1 00:00:06,960 --> 00:00:10,640 Speaker 1: Welcome to Creature feature production of I Heart Radio. I'm 2 00:00:10,680 --> 00:00:14,640 Speaker 1: your host of Many Parasites, Katie Golden. I studied psychology 3 00:00:14,640 --> 00:00:18,919 Speaker 1: and evolutionary biology, and today we're talking about animal senses. 4 00:00:19,480 --> 00:00:22,960 Speaker 1: But this is a very special episode because joining me 5 00:00:23,040 --> 00:00:27,440 Speaker 1: today is a science journalist for the Atlantic Pulitzer Prize 6 00:00:27,440 --> 00:00:30,800 Speaker 1: winner for his coverage of COVID nineteen and author of 7 00:00:30,840 --> 00:00:35,199 Speaker 1: the book An Immense World, which explores the hugely diverse 8 00:00:35,280 --> 00:00:39,040 Speaker 1: way in which animals perceive the world, from the catfish 9 00:00:39,080 --> 00:00:42,040 Speaker 1: that has taste receptors all over its body to the 10 00:00:42,120 --> 00:00:46,120 Speaker 1: knife fish that sees the world using electricity, from elephants 11 00:00:46,159 --> 00:00:49,480 Speaker 1: who smell with their immense trunks to snakes who smell 12 00:00:49,560 --> 00:00:53,560 Speaker 1: by whisking sent in with their tongues. Welcome to the show, 13 00:00:53,880 --> 00:00:57,720 Speaker 1: Edie Young, Hello, thanks for having me. I am so 14 00:00:57,800 --> 00:01:00,640 Speaker 1: excited to have you here. I I'm a big fan 15 00:01:00,680 --> 00:01:04,160 Speaker 1: of your articles. They are immensely helpful for me as 16 00:01:04,200 --> 00:01:10,000 Speaker 1: I am researching the podcast. Thank you. I'm delighted. So 17 00:01:10,319 --> 00:01:13,360 Speaker 1: I have read your book, An Immense World, and I 18 00:01:13,400 --> 00:01:17,360 Speaker 1: absolutely love it. I think it really it embodies so 19 00:01:17,440 --> 00:01:21,160 Speaker 1: much of what I try to talk about on the podcast, 20 00:01:21,160 --> 00:01:25,120 Speaker 1: which is getting people to understand the world of animals, 21 00:01:25,440 --> 00:01:30,240 Speaker 1: can put themselves inside of the minds of animals, but 22 00:01:30,280 --> 00:01:33,800 Speaker 1: it can be very difficult sometimes to do that because 23 00:01:33,840 --> 00:01:37,800 Speaker 1: animals are so different from us, So especially maybe the 24 00:01:37,920 --> 00:01:42,679 Speaker 1: less charismatic, gregarious animals, that can be hard to relate 25 00:01:42,720 --> 00:01:45,280 Speaker 1: to them. Uh. And it can be really hard to 26 00:01:45,319 --> 00:01:49,760 Speaker 1: describe what might be the experience of animals when we're 27 00:01:49,800 --> 00:01:53,000 Speaker 1: trapped in our own, you know, human brains. We can't 28 00:01:53,040 --> 00:01:56,400 Speaker 1: get outside of our brains. But as a science writer, 29 00:01:56,520 --> 00:01:58,640 Speaker 1: you have to try to get inside the heads of 30 00:01:58,640 --> 00:02:03,320 Speaker 1: these animals. So how do you go about doing that right? Well? 31 00:02:03,440 --> 00:02:08,000 Speaker 1: With some difficulty it is, it is very challenging. Um. 32 00:02:08,080 --> 00:02:11,240 Speaker 1: And you know, I think that there's a lot there's 33 00:02:11,240 --> 00:02:15,560 Speaker 1: a lot of discussion around how animals think, um, you know, 34 00:02:15,639 --> 00:02:19,160 Speaker 1: how what they might feel, um. But you know, even 35 00:02:19,200 --> 00:02:21,560 Speaker 1: on a on a very basic level, like how they 36 00:02:21,680 --> 00:02:24,240 Speaker 1: how they sense, what they see, what they hear, what 37 00:02:24,280 --> 00:02:27,280 Speaker 1: they're capable of seeing and hearing. Um, there's a huge 38 00:02:27,320 --> 00:02:30,520 Speaker 1: amount of variation there. And and we don't we often 39 00:02:30,600 --> 00:02:32,720 Speaker 1: just don't really think about it. I think this is 40 00:02:32,840 --> 00:02:37,120 Speaker 1: very reflective tendency to assume that animals are just seeing 41 00:02:37,160 --> 00:02:39,920 Speaker 1: and hearing and feeling and smelling the same kinds of 42 00:02:39,960 --> 00:02:43,639 Speaker 1: things that that we are, and that's not true, and 43 00:02:43,800 --> 00:02:47,520 Speaker 1: that this whole book is about why that's not true. Um. 44 00:02:47,520 --> 00:02:49,720 Speaker 1: But to sort of really grapple with why that's not 45 00:02:49,760 --> 00:02:53,919 Speaker 1: true it is immensely challenging. Like I can I can 46 00:02:53,960 --> 00:02:57,520 Speaker 1: look at studies, I can see what this what science 47 00:02:57,600 --> 00:03:00,440 Speaker 1: tells us about what kinds of things and them all 48 00:03:00,840 --> 00:03:06,560 Speaker 1: can can sense, but to really actually get into the 49 00:03:06,639 --> 00:03:09,760 Speaker 1: head of that creature, to think about what about UM 50 00:03:10,360 --> 00:03:12,880 Speaker 1: feels when it flies through the air, What what an 51 00:03:12,880 --> 00:03:17,120 Speaker 1: electric fish feels when it when it detects the ways 52 00:03:17,360 --> 00:03:21,320 Speaker 1: its own electric field is walked by the objects around it. 53 00:03:22,320 --> 00:03:25,240 Speaker 1: You're never going to be entirely able to do that, 54 00:03:25,600 --> 00:03:28,480 Speaker 1: and so there's always going to be this chasm between 55 00:03:28,800 --> 00:03:31,280 Speaker 1: what we experience and what other animals experienced. And the 56 00:03:31,360 --> 00:03:34,200 Speaker 1: only way to jump across that is with a feat 57 00:03:34,200 --> 00:03:37,400 Speaker 1: of imagination. And I think that's something sort of beautiful 58 00:03:37,440 --> 00:03:39,480 Speaker 1: about that. It's you're never going to be able to 59 00:03:39,600 --> 00:03:42,280 Speaker 1: completely do it. It's always going to be a struggle, 60 00:03:43,000 --> 00:03:46,280 Speaker 1: but it feels like such a worthwhile thing to to 61 00:03:46,440 --> 00:03:50,480 Speaker 1: struggle against into sort of devote mental energy towards. I 62 00:03:50,560 --> 00:03:53,880 Speaker 1: absolutely agree. I think it takes a lot of creativity, 63 00:03:54,040 --> 00:03:59,640 Speaker 1: imagination and compassion to try to imagine what it would 64 00:03:59,680 --> 00:04:03,000 Speaker 1: be to be one of these animals. And I think 65 00:04:03,040 --> 00:04:07,440 Speaker 1: in your writing that creativity and that compassion for animals 66 00:04:07,520 --> 00:04:11,360 Speaker 1: is really infectious. So like, for instance, I have a dog, 67 00:04:11,400 --> 00:04:14,560 Speaker 1: and in your book An Immense World, you wrote about 68 00:04:14,560 --> 00:04:17,560 Speaker 1: how their sense of smell is so pivotal to their 69 00:04:17,560 --> 00:04:23,880 Speaker 1: whole quality of life. My dog loves to smell the nastiest, nastiest, 70 00:04:24,080 --> 00:04:27,480 Speaker 1: rankest thing she can find on our walk and just 71 00:04:27,760 --> 00:04:33,320 Speaker 1: huff that smell. And it's usually something horrifying, like you know, 72 00:04:33,839 --> 00:04:37,640 Speaker 1: some animal dropping with maybe some cigarette butts mixed in there, 73 00:04:38,400 --> 00:04:42,000 Speaker 1: and I, you know, it's it always kind of irked me, 74 00:04:42,160 --> 00:04:45,640 Speaker 1: but now I think, okay, Well, for her, she's exam 75 00:04:45,760 --> 00:04:49,040 Speaker 1: it's like viewing a piece of art. For me maybe 76 00:04:49,600 --> 00:04:52,600 Speaker 1: like going to an art gallery and taking all it 77 00:04:52,640 --> 00:04:55,680 Speaker 1: all in. She's going to a smell gallery. And for her, 78 00:04:55,800 --> 00:04:58,920 Speaker 1: this piece of poop that has like cigarette butts in 79 00:04:58,960 --> 00:05:02,200 Speaker 1: it is like some amazing piece of art for her 80 00:05:02,279 --> 00:05:06,920 Speaker 1: to experience your smell, right, it's like Michelangelo's David Right, 81 00:05:08,240 --> 00:05:11,000 Speaker 1: So I feel so I feel much the same way 82 00:05:11,080 --> 00:05:15,200 Speaker 1: ever dog. He's a corgy. His name is Typo. When 83 00:05:15,279 --> 00:05:17,400 Speaker 1: whenever we're like on a walk or in the dog park, 84 00:05:17,440 --> 00:05:19,359 Speaker 1: whenever he does that thing where he sniffs something and 85 00:05:19,360 --> 00:05:23,200 Speaker 1: then he drops and like rubs his back on it. Right, 86 00:05:23,240 --> 00:05:26,000 Speaker 1: we have this joke that like it's never a good thing. 87 00:05:26,160 --> 00:05:28,480 Speaker 1: You know, it's not like someone has just recently splits 88 00:05:28,560 --> 00:05:31,560 Speaker 1: like lavender on that spot, right, Like it's always going 89 00:05:31,600 --> 00:05:34,560 Speaker 1: to be some poop or like something throw up, or 90 00:05:34,600 --> 00:05:37,560 Speaker 1: like there's a cigarette but or something like that. Um. 91 00:05:37,600 --> 00:05:40,640 Speaker 1: But but as you say, I think smell is so 92 00:05:40,680 --> 00:05:45,360 Speaker 1: central to the life of a dog that those acts 93 00:05:45,400 --> 00:05:49,039 Speaker 1: of exploration, even for things that we might find gross, 94 00:05:49,720 --> 00:05:52,120 Speaker 1: are really important to them. You know, I've seen dog 95 00:05:52,160 --> 00:05:55,920 Speaker 1: owners like yank their dogs along walks because they sort 96 00:05:55,920 --> 00:05:58,520 Speaker 1: of treated as exercise, or you know, pull their dogs 97 00:05:58,560 --> 00:06:03,880 Speaker 1: away from sniffing another dog's genitals, for example, And all 98 00:06:03,920 --> 00:06:06,360 Speaker 1: of those acts are just a normal part of a 99 00:06:06,440 --> 00:06:09,760 Speaker 1: dog's behavior, and they're so profoundly linked to their sense 100 00:06:09,800 --> 00:06:11,719 Speaker 1: of smell. A dog is an amazing sense to smell. 101 00:06:12,560 --> 00:06:16,960 Speaker 1: It's you know, ol faction. Smell is primary for them 102 00:06:16,960 --> 00:06:20,479 Speaker 1: in the way that vision is for sighted humans. And 103 00:06:20,520 --> 00:06:24,200 Speaker 1: if we deprive them of chances to use their nose. 104 00:06:24,760 --> 00:06:27,200 Speaker 1: I think we we sort of deprive them of a 105 00:06:27,279 --> 00:06:30,520 Speaker 1: of a like a very essential part of their dog nous. 106 00:06:30,800 --> 00:06:33,839 Speaker 1: You know, there have been studies showing that dogs are happier, 107 00:06:33,960 --> 00:06:36,720 Speaker 1: like more optimistic, less anxious when they get a chance 108 00:06:36,720 --> 00:06:39,279 Speaker 1: to use their noses. And I think, like we we 109 00:06:39,400 --> 00:06:41,720 Speaker 1: benefit too. You know, when I watched typo on a 110 00:06:41,839 --> 00:06:45,920 Speaker 1: on a walk, like we walk around the same bit 111 00:06:45,960 --> 00:06:48,320 Speaker 1: of neighborhood all the time, like streets and houses that 112 00:06:48,400 --> 00:06:51,360 Speaker 1: I passed thousands of times over and that now feel 113 00:06:51,400 --> 00:06:53,919 Speaker 1: boring to me, but they're not boring to him because 114 00:06:53,920 --> 00:06:56,200 Speaker 1: they change all the time. That the smells that he 115 00:06:56,279 --> 00:07:00,680 Speaker 1: gets are constantly shifting, and he smells like you know 116 00:07:00,839 --> 00:07:04,440 Speaker 1: that now it's spring. I watched him like examine like 117 00:07:04,680 --> 00:07:10,120 Speaker 1: newly emerged plants with just this incredible delicacy. And I 118 00:07:10,200 --> 00:07:13,520 Speaker 1: watched him like examining bits where other dogs have peede 119 00:07:13,600 --> 00:07:17,840 Speaker 1: or pooped. And I see that as like you know, 120 00:07:18,000 --> 00:07:21,000 Speaker 1: me check scrolling through my Instagram feed. You know, it's 121 00:07:21,040 --> 00:07:23,360 Speaker 1: like me checking on social media. It's it's an entire 122 00:07:23,400 --> 00:07:26,720 Speaker 1: it's right, it's a it's a deeply social activity. Like 123 00:07:26,760 --> 00:07:29,720 Speaker 1: he can tell which of the neighborhood dogs have been around, 124 00:07:30,440 --> 00:07:33,320 Speaker 1: probably like what their current state is, like, what their 125 00:07:33,360 --> 00:07:36,760 Speaker 1: health is like, lots of stuff about their lives that 126 00:07:37,360 --> 00:07:40,800 Speaker 1: kind of like autobiographical information that I have no access to. 127 00:07:40,880 --> 00:07:43,400 Speaker 1: I didn't even know, you know, which dogs were there, 128 00:07:43,400 --> 00:07:47,520 Speaker 1: but he does. And so every walk, if he's allowed 129 00:07:47,560 --> 00:07:51,960 Speaker 1: to sniff, becomes like an adventure, a social occasion. I 130 00:07:52,000 --> 00:07:55,160 Speaker 1: love that. Yeah, we have a park where I take Cookie, 131 00:07:56,040 --> 00:07:58,840 Speaker 1: and Cookie is not she's like a little some kind 132 00:07:58,840 --> 00:08:02,640 Speaker 1: of spaniel chia am, so she's not big on exercise anyways, 133 00:08:02,720 --> 00:08:05,080 Speaker 1: but I'll take her to the park and she just 134 00:08:05,400 --> 00:08:10,360 Speaker 1: loves the whole the sniff experience of going and she's 135 00:08:10,440 --> 00:08:13,520 Speaker 1: very particular. And it's so interesting because you know, I 136 00:08:13,560 --> 00:08:15,920 Speaker 1: may want to go somewhere where it's nice and shady 137 00:08:16,040 --> 00:08:18,480 Speaker 1: or there's some flowers, but she wants to go to 138 00:08:18,680 --> 00:08:21,800 Speaker 1: just this uninteresting to me patch of dirt. But I'm 139 00:08:21,800 --> 00:08:24,720 Speaker 1: sure there's some kind of calling card that's been left, 140 00:08:24,840 --> 00:08:28,840 Speaker 1: some sort of interesting marking from another dog, and she's 141 00:08:28,920 --> 00:08:32,480 Speaker 1: just investigating it for you know, minutes, and it's it's 142 00:08:32,600 --> 00:08:36,680 Speaker 1: really I think, kind of once you really put yourself 143 00:08:36,720 --> 00:08:40,080 Speaker 1: into that mindset of them exploring the world. It does 144 00:08:40,120 --> 00:08:44,440 Speaker 1: become more interesting for you observing them, seeing that fascination 145 00:08:44,520 --> 00:08:46,600 Speaker 1: in their eyes kind of light up when they find 146 00:08:46,600 --> 00:08:51,600 Speaker 1: a particularly smelly patch, right, Like I think old dog 147 00:08:51,600 --> 00:08:54,360 Speaker 1: in is like know this feeling where you're just going 148 00:08:54,440 --> 00:08:56,200 Speaker 1: for where you're going for a walk, and the dog 149 00:08:56,280 --> 00:08:59,120 Speaker 1: is like happily trussing along and then suddenly like just 150 00:08:59,360 --> 00:09:03,240 Speaker 1: grind to a halt and and like flips around and 151 00:09:03,280 --> 00:09:07,800 Speaker 1: starts investigating some random patch of ground or sidewalk that 152 00:09:07,880 --> 00:09:11,840 Speaker 1: looks completely indistinguishable to every other bit of ground or 153 00:09:11,880 --> 00:09:16,679 Speaker 1: sidewalk but clearly has something that is like deeply enthralling 154 00:09:16,720 --> 00:09:19,960 Speaker 1: to them. Um. And you know, I think that there's 155 00:09:19,960 --> 00:09:21,480 Speaker 1: a few ways you can react to that. You could 156 00:09:21,480 --> 00:09:23,120 Speaker 1: sort of go, oh god, you know, we need to 157 00:09:23,120 --> 00:09:25,280 Speaker 1: go on a walk and like yank them away. But 158 00:09:25,320 --> 00:09:27,360 Speaker 1: I think if you really start to consider what they're doing, 159 00:09:27,400 --> 00:09:30,559 Speaker 1: like it does, it does show you that there's, um 160 00:09:31,480 --> 00:09:36,040 Speaker 1: that even parts of the world that we that are 161 00:09:36,120 --> 00:09:40,720 Speaker 1: familiar and boring and mundane to us are actually rich 162 00:09:40,800 --> 00:09:45,160 Speaker 1: with information, are you know, sort of wondrous and extraordinary 163 00:09:45,200 --> 00:09:48,559 Speaker 1: through the senses of other animals. And that's like, that's 164 00:09:48,679 --> 00:09:51,160 Speaker 1: a feeling that I've tried to capture in this book 165 00:09:51,240 --> 00:09:55,880 Speaker 1: throughout that paying attention to how other animals sense the 166 00:09:55,880 --> 00:10:01,079 Speaker 1: world reveals the world that we know in a completely 167 00:10:01,080 --> 00:10:04,800 Speaker 1: different light. It shows you like flickers of the magical 168 00:10:04,960 --> 00:10:08,079 Speaker 1: in the mundane. Yeah, it does really feel like there's 169 00:10:08,160 --> 00:10:12,960 Speaker 1: this whole secret world that we are not really aware 170 00:10:13,000 --> 00:10:16,800 Speaker 1: of until we actually pay attention to animals. There are 171 00:10:16,800 --> 00:10:19,920 Speaker 1: always jokes about a cat or something be able to 172 00:10:20,040 --> 00:10:23,480 Speaker 1: see ghosts or having extra senses, but it is I mean, 173 00:10:23,520 --> 00:10:27,280 Speaker 1: maybe not the ghosts part, but the extra senses or 174 00:10:27,520 --> 00:10:31,680 Speaker 1: at least the same senses but used differently, are very true. 175 00:10:32,840 --> 00:10:35,720 Speaker 1: And you know, I think it's when we move beyond 176 00:10:35,840 --> 00:10:39,640 Speaker 1: just like domesticated animals. It's so interesting how their world, 177 00:10:40,520 --> 00:10:45,120 Speaker 1: even for these like extremely intelligent animals like elephants, can 178 00:10:45,200 --> 00:10:49,640 Speaker 1: just be have this whole hidden aspect to it that 179 00:10:49,960 --> 00:10:55,760 Speaker 1: humans don't necessarily understand until we actually study them. I 180 00:10:55,840 --> 00:10:58,760 Speaker 1: really loved that example you had in your book. It 181 00:10:58,840 --> 00:11:03,880 Speaker 1: was the studies of Dr Lucy Bates, who found elephants 182 00:11:03,960 --> 00:11:09,680 Speaker 1: expressing confusion over a kind of magic trick. Lucy Bates 183 00:11:09,720 --> 00:11:13,280 Speaker 1: in her team did or they made it. They made 184 00:11:13,280 --> 00:11:17,440 Speaker 1: an elephant teleport right, but only for these elephants. Do 185 00:11:17,440 --> 00:11:20,960 Speaker 1: you want to describe that study a little bit. Yes, 186 00:11:21,160 --> 00:11:25,240 Speaker 1: So elephants, like dogs, have this very powerful sense of smell. 187 00:11:25,280 --> 00:11:27,800 Speaker 1: They obviously have that trunk. They're constantly exploring with it. 188 00:11:28,240 --> 00:11:32,000 Speaker 1: And so Lucy Bates did this experiment where she followed 189 00:11:32,040 --> 00:11:35,240 Speaker 1: like herd of elephants, waited for one of them to pee, 190 00:11:35,840 --> 00:11:38,200 Speaker 1: and then like waiting for them to leave, and then 191 00:11:38,280 --> 00:11:41,880 Speaker 1: scooped up the urine soaked soil and put it in 192 00:11:41,880 --> 00:11:45,880 Speaker 1: a piece of topperware and then drove around to find 193 00:11:45,960 --> 00:11:48,320 Speaker 1: like either the same herd of elephant or a different herd, 194 00:11:49,160 --> 00:11:54,400 Speaker 1: like cut cut them off, dumped out the piece oat 195 00:11:54,520 --> 00:11:57,560 Speaker 1: soil in front of them, and then waited. And what 196 00:11:57,640 --> 00:12:01,640 Speaker 1: happened was if she did that for a completely different 197 00:12:01,640 --> 00:12:04,800 Speaker 1: herd of elephants that was unrelated, they would like examine 198 00:12:04,840 --> 00:12:07,000 Speaker 1: the soil and then be like fine and move on. 199 00:12:08,040 --> 00:12:12,920 Speaker 1: If it was the same herd, um, they would examine 200 00:12:12,920 --> 00:12:15,320 Speaker 1: the soil and be like more interested, Like you know, 201 00:12:15,360 --> 00:12:19,000 Speaker 1: they recognize that it's a family member, but specifically it was. 202 00:12:19,120 --> 00:12:21,560 Speaker 1: If it was the same herd and they knew the 203 00:12:21,640 --> 00:12:26,600 Speaker 1: elephant who left who left, that scent was behind them, 204 00:12:26,640 --> 00:12:32,640 Speaker 1: they acted very confused because they have an awareness of um, 205 00:12:32,679 --> 00:12:36,360 Speaker 1: of who of their their own family members, who's around them, 206 00:12:36,400 --> 00:12:40,040 Speaker 1: and that awareness is cemented through scent. So if they 207 00:12:40,040 --> 00:12:43,679 Speaker 1: can smell, if they know that, you know, like elephant 208 00:12:43,840 --> 00:12:48,080 Speaker 1: Joe is like way behind in the herd, and suddenly 209 00:12:48,120 --> 00:12:54,640 Speaker 1: they smell Elephantjoe ahead of them, They're like wait, what what? How? Um? Right? 210 00:12:54,679 --> 00:12:58,520 Speaker 1: And so I love that for for several reasons. Right, So, firstly, 211 00:12:58,840 --> 00:13:01,360 Speaker 1: it shows that principle we talked about that like this 212 00:13:01,600 --> 00:13:06,839 Speaker 1: random bit of soil contains rich information to an to 213 00:13:06,880 --> 00:13:10,320 Speaker 1: an animal that can that has the right nose for it, um. 214 00:13:10,360 --> 00:13:14,280 Speaker 1: And it's and it's rich biographical information too, right, It's 215 00:13:14,360 --> 00:13:20,000 Speaker 1: it's information about who who is around and where they are. Um. 216 00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:25,199 Speaker 1: And And also that this this there's a lovely interaction 217 00:13:25,200 --> 00:13:28,240 Speaker 1: here between the senses and the intelligence of the animal. Right. So, 218 00:13:28,240 --> 00:13:33,119 Speaker 1: so the sense some animals have all kinds of extraordinary 219 00:13:33,120 --> 00:13:35,640 Speaker 1: ways of perceiving the world. But when you tag on, 220 00:13:35,960 --> 00:13:40,479 Speaker 1: when you tack that on to like long lasting memories 221 00:13:40,760 --> 00:13:44,200 Speaker 1: or just you know, advanced cognition, you get these wonderful 222 00:13:44,240 --> 00:13:48,880 Speaker 1: little interplace um like like what these elevants being confused 223 00:13:49,000 --> 00:13:53,679 Speaker 1: by a magic trick that humans have performed. Um. Yeah, 224 00:13:53,800 --> 00:13:59,400 Speaker 1: I also love that we probably wouldn't know about this 225 00:14:00,200 --> 00:14:02,679 Speaker 1: awareness that these elephants have. This very it's a very 226 00:14:02,679 --> 00:14:07,960 Speaker 1: advanced form of cognition to recognize an individual and know 227 00:14:08,160 --> 00:14:13,200 Speaker 1: where that individual is spatially and also be able to 228 00:14:13,800 --> 00:14:17,280 Speaker 1: reason out that, Okay, if they're behind us, how could 229 00:14:17,280 --> 00:14:20,240 Speaker 1: they have jumped ahead in time and gotten ahead of us? 230 00:14:20,360 --> 00:14:24,320 Speaker 1: That doesn't make sense. So it shows that very complex, 231 00:14:24,480 --> 00:14:27,920 Speaker 1: rich intelligence. But if we hadn't thought, or at least 232 00:14:27,920 --> 00:14:30,520 Speaker 1: if Dr Lucy Bates and her team hadn't thought to 233 00:14:31,200 --> 00:14:34,760 Speaker 1: investigate their sense of smell, something that to us is 234 00:14:34,800 --> 00:14:39,600 Speaker 1: not as important in recognizing individuals or understanding sort of 235 00:14:39,960 --> 00:14:45,960 Speaker 1: time or spatial reasoning, we wouldn't have discovered this aspect 236 00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:50,040 Speaker 1: of elephant intelligence. So being able to understand the you know, 237 00:14:50,120 --> 00:14:53,720 Speaker 1: not look at an animal's intelligence through our human kind 238 00:14:53,760 --> 00:14:57,080 Speaker 1: of framework, but through the animals framework, I think would 239 00:14:57,120 --> 00:15:00,440 Speaker 1: reveal a lot more to us about how intelligent they are. 240 00:15:01,360 --> 00:15:05,240 Speaker 1: Oh totally. And I think this also reveals something important 241 00:15:05,280 --> 00:15:08,840 Speaker 1: about that the scientific method, which is that it is 242 00:15:08,960 --> 00:15:14,040 Speaker 1: profoundly influenced by the kinds of people who get to 243 00:15:14,080 --> 00:15:15,800 Speaker 1: be part of science, Like we sort of think of 244 00:15:15,840 --> 00:15:20,520 Speaker 1: the scientific method. This is like neutral objective thing, but 245 00:15:20,520 --> 00:15:24,400 Speaker 1: but it's not. It's profoundly influenced by by the types 246 00:15:24,480 --> 00:15:27,440 Speaker 1: of people who are involved in science, and in this 247 00:15:27,480 --> 00:15:31,360 Speaker 1: case their own senses. So so you're right, many most 248 00:15:31,480 --> 00:15:35,040 Speaker 1: humans rely on vision above all our other senses, and 249 00:15:35,080 --> 00:15:37,680 Speaker 1: we sort of put that, we we map that onto 250 00:15:37,680 --> 00:15:41,120 Speaker 1: the creatures we study. So with like an animal intelligence, 251 00:15:41,120 --> 00:15:43,720 Speaker 1: there is this famous test called the mirror test, where 252 00:15:43,720 --> 00:15:47,800 Speaker 1: you're trying to see if an animal can recognize it's 253 00:15:47,840 --> 00:15:50,080 Speaker 1: a mark that has been placed on its body in 254 00:15:50,160 --> 00:15:53,240 Speaker 1: its reflection. And this has been you know, used as 255 00:15:53,240 --> 00:15:55,600 Speaker 1: a as a way, this has been linked to everything 256 00:15:55,640 --> 00:15:59,560 Speaker 1: from all sorts of things like self awareness, empathy, and 257 00:15:59,640 --> 00:16:03,880 Speaker 1: so on. But like, it only really applies, it only 258 00:16:03,920 --> 00:16:08,800 Speaker 1: really works if the animal is visually oriented. And like 259 00:16:08,920 --> 00:16:11,520 Speaker 1: people have tried this kind of test with with elephants 260 00:16:11,560 --> 00:16:15,280 Speaker 1: with mixed success, And maybe the reason is that vision 261 00:16:15,360 --> 00:16:17,840 Speaker 1: just ain't that important for elements, like you know, maybe 262 00:16:17,880 --> 00:16:21,120 Speaker 1: if you try a version that that um that is 263 00:16:21,840 --> 00:16:25,560 Speaker 1: specifically related to smell, they do better. And you know 264 00:16:25,600 --> 00:16:28,320 Speaker 1: that this kind of work has been done with dogs, 265 00:16:28,400 --> 00:16:30,400 Speaker 1: but for the same reason, they do better at like 266 00:16:30,520 --> 00:16:35,240 Speaker 1: smell oriented tests of self recognition than than visual ones. 267 00:16:35,840 --> 00:16:41,040 Speaker 1: So you know, the humans have this very visual bias 268 00:16:41,160 --> 00:16:44,320 Speaker 1: that affects how they think about the animals that they 269 00:16:44,360 --> 00:16:47,320 Speaker 1: study and the kinds of research questions that they ask. 270 00:16:47,920 --> 00:16:52,120 Speaker 1: And it takes a little feet of imagination to actually think, like, now, 271 00:16:52,160 --> 00:16:55,760 Speaker 1: what what are the animals themselves sensing? And how do 272 00:16:55,840 --> 00:16:58,960 Speaker 1: we study that? And how do we craft experiments and 273 00:16:59,280 --> 00:17:04,320 Speaker 1: studies that that really pay respect to their different senses 274 00:17:05,160 --> 00:17:09,760 Speaker 1: rather than just you know, shoving the round peg of 275 00:17:09,800 --> 00:17:14,080 Speaker 1: animal behavior into the square hole of like of of 276 00:17:14,240 --> 00:17:18,760 Speaker 1: the human unbolt. Yeah, I can imagine an alien species 277 00:17:19,000 --> 00:17:23,119 Speaker 1: picking one of us up and maybe changing our smell, 278 00:17:23,320 --> 00:17:26,800 Speaker 1: like changing our personal smell, which as humans we don't 279 00:17:26,840 --> 00:17:29,080 Speaker 1: notice that much. We do do a certain extent, but 280 00:17:29,119 --> 00:17:33,119 Speaker 1: not much, and then not seeing that we don't notice 281 00:17:33,160 --> 00:17:36,200 Speaker 1: that changed our own smell, and coming to the conclusion, oh, 282 00:17:36,400 --> 00:17:41,440 Speaker 1: humans aren't self aware. They have no awareness of self right, yeah, 283 00:17:41,600 --> 00:17:44,480 Speaker 1: right right, Like you know, we we talked about how 284 00:17:46,119 --> 00:17:48,800 Speaker 1: um dogs have, you know, are aware of things in 285 00:17:48,840 --> 00:17:51,080 Speaker 1: the street that we aren't aware of. But of course 286 00:17:51,119 --> 00:17:54,520 Speaker 1: it works in other ways to like every animal has 287 00:17:54,560 --> 00:17:57,320 Speaker 1: its own little sensory bubble, like we are aware of 288 00:17:57,359 --> 00:17:59,479 Speaker 1: stimuli in the world that other animals and not all 289 00:17:59,600 --> 00:18:03,199 Speaker 1: and vice versa. So so you're right, you know that 290 00:18:03,280 --> 00:18:05,359 Speaker 1: there's a very simple example I've given the book where 291 00:18:06,040 --> 00:18:11,399 Speaker 1: our color vision extends from red to violet and we 292 00:18:11,560 --> 00:18:16,199 Speaker 1: can't see ultra violet light that that lies beyond the 293 00:18:16,280 --> 00:18:20,800 Speaker 1: violet end of the visible spectrum. And for that reason, 294 00:18:21,480 --> 00:18:24,600 Speaker 1: there's been a lot of mystique around ultra violets. You know, 295 00:18:24,600 --> 00:18:27,280 Speaker 1: a lot of scientists have said that it maybe it's 296 00:18:27,280 --> 00:18:31,720 Speaker 1: a secret communication channel that animals used to share messages 297 00:18:31,880 --> 00:18:34,960 Speaker 1: that no one else can see. But that breaks down 298 00:18:34,960 --> 00:18:37,360 Speaker 1: when you realize that actually most animals that can see 299 00:18:37,359 --> 00:18:41,200 Speaker 1: colors see ultra violet. We are just the exception. So 300 00:18:41,560 --> 00:18:44,879 Speaker 1: it's not really super special. It just happens to be 301 00:18:44,920 --> 00:18:47,320 Speaker 1: another color, and it happens to be another color that 302 00:18:47,400 --> 00:18:49,840 Speaker 1: we can't see. And if you, you know, if you 303 00:18:49,920 --> 00:18:53,040 Speaker 1: for a moment you imagine that like bees were scientists 304 00:18:53,880 --> 00:18:58,080 Speaker 1: like bees, for be, the rainbow goes from green to 305 00:18:58,200 --> 00:19:01,159 Speaker 1: ultra violet, so they can't see it. And you can 306 00:19:01,200 --> 00:19:04,880 Speaker 1: imagine a b scientist thinking like, oh, these weird like 307 00:19:05,119 --> 00:19:08,040 Speaker 1: you know, two legged apes they can see. I guess 308 00:19:08,080 --> 00:19:10,760 Speaker 1: they would call it like ultra yellow, right, like the 309 00:19:10,840 --> 00:19:14,159 Speaker 1: color that that they can't see, and maybe it's like 310 00:19:14,359 --> 00:19:18,440 Speaker 1: really special. Maybe ultra maybe ultra yellow is a way 311 00:19:18,480 --> 00:19:22,359 Speaker 1: of for them to like exchange secret messages that we 312 00:19:22,440 --> 00:19:25,120 Speaker 1: can't see. And and only after like decades of study 313 00:19:25,119 --> 00:19:27,320 Speaker 1: where they realize actually a lot of animals can see 314 00:19:27,400 --> 00:19:29,800 Speaker 1: ultra yellow. There's a lot of you know, there's a 315 00:19:29,800 --> 00:19:32,320 Speaker 1: lot of ultra yellow in the world, and it just 316 00:19:32,480 --> 00:19:36,440 Speaker 1: it's just another color. Um. So yeah, I think there's 317 00:19:36,560 --> 00:19:40,479 Speaker 1: there's a lot of that around where there are parts 318 00:19:40,480 --> 00:19:43,040 Speaker 1: of the world that we don't experience and we think 319 00:19:43,040 --> 00:19:45,840 Speaker 1: are like just kind of magical, and they are a 320 00:19:45,840 --> 00:19:49,479 Speaker 1: little magical, but like they're only magical because they're there 321 00:19:49,480 --> 00:19:56,400 Speaker 1: are things that we don't have access to. So there's 322 00:19:56,480 --> 00:20:01,359 Speaker 1: that sensory experience you talk about in the book Magneto Reception, 323 00:20:01,920 --> 00:20:06,080 Speaker 1: that being able to detect the Earth's gravitational field. I'm 324 00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:11,000 Speaker 1: really jealous of that ability because I get very easily lost. 325 00:20:11,119 --> 00:20:15,080 Speaker 1: I'm I even with a map like two inches from 326 00:20:15,119 --> 00:20:17,879 Speaker 1: my face, I can get lost. So I would love 327 00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:21,680 Speaker 1: to have an internal compass like that. And I think, 328 00:20:21,880 --> 00:20:25,159 Speaker 1: you know, originally it was thought maybe only you know, 329 00:20:25,160 --> 00:20:28,320 Speaker 1: a few species had this, but it seems like more 330 00:20:28,359 --> 00:20:30,320 Speaker 1: the more we study it, the more it seems like 331 00:20:30,359 --> 00:20:34,320 Speaker 1: a lot of animals have this ability, and it seems 332 00:20:34,359 --> 00:20:40,760 Speaker 1: so magical to us, but it seems not that uncommon. Yeah, 333 00:20:41,160 --> 00:20:43,160 Speaker 1: there's a lot of animals that can sense the Earth's 334 00:20:43,160 --> 00:20:47,479 Speaker 1: magnetic field. Um. So songbirds definitely can do it. A 335 00:20:47,480 --> 00:20:50,120 Speaker 1: lot of species are known to do it and they 336 00:20:50,240 --> 00:20:54,520 Speaker 1: use that that ability to guide their migrations. Um. Sea 337 00:20:54,560 --> 00:20:58,399 Speaker 1: turtles can do it. Um. There's there's some really interesting 338 00:20:58,400 --> 00:21:02,440 Speaker 1: work sudjusting that giant whales can do it. Um. But yeah, 339 00:21:03,000 --> 00:21:07,480 Speaker 1: so this magnetic reception, the ability to sense Earth's magnetic field, 340 00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:11,520 Speaker 1: it's actually a very interesting and quite difficult case study 341 00:21:11,640 --> 00:21:15,159 Speaker 1: because there's a lot of work here and some of 342 00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:18,080 Speaker 1: it might be wrong. That there's a lot of debate 343 00:21:18,200 --> 00:21:21,480 Speaker 1: about which animals actually have this ability, Like the ones 344 00:21:21,520 --> 00:21:23,680 Speaker 1: I told you sea turtles and songbirds I think are 345 00:21:23,720 --> 00:21:27,800 Speaker 1: pretty are pretty clear. Those are those are pretty definitive. 346 00:21:28,119 --> 00:21:29,879 Speaker 1: But there's a long list of other creatures that are 347 00:21:29,920 --> 00:21:32,199 Speaker 1: said to have magnetic reception, and there's there's just a 348 00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:36,600 Speaker 1: bit of um debate in the scientific community. And partly 349 00:21:36,640 --> 00:21:41,479 Speaker 1: that debate exists because this is an incredibly hard sense 350 00:21:41,560 --> 00:21:45,720 Speaker 1: to study, Like, firstly, we don't have it, and also 351 00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:49,760 Speaker 1: it's very unintuitive. You know, if I if if you 352 00:21:49,840 --> 00:21:53,560 Speaker 1: asked me to explain to you how magnetism works, like 353 00:21:54,200 --> 00:21:57,320 Speaker 1: I would I would struggle, right, you know, like I 354 00:21:57,359 --> 00:21:59,040 Speaker 1: can I can show you, I can draw you like 355 00:21:59,080 --> 00:22:02,439 Speaker 1: a textbook picture of a bar magnet with like lines 356 00:22:02,480 --> 00:22:05,760 Speaker 1: coming out of it, but to actually understand on the 357 00:22:05,800 --> 00:22:09,479 Speaker 1: fundamental level is hard, and to appreciate then how that 358 00:22:09,560 --> 00:22:13,320 Speaker 1: might feel to an animal, like does there's this idea 359 00:22:13,440 --> 00:22:17,159 Speaker 1: that songbirds can actually see the magnetic field so that 360 00:22:17,200 --> 00:22:20,159 Speaker 1: they might have like an overlay on their vision that 361 00:22:20,240 --> 00:22:23,400 Speaker 1: sort of tells them where like north might be. And 362 00:22:23,560 --> 00:22:26,040 Speaker 1: you know, that might be true, but it might not, 363 00:22:26,320 --> 00:22:31,879 Speaker 1: Like you know, in either case, it's quite difficult to 364 00:22:31,880 --> 00:22:35,560 Speaker 1: to think about how that feels to an animal, like 365 00:22:35,640 --> 00:22:38,720 Speaker 1: does it does a does a migrating turtle always have 366 00:22:38,760 --> 00:22:42,840 Speaker 1: a little like tug towards like where north is? Does 367 00:22:42,840 --> 00:22:47,720 Speaker 1: it feel very differently um for something like that, which 368 00:22:47,760 --> 00:22:50,320 Speaker 1: is you know, entirely different a sense that we don't have. 369 00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:53,000 Speaker 1: It's not like, you know, trying to imagine a b 370 00:22:53,240 --> 00:22:57,919 Speaker 1: seeing ultra violet. It's it really taxes um that the 371 00:22:57,960 --> 00:23:01,879 Speaker 1: boundaries of our understanding, as does the rest of the sense. 372 00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:04,600 Speaker 1: You know, no one actually knows. Like for vision, right, 373 00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:08,679 Speaker 1: my vision is in my eyes, Um, the organ is clear. 374 00:23:09,160 --> 00:23:13,000 Speaker 1: That the molecules responsible for my ability to see are known, 375 00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:15,119 Speaker 1: and the way they work is clear. None of that 376 00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:17,600 Speaker 1: is clear. For magnetic reception, there are some there are 377 00:23:17,680 --> 00:23:21,640 Speaker 1: loads of theories, but the magnetic field penetrate cell bodies. 378 00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:24,120 Speaker 1: So a sense organ doesn't have to be on the surface, 379 00:23:24,160 --> 00:23:26,479 Speaker 1: it doesn't have to have like a hole that allows 380 00:23:26,520 --> 00:23:29,320 Speaker 1: it to access the environment. Could be anywhere. It could 381 00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:33,080 Speaker 1: be distributed throughout my entire body. It could be hidden 382 00:23:33,119 --> 00:23:35,920 Speaker 1: into in my internal organs, it could be in my butt. 383 00:23:36,119 --> 00:23:40,679 Speaker 1: Who who knows. Um, all these possibilities are are on 384 00:23:40,720 --> 00:23:45,720 Speaker 1: the table, which makes it a fiendishly difficult sense to study. 385 00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:48,480 Speaker 1: And so this goes back to what we talked about 386 00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:53,960 Speaker 1: about the link between imagination and discovery. The fact that 387 00:23:54,040 --> 00:23:58,240 Speaker 1: this sense taxes are imagination so means that the process 388 00:23:58,240 --> 00:24:01,439 Speaker 1: of discovery has been very slow and kind of jerky 389 00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:04,359 Speaker 1: and erratic. And for that reason, I think kind of 390 00:24:04,359 --> 00:24:07,120 Speaker 1: fun Yeah, No, I think it's in a way it's 391 00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:11,720 Speaker 1: comforting to me that we don't know things about the 392 00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:14,960 Speaker 1: animal world, because it really shows how rich it is. 393 00:24:15,240 --> 00:24:18,760 Speaker 1: If we already had discovered everything, everything was a settled science, 394 00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:23,360 Speaker 1: that would be I think it would feel lonely because 395 00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:26,240 Speaker 1: I think there's always this hope that will discover more 396 00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:29,960 Speaker 1: things to make us feel like we're not the only thinking, 397 00:24:30,119 --> 00:24:34,280 Speaker 1: feeling species on Earth. And so I love it when 398 00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:37,000 Speaker 1: it when there are these secrets, because to me, it 399 00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:39,520 Speaker 1: feels like, oh that this is another thing to try 400 00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:44,360 Speaker 1: to understand. And you know, having that understanding of animals 401 00:24:44,359 --> 00:24:46,680 Speaker 1: around us, you know, it makes me feel like, hey, 402 00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:49,840 Speaker 1: we're not you know, we're not the only thing around here. 403 00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:53,520 Speaker 1: We have a bunch of interesting creatures that have their 404 00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:57,200 Speaker 1: own internal experience and we can actually try to understand that. 405 00:24:58,400 --> 00:25:01,560 Speaker 1: Right And the wonderful thing here is is that every 406 00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:06,720 Speaker 1: creature has its own unique sensory world. So the amount 407 00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:11,600 Speaker 1: of stuff that you could potentially learn is is almost limitless, right. 408 00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:14,480 Speaker 1: It's it's limited only by the number of species that exist. 409 00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:19,719 Speaker 1: And wherever scientists look, it seems that they always find 410 00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:25,440 Speaker 1: something cool. Um And And because sensory biology is such 411 00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:28,320 Speaker 1: an an old, rich field with a deep history to it, 412 00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:32,639 Speaker 1: um And because surprises seem to be just around the 413 00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:36,000 Speaker 1: corner and and infinite in their number. There's a lot 414 00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:39,160 Speaker 1: of work on frankly, like weird animals. You know, it's 415 00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:42,760 Speaker 1: not like everything is just in like fruit flies or 416 00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:48,439 Speaker 1: dogs or elephants, like the book also includes catfish and 417 00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:52,000 Speaker 1: like golden moles. Um And you know that there are 418 00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:54,520 Speaker 1: probably I would hope there are animals here that like 419 00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:57,840 Speaker 1: people have never heard of before. And there's such a 420 00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:01,879 Speaker 1: rich vein of literature to to draw from that there 421 00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:04,639 Speaker 1: was such a rich vein to draw from in writing 422 00:26:04,640 --> 00:26:09,520 Speaker 1: this book because the questions are so fascinating. Um And 423 00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:12,439 Speaker 1: like the people who study this, who who work in 424 00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:15,679 Speaker 1: this field, seem to get like very easily drawn towards 425 00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:18,639 Speaker 1: like weirdos, you know, to to some random animal that 426 00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:22,160 Speaker 1: they happen to like walk past in a zoo or 427 00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:25,120 Speaker 1: you know, stumble across the field trip and they suddenly 428 00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:30,000 Speaker 1: become and throw like and and um enraptured by like 429 00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:34,760 Speaker 1: what by thinking about how that animal perceives? And yeah, 430 00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:40,280 Speaker 1: I think there's it meant. It means that it means 431 00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:43,320 Speaker 1: that the book gets to be diverse, and that I 432 00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:46,440 Speaker 1: get to write about a lot of um, a lot 433 00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:49,760 Speaker 1: of strange and wonderful things. Yeah, I mean I think 434 00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:53,720 Speaker 1: that it is the stranger the animal that maybe it 435 00:26:53,720 --> 00:26:57,080 Speaker 1: gets harder to empathize with it, but the more fascinating 436 00:26:57,119 --> 00:26:59,600 Speaker 1: it can be. So for example, in the book You 437 00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:05,280 Speaker 1: Discus u U Scalop TV study where Professor Daniel Spizer 438 00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:09,800 Speaker 1: put scalops in little scalop chairs and made them watch TV. 439 00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:14,840 Speaker 1: I love this studies so much. I love to visualize 440 00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:18,080 Speaker 1: a bunch of scalops in like a theater watching a movie. 441 00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:22,040 Speaker 1: And what I love about it also is that it 442 00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:25,720 Speaker 1: highlights the eyes of scalops. I think people can be 443 00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:30,440 Speaker 1: quite surprised that scalops have eyes. Uh, in fact, they 444 00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:34,000 Speaker 1: can have over a hundred eyes, and that they are 445 00:27:34,119 --> 00:27:37,320 Speaker 1: They're beautiful to me. They're they're like these little jewels, 446 00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:42,879 Speaker 1: these shiny, little, bright, bright blue jewels. And I love 447 00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:45,920 Speaker 1: just finding a hidden secret where you know, we're used 448 00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:48,240 Speaker 1: to scalops, like you say in the book, is just 449 00:27:48,359 --> 00:27:51,560 Speaker 1: kind of this tasty little cylinder of flesh on a plate, 450 00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:54,520 Speaker 1: but it's an animal and not and it has this 451 00:27:54,680 --> 00:27:59,119 Speaker 1: sensory experience. And this scalop TV study is really weird 452 00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:01,960 Speaker 1: but really into sting. Could you talk a little bit 453 00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:06,640 Speaker 1: about it. Yeah. I love the study because everyone involved 454 00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:09,840 Speaker 1: is very clear that this was an absolutely absurd experiment 455 00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:13,280 Speaker 1: to try and they no one thought that it would work, 456 00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:15,680 Speaker 1: but they gave it a go and it and they 457 00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:18,000 Speaker 1: found something really cool, which is that if you put 458 00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:21,160 Speaker 1: scalops like on these these little I don't know, scalop 459 00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:25,879 Speaker 1: armchairs and show them movies like just a little little 460 00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:31,600 Speaker 1: flecks of food, like little particles drifting by on a screen, um, 461 00:28:31,760 --> 00:28:35,199 Speaker 1: they you know, they will react, they'll open their shells, 462 00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:39,280 Speaker 1: they'll extend their their their little sensory tentacles in a 463 00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:44,840 Speaker 1: kind of curious way. And okay, so so to explain 464 00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:49,120 Speaker 1: what this means, um As as we said, a scalop 465 00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:51,320 Speaker 1: is a living animal. It is not just like a 466 00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:53,880 Speaker 1: lump of flash. The flesh is like the muscle of 467 00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:56,520 Speaker 1: the scalps foot. But there's a whole other animal besides 468 00:28:56,560 --> 00:29:01,040 Speaker 1: that inside the shell, and that includes eyes. Has rows 469 00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:07,960 Speaker 1: of very beautiful, quite surprisingly complex eyes. And this experiment 470 00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:12,520 Speaker 1: the scientists in who did it and I thought that 471 00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:15,960 Speaker 1: maybe the eyes are used to to spot passing food. Um. 472 00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:18,800 Speaker 1: You know, scalops will filter bits of food um part 473 00:29:18,880 --> 00:29:21,240 Speaker 1: of floating past them. So maybe the eyes detect that 474 00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:24,800 Speaker 1: and and allow the scalpt to two on the momb. 475 00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:29,400 Speaker 1: But um, what they actually think is that now is 476 00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:33,560 Speaker 1: that the scalops of these like centory tentacles that smell 477 00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:37,520 Speaker 1: and and taste and feel, and the eyes are just 478 00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:40,040 Speaker 1: a way of saying, hey, there's something interesting over there, 479 00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:42,880 Speaker 1: and the tentacles allow them to then explore with their 480 00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:46,960 Speaker 1: other sensors um, which is really cool. But I think, 481 00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:50,320 Speaker 1: like the thing that's extraordinary to me about this is 482 00:29:51,160 --> 00:29:55,040 Speaker 1: I think, try and think about what a scalop sees. 483 00:29:55,920 --> 00:29:59,960 Speaker 1: Because the eyes are, like I said, they're surprisingly complicated. 484 00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:05,920 Speaker 1: Like they they have reasonable optics. Um. So each eye 485 00:30:06,080 --> 00:30:08,680 Speaker 1: has like you know, nowhere near as a good division 486 00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:14,440 Speaker 1: as us, but they have decent image forming abilities. But 487 00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:19,239 Speaker 1: the scalps brain is really simple, Like the scalop is 488 00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:23,760 Speaker 1: almost certainly not experiencing like a movie playing through its 489 00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:25,680 Speaker 1: head in the same way that you and I are 490 00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:29,200 Speaker 1: now like looking up the world around us. Um. So 491 00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:33,600 Speaker 1: the way I the way I UM imagine this in 492 00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:38,880 Speaker 1: the book, it's as if imagine that every eye is 493 00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:42,840 Speaker 1: like a state of the art motion sensing camera. Um. 494 00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:46,680 Speaker 1: The camera is amazing, and they all feed into this 495 00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:49,440 Speaker 1: bank of monitors, and the scalops brain is like a 496 00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:53,520 Speaker 1: security guard looking over this bank of monitors. Um that 497 00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:56,000 Speaker 1: that gets the feed from the cameras. But but here's 498 00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:59,480 Speaker 1: the thing. Even though each camera is actually very good, 499 00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:02,920 Speaker 1: what it gives to the monitor is just like a 500 00:31:03,040 --> 00:31:06,120 Speaker 1: yes or no, did it see something or not? So 501 00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:10,000 Speaker 1: the security guard isn't looking at this like wall of 502 00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:13,479 Speaker 1: moving images. It's just really looking at this wall of 503 00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:15,880 Speaker 1: like maybe a thumbs up or a thumbs down, depending 504 00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:20,840 Speaker 1: on whether the camera has spotted something. So it's vision, 505 00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:27,440 Speaker 1: but it's vision without scenes. And that's very hard to 506 00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:31,760 Speaker 1: imagine because our visual experience is entirely based on scenes, 507 00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:34,920 Speaker 1: right Like I'm looking around my room in my house 508 00:31:35,040 --> 00:31:39,160 Speaker 1: right now. No, imagine if you didn't have that. Imagine 509 00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:42,040 Speaker 1: if you you could see stuff happening around you, you 510 00:31:42,080 --> 00:31:45,440 Speaker 1: were visually aware of it, but you didn't have that 511 00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:50,600 Speaker 1: that scenery playing out in your mind. You know, I can't, 512 00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:53,280 Speaker 1: Like I really struggled to do that. But that I 513 00:31:53,320 --> 00:31:57,440 Speaker 1: think is a much closer approximation of what a scallop experiences. 514 00:31:57,920 --> 00:32:02,640 Speaker 1: You know, this immediately minded me of blind sight in 515 00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:08,080 Speaker 1: cortically blind individuals. So that's people who have blindness due 516 00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:12,320 Speaker 1: to lesions in their visual cortex. But their eyes, they're 517 00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:16,800 Speaker 1: actually like the their eyes in their that sensory organ 518 00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:22,320 Speaker 1: is completely intact and functioning fine. It's just the in 519 00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:28,280 Speaker 1: the visual cortex where we process that visual information is damaged. 520 00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:33,680 Speaker 1: And so people with this are will report not having 521 00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:39,360 Speaker 1: that visual experience, just as as if they had regular blindness. 522 00:32:39,760 --> 00:32:44,320 Speaker 1: But when they do have a visual stimuli, they often 523 00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:50,280 Speaker 1: will react subconsciously even though they're not experiencing seeing that thing. 524 00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:55,360 Speaker 1: So especially with object movements, so like they may react 525 00:32:55,520 --> 00:33:00,920 Speaker 1: to a moving object but not actually were court being 526 00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:03,960 Speaker 1: aware of that, So like they get a sense of 527 00:33:04,040 --> 00:33:08,200 Speaker 1: feeling about, you know, movement, but they don't actually have 528 00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:13,000 Speaker 1: that conscious experience, which is so it's so interesting, and 529 00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:15,440 Speaker 1: I mean, I think this is also kind of like 530 00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:19,120 Speaker 1: what you were saying earlier, how respecting sort of the 531 00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:24,760 Speaker 1: diversity of human experience in science can be really important 532 00:33:24,840 --> 00:33:27,840 Speaker 1: in understanding the world around us, because I imagine that 533 00:33:28,120 --> 00:33:33,600 Speaker 1: people with this experience may have more insight into that 534 00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:36,440 Speaker 1: kind of having that kind of like not having the 535 00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:41,000 Speaker 1: visual experience that a lot of people have, but still 536 00:33:41,080 --> 00:33:46,840 Speaker 1: have their eyes still reacting to the world around them. Yeah, absolutely, 537 00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:50,480 Speaker 1: I think that that's such a that comparison is spot on, 538 00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:53,720 Speaker 1: and it makes me to think two things, like, firstly, 539 00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:57,520 Speaker 1: that there is this that they can be this very 540 00:33:57,560 --> 00:34:03,440 Speaker 1: stock difference between sensing on and perception on the one hand, 541 00:34:03,600 --> 00:34:07,680 Speaker 1: and then conscious experience on the other, And we sort of, 542 00:34:08,440 --> 00:34:11,640 Speaker 1: I think we're given to thinking that those two things 543 00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:14,880 Speaker 1: are inseparable, but but of course they're not, And Blindside 544 00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:16,919 Speaker 1: is an example of that. So so when we think about, 545 00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:20,440 Speaker 1: for example, um, you know, a songbird sensing the Earth's 546 00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:23,040 Speaker 1: magnetic field, it could work in the same way, like 547 00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:26,360 Speaker 1: maybe it actually has no conscious awareness at all, It 548 00:34:26,480 --> 00:34:29,480 Speaker 1: just has this sort of reflexive set of behaviors that 549 00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:32,960 Speaker 1: that guide it to where it knows north or south 550 00:34:33,080 --> 00:34:37,120 Speaker 1: might be. Um, you know, there's there's a lot about 551 00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:41,960 Speaker 1: the senses that could basically just be about detection without 552 00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:46,160 Speaker 1: necessarily involving a conscious experience. Like there's a whole chapter 553 00:34:46,200 --> 00:34:49,000 Speaker 1: in the book about pain and how we think about 554 00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:53,160 Speaker 1: that that that that draws heavily on that idea. Um. 555 00:34:53,160 --> 00:34:55,879 Speaker 1: But you know, what you said about about Blindside also 556 00:34:55,920 --> 00:34:58,440 Speaker 1: made me think about the chapter in the book where 557 00:34:58,480 --> 00:35:02,960 Speaker 1: I write about echolocation and an ability that bats and 558 00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:09,759 Speaker 1: dolphins have and and some other mammals, but including humans, right, so, um, 559 00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:14,799 Speaker 1: some blind people can absolutely echolocate, like not as well 560 00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:17,600 Speaker 1: as a bat, but but pretty damn well. I met 561 00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:21,239 Speaker 1: one of them. His name is Daniel kish Um. You 562 00:35:21,280 --> 00:35:24,799 Speaker 1: know he he he is. He was blind from an 563 00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:28,160 Speaker 1: extremely young age, and he walks around with a cane. 564 00:35:28,239 --> 00:35:32,000 Speaker 1: But he also echolocates. He makes loud, sharp clicking noises 565 00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:35,560 Speaker 1: with his tongue, and he senses the world in the 566 00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:38,440 Speaker 1: rebounding echoes. You know, we we we were walking along 567 00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:42,080 Speaker 1: the street. Um, he knows when a tree branches in 568 00:35:42,120 --> 00:35:45,240 Speaker 1: his way. He can tell me as we're walking along, 569 00:35:45,239 --> 00:35:48,480 Speaker 1: like where houses are, where parked cars are, you know, 570 00:35:48,520 --> 00:35:54,320 Speaker 1: where bushes and fences are. And it's it's it's amazing 571 00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:57,120 Speaker 1: because I think, like you know, Daniel points out that 572 00:35:57,239 --> 00:36:01,840 Speaker 1: there are even echolocation researchers who don't know that humans 573 00:36:02,239 --> 00:36:06,479 Speaker 1: can do this. Um, but but they very much can. 574 00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:12,120 Speaker 1: And and I think this again speaks to why this 575 00:36:12,160 --> 00:36:15,719 Speaker 1: stuff is difficult to to think about and to to 576 00:36:16,239 --> 00:36:21,239 Speaker 1: to imagine, because like a dog or a songbird or 577 00:36:21,239 --> 00:36:23,359 Speaker 1: an elephant, and none of these things, none of these 578 00:36:23,360 --> 00:36:26,560 Speaker 1: animals have language, right, they can't tell me about their experience. 579 00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:29,520 Speaker 1: But but Daniel obviously can you know, he he can 580 00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:33,000 Speaker 1: describe what he senses, how how he experiences the world 581 00:36:33,040 --> 00:36:37,560 Speaker 1: through location. But even so, there is an enormous barrier 582 00:36:37,640 --> 00:36:41,360 Speaker 1: there because he doesn't have any memory of of being cited. 583 00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:44,200 Speaker 1: I don't know what it's like to echo locate. So 584 00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:47,480 Speaker 1: even though we have the same language, we're still trying 585 00:36:47,480 --> 00:36:50,080 Speaker 1: to convey things that neither of us are really privy to. 586 00:36:50,880 --> 00:36:54,600 Speaker 1: And because he grew up in a world with several 587 00:36:54,600 --> 00:36:58,480 Speaker 1: billion cited people, a lot of his language is visual. 588 00:36:58,640 --> 00:37:02,960 Speaker 1: You know, he he uses visual metaphors when describing the 589 00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:06,480 Speaker 1: way he echolocates in a way that like I can 590 00:37:06,680 --> 00:37:09,560 Speaker 1: kind of tap into. But you know, if he's describing 591 00:37:09,600 --> 00:37:12,839 Speaker 1: something as like a bright or a flash, like, who 592 00:37:12,880 --> 00:37:14,839 Speaker 1: knows whether the two of us are using the same 593 00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:18,600 Speaker 1: words to to really convey the same kinds of qualities. 594 00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:21,319 Speaker 1: And this is what I said at the start, there's 595 00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:25,919 Speaker 1: always a gulf that there's always a chasm between our 596 00:37:26,080 --> 00:37:29,920 Speaker 1: sensory experience and that of another animal or in this case, 597 00:37:30,080 --> 00:37:34,640 Speaker 1: another human who just happens to be sensor early diverse um. 598 00:37:34,880 --> 00:37:38,000 Speaker 1: And that's why you know, these these acts of imagination 599 00:37:38,280 --> 00:37:42,840 Speaker 1: and being thoughtful about how you conceive of other senses 600 00:37:43,280 --> 00:37:48,440 Speaker 1: is so important. Yeah, I think sometimes people separate empathy 601 00:37:48,520 --> 00:37:51,520 Speaker 1: and trying to understand other people from science, Like there's 602 00:37:51,560 --> 00:37:54,879 Speaker 1: hard science and then there's emotion, you know, like emotional 603 00:37:55,560 --> 00:37:59,600 Speaker 1: intelligence and scientific intelligence, and that I really think that's 604 00:37:59,719 --> 00:38:04,040 Speaker 1: does such a disservice to science because having having that 605 00:38:04,200 --> 00:38:08,000 Speaker 1: emotional intelligence where you really want to understand another person, 606 00:38:08,920 --> 00:38:12,680 Speaker 1: I think is is such a key to be able 607 00:38:12,719 --> 00:38:15,120 Speaker 1: to do good science, because how do you come up 608 00:38:15,280 --> 00:38:20,919 Speaker 1: with a good study that had investigates something that needs 609 00:38:20,960 --> 00:38:24,479 Speaker 1: to be investigated without being able to connect to other 610 00:38:24,560 --> 00:38:29,360 Speaker 1: people and their different experience and learn from that um 611 00:38:29,400 --> 00:38:33,560 Speaker 1: A degree, I think the people who think that who 612 00:38:33,680 --> 00:38:37,240 Speaker 1: who think you know the um what what you said? 613 00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:41,400 Speaker 1: The people who think that science is cold and detached 614 00:38:41,640 --> 00:38:47,799 Speaker 1: and unemotional honestly are just terrible scientists. Um Like, I 615 00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:51,440 Speaker 1: don't trust the quality of their work because, like we said, 616 00:38:52,160 --> 00:38:55,160 Speaker 1: our in this case, our senses, but more broadly, luck, 617 00:38:55,200 --> 00:38:59,920 Speaker 1: our experience, our culture or values profoundly influence the kind 618 00:39:00,400 --> 00:39:04,759 Speaker 1: of questions that we ask, the way we design experiments 619 00:39:04,760 --> 00:39:10,560 Speaker 1: to probe those questions, the way we interpret the returning results. 620 00:39:11,239 --> 00:39:15,239 Speaker 1: And if you think that that whole process exists in 621 00:39:15,280 --> 00:39:19,560 Speaker 1: a social and emotional vacuum, then you will be completely 622 00:39:19,600 --> 00:39:23,440 Speaker 1: oblivious to the biases that you bring into it. And 623 00:39:23,520 --> 00:39:26,400 Speaker 1: so which is why I don't trust the work of 624 00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:29,160 Speaker 1: people who think in that way, you know, because I 625 00:39:29,200 --> 00:39:33,000 Speaker 1: think that there's a certain thoughtlessness there that leads to 626 00:39:34,360 --> 00:39:38,320 Speaker 1: misleading research. I mean, even in the field of animal sciences, 627 00:39:39,800 --> 00:39:43,640 Speaker 1: there have been so many cases. I mean, there's tons 628 00:39:43,680 --> 00:39:48,000 Speaker 1: in the book where people drew the wrong conclusions about 629 00:39:48,040 --> 00:39:52,240 Speaker 1: what animals were doing for decades or even centuries because 630 00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:54,799 Speaker 1: they just weren't paying attention, because they were they were 631 00:39:54,840 --> 00:40:00,440 Speaker 1: scoffing at the idea of of animals doing something vastly different. 632 00:40:01,680 --> 00:40:08,360 Speaker 1: Many weird senses like echolocation, the electric senses of electric fish, 633 00:40:08,880 --> 00:40:13,440 Speaker 1: magneto reception, the the infrared senses of of rattlesnakes, and 634 00:40:13,560 --> 00:40:17,520 Speaker 1: many other animals have all been subject to this. There's 635 00:40:17,600 --> 00:40:20,480 Speaker 1: long histories of people thinking that the animals were doing 636 00:40:20,520 --> 00:40:22,880 Speaker 1: all kinds of weird stuff aside from what they were 637 00:40:22,880 --> 00:40:29,920 Speaker 1: actually doing. Because there existing understanding of the world and 638 00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:34,879 Speaker 1: the limitations of their own sense. Organs like cut off 639 00:40:35,160 --> 00:40:42,120 Speaker 1: the possibility of thinking about the much weirder very different reality. 640 00:40:42,640 --> 00:40:45,279 Speaker 1: Well that's where the concept of blind as a bat 641 00:40:45,400 --> 00:40:50,440 Speaker 1: came from. People would see bats kind of flitting about erratically, 642 00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:53,120 Speaker 1: as if they didn't know where they were going, But 643 00:40:53,280 --> 00:40:58,040 Speaker 1: in fact they are. That erratic movement is actually quite 644 00:40:58,160 --> 00:41:03,120 Speaker 1: calculated to hone in on an insect as they're using 645 00:41:03,239 --> 00:41:06,400 Speaker 1: their echolocation. And they're also, as you point out in 646 00:41:06,400 --> 00:41:09,000 Speaker 1: the book, they are not blind either in even in 647 00:41:09,040 --> 00:41:12,799 Speaker 1: the traditional sense. They can use their eyes, but their 648 00:41:12,840 --> 00:41:17,520 Speaker 1: echolocation skills are the most useful in hunting insects. But yeah, 649 00:41:17,680 --> 00:41:22,200 Speaker 1: we had this misconception about bats being blind for so long, 650 00:41:22,400 --> 00:41:26,160 Speaker 1: just by misinterpreting their movement, that the way that they 651 00:41:26,200 --> 00:41:30,120 Speaker 1: move in the sky, and assuming that taking a straight 652 00:41:30,160 --> 00:41:32,600 Speaker 1: path from point A to point B is the correct 653 00:41:32,680 --> 00:41:37,440 Speaker 1: way to hunt something or or to move around. Right. 654 00:41:37,440 --> 00:41:40,000 Speaker 1: You know, people scoffed at the idea of echolocation when 655 00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:43,000 Speaker 1: it first when it was first proposed. You know, they're 656 00:41:43,040 --> 00:41:46,160 Speaker 1: they're great stories of like um, you know, so, like 657 00:41:46,280 --> 00:41:49,400 Speaker 1: Robert Glambo is one of the co discoverers being you know, 658 00:41:49,680 --> 00:41:52,120 Speaker 1: having a guy shaking his shoulders at a meeting, going 659 00:41:52,160 --> 00:41:57,920 Speaker 1: you can't possibly mean that, um, you know, so, Donald 660 00:41:57,960 --> 00:42:01,600 Speaker 1: Griffin the the the the other person and who pioneered 661 00:42:01,600 --> 00:42:05,360 Speaker 1: the study. Beck of location wrote about this idea of 662 00:42:06,239 --> 00:42:08,920 Speaker 1: the echo location as a magic well, a thing that 663 00:42:09,800 --> 00:42:13,720 Speaker 1: just yielded one kept on yielding, like one discovery after another. 664 00:42:14,120 --> 00:42:18,400 Speaker 1: But he also wrote about how scientists were often limited 665 00:42:18,480 --> 00:42:21,920 Speaker 1: by the scope of their own imaginations, um and and 666 00:42:21,960 --> 00:42:25,960 Speaker 1: so you know, just just didn't even countenance the possibility 667 00:42:26,040 --> 00:42:30,320 Speaker 1: that something weird and beyond what they could could imagine 668 00:42:30,360 --> 00:42:33,040 Speaker 1: was actually going on. And it's sort of ironic because 669 00:42:33,040 --> 00:42:35,920 Speaker 1: like Griffin himself was very skeptical about the existence of 670 00:42:36,000 --> 00:42:39,200 Speaker 1: magneta reception as a sense, right, so we were all 671 00:42:39,280 --> 00:42:44,160 Speaker 1: kind of subject to this. So in terms of the 672 00:42:44,200 --> 00:42:46,440 Speaker 1: blinders a bad metaphor, I think part of that also 673 00:42:46,560 --> 00:42:50,440 Speaker 1: is related to able is um that you know, we 674 00:42:50,440 --> 00:42:55,000 Speaker 1: we we think of like the kind of average default 675 00:42:55,200 --> 00:42:57,800 Speaker 1: human sensorium as the norm and anything that sort of 676 00:42:57,840 --> 00:43:00,920 Speaker 1: deviates from that as as being worse. So blind is 677 00:43:00,960 --> 00:43:04,680 Speaker 1: about is derogatory, not really just to bat but also 678 00:43:04,719 --> 00:43:08,080 Speaker 1: to blind people. Um. You know, there's this assumption that 679 00:43:08,160 --> 00:43:13,120 Speaker 1: like site is good and a lack of sight is bad. 680 00:43:13,280 --> 00:43:16,839 Speaker 1: You know, we talk about darkness as being a bad thing. 681 00:43:17,080 --> 00:43:20,760 Speaker 1: You know, we we talked about we we equate blindness 682 00:43:20,840 --> 00:43:26,880 Speaker 1: with um, with obliviousness with ignorance. UM. But of course, 683 00:43:27,239 --> 00:43:31,600 Speaker 1: you know, blind people are profoundly aware of their surroundings. 684 00:43:31,719 --> 00:43:36,080 Speaker 1: You know, they have um, you know abilities and and 685 00:43:36,480 --> 00:43:40,120 Speaker 1: and awareness is that that cited people don't possess and 686 00:43:40,280 --> 00:43:42,600 Speaker 1: and sort of can't really and and often don't think 687 00:43:42,600 --> 00:43:46,160 Speaker 1: about it or underappreciate. And the same goes for many 688 00:43:46,160 --> 00:43:50,640 Speaker 1: other animals that have de emphasized division in favor of 689 00:43:50,760 --> 00:43:54,279 Speaker 1: other sites, other senses. UM. So yeah, there's there's a 690 00:43:54,280 --> 00:43:57,960 Speaker 1: lot at play here. There's um and and thro oper centrism, 691 00:43:58,000 --> 00:44:00,799 Speaker 1: there's able is um that there's a lot that goes 692 00:44:00,840 --> 00:44:09,440 Speaker 1: into some of these negative and and um frankly wrong stereotypes. Yeah. Absolutely, 693 00:44:09,719 --> 00:44:12,759 Speaker 1: And I think that assumption that you cannot have a 694 00:44:12,880 --> 00:44:17,520 Speaker 1: rich inner world unless you have the senses, like the 695 00:44:17,680 --> 00:44:22,520 Speaker 1: kind of assumed senses and the assumed state that a 696 00:44:22,680 --> 00:44:25,560 Speaker 1: human should be in, right, like, okay, we all need 697 00:44:25,640 --> 00:44:28,560 Speaker 1: to be a certain way. We can't have any kind 698 00:44:28,560 --> 00:44:33,040 Speaker 1: of cognitive differences or sensory differences otherwise you must have 699 00:44:33,080 --> 00:44:38,000 Speaker 1: a more impoverished uh inner world is of course very wrong. 700 00:44:38,120 --> 00:44:41,120 Speaker 1: And I think we are as a society kind of 701 00:44:41,160 --> 00:44:45,600 Speaker 1: starting to reckon with that, this idea that you know, 702 00:44:45,760 --> 00:44:50,760 Speaker 1: having having a different perspective, having different cognition, having different 703 00:44:50,840 --> 00:44:56,120 Speaker 1: sensory experiences is not something that robs you of you know, 704 00:44:56,239 --> 00:45:02,360 Speaker 1: that richness of being. It's just it is a different experience, 705 00:45:02,440 --> 00:45:05,480 Speaker 1: you know, It's not we don't have to have carbon 706 00:45:05,600 --> 00:45:10,800 Speaker 1: copy experiences in um as you say, like the unvelt 707 00:45:11,239 --> 00:45:15,600 Speaker 1: as everyone else. In fact, having people who have different perspectives, 708 00:45:15,719 --> 00:45:23,040 Speaker 1: different sensory experiences, different cognitive experiences, can be very enriching. Yeah. Absolutely, 709 00:45:23,320 --> 00:45:26,040 Speaker 1: And you know there's this I think there's this kind 710 00:45:26,040 --> 00:45:29,000 Speaker 1: of very deep seated idea that like more is better 711 00:45:29,239 --> 00:45:31,799 Speaker 1: when it comes to the senses um and so color 712 00:45:31,840 --> 00:45:33,920 Speaker 1: blindness is a great example of this. Right, there are 713 00:45:33,960 --> 00:45:37,239 Speaker 1: loads of people who see a small narrow range of 714 00:45:37,280 --> 00:45:41,680 Speaker 1: colors than the average person. But you know that's no 715 00:45:41,800 --> 00:45:47,200 Speaker 1: different than the vast majority of other animals, especially mammals. Right. 716 00:45:47,239 --> 00:45:51,239 Speaker 1: So most mammals are dichromatic, which means they have two 717 00:45:51,239 --> 00:45:53,960 Speaker 1: types of color sensing cells in their eyes as opposed 718 00:45:53,960 --> 00:45:57,120 Speaker 1: to three that we have. So my dog Pipo is dichromatic. 719 00:45:57,239 --> 00:46:02,960 Speaker 1: He his rainbow stems from yellow to blue with like 720 00:46:03,160 --> 00:46:06,600 Speaker 1: whites and grays in the middle instead of greens. And 721 00:46:06,680 --> 00:46:09,520 Speaker 1: that's what a lot of color blind people have. And 722 00:46:09,600 --> 00:46:12,480 Speaker 1: it's fine, Like there's there's it's not the case that 723 00:46:12,600 --> 00:46:16,960 Speaker 1: like having three kinds of color sensing cells is inherently 724 00:46:17,000 --> 00:46:18,840 Speaker 1: better than two. And in fact, we know that's not 725 00:46:18,880 --> 00:46:21,399 Speaker 1: the case, firstly because so many mammals have only two. 726 00:46:21,800 --> 00:46:24,440 Speaker 1: But also like there are many species of monkey in 727 00:46:24,520 --> 00:46:28,880 Speaker 1: South America, so the females either are trichromatic or dichromatic, 728 00:46:28,920 --> 00:46:32,920 Speaker 1: but all the males are dichromaticum, So there's variation in 729 00:46:33,280 --> 00:46:35,920 Speaker 1: what kinds of colors. Even like a brother and a 730 00:46:36,000 --> 00:46:40,760 Speaker 1: sister monkey can see. The trichromatic females are much better 731 00:46:40,840 --> 00:46:44,439 Speaker 1: at spotting fruit from a distance, but the dichromatic males 732 00:46:44,440 --> 00:46:48,000 Speaker 1: are much better at breaking the camouflage of hidden insects. 733 00:46:48,600 --> 00:46:51,600 Speaker 1: So there's like there's pros and cons of each and 734 00:46:51,640 --> 00:46:54,400 Speaker 1: it's definitely not the case that more is better. So 735 00:46:54,440 --> 00:46:56,879 Speaker 1: if you think about like color blind people, like there 736 00:46:56,920 --> 00:47:01,040 Speaker 1: are things that people with color blindness find different court Um, 737 00:47:01,080 --> 00:47:04,560 Speaker 1: you know a lot of tasks that involve m colors, 738 00:47:04,600 --> 00:47:08,360 Speaker 1: like I don't know, uh, you know, looking at paint 739 00:47:08,440 --> 00:47:14,560 Speaker 1: swatches or sometimes electrical wiring traffic lights can be confusing. Um, 740 00:47:14,560 --> 00:47:18,000 Speaker 1: but like, none of that has to be the case. 741 00:47:18,880 --> 00:47:22,960 Speaker 1: Color blindness only becomes a disability because we've created a 742 00:47:22,960 --> 00:47:27,120 Speaker 1: world that caters for the vision of trichromatic people. Um. 743 00:47:27,160 --> 00:47:31,040 Speaker 1: You know, there's nothing inherently worse about about being a 744 00:47:31,080 --> 00:47:35,520 Speaker 1: dichromat versus a trichromat. Um, it's just what we choose 745 00:47:35,640 --> 00:47:40,279 Speaker 1: to value and accommodate to. UM. So yeah, in many, 746 00:47:40,320 --> 00:47:43,400 Speaker 1: many ways, I think this book is call for empathy, 747 00:47:43,520 --> 00:47:48,800 Speaker 1: to call for trying to understand the experiences of other creatures, 748 00:47:48,880 --> 00:47:53,719 Speaker 1: but but also other people too. You know, I had 749 00:47:53,800 --> 00:47:57,040 Speaker 1: this question because this relates a little bit to you. 750 00:47:57,120 --> 00:48:02,319 Speaker 1: Also your coverage of COVID ninth team is that sometimes 751 00:48:02,400 --> 00:48:06,560 Speaker 1: when people find out that, oh, you know, COVID nineteam 752 00:48:06,600 --> 00:48:09,680 Speaker 1: may have had an animal origin, like that, well, doesn't 753 00:48:09,680 --> 00:48:12,719 Speaker 1: that mean we should cold this animal? Like shouldn't we 754 00:48:13,239 --> 00:48:17,319 Speaker 1: avoid researching them or you know, get rid of them? 755 00:48:17,360 --> 00:48:20,040 Speaker 1: Like is it so bad if a species goes extinct 756 00:48:20,280 --> 00:48:24,480 Speaker 1: if we get rid of the threat of COVID or something? 757 00:48:24,840 --> 00:48:27,480 Speaker 1: And of course I think there are several things wrong 758 00:48:27,520 --> 00:48:30,200 Speaker 1: with this, one being like the idea that you could 759 00:48:30,280 --> 00:48:33,600 Speaker 1: get rid of one species and eliminate an animal like 760 00:48:33,680 --> 00:48:37,520 Speaker 1: all animal reservoirs of a disease. And also this idea, 761 00:48:37,680 --> 00:48:41,799 Speaker 1: like the jumping to the idea of destruction, you know, 762 00:48:42,040 --> 00:48:47,040 Speaker 1: destroying something in the name of some kind of imagined safety, 763 00:48:47,160 --> 00:48:51,840 Speaker 1: rather than trying instead to actually understand more how is 764 00:48:51,920 --> 00:48:55,640 Speaker 1: the relationship between humans and animals leading to health crises 765 00:48:56,000 --> 00:48:58,879 Speaker 1: both in humans and in animals, and what we can 766 00:48:58,960 --> 00:49:02,960 Speaker 1: do to prevent that. So, you know, you're you're someone 767 00:49:03,000 --> 00:49:08,160 Speaker 1: who is both very well versed in these zoonotic diseases 768 00:49:08,200 --> 00:49:12,120 Speaker 1: as well as you know the basically that we should 769 00:49:12,160 --> 00:49:14,920 Speaker 1: respect animals and respect their rights to be here. So 770 00:49:15,080 --> 00:49:18,120 Speaker 1: what what would you say to someone who feels that way, 771 00:49:18,160 --> 00:49:21,799 Speaker 1: that like we should either be afraid of these animals 772 00:49:21,920 --> 00:49:25,080 Speaker 1: or get rid of them when they are in our, uh, 773 00:49:25,280 --> 00:49:30,200 Speaker 1: you know, territory or what we perceived to be our territory. Right, 774 00:49:30,280 --> 00:49:33,040 Speaker 1: I think right, I think it's it's it's a profoundly 775 00:49:33,120 --> 00:49:35,879 Speaker 1: misguided idea. I mean, I can see why people think that. 776 00:49:36,640 --> 00:49:40,400 Speaker 1: So Sarscoby too almost certainly came from a bat um, 777 00:49:40,480 --> 00:49:43,680 Speaker 1: and bats in general harbor a lot of viruses that 778 00:49:43,719 --> 00:49:47,360 Speaker 1: could potentially cause problems for humans. But you know a 779 00:49:47,360 --> 00:49:50,920 Speaker 1: couple of things. Firstly, bats are incredibly important and they 780 00:49:50,960 --> 00:49:55,799 Speaker 1: play you know, vital, irreplaceable roles in most of the 781 00:49:55,840 --> 00:49:58,839 Speaker 1: ecosystems where they live, so you just can't get rid 782 00:49:58,880 --> 00:50:02,960 Speaker 1: of bats. Second, there are a lot of bats. It's like, 783 00:50:03,120 --> 00:50:06,560 Speaker 1: you know, bats are like a fifth of all mammal species, 784 00:50:06,600 --> 00:50:08,920 Speaker 1: and they're incredible creatures in their own right, like the 785 00:50:08,960 --> 00:50:12,600 Speaker 1: specific group um that is, you know that that stars 786 00:50:12,640 --> 00:50:16,600 Speaker 1: like viruses are often found in have this incredible style 787 00:50:16,600 --> 00:50:19,640 Speaker 1: of echo location that is even like weirder and more 788 00:50:19,719 --> 00:50:23,399 Speaker 1: advanced and more sophisticated than what like your average bat 789 00:50:23,480 --> 00:50:27,080 Speaker 1: can do, which is already pretty spectacular. So there's that, 790 00:50:27,120 --> 00:50:30,239 Speaker 1: there's you know, there's what we stand to lose. But 791 00:50:30,280 --> 00:50:33,240 Speaker 1: then there's also the fact that this idea as signs 792 00:50:33,280 --> 00:50:38,520 Speaker 1: blamed to entirely the wrong party, Like why are zoonotic events, 793 00:50:38,680 --> 00:50:41,520 Speaker 1: Why are zoonotics belovers becoming more common? They're becoming more 794 00:50:41,600 --> 00:50:45,759 Speaker 1: common because we have destroyed habitat, because we have approached 795 00:50:45,840 --> 00:50:49,120 Speaker 1: into the spaces where animals, wild animals live, and because 796 00:50:49,160 --> 00:50:52,080 Speaker 1: we have crushed those animals into smaller and smaller rangers. 797 00:50:52,600 --> 00:50:55,240 Speaker 1: You know, it's said in one of my pandemic pieces. 798 00:50:55,280 --> 00:50:58,440 Speaker 1: You know, it's as if we've we've been crushing the 799 00:50:58,480 --> 00:51:02,200 Speaker 1: world's wildlife in an ever tightening fist, and what happens 800 00:51:02,239 --> 00:51:05,960 Speaker 1: is that viruses start bursting out of that. But you know, 801 00:51:06,239 --> 00:51:10,880 Speaker 1: there's also the fact that we are reshuffling the networks 802 00:51:10,880 --> 00:51:14,759 Speaker 1: of mammals and their viruses all around the world. As 803 00:51:14,880 --> 00:51:18,840 Speaker 1: the world warms because of climate change, um species of 804 00:51:19,160 --> 00:51:22,600 Speaker 1: mammals that mammals are having to move in order to 805 00:51:22,680 --> 00:51:26,439 Speaker 1: track new areas that have the environments that they were 806 00:51:26,520 --> 00:51:30,840 Speaker 1: well adapted to. As this happened, species that never previously 807 00:51:30,880 --> 00:51:33,560 Speaker 1: co existed are meeting each other for the first time, 808 00:51:33,920 --> 00:51:37,279 Speaker 1: which create opportunities for their viruses to hop into new 809 00:51:37,320 --> 00:51:41,520 Speaker 1: hosts and then eventually into us. This has been happening 810 00:51:41,960 --> 00:51:45,080 Speaker 1: for decades now, and we're sort of in the peak 811 00:51:45,120 --> 00:51:48,160 Speaker 1: of that process as we speak, which means that the 812 00:51:48,239 --> 00:51:51,560 Speaker 1: kinds of events that lead to a new coronavirus ripping 813 00:51:51,600 --> 00:51:54,400 Speaker 1: through the human population are becoming more and more common, 814 00:51:54,440 --> 00:51:56,960 Speaker 1: and they're becoming more and more common because of things 815 00:51:57,040 --> 00:51:59,919 Speaker 1: that we did, because of changes that we wrought upon 816 00:52:00,080 --> 00:52:03,600 Speaker 1: the world. And if we don't fix those changes, you know, 817 00:52:03,920 --> 00:52:05,520 Speaker 1: you're not going to be able to You're not going 818 00:52:05,560 --> 00:52:07,600 Speaker 1: to be able to drive the risk of pandemic stant 819 00:52:07,719 --> 00:52:10,200 Speaker 1: zero by culling bats. If anything, you're just going to 820 00:52:10,239 --> 00:52:13,400 Speaker 1: make the ecosystems where those bats live much worse, and 821 00:52:13,440 --> 00:52:17,000 Speaker 1: you're gonna lose the whatever spectacular way of experiencing the 822 00:52:17,040 --> 00:52:20,200 Speaker 1: world those bats have. That you know, we look for 823 00:52:20,239 --> 00:52:23,759 Speaker 1: the problem in the wrong place, in that we try 824 00:52:23,760 --> 00:52:27,160 Speaker 1: and shove responsibility onto others, and we try and look 825 00:52:27,200 --> 00:52:33,279 Speaker 1: for quick, easy, sticking plaster fixes. The problem lies within us, 826 00:52:33,600 --> 00:52:37,680 Speaker 1: and the fixes need to be much bigger and much 827 00:52:37,719 --> 00:52:42,840 Speaker 1: more systemic. So I think, yeah, unless we actually extend 828 00:52:43,000 --> 00:52:45,640 Speaker 1: the full force of our empathy and ingenuity to the 829 00:52:45,640 --> 00:52:49,960 Speaker 1: rest of the natural world and understand that we are 830 00:52:50,120 --> 00:52:52,719 Speaker 1: a part of it and that we have had a 831 00:52:52,760 --> 00:52:56,880 Speaker 1: profound influence in shaping it, then you know, we're just 832 00:52:56,960 --> 00:53:02,920 Speaker 1: going to experience more of these problems that climate change phenomenon. 833 00:53:03,280 --> 00:53:06,359 Speaker 1: The link between climate change and pandemic risk. What that 834 00:53:06,440 --> 00:53:09,439 Speaker 1: tells us, what that should tell us is that many 835 00:53:09,520 --> 00:53:12,960 Speaker 1: of the big existential problems of our time, climate change, 836 00:53:13,200 --> 00:53:17,759 Speaker 1: the sixth extinction, mass extinction of wildlife, um uh, the 837 00:53:17,920 --> 00:53:21,480 Speaker 1: risk of future pandemics, they're all the same problem. They're 838 00:53:21,520 --> 00:53:26,080 Speaker 1: all intercate, they're all facets of the same interconnected megaproblem, 839 00:53:26,120 --> 00:53:29,080 Speaker 1: and the responsibility for fixing that problem is on us, 840 00:53:29,280 --> 00:53:35,080 Speaker 1: not on that. Yeah, I absolutely agree. I I you know, ultimately, 841 00:53:35,680 --> 00:53:38,319 Speaker 1: like I think is very evident in your book, this 842 00:53:38,480 --> 00:53:41,839 Speaker 1: idea that our human experience is the only important thing 843 00:53:42,640 --> 00:53:46,080 Speaker 1: is just very wrong. But in addition to that, I 844 00:53:46,120 --> 00:53:49,240 Speaker 1: think it is it's important to remember that we don't 845 00:53:49,280 --> 00:53:53,000 Speaker 1: are our sort of priorities, and the priorities of you know, 846 00:53:53,040 --> 00:53:56,399 Speaker 1: our our ecosystem are not necessarily in conflict. We can 847 00:53:56,440 --> 00:53:59,920 Speaker 1: actually have a lot of solutions to our own human issue, 848 00:54:00,000 --> 00:54:04,080 Speaker 1: our own problems by turning to our animal cousins and 849 00:54:04,640 --> 00:54:08,720 Speaker 1: trying to both help them and also understand them. Yeah, 850 00:54:08,760 --> 00:54:13,839 Speaker 1: I I totally agree with that. Yeah. And in the 851 00:54:13,960 --> 00:54:16,560 Speaker 1: in the last chapter of my book, I talk about 852 00:54:16,600 --> 00:54:20,120 Speaker 1: this problem of sensory pollution, this idea that we have 853 00:54:20,239 --> 00:54:24,440 Speaker 1: flooded the dark with light and the quiet with noise 854 00:54:25,239 --> 00:54:29,040 Speaker 1: in ways that really harm the creatures around us, and 855 00:54:29,120 --> 00:54:32,480 Speaker 1: that we we don't really understand or appreciate. I mean, 856 00:54:33,000 --> 00:54:37,680 Speaker 1: light um has positive connotations with us, and darkness is 857 00:54:37,760 --> 00:54:41,400 Speaker 1: negative ones. You know, we we crave more illumination not less, 858 00:54:42,040 --> 00:54:45,279 Speaker 1: but the amount of light pollution in the world is 859 00:54:45,800 --> 00:54:50,960 Speaker 1: phenomenal and causes a lot of harm to insects, to birds, 860 00:54:51,560 --> 00:54:56,200 Speaker 1: to sea turtles, to all kinds of creatures. And you know, 861 00:54:56,320 --> 00:54:59,520 Speaker 1: it hurts us too in ways that I think we 862 00:54:59,600 --> 00:55:04,640 Speaker 1: don't really appreciate. Like so many people have never really 863 00:55:04,719 --> 00:55:08,200 Speaker 1: seen the night sky, have never really appreciated like seen 864 00:55:08,520 --> 00:55:11,360 Speaker 1: what the stars look like, certainly in the northern atmosphere, 865 00:55:11,400 --> 00:55:13,320 Speaker 1: have never seen like have you ever seen the milky White. 866 00:55:13,800 --> 00:55:17,279 Speaker 1: I only saw it when I went to the Sequoias 867 00:55:17,600 --> 00:55:21,160 Speaker 1: and got really far away from the city and it 868 00:55:21,280 --> 00:55:25,719 Speaker 1: was I was I was so shocked that it existed. 869 00:55:25,760 --> 00:55:27,880 Speaker 1: I when I was imagining the Milky Way, I just 870 00:55:27,960 --> 00:55:31,440 Speaker 1: imagined maybe a few more stars. I had no idea 871 00:55:31,640 --> 00:55:36,520 Speaker 1: how vast and bright it was, and that that would 872 00:55:36,520 --> 00:55:40,359 Speaker 1: get drowned out by city lights. You know, even you know, 873 00:55:40,680 --> 00:55:43,399 Speaker 1: when I was a kid living in the suburbs, thinking like, well, 874 00:55:43,440 --> 00:55:45,879 Speaker 1: it's not that right out, Why wouldn't I be able 875 00:55:45,880 --> 00:55:49,560 Speaker 1: to see it? It is shocking what you are missing 876 00:55:49,600 --> 00:55:53,239 Speaker 1: in the night sky. It's it's really shocking. And like 877 00:55:53,360 --> 00:55:57,319 Speaker 1: that site is just like transcendentally beautiful, Like I think 878 00:55:57,360 --> 00:55:59,839 Speaker 1: the first time you see it, because most of us 879 00:55:59,840 --> 00:56:03,759 Speaker 1: have never seen it before, it's it's just like a 880 00:56:03,960 --> 00:56:09,360 Speaker 1: kingly beautiful to behold. But and there's no reason why 881 00:56:09,400 --> 00:56:11,880 Speaker 1: we shouldn't be able to see it, Like it's clearly 882 00:56:11,960 --> 00:56:17,040 Speaker 1: visible in the northern hemisphere. It's just that the light 883 00:56:17,120 --> 00:56:20,160 Speaker 1: from all of these distant stars from our own galaxy 884 00:56:20,280 --> 00:56:24,239 Speaker 1: travels you know, countless light years, reaches Earth and then 885 00:56:24,280 --> 00:56:27,440 Speaker 1: gets washed out by the glow of our own buildings. 886 00:56:27,719 --> 00:56:32,279 Speaker 1: And I think that's I think that's profoundly sad. You know, 887 00:56:32,280 --> 00:56:35,520 Speaker 1: we affect our own health, our our own biological clocks 888 00:56:35,560 --> 00:56:38,359 Speaker 1: by the lights we produce at night. And I think 889 00:56:38,400 --> 00:56:42,759 Speaker 1: that the thing about century pollution that's really important is that, 890 00:56:43,520 --> 00:56:45,680 Speaker 1: unlike a lot of the other things that we're doing 891 00:56:45,719 --> 00:56:49,480 Speaker 1: to the world, and unlike greenhouse gas emissions and like 892 00:56:49,520 --> 00:56:55,239 Speaker 1: plastic pollution, environmental toxins, this is easy to fix. Like, 893 00:56:56,040 --> 00:56:58,320 Speaker 1: you know, light pollution goes away when you turn the 894 00:56:58,400 --> 00:57:00,840 Speaker 1: lights off. It is a it is literally a switch. 895 00:57:01,640 --> 00:57:04,560 Speaker 1: We just have to care enough to want to fix 896 00:57:04,640 --> 00:57:08,320 Speaker 1: the problem. Yeah, And I think there are other types 897 00:57:08,440 --> 00:57:12,320 Speaker 1: of sort of sensory pollution that we're just like learning about, 898 00:57:12,440 --> 00:57:17,440 Speaker 1: like the idea that animals that have a wider range 899 00:57:17,480 --> 00:57:20,480 Speaker 1: of visual perception than we do can see sort of 900 00:57:20,480 --> 00:57:24,880 Speaker 1: a halo coming off of of power lines and that 901 00:57:24,960 --> 00:57:31,600 Speaker 1: to them it's this intimidating glowing thing, not you know where. 902 00:57:31,680 --> 00:57:33,640 Speaker 1: To us, you know, we may only kind of perceive 903 00:57:33,680 --> 00:57:37,000 Speaker 1: a slight buzzing coming from it. Or like with birds, 904 00:57:37,120 --> 00:57:41,280 Speaker 1: like whose mating cycles are entirely dependent on them being 905 00:57:41,280 --> 00:57:44,720 Speaker 1: able to hear each other. Uh, that's like the way 906 00:57:44,760 --> 00:57:47,560 Speaker 1: that they can locate each other for mating, and how 907 00:57:47,640 --> 00:57:52,439 Speaker 1: that so negatively impacts their their breeding cycles when there's 908 00:57:52,480 --> 00:57:56,360 Speaker 1: too much noise pollution. If we don't if we don't 909 00:57:56,360 --> 00:58:01,040 Speaker 1: even really understand what their sensory world is, how can 910 00:58:01,080 --> 00:58:05,680 Speaker 1: we have the empathy to know even what to change? 911 00:58:05,720 --> 00:58:07,720 Speaker 1: And I think, I mean for me, that is what 912 00:58:07,880 --> 00:58:12,520 Speaker 1: is so important about books like yours and learning about 913 00:58:12,560 --> 00:58:17,440 Speaker 1: these animal internal experience because it is so vital in 914 00:58:18,120 --> 00:58:21,840 Speaker 1: understanding our world and how to you know, basically prevent 915 00:58:21,880 --> 00:58:27,080 Speaker 1: our world from becoming dull and uh, you know, bereft 916 00:58:27,280 --> 00:58:32,440 Speaker 1: of this diversity of experience. Yeah, and you know, we 917 00:58:32,440 --> 00:58:35,400 Speaker 1: we we can choose something different, like at the at 918 00:58:35,440 --> 00:58:39,080 Speaker 1: the start of the COVID pandemic, when when when a 919 00:58:39,120 --> 00:58:42,120 Speaker 1: lot of people were, you know, staying at home, that 920 00:58:42,360 --> 00:58:45,320 Speaker 1: there was there was a lot of talk of there 921 00:58:45,360 --> 00:58:47,400 Speaker 1: were a lot of cases of people going, oh, they're 922 00:58:47,440 --> 00:58:50,800 Speaker 1: just more birds, right, like, loads of people said that. 923 00:58:50,880 --> 00:58:53,200 Speaker 1: And it's not that there were just more birds, it's 924 00:58:53,240 --> 00:58:56,520 Speaker 1: just that you can hear them now because everyone's being 925 00:58:56,840 --> 00:59:00,400 Speaker 1: a lot quieter. And what what happens when you're quietis 926 00:59:00,640 --> 00:59:03,000 Speaker 1: is not just that you start picking up on sounds 927 00:59:03,040 --> 00:59:05,479 Speaker 1: that might otherwise be drowned out, but you can hear 928 00:59:05,560 --> 00:59:10,000 Speaker 1: over much longer distances. You know, even just a few 929 00:59:10,080 --> 00:59:15,480 Speaker 1: decibels less noise, you can double the radius over which 930 00:59:15,520 --> 00:59:22,120 Speaker 1: you're hearing. And so sensory pollution is the pollution of disconnection. 931 00:59:22,800 --> 00:59:26,280 Speaker 1: It disconnects us from the sounds of nature around us 932 00:59:26,280 --> 00:59:30,120 Speaker 1: by shrinking our own sensory bubble. It disconnects us from 933 00:59:30,120 --> 00:59:33,000 Speaker 1: the cosmos by drowning out the lights of distant stars. 934 00:59:33,600 --> 00:59:37,840 Speaker 1: And you know, it's it's sort of ironic that at 935 00:59:37,880 --> 00:59:40,400 Speaker 1: this moment, at that moment in time, when people felt 936 00:59:40,440 --> 00:59:45,760 Speaker 1: isolated in some ways, they actually were more connected to 937 00:59:45,800 --> 00:59:49,680 Speaker 1: the world around them. M And I think, like, you know, 938 00:59:49,800 --> 00:59:51,960 Speaker 1: we should we should aim for that. I mean, not 939 00:59:52,040 --> 00:59:54,840 Speaker 1: like the horrible, not saying we should name for like 940 00:59:55,080 --> 00:59:57,520 Speaker 1: lockdowns and say at home orders, we should aim for 941 00:59:58,040 --> 01:00:02,040 Speaker 1: being more connected through the all dorandous by expanding the 942 01:00:02,720 --> 01:00:06,640 Speaker 1: reach of our own senses, um and by going on 943 01:00:06,720 --> 01:00:11,840 Speaker 1: these mental adventures and thinking about the senses of other animals. Yeah, 944 01:00:11,880 --> 01:00:14,680 Speaker 1: I mean, circling back to what we talked about with 945 01:00:14,760 --> 01:00:19,240 Speaker 1: dogs perception. I enjoy my walks with Cookie a lot 946 01:00:19,280 --> 01:00:23,600 Speaker 1: more after reading the book and really thinking about how 947 01:00:23,720 --> 01:00:26,840 Speaker 1: much fun she's having smelling these things. And I just 948 01:00:26,960 --> 01:00:31,040 Speaker 1: watch her and enjoy seeing her reaction to things, or 949 01:00:31,080 --> 01:00:34,280 Speaker 1: like I'll leave hide little treats around the house and 950 01:00:34,320 --> 01:00:37,520 Speaker 1: watch her like sniff, I see she catches the scent 951 01:00:37,640 --> 01:00:40,840 Speaker 1: and she tries to find it, and it's you know, 952 01:00:40,880 --> 01:00:43,720 Speaker 1: in that very simple, limited way. It's brought me so 953 01:00:43,840 --> 01:00:46,960 Speaker 1: much more joy. And I think that once we if 954 01:00:46,960 --> 01:00:50,480 Speaker 1: we extend that past just the cute animals like dogs 955 01:00:50,600 --> 01:00:54,480 Speaker 1: into you know, all sorts of animals out there, even 956 01:00:54,520 --> 01:00:58,200 Speaker 1: the you know, the maybe less beautiful ones like snakes 957 01:00:58,200 --> 01:01:01,920 Speaker 1: and spiders, bats, all though personally I think that's are 958 01:01:02,160 --> 01:01:06,680 Speaker 1: very very cute, you know, really kind of getting feeling 959 01:01:06,840 --> 01:01:13,160 Speaker 1: that excitement about watching them experience the world and understanding. Hey, 960 01:01:13,160 --> 01:01:16,200 Speaker 1: they have that internal experience. It's like when you're a 961 01:01:16,240 --> 01:01:19,920 Speaker 1: really young kid and you finally come to the realization, 962 01:01:20,040 --> 01:01:22,720 Speaker 1: oh wait, there are a ton of people on Earth 963 01:01:22,760 --> 01:01:25,760 Speaker 1: and they each have their own internal experience and that 964 01:01:26,200 --> 01:01:29,880 Speaker 1: immensity of understanding. Hey, like, I am not the only 965 01:01:29,920 --> 01:01:34,080 Speaker 1: conscious human and there's so many other conscious humans. Uh. 966 01:01:34,160 --> 01:01:37,680 Speaker 1: And then like extending that realization to animals I think 967 01:01:37,840 --> 01:01:43,200 Speaker 1: is a very profound and enriching experience. Yeah, me too, 968 01:01:43,480 --> 01:01:46,720 Speaker 1: I I could. I couldn't agree more well ed, Thank 969 01:01:46,760 --> 01:01:50,280 Speaker 1: you so much for joining me today. This was wonderful. 970 01:01:50,440 --> 01:01:54,919 Speaker 1: I love your book. I am eternally grateful for your 971 01:01:55,160 --> 01:01:58,800 Speaker 1: articles as well, because without them, uh, this podcast would 972 01:01:58,800 --> 01:02:03,480 Speaker 1: probably be a lot less interesting. So where can when? Where? 973 01:02:03,480 --> 01:02:05,680 Speaker 1: And when can people get a copy of your book? 974 01:02:07,160 --> 01:02:11,440 Speaker 1: So An Immense World is out on June twenty one 975 01:02:11,840 --> 01:02:14,640 Speaker 1: in all the places you get books from, preferably your 976 01:02:14,720 --> 01:02:17,480 Speaker 1: local bookstore, but anyway you want to grab a copy, 977 01:02:17,880 --> 01:02:20,520 Speaker 1: please do. You can get the audiobook as well, which 978 01:02:20,560 --> 01:02:24,480 Speaker 1: is read by me um. So yeah, it should be 979 01:02:24,520 --> 01:02:27,520 Speaker 1: out pretty soon. I hope you all check it out, 980 01:02:27,640 --> 01:02:30,520 Speaker 1: and I hope everyone enjoys it. I hope it brings 981 01:02:30,840 --> 01:02:33,400 Speaker 1: a bit of joy to people's lives at a moment 982 01:02:33,480 --> 01:02:37,000 Speaker 1: when I think we could all use more infusions of joy. Well, 983 01:02:37,040 --> 01:02:40,240 Speaker 1: I can attest to that I really enjoyed it. Before 984 01:02:40,280 --> 01:02:43,760 Speaker 1: we go, Let's play guest who squawk? In the Mystery 985 01:02:43,800 --> 01:02:47,600 Speaker 1: Animal Sound game. Every week I play a Mystery animal 986 01:02:47,680 --> 01:02:50,320 Speaker 1: sound in you the listener guests who is making that 987 01:02:50,520 --> 01:02:56,280 Speaker 1: sound could be any animal on Earth. So the hint 988 01:02:56,360 --> 01:03:00,320 Speaker 1: for last week's Mr Animal sound was this the eachured 989 01:03:00,360 --> 01:03:02,920 Speaker 1: in the Silence of the Lambs. This fellow is not 990 01:03:03,080 --> 01:03:17,000 Speaker 1: so silent, So congratulations to Joey Pete, Kegan H and 991 01:03:17,040 --> 01:03:22,080 Speaker 1: Remy H who were the fastest guessers for the Death's 992 01:03:22,120 --> 01:03:26,600 Speaker 1: Head moth. So the Death's Head Moth was featured on 993 01:03:26,640 --> 01:03:30,160 Speaker 1: the poster for Silence of the Lambs. They have what 994 01:03:30,360 --> 01:03:35,000 Speaker 1: appears to be a human skull marking their thorax, so 995 01:03:35,080 --> 01:03:39,120 Speaker 1: to make that chirping sound, they actually inhale and exhale air, 996 01:03:39,440 --> 01:03:43,080 Speaker 1: forcing it through their mouth tube, which was thought to 997 01:03:43,160 --> 01:03:48,240 Speaker 1: originally be used to like slurp up sugary syrup um, 998 01:03:48,280 --> 01:03:51,000 Speaker 1: but it is now used to make sound and it 999 01:03:51,040 --> 01:03:55,040 Speaker 1: can vibrate like an accordion, and this is a way 1000 01:03:55,080 --> 01:03:59,960 Speaker 1: of scaring away predators, so startling them and hopefully scaring 1001 01:04:00,040 --> 01:04:03,920 Speaker 1: them away. And due to the skull like marking and 1002 01:04:04,040 --> 01:04:08,640 Speaker 1: shrill squeaks, it has become a figure in many superstitions. 1003 01:04:09,600 --> 01:04:13,240 Speaker 1: So onto this week's Mr Animal Sound. Here's your hint. 1004 01:04:14,000 --> 01:04:17,959 Speaker 1: It has a prehensile tale, a hunger for eucalyptus and 1005 01:04:18,240 --> 01:04:27,360 Speaker 1: for fresh meat. If you think you know who's squawking, 1006 01:04:27,520 --> 01:04:29,880 Speaker 1: you can write to me at Creature Feature Pod at 1007 01:04:29,920 --> 01:04:33,280 Speaker 1: gmail dot com, also on Twitter at Creature feet Pod. 1008 01:04:33,880 --> 01:04:36,240 Speaker 1: That's f e a T not at the et that 1009 01:04:36,400 --> 01:04:39,640 Speaker 1: is something very different And if you leave a rating 1010 01:04:39,800 --> 01:04:42,560 Speaker 1: or review, I would be ever so grateful. I read 1011 01:04:42,600 --> 01:04:44,880 Speaker 1: all the reviews and it means so much to me. 1012 01:04:45,360 --> 01:04:48,040 Speaker 1: And thanks to the Space Classics for their super awesome 1013 01:04:48,080 --> 01:04:51,800 Speaker 1: song Exo Luina. Creature features a production of I Heart Radio. 1014 01:04:51,920 --> 01:04:55,040 Speaker 1: For more podcasts like the one you just heard, visit 1015 01:04:55,080 --> 01:04:57,480 Speaker 1: the I Heart Radio app ALP podcast or Hey guess what? 1016 01:04:58,040 --> 01:05:00,080 Speaker 1: Where have you listen to your favorite shows? I do 1017 01:05:00,160 --> 01:05:02,360 Speaker 1: not judge you. See you next Wednesday.