1 00:00:04,080 --> 00:00:07,680 Speaker 1: Hello there. This is Smart Talks with IBM podcast from 2 00:00:07,680 --> 00:00:11,680 Speaker 1: Pushkin Industries. I Heart Media and IBM about what it 3 00:00:11,680 --> 00:00:14,520 Speaker 1: means to look at today's most challenging problems in a 4 00:00:14,520 --> 00:00:21,120 Speaker 1: new way. I'm Maltain Glombwell. Today I'm chatting with Adam Grant, 5 00:00:21,200 --> 00:00:25,079 Speaker 1: an organizational psychologist and professor at the Wharton School and 6 00:00:25,239 --> 00:00:28,440 Speaker 1: author of one of my favorite books, Think Again. He's 7 00:00:28,480 --> 00:00:32,320 Speaker 1: a longtime friend and I love to disagree with him. Well, 8 00:00:32,360 --> 00:00:35,760 Speaker 1: I hope you're wrong. I'm afraid you might be partially right, 9 00:00:36,320 --> 00:00:38,880 Speaker 1: which is as much as I can never acknowledge around 10 00:00:38,920 --> 00:00:41,960 Speaker 1: you being right. But uh, you always challenge me to 11 00:00:42,000 --> 00:00:45,479 Speaker 1: think again, which I thoroughly enjoy. This chat was a 12 00:00:45,520 --> 00:00:49,199 Speaker 1: part of ibm s Think Conference, where leading innovators talk 13 00:00:49,200 --> 00:00:53,279 Speaker 1: about technology that makes a difference and other intriguing conversations 14 00:00:53,560 --> 00:00:58,960 Speaker 1: with global perspectives. Let's dive in. You know, I are 15 00:00:59,120 --> 00:01:02,120 Speaker 1: going to have a conversation today about this moment that 16 00:01:02,200 --> 00:01:06,640 Speaker 1: we're in, about whether something transformational has happened in the 17 00:01:06,680 --> 00:01:11,240 Speaker 1: way we live and work and do not expects to agree. 18 00:01:11,920 --> 00:01:14,600 Speaker 1: We disagree on virtually everything, but it's always with an 19 00:01:14,680 --> 00:01:20,480 Speaker 1: undercurrent deeperfection. Adam, welcome, thank you. I don't know if 20 00:01:20,480 --> 00:01:22,520 Speaker 1: we actually disagree on everything, but I kind of like 21 00:01:22,640 --> 00:01:25,880 Speaker 1: the sound of that. It's always important to start on 22 00:01:26,680 --> 00:01:29,840 Speaker 1: to acknowledge the fact that there may be major riffs. 23 00:01:29,840 --> 00:01:33,360 Speaker 1: So you're so Canadian, but keep going. I am very Canadian. 24 00:01:33,520 --> 00:01:36,120 Speaker 1: So I'm going to confess that I may I would 25 00:01:36,120 --> 00:01:40,280 Speaker 1: describe myself as a pandemic skeptic. And I was a 26 00:01:40,280 --> 00:01:44,040 Speaker 1: pandemic skeptic at the very beginning of the pandemic. And 27 00:01:44,080 --> 00:01:45,880 Speaker 1: I'll define what I mean by the skeptic. At a 28 00:01:45,880 --> 00:01:48,400 Speaker 1: moment I wavered in the middle, and now I'm a 29 00:01:48,440 --> 00:01:51,960 Speaker 1: skeptic again. By pandemic skeptic, I mean I do not 30 00:01:52,160 --> 00:01:55,840 Speaker 1: expect the pandemic to radically change the way we work 31 00:01:56,400 --> 00:01:58,200 Speaker 1: or even live our lives. I think it's all going 32 00:01:58,240 --> 00:02:01,200 Speaker 1: to go away. Do where whe would you? Where would 33 00:02:01,200 --> 00:02:04,840 Speaker 1: you stand on that? On the continuum of radical transformation 34 00:02:04,880 --> 00:02:08,680 Speaker 1: at one end, radical skepticism on the other. Well, I 35 00:02:08,720 --> 00:02:12,160 Speaker 1: hope you're wrong. I'm afraid you might be partially ripe, 36 00:02:12,560 --> 00:02:15,080 Speaker 1: which is as much as I can never acknowledge around 37 00:02:15,160 --> 00:02:18,200 Speaker 1: you being right. But uh, you always challenge me to 38 00:02:18,240 --> 00:02:21,239 Speaker 1: think again, which I thoroughly enjoy. I think you know 39 00:02:21,280 --> 00:02:23,600 Speaker 1: that I've already started to see some real changes, right, 40 00:02:23,639 --> 00:02:26,800 Speaker 1: So let's go back to winter. I went to a 41 00:02:26,840 --> 00:02:29,200 Speaker 1: bunch of CEOs and startup founders and said, I think 42 00:02:29,200 --> 00:02:31,280 Speaker 1: the future of work might be hybrid. Let's do a 43 00:02:31,320 --> 00:02:34,079 Speaker 1: remote Friday experiment where people have one day a week 44 00:02:34,120 --> 00:02:36,880 Speaker 1: to work from anywhere. And every single leader I pitch 45 00:02:36,960 --> 00:02:38,919 Speaker 1: turned me down. They said, we don't want to open 46 00:02:38,919 --> 00:02:41,680 Speaker 1: Pandora's box. We think people will procrastinate constantly and our 47 00:02:41,720 --> 00:02:44,120 Speaker 1: culture is going to fall apart. And a lot of 48 00:02:44,120 --> 00:02:46,720 Speaker 1: those CEOs have started rethinking, right. Some of them announced 49 00:02:46,760 --> 00:02:49,320 Speaker 1: they're going to be permanently remote, many others are at 50 00:02:49,400 --> 00:02:52,280 Speaker 1: least rolling out hybrid plans. And so I don't think 51 00:02:52,320 --> 00:02:54,880 Speaker 1: the flexibility is going away, right. They've realized now I 52 00:02:54,880 --> 00:02:57,520 Speaker 1: can hire anywhere, I don't have to maintain a really 53 00:02:57,520 --> 00:03:01,400 Speaker 1: expensive giant headquarters office necessarily. And I've got to imagine 54 00:03:01,440 --> 00:03:03,640 Speaker 1: that some companies, especially when you look at the National 55 00:03:03,639 --> 00:03:06,600 Speaker 1: Survey data suggesting that most people are expecting to work 56 00:03:06,600 --> 00:03:08,760 Speaker 1: two days a week from home, and most companies are 57 00:03:08,800 --> 00:03:11,600 Speaker 1: encouraging that. That seems like something that's going to change, 58 00:03:11,680 --> 00:03:15,160 Speaker 1: don't you think, well? I yes, and no, um I 59 00:03:15,160 --> 00:03:17,239 Speaker 1: feel like there was obviously a steady push in that 60 00:03:17,400 --> 00:03:20,880 Speaker 1: direction over the last fifteen years or so. But my 61 00:03:21,040 --> 00:03:24,720 Speaker 1: I have some specific questions. So the first will be 62 00:03:24,760 --> 00:03:28,240 Speaker 1: young people. My sense from the young people who work 63 00:03:28,320 --> 00:03:32,040 Speaker 1: at my company and my memories of my own thinking 64 00:03:32,040 --> 00:03:34,320 Speaker 1: when I was in my twenties was that going to 65 00:03:34,400 --> 00:03:39,560 Speaker 1: the office was the single most exciting thing in my week. Right. 66 00:03:41,400 --> 00:03:44,840 Speaker 1: I wanted to meet, I was new, I wanted to learn. 67 00:03:45,080 --> 00:03:47,440 Speaker 1: When I was at the Washington Post, I was ten 68 00:03:47,520 --> 00:03:51,160 Speaker 1: ft from Bob Woodward, the greatest reporter of my generation, 69 00:03:51,240 --> 00:03:53,400 Speaker 1: was ten ft away. I knew nothing about reporting. He 70 00:03:53,480 --> 00:03:57,200 Speaker 1: knew everything. And I used to sit and watch him 71 00:03:57,400 --> 00:04:01,280 Speaker 1: and listen, and I learned so much from that. Next 72 00:04:01,280 --> 00:04:05,920 Speaker 1: to me was a guy named Michaelisakoff, another legendary investigate reporter. 73 00:04:06,240 --> 00:04:08,400 Speaker 1: He was next to me. I would sit and listen, 74 00:04:08,880 --> 00:04:11,240 Speaker 1: and I understood that the only way I would get 75 00:04:11,400 --> 00:04:14,920 Speaker 1: I would learn that way was to go to the office, right, 76 00:04:15,400 --> 00:04:16,960 Speaker 1: I mean, there was just no reason not to go 77 00:04:17,000 --> 00:04:19,160 Speaker 1: to the office. No, do I feel the same way now? 78 00:04:19,160 --> 00:04:22,640 Speaker 1: It kick me seven, No, I don't. But if you're 79 00:04:22,640 --> 00:04:26,000 Speaker 1: a company that employs young people, can you really hire 80 00:04:26,040 --> 00:04:28,640 Speaker 1: the best and brightest young people by saying we're going 81 00:04:28,720 --> 00:04:30,880 Speaker 1: to have you work out of your apartment or a 82 00:04:31,000 --> 00:04:37,880 Speaker 1: Starbucks seems nuts to me. No, I don't think you can. 83 00:04:38,000 --> 00:04:39,520 Speaker 1: But I also don't think you're gonna get the best 84 00:04:39,520 --> 00:04:41,479 Speaker 1: and brightest young people by saying you have to be 85 00:04:41,520 --> 00:04:43,640 Speaker 1: in the office every day and we're going to measure 86 00:04:44,080 --> 00:04:46,880 Speaker 1: not your results, not your contribution, but the amount of 87 00:04:46,920 --> 00:04:49,800 Speaker 1: FaceTime that you contribute. That seems ridiculous. And I hope 88 00:04:49,839 --> 00:04:52,920 Speaker 1: that that's one thing that the pandemic erased. I think 89 00:04:53,200 --> 00:04:55,160 Speaker 1: you know we I guess we have precedent for this 90 00:04:55,200 --> 00:04:59,000 Speaker 1: in some ways. So think about what Ricardo similar did 91 00:04:58,960 --> 00:05:02,159 Speaker 1: at Semco as an interesting example, right, originally in Brazil 92 00:05:02,279 --> 00:05:06,840 Speaker 1: now in Twentiesome countries, very traditional manufacturing company. They say 93 00:05:06,960 --> 00:05:09,320 Speaker 1: we will let you buy back one day a week 94 00:05:09,640 --> 00:05:12,200 Speaker 1: for ten percent of your salary. And they're thinking, this 95 00:05:12,240 --> 00:05:14,880 Speaker 1: is an early retirement move that will, you know, appeal 96 00:05:14,920 --> 00:05:16,680 Speaker 1: to the baby boomers who say, all right, I want 97 00:05:16,680 --> 00:05:18,919 Speaker 1: to enjoy a day a week of retirement before I 98 00:05:18,960 --> 00:05:22,320 Speaker 1: get really old. But no, it's most popular among their 99 00:05:22,360 --> 00:05:25,000 Speaker 1: youngest employees in their twenties and thirties, who want that 100 00:05:25,120 --> 00:05:27,040 Speaker 1: day of freedom. And I think this is gonna be 101 00:05:27,080 --> 00:05:29,839 Speaker 1: a competitive advantage for companies moving forward. Right, the organizations 102 00:05:29,839 --> 00:05:31,200 Speaker 1: that are willing to give you that little bit of 103 00:05:31,240 --> 00:05:34,320 Speaker 1: flexibility are going to do a much better job attracting, motivating, 104 00:05:34,320 --> 00:05:36,520 Speaker 1: and retaining people than the ones that say you have 105 00:05:36,600 --> 00:05:39,159 Speaker 1: to be here all the time. Well so, but there's 106 00:05:39,200 --> 00:05:43,480 Speaker 1: two things we're talking about here. One is workplace flexibility 107 00:05:43,960 --> 00:05:48,520 Speaker 1: and the other is dislocation, right, remote work, And they're 108 00:05:48,640 --> 00:05:51,680 Speaker 1: very they're quite separate. So I am quite in fact, 109 00:05:51,720 --> 00:05:54,760 Speaker 1: I practice flexibility, have been breaxting it for years and 110 00:05:54,800 --> 00:05:56,240 Speaker 1: years and years. I love the oppoe. I don't go 111 00:05:56,240 --> 00:05:58,479 Speaker 1: into the oppice every day, nor do I expect all 112 00:05:58,480 --> 00:06:00,880 Speaker 1: of our employees to come in every day at the 113 00:06:00,920 --> 00:06:04,159 Speaker 1: same time. For certain key events, like in my for 114 00:06:04,240 --> 00:06:07,080 Speaker 1: a podcast, The crucial moment in the creation of one 115 00:06:07,080 --> 00:06:10,040 Speaker 1: of my episodes of the Revisionist History is the table read, 116 00:06:10,640 --> 00:06:13,680 Speaker 1: where we reenact the podcast that we're working on. I 117 00:06:13,760 --> 00:06:16,159 Speaker 1: read the narration and we play the tape. I have 118 00:06:16,200 --> 00:06:19,640 Speaker 1: a team of six people and we've been doing those 119 00:06:19,640 --> 00:06:22,719 Speaker 1: on zoom and I'm sorry it doesn't work on zoom 120 00:06:22,760 --> 00:06:25,960 Speaker 1: And I actually said and to our staff, the minute 121 00:06:25,960 --> 00:06:28,520 Speaker 1: we're all vaccinated, we are meeting again in person. Because 122 00:06:29,080 --> 00:06:32,400 Speaker 1: this is creative work. It can't be done. I need 123 00:06:32,480 --> 00:06:35,640 Speaker 1: your feedback in the room. I doesn't work on Zoom, 124 00:06:35,640 --> 00:06:40,279 Speaker 1: so that you know that idea. I don't mind the flexibility. 125 00:06:40,360 --> 00:06:43,720 Speaker 1: But if someone said to me, I'm in Denver, Colorado, 126 00:06:43,800 --> 00:06:46,120 Speaker 1: and I'm your producer and I'm going to work from 127 00:06:46,160 --> 00:06:48,120 Speaker 1: Denver for now, and I say you can't work endever, 128 00:06:48,240 --> 00:06:50,720 Speaker 1: I'm sorry, you can't. You need to be unless you're 129 00:06:50,720 --> 00:06:53,320 Speaker 1: willing to fly in two days a week and then 130 00:06:53,440 --> 00:06:55,839 Speaker 1: fly back, fly into New York and fly back. It 131 00:06:55,839 --> 00:06:59,919 Speaker 1: doesn't work. Malcolm Gladwell, you are one of the smartest 132 00:07:00,080 --> 00:07:03,559 Speaker 1: and most creative people I know, and yet you can't 133 00:07:03,560 --> 00:07:06,200 Speaker 1: bring yourself to imagine doing a table read for a 134 00:07:06,200 --> 00:07:10,680 Speaker 1: product that's audio only without seeing people's faces, when you 135 00:07:10,680 --> 00:07:14,040 Speaker 1: yourself wrote in talking to Strangers that we overrate seeing 136 00:07:14,040 --> 00:07:19,360 Speaker 1: people's faces. No, no, no, I don't interesting interesting. Why 137 00:07:19,400 --> 00:07:21,160 Speaker 1: do I need them in the room when I'm doing 138 00:07:21,160 --> 00:07:23,040 Speaker 1: a table read? I need them in the room because 139 00:07:23,840 --> 00:07:27,760 Speaker 1: it's imperfect. So I'm creating a product for audio, but 140 00:07:27,800 --> 00:07:31,000 Speaker 1: I'm only in round one of what will be four rounds, 141 00:07:31,440 --> 00:07:33,760 Speaker 1: and I mean I'm handing in something that is very 142 00:07:33,840 --> 00:07:37,760 Speaker 1: much your work in progress. I need immediate, high quality 143 00:07:37,840 --> 00:07:42,560 Speaker 1: feedback B. I have found I also need my entire 144 00:07:42,640 --> 00:07:45,160 Speaker 1: team to pipe up. And I have found that people's 145 00:07:45,200 --> 00:07:48,400 Speaker 1: responses are inhibited online and that doesn't work for me. 146 00:07:48,800 --> 00:07:51,640 Speaker 1: I need everyone I want to say, I want to 147 00:07:51,920 --> 00:07:56,000 Speaker 1: I keep telling them that this, even dumb comments are useful, 148 00:07:56,600 --> 00:07:58,960 Speaker 1: and I feel, I feel maybe this is incorrect. I 149 00:07:59,000 --> 00:08:04,000 Speaker 1: feel that on Zoom people are editing themselves more and 150 00:08:04,760 --> 00:08:08,960 Speaker 1: even one when I'm doing a table read, one comment, 151 00:08:09,160 --> 00:08:12,640 Speaker 1: even a dumb comment, can be transformational in the final script, 152 00:08:13,200 --> 00:08:16,280 Speaker 1: so I can't afford closing their mouth when they should 153 00:08:16,280 --> 00:08:20,240 Speaker 1: open it. I accept the whole premise. I think all 154 00:08:20,280 --> 00:08:22,560 Speaker 1: of it makes sense, except the basic idea that you 155 00:08:22,600 --> 00:08:25,800 Speaker 1: can't create the psychological safety you're looking for, that freedom 156 00:08:25,800 --> 00:08:28,400 Speaker 1: to take risks and point out problems and that ideas fly. 157 00:08:29,040 --> 00:08:31,680 Speaker 1: That you can't create that in an online environment. So 158 00:08:31,800 --> 00:08:33,800 Speaker 1: let me throw out a couple examples of how I 159 00:08:33,800 --> 00:08:40,160 Speaker 1: think this works. First of all, adm Adam position healed myself. 160 00:08:40,760 --> 00:08:42,280 Speaker 1: Are you trying to tell me that you're gonna give 161 00:08:42,360 --> 00:08:44,280 Speaker 1: up on teaching in person now that you so in 162 00:08:44,360 --> 00:08:47,199 Speaker 1: love with online that Wharton is gonna go going to 163 00:08:47,280 --> 00:08:49,800 Speaker 1: turn into a digital platform. Is that what you're saying. 164 00:08:50,400 --> 00:08:53,280 Speaker 1: That's exactly where I was not going, but sort of going. 165 00:08:55,880 --> 00:08:57,200 Speaker 1: Let me say a couple of things here. The first 166 00:08:57,240 --> 00:08:59,720 Speaker 1: one is that I just came from a table read 167 00:09:00,040 --> 00:09:02,640 Speaker 1: a work life episode that we did over zoom, and 168 00:09:02,760 --> 00:09:05,240 Speaker 1: I got better feedback than we did when we did 169 00:09:05,240 --> 00:09:08,120 Speaker 1: these face to face, because we know that you you 170 00:09:08,160 --> 00:09:10,920 Speaker 1: know the science of brainstorming right in group brainstorming, and 171 00:09:10,960 --> 00:09:13,200 Speaker 1: this is true in group feedback too. You run into 172 00:09:13,240 --> 00:09:15,120 Speaker 1: production blocking where we can all talk it once and 173 00:09:15,160 --> 00:09:17,680 Speaker 1: you lose ideas. You run into ego threat where people 174 00:09:17,679 --> 00:09:19,800 Speaker 1: are worried they're gonna get judged and we lose ideas, 175 00:09:19,960 --> 00:09:23,040 Speaker 1: and you run in into conformity where the hippo that's you, 176 00:09:23,120 --> 00:09:25,640 Speaker 1: the highest paid person's opinion. As soon as that's known, 177 00:09:25,679 --> 00:09:28,679 Speaker 1: we all jump on the bandwagon. And we know that 178 00:09:28,720 --> 00:09:30,960 Speaker 1: if you can give people multiple channels for voicing their 179 00:09:30,960 --> 00:09:33,760 Speaker 1: independent ideas, they're better off. There is a chat window 180 00:09:33,800 --> 00:09:36,160 Speaker 1: and zoom. I don't know if you're tech savvy enough 181 00:09:36,240 --> 00:09:39,640 Speaker 1: to have discovered it yet, but I will tell you 182 00:09:39,679 --> 00:09:43,920 Speaker 1: that I have had both in teaching online and also 183 00:09:44,120 --> 00:09:47,120 Speaker 1: in the group table reads of my podcast and in 184 00:09:47,600 --> 00:09:49,839 Speaker 1: actually getting feedback from my students on the early drafts 185 00:09:49,840 --> 00:09:53,320 Speaker 1: of Think Again, I have had more honest and more 186 00:09:53,520 --> 00:09:55,920 Speaker 1: i would say, diverse comments than I've ever gotten before 187 00:09:55,960 --> 00:09:58,360 Speaker 1: because there are all these people who would not speak 188 00:09:58,400 --> 00:10:00,439 Speaker 1: up out loud, but we have this very the active 189 00:10:00,480 --> 00:10:03,360 Speaker 1: chat window going, and it allows me to get everybody's 190 00:10:03,400 --> 00:10:06,680 Speaker 1: participation in. So, no, I don't want to leave teaching 191 00:10:07,040 --> 00:10:10,640 Speaker 1: online only, but I would sure love, like I've been 192 00:10:10,640 --> 00:10:13,280 Speaker 1: able to do online, to call on someone who's gonna 193 00:10:13,320 --> 00:10:15,720 Speaker 1: bring up a relevant point or debate me on something, 194 00:10:15,920 --> 00:10:18,080 Speaker 1: as opposed to the random hand that happens to be 195 00:10:18,160 --> 00:10:21,280 Speaker 1: willing to speak, which is usually a white male extrovert 196 00:10:21,440 --> 00:10:23,400 Speaker 1: and least likely to be the person that I want 197 00:10:23,400 --> 00:10:31,600 Speaker 1: to learn from. Uh you know so, No, No, I'm not. 198 00:10:31,760 --> 00:10:34,840 Speaker 1: I'm saying you and I are probably an agreement in 199 00:10:34,880 --> 00:10:38,080 Speaker 1: the sense that I have that mode as well. So 200 00:10:39,240 --> 00:10:42,280 Speaker 1: as we go through the drafts of my episodes, we 201 00:10:42,440 --> 00:10:45,440 Speaker 1: move from an in person to an online thing and 202 00:10:45,520 --> 00:10:48,320 Speaker 1: people weigh in editor's way, and it's a it's a 203 00:10:48,320 --> 00:10:50,320 Speaker 1: Google dog. People can make all the comments they want 204 00:10:50,360 --> 00:10:53,520 Speaker 1: and they do, so I have that I'm just saying 205 00:10:53,520 --> 00:10:56,880 Speaker 1: there's a particular moment in the creative process where the 206 00:10:57,040 --> 00:11:00,640 Speaker 1: room and the energy in the room is important to 207 00:11:00,840 --> 00:11:05,600 Speaker 1: measure and to feed off. But wait before you leave that, 208 00:11:06,000 --> 00:11:07,600 Speaker 1: Before you leave that, I think, I think that's an 209 00:11:07,600 --> 00:11:11,040 Speaker 1: important distinction to make here. Um. I think, so you're 210 00:11:11,040 --> 00:11:13,760 Speaker 1: talking about what Anita Wolley would call it burstinus, right, 211 00:11:13,840 --> 00:11:16,360 Speaker 1: that sense that the room is literally bursting with energy 212 00:11:16,400 --> 00:11:19,560 Speaker 1: and ideas. And I don't know how to recreate that online. Right. 213 00:11:19,600 --> 00:11:21,439 Speaker 1: I feel like we're violating one of the laws of 214 00:11:21,480 --> 00:11:24,400 Speaker 1: thermodynamics every time I have a zoom session where I 215 00:11:24,440 --> 00:11:27,520 Speaker 1: put in a ton of energy unless comes back. And 216 00:11:27,559 --> 00:11:29,920 Speaker 1: I think that part is very hard to replicate in 217 00:11:29,960 --> 00:11:32,440 Speaker 1: the online environment. But I think sometimes the flow of 218 00:11:32,440 --> 00:11:37,000 Speaker 1: ideas is still worth it. Yeah. The second and more 219 00:11:37,080 --> 00:11:40,800 Speaker 1: important point, though, is about fun. So I have had, 220 00:11:41,240 --> 00:11:43,679 Speaker 1: You've had more conversations, but I've had, you know, a 221 00:11:43,720 --> 00:11:46,640 Speaker 1: lot of conversations with college kids over the last year, 222 00:11:47,200 --> 00:11:50,840 Speaker 1: and I have yet to find a single college kid 223 00:11:51,080 --> 00:11:53,880 Speaker 1: who found the last year more pleasurable than the year 224 00:11:53,920 --> 00:11:56,640 Speaker 1: before it? Right? Or high school kids? They all hate it? 225 00:11:57,000 --> 00:11:59,600 Speaker 1: Why do they hate it? Because it's not as fun now? 226 00:11:59,640 --> 00:12:03,600 Speaker 1: I just the same is true of employees. Sure, even 227 00:12:03,640 --> 00:12:06,960 Speaker 1: if you convinced me that Zoom was a more efficient 228 00:12:06,960 --> 00:12:11,880 Speaker 1: way to get feedback from my employees. You cannot convince 229 00:12:11,920 --> 00:12:15,880 Speaker 1: me that they're enjoying it more. And ultimately, if they're 230 00:12:15,880 --> 00:12:19,640 Speaker 1: not enjoying their jobs, we're doomed as a company. As 231 00:12:19,679 --> 00:12:22,720 Speaker 1: simple as that. The whole point, the founding principle of 232 00:12:22,800 --> 00:12:26,760 Speaker 1: Pushkin Industries, from the moment this company was I'm now 233 00:12:26,960 --> 00:12:28,360 Speaker 1: talking about my company that I started two and a 234 00:12:28,400 --> 00:12:30,920 Speaker 1: half years ago. Jacob and I when we sat down 235 00:12:30,920 --> 00:12:33,079 Speaker 1: to start the company, we were like, we're gonna make 236 00:12:33,080 --> 00:12:37,520 Speaker 1: cool things. Number two, We're going to have fun, right 237 00:12:37,920 --> 00:12:40,320 Speaker 1: and if everything is online, it's not fun. And as 238 00:12:40,360 --> 00:12:43,280 Speaker 1: far as I'm concerned, we've failed. I want to have fun. 239 00:12:43,480 --> 00:12:46,400 Speaker 1: Is that wrong? Why are you? Why are you standing 240 00:12:46,400 --> 00:12:49,680 Speaker 1: in the way of my enjoyment and my employees enjoyment. 241 00:12:51,040 --> 00:12:53,319 Speaker 1: I'm standing in the way of your enjoyment because you 242 00:12:53,360 --> 00:12:55,720 Speaker 1: would never be allowed to run a company. Can you? 243 00:12:55,800 --> 00:12:58,880 Speaker 1: Can you imagine Malcolm Gladwell, see, yeah, like you know what, 244 00:12:58,880 --> 00:13:01,240 Speaker 1: we're gonna make cool stuff. It almost as important as 245 00:13:01,280 --> 00:13:03,000 Speaker 1: we're going to have a lot of fun. That would 246 00:13:03,040 --> 00:13:06,000 Speaker 1: never work. Well Street would laugh you out of your 247 00:13:06,040 --> 00:13:08,800 Speaker 1: job in a day. Wait, wait wait, wait, wait, wait, 248 00:13:08,800 --> 00:13:12,760 Speaker 1: hold on, hold on, Adam, in the course, don't count 249 00:13:12,760 --> 00:13:16,880 Speaker 1: pandemic here in how many years have you been teaching teaching? 250 00:13:17,040 --> 00:13:20,280 Speaker 1: I don't know, fifteen maybe, Okay. Do you have fun 251 00:13:20,320 --> 00:13:24,720 Speaker 1: doing it? Of course that's part of the fun. Hold on, 252 00:13:24,720 --> 00:13:28,439 Speaker 1: hold on, hold on. If you didn't have fun doing it, 253 00:13:29,120 --> 00:13:34,000 Speaker 1: would you have left your job as professor by this point? No, 254 00:13:34,120 --> 00:13:36,480 Speaker 1: because I think it's meaningful and I'd rather bet on 255 00:13:36,559 --> 00:13:39,320 Speaker 1: purpose than pleasure. You would have gritted it out for 256 00:13:39,400 --> 00:13:43,720 Speaker 1: fifteen years, even though it's like every morning like, oh 257 00:13:43,720 --> 00:13:45,440 Speaker 1: do I have to do this again? And you would 258 00:13:45,440 --> 00:13:48,520 Speaker 1: have like looked at your wife and she said, Adam, 259 00:13:48,559 --> 00:13:51,840 Speaker 1: there's no way around it. Just grab your hard hat 260 00:13:51,880 --> 00:13:54,680 Speaker 1: and go off to the salt mines. Please, I'm not 261 00:13:54,760 --> 00:13:56,840 Speaker 1: buying it. You would have got because a million other 262 00:13:56,920 --> 00:13:58,720 Speaker 1: things you could have done that that could have made 263 00:13:58,720 --> 00:14:00,200 Speaker 1: you a good living, that you could have found fun. 264 00:14:00,200 --> 00:14:03,959 Speaker 1: You would not have stayed a professor. It wasn't fun. Okay. 265 00:14:03,960 --> 00:14:06,319 Speaker 1: Maybe it depends on how you define fun. So I'm 266 00:14:06,320 --> 00:14:08,840 Speaker 1: thinking now of Dan Coyle's distinction between deep fun and 267 00:14:08,840 --> 00:14:11,320 Speaker 1: shallow fund, and when you stay fun, I'm thinking about 268 00:14:11,320 --> 00:14:13,280 Speaker 1: shallow fund, which is you know, we're going to go 269 00:14:13,320 --> 00:14:15,839 Speaker 1: and party and we're basically going to revert to our 270 00:14:15,880 --> 00:14:18,440 Speaker 1: college selves. That is not my idea of fun. My 271 00:14:18,480 --> 00:14:20,920 Speaker 1: idea of fund is deep fund, which is we're working 272 00:14:20,960 --> 00:14:25,080 Speaker 1: on hard, interesting problems. Sometimes we laugh, sometimes we're you know, 273 00:14:25,080 --> 00:14:27,080 Speaker 1: we're really puzzled and confused, and we're trying to get 274 00:14:27,080 --> 00:14:29,480 Speaker 1: to the bottom of an important question. And I think 275 00:14:29,480 --> 00:14:31,080 Speaker 1: you can have that kind of deep fund in a 276 00:14:31,160 --> 00:14:33,520 Speaker 1: virtual world. In fact, it's the same kind of deep 277 00:14:33,560 --> 00:14:35,320 Speaker 1: fund that I have when I'm writing books, and I 278 00:14:35,360 --> 00:14:37,680 Speaker 1: think you have it too. Isn't that fun? Are you 279 00:14:37,720 --> 00:14:39,880 Speaker 1: saying that the time you spend sitting in front of 280 00:14:39,880 --> 00:14:42,960 Speaker 1: your computer writing New Yorker articles and best selling books 281 00:14:43,280 --> 00:14:48,880 Speaker 1: is not fun? It is. It is fun, but there's 282 00:14:48,920 --> 00:14:54,240 Speaker 1: a lot. So let me tell you about a conversation 283 00:14:54,240 --> 00:14:56,040 Speaker 1: I had this weekend with an old college friend of 284 00:14:56,040 --> 00:15:00,400 Speaker 1: mine who's now uh he's a senior this trade or 285 00:15:00,480 --> 00:15:04,640 Speaker 1: a big hospital system, very large hospital system, and he 286 00:15:05,320 --> 00:15:07,480 Speaker 1: was talking about what the last year has been like 287 00:15:08,080 --> 00:15:10,680 Speaker 1: and also every time I've seen him, but over the 288 00:15:10,720 --> 00:15:14,400 Speaker 1: last five years he has registered a long complaint about 289 00:15:14,400 --> 00:15:19,240 Speaker 1: electronic medical records, which are part of this conversation, right 290 00:15:19,520 --> 00:15:22,040 Speaker 1: so as his rule has gotten more digital. He will 291 00:15:22,040 --> 00:15:24,880 Speaker 1: tell you he's now in charge of he's the chief 292 00:15:24,920 --> 00:15:27,800 Speaker 1: well being officer for his hospital system, and they have 293 00:15:27,840 --> 00:15:31,320 Speaker 1: a serious problem with morale in their ranks. He will 294 00:15:31,360 --> 00:15:33,440 Speaker 1: be the first to tell you this. Why do they 295 00:15:33,440 --> 00:15:37,480 Speaker 1: have a serious problem with him? Among other reasons, because 296 00:15:38,160 --> 00:15:41,760 Speaker 1: the people entered the profession to do something and have 297 00:15:41,800 --> 00:15:45,120 Speaker 1: an experience that they're not having anymore. My friend can 298 00:15:45,400 --> 00:15:48,520 Speaker 1: decontrack when people are online late at night doing their 299 00:15:49,320 --> 00:15:52,360 Speaker 1: electronic medical record and they're they're logging on eleven at 300 00:15:52,480 --> 00:15:55,760 Speaker 1: night two and it's just not He's like, that's the 301 00:15:55,840 --> 00:15:58,400 Speaker 1: death of I'm not gonna be able to retain those people. 302 00:15:58,400 --> 00:16:00,440 Speaker 1: They're not going to do good work. They're gonna turn out. 303 00:16:00,920 --> 00:16:04,920 Speaker 1: That's the daily reality of his job, is that they're 304 00:16:04,960 --> 00:16:07,160 Speaker 1: trying to do something very important in society, and the 305 00:16:07,200 --> 00:16:10,800 Speaker 1: people who are charged with doing that are not enjoying themselves. 306 00:16:11,320 --> 00:16:14,320 Speaker 1: What do they enjoy? They enjoy sitting down and getting 307 00:16:14,320 --> 00:16:18,120 Speaker 1: to know a patient. That's why they became doctors, right, 308 00:16:18,800 --> 00:16:21,360 Speaker 1: and so this last year when everything's been done really 309 00:16:21,440 --> 00:16:26,320 Speaker 1: has been hell. Correctly, that's not why they became physicians. 310 00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:29,240 Speaker 1: So like, they're not gonna want to do we want 311 00:16:29,240 --> 00:16:31,600 Speaker 1: to continue this for them. No, there'll be no one 312 00:16:31,680 --> 00:16:35,000 Speaker 1: left in the hospitals to cure patients, give them their 313 00:16:35,040 --> 00:16:38,240 Speaker 1: patients back, because that's the deep fund is gone when 314 00:16:38,240 --> 00:16:40,560 Speaker 1: they're on computers all their love. Yeah, I think we're 315 00:16:40,560 --> 00:16:43,880 Speaker 1: in strong alignment there. I definitely do not want to 316 00:16:43,920 --> 00:16:46,040 Speaker 1: take somebody who got into a profession to help people 317 00:16:46,080 --> 00:16:48,960 Speaker 1: and say you're going to spend of your time entering 318 00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:52,320 Speaker 1: information and electronic medical records. But I think that's the 319 00:16:52,400 --> 00:16:56,080 Speaker 1: presence of an unpleasant, pleasant task, right, not anything inherent 320 00:16:56,200 --> 00:17:00,200 Speaker 1: to working electronically or virtually. Um. I think there. I've 321 00:17:00,240 --> 00:17:02,240 Speaker 1: met surgeons over the past year who said, you know what, 322 00:17:02,360 --> 00:17:04,640 Speaker 1: going remote has been the best thing I've been able 323 00:17:04,640 --> 00:17:06,720 Speaker 1: to do because I can spread my expertise around the 324 00:17:06,720 --> 00:17:08,760 Speaker 1: world more efficiently. I don't have to travel to go 325 00:17:08,840 --> 00:17:12,040 Speaker 1: and do a grand rounds. I can reach patients who 326 00:17:12,280 --> 00:17:14,560 Speaker 1: you know, otherwise wouldn't be able to benefit from my care. 327 00:17:14,800 --> 00:17:17,760 Speaker 1: And that's been a really meaningful changed my job. And 328 00:17:17,800 --> 00:17:19,119 Speaker 1: so what I want to do is I want to 329 00:17:19,160 --> 00:17:21,439 Speaker 1: I want to keep that connectivity and meaning, and I 330 00:17:21,440 --> 00:17:23,400 Speaker 1: want to subtract out some of the things that are 331 00:17:23,480 --> 00:17:25,760 Speaker 1: clearly a source of burnout and a chore for too 332 00:17:25,800 --> 00:17:29,160 Speaker 1: many people in too many jobs. So look, wait, let's 333 00:17:29,200 --> 00:17:32,399 Speaker 1: let's talk about your job for a moment. We alluded 334 00:17:32,400 --> 00:17:36,320 Speaker 1: to it earlier. But so you're at a school which 335 00:17:36,400 --> 00:17:38,879 Speaker 1: is very selected and which charges a lot of money 336 00:17:39,680 --> 00:17:42,720 Speaker 1: right for presumably because of an expectation of a certain 337 00:17:42,800 --> 00:17:46,199 Speaker 1: kind of experience. So what do you do? What do 338 00:17:46,240 --> 00:17:48,520 Speaker 1: you guys do next year? In the year after, do 339 00:17:49,040 --> 00:17:50,919 Speaker 1: you do you cut your tuition and a half and 340 00:17:51,000 --> 00:17:54,840 Speaker 1: go zoom classes or what are you gonna do? I 341 00:17:54,920 --> 00:17:57,119 Speaker 1: don't know yet. I think it's an open question. I 342 00:17:57,160 --> 00:17:59,280 Speaker 1: think the first thing we should be doing is running experiments, 343 00:17:59,320 --> 00:18:03,399 Speaker 1: which you know, look, I'm obviously, like everyone else, devastated 344 00:18:03,400 --> 00:18:06,200 Speaker 1: by the pandemic, but given that we're stuck with it, 345 00:18:06,200 --> 00:18:07,840 Speaker 1: it has been a good excuse for us to do 346 00:18:07,880 --> 00:18:10,760 Speaker 1: a lot of rethinking and experimentation. So I mentioned the 347 00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:13,719 Speaker 1: chat window earlier. When I started teaching online, some colleagues 348 00:18:13,720 --> 00:18:15,919 Speaker 1: and I said, all right, we're gonna use hashtags, and 349 00:18:15,960 --> 00:18:17,959 Speaker 1: we had students put in hashtag question if they had 350 00:18:17,960 --> 00:18:21,080 Speaker 1: a question, hashtag on fire if they had a burning 351 00:18:21,160 --> 00:18:23,600 Speaker 1: question or comment. And that means if I see on fire, 352 00:18:23,640 --> 00:18:26,320 Speaker 1: I will literally stop in mid sentence, floor is yours? 353 00:18:26,359 --> 00:18:28,800 Speaker 1: And that way you know you can jump the line um. 354 00:18:28,880 --> 00:18:31,520 Speaker 1: We had had then added hashtag a ha if you 355 00:18:31,560 --> 00:18:33,720 Speaker 1: had a Eureka moment, which helped me track what people 356 00:18:33,760 --> 00:18:36,119 Speaker 1: were learning. And sometimes I realized I hadn't got my 357 00:18:36,119 --> 00:18:39,920 Speaker 1: point across. Other times I saw that I clearly made 358 00:18:39,960 --> 00:18:41,520 Speaker 1: a point that I didn't even realize that would making 359 00:18:41,680 --> 00:18:44,240 Speaker 1: was making. And then in some cases too, it was 360 00:18:44,359 --> 00:18:46,320 Speaker 1: kind of a guide for students to track the learning 361 00:18:46,359 --> 00:18:48,639 Speaker 1: that was happening as it went. My favorite thing that 362 00:18:48,760 --> 00:18:51,840 Speaker 1: was hashtag debate, where if somebody wanted to disagree with 363 00:18:51,880 --> 00:18:53,840 Speaker 1: me or one of their classmates, I could get them 364 00:18:53,840 --> 00:18:56,360 Speaker 1: into the conversation UM. And I think that it's such 365 00:18:56,359 --> 00:18:58,200 Speaker 1: a small innovation, right, but I don't want to lose 366 00:18:58,240 --> 00:18:59,960 Speaker 1: that when I go back into the classroom. I want 367 00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:01,640 Speaker 1: to keep that dialogue going. I don't know what that's 368 00:19:01,640 --> 00:19:03,960 Speaker 1: gonna look like yet, but I wanted to happen. And 369 00:19:04,000 --> 00:19:05,720 Speaker 1: then the other thing that that really opened up that 370 00:19:05,760 --> 00:19:07,600 Speaker 1: I've never been able to do before is we brought 371 00:19:07,640 --> 00:19:10,040 Speaker 1: guest speakers from all over the world. Instead of just 372 00:19:10,200 --> 00:19:12,439 Speaker 1: asking the people who live in or near Philly, I 373 00:19:12,520 --> 00:19:14,919 Speaker 1: was able to go to people in multiple countries, on 374 00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:18,320 Speaker 1: multiple continents, um in lots of interesting places, and say, hey, 375 00:19:18,320 --> 00:19:20,199 Speaker 1: would you come to class for half an hour? I 376 00:19:20,240 --> 00:19:23,400 Speaker 1: think I might go guest speakers fully and permanently remote now, 377 00:19:23,960 --> 00:19:25,600 Speaker 1: because it means we can all go on zoom and 378 00:19:25,640 --> 00:19:28,240 Speaker 1: we can have an awesome conversation with somebody who would 379 00:19:28,280 --> 00:19:30,960 Speaker 1: never show up in my class. So I want to 380 00:19:30,960 --> 00:19:33,000 Speaker 1: see us do more of those kinds of experiments. But 381 00:19:33,040 --> 00:19:35,520 Speaker 1: I don't want to give up on the burstinus or 382 00:19:35,600 --> 00:19:41,360 Speaker 1: the connection that happens in the physical classroom. Is that fair? Yeah? 383 00:19:41,400 --> 00:19:44,120 Speaker 1: I did it, It's fair. I would a couple of 384 00:19:44,880 --> 00:19:49,840 Speaker 1: caveats here, which is that, Um? I wonder whether there 385 00:19:49,920 --> 00:19:54,160 Speaker 1: isn't a great deal of nuance and variability in different 386 00:19:54,200 --> 00:19:59,920 Speaker 1: audiences responses to digital environments. So I need an as 387 00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:02,800 Speaker 1: to a question. Suppose I have a room full of 388 00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:08,920 Speaker 1: kids in a economically disadvantaged neighborhood there in fourth grade. Um, 389 00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:11,400 Speaker 1: how much what is the right what is the right 390 00:20:11,520 --> 00:20:15,399 Speaker 1: mix of online and in person for that group versus 391 00:20:16,640 --> 00:20:20,600 Speaker 1: your students are not only are they much older, but 392 00:20:20,680 --> 00:20:22,960 Speaker 1: they are you know, the best in the broadest, So 393 00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:25,159 Speaker 1: the cream of the crop is it? Does that make 394 00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:28,800 Speaker 1: a difference. Are they are is a more mature and 395 00:20:28,880 --> 00:20:34,200 Speaker 1: disciplined and um intellectually engaged group of students better suited 396 00:20:34,280 --> 00:20:39,320 Speaker 1: for online experiences than kids? You know, I think both 397 00:20:39,359 --> 00:20:42,040 Speaker 1: of us have suspicions about the answer that question. But 398 00:20:42,119 --> 00:20:45,359 Speaker 1: I wonder whether we need to get a lot more 399 00:20:45,520 --> 00:20:49,800 Speaker 1: nuanced in what mixes worth work best for what kinds 400 00:20:49,800 --> 00:20:53,360 Speaker 1: of students and what kinds of situations. Yeah, I think 401 00:20:53,359 --> 00:20:55,400 Speaker 1: that's such an important point. I haven't seen good data 402 00:20:55,440 --> 00:20:58,040 Speaker 1: on it yet, but I had the same intuition that 403 00:20:58,920 --> 00:21:02,960 Speaker 1: tech savvy and also some degree of intrinsic motivation is 404 00:21:03,000 --> 00:21:06,320 Speaker 1: a huge set of contingencies for determining whether online is 405 00:21:06,359 --> 00:21:09,720 Speaker 1: going to be even remotely engaging no pun intended. I 406 00:21:09,760 --> 00:21:11,680 Speaker 1: also think the type of work and the type of 407 00:21:11,760 --> 00:21:14,359 Speaker 1: learning we're doing really matters. So in general, I hate 408 00:21:14,359 --> 00:21:17,000 Speaker 1: sports metaphors when applied to work, but I'm gonna use 409 00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:20,000 Speaker 1: one here. Normally, I think, Okay, we haven't agreed on 410 00:21:20,040 --> 00:21:22,360 Speaker 1: how to keep score, we haven't agreed on all the rules, 411 00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:24,680 Speaker 1: and we don't have a referee. We're also leaving out 412 00:21:24,720 --> 00:21:27,400 Speaker 1: maybe half the population. But this is a rare exception 413 00:21:27,920 --> 00:21:31,080 Speaker 1: where when we study independence and organizational psychology, we distinguished 414 00:21:31,080 --> 00:21:34,399 Speaker 1: between pooled, sequential and reciprocal independence. Say that five times fast. 415 00:21:34,960 --> 00:21:37,760 Speaker 1: I prefer to think about them as individual sport, relay sport, 416 00:21:37,880 --> 00:21:41,040 Speaker 1: and team sport. So if your job or your classroom 417 00:21:41,080 --> 00:21:43,960 Speaker 1: is basically an individual sport like gymnastics, where everyone's gonna 418 00:21:43,960 --> 00:21:45,960 Speaker 1: do their own floor routine and their own bar and 419 00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:48,879 Speaker 1: their own vault um, you don't need that much coordination. 420 00:21:48,960 --> 00:21:51,400 Speaker 1: You can do a lot of independent, individualized remote work 421 00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:53,600 Speaker 1: and learning because the whole will basically be the sum 422 00:21:53,600 --> 00:21:56,000 Speaker 1: of the parts. If you're in a relay sport, though, 423 00:21:56,040 --> 00:21:58,200 Speaker 1: the person who's handing the bason to the next runner 424 00:21:58,640 --> 00:22:00,479 Speaker 1: needs to actually talk to that on her and then 425 00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:02,480 Speaker 1: also the person at the start needs to talk with 426 00:22:02,520 --> 00:22:04,119 Speaker 1: the person that finish to make sure they're going in 427 00:22:04,119 --> 00:22:07,119 Speaker 1: the same destination or the same direction. I think the 428 00:22:07,160 --> 00:22:11,560 Speaker 1: most important context for really getting real synchronization of time 429 00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:13,840 Speaker 1: and space is probably when we're playing a true team 430 00:22:13,840 --> 00:22:16,160 Speaker 1: sport like basketball or soccer. Right, if I'm gonna pass 431 00:22:16,200 --> 00:22:17,399 Speaker 1: you the ball, and then you're gonna send it back 432 00:22:17,440 --> 00:22:18,680 Speaker 1: to me, and then I'm gonna send to someone else, 433 00:22:18,680 --> 00:22:20,680 Speaker 1: and then it goes back to you again, and everybody 434 00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:23,040 Speaker 1: has multiple pairs of eyes and multiple touches on the 435 00:22:23,040 --> 00:22:26,600 Speaker 1: project or the lesson. That's when it's it becomes really 436 00:22:26,600 --> 00:22:30,160 Speaker 1: difficult to substitute for the face to face, in person experience. 437 00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:32,320 Speaker 1: And I don't think we've had enough of these conversations 438 00:22:32,359 --> 00:22:35,000 Speaker 1: in our organizations or in our schools asking what are 439 00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:37,200 Speaker 1: we doing right now? Are we playing individual sport, relay 440 00:22:37,240 --> 00:22:42,760 Speaker 1: sport or team sport? Yeah? Yeah, no, absolutely, um Adam. 441 00:22:42,880 --> 00:22:49,280 Speaker 1: As always, this was delightful. UM. I'm still slightly baffled 442 00:22:49,280 --> 00:22:51,240 Speaker 1: that we seem to have so little to disagree about, 443 00:22:51,680 --> 00:22:55,120 Speaker 1: but yeah, there's always hope for next time. Next time, 444 00:22:55,160 --> 00:22:58,400 Speaker 1: I hope with both of us, are you know, bloodied 445 00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:00,520 Speaker 1: and torn by the end of our encount her, But 446 00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:03,800 Speaker 1: in this case, this is not the case. So but 447 00:23:03,920 --> 00:23:07,399 Speaker 1: thank you very much for joining us, uh, and thank 448 00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:12,520 Speaker 1: you UM to IBM for for bringing bringing us together 449 00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:16,360 Speaker 1: and sponsoring this lovely conversation. Thank you thrilled to be here, 450 00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:22,320 Speaker 1: this is great fun. Thanks for having me, Thanks again 451 00:23:22,359 --> 00:23:24,359 Speaker 1: to Adam for having a great chat with me about 452 00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:29,080 Speaker 1: the ever present cubicle versus couch debate, and thanks to 453 00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:34,480 Speaker 1: IBM for setting up such an informative conference Smart Talks 454 00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:38,199 Speaker 1: with IBM is produced by Emily Rostag with Carly Migliori, 455 00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:43,560 Speaker 1: edited by Karen Shaker, g engineering by Martin Gonzalez, mixed 456 00:23:43,560 --> 00:23:49,160 Speaker 1: and mastered by Jason Gambrell and Ben Toliday. Music by Grandmascope. 457 00:23:50,040 --> 00:23:53,640 Speaker 1: Special thanks to Molly Sosha, Andy Kelly, Nea La Belle, 458 00:23:53,720 --> 00:23:57,359 Speaker 1: Jacob Weisberg, Head of Fane, Eric Sandler, and Meggie Taylor, 459 00:23:57,800 --> 00:24:01,520 Speaker 1: and the teams at eight Bar and b M. Smart 460 00:24:01,560 --> 00:24:04,919 Speaker 1: Talks with IBM is a production of Pushkin Industries and 461 00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:08,840 Speaker 1: I Heart Media. You can find more Pushkin podcasts on 462 00:24:08,920 --> 00:24:12,320 Speaker 1: the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you 463 00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:16,280 Speaker 1: like to listen. I'm Malcolm Gladwell, See you next time.