Speaker 1: Welcome back to a numbers game with Ryan Gerdoski. A
Speaker 1: very exciting time of the year. Elections are starting now
Speaker 1: for the twenty twenty five cycle, twenty twenty six cycle
Speaker 1: all across the world, which always excites me and I'm
Speaker 1: sure excited listeners. Ariy Sabato he is the director of
Speaker 1: the Center for Politics at the University of Virginia. He's
Speaker 1: very well respected on his political analysis, though I think
Speaker 1: he's very overblown. I don't respect him that much, but
Speaker 1: I think he's worth at least putting a grain of
Speaker 1: salt listening to. It's not because he blocked me on
Speaker 1: Twitter because I called him out for his big bag
Speaker 1: of bullship, but that's besides the point. It's worth just
Speaker 1: listening to and just seeing what he says. But he's
Speaker 1: very much a mainstream media opinion person anyway. He has
Speaker 1: first predictions for the first for the twenty twenty five
Speaker 1: twenty twenty six governor's elections. Wasn't that many surprises. He
Speaker 1: predicted Democrats have the advantage in flipping the governorship of
Speaker 1: Virginia and that Republicans can take the governor's mansion in Kansas.
Speaker 1: He said, Arizona and Michigan are the two most competitive states.
Speaker 1: They're both occupied by Democrats. Two very quick things, and
Speaker 1: the only quick things that I really think are worth
Speaker 1: pointing out and putting an emphasis on. He put the
Speaker 1: New Jersey governor's race as lean Democrat, which means it's
Speaker 1: slightly advantage charge Democrats, but Republicans can come back, which
Speaker 1: does a lot given that they have an eight hundred
Speaker 1: thousand voter advantage registered voter advantage Democrats do Republicans in
Speaker 1: the state. And then he put New York not as
Speaker 1: a solid Democrat state, which it typically is, but as
Speaker 1: a likely Democrat state. And what does that mean is
Speaker 1: that Larry is looking at the tea leaves of the
Speaker 1: twenty twenty four election and the great realignment that happen
Speaker 1: and saying, yeah, there's these deep blue states, especially for
Speaker 1: governor's elections, which are not as hard line and rigid,
Speaker 1: and how they vote compared to the presidential election, there
Speaker 1: could be some surprises. And if he's saying that, then
Speaker 1: the mainstream media will probably also pick up on that,
Speaker 1: because he using mouthpiece for what they all institutionally believe.
Speaker 1: Kind of interesting worth pointing out. Secondly, across the pond,
Speaker 1: there was the election for local governments, for mayoral elections
Speaker 1: and by elections. That's basically the British version of special elections,
Speaker 1: what they call a special election. There's no real difference
Speaker 1: besides called by election anyway. They have the local elections,
Speaker 1: mayoral elections and the by election, and the Reform Party,
Speaker 1: the Form UK Party led by Nigel Faraj's a populist
Speaker 1: conservative party, swept across the country and they even picked
Speaker 1: up one of the most labor pro labor that's the
Speaker 1: center left party in the UK, most pro labor seats
Speaker 1: in the parliament. In the by election speaks volumes to
Speaker 1: what's going on in that country and the discomfort and
Speaker 1: the growth of the national populist movement which has not
Speaker 1: seeded despite Trump being elected. You will always sear people
Speaker 1: in the media get a guest on from Canada who
Speaker 1: made the same claim, which is just not true. The
Speaker 1: national populist movement is growing and it's continuing growing across
Speaker 1: the world, despite how unpopular our present may be in
Speaker 1: some of these places. We'll see how Farage changes the
Speaker 1: consensus of that country and what goes on in the future.
Speaker 1: But it was a very good night for Nigel Farage
Speaker 1: on Thursday night Friday morning, depending on what time is
Speaker 1: on your own. Lastly, and this is what this episode's about.
Speaker 1: I want to talk about that another election happening in
Speaker 1: the very short term, but very few people are already voting.
Speaker 1: This election, and that is the election for the next Pope. Now,
Speaker 1: as everyone knows, Pope Francis went to his eternal rest
Speaker 1: on May twenty first, and the cardinals are headed to
Speaker 1: Rome on May seventh to have a conclave to decide
Speaker 1: the next Pope. The man who receives two thirds majority
Speaker 1: will be the next head of the Roman Catholic Church,
Speaker 1: the largest church in the world, with one point four
Speaker 1: billion adherents to the faith. This is a practice, the
Speaker 1: conclave that started in the thirteenth century. Now this election
Speaker 1: will decide not just the next Pope, but the future
Speaker 1: of the Catholic Church. It's no secret that Pope, you know, Francis,
Speaker 1: was much more progressive than his predecessor, Probe Benedict. He
Speaker 1: envisioned Pope Frances envision a larger Catholic Church that it
Speaker 1: welcomes tons of people, even those who didn't have believe
Speaker 1: in the doctrine. That they had opened conflicts with the
Speaker 1: Catholic Church. He even said atheists go to heaven. Benedict,
Speaker 1: on the other hand, believed that the Catholic Church should
Speaker 1: become more orthodox, even if it means shrinking in size,
Speaker 1: and that we could. You know, it's almost how the
Speaker 1: monks treated the Catholic Church during the Dark Ages, where
Speaker 1: they would close themselves into their monasteries, and then through
Speaker 1: the century of the Dark Age, come out and save
Speaker 1: Europe and save European tradition and then reignite the church.
Speaker 1: There is a lot of conflict going on within the
Speaker 1: Catholic Church because most younger Catholics, especially in America, most
Speaker 1: younger Catholic priests are very conservative. They are much more
Speaker 1: in line with Benedict's vision of the church in some respects,
Speaker 1: and so are a large number of Catholic priests coming
Speaker 1: out of Africa. The cardinals who are older, many are
Speaker 1: baby boomers or Silent generation. They are much more progressive
Speaker 1: than the average twenty year olds coming into the church
Speaker 1: and churchly life, and that is a conflict over the
Speaker 1: future of the Church of what vision represents it. Eighty
Speaker 1: percent of the cardinal's voting were appointed by Francis. That
Speaker 1: will play a big part in this. Some of the
Speaker 1: potential successors include Cardinal Peter Urdo from Hungary. He's very
Speaker 1: critical of mass immigration, He's very conservative. He's probably the
Speaker 1: most likely conservative who has a real chance becoming the
Speaker 1: next Pope. Cardinal of f Dolan m. Bungo from the
Speaker 1: Dominican Republic in the Congo, not the Medican Republic, the
Speaker 1: Democratic Proba of the Congo. Everyone who listens to this
Speaker 1: podcast knows I can never pronounce a name, so forgive
Speaker 1: me as usual. Cardinal Mario Gretch from Malta, Cardinal Pietro
Speaker 1: Parolin he's the Vatican Secretary of State, and Cardinals Luis
Speaker 1: Tangelli from the Philippines. Those are who the media have
Speaker 1: said are the most likely contenders. Now, of course, someone
Speaker 1: else can do it, can be appointed pope. There is
Speaker 1: not a rule they have to be a current cardinal,
Speaker 1: though it is very very likely they will be, but
Speaker 1: we'll wait and see. The new Pope does have big
Speaker 1: shoes to fill, as Francis was beloved by the media,
Speaker 1: by many Western Catholics and many and he was scorned
Speaker 1: by many conservative members of the faith. You know, being
Speaker 1: a practicing Catholic myself, I have a lot of problems
Speaker 1: with some things that Francis did as pope. I think
Speaker 1: he was very, very focused on positive news coverage while
Speaker 1: ignoring issues that were deeply affecting the church, because he
Speaker 1: cared a lot about being in Western media. I remember
Speaker 1: a couple of years ago I had a friend who
Speaker 1: worked for the church and work for the Vatican, and
Speaker 1: they were having the vote to legalize abortion in Ireland
Speaker 1: and I messaged him and I said, why isn't frances
Speaker 1: going to Ireland to make a speech and defend the
Speaker 1: right to life? And the responded with will he be
Speaker 1: laughed out of the country and I and I said, well,
Speaker 1: you know, Pope Peter died on a cross upside down
Speaker 1: for Christ. You know, tell me about being afraid of
Speaker 1: being laughed at. You know you want to be laughed at.
Speaker 1: Go become a conservative on CNN. Trust me, that's a
Speaker 1: hard job. They're there, you know, take a bold stance.
Speaker 1: And I thought that a lot of times Francis refused
Speaker 1: to do that, and it says, you know a lot
Speaker 1: of I think about him. You're not brave from going
Speaker 1: to or going to Africa to tell a climate change
Speaker 1: or lecturing Hungarians on migrant rights. But I'm not going
Speaker 1: to pretend that I know all the pieces moving pieces
Speaker 1: when it comes to the church or who could be
Speaker 1: the next pope. So I have two very very intelligent
Speaker 1: guests who are coming in to delve into the legacy
Speaker 1: of France's and insights on who the next possible pope
Speaker 1: will be. So stay tuned for that. Judrusso is the
Speaker 1: editor at the American Conservative magazine. He's actually my editor
Speaker 1: when I write there. It's a fantastic publication that I
Speaker 1: highly recommend listeners check out. Emily Zanati is an independent
Speaker 1: writer who I followed for a very long time. She's
Speaker 1: super smart about all these all papal issues and a
Speaker 1: host of others. You can read her brilliant substack growing
Speaker 1: olives in Nashville on Emilyzanati dot substack dot com. Thank
Speaker 1: you both for being here.
Speaker 2: Thanks for having us, Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1: The first question, I'll direct it towards Emily. What is
Speaker 1: Pope Francis's legacy?
Speaker 3: I think a lot of his legacy is ultimately a
Speaker 3: bit of confusion. When it comes down to Pope Francis.
Speaker 3: I think there is a certain side of him that
Speaker 3: is very accessible it's quite liberal in sort of a
Speaker 3: more meticense.
Speaker 4: But I think ultimately towards the end, there were a
Speaker 4: lot of confusing messages and.
Speaker 3: It left a lot of Catholics kind of not quite
Speaker 3: sure where they were.
Speaker 4: It's got a lot of warm and fuzzy feelings.
Speaker 3: But not as many, not as much dogmatic certainty about Catholicism.
Speaker 4: So I think.
Speaker 3: Ultimately his legacy is going to be this sort of
Speaker 3: long term confusion.
Speaker 1: Ultimately, do you think that having so much positive coverage
Speaker 1: was worth the drawbacks?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 3: I think the most interesting little snippet I've ever seen
Speaker 3: of him was he was speaking about how if he
Speaker 3: could do one miracle, he would heal all the children.
Speaker 4: Right. He was in his office and he's talking about
Speaker 4: how he would feel all the children.
Speaker 3: And on the wall behind him in his personal quarters
Speaker 3: is a piece of art by a man named Marco Rupnik,
Speaker 3: who was excommunicated initially for abuse of nuns, and I
Speaker 3: mean not just physical abuse but also personal abuse, spiritual abuse,
Speaker 3: abuse of and and he was restored to the priesthood
Speaker 3: under Francis. So it's this ultimate kind of see moron
Speaker 3: of a papacy. Right, I love being wonderful to children,
Speaker 3: but also when it comes to abuse victims, I'm not
Speaker 3: listening to them. So I think that's kind of the
Speaker 3: Francis papacy in a nutshell.
Speaker 1: What do you think of the idea that he was
Speaker 1: focused on media over other things.
Speaker 2: I think that there's certainly the case, and I think
Speaker 2: that you see this and some of the peculiarities of
Speaker 2: his approach to the American Church specifically, he spent a
Speaker 2: lot of time for fixating on traditionalists and whether traditionalists,
Speaker 2: you know, people who prefer the traditional Latin Mass have
Speaker 2: some sort of scheme going on against him. There are
Speaker 2: not actually that many Latin masscoers, but they are disproportionately
Speaker 2: represented in American Catholic media, especially online, and so he
Speaker 2: spent an awful lot of time and a lot of
Speaker 2: institutional cloud micromanaging the way that these people go to
Speaker 2: mass and the conditions under which they can sort of
Speaker 2: practice the type of mass that they want in a
Speaker 2: way that was unprecedented even in the immediate post conciliary era.
Speaker 1: What you was saying is correct, there's a million. I
Speaker 1: think the essens are there are one million Latin maskowers
Speaker 1: in the world. I mean of one point four billion Catholics,
Speaker 1: there's one million in the whole world. Whistend. The style
Speaker 1: of masks and poet France has spent a lot, a lot,
Speaker 1: a lot of time saying on which when they can go,
Speaker 1: who could perform it where it could be an enormous
Speaker 1: obsession for such a minority of Catholics. Anyway, Sorry, did
Speaker 1: you go ahead? I just want to explain for the
Speaker 1: non Catholics and.
Speaker 2: That yeah, no, no, I appreciate that, And that's something
Speaker 2: worth keeping in mind here as we sort of go
Speaker 2: down the rabbit hole. So I think that, you know,
Speaker 2: a lot has been made of the fact that Francis
Speaker 2: really did chase headlines, but I think that too little
Speaker 2: has been made of the fact that he also really
Speaker 2: read them. He was in some ways an extremely online pope,
Speaker 2: the way that you know, a certain president is extremely
Speaker 2: on Twitter. And that was weird.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 2: One of the basic problems facing the modern papacy, especially
Speaker 2: from about nineteen forty on, is the problem of mass media,
Speaker 2: which allows for a sort of central eye control within
Speaker 2: the church that was previously undreamt of. You know what
Speaker 2: doesn't mean when the pope can you know, get into
Speaker 2: headlines or speak directly through radio. This is something that
Speaker 2: the church, you know, administratively, has had a hard time
Speaker 2: sort of figuring out. And I think that Francis shows
Speaker 2: the sort of terminus of a certain line of development,
Speaker 2: which is this is really cool. We can sort of
Speaker 2: sweep aside all of the other power bases and interests
Speaker 2: in the church, and I can just throw grenades into
Speaker 2: people's lives directly by talking to the press or you know,
Speaker 2: having people live stream me.
Speaker 1: And then famously would say that when I have the
Speaker 1: press misinterpret him, he doesn't speak English, so that's why
Speaker 1: it's really their fault.
Speaker 2: Great, and this ambiguity is ambiguity is where personal power thrives.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 2: The fact that he kept things ambiguous and confused meant
Speaker 2: that he was that he was the ultimate sort of
Speaker 2: judge or arbiter of what was actually going on personally.
Speaker 4: So I think this was a massive centralization of power.
Speaker 3: We entered an era where we talked about clericalism quite
Speaker 3: a bit. That Poe Francis was the end of the
Speaker 3: clerical era, which means that you know, you're giving all
Speaker 3: of the power up to the priestly class, or the
Speaker 3: bishops or the administration and instead essentially Poe Francis took
Speaker 3: that power, put it back into the Vatican and often
Speaker 3: dictated from on high what should have been.
Speaker 4: A pastoral idea. So like the Latin Mass.
Speaker 3: You know, if if your if your flock would prefer
Speaker 3: a more traditionalized mass, then.
Speaker 4: That should be your call.
Speaker 3: Or if you would like a personal pre litter, then
Speaker 3: that should be your call. But Francis basically pulled that
Speaker 3: ou all back into that I can both administratively and
Speaker 3: personally by doing these, you know, speaking directly often to
Speaker 3: the media and circumventing what would have been typical channels
Speaker 3: for the last you know, fifteen hundred to two thousand years.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 1: So the thing about the thing about it is very
Speaker 1: interesting because Pope Benedict, which is Poe Francis, his predecessor,
Speaker 1: spoke about a vision of a church that was smaller
Speaker 1: in size, but more more I guess doctrinally, you know, true, yeah,
Speaker 1: more observe it, more religious, more more adherent to the doctrine.
Speaker 1: But a smaller church, a smaller than a one point
Speaker 1: four billion dollar church. Pote france Is, on the other hand,
Speaker 1: sat there and said, no atheists go to heaven, and
Speaker 1: let's they did. He did a lot of like touch
Speaker 1: and go outreach to gay communities. He did a lot
Speaker 1: of He did a lot of outreach towards just people
Speaker 1: who made it as easy as possible. You know, there
Speaker 1: used to be a thing like even a poach on
Speaker 1: Paul the Second where the Easter, the Eastern Christmas Catholics
Speaker 1: and the cafeteria Catholics who pick and choose which part
Speaker 1: of the religion they want to believe in, which is
Speaker 1: you know, probably most Catholics, but though Pope John Paul
Speaker 1: the second major overage to them. Francis was like, let's
Speaker 1: go past the cafeteria and see if anyone's in the gym,
Speaker 1: and they'll be included in it too. The next pope
Speaker 1: has a big choice in this in the idea of
Speaker 1: what kind of church is he going to reform? And
Speaker 1: I want to go over the idea of who's going
Speaker 1: to replace him? But before I do, what would be
Speaker 1: I mean, is there anyone left with a serious chance
Speaker 1: who has the vision that Benedict died of a smaller,
Speaker 1: more I guess, devout church than one that Francis had. Emily,
Speaker 1: why don't you go first, then we'll go to June.
Speaker 3: There are certainly cardinals in the church who have more
Speaker 3: of a Benedict style approach.
Speaker 4: I think Burke and Sarah.
Speaker 3: Whether they have a chance of becoming pope is another
Speaker 3: matter altogether. They're certainly at the very edge of voting.
Speaker 3: Both are seventy eight seventy nine, and there are certainly
Speaker 3: other more conservative style cardinals who have the opportunity.
Speaker 1: We have.
Speaker 4: Also, we have to remember that even while.
Speaker 3: Francis was trying to reform everything, these reforms never really happened.
Speaker 4: On his watch.
Speaker 3: The things that they wanted quite badly, the synod and senidality,
Speaker 3: and the idea of getting married priests and the amazon
Speaker 3: and women deacons, they fell flat because ultimately the administration
Speaker 3: also didn't want them. We have a younger, more conservative church,
Speaker 3: and that's just the reality that the Conclave and many
Speaker 3: of these cardinals who are you know, of advanced age,
Speaker 3: are going.
Speaker 4: To have to reckon with in the next couple of years.
Speaker 3: We've seen all of these studies that say the priests
Speaker 3: that are coming into the church now are more conservative,
Speaker 3: they're more traditional, even if they're open to Nova's order,
Speaker 3: even if they're open to, you know, sort of a
Speaker 3: more liberal approach to some of the dogma. They are
Speaker 3: not strayed from that very much.
Speaker 4: And so any pope.
Speaker 3: That comes into this situation is going to have to
Speaker 3: wrangle with them. And when you talk about the Latin
Speaker 3: mask and tradition, Ando's custotis and putting the feet down
Speaker 3: on the Latin mask, and to put down on the
Speaker 3: Latin mask, it really grew the Latin mask more than
Speaker 3: it did anything else.
Speaker 4: It's part of energize is that same group.
Speaker 1: It was a effect for sure.
Speaker 3: It was a strike sand effect of Barber streisand.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so yeah, but I think Emily Emily is bringing
Speaker 1: up an important point that I mentioned earlier in the taping,
Speaker 1: is is that there is, like the Canadian elections, for
Speaker 1: those who paid attention, there is a generational divide between
Speaker 1: baby boomers and Silent generation. More than baby boomers with
Speaker 1: Silent generation, cardinals and baby generations who are more liberal,
Speaker 1: they are more in the Frances Vane younger priests. Anyone
Speaker 1: signing up, especially from a Western country, to be a
Speaker 1: priests at this point in this day and age, is
Speaker 1: somebody who is very orthodox or pretty orthodox. So that
Speaker 1: generational divide between the people leading the church and those
Speaker 1: coming up through the ranks is seismic. It's very large. So, Jude,
Speaker 1: what do you think about that?
Speaker 2: Well, So, I think that there are two things worth
Speaker 2: talking about here. The first one is being careful to
Speaker 2: not project the conditions of the American Church on the
Speaker 2: rest of the rest of the world. The priesthood is
Speaker 2: certainly growing more conservative and younger, and the church generally
Speaker 2: more conservative than you in the United States, but this
Speaker 2: does not necessarily obtain in like Latin America, where young
Speaker 2: people are increasingly becoming Protestant, where you know, you have
Speaker 2: trouble getting anybody into the priesthood, but the people that
Speaker 2: you do have coming into the priesthood are sort of
Speaker 2: a weird mix because of the conditions that obtain in
Speaker 2: Latin America. So something that Americans, I think tend not
Speaker 2: to have an appreciation of is just how healthy, robust,
Speaker 2: and relatively wealthy the American Church is. How we are
Speaker 2: in much better condition than the Europeans or the South Americans.
Speaker 1: The African church is really where the population of priests
Speaker 1: is growing.
Speaker 2: Yes, well, and that's an interesting condition in Europe that
Speaker 2: we'll have to see how it plays out over the
Speaker 2: next you know, however, many years. But a lot of
Speaker 2: the priests who actually do perish work in France are
Speaker 2: from Africa. They're coming in usually from French speaking portions
Speaker 2: of Africa. And basically the way that it works is
Speaker 2: it's it's like a period of indentured servitude. You know,
Speaker 2: they do their seminary work in France and then they
Speaker 2: have to work on the ground for ten years to
Speaker 2: pay off their seminary.
Speaker 1: That's a great prison term. It's either ten years in
Speaker 1: France or you know, a hard labor whatever comes first.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So I think that, you know, it's very easy
Speaker 2: because the American Church is wealthy, powerful, relatively robust, relatively large,
Speaker 2: it's sort of easy to project the way we see
Speaker 2: things onto the way they see things at Rome. But
Speaker 2: despite the composition of the current you know, weirdness of
Speaker 2: how the current set of cardinals is composed, which I
Speaker 2: think will probably talk about in the moment, they are
Speaker 2: still primarily European, like the plurality is still from Catholic Europe.
Speaker 1: They are, and Italy has the single largest country representation.
Speaker 5: Yes, as not intended, but as three Italians, three Italians
Speaker 5: talk about global representation, that's well, and this.
Speaker 2: Is actually this is actually a very good segue to
Speaker 2: talk about the other thing that I think is worth
Speaker 2: keeping in mind, which people who don't you know, doggedly
Speaker 2: follow Vatican politics, which is say, like normal healthy, well
Speaker 2: adjusted people don't necessarily account for, which is that this
Speaker 2: is a political process, and as in any political process,
Speaker 2: what dominates our particular real material interest.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 2: The reason that the Italians have a disproportionate say and
Speaker 2: what happens is they are the guys right there in Rome.
Speaker 2: They are the ones who actually have to run the
Speaker 2: central Church.
Speaker 4: Uh.
Speaker 2: It is a very wealthy church in Italy for very
Speaker 2: historical reasons. And so they get a bigger say than
Speaker 2: the Africans do. Because the Africans, even though they have
Speaker 2: a lot of people, and you know, they have a
Speaker 2: lot of puts and fuse, Uh, they've got no money.
Speaker 2: They've got very little sort of infrastructure as far as
Speaker 2: like orders that have assets to go and then go
Speaker 2: out and do things elsewhere. They are becoming stronger because
Speaker 2: of programmers like we talked about, you know where they
Speaker 2: go and are actually supplying the manpower for out of
Speaker 2: these sailing you know, core Catholic territories. But they you know,
Speaker 2: they are not strong, uh, institutionally yet.
Speaker 1: So I want it ton't just go to who could
Speaker 1: possibly be his successor, because this is what everyone wants
Speaker 1: to know, Not that we have special insight to it,
Speaker 1: but I think there is some logical people that you know,
Speaker 1: if you spend time online, especially to non Catholics who
Speaker 1: want to get clicks, they share a lot about Cardinal Sarah.
Speaker 1: And I'm a big fan of Cardinal Sarah. But he's
Speaker 1: too old and too conservative for the position.
Speaker 2: I actually think that his age counts for him. I
Speaker 2: don't think we're going to I don't think he's too.
Speaker 1: Conservative and too contrarian for the position. A great admirer
Speaker 1: of his, I think he's if you don't know who
Speaker 1: he is, Cardinal Robert Sarah. He's an African cardinal. His
Speaker 1: writing is beautiful and smart and very intelligent and very profound,
Speaker 1: and you could read him. But I just think, is
Speaker 1: there are I'm going to read some some names and
Speaker 1: then we'll just talk about I don't have any of
Speaker 1: the names, and and if somebody else you know, let
Speaker 1: me know. There are the leading contenders, according to the media,
Speaker 1: which take it for it, was was Peter Ardou, the
Speaker 1: cardinal from Hungary. UH fre Dolan m Bongo from Dominic
Speaker 1: from Congo, Mario Gresh from Malta, Pietro Parali from He's
Speaker 1: the He's the Vatican's Secretary of State, Luis Tangali from
Speaker 1: the Philippines. And Pizza Bala, who is Italian but is
Speaker 1: from the Italian Aires from he represents like Israel, right,
Speaker 1: that's okay, yeah, okay. So and any of those the
Speaker 1: leading contenders in your opinion? Is there any and is
Speaker 1: any of them a transformational person? I know there's a
Speaker 1: lot of interest behind Pizza Bola, first for his name,
Speaker 1: but two because I mean he did do a very
Speaker 1: heroic thing, which was he did offer his life for
Speaker 1: that of the hostages, which is more than you can
Speaker 1: say from some people doing something bold and saintly almost
Speaker 1: in today's day and age. But Emily, do you is
Speaker 1: there anyone that you personally would love to see? And
Speaker 1: then two I would likely you know, guess is the
Speaker 1: leading contender.
Speaker 3: My family is deeply involved with Pizza Bala, largely because
Speaker 3: my husband and that Night of the Holy Supplies of
Speaker 3: People Knights or Cardinal Pizza Bala has been at the
Speaker 3: head of that organization for a long time.
Speaker 4: So I am a big fan.
Speaker 3: I do think he is an interesting story in opposite
Speaker 3: very much of Latin.
Speaker 4: You know, he's very tolerant of the Latin mask. He's
Speaker 4: very much.
Speaker 3: More of a conservative in those terms, but then also
Speaker 3: very worldly. He's very good at being at the forefront
Speaker 3: a foreign conflict, which you know he's been in the
Speaker 3: center of in.
Speaker 4: A good way.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he's been a foreign not a bad one.
Speaker 3: It would be most worried about someone like Taglely or Parolin.
Speaker 4: I think Carolin is. Yeah, Taglely is very progressive.
Speaker 3: I do not think he's in the front running, simply
Speaker 3: because even Pope Francis kicked him out of a high
Speaker 3: level job at Carrie Task, which is one of the
Speaker 3: service organizations with social organizations within the Church. He was
Speaker 3: booted out of there by Francis, so he was not
Speaker 3: popular even with that wing of the Vatican.
Speaker 4: Herolan is certainly a possibility.
Speaker 3: He's certainly done quite a bit of public work, but
Speaker 3: in the last couple of days he's also seemingly turned
Speaker 3: everybody off and then had a medical emergency, So I
Speaker 3: feel like.
Speaker 4: Whatever he may have been at the top, he is
Speaker 4: no longer. So it's also anybody's game.
Speaker 3: We've had situations in the past that, you know, the
Speaker 3: Holy Spirit has descended on somebody in Saint Peter's square
Speaker 3: and they're like, oh, hey, yes, you're the Pope now.
Speaker 3: It is entirely possible that someone could come out.
Speaker 4: Of left field.
Speaker 3: We all thought hope Francis had come out of left field,
Speaker 3: but he was sort of working his way up the
Speaker 3: ranks for a long time. I wouldn't anticipate that we're
Speaker 3: going to get any real surprises here. But it really
Speaker 3: is anybody's game.
Speaker 1: It's not going to be some some pastor from the
Speaker 1: middle of Kansas who is that's all of a sudden nominated.
Speaker 1: It's not a Disney movie. Jude, what do you do?
Speaker 1: I know you had a thumbs up for Pizza Ball
Speaker 1: as well. Why do you like him? And who else
Speaker 1: do you see as a leading contender? He's very like
Speaker 1: pro migrant stuff, right, do I have that correct? Okay?
Speaker 1: Kind of, so you're.
Speaker 3: Not going to get away from like they're all going
Speaker 3: to be a little pro migrant.
Speaker 1: Ardo Is from Hungary is very much not pro migrant.
Speaker 1: Neither is Carlils either from Africa anyway, But go ahead, Jude, Sorry.
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I think that so. Uh. As I said,
Speaker 2: as you were talking about, there are sort of material
Speaker 2: conditions of the election, right, the sort of regime analysis
Speaker 2: of the Francis years is that this was a disco. Uh,
Speaker 2: there was constant institutional reorganization. The Vatican is pretty much broke,
Speaker 2: like nobody really wants to talk about it, but you know,
Speaker 2: there is a reason that people who try to audit
Speaker 2: the Vatican keep getting like shuffled off the scene, and
Speaker 2: the whole system works pretty badly when you have institutional
Speaker 2: chaos and no money. So I think that uh, Pizza
Speaker 2: Bala and some of the other front runners have a
Speaker 2: compelling case to make that they're administrators. First, they will
Speaker 2: get the fisk in order they will stop this, you know,
Speaker 2: constant reconstitution of Rome, the Roman Court into dicastrees, you know,
Speaker 2: changing the heads of congregations or departments, you know, on
Speaker 2: a constant rolling basis. Uh. So, I think that he
Speaker 2: has not unlike a lot of the sort of dophins
Speaker 2: of the Francis era, including Prolyn and including Togle, he
Speaker 2: does not. He was not associated with any really high
Speaker 2: profile wonders. So what counts against Perlin is that he
Speaker 2: was instrumental in the Vaticans deal with the Chinese Communist
Speaker 2: Party to try to bring the church out from the
Speaker 2: underground in China, which was a huge catastrophic failure and
Speaker 2: was extremely embarrassing for everybody involved. So Proolin. The problem
Speaker 2: is he can't really detach himself from France's failed policies
Speaker 2: because he is such a Francis guy. People are going
Speaker 2: to say, it's going to be more of the show
Speaker 2: that we've had for twelve seasons. Nobody wants that. Whereas
Speaker 2: Pizza Baba has sort of kept his nose clean, he
Speaker 2: doesn't have, you know, extremely overt ideological commitments that are
Speaker 2: going to turn anyone off. And he's young, I actually
Speaker 2: think counts against him.
Speaker 1: In his forties or fifties.
Speaker 2: I think that he's sixty two, I.
Speaker 4: Would still really realize, which is young for yes, Okay, so.
Speaker 1: In the sixties, I'm doing really good in my research.
Speaker 2: While he's while he's you know, he's remembered for this
Speaker 2: sort of courageous act. He's also been critical of Israel's
Speaker 2: war in Gaza, which you know is actually a fairly
Speaker 2: popular position in the world, even in the United States,
Speaker 2: which is the most pro Israel country. Support for Israel
Speaker 2: has created twenty points over the past two years.
Speaker 1: Here's my, my, my, my attention towards him as this.
Speaker 1: And I reached out to something when Ireland had their
Speaker 1: vote to legalize abortion. I reached out to someone I
Speaker 1: know who worked for the Vatican, said why isn't the
Speaker 1: Pope going there? And they said, well, he'll be laughed
Speaker 1: out of the country. And I said, and Peter was
Speaker 1: hung upside down on a cross. And you're being laughed
Speaker 1: out of a country. If you're going to be the
Speaker 1: moral authority for one point four billion people and have
Speaker 1: to show something. I mean, I don't know the man
Speaker 1: at all, but I do believe if let's say Hama said, sure,
Speaker 1: you're going to step in for all these hostages, I
Speaker 1: think he would have stepped in and offered his life.
Speaker 1: That is a tremendously courageous, brave thing to do that
Speaker 1: you don't see not only in regular life, but you
Speaker 1: don't see from a lot of leaders, and a lot
Speaker 1: of leaders, a lot of leaders in the world won't
Speaker 1: even put their kids in the military, you know, in
Speaker 1: a time of peace, let alone put that any And you.
Speaker 3: Have to remember that his constituency is the Christians in
Speaker 3: the Holy Land, which are not welcome really in Gaza,
Speaker 3: but they're also not welcome.
Speaker 4: Really in Jerusalem. So he has a really difficult position.
Speaker 3: And he was very good at articulating where he fell,
Speaker 3: who he was there representing. And there's a lot of
Speaker 3: talk about continuing on and francis Is legacy in peacemaking.
Speaker 3: He stayed in Gaza with his constituency for a lot
Speaker 3: of time and bombs are falling on him. I mean,
Speaker 3: the church in Jerusalem was a last recue, or the
Speaker 3: church in Gaza was the last recues for Christians in
Speaker 3: that area.
Speaker 4: And he spoke regularly to Pope Francis.
Speaker 3: And so when you talk about the legacy of France's
Speaker 3: tearing on, he has an argument to make that he
Speaker 3: was there at the forefront of some of the biggest conflicts,
Speaker 3: or in the biggest conflict in the modern era, and
Speaker 3: he stayed in the middle of it and he managed it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's a great point. I mean, that's why
Speaker 1: a lot of love was given to the British royal
Speaker 1: family who stayed in London while the bombs were falling.
Speaker 1: I guess it's a good it's a good analogy. I
Speaker 1: have to have to close up the interview, Jude, if
Speaker 1: there's anything else besides pizza Bala, is there anybody else
Speaker 1: that you would you would envisioned as a leading contender?
Speaker 2: Well as already mentioned, I think that Carolin is pretty
Speaker 2: much cute. I think Arado has a better chance than
Speaker 2: any of the other so conservative candidates because he has
Speaker 2: been a good administrator. He was a good soldier during
Speaker 2: the amorris Ley Titsi clown show, which you know has
Speaker 2: been forgotten amid all the other clown shows of the
Speaker 2: past twelve years. Zupi is somebody we have not mentioned
Speaker 2: who is He's the patriarch of Milan. He has a
Speaker 2: compelling non a case for being an administrator. He's non ideological.
Speaker 2: He also sort of weirdly got a lot of USAID money.
Speaker 2: So when we talk about external pressure groups on the church,
Speaker 2: you know, I think that the State Department, at least
Speaker 2: circa twenty twenty two anointed its man. So I think
Speaker 2: that he sort of has a compelling argument to be
Speaker 2: the ideological deton candidate. He gets along with both the
Speaker 2: Days and the Latin Mass weirdos. He has run a
Speaker 2: very large charity organization. He's like Francis but also actually
Speaker 2: gets along with people. He's Italian, which counts for him.
Speaker 2: He's not grotesquely aged, but also not too young either,
Speaker 2: So I think you'd be if you're looking for, you know,
Speaker 2: the sort of if you're a degenerate and you're looking
Speaker 2: for the most mishandicapped that you could make.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're a gambled hope, which I recommend, but I'm
Speaker 1: sure I'm sure a betting market for it. Guys. Thank
Speaker 1: you both for being here so much. This has been
Speaker 1: a lot of fun, definitely not the usual podcast for listeners.
Speaker 1: You got everything from the papal tries and effect to
Speaker 1: different conspiracies, the State Department in the room, Emily. Where
Speaker 1: can people go to get your stuff? They want to
Speaker 1: read more from you?
Speaker 4: If they want to read more from me?
Speaker 3: Twitter is the easiest place, or ex Zinati Ean Sinnati
Speaker 3: on x and on sub I'm.
Speaker 1: Jude American conservaive magazine where people go on your social.
Speaker 2: Media, that's right. The American Conservative is the real place
Speaker 2: where the important stuff happens. Twitter is where I retweet
Speaker 2: pictures from frogging and toad uh so, But yeah, The
Speaker 2: American Conservative, which is a great magazine has contributors like
Speaker 2: Ryan gr Dusky. Yeah, so you know everybay Please go read, subscribe, donate,
Speaker 2: do your thing, share our articles.
Speaker 1: Great. All right, thank you guys so much for being
Speaker 1: on here and this is awesome. Thank you. Thanks Ryan,
Speaker 1: you're listening to It's a Numbers Game with Ryan Gradsky.
Speaker 1: We'll be right back, okay for our ask Me Anything
Speaker 1: segment and if you want to be part of it,
Speaker 1: please send me an email on questions about politics, you know, culture, entertainment, anything,
Speaker 1: and I would love to sit there and talk to
Speaker 1: you about it. Email me Ryan at Numbers Game Podcast
Speaker 1: dot com. That's Ryan at Numbers Plural Numbers Game podcast
Speaker 1: dot com and send me some questions and I would
Speaker 1: love to sit there and bring them on the show.
Speaker 1: I got a odd question from a listener who said,
Speaker 1: you mentioned that you went to see the Rolling Stones
Speaker 1: when you were a teenager and smoke the worst part
Speaker 1: of your life, which is true. I did, what musical
Speaker 1: act would you see if you that is no longer
Speaker 1: with us. I guess that is dead dead singer. I
Speaker 1: would like to see Jennis Joplin, Elvis Presley, James Brown
Speaker 1: or Amy Winehouse probably would be one of them. If
Speaker 1: I'm in the mood for jazz, I guess either Monk
Speaker 1: or Chad Baker or something of that, because I do
Speaker 1: love jazz, but that would be it cool question interesting.
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