Speaker 1: Hey, there everyone, So just in case you are listening
Speaker 1: to this from the future, here's a quick reminder that
Speaker 1: the summer of was uh, let's say unusual. There are
Speaker 1: a lot of other words I could use, but it
Speaker 1: was also incredibly notable for the Black Lives Matter protests
Speaker 1: and violent clashes with cops in cities across the country,
Speaker 1: sparked by a number of black people being killed by
Speaker 1: police officers. So it might be tempting to look at
Speaker 1: Angie Thomas's two thousand seventeen novel They Hate You Give
Speaker 1: as prescient, but really she's writing about something that has
Speaker 1: been happening for decades, for centuries really in this country.
Speaker 1: But we will get to that. This is Popcorn book
Speaker 1: Club and this week we're talking about Thomas's novel and
Speaker 1: it's film adaptation. And I promise you even dealing with
Speaker 1: sensitive topics like these are commitment to correcting people remains spadfast.
Speaker 1: She's been inaccurate. That just really get if I'm gonna
Speaker 1: be hateful, do it right. So, without further ado, here's
Speaker 1: Popcorn book Club. Hey, welcome back to Popcorn book Club.
Speaker 1: I'm Danish Schwartz and joined as always by Karamad Unqua,
Speaker 1: Jennifer Wright, Melissa Hunter, Antiene Tran. Hey, everyone, h I
Speaker 1: hate you give Obviously, it was a book that came
Speaker 1: out in two thousand seventeen and had a film version
Speaker 1: in two thousand eighteen, But we are revisiting it now
Speaker 1: for reasons that should be obvious. And also obvious should
Speaker 1: be that I, Danish Wartz, I'm a white person, and
Speaker 1: so I'm going to throw guidance of this conversation and
Speaker 1: leadership of this conversation over to my friend, I am
Speaker 1: a black person. You guys can't see realize that I
Speaker 1: have one actual question for you, Karama, before you before
Speaker 1: you take the Uh the issue so terrified? What's the question? No,
Speaker 1: it's just the there's a big issue of of code
Speaker 1: switching in this book and star the version of that
Speaker 1: she is at home and the version she is at school.
Speaker 1: You went to, uh as you've told me, not that
Speaker 1: I'm guessing a predominantly white prep school, boarding school, fancy
Speaker 1: fancy Virginia. Uh. What was that experience like for you? Well, well,
Speaker 1: just to clarify, I did go to for three years
Speaker 1: of high school. I went to in all girls boarding
Speaker 1: school in central sort of basically northern Virginia, but like
Speaker 1: rural northern Virginia in Loudon County, which is, fun fact,
Speaker 1: one of the richest counties in the nation. And it
Speaker 1: was an equestrian school, so most of the girls rode
Speaker 1: horses and I did not ride horses. I owned zero horses.
Speaker 1: My my roommates sophomore year horse girls school. Yes, I
Speaker 1: went to horse girls school. I the horse girls have
Speaker 1: become radicalized. I will say that, like my roommate from
Speaker 1: sophomore year who had a horse named Jack, and she
Speaker 1: showed me like a picture album of her, pictures of
Speaker 1: her and Jack. Uh. And she now lives on a farm.
Speaker 1: She met her husband on farmers only she's uh. And
Speaker 1: she was she having sex with the horse. No, she
Speaker 1: had a photo album of her and her horse. No,
Speaker 1: she was not having sex with a horse. There was
Speaker 1: a rumor spread about another girl at school that she
Speaker 1: had performed falacio on a horse, and the rumor. The
Speaker 1: worst part about that rumor is that somebody said that
Speaker 1: I started it, and I was like, no, I did not.
Speaker 1: I have nothing to do with this horse falacio rumor.
Speaker 1: But back to the point, it's just ever since Catherine
Speaker 1: the Great people just keep going with the same staring
Speaker 1: back away from horse Falatio, staring it back to the
Speaker 1: conversation of race. I did not come from uh like
Speaker 1: horse background, but I did. My mom also went to
Speaker 1: that school. I was one of the first sort of
Speaker 1: legacies that was black. And I think that it is
Speaker 1: important to note the blackness is not a monolith, and
Speaker 1: stars experience in this book is not every black person's
Speaker 1: experience in this book, and there's overlap was mine. I
Speaker 1: did feel like I had to be different at school
Speaker 1: than I was at home. Um. But the thing is
Speaker 1: I lived at school, so that also makes it a
Speaker 1: whole different situation where I was there like nine months
Speaker 1: out of the year. Uh. And for me, I felt
Speaker 1: like I was definitely encouraged to remember that my situation
Speaker 1: in life was not the same as their situations in life,
Speaker 1: so if I got in trouble, the consequences would be different.
Speaker 1: And that was something that I think was always over me.
Speaker 1: And I kind of got this reputation very early on
Speaker 1: that I was a narc because I was like, if
Speaker 1: you guys do anything that is bad, I will tell
Speaker 1: on you because I'm not trying to be an accomplice
Speaker 1: to anything. I'm not trying to affiliate myself with anything
Speaker 1: that is untoward, and so that did not earn me
Speaker 1: many friends early on, but as people got to know me,
Speaker 1: I think they got to figure out out that, oh,
Speaker 1: she's not an arch, she's just scared. So uh yeah,
Speaker 1: I did go to a primarily white institution for high
Speaker 1: school p w I for short, and I went to
Speaker 1: one for college, and uh so that I have a
Speaker 1: lot of experience with what Star went through in terms
Speaker 1: of having a code switch and having these two worlds
Speaker 1: and living and existing in a world where people are
Speaker 1: very educated and have this idea of knowing a lot
Speaker 1: about what's going on in the world, but still don't
Speaker 1: really see you for who you are. And there's a
Speaker 1: line I think it was in the movie, I don't
Speaker 1: remember if it was also in the book, but Hailey
Speaker 1: says to Star, Oh, you're different. And there's that sort
Speaker 1: of feeling that like, oh, you're not like other black
Speaker 1: people because you're a person that I understand that you're palatable,
Speaker 1: and I feel like that's something that happens a lot
Speaker 1: with black people who have a lot of white friends
Speaker 1: and have a lot of non black friends in general,
Speaker 1: and krama for listeners who maybe don't know. Can you
Speaker 1: explain code switching? Oh? Absolutely, yeah. Code switching is something
Speaker 1: that everyone does. Uh. Just to be clear, it's not
Speaker 1: exclusive to black people, but a lot of times we
Speaker 1: have conversations about it in relation to blackness. Code switching
Speaker 1: is when the language and behaviors that you engage in
Speaker 1: with one group of people you change them when you're
Speaker 1: around another group of people. So we all code switch
Speaker 1: in in smaller ways, like, oh, when I'm with my friends,
Speaker 1: I don't talk the same way I talk at work
Speaker 1: because that would be inappropriate unless you're us and you
Speaker 1: can talk about horse Falacio both at work and with
Speaker 1: your friends. US with black comedy writer, yes, that is true,
Speaker 1: or a group chat does not have many conversations about
Speaker 1: horse Falacio yet, so uh so, code switching for black
Speaker 1: people in particular can be a switch from African American
Speaker 1: Vernacular English also known as A A V E, sometimes
Speaker 1: pejoratively termed ebonics into standard American English. So that's something
Speaker 1: that some people in their neighborhoods, like Star says in
Speaker 1: the book, and we'll get into plot in just a second,
Speaker 1: but Star says, if a rapper would say it star
Speaker 1: At Williamson Williamson, Oh, I know the name of the school.
Speaker 1: Starr At Williamson would not say it. So there's this
Speaker 1: sort of division of this is my academic language and
Speaker 1: this is my I'm at home with my friends language,
Speaker 1: even when she's in the social aspects of her school,
Speaker 1: so not just in the classroom, but also when she's
Speaker 1: talking to her peers. And there's also that scene in
Speaker 1: the movie I think we also watched the movie where
Speaker 1: she's like walking down the hall and all the white
Speaker 1: kids are like those kids are lit, and she's saying
Speaker 1: thank you. Yeah. That scene made me want to retch.
Speaker 1: I just it was I mean, it was a visceral
Speaker 1: reaction because we've all had it. And like, there are
Speaker 1: people in my life, like people that have known for
Speaker 1: a very long time, who will talk differently to me,
Speaker 1: a black person, than they do to other white people
Speaker 1: in their lives. Like, um, there is a family friend
Speaker 1: who whenever I come over to their house, he's like, Oh,
Speaker 1: what's up, dog, And I'm just like, I don't talk
Speaker 1: like that. I legitimately don't, And I don't know why
Speaker 1: you would talk to me like that, because you also
Speaker 1: don't talk like that, and there's nothing wrong with talking
Speaker 1: like that, but it's just not how either of us talk,
Speaker 1: and it's the shift into that when my face walks
Speaker 1: into the room. I've had to not catch myself. But
Speaker 1: I have noticed sometimes on the internet, like with like
Speaker 1: a Twitter slang that like cool teens are using, but
Speaker 1: obviously and primarily comes from the black community, where sometimes
Speaker 1: I'm like doing a meme and it's more in in
Speaker 1: you know, like more casual language or slang that I
Speaker 1: wouldn't really use, and I sort of have to catch
Speaker 1: myself and being like, Okay, what am I trying to
Speaker 1: do here? That's like not an accurate representation of myself.
Speaker 1: So I think, like in watching this movie, it's so
Speaker 1: easy and reading the book, obviously, like for Haley, who's
Speaker 1: like the most villainous white character in the world, which
Speaker 1: we'll get to, it's easy to dismiss and be like, oh, well,
Speaker 1: I'm not like that, so I'm good. But I think
Speaker 1: that it does sort of sneak up on people and
Speaker 1: well meaning people in everything. There's a spectrum of all
Speaker 1: of that stuff, and uh, it's easy to think because
Speaker 1: I'm not one fifteen the cop, that I'm not engaging
Speaker 1: in racist behavior, or because I'm not Haley, I'm not
Speaker 1: engaging in racist behavior. But there are so many thousands
Speaker 1: of things in between those two people and on the
Speaker 1: other side of Haley that might seem more innocuous. But yeah,
Speaker 1: let's get into some plot. Um, Melissa, do you want
Speaker 1: to start us off? Oh gosh, sure, Sorry to throw
Speaker 1: the intense beginning at you. You look serene and I
Speaker 1: thought i'd put that up. Thank you so much. I
Speaker 1: need to get out of my neutral space. Uh. So
Speaker 1: we have Star Carter. She is our lead, our heroine. Um.
Speaker 1: She is I believe sixteen years old. Is that correct? Um?
Speaker 1: And she is going to a party with Kenya, who
Speaker 1: we later learn is not her not related. She's not
Speaker 1: related to Kenya, but they share a brother. They both
Speaker 1: share a half brother on different sides, dad and mom respectively. So,
Speaker 1: and it's a primarily black party, and or um, mostly
Speaker 1: mostly black people are there, teenagers. It's it's a you know,
Speaker 1: a really big party. And she feels very uncomfortable in
Speaker 1: this space. She's not. She's not because she goes to
Speaker 1: this prep school she is. Most of her social circle
Speaker 1: is now white, so she feels a little bit un
Speaker 1: off her footing. She doesn't. She feels self conscious because
Speaker 1: she talks about how at her school she's the cool
Speaker 1: black girl, because you, by nature get when you're around
Speaker 1: a bunch of white people, they think you're cool and
Speaker 1: say your shoes are lit um. But here everyone is
Speaker 1: cooler than her, or at least she thinks so and Um.
Speaker 1: She runs into Kenya has Um Uh is in sort
Speaker 1: of a fight. She wants to fight with this girl
Speaker 1: who I think there's some boy drama between them, and
Speaker 1: so she goes off and Khalil, her old friend, comes
Speaker 1: up to her, and they haven't seen each other in
Speaker 1: a while, and they're talking and it's clear there's some
Speaker 1: intimacy between them. They really care for each other and
Speaker 1: he it's also you can tell there's like a little
Speaker 1: bit of flirtation too. There's just a lot of layers
Speaker 1: to this relationship. And then all of a sudden, shots
Speaker 1: are fired in the party and everyone is scrambling to leave,
Speaker 1: and Khalil grab star and says, come with me, and
Speaker 1: so they go into his car and drive away and
Speaker 1: they're driving. They're catching up some more Uh Khalil makes
Speaker 1: either at the party or in the car. I forget
Speaker 1: it seems to imply that he's has some money now,
Speaker 1: and she's a little bit worried that it might be
Speaker 1: related to drugs and um. And then all of a
Speaker 1: sudden they get pulled over. And when they get pulled over,
Speaker 1: we hear star sort of of what she's learned when
Speaker 1: she had the talk with her parents when she was
Speaker 1: younger about how to be safe as or as safe
Speaker 1: as you can be as a black person with a
Speaker 1: police when you're pulled over, and you, uh, you know,
Speaker 1: are very polite. You don't make any sudden moves, you
Speaker 1: answer their questions, you don't reach for anything too quickly.
Speaker 1: So she's kind of reciting all that as this cop
Speaker 1: is coming up, and the cop is immediately antagonistic and
Speaker 1: suspicious of these two black teenagers, and Khalil is not
Speaker 1: um abiding by stars sort of rules that she has
Speaker 1: in her head of how to be safe with police present.
Speaker 1: Is being a little bit more, a little bit more
Speaker 1: of an attitude um in a way that is justified
Speaker 1: because the cop is being very antagonistic and she gets
Speaker 1: really worried. Um. But it escalates very quickly. Uh. They
Speaker 1: the cops says to get out of the car for
Speaker 1: Khalil to get out of the car and put his
Speaker 1: hands I believe, on the top of the car while
Speaker 1: he goes and runs his license and Star is getting
Speaker 1: very scared and Khalil asks if she's okay, And in
Speaker 1: the middle of Khalil asking if she's okay, he gets
Speaker 1: shot and killed. Um. She runs out of the car
Speaker 1: and Khalil dies in her arms, and it's very very sad.
Speaker 1: Uh and uh and that at the cop also points
Speaker 1: the gun at her um and someone else wants I
Speaker 1: think that's a good place to I think it's a
Speaker 1: good place to about that scene. Yeah. Can I make
Speaker 1: one comment of a thing that I really like that
Speaker 1: Angie Thomas did with the setup of this book. Was
Speaker 1: she she made it. She gave it the sense that
Speaker 1: it could have been a very different book. Like the
Speaker 1: sexual chemistry between Kalil is really cute, and you're like, oh,
Speaker 1: this is her former friend, but she has this white boyfriend.
Speaker 1: Were in a different universe, this book would have been
Speaker 1: about like a love triangle between a girl sort of
Speaker 1: who feels herself caught between two worlds. Like I was
Speaker 1: like wing for her and Khalil, I was like, oh
Speaker 1: my god, are they going to kiss. They have this
Speaker 1: chemistry and then this cop I mean like he kills
Speaker 1: Khalil and cuts his life so or completely changes the
Speaker 1: trajectory of the book. Yeah, And I think that's one
Speaker 1: of the things that makes it especially tragic that it's
Speaker 1: cut off that potential story, that it's cut off all
Speaker 1: potential stories for I mean, it can't be a story
Speaker 1: about him getting out of drug dealing or them both
Speaker 1: getting to live in a better place. Um, although stories
Speaker 1: are ended incredibly prematurely by an act of violence. I
Speaker 1: think that we've talked a lot about some really heavy
Speaker 1: stuff and we should just take a breather for a sec.
Speaker 1: You're listening to Popcorn Book Club from my Heart Radio,
Speaker 1: and we'll be back right after the break. So we're
Speaker 1: back with Popcorn book Club for my Heart Radio. I mean,
Speaker 1: I think the one thing that I would love to
Speaker 1: talk about is that they listened to Tupac on the
Speaker 1: way to to get back to UH Stars house and
Speaker 1: they Khalil brings up the fact that thug life actually
Speaker 1: means something much more than what I had never I
Speaker 1: did not know this, um and that thug life stands
Speaker 1: for they hate you give little infants, Fox everyone, which
Speaker 1: is kind of a shorthand acronym for systemic racism, which
Speaker 1: they talk about and then gets It's it's sort of
Speaker 1: a theme that we keep coming back to that these
Speaker 1: cycles of violence are because of you know, as we
Speaker 1: as we were all starting to learn about like under resourced,
Speaker 1: under underserved communities being forced into economic situations that they
Speaker 1: can't break the cycle of because of state violence. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1: And I thought it was interesting also that Melissa you
Speaker 1: had talked about how there was an indication that Khalil
Speaker 1: had money, and the indication, if I recall, was that
Speaker 1: he had like this big earring with a diamond in it,
Speaker 1: and he had these like new fresh sneakers, which she
Speaker 1: did stuff and we get to see a little bit,
Speaker 1: like Dana was saying, of the tension there because she's like, oh,
Speaker 1: let me clean your sneakers because she's a sneaker head,
Speaker 1: which I love. I love that she's a little sneaker head. Um.
Speaker 1: I love Star just as a character, and she loves
Speaker 1: Harry Potter and Karon Potter. I know. You know, I
Speaker 1: kept going back to the Harry Potter thing as well,
Speaker 1: because he kept reminding me how young these people were that. Um,
Speaker 1: I think something that we as a society do is
Speaker 1: sometimes we have prematurely adultified black children. And a lot
Speaker 1: of times, when um, a black person gets shot by
Speaker 1: the police, newspapers talk about how like they were a thug,
Speaker 1: and it seems like they posted danger. And I think
Speaker 1: if you look back to what you were like at fifteen,
Speaker 1: those are those are just making Those are little people
Speaker 1: who like Harry Potter, well that and that's something I
Speaker 1: will I'm sure keep going back to. But what I
Speaker 1: loved about this book was it was, you know, a
Speaker 1: book about about systemic violence or violence against black people
Speaker 1: and this incredible tragedy and all of the tragedies um
Speaker 1: against black people. And at the same time it was
Speaker 1: a young adult teenage drama. Like there's a teenage drama.
Speaker 1: There's romance, there's like going to prom and then the
Speaker 1: beginning it starts with a flirtation, and it it does
Speaker 1: feel like black teenagers can't just be teenagers. And that's
Speaker 1: the thing, like you you see over and over again,
Speaker 1: like with her tumbler, I think it's a really good
Speaker 1: example of how, like Hayley thinks, it's so disgusting posting
Speaker 1: these pictures of them att till and it's like that's what,
Speaker 1: that's what they're faced with, their face with that duality constantly.
Speaker 1: And I think that was really well told. And we'll
Speaker 1: get into m until stuff later. It's fine, we And
Speaker 1: I think that also the fact that it's there's this
Speaker 1: huge argument it's about tumbler again speaks to the fact
Speaker 1: that these are teenagers in um like sen whose main
Speaker 1: issues surround on this like microblogging social media platform that
Speaker 1: was very cool at the time. Would just like, can
Speaker 1: I just add that I love that it's a young
Speaker 1: adult book, but I think everyone should read this book,
Speaker 1: Like I think that is such it's like wonderful read.
Speaker 1: It's so important and thoughtful, and like everyone should read
Speaker 1: this book. It shouldn't beat as young adults. So anyone listening, like,
Speaker 1: share it with everyone that you're that you're friends with,
Speaker 1: not friends, enemies, anyone. Something I was wondering about a
Speaker 1: little bit, since a lot of members of this group
Speaker 1: are white, did anybody else have a conversation with their
Speaker 1: parents growing up about what to do with please pull
Speaker 1: you over? The most brief one and it was never
Speaker 1: for your own safety. It was just like how always
Speaker 1: have your registration on you. Yeah, you should keep that
Speaker 1: in the glove compartment. Was the extent of the conversation
Speaker 1: was have your registration. But well, when I was ten,
Speaker 1: actually the cop pulled my mom over, and um, I
Speaker 1: had not had a conversation with her at the time
Speaker 1: about anything. And I remember recently I had been at
Speaker 1: j C. Penny with my family friends and we had
Speaker 1: all been like shopping at j C. Penny and then
Speaker 1: my friend who was like my mom's friend's daughter, and
Speaker 1: I were lagging behind and we get to the car
Speaker 1: and we heard that, um, they got to see the
Speaker 1: inside of a cop car, and I was super jealous
Speaker 1: that I didn't get to see the inside of a
Speaker 1: cop car. Um, because they like gave my friend's little
Speaker 1: brother a tour. And I think that he also seems
Speaker 1: less of a threat because he was younger. We were
Speaker 1: all black. I think that's important to note he's younger
Speaker 1: and he has down syndrome. He's not younger now. He's
Speaker 1: like twenty two now, which is crazy to me. But
Speaker 1: then I was super jealous that I hadn't gotten see
Speaker 1: the inside of a cop car. So my mom gets
Speaker 1: pulled over because she has like dead tags on her car,
Speaker 1: which sometimes we all forget or we're just broke and
Speaker 1: can't do it. Um. And it was like by a month,
Speaker 1: it wasn't like years later anything. And the cop pulled
Speaker 1: us over and I leaned over and I said, can
Speaker 1: I see the inside of your car? And my mom
Speaker 1: looked like she wanted to strangle me because she's like, please,
Speaker 1: do not engage with police like that. Don't talk to them,
Speaker 1: just let them. He did let me see the inside
Speaker 1: of his car, which made me super happy at the time,
Speaker 1: And now I hope to never see the inside of
Speaker 1: a cop car ever again. But it's interesting because I
Speaker 1: was just a kid in that sense and not with
Speaker 1: the weight of this is the police under my decision making.
Speaker 1: I was just like, Oh, my friend got to see
Speaker 1: the inside of a cop car. I want to see
Speaker 1: all the button um. But I also had the privilege
Speaker 1: of not growing up in the same type of neighborhood
Speaker 1: as Star Granma. I want to go back briefly to
Speaker 1: the point that Ten made about this being a way book,
Speaker 1: but it um, you know, really should be read by everyone.
Speaker 1: You and I we texted about this briefly when we
Speaker 1: started reading it, where it's like, there are certain advantages
Speaker 1: to it being a y A story in that it
Speaker 1: young people hopefully also will read this, like I've heard
Speaker 1: stories about high school student traits, in which I think
Speaker 1: it's also important to note that it was awarded a
Speaker 1: couple of different awards by the American Library Association. So
Speaker 1: it got the Cretis got King Award, obviously named for
Speaker 1: Martin Luther King Jr's wife, Um, and that's for black
Speaker 1: young adult books. And it also won the William C.
Speaker 1: Morris Award, which was for first time young adult writers.
Speaker 1: And it was on the National Book Award Young Adult
Speaker 1: long List, so it's killing it in the y A game.
Speaker 1: And it was highly recognized, and it was on the
Speaker 1: New York Times bestseller list for over eighty weeks when
Speaker 1: it first came out, So this was clearly something that
Speaker 1: sparked something in people. But it was also banned by
Speaker 1: several people, and there were fringe groups saying that it
Speaker 1: was dangerous because it humanized the victims of police violence,
Speaker 1: which just I don't know if that's why it was banned.
Speaker 1: It does have a lot of swear words and a
Speaker 1: penis joke at one point, which I thought was great
Speaker 1: because that's life when you're sixteen. But I don't think
Speaker 1: that the single penis joke in the book is the
Speaker 1: reason that people were banning it. I think it's because
Speaker 1: it was about race a lot. It humanizes the human
Speaker 1: It does humanize the human beings. But yeah, I was
Speaker 1: doing some reading on the book online and there are
Speaker 1: people who were like, this is bad because of humanization,
Speaker 1: and I was like, God, God forbid people see black
Speaker 1: people as humans. I remember seeing someone on Twitter like
Speaker 1: coming at Angie and the author and they were like, Um,
Speaker 1: how am I supposed to take a book about black
Speaker 1: people's seriously when the title spells out thug t h
Speaker 1: U g ever think of that? And she's like, yeah,
Speaker 1: literally she did, Like it's spelled purposely like you to
Speaker 1: make that. They talked about it in the course like
Speaker 1: a lot. It's it's probably the most recurring theme, but
Speaker 1: it's someone most chief. It's someone who thought they found
Speaker 1: the illuminating Beyonce might be stars cousin. They do talk
Speaker 1: about that in the book, that they have the same
Speaker 1: we have the same last name, and I'm like, that's
Speaker 1: jay Z's last name. Calm down, you're related to jay
Speaker 1: Z at best, which is not to slander jay Z
Speaker 1: ja Z You're wonderful. I know you're listening to this
Speaker 1: as we are a top podcast. Um, jay Z is
Speaker 1: no Beyonce. I feel like we can all say and
Speaker 1: are different people. Yes, that is what I will say.
Speaker 1: But they could be like cousins in law, which would
Speaker 1: be really cool. Yes, cousins by marriage. But so we've
Speaker 1: talked about everything sort of accept the worst part of
Speaker 1: that first segment, which is the shooting itself, and it
Speaker 1: was really illuminating to see how Uh it was very
Speaker 1: upsetting for me to watch it and film. It was
Speaker 1: hard to read, but it was harder to watch. And uh,
Speaker 1: it's interesting to see how she focuses on tiny details
Speaker 1: like the badge number because her dad was like, make
Speaker 1: sure you have a badge number, And for the rest
Speaker 1: of the book she only refers to him by his
Speaker 1: badge number, even after learning his name. And I think
Speaker 1: also just her insistence like hey, Khalil, you need to
Speaker 1: listen to to me. It also really shows that there's
Speaker 1: a family cohesiveness in her life and there's like a
Speaker 1: familial care in her life that wasn't in Khalil's life
Speaker 1: because Khalil's mother has has a drug problem and isn't
Speaker 1: fully present in his life. And I think that later on,
Speaker 1: Star sort of blames his mother in a way for that,
Speaker 1: because if someone had had to talk with him, he
Speaker 1: might still be alive. Mm hmm, yeah, I hate you
Speaker 1: give a little infants everyone. Yeah. Um. So I think
Speaker 1: that also the fact that she was so overwrought with
Speaker 1: emotion after this shooting happens, that she forgets everything that
Speaker 1: she's been taught and she does run after him and
Speaker 1: sort of put herself in danger. The gun probably wouldn't
Speaker 1: have been pointed at her if she hadn't left the
Speaker 1: car to go run to help Khalil Uh shows that
Speaker 1: there's a love there for him, just a friend love,
Speaker 1: maybe more because they did have a little kiss when
Speaker 1: they were younger, but a friend love that supersedes everything
Speaker 1: else and supersedes all of her training and conditioning to
Speaker 1: not do these things, and that in a way, the
Speaker 1: love is stronger been the hate that's been given by
Speaker 1: the police and everything. Um yeah, I'm done. Yeah. And
Speaker 1: it was so interesting to see Khalil's reaction to the
Speaker 1: police because when you're when I was watching in the movie,
Speaker 1: I was with Star you're like, just just put your
Speaker 1: hands on the dashboard, just do what he says. But
Speaker 1: you also recognize that like, yeah, from Khalil's perspective and
Speaker 1: from the world's perspective, like it is absolute bullshit, like
Speaker 1: the fact that the cop is treating him that way
Speaker 1: and the fact that Khalil has had to deal with
Speaker 1: that for his entire life, Like you're asking someone to
Speaker 1: behave I'm putting air quotes around this rationally in an
Speaker 1: irrational system. And one detail I forgot to mention was
Speaker 1: that they're pulled over because of a broken tail light.
Speaker 1: So it's not even for anything like any traffic violation,
Speaker 1: not that that would cause any more reason to be
Speaker 1: antagonizing the way that one fIF was, but it is
Speaker 1: like that is his life and just being you know,
Speaker 1: harassed constantly, and you understand exactly why you know, um,
Speaker 1: he's like that, but but you also, yeah, you were
Speaker 1: on star side outside of just like don't go back
Speaker 1: into the house, you know, don't go into the basement.
Speaker 1: You know, it feels like watching a horror movie. That's real.
Speaker 1: There's no question in my mind that if Khalil had
Speaker 1: been white and been openly antagonistic with the cop. It
Speaker 1: would have been fine. I grew up in a wealthy
Speaker 1: white community. There were kids who got pulled over and
Speaker 1: told cops to go funk themselves, and it was like, well,
Speaker 1: we'll talk to your father about this, young match. Um.
Speaker 1: So yeah, I think it's very clear that this only
Speaker 1: happened because of race, and that he was so trigger
Speaker 1: happy that he was so ready to shoot at the
Speaker 1: first sign of movement. I mean that is only because
Speaker 1: Khalil was black. I um. And they do go into
Speaker 1: that a little bit more in the movie than in
Speaker 1: the book, the trigger happiness of the white the white
Speaker 1: cop in the face of a black Uh. To use
Speaker 1: a word, I guess suspect I don't like using that word.
Speaker 1: But um. But something else that I thought, sorry, um
Speaker 1: who um. Something else that I thought was really interesting
Speaker 1: was the choice to make it a more specific visible
Speaker 1: thing that Khalil didn't do in the in the movie,
Speaker 1: because in the movie it wasn't a broken tail light,
Speaker 1: it was failure to signal when changing lanes. And that
Speaker 1: also caused the mind of course Sandra Bland, who got
Speaker 1: pulled over for the same thing. And I thought that
Speaker 1: it was interesting, And there were a couple of things
Speaker 1: while watching the movie that made me wonder did a
Speaker 1: white person write this? Which a white person did write this?
Speaker 1: And that was the first thing, especially because I could
Speaker 1: see watching the movie that his tail lights weren't out,
Speaker 1: and I was like, oh, is this guy's still gonna
Speaker 1: pull him over for a broken tail light? And in
Speaker 1: the book, there's no way to tell whether or not
Speaker 1: there was a legitimate, quote unquote legitimate reason to pull
Speaker 1: him over because we don't see the tail light at
Speaker 1: any point, so it doesn't matter whether it was something
Speaker 1: that he did wrong or not. In the book, he
Speaker 1: was pulled over and then he was treated poorly. And
Speaker 1: this in the film version. I found it. I don't
Speaker 1: want to stay upsetting, but I found it interesting that
Speaker 1: one could justify them being pulled over objectively. I do.
Speaker 1: I want to point out not that this just I
Speaker 1: guess part of the conversation. Actually the screenwriter, Audrey wells Uh,
Speaker 1: died of cancer the day the day before it was released. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I also saw that God just its own weird tragedy,
Speaker 1: But yeah I did. I was like, well, why out
Speaker 1: of every screenwriter in Hollywood may be with what a
Speaker 1: black person not right? This incredibly black species, every single screenwriter,
Speaker 1: just there's so many people. There was also a moment
Speaker 1: in the movie too that I found interesting that I
Speaker 1: was like, Okay, this might be attributed to having a
Speaker 1: white screenwriter. Is that they gave the cop a moment.
Speaker 1: You got to see there was a moment where the
Speaker 1: cop realized that he had sucked up. And to me,
Speaker 1: that I think humanized it in a way that I
Speaker 1: don't agree with necessarily in that situation, it was copaganda.
Speaker 1: It's like it's Coppa. It was totally capaganda. And I
Speaker 1: was like, ah, that wasn't exactly. They also made it
Speaker 1: so that Khalil was actively reaching for the hairbrush and
Speaker 1: like pulled the hair brush out, which in the book
Speaker 1: he doesn't do the same way, and then the cop
Speaker 1: like sees it and he's like ship And that's like
Speaker 1: what you were talking about, Like the moment where he's like, oh,
Speaker 1: I sucked up. Um. I think like a decision to
Speaker 1: call him one fifteen throughout the book was like a
Speaker 1: really choice on Andrew's part for that reason that you're
Speaker 1: talking about, where it's like, for once, we're going to
Speaker 1: humanize Kali. Yeah, I really appreciated that choice and it
Speaker 1: felt so intentional throughout, Like, the only time you ever that,
Speaker 1: the only time you ever see him again is in
Speaker 1: this cappaganda interview with his father, and that's the only
Speaker 1: time he is quote unquote humanized. But it is seen
Speaker 1: through the lens of Star, which is which I felt
Speaker 1: was of such a good choice because you were there
Speaker 1: with her, not with them, and it is intentionally capaganda. Absolutely, Yeah,
Speaker 1: it was very clearly. And I think they had mentioned
Speaker 1: before he's probably going to do these interviews, and that
Speaker 1: was one of the reasons that Starr was encouraged to
Speaker 1: also do an interview. All right, so here, maybe it's
Speaker 1: a good spot for for a little break. M hmm,
Speaker 1: sounds great. This is Popcorn book Club. We'll be right
Speaker 1: back after this quick break. Okay, we're back with Popcorn
Speaker 1: book Club. Yeah, do you want to handle the next
Speaker 1: part post shooting? Yes? Um, so, I think the cops
Speaker 1: do not help Khalil and he dies in the street,
Speaker 1: and it immediately triggers stars memory of another best friend
Speaker 1: of hers who is murdered. We find out that Star
Speaker 1: has a trio of best She's part of a trio
Speaker 1: of best friends. It's her, Khalil and her friend Natasha
Speaker 1: and Natasha is murdered by a gang violence, UM, and
Speaker 1: it's kind of she's having this like flashback happening in
Speaker 1: that moment. UM. The next day we get back to
Speaker 1: I Believe uh stars home and she shares with her
Speaker 1: parents that she really doesn't want to share or want
Speaker 1: people to know that she was the witness at the
Speaker 1: shooting at the murder um and because she's afraid of
Speaker 1: the backlash. She knows that this could be become a
Speaker 1: national news story and that she has seen what other
Speaker 1: witnesses have had to experience of like online backlash, harassment,
Speaker 1: death threats, um, and she doesn't want to put herself
Speaker 1: in that position. UM. We also learn in these in
Speaker 1: in this chapter that she has a love for Fresh Prince. UM,
Speaker 1: that she's a huge fan of Will because in some
Speaker 1: ways her and Will share a similarity in that they,
Speaker 1: you know, went to a mostly like a predominantly white
Speaker 1: private school. UM, and she kind of like relates to
Speaker 1: Will in that way. And also she shares I think
Speaker 1: that's when we find out that her boyfriend also likes
Speaker 1: Fresh Prince to Chris, and that they have kind of
Speaker 1: shared a shared love of Fresh Prince. It's their high
Speaker 1: school love connection. UM. We also are introduced to Maverick
Speaker 1: uh Stars dad and his You know that he really
Speaker 1: has a lot of the with them, trying that a lot.
Speaker 1: He takes a lot of his values in or follows
Speaker 1: the lives his life through the rules and principles of
Speaker 1: Black Panther Party and Black Power. UM. We learn about
Speaker 1: the ten point Uh program. UM. And then we also
Speaker 1: learned about stars relationship to King, that he is her
Speaker 1: godfather and that he kind of is this villain in
Speaker 1: the neighborhood. He is the big drug lord UM, and
Speaker 1: that him and Maverick her dad have had a history,
Speaker 1: which we will learn about more later on. And I
Speaker 1: do think that we we briefly talked about it earlier,
Speaker 1: but it's important to just note very clearly that the
Speaker 1: boyfriend who also likes Fresh Prince Chris, he is white.
Speaker 1: Oh yes, Chris is white. UM. Very important to make
Speaker 1: sure we know that. And and then we move on
Speaker 1: in Star weeks up from a nightmare and Uh finds
Speaker 1: her parents and Uncle Carlos are talking about the murder
Speaker 1: and Uncle Carlos wants start to testify, and it almost
Speaker 1: I mean, it's already complicated that Uncle Carlos is a cop.
Speaker 1: We find out that he's a cop, and he once
Speaker 1: started to testify to almost maybe justify the shooting. He
Speaker 1: doesn't say it as much, but there's kind of an
Speaker 1: illusion of like trying to get to the truth of
Speaker 1: the matter, and that Khalil might have been a drug
Speaker 1: dealer and that maybe this is why this incident he
Speaker 1: keeps calling it happens and Uncle Carlos, as Scart started
Speaker 1: testify and she agrees despite being kind of terrified to
Speaker 1: confront the police again. UM. We also learned at this
Speaker 1: time that Uncle Carlos has stepped in as a father
Speaker 1: figure while Maverick was in jail because Maverick was a
Speaker 1: part of the King Lords, which we learn more about
Speaker 1: later um, but that he actually went to jail because
Speaker 1: he took the fall for King, so we will learn
Speaker 1: more about later um. And then this chapter ends with
Speaker 1: I believe the fam visits Khalil's grandmother and we learned
Speaker 1: that he was dealing. We again don't get the full
Speaker 1: picture and stars upset because we learned that Khalil's mother
Speaker 1: was an addict. And so it's interesting that we get
Speaker 1: these little tidbits about Khalil because almost as if Star
Speaker 1: is also stereotyping Khalil as like this person who was
Speaker 1: a drug dealer, how could he ever fall into that life?
Speaker 1: And she hasn't fully grasped the full picture of why
Speaker 1: someone like Khalil would have to resort to such resort
Speaker 1: to something like that. Yeah, absolutely, I think that. Um,
Speaker 1: the thing about Carlos being the father figure becomes complex
Speaker 1: because there's this cop that she loves and there's this
Speaker 1: cop that she hates right now, and how do you
Speaker 1: reconcile those two things? And how do you fear and
Speaker 1: hate the cops but also love and care for your
Speaker 1: uncle who for the first like three or four years
Speaker 1: of her life was the only father figure that she knew. Uh.
Speaker 1: And also we get this the scene where we do
Speaker 1: meet Khalil's mom, Miss Brenda, and she comes into the
Speaker 1: clinic where Lisa Carter Stars mom works, and she is crying.
Speaker 1: She's distraught. She's like, that killed my baby, and Star
Speaker 1: blames her and she gets angry and she says like, oh,
Speaker 1: now she wants to be his mother. And Lisa is
Speaker 1: much more sympathetic and she says, no matter what she's done,
Speaker 1: she's still his mother. And he's still gone, and I
Speaker 1: think that that's an important and just this sort of
Speaker 1: running theme of family and parents. And also when we
Speaker 1: meet Maverick, we do get to find out a little
Speaker 1: bit more about like you mentioned the Black Panthers and
Speaker 1: then in the book. I found it really interesting that
Speaker 1: they got rid of this in the movie. Again, the
Speaker 1: thing that I was like, did a white person write this? Uh,
Speaker 1: the whole praying specifically to black Jesus and making that
Speaker 1: not not Jesus, specifically black Jesus. And there's a lot
Speaker 1: of interesting religious stuff where they pray to black Jesus.
Speaker 1: But also Maverick seems to sort of adhere to some
Speaker 1: of the beliefs of the Nation of Islam and he
Speaker 1: gets upset that there's pork in his house and he's
Speaker 1: just like, don't eat that stuff. But he's not actually Muslim,
Speaker 1: and he's not there's no indication that he is active
Speaker 1: in the Nation of Islam. Which I don't know if
Speaker 1: you all knew this, but the Southern Property Law Center
Speaker 1: qualifies as a hate group, um, which is really interesting.
Speaker 1: I did not know that. I mean, there's a lot
Speaker 1: of complicated stuff with some people and very anti Semitic things.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I didn't know about the until I saw it.
Speaker 1: I was like, oh yeah, this sounds like a hate group. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I would say, like like Louis Farrakon. It was who
Speaker 1: was that like influencer who quoted Ferrikon and was like
Speaker 1: who is this guy? Like it was, Oh, yes, that
Speaker 1: was somebody I can't remember. Yeah. I think it was
Speaker 1: Women's Smart And I think it was Jamill Legimil who
Speaker 1: posted like a picture of Louis Ferakon and a and
Speaker 1: a quote from him, and it was like a good
Speaker 1: quote because you know, sometimes people with bad beliefs can
Speaker 1: say Hitler was a great man. Yeah, so you should
Speaker 1: maybe distance yourself from anybody who feels that way about Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah and so and so you're like, all right, there's
Speaker 1: there's nuance here. Do you shouldn't. Let's let's not hate
Speaker 1: Jews or black people. I think that both. I think
Speaker 1: we can stand as a podcast and say, don't hate Jews,
Speaker 1: don't hate black people for being Jewish or for being black.
Speaker 1: If like a black person like says a mean thing
Speaker 1: to you, then you can be like, hey, you're a
Speaker 1: mean person who was also black. You don't have to
Speaker 1: love every single black person. But like maybe if they
Speaker 1: say Hitler's great, don't Yeah, yeah, I'd like to go
Speaker 1: on the record of saying that Hitler was not a
Speaker 1: great man. He was a very bad man and a
Speaker 1: mediocre artist too. Well, I'm glad that we as a
Speaker 1: podcast are navigating these very controversial really well. I hope
Speaker 1: we get more episodes after this. I think it's so
Speaker 1: interesting of Angie. I just want to go back to
Speaker 1: what you said, Karama about like, you know how the
Speaker 1: medias and story media and stories like to make like
Speaker 1: a monolith of black folks. And it's interesting that Maverick
Speaker 1: and Carlos are two very specific black men responding to
Speaker 1: white supremacy in different ways. One lives to fight it
Speaker 1: with his family in the neighborhood. The other arguably assimilates
Speaker 1: and wants to try and fix it from within, like
Speaker 1: to see and he is just doing so much with
Speaker 1: this book. It's just like so important. I would say
Speaker 1: that each character navigates their blackness in a really different way.
Speaker 1: And um, I thought it was interesting that in the
Speaker 1: movie Lisa the mom had relaxed hair. Do you all
Speaker 1: know what it means to have relaxed hair? Is that
Speaker 1: a thing that you understand, not to like maybe you,
Speaker 1: but I just know that sometimes non black people don't
Speaker 1: know terms that are very common in the black community.
Speaker 1: So for those of you listening who don't know what
Speaker 1: that means, relaxing your hair is when you chemically straighten
Speaker 1: it with a combination of chemicals like lie is one
Speaker 1: of them. If you haven't seen Chris Rocks documentary Good Hair,
Speaker 1: you should see it. It's incredible. Uh, it's like ten
Speaker 1: years old at this point, but it's still really important,
Speaker 1: really incredible to learn about black hair and just a
Speaker 1: lot of the hatred and stereotypes that come with having
Speaker 1: black hair in various forms. And there are a lot
Speaker 1: of people who say that people who relax their hair
Speaker 1: are trying to quote unquote be white or try to assimilate.
Speaker 1: And um, I thought that was an interesting choice because
Speaker 1: given the conversations that Maverick and Lisa tend to have
Speaker 1: about her wanting to leave the neighborhood and her being like,
Speaker 1: we need to move out of Garden Heights, that this
Speaker 1: needs to happen now that she was the one that
Speaker 1: had relaxed hair, and Starr has her hair and braids,
Speaker 1: which is a protective style for natural hair, and so
Speaker 1: stars kind of in this in between where she doesn't
Speaker 1: have her natural hair, like fully out, but she has
Speaker 1: this decidedly black hairstyle that is more quote unquote palatable
Speaker 1: to white people. And I feel like they say a
Speaker 1: lot in the movie with visual cues, like early on
Speaker 1: when she's part of it, is like her mom uh
Speaker 1: drives her from their neighborhood to this uh more wealthy
Speaker 1: neighborhood into this predominantly white school and uh Starry is
Speaker 1: wearing a hoodie, and when she gets to school, she
Speaker 1: pulls the hood off and takes the hoodie off. But
Speaker 1: then later in the film, when she finally sort of
Speaker 1: embraces both sides of herself and becomes decides to just
Speaker 1: be Star everywhere, when she confronts Haley, she's wearing a
Speaker 1: hoodie with a hoodie with the hood up, and I
Speaker 1: was like, oh, there it is. It's like it's part
Speaker 1: of her uniform still, like it's like a white uniform sweatshirt.
Speaker 1: But it's clearly they made the choice to to communicate
Speaker 1: that visually, which I appreciated because otherwise I did sort
Speaker 1: of feel like the movie gave short thrift to um
Speaker 1: Regina Hall's character as Lisa Carter, and Regina Hall is
Speaker 1: like such a wonderful actress again, but I think that
Speaker 1: the movie. I think the movie didn't give her a
Speaker 1: lot to do, and she she blew me out of
Speaker 1: the water with what she did do. But yeah, I
Speaker 1: think that the Mother. I felt like all of the
Speaker 1: women characters in the book, aside from Star or in
Speaker 1: the movie, aside from Star kind of got short change.
Speaker 1: Like they completely got rid of Nana, the grandmother character,
Speaker 1: and the and then the aunt, and April almost disappears
Speaker 1: she's been a little bit. But there were a lot
Speaker 1: of characters that sort of there's only so much time
Speaker 1: that you can make a movie. And I just noticed
Speaker 1: that a lot of the cutting room floor stuff ended
Speaker 1: up being these strong black women in the story outside
Speaker 1: of star Um. But they also cut DeVante. Yes, I
Speaker 1: was very upset about cutting, which I was very surprised by,
Speaker 1: especially because Davante, I feel like, comes up very early
Speaker 1: on in the party where Kenya is there to beat
Speaker 1: DeVante's girlfriends asked in Asia because she's been fighting with
Speaker 1: in Asia, which I appreciated. I appreciated that Kenya is
Speaker 1: not subtle and she's like I'm not going to psychologically
Speaker 1: sabotage her. I'm just gonna beat the ship out of her.
Speaker 1: And sorry, you're gonna help he he also comes like
Speaker 1: becomes such an incredible like source of steaks and tension
Speaker 1: because I feel like once he is introduced, you're so
Speaker 1: worried about him the whole time of like you know,
Speaker 1: whether I don't want to get ahead of it, but
Speaker 1: it just it feels an he's such a beautiful character,
Speaker 1: like his growth and and Star's relationship with him, Carlo
Speaker 1: and Maverick, it's it feels like it's a real shape,
Speaker 1: Like he's just such a critical part of the story.
Speaker 1: In my opinion. Yeah, I think he's sort of represented
Speaker 1: like the potential and risk of young black boys, like
Speaker 1: you know, the desperation with which Carlos and Maverick both
Speaker 1: wanted to save him. I think really commune. And it's
Speaker 1: the first thing they agree on. It's literally the first
Speaker 1: thing that they agree on, and it's like, um, it's
Speaker 1: like Tan said, they are both navigating white supremacy in
Speaker 1: different ways with the assimilation and with the like black
Speaker 1: power response, but this is the one thing that they
Speaker 1: can agree on that they need to keep this man,
Speaker 1: this young man is safe, and they will work together
Speaker 1: to figure out a way to do it that works
Speaker 1: for both of them and works for both of their beliefs.
Speaker 1: But this is where they can meet, is that they
Speaker 1: want to make sure that this young man lives and
Speaker 1: they want to make sure that he is okay, and
Speaker 1: they can do that. I just want to say, for contrast,
Speaker 1: in terms of the psycholotic the war fair that you
Speaker 1: do against a boyfriend's new girlfriend is my version of that.
Speaker 1: And a move that I have been told is in
Speaker 1: fact bullying. You know, it's bad. It's bad. I mean
Speaker 1: they're both bullying. Beating the ship out of someone is bullying.
Speaker 1: A you know when am I? I found out that
Speaker 1: like my ex that I'm very close to started seeing
Speaker 1: this other girl and like he and I are very close,
Speaker 1: and I was like, okay, who is she? And I
Speaker 1: looked her up on Twitter and I just like liked
Speaker 1: a few of her tweets and he's like and then
Speaker 1: he immediately texted me and I was like, you can't
Speaker 1: do that, Dana. That is bullying that I haven't done that.
Speaker 1: This was this was like two years ago. I am
Speaker 1: recognizing and I am growing, Yes, it is Karama is
Speaker 1: guest guest to which ex boyfriend. It is in it
Speaker 1: in the chat, and it is not trying to put
Speaker 1: you on blast in front of the world, but I
Speaker 1: did just want to know for that is uh, that
Speaker 1: is my version of going to a party and beating
Speaker 1: someone else. Okay, So, Um and I feel like they
Speaker 1: are both I don't want to say valid, because they're
Speaker 1: both horrible, but they are both recognized reactions to feeling
Speaker 1: like your quote unquote territory, territory has been infringed upon.
Speaker 1: But I just like that we get very early on
Speaker 1: who Kenya is, and we do get to see a
Speaker 1: more nuanced version of Kenya as we move along, because
Speaker 1: Kenya is seven sister and seven is stars brother and
Speaker 1: Kenya's father I don't know if we mentioned this, but
Speaker 1: Kenya's father is king, which becomes a big deal later.
Speaker 1: But um, yeah, So we've talked about Khalil's mom, um,
Speaker 1: and I think it's time to talk about the police
Speaker 1: station and move on from there. Dana, do you want
Speaker 1: to take that part? Yeah? Um. Starr agrees to go
Speaker 1: to the police station and testify about what she saw
Speaker 1: and what happened, sort of dealing with PTSD the entire time,
Speaker 1: which is legitimate. She saw her friend murdered in front
Speaker 1: of her, and so she she goes to the police station,
Speaker 1: and these two cops uh interrogate her in a way
Speaker 1: that immediately makes it clear that they are trying to
Speaker 1: justify what when fifteen did to Khalil, Like they're, you know,
Speaker 1: framing the questions is such an important part of like
Speaker 1: what what lawyers do because it it, you know, immediately
Speaker 1: reveals your perspective. And so they're they're talking to her
Speaker 1: in a way that makes her feel uh very much
Speaker 1: like she's not able to do justice to Khalil in
Speaker 1: the way that she wants to. She wants to communicate
Speaker 1: fully that like this cop pointed a gun at her too,
Speaker 1: which is a detail that she doesn't remember. I mean
Speaker 1: maybe she remembers, but a detail that she didn't end
Speaker 1: up telling the two cops until but she tells her
Speaker 1: family later. It's like, I think, partly of repression and
Speaker 1: partly out of the way that like they framed these questions,
Speaker 1: so we basically get what I think, unfortunately is probably
Speaker 1: a very realistic depiction of what someone in that situation
Speaker 1: might go through. And she's sort of rescued from that
Speaker 1: room by her uncle Carlos. And I think that that's
Speaker 1: the scene where we sort of see Carlos as a
Speaker 1: as a cop and he's like, I know one, um,
Speaker 1: you know, and he doesn't justify it, but offers the
Speaker 1: cop perspective, the perspective that I think the book serves
Speaker 1: by like the people online who's like, well, I know
Speaker 1: a cop and he's nice when people when people are protesting,
Speaker 1: there's always the people on Facebook who are like, well,
Speaker 1: some cops are just trying to do a good job
Speaker 1: and do their job. And I think that's the perspective
Speaker 1: that Carlos voices, um, which isn't you know, a perspective
Speaker 1: that people deal with and interact with and have, And
Speaker 1: so I think it's worthwhile. I think it's worth And
Speaker 1: I thought it was interesting that in the book that's
Speaker 1: a perspective he holds at the beginning of the book
Speaker 1: and at the film's perspective holds at the end of
Speaker 1: the film. And I felt like we missed a lot
Speaker 1: of the growth from Uncle Carlos that we had in
Speaker 1: the book, and it made him seem like a cop apologist. Yes,
Speaker 1: And I think Davante helped him with that growth in
Speaker 1: a way that we didn't get in the in the film,
Speaker 1: because yeah, at the beginning of the story, he is
Speaker 1: sort of like she. He sort of acts as the
Speaker 1: cop apologist voice perspective. Um. Although one thing I don't
Speaker 1: want to jump ahead too much, but one thing that
Speaker 1: I was curious to know, you your your guys perspective
Speaker 1: on his very smart people in this movement. I've heard
Speaker 1: people being like, we have to reconcile the fact that,
Speaker 1: like the stories still end. I mean, the story still
Speaker 1: ends with King being arrested by the police, and that's
Speaker 1: a victory because King, you know, and I think that
Speaker 1: that is something that we culturally need to reconcile, like
Speaker 1: that is still a a victory for the story, which
Speaker 1: is the legal system working and functioning. And you know,
Speaker 1: people sometimes say when people when people protest and say,
Speaker 1: arrest the cops that killed in certain name here. I mean,
Speaker 1: that's still operating within a broken system. And I think
Speaker 1: people may criticize this book for not going far enough,
Speaker 1: although you know, it's still a young adult novel that
Speaker 1: raises these essential points that and perspectives that I think
Speaker 1: so many people haven't even engaged with in the first place.
Speaker 1: So I think, you know, maybe maybe that's not a
Speaker 1: necessary conversation, but it is one that I thought of
Speaker 1: and one that I thought maybe would be worth talking about.
Speaker 1: I mean, sociopaths do exist. Um, I don't think they
Speaker 1: are the perpetrators of most crimes. I think most crimes
Speaker 1: stem from desperation and from a lack of resources, and
Speaker 1: from a lack of education. But there are going to
Speaker 1: be serial killers who exist in the world, because psychopaths
Speaker 1: are a real thing, and some people kill people for fun. Um,
Speaker 1: some people, you know, enjoy doing terrible things to other people.
Speaker 1: Some people are serial rapists. But I don't know if
Speaker 1: you mean the billions of dollars that currently go towards
Speaker 1: the police to take care of what I think is
Speaker 1: generally a smaller portion of people than the people that
Speaker 1: the police are regularly called on. I think, um, at
Speaker 1: the moment, you call a police if you find like
Speaker 1: a dead body in an alley that has been stabbed
Speaker 1: multiple times, with like a note that says the dogs
Speaker 1: told me to do the best I have the dog killer.
Speaker 1: And you also call the police if a house party
Speaker 1: is too loud and it's midnight on a Wednesday, and
Speaker 1: maybe maybe those two people that you're calling should not
Speaker 1: be the same. Yes, I heartily agree. Um, when I
Speaker 1: when I was in college, actually there was a party
Speaker 1: that was broken up by the police and it was
Speaker 1: a predominantly black party and they used pepper spray inside
Speaker 1: a room. Um wait from my freshman year. It was
Speaker 1: a party. Um, I think it was at Harambe, which
Speaker 1: was the diversity house. I can't remember if it was
Speaker 1: at Harambe for sure for sure, but I remember I
Speaker 1: got two emails about it. One was from the black
Speaker 1: organization on campus that was sent to every black student,
Speaker 1: and then there was an email that was sent to
Speaker 1: the school at large that was like, hey, so there
Speaker 1: was an incident. And then the email from the black
Speaker 1: students are like, we cannot let this stand. They can't
Speaker 1: do this to us. This isn't right, and this doesn't
Speaker 1: happen to white people. And I will say that it
Speaker 1: didn't happen again in the four years that I was there.
Speaker 1: It happened like in November of my freshman year. But it, uh,
Speaker 1: it's still stuck with me. It's something I think about
Speaker 1: a lot. And it was like we didn't have large
Speaker 1: gatherings of black people at my high school because there
Speaker 1: weren't large group numbers of black people, and so some
Speaker 1: of the things that happened when you have black people
Speaker 1: gathering together in a in a predominantly white space, I
Speaker 1: was shielded from. And it was sort of my first
Speaker 1: instance of that, and I was like, oh, this is
Speaker 1: not a thing that just happens on TV. This is
Speaker 1: bad and could happen to me. Like if I had
Speaker 1: gone to that party, would I have been Okay? I
Speaker 1: don't know, um, And it was all fine, everybody was fine,
Speaker 1: nobody died. But I do think it is important to
Speaker 1: note that, like stuff like that still happens. And I
Speaker 1: think that with the issue of the cops being the
Speaker 1: victory in the book, I saw it more as or
Speaker 1: I tried to frame it at least as King not
Speaker 1: being in the community was the victory and the commun
Speaker 1: unity not being afraid to snitch was the victory. And
Speaker 1: they had this like great reverse I Am Spartacus moment
Speaker 1: where they were all like King did it, Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: King did it. He did it. It was him, and
Speaker 1: everybody was brave enough to stand up for their community
Speaker 1: and get King out of it. And I think that's
Speaker 1: what's important, because that in that moment is the thing
Speaker 1: that can lead to a breaking of the cycle, because
Speaker 1: you can't get out of the king lords. If King
Speaker 1: is there and it's beating you up, and it's setting
Speaker 1: your it is setting buildings on fire and all of
Speaker 1: that great stuff, great in quotes, uh, but it is
Speaker 1: a problem yet that this is sort of the system
Speaker 1: we have. I mean, I I do think King is
Speaker 1: a genuine subco path. Everything that he does seems indicative
Speaker 1: of I'm sure he had a very hard childhood too,
Speaker 1: but I also think he sets buildings on fire and
Speaker 1: beats his wife and uh kills children, and UM puts
Speaker 1: people in terrible, terrible positions. And I don't think that
Speaker 1: community can function if you have someone who is a
Speaker 1: sociopath to that extent in a position of power. And
Speaker 1: I do think to your point, Krama, you know they
Speaker 1: there's a lot of talk and the movement to defund
Speaker 1: the police about UM community community organizing and communities coming
Speaker 1: together to stop and help the dangers in their own
Speaker 1: community because they know it the best. Like King is
Speaker 1: the danger in that are not the only danger, but
Speaker 1: is the danger in that community, not Maverick, who is
Speaker 1: we'll talk about later, like has a very scary incident
Speaker 1: with the police. Is the police do not know who
Speaker 1: the danger is, so I to your I did see
Speaker 1: it that way too, of like, it's all of the
Speaker 1: community coming together to stop this threat um and that
Speaker 1: felt like the victory, not the police arresting him. It
Speaker 1: also reminded me a little bit of that classic map
Speaker 1: Bars comic from the NIB where it's like someone saying,
Speaker 1: like a surf being like, we should improve society somewhat,
Speaker 1: and then the guy being like, and yet do you
Speaker 1: participate in society? Curious which we live in. We live
Speaker 1: in society, so we do have to like function within
Speaker 1: the society, but we can still work for towards its improvement. Right.
Speaker 1: And the issue with calling for, say, an arrest to
Speaker 1: the cops that killed Brianna Taylor, for example, which as
Speaker 1: of recording this still has not happened. I think one
Speaker 1: has been fired, which is not what anyone asked for. Uh.
Speaker 1: It is a step, a minor positive step, but literally
Speaker 1: not the thing that anyone ask for. The problem is
Speaker 1: that if I kill someone, I get arrested, But if
Speaker 1: a cop kills someone, the cop has no repercussions. There
Speaker 1: were three cops in that room and only one of
Speaker 1: them has faced any repercussions, and not to the level
Speaker 1: of repercussions that a civilian would face. And the problem
Speaker 1: is that the cops are above the law. And that's
Speaker 1: sort of the issue where it's like, if we live
Speaker 1: in a society and we are participating in society, then
Speaker 1: cops need to be a part of society too. They
Speaker 1: don't get to be outside of society and then punish society.
Speaker 1: Isn't it crazy the idea that maybe the people who
Speaker 1: are enforcing the law with deadly weapons should be held
Speaker 1: to a higher standard than civilians. You know, we really
Speaker 1: shocked me when I realized how much training you is
Speaker 1: actually required to be a cop, because I believe it
Speaker 1: is lesson is required to become a beautician. Um. It
Speaker 1: is something like eighteen months worth of training, which strikes
Speaker 1: me as a very short amount of time to be
Speaker 1: given a gun and essentially no legal penalties if you
Speaker 1: kill someone with it does grow back. So I think
Speaker 1: that the training to become a police dog in some
Speaker 1: instances is longer than the training to become a police human.
Speaker 1: Oh those sweet dog. UM. I also think that in
Speaker 1: a reference to like what the end of the book
Speaker 1: is saying. I know we're jumping ahead, but you know
Speaker 1: they are. Starr comes into her power and into her voice.
Speaker 1: But that one fifteen gets off scott free, and so
Speaker 1: it is and obviously that you know the rest of
Speaker 1: the book happens, that there's more to talk about. But
Speaker 1: I do think that is the commentary on the system.
Speaker 1: It is not a happy ending in that story, and
Speaker 1: so you know, there are these small victories within this
Speaker 1: broken system, but it's still a broken system. That's our
Speaker 1: show for the week. Thank you so much for listening.
Speaker 1: I'm Danish Schwartz and you can find me on Twitter
Speaker 1: at Danis Schwartz with three z s. You can follow
Speaker 1: Jennifer Wright at Jen Ashley Right, Karama Donqua is at
Speaker 1: Karama Drama, Melissa Hunter is at Melissa f t W
Speaker 1: and Tan Tran is smart enough to have gotten off Twitter,
Speaker 1: but she is on Insta at Hank Tina. Our executive
Speaker 1: producer is Christopher Hessiotes and we're produced and edited by
Speaker 1: Mike John's Special thanks to David Wasserman. Next week we
Speaker 1: will continue our conversation about the hate you give and
Speaker 1: the week after that, we have a very special guest
Speaker 1: that I'm very excited for you to listen to. Okay,
Speaker 1: spoiler alert, it is the author herself, Angie Thomas, an incredible,
Speaker 1: brilliant human being. You're definitely gonna want to stay tuned.
Speaker 1: Uh and if you want to get a jump start
Speaker 1: on reading our next book, it is Brave New World,
Speaker 1: getting ready to pair with the Peacock original series. Popcorn
Speaker 1: Book Club is a production of I Heart Radio. See
Speaker 1: you next week.