1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:04,080 Speaker 1: February two thousand four, Maura Murray empties her bank account, 2 00:00:04,320 --> 00:00:08,119 Speaker 1: drives four hours from school, crashes, her car, gets out 3 00:00:08,360 --> 00:00:12,600 Speaker 1: and vanishes. Everybody has the theory. Was she murdered? Was 4 00:00:12,640 --> 00:00:15,600 Speaker 1: it a suicide? Did you run away? Join the search 5 00:00:15,680 --> 00:00:20,040 Speaker 1: as an investigative reporter and former US Marshall uncovered new evidence, 6 00:00:20,239 --> 00:00:24,400 Speaker 1: interrogate new witnesses, trace down new leeds, and this riveting 7 00:00:24,480 --> 00:00:29,440 Speaker 1: new investigative series, The Disappearance of Maura Murray and starts Saturday, 8 00:00:29,440 --> 00:00:35,440 Speaker 1: September eight, fift pm, seven fifteen Central on Oxygen, the 9 00:00:35,520 --> 00:00:44,280 Speaker 1: new network for crime, Crime Stories with Nancy Grace on 10 00:00:44,360 --> 00:00:49,360 Speaker 1: Sirius XM Triumph Channel one thirty two, two thousand five, 11 00:00:49,400 --> 00:00:51,800 Speaker 1: On the Small Island of a Rubot, Natalie Hollowayd was 12 00:00:51,840 --> 00:00:53,960 Speaker 1: with friends at a local bar where she was last 13 00:00:53,960 --> 00:00:58,160 Speaker 1: seen getting a ride with Uron Vandersloughte. Natalie's disappearance remains 14 00:00:58,200 --> 00:01:00,720 Speaker 1: a mystery. Her dad says that he in a private 15 00:01:00,760 --> 00:01:04,160 Speaker 1: eye found human and remains in We took them remains 16 00:01:04,319 --> 00:01:06,600 Speaker 1: and had them remains test it and then just returned 17 00:01:06,680 --> 00:01:09,000 Speaker 1: last week. That's her human remains. Will they be able 18 00:01:09,040 --> 00:01:10,840 Speaker 1: to be some kind of test ave? That will be 19 00:01:10,880 --> 00:01:13,039 Speaker 1: answer once and for all, whether this is Natalie. We're 20 00:01:13,080 --> 00:01:15,679 Speaker 1: in the process of doing a DNA test. Dave Holloway 21 00:01:15,720 --> 00:01:17,920 Speaker 1: says that a friend of a man who was once 22 00:01:18,000 --> 00:01:20,679 Speaker 1: suspected in her disappearance tipped them off. I know that 23 00:01:20,720 --> 00:01:24,000 Speaker 1: there's a possibility this could be someone else, and I'm 24 00:01:24,040 --> 00:01:30,000 Speaker 1: just trying to wait and see the story of Alabama teen, 25 00:01:30,800 --> 00:01:34,920 Speaker 1: the high school beauty and honor student who already has 26 00:01:35,040 --> 00:01:39,720 Speaker 1: a scholarship to college goes on and it seems as 27 00:01:39,760 --> 00:01:44,399 Speaker 1: if with every twist and turn, the news gets worse 28 00:01:44,640 --> 00:01:48,840 Speaker 1: about the missing girl. I cannot even imagine her parents 29 00:01:48,880 --> 00:01:52,400 Speaker 1: just before she graduates high school. They're in the Mountain 30 00:01:52,400 --> 00:01:56,560 Speaker 1: Brook area of Alabama. She goes on her high school 31 00:01:56,600 --> 00:02:03,840 Speaker 1: senior trip. They never see her alive again. Thanks too 32 00:02:03,880 --> 00:02:08,920 Speaker 1: in my mind and a Reuben Judge's son your Vander salute. 33 00:02:09,120 --> 00:02:11,520 Speaker 1: I Meancy Grace, this is crime Stories. Thank you for 34 00:02:11,560 --> 00:02:16,760 Speaker 1: being with us. The very latest wrinkle is almost too 35 00:02:16,840 --> 00:02:21,720 Speaker 1: much to believe. And with me is investigative reporter multiple 36 00:02:22,280 --> 00:02:27,959 Speaker 1: winner of Emmy Awards, Art Harris, along with forensic expert 37 00:02:28,080 --> 00:02:32,680 Speaker 1: and professor of forensics at Jacksonville State University Joe Scott Morgan. 38 00:02:33,080 --> 00:02:37,000 Speaker 1: Art Harris, the latest is almost more than I can 39 00:02:37,120 --> 00:02:41,320 Speaker 1: even repeat. Tell me what's happening now, aren't Harris? Nancy 40 00:02:41,560 --> 00:02:47,240 Speaker 1: the best friend of your vandor slut takes his sources 41 00:02:47,280 --> 00:02:52,000 Speaker 1: to a place where he says Natalie's skull and bones 42 00:02:52,360 --> 00:02:57,440 Speaker 1: were crushed and burned to get rid of her hair fibers, 43 00:02:57,800 --> 00:03:00,600 Speaker 1: doused with gasoline and a fire pit in a cave, 44 00:03:01,040 --> 00:03:05,600 Speaker 1: and then after that they pounded the bones to reduce 45 00:03:05,720 --> 00:03:09,440 Speaker 1: them to disposable remains. It's almost more than I can 46 00:03:09,480 --> 00:03:14,160 Speaker 1: take in with me. Joe Scott Morgan forensics expert, allegations 47 00:03:14,240 --> 00:03:19,120 Speaker 1: at the skull of this beautiful girl. Her skull, the 48 00:03:19,200 --> 00:03:25,440 Speaker 1: girl who disappeared offer high school senior trip was burned 49 00:03:25,880 --> 00:03:30,040 Speaker 1: in a cave in a Ruba. After you're in vander 50 00:03:30,120 --> 00:03:35,200 Speaker 1: Salute pays the friend to dig up her remains for 51 00:03:35,320 --> 00:03:39,040 Speaker 1: fift hundred dollars. They then go to a cave in 52 00:03:39,120 --> 00:03:45,280 Speaker 1: a Ruba and pound her remains, her bones into dust 53 00:03:45,760 --> 00:03:48,560 Speaker 1: and try to burn it. Joe Scott, is that possible 54 00:03:49,280 --> 00:03:52,560 Speaker 1: to a certain degree? Is it is? Nancy? Thing about 55 00:03:52,560 --> 00:03:57,080 Speaker 1: burning bone is that? Uh, It's very difficult to burn. 56 00:03:57,240 --> 00:03:59,120 Speaker 1: You have to have intense heat and you have to 57 00:03:59,120 --> 00:04:01,720 Speaker 1: burn for a portray acted period. One of the things 58 00:04:01,800 --> 00:04:05,320 Speaker 1: they're not taking into account here is what element is 59 00:04:05,360 --> 00:04:08,840 Speaker 1: contained within the skull that are not bone and that 60 00:04:08,960 --> 00:04:13,160 Speaker 1: are that that's human teeth and so um. From an 61 00:04:13,200 --> 00:04:17,080 Speaker 1: evidentry standpoint for us in forensic science, the teeth are 62 00:04:17,120 --> 00:04:19,719 Speaker 1: going to be much more valuable than the skull itself. 63 00:04:19,839 --> 00:04:23,160 Speaker 1: So you're saying that teeth do not burn. They do burn, Nancy, 64 00:04:23,240 --> 00:04:27,599 Speaker 1: but the uh, the amount of heat that it requires 65 00:04:28,120 --> 00:04:31,440 Speaker 1: is almost increased by a factor of two when compared 66 00:04:31,480 --> 00:04:36,920 Speaker 1: to bone. Okay, Um, bone is very fragile compared to teeth. 67 00:04:37,000 --> 00:04:41,480 Speaker 1: So if they can recover teeth in this alleged area 68 00:04:41,560 --> 00:04:45,200 Speaker 1: where this occurred, that's going to be Um, it'll be 69 00:04:45,240 --> 00:04:48,120 Speaker 1: a monumental piece of ovidends here. Well, they were crushing, 70 00:04:48,400 --> 00:04:54,560 Speaker 1: I mean, beating, pounding on decimating her bones. I would 71 00:04:54,600 --> 00:04:56,880 Speaker 1: be surprised if they didn't destroy her teeth too. But 72 00:04:56,960 --> 00:05:00,120 Speaker 1: I think you're right from an anecdotal point of you, 73 00:05:00,480 --> 00:05:04,479 Speaker 1: Joseph Scott more gonna because when I first started covering 74 00:05:04,600 --> 00:05:10,680 Speaker 1: the Stephen Avery case with Teresa Halbach, the photographer, and 75 00:05:10,800 --> 00:05:14,640 Speaker 1: this you know, became famous, not when I covered it 76 00:05:14,640 --> 00:05:17,960 Speaker 1: as a missing person and then a homicide investigation. But 77 00:05:18,279 --> 00:05:22,000 Speaker 1: when was it Netflix or HBO didn't making a murder? Oh, 78 00:05:22,200 --> 00:05:26,960 Speaker 1: Jackie say Netflix did making a murderer. Um, it became famous. 79 00:05:27,000 --> 00:05:33,160 Speaker 1: Then he Stephen Avery sat outside and stirred a fire 80 00:05:33,200 --> 00:05:38,560 Speaker 1: pit himself all through the night. We now know burning 81 00:05:38,760 --> 00:05:43,679 Speaker 1: Teresa Hallback's remains and what cops could find Joe Scott 82 00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:48,160 Speaker 1: were bits of her bones, her teeth, and the studs 83 00:05:48,160 --> 00:05:51,240 Speaker 1: off the back of her Daisy fointest blue jeans, So 84 00:05:51,360 --> 00:05:55,640 Speaker 1: her teeth survived. I guess you'd have to have a 85 00:05:55,680 --> 00:06:02,440 Speaker 1: crematory grade heat in order to to burn teeth. Yeah, yeah, 86 00:06:02,440 --> 00:06:06,520 Speaker 1: we we We'd be looking at at a sustained heat 87 00:06:06,600 --> 00:06:11,960 Speaker 1: level of in excess of about degrees fare and height. 88 00:06:12,040 --> 00:06:14,359 Speaker 1: And that's got to be sustained and so it takes 89 00:06:14,960 --> 00:06:17,719 Speaker 1: um you know, even not to get too graphic, but 90 00:06:17,760 --> 00:06:21,719 Speaker 1: when you think about ceremonial cre cremations that take place 91 00:06:22,000 --> 00:06:24,839 Speaker 1: in certain cultures, Uh, they have to have people that 92 00:06:24,960 --> 00:06:28,680 Speaker 1: tend these fires for days and days on end. Now, 93 00:06:28,720 --> 00:06:32,000 Speaker 1: if you have access to a crematory, which very very 94 00:06:32,040 --> 00:06:36,160 Speaker 1: few people do, um, it would it would facilitate this 95 00:06:36,240 --> 00:06:40,200 Speaker 1: a lot quicker. And uh, the the level of heat 96 00:06:40,320 --> 00:06:44,160 Speaker 1: is very intense, intense and this very contained area. This 97 00:06:44,240 --> 00:06:46,080 Speaker 1: is not what we're talking about. We're talking about going 98 00:06:46,120 --> 00:06:48,600 Speaker 1: into a hole in the ground that was big enough 99 00:06:48,640 --> 00:06:50,920 Speaker 1: for a couple of people to fit in. And then 100 00:06:50,960 --> 00:06:52,640 Speaker 1: they have to have a fuel source. They have to 101 00:06:52,680 --> 00:06:54,880 Speaker 1: have It's not just gash, you know, they're talking about 102 00:06:54,960 --> 00:06:57,160 Speaker 1: we poured gas on it to get rid of hair 103 00:06:57,200 --> 00:07:01,039 Speaker 1: and fiber. Okay, good for you, But did you have 104 00:07:01,279 --> 00:07:04,400 Speaker 1: like wood to fire this? Did you have kindling to 105 00:07:04,480 --> 00:07:07,560 Speaker 1: sustain it? Did you? Did you think about these things? 106 00:07:07,600 --> 00:07:11,320 Speaker 1: And in most of these cases, perpetrators do not think 107 00:07:11,720 --> 00:07:14,240 Speaker 1: of all of the little addenda that go along with 108 00:07:14,320 --> 00:07:18,000 Speaker 1: these proceeds. What we are learning right now is Art Harris, 109 00:07:18,040 --> 00:07:22,960 Speaker 1: investigative reporter, has just revealed apparently the skull of an 110 00:07:23,000 --> 00:07:26,200 Speaker 1: Alabama teen girl who vanishes on her high school senior 111 00:07:26,280 --> 00:07:33,080 Speaker 1: trip to Aruba. The skull, according to a confidential informant, 112 00:07:34,600 --> 00:07:38,600 Speaker 1: was destroyed in the sense that Journed Van der Sloot, 113 00:07:38,640 --> 00:07:42,720 Speaker 1: the judge's son, tried to destroy all of Natalie Holloway's 114 00:07:42,800 --> 00:07:46,800 Speaker 1: bones by beating and pulverizing them and then tried to 115 00:07:46,920 --> 00:07:50,600 Speaker 1: set them on fire. But according to the informant quote, 116 00:07:50,680 --> 00:07:54,200 Speaker 1: the only thing that got burned was the skull, got 117 00:07:54,240 --> 00:08:00,400 Speaker 1: that to burn and the hair fibers. It was dousked 118 00:08:00,480 --> 00:08:04,880 Speaker 1: in gasoline in a fire pit in a cave. The 119 00:08:04,920 --> 00:08:08,960 Speaker 1: only thing that got burned was the skull to burn 120 00:08:09,400 --> 00:08:12,560 Speaker 1: the hair fibers. Those are his words, not mine. What 121 00:08:12,680 --> 00:08:16,040 Speaker 1: does that mean, aren't Harris? Is he saying that the 122 00:08:16,120 --> 00:08:19,200 Speaker 1: skull didn't burn just the hair? What is he trying 123 00:08:19,240 --> 00:08:21,880 Speaker 1: to say? Yeah, there was a hair and skin apparently 124 00:08:21,960 --> 00:08:25,280 Speaker 1: that was burned doubts with gasoline. As you mentioned, Nancy, 125 00:08:25,280 --> 00:08:28,360 Speaker 1: this is what the informant is saying. Uh in your 126 00:08:28,520 --> 00:08:31,760 Speaker 1: En and m did together. But it means that there 127 00:08:31,800 --> 00:08:35,360 Speaker 1: are still some bones left over. They were able to 128 00:08:35,440 --> 00:08:40,280 Speaker 1: get enough bone fragments to do this DNA testing that 129 00:08:40,600 --> 00:08:43,640 Speaker 1: is ongoing and as yet to be revealed. What we 130 00:08:43,679 --> 00:08:45,440 Speaker 1: need to hold on just a moment. I want you 131 00:08:45,480 --> 00:08:49,360 Speaker 1: to hear this. Take a listen to former APD Atlanta 132 00:08:49,400 --> 00:08:53,760 Speaker 1: Police Department officer T. J. Ward as he is interrogating 133 00:08:54,240 --> 00:08:59,880 Speaker 1: the informant. As the informant describes trying to destroy now 134 00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:04,400 Speaker 1: Elie's bones. Listen, where did you take it? Where do 135 00:09:04,440 --> 00:09:08,520 Speaker 1: you take a remas? Do not want to be so 136 00:09:08,679 --> 00:09:12,920 Speaker 1: your rats cross. We originally was he had discussed beting 137 00:09:12,920 --> 00:09:15,480 Speaker 1: a cremated, but at that time it wasn't legal. But 138 00:09:15,679 --> 00:09:19,840 Speaker 1: apparently some paces we do it for pets. And what 139 00:09:19,880 --> 00:09:23,880 Speaker 1: did you do? The idea was to crush everything to 140 00:09:23,960 --> 00:09:27,600 Speaker 1: the point where it's not recognized for was arm, bones 141 00:09:27,679 --> 00:09:29,960 Speaker 1: or skull or anything like that? Did you do someone 142 00:09:29,960 --> 00:09:33,040 Speaker 1: with remain before you broke from up? Or did did 143 00:09:33,080 --> 00:09:36,560 Speaker 1: you do something remain after you broke from up? Did 144 00:09:36,559 --> 00:09:40,120 Speaker 1: you bone them? The only thing I've got barn was 145 00:09:40,200 --> 00:09:44,480 Speaker 1: the the skull. To learn the hill fighters, it was 146 00:09:44,600 --> 00:09:49,559 Speaker 1: doused in gastonine and fire. Opinion cave to Joe's got Morgan, Joe, 147 00:09:49,960 --> 00:09:53,960 Speaker 1: let me ask you this. When they're saying the only 148 00:09:54,040 --> 00:09:57,160 Speaker 1: thing that burned was her hair, that meant that that 149 00:09:57,200 --> 00:10:02,000 Speaker 1: means they had to pulverize the bones. Is that possible 150 00:10:02,320 --> 00:10:06,480 Speaker 1: manually to pulverize the bones to a point that you 151 00:10:06,520 --> 00:10:10,680 Speaker 1: can no longer extract DNA? I find that hard to believe. Uh, 152 00:10:10,720 --> 00:10:12,880 Speaker 1: with the with the means that they would have at 153 00:10:12,920 --> 00:10:17,679 Speaker 1: their hand, Uh, it wouldn't be possible to completely pulverize 154 00:10:17,720 --> 00:10:22,880 Speaker 1: the bone. Now, I think the question is how degraded 155 00:10:23,160 --> 00:10:25,679 Speaker 1: the sample would be that they could get out of 156 00:10:25,720 --> 00:10:28,160 Speaker 1: the burned bone. Would it compromise it to the point 157 00:10:28,240 --> 00:10:32,680 Speaker 1: where where they where the scientists still couldn't extract DNA 158 00:10:32,800 --> 00:10:36,440 Speaker 1: from that bone. That again, UH circles back to the 159 00:10:36,480 --> 00:10:40,320 Speaker 1: idea of the teeth. If those teeth are intact, Uh, 160 00:10:40,440 --> 00:10:43,360 Speaker 1: would it be possible to go into the tooth and 161 00:10:43,400 --> 00:10:46,079 Speaker 1: go into the layer what's referred to as the pulp, 162 00:10:46,679 --> 00:10:48,240 Speaker 1: which is one of the elements of the teeth, and 163 00:10:48,360 --> 00:10:50,960 Speaker 1: extract the DNA from there. And I think that that's 164 00:10:51,000 --> 00:10:53,839 Speaker 1: going to be the key in this case. Um, the 165 00:10:54,360 --> 00:10:57,319 Speaker 1: density of the bone that you have, say, for instance, 166 00:10:57,320 --> 00:11:00,080 Speaker 1: in the skull, is not the same as we have 167 00:11:00,200 --> 00:11:01,959 Speaker 1: like in a long bone, like in the femur or 168 00:11:02,000 --> 00:11:05,920 Speaker 1: the humorous where you have this this um high concentration 169 00:11:05,960 --> 00:11:09,120 Speaker 1: of what we referred to as compact bone. That's that's 170 00:11:09,200 --> 00:11:12,160 Speaker 1: where we actually get this partial DNA from that we 171 00:11:12,280 --> 00:11:16,040 Speaker 1: create the strand with UM and look for the markers 172 00:11:16,080 --> 00:11:19,160 Speaker 1: that we have to look for. So UM again, I 173 00:11:19,240 --> 00:11:23,840 Speaker 1: think that it would be really difficult and incrematories. The 174 00:11:23,880 --> 00:11:26,120 Speaker 1: public doesn't know this. Most of the time, after a 175 00:11:26,200 --> 00:11:29,360 Speaker 1: body is burned, Okay, after the body is cremated, it 176 00:11:29,440 --> 00:11:34,200 Speaker 1: goes down. Uh. It actually travels along a track conveyor belt, 177 00:11:34,200 --> 00:11:36,319 Speaker 1: if you will, and it goes through a crusher at 178 00:11:36,360 --> 00:11:39,880 Speaker 1: the end um that's a large spinning wheel, and it 179 00:11:39,960 --> 00:11:43,560 Speaker 1: crushes the bone, pulpifies it down to a point where 180 00:11:43,640 --> 00:11:48,520 Speaker 1: it turns into almost particulate dust. It has the consistency. 181 00:11:48,679 --> 00:11:51,439 Speaker 1: It's not quite as fine as talk, but you can 182 00:11:51,480 --> 00:11:55,480 Speaker 1: look at it and say more than likely, it's consistent 183 00:11:55,520 --> 00:12:00,720 Speaker 1: with very coarse sand. Okay, once again, our heart go 184 00:12:00,920 --> 00:12:07,079 Speaker 1: out to the family of Natalie Holloway as more words 185 00:12:07,840 --> 00:12:14,080 Speaker 1: from the despicable You're in Vandor Slute emerge, their wounds 186 00:12:14,320 --> 00:12:19,240 Speaker 1: being reopened like salt in the wounds about claims now 187 00:12:19,320 --> 00:12:23,960 Speaker 1: from a confidential informant, a friend of your in vander Salute, that, 188 00:12:24,240 --> 00:12:30,320 Speaker 1: following her horrific murder far away from her family on 189 00:12:30,360 --> 00:12:33,920 Speaker 1: a high school senior trip in a Ruba, she is 190 00:12:33,960 --> 00:12:41,760 Speaker 1: then buried, dug up, and her bones her remains taken 191 00:12:41,800 --> 00:12:47,520 Speaker 1: to some obscure cave in Ruba where You're in Vanderslute 192 00:12:47,800 --> 00:12:53,440 Speaker 1: diabolically tries to crush and destroy her bones, tries to 193 00:12:53,600 --> 00:12:59,760 Speaker 1: burn them so she can never be recognized. 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So the the investigators T J. 213 00:14:27,840 --> 00:14:31,320 Speaker 1: Ward and the informant were able to provide a couple 214 00:14:31,320 --> 00:14:35,560 Speaker 1: of small pieces that were not crushed to be analyzed, 215 00:14:35,600 --> 00:14:40,000 Speaker 1: and they've been turned over to a top DNA analysts. 216 00:14:40,080 --> 00:14:42,400 Speaker 1: Who's you running them in the lad as we speak? 217 00:14:42,920 --> 00:14:46,000 Speaker 1: And the results have yet to be determined. Let's talk 218 00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:50,200 Speaker 1: about how they got those uh tiny bits of bone? 219 00:14:50,960 --> 00:14:54,920 Speaker 1: How did that happen? Aren't Harris with me Emmy Award 220 00:14:55,120 --> 00:14:59,600 Speaker 1: winning Reporter art. How did they manage after all this 221 00:14:59,760 --> 00:15:05,680 Speaker 1: time time to locate basically a little more than talcolm dust? 222 00:15:05,880 --> 00:15:09,960 Speaker 1: How did they get it after all this time? Well, 223 00:15:10,040 --> 00:15:14,600 Speaker 1: this source has has revealed the spot where he and 224 00:15:14,640 --> 00:15:19,000 Speaker 1: you're in buried the bones after they crushed what they 225 00:15:19,040 --> 00:15:23,120 Speaker 1: could and be quickly could into into small pieces in 226 00:15:23,280 --> 00:15:26,760 Speaker 1: a burlap bag that was wrapped in a tarp. That 227 00:15:26,920 --> 00:15:32,960 Speaker 1: tarp came from Paulice, uh, the father's house, And suddenly 228 00:15:33,000 --> 00:15:36,640 Speaker 1: they dig this up and they were able to find 229 00:15:36,800 --> 00:15:41,040 Speaker 1: enough remains there so that it was not just dust 230 00:15:41,160 --> 00:15:45,360 Speaker 1: that they they turned over. But they aren't. Can you 231 00:15:45,400 --> 00:15:48,920 Speaker 1: back up a moment. Everybody's been talking about the fact 232 00:15:48,920 --> 00:15:51,600 Speaker 1: that they crushed her remains and tried to burn them. 233 00:15:51,600 --> 00:15:54,920 Speaker 1: Now hold on, say that a little bit more slowly 234 00:15:54,960 --> 00:15:59,440 Speaker 1: for me. Aren't you're saying that after this cave incident 235 00:15:59,520 --> 00:16:03,000 Speaker 1: where the judge's son, yourn vander Slut tries to Actually 236 00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:05,760 Speaker 1: he pays somebody fifteen under bucks to go dig up 237 00:16:05,840 --> 00:16:09,240 Speaker 1: Natalie's body. They bring it to a cave where he 238 00:16:09,360 --> 00:16:12,840 Speaker 1: tries to crush there. I assume there was no soft 239 00:16:12,920 --> 00:16:18,320 Speaker 1: tissue left. She was skeletonized, so they try to pulverize 240 00:16:18,520 --> 00:16:23,120 Speaker 1: the bones and burn them. Now, what happened to the remains? 241 00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:26,240 Speaker 1: Then say that again for me slowly, Nancy. They were 242 00:16:26,320 --> 00:16:31,320 Speaker 1: not able to destroy them totally, and the informant was 243 00:16:31,440 --> 00:16:36,760 Speaker 1: able to identify a spot where enough bone was recovered 244 00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:42,120 Speaker 1: to be analyzed. The question is how well it was analyzed. 245 00:16:42,160 --> 00:16:45,280 Speaker 1: Art Harris Justice got Morgan and Alan Duke take a listen. 246 00:16:45,720 --> 00:16:48,840 Speaker 1: I want you to hear Dave Holloway. This is Natalie's 247 00:16:48,960 --> 00:16:54,000 Speaker 1: dad talking about having handed their findings over to a 248 00:16:54,120 --> 00:16:56,720 Speaker 1: Ruben police. Now, I would not trust a Reuben police 249 00:16:56,760 --> 00:16:59,080 Speaker 1: as far as I can throw them, you know, because 250 00:16:59,120 --> 00:17:03,520 Speaker 1: they protect this judge's son from the get go. And 251 00:17:03,760 --> 00:17:07,600 Speaker 1: police actually called back and claim they're going to the 252 00:17:07,920 --> 00:17:13,800 Speaker 1: suspected location. This is leading up to the excavation of 253 00:17:13,920 --> 00:17:17,320 Speaker 1: the remains of Natalie Holloway. Listen. So how field day. 254 00:17:17,760 --> 00:17:19,280 Speaker 1: I thought it was a very good meeting, and I 255 00:17:19,400 --> 00:17:22,000 Speaker 1: think they were excited and we're all kind of excited 256 00:17:22,080 --> 00:17:27,960 Speaker 1: that um you know this, Um Mike go down, and 257 00:17:28,200 --> 00:17:30,040 Speaker 1: I mean he was real receptive, and I mean I 258 00:17:30,160 --> 00:17:32,640 Speaker 1: felt real good about it. The balls in their court 259 00:17:33,560 --> 00:17:36,320 Speaker 1: and we we shared with them for three hours this 260 00:17:36,440 --> 00:17:39,800 Speaker 1: morning and turned turned that notebook over to them. Plus 261 00:17:39,880 --> 00:17:42,440 Speaker 1: all what we've did since we've been here, and we 262 00:17:42,600 --> 00:17:46,560 Speaker 1: have handed not only the informant but the parties involved 263 00:17:46,720 --> 00:17:49,439 Speaker 1: for them on a silver platterer and hopes that law 264 00:17:49,520 --> 00:17:53,560 Speaker 1: enforcement will take action and move quickly with a lot 265 00:17:53,640 --> 00:18:01,080 Speaker 1: of credible evidence. Yeah, it up, that's what you know. 266 00:18:01,359 --> 00:18:05,080 Speaker 1: Can I can we meet you there? Okay, I'm gonna 267 00:18:05,160 --> 00:18:10,320 Speaker 1: take about maybe in half an hour, all right, Why 268 00:18:10,359 --> 00:18:12,600 Speaker 1: don't we meet you there at five at the Big 269 00:18:12,680 --> 00:18:15,560 Speaker 1: White House. It's right there in that coverside. All right. 270 00:18:15,960 --> 00:18:18,280 Speaker 1: We have a special team here so we can have 271 00:18:18,480 --> 00:18:22,760 Speaker 1: them search devote area. We'll see you know, about forty 272 00:18:22,840 --> 00:18:25,000 Speaker 1: five minutes. All right, Okay, all right, thank you sir. 273 00:18:25,880 --> 00:18:27,840 Speaker 1: This might be it then. I mean, if Faith can 274 00:18:27,920 --> 00:18:32,760 Speaker 1: come in and start excavating, we'll see. Aren't the burrow 275 00:18:32,800 --> 00:18:34,600 Speaker 1: at bag in the tarp? That's what I want to 276 00:18:34,640 --> 00:18:36,760 Speaker 1: hear about. Where was that? And how did we find 277 00:18:36,800 --> 00:18:41,199 Speaker 1: out about it the leftover remains Nancy were buried by 278 00:18:41,359 --> 00:18:45,480 Speaker 1: this informant best friend of your hands, and he describes 279 00:18:45,680 --> 00:18:49,399 Speaker 1: this in an undercover sting with t J. Ward and 280 00:18:49,600 --> 00:18:52,879 Speaker 1: his best friend we see on the Auxten Special leads 281 00:18:52,960 --> 00:18:56,400 Speaker 1: them to a spot and they turned that information over 282 00:18:56,800 --> 00:18:59,600 Speaker 1: to the police. The police actually sinned, as you've said, 283 00:19:00,080 --> 00:19:04,760 Speaker 1: their own crime scene investigators to excavate the site and 284 00:19:04,920 --> 00:19:10,080 Speaker 1: recover enough bones from from the site to be analyzed 285 00:19:10,600 --> 00:19:14,159 Speaker 1: by this DNA expert back in the state. So do 286 00:19:14,240 --> 00:19:16,959 Speaker 1: you understand what he's saying, Joe Scott Morgan That they 287 00:19:17,080 --> 00:19:21,359 Speaker 1: actually go to Paul's manor Sluts home and they find 288 00:19:21,720 --> 00:19:24,040 Speaker 1: the remains in a tarp in a burlapp bag. Is 289 00:19:24,080 --> 00:19:26,520 Speaker 1: that what you said? Are they he led them to 290 00:19:26,640 --> 00:19:31,560 Speaker 1: where they had left the remains that were not uh, 291 00:19:32,440 --> 00:19:34,760 Speaker 1: you know, in the pit or in the spot where 292 00:19:34,800 --> 00:19:37,680 Speaker 1: they were initially buried. Where they at Paul's's house. We 293 00:19:37,840 --> 00:19:41,040 Speaker 1: find out that the informant admits to lying about certain 294 00:19:41,080 --> 00:19:44,479 Speaker 1: things along the way. Finally he tells them that they 295 00:19:44,520 --> 00:19:49,520 Speaker 1: are hidden in police's house and they go and find 296 00:19:50,200 --> 00:19:55,040 Speaker 1: part of the remains from the burlap bag at that place. Well, 297 00:19:55,080 --> 00:19:57,560 Speaker 1: this is what I don't get Joe Scott Morgan helped 298 00:19:57,560 --> 00:20:00,640 Speaker 1: me out on this. The mom, I guess is still 299 00:20:00,680 --> 00:20:03,720 Speaker 1: living there. I mean Vanderslout gave his dad, the judge, 300 00:20:03,800 --> 00:20:07,160 Speaker 1: Paul's Vanderslut, a heart attack. He dropped dead, I think, 301 00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:09,399 Speaker 1: on a tennis court in the midst of all this. 302 00:20:10,920 --> 00:20:13,440 Speaker 1: So how do they not know there's some a dead 303 00:20:13,520 --> 00:20:16,320 Speaker 1: girl's bones in the house. I have no idea. I'm 304 00:20:16,440 --> 00:20:19,600 Speaker 1: I'm shocked as anybody by this. Uh. As a matter 305 00:20:19,640 --> 00:20:23,160 Speaker 1: of fact, UH, from a scientific standpoint, I'd be far 306 00:20:23,240 --> 00:20:28,639 Speaker 1: more interested at this point, uh in these remains that 307 00:20:28,720 --> 00:20:32,280 Speaker 1: they have allegedly found at the house. Because let's keep 308 00:20:32,320 --> 00:20:34,600 Speaker 1: in mind, if they are in a protected area, they 309 00:20:34,640 --> 00:20:37,480 Speaker 1: will not have been exposed to to this harsh environment 310 00:20:37,520 --> 00:20:39,600 Speaker 1: out there. They won't have been buried. I don't know 311 00:20:39,680 --> 00:20:41,879 Speaker 1: where they found them, they're saying they found them, and 312 00:20:41,960 --> 00:20:45,359 Speaker 1: I don't know what condition they're in. But what we 313 00:20:45,960 --> 00:20:49,200 Speaker 1: could do is have those bones examined and find out 314 00:20:49,240 --> 00:20:52,239 Speaker 1: who they belonged to, at least get get some kind 315 00:20:52,280 --> 00:20:55,840 Speaker 1: of of racial profiling of the of the remainders. And 316 00:20:55,920 --> 00:20:59,200 Speaker 1: a minute, we we already have some indication of it. 317 00:20:59,280 --> 00:21:01,240 Speaker 1: But what I'm trying to say, Alan, maybe I'm not 318 00:21:01,359 --> 00:21:08,560 Speaker 1: being clear, Okay, Alan, Duke, They've gotten remains from somewhere, Alan, 319 00:21:09,359 --> 00:21:14,120 Speaker 1: Because there is a renowned doctor on the case called Kowski, 320 00:21:14,800 --> 00:21:19,040 Speaker 1: who worked ground zero at nine one one and started 321 00:21:19,119 --> 00:21:24,680 Speaker 1: a forensics arm, a lab of sorts at a college 322 00:21:24,720 --> 00:21:29,080 Speaker 1: in New York. He is no idiot, okay, And he 323 00:21:29,720 --> 00:21:34,920 Speaker 1: says these remains are of a girl, a lady of 324 00:21:35,080 --> 00:21:39,280 Speaker 1: Eastern European descent. So, um, Joe's got Morgan. I've been 325 00:21:39,359 --> 00:21:44,200 Speaker 1: told that it's going to take a long time, several 326 00:21:44,280 --> 00:21:49,120 Speaker 1: weeks before we've got the answer because from these destroyed remains, 327 00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:53,280 Speaker 1: he's got to extract DNA. Does that make sense to you? No, 328 00:21:53,640 --> 00:21:57,960 Speaker 1: it doesn't. Why because it doesn't take that long to 329 00:21:58,040 --> 00:22:01,600 Speaker 1: examine bone for DNA. What if it's ground up bone 330 00:22:01,680 --> 00:22:04,080 Speaker 1: and you have to extract the DNA from it, still 331 00:22:04,160 --> 00:22:07,600 Speaker 1: not going to take that interesting. This has been This 332 00:22:07,720 --> 00:22:11,080 Speaker 1: has been repeated over and over and over again. It 333 00:22:11,320 --> 00:22:15,639 Speaker 1: does not take this long to test bone. And plus 334 00:22:15,800 --> 00:22:21,000 Speaker 1: he's already stated that he has identified these bones as 335 00:22:21,080 --> 00:22:27,080 Speaker 1: being of European extraction, he already has the information beyond that. 336 00:22:27,520 --> 00:22:29,800 Speaker 1: You don't stop at that point and then say, well 337 00:22:30,119 --> 00:22:32,000 Speaker 1: it's going to take a little while for us to 338 00:22:32,080 --> 00:22:34,600 Speaker 1: go forward from here. It doesn't take I have no 339 00:22:34,840 --> 00:22:40,280 Speaker 1: reason to doubt Kolkowski. Um, take a listen to this, Nancy. 340 00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:43,919 Speaker 1: Let's listen to as part of your interview recently with Gabriel, 341 00:22:44,200 --> 00:22:47,080 Speaker 1: the informant, the one who made it all happen, who 342 00:22:47,200 --> 00:22:51,119 Speaker 1: led t. J. Ward and Dave Holloway to Aruba and 343 00:22:51,280 --> 00:22:53,800 Speaker 1: to this source who eventually led them to the grave 344 00:22:53,920 --> 00:22:57,480 Speaker 1: that is now believed to have been Natalie Holloway's. To Gabriel, 345 00:22:57,520 --> 00:23:01,280 Speaker 1: who's at the central of all this. Gabriel, what bones 346 00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:04,159 Speaker 1: do you believe that they are examining? Because it's been 347 00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:09,520 Speaker 1: made very clear US expert is looking at bones brought 348 00:23:09,720 --> 00:23:13,399 Speaker 1: in from Aruba. So if something was cremated, what is 349 00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:17,840 Speaker 1: there to examine? Um? Like I said, Nancy, Um, he 350 00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:21,119 Speaker 1: said many stories as we were we were doing the 351 00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:27,720 Speaker 1: the the investigation. And uh, I cannot say, because there's 352 00:23:27,720 --> 00:23:30,080 Speaker 1: a twist to all this. It could be true, it 353 00:23:30,119 --> 00:23:33,359 Speaker 1: could be a lie, but there's a twist to everything, 354 00:23:33,520 --> 00:23:36,200 Speaker 1: so I can't really. I have to keep you guys 355 00:23:36,240 --> 00:23:40,240 Speaker 1: in this question. To you, Gabriel, from what you learned 356 00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:45,480 Speaker 1: through John, what have you learned about who is your 357 00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:49,560 Speaker 1: vander Slute. What kind of guy is he? Uh, he's 358 00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:54,040 Speaker 1: a social path, He's a popolos, a liar. He basically 359 00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:56,800 Speaker 1: thinks about himself and if he could be on TV 360 00:23:56,880 --> 00:23:59,800 Speaker 1: and be in the spotlight, that's what he wants. What 361 00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:02,720 Speaker 1: I have learned from from John. How do you think 362 00:24:02,840 --> 00:24:07,720 Speaker 1: he is holding up now? Is he's still in connection 363 00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:11,920 Speaker 1: in contact with John because he's in Peru now Vandersluce 364 00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:17,399 Speaker 1: in Peru. As far as side, No, no, John has not. 365 00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:20,240 Speaker 1: He said the last time that John wrote him a 366 00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:26,280 Speaker 1: letter was back in two let's see two, and has 367 00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:28,919 Speaker 1: not written to him since then, because I guess they 368 00:24:28,920 --> 00:24:33,359 Speaker 1: were they were watching their letters. Do you believe that 369 00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:37,000 Speaker 1: your Vanderslute's father, Paul Is Vanderslute, the judge he was 370 00:24:37,119 --> 00:24:41,400 Speaker 1: now dead, was covering up for his son. Oh definitely. 371 00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:45,000 Speaker 1: There is something else that does that. Not even a 372 00:24:45,080 --> 00:24:50,320 Speaker 1: documentary people have of material that how it came to be, 373 00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:55,000 Speaker 1: where Natalie was placed to her place to rest for 374 00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:58,199 Speaker 1: the very first time? Where was she at? And they 375 00:24:58,240 --> 00:24:59,959 Speaker 1: don't even have the material. I try to tell him, 376 00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:02,879 Speaker 1: but they don't listen to me. Well, where where was it? 377 00:25:03,760 --> 00:25:06,320 Speaker 1: I cannot say it right now due to my lawyer. 378 00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:09,040 Speaker 1: I can't. I can't disclose that right now. I understand, 379 00:25:09,119 --> 00:25:10,920 Speaker 1: I understand, But this way, I'm just gonna give you 380 00:25:10,960 --> 00:25:14,040 Speaker 1: a little hint. Paula's had a best friend in Holland 381 00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:20,960 Speaker 1: that had they had a property. Paula's knew it very well, 382 00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:25,040 Speaker 1: that property, very very well. And that's all I can 383 00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:28,159 Speaker 1: tell you for now. What was it like to be 384 00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:35,640 Speaker 1: working undercover trying to crack this case, Gabriel? Honestly? Uh, honestly, 385 00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:38,240 Speaker 1: Nancy Um, I'm not you know, I'm not a cop, 386 00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:42,400 Speaker 1: I'm not an investigator, and none of this God gave 387 00:25:42,480 --> 00:25:49,320 Speaker 1: me the will and it was very, very frustrating. It's like, uh, 388 00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:52,480 Speaker 1: handling a five year old childhood tantrums day by day. 389 00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:57,520 Speaker 1: It was very difficult, very very difficult. You nobody has 390 00:25:58,080 --> 00:26:00,320 Speaker 1: I mean, if you were locked in with him, you 391 00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:03,239 Speaker 1: were finally strangling because there's no way. And I had 392 00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:05,640 Speaker 1: to take all that crap. I had to grow thick 393 00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:09,040 Speaker 1: skin in order to get the information I needed to 394 00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:15,320 Speaker 1: solve this. How long did it take you, Gabriel Um? 395 00:26:16,080 --> 00:26:20,480 Speaker 1: Approximately almost five years mm hmm, because I started in 396 00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:23,359 Speaker 1: slow to get in him. Once I was in, and 397 00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:25,240 Speaker 1: at the end I pushed hard, and I got what 398 00:26:25,359 --> 00:26:30,240 Speaker 1: I wanted. I was almost there, almost there when everybody 399 00:26:30,359 --> 00:26:35,080 Speaker 1: gave up but me, and I said, no, no, I'm 400 00:26:35,119 --> 00:26:38,040 Speaker 1: not gonna let this go. I know he's there and 401 00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:43,440 Speaker 1: I know, and something remarkable happened, and there the second 402 00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:47,760 Speaker 1: week of April, and I went back when everybody gave up, 403 00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:51,440 Speaker 1: I went back and it was exactly the spot where 404 00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:54,080 Speaker 1: I kind of had a general idea and everybody was 405 00:26:54,119 --> 00:26:56,280 Speaker 1: blown the way. The one that was blown away the most, 406 00:26:56,560 --> 00:26:59,920 Speaker 1: which he had his doubts, was Dave Holloway. I remember 407 00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:03,600 Speaker 1: calling him and I said, Dave, I found her. He goes, 408 00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:06,960 Speaker 1: you gotta be kidding me. So he calls. He tells 409 00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:10,920 Speaker 1: me called Chief Vichinson. So I did, gives me the number. 410 00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:13,320 Speaker 1: I called him, and I said, I want to meet you. 411 00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:17,840 Speaker 1: I found remains. So he comes and meets me. But 412 00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:20,399 Speaker 1: when I met him, he goes, you want to know something. 413 00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:22,320 Speaker 1: I go what. He goes teaching work, called me to 414 00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:24,400 Speaker 1: put you in jail. I go for what he goes 415 00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:27,440 Speaker 1: for messing with this case. He goes, but I'm not 416 00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:29,640 Speaker 1: gonna do that. Can you take me where you where 417 00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:32,400 Speaker 1: you found remains? I go yes, So we go back there. 418 00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:35,960 Speaker 1: They check the area out and then they leave and 419 00:27:36,080 --> 00:27:39,920 Speaker 1: I don't hear nothing, nothing, But I could tell you 420 00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:43,560 Speaker 1: one thing. When we were outside the hotel when they 421 00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:46,280 Speaker 1: seen it, the forensic guys seen it his own people, 422 00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:51,320 Speaker 1: They're like, he virts, asks him is this human? And 423 00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:53,760 Speaker 1: they looked at he goes, yes, this is human. There 424 00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:57,000 Speaker 1: was a piece of a skull and other pieces which 425 00:27:57,080 --> 00:28:00,680 Speaker 1: I don't want to say. According to day Ave Holloway 426 00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:08,240 Speaker 1: and the US medical doctor expert, human remains were found 427 00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:12,440 Speaker 1: and the doctor is analyzing them and extracting DNA from them. 428 00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:18,919 Speaker 1: They are human remains belonging to a female. So, Gabriel, 429 00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:22,800 Speaker 1: how does it work? How could there be bones and 430 00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:29,840 Speaker 1: this cremation story? Well, Nancy, it's very simple. If you 431 00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:32,800 Speaker 1: cream me something, you're not gonna have bones. So the 432 00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:36,720 Speaker 1: other option is it never got created. That is simple answer, 433 00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:41,520 Speaker 1: but it's part of the documentary. I cannot says. It's 434 00:28:41,560 --> 00:28:43,680 Speaker 1: a big twist. I hear you. I mean they That's 435 00:28:43,720 --> 00:28:46,320 Speaker 1: what I was just saying, and you said it very succinctly. 436 00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:51,440 Speaker 1: They can't both be true. Someone may have been mixed 437 00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:55,400 Speaker 1: with a dog at a crematory. Bones may have been 438 00:28:55,600 --> 00:29:01,400 Speaker 1: taken and moved but they can't be the same thing. Now, 439 00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:04,640 Speaker 1: are you have a bombshell? What have you learned from 440 00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:07,840 Speaker 1: your sources? Aren't Harris? And I think what I'm learning 441 00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:13,640 Speaker 1: is that initial tests were inconclusive because the tests came 442 00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:18,240 Speaker 1: from a mixture of the bones that were pulverized, and 443 00:29:18,360 --> 00:29:22,400 Speaker 1: to do a better test you need to test individual bones. 444 00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:25,600 Speaker 1: And actually they're doing that now, Nancy. So they're running 445 00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:30,440 Speaker 1: more tests on more bones that I have learned from 446 00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:33,080 Speaker 1: a source. So are you saying that there are bones 447 00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:36,920 Speaker 1: in two locations? Is that what you're saying is that 448 00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:40,720 Speaker 1: the bombshell their bones in two locations. What I'm saying, 449 00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:44,479 Speaker 1: math is that they had a certain amount of bones 450 00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:49,000 Speaker 1: to test. Some were crushed and tested together. They have 451 00:29:49,280 --> 00:29:53,560 Speaker 1: a couple of remaining pieces they're now testing individually to 452 00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:57,280 Speaker 1: see if they can get a more definitive DNA match 453 00:29:57,680 --> 00:30:00,680 Speaker 1: to be able to say this is Natalie. Is they 454 00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:04,320 Speaker 1: have narrowed it to a woman of Eastern European descent 455 00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:07,440 Speaker 1: in that age category, and now they're trying to zero 456 00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:11,600 Speaker 1: in to give the father the closures. They have more 457 00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:16,400 Speaker 1: bones to test. They tested initially bones that were mixed 458 00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:21,720 Speaker 1: together that didn't necessarily give a definitive answer that would 459 00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:24,320 Speaker 1: conform to what Joe Scott Morgan is saying that they 460 00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:27,440 Speaker 1: had enough time. They did, but they didn't have the 461 00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:32,360 Speaker 1: best samples to declare that what they are finding or 462 00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:36,880 Speaker 1: would find is a bona fide and respected result. Natalie 463 00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:40,040 Speaker 1: Holloway was on her high school trip in Aruba when 464 00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:43,800 Speaker 1: she went missing, and it was five years to the 465 00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:48,440 Speaker 1: day that another young woman was murdered by yourn vander Salute, 466 00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:53,880 Speaker 1: Stephanie Tassiana Flores. He is now behind bars in Peru 467 00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:58,040 Speaker 1: on that murder. But the reality is that being behind 468 00:30:58,120 --> 00:31:01,200 Speaker 1: bars has been a cake walk for yourn Vanderslute. He 469 00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:06,840 Speaker 1: has gotten ahold of alcohol, reported drugs, and even fathered 470 00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:14,440 Speaker 1: a baby from behind prison walls. So with that in mind, 471 00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:18,720 Speaker 1: Joseph Scott Morgan, if this pans out to be true, 472 00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:25,240 Speaker 1: would he be returned to a Ruba for prosecution if 473 00:31:25,480 --> 00:31:29,120 Speaker 1: the a Reuben authorities have the will to move forward. 474 00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:34,560 Speaker 1: My thought is is that, uh, if this is going 475 00:31:34,600 --> 00:31:37,920 Speaker 1: to be this crucial piece of evidence could potentially be 476 00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:42,360 Speaker 1: used as legal leverage by our US State Department to 477 00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:46,760 Speaker 1: compel the Auruban authorities to get off of their Reari 478 00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:49,560 Speaker 1: ends and do something about this case, which to this 479 00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:52,960 Speaker 1: point the kind of failed to do. We know that 480 00:31:53,280 --> 00:31:59,160 Speaker 1: the informant Ludwick previously said Vanderslout paid in fift bucks 481 00:31:59,160 --> 00:32:02,280 Speaker 1: to pick up, not dig up. Now they's remains near 482 00:32:02,360 --> 00:32:08,320 Speaker 1: a residential property in Aruba. Okay, that's got to be 483 00:32:09,040 --> 00:32:13,280 Speaker 1: the police vander Salute home or a friend of police 484 00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:16,880 Speaker 1: vander Salutes. Alan Duke. I was also told that the 485 00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:20,760 Speaker 1: remains were buried on the property of a friend of 486 00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:24,840 Speaker 1: Paulice vander Slutz. Now that is inconsistent with finding the 487 00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:28,720 Speaker 1: remains in vander slutz family home. What do we know? 488 00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:33,240 Speaker 1: I think the problem is that there are sources that 489 00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:36,600 Speaker 1: cannot be revealed. Now there's some confidential outlets come out 490 00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:41,840 Speaker 1: Nancy that the remains were found near his house at 491 00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:48,240 Speaker 1: a relatives property. And they are testing, you know, now 492 00:32:48,520 --> 00:32:56,280 Speaker 1: a new samples because the first ones came back undetermined, 493 00:32:57,280 --> 00:33:00,920 Speaker 1: and they know they have confidence that they're going to 494 00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:05,440 Speaker 1: get a good result from individual pieces of bone that 495 00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:09,400 Speaker 1: they did not test that way initially. You know, when 496 00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:12,920 Speaker 1: you hear that Joe Scott Morgan that they're now going 497 00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:16,240 Speaker 1: on that's a huge bombshell that they're going on to 498 00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:20,200 Speaker 1: another test that the first one was indeterminate because now 499 00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:25,080 Speaker 1: they have more of a bone. Is that putting the 500 00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:28,320 Speaker 1: puzzle together for you, Joe Scott? Yeah, it kind of 501 00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:31,360 Speaker 1: brings it into into clear focus. And just let me 502 00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:33,680 Speaker 1: expand on this just a little bit. When you've got 503 00:33:33,760 --> 00:33:38,200 Speaker 1: this pulpified bone that has been crushed, albeit probably at 504 00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:41,480 Speaker 1: a very rudimentary level, it's still going to be what 505 00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:45,360 Speaker 1: we refer to in forensics as being a commingled sample. 506 00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:47,960 Speaker 1: That means that you know, we talked about dog bones 507 00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:51,080 Speaker 1: and all this other stuff. If they are commingled with 508 00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:53,840 Speaker 1: these other remains, that's gonna be problematic if the thing 509 00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:57,479 Speaker 1: is pulpified and commingled. If you think about a bone 510 00:33:57,920 --> 00:34:03,840 Speaker 1: as an individual little case that's carrying sensitive information, like 511 00:34:03,960 --> 00:34:07,240 Speaker 1: a briefcase, for instance, and that briefcase has not been 512 00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:10,880 Speaker 1: broken open, all right, it's still got the sensitive information 513 00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:13,839 Speaker 1: in it. That is going to be a much that's 514 00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:18,200 Speaker 1: gonna have a higher likelihood of containing viable DNA sample 515 00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:21,040 Speaker 1: as opposed to something that has been put under pressure 516 00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:23,880 Speaker 1: and crushed. So yeah, I'm gonna be really interested if 517 00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:27,520 Speaker 1: they are in fact running a second test. Another thing 518 00:34:27,600 --> 00:34:29,840 Speaker 1: that we have to consider here from a legal standpoint 519 00:34:30,080 --> 00:34:35,239 Speaker 1: is the provenance of the evidence. Where did this come from? 520 00:34:35,719 --> 00:34:37,960 Speaker 1: Are we talking about a couple of different sites here? 521 00:34:38,200 --> 00:34:40,960 Speaker 1: Are we talking about somebody that that's some creep that's 522 00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:44,239 Speaker 1: holding on too remains of some deceased person, uh and 523 00:34:44,320 --> 00:34:47,759 Speaker 1: they're storing them back. Or here's a big one. There 524 00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:51,080 Speaker 1: are other missing people in a Ruba, Nancy. It is 525 00:34:51,160 --> 00:34:54,400 Speaker 1: not just poor Natalie, it's other people that are missing 526 00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:58,279 Speaker 1: down there. So this is gonna be key to not 527 00:34:58,520 --> 00:35:00,800 Speaker 1: just this case, but to other case. There there's a 528 00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:03,399 Speaker 1: lot there, There's a lot of weight to bear here. 529 00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:06,400 Speaker 1: I think that a big reveal is in the future 530 00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:09,719 Speaker 1: and that's that's what we're waiting to see. Listen to 531 00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:14,200 Speaker 1: this from the Oxygen series on Natalie Holloway. Earlier we 532 00:35:14,360 --> 00:35:17,880 Speaker 1: heard part of t J Ward's interrogation of John, but 533 00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:20,040 Speaker 1: now let's listen to more of this. This is what 534 00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:23,160 Speaker 1: you'll hear towards the end of episode five of the 535 00:35:23,239 --> 00:35:26,800 Speaker 1: disappearance of Natalie Holloway on Oxygen. Tell me what you 536 00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:29,880 Speaker 1: know or what he told you about Mount halliway, the 537 00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:32,800 Speaker 1: first night he ever opened up about it, about the 538 00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:35,120 Speaker 1: May thirtieth night was we were at my house, my 539 00:35:35,239 --> 00:35:37,600 Speaker 1: night in the Lifetime movie came on, so we last year, 540 00:35:38,120 --> 00:35:41,840 Speaker 1: and throughout the movie there they're doing different things and stuff, 541 00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:45,000 Speaker 1: and he started telling me like, you know, that's not true, 542 00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:48,000 Speaker 1: like that he was picking movie apart. Tommy, Yeah, that's true. 543 00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:51,080 Speaker 1: That's bogan is that's true, that's bogus. So that's how 544 00:35:51,160 --> 00:35:54,040 Speaker 1: we started talking to me. Eventually, after the movie ended 545 00:35:54,120 --> 00:35:57,879 Speaker 1: that night, he started talking about it and said, you know, John, 546 00:35:58,040 --> 00:36:01,360 Speaker 1: I want you to know that bad things happen to 547 00:36:01,480 --> 00:36:06,319 Speaker 1: good people. Accidents happened. Where did he takenamily got night? 548 00:36:07,440 --> 00:36:09,759 Speaker 1: I'm not sure he acted rates her, but I know 549 00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:12,400 Speaker 1: that he said I had help and it wasn't It 550 00:36:12,560 --> 00:36:15,000 Speaker 1: wasn't beat back in Cities. Who helped him? He never 551 00:36:15,040 --> 00:36:17,560 Speaker 1: said Polis his name, but him tied it was his father. 552 00:36:19,320 --> 00:36:21,480 Speaker 1: So after something happened to her on the beach, he 553 00:36:21,560 --> 00:36:26,000 Speaker 1: called Paulas. Yes, and then what happened, I guess Paulas 554 00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:28,359 Speaker 1: came and helped him figure out how to get rid 555 00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:31,319 Speaker 1: of evidence. Where did they detect the body after they 556 00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:36,680 Speaker 1: got her off the beach? He's dad. He got everything disposal, 557 00:36:37,040 --> 00:36:43,359 Speaker 1: I mean before sunrise that they where there's a cold 558 00:36:43,480 --> 00:36:46,480 Speaker 1: there's a quotas act there that on the top of 559 00:36:46,560 --> 00:36:50,080 Speaker 1: the hill, that it's desert dated cactuses and thornful ships 560 00:36:50,160 --> 00:36:52,919 Speaker 1: and nobody goes up there. At what point in time 561 00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:57,319 Speaker 1: did he ask you and tell you about doing someone 562 00:36:57,480 --> 00:36:59,359 Speaker 1: remaining noting all the way? Now, what does he want 563 00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:01,799 Speaker 1: you to do? Well? He knew I was heavily hooked 564 00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:03,759 Speaker 1: on heroin at the time, and I didn't have the 565 00:37:04,040 --> 00:37:08,279 Speaker 1: resources to keep it up daily. So he was saying, 566 00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:14,160 Speaker 1: I'll give you for your help. Did he in fact 567 00:37:14,200 --> 00:37:17,480 Speaker 1: give you fift yes? Okay? Did you go by yourself 568 00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:26,000 Speaker 1: under his instruction? Did he go with you? No? Because 569 00:37:26,040 --> 00:37:29,279 Speaker 1: he smell I want you to think about that. Did 570 00:37:29,360 --> 00:37:37,080 Speaker 1: he go with you the dig a remains up? Yes? 571 00:37:37,680 --> 00:37:40,680 Speaker 1: Did he go with you? Up? With you? All? Right? 572 00:37:40,719 --> 00:37:45,280 Speaker 1: So y'all went out there and about for nights, okay? 573 00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:50,640 Speaker 1: And what happened? The burlap sack was wrapped in a 574 00:37:50,920 --> 00:37:54,240 Speaker 1: la tart, so it was kind of like keeping stuff 575 00:37:54,280 --> 00:37:58,000 Speaker 1: from seeking out. Basically, did you open it up? Did 576 00:37:58,040 --> 00:38:01,800 Speaker 1: you look at it? Okay? What'd you say? It? Very nasty? 577 00:38:01,920 --> 00:38:07,480 Speaker 1: Look through my blackish strown dried matter. How do you feel, 578 00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:10,560 Speaker 1: I'm sure? How did you feel when you saw I 579 00:38:10,600 --> 00:38:14,560 Speaker 1: almost threw up? Right? Away just from the the gas 580 00:38:14,640 --> 00:38:19,719 Speaker 1: from over till throw dick or do you take a 581 00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:24,280 Speaker 1: remin do you not go? Believe to your rants crops? 582 00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:28,960 Speaker 1: We originally he had discussed getting a cremated, but at 583 00:38:29,040 --> 00:38:33,040 Speaker 1: that time it wasn't legal, but apparently some places we'd 584 00:38:33,040 --> 00:38:36,360 Speaker 1: do it for pets. And what did you do? The 585 00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:39,600 Speaker 1: idea was to crush everything to the point where it's 586 00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:43,560 Speaker 1: not recognizable as arm bones or skull or anything like that. 587 00:38:43,920 --> 00:38:46,600 Speaker 1: Did you do someone to remain before you broke from up? 588 00:38:47,200 --> 00:38:49,440 Speaker 1: Or did did you do something remain after you broke 589 00:38:49,480 --> 00:38:53,440 Speaker 1: from up? Did you burn him? The only thing that 590 00:38:53,600 --> 00:38:58,080 Speaker 1: got burnt with the the skull to learn the hair fighters, 591 00:38:58,800 --> 00:39:06,560 Speaker 1: there's doused and gas mean and fire being kept. It's 592 00:39:06,560 --> 00:39:09,279 Speaker 1: about fifty yards to the right of Hits from VI 593 00:39:09,360 --> 00:39:14,160 Speaker 1: in the desert. You are hearing sound from Oxygen's special 594 00:39:14,320 --> 00:39:19,000 Speaker 1: documentary series on the Search for Natalie Holloway that starts 595 00:39:19,080 --> 00:39:24,560 Speaker 1: with her dad Dave Holloway, along with a P. D. T. J. Ward, 596 00:39:24,600 --> 00:39:28,640 Speaker 1: now private investigator, trying to follow leads and find his daughter. 597 00:39:29,680 --> 00:39:33,439 Speaker 1: That leads me to our question as to whether you're 598 00:39:33,760 --> 00:39:39,080 Speaker 1: vander Slute will ever be extradited to the U. S art. 599 00:39:39,200 --> 00:39:42,240 Speaker 1: What do you make of it? Will he be extradited here? Fancy? 600 00:39:42,320 --> 00:39:46,640 Speaker 1: The FBI has been reluctant to to trust this very 601 00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:51,040 Speaker 1: questionable friend of vander Sluts as a witness to get 602 00:39:51,360 --> 00:39:54,919 Speaker 1: any to get the killer extradited to the States alleged killer, 603 00:39:55,320 --> 00:39:58,759 Speaker 1: because they need evidence to be able to convict in 604 00:39:58,880 --> 00:40:03,680 Speaker 1: so far, all they've got against him is shaking down 605 00:40:05,880 --> 00:40:10,000 Speaker 1: shaking down Natalie's mother for twenty dollars. That is not 606 00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:12,000 Speaker 1: enough to get an extradge of the States. If they 607 00:40:12,040 --> 00:40:15,640 Speaker 1: can get enough solid evidence from the site and Reuben 608 00:40:15,640 --> 00:40:19,600 Speaker 1: authorities will invite the FBI in for a joint investigation. 609 00:40:20,360 --> 00:40:25,960 Speaker 1: Big if they could possibly develop extradition material to get 610 00:40:26,080 --> 00:40:28,760 Speaker 1: him sent to the States to be tried for murder. 611 00:40:29,400 --> 00:40:31,759 Speaker 1: But they had there are a lot of a lot 612 00:40:31,840 --> 00:40:34,920 Speaker 1: of things to jump over before that. How does how 613 00:40:35,000 --> 00:40:37,080 Speaker 1: do you get him here for murder because it happened 614 00:40:37,160 --> 00:40:44,120 Speaker 1: in Araba? Well, the FBI has jurisdiction over Americans killed 615 00:40:44,160 --> 00:40:48,360 Speaker 1: abroad and if they can develop a case jointly with 616 00:40:48,520 --> 00:40:52,399 Speaker 1: the Rubens could be tried in the States as well. 617 00:40:53,520 --> 00:40:55,719 Speaker 1: This must be a nightmare for her parents. It's like 618 00:40:55,840 --> 00:41:02,200 Speaker 1: it will never end. Never too, aren't Harris Emmy Award 619 00:41:02,560 --> 00:41:08,640 Speaker 1: winning investigative reporter and Joseph Scott Morgan death investigator forensics 620 00:41:08,760 --> 00:41:15,040 Speaker 1: professor at Jacksonville State University. We're on the case. Thank you, 621 00:41:16,480 --> 00:41:26,080 Speaker 1: Nancy Grace Crime Stories signing off, goodbye friend. Do you 622 00:41:26,160 --> 00:41:29,360 Speaker 1: find yourself obsessing over unsolved mysteries? Do you wish there 623 00:41:29,440 --> 00:41:31,480 Speaker 1: was a group of people just like you to talk 624 00:41:31,560 --> 00:41:34,440 Speaker 1: motives and alibis with. If so, joined the Crime Con 625 00:41:34,600 --> 00:41:37,640 Speaker 1: Cold Case Club and work alongside experts and fellow crime 626 00:41:37,719 --> 00:41:40,160 Speaker 1: sleuths to help uncover new leads and theories in the 627 00:41:40,280 --> 00:41:43,320 Speaker 1: cold cases. They adopt. Their first cold case focuses on 628 00:41:43,400 --> 00:41:46,400 Speaker 1: the mysterious disappearance of nursing student Maura Murray in two 629 00:41:46,480 --> 00:41:49,280 Speaker 1: thousand four, and it's free to join thanks to Oxygen. 630 00:41:49,400 --> 00:41:52,160 Speaker 1: Sign up now or find more info at Club dot 631 00:41:52,239 --> 00:41:55,439 Speaker 1: crime con dot com. That's club dot crime con dot com.