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Speaker 1: Hey, y'all, it's CT and Zakiyah, And we know, we know,

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Speaker 1: we said we weren't coming back until November eleventh, but

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Speaker 1: we can't wait that long, so we had to share

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Speaker 1: just a little sneak peak with y'all. In our first

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Speaker 1: Lab of semester Foor, we're talking to doctor Gail Sinatra

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Speaker 1: and doctor Barbara Hoefert about their new book, Science Denial,

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Speaker 1: Why Happens and What to Do about It. Their book

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Speaker 1: explores what keeps folks from having a broad understanding of science.

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Speaker 1: It also offers solutions for those wondering what they can

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Speaker 1: do to help curb the spread of misinformation. You can

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Speaker 1: hear the whole episode on Thursday, November eleventh, but here's

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Speaker 1: a sneak peek. We started by asking doctor Sinatra, what

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Speaker 1: is science denial?

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Speaker 2: You don't see people who are very doubting and resisting science,

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Speaker 2: hesitating to use an iPhone or get on a plane.

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Speaker 2: They're not denying physics, they're not denying the technology that

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Speaker 2: goes into Wi Fi. So it is this phenomena of

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Speaker 2: selective denial, which really is driven by your motivations, your emotions.

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Speaker 2: So you're picking and choosing what you like about science

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Speaker 2: and what you don't like, and science doesn't.

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Speaker 3: Work that way.

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Speaker 1: That's such a good point, you know, science does not

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Speaker 1: care about your feelings. It's not about our opinions or

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Speaker 1: what we want to be true.

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Speaker 2: It's about what the evidence suggests is our best understanding

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Speaker 2: of the science at the time.

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Speaker 1: Yes, it's so important to remember that science is backed

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Speaker 1: up by research and evidence. For example, with masking and vaccine,

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Speaker 1: scientists are doing studies to see how effective those measures

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Speaker 1: are and then creating guidelines accordingly. And yes, these guidelines

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Speaker 1: can change as the evidence changes, as we learn more.

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Speaker 1: But we'll talk a little bit more about that later.

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Speaker 1: But I think we should start with the history of

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Speaker 1: science denial. Tt let's rewind a little bit. Have we

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Speaker 1: seen science denial before in different forms? And how did

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Speaker 1: we get here?

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Speaker 2: The history of science probably starts with science denial, doubt

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Speaker 2: and resistance.

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Speaker 3: We try to trace it back to Galli Lao and

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Speaker 3: you think about how he was under house arrests for

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Speaker 3: the beliefs that he had, how long it took for

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Speaker 3: people to accept his theories. Think about Darwin. It took

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Speaker 3: more than one hundred years for scientists to accept fully

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Speaker 3: what he was proposing in the way of evolution.

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Speaker 1: So, for real, it feels like science denial has been

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Speaker 1: going on since the beginning of science itself, and in

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Speaker 1: the last fifty years it's become more pervasive as there's

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Speaker 1: been some outside meddling, so corporations realizing that fostering some

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Speaker 1: science denial could help their bottom line. It all goes

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Speaker 1: back to the money.

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Speaker 3: Beginning with the tobacco industry, for example, were interested in

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Speaker 3: trying to deflect the idea that somehow it was cancer causing,

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Speaker 3: and they hired pr firms to so doubt. And the

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Speaker 3: same companies are being used by Exxon and other corporations

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Speaker 3: to make it look as though climate change isn't a

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Speaker 3: certain fact.

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Speaker 1: In fact, even as recently as twenty ten, Philip Morris

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Speaker 1: has routinely argued that Marlboro gold cigarettes actually decrease the

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Speaker 1: risk of cancer. That's wild, but that brings us to today.

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Speaker 1: With a global pandemic in a steadily warming planet, it

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Speaker 1: feels like people are holding their noses up as scientific

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Speaker 1: evidence left and right. So this has made me ask

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Speaker 1: is there an increase in size and denial.

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Speaker 2: I think the difference that we see is the amplification

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Speaker 2: of misinformation through social media, and that's coupled with us

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Speaker 2: living in our information bubbles where we get the same

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Speaker 2: information and if it's misinformation, that's same misinformation reinforced over

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Speaker 2: and over again and it becomes more credible. There's the

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Speaker 2: joke that misinformation travels around the world before the truth

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Speaker 2: gets up and puts its pants on. Misinformation is really compelling.

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Speaker 2: It's sometimes interesting or intriguing or even funny to some people,

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Speaker 2: and that gets the clicks. And as we know the

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Speaker 2: way the algorithms are shaped, that more clicks gets more attention.

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Speaker 1: We've talked about algorithms on social media before. What goes

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Speaker 1: viral isn't always true. It really helps us understand why

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Speaker 1: it's so important to talk about science denial right now.

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Speaker 1: So when you think about that amplification and what we

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Speaker 1: know about the brain, and the more you see something,

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Speaker 1: the more is reinforced and you begin to believe it.

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Speaker 1: I think all that makes sense in the current context.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes people who are science deniers go overboard and say

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Speaker 1: I'm just waiting for the science. Well, part of the

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Speaker 1: science is assessing risk. Early on and even later in

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Speaker 1: the pandemic, was people outright saying no to mass like,

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Speaker 1: it's not going to keep you one hundred percent safe. Well, ma'am,

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Speaker 1: if it's going to keep you ninety percent safe, I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna say, that's still useful, right, And I think that's

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Speaker 1: the part that we start to see this kind of

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Speaker 1: doubling down on. I'm so scientific. I know ninety is

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Speaker 1: less than one hundred, but I think you also know

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Speaker 1: ninety is higher than zero. You know. It's like if

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Speaker 1: you look at the forecast and it says there's a

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Speaker 1: seventy percent chance of rain. You see that and then

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Speaker 1: you're like, Okay, let me take my umbrella just in case. Right,

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Speaker 1: this is the same thing. You don't say, I'm not

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Speaker 1: gonna take my umbrella because it's not one hundred percent

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Speaker 1: chance of rain exactly. So why don't you apply that

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Speaker 1: same logic to masks. Okay, that's it for now. We

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Speaker 1: don't want to give too much away. TT To hear

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Speaker 1: the full episode, don't forget to follow Dope Labs on

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Speaker 1: Spotify and tap the bell icons and you can get

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Speaker 1: notified as soon as a new episode is up. And

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Speaker 1: don't forget you can listen to Dope Labs semester for

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Speaker 1: for free on Spotify starting November eleventh, See you soon,