WEBVTT - The VW Scandal 0:00:04.200 --> 0:00:07.560 Get in technic technology with tech Stuff from Half Stuff. 0:00:12.200 --> 0:00:14.600 Hey there everybody, and welcome to Tech Stuff. I am 0:00:14.720 --> 0:00:18.239 Jonathan Strickland and joining me once again half of the 0:00:18.280 --> 0:00:21.439 Amazing Car Stuff team. Scott, Benjamin, welcome back to the show. 0:00:21.520 --> 0:00:23.960 How do everybody? Scott, It's great to have you here. 0:00:24.000 --> 0:00:26.960 We just finished recording a show. I think these are 0:00:26.960 --> 0:00:29.280 actually gonna play out of sequence. But I just finished 0:00:29.280 --> 0:00:32.240 recording a show with your co host Ben Bolan, who 0:00:32.560 --> 0:00:37.120 was spectacular, So I I expect you will do no 0:00:37.360 --> 0:00:42.640 less in this episode. The pressure is on. But unlike 0:00:42.720 --> 0:00:46.440 Ben's Ben, Ben didn't have to prepare anything. I specifically 0:00:46.440 --> 0:00:49.839 told him not to prepare, whereas you, uh, fortunately have 0:00:49.920 --> 0:00:51.960 talked a lot about this particular topic. We are going 0:00:52.000 --> 0:00:57.400 to talk about the Volkswagen scandal. What happened, uh, what 0:00:57.440 --> 0:01:01.560 the actual technical details are. Maybe get some information about 0:01:01.560 --> 0:01:04.040 diesel versus gasoline cars, you know, kind of get an 0:01:04.120 --> 0:01:08.160 understanding of what exactly happened and what will what what 0:01:08.280 --> 0:01:12.440 the fallout is looking like so far? And spoiler alert, folks, 0:01:13.120 --> 0:01:16.280 this is an ongoing story. It's not like we have 0:01:16.280 --> 0:01:18.880 an end where we can say, and then they were 0:01:18.959 --> 0:01:21.960 charged this much money and find no exactly, because even 0:01:22.000 --> 0:01:24.640 now with the fixed information that we we now have 0:01:24.760 --> 0:01:27.200 that we just got a few days ago, there are 0:01:27.200 --> 0:01:30.120 still some unanswered questions in this in this fixed plan, 0:01:30.800 --> 0:01:33.399 they say they've got the plan, but they're not quite 0:01:33.400 --> 0:01:35.080 exactly telling us what they're going to do with it. 0:01:35.160 --> 0:01:38.920 And only that, but they've also recently announced a a 0:01:39.160 --> 0:01:45.200 different emissions possible subterfuge trick thing that's going to be 0:01:45.200 --> 0:01:47.000 in the two thousands, or was supposed to be in 0:01:47.000 --> 0:01:49.960 the two thousand and sixteen models, which currently are not 0:01:50.520 --> 0:01:53.760 available here in the United States. They're quarantined at US ports. 0:01:53.840 --> 0:01:57.440 Right there's a hold on all sales of Volkswagen diesel 0:01:57.520 --> 0:02:02.280 vehicles from and some yours are being held back. You 0:02:02.320 --> 0:02:05.559 can't get one right now exactly. And I'll talk about 0:02:05.600 --> 0:02:12.080 what that particular possibly shady technology does. But before we 0:02:12.080 --> 0:02:14.280 get into that, one of the things I wanted to 0:02:14.680 --> 0:02:17.640 do is kind of lay the groundwork. I usually take 0:02:17.720 --> 0:02:19.839 the first part of any episode to kind of talk 0:02:19.919 --> 0:02:23.680 about what what were the conditions that led up to 0:02:23.760 --> 0:02:25.919 this point, and really to look at this one. I 0:02:26.000 --> 0:02:29.640 wanted to go way way way back, all right, because 0:02:30.720 --> 0:02:34.120 I wanted to talk about the conditions that led up 0:02:34.160 --> 0:02:36.919 to things like the Clean Air Act. So in order 0:02:36.960 --> 0:02:39.480 to do that, you have to look at the dependence 0:02:39.560 --> 0:02:43.240 upon the internal combustion engine as the primary means of 0:02:43.360 --> 0:02:47.600 powering vehicles. Now, Scott, I know you are very well 0:02:47.639 --> 0:02:54.200 aware that electric vehicles proceeded internal combustion vehicles. Their electric 0:02:54.240 --> 0:02:59.639 cars were around before we had and internal combustion cars. Yes, yes, 0:03:00.160 --> 0:03:04.120 they were in fact very prevalent. I mean taxi taxi 0:03:04.480 --> 0:03:07.720 companies operated on all electric platforms at a certain point 0:03:07.720 --> 0:03:09.959 in history. You can look at photographs of New York 0:03:09.960 --> 0:03:11.480 and I don't know, we're talking to turn of the 0:03:11.480 --> 0:03:15.520 century stuff, the turn of the twentieth century, where you know, 0:03:15.560 --> 0:03:17.520 it's all every car that you see in the shot 0:03:17.639 --> 0:03:19.880 is all electric. Um. Yeah, there was a point when 0:03:19.919 --> 0:03:21.800 there were far more electric vehicles on the road than 0:03:21.800 --> 0:03:25.600 there were gasoline vehicles. And they were efficient, they were fast. 0:03:25.720 --> 0:03:29.560 One thing they were not was they didn't have incredibly 0:03:29.600 --> 0:03:32.720 long driving ranges. But at first that didn't really matter. 0:03:33.040 --> 0:03:35.160 And the reason it didn't matter is because with the 0:03:35.160 --> 0:03:38.160 development of the automobile also came the development of the 0:03:38.240 --> 0:03:41.160 road system in the United States. So here in the US, 0:03:41.200 --> 0:03:44.960 at least, the place you were most likely to encounter 0:03:45.160 --> 0:03:47.840 roads that were suitable for driving on were in cities, 0:03:48.160 --> 0:03:50.240 which meant that your driving range didn't have to be 0:03:50.280 --> 0:03:52.920 that far. You weren't doing miles and miles of driving 0:03:53.520 --> 0:03:55.680 every single day. You might be doing a few miles 0:03:55.680 --> 0:03:58.360 of driving, which was important for electric vehicles because there 0:03:58.400 --> 0:04:01.240 was no real way to recharge once you hit the road. Yeah. 0:04:01.240 --> 0:04:04.440 In fact, they had the uh, the the original idea. 0:04:04.480 --> 0:04:06.440 I guess you know where Tesla is getting his battery 0:04:06.440 --> 0:04:10.400 swap idea from. I'm sorry, Mosco. I guess I always 0:04:10.400 --> 0:04:12.560 refer to him as Tesla, but that's not correct. Of course, 0:04:12.600 --> 0:04:16.600 I'm sure he would love that. Actually, well, the Tesla, 0:04:16.760 --> 0:04:19.640 the Tesla models that are proposing that, you know, they'll 0:04:19.680 --> 0:04:22.520 be these battery swap situations where you can drive up 0:04:22.520 --> 0:04:25.480 and leave your old battery, pick up a brand new one. 0:04:25.520 --> 0:04:27.720 So that's a quick change, a relative quick change, and 0:04:27.760 --> 0:04:29.600 then you're on your way and you have to return 0:04:29.680 --> 0:04:32.320 for that battery. Uh you know, it's like a rental almost, 0:04:32.560 --> 0:04:34.600 you have to come back and get it. But uh, 0:04:34.640 --> 0:04:37.400 that idea is nothing brand new. Of course, these these 0:04:37.400 --> 0:04:39.400 old taxis that I'm talking about would drive into a 0:04:39.400 --> 0:04:41.160 station and they would swap the batteries and they're back 0:04:41.200 --> 0:04:43.200 out on the road to collect the next fair. It 0:04:43.240 --> 0:04:45.680 had as little downtime as possible. Yeah, and they ran 0:04:45.800 --> 0:04:48.320 constantly around the clock, but you know they were constantly 0:04:48.360 --> 0:04:51.320 getting new batteries as well. Right. And if you look 0:04:51.320 --> 0:04:53.320 at the development of the roads. Once we got to 0:04:53.360 --> 0:04:56.200 a point where roads were being built out beyond the cities, 0:04:56.560 --> 0:04:59.520 where they were connecting different cities together, a lot of 0:04:59.560 --> 0:05:02.440 people had the desire to travel those roads. The roads 0:05:02.440 --> 0:05:04.599 were there by necessity, but now people are like, I 0:05:04.640 --> 0:05:07.440 have an opportunity to go places I couldn't go before. 0:05:08.240 --> 0:05:10.400 But the problem was the electric vehicles weren't the vehicles 0:05:10.440 --> 0:05:12.719 that could get them there, because if it was further 0:05:12.760 --> 0:05:15.080 away than say eighteen miles, you weren't going to reach 0:05:15.120 --> 0:05:18.440 your destination. So the internal combustion engine had an advantage 0:05:18.440 --> 0:05:20.599 over that, and that you could have fueling stations along 0:05:20.600 --> 0:05:23.919 the way. And the other huge advantage was because Henry 0:05:23.920 --> 0:05:27.560 Ford figured out how to do mass production, and through 0:05:27.600 --> 0:05:31.159 mass production they were able to dramatically reduce the price 0:05:31.839 --> 0:05:35.640 of a vehicle. So a an internal combustion engine car 0:05:35.760 --> 0:05:38.520 cost about a third of what an electric vehicle did. 0:05:38.960 --> 0:05:43.360 So you have this mass adoption of the internal combustion engine. Now, 0:05:43.400 --> 0:05:45.719 this is why, the reason why I even lay that 0:05:45.760 --> 0:05:49.680 groundwork is as the United States in particular becomes a 0:05:49.760 --> 0:05:53.720 car culture, and as more and more people start driving 0:05:54.320 --> 0:05:57.680 vehicles that use internal combustion, you have more and more 0:05:58.040 --> 0:06:02.599 emissions from those vehicles, and it begins to accumulate over time. 0:06:03.080 --> 0:06:05.320 And depending upon the type of fuel you're using, if 0:06:05.360 --> 0:06:10.080 it's diesel, you get a lot of emissions that contribute 0:06:10.080 --> 0:06:14.000 to smog. And then we start seeing super smoggy cities 0:06:14.040 --> 0:06:16.359 in different parts of the country. And by the nineteen 0:06:16.400 --> 0:06:20.240 fifties and nineteen sixties, you had people concerned about the 0:06:20.279 --> 0:06:24.479 quality of air. True, and the cities are inherently bad 0:06:24.480 --> 0:06:27.600 about this because they containe, they capture all this, they 0:06:27.640 --> 0:06:30.200 get it all in place. And not only that, but 0:06:30.279 --> 0:06:34.360 you've also got some cities that geographically kind of hold 0:06:34.360 --> 0:06:36.880 on to that material it's expelled from these vehicles. Los 0:06:36.960 --> 0:06:39.919 Angeles is the classic example here in the United States. 0:06:39.920 --> 0:06:42.120 Exactly right. You can look at some old photographs of 0:06:42.240 --> 0:06:45.599 smog in Los Angeles and you can't see buildings. So yeah, 0:06:45.680 --> 0:06:48.000 it's it's like a heavy, heavy fog that hung over 0:06:48.040 --> 0:06:50.840 the city and it eventually blow away. It would it 0:06:50.880 --> 0:06:53.919 would go away, but um you know, not long you know, 0:06:54.000 --> 0:06:55.680 not long after it blows out of there, it would 0:06:55.720 --> 0:06:57.800 come right back again because there are so many vehicles 0:06:57.800 --> 0:07:00.960 that were emitting so many um uh you know, bad 0:07:01.000 --> 0:07:04.240 things for the environment. But the noxious gases, right, yeah, 0:07:04.240 --> 0:07:07.320 stuff that was bad for the environment. It could cause 0:07:07.360 --> 0:07:10.840 health issues if if it was really like if it's 0:07:10.840 --> 0:07:14.080 a really smoggy day to this day, in certain cities, 0:07:14.160 --> 0:07:17.040 when it's really smoggy, you will hear warnings on the news, 0:07:17.120 --> 0:07:21.160 like limit your amount of time outdoors, especially on hot 0:07:21.240 --> 0:07:24.200 days where it can be aggravated, because it can end 0:07:24.280 --> 0:07:27.600 up either causing or aggravating health issues. Sure, and you 0:07:27.600 --> 0:07:31.440 can see examples of this in China today, really really heavy. 0:07:31.440 --> 0:07:34.040 I mean they're there's still um and in parts of 0:07:34.080 --> 0:07:36.920 Europe too, you know, exactly right, Yeah, there's you can 0:07:36.920 --> 0:07:40.880 look at modern day Beijing and see what you know, 0:07:40.920 --> 0:07:44.480 Los Angeles look like several decades ago here in the States, right, So, 0:07:44.600 --> 0:07:47.440 by the nineteen fifties and nineteen sixties, different regions in 0:07:47.480 --> 0:07:52.000 the US, we're looking at ways of improving air quality 0:07:52.080 --> 0:07:56.040 and limiting pollution. And it was really patchwork, you know, 0:07:56.360 --> 0:08:00.480 for a long time until about nineteen sixties seven. That's 0:08:00.480 --> 0:08:03.320 when the US Congress passed the Air Quality Act. Now 0:08:03.360 --> 0:08:06.120 this was the predecessor to the Clean Air Act. The 0:08:06.200 --> 0:08:09.840 Air Quality Act had a disadvantage in that it was 0:08:09.960 --> 0:08:14.800 meant to have kind of a centralized organization headed by 0:08:14.800 --> 0:08:19.640 the Secretary Secretary of Health, Education, and Welfare to designate 0:08:19.760 --> 0:08:23.760 air quality regions around the United States, and then the 0:08:23.840 --> 0:08:27.840 states that those air quality regions were within were supposed 0:08:27.880 --> 0:08:31.440 to come up with a plan for pollution control. So, 0:08:31.480 --> 0:08:34.679 in other words, the federal government was saying, here are 0:08:34.720 --> 0:08:40.160 the areas we have to be worried about, all right, Georgia, California, Texas. 0:08:40.320 --> 0:08:44.040 You guys take care of those places. And this lack 0:08:44.200 --> 0:08:47.440 of a cohesive approach meant that it was pretty much 0:08:47.559 --> 0:08:51.960 doomed to not meet its its goals. And in fact, 0:08:52.000 --> 0:08:56.120 after three years by they had fewer than thirty six 0:08:56.160 --> 0:09:00.880 regions defined, less than three dozen of the had had 0:09:00.960 --> 0:09:04.360 been defined at all, and no state had any sort 0:09:04.400 --> 0:09:08.640 of pollution control uh comprehensive plan. And so the solution 0:09:08.679 --> 0:09:10.559 then was to bring it all under the control of 0:09:10.600 --> 0:09:13.319 the U. S. Congress. Right, Yes, that was when the 0:09:13.760 --> 0:09:16.480 Congress ray convened and started to say, all right, well, 0:09:16.480 --> 0:09:20.000 this this plan was noble in its intention. We wanted 0:09:20.000 --> 0:09:22.920 to make sure we weren't imposing the federal will on 0:09:22.960 --> 0:09:25.719 the states. But it's not working. So that's where the 0:09:25.760 --> 0:09:28.320 Clean Air Act to tie all this together so that 0:09:28.360 --> 0:09:31.280 you understand what's happening at that particular time. This is 0:09:31.480 --> 0:09:35.440 this is well, well, you know, the I guess the 0:09:35.520 --> 0:09:36.960 term that we're gonna throw around here a little bit 0:09:37.000 --> 0:09:40.360 today maybe as the cafe standards and cafe standards were 0:09:40.440 --> 0:09:44.160 enacted somewhere around nineteen seventy five, I think the regulations. 0:09:44.160 --> 0:09:46.600 These are set of regulations that were enacted by Congress, 0:09:47.080 --> 0:09:49.640 and nineteen seventy five, you're you're talking about like the 0:09:49.679 --> 0:09:53.760 tail end of the arab oil embargo, so that you 0:09:53.760 --> 0:09:56.080 know the fuel crisis. You know where um you see 0:09:56.120 --> 0:09:57.880 the lines of people and you know the no gas 0:09:57.960 --> 0:10:01.040 today rationing and all the rad with the odd even 0:10:01.160 --> 0:10:04.240 system and all that. Um, that is that's the environment 0:10:04.240 --> 0:10:07.080 that we're talking about. Yeah, so this was, um, you know, 0:10:07.240 --> 0:10:09.839 this was a serious situation for multiple reasons. Also in 0:10:09.920 --> 0:10:13.240 nineteen seventy that's when uh, you know, you had the 0:10:13.360 --> 0:10:16.880 introduction of Earth Day. So you had this growing support 0:10:17.040 --> 0:10:22.000 for a conservation and UH and and concern about the environment. Uh. 0:10:22.360 --> 0:10:24.719 In at the same time where you have things like 0:10:24.760 --> 0:10:26.680 the oil crisis. I mean, all this stuff is coming 0:10:26.720 --> 0:10:29.760 to a head. So it's all fueling this. And we were, well, 0:10:29.760 --> 0:10:33.000 we were starting to understand the effects on the human body. Yes, 0:10:33.760 --> 0:10:36.559 just just exactly what that that smog was doing to 0:10:37.040 --> 0:10:39.360 people that are walking around in the next cloud of 0:10:39.360 --> 0:10:42.200 of you know, just awful stuff X in there and saying, hey, 0:10:42.240 --> 0:10:44.720 you know, it's weird. We're seeing a lot more people 0:10:44.760 --> 0:10:47.000 with asthma these days that kind of stuff, or or 0:10:47.080 --> 0:10:50.280 bronchitis or things of that. People are dying of respiratory illness. 0:10:50.679 --> 0:10:53.320 We can't quite put our finger on exactly what's causing it, 0:10:53.400 --> 0:10:56.280 but it's happening frequently and and and even if you 0:10:56.320 --> 0:10:58.280 were to argue that the pollution may not cause it, 0:10:58.280 --> 0:11:02.840 it's certainly exacerbated it. So UH. This ended up creating 0:11:02.880 --> 0:11:05.480 the Cleaner Act, which set the national standards for pollution 0:11:05.520 --> 0:11:08.760 emissions eventually and created a timeline for it, which had 0:11:08.800 --> 0:11:11.800 to be adjusted multiple times because, as it turned out, 0:11:11.800 --> 0:11:16.360 the standards were uh the standards to make the engines 0:11:16.720 --> 0:11:19.199 operate in what had been determined to be a safe 0:11:19.880 --> 0:11:24.440 uh set of parameters meant that manufacturers couldn't find a 0:11:24.480 --> 0:11:28.000 way to meet that and also make a car that worked. 0:11:28.360 --> 0:11:32.560 So so those those um, those goals kept getting pushed. 0:11:32.559 --> 0:11:35.280 There was there were uh they they started to look 0:11:35.320 --> 0:11:38.960 at pushing the deadline back in seven. They pushed it 0:11:38.960 --> 0:11:43.360 back again in um mainly because the technology to create 0:11:43.960 --> 0:11:49.200 something that was able to operate under these standards and 0:11:49.600 --> 0:11:53.200 do its job was not really an achievable goal for 0:11:53.280 --> 0:11:56.040 something that wouldn't cost an astronomical amount of money. And 0:11:56.040 --> 0:11:57.440 you know, one thing that I don't think we've even 0:11:57.480 --> 0:12:00.000 mentioned yet is we say cafe standards that means corporate 0:12:00.000 --> 0:12:03.440 average fuel economy, and that's across the line of vehicles, 0:12:03.440 --> 0:12:05.640 across the whole fleet of vehicles. It's not like one 0:12:05.679 --> 0:12:08.319 particular vehicle has to meet the standard. It has to 0:12:08.360 --> 0:12:11.200 be an average of all vehicles produced. And I know 0:12:11.240 --> 0:12:13.440 there's other there's other stuff that goes into this. There's 0:12:13.520 --> 0:12:15.760 there's this big Vinn diagram that makes this all work. 0:12:15.880 --> 0:12:19.680 But um, the standards are very very uh tough to meet. 0:12:19.800 --> 0:12:21.680 I mean they're they're they're a strict set of set 0:12:21.679 --> 0:12:25.800 of standards that especially the latest round which was UM 0:12:25.800 --> 0:12:28.240 announced and I think it was two thousand eight, all 0:12:28.240 --> 0:12:32.760 the way through the model year, and when manufacturers see 0:12:32.760 --> 0:12:34.839 the list of what they have to meet, the goals 0:12:34.840 --> 0:12:36.440 that they have to meet in order to be in 0:12:36.480 --> 0:12:39.000 compliance with this agreement, to sign this agreement and say, yeah, 0:12:39.000 --> 0:12:41.560 we agree to sell vehicles in the United States, we 0:12:41.600 --> 0:12:44.360 have to meet these goals. Uh. It is a steep 0:12:44.559 --> 0:12:49.199 set of standards. And I find it interesting that looking 0:12:49.240 --> 0:12:52.160 back now, you know the agreement, the initial agreement in 0:12:52.200 --> 0:12:55.679 two thousand eight, UM all those it was very stringent, 0:12:55.760 --> 0:13:00.920 very very tough. UM major auto manufacturer signed that agreement. 0:13:01.320 --> 0:13:04.720 You know, a bit begrudgingly. You know that they say, well, okay, 0:13:04.720 --> 0:13:06.760 we can probably meet these but there's a lot of 0:13:06.760 --> 0:13:10.760 back and forth. Volkswagen and Mercedes Benz had the biggest 0:13:10.760 --> 0:13:13.280 objection to it. And I don't know if Volkswagen ever 0:13:13.360 --> 0:13:16.480 signed that agreement. I I don't know how. I've been 0:13:16.520 --> 0:13:18.480 looking all day trying to find out if they actually 0:13:18.520 --> 0:13:21.160 signed the agreement, but I can only find information that 0:13:21.200 --> 0:13:23.760 goes back into two two th eight where they say 0:13:24.040 --> 0:13:28.040 Volkswagen has as of now not signed this agree. Interesting. Yeah, 0:13:28.080 --> 0:13:30.520 one of those things where you can't find any definitive 0:13:30.640 --> 0:13:33.000 update about whether they did or did not sign. Yeah, 0:13:33.000 --> 0:13:34.840 and the reason was they said that it's UM and 0:13:34.880 --> 0:13:38.080 i'll just paraphrase this is because they said that UM 0:13:38.480 --> 0:13:42.880 it places an unfair, unfairly high burden on passenger cars 0:13:42.880 --> 0:13:46.480 well allowing a greater flexibility to let's say, a heavier 0:13:46.600 --> 0:13:50.560 light truck. So we're saying it's not exactly the way 0:13:50.559 --> 0:13:52.960 that we'd like to see it happen, and it's penalizing 0:13:53.200 --> 0:13:57.360 in all things, penalizing people that make UM passenger vehicles 0:13:57.400 --> 0:14:01.600 with diesel engines. It's not fair to them. Its white 0:14:01.679 --> 0:14:04.920 Mercedes and Volkswagen said, I don't know about this agreement. 0:14:04.920 --> 0:14:07.199 I don't think we're gonna sign it, and I will 0:14:07.200 --> 0:14:09.480 still dig into that and see if they actually ever did. 0:14:09.559 --> 0:14:12.880 But around two eight that was kind of the talk 0:14:12.960 --> 0:14:14.760 around the circles was why is not why is b 0:14:14.920 --> 0:14:17.240 W NET signing this? And you know it's we'll get 0:14:17.320 --> 0:14:20.120 more into the diesel stuff in a minute to explain, 0:14:20.320 --> 0:14:22.960 you know, some of the issues that manufacturers run into, 0:14:23.360 --> 0:14:29.320 like the scandal is pretty awful. That being said, I 0:14:29.400 --> 0:14:34.040 also have at least some sympathy for the difficulty that 0:14:34.160 --> 0:14:38.800 engineers face to make things that are satisfying to drive, 0:14:39.360 --> 0:14:43.360 that operate within the the fuel economy and efficiency that 0:14:43.880 --> 0:14:48.560 is dictated by the government, as well as work within 0:14:48.640 --> 0:14:51.360 the emission standards. Okay, you just said the magic three. There, 0:14:51.560 --> 0:14:54.680 that's the three things. It's it's fuel economy, performance and 0:14:54.720 --> 0:14:58.040 emissions and you can it's have you ever heard the 0:14:58.040 --> 0:15:01.400 phrase you can have it done quickly, you can have 0:15:01.520 --> 0:15:04.400 it done well, or you could have it done cheaply. 0:15:04.440 --> 0:15:06.240 You can pick two out of the three. Yeah, yeah, 0:15:06.240 --> 0:15:08.480 and you're never going to find all three. R Well, 0:15:08.600 --> 0:15:11.240 somehow folks I can manage to do all three with 0:15:11.280 --> 0:15:13.720 their diesel engines back in two thousand. Oh wow, it 0:15:13.840 --> 0:15:16.760 was magical too, as it turns out. But before we 0:15:16.840 --> 0:15:18.800 jump ahead to that a little bit more just to 0:15:19.000 --> 0:15:22.520 kind of cover our bases, uh, The Environmental Protection Agency 0:15:22.640 --> 0:15:24.480 has given been given a lot of control as well 0:15:24.520 --> 0:15:26.960 when it comes to the emission standards. They were able 0:15:27.000 --> 0:15:30.120 to establish the National Ambient Air Quality Standards or in 0:15:30.240 --> 0:15:33.520 a a q S. The next I gotta say, that's 0:15:33.520 --> 0:15:35.160 a new one to me. Yeah, that's the one that 0:15:35.280 --> 0:15:37.360 where the deadline had been extended a couple of times, 0:15:37.360 --> 0:15:39.560 Like where where it was clear the states could not 0:15:39.680 --> 0:15:43.120 meet that deadline. So I mean, what do you do, Like, 0:15:43.400 --> 0:15:47.760 do you what's the well? I guess what's the fine? 0:15:47.800 --> 0:15:51.080 And how do you define how much each place pays? 0:15:51.120 --> 0:15:54.280 I mean based on what the offense is. Yeah, you 0:15:54.400 --> 0:15:57.600 measure that again. And you know, because pollution also doesn't 0:15:57.960 --> 0:16:01.520 doesn't necessarily obeyed geography. You could have pollution that is 0:16:01.560 --> 0:16:04.160 produced in one place, but it's another place that's dealing 0:16:04.160 --> 0:16:06.640 with it. Uh. And and in states where you have 0:16:06.680 --> 0:16:09.240 big cities that are close to the border, it maybe 0:16:09.440 --> 0:16:11.600 that one city is actually producing the pollution, but the 0:16:11.640 --> 0:16:13.440 other city is the one that's really suffering from it. 0:16:13.640 --> 0:16:16.120 Dumping into rivers is a great example. Yeah, you know 0:16:16.280 --> 0:16:19.040 stuff like that where it flows downstream, Yeah, exactly, or 0:16:19.120 --> 0:16:22.600 trucked into a different region. Just simple air patterns exactly. 0:16:22.800 --> 0:16:26.160 You know, weather patterns can push it. So, uh, you know, 0:16:26.200 --> 0:16:28.360 they they pushed the deadlines a couple of times. It 0:16:28.400 --> 0:16:30.080 made me think of like if you're if you're a 0:16:30.120 --> 0:16:31.880 parent of a kid and you say I need you 0:16:31.960 --> 0:16:34.240 to pick up all these toys before five o'clock and 0:16:34.320 --> 0:16:36.440 you're coming there and it's all the toys aren't picked up, 0:16:36.480 --> 0:16:39.160 and you're thinking, well, all right, you need to pick 0:16:39.200 --> 0:16:42.200 up all these toys before six o'clock because you're like, 0:16:42.240 --> 0:16:44.520 I don't really want to punish you, but I really 0:16:44.560 --> 0:16:46.720 do want you to pick up these toys where it's done. 0:16:46.760 --> 0:16:50.200 But they've just thrown them in their brother's closet. Yeah, see, 0:16:50.280 --> 0:16:52.560 pushing it down the road. Yeah, for me, it was 0:16:53.080 --> 0:16:55.840 it was all just shoving it into the closet like 0:16:56.040 --> 0:17:00.000 that's that. If it's out of sight, that means it's clean. Um. 0:17:00.200 --> 0:17:02.800 So one of the things about the Clean Air Act 0:17:03.440 --> 0:17:06.240 is that it it did have standards for what kinds 0:17:06.240 --> 0:17:08.960 of emissions and how much how many you know, types 0:17:09.000 --> 0:17:12.480 of emissions could be created by a car carbon dioxide 0:17:12.480 --> 0:17:15.480 by the way, non that list carbon dioxide, didn't. You know? 0:17:15.520 --> 0:17:18.200 That's the greenhouse gas, and it's something that we're concerned about, 0:17:18.480 --> 0:17:21.560 but not on the list of the emissions that the 0:17:21.600 --> 0:17:23.720 Clean Air Act was concerned with. Instead, it was things 0:17:23.760 --> 0:17:29.880 like carbon monoxide, nitrogen oxide, and hydrocarbon emissions greenhouse gasses. Yeah, 0:17:30.000 --> 0:17:31.760 except for carbon dioxide. That was the only one that 0:17:31.800 --> 0:17:33.479 was kind of left out, But yeah, these are all 0:17:33.480 --> 0:17:37.919 greenhouse gases. Yeah, and and diesel in particular is pretty 0:17:37.960 --> 0:17:41.040 bad about um nitrogen oxides, and that's the kind of 0:17:41.040 --> 0:17:44.960 stuff that contributes to smog uh formation. Yeah. You often 0:17:44.960 --> 0:17:47.520 see it written is like n O X yes, and 0:17:47.720 --> 0:17:52.080 of people yep. Yeah, hard knocks in that case. Uh 0:17:52.200 --> 0:17:55.560 So the standards of the emission centers themselves. When I 0:17:55.600 --> 0:17:59.159 say standard, it sounds like I could easily quote you. 0:17:59.160 --> 0:18:02.840 You know, here's how much uh nitrogen ox side the 0:18:02.880 --> 0:18:06.280 car is allowed to emit over a given amount of time. 0:18:06.600 --> 0:18:10.240 Not that simple. It all depends on the type of vehicle, 0:18:10.400 --> 0:18:12.920 like you were saying, between light trucks and passenger cars 0:18:12.920 --> 0:18:16.360 for example, or the age of the vehicle that that 0:18:16.400 --> 0:18:20.440 plays a factor as well. Um so, and also whether 0:18:20.480 --> 0:18:22.960 it's a gasoline powered vehicle or a diesel powered vehicle, 0:18:23.000 --> 0:18:27.200 because the emissions will be different depending upon those. So 0:18:27.880 --> 0:18:31.240 it's a little complicated, and I'm not going to be, 0:18:31.520 --> 0:18:34.280 you know, spouting off specific numbers because it's just not 0:18:34.400 --> 0:18:37.040 there's no point to it. A different podcast. Yeah, that's 0:18:37.080 --> 0:18:41.200 that's the that's the the incredibly tiny standards podcast. I'm 0:18:41.200 --> 0:18:44.600 not gonna get down to that. But to go to sleep, 0:18:44.960 --> 0:18:47.560 yes the evening, and I don't mind if you guys 0:18:47.560 --> 0:18:49.720 fall asleep to me. I don't do the listener mail 0:18:49.800 --> 0:18:51.680 thing anymore. So at least you're not gonna be woken 0:18:51.720 --> 0:18:56.840 up by a clackson. Um. So, like we said, the performance, 0:18:56.880 --> 0:18:59.280 the energy efficiency or fuel efficiency, I should say, and 0:18:59.280 --> 0:19:01.440 the emissions are these three things, and it is very 0:19:01.520 --> 0:19:05.639 hard to meet the expectations of all three of those 0:19:05.960 --> 0:19:09.119 at the same time because um As it turns out, 0:19:09.160 --> 0:19:13.000 a lot of the emissions control mechanisms have an effect 0:19:13.080 --> 0:19:16.479 on performance. Um they have an effect on and they 0:19:16.520 --> 0:19:20.840 can have an effect on fuel efficiency. For example, it's 0:19:21.280 --> 0:19:23.280 correlation is kind of a weird word, but there is 0:19:23.280 --> 0:19:28.760 an association between a very fuel efficient diesel engine and 0:19:28.920 --> 0:19:34.239 high production of nitrogen oxide. So you if you're an 0:19:34.240 --> 0:19:37.080 auto manufacturer, you have to make an engine to make 0:19:37.080 --> 0:19:39.399 your cargo, and you're using you know, you want it 0:19:39.440 --> 0:19:43.560 to be a diesel powered engine. You have specific standards 0:19:43.600 --> 0:19:45.760 you have to meet for fuel efficiency, that's one of 0:19:45.800 --> 0:19:48.320 the things you've got to you know, you one of 0:19:48.320 --> 0:19:50.560 the boxes you have to check off. But you also 0:19:50.640 --> 0:19:53.040 have standards you have to meet for emissions. That's the 0:19:53.040 --> 0:19:56.920 other box you've got to check off. And in this relationship, 0:19:57.040 --> 0:19:59.840 as one goes up, the other goes down. In a 0:20:00.000 --> 0:20:02.560 in the bad way, right, Like, as as one improves, 0:20:02.560 --> 0:20:06.359 the other one is getting worse. So how do you 0:20:06.640 --> 0:20:10.160 balance that out? Plus make sure that the car performs 0:20:10.160 --> 0:20:13.639 in such a way that it's not just drivable that 0:20:13.760 --> 0:20:16.160 people want to drive, that a consumer would actually want 0:20:16.200 --> 0:20:19.440 to drive that vehicle. Because when you start playing around 0:20:19.480 --> 0:20:23.280 with these three things that you've mentioned, Um, I'll argue 0:20:23.320 --> 0:20:27.040 that consumers are and I know that this is I 0:20:27.080 --> 0:20:30.240 guess maybe controversial, and that you know, some people say, no, 0:20:30.320 --> 0:20:32.440 that's what I care about most. It's always gonna be 0:20:32.480 --> 0:20:35.760 someone like that. But um, I would say that most 0:20:35.760 --> 0:20:38.879 people care less about the actual emissions of the vehicle 0:20:38.920 --> 0:20:41.480 than they do about the fuel economy and the way 0:20:41.480 --> 0:20:43.840 that the car performs. Are fuels and drive right, because 0:20:43.840 --> 0:20:46.760 the fuel efficiency is going to impact your wallet, right, 0:20:46.840 --> 0:20:48.600 you know, it's how much fuel you're gonna have to 0:20:48.640 --> 0:20:50.760 buy to get your car to go from place to place, 0:20:51.320 --> 0:20:55.200 and performance obviously the way the car feels emissions. I 0:20:55.200 --> 0:20:58.199 would argue for most people, they want the emissions to 0:20:58.320 --> 0:21:01.399 be at a level that is acceptable for the region 0:21:01.440 --> 0:21:02.960 their end. Well what I mean by that, and I 0:21:02.960 --> 0:21:04.880 don't I don't mean to you know, spark any kind 0:21:04.880 --> 0:21:06.960 of big controversy or anything. But what I'm saying is 0:21:07.000 --> 0:21:09.160 that when you buy a new vehicle off the lot, 0:21:09.200 --> 0:21:11.640 you assume that it's going to be compliant with current 0:21:11.760 --> 0:21:14.919 CAFE or not cafe, but rather emission standards in that 0:21:15.040 --> 0:21:17.600 area and in the U S in general. It's going 0:21:17.640 --> 0:21:19.960 to pass. It's going to be a clean vehicle, and 0:21:20.040 --> 0:21:22.680 it wouldn't be sold as a new car otherwise it 0:21:22.680 --> 0:21:24.639 wouldn't be allowed to Well no, but I mean you 0:21:24.640 --> 0:21:27.320