0:20:11.476 --> 0:20:14.916 number of ways. He could have ignored it, shrugged it off, 0:20:15.596 --> 0:20:19.036 or assumed it was an invitation for affection and turned 0:20:19.116 --> 0:20:23.636 and smiled. But he didn't. He chose to focus on 0:20:23.756 --> 0:20:26.956 it and to assume that Dodge had a hostile intent. 0:20:27.836 --> 0:20:34.476 That's hostile intent attribution, the pattern of interpreting everything as 0:20:34.516 --> 0:20:37.956 a threat. You can look at someone like that kid 0:20:38.036 --> 0:20:41.716 Rocky and offer an organic explanation of his behavior. He's 0:20:41.756 --> 0:20:45.636 a bad seed, he's wired wrong. But Dodge wants us 0:20:45.876 --> 0:20:49.996 to look at problematic behavior as a developmental problem as well. 0:20:50.796 --> 0:20:55.836 Somewhere along the way, someone's personal experience left the unprepared 0:20:55.916 --> 0:20:59.316 to make proper sense of the world. A very small child, 0:20:59.436 --> 0:21:03.516 for example, does not understand the distinction between an intentional 0:21:03.596 --> 0:21:08.036 act and an accident. That's something you learn. You gradually 0:21:08.116 --> 0:21:10.636 figure out that that actions can come with any number 0:21:10.676 --> 0:21:11.876 of different explanations. 0:21:12.596 --> 0:21:15.676 I remember going to the pediatrician at age four and 0:21:15.796 --> 0:21:20.036 being definitely afraid of getting a shot right. But my 0:21:20.236 --> 0:21:23.716 parents and everybody certainly quickly told me that doctor was 0:21:23.796 --> 0:21:26.596 not trying to be mean to me, right, And I 0:21:26.636 --> 0:21:29.716 had to learn that. But I do think that it's 0:21:29.796 --> 0:21:33.436 a socialization of benign intent that early life is about, 0:21:33.636 --> 0:21:37.036 rather than the socialization of hostile intent. 0:21:38.396 --> 0:21:40.916 After talking to Dodge, I began to observe my own 0:21:40.996 --> 0:21:44.956 kids more closely. They're both preschoolers two years apart. The 0:21:44.996 --> 0:21:47.596 big one loves to man handle her little sister, and 0:21:47.716 --> 0:21:50.516 most of the time that interaction is greeted with laughter. 0:21:51.196 --> 0:21:55.236 But sometimes if my eldest goes too far, her sister cries, 0:21:55.996 --> 0:21:58.716 and I realized that what they're doing is, to use 0:21:58.836 --> 0:22:02.556 Dodge's phrase, learning how to make accurate attributions of each 0:22:02.596 --> 0:22:06.196 other's behavior. When the big sisters push is too aggressive, 0:22:06.516 --> 0:22:09.116 the little one learns that seems to have a different 0:22:09.476 --> 0:22:13.356 intention from what we were doing before. She's learning the 0:22:13.396 --> 0:22:17.956 difference between fighting and playing. And when the little one 0:22:17.996 --> 0:22:20.716 cries out instead of laughing, the big one learns, oh, 0:22:21.236 --> 0:22:23.636 if I want to keep playing, I have to make 0:22:23.676 --> 0:22:28.076 sure that my actions are accurately interpreted. She's learning how 0:22:28.116 --> 0:22:31.796 to reign in her aggression. That kind of feedback loop 0:22:32.156 --> 0:22:36.556 is a crucial part of a child's socialization, But in 0:22:36.596 --> 0:22:39.476 the case of the boy Rocky, what Dodge realized was 0:22:39.516 --> 0:22:43.156 that that process of socialization of learning how to accurately 0:22:43.276 --> 0:22:47.356 distinguish between a hostile touch and a playful touch had 0:22:47.396 --> 0:22:48.076 been disrupted. 0:22:48.996 --> 0:22:53.156 I remember interviewing a ten year old kid who told 0:22:53.236 --> 0:22:57.156 me about when he was four or five, the family 0:22:57.236 --> 0:23:00.236 that he lived in at that time. His father stepfather 0:23:01.396 --> 0:23:05.596 would come home every night from work, and he learned 0:23:06.516 --> 0:23:09.556 how to minimize the likelihood that he was going to 0:23:09.556 --> 0:23:13.516 get beaten up that night by smelling whether his father 0:23:13.636 --> 0:23:16.156 had alcohol in his breath, whether his father had a 0:23:16.236 --> 0:23:20.276 mean look, whether's father called him into the kitchen with 0:23:20.476 --> 0:23:23.276 his belt already undone, put it on the kitchen table. 0:23:23.516 --> 0:23:25.276 He was learning all He was four years old and 0:23:25.316 --> 0:23:28.556 he's learning all these signals, and he could describe them 0:23:28.596 --> 0:23:32.196 to me in great detail. So I think in early 0:23:32.396 --> 0:23:37.196 life of threat personal physical threat, there may be others 0:23:37.236 --> 0:23:39.916 as well. Is one way that it would be very 0:23:39.996 --> 0:23:44.556 adaptive to develop a defensive mindset and to assume a 0:23:44.636 --> 0:23:47.476 hostile intent from another person. 0:23:48.476 --> 0:23:50.996 If your father is violent sixty percent of the time 0:23:51.556 --> 0:23:54.196 and loving forty percent of the time, and you can't 0:23:54.236 --> 0:23:56.836 tell in the moment which direction he's going to go, 0:23:57.516 --> 0:24:01.036 then it makes logical sense for your own physical safety 0:24:01.396 --> 0:24:03.316 just to assume that your father is always going to 0:24:03.356 --> 0:24:07.036 be hostile. But when you take that assumption into the 0:24:07.156 --> 0:24:11.956 real world as a playground, us into classrooms, into the workplace, 0:24:12.516 --> 0:24:16.316 it doesn't work. It makes you a bully, a pariah. 0:24:17.076 --> 0:24:23.076 It makes even routine interactions deeply problematic. And nowhere is 0:24:23.196 --> 0:24:28.076 this dysfunction more problematic than policing, of course, because if 0:24:28.156 --> 0:24:31.396 you are a police officer whose early life and experience 0:24:31.676 --> 0:24:34.676 has left them impaired in that way, who, as a result, 0:24:34.836 --> 0:24:39.196 makes hostile attributions all the time, then how can you 0:24:39.276 --> 0:24:43.756 be a police officer. I don't know what Chauvin's upbringing 0:24:43.916 --> 0:24:46.076 was like, but I know when I saw the tape 0:24:46.116 --> 0:24:49.916 again after talking to Dodge, I wondered if Chauvin wasn't 0:24:49.996 --> 0:24:53.676 just someone like Rocky, all grown up. And the one 0:24:53.716 --> 0:24:58.116 thing Rocky can't be is a police officer, because being 0:24:58.156 --> 0:25:00.916 good at that job relies may be more than almost 0:25:00.996 --> 0:25:04.356 any other profession on being able to distinguish in the 0:25:04.436 --> 0:25:07.596 heat of a moment, between a hostile act and an 0:25:07.636 --> 0:25:11.076 ambiguous act, between someone who is struggling because they can't 0:25:11.156 --> 0:25:15.196 breathe and someone who is struggling because they are resisting arrest, 0:25:15.756 --> 0:25:18.516 between someone who says I'm going to die because they're 0:25:18.516 --> 0:25:21.916 trying to trick you, and someone who says I'm going 0:25:21.996 --> 0:25:25.516 to die because they are in fact going to die. 0:25:26.716 --> 0:25:29.836 If you can't do that, then you can only interpret 0:25:29.876 --> 0:25:32.716 the world one way. Then, in the middle of a 0:25:32.796 --> 0:25:36.276 fast evolving situation, when there is new information coming in 0:25:36.356 --> 0:25:39.356 all the time, you have only one way to interpret 0:25:39.396 --> 0:25:46.036 it a threat. In the course of the investigation into 0:25:46.076 --> 0:25:49.716 the death of George Floyd, a second case came to light. 0:25:50.636 --> 0:25:54.916 It happened in twenty seventeen, three years earlier. A woman 0:25:55.076 --> 0:25:58.556 calls nine one one. She says her son has assaulted her. 0:25:59.236 --> 0:26:02.196 The police arrive talk to the woman at length. She 0:26:02.276 --> 0:26:04.356 says her son is down the hall in his room. 0:26:05.076 --> 0:26:07.956 In the bodycam footage, you can see the officers walk 0:26:08.036 --> 0:26:10.396 down the hallway. The boy is on the floor of 0:26:10.436 --> 0:26:14.556 his bedroom on the phone. He's fourteen. The lead officer 0:26:14.596 --> 0:26:17.556 in the group is lean in his forties with a 0:26:17.596 --> 0:26:23.876 passive demeanor. It's Derek Chauvin. The officers enter the room 0:26:24.596 --> 0:26:27.876 tell him he's under arrest. He says his mom was drunk. 0:26:28.196 --> 0:26:32.036 He gets up reluctantly. His voice is calm, he doesn't 0:26:32.116 --> 0:26:35.796 act out, He's not aggressive. He says his mother had 0:26:35.836 --> 0:26:38.356 done this before called the police when she's the one 0:26:38.396 --> 0:26:41.356 who has a problem. That's why his uncle left the house, 0:26:41.396 --> 0:26:45.116 he says. He seems genuinely confused as to why he 0:26:45.196 --> 0:26:49.956 should be the one under arrest. He's a teenager, John, 0:26:49.996 --> 0:26:52.916 don't you come on here, that's Chauvin, Alice. 0:26:55.036 --> 0:27:01.516