Speaker 1: This is a me eater podcast coming in you shirtless,
Speaker 1: severely bitten and in my case underwear lissen don't to
Speaker 1: eat podcast. You can't predict anything. It's it's it's thank
Speaker 1: you for that. That's all I really wanted to do tonight,
Speaker 1: So thank you. I appreciate it. It's super dark. But
Speaker 1: where's a dude named Justin Grimes? He's not his honeymoon
Speaker 1: They yeah, like they made this part of the honeymoon
Speaker 1: trip man, which is really flattering something. We're glad you're here. Um,
Speaker 1: when I when I get uh, when I give wedding
Speaker 1: but marriage vice, don't ever ask, but I do give it.
Speaker 1: And I was like, say, read like you're not gonna
Speaker 1: understand that you do it, But read the works as
Speaker 1: you think about your married life, your married life, Read
Speaker 1: the works of Cormick McCarthy and looking there for the
Speaker 1: strict moral code that governs the world of Cormick McCarthy,
Speaker 1: because you'll find that the people that he's most severe
Speaker 1: with are people who make a decision to do something
Speaker 1: and then later try to live a life in which
Speaker 1: they hadn't made that decision. If you're just flat out evil,
Speaker 1: Cormick McCarthy doesn't hurt you. He hurts people who who
Speaker 1: dabble in evilness, So bear that in mind. Um, but
Speaker 1: Bozeman man, like, yeah, I heard everybody yelling earlier with
Speaker 1: from Montana like I live in never like constant jealousy
Speaker 1: of Montana residents. Um, you know I lived your long time.
Speaker 1: It's like I miss it. I love it. I learned
Speaker 1: a thing from my two year old recently that when
Speaker 1: my twyar olds jealous of something, he just destroys it.
Speaker 1: So if his sister draws a cool picture and everybody's like, oh, Rosemary,
Speaker 1: it's amazing, he just is like no, And um, so
Speaker 1: I kind of want now. I almost like Montana to
Speaker 1: go to ship because like the way more people move
Speaker 1: here to just go to ship and then I wouldn't
Speaker 1: have to like come here and be so bummed out
Speaker 1: all the time. That's really heartbreaking for me to come here.
Speaker 1: They advertised Montana where I live in Seattle, they advertised Montana.
Speaker 1: So like, when I'm driving around stuck in traffic jams,
Speaker 1: I gotta look at dudes in Montana, billboards of dudes
Speaker 1: in Montana doing fun stuff. And it recently got better
Speaker 1: because for some reason I got a guy up there
Speaker 1: now paddle boarding and like, so I feel no jealousy,
Speaker 1: Like I feel like it's twenty years ago. If I
Speaker 1: if you've had a dude over your house and you
Speaker 1: live on a lake and you're like, hey man, you
Speaker 1: can take the kayak all you take the canoe out
Speaker 1: bro um, you can take this surfboard. I could like
Speaker 1: duct tape a stick onto a paddle But it's like,
Speaker 1: it's like the Works. It's like Harry Potter books where
Speaker 1: in a vacuum, you know, if you'd set humanity back
Speaker 1: and let it go again, uh, we wouldn't be paddle boarding.
Speaker 1: It's like like but but if you set the clock
Speaker 1: back of humanity a million years and like let it
Speaker 1: go again, I would like to do that ten times
Speaker 1: and see which things we stick with in which we don't.
Speaker 1: And I'm damn sure. Like a person is gonna see
Speaker 1: a horned animal walk by and he's like, I'm gonna
Speaker 1: find a way to run a projectile through that. Things
Speaker 1: ribs like a couple of just behind the shoulder blade.
Speaker 1: It's like that again and again and again will emerge.
Speaker 1: But um, I don't mean a hack on paddle board
Speaker 1: it's just like seeing that sign really is I just
Speaker 1: feel it's not a legitimate pastime man um moving like
Speaker 1: moving to Bozeman though, or like like there's a long
Speaker 1: history of moving to Bozeman, and and it's like when
Speaker 1: I think about, oh I should move back here, you know,
Speaker 1: your your heads overwhelmed with all the things that could
Speaker 1: go right and the things that could go wrong. UH.
Speaker 1: Years ago, me and Matt here we uh I went
Speaker 1: to check out sixty six miles east of here. Basically
Speaker 1: the highway UH runs over a grave site sixty six
Speaker 1: miles east of here, and it's like they just there's
Speaker 1: a bunch of bodies buried in the grave, and they
Speaker 1: piled some rocks on it. And later like the highway
Speaker 1: kind of runs right along. It's between the highway and
Speaker 1: the railroad. So every time you go by, you looking
Speaker 1: and see this grave and this guy. It was three
Speaker 1: hundred and fifty years ago and three hundred and three
Speaker 1: or a hundred fifty years ago and three hundred and
Speaker 1: sixty one days, I think. Ago, there's this guy who
Speaker 1: is in Illinois and his two daughters and his wife
Speaker 1: carried off by pneumonia, and he's got one boy left.
Speaker 1: This guy's by the last name of Thomas. He's got
Speaker 1: a boy named Charlie, so the only thing he's got left,
Speaker 1: and he's got family in Bozeman. So in eight sixty
Speaker 1: six is dude packs up and he's gonna move out
Speaker 1: to Bozeman, make the big jump, and he follows the
Speaker 1: or he goes to St. Louis and follows the Oregon Trail,
Speaker 1: and like he's the Oregon Trail going along in southern
Speaker 1: Wyoming along the Platte, and then he jumps off and
Speaker 1: he's gonna go and follow the Bozeman Trail. And at
Speaker 1: that time the Bozeman Trail jumped off the Platte and
Speaker 1: went up the east flank of the Big Horns and
Speaker 1: hooked around to the north of the Big Horns. So
Speaker 1: this guy is going along and he passes what the
Speaker 1: what will be in a few months after his passing
Speaker 1: the Fetterman Fight, where seventies some soldiers get massacred by
Speaker 1: Sioux warriors. And he goes a little further and passes
Speaker 1: the Little Big Horn Battlefield, where in ten years a
Speaker 1: couple of hundred soldiers will get massacred by Sue and
Speaker 1: Cheyenne warriors. And he's traveled Jim Bridger and they and
Speaker 1: they come across a grave site where they just buried
Speaker 1: some other guys and he's all been out of shape.
Speaker 1: He's got a diary and he writes about how the
Speaker 1: wolves that dug them up and toward the rib me
Speaker 1: off him. And there's another grave site and the wolves
Speaker 1: that toward their face off them, and he starts painting
Speaker 1: this like awful picture of moving to Bozeman. Eventually a
Speaker 1: wagon breaks down and he leaves Bridger behind. And this
Speaker 1: guy's a minister, and he's thinking to himself that I'm
Speaker 1: gonna put my faith in God and travel without arms,
Speaker 1: because now that we're west of the mouth of the
Speaker 1: Big Horn, we're in Crol country and everyone knows you're
Speaker 1: safe from Curl country. So he pushes on by himself
Speaker 1: and they get over. Uh, like I said, sixty six
Speaker 1: miles here a little bit outside of Columbus, and it's
Speaker 1: him and his boy and a wagon driver named Joel Schultz. Uh.
Speaker 1: They get attacked. The next day they find the dad.
Speaker 1: He's got thirteen arrows stuck in him and he's scalped
Speaker 1: and he's parked by the rear tire of his wagon.
Speaker 1: His little boy's got three arrows and he's scalped by
Speaker 1: the front tire of the wagon. And Joe Schultz, the
Speaker 1: wagon drivers down by the river. He's got a dozen
Speaker 1: arrows in him and he had two cutthroats. Two cutthroat
Speaker 1: trouts they found the next day. So he was one
Speaker 1: trout over his bag limit. And I always return like
Speaker 1: approaching I always like passed that gravesite when approaching this area,
Speaker 1: and I always think of that. But then, like if
Speaker 1: you juxtapose that with my brother Matt, wasn't there a
Speaker 1: bit and there were The Sun has a um diary,
Speaker 1: and Sad has a diary. The dad has a diary,
Speaker 1: and in there it says something like, yeah, Jim Bridger
Speaker 1: told me not to go this way, but he's full
Speaker 1: of ship or something like that. That's that's rumored. He
Speaker 1: had a diary. When he crossed Bridger Creek, he wrote
Speaker 1: in his diary that we lost our coffee pot. The
Speaker 1: crazy thing is the last thing Thomas wrote in his diary.
Speaker 1: The night before he died. He wrote in his diary,
Speaker 1: we broke our champagne bottle. People have always wondered if
Speaker 1: it meant that he was so close to Bozeman, did
Speaker 1: we we're celebrating prematurely? Or that like losing his coffee
Speaker 1: pot when he crossed Bridger Creek he busted the champagne bottle.
Speaker 1: So there's like that version of moving to Bozeman which
Speaker 1: sticks in my mind. But then you have like Matt,
Speaker 1: Matt moves to Bozeman, earns himself a PhD. He points
Speaker 1: out that it was his second one because he already
Speaker 1: had a pretty huge and then still do then Mary's
Speaker 1: Mary's a girl of the ranch. So does that version
Speaker 1: move into Bozeman? Um? I think about that. I do
Speaker 1: think about this all the time. So with that preamble,
Speaker 1: we're gonna roll through some vexing questions. And many of
Speaker 1: these questions have come from folks in the audience tonight.
Speaker 1: Some of them are gonna be on the easy end
Speaker 1: of things, such as the guy was wondering, were you
Speaker 1: to encounterate? He calls it a legitimate sasquatch. Were you
Speaker 1: to encounter inmate sasquatsh like not you know, the fuzzy one,
Speaker 1: not like an out of focused sasquash, but a legitimate fasquat.
Speaker 1: And uh. The comedian Mitch Hedburg he postulates the sasquatch
Speaker 1: Bigfoot is just blurry and you can't get a good
Speaker 1: picture of him. But if you're gonna do it, he's like,
Speaker 1: what did he's take a timber buck? Would you take
Speaker 1: a crack? Like? He adds to it, he adds the questions.
Speaker 1: The guy with the question asks some color to where
Speaker 1: he's like, you know, no one's gonna believe you. So
Speaker 1: here you are in this situation where you're just gonna
Speaker 1: be the come of the laughing stock? Would you kill Bigfoot?
Speaker 1: Are you asking? Are you looking at Yeah, no, don't.
Speaker 1: I don't have an interesting answer that question is no way.
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna shoot some two legged thing that's walking around.
Speaker 1: Like That's where I'm at on it. How do you know?
Speaker 1: How do It's like there's yeah, there's no tag system.
Speaker 1: I would just like let it walk. I would. I
Speaker 1: would for legal reasons. No, it's not like a reward
Speaker 1: punishment thing. It's just like, hey, I've never seen one
Speaker 1: of them before. Let's make it be dead. Ye, Like
Speaker 1: guys are going to African safaris, like, so that's what
Speaker 1: that looks like. The folks that mistake or these Let's
Speaker 1: say you go on a hunt, right, You've never been
Speaker 1: in Bearer country ever, and you go on a hunt
Speaker 1: in the bitter at range and the outfitter says, shoot
Speaker 1: any bury see and that hunter she would say, grizzly bear.
Speaker 1: I hate that. You gotta know what you're shooting at.
Speaker 1: So for that reason, no, I like, I have never
Speaker 1: seen that. I have no idea what it is. I'm
Speaker 1: not going to pull the trigger for the you can't
Speaker 1: judge the trophy quality on it, no established scories. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it might change after I come out with my story,
Speaker 1: but I would just let it pass and then be
Speaker 1: when the sons of bitches believe me, I'm going back. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but I wouldn't know. I feel like I'm trustworthy enough.
Speaker 1: Would it be at least a small contingent of people
Speaker 1: that would trust me and we would It would regenerate
Speaker 1: at least for another fifty years. Would be a strong,
Speaker 1: you know, bigfoot community. No, I would not. I would
Speaker 1: always think less of you. I would like I would
Speaker 1: always I would always question your judgment. I would always
Speaker 1: think a little bit less of you. I like when
Speaker 1: I get into are there bigfoot arguments? Um? The thing
Speaker 1: that I found that I like to use, I don't
Speaker 1: know if it's really that effective. Is They bring up
Speaker 1: that this is an argument that serious people have anymore.
Speaker 1: Do you ever like turn on cable television? Many build No,
Speaker 1: I will indulge in for Max. It's it's interesting. It's
Speaker 1: a thing I try out when arguing with people about
Speaker 1: the plausibility Bigfoot. Is like I like to go to
Speaker 1: when Florida was down to forty some panthers, that multiple
Speaker 1: panthers every year getting hit on the road, and look
Speaker 1: at all their like really limited populations of animals, and
Speaker 1: then how many of them turn up dead on the road.
Speaker 1: And then to bring up the idea that that the
Speaker 1: entire fire history of automobile travel, we haven't hit one
Speaker 1: yet like that. It's just like if you got six
Speaker 1: of something one, I'm gonna get hit by a car.
Speaker 1: And all other populations of animals, you know, well, maybe
Speaker 1: they're just super smart. It could be Okay. Here's another
Speaker 1: one that came in. This is this is like I
Speaker 1: actually want to kind of hire this guy. There is
Speaker 1: a guy named Luke Ryan. I want to hire as
Speaker 1: like a resident company philosopher. Luke Ryan has this He's
Speaker 1: got a lot of things. He comes up and This
Speaker 1: is when he comes up. Have you guys been tracking
Speaker 1: about the lone Star tick? Okay, there's a tick, lone
Speaker 1: Star tick. It's common in Texas. This tick bites you,
Speaker 1: and when it bites you, you it's like when you
Speaker 1: get bit by Uh, a chicken might carry a bacterial
Speaker 1: infection that gives you lyme disease. This tick carries an
Speaker 1: infection that winds up and this legit. I wouldn't read
Speaker 1: about this. It winds up having it winds up that
Speaker 1: you become allergic to red meat. It's an infection that
Speaker 1: carries with it a red meat allergy. You become allergic
Speaker 1: to red meat. You can become allergic to dairy. So
Speaker 1: he's wondering, were this to happen to you, how would
Speaker 1: your relationship to hunting change? Like would you keep hunting?
Speaker 1: I hate this question. It's kind of like yeah, it's
Speaker 1: like it's like a question that comes up. But I
Speaker 1: just like this because it has like a spin on
Speaker 1: like like how wet are you? You know? Because he
Speaker 1: like he points out you could go and uh still
Speaker 1: hunt and feed it to your kids food banks, but
Speaker 1: you can't eat it. Yeah, I wouldn't. I just that
Speaker 1: would that would take it out of it. I mean
Speaker 1: the just yeah, this is it would lose its mystique
Speaker 1: at that point. So last year my dad called up.
Speaker 1: He said, hey, I would love it if you could
Speaker 1: get me an elk this year. So for the first
Speaker 1: time in a long long time, I shot to elk
Speaker 1: last year. But yeah, I don't know if the desire
Speaker 1: I wouldn't have the you know, hungry hunter hunts past. Right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's a tough one. What about Well he did add
Speaker 1: in that you could you know, you would turn into
Speaker 1: the world's best water fowler and upen game hunters. Right,
Speaker 1: That's what I was gonna say. I would. I would,
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, no, he gets rich. Yeah, he thinks about
Speaker 1: this stuff. What's it's just red meat from big gaming,
Speaker 1: red meat and dairy. You can still fish, you can
Speaker 1: still Crane's geese ducks. Those are pretty dark. I would
Speaker 1: definitely do it because I've off a point out. It's
Speaker 1: like if it wasn't for if it didn't get food
Speaker 1: and it wasn't fun. If you drop either those things out,
Speaker 1: either those two things out, I'm done. All right, this
Speaker 1: ceases to be fun and it ceases they old food.
Speaker 1: I'm paddle boarding probably. Well, you're honest. You and I
Speaker 1: were just talking the you know, purely getting groceries. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know what, there's I have spots where it's like,
Speaker 1: all right, didn't get anything. I don't call it hunting
Speaker 1: because I know for certainty I'm going to be coming
Speaker 1: home with something. Yeah, the grocery get Yeah, it's total groceries. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and I wouldn't say yeah, I don't want to chalk
Speaker 1: that up. It's like, yeah, super fun outing. It's like, boy,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna go take an afternoon off and go get
Speaker 1: a white tail though. But it's fun. Yeah, there's still
Speaker 1: have some fun. Yeah, for sure, more fun than going
Speaker 1: to Albertson's. It'd be hard to HiPE for me to hypothesize.
Speaker 1: I think I'd have to go through the process and
Speaker 1: you know, be at home but right all up, wrap
Speaker 1: it all up, and then all of a sudden, be
Speaker 1: later in the fall or that winner not eating it,
Speaker 1: and then see how I felt about it. All right,
Speaker 1: how about this one? This is another Luke Ryan Luke
Speaker 1: Ryan's wondered nous You're okay, it's such a complicated two
Speaker 1: part question. And then Yanni like sequestered some of the
Speaker 1: information that I can from the cooking side of things.
Speaker 1: How many times do you try to make some off
Speaker 1: cut taste amazing? I feel like I would have a
Speaker 1: horrible gastro intestinal life for a long time. Yeah, because
Speaker 1: I just keep trying. Oh you'll see when it wore off. Yeah,
Speaker 1: well maybe if I do this. I thought about it.
Speaker 1: I worked for many an outfitter in Colorado, more than one,
Speaker 1: So you can say all that information. Okay, Now I
Speaker 1: have permission to say something I was earlier forbidden from saying.
Speaker 1: But I got it so worked out now that I
Speaker 1: don't need to say. It would be this. A guy's
Speaker 1: wondering this. Luke Ryan puts this out there. You go
Speaker 1: on a guided trip. Okay, you're going to guide a trip,
Speaker 1: and then you're thinking yourself, uh, okay, now what I'm
Speaker 1: gonna do. It's just come back and hunt this exact
Speaker 1: same spot. Now that I know what's up, So your
Speaker 1: book a trip, the guy takes you out, it's like,
Speaker 1: this is my great secret spot, and do the thing
Speaker 1: and the next year, like, see you next year. But
Speaker 1: as an equal, is that immoral? I say yes? Well
Speaker 1: what like? So all the yeses go like yeah. In
Speaker 1: the audience, that was the nose. I have to say yes,
Speaker 1: because you came out of the guiding industry. Well, I
Speaker 1: don't think that's the real reason why. I think I'm
Speaker 1: saying yes, immoral. Yes, I've seen it firsthand, and yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean it's no different than walking in on the
Speaker 1: last final of the year and I grabbed Stephen Ronella's
Speaker 1: final paper off the desk, scratch his name out, put
Speaker 1: my name, Maa. You did all the work, you did
Speaker 1: all the study, and you filled out the test. I
Speaker 1: just put my name on it. Yeah, I want to
Speaker 1: weigh and I say no. I say no. I say
Speaker 1: it's not immoral, not immoral. You paid the guy, you
Speaker 1: know what, that's true. That is a good point. Now,
Speaker 1: if it's your buddy and he takes you to your
Speaker 1: spot his spot, that's an entirely different I don't even
Speaker 1: need to ask that question. That is so immoral that
Speaker 1: I don't need that. Yeah, it goes without saying to
Speaker 1: the buddy, you'd never do that to a buddy. Where
Speaker 1: is the difference you paid them? I think you could
Speaker 1: come up with a prostitution analogy here. So now, okay, okay,
Speaker 1: just to provide a little context here, there's a guy
Speaker 1: that wrecked somehow he realizes where Yeah, a place of
Speaker 1: Janice used to guide. Can I talk about this? And no,
Speaker 1: I realized that all that. I realized that all the
Speaker 1: outits that worked for all had a similar setup where
Speaker 1: we sort of drove through some private property, camps on
Speaker 1: private property, lodged on private property, and then went to
Speaker 1: hunted national forest. The three ouferers that I worked for,
Speaker 1: and again people can just do as much research as
Speaker 1: they want, they all had a very similar setup. So
Speaker 1: you know exactly where this guy was talking about. You know,
Speaker 1: it would be hard to figure out. You have to
Speaker 1: go hunt three different spots that are you know, a
Speaker 1: hundred square miles each and then go, yeah, I know
Speaker 1: we were talking about But anyways, Yeah, so he's got
Speaker 1: But I think how his question was his question makes
Speaker 1: it less morally, makes it more that more that it's
Speaker 1: okay to do this. Yeah, because he wants it right,
Speaker 1: he wants that answer. No, he here's the deal. That's
Speaker 1: why I don't want to get into it. He's got
Speaker 1: body working at this outfitter. So my okay, I'll tell
Speaker 1: his question and then I'll give him my a point.
Speaker 1: He's got buddy's working at this outfitter that have obviously
Speaker 1: opened their mouths and talked about the setup of this location, right,
Speaker 1: so they've gotten this inside information. Now he's asking if
Speaker 1: it's morally okay to use that information to go behind
Speaker 1: these private ranches and basically going hunt these spots that
Speaker 1: these guys are So there's other ways to get in
Speaker 1: there that don't involve going through the private property totally.
Speaker 1: And what he's saying is so he's saying that his
Speaker 1: buddy's screwed up and they lost their tight lippedness and
Speaker 1: they're like, well, wherever really killing these elk is on
Speaker 1: national forest above the ranch that we're based out of.
Speaker 1: So he says, I'll see you up there. They and
Speaker 1: then you take that as a transgression, transgression against your outfitter,
Speaker 1: I think, just against your but well, one of the
Speaker 1: guys messed up for you know, flapping their gums and
Speaker 1: then too. Yeah, it's like, give them a little respect
Speaker 1: if they told you about that spot. It's like where
Speaker 1: they're working, don't go, don't go. How did everybody say
Speaker 1: the other week pissing the pissing the cathedral or no
Speaker 1: baptismal fountains in the baptismal pomp um. So what if
Speaker 1: I mean, look at all the things. If you're going
Speaker 1: with anybody, your buddy outfitter guide, whoever, if they can't
Speaker 1: blend them all together, absolutely don't blend. The thing is,
Speaker 1: if you are going with somebody who has a wealth
Speaker 1: of knowledge about the area, about the animals, aren't you
Speaker 1: take enough away without having to go to the exact spot.
Speaker 1: I'm learning so much when I got out with you,
Speaker 1: like this is the way Steven Renelant, I come away
Speaker 1: with that? Do I have to go in there and
Speaker 1: you know, kick you out of your spot too? But here, No,
Speaker 1: because here's the thing, he's making a claim of ownership.
Speaker 1: You're sort of making a claim of ownership that only
Speaker 1: takes away your right to access. So you're saying, like, sure,
Speaker 1: anyone else is welcome to go here, the whole sixty
Speaker 1: million Americans are welcome to go here, but you can't
Speaker 1: because of how this piece of information came to you.
Speaker 1: So I think it winds up being like a little
Speaker 1: bit like you're sort of getting screwed out of a
Speaker 1: god given right because of the way that a piece
Speaker 1: of information flowed. It's a business train, it's a business transaction.
Speaker 1: You gave the guy money to take you to a
Speaker 1: hunting spot. I mean, if if you, if you, if
Speaker 1: the if the outfitter didn't want you to go in there,
Speaker 1: go in there. It should be part of the contract
Speaker 1: or something. Yeah, moving on, But no, no, no, because
Speaker 1: it brings up the point of going into hunting spots
Speaker 1: that you've never been to you with your body, and
Speaker 1: if you're the kind of guy that might follow up
Speaker 1: with a hunt of your own in that same spot,
Speaker 1: you might want to, you know, bring that up to
Speaker 1: your buddy's taking you into that spot. Well, if I
Speaker 1: ever hired an outfit or would be because I could
Speaker 1: go into the spot, he shoulder. I've done that on
Speaker 1: family vacations. I've done that. We go down somewhere, it's
Speaker 1: hard to figure the fishing out. Yeah, go out like
Speaker 1: hire something with the PONNDA, go out and fish for
Speaker 1: two hours, come back and be like, resume business like more.
Speaker 1: On the way back, you're like, hey, you know where
Speaker 1: I can run a punco exactly? See, I would feel mad,
Speaker 1: So I think sometimes I would just turn down being
Speaker 1: showed or even told about a spot and just go
Speaker 1: there and learn it all my own to have a
Speaker 1: clear conscience about it. With the with the friend thing,
Speaker 1: don't final thought on this with the friends thing, it's
Speaker 1: way different than when a friend takes you somewhere and
Speaker 1: shows you something. You have an obligation. It's at that point,
Speaker 1: it's like it's like sleeping with his wife, and at
Speaker 1: some point if he says, you know what, you just
Speaker 1: go ahead. That's you. Then you have to later call
Speaker 1: back again and be like, Wow, my cousin, right, he's
Speaker 1: in town, he's he'll probably never come back. I have
Speaker 1: anxiety going with dudes two places because I'm like, what
Speaker 1: if I really like it? What am I gonna not
Speaker 1: go back? Yeah? What if it's full of out? It's
Speaker 1: like I'd almost rather like not have to supermanently scratch
Speaker 1: off an entire chunk of the earth and just like
Speaker 1: go find it on my own somehow. Moving on, Joe March,
Speaker 1: over your many years of hunting, what was the most
Speaker 1: common mistake you found yourself making over and over? I
Speaker 1: know exactly right to mine is that I'm putting the
Speaker 1: sneak on something like I've found something, I'm gonna go
Speaker 1: get in on it, and there's something being an animal
Speaker 1: um getting in on I mean I'm gonna, like, you know,
Speaker 1: stalk in on it. Is that I, uh, all of
Speaker 1: a sudden realized that I'm like crawling and going way around.
Speaker 1: And I also realized that I'm just in plain sight
Speaker 1: of the thing because like misreading, like like misreading of
Speaker 1: the laate like because you know, you think, like if
Speaker 1: I really was gonna do this right, I would go
Speaker 1: three miles that way. And you know, but I bet
Speaker 1: I could you know that little rise and that little
Speaker 1: little thing and that brush and you just sort of
Speaker 1: like you're going along and the next thing, you know,
Speaker 1: you're looking like, oh, it's looking at me. It's just
Speaker 1: right there. But I somehow like misread all this stuff.
Speaker 1: That is like it just happens again again again. So
Speaker 1: do you feel like you're misreading the landscape or you
Speaker 1: just trying to take a short cut shortcut short cutty
Speaker 1: like short cutty shitty little short cutting things. It's a gimme,
Speaker 1: it's a gimme being nonchalant. Yeah. Mind. Similar mind is
Speaker 1: that I think I've spooped it, but I haven't start
Speaker 1: like being uncareful because that's gone and then I run
Speaker 1: right into it. Similar I think just moving too fast
Speaker 1: you know. You know, that's why I like going on
Speaker 1: a long haunt, because I feel like it takes three
Speaker 1: or four days until I really start moving at the
Speaker 1: pace of the woods. And I feel like once I
Speaker 1: hit that pace, you know, then all of a sudden,
Speaker 1: games just like doing this in front of me. But
Speaker 1: when you're just when you're I'm moving too fast and
Speaker 1: I'm looking at my toes instead of having my head up,
Speaker 1: you know, taking it all in, I feel like you
Speaker 1: just I'm not seeing the game, not in the zone. Yea,
Speaker 1: yea say it could be indifferent. It's forgetting my long
Speaker 1: handled spoon and get your knuckles full of free It
Speaker 1: will bother me the entire time I'm in the woods.
Speaker 1: He has I know better. Yeah, And you just had
Speaker 1: and there you are with dried cheese stuck to your knuckles. Um,
Speaker 1: do you have any okay, do you have anything profound
Speaker 1: to say about being alone in the wilderness. This is
Speaker 1: from a guy named Bob Dean, who should if he's not,
Speaker 1: he should be in the sausage business. Bob Dean, do
Speaker 1: you have anything profound to say about being alone in
Speaker 1: the wilderness by yourself or in a small group? Being
Speaker 1: completely responsible for your well being without communication or support
Speaker 1: from your society. Society. Dot's say that society. If if
Speaker 1: anybody gets anything, I'll it's gratifying to know it will
Speaker 1: be mean. Since I'm alone, I hope just someone gets something.
Speaker 1: I don't care who it is. Oh, but you're always
Speaker 1: with the llamas. So like in the morning, like you
Speaker 1: look at all Yeah, you look at all that. I mean,
Speaker 1: like somebody's gonna get some today, right, guys. I think
Speaker 1: the thing that that that I've come to like about
Speaker 1: not coming. I think I've always liked about wilderness, and
Speaker 1: there are many of them, and I didn't really think
Speaker 1: to articulate it this way until fairly recently. Um. I
Speaker 1: started riding my bike in Manhattan years ago, and I
Speaker 1: spent a couple of years, about a year riding a
Speaker 1: bike regularly in Manhattan, and I realized that doing it,
Speaker 1: um that there was no room to have any other
Speaker 1: There's no room for any other thought. Okay, so you're
Speaker 1: riding along and you can't be like, man, I should
Speaker 1: call my mom more often. It's like you just can't,
Speaker 1: you know, think about any besides exactly what you're doing,
Speaker 1: because exactly what you're doing, it's so dangerous. You just
Speaker 1: described the yoga class and how they set that up
Speaker 1: and the artificial That's why I don't like it when
Speaker 1: they try to do it to me in yoga, because
Speaker 1: I'm like, it takes a lot more than a bunch
Speaker 1: of us sitting around and comfortable clothes trying to be
Speaker 1: the kind of people who aren't thinking about other stuff.
Speaker 1: I need to be like forced into the situation not
Speaker 1: think about other stuff. And so when riding my bike,
Speaker 1: and like when I was doing a lot of bike
Speaker 1: riding in Manhattan, I was offered thinking about, Wow, it's
Speaker 1: really like I don't get this feeling that often of
Speaker 1: not having any room for any of your thought but
Speaker 1: exactly what I'm doing. And I realized that, like in
Speaker 1: a lot of wilderness experiences now, when you're like laying
Speaker 1: in your bag at night, but just all the things
Speaker 1: that go into it, it winds up being like you're
Speaker 1: forced to for sometimes day is on end. It's just
Speaker 1: like just be focused on this thing because there's so
Speaker 1: many there's so many aspects to it and things that
Speaker 1: keep in mind that you you do loose, you quickly
Speaker 1: lose sight of all the nagging things that are rolling
Speaker 1: around in the back of your head. I think I've
Speaker 1: talked about a fair bit. Is they did this study
Speaker 1: one time where they had people that they paired up
Speaker 1: people and put them in a gymnasium and had them
Speaker 1: throw a ball back and forth. So they break everybody
Speaker 1: up into pairs, and each pair of people has to
Speaker 1: play catch, and there's a there's an observer assigned to
Speaker 1: each pair, and the observer is false to just count
Speaker 1: how many times the ball changes hands. So it's a
Speaker 1: gym full people playing catch and there's people watching them
Speaker 1: play catching comedy times the ball changes hands. And then
Speaker 1: in the middle of this they have a guy in
Speaker 1: a gorilla suit walk through the gym. Later they say,
Speaker 1: like how many times the ball change hands? And you'll
Speaker 1: be like a change hands thirty three times. Do you
Speaker 1: know what's anything unusual? While you were counting the ball
Speaker 1: change hands? Most people don't see the gorilla come through
Speaker 1: the room. And like those are people who are bad
Speaker 1: being in the woods. Those are like those are like
Speaker 1: bad wilderness people and um, and I think it's like
Speaker 1: that you have to just be aware of like what
Speaker 1: you know you need to be aware of, be aware
Speaker 1: of what you're you're not really knowing you need to
Speaker 1: be aware of. But just like spatial awareness is nice.
Speaker 1: Last night at dinner college town, a lot of pretty
Speaker 1: girls walking around. It's not because I don't care about
Speaker 1: what you're saying. I'm just being aware of what's going on.
Speaker 1: And you were wilderness. Um. Yeah, I think it comes
Speaker 1: back to the damage about moving slowly and you know,
Speaker 1: just and and getting to that point where you're just like,
Speaker 1: I think it's all the same thing that we're saying,
Speaker 1: that all other stuff gets out of the way and
Speaker 1: you're so just focused on just being there, and um,
Speaker 1: you get to just experience I think days or time
Speaker 1: or however you want to look at it slower than
Speaker 1: and my regular day of getting up and just like
Speaker 1: jamming and going and cooking and then you know, the
Speaker 1: office totally back again. No. Um, So yeah, I just
Speaker 1: think that that's is good for me, for my head,
Speaker 1: my soul, to just experience that slow pace. Yeah. Absolutely.
Speaker 1: I've been on a few hunts where um, you know,
Speaker 1: the the It's been a number of things, clients guides
Speaker 1: where there's connectivity up on the mountain some and now
Speaker 1: it's worse and worse with um like the iridium go
Speaker 1: there's ways to be connected to the outside world, and
Speaker 1: I truly don't want any of that stuff on any
Speaker 1: hunts anymore because I've noticed, Um I just example, up
Speaker 1: INBC last year or the year before, had this you know,
Speaker 1: awesome weasel encounter. You know, we eaels up there checking
Speaker 1: out and running up and looking at you and just
Speaker 1: kind of doing their very inquisitive, extremely entertaining thing. Only
Speaker 1: person that noticed it because the other two dudes were
Speaker 1: up on their phone because they've got a signal on
Speaker 1: top of some mountain or something. Yeah. Yeah, it takes
Speaker 1: you out of the out of the space. And I
Speaker 1: think more and more as connectivity it becomes, i mean
Speaker 1: almost given in a lot of these areas, you'll always
Speaker 1: have it. We need those those spaces and times to
Speaker 1: disconnect them. Yeah. I went to a lecture by a
Speaker 1: guy that had done solo long distance canoe trips and
Speaker 1: one of what to see him you'd come off of
Speaker 1: just doing the whole Shore Lake Superior, which is months long,
Speaker 1: and he was talking about You're saying, like, you know,
Speaker 1: when you're out in the woods for ten days, how
Speaker 1: everything seems to um be slowing down and becoming quieter
Speaker 1: for ten days, he says, at six once, I haven't
Speaker 1: found the end of that. It's still it's still happening
Speaker 1: six months, in which gives you a sense of how
Speaker 1: wound up we could potentially be. That he hasn't unwrapped.
Speaker 1: He hasn't unraveled the string at six months. So when
Speaker 1: you think you're all kicking ass at ten days, it's
Speaker 1: a tight coil. Man. I remember when you and I
Speaker 1: would go first moved out here and we go hunting
Speaker 1: for four or five days. I remember we'd come out
Speaker 1: and we'd be driving home and like fifty miles would
Speaker 1: feel super fast. Yeah, I know what you're talking about.
Speaker 1: You missed the pacing of things. What happened for me,
Speaker 1: they'll really change. The connectivity thing is after nine eleven
Speaker 1: because you used to go um and didn't care, right
Speaker 1: because I didn't have family or anything. So you went
Speaker 1: to like be like I didn't care what was really
Speaker 1: going on, and then all of a sudden you get
Speaker 1: introduced to this thing that's like that that you could
Speaker 1: have is like instantaneous catacort doesn't make events happened that
Speaker 1: you weren't aware of. And it took me a long
Speaker 1: time to be comfortable totally unconnected for a long time
Speaker 1: because in my mind that happened like that, You're like,
Speaker 1: because you know, you'd be like, well, what could happen?
Speaker 1: What could possibly happen? Then all a sudden you introduced
Speaker 1: this idea that like, oh, like a thing could happen,
Speaker 1: and it nags you that you're out of the loop.
Speaker 1: We went, remember we went hunting the brakes, and it
Speaker 1: was it was in that period, at the beginning of
Speaker 1: that period when the when the Bush gore election, like
Speaker 1: there was it wasn't clear who had won it, and
Speaker 1: we put off the trip for the election night. Then
Speaker 1: we're like, okay, I guess we're just gonna to go
Speaker 1: and not know. Yeah. Yeah, we thought it was gonna
Speaker 1: be like a just a couple of hours delay. It
Speaker 1: turned into what was it event? Ultimately? I want to
Speaker 1: give you a flip side of this though, because something
Speaker 1: I think about quite often now is when I was
Speaker 1: working in the woods, um, you know for the majority
Speaker 1: of my ear and I was, you know, a large
Speaker 1: part because of wanting to be I was disconnected from
Speaker 1: the outside world. I was had very little few thoughts
Speaker 1: running through my head, or at least looking back on it,
Speaker 1: I feel that way now, I feel like I get
Speaker 1: cluttered because I know, like the public land's access issue
Speaker 1: is is something that you know, I'm constantly thinking about
Speaker 1: now and when I going into the woods, I'm staring
Speaker 1: around being like, oh my god, are we really going
Speaker 1: to screw this up? Whereas back before, when I was
Speaker 1: spending way more time in the woods, I never thought
Speaker 1: about any of that stuff because I just truly didn't
Speaker 1: even think about being connected to it. Yeah, you were
Speaker 1: in a global citizen in your old woods many Yeah, Um,
Speaker 1: this guy was this guy's picking up on something, the
Speaker 1: Cody Bomber, who's picking on something up? And I said
Speaker 1: sometimes I was talking about how I know a lot
Speaker 1: of people who are a lot better at hunting than me,
Speaker 1: and um, he's like, what's the difference between yourself and
Speaker 1: the people who are better at it? And I know, Matt,
Speaker 1: you think a lot about Kent Unland being a real
Speaker 1: good Yeah, who's not with us tonight? No, And there's
Speaker 1: a couple other guys in mild City And frankly, I
Speaker 1: don't know if I knew, I just start doing what
Speaker 1: that is. Yeah, you know, I think, Yeah, for me,
Speaker 1: I think it's like when I look at the people.
Speaker 1: I think that the thing that we do to measure
Speaker 1: like good hunting nous would be there. How much is
Speaker 1: someone able to do a lot of times we're looking
Speaker 1: at how much is someone able to do something again
Speaker 1: and again and again and again. So it'll be like, oh,
Speaker 1: you killed you know, in twenty years, he's killed twenty
Speaker 1: bowls with his bow, So that person would would develop
Speaker 1: a certain renown, right, especially when it goes out and
Speaker 1: doesn't like three days. Yes, it's like burning all my
Speaker 1: vacation time. And I find that like, and I find
Speaker 1: that like just because of the details of my life
Speaker 1: I do. I do many, many kinds of things, and
Speaker 1: so I have this like good cursory knowledge of tons
Speaker 1: of ship. But don't focus in on like the thing.
Speaker 1: And when I do, when I look at like a
Speaker 1: really great hunter, I'm looking at someone who can just
Speaker 1: like do the impossible all the time, like some guy
Speaker 1: like you know, hunting in the Midwest on public land
Speaker 1: with the bow, killing nice bucks every year, right, no
Speaker 1: fim permissions. I'm like that to me is like the
Speaker 1: he's doing the impossible, right. Oh, it's it's easy to
Speaker 1: define who the who the you know, good hunter is.
Speaker 1: It's much more difficult to say how he got to
Speaker 1: be that way. But I think that, like when I
Speaker 1: think of the guys that are so much better than me,
Speaker 1: I think it's like people who have picked a thing
Speaker 1: that's difficult and just somehow focused and became like singular
Speaker 1: in their pursuit winds up being the guys that look
Speaker 1: at them like that's amazing. It's not so much that
Speaker 1: someone that's like jumps around hunts every state and hunts
Speaker 1: all around the world and does all these things once.
Speaker 1: It's like the it's the the person with the laser focus,
Speaker 1: but not the laser sight define the good hunter. It's
Speaker 1: just for me dead like somebody that has like something
Speaker 1: that's hard to do um, like killing an elk on
Speaker 1: public lands every year in Montana. I think of that
Speaker 1: with a boat, even with the rifle. But I think
Speaker 1: of that is um. But you've achieved that, not with
Speaker 1: a bowl um generally though, okay, with without using all
Speaker 1: your vacation time. I like it. Yeah, Matt will go.
Speaker 1: You one time went and did twenty one days. I
Speaker 1: routinely go twenty days. Yeah, there's some time card pudging
Speaker 1: that goes into it. Good Aude you forgetting hunt twenty days.
Speaker 1: Like the guys that are better than you, what do
Speaker 1: they do? Like? What makes them better than you? Oh?
Speaker 1: I mean a ton of stuff. I'm I don't feel
Speaker 1: like I'm very good at any of it. I feel
Speaker 1: like I'm still I'm still here. I look up to
Speaker 1: many many people. So I'm just just need more days
Speaker 1: in the woods to hone your skills. I don't think
Speaker 1: that's it for me. I think there's something differentiate differentiates
Speaker 1: like was an excellent hunter fifteen years ago? You know,
Speaker 1: so like I've got way more time in the woods
Speaker 1: now than Kent fifteen years ago. Yeah, you get more
Speaker 1: time in one trip than Yeah, because he doesn't you know,
Speaker 1: he doesn't need to go out very long six cents
Speaker 1: something I would just will drop of something that some
Speaker 1: hunters have and something. Yeah, maybe he doesn't smell. I
Speaker 1: don't know. There's actually something to that man smelling people.
Speaker 1: Um dirt math, if we're right, a powerful he has got,
Speaker 1: he's got a commanding presence. Um. Is there a way
Speaker 1: to stop hunting with someone but still be friends, he says,
Speaker 1: he says, Or is it like uh? Or he says,
Speaker 1: Also it sounds like the hunting equivalent of that girl
Speaker 1: or guy in a relationship up that doesn't want to
Speaker 1: date but still wants to be friends. Can you have
Speaker 1: a hunting buddy that you're just like it just I
Speaker 1: can't And I've had this happen in and I know
Speaker 1: you've had to happen in your life where you're just like,
Speaker 1: I can't help with that guy anymore? Can you still
Speaker 1: like be buddies? Something changes? It becomes hard to be friends, right,
Speaker 1: But I've gone to be an ot seed out of
Speaker 1: the club, out of the club, and it's hard to
Speaker 1: find to still be friends. You know, when you've pulled
Speaker 1: out the love making kel no experiences, man, I think, boy, yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm sure I'm missing a few. But they've they've kind
Speaker 1: of naturally went their own way. Yeah, it happens, man.
Speaker 1: They don't like, they don't like to stop all. They
Speaker 1: don't Their idea of hunting was a lot different um
Speaker 1: those those types of you know, it's more mem No,
Speaker 1: I think that like hunting together, well, no, hunting together
Speaker 1: creates like really tight close friendships. It creates really tight
Speaker 1: close relationships and it winds up it's just different, like
Speaker 1: if you spend a handful of trips with someone. It's
Speaker 1: just it's just you're just different with them. You get
Speaker 1: to a place you don't get to hanging out like
Speaker 1: drinking a beer and and so yeah, the later be like, man,
Speaker 1: I don't want like like, I don't want to go
Speaker 1: out in the woods with you anymore and be with
Speaker 1: you out in the woods anymore because of whatever it
Speaker 1: is about you. You can't you can't be like, but
Speaker 1: let's go get a beer. Yeah, remember that one time
Speaker 1: we went hunting together and then I got sick of you.
Speaker 1: I have I mean, I have buddies that I'll go
Speaker 1: hunt with us and not pack a rifle because that's
Speaker 1: the only way, you know. It's like, yeah, I love
Speaker 1: spending time with you. Get let's go out and I'll
Speaker 1: spot some stuff to call some stuff. But you're not
Speaker 1: gonna hume with him now, all right. So with regard
Speaker 1: to technology, where do you draw the line and what
Speaker 1: this guy is getting at recently is there's uh uh knocks. Now, Okay,
Speaker 1: some guy recently came out of the knock that you're
Speaker 1: putting your ararow that has a tracking device in it
Speaker 1: so you can stick something and and track it using
Speaker 1: GPS technology. So he's talking about knocks, um, and he
Speaker 1: talks about trail cameras. At what point is like, at
Speaker 1: what point does fair chase not exist anymore? And I
Speaker 1: think he's looking for he's looking for an answer. Um.
Speaker 1: I think, uh, Justin bros Bro, Justin Brows is looking
Speaker 1: for like a concrete thing that you just won't do,
Speaker 1: like a demarcation get you. He wants it clean, he
Speaker 1: wants it you can't do that because it's a nuanced thing.
Speaker 1: Like having a knock that tells you where your gut
Speaker 1: shot deer went. That just seems like better living through technology.
Speaker 1: Now this game camera thing you can see where that
Speaker 1: could that's treading on some uh than I want to
Speaker 1: talk about knock and I think it's tie it into
Speaker 1: this what makes a good hunter thing. I would argue
Speaker 1: that the more you lean on technology, the fewer skills
Speaker 1: you actually developed. Like I'd be like, I'm just gonna
Speaker 1: gut shoot it because I got these Knocks's gonna do that. No,
Speaker 1: But he's saying, because you don't have to then track
Speaker 1: the gut shot here and find it without the tracking
Speaker 1: technology that you then don't possess those Okay, but if
Speaker 1: you get a pass through. If you get a pass through,
Speaker 1: it doesn't do anything right. But let's but it's much
Speaker 1: more fun to talk about these sorts of matters pretending
Speaker 1: that it's gonna work good because then it allows you
Speaker 1: to explore that the lighted knock right like lighted you
Speaker 1: brother of the lighted knock, or the friendly brother of
Speaker 1: the lighted knock when it when it passes through, it
Speaker 1: puts out little arms and stays inside. Yeah like that.
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't even like reading books about hunting
Speaker 1: because I feel like I'm gonna grab some chunk of
Speaker 1: knowledge that I haven't actually learned yet and just assume it,
Speaker 1: and that's gonna hurt me in the long run. So
Speaker 1: when it comes to the technology thing, like yeah, I
Speaker 1: have a GPS, but I have a map that I
Speaker 1: use way way, way more. But yeah, but here's five
Speaker 1: thousand years ago people on this continent. We're not using bows. Correct,
Speaker 1: five to seven, they were using the adele addles the
Speaker 1: bow and arrows invented a bunch of different times around Earth.
Speaker 1: So at some point in time, it went from being
Speaker 1: that you were using a spear throwing well, you were
Speaker 1: using a hand throwing spear and then you're using a
Speaker 1: throwing board to get a better spear throw. And then
Speaker 1: all of a sudden, some dude comes rolling over the
Speaker 1: mountain who's got a bow. You're like, that's cool to ship, right, yes,
Speaker 1: So he starts using that, and then you fast forward
Speaker 1: and you have muskets, and then some guy starts besides
Speaker 1: to cut a spiral groove inside of a musket barrel
Speaker 1: and make a rifle. And the people that you were
Speaker 1: using that, like Daniel Boone Hunter with he had a
Speaker 1: rifle barrel. He went into the woods thinking that he
Speaker 1: was using a technologically advanced tool that was leaps and
Speaker 1: bounds ahead of what was available to his father. Get
Speaker 1: what you're doing, it's wrong. You get what I'm doing.
Speaker 1: But it's like, it's just it winds up being a march.
Speaker 1: And I'm gonna play Devil's advocate for a minute here,
Speaker 1: because there are people who in dealing with fair There's
Speaker 1: some like like hunting philosopher types who are dealing with
Speaker 1: fair Chase think that we just need to abandon that
Speaker 1: idea and focus on what they think we should focus
Speaker 1: on is the idea of of fair use. Meaning we're
Speaker 1: dealing with a finite resource. We're gonna need to figure
Speaker 1: out not enforcing and making ethics legal or like this
Speaker 1: is fair not fair? He's like how much pie is
Speaker 1: there to divide up? And then we're gonna need to
Speaker 1: limit our technology is not based on it being fair
Speaker 1: or right or nice. We're gonna need to limit our
Speaker 1: technologies to allow the maximum pool of individuals a chance
Speaker 1: to get a piece of the pie. And it winds
Speaker 1: up being like a you're talking about the same thing,
Speaker 1: but you're approaching in the way that I think is
Speaker 1: like it just almost winds up being easier to think about. So,
Speaker 1: if you're gonna have technologies that are gonna drive efficacy
Speaker 1: through the roots so used to be that are like
Speaker 1: bone arrow like in this state, I could be wrong.
Speaker 1: I think that archery success rates on elk had always
Speaker 1: hovered somewhere between ten and so you could give out
Speaker 1: that many more tags, okay for every elk, Like for
Speaker 1: every elk killed, you could go out and give out
Speaker 1: five tags and give that many people opportunity to go
Speaker 1: and be the figure out who's gonna be the one
Speaker 1: that gets the one elk. Once technology pushes where efficacy
Speaker 1: rates are gonna go so high, where we push it,
Speaker 1: you're they gonna say, Okay, most of you people are
Speaker 1: no longer able to go into the woods because we
Speaker 1: have a limited pool of resources here. Fair use, I
Speaker 1: would say that you are then also going to have
Speaker 1: a very limited amount of people who even want to
Speaker 1: go into the woods because part of okay, access recruitment.
Speaker 1: That's like the biggest issue that we're facing right now.
Speaker 1: And and I use this analogy like the stock and
Speaker 1: it's good for out out here here. Right everybody's got
Speaker 1: a rancher buddy or a friend who's got a rancher
Speaker 1: buddy who's got the stock pond out on their place,
Speaker 1: and it's like, yeah, I want to go fish that
Speaker 1: stock pond. You want to go fish that stock pond.
Speaker 1: Eventually you get to go out. First cast, you catch
Speaker 1: a fish, second cast, you catch a fish, third cast, fourth,
Speaker 1: Eventually you're like, well, I know I can catch a
Speaker 1: fish out here. Very rarely do you ever return to
Speaker 1: that stock pond. Because yeah, but here's the thing I'm
Speaker 1: driving in a lot of what you're driving at where
Speaker 1: he were saying limiting technologies. If if we're we're gonna
Speaker 1: have to we're gonna have to We're gonna have to
Speaker 1: continue to because already limit technologies. You can't jack light, okay,
Speaker 1: or you can't for something jack like frogs. You can't jacklight.
Speaker 1: Deer you can't use you can't use the artificial light
Speaker 1: to find a deer. We're alreadying the practice of limiting technologies.
Speaker 1: What these people are saying, we talk about the fair
Speaker 1: use idea rather than fair chase or ethics are saying, Yes,
Speaker 1: we're gonna limit technologies, but we're not going to frame
Speaker 1: the discussion around telling you what's right and wrong. We're
Speaker 1: gonna limit it to be that we're gonna be able
Speaker 1: to have the maximum number of potential, the maximum number
Speaker 1: of people having potential to extract a resource to maintain
Speaker 1: the best numbers. We're gonna limit efficacy, to limit efficacy,
Speaker 1: We're gonna start ruling out technologies. We're not dictating what's
Speaker 1: right and fair and good. We're just dictating, like, how
Speaker 1: can we maintain maximum engagement with a limited resource. So
Speaker 1: they're getting that way you're getting, but they're not trying
Speaker 1: to like they're just trying to like discuss it in
Speaker 1: the way that doesn't make it seem moral, that doesn't
Speaker 1: make you have to pick between right and wrong. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm a fair user. I would say that you're fair.
Speaker 1: I find myself being in that way because it is
Speaker 1: It's like I do all I have all kinds of
Speaker 1: things that do that weren't available before. And if your
Speaker 1: the measure of morality is was it available before, well,
Speaker 1: the whole damn thing boots. It's like, you know what
Speaker 1: I mean, it gets really tricky, but it's like, you know, obviously,
Speaker 1: terminal tackles a heck of a lot easier, more efficient
Speaker 1: in most cases than fly fishing. I like to fly fish.
Speaker 1: It's a fun thing to do. Some people say it
Speaker 1: limits you that you do. Yeah, uh, but you know
Speaker 1: there's gotta be some you know. I find like anybody
Speaker 1: going into any sport, any activity, they're never going to
Speaker 1: be more passionate about it than when they're learning. And
Speaker 1: if we inject all this stuff that makes it easier
Speaker 1: and easier and easier, you know, I'm like, when are
Speaker 1: we gonna get to the point where it's like I
Speaker 1: can kill a deer off my couch in front of
Speaker 1: my computer, right, and then we're just not gonna have
Speaker 1: people that want to go out in the woods. But
Speaker 1: we're the only like we're the only like like hunters
Speaker 1: are the only type of people. Fishermen too, who really
Speaker 1: are like screwed up about this stuff in sports. They're
Speaker 1: always like making rules and sports and people don't they
Speaker 1: don't turn it into this big like what's right and
Speaker 1: wrong and a big moral dilemma. It's just like we
Speaker 1: agree that for our game to kind of like be
Speaker 1: the way our game is, you can't use that ship, right,
Speaker 1: And everybody's like, like, there's nothing called this hand ringing.
Speaker 1: You know. You got a couple of little girls coming up.
Speaker 1: They're popping some rabbits around the house, not quite yet,
Speaker 1: not quite know. They talk about it a lot, okay,
Speaker 1: sometimes just staying with their mother. Their mother has a
Speaker 1: little cream on their face and they see bunny rabbit
Speaker 1: go by it and they go, Baba, monny rabbit, let's
Speaker 1: kill it. He's like, um, but yeah, not quite yet,
Speaker 1: but go ahead. But I mean, do you want to
Speaker 1: you want to bring them up the way you were
Speaker 1: brought up with that technology or you know, I don't say,
Speaker 1: I don't really care as long as they're in the woods,
Speaker 1: you know, and enjoying it. So yeah, but I'm we've
Speaker 1: been not gonna engage in the hand ring. No, We've
Speaker 1: talked about the fair used thing before, and I think
Speaker 1: it makes a lot of sense. It does. I've never
Speaker 1: heard that before, and I think you're just gonna get
Speaker 1: more people, you know, the of of different mindsets to
Speaker 1: sort of converge and be like, yeah, we can all
Speaker 1: agree upon that because we all want opportunity. We all
Speaker 1: want to hunt every year, and for me to hunt
Speaker 1: every year and everybody else that wants the hunt every year,
Speaker 1: we're gonna have to limit how we do it and
Speaker 1: our success rates. Okay, how do you cope with the brutality?
Speaker 1: This one guy named Dave Smith, who would be hard
Speaker 1: to look up on Facebook with that name, Dave Smith says,
Speaker 1: how do you cope with the brutality of mother nature
Speaker 1: and its food chain? I find the wolves and bears
Speaker 1: to be bullies of the animal world as they strive
Speaker 1: to kill the young and helpless. Maybe I'm becoming too
Speaker 1: soft for the sport or I'm not gonna read it
Speaker 1: because I don't want to be associated with that kind
Speaker 1: of thinking. Um, maybe I'm becoming too soft for the sport.
Speaker 1: Wondering if anyone else feels the same and becomes upset
Speaker 1: because you're unable to help a young animal live another day.
Speaker 1: Would you rather see the yearly become a good age
Speaker 1: rather than a bear or wolf pull it away and
Speaker 1: shred at to pieces while it remains breathing? He really
Speaker 1: liked its just just yeah, if you say where he
Speaker 1: wants you to go mercilessly ripping it while it's screams
Speaker 1: an egg and he I mean, I don't know, how
Speaker 1: do you feel about to have? You know? I always
Speaker 1: when I see a predator prey interaction, I am damn
Speaker 1: sure always rooting for the predator. Oh, I'm always rooting
Speaker 1: for the prey, like when you watch the prey. Yeah,
Speaker 1: like when you want on TV tvie, like if you're
Speaker 1: watching like in your motel room, like you know, Cheetah
Speaker 1: going after a baby gazelle or something. I'm definitely rooting
Speaker 1: for the gazelle. But no, he's not in real life.
Speaker 1: A break. Okay, I'll remember this, I'll remember this the
Speaker 1: day I die. We were Do you remember when we
Speaker 1: took the writer Ian Fraser on his first deer hunt?
Speaker 1: Okay again, we talked about the breaks that we're in
Speaker 1: the Missouri breaks we're in the area with all the
Speaker 1: White cliffs, and it's called the White Cliffs area. Looking
Speaker 1: at all that area with Ian Fraser, who is full,
Speaker 1: he's very nervous about what he knows is bound to
Speaker 1: happen on this hunt, that the blood could very well
Speaker 1: be shed by his hands. And I remember we're floating
Speaker 1: along in pigeons what you're called rock doves. Where they're from,
Speaker 1: where their you know, their native range in Eurasia. There's
Speaker 1: a bunch of pigeons stood up in the cracks and
Speaker 1: the White Cliffs, and there's a redtail hawk. Oh, I
Speaker 1: would be rooting for the Hall. Yeah, working work in
Speaker 1: the area over the cliffs, and the pigeons were real
Speaker 1: nervous about getting out too far from the cliffs. And
Speaker 1: I remember, and this was well over a decade ago,
Speaker 1: this was in two thousand, seventeen years ago. I remember
Speaker 1: exactly what you said. I remember the look on his
Speaker 1: face because you said, man, I hope that thing comes
Speaker 1: down and bitch slaps one of those pigeons. And and
Speaker 1: it was like it was like an epiphany. It was
Speaker 1: like a thing went off in Ian Fraser's mind of
Speaker 1: being like like a sudden awareness of a way that
Speaker 1: one could view nature, and I think it like changed
Speaker 1: him forever, Like the look on his face, and it
Speaker 1: was like a kind of a laugh, kind of a revelation.
Speaker 1: It was kind of like someone saying if someone came
Speaker 1: down and said to you, like, you know what you
Speaker 1: know when you die? That really is that, you'd be like, jeez,
Speaker 1: really yeah, so I know you route right, it's apparently
Speaker 1: as case specific because yeah, all right, there's nothing sadder.
Speaker 1: And you know, it's like it's weird too as a
Speaker 1: hunter to say things like this and realize that you
Speaker 1: think things like this. But to me, there's just's nothing
Speaker 1: sadder than an offspring being separated from its mind. You
Speaker 1: a love offspring being separated from their moms. It is sad,
Speaker 1: I though. That makes me laugh. It just makes me
Speaker 1: so uncomfortable, I know, but it's just true. Man Yny
Speaker 1: prayer Man, predator man. When I'm watching BBCNE why you
Speaker 1: guys can talk about television. It's like, you guys spend
Speaker 1: an enormous amount of time outside. Yeah, but how many
Speaker 1: times how often you actually see something kills something? That's
Speaker 1: what I'm saying, are you rooting for it to happen
Speaker 1: or not? When I'm watching. No matter what I'm watching,
Speaker 1: I'm always like i'm watching. If I'm watching the Bear,
Speaker 1: I'm like always hopeful that all of a sudden he's
Speaker 1: just gonna rampage into something and tear at the piece.
Speaker 1: Can I read between I just like, I'm like always
Speaker 1: hoping if I'm watching, I'm in the best case scenario
Speaker 1: in the question for a minute, you want to read
Speaker 1: what he actually No, no, no, I just want to
Speaker 1: read between the lines. I think, don't you think that
Speaker 1: he's saying we got to get rid of all the
Speaker 1: wolves and stuff? He's an aunt. I believe that he might.
Speaker 1: And I can say this name Smith because who in
Speaker 1: the world is gonna find Dave Smith. I think Dave
Speaker 1: Smith might be an anti predator guy. Yeah, I mean,
Speaker 1: and that's where and he's like, I'm an anti predator guy.
Speaker 1: I don't want to just come right out and say that,
Speaker 1: So I'll talk about the brutality with how which they kill.
Speaker 1: I'm not picking sides. I'm rooting for the interaction that happened,
Speaker 1: and I'm just like happy to sit there and watch
Speaker 1: and enjoy the observation whatever whatever you know, happens. Sometimes
Speaker 1: if you're watching one of them, uh documentaries, and and
Speaker 1: the lion looks all scraggly and super hungry. Then I
Speaker 1: start rooting for good boy. I am with you, honest
Speaker 1: completely here, Like every time I've seen something big or small,
Speaker 1: I am just in awe of you know, just by somehow,
Speaker 1: some crazy set of circumstance being in that small area
Speaker 1: of the entire freaking planet that this is happening, and
Speaker 1: it just magically happens in front of me. Like I
Speaker 1: can't get my head around from that to be like,
Speaker 1: you know, I'm team squirrel on this one. You know,
Speaker 1: it's like it's just an amazing You're not like in
Speaker 1: a position to Yeah, that'd be like, hold on YouTube,
Speaker 1: can't we work this out? Yeah? And I mean there
Speaker 1: are no bullies of the animal, like they're just doing
Speaker 1: what they do. Yeah, I got you. This is kind
Speaker 1: of in the same vein. Someone says, Uh, they have
Speaker 1: a three year old daughter. No, three year old. I
Speaker 1: don't know if the boy or girl. Um. He started
Speaker 1: exploring what what is a girl? He started exposing her
Speaker 1: to the concept and outcomes of hunting and fishing as
Speaker 1: a source of food. He says, she helps and he
Speaker 1: throws that in quotes, and I know exactly what those
Speaker 1: quotes I mean. She helps me portion in package primal
Speaker 1: cuts of game, and again she helps clean and flay fish.
Speaker 1: She knows that the food we eat is deer and
Speaker 1: fish and turkey. But I have not exposed her to
Speaker 1: the more gruesome tableau. I like this guy to the
Speaker 1: more gruesome tableau of killing or skinning an animal for
Speaker 1: fear of painting her nightmares. This is good, Jonathan Ingram,
Speaker 1: It's really good read on. But I have not exposed
Speaker 1: her to the more gruesome tableau of killing or skinning
Speaker 1: an animal for fear of painting her nightmares. What are
Speaker 1: your thoughts on how best to expose our kids to
Speaker 1: these things without pushing them into the opposite polar extreme.
Speaker 1: Obviously every kid is different, but general thoughts would be appreciated.
Speaker 1: These guys have never bred a woman, which I pointed
Speaker 1: out before, so they're not like even kind of I'm
Speaker 1: just gonna turn slightly this one, but I can simulate
Speaker 1: it really good success. Never successfully bred. Um, it turned
Speaker 1: slightly towards honest. Uh. I get this a lot, and
Speaker 1: I think that there's a real um. There's like a
Speaker 1: lot of trepidation with parents that I think maybe didn't
Speaker 1: exist before, where parents are really worried about exposing kids
Speaker 1: to violence. I like that. I think that he really
Speaker 1: is getting at he doesn't want to ruin it later
Speaker 1: by over pushing now. But in addition to his concerns,
Speaker 1: I think it's a real concern where parents feel that
Speaker 1: like hunting is violent, it's a violent act. Can't get
Speaker 1: around it, um and limiting kids exposure to violence, I
Speaker 1: think towards this idea that like, uh, they're not going
Speaker 1: to become violent people like human They're not gonna pick
Speaker 1: up like human on human violence. I've evenen countered where
Speaker 1: at of people who think that their kids, like seeing
Speaker 1: a firearm is somehow going to push him in that direction,
Speaker 1: like that the only thing separating their kid from becoming
Speaker 1: a sociopath is that they haven't seen a gun yet.
Speaker 1: And I always like to think there's a little bit
Speaker 1: more holding my kids back on that end. Um. But yeah,
Speaker 1: I think there's a lot of fear around this. What
Speaker 1: like what have you as you've dealt with it with
Speaker 1: your daughters, and I know that they've seen a lot
Speaker 1: of the tableau. I think you can do a lot
Speaker 1: worse with just what's out there on television. Um, yeah,
Speaker 1: I guess television mostly in just general media for scaring
Speaker 1: your kids away from whatever it is. You don't want
Speaker 1: him to be a you know, scared of you know,
Speaker 1: I mean if he's talking about actually like painting nightmares, Like,
Speaker 1: I don't think it's gonna come from cutting a chicken's
Speaker 1: head off or gutting a deer, but it will come from, um,
Speaker 1: you know something like my kids are are seriously scared of.
Speaker 1: I don't even know the name of the movie. What's
Speaker 1: someone with a little um yellow characters. There's thousands of
Speaker 1: them minions. Yeah, they watch that ship and they are scared.
Speaker 1: They don't know what's going on. It's it's the stuff
Speaker 1: moving fast, every dire action and when you're not used
Speaker 1: to that. There's a lot of violence for a kid's
Speaker 1: movie in there, and I think a lot more there
Speaker 1: than us at homes, like slapsticky violence. Yeah, I think
Speaker 1: if you watch it with the critical yeah, yeah, but
Speaker 1: still again, stuff they're not used to because they just
Speaker 1: don't watch that kind of stuff at home, you know. Um,
Speaker 1: you're just interject quickly, please, So I think that there
Speaker 1: that a lot of this is just in eight in
Speaker 1: kids like some of them. I have friends whose kids
Speaker 1: you need to look at the kid and be like
Speaker 1: that kid ain't gonna hunt. Yeah yeah. And then you
Speaker 1: got people kids on the other end of the extreme
Speaker 1: and were just at the cabin and you know that
Speaker 1: Matt our good friend, Matt Drost, and his daughter was there,
Speaker 1: his eleven year old daughter. She would catch an octopus
Speaker 1: in one of the crap and one of the shrimp pots,
Speaker 1: and she's playing with this thing. It's stickers are hanging
Speaker 1: off and crawling them, and she plays with it for
Speaker 1: a half hour and then just takes a knife. She
Speaker 1: lives with the reality she was brought up with that though,
Speaker 1: I'm guessing right, are trying to make their nine hunting
Speaker 1: kids in the hunt in the hunters, and they're exposing
Speaker 1: him to all of it. But it's just not catching eye. Sure,
Speaker 1: you know, you know there's two the interesting things. Uh.
Speaker 1: The thing like we're always like tripped up that we're
Speaker 1: in this like now as a society, we've arrived at
Speaker 1: these things that other people weren't dealing with. But Francis,
Speaker 1: there's a historian and the nineteenth century historian Frances Apartment
Speaker 1: and Frances Apartment wrote at the time like the definitive
Speaker 1: history of the French and Indian War. And he was
Speaker 1: asthmatic and was sent by his doctors like you need
Speaker 1: to go out west. In eighty six. He comes out
Speaker 1: west and visits the Black Hills of South Dakota in
Speaker 1: eighteen forty six. And now it's believed that it's his
Speaker 1: Partment was probably in the same Iglala Sioux camp that
Speaker 1: Crazy Horse is probably thirteen or fourteen years old, and
Speaker 1: that he was traveling with Crazy Horse, and he would
Speaker 1: describe how joyfully the Sioux children would torment everything that
Speaker 1: they found that was alive with toy Bow's just it
Speaker 1: was just like if it moved, you went after with
Speaker 1: your toy bow. And he took it to be that
Speaker 1: it was just like a training thing. And there's a
Speaker 1: documentary it's about First Contact groups in South First Contact
Speaker 1: groups in the Brazilian rainforest and the kids in those communities.
Speaker 1: You were brought up to bring stuff home and jab
Speaker 1: it and jab every little thing you can find. It's
Speaker 1: so I think now like when we look at now,
Speaker 1: if I look at my kids and my kids like
Speaker 1: he's very aware of hunting, really interested hunting. I mean
Speaker 1: all three of them are, but the oldest one is more.
Speaker 1: He just puts a lot more to get other because
Speaker 1: he's older. Um, he has this thing now where's like
Speaker 1: he knows we hunt, He's done some hunting. He's the
Speaker 1: hunted small game. He sees it, he wants to get it.
Speaker 1: And you might be like, oh, you know we've created
Speaker 1: this demon. Well I don't know, like are you criticizing
Speaker 1: all those like all all those other cultures who cultivated
Speaker 1: that and children like you're gonna learn the skill set.
Speaker 1: You're gonna learn the skill set this way, you know,
Speaker 1: Like as much as we would disapprove it, Now, what
Speaker 1: do we do when we were kids? Oh we had that?
Speaker 1: What do we hunt? The mode of being a kid
Speaker 1: that you just described, where do we hunted? Chip? If
Speaker 1: there's a lower chamber and hell for people that wantingly kill?
Speaker 1: Roads were just like it was like you wanted to hunt.
Speaker 1: And it's like all the other stuff that later gets
Speaker 1: piled on top of that, all the all the ideas
Speaker 1: of of of use and ethics and a suff at
Speaker 1: the time, it's just not there at times, like there's
Speaker 1: certain people who just want to engage in the activity
Speaker 1: and learn it now, that's how you learned it. Later,
Speaker 1: you learn all the things that make it what it is.
Speaker 1: So I don't think it's necessarily like, I don't think
Speaker 1: it's I don't view it as a thing I need
Speaker 1: to shield my children from. There are things that they like.
Speaker 1: Like you saw my boy for whatever reason you he
Speaker 1: doesn't like to see c cucumbers get hard. Same kid
Speaker 1: that will go down to the ocean collect all kinds
Speaker 1: of eels and little fish and put them in a
Speaker 1: bucket to suffocate overnight. And you're like, hey, man, let's
Speaker 1: let these we're gonna die. And he's like, but but
Speaker 1: a seagull or I'm sorry, a c cucumber. He wept
Speaker 1: over the death of the c c cumber. So I
Speaker 1: don't know. I don't run around spending a ton of
Speaker 1: time like thinking that there's something wrong with what seems
Speaker 1: to be like really natural things about my kids. And
Speaker 1: I do put a ton of weight on what were
Speaker 1: my experiences and what are the experiences of the people
Speaker 1: that I love and associate with the most, and the
Speaker 1: people that I have sciate with the most and that
Speaker 1: I love the most. Grew up around catching fish, cutting
Speaker 1: them up and cleaning them, shooting squirrels, cutting up and
Speaker 1: cleaning them. And they turned into like, despite all of it,
Speaker 1: turned into like the most stellar individuals that I've found
Speaker 1: on the face of the planet. So I'm just not
Speaker 1: gonna now like buy into this idea that we need
Speaker 1: to question it all. Yeah. We took some folks into
Speaker 1: the frank Church Wildern a couple of weeks ago. Um,
Speaker 1: one of which was a pscytarian that had never killed
Speaker 1: her own fish, so he took care of that. And
Speaker 1: another gal who had never caught or killed the fish.
Speaker 1: But can you explained that? So she was just eating fish,
Speaker 1: not eating it was the only protein. Yeah. And and
Speaker 1: this is because I put out a big spread for
Speaker 1: the first night, the only animal protein. Yeah, only animal protein. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And I took it to me and like, oh, you
Speaker 1: just don't like process food. It was like I got moves,
Speaker 1: I got all the and it was sweet, but it
Speaker 1: was like, no, I can eat none of that. That's
Speaker 1: where the last silver salmon of the year came in.
Speaker 1: But so it was an amazing, amazing thing. And these
Speaker 1: gals are in their mid thirties. Um caught their first fish,
Speaker 1: killed their first fish with shaking hands, coached them through
Speaker 1: cleaning these trout and that that was very tough. But
Speaker 1: I have opened up the stomach contents and look at
Speaker 1: stuff and that actually made things better by turning into
Speaker 1: a little bit more of a science project. So that
Speaker 1: might be a good tip for this fellow. But I
Speaker 1: have women are vicious. Yeah, they're crazy. There is something
Speaker 1: in the brain that when they know they can provide it.
Speaker 1: I've seen it before and on this trip was no different.
Speaker 1: Once these gals had caught, cleaned, cooked on the campfire
Speaker 1: and eating their own fish and actually shared the fish
Speaker 1: with others, there's no doubt in my mind they would
Speaker 1: have sat there and cleaned that lake out, like to
Speaker 1: the point, hey, we've caught enough fish where you you said,
Speaker 1: like you basically said, you know, it is okay for
Speaker 1: there to be some brutality in your life. Yes, and
Speaker 1: it was this quick and actually for yourself and it's food,
Speaker 1: and oh I can aid it. You know, the whole process,
Speaker 1: they're like, oh, out of the lake, into the fire food.
Speaker 1: They would not have stopped. They were had to be forcefully,
Speaker 1: forcefully removed from the lake. I knew a follow up
Speaker 1: because what I do worry about, I'd like to hear.
Speaker 1: Your take is that I don't because I don't worry about,
Speaker 1: you know, painting their nightmares with deer gut guts and blood.
Speaker 1: But I do worry about pushing it too hard. And
Speaker 1: then we have and has a couple of friends that
Speaker 1: have you know, adult kids now that aren't really hunters
Speaker 1: a few days a year and because it got shoved
Speaker 1: down there. Yeah, they just were pushed too hard as youngsters.
Speaker 1: And so I do worry about that more and really
Speaker 1: try to you know, balance it out with you know,
Speaker 1: dance class and um, you know, other things a little
Speaker 1: girls like, and then we have hunting and fishing, you know,
Speaker 1: and I try to really balance it and so and
Speaker 1: not jam it down their throat. Yeah, I think about that,
Speaker 1: and I know people say it and I've even said
Speaker 1: it before, but I feel like, um, I kind of
Speaker 1: view like with our kids, I'm like, they're either gonna
Speaker 1: be let's do this full balls or not, you know.
Speaker 1: And so I haven't really worried that much about being
Speaker 1: really careful about like, oh, you know, we're gonna be
Speaker 1: on the water an hour and if you want to stay,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna get you office. I don't want to burn
Speaker 1: you out. I just haven't thought about it, like I
Speaker 1: know people say it, but I've pushed him because I
Speaker 1: think a big thing that I want to expose them
Speaker 1: to through hunting and fishing is I want to expose
Speaker 1: them new ideas about like being comfortable being uncomfortable, okay,
Speaker 1: So like getting used to the idea that when you're uncomfortable,
Speaker 1: you're still okay, that when your board you're still okay.
Speaker 1: That these are things that that that lead to other things,
Speaker 1: right that there's like you you pass through this and
Speaker 1: come out the other side and it's like more amazing
Speaker 1: than anything you could have imagined. So if I just
Speaker 1: went up and set it up that everything was like
Speaker 1: this like really easy time, not only the thing you
Speaker 1: want to make it like an always like a success
Speaker 1: are always an easy time. But you know, not hunting fish,
Speaker 1: you know, twenty one days in a row. You know,
Speaker 1: I got what you're saying, Like, yeah, okay, that you're
Speaker 1: only reading only read hunting stories at night, you know,
Speaker 1: throw out you know, no more James and Giant Peach
Speaker 1: would just read about Yeah no, no, I am sensitive
Speaker 1: that I thought you were saying something different. I am
Speaker 1: sensitive to that, like like I do really want well
Speaker 1: rounded and it's like in my setup, in my way,
Speaker 1: my life structure, I can't escape the well rounded nous
Speaker 1: I don't have. We're not like in a place and
Speaker 1: sort of in a professional space where we could just
Speaker 1: do that one thing all the time. I think, like,
Speaker 1: I think we get a lot of that. That I've
Speaker 1: gotten a lot of uh mileage out of is that
Speaker 1: hunting and fishing has really opened up a lot of
Speaker 1: conversations and gives you a template to discuss a lot
Speaker 1: of things that are otherwise very difficult to discuss. I
Speaker 1: remember we're cleaning perch with my boy this he's seven
Speaker 1: now four or five. We're cleaning perch and we're looking
Speaker 1: at I don't know, we're flaying pink Sam sorry, we're
Speaker 1: looking at eggs, like like sperm sacks and eggs, and
Speaker 1: I'm like yo, uh and he and I was explaining.
Speaker 1: I'm like, she like she lays him out on the
Speaker 1: rocks on the bottom of the river and he comes
Speaker 1: in and just sprays the milk or semen on those
Speaker 1: eggs and that's how it's fertilized. And it was like
Speaker 1: it just took a second for him to think that
Speaker 1: that delivery mechanism would not work with human beings. And
Speaker 1: I then I had like then I explained him, like
Speaker 1: the difference, Right, there's the other way of delivering the
Speaker 1: sperm more directly to the egg. And the next day
Speaker 1: he may you can explain that to Ryan and me. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I keep I keep needing to change where I'm aiming,
Speaker 1: so I'm not gott aim back this lay you gotta
Speaker 1: he got a packer, uh he um. The next day.
Speaker 1: I the next day I overhear him He's explained this
Speaker 1: to his nanny and he says, and my mom did
Speaker 1: that three times, So it does. Yeah, this gives you, like,
Speaker 1: like I think, but everything man like set. You know,
Speaker 1: it's like the like sex and death right like death,
Speaker 1: sex violence. It just get gets you in a way
Speaker 1: of it just like opens up all this way to
Speaker 1: have all these conversations and that just like based off
Speaker 1: like books you read. You're like looking at like actual
Speaker 1: real ship on the land or on the ground or
Speaker 1: in the water, and you're talking about like real things
Speaker 1: that have major implications. So if there is some added
Speaker 1: risk that you're gonna raise a socio path because you
Speaker 1: guys went and flay to perch. I don't know. Um,
Speaker 1: I just don't think it's a real issue. I'm done.
Speaker 1: What was that? I mean, everybody tracking, anybody have like
Speaker 1: a big like a thing they need to add. Question
Speaker 1: everyone's tracking, Go ahead, what is the thing you gotta add?
Speaker 1: What is each of your favorite animals done? All type
Speaker 1: of game animal? You look at that, honey? Nothing really
Speaker 1: Now I'm just thinking if you should give him hell
Speaker 1: or not for asking that question. Man, I know what
Speaker 1: yours is. Well, it's just a difficult questions because there's
Speaker 1: like elcohol, which is just not fun. But it's like
Speaker 1: what I do most of the time, but you recognize
Speaker 1: it just yeah, it's a vision quest. It's not intended
Speaker 1: to be enjoyable, but just pure enjoyment like squirrels probably
Speaker 1: just as like having fun. Yeah. Yeah, for me, it
Speaker 1: used to be like I after having done it a
Speaker 1: handful of times, it was doll sheet, But now I
Speaker 1: think that, like, um, I really I just really enjoy
Speaker 1: hunting mule deer because I like to spend a lot
Speaker 1: of time sitting up on a glass and tip just watching.
Speaker 1: It's like, yeah, it's like a pretty like there's a
Speaker 1: lot of opera tunity There's a lot of opportunities in
Speaker 1: a lot of places, and I just like to I
Speaker 1: just I like those days where the day just passes
Speaker 1: and you just observe you and Mule, You're like really
Speaker 1: lends itself to that you're kind of being most constructive,
Speaker 1: sometimes being most constructive by just not doing anything, just watching, watching, watching.
Speaker 1: So yeah, dear mules, spotting it before your buddy, what's
Speaker 1: all about? When I had dogs, I would have traded
Speaker 1: anything for bird hunting. Um the Yeah, I don't. I mean,
Speaker 1: I truly enjoy it all. It's very, very tough, but yeah,
Speaker 1: mule there is is absolutely my most favorite thing in
Speaker 1: the world. When I'm hunting mule here, It's not like
Speaker 1: I'm everythinking about being some other place. Uh, but I
Speaker 1: love calling things an you know, duck, skies, elk deer
Speaker 1: or whatever. So uh, that's answer everything. Yeah, give me,
Speaker 1: give me a lot of vacation time and I'll fill it.
Speaker 1: Buglin bulls for sure. Really, that's real precise. I like
Speaker 1: that you're uh, what are your thoughts on hunting? This
Speaker 1: guy has a lot of questions. I feel like you
Speaker 1: go a little bit of axtagrind justin burden maybe, I
Speaker 1: mean not a bad way. What are your thoughts on hunting? Uh?
Speaker 1: He points out white tailed deer in the preserve, so
Speaker 1: he's talked about it was like animals raise in the
Speaker 1: pen raise environment, like high wired deer hunt. Yeah, what
Speaker 1: are your thoughts on that they're hunting fenced up animals?
Speaker 1: For me, I'd like i'd put it more on the
Speaker 1: grocery side of things, on the hunting side of things. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's it's called farming. Like, yeah, I mean that's that's
Speaker 1: the only problem I have with is the confusion they're
Speaker 1: creating with farming and hunting. But there's that there's the
Speaker 1: added level of then of that they are in. Like
Speaker 1: the action is very similar, right, you just like go
Speaker 1: and kill this farm race thing. But then in post
Speaker 1: when it's consumed or talked about, the farm animal remains
Speaker 1: the farm animal and it's just eating. But the supposed
Speaker 1: hunted behind high fence animal sort of might have this
Speaker 1: that dude as a tool if he tries to be
Speaker 1: like yeah, and there, I knew there was a fence
Speaker 1: just a little ways down. That's what I'm saying is
Speaker 1: that's it's it's it is the same, and it's not
Speaker 1: the same, So it might even be worse somehow. It's
Speaker 1: like morally worse, worse than farming. But you have farm
Speaker 1: animals on your property and I've gone on with you
Speaker 1: and shot him to head of the twenty two lambs.
Speaker 1: It's just for me, it's like, there's no confusion between
Speaker 1: the right. We're talking about a situation here now that
Speaker 1: has all the trappings of hunting, but it's not hunting.
Speaker 1: But I don't get confused by it. There's a fence,
Speaker 1: but why do people why do people like could create
Speaker 1: the confusion? Yeah, I don't know. Well, then you can
Speaker 1: blow this thing way up right and you talk about
Speaker 1: South Africa and it's like, well, yeah, but it's twenty
Speaker 1: anchors fenced, right, But is that the I mean, that's
Speaker 1: not really question right. I don't know. It's an enormous
Speaker 1: gray area. I I put it the gym pose with
Speaker 1: who's like a like a kind of hunting philosopher. I
Speaker 1: put the question about it to him, and I was
Speaker 1: pointing it to him where I was saying, like, no
Speaker 1: one would say that you're bad if you raise sheep
Speaker 1: in a pen and shoot sheep and eat them. There's
Speaker 1: nothing like there's no ethical. That's the ethically wrong. That's
Speaker 1: just how we get me. It's like farming right ethically
Speaker 1: a okay, But why do when when a guy raises
Speaker 1: up a deer, puts camouflage clothes on, goes through some
Speaker 1: of these sort of like some of it, goes adopts
Speaker 1: many of the trappings of hunting, shoots the pander, and
Speaker 1: then positions it as being that he hunted it. Like
Speaker 1: why does that feel wrong? Like? Why does that feel wrong?
Speaker 1: But I don't think it's wrong. I don't think any
Speaker 1: of it of his unethical. It's all the first part
Speaker 1: of it that's all his own business. And then the
Speaker 1: last part where he reacts like he hunted it, that's
Speaker 1: just annoying. I don't think if it as an ethical issue,
Speaker 1: yeah not yeah not. But but he had a really
Speaker 1: interesting point about the business positives at an interesting point
Speaker 1: about the business of selling wild animals. So where you
Speaker 1: take wild animals, raise them in a captive environment, and
Speaker 1: then sell hunts for those wild animals. What he doesn't
Speaker 1: like about it, and he's not he doesn't pass the
Speaker 1: moral judge. He says, there's many ways to get meat, okay,
Speaker 1: But what he doesn't like about it and he and
Speaker 1: he put it and it was the kind of the
Speaker 1: most interesting take on it that I've ever heard, is
Speaker 1: positives pointed out, it's like what they're selling, they're selling
Speaker 1: the idea of a wild animal, Like the animal that
Speaker 1: you've gotten defence only has value because it is it
Speaker 1: still is brings to mind or is associative of wild animals.
Speaker 1: People don't pay to come shoot steers. So when you
Speaker 1: sell the opportunity come shoot a deer, saying like, I'm
Speaker 1: taking a thing of that that has value because of
Speaker 1: the real version that we've made a moral financial commitment
Speaker 1: to have wild life and it's created value for this animal.
Speaker 1: I'm taking that thing of value, putting it in an
Speaker 1: artificial sense and capitalizing on the value that wildness has
Speaker 1: created to sell to you. And that's that's where he
Speaker 1: finds the offensiveness is like the sort of false marketing
Speaker 1: that's going on there. But it's kind of a victimless crime.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's like you're only just it's just mental masturbation.
Speaker 1: If a guy wants to do it, it's not hurting
Speaker 1: anymore until you begin to look at and this is
Speaker 1: the point that heat again, if you were to put
Speaker 1: this to gym posits. It's a victimless crime until you
Speaker 1: get to look at issues of disease transmission, which is
Speaker 1: becoming a major issue with captive deal. So here you're
Speaker 1: in a situation where you're taking the essence of wildness
Speaker 1: selling that to someone in a situation that is threatening
Speaker 1: the existence of the side of wildness that we're all
Speaker 1: acknowledging we value anyways, by creating a fake version inside
Speaker 1: for sale. Couldn't agree more. Essence of wildness should be
Speaker 1: a meat eater branded cologne. All right, we're out of time. Oh,
Speaker 1: I was curious the last podcast came out and I
Speaker 1: didn't I've had a chance stop issue a question, Gin,
Speaker 1: But when you're on an unlimited chief hunt, you gotta
Speaker 1: check into the quota, right, And I've answered the question
Speaker 1: for myself, but you didn't answer it on the podcast.
Speaker 1: How do you see if the quota has been felt?
Speaker 1: Where those two go or two sheep shot and you
Speaker 1: gotta have a radio? Is that right? And then they
Speaker 1: put that out at noon? How's that? Oh? That's interesting questions? So, uh,
Speaker 1: he's referring to that there are and it's not just
Speaker 1: the unlimited Chief units. There are a lot of hunts
Speaker 1: where they'll have a unit. There's BlackBerry units like this
Speaker 1: and all kinds of areas where they have like a
Speaker 1: minimum um, they have a maximum mortality threshold that they're
Speaker 1: going to achieve in a population, and so sometimes it's
Speaker 1: limited to females, like like you might have a Mountain
Speaker 1: lion unit where they're they have a maximum female mortality
Speaker 1: threshold of three. So the season's gonna stay open until
Speaker 1: they hit that cap. And in those situations where you're
Speaker 1: hunting in one of those units, you need to stay
Speaker 1: apprized whether the season is still open, and they'll usually
Speaker 1: make it that they're gonna be like that. It closes
Speaker 1: on forty eight hour notice, so someone kills the third female.
Speaker 1: Let's say they'll put out a notice and you have
Speaker 1: forty eight hours. Let's say you're on a ten day
Speaker 1: hunting trip. Um, how do you know? And you either
Speaker 1: you gotta make a phone call, so you either walk
Speaker 1: out and you know, go to a pay phone like
Speaker 1: in the old days or now a lot of people
Speaker 1: carry satellite phones, or you time or you time your
Speaker 1: thing out where you know that like you can check
Speaker 1: it at the trailhead and it's still open, so you
Speaker 1: know that you have at least forty eight hours and
Speaker 1: then you need to recheck again. But you have it's
Speaker 1: your respect in those like quota system things that your
Speaker 1: responsibility be constantly checking in to make sure the quota
Speaker 1: threshold has been met. I don't Pete munic. Pete Mutick
Speaker 1: yelled out, is it sat phone? Pete didn't come left?
Speaker 1: Is Kurt here? It is the hunter's responsibility at a
Speaker 1: radio station that would you know? You bought your little
Speaker 1: radio and they play it at say or whatever time.
Speaker 1: That's what I read. I was just curious. Yeah, no,
Speaker 1: I'd like to get hear from Kurt, but he's dead.
Speaker 1: Um Matt concluding thoughts, oh Man woll that was kind
Speaker 1: of a conversation, stopper. I came in har enjoy I
Speaker 1: enjoyed chatting with you all in front of a bunch
Speaker 1: of people. Was a bright light in my face. No,
Speaker 1: like big meaning of all things. No, I don't have
Speaker 1: like some big like umbrella statement that I could make.
Speaker 1: Sorry you didn't tell me. I had to be prepared
Speaker 1: to do that. Yeah, well you know what. I wasn't
Speaker 1: ask it, but we ran out of time. As a
Speaker 1: dude named Joe March had this what makes it good
Speaker 1: human being? So I attempted to, like, uh, you know,
Speaker 1: hold court about like Kant's categorical imperative or Nietzsche's Nietzicie's
Speaker 1: idea of a ubermant or something like that. But I
Speaker 1: think I'm just gonna offer not what is a sufficient
Speaker 1: condition for being a good human being? But I'll offer
Speaker 1: what is a necessary condition, And I'd say that that's
Speaker 1: supporting public lands. That's good. So call I have, We're
Speaker 1: gonna run with what's the good? What makes it good
Speaker 1: human being? As the concluders what makes a good human being? Patience? Really,
Speaker 1: what if what if you're patiently waiting to kill a
Speaker 1: small child? Well, perhaps in that situation, while you are
Speaker 1: waiting there for your opportune moment, you have an epiphany
Speaker 1: and move on. Yeah, uh kind of go a trust
Speaker 1: and commitment. Yeah, you gotta flesh it out a little bit.
Speaker 1: I mean they can't, just because I just feeling it's
Speaker 1: a little not soft. It's a little bit like I'm like, yeah,
Speaker 1: like the white supremacy of that. Ah, Matt just made
Speaker 1: too good concluding thoughts, Um, well, I don't. I just
Speaker 1: feel like that if you if you have those two things, man,
Speaker 1: you can kind of tackle anything and continue on and
Speaker 1: do well and think all things that you try in
Speaker 1: relationships and jobs in the universe. And I agree, but
Speaker 1: you're taking for granted an enormous amount that they're trusting
Speaker 1: and committing to a thing that is that is of good.
Speaker 1: That's true, Um, because I had I had lugs you
Speaker 1: to like think about this, because I'm the guy with
Speaker 1: the computer with the questions on and I'm like, when
Speaker 1: I was saying that's an unfair man, you sound way
Speaker 1: more like, Yeah, I don't want you to think. Don't
Speaker 1: don't think I spent too much time on this. We're
Speaker 1: just shuffle and we were just kind of still doing this.
Speaker 1: My wife convouished me. I was mess to where I
Speaker 1: don't have any you know, I'm flying off the coffee here.
Speaker 1: I didn't think about this one because I questioned whether
Speaker 1: it was, like, you know, within our bailo Wick, right,
Speaker 1: Like I questioned whether it was this question, yeah, like
Speaker 1: does it fit the theme what the show is about?
Speaker 1: And no, but there's something really seductive about it. It's
Speaker 1: just like six clean words, man, and what makes it
Speaker 1: good human being? And when I had the lugs you
Speaker 1: thinking about this, you guys, and I would be like,
Speaker 1: I think I kept thinking, like, what level of fine
Speaker 1: tuning are we in while I'm talking with this, please
Speaker 1: think about the commitment stuff, because I do want to
Speaker 1: hear more, but like, do you be like what level
Speaker 1: of fine tuning? When we make a show, we start
Speaker 1: out where we're talking about like big, huge problems things,
Speaker 1: and then later like you know that, like second, can
Speaker 1: we change that second so that second you know? Were
Speaker 1: you like you're so like so good human being? I'm like,
Speaker 1: are we what where is he now to begin sort
Speaker 1: of shaping him and advising him. And the reason I
Speaker 1: was thinking about that as like, up until a couple
Speaker 1: of days ago, I wouldn't think that had to be like, oh,
Speaker 1: don't be a white supremacist. There's a starter, right, like
Speaker 1: you're setting the guy asking the question to be like,
Speaker 1: but now I'm like, oh, so we're starting out like
Speaker 1: we're starting out like really broad basics ship that we're
Speaker 1: not able to hone in on, like the fine tune
Speaker 1: details that you don't know if he's at the Ten
Speaker 1: Commandments level or if he's kind of further down on
Speaker 1: the road, and taking like this like great guy, right,
Speaker 1: and he's being like, yes, you trust the commitment, like
Speaker 1: you've got it, like you're head in the right direction,
Speaker 1: you know. Um so yeah, if I think about what
Speaker 1: makes a good human being, I'll tell you like a
Speaker 1: thing I like in people that like in people when
Speaker 1: someone is holds this contradiction where they're really um steadfast okay,
Speaker 1: but also really open to all the ideas floating around.
Speaker 1: But all the ideas floating around. Don't make him be
Speaker 1: like this, right, the ideas floating around, make him just
Speaker 1: be like this right, you see in my hands even
Speaker 1: moving side to side like you know, then I in
Speaker 1: in in that is like that's the thing I like,
Speaker 1: That's the thing I like that I think about and
Speaker 1: strive towards and like and just try to keep in
Speaker 1: mind as a hiding thing, like just being aware of
Speaker 1: all these things and and and enjoying the movement rather
Speaker 1: than you know, our father hated movement, like he hated
Speaker 1: if you thought, Like if you thought something that these
Speaker 1: you didn't like it that you like your Yeah, I
Speaker 1: like your what you're saying, Like all your beliefs are
Speaker 1: at least somewhat contingent, but you believe in them real
Speaker 1: hard somewhat quite a bit. Yeah, maybe we have. And
Speaker 1: it was thought I can't add to I can't add
Speaker 1: to you know what. I feel like that was sufficient thought.
Speaker 1: So what would you say to someone specifically a woman
Speaker 1: there was a hunter before and still is, but has
Speaker 1: a hard time hunting after giving birth because of the
Speaker 1: beauty of life. Yes, I wouldn't urge you to go hunt.
Speaker 1: I remember what. I think. That's something I think that
Speaker 1: some like things that happened to people are like pretty
Speaker 1: like I don't probably legitimate. Yeah, I think it's a
Speaker 1: great question. I don't think anybody that should doesn't want
Speaker 1: to go home and should go home. It's not that
Speaker 1: I don't want to, I think, and I tell my
Speaker 1: husband this, it's like, once you've given life, it's harder
Speaker 1: to take a life, which sounds ridiculous, but no, I
Speaker 1: think I've heard this from other women before. You just
Speaker 1: watch the whole process play out, and it gives it
Speaker 1: like a level of saying. And it's not anti hunting,
Speaker 1: because we live off the meat and we process it ourselves,
Speaker 1: and so it's not anti hunting at all. But it's
Speaker 1: almost harder for me to be able to go hunting
Speaker 1: now after giving birth to a human beat no objections.
Speaker 1: Continue to support public lands. Be patient, um beat in
Speaker 1: tune to the idea that you might shift on that,
Speaker 1: but then remain steadfast and uh focus, all right. Thanks
Speaker 1: for joining us,