1 00:00:00,600 --> 00:00:03,880 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you missed in history class from house 2 00:00:03,880 --> 00:00:14,240 Speaker 1: stop works dot com. Hello, and welcome to our podcast. 3 00:00:14,320 --> 00:00:18,439 Speaker 1: I'm Holly Frying and I'm Tracy V. Wilson. And uh, 4 00:00:18,480 --> 00:00:21,079 Speaker 1: have you ever had about of sleepwalking? I have never 5 00:00:21,160 --> 00:00:24,360 Speaker 1: had about of sleepwalking. My brother used to when he 6 00:00:24,440 --> 00:00:27,120 Speaker 1: was very small. My parents had to put a lock 7 00:00:27,720 --> 00:00:30,040 Speaker 1: on his door so that they could get in in 8 00:00:30,120 --> 00:00:32,839 Speaker 1: an emergency, but that he could not get out and 9 00:00:32,880 --> 00:00:36,960 Speaker 1: injure himself, which is germane to our podcast today. It 10 00:00:37,080 --> 00:00:42,319 Speaker 1: totally is. The sleepwalking defense in criminal trials is not 11 00:00:42,479 --> 00:00:47,360 Speaker 1: entirely uncommon in modern modern trials. Medical and legal experts 12 00:00:47,400 --> 00:00:50,760 Speaker 1: are continuing to study the validity of such claims. And 13 00:00:50,840 --> 00:00:53,000 Speaker 1: did you know sleepwalking crime is actually on the rise. 14 00:00:53,320 --> 00:00:55,920 Speaker 1: It doesn't surprise me. It's one of those things where 15 00:00:56,520 --> 00:00:59,760 Speaker 1: as as people become more aware of sleep disorders and 16 00:01:00,120 --> 00:01:05,000 Speaker 1: sleep walking disorders both there's both the getting diagnosed increase 17 00:01:05,760 --> 00:01:10,520 Speaker 1: and the use as a defense, whether accurate or not increase. Yeah, 18 00:01:10,560 --> 00:01:13,560 Speaker 1: And we also don't um know if there is a 19 00:01:13,600 --> 00:01:17,680 Speaker 1: cultural or social trigger. Some UH experts in the field 20 00:01:17,720 --> 00:01:19,880 Speaker 1: have posited that because we live in a sort of 21 00:01:19,880 --> 00:01:23,920 Speaker 1: a more nervous, anxiety laden culture, it's actually triggering more 22 00:01:23,959 --> 00:01:27,360 Speaker 1: people to have sleepwalking disorders and sleep disorders in general. 23 00:01:28,280 --> 00:01:30,640 Speaker 1: So we don't know the exact root of why those 24 00:01:30,640 --> 00:01:33,000 Speaker 1: are on the rise. Those three things are all factors. 25 00:01:33,880 --> 00:01:36,720 Speaker 1: But in eighteen forty six, it was completely unheard of 26 00:01:36,760 --> 00:01:39,640 Speaker 1: to claim sleepwalking as a defense. No no one had 27 00:01:39,880 --> 00:01:44,560 Speaker 1: used that ever until Albert J. Terrell, who was on 28 00:01:44,640 --> 00:01:48,120 Speaker 1: trial and his lawyer Rufus Choke, who took a really 29 00:01:48,200 --> 00:01:53,160 Speaker 1: unorthodox approach to defending his client, and it for the time, 30 00:01:53,400 --> 00:01:56,440 Speaker 1: it was so out of left field that it was 31 00:01:56,480 --> 00:01:59,600 Speaker 1: almost like that it wasn't me, Like, yeah, you saw 32 00:01:59,640 --> 00:02:01,960 Speaker 1: me do it, but that was not me. But nobody 33 00:02:01,960 --> 00:02:04,120 Speaker 1: did see him do it comes up in the trial. 34 00:02:04,840 --> 00:02:10,800 Speaker 1: So the crime took place on October and Mrs Mary 35 00:02:10,880 --> 00:02:14,280 Speaker 1: and Bickford's body was found in a ceed boarding house 36 00:02:14,800 --> 00:02:17,960 Speaker 1: in Beacon Hill in Boston. She was only twenty one 37 00:02:18,280 --> 00:02:20,840 Speaker 1: and her body was found on the bed, partially on 38 00:02:20,880 --> 00:02:23,680 Speaker 1: the bed, partially on the floor. Uh. There are different 39 00:02:23,760 --> 00:02:27,560 Speaker 1: illustrations you can see online that kind of um put 40 00:02:27,560 --> 00:02:29,640 Speaker 1: her in slightly different places, and there's an account that 41 00:02:29,680 --> 00:02:32,040 Speaker 1: comes up in the trial really described part of her 42 00:02:32,080 --> 00:02:35,000 Speaker 1: body being on the floor. She was in a nightgown, 43 00:02:35,680 --> 00:02:37,960 Speaker 1: and she had a wound to the neck that had 44 00:02:38,040 --> 00:02:41,960 Speaker 1: nearly decapitated her. Uh. The bed had been set on fire, 45 00:02:42,000 --> 00:02:44,640 Speaker 1: as well as two other places in the room, and 46 00:02:44,639 --> 00:02:48,040 Speaker 1: Bickford's hair and skin were singed and burnt. Uh. An 47 00:02:48,040 --> 00:02:50,240 Speaker 1: earring was missing from one of her ears, which was 48 00:02:50,240 --> 00:02:52,480 Speaker 1: split open as though it had been pulled out, and 49 00:02:52,520 --> 00:02:54,519 Speaker 1: there was a straight razor at the foot of the bed. 50 00:02:54,760 --> 00:02:57,320 Speaker 1: Which is a pretty grizzly scene. It is pretty grizzly 51 00:02:57,400 --> 00:03:00,320 Speaker 1: and and a lot. There's a lot going on there. 52 00:03:01,400 --> 00:03:04,760 Speaker 1: Albert Terrell had been seen with her earlier that evening, 53 00:03:04,880 --> 00:03:07,960 Speaker 1: and a witness account also described him to speaking with 54 00:03:08,000 --> 00:03:11,000 Speaker 1: a stable keeper to try to get transport away from 55 00:03:11,000 --> 00:03:13,800 Speaker 1: the city. Now, to give a little bit of background 56 00:03:13,800 --> 00:03:17,600 Speaker 1: on these two, because this was not appairing that was 57 00:03:17,639 --> 00:03:21,600 Speaker 1: unknown already. That was not her first encounter with Terrell 58 00:03:21,720 --> 00:03:24,640 Speaker 1: by any means, so they were actually known to be 59 00:03:24,720 --> 00:03:28,320 Speaker 1: engaged in an affair. Both of them were married. Bickford, 60 00:03:28,320 --> 00:03:30,880 Speaker 1: who also went by Maria and some other pseudonyms at 61 00:03:30,919 --> 00:03:33,959 Speaker 1: different times, had gotten a taste for city life when 62 00:03:34,000 --> 00:03:37,760 Speaker 1: she was visiting relatives, and she actually left her husband, 63 00:03:37,880 --> 00:03:41,120 Speaker 1: who was in Maine, to stay in the city permanently, 64 00:03:41,960 --> 00:03:43,560 Speaker 1: and she had even written him a letter and said, 65 00:03:43,600 --> 00:03:45,880 Speaker 1: you can come and live in the city, but I'm 66 00:03:46,120 --> 00:03:48,400 Speaker 1: and we'll be husband and wife, but I'm gonna need 67 00:03:48,440 --> 00:03:50,320 Speaker 1: my freedom, kind of saying like, I will play the 68 00:03:50,320 --> 00:03:52,240 Speaker 1: part of wife, but I'm not really married to you 69 00:03:52,880 --> 00:03:56,839 Speaker 1: in my heart. Uh. So, at one point, her husband, James, 70 00:03:56,880 --> 00:03:59,920 Speaker 1: actually traveled to Boston to look for her, discovered her 71 00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:03,200 Speaker 1: working in a brothel, and headed back to Maine by himself, 72 00:04:03,920 --> 00:04:06,800 Speaker 1: and in corporateceedings, the prosecution stated at one point that 73 00:04:06,840 --> 00:04:10,160 Speaker 1: she had actually moved to Boston with a paramore that 74 00:04:10,240 --> 00:04:12,280 Speaker 1: she had presumably met on that first visit to the 75 00:04:12,320 --> 00:04:15,840 Speaker 1: city that was obviously not her husband. Uh And then 76 00:04:15,880 --> 00:04:18,840 Speaker 1: that man deserted her, which is what led her to prostitution. 77 00:04:19,279 --> 00:04:22,680 Speaker 1: So Mary had met Albert Terrell while working and the 78 00:04:22,680 --> 00:04:25,920 Speaker 1: two of them had started a very intense relationship. People 79 00:04:25,960 --> 00:04:30,360 Speaker 1: described it as both passionate and volatile. They traveled together 80 00:04:30,440 --> 00:04:33,640 Speaker 1: as a married couple, even though she was already married 81 00:04:33,720 --> 00:04:36,080 Speaker 1: and he also was married and had a wife and 82 00:04:36,080 --> 00:04:40,919 Speaker 1: a family. Uh. And on September forty five, which was 83 00:04:40,960 --> 00:04:44,200 Speaker 1: one month before the murder, Terrell had actually been charged 84 00:04:44,200 --> 00:04:47,160 Speaker 1: with adultery. His trial was delayed for half a year, 85 00:04:47,520 --> 00:04:50,240 Speaker 1: for six months after friends and relatives and even his 86 00:04:50,320 --> 00:04:54,279 Speaker 1: wife actually petitioned the court to delay the proceedings because 87 00:04:54,320 --> 00:04:56,719 Speaker 1: they wanted to all work together to help Albert reform 88 00:04:56,839 --> 00:04:59,320 Speaker 1: his ways. And they thought if he could, you know, 89 00:04:59,400 --> 00:05:01,320 Speaker 1: prove he was a good citizen for six months and 90 00:05:01,360 --> 00:05:04,280 Speaker 1: then go back on the adultery charge, even if he 91 00:05:04,720 --> 00:05:06,480 Speaker 1: um was found guilty of it, they would be a 92 00:05:06,520 --> 00:05:09,080 Speaker 1: little more lenient because he was clearly trying to mend 93 00:05:09,080 --> 00:05:13,640 Speaker 1: his ways. And the delay was granted, and then Albert 94 00:05:14,440 --> 00:05:19,039 Speaker 1: was released after you know, posting bond and he went 95 00:05:19,240 --> 00:05:23,360 Speaker 1: right back to Marian big first. So that's sort of 96 00:05:23,400 --> 00:05:28,480 Speaker 1: the history of of them as a couple. When Terrell 97 00:05:28,960 --> 00:05:32,640 Speaker 1: ran from Boston after the murder happened, he went to 98 00:05:32,720 --> 00:05:36,560 Speaker 1: hide with relatives in Weymouth. Then he went north to 99 00:05:36,640 --> 00:05:40,160 Speaker 1: Canada to get passage aboard a ship to go to Liverpool. 100 00:05:40,920 --> 00:05:43,599 Speaker 1: That voyage had to turn back because of bad weather, 101 00:05:43,760 --> 00:05:46,000 Speaker 1: and he got on a second ship in New York 102 00:05:46,160 --> 00:05:49,800 Speaker 1: to go to New Orleans. On December five, he was 103 00:05:49,920 --> 00:05:52,880 Speaker 1: arrested after a Louisian authorities got a tip that he 104 00:05:52,960 --> 00:05:55,800 Speaker 1: was aboard a vessel in the Gulf. So at that 105 00:05:55,839 --> 00:05:58,039 Speaker 1: point he's in custody and he was transported back to 106 00:05:58,040 --> 00:06:02,600 Speaker 1: Boston for the trial, and he hired Terrell, we should note, 107 00:06:02,960 --> 00:06:05,200 Speaker 1: was not a poor man. He had some wealth. His 108 00:06:05,279 --> 00:06:08,760 Speaker 1: family was well established in the shoe manufactured trade. And 109 00:06:08,800 --> 00:06:12,400 Speaker 1: he hired rufus Choate, who was a protege of Daniel Webster, 110 00:06:12,480 --> 00:06:15,760 Speaker 1: as his defense. And Choke was already a very high 111 00:06:15,760 --> 00:06:18,919 Speaker 1: profile figure with both the political and legal career. He 112 00:06:18,960 --> 00:06:21,560 Speaker 1: had served on the Massachusetts State House of Representatives and 113 00:06:21,600 --> 00:06:23,599 Speaker 1: the state Senate. He had been a member of the 114 00:06:23,600 --> 00:06:29,280 Speaker 1: twenty three Congress. He was well respected in legal circles. 115 00:06:30,200 --> 00:06:33,120 Speaker 1: Uh So it was really like the equivalent of hiring 116 00:06:33,240 --> 00:06:37,040 Speaker 1: a pretty heavy hitter lawyer. Today, everybody would have known 117 00:06:37,040 --> 00:06:40,719 Speaker 1: who he was. And Choke conceived of this novel defense 118 00:06:40,760 --> 00:06:44,200 Speaker 1: for his client, claiming that in fact, Albert was a 119 00:06:44,240 --> 00:06:47,080 Speaker 1: somnambulist and that he performed the entire murder in a 120 00:06:47,120 --> 00:06:50,560 Speaker 1: sleepwalking trance. Now that wasn't his only defense. He also 121 00:06:50,600 --> 00:06:53,720 Speaker 1: tried to discredit the possibility that he had even committed 122 00:06:53,720 --> 00:06:56,520 Speaker 1: the murder. But that was sort of one of the 123 00:06:56,600 --> 00:06:59,800 Speaker 1: new and novel ways that he defended his client right. 124 00:06:59,880 --> 00:07:05,080 Speaker 1: The proceedings started on March six, and according to court records, 125 00:07:05,160 --> 00:07:10,760 Speaker 1: the judges were judges Wild, Hubbard, and Dewey. A Judge 126 00:07:10,760 --> 00:07:13,480 Speaker 1: Shaw was also scheduled to be there, but he was outsick. 127 00:07:14,600 --> 00:07:18,600 Speaker 1: Representing the Commonwealth was Samuel D. Parker and for Terrell 128 00:07:18,960 --> 00:07:23,200 Speaker 1: rufus Choate and and us An A by Meryl Esquire. 129 00:07:24,160 --> 00:07:28,160 Speaker 1: Jurors were very quickly selected that morning. If you read 130 00:07:28,200 --> 00:07:30,880 Speaker 1: the Boston Daily Times account, it seems like they really 131 00:07:30,920 --> 00:07:34,600 Speaker 1: whipped through like war, dear and additional questioning really really quickly. 132 00:07:34,640 --> 00:07:37,520 Speaker 1: It took about half an hour, according to that reporter's 133 00:07:37,600 --> 00:07:40,400 Speaker 1: account of it, to select the entire jury, which if 134 00:07:40,440 --> 00:07:43,400 Speaker 1: you have ever done jury duty, it never takes just 135 00:07:43,440 --> 00:07:45,800 Speaker 1: half an hour to get everybody settled, so that was 136 00:07:45,840 --> 00:07:52,440 Speaker 1: pretty expedient. And then Parker's opening arguments uh included a 137 00:07:52,480 --> 00:07:55,120 Speaker 1: plea to the jurors to disregard any bias that they 138 00:07:55,200 --> 00:07:58,280 Speaker 1: might have as a result of hearing rumors about the 139 00:07:58,320 --> 00:08:01,360 Speaker 1: deceased Bickford's fashion as a woman of the night was 140 00:08:01,400 --> 00:08:05,160 Speaker 1: not really helping the case, but he openly acknowledged what 141 00:08:05,880 --> 00:08:09,600 Speaker 1: he called quote her depraved character. But he reminded the 142 00:08:09,680 --> 00:08:12,200 Speaker 1: jurors present that the law protects even the wicked as 143 00:08:12,240 --> 00:08:14,480 Speaker 1: well as the good when it comes to murder. Parker 144 00:08:14,520 --> 00:08:16,760 Speaker 1: also asserted that Terrell, who was the son of a 145 00:08:16,800 --> 00:08:20,960 Speaker 1: really successful shoe manufacturer, had had to get married very 146 00:08:21,040 --> 00:08:24,040 Speaker 1: young at the age of eighteen because he had probably 147 00:08:24,080 --> 00:08:28,160 Speaker 1: gotten his girlfriend pregnant. He stated, the cause of so 148 00:08:28,240 --> 00:08:31,440 Speaker 1: early a marriage in his minority, I need not state 149 00:08:32,040 --> 00:08:34,520 Speaker 1: that's part of an overall scheme to kind of chip 150 00:08:34,559 --> 00:08:38,760 Speaker 1: away at Terrell's moral image, showing that he was impetuous 151 00:08:38,800 --> 00:08:44,120 Speaker 1: and given to impulsive and wanton behavior. Parker further claimed 152 00:08:44,120 --> 00:08:46,840 Speaker 1: that Bickford had actually been afraid of Terrell after his 153 00:08:46,920 --> 00:08:49,840 Speaker 1: adultery arrest, because she was scared that he would be 154 00:08:49,880 --> 00:08:52,640 Speaker 1: angry that their relationship had gotten him into such trouble, 155 00:08:52,960 --> 00:08:54,800 Speaker 1: because at that point it was very public what was 156 00:08:54,840 --> 00:08:58,960 Speaker 1: going on, and again there many many people petitioning the courts, 157 00:08:59,040 --> 00:09:03,120 Speaker 1: so everyone knew his business at that point. The prosecution 158 00:09:03,160 --> 00:09:06,160 Speaker 1: also painted a picture of the events leading up to 159 00:09:06,200 --> 00:09:10,240 Speaker 1: the discovery of Bickford's body. Uh First, it mentioned the 160 00:09:10,280 --> 00:09:12,520 Speaker 1: pair being seen together in the days and on the 161 00:09:12,640 --> 00:09:16,600 Speaker 1: night leading up to the murder. Two Uh describes a 162 00:09:16,600 --> 00:09:19,560 Speaker 1: faint shriek coming from Bickford's room early in the morning. 163 00:09:20,320 --> 00:09:23,680 Speaker 1: Three the sound of something falling to the floor for 164 00:09:23,920 --> 00:09:26,960 Speaker 1: a person running then tumbling down the stairs, then being 165 00:09:27,000 --> 00:09:31,199 Speaker 1: heard leaving the house. Five was a groan or scream 166 00:09:31,240 --> 00:09:34,520 Speaker 1: of fire, and residence in a nearby room seeing smoke 167 00:09:34,559 --> 00:09:38,080 Speaker 1: come under their door. And then six Mrs Lawrence, who 168 00:09:38,440 --> 00:09:42,160 Speaker 1: uh was of the family living below those rooms, coming 169 00:09:42,200 --> 00:09:44,720 Speaker 1: up the stairs to find burning bedclothes piled at the 170 00:09:44,720 --> 00:09:47,040 Speaker 1: top of the stairs and against the door of the 171 00:09:47,040 --> 00:09:50,680 Speaker 1: other boarder's room. And then seven help arriving in the 172 00:09:50,760 --> 00:09:54,079 Speaker 1: room of Mrs Bickford being extinguished because it was on fire. 173 00:09:54,559 --> 00:09:57,000 Speaker 1: And then the realization that an item that had been 174 00:09:57,040 --> 00:09:59,520 Speaker 1: stumbled over in the rush to put out the fires 175 00:09:59,760 --> 00:10:01,640 Speaker 1: there the fire in the closet, on the bed and 176 00:10:01,720 --> 00:10:04,480 Speaker 1: in a clothing trunk, was in fact the body of 177 00:10:04,480 --> 00:10:07,200 Speaker 1: Mary Bickford. So at first they didn't realize there had 178 00:10:07,200 --> 00:10:08,679 Speaker 1: been a murder. They just need there was a fire 179 00:10:08,679 --> 00:10:10,600 Speaker 1: which they were putting out, and then they realized, like 180 00:10:11,200 --> 00:10:15,760 Speaker 1: this person has been gruesomely killed. There was additional evidence 181 00:10:15,920 --> 00:10:19,320 Speaker 1: also there was no fire in the fireplace, so it 182 00:10:19,360 --> 00:10:23,080 Speaker 1: could not be explained as an accident. An accident of 183 00:10:23,160 --> 00:10:25,520 Speaker 1: the fire used in the room getting out of control. 184 00:10:26,240 --> 00:10:29,440 Speaker 1: A man's apparel which consisted of a vest, drawers, socks, 185 00:10:29,480 --> 00:10:33,040 Speaker 1: and a cane were found in the room. The razor 186 00:10:33,080 --> 00:10:35,720 Speaker 1: that was found near the body didn't belong to anyone 187 00:10:35,760 --> 00:10:38,520 Speaker 1: who was in the house. Uh. And then there was 188 00:10:38,640 --> 00:10:41,760 Speaker 1: the interchange at the stable that we talked about earlier. 189 00:10:42,760 --> 00:10:45,440 Speaker 1: Terre Terrell was reported to have told the man that 190 00:10:45,480 --> 00:10:48,679 Speaker 1: he was quote in a scrape about a girl. And 191 00:10:48,720 --> 00:10:53,400 Speaker 1: then after that opening on Parker's part, witnesses were called 192 00:10:53,400 --> 00:10:55,920 Speaker 1: for the prosecution and there were many called. We won't 193 00:10:55,920 --> 00:10:59,000 Speaker 1: list all of them, but some of the really German 194 00:10:59,160 --> 00:11:03,520 Speaker 1: points that sort of brought in new information or corroborated 195 00:11:03,559 --> 00:11:08,520 Speaker 1: specific elements of information that are important to the sleepwalking angle. So, first, 196 00:11:08,800 --> 00:11:12,160 Speaker 1: job As Pratt, who was the coroner, confirmed statements from 197 00:11:12,160 --> 00:11:14,200 Speaker 1: the opening and added that he had also found a 198 00:11:14,280 --> 00:11:16,920 Speaker 1: ring in the room with the inscription A J T 199 00:11:16,920 --> 00:11:22,280 Speaker 1: T M A B presumably Albert H. Terrell to Maryan Pickford. 200 00:11:22,440 --> 00:11:25,160 Speaker 1: And Pratt had also found keys in the pocket of 201 00:11:25,160 --> 00:11:27,280 Speaker 1: the vest that was in the room, which unlocked of 202 00:11:27,320 --> 00:11:29,880 Speaker 1: a lease and a trunk which were believed to have 203 00:11:29,920 --> 00:11:34,360 Speaker 1: belonged to Terrell. Another witness was Dr Joseph Moriarty, and 204 00:11:34,480 --> 00:11:37,720 Speaker 1: he talked about the wound to Bickford's neck as being 205 00:11:37,800 --> 00:11:41,400 Speaker 1: from ear to ear and separating the larn x and 206 00:11:41,559 --> 00:11:44,280 Speaker 1: the blood vessels. He also said that it would be 207 00:11:44,320 --> 00:11:48,480 Speaker 1: possible to for a person to perform this at one 208 00:11:48,559 --> 00:11:51,760 Speaker 1: stroke on herself, and he stated he never knew a 209 00:11:51,840 --> 00:11:55,880 Speaker 1: person to commit murder on another person with a razor, 210 00:11:56,360 --> 00:12:01,439 Speaker 1: so it's kind of a weird witness or the prosecution 211 00:12:01,640 --> 00:12:04,599 Speaker 1: it is. And I was looking over the notes of 212 00:12:04,640 --> 00:12:07,120 Speaker 1: the case that were published in the Boston Daily Times, 213 00:12:07,160 --> 00:12:10,200 Speaker 1: and I kept rereading that passage, thinking did they really 214 00:12:10,200 --> 00:12:11,920 Speaker 1: call a witness that said she could have done it 215 00:12:11,960 --> 00:12:15,640 Speaker 1: to herself? But they really did for a reason I 216 00:12:15,679 --> 00:12:19,400 Speaker 1: can't fathom, although I think their initial plan was just 217 00:12:19,440 --> 00:12:24,079 Speaker 1: to describe the severity of the wound, so he may 218 00:12:24,160 --> 00:12:26,600 Speaker 1: or may not have surprised them with those additional comments. 219 00:12:27,600 --> 00:12:30,400 Speaker 1: They also called a Joel Lawrence, who owned the house 220 00:12:30,400 --> 00:12:33,520 Speaker 1: where Mary was killed, and he confirmed confirmed that a 221 00:12:33,559 --> 00:12:35,760 Speaker 1: cravat that was found in the burning room was one 222 00:12:35,800 --> 00:12:39,800 Speaker 1: that he had seen Terrell where previously. There was also 223 00:12:40,000 --> 00:12:44,440 Speaker 1: James Fulham who was the stable keeper, and he said 224 00:12:44,440 --> 00:12:46,760 Speaker 1: that Terrell had told him that somebody had come into 225 00:12:46,760 --> 00:12:50,959 Speaker 1: the room and tried to murder him. So we're establishing 226 00:12:50,960 --> 00:12:56,640 Speaker 1: a lot of incongruent comments on Terrell's part. Additional witnesses 227 00:12:56,679 --> 00:12:59,480 Speaker 1: were called, primarily just to corroborate what had been said 228 00:12:59,520 --> 00:13:02,040 Speaker 1: in the opening, like the the list of things that 229 00:13:02,040 --> 00:13:06,360 Speaker 1: happened leading up to the discovery and uh. Several were 230 00:13:06,440 --> 00:13:09,160 Speaker 1: called just to establish the relationship between the deceased and 231 00:13:09,160 --> 00:13:13,640 Speaker 1: the accused is being romantic and volatile and nature. There's 232 00:13:13,679 --> 00:13:17,520 Speaker 1: also the testimony of Mrs mary Head, and she described 233 00:13:17,559 --> 00:13:21,800 Speaker 1: an odd encounter with with Terrell during which he seemed 234 00:13:21,840 --> 00:13:24,560 Speaker 1: out of sorts and almost asleep. So there was also 235 00:13:24,640 --> 00:13:28,199 Speaker 1: the testimony of Mrs Mary Head who described an odd 236 00:13:28,320 --> 00:13:32,000 Speaker 1: encounter with Terrell during which he seemed out of sorts 237 00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:35,200 Speaker 1: and almost asleep, and he also made a bizarre sound 238 00:13:35,280 --> 00:13:38,440 Speaker 1: with his throat. Do you know more about that? I do. 239 00:13:38,559 --> 00:13:41,360 Speaker 1: It will come up, It will come up. Uh. Just 240 00:13:41,400 --> 00:13:44,960 Speaker 1: remember that the opening argument for the defense had some 241 00:13:45,040 --> 00:13:47,440 Speaker 1: interesting points, and it was delivered not by Mr Choke 242 00:13:47,520 --> 00:13:51,000 Speaker 1: but by his associate, Mr Meryl, and he one of 243 00:13:51,000 --> 00:13:54,800 Speaker 1: the quotes from his opening is it does not follow 244 00:13:54,880 --> 00:13:57,640 Speaker 1: that because a body has been found exhibiting indications of 245 00:13:57,720 --> 00:14:00,600 Speaker 1: violent death, that a murder has therefore been comming did. 246 00:14:00,840 --> 00:14:03,560 Speaker 1: His argument was very focused on the beyond reasonable doubt 247 00:14:03,600 --> 00:14:07,040 Speaker 1: angle of finding guilt, and he suggested that the clothing 248 00:14:07,080 --> 00:14:08,960 Speaker 1: found in the room could have belonged to another man, 249 00:14:09,679 --> 00:14:11,760 Speaker 1: or it could have been Terrell's, but because he was 250 00:14:11,800 --> 00:14:13,880 Speaker 1: known to stay with Bickford quite often, it could have 251 00:14:13,880 --> 00:14:16,040 Speaker 1: been left there at any time, not necessarily the night 252 00:14:16,040 --> 00:14:19,920 Speaker 1: of the murder. He also wanted to dispel the idea 253 00:14:20,040 --> 00:14:23,760 Speaker 1: that that running meant that he was guilty, so he asked, 254 00:14:23,800 --> 00:14:27,320 Speaker 1: are not innocent men often being often afraid of being 255 00:14:27,360 --> 00:14:30,880 Speaker 1: thought guilty. Meryl also read a list of cases where 256 00:14:30,920 --> 00:14:35,040 Speaker 1: men had been found guilty and executed entirely on circumstantial evidence. 257 00:14:35,560 --> 00:14:38,960 Speaker 1: So again they're building multiple angles to the case, and 258 00:14:39,000 --> 00:14:40,800 Speaker 1: one is that no one actually saw him do it. 259 00:14:41,280 --> 00:14:44,720 Speaker 1: He also asserted that if Terrell had wanted to kill Bickford, 260 00:14:44,760 --> 00:14:48,560 Speaker 1: he had ample opportunity in their travels together before this 261 00:14:48,640 --> 00:14:52,240 Speaker 1: particular night. There was also a little bit of a 262 00:14:52,320 --> 00:14:56,880 Speaker 1: character assassination going on against Bickford. She was characterized by 263 00:14:56,920 --> 00:15:00,320 Speaker 1: Maryland the opening as something of a beguiling siren, and 264 00:15:00,360 --> 00:15:03,120 Speaker 1: that she used her wiles to infatuate Terrell, and that's 265 00:15:03,120 --> 00:15:05,680 Speaker 1: what caused him to leave behind his family and turned 266 00:15:05,680 --> 00:15:09,680 Speaker 1: to her. So after all of those layers of defense, 267 00:15:10,240 --> 00:15:14,960 Speaker 1: Merrill introduced the somnambulism defense, orating at length about the 268 00:15:15,080 --> 00:15:18,360 Speaker 1: nature of the condition and reading a variety of cases 269 00:15:18,360 --> 00:15:21,480 Speaker 1: and medical studies to support what he was trying to say. 270 00:15:22,240 --> 00:15:25,400 Speaker 1: And according to the Boston Daily Times, Merrill's opening lasted 271 00:15:25,440 --> 00:15:27,640 Speaker 1: two hours and forty five minutes. There was a lunch 272 00:15:27,680 --> 00:15:30,880 Speaker 1: break in the middle, and according to the reporter, was 273 00:15:31,040 --> 00:15:36,360 Speaker 1: quote full of ability and research throughout, so he was impressive, 274 00:15:36,400 --> 00:15:39,280 Speaker 1: apparently in his open right. And then witnesses for the 275 00:15:39,320 --> 00:15:43,080 Speaker 1: defense were called, the first of which was Mrs Nabby Tyrrell, 276 00:15:44,120 --> 00:15:47,360 Speaker 1: who was the widow of Leonard Terrell and the mother 277 00:15:47,400 --> 00:15:50,360 Speaker 1: of the defendant, and she testified that Albert had been 278 00:15:50,560 --> 00:15:52,560 Speaker 1: quote in the habit of getting up in his sleep 279 00:15:52,640 --> 00:15:55,080 Speaker 1: since he was four or five years old, and she 280 00:15:55,240 --> 00:15:58,000 Speaker 1: described several episodes from the time he was tiny until 281 00:15:58,120 --> 00:16:01,360 Speaker 1: he um was a teenager, and then was a young 282 00:16:01,400 --> 00:16:03,760 Speaker 1: man on his own and left so the time he 283 00:16:03,840 --> 00:16:08,080 Speaker 1: lived with her, she described multiple episodes where he would 284 00:16:08,120 --> 00:16:11,760 Speaker 1: go on walkabouts and do things completely asleep. Albert's brother, 285 00:16:11,920 --> 00:16:15,880 Speaker 1: Leonard B. Terrell, also gave testimony that Albert was prone 286 00:16:15,880 --> 00:16:18,280 Speaker 1: to wakeful episodes while he was still asleep, and that 287 00:16:18,400 --> 00:16:21,600 Speaker 1: during some of them he quote clenched hold of me 288 00:16:21,840 --> 00:16:24,880 Speaker 1: very hard and it was difficult to force his hands 289 00:16:24,920 --> 00:16:30,760 Speaker 1: off of me. Additionally, family and neighbors of the Terrell 290 00:16:30,840 --> 00:16:33,280 Speaker 1: family were called to testify that they had also seen 291 00:16:33,280 --> 00:16:37,400 Speaker 1: Albert in somnambulist states, some even asserting that they had 292 00:16:37,400 --> 00:16:40,040 Speaker 1: interacted with him during these events and found him able 293 00:16:40,080 --> 00:16:43,560 Speaker 1: to speak and even answer questions, but still seem asleep. 294 00:16:44,280 --> 00:16:49,600 Speaker 1: The defense attempted to introduce a complaint mentioned by Mary Bickford, 295 00:16:49,760 --> 00:16:52,400 Speaker 1: that Terrell had at one point struck her across the 296 00:16:52,440 --> 00:16:56,200 Speaker 1: breast forcefully while he was asleep, but it was ruled 297 00:16:56,240 --> 00:17:00,000 Speaker 1: out as quote coming within the rule of of declaration, 298 00:17:00,520 --> 00:17:03,640 Speaker 1: so they couldn't get a sworn testimony from the deceased 299 00:17:03,720 --> 00:17:08,160 Speaker 1: to back up this claim. Uh and most witnesses also 300 00:17:08,200 --> 00:17:10,719 Speaker 1: were used to establish the idea that Albert was in 301 00:17:10,760 --> 00:17:14,120 Speaker 1: fact really quite fond of Mary and treated her very kindly, 302 00:17:14,160 --> 00:17:17,040 Speaker 1: that he was genuinely in love with her. UH and 303 00:17:17,080 --> 00:17:20,639 Speaker 1: a doctor E. O. Finney was called there were several 304 00:17:20,640 --> 00:17:23,879 Speaker 1: doctors called for the defense, but he testified that the 305 00:17:23,920 --> 00:17:28,520 Speaker 1: fatal wound could have been suicide or murder. Witness doctor 306 00:17:28,600 --> 00:17:31,720 Speaker 1: Walter Channing also testified that he had knowledge of women 307 00:17:31,760 --> 00:17:35,160 Speaker 1: committing suicide in this manner and had also read about 308 00:17:35,160 --> 00:17:39,000 Speaker 1: it happening just in his career studies and in you know, 309 00:17:39,359 --> 00:17:43,920 Speaker 1: um journals and staying on abreast of the information of 310 00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:47,639 Speaker 1: the time. Several other doctors were called to corroborate the 311 00:17:47,720 --> 00:17:50,320 Speaker 1: argument that a person could easily commit a murder while 312 00:17:50,320 --> 00:17:53,959 Speaker 1: sleep walking, and one thing that Choke and his associates 313 00:17:54,000 --> 00:17:58,320 Speaker 1: repeatedly established was that when Albert was sleepwalking, he would 314 00:17:58,320 --> 00:18:02,000 Speaker 1: make an odd vocal sound similar to the one described 315 00:18:02,040 --> 00:18:05,840 Speaker 1: by Mrs Mary Head when she was on the stand 316 00:18:05,880 --> 00:18:08,359 Speaker 1: as a witness for the prosecution. So they kind of 317 00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:11,480 Speaker 1: artfully linked that back to do you remember the other 318 00:18:11,520 --> 00:18:14,480 Speaker 1: person that said he seemed really odd and made a 319 00:18:14,520 --> 00:18:16,840 Speaker 1: weird clicking sound of his throat. That's what he does 320 00:18:16,880 --> 00:18:20,440 Speaker 1: when he sleepwalks. We've established he has like an ability 321 00:18:20,480 --> 00:18:24,720 Speaker 1: to sleep walk and do things in his sleep. So 322 00:18:24,800 --> 00:18:30,640 Speaker 1: on Friday, March six, the defense made closing arguments shouts. 323 00:18:30,680 --> 00:18:35,840 Speaker 1: Closing statement was six hours long. Yeah, all day pretty much. 324 00:18:36,400 --> 00:18:39,680 Speaker 1: I feel like that's a filibuster almost. He was known 325 00:18:39,760 --> 00:18:42,480 Speaker 1: as an orator, uh, And there are some accounts to 326 00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:44,800 Speaker 1: talk about how astounding it is that he could go 327 00:18:44,840 --> 00:18:47,560 Speaker 1: on for such length. But he never seemed to lose 328 00:18:47,600 --> 00:18:50,800 Speaker 1: the thread or focus of his speeches. So he had 329 00:18:50,840 --> 00:18:52,439 Speaker 1: a lot to say, and it took him six hours 330 00:18:52,440 --> 00:18:56,560 Speaker 1: to say it. Yes, his his testimony included the following, 331 00:18:57,560 --> 00:19:00,879 Speaker 1: how far does the testimony lead you? Did any human 332 00:19:00,920 --> 00:19:04,320 Speaker 1: beings see the prisoners strike the blow? No? Did any 333 00:19:04,400 --> 00:19:06,879 Speaker 1: human beings see him in that house after nine o'clock 334 00:19:06,920 --> 00:19:10,399 Speaker 1: the previous evening? No? Did any human beings see him 335 00:19:10,480 --> 00:19:13,760 Speaker 1: run from the house? Know did any human beings see 336 00:19:13,840 --> 00:19:16,359 Speaker 1: him with a drop of blood upon his hands? No? 337 00:19:17,160 --> 00:19:19,399 Speaker 1: Can anyone say that on that night he was not 338 00:19:19,640 --> 00:19:23,000 Speaker 1: laboring under a disease to which he was subject from 339 00:19:23,040 --> 00:19:26,520 Speaker 1: his youth. No? Has he ever made a confession of 340 00:19:26,520 --> 00:19:30,200 Speaker 1: the deed to the two friend or thief taker? Not 341 00:19:30,320 --> 00:19:35,720 Speaker 1: one word? So Uh. That was part of the six 342 00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:40,359 Speaker 1: hour closing statement and choke finished at about in the afternoon, 343 00:19:40,440 --> 00:19:43,560 Speaker 1: and after a brief recess, Mr Parker made his closing argument, 344 00:19:44,080 --> 00:19:47,080 Speaker 1: summating his case pretty much just repeating what had come 345 00:19:47,160 --> 00:19:50,200 Speaker 1: up throughout the trial, and he wrapped up at six 346 00:19:50,280 --> 00:19:54,600 Speaker 1: fifty and Albert Terrell waived his option to address the 347 00:19:54,680 --> 00:19:59,639 Speaker 1: jury and the court was adjourned until Saturday the following day. 348 00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:04,040 Speaker 1: On Saturday morning, Judge Dewey addressed the jury at length 349 00:20:04,800 --> 00:20:09,280 Speaker 1: on the somnambulism issue. He said, quote, medical testimony is 350 00:20:09,400 --> 00:20:12,000 Speaker 1: very properly admitted in these cases, but it should be 351 00:20:12,040 --> 00:20:16,040 Speaker 1: weighed carefully. It is dangerous to admit the possession of 352 00:20:16,040 --> 00:20:19,320 Speaker 1: this disease. Left in the reveries of our brains. The 353 00:20:19,320 --> 00:20:24,520 Speaker 1: possessors might commit deeds which in others would be high crimes. 354 00:20:24,600 --> 00:20:28,840 Speaker 1: So after just two hours of deliberation, at ten minutes 355 00:20:28,880 --> 00:20:31,760 Speaker 1: to one o'clock, the jury returned with their verdict, which 356 00:20:31,960 --> 00:20:35,760 Speaker 1: was not guilty, and the foreman of the jury actually 357 00:20:35,800 --> 00:20:38,440 Speaker 1: stated though that the question and I quote the question 358 00:20:38,480 --> 00:20:42,240 Speaker 1: of somnambulism had not entered into the consideration of the jury. 359 00:20:42,280 --> 00:20:44,679 Speaker 1: So even with the sleepwalking defense, it seems like the 360 00:20:44,760 --> 00:20:49,520 Speaker 1: circumstantial nature of the evidence was actually what hurt the prosecution. However, 361 00:20:49,840 --> 00:20:52,760 Speaker 1: this case is usually cited as the first use of 362 00:20:52,800 --> 00:20:55,840 Speaker 1: the sleepwalking defense and is characterized as though that's the 363 00:20:55,880 --> 00:20:59,000 Speaker 1: reason for the acquittal, but the jury foreman said that 364 00:20:59,040 --> 00:21:03,280 Speaker 1: wasn't even really a fact for them. Terrell was also 365 00:21:03,359 --> 00:21:06,000 Speaker 1: tried for the arson charges that were associated with the 366 00:21:06,119 --> 00:21:08,960 Speaker 1: night of the murder. Shout defended him again with the 367 00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:11,919 Speaker 1: same defense and used many of the same witnesses, and 368 00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:15,960 Speaker 1: he was once again acquitted. Perhaps in boldened by these 369 00:21:15,960 --> 00:21:20,720 Speaker 1: two successes, Terrell actually this is so brazen, requested that 370 00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:24,160 Speaker 1: Chot refund half of his fees, as the case had 371 00:21:24,320 --> 00:21:27,400 Speaker 1: both cases had obviously been one with greater ease than expected. 372 00:21:28,320 --> 00:21:32,600 Speaker 1: Uh Chote of course refused. However, he didn't get off 373 00:21:32,600 --> 00:21:36,879 Speaker 1: on everything. Terrell was convicted of adultery and ended up 374 00:21:36,880 --> 00:21:40,520 Speaker 1: serving three years for it, and after that he returned 375 00:21:40,560 --> 00:21:42,960 Speaker 1: to his wife and children in Weymouth and he lived 376 00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:45,840 Speaker 1: out his days working in the family business of shoe manufacturer. 377 00:21:45,960 --> 00:21:47,879 Speaker 1: He could never hang on to any of his money. 378 00:21:48,359 --> 00:21:52,120 Speaker 1: They did have another child, but that was sort of 379 00:21:52,880 --> 00:21:55,800 Speaker 1: his His life after the trial got pretty quiet. After 380 00:21:56,080 --> 00:22:00,600 Speaker 1: his trials and his time, he went home again and 381 00:22:00,680 --> 00:22:03,800 Speaker 1: Choke continued his impressive legal career, and he continued to 382 00:22:03,840 --> 00:22:07,040 Speaker 1: be involved with politics, which could be a whole other podcast, 383 00:22:07,080 --> 00:22:08,919 Speaker 1: because he really was at the nexus point of a 384 00:22:08,920 --> 00:22:12,800 Speaker 1: lot of important moments. But what's interesting to think about 385 00:22:12,840 --> 00:22:16,439 Speaker 1: is that from a modern perspective, would this defense have 386 00:22:16,560 --> 00:22:20,080 Speaker 1: really held water? And we know people used the sleepwalking 387 00:22:20,080 --> 00:22:23,639 Speaker 1: defense in modern times. There's a famous case from Canada, 388 00:22:23,680 --> 00:22:28,240 Speaker 1: definitely eighties where a man had driven i think fourteen 389 00:22:28,280 --> 00:22:30,800 Speaker 1: miles killed his in laws and woke up while he 390 00:22:30,840 --> 00:22:33,439 Speaker 1: was driving home and drove himself to the police station 391 00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:37,000 Speaker 1: and he was actually acquitted. So we know these still 392 00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:39,680 Speaker 1: come up, and there are still some you know, that 393 00:22:39,760 --> 00:22:42,320 Speaker 1: come up even more modern than that. They don't always 394 00:22:42,320 --> 00:22:47,199 Speaker 1: succeed though, uh and A Michael kramer Borneman, who is 395 00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:51,280 Speaker 1: a medical doctor and a medical director of the cardio 396 00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:55,280 Speaker 1: Sleep Services at the University of Minnesota, UH was interviewed 397 00:22:55,320 --> 00:22:59,760 Speaker 1: by Focus magazine and he said of sleepwalking disorders, something 398 00:22:59,760 --> 00:23:02,920 Speaker 1: in the switch between phases goes wrong, creating an aberrant 399 00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:06,600 Speaker 1: electrical impulse that triggers an overlap between states. You're not 400 00:23:06,640 --> 00:23:09,760 Speaker 1: fully in RIM, so your muscles are relaxed, not paralyzed, 401 00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:12,040 Speaker 1: and you're not fully in non rim, so you can 402 00:23:12,080 --> 00:23:14,960 Speaker 1: still be dreaming. In this state, some of the brain's 403 00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:19,960 Speaker 1: processes will be awake while others are offline. Why does 404 00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:23,600 Speaker 1: that lead to violent behavior. You ask, yes, he continues. 405 00:23:23,680 --> 00:23:26,800 Speaker 1: As with many things in neuropathology, it's to do with 406 00:23:26,880 --> 00:23:30,960 Speaker 1: real estate brain structures like the hypothalamus that regulate sleep 407 00:23:31,040 --> 00:23:35,200 Speaker 1: sitting next to the mid brain where early evolved behaviors lie. 408 00:23:35,760 --> 00:23:38,760 Speaker 1: So when this electrical impulse is sparked, it also wakes 409 00:23:38,840 --> 00:23:42,200 Speaker 1: up this part of the brain, leaving the moral areas 410 00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:46,000 Speaker 1: like the frontal cortex asleep. That leaves nothing to inhibit 411 00:23:46,040 --> 00:23:49,400 Speaker 1: your rage reaction while you're sleep walking, And that's why 412 00:23:49,480 --> 00:23:53,240 Speaker 1: people are advised to never wake a sleepwalker because their 413 00:23:53,320 --> 00:23:57,399 Speaker 1: their reaction may not be delightful or pleasant. It's completely 414 00:23:57,440 --> 00:24:03,600 Speaker 1: not um in any way dampened by their morality, so 415 00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:07,199 Speaker 1: they could do something without even realizing it. But some 416 00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:11,439 Speaker 1: of Terrell's behaviors, like the fire to conceal evidence and 417 00:24:11,560 --> 00:24:15,800 Speaker 1: running and hiding are not consistent with sleepwalking actions as 418 00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:18,240 Speaker 1: we now understand them, And if he had not tried 419 00:24:18,280 --> 00:24:21,760 Speaker 1: to include that in his defense, you could make the case. 420 00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:24,960 Speaker 1: But he used the same defense in his Arson trial, right, 421 00:24:25,280 --> 00:24:31,520 Speaker 1: So it's feasible from a neurological perspective that a sleepwalker 422 00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:35,040 Speaker 1: could kill another person while asleep, but that then attempting 423 00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:39,680 Speaker 1: to conceal evidence while asleep unlikely. That's that's much less likely. 424 00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:43,480 Speaker 1: Uh So, if he were trying today and use the 425 00:24:43,480 --> 00:24:47,520 Speaker 1: sleepwalking defense, particularly for the arson element, he would probably 426 00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:49,320 Speaker 1: not faris it well, since that was part of the 427 00:24:49,320 --> 00:24:54,439 Speaker 1: concealment of the crime. So that's the first in the 428 00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:58,679 Speaker 1: US anyway, sleepwalking defense, and it was successful. Have you 429 00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:02,000 Speaker 1: seen the movie Sleepwalk with Me? Yes? And it's it's 430 00:25:02,040 --> 00:25:05,280 Speaker 1: reminded me of that, and and how alarmed he is 431 00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:09,760 Speaker 1: when he hears that people while sleepwalking when having sleep 432 00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:15,399 Speaker 1: disorders have either inadvertently or sort of acting out a 433 00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:19,400 Speaker 1: rage impulse, killed the person that that they were sleeping with. Yeah, 434 00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:22,120 Speaker 1: it's fascinating stuff. I always worried secretly that I will 435 00:25:22,119 --> 00:25:25,520 Speaker 1: one day magically begin sleepwalking and doing bad things. That's 436 00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:28,880 Speaker 1: a little weird fear of mine. You also have listener mail, 437 00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:32,240 Speaker 1: I do. I have two pieces of mail today. One 438 00:25:32,760 --> 00:25:37,560 Speaker 1: is a very lovely postcard from our listener Alicia, and 439 00:25:37,680 --> 00:25:40,520 Speaker 1: she writes, I recently discovered your podcast and I've heard 440 00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:43,240 Speaker 1: about your interest in postcards. I also collect postcards and 441 00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:45,760 Speaker 1: thought I would send you a historical postcard from my 442 00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:50,080 Speaker 1: own college. So it's a photo from bryn Maher of 443 00:25:50,119 --> 00:25:55,000 Speaker 1: the first class, and it includes some interesting and notable 444 00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:58,560 Speaker 1: people potentially in it. One of them, it says, Emily 445 00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:01,359 Speaker 1: green Bulch of class of eighty nine, one of the 446 00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:03,639 Speaker 1: first two American women to win the Nobel Peace Prize, 447 00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:06,560 Speaker 1: maybe one of the unidentified members of this group portraits, 448 00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:09,440 Speaker 1: and it's just a lovely picture. And if you're into 449 00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:12,040 Speaker 1: historical clothing, which I am, it's kind of a nice 450 00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:15,080 Speaker 1: reference point. I think I actually have a pattern that's 451 00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:17,719 Speaker 1: based off of one of these outfits. Uh. And I 452 00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:23,280 Speaker 1: also have an email from our listener, Thomas, and he says, 453 00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:25,800 Speaker 1: dear Tracy and Holly. A while back, Sarah and Katie 454 00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:29,080 Speaker 1: did a couple of podcasts on famous historical pets. I 455 00:26:29,119 --> 00:26:30,919 Speaker 1: wrote them to tell him a rumor I heard and 456 00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:34,280 Speaker 1: calling McCullough's historical novels set in the Roman Empire, Masters 457 00:26:34,280 --> 00:26:37,520 Speaker 1: of Rome. She mentioned a mutant horse that Julius Caesar 458 00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:40,440 Speaker 1: would ride into battle rather than hooves. It had toes 459 00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:43,520 Speaker 1: it would greatly enhance his image with the superstitious Romans 460 00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:46,560 Speaker 1: and their enemies. I wrote to ask if either of 461 00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:48,680 Speaker 1: them knew of this, or was it an invention of 462 00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:51,520 Speaker 1: Miss McCullough's. I did come across another reference to this 463 00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:55,000 Speaker 1: horse when I was reading the essays of Michelle de Montaigne, 464 00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:57,640 Speaker 1: so this rumor goes back to at least the sixteenth century. 465 00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:01,359 Speaker 1: I too, have seen the through her several times, and 466 00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:03,320 Speaker 1: I do know a couple of years ago there was 467 00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:05,840 Speaker 1: a beautiful exhibit at the Field Museum in Chicago, which 468 00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:09,160 Speaker 1: is one of my favorite museums in the US, about horses, 469 00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:12,400 Speaker 1: and they do mention vestigial toes and how some horses 470 00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:16,800 Speaker 1: will actually display what looks almost like a knobby toe 471 00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:20,199 Speaker 1: above the hoof levels. So I'm guessing it's something to 472 00:27:20,280 --> 00:27:22,399 Speaker 1: that effect, but I want to do more research and 473 00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:24,760 Speaker 1: find out for sure, because there are a lot of 474 00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:30,639 Speaker 1: stories that talk about Caesar's toad horse and how it 475 00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:34,520 Speaker 1: was considered lucky and he was the only man allowed 476 00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:38,040 Speaker 1: to ride it. It's kind of interesting stuff. But I know, 477 00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:41,119 Speaker 1: of course, this can't have ves digil toes, which we 478 00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:45,679 Speaker 1: just re blond really wonderful infographic about some of the 479 00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:50,960 Speaker 1: most famous horses in history on our tumbler yesterday, Is 480 00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:53,080 Speaker 1: he on there? I haven't looked at it yet. I 481 00:27:53,119 --> 00:27:55,960 Speaker 1: know that there is a horse of Caesar's on there, 482 00:27:56,080 --> 00:28:00,240 Speaker 1: and I don't recall seeing the tow part, so we 483 00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:02,840 Speaker 1: will do more research. But I love weird animal stuff, 484 00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:05,920 Speaker 1: so I'm always glad to research that. If you would 485 00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:08,840 Speaker 1: like to email us about weird animal as, digital bits, 486 00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:11,280 Speaker 1: or anything else, you can do so at History Podcast 487 00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:14,560 Speaker 1: at Discovery dot com. We're also on Twitter at missed 488 00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:18,639 Speaker 1: in History, on Facebook at Facebook dot com slash history 489 00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:21,879 Speaker 1: class stuff. We're also at missed in History dot tumbler 490 00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:24,560 Speaker 1: dot com, and we're on Pinterest. If you would like 491 00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:26,240 Speaker 1: to learn a little bit more about what we've talked 492 00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:28,080 Speaker 1: about today, you can go to our website and type 493 00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:30,760 Speaker 1: in sloleep walking into the search bar. Then you will 494 00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:33,560 Speaker 1: turn up the article how sleepwalking works. Maybe you would 495 00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:35,959 Speaker 1: like to learn about almost anything else your mind can conjure. 496 00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:37,920 Speaker 1: You can do that at our website as well, which 497 00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:43,080 Speaker 1: is how stuff Works dot com. For more on this 498 00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:45,800 Speaker 1: and thousands of other topics, is it how stuff Works 499 00:28:45,800 --> 00:28:59,400 Speaker 1: dot com. Netflix streams TV shows and movies directly to 500 00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:02,600 Speaker 1: your home, saving you time, money, and hassle. As a 501 00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:06,120 Speaker 1: Netflix member, you can instantly watch TV episodes and movies 502 00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:08,920 Speaker 1: streaming directly to your PC, Mac, or right to your 503 00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:11,680 Speaker 1: TV with your Xbox three, sixty p S three or 504 00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:16,360 Speaker 1: Nintendo we console, plus Apple devices, Kindle and Nook. Get 505 00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:19,960 Speaker 1: a free thirty day trial membership. Go to www dot 506 00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:22,960 Speaker 1: netflix dot com slash history and sign up now.