WEBVTT - Smart Talks with IBM and Malcolm Gladwell - Couch vs. cubicle: is the future of work hybrid? 0:00:04.080 --> 0:00:07.680 Hello there. This is Smart Talks with IBM podcast from 0:00:07.680 --> 0:00:11.680 Pushkin Industries. I Heart Media and IBM about what it 0:00:11.680 --> 0:00:14.520 means to look at today's most challenging problems in a 0:00:14.520 --> 0:00:21.120 new way. I'm Maltain Glombwell. Today I'm chatting with Adam Grant, 0:00:21.200 --> 0:00:25.079 an organizational psychologist and professor at the Wharton School and 0:00:25.239 --> 0:00:28.440 author of one of my favorite books, Think Again. He's 0:00:28.480 --> 0:00:32.320 a longtime friend and I love to disagree with him. Well, 0:00:32.360 --> 0:00:35.760 I hope you're wrong. I'm afraid you might be partially right, 0:00:36.320 --> 0:00:38.880 which is as much as I can never acknowledge around 0:00:38.920 --> 0:00:41.960 you being right. But uh, you always challenge me to 0:00:42.000 --> 0:00:45.479 think again, which I thoroughly enjoy. This chat was a 0:00:45.520 --> 0:00:49.199 part of ibm s Think Conference, where leading innovators talk 0:00:49.200 --> 0:00:53.279 about technology that makes a difference and other intriguing conversations 0:00:53.560 --> 0:00:58.960 with global perspectives. Let's dive in. You know, I are 0:00:59.120 --> 0:01:02.120 going to have a conversation today about this moment that 0:01:02.200 --> 0:01:06.640 we're in, about whether something transformational has happened in the 0:01:06.680 --> 0:01:11.240 way we live and work and do not expects to agree. 0:01:11.920 --> 0:01:14.600 We disagree on virtually everything, but it's always with an 0:01:14.680 --> 0:01:20.480 undercurrent deeperfection. Adam, welcome, thank you. I don't know if 0:01:20.480 --> 0:01:22.520 we actually disagree on everything, but I kind of like 0:01:22.640 --> 0:01:25.880 the sound of that. It's always important to start on 0:01:26.680 --> 0:01:29.840 to acknowledge the fact that there may be major riffs. 0:01:29.840 --> 0:01:33.360 So you're so Canadian, but keep going. I am very Canadian. 0:01:33.520 --> 0:01:36.120 So I'm going to confess that I may I would 0:01:36.120 --> 0:01:40.280 describe myself as a pandemic skeptic. And I was a 0:01:40.280 --> 0:01:44.040 pandemic skeptic at the very beginning of the pandemic. And 0:01:44.080 --> 0:01:45.880 I'll define what I mean by the skeptic. At a 0:01:45.880 --> 0:01:48.400 moment I wavered in the middle, and now I'm a 0:01:48.440 --> 0:01:51.960 skeptic again. By pandemic skeptic, I mean I do not 0:01:52.160 --> 0:01:55.840 expect the pandemic to radically change the way we work 0:01:56.400 --> 0:01:58.200 or even live our lives. I think it's all going 0:01:58.240 --> 0:02:01.200 to go away. Do where whe would you? Where would 0:02:01.200 --> 0:02:04.840 you stand on that? On the continuum of radical transformation 0:02:04.880 --> 0:02:08.680 at one end, radical skepticism on the other. Well, I 0:02:08.720 --> 0:02:12.160 hope you're wrong. I'm afraid you might be partially ripe, 0:02:12.560 --> 0:02:15.080 which is as much as I can never acknowledge around 0:02:15.160 --> 0:02:18.200 you being right. But uh, you always challenge me to 0:02:18.240 --> 0:02:21.239 think again, which I thoroughly enjoy. I think you know 0:02:21.280 --> 0:02:23.600 that I've already started to see some real changes, right, 0:02:23.639 --> 0:02:26.800 So let's go back to winter. I went to a 0:02:26.840 --> 0:02:29.200 bunch of CEOs and startup founders and said, I think 0:02:29.200 --> 0:02:31.280 the future of work might be hybrid. Let's do a 0:02:31.320 --> 0:02:34.079 remote Friday experiment where people have one day a week 0:02:34.120 --> 0:02:36.880 to work from anywhere. And every single leader I pitch 0:02:36.960 --> 0:02:38.919 turned me down. They said, we don't want to open 0:02:38.919 --> 0:02:41.680 Pandora's box. We think people will procrastinate constantly and our 0:02:41.720 --> 0:02:44.120 culture is going to fall apart. And a lot of 0:02:44.120 --> 0:02:46.720 those CEOs have started rethinking, right. Some of them announced 0:02:46.760 --> 0:02:49.320 they're going to be permanently remote, many others are at 0:02:49.400 --> 0:02:52.280 least rolling out hybrid plans. And so I don't think 0:02:52.320 --> 0:02:54.880 the flexibility is going away, right. They've realized now I 0:02:54.880 --> 0:02:57.520 can hire anywhere, I don't have to maintain a really 0:02:57.520 --> 0:03:01.400 expensive giant headquarters office necessarily. And I've got to imagine 0:03:01.440 --> 0:03:03.640 that some companies, especially when you look at the National 0:03:03.639 --> 0:03:06.600 Survey data suggesting that most people are expecting to work 0:03:06.600 --> 0:03:08.760 two days a week from home, and most companies are 0:03:08.800 --> 0:03:11.600 encouraging that. That seems like something that's going to change, 0:03:11.680 --> 0:03:15.160 don't you think, well? I yes, and no, um I 0:03:15.160 --> 0:03:17.239 feel like there was obviously a steady push in that 0:03:17.400 --> 0:03:20.880 direction over the last fifteen years or so. But my 0:03:21.040 --> 0:03:24.720 I have some specific questions. So the first will be 0:03:24.760 --> 0:03:28.240 young people. My sense from the young people who work 0:03:28.320 --> 0:03:32.040 at my company and my memories of my own thinking 0:03:32.040 --> 0:03:34.320 when I was in my twenties was that going to 0:03:34.400 --> 0:03:39.560 the office was the single most exciting thing in my week. Right. 0:03:41.400 --> 0:03:44.840 I wanted to meet, I was new, I wanted to learn. 0:03:45.080 --> 0:03:47.440 When I was at the Washington Post, I was ten 0:03:47.520 --> 0:03:51.160 ft from Bob Woodward, the greatest reporter of my generation, 0:03:51.240 --> 0:03:53.400 was ten ft away. I knew nothing about reporting. He 0:03:53.480 --> 0:03:57.200 knew everything. And I used to sit and watch him 0:03:57.400 --> 0:04:01.280 and listen, and I learned so much from that. Next 0:04:01.280 --> 0:04:05.920 to me was a guy named Michaelisakoff, another legendary investigate reporter. 0:04:06.240 --> 0:04:08.400 He was next to me. I would sit and listen, 0:04:08.880 --> 0:04:11.240 and I understood that the only way I would get 0:04:11.400 --> 0:04:14.920 I would learn that way was to go to the office, right, 0:04:15.400 --> 0:04:16.960 I mean, there was just no reason not to go 0:04:17.000 --> 0:04:19.160 to the office. No, do I feel the same way now? 0:04:19.160 --> 0:04:22.640 It kick me seven, No, I don't. But if you're 0:04:22.640 --> 0:04:26.000 a company that employs young people, can you really hire 0:04:26.040 --> 0:04:28.640 the best and brightest young people by saying we're going 0:04:28.720 --> 0:04:30.880 to have you work out of your apartment or a 0:04:31.000 --> 0:04:37.880 Starbucks seems nuts to me. No, I don't think you can. 0:04:38.000 --> 0:04:39.520 But I also don't think you're gonna get the best 0:04:39.520 --> 0:04:41.479 and brightest young people by saying you have to be 0:04:41.520 --> 0:04:43.640 in the office every day and we're going to measure 0:04:44.080 --> 0:04:46.880 not your results, not your contribution, but the amount of 0:04:46.920 --> 0:04:49.800 FaceTime that you contribute. That seems ridiculous. And I hope 0:04:49.839 --> 0:04:52.920 that that's one thing that the pandemic erased. I think 0:04:53.200 --> 0:04:55.160 you know we I guess we have precedent for this 0:04:55.200 --> 0:04:59.000 in some ways. So think about what Ricardo similar did 0:04:58.960 --> 0:05:02.159 at Semco as an interesting example, right, originally in Brazil 0:05:02.279 --> 0:05:06.840 now in Twentiesome countries, very traditional manufacturing company. They say 0:05:06.960 --> 0:05:09.320 we will let you buy back one day a week 0:05:09.640 --> 0:05:12.200 for ten percent of your salary. And they're thinking, this 0:05:12.240 --> 0:05:14.880 is an early retirement move that will, you know, appeal 0:05:14.920 --> 0:05:16.680 to the baby boomers who say, all right, I want 0:05:16.680 --> 0:05:18.919 to enjoy a day a week of retirement before I 0:05:18.960 --> 0:05:22.320 get really old. But no, it's most popular among their 0:05:22.360 --> 0:05:25.000 youngest employees in their twenties and thirties, who want that 0:05:25.120 --> 0:05:27.040 day of freedom. And I think this is gonna be 0:05:27.080 --> 0:05:29.839 a competitive advantage for companies moving forward. Right, the organizations 0:05:29.839 --> 0:05:31.200 that are willing to give you that little bit of 0:05:31.240 --> 0:05:34.320 flexibility are going to do a much better job attracting, motivating, 0:05:34.320 --> 0:05:36.520 and retaining people than the ones that say you have 0:05:36.600 --> 0:05:39.159 to be here all the time. Well so, but there's 0:05:39.200 --> 0:05:43.480 two things we're talking about here. One is workplace flexibility 0:05:43.960 --> 0:05:48.520 and the other is dislocation, right, remote work, And they're 0:05:48.640 --> 0:05:51.680 very they're quite separate. So I am quite in fact, 0:05:51.720 --> 0:05:54.760 I practice flexibility, have been breaxting it for years and 0:05:54.800 --> 0:05:56.240 years and years. I love the oppoe. I don't go 0:05:56.240 --> 0:05:58.479 into the oppice every day, nor do I expect all 0:05:58.480 --> 0:06:00.880 of our employees to come in every day at the 0:06:00.920 --> 0:06:04.159 same time. For certain key events, like in my for 0:06:04.240 --> 0:06:07.080 a podcast, The crucial moment in the creation of one 0:06:07.080 --> 0:06:10.040 of my episodes of the Revisionist History is the table read, 0:06:10.640 --> 0:06:13.680 where we reenact the podcast that we're working on. I 0:06:13.760 --> 0:06:16.159 read the narration and we play the tape. I have 0:06:16.200 --> 0:06:19.640 a team of six people and we've been doing those 0:06:19.640 --> 0:06:22.719 on zoom and I'm sorry it doesn't work on zoom 0:06:22.760 --> 0:06:25.960 And I actually said and to our staff, the minute 0:06:25.960 --> 0:06:28.520 we're all vaccinated, we are meeting again in person. Because 0:06:29.080 --> 0:06:32.400 this is creative work. It can't be done. I need 0:06:32.480 --> 0:06:35.640 your feedback in the room. I doesn't work on Zoom, 0:06:35.640 --> 0:06:40.279 so that you know that idea. I don't mind the flexibility. 0:06:40.360 --> 0:06:43.720 But if someone said to me, I'm in Denver, Colorado, 0:06:43.800 --> 0:06:46.120 and I'm your producer and I'm going to work from 0:06:46.160 --> 0:06:48.120 Denver for now, and I say you can't work endever, 0:06:48.240 --> 0:06:50.720 I'm sorry, you can't. You need to be unless you're 0:06:50.720 --> 0:06:53.320 willing to fly in two days a week and then 0:06:53.440 --> 0:06:55.839 fly back, fly into New York and fly back. It 0:06:55.839 --> 0:06:59.919 doesn't work. Malcolm Gladwell, you are one of the smartest 0:07:00.080 --> 0:07:03.559 and most creative people I know, and yet you can't 0:07:03.560 --> 0:07:06.200 bring yourself to imagine doing a table read for a 0:07:06.200 --> 0:07:10.680 product that's audio only without seeing people's faces, when you 0:07:10.680 --> 0:07:14.040 yourself wrote in talking to Strangers that we overrate seeing 0:07:14.040 --> 0:07:19.360 people's faces. No, no, no, I don't interesting interesting. Why 0:07:19.400 --> 0:07:21.160 do I need them in the room when I'm doing 0:07:21.160 --> 0:07:23.040 a table read? I need them in the room because 0:07:23.840 --> 0:07:27.760 it's imperfect. So I'm creating a product for audio, but 0:07:27.800 --> 0:07:31.000 I'm only in round one of what will be four rounds, 0:07:31.440 --> 0:07:33.760 and I mean I'm handing in something that is very 0:07:33.840 --> 0:07:37.760 much your work in progress. I need immediate, high quality 0:07:37.840 --> 0:07:42.560 feedback B. I have found I also need my entire 0:07:42.640 --> 0:07:45.160 team to pipe up. And I have found that people's 0:07:45.200 --> 0:07:48.400 responses are inhibited online and that doesn't work for me. 0:07:48.800 --> 0:07:51.640 I need everyone I want to say, I want to 0:07:51.920 --> 0:07:56.000 I keep telling them that this, even dumb comments are useful, 0:07:56.600 --> 0:07:58.960 and I feel, I feel maybe this is incorrect. I 0:07:59.000 --> 0:08:04.000 feel that on Zoom people are editing themselves more and 0:08:04.760 --> 0:08:08.960 even one when I'm doing a table read, one comment, 0:08:09.160 --> 0:08:12.640 even a dumb comment, can be transformational in the final script, 0:08:13.200 --> 0:08:16.280 so I can't afford closing their mouth when they should 0:08:16.280 --> 0:08:20.240 open it. I accept the whole premise. I think all 0:08:20.280 --> 0:08:22.560 of it makes sense, except the basic idea that you 0:08:22.600 --> 0:08:25.800 can't create the psychological safety you're looking for, that freedom 0:08:25.800 --> 0:08:28.400 to take risks and point out problems and that ideas fly. 0:08:29.040 --> 0:08:31.680 That you can't create that in an online environment. So 0:08:31.800 --> 0:08:33.800 let me throw out a couple examples of how I 0:08:33.800 --> 0:08:40.160 think this works. First of all, adm Adam position healed myself. 0:08:40.760 --> 0:08:42.280 Are you trying to tell me that you're gonna give 0:08:42.360 --> 0:08:44.280 up on teaching in person now that you so in 0:08:44.360 --> 0:08:47.199 love with online that Wharton is gonna go going to 0:08:47.280 --> 0:08:49.800 turn into a digital platform. Is that what you're saying. 0:08:50.400 --> 0:08:53.280 That's exactly where I was not going, but sort of going. 0:08:55.880 --> 0:08:57.200 Let me say a couple of things here. The first 0:08:57.240 --> 0:08:59.720 one is that I just came from a table read 0:09:00.040 --> 0:09:02.640 a work life episode that we did over zoom, and 0:09:02.760 --> 0:09:05.240 I got better feedback than we did when we did 0:09:05.240 --> 0:09:08.120 these face to face, because we know that you you 0:09:08.160 --> 0:09:10.920 know the science of brainstorming right in group brainstorming, and 0:09:10.960 --> 0:09:13.200 this is true in group feedback too. You run into 0:09:13.240 --> 0:09:15.120 production blocking where we can all talk it once and 0:09:15.160 --> 0:09:17.680 you lose ideas. You run into ego threat where people 0:09:17.679 --> 0:09:19.800 are worried they're gonna get judged and we lose ideas, 0:09:19.960 --> 0:09:23.040 and you run in into conformity where the hippo that's you, 0:09:23.120 --> 0:09:25.640 the highest paid person's opinion. As soon as that's known, 0:09:25.679 --> 0:09:28.679 we all jump on the bandwagon. And we know that 0:09:28.720 --> 0:09:30.960 if you can give people multiple channels for voicing their 0:09:30.960 --> 0:09:33.760 independent ideas, they're better off. There is a chat window 0:09:33.800 --> 0:09:36.160 and zoom. I don't know if you're tech savvy enough 0:09:36.240 --> 0:09:39.640 to have discovered it yet, but I will tell you 0:09:39.679 --> 0:09:43.920 that I have had both in teaching online and also 0:09:44.120 --> 0:09:47.120 in the group table reads of my podcast and in 0:09:47.600 --> 0:09:49.839 actually getting feedback from my students on the early drafts 0:09:49.840 --> 0:09:53.320 of Think Again, I have had more honest and more 0:09:53.520 --> 0:09:55.920 i would say, diverse comments than I've ever gotten before 0:09:55.960 --> 0:09:58.360 because there are all these people who would not speak 0:09:58.400 --> 0:10:00.439 up out loud, but we have this very the active 0:10:00.480 --> 0:10:03.360 chat window going, and it allows me to get everybody's 0:10:03.400 --> 0:10:06.680 participation in. So, no, I don't want to leave teaching 0:10:07.040 --> 0:10:10.640 online only, but I would sure love, like I've been 0:10:10.640 --> 0:10:13.280 able to do online, to call on someone who's gonna 0:10:13.320 --> 0:10:15.720 bring up a relevant point or debate me on something, 0:10:15.920 --> 0:10:18.080 as opposed to the random hand that happens to be 0:10:18.160 --> 0:10:21.280 willing to speak, which is usually a white male extrovert 0:10:21.440 --> 0:10:23.400 and least likely to be the person that I want 0:10:23.400 --> 0:10:31.600 to learn from. Uh you know so, No, No, I'm not. 0:10:31.760 --> 0:10:34.840 I'm saying you and I are probably an agreement in 0:10:34.880 --> 0:10:38.080 the sense that I have that mode as well. So 0:10:39.240 --> 0:10:42.280 as we go through the drafts of my episodes, we 0:10:42.440 --> 0:10:45.440 move from an in person to an online thing and 0:10:45.520 --> 0:10:48.320 people weigh in editor's way, and it's a it's a 0:10:48.320 --> 0:10:50.320 Google dog. People can make all the comments they want 0:10:50.360 --> 0:10:53.520 and they do, so I have that I'm just saying 0:10:53.520 --> 0:10:56.880 there's a particular moment in the creative process where the 0:10:57.040 --> 0:11:00.640 room and the energy in the room is important to 0:11:00.840 --> 0:11:05.600 measure and to feed off. But wait before you leave that, 0:11:06.000 --> 0:11:07.600 Before you leave that, I think, I think that's an 0:11:07.600 --> 0:11:11.040 important distinction to make here. Um. I think, so you're 0:11:11.040 --> 0:11:13.760 talking about what Anita Wolley would call it burstinus, right, 0:11:13.840 --> 0:11:16.360 that sense that the room is literally bursting with energy 0:11:16.400 --> 0:11:19.560 and ideas. And I don't know how to recreate that online. Right. 0:11:19.600 --> 0:11:21.439 I feel like we're violating one of the laws of 0:11:21.480 --> 0:11:24.400 thermodynamics every time I have a zoom session where I 0:11:24.440 --> 0:11:27.520 put in a ton of energy unless comes back. And 0:11:27.559 --> 0:11:29.920 I think that part is very hard to replicate in 0:11:29.960 --> 0:11:32.440 the online environment. But I think sometimes the flow of 0:11:32.440 --> 0:11:37.000 ideas is still worth it. Yeah. The second and more 0:11:37.080 --> 0:11:40.800 important point, though, is about fun. So I have had, 0:11:41.240 --> 0:11:43.679 You've had more conversations, but I've had, you know, a 0:11:43.720 --> 0:11:46.640 lot of conversations with college kids over the last year, 0:11:47.200 --> 0:11:50.840 and I have yet to find a single college kid 0:11:51.080 --> 0:11:53.880 who found the last year more pleasurable than the year 0:11:53.920 --> 0:11:56.640 before it? Right? Or high school kids? They all hate it? 0:11:57.000 --> 0:11:59.600 Why do they hate it? Because it's not as fun now? 0:11:59.640 --> 0:12:03.600 I just the same is true of employees. Sure, even 0:12:03.640 --> 0:12:06.960 if you convinced me that Zoom was a more efficient 0:12:06.960 --> 0:12:11.880 way to get feedback from my employees. You cannot convince 0:12:11.920 --> 0:12:15.880 me that they're enjoying it more. And ultimately, if they're 0:12:15.880 --> 0:12:19.640 not enjoying their jobs, we're doomed as a company. As 0:12:19.679 --> 0:12:22.720 simple as that. The whole point, the founding principle of 0:12:22.800 --> 0:12:26.760 Pushkin Industries, from the moment this company was I'm now 0:12:26.960 --> 0:12:28.360 talking about my company that I started two and a 0:12:28.400 --> 0:12:30.920 half years ago. Jacob and I when we sat down 0:12:30.920 --> 0:12:33.079 to start the company, we were like, we're gonna make 0:12:33.080 --> 0:12:37.520 cool things. Number two, We're going to have fun, right 0:12:37.920 --> 0:12:40.320 and if everything is online, it's not fun. And as 0:12:40.360 --> 0:12:43.280 far as I'm concerned, we've failed. I want to have fun. 0:12:43.480 --> 0:12:46.400 Is that wrong? Why are you? Why are you standing 0:12:46.400 --> 0:12:49.680 in the way of my enjoyment and my employees enjoyment. 0:12:51.040 --> 0:12:53.319 I'm standing in the way of your enjoyment because you 0:12:53.360 --> 0:12:55.720 would never be allowed to run a company. Can you? 0:12:55.800 --> 0:12:58.880 Can you imagine Malcolm Gladwell, see, yeah, like you know what, 0:12:58.880 --> 0:13:01.240 we're gonna make cool stuff. It almost as important as 0:13:01.280 --> 0:13:03.000 we're going to have a lot of fun. That would 0:13:03.040 --> 0:13:06.000 never work. Well Street would laugh you out of your 0:13:06.040 --> 0:13:08.800 job in a day. Wait, wait wait, wait, wait, wait, 0:13:08.800 --> 0:13:12.760 hold on, hold on, Adam, in the course, don't count 0:13:12.760 --> 0:13:16.880 pandemic here in how many years have you been teaching teaching? 0:13:17.040 --> 0:13:20.280 I don't know, fifteen maybe, Okay. Do you have fun 0:13:20.320 --> 0:13:24.720 doing it? Of course that's part of the fun. Hold on, 0:13:24.720 --> 0:13:28.439 hold on, hold on. If you didn't have fun doing it, 0:13:29.120 --> 0:13:34.000 would you have left your job as professor by this point? No, 0:13:34.120 --> 0:13:36.480 because I think it's meaningful and I'd rather bet on 0:13:36.559 --> 0:13:39.320 purpose than pleasure. You would have gritted it out for 0:13:39.400 --> 0:13:43.720 fifteen years, even though it's like every morning like, oh 0:13:43.720 --> 0:13:45.440 do I have to do this again? And you would 0:13:45.440 --> 0:13:48.520 have like looked at your wife and she said, Adam, 0:13:48.559 --> 0:13:51.840 there's no way around it. Just grab your hard hat 0:13:51.880 --> 0:13:54.680 and go off to the salt mines. Please, I'm not 0:13:54.760 --> 0:13:56.840 buying it. You would have got because a million other 0:13:56.920 --> 0:13:58.720 things you could have done that that could have made 0:13:58.720 --> 0:14:00.200 you a good living, that you could have found fun. 0:14:00.200 --> 0:14:03.959 You would not have stayed a professor. It wasn't fun. Okay. 0:14:03.960 --> 0:14:06.319 Maybe it depends on how you define fun. So I'm 0:14:06.320 --> 0:14:08.840 thinking now of Dan Coyle's distinction between deep fun and 0:14:08.840 --> 0:14:11.320 shallow fund, and when you stay fun, I'm thinking about 0:14:11.320 --> 0:14:13.280 shallow fund, which is you know, we're going to go 0:14:13.320 --> 0:14:15.839 and party and we're basically going to revert to our 0:14:15.880 --> 0:14:18.440 college selves. That is not my idea of fun. My 0:14:18.480 --> 0:14:20.920 idea of fund is deep fund, which is we're working 0:14:20.960 --> 0:14:25.080 on hard, interesting problems. Sometimes we laugh, sometimes we're you know, 0:14:25.080 --> 0:14:27.080 we're really puzzled and confused, and we're trying to get 0:14:27.080 --> 0:14:29.480 to the bottom of an important question. And I think 0:14:29.480 --> 0:14:31.080 you can have that kind of deep fund in a 0:14:31.160 --> 0:14:33.520 virtual world. In fact, it's the same kind of deep 0:14:33.560 --> 0:14:35.320 fund that I have when I'm writing books, and I 0:14:35.360 --> 0:14:37.680 think you have it too. Isn't that fun? Are you 0:14:37.720 --> 0:14:39.880 saying that the time you spend sitting in front of 0:14:39.880 --> 0:14:42.960 your computer writing New Yorker articles and best selling books 0:14:43.280 --> 0:14:48.880 is not fun? It is. It is fun, but there's 0:14:48.920 --> 0:14:54.240 a lot. So let me tell you about a conversation 0:14:54.240 --> 0:14:56.040 I had this weekend with an old college friend of 0:14:56.040 --> 0:15:00.400 mine who's now uh he's a senior this trade or 0:15:00.480 --> 0:15:04.640 a big hospital system, very large hospital system, and he 0:15:05.320 --> 0:15:07.480 was talking about what the last year has been like 0:15:08.080 --> 0:15:10.680 and also every time I've seen him, but over the 0:15:10.720 --> 0:15:14.400 last five years he has registered a long complaint about 0:15:14.400 --> 0:15:19.240 electronic medical records, which are part of this conversation, right 0:15:19.520 --> 0:15:22.040 so as his rule has gotten more digital. He will 0:15:22.040 --> 0:15:24.880 tell you he's now in charge of he's the chief 0:15:24.920 --> 0:15:27.800 well being officer for his hospital system, and they have 0:15:27.840 --> 0:15:31.320 a serious problem with morale in their ranks. He will 0:15:31.360 --> 0:15:33.440 be the first to tell you this. Why do they 0:15:33.440 --> 0:15:37.480 have a serious problem with him? Among other reasons, because 0:15:38.160 --> 0:15:41.760 the people entered the profession to do something and have 0:15:41.800 --> 0:15:45.120 an experience that they're not having anymore. My friend can 0:15:45.400 --> 0:15:48.520 decontrack when people are online late at night doing their 0:15:49.320 --> 0:15:52.360 electronic medical record and they're they're logging on eleven at 0:15:52.480 --> 0:15:55.760 night two and it's just not He's like, that's the 0:15:55.840 --> 0:15:58.400 death of I'm not gonna be able to retain those people. 0:15:58.400 --> 0:16:00.440 They're not going to do good work. They're gonna turn out. 0:16:00.920 --> 0:16:04.920 That's the daily reality of his job, is that they're 0:16:04.960 --> 0:16:07.160 trying to do something very important in society, and the 0:16:07.200 --> 0:16:10.800 people who are charged with doing that are not enjoying themselves. 0:16:11.320 --> 0:16:14.320 What do they enjoy? They enjoy sitting down and getting 0:16:14.320 --> 0:16:18.120 to know a patient. That's why they became doctors, right, 0:16:18.800 --> 0:16:21.360 and so this last year when everything's been done really 0:16:21.440 --> 0:16:26.320 has been hell. Correctly, that's not why they became physicians. 0:16:27.000 --> 0:16:29.240 So like, they're not gonna want to do we want 0:16:29.240 --> 0:16:31.600 to continue this for them. No, there'll be no one 0:16:31.680 --> 0:16:35.000 left in the hospitals to cure patients, give them their 0:16:35.040 --> 0:16:38.240 patients back, because that's the deep fund is gone when 0:16:38.240 --> 0:16:40.560 they're on computers all their love. Yeah, I think we're 0:16:40.560 --> 0:16:43.880 in strong alignment there. I definitely do not want to 0:16:43.920 --> 0:16:46.040 take somebody who got into a profession to help people 0:16:46.080 --> 0:16:48.960 and say you're going to spend of your time entering 0:16:49.000 --> 0:16:52.320 information and electronic medical records. But I think that's the 0:16:52.400 --> 0:16:56.080 presence of an unpleasant, pleasant task, right, not anything inherent 0:16:56.200 --> 0:17:00.200 to working electronically or virtually. Um. I think there. I've 0:17:00.240 --> 0:17:02.240 met surgeons over the past year who said, you know what, 0:17:02.360 --> 0:17:04.640 going remote has been the best thing I've been able 0:17:04.640 --> 0:17:06.720 to do because I can spread my expertise around the 0:17:06.720 --> 0:17:08.760 world more efficiently. I don't have to travel to go 0:17:08.840 --> 0:17:12.040 and do a grand rounds. I can reach patients who 0:17:12.280 --> 0:17:14.560 you know, otherwise wouldn't be able to benefit from my care. 0:17:14.800 --> 0:17:17.760 And that's been a really meaningful changed my job. And 0:17:17.800 --> 0:17:19.119 so what I want to do is I want to 0:17:19.160 --> 0:17:21.439 I want to keep that connectivity and meaning, and I 0:17:21.440 --> 0:17:23.400 want to subtract out some of the things that are 0:17:23.480 --> 0:17:25.760 clearly a source of burnout and a chore for too 0:17:25.800 --> 0:17:29.160 many people in too many jobs. So look, wait, let's 0:17:29.200 --> 0:17:32.399 let's talk about your job for a moment. We alluded 0:17:32.400 --> 0:17:36.320 to it earlier. But so you're at a school which 0:17:36.400 --> 0:17:38.879 is very selected and which charges a lot of money 0:17:39.680 --> 0:17:42.720 right for presumably because of an expectation of a certain 0:17:42.800 --> 0:17:46.199 kind of experience. So what do you do? What do 0:17:46.240 --> 0:17:48.520 you guys do next year? In the year after, do 0:17:49.040 --> 0:17:50.919 you do you cut your tuition and a half and 0:17:51.000 --> 0:17:54.840 go zoom classes or what are you gonna do? I 0:17:54.920 --> 0:17:57.119 don't know yet. I think it's an open question. I 0:17:57.160 --> 0:17:59.280 think the first thing we should be doing is running experiments, 0:17:59.320 --> 0:18:03.399 which you know, look, I'm obviously, like everyone else, devastated 0:18:03.400 --> 0:18:06.200 by the pandemic, but given that we're stuck with it, 0:18:06.200 --> 0:18:07.840 it has been a good excuse for us to do 0:18:07.880 --> 0:18:10.760 a lot of rethinking and experimentation. So I mentioned the 0:18:10.800 --> 0:18:13.719 chat window earlier. When I started teaching online, some colleagues 0:18:13.720 --> 0:18:15.919 and I said, all right, we're gonna use hashtags, and 0:18:15.960 --> 0:18:17.959 we had students put in hashtag question if they had 0:18:17.960 --> 0:18:21.080 a question, hashtag on fire if they had a burning 0:18:21.160 --> 0:18:23.600 question or comment. And that means if I see on fire, 0:18:23.640 --> 0:18:26.320 I will literally stop in mid sentence, floor is yours? 0:18:26.359 --> 0:18:28.800 And that way you know you can jump the line um. 0:18:28.880 --> 0:18:31.520 We had had then added hashtag a ha if you 0:18:31.560 --> 0:18:33.720 had a Eureka moment, which helped me track what people 0:18:33.760 --> 0:18:36.119 were learning. And sometimes I realized I hadn't got my 0:18:36.119 --> 0:18:39.920 point across. Other times I saw that I clearly made 0:18:39.960 --> 0:18:41.520 a point that I didn't even realize that would making 0:18:41.680 --> 0:18:44.240 was making. And then in some cases too, it was 0:18:44.359 --> 0:18:46.320 kind of a guide for students to track the learning 0:18:46.359 --> 0:18:48.639 that was happening as it went. My favorite thing that 0:18:48.760 --> 0:18:51.840 was hashtag debate, where if somebody wanted to disagree with 0:18:51.880 --> 0:18:53.840 me or one of their classmates, I could get them 0:18:53.840 --> 0:18:56.360 into the conversation UM. And I think that it's such 0:18:56.359 --> 0:18:58.200 a small innovation, right, but I don't want to lose 0:18:58.240 --> 0:18:59.960 that when I go back into the classroom. I want 0:19:00.000 --> 0:19:01.640 to keep that dialogue going. I don't know what that's 0:19:01.640 --> 0:19:03.960 gonna look like yet, but I wanted to happen. And 0:19:04.000 --> 0:19:05.720 then the other thing that that really opened up that 0:19:05.760 --> 0:19:07.600 I've never been able to do before is we brought 0:19:07.640 --> 0:19:10.040 guest speakers from all over the world. Instead of just 0:19:10.200 --> 0:19:12.439 asking the people who live in or near Philly, I 0:19:12.520 --> 0:19:14.919 was able to go to people in multiple countries, on 0:19:15.000 --> 0:19:18.320 multiple continents, um in lots of interesting places, and say, hey, 0:19:18.320 --> 0:19:20.199 would you come to class for half an hour? I 0:19:20.240 --> 0:19:23.400 think I might go guest speakers fully and permanently remote now, 0:19:23.960 --> 0:19:25.600 because it means we can all go on zoom and 0:19:25.640 --> 0:19:28.240 we can have an awesome conversation with somebody who would 0:19:28.280 --> 0:19:30.960 never show up in my class. So I want to 0:19:30.960 --> 0:19:33.000 see us do more of those kinds of experiments. But 0:19:33.040 --> 0:19:35.520 I don't want to give up on the burstinus or 0:19:35.600 --> 0:19:41.360 the connection that happens in the physical classroom. Is that fair? Yeah? 0:19:41.400 --> 0:19:44.120 I did it, It's fair. I would a couple of 0:19:44.880 --> 0:19:49.840 caveats here, which is that, Um? I wonder whether there 0:19:49.920 --> 0:19:54.160 isn't a great deal of nuance and variability in different 0:19:54.200 --> 0:19:59.920 audiences responses to digital environments. So I need an as 0:20:00.040 --> 0:20:02.800 to a question. Suppose I have a room full of 0:20:02.880 --> 0:20:08.920 kids in a economically disadvantaged neighborhood there in fourth grade. Um, 0:20:09.000 --> 0:20:11.400 how much what is the right what is the right 0:20:11.520 --> 0:20:15.399 mix of online and in person for that group versus 0:20:16.640 --> 0:20:20.600 your students are not only are they much older, but 0:20:20.680 --> 0:20:22.960 they are you know, the best in the broadest, So 0:20:23.000 --> 0:20:25.159 the cream of the crop is it? Does that make 0:20:25.200 --> 0:20:28.800 a difference. Are they are is a more mature and 0:20:28.880 --> 0:20:34.200 disciplined and um intellectually engaged group of students better suited 0:20:34.280 --> 0:20:39.320 for online experiences than kids? You know, I think both 0:20:39.359 --> 0:20:42.040 of us have suspicions about the answer that question. But 0:20:42.119 --> 0:20:45.359 I wonder whether we need to get a lot more 0:20:45.520 --> 0:20:49.800 nuanced in what mixes worth work best for what kinds 0:20:49.800 --> 0:20:53.360 of students and what kinds of situations. Yeah, I think 0:20:53.359 --> 0:20:55.400