1 00:00:01,960 --> 00:00:04,680 Speaker 1: Welcome back to a numbers game with Ryan Gerdoski. A 2 00:00:04,800 --> 00:00:08,440 Speaker 1: very exciting time of the year. Elections are starting now 3 00:00:08,920 --> 00:00:11,559 Speaker 1: for the twenty twenty five cycle, twenty twenty six cycle 4 00:00:11,600 --> 00:00:14,680 Speaker 1: all across the world, which always excites me and I'm 5 00:00:14,880 --> 00:00:18,599 Speaker 1: sure excited listeners. Ariy Sabato he is the director of 6 00:00:18,640 --> 00:00:21,200 Speaker 1: the Center for Politics at the University of Virginia. He's 7 00:00:21,320 --> 00:00:24,960 Speaker 1: very well respected on his political analysis, though I think 8 00:00:25,000 --> 00:00:28,080 Speaker 1: he's very overblown. I don't respect him that much, but 9 00:00:28,160 --> 00:00:30,320 Speaker 1: I think he's worth at least putting a grain of 10 00:00:30,400 --> 00:00:32,760 Speaker 1: salt listening to. It's not because he blocked me on 11 00:00:32,800 --> 00:00:34,640 Speaker 1: Twitter because I called him out for his big bag 12 00:00:34,640 --> 00:00:36,720 Speaker 1: of bullship, but that's besides the point. It's worth just 13 00:00:36,760 --> 00:00:38,599 Speaker 1: listening to and just seeing what he says. But he's 14 00:00:38,720 --> 00:00:44,279 Speaker 1: very much a mainstream media opinion person anyway. He has 15 00:00:44,360 --> 00:00:46,599 Speaker 1: first predictions for the first for the twenty twenty five 16 00:00:46,680 --> 00:00:50,680 Speaker 1: twenty twenty six governor's elections. Wasn't that many surprises. He 17 00:00:50,760 --> 00:00:53,640 Speaker 1: predicted Democrats have the advantage in flipping the governorship of 18 00:00:53,720 --> 00:00:57,280 Speaker 1: Virginia and that Republicans can take the governor's mansion in Kansas. 19 00:00:57,640 --> 00:01:00,880 Speaker 1: He said, Arizona and Michigan are the two most competitive states. 20 00:01:00,880 --> 00:01:06,160 Speaker 1: They're both occupied by Democrats. Two very quick things, and 21 00:01:06,200 --> 00:01:08,199 Speaker 1: the only quick things that I really think are worth 22 00:01:08,520 --> 00:01:11,280 Speaker 1: pointing out and putting an emphasis on. He put the 23 00:01:11,319 --> 00:01:15,880 Speaker 1: New Jersey governor's race as lean Democrat, which means it's 24 00:01:15,880 --> 00:01:19,800 Speaker 1: slightly advantage charge Democrats, but Republicans can come back, which 25 00:01:19,800 --> 00:01:21,760 Speaker 1: does a lot given that they have an eight hundred 26 00:01:21,880 --> 00:01:26,240 Speaker 1: thousand voter advantage registered voter advantage Democrats do Republicans in 27 00:01:26,280 --> 00:01:29,320 Speaker 1: the state. And then he put New York not as 28 00:01:29,360 --> 00:01:32,479 Speaker 1: a solid Democrat state, which it typically is, but as 29 00:01:32,520 --> 00:01:35,560 Speaker 1: a likely Democrat state. And what does that mean is 30 00:01:35,560 --> 00:01:38,760 Speaker 1: that Larry is looking at the tea leaves of the 31 00:01:38,760 --> 00:01:41,880 Speaker 1: twenty twenty four election and the great realignment that happen 32 00:01:42,040 --> 00:01:47,000 Speaker 1: and saying, yeah, there's these deep blue states, especially for 33 00:01:47,080 --> 00:01:51,840 Speaker 1: governor's elections, which are not as hard line and rigid, 34 00:01:51,880 --> 00:01:54,280 Speaker 1: and how they vote compared to the presidential election, there 35 00:01:54,280 --> 00:01:57,480 Speaker 1: could be some surprises. And if he's saying that, then 36 00:01:57,520 --> 00:01:59,680 Speaker 1: the mainstream media will probably also pick up on that, 37 00:01:59,720 --> 00:02:03,600 Speaker 1: because he using mouthpiece for what they all institutionally believe. 38 00:02:03,920 --> 00:02:07,120 Speaker 1: Kind of interesting worth pointing out. Secondly, across the pond, 39 00:02:07,120 --> 00:02:11,000 Speaker 1: there was the election for local governments, for mayoral elections 40 00:02:11,040 --> 00:02:16,160 Speaker 1: and by elections. That's basically the British version of special elections, 41 00:02:16,160 --> 00:02:18,359 Speaker 1: what they call a special election. There's no real difference 42 00:02:18,360 --> 00:02:21,079 Speaker 1: besides called by election anyway. They have the local elections, 43 00:02:21,120 --> 00:02:24,360 Speaker 1: mayoral elections and the by election, and the Reform Party, 44 00:02:24,400 --> 00:02:28,000 Speaker 1: the Form UK Party led by Nigel Faraj's a populist 45 00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:33,320 Speaker 1: conservative party, swept across the country and they even picked 46 00:02:33,400 --> 00:02:36,840 Speaker 1: up one of the most labor pro labor that's the 47 00:02:36,880 --> 00:02:40,520 Speaker 1: center left party in the UK, most pro labor seats 48 00:02:40,520 --> 00:02:44,480 Speaker 1: in the parliament. In the by election speaks volumes to 49 00:02:44,560 --> 00:02:46,920 Speaker 1: what's going on in that country and the discomfort and 50 00:02:47,000 --> 00:02:49,600 Speaker 1: the growth of the national populist movement which has not 51 00:02:49,760 --> 00:02:53,320 Speaker 1: seeded despite Trump being elected. You will always sear people 52 00:02:53,400 --> 00:02:56,200 Speaker 1: in the media get a guest on from Canada who 53 00:02:56,240 --> 00:02:58,520 Speaker 1: made the same claim, which is just not true. The 54 00:02:58,639 --> 00:03:02,800 Speaker 1: national populist movement is growing and it's continuing growing across 55 00:03:02,840 --> 00:03:06,640 Speaker 1: the world, despite how unpopular our present may be in 56 00:03:06,639 --> 00:03:09,480 Speaker 1: some of these places. We'll see how Farage changes the 57 00:03:09,480 --> 00:03:12,600 Speaker 1: consensus of that country and what goes on in the future. 58 00:03:12,600 --> 00:03:15,160 Speaker 1: But it was a very good night for Nigel Farage 59 00:03:15,600 --> 00:03:18,680 Speaker 1: on Thursday night Friday morning, depending on what time is 60 00:03:18,720 --> 00:03:21,679 Speaker 1: on your own. Lastly, and this is what this episode's about. 61 00:03:21,680 --> 00:03:23,959 Speaker 1: I want to talk about that another election happening in 62 00:03:24,000 --> 00:03:27,440 Speaker 1: the very short term, but very few people are already voting. 63 00:03:27,440 --> 00:03:31,520 Speaker 1: This election, and that is the election for the next Pope. Now, 64 00:03:31,520 --> 00:03:33,880 Speaker 1: as everyone knows, Pope Francis went to his eternal rest 65 00:03:33,919 --> 00:03:36,440 Speaker 1: on May twenty first, and the cardinals are headed to 66 00:03:36,520 --> 00:03:39,440 Speaker 1: Rome on May seventh to have a conclave to decide 67 00:03:39,440 --> 00:03:42,680 Speaker 1: the next Pope. The man who receives two thirds majority 68 00:03:42,680 --> 00:03:44,440 Speaker 1: will be the next head of the Roman Catholic Church, 69 00:03:44,520 --> 00:03:46,800 Speaker 1: the largest church in the world, with one point four 70 00:03:46,880 --> 00:03:50,080 Speaker 1: billion adherents to the faith. This is a practice, the 71 00:03:50,120 --> 00:03:53,960 Speaker 1: conclave that started in the thirteenth century. Now this election 72 00:03:54,040 --> 00:03:56,200 Speaker 1: will decide not just the next Pope, but the future 73 00:03:56,200 --> 00:04:00,760 Speaker 1: of the Catholic Church. It's no secret that Pope, you know, Francis, 74 00:04:00,880 --> 00:04:04,760 Speaker 1: was much more progressive than his predecessor, Probe Benedict. He 75 00:04:04,920 --> 00:04:08,160 Speaker 1: envisioned Pope Frances envision a larger Catholic Church that it 76 00:04:08,240 --> 00:04:13,560 Speaker 1: welcomes tons of people, even those who didn't have believe 77 00:04:13,560 --> 00:04:16,159 Speaker 1: in the doctrine. That they had opened conflicts with the 78 00:04:16,160 --> 00:04:19,880 Speaker 1: Catholic Church. He even said atheists go to heaven. Benedict, 79 00:04:19,960 --> 00:04:22,559 Speaker 1: on the other hand, believed that the Catholic Church should 80 00:04:22,560 --> 00:04:26,599 Speaker 1: become more orthodox, even if it means shrinking in size, 81 00:04:27,160 --> 00:04:29,479 Speaker 1: and that we could. You know, it's almost how the 82 00:04:29,520 --> 00:04:33,279 Speaker 1: monks treated the Catholic Church during the Dark Ages, where 83 00:04:33,320 --> 00:04:38,360 Speaker 1: they would close themselves into their monasteries, and then through 84 00:04:38,400 --> 00:04:41,160 Speaker 1: the century of the Dark Age, come out and save 85 00:04:41,279 --> 00:04:44,880 Speaker 1: Europe and save European tradition and then reignite the church. 86 00:04:46,080 --> 00:04:49,120 Speaker 1: There is a lot of conflict going on within the 87 00:04:49,160 --> 00:04:53,400 Speaker 1: Catholic Church because most younger Catholics, especially in America, most 88 00:04:53,440 --> 00:04:57,160 Speaker 1: younger Catholic priests are very conservative. They are much more 89 00:04:57,200 --> 00:05:00,640 Speaker 1: in line with Benedict's vision of the church in some respects, 90 00:05:01,040 --> 00:05:03,800 Speaker 1: and so are a large number of Catholic priests coming 91 00:05:03,880 --> 00:05:08,880 Speaker 1: out of Africa. The cardinals who are older, many are 92 00:05:09,000 --> 00:05:14,800 Speaker 1: baby boomers or Silent generation. They are much more progressive 93 00:05:15,040 --> 00:05:18,799 Speaker 1: than the average twenty year olds coming into the church 94 00:05:18,880 --> 00:05:22,880 Speaker 1: and churchly life, and that is a conflict over the 95 00:05:22,920 --> 00:05:26,679 Speaker 1: future of the Church of what vision represents it. Eighty 96 00:05:26,720 --> 00:05:29,800 Speaker 1: percent of the cardinal's voting were appointed by Francis. That 97 00:05:29,880 --> 00:05:33,039 Speaker 1: will play a big part in this. Some of the 98 00:05:33,080 --> 00:05:38,320 Speaker 1: potential successors include Cardinal Peter Urdo from Hungary. He's very 99 00:05:38,360 --> 00:05:41,719 Speaker 1: critical of mass immigration, He's very conservative. He's probably the 100 00:05:41,760 --> 00:05:45,680 Speaker 1: most likely conservative who has a real chance becoming the 101 00:05:45,760 --> 00:05:49,880 Speaker 1: next Pope. Cardinal of f Dolan m. Bungo from the 102 00:05:49,880 --> 00:05:53,760 Speaker 1: Dominican Republic in the Congo, not the Medican Republic, the 103 00:05:53,760 --> 00:05:57,159 Speaker 1: Democratic Proba of the Congo. Everyone who listens to this 104 00:05:57,160 --> 00:05:59,760 Speaker 1: podcast knows I can never pronounce a name, so forgive 105 00:05:59,800 --> 00:06:05,320 Speaker 1: me as usual. Cardinal Mario Gretch from Malta, Cardinal Pietro 106 00:06:05,600 --> 00:06:09,039 Speaker 1: Parolin he's the Vatican Secretary of State, and Cardinals Luis 107 00:06:10,440 --> 00:06:13,800 Speaker 1: Tangelli from the Philippines. Those are who the media have 108 00:06:13,880 --> 00:06:16,760 Speaker 1: said are the most likely contenders. Now, of course, someone 109 00:06:16,800 --> 00:06:19,280 Speaker 1: else can do it, can be appointed pope. There is 110 00:06:19,400 --> 00:06:21,880 Speaker 1: not a rule they have to be a current cardinal, 111 00:06:22,440 --> 00:06:24,960 Speaker 1: though it is very very likely they will be, but 112 00:06:25,600 --> 00:06:28,880 Speaker 1: we'll wait and see. The new Pope does have big 113 00:06:28,920 --> 00:06:32,040 Speaker 1: shoes to fill, as Francis was beloved by the media, 114 00:06:32,720 --> 00:06:36,919 Speaker 1: by many Western Catholics and many and he was scorned 115 00:06:36,920 --> 00:06:40,400 Speaker 1: by many conservative members of the faith. You know, being 116 00:06:40,440 --> 00:06:43,400 Speaker 1: a practicing Catholic myself, I have a lot of problems 117 00:06:43,400 --> 00:06:46,080 Speaker 1: with some things that Francis did as pope. I think 118 00:06:46,080 --> 00:06:49,560 Speaker 1: he was very, very focused on positive news coverage while 119 00:06:49,600 --> 00:06:52,800 Speaker 1: ignoring issues that were deeply affecting the church, because he 120 00:06:52,920 --> 00:06:56,919 Speaker 1: cared a lot about being in Western media. I remember 121 00:06:57,000 --> 00:06:58,560 Speaker 1: a couple of years ago I had a friend who 122 00:06:58,600 --> 00:07:01,160 Speaker 1: worked for the church and work for the Vatican, and 123 00:07:01,560 --> 00:07:04,680 Speaker 1: they were having the vote to legalize abortion in Ireland 124 00:07:04,920 --> 00:07:07,640 Speaker 1: and I messaged him and I said, why isn't frances 125 00:07:07,680 --> 00:07:11,600 Speaker 1: going to Ireland to make a speech and defend the 126 00:07:11,680 --> 00:07:14,880 Speaker 1: right to life? And the responded with will he be 127 00:07:14,960 --> 00:07:17,920 Speaker 1: laughed out of the country and I and I said, well, 128 00:07:18,560 --> 00:07:21,760 Speaker 1: you know, Pope Peter died on a cross upside down 129 00:07:21,960 --> 00:07:25,600 Speaker 1: for Christ. You know, tell me about being afraid of 130 00:07:25,640 --> 00:07:27,720 Speaker 1: being laughed at. You know you want to be laughed at. 131 00:07:27,800 --> 00:07:29,960 Speaker 1: Go become a conservative on CNN. Trust me, that's a 132 00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:34,120 Speaker 1: hard job. They're there, you know, take a bold stance. 133 00:07:34,240 --> 00:07:36,640 Speaker 1: And I thought that a lot of times Francis refused 134 00:07:36,640 --> 00:07:39,680 Speaker 1: to do that, and it says, you know a lot 135 00:07:39,680 --> 00:07:42,400 Speaker 1: of I think about him. You're not brave from going 136 00:07:42,480 --> 00:07:44,800 Speaker 1: to or going to Africa to tell a climate change 137 00:07:44,920 --> 00:07:49,200 Speaker 1: or lecturing Hungarians on migrant rights. But I'm not going 138 00:07:49,240 --> 00:07:52,440 Speaker 1: to pretend that I know all the pieces moving pieces 139 00:07:52,440 --> 00:07:54,800 Speaker 1: when it comes to the church or who could be 140 00:07:54,840 --> 00:07:57,240 Speaker 1: the next pope. So I have two very very intelligent 141 00:07:57,280 --> 00:07:59,240 Speaker 1: guests who are coming in to delve into the legacy 142 00:07:59,240 --> 00:08:03,120 Speaker 1: of France's and insights on who the next possible pope 143 00:08:03,160 --> 00:08:09,200 Speaker 1: will be. So stay tuned for that. Judrusso is the 144 00:08:09,280 --> 00:08:12,640 Speaker 1: editor at the American Conservative magazine. He's actually my editor 145 00:08:12,680 --> 00:08:15,280 Speaker 1: when I write there. It's a fantastic publication that I 146 00:08:15,360 --> 00:08:19,320 Speaker 1: highly recommend listeners check out. Emily Zanati is an independent 147 00:08:19,320 --> 00:08:21,720 Speaker 1: writer who I followed for a very long time. She's 148 00:08:21,920 --> 00:08:25,800 Speaker 1: super smart about all these all papal issues and a 149 00:08:25,840 --> 00:08:28,440 Speaker 1: host of others. You can read her brilliant substack growing 150 00:08:28,440 --> 00:08:32,360 Speaker 1: olives in Nashville on Emilyzanati dot substack dot com. Thank 151 00:08:32,400 --> 00:08:33,600 Speaker 1: you both for being here. 152 00:08:33,520 --> 00:08:35,160 Speaker 2: Thanks for having us, Thank you for having me. 153 00:08:35,679 --> 00:08:38,160 Speaker 1: The first question, I'll direct it towards Emily. What is 154 00:08:38,200 --> 00:08:39,560 Speaker 1: Pope Francis's legacy? 155 00:08:39,800 --> 00:08:43,760 Speaker 3: I think a lot of his legacy is ultimately a 156 00:08:43,800 --> 00:08:48,560 Speaker 3: bit of confusion. When it comes down to Pope Francis. 157 00:08:48,600 --> 00:08:51,439 Speaker 3: I think there is a certain side of him that 158 00:08:51,559 --> 00:08:57,920 Speaker 3: is very accessible it's quite liberal in sort of a 159 00:08:58,000 --> 00:08:59,640 Speaker 3: more meticense. 160 00:09:01,120 --> 00:09:04,000 Speaker 4: But I think ultimately towards the end, there were a 161 00:09:04,040 --> 00:09:06,920 Speaker 4: lot of confusing messages and. 162 00:09:08,520 --> 00:09:11,640 Speaker 3: It left a lot of Catholics kind of not quite 163 00:09:11,720 --> 00:09:12,640 Speaker 3: sure where they were. 164 00:09:12,800 --> 00:09:15,640 Speaker 4: It's got a lot of warm and fuzzy feelings. 165 00:09:15,200 --> 00:09:20,479 Speaker 3: But not as many, not as much dogmatic certainty about Catholicism. 166 00:09:20,559 --> 00:09:21,160 Speaker 4: So I think. 167 00:09:21,120 --> 00:09:24,360 Speaker 3: Ultimately his legacy is going to be this sort of 168 00:09:25,040 --> 00:09:26,360 Speaker 3: long term confusion. 169 00:09:27,080 --> 00:09:30,400 Speaker 1: Ultimately, do you think that having so much positive coverage 170 00:09:30,440 --> 00:09:31,679 Speaker 1: was worth the drawbacks? 171 00:09:31,920 --> 00:09:32,120 Speaker 4: Yeah? 172 00:09:32,160 --> 00:09:38,240 Speaker 3: I think the most interesting little snippet I've ever seen 173 00:09:38,280 --> 00:09:43,720 Speaker 3: of him was he was speaking about how if he 174 00:09:43,760 --> 00:09:46,400 Speaker 3: could do one miracle, he would heal all the children. 175 00:09:46,720 --> 00:09:49,120 Speaker 4: Right. He was in his office and he's talking about 176 00:09:49,160 --> 00:09:51,280 Speaker 4: how he would feel all the children. 177 00:09:52,200 --> 00:09:56,200 Speaker 3: And on the wall behind him in his personal quarters 178 00:09:56,960 --> 00:10:01,840 Speaker 3: is a piece of art by a man named Marco Rupnik, 179 00:10:02,360 --> 00:10:11,160 Speaker 3: who was excommunicated initially for abuse of nuns, and I 180 00:10:11,160 --> 00:10:16,280 Speaker 3: mean not just physical abuse but also personal abuse, spiritual abuse, 181 00:10:17,200 --> 00:10:20,959 Speaker 3: abuse of and and he was restored to the priesthood 182 00:10:21,040 --> 00:10:26,720 Speaker 3: under Francis. So it's this ultimate kind of see moron 183 00:10:26,880 --> 00:10:30,840 Speaker 3: of a papacy. Right, I love being wonderful to children, 184 00:10:30,960 --> 00:10:34,640 Speaker 3: but also when it comes to abuse victims, I'm not 185 00:10:34,840 --> 00:10:37,880 Speaker 3: listening to them. So I think that's kind of the 186 00:10:38,360 --> 00:10:39,800 Speaker 3: Francis papacy in a nutshell. 187 00:10:40,280 --> 00:10:41,720 Speaker 1: What do you think of the idea that he was 188 00:10:41,720 --> 00:10:43,959 Speaker 1: focused on media over other things. 189 00:10:44,160 --> 00:10:46,280 Speaker 2: I think that there's certainly the case, and I think 190 00:10:46,320 --> 00:10:48,720 Speaker 2: that you see this and some of the peculiarities of 191 00:10:48,760 --> 00:10:53,920 Speaker 2: his approach to the American Church specifically, he spent a 192 00:10:53,960 --> 00:11:00,479 Speaker 2: lot of time for fixating on traditionalists and whether traditionalists, 193 00:11:01,120 --> 00:11:04,840 Speaker 2: you know, people who prefer the traditional Latin Mass have 194 00:11:04,960 --> 00:11:10,040 Speaker 2: some sort of scheme going on against him. There are 195 00:11:10,040 --> 00:11:14,800 Speaker 2: not actually that many Latin masscoers, but they are disproportionately 196 00:11:14,880 --> 00:11:21,160 Speaker 2: represented in American Catholic media, especially online, and so he 197 00:11:21,320 --> 00:11:24,920 Speaker 2: spent an awful lot of time and a lot of 198 00:11:25,880 --> 00:11:31,680 Speaker 2: institutional cloud micromanaging the way that these people go to 199 00:11:31,760 --> 00:11:34,960 Speaker 2: mass and the conditions under which they can sort of 200 00:11:35,360 --> 00:11:38,160 Speaker 2: practice the type of mass that they want in a 201 00:11:38,200 --> 00:11:43,120 Speaker 2: way that was unprecedented even in the immediate post conciliary era. 202 00:11:43,960 --> 00:11:46,240 Speaker 1: What you was saying is correct, there's a million. I 203 00:11:46,280 --> 00:11:49,080 Speaker 1: think the essens are there are one million Latin maskowers 204 00:11:49,120 --> 00:11:52,520 Speaker 1: in the world. I mean of one point four billion Catholics, 205 00:11:52,520 --> 00:11:55,400 Speaker 1: there's one million in the whole world. Whistend. The style 206 00:11:55,440 --> 00:11:58,360 Speaker 1: of masks and poet France has spent a lot, a lot, 207 00:11:58,480 --> 00:12:01,760 Speaker 1: a lot of time saying on which when they can go, 208 00:12:01,920 --> 00:12:05,760 Speaker 1: who could perform it where it could be an enormous 209 00:12:05,760 --> 00:12:09,000 Speaker 1: obsession for such a minority of Catholics. Anyway, Sorry, did 210 00:12:09,040 --> 00:12:10,360 Speaker 1: you go ahead? I just want to explain for the 211 00:12:10,400 --> 00:12:11,960 Speaker 1: non Catholics and. 212 00:12:11,080 --> 00:12:13,920 Speaker 2: That yeah, no, no, I appreciate that, And that's something 213 00:12:13,960 --> 00:12:17,079 Speaker 2: worth keeping in mind here as we sort of go 214 00:12:17,120 --> 00:12:21,040 Speaker 2: down the rabbit hole. So I think that, you know, 215 00:12:21,120 --> 00:12:23,400 Speaker 2: a lot has been made of the fact that Francis 216 00:12:23,440 --> 00:12:28,280 Speaker 2: really did chase headlines, but I think that too little 217 00:12:28,360 --> 00:12:31,080 Speaker 2: has been made of the fact that he also really 218 00:12:31,160 --> 00:12:36,040 Speaker 2: read them. He was in some ways an extremely online pope, 219 00:12:37,160 --> 00:12:40,720 Speaker 2: the way that you know, a certain president is extremely 220 00:12:40,880 --> 00:12:44,760 Speaker 2: on Twitter. And that was weird. 221 00:12:45,760 --> 00:12:45,960 Speaker 4: You know. 222 00:12:46,000 --> 00:12:52,040 Speaker 2: One of the basic problems facing the modern papacy, especially 223 00:12:52,080 --> 00:12:55,280 Speaker 2: from about nineteen forty on, is the problem of mass media, 224 00:12:56,320 --> 00:13:01,440 Speaker 2: which allows for a sort of central eye control within 225 00:13:01,520 --> 00:13:06,160 Speaker 2: the church that was previously undreamt of. You know what 226 00:13:06,240 --> 00:13:09,040 Speaker 2: doesn't mean when the pope can you know, get into 227 00:13:09,040 --> 00:13:13,560 Speaker 2: headlines or speak directly through radio. This is something that 228 00:13:13,600 --> 00:13:17,480 Speaker 2: the church, you know, administratively, has had a hard time 229 00:13:17,520 --> 00:13:22,120 Speaker 2: sort of figuring out. And I think that Francis shows 230 00:13:22,160 --> 00:13:25,400 Speaker 2: the sort of terminus of a certain line of development, 231 00:13:25,480 --> 00:13:28,880 Speaker 2: which is this is really cool. We can sort of 232 00:13:28,920 --> 00:13:33,040 Speaker 2: sweep aside all of the other power bases and interests 233 00:13:33,040 --> 00:13:36,559 Speaker 2: in the church, and I can just throw grenades into 234 00:13:36,559 --> 00:13:40,880 Speaker 2: people's lives directly by talking to the press or you know, 235 00:13:41,080 --> 00:13:42,520 Speaker 2: having people live stream me. 236 00:13:43,400 --> 00:13:45,320 Speaker 1: And then famously would say that when I have the 237 00:13:45,360 --> 00:13:48,400 Speaker 1: press misinterpret him, he doesn't speak English, so that's why 238 00:13:48,760 --> 00:13:49,760 Speaker 1: it's really their fault. 239 00:13:50,520 --> 00:13:57,800 Speaker 2: Great, and this ambiguity is ambiguity is where personal power thrives. 240 00:13:58,000 --> 00:13:58,160 Speaker 1: Right. 241 00:13:58,640 --> 00:14:03,080 Speaker 2: The fact that he kept things ambiguous and confused meant 242 00:14:03,120 --> 00:14:06,840 Speaker 2: that he was that he was the ultimate sort of 243 00:14:06,960 --> 00:14:10,400 Speaker 2: judge or arbiter of what was actually going on personally. 244 00:14:11,880 --> 00:14:14,840 Speaker 4: So I think this was a massive centralization of power. 245 00:14:16,240 --> 00:14:20,320 Speaker 3: We entered an era where we talked about clericalism quite 246 00:14:20,320 --> 00:14:22,920 Speaker 3: a bit. That Poe Francis was the end of the 247 00:14:22,920 --> 00:14:26,000 Speaker 3: clerical era, which means that you know, you're giving all 248 00:14:26,080 --> 00:14:28,840 Speaker 3: of the power up to the priestly class, or the 249 00:14:28,880 --> 00:14:34,600 Speaker 3: bishops or the administration and instead essentially Poe Francis took 250 00:14:34,680 --> 00:14:38,480 Speaker 3: that power, put it back into the Vatican and often 251 00:14:38,960 --> 00:14:42,160 Speaker 3: dictated from on high what should have been. 252 00:14:42,200 --> 00:14:45,400 Speaker 4: A pastoral idea. So like the Latin Mass. 253 00:14:46,400 --> 00:14:50,360 Speaker 3: You know, if if your if your flock would prefer 254 00:14:50,440 --> 00:14:52,280 Speaker 3: a more traditionalized mass, then. 255 00:14:52,120 --> 00:14:53,320 Speaker 4: That should be your call. 256 00:14:53,880 --> 00:14:55,760 Speaker 3: Or if you would like a personal pre litter, then 257 00:14:55,800 --> 00:14:59,840 Speaker 3: that should be your call. But Francis basically pulled that 258 00:14:59,840 --> 00:15:05,000 Speaker 3: ou all back into that I can both administratively and 259 00:15:05,200 --> 00:15:08,800 Speaker 3: personally by doing these, you know, speaking directly often to 260 00:15:08,960 --> 00:15:14,000 Speaker 3: the media and circumventing what would have been typical channels 261 00:15:14,040 --> 00:15:16,600 Speaker 3: for the last you know, fifteen hundred to two thousand years. 262 00:15:16,680 --> 00:15:16,880 Speaker 4: Yeah. 263 00:15:16,960 --> 00:15:20,080 Speaker 1: So the thing about the thing about it is very 264 00:15:20,120 --> 00:15:24,000 Speaker 1: interesting because Pope Benedict, which is Poe Francis, his predecessor, 265 00:15:24,680 --> 00:15:27,600 Speaker 1: spoke about a vision of a church that was smaller 266 00:15:27,640 --> 00:15:36,880 Speaker 1: in size, but more more I guess doctrinally, you know, true, yeah, 267 00:15:36,960 --> 00:15:40,720 Speaker 1: more observe it, more religious, more more adherent to the doctrine. 268 00:15:40,880 --> 00:15:43,240 Speaker 1: But a smaller church, a smaller than a one point 269 00:15:43,320 --> 00:15:46,000 Speaker 1: four billion dollar church. Pote france Is, on the other hand, 270 00:15:46,080 --> 00:15:49,160 Speaker 1: sat there and said, no atheists go to heaven, and 271 00:15:49,760 --> 00:15:52,480 Speaker 1: let's they did. He did a lot of like touch 272 00:15:52,560 --> 00:15:56,920 Speaker 1: and go outreach to gay communities. He did a lot 273 00:15:57,040 --> 00:16:02,240 Speaker 1: of He did a lot of outreach towards just people 274 00:16:02,240 --> 00:16:05,600 Speaker 1: who made it as easy as possible. You know, there 275 00:16:05,680 --> 00:16:07,800 Speaker 1: used to be a thing like even a poach on 276 00:16:07,840 --> 00:16:12,680 Speaker 1: Paul the Second where the Easter, the Eastern Christmas Catholics 277 00:16:12,680 --> 00:16:14,840 Speaker 1: and the cafeteria Catholics who pick and choose which part 278 00:16:14,840 --> 00:16:16,640 Speaker 1: of the religion they want to believe in, which is 279 00:16:16,920 --> 00:16:20,920 Speaker 1: you know, probably most Catholics, but though Pope John Paul 280 00:16:20,960 --> 00:16:24,600 Speaker 1: the second major overage to them. Francis was like, let's 281 00:16:24,600 --> 00:16:26,880 Speaker 1: go past the cafeteria and see if anyone's in the gym, 282 00:16:27,160 --> 00:16:31,400 Speaker 1: and they'll be included in it too. The next pope 283 00:16:31,440 --> 00:16:34,360 Speaker 1: has a big choice in this in the idea of 284 00:16:34,440 --> 00:16:37,080 Speaker 1: what kind of church is he going to reform? And 285 00:16:37,120 --> 00:16:39,240 Speaker 1: I want to go over the idea of who's going 286 00:16:39,320 --> 00:16:42,120 Speaker 1: to replace him? But before I do, what would be 287 00:16:42,720 --> 00:16:45,960 Speaker 1: I mean, is there anyone left with a serious chance 288 00:16:45,960 --> 00:16:49,720 Speaker 1: who has the vision that Benedict died of a smaller, 289 00:16:50,400 --> 00:16:55,120 Speaker 1: more I guess, devout church than one that Francis had. Emily, 290 00:16:55,160 --> 00:16:56,880 Speaker 1: why don't you go first, then we'll go to June. 291 00:16:57,120 --> 00:17:01,480 Speaker 3: There are certainly cardinals in the church who have more 292 00:17:01,520 --> 00:17:03,600 Speaker 3: of a Benedict style approach. 293 00:17:03,760 --> 00:17:05,440 Speaker 4: I think Burke and Sarah. 294 00:17:05,920 --> 00:17:09,080 Speaker 3: Whether they have a chance of becoming pope is another 295 00:17:09,400 --> 00:17:13,200 Speaker 3: matter altogether. They're certainly at the very edge of voting. 296 00:17:13,760 --> 00:17:17,160 Speaker 3: Both are seventy eight seventy nine, and there are certainly 297 00:17:17,240 --> 00:17:22,440 Speaker 3: other more conservative style cardinals who have the opportunity. 298 00:17:22,520 --> 00:17:22,800 Speaker 1: We have. 299 00:17:23,160 --> 00:17:26,080 Speaker 4: Also, we have to remember that even while. 300 00:17:27,320 --> 00:17:33,120 Speaker 3: Francis was trying to reform everything, these reforms never really happened. 301 00:17:32,680 --> 00:17:33,439 Speaker 4: On his watch. 302 00:17:34,320 --> 00:17:38,440 Speaker 3: The things that they wanted quite badly, the synod and senidality, 303 00:17:38,960 --> 00:17:41,840 Speaker 3: and the idea of getting married priests and the amazon 304 00:17:42,160 --> 00:17:47,240 Speaker 3: and women deacons, they fell flat because ultimately the administration 305 00:17:47,520 --> 00:17:51,480 Speaker 3: also didn't want them. We have a younger, more conservative church, 306 00:17:51,600 --> 00:17:55,480 Speaker 3: and that's just the reality that the Conclave and many 307 00:17:55,560 --> 00:17:58,600 Speaker 3: of these cardinals who are you know, of advanced age, 308 00:17:59,119 --> 00:17:59,720 Speaker 3: are going. 309 00:17:59,560 --> 00:18:02,199 Speaker 4: To have to reckon with in the next couple of years. 310 00:18:02,640 --> 00:18:06,560 Speaker 3: We've seen all of these studies that say the priests 311 00:18:06,560 --> 00:18:08,840 Speaker 3: that are coming into the church now are more conservative, 312 00:18:08,880 --> 00:18:12,040 Speaker 3: they're more traditional, even if they're open to Nova's order, 313 00:18:12,160 --> 00:18:14,359 Speaker 3: even if they're open to, you know, sort of a 314 00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:16,680 Speaker 3: more liberal approach to some of the dogma. They are 315 00:18:16,720 --> 00:18:18,560 Speaker 3: not strayed from that very much. 316 00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:20,919 Speaker 4: And so any pope. 317 00:18:20,600 --> 00:18:24,240 Speaker 3: That comes into this situation is going to have to 318 00:18:25,280 --> 00:18:28,119 Speaker 3: wrangle with them. And when you talk about the Latin 319 00:18:28,160 --> 00:18:32,920 Speaker 3: mask and tradition, Ando's custotis and putting the feet down 320 00:18:32,960 --> 00:18:34,280 Speaker 3: on the Latin mask, and to put down on the 321 00:18:34,359 --> 00:18:37,719 Speaker 3: Latin mask, it really grew the Latin mask more than 322 00:18:37,760 --> 00:18:38,760 Speaker 3: it did anything else. 323 00:18:38,880 --> 00:18:40,880 Speaker 4: It's part of energize is that same group. 324 00:18:41,040 --> 00:18:43,119 Speaker 1: It was a effect for sure. 325 00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:47,480 Speaker 3: It was a strike sand effect of Barber streisand. 326 00:18:53,440 --> 00:18:57,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, so yeah, but I think Emily Emily is bringing 327 00:18:57,680 --> 00:19:00,560 Speaker 1: up an important point that I mentioned earlier in the taping, 328 00:19:00,720 --> 00:19:04,520 Speaker 1: is is that there is, like the Canadian elections, for 329 00:19:04,520 --> 00:19:08,159 Speaker 1: those who paid attention, there is a generational divide between 330 00:19:08,240 --> 00:19:11,720 Speaker 1: baby boomers and Silent generation. More than baby boomers with 331 00:19:11,800 --> 00:19:17,600 Speaker 1: Silent generation, cardinals and baby generations who are more liberal, 332 00:19:17,600 --> 00:19:21,000 Speaker 1: they are more in the Frances Vane younger priests. Anyone 333 00:19:21,400 --> 00:19:23,560 Speaker 1: signing up, especially from a Western country, to be a 334 00:19:23,640 --> 00:19:26,159 Speaker 1: priests at this point in this day and age, is 335 00:19:26,200 --> 00:19:30,040 Speaker 1: somebody who is very orthodox or pretty orthodox. So that 336 00:19:30,280 --> 00:19:33,240 Speaker 1: generational divide between the people leading the church and those 337 00:19:33,280 --> 00:19:37,320 Speaker 1: coming up through the ranks is seismic. It's very large. So, Jude, 338 00:19:37,320 --> 00:19:38,600 Speaker 1: what do you think about that? 339 00:19:38,840 --> 00:19:42,120 Speaker 2: Well, So, I think that there are two things worth 340 00:19:42,160 --> 00:19:45,600 Speaker 2: talking about here. The first one is being careful to 341 00:19:47,119 --> 00:19:49,960 Speaker 2: not project the conditions of the American Church on the 342 00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:54,919 Speaker 2: rest of the rest of the world. The priesthood is 343 00:19:54,920 --> 00:19:59,040 Speaker 2: certainly growing more conservative and younger, and the church generally 344 00:19:59,119 --> 00:20:03,120 Speaker 2: more conservative than you in the United States, but this 345 00:20:03,240 --> 00:20:07,840 Speaker 2: does not necessarily obtain in like Latin America, where young 346 00:20:07,880 --> 00:20:13,520 Speaker 2: people are increasingly becoming Protestant, where you know, you have 347 00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:17,560 Speaker 2: trouble getting anybody into the priesthood, but the people that 348 00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:20,119 Speaker 2: you do have coming into the priesthood are sort of 349 00:20:20,119 --> 00:20:23,080 Speaker 2: a weird mix because of the conditions that obtain in 350 00:20:23,119 --> 00:20:29,159 Speaker 2: Latin America. So something that Americans, I think tend not 351 00:20:29,160 --> 00:20:32,680 Speaker 2: to have an appreciation of is just how healthy, robust, 352 00:20:32,720 --> 00:20:36,760 Speaker 2: and relatively wealthy the American Church is. How we are 353 00:20:36,760 --> 00:20:41,120 Speaker 2: in much better condition than the Europeans or the South Americans. 354 00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:45,080 Speaker 1: The African church is really where the population of priests 355 00:20:45,119 --> 00:20:45,480 Speaker 1: is growing. 356 00:20:45,600 --> 00:20:49,480 Speaker 2: Yes, well, and that's an interesting condition in Europe that 357 00:20:49,520 --> 00:20:51,320 Speaker 2: we'll have to see how it plays out over the 358 00:20:51,359 --> 00:20:54,040 Speaker 2: next you know, however, many years. But a lot of 359 00:20:54,040 --> 00:20:58,399 Speaker 2: the priests who actually do perish work in France are 360 00:20:58,720 --> 00:21:03,160 Speaker 2: from Africa. They're coming in usually from French speaking portions 361 00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:05,560 Speaker 2: of Africa. And basically the way that it works is 362 00:21:05,720 --> 00:21:09,800 Speaker 2: it's it's like a period of indentured servitude. You know, 363 00:21:09,880 --> 00:21:12,360 Speaker 2: they do their seminary work in France and then they 364 00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:16,040 Speaker 2: have to work on the ground for ten years to 365 00:21:16,400 --> 00:21:17,560 Speaker 2: pay off their seminary. 366 00:21:17,760 --> 00:21:20,520 Speaker 1: That's a great prison term. It's either ten years in 367 00:21:20,600 --> 00:21:23,520 Speaker 1: France or you know, a hard labor whatever comes first. 368 00:21:24,040 --> 00:21:29,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, So I think that, you know, it's very easy 369 00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:36,439 Speaker 2: because the American Church is wealthy, powerful, relatively robust, relatively large, 370 00:21:36,600 --> 00:21:39,160 Speaker 2: it's sort of easy to project the way we see 371 00:21:39,200 --> 00:21:43,199 Speaker 2: things onto the way they see things at Rome. But 372 00:21:43,520 --> 00:21:47,080 Speaker 2: despite the composition of the current you know, weirdness of 373 00:21:47,119 --> 00:21:50,639 Speaker 2: how the current set of cardinals is composed, which I 374 00:21:50,640 --> 00:21:53,600 Speaker 2: think will probably talk about in the moment, they are 375 00:21:53,640 --> 00:21:59,639 Speaker 2: still primarily European, like the plurality is still from Catholic Europe. 376 00:22:01,240 --> 00:22:04,600 Speaker 1: They are, and Italy has the single largest country representation. 377 00:22:04,880 --> 00:22:13,040 Speaker 5: Yes, as not intended, but as three Italians, three Italians 378 00:22:13,080 --> 00:22:17,240 Speaker 5: talk about global representation, that's well, and this. 379 00:22:17,240 --> 00:22:19,040 Speaker 2: Is actually this is actually a very good segue to 380 00:22:19,080 --> 00:22:21,200 Speaker 2: talk about the other thing that I think is worth 381 00:22:21,880 --> 00:22:25,600 Speaker 2: keeping in mind, which people who don't you know, doggedly 382 00:22:25,680 --> 00:22:29,440 Speaker 2: follow Vatican politics, which is say, like normal healthy, well 383 00:22:29,440 --> 00:22:33,439 Speaker 2: adjusted people don't necessarily account for, which is that this 384 00:22:33,560 --> 00:22:37,680 Speaker 2: is a political process, and as in any political process, 385 00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:43,560 Speaker 2: what dominates our particular real material interest. 386 00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:44,320 Speaker 1: Right. 387 00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:49,320 Speaker 2: The reason that the Italians have a disproportionate say and 388 00:22:49,359 --> 00:22:52,600 Speaker 2: what happens is they are the guys right there in Rome. 389 00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:55,199 Speaker 2: They are the ones who actually have to run the 390 00:22:55,240 --> 00:22:56,119 Speaker 2: central Church. 391 00:22:56,680 --> 00:22:56,800 Speaker 4: Uh. 392 00:22:57,080 --> 00:23:00,000 Speaker 2: It is a very wealthy church in Italy for very 393 00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:05,040 Speaker 2: historical reasons. And so they get a bigger say than 394 00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:08,919 Speaker 2: the Africans do. Because the Africans, even though they have 395 00:23:08,960 --> 00:23:10,879 Speaker 2: a lot of people, and you know, they have a 396 00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:13,600 Speaker 2: lot of puts and fuse, Uh, they've got no money. 397 00:23:13,800 --> 00:23:17,000 Speaker 2: They've got very little sort of infrastructure as far as 398 00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:20,320 Speaker 2: like orders that have assets to go and then go 399 00:23:20,359 --> 00:23:23,840 Speaker 2: out and do things elsewhere. They are becoming stronger because 400 00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:26,000 Speaker 2: of programmers like we talked about, you know where they 401 00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:30,000 Speaker 2: go and are actually supplying the manpower for out of 402 00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:36,199 Speaker 2: these sailing you know, core Catholic territories. But they you know, 403 00:23:36,320 --> 00:23:40,320 Speaker 2: they are not strong, uh, institutionally yet. 404 00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:43,520 Speaker 1: So I want it ton't just go to who could 405 00:23:43,560 --> 00:23:47,160 Speaker 1: possibly be his successor, because this is what everyone wants 406 00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:49,800 Speaker 1: to know, Not that we have special insight to it, 407 00:23:49,840 --> 00:23:53,320 Speaker 1: but I think there is some logical people that you know, 408 00:23:53,800 --> 00:23:57,320 Speaker 1: if you spend time online, especially to non Catholics who 409 00:23:57,359 --> 00:23:59,520 Speaker 1: want to get clicks, they share a lot about Cardinal Sarah. 410 00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:01,760 Speaker 1: And I'm a big fan of Cardinal Sarah. But he's 411 00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:04,119 Speaker 1: too old and too conservative for the position. 412 00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:07,639 Speaker 2: I actually think that his age counts for him. I 413 00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:10,560 Speaker 2: don't think we're going to I don't think he's too. 414 00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:16,040 Speaker 1: Conservative and too contrarian for the position. A great admirer 415 00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:17,800 Speaker 1: of his, I think he's if you don't know who 416 00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:20,919 Speaker 1: he is, Cardinal Robert Sarah. He's an African cardinal. His 417 00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:25,520 Speaker 1: writing is beautiful and smart and very intelligent and very profound, 418 00:24:25,560 --> 00:24:27,280 Speaker 1: and you could read him. But I just think, is 419 00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:31,119 Speaker 1: there are I'm going to read some some names and 420 00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:32,800 Speaker 1: then we'll just talk about I don't have any of 421 00:24:32,840 --> 00:24:34,840 Speaker 1: the names, and and if somebody else you know, let 422 00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:37,719 Speaker 1: me know. There are the leading contenders, according to the media, 423 00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:40,199 Speaker 1: which take it for it, was was Peter Ardou, the 424 00:24:40,240 --> 00:24:44,480 Speaker 1: cardinal from Hungary. UH fre Dolan m Bongo from Dominic 425 00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:49,440 Speaker 1: from Congo, Mario Gresh from Malta, Pietro Parali from He's 426 00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:54,080 Speaker 1: the He's the Vatican's Secretary of State, Luis Tangali from 427 00:24:54,119 --> 00:24:57,960 Speaker 1: the Philippines. And Pizza Bala, who is Italian but is 428 00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:02,640 Speaker 1: from the Italian Aires from he represents like Israel, right, 429 00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:10,359 Speaker 1: that's okay, yeah, okay. So and any of those the 430 00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:13,080 Speaker 1: leading contenders in your opinion? Is there any and is 431 00:25:13,119 --> 00:25:16,080 Speaker 1: any of them a transformational person? I know there's a 432 00:25:16,119 --> 00:25:18,480 Speaker 1: lot of interest behind Pizza Bola, first for his name, 433 00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:20,520 Speaker 1: but two because I mean he did do a very 434 00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:23,359 Speaker 1: heroic thing, which was he did offer his life for 435 00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:26,920 Speaker 1: that of the hostages, which is more than you can 436 00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:32,080 Speaker 1: say from some people doing something bold and saintly almost 437 00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:36,760 Speaker 1: in today's day and age. But Emily, do you is 438 00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:39,520 Speaker 1: there anyone that you personally would love to see? And 439 00:25:39,560 --> 00:25:43,119 Speaker 1: then two I would likely you know, guess is the 440 00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:43,960 Speaker 1: leading contender. 441 00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:50,000 Speaker 3: My family is deeply involved with Pizza Bala, largely because 442 00:25:50,040 --> 00:25:52,760 Speaker 3: my husband and that Night of the Holy Supplies of 443 00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:55,600 Speaker 3: People Knights or Cardinal Pizza Bala has been at the 444 00:25:55,600 --> 00:25:58,080 Speaker 3: head of that organization for a long time. 445 00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:00,879 Speaker 4: So I am a big fan. 446 00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:06,320 Speaker 3: I do think he is an interesting story in opposite 447 00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:08,560 Speaker 3: very much of Latin. 448 00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:11,320 Speaker 4: You know, he's very tolerant of the Latin mask. He's 449 00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:12,800 Speaker 4: very much. 450 00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:17,800 Speaker 3: More of a conservative in those terms, but then also 451 00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:22,560 Speaker 3: very worldly. He's very good at being at the forefront 452 00:26:22,600 --> 00:26:25,679 Speaker 3: a foreign conflict, which you know he's been in the 453 00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:27,520 Speaker 3: center of in. 454 00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:28,000 Speaker 4: A good way. 455 00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:38,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, he's been a foreign not a bad one. 456 00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:44,200 Speaker 3: It would be most worried about someone like Taglely or Parolin. 457 00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:48,639 Speaker 4: I think Carolin is. Yeah, Taglely is very progressive. 458 00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:50,879 Speaker 3: I do not think he's in the front running, simply 459 00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:55,000 Speaker 3: because even Pope Francis kicked him out of a high 460 00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:58,360 Speaker 3: level job at Carrie Task, which is one of the 461 00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:02,800 Speaker 3: service organizations with social organizations within the Church. He was 462 00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:04,960 Speaker 3: booted out of there by Francis, so he was not 463 00:27:05,560 --> 00:27:09,080 Speaker 3: popular even with that wing of the Vatican. 464 00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:12,120 Speaker 4: Herolan is certainly a possibility. 465 00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:16,119 Speaker 3: He's certainly done quite a bit of public work, but 466 00:27:16,280 --> 00:27:19,719 Speaker 3: in the last couple of days he's also seemingly turned 467 00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:23,840 Speaker 3: everybody off and then had a medical emergency, So I 468 00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:24,320 Speaker 3: feel like. 469 00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:27,280 Speaker 4: Whatever he may have been at the top, he is 470 00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:32,000 Speaker 4: no longer. So it's also anybody's game. 471 00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:35,560 Speaker 3: We've had situations in the past that, you know, the 472 00:27:35,560 --> 00:27:38,200 Speaker 3: Holy Spirit has descended on somebody in Saint Peter's square 473 00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:40,880 Speaker 3: and they're like, oh, hey, yes, you're the Pope now. 474 00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:45,320 Speaker 3: It is entirely possible that someone could come out. 475 00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:45,840 Speaker 4: Of left field. 476 00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:49,000 Speaker 3: We all thought hope Francis had come out of left field, 477 00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:50,639 Speaker 3: but he was sort of working his way up the 478 00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:55,960 Speaker 3: ranks for a long time. I wouldn't anticipate that we're 479 00:27:55,960 --> 00:27:58,720 Speaker 3: going to get any real surprises here. But it really 480 00:27:58,760 --> 00:27:59,560 Speaker 3: is anybody's game. 481 00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:02,359 Speaker 1: It's not going to be some some pastor from the 482 00:28:02,359 --> 00:28:06,119 Speaker 1: middle of Kansas who is that's all of a sudden nominated. 483 00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:10,280 Speaker 1: It's not a Disney movie. Jude, what do you do? 484 00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:12,400 Speaker 1: I know you had a thumbs up for Pizza Ball 485 00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:16,000 Speaker 1: as well. Why do you like him? And who else 486 00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:18,560 Speaker 1: do you see as a leading contender? He's very like 487 00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:22,919 Speaker 1: pro migrant stuff, right, do I have that correct? Okay? 488 00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:26,520 Speaker 1: Kind of, so you're. 489 00:28:26,359 --> 00:28:28,399 Speaker 3: Not going to get away from like they're all going 490 00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:29,760 Speaker 3: to be a little pro migrant. 491 00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:34,520 Speaker 1: Ardo Is from Hungary is very much not pro migrant. 492 00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:39,120 Speaker 1: Neither is Carlils either from Africa anyway, But go ahead, Jude, Sorry. 493 00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:43,959 Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I think that so. Uh. As I said, 494 00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:46,160 Speaker 2: as you were talking about, there are sort of material 495 00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:51,280 Speaker 2: conditions of the election, right, the sort of regime analysis 496 00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:56,080 Speaker 2: of the Francis years is that this was a disco. Uh, 497 00:28:56,160 --> 00:29:02,120 Speaker 2: there was constant institutional reorganization. The Vatican is pretty much broke, 498 00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:06,560 Speaker 2: like nobody really wants to talk about it, but you know, 499 00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:08,920 Speaker 2: there is a reason that people who try to audit 500 00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:13,680 Speaker 2: the Vatican keep getting like shuffled off the scene, and 501 00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:17,680 Speaker 2: the whole system works pretty badly when you have institutional 502 00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:21,320 Speaker 2: chaos and no money. So I think that uh, Pizza 503 00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:24,840 Speaker 2: Bala and some of the other front runners have a 504 00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:30,640 Speaker 2: compelling case to make that they're administrators. First, they will 505 00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:34,320 Speaker 2: get the fisk in order they will stop this, you know, 506 00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:41,160 Speaker 2: constant reconstitution of Rome, the Roman Court into dicastrees, you know, 507 00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:46,160 Speaker 2: changing the heads of congregations or departments, you know, on 508 00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:53,360 Speaker 2: a constant rolling basis. Uh. So, I think that he 509 00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:56,280 Speaker 2: has not unlike a lot of the sort of dophins 510 00:29:56,360 --> 00:30:00,520 Speaker 2: of the Francis era, including Prolyn and including Togle, he 511 00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:03,840 Speaker 2: does not. He was not associated with any really high 512 00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:10,760 Speaker 2: profile wonders. So what counts against Perlin is that he 513 00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:15,880 Speaker 2: was instrumental in the Vaticans deal with the Chinese Communist 514 00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:19,120 Speaker 2: Party to try to bring the church out from the 515 00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:25,760 Speaker 2: underground in China, which was a huge catastrophic failure and 516 00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:30,880 Speaker 2: was extremely embarrassing for everybody involved. So Proolin. The problem 517 00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:34,280 Speaker 2: is he can't really detach himself from France's failed policies 518 00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:37,000 Speaker 2: because he is such a Francis guy. People are going 519 00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:39,840 Speaker 2: to say, it's going to be more of the show 520 00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:43,800 Speaker 2: that we've had for twelve seasons. Nobody wants that. Whereas 521 00:30:43,840 --> 00:30:47,360 Speaker 2: Pizza Baba has sort of kept his nose clean, he 522 00:30:47,520 --> 00:30:51,920 Speaker 2: doesn't have, you know, extremely overt ideological commitments that are 523 00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:58,520 Speaker 2: going to turn anyone off. And he's young, I actually 524 00:30:58,560 --> 00:30:59,680 Speaker 2: think counts against him. 525 00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:02,800 Speaker 1: In his forties or fifties. 526 00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:05,560 Speaker 2: I think that he's sixty two, I. 527 00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:09,800 Speaker 4: Would still really realize, which is young for yes, Okay, so. 528 00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:14,520 Speaker 1: In the sixties, I'm doing really good in my research. 529 00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:20,080 Speaker 2: While he's while he's you know, he's remembered for this 530 00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:24,640 Speaker 2: sort of courageous act. He's also been critical of Israel's 531 00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:29,240 Speaker 2: war in Gaza, which you know is actually a fairly 532 00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:33,040 Speaker 2: popular position in the world, even in the United States, 533 00:31:33,080 --> 00:31:36,959 Speaker 2: which is the most pro Israel country. Support for Israel 534 00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:39,520 Speaker 2: has created twenty points over the past two years. 535 00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:44,560 Speaker 1: Here's my, my, my, my attention towards him as this. 536 00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:46,440 Speaker 1: And I reached out to something when Ireland had their 537 00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:49,400 Speaker 1: vote to legalize abortion. I reached out to someone I 538 00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:51,320 Speaker 1: know who worked for the Vatican, said why isn't the 539 00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:53,720 Speaker 1: Pope going there? And they said, well, he'll be laughed 540 00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:55,920 Speaker 1: out of the country. And I said, and Peter was 541 00:31:55,960 --> 00:31:59,120 Speaker 1: hung upside down on a cross. And you're being laughed 542 00:31:59,120 --> 00:32:02,640 Speaker 1: out of a country. If you're going to be the 543 00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:06,920 Speaker 1: moral authority for one point four billion people and have 544 00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:10,520 Speaker 1: to show something. I mean, I don't know the man 545 00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:14,080 Speaker 1: at all, but I do believe if let's say Hama said, sure, 546 00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:16,360 Speaker 1: you're going to step in for all these hostages, I 547 00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:18,680 Speaker 1: think he would have stepped in and offered his life. 548 00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:22,720 Speaker 1: That is a tremendously courageous, brave thing to do that 549 00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:26,360 Speaker 1: you don't see not only in regular life, but you 550 00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:28,280 Speaker 1: don't see from a lot of leaders, and a lot 551 00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:30,160 Speaker 1: of leaders, a lot of leaders in the world won't 552 00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:33,120 Speaker 1: even put their kids in the military, you know, in 553 00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:36,960 Speaker 1: a time of peace, let alone put that any And you. 554 00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:40,040 Speaker 3: Have to remember that his constituency is the Christians in 555 00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:43,840 Speaker 3: the Holy Land, which are not welcome really in Gaza, 556 00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:45,720 Speaker 3: but they're also not welcome. 557 00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:49,760 Speaker 4: Really in Jerusalem. So he has a really difficult position. 558 00:32:49,840 --> 00:32:53,960 Speaker 3: And he was very good at articulating where he fell, 559 00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:57,880 Speaker 3: who he was there representing. And there's a lot of 560 00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:03,080 Speaker 3: talk about continuing on and francis Is legacy in peacemaking. 561 00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:08,600 Speaker 3: He stayed in Gaza with his constituency for a lot 562 00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:11,960 Speaker 3: of time and bombs are falling on him. I mean, 563 00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:14,880 Speaker 3: the church in Jerusalem was a last recue, or the 564 00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:18,120 Speaker 3: church in Gaza was the last recues for Christians in 565 00:33:18,160 --> 00:33:18,840 Speaker 3: that area. 566 00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:22,200 Speaker 4: And he spoke regularly to Pope Francis. 567 00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:25,000 Speaker 3: And so when you talk about the legacy of France's 568 00:33:25,040 --> 00:33:27,760 Speaker 3: tearing on, he has an argument to make that he 569 00:33:27,960 --> 00:33:31,640 Speaker 3: was there at the forefront of some of the biggest conflicts, 570 00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:35,520 Speaker 3: or in the biggest conflict in the modern era, and 571 00:33:35,560 --> 00:33:37,520 Speaker 3: he stayed in the middle of it and he managed it. 572 00:33:37,680 --> 00:33:39,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's a great point. I mean, that's why 573 00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:41,920 Speaker 1: a lot of love was given to the British royal 574 00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:44,280 Speaker 1: family who stayed in London while the bombs were falling. 575 00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:46,880 Speaker 1: I guess it's a good it's a good analogy. I 576 00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:48,920 Speaker 1: have to have to close up the interview, Jude, if 577 00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:52,120 Speaker 1: there's anything else besides pizza Bala, is there anybody else 578 00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:55,320 Speaker 1: that you would you would envisioned as a leading contender? 579 00:33:55,560 --> 00:33:59,200 Speaker 2: Well as already mentioned, I think that Carolin is pretty 580 00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:03,440 Speaker 2: much cute. I think Arado has a better chance than 581 00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:06,680 Speaker 2: any of the other so conservative candidates because he has 582 00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:10,000 Speaker 2: been a good administrator. He was a good soldier during 583 00:34:10,040 --> 00:34:13,839 Speaker 2: the amorris Ley Titsi clown show, which you know has 584 00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:17,160 Speaker 2: been forgotten amid all the other clown shows of the 585 00:34:17,239 --> 00:34:22,920 Speaker 2: past twelve years. Zupi is somebody we have not mentioned 586 00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:31,080 Speaker 2: who is He's the patriarch of Milan. He has a 587 00:34:31,080 --> 00:34:36,080 Speaker 2: compelling non a case for being an administrator. He's non ideological. 588 00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:40,000 Speaker 2: He also sort of weirdly got a lot of USAID money. 589 00:34:41,200 --> 00:34:45,560 Speaker 2: So when we talk about external pressure groups on the church, 590 00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:48,440 Speaker 2: you know, I think that the State Department, at least 591 00:34:48,480 --> 00:34:54,319 Speaker 2: circa twenty twenty two anointed its man. So I think 592 00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:57,360 Speaker 2: that he sort of has a compelling argument to be 593 00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:01,759 Speaker 2: the ideological deton candidate. He gets along with both the 594 00:35:01,840 --> 00:35:06,560 Speaker 2: Days and the Latin Mass weirdos. He has run a 595 00:35:06,640 --> 00:35:12,280 Speaker 2: very large charity organization. He's like Francis but also actually 596 00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:15,600 Speaker 2: gets along with people. He's Italian, which counts for him. 597 00:35:16,360 --> 00:35:21,000 Speaker 2: He's not grotesquely aged, but also not too young either, 598 00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:25,279 Speaker 2: So I think you'd be if you're looking for, you know, 599 00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:28,360 Speaker 2: the sort of if you're a degenerate and you're looking 600 00:35:28,360 --> 00:35:33,879 Speaker 2: for the most mishandicapped that you could make. 601 00:35:34,680 --> 00:35:39,759 Speaker 1: Yeah, you're a gambled hope, which I recommend, but I'm 602 00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:44,319 Speaker 1: sure I'm sure a betting market for it. Guys. Thank 603 00:35:44,360 --> 00:35:46,279 Speaker 1: you both for being here so much. This has been 604 00:35:46,280 --> 00:35:49,400 Speaker 1: a lot of fun, definitely not the usual podcast for listeners. 605 00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:51,840 Speaker 1: You got everything from the papal tries and effect to 606 00:35:52,520 --> 00:35:57,799 Speaker 1: different conspiracies, the State Department in the room, Emily. Where 607 00:35:57,800 --> 00:35:59,560 Speaker 1: can people go to get your stuff? They want to 608 00:35:59,560 --> 00:36:00,120 Speaker 1: read more from you? 609 00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:01,360 Speaker 4: If they want to read more from me? 610 00:36:01,440 --> 00:36:06,000 Speaker 3: Twitter is the easiest place, or ex Zinati Ean Sinnati 611 00:36:06,080 --> 00:36:08,320 Speaker 3: on x and on sub I'm. 612 00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:11,040 Speaker 1: Jude American conservaive magazine where people go on your social. 613 00:36:10,840 --> 00:36:15,160 Speaker 2: Media, that's right. The American Conservative is the real place 614 00:36:15,160 --> 00:36:18,640 Speaker 2: where the important stuff happens. Twitter is where I retweet 615 00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:23,279 Speaker 2: pictures from frogging and toad uh so, But yeah, The 616 00:36:23,320 --> 00:36:26,920 Speaker 2: American Conservative, which is a great magazine has contributors like 617 00:36:27,000 --> 00:36:32,360 Speaker 2: Ryan gr Dusky. Yeah, so you know everybay Please go read, subscribe, donate, 618 00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:34,440 Speaker 2: do your thing, share our articles. 619 00:36:34,920 --> 00:36:37,839 Speaker 1: Great. All right, thank you guys so much for being 620 00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:41,719 Speaker 1: on here and this is awesome. Thank you. Thanks Ryan, 621 00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:44,719 Speaker 1: you're listening to It's a Numbers Game with Ryan Gradsky. 622 00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:50,800 Speaker 1: We'll be right back, okay for our ask Me Anything 623 00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:52,279 Speaker 1: segment and if you want to be part of it, 624 00:36:52,360 --> 00:36:57,920 Speaker 1: please send me an email on questions about politics, you know, culture, entertainment, anything, 625 00:36:57,960 --> 00:36:59,440 Speaker 1: and I would love to sit there and talk to 626 00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:02,640 Speaker 1: you about it. Email me Ryan at Numbers Game Podcast 627 00:37:02,719 --> 00:37:05,960 Speaker 1: dot com. That's Ryan at Numbers Plural Numbers Game podcast 628 00:37:06,160 --> 00:37:08,560 Speaker 1: dot com and send me some questions and I would 629 00:37:08,560 --> 00:37:09,839 Speaker 1: love to sit there and bring them on the show. 630 00:37:09,880 --> 00:37:13,960 Speaker 1: I got a odd question from a listener who said, 631 00:37:14,120 --> 00:37:16,080 Speaker 1: you mentioned that you went to see the Rolling Stones 632 00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:17,759 Speaker 1: when you were a teenager and smoke the worst part 633 00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:21,080 Speaker 1: of your life, which is true. I did, what musical 634 00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:23,680 Speaker 1: act would you see if you that is no longer 635 00:37:23,680 --> 00:37:26,040 Speaker 1: with us. I guess that is dead dead singer. I 636 00:37:26,080 --> 00:37:30,920 Speaker 1: would like to see Jennis Joplin, Elvis Presley, James Brown 637 00:37:31,000 --> 00:37:34,560 Speaker 1: or Amy Winehouse probably would be one of them. If 638 00:37:34,600 --> 00:37:37,080 Speaker 1: I'm in the mood for jazz, I guess either Monk 639 00:37:37,239 --> 00:37:39,279 Speaker 1: or Chad Baker or something of that, because I do 640 00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:43,280 Speaker 1: love jazz, but that would be it cool question interesting. 641 00:37:43,840 --> 00:37:46,200 Speaker 1: Loved it. If you like this podcast, please like and 642 00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:49,839 Speaker 1: subscribe on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, wherever you listen 643 00:37:49,880 --> 00:37:51,920 Speaker 1: to your podcasts. Give us a five star review if 644 00:37:51,960 --> 00:37:54,520 Speaker 1: you're feeling generous, and I will speak to you all 645 00:37:54,600 --> 00:37:56,760 Speaker 1: on Thursday. Thank you.