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Speaker 1: Welcome to Katie's Crib, a production of Our Heart Radio

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Speaker 1: and Shondaland Audio. Hi everybody, thank you so much for

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Speaker 1: listening to Katie's Crib. Today we are talking about race.

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Speaker 1: I sincerely want to learn how to be an anti

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Speaker 1: racist parent, and I sincerely want to learn how to

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Speaker 1: raise an anti racist kid. And I'm going to be

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Speaker 1: brutally honest with you, guys, I don't know how to

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Speaker 1: do that, and in all the ways that we have

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Speaker 1: seen in the past with Katie's Grib, you guys know,

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Speaker 1: I really like to use this podcast and this platform

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Speaker 1: to learn how to be a better parent, and so

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Speaker 1: I figured we're going to do the same thing on

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Speaker 1: the subject of race. We have collected an incredible group

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Speaker 1: of experts on the subject, and we get down and

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Speaker 1: honest and real about what we should be doing as parents,

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Speaker 1: what we can be doing better, and the action items

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Speaker 1: we need to take to make this world a better place.

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Speaker 1: Today we're featuring the brilliant Dr Beverly Daniel Tatum. Dr

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Speaker 1: Tatum and I cover so much ground, and something I

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Speaker 1: found especially helpful is the specific examples she shares for

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Speaker 1: how to have these necessary and often uncomfortable conversations around

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Speaker 1: race with our kids. Thanks so much for listening and

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Speaker 1: here we go, so without further ado. Dr Beverly Daniel

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Speaker 1: Tatum is an award winning educational leader, noted expert on

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Speaker 1: the psychology of racism, a best selling author of the

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Speaker 1: book Why Are All the Black Kids Sitting Together in

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Speaker 1: the Cafeteria? And other conversations about race, and she's a

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Speaker 1: mother of two. As a leading voice on race and racism,

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Speaker 1: Dr Tatum has devoted the past forty years to teaching

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Speaker 1: people how to break the silence and embrace cross racial

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Speaker 1: dialogue to lead to effective action for social change. We're

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Speaker 1: incredibly lucky to have her on Katie's crib. Dr Tatum,

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Speaker 1: I cannot thank you so much for your work and

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Speaker 1: for making time for us. Mama is today. I'm happy

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Speaker 1: to be here. I'm so I know you're very busy.

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Speaker 1: If you guys go to her website, you can see

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Speaker 1: the podcasts and the articles that you have been writing

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Speaker 1: in the past few weeks, let alone the books you've

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Speaker 1: been writing for a billion years, but also the incredible

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Speaker 1: you might know her from the Sesame Street special Um

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Speaker 1: town hall that was done. You were one of the

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Speaker 1: experts that were featured UM during section two of that

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Speaker 1: wonderfully informative show that you can You can see the

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Speaker 1: link on your on your website or on CNN dot com.

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Speaker 1: But first I want to get started. I love your book.

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Speaker 1: Thank you, Ah, I love your book. I'm embarrassingly admittingly

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Speaker 1: so I'm ashamed to say I came to it too late,

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Speaker 1: only in the past two weeks, and I've been devouring

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Speaker 1: it and into prep for this. In your view, I

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Speaker 1: have to go back and reread a million sections. But

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Speaker 1: in your book you say we all have our own

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Speaker 1: sphere of influence and we should consider how it might

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Speaker 1: be used to interrupt the cycle of racism. And since

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Speaker 1: this is, you know, a podcast for parents and those

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Speaker 1: who are interested in becoming parents, I want to focus

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Speaker 1: on our sphere of influence at home and UM and

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Speaker 1: how we know how how we can choose to raise

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Speaker 1: our kids well we know is going to have a

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Speaker 1: massive impact on the future. So we're going to get

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Speaker 1: to that. But before we get into raising the future,

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Speaker 1: no pressure, guys, we got a lot to do. I

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Speaker 1: want to look at the past. You've referred to yourself

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Speaker 1: as an integration baby. Can you share a little bit

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Speaker 1: about your own upbringing and what it was like for

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Speaker 1: you in a coming of age during the civil rights era,

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Speaker 1: and how did your childhood experiences inspire your work. Sure well,

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Speaker 1: so let's start with the very beginning, which is that

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Speaker 1: was the year that I was born, and it happens

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Speaker 1: to be the year of the Brown Versus Board of

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Speaker 1: Education Supreme Court decision, which is why I refer to

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Speaker 1: myself as an integration baby, right, because that was the

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Speaker 1: year that school segregation was declared unconstitutional. And but I

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Speaker 1: was born. Let's say that I was born in Florida,

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Speaker 1: UM and Florida, like a lot of southern states, did

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Speaker 1: not immediately moved to desegregate the schools, even though that

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Speaker 1: was the ruling in nine And the impact that had

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Speaker 1: on my life is that my parents, both of whom

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Speaker 1: were educators, were impacted by segregation in the South. My father,

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Speaker 1: in particular, was a professor teaching at Florida A. And

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Speaker 1: M University, which is a historically black college, and he

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Speaker 1: was educated at Howard University as an art major. He

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Speaker 1: was an artist, and then he got a master's degree

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Speaker 1: at the University of Iowa in the early fifties, wanted

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Speaker 1: to get a doctorate so he could advance in higher

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Speaker 1: education and would have liked to do that in Tallahassee, Florida,

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Speaker 1: where we were living, at Florida State University just across town.

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Speaker 1: But Florida State at that time was an all white institution,

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Speaker 1: so he was not able to attend. Even though it

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Speaker 1: was after Brown versus Board of Education, the state of

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Speaker 1: Florida had to accommodate providing access to black graduate students.

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Speaker 1: But the way they did that in my father's case

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Speaker 1: was to pay his transportation out of the state. So

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Speaker 1: my dad, it's crazy to hear that now and today

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Speaker 1: Florida State is a very diverse institution in terms of

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Speaker 1: its student population, but back in nineteen fifty four, he

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Speaker 1: couldn't go, and so they paid his transportation to Pennsylvania

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Speaker 1: and he attended penn State, got his doctorate there, finished

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Speaker 1: that degree in nineteen fifty seven. And so now I'm

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Speaker 1: three years old and my parents are thinking they don't

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Speaker 1: want to stay in Florida, and so they moved moved

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Speaker 1: to Massachusetts in part because they did not want their children.

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Speaker 1: I had an older brother at the time, he was

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Speaker 1: about to start school, and they didn't want him to

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Speaker 1: start school in a segregated school system. So we moved

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Speaker 1: to a small town outside of Boston. My father became

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Speaker 1: the first African American professor at Bridgewater State University. And

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Speaker 1: I grew up in that small town going to school,

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Speaker 1: one of just a very small number of black children

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Speaker 1: in the school district. And uh so, really from the

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Speaker 1: very beginning, issues of race and racism were shaping my life. Wow,

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Speaker 1: And one of the ideologies that emerged from the Civil

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Speaker 1: rights movement is this this idea of racial color blindness,

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Speaker 1: which we all know, and you very well known, since

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Speaker 1: you were raised around so much change. And it's not

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Speaker 1: it's it's just not real. It's not it's just not

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Speaker 1: it's not real. It's how I was raised. I think

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Speaker 1: my parents, I love them dearly. I think they really

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Speaker 1: thought they were doing a much better job than their

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Speaker 1: parents in terms of race, and that everyone was welcome

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Speaker 1: in our home, that they were claiming not to judge

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Speaker 1: anybody based on race, even though we know that is

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Speaker 1: also not possible. Well, let's start with the idea of

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Speaker 1: color blindness. So, um, a lot of parents will say,

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Speaker 1: you know, my child doesn't see color, you know she's

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Speaker 1: color blind, or they will say I want her to

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Speaker 1: be color blind, I want him to be color blind,

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Speaker 1: And what they really mean is I want my child

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Speaker 1: to treat everyone the same, or to not discriminate. Nothing

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Speaker 1: wrong with teaching your kids not to discriminate. But what

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Speaker 1: we know is that kids do notice difference. They from

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Speaker 1: a very young age notice skin color differences and differences

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Speaker 1: in hair texture, and they have questions about those differences,

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Speaker 1: and they will ask questions of their parents like why

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Speaker 1: is tommy skin so brown? Or why is you know,

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Speaker 1: Susie's hair so curly? Why doesn't it look like mine? Um,

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Speaker 1: these are questions that they're likely to ask, and a

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Speaker 1: parent who is concerned that their child not noticed is

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Speaker 1: likely to respond to those questions with, you know, don't

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Speaker 1: talk about it, don't notice it, Never comment on someone's

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Speaker 1: skin color or hair texture or eye shape. And those

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Speaker 1: are messages that tell a child that there's something wrong

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Speaker 1: with those things. We don't speak about them because maybe

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Speaker 1: there's something wrong with it and uh, and so that's

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Speaker 1: that's an inadvertent message I think that kids are getting.

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Speaker 1: And of course, if they've got questions like why do

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Speaker 1: people have different skin colors, that's a question you can

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Speaker 1: answer with factual information has to do with melanin in

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Speaker 1: the skin. The more you have, the browner it is.

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Speaker 1: Melanin helps protect them the sun. People who come from

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Speaker 1: really warm places tend to have darker skin. Um, all

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Speaker 1: of that is easily explained to a young child. But

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Speaker 1: if a parent is so anxious by the question, or

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Speaker 1: you know, made so anxious by the question, they mostly

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Speaker 1: try to shut it down. That leads not the color blindness,

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Speaker 1: but what I call in my book color silence. Color silence,

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Speaker 1: and I i am a I have that I have

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Speaker 1: not had as many conversations about race that I've ever

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Speaker 1: had in my entire life since um, the past three

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Speaker 1: weeks and all of these brutal police violence and murders

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Speaker 1: of black people, which we know has been going on forever.

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Speaker 1: And I am definitely one of those white people that

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Speaker 1: just color silence, color blind That's how I was raised.

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Speaker 1: We don't talk about it. And I could already see

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Speaker 1: with my two and a half year old son that

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Speaker 1: I could easily keep that systemic racism happening. I could

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Speaker 1: definitely say that in the past two weeks, I've bought

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Speaker 1: books and pointed out, you know, this person has black skin,

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Speaker 1: this person is round skin, this person has white skin,

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Speaker 1: this person you know, and and I sweat just even

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Speaker 1: saying the word, and I say, wow, I'm so uncomfortable

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Speaker 1: even saying it to my son because color blindness and

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Speaker 1: color silence has made it so that we don't have

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Speaker 1: the language skills, or I don't have the language skills.

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Speaker 1: So when you started teaching, UM this class psychology of Racism,

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Speaker 1: was this the first time that a lot of white

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Speaker 1: people were having conversations about this? Obviously, I'm sure most

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Speaker 1: of your black students had already had these conversations. Yes,

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Speaker 1: it was for a lot of students. So I first taught,

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Speaker 1: of course on the psychology of Racism, in which very

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Speaker 1: early in my career, I was about twenty six years old,

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Speaker 1: and I UM, but I have the opportunity to teach

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Speaker 1: this class, and even though I was an inexperienced educator

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Speaker 1: at that point, at the end of the semester, of

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Speaker 1: my students, most of whom were white, said, this class

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Speaker 1: has been the most eye opening course I've ever taken.

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Speaker 1: Why did I have to wait till I was a

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Speaker 1: junior or senior in college to have these conversations? For

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Speaker 1: many of them, it was the first time that they'd

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Speaker 1: really been able to talk openly about issues of race, racism,

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Speaker 1: racial identity, not just in school but anywhere, because there

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Speaker 1: had been so much silence in their families and their

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Speaker 1: communities around these issues. And the black students were they like,

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Speaker 1: we've been having these conversations. I mean, I know we've

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Speaker 1: seen a lot on Instagram, these conversations that I see

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Speaker 1: adults having with their black children of how to what

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Speaker 1: do you do if a police officer comes up to you,

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Speaker 1: which my white privilege has allowed me to never have

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Speaker 1: that conversation with my parents or my child as if yet,

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Speaker 1: were your black students already noticing this huge difference? Okay, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean typically, you know, in those classes, over the

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Speaker 1: course of the years that I taught it, the students

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Speaker 1: of color, particularly the African American students, UM had had

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Speaker 1: many more conversations at home with their parents, UM in

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Speaker 1: the ways that you were just describing, or with family

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Speaker 1: members or friends who were also people of color. Then

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Speaker 1: the you know, it was very common for white students

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Speaker 1: to say, we never talked about it at home. Black

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Speaker 1: kids would say, yes, we've had those conversations at home.

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Speaker 1: What was uncommon was for both of them to be

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Speaker 1: able to have conversations together. Right. So a lot of

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Speaker 1: black kids will have had conversations in their families, but

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Speaker 1: not necessarily with white people. So the cross racial conversation

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Speaker 1: sometimes it's a new experience for everyone. Wow. Wow. So

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Speaker 1: getting back to this podcast, in like that, kids say

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Speaker 1: the darnedest things. Okay, uh, And I'm assuming I love

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Speaker 1: watching your ted talk about I think it wasn't it

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Speaker 1: your son who said does he drink a lot of

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Speaker 1: chocolate milk or something? Though? Well, my three year old when,

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Speaker 1: of course my son has all grown up now, but

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Speaker 1: when he used three, he came home from school saying,

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Speaker 1: Tommy says, my skin is brown because I drank chocolate.

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Speaker 1: That's right? Is that true? You wanted you wanted the facts?

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Speaker 1: You know what? And is this one it occurred to

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Speaker 1: you that the melanin answer was something that was very

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Speaker 1: tangible for a three year old? You know. I also

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Speaker 1: think as a lot of these white parents are waking

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Speaker 1: up to having conversations with race with their kids, there

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Speaker 1: are developmentally appropriate ways in which to address a different age. Obviously,

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Speaker 1: we're going to talk about race differently with the three

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Speaker 1: and a half year old than we are with a

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Speaker 1: fifteen year old. So can you just say, I think

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Speaker 1: language skills right now were so important and to practice

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Speaker 1: is so important. So how did you address that question

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Speaker 1: when he asked it to So as you said, you know,

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Speaker 1: you have to be developmentally appropriate. And the good news

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Speaker 1: is I'm a child clinical psychologist. Lucky your kids have

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Speaker 1: a good So I had awareness of what would be

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Speaker 1: appropriate talking to a three year old. But what I

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Speaker 1: said to him is, no, your skin is not brown

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Speaker 1: because you drank toolate milk. Your skin is brown because

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Speaker 1: you have something in your skin called melanin. Everybody has some,

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Speaker 1: even Tommy remember when he went to visit his grandmother

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Speaker 1: and he came back from Florida with a tan. It

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Speaker 1: was the melanin in his skin that made it turn

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Speaker 1: brown in the sun. Everybody has some. It helps protect

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Speaker 1: your skin from the sun. But you are the kid

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Speaker 1: at your school with the most, which is why your

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Speaker 1: you know your skin is the brownest because you have

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Speaker 1: the most melanie. See, It's like we need to practice

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Speaker 1: saying things like that, because I just it's incredible how

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Speaker 1: ingrained it is for me to just say, well, first

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Speaker 1: of all, to not even prepare yourself. You know those

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Speaker 1: things are going to come. You know, at some point

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Speaker 1: your toddler is going to point out someone that looks

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Speaker 1: different than them, different hair, different eyes, different color, skin,

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Speaker 1: a different way, they walk, a different way, they talk

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Speaker 1: all of these things. And I feel like I'm not prepared,

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Speaker 1: and I just my husband and I have said, have

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Speaker 1: never had a conversation like, hey, when Albi says why

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Speaker 1: is he brown? Or why is he he have curly

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Speaker 1: hair or whatever, he's going to say, We've haven't prepared,

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Speaker 1: Like we've prepared. Let's say, well, we haven't yet, but

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Speaker 1: I would assume when they're older, like what are we

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Speaker 1: gonna do when our kid comes home and says, how

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Speaker 1: is a baby made? Or whatever? But but I'm so

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Speaker 1: unprepared for the race conversation that it's just ingrained to say, like,

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Speaker 1: you know, we don't we don't talk about that. Um.

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Speaker 1: So I love hearing your actual examples because I'm going

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Speaker 1: to use them. Well, you know, I want to just

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Speaker 1: be clear that, you know, as a parent myself, there

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Speaker 1: were times when I got caught off guard and I'm

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Speaker 1: thinking now of my same three year old. I have

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Speaker 1: two sons, but this particular one said to me. We

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Speaker 1: were in the restore and he said, Mom, why is

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Speaker 1: that woman so fat? Right, pointing out a really heavy

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Speaker 1: person in the store. And I, of course was embarrassed

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Speaker 1: for him and her and me, you know, and your

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Speaker 1: impulse is that you know the child, um, And that

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Speaker 1: was my initial impulse. But then I recovered and I said,

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Speaker 1: because people come in different sizes, you know. Um. It

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Speaker 1: doesn't have to be a long drawn out explanation. You know.

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Speaker 1: I could have said, if let's imagine my son was

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Speaker 1: pointing out somebody whose skin was different from his own,

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Speaker 1: maybe much darker or lighter, and he said, you know,

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Speaker 1: why is that person's skin that way, I could talk

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Speaker 1: about melanin. But I could also just say, because people

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Speaker 1: come in different shades, just like some people have blonde here,

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Speaker 1: some people have brown hair, some people have freckles some

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Speaker 1: people don't you know? People come in all different sizes, shapes,

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Speaker 1: skin tones. Do we initiate these conversations or are we

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Speaker 1: supposed to wait for them for a toddler to bring

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Speaker 1: that up to us. I think you can initiate them, um.

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Speaker 1: But there are easy ways to do that, And one

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Speaker 1: of the easiest is to read a book. You know,

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Speaker 1: there are lots of children's books that address difference difference

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Speaker 1: hair hair and hair texture, difference in physical shapes of

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Speaker 1: eyes or skin color, you know, books that are celebrating

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Speaker 1: the diversity of the human family. And so if you

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Speaker 1: have a preschoolers book and you're reading it together, you

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Speaker 1: can just talk about I mean, some of those books

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Speaker 1: will give language because that's what the book is about. Um.

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Speaker 1: But to be able to say, oh, isn't this you know,

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Speaker 1: look at this picture? How about that? You know, does

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Speaker 1: she looks like our friend at school? You can just

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Speaker 1: have a very natural conversation about the text in front

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Speaker 1: of you. Yeah, there is a website I think social

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Speaker 1: justice dot org is social Justice books dot org. That's right,

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Speaker 1: social Justice Books dot organ. We will link to it

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Speaker 1: on Katie's cript because I have found that through you

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Speaker 1: very helpful. And yes, the book thing, it has been

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Speaker 1: so helpful. This morning we read a Sesame Street book.

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Speaker 1: You know, We're different, and it just gave me a

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Speaker 1: framework for someone who's so I'm so uncomfortable having these

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Speaker 1: conversations and I'm so not practiced that to just open

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Speaker 1: a book that had Sesame Street drawings of different eyes

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Speaker 1: close up and different nose close up, and I'm like,

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Speaker 1: look at her nose, look at his look at his face,

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Speaker 1: Like isn't that beautiful? You know, like just at least

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Speaker 1: having some sort of framework, So I'm not just completely

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Speaker 1: at a loss. It was very very helpful. What about

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Speaker 1: when you as an educator? I find this so sensitive.

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Speaker 1: I'm just so I don't even know angry about my education.

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Speaker 1: I just am. I can't believe how many things I could.

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Speaker 1: I just can't believe how many things in the past

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Speaker 1: three weeks I have never known, historically speaking, And how

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Speaker 1: do we help that, how do we make demands and

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Speaker 1: and push forward that the real history of this country

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Speaker 1: is being taught to our children. Well, it does require

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Speaker 1: some self education, right, because you know, you don't know

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Speaker 1: what's missing if it's also missing for you, right, you

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Speaker 1: know you're missing guys guilt right here, missing right, you know. So,

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Speaker 1: So the good news is there's a lot of great

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Speaker 1: stuff out there to educate oneself. You know. They're wonderful books,

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Speaker 1: some classic text you know, I think about Howardson's Book

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Speaker 1: of People's History of the United States, you know, and

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Speaker 1: if you don't have time to read, there's probably an

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Speaker 1: audible version, right, you know. So, so there are lots

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Speaker 1: of ways for us to educate ourselves. But I do

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Speaker 1: think for a lot of people, and this was certainly

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Speaker 1: true of my college students. You know, we would talk

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Speaker 1: about historical events, even something as recent as the interment

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Speaker 1: of Japanese Americans during World War Two, and I would

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Speaker 1: have kids who would say, I have never heard of

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Speaker 1: that before. I'd be just shocked. And and today, um,

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Speaker 1: if you think about the fact that this is twenty

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Speaker 1: year there are young people who weren't alive during the

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Speaker 1: Civil Rights movement. You know, I was born in fifty four,

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Speaker 1: As I said, you know, I I remember quite clearly

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Speaker 1: the assassination of Dr King. I remember, you know, seeing

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Speaker 1: on the nightly news protests in Alabama and other places,

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Speaker 1: because that was I was, you know, coming of age,

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Speaker 1: a teenager during that time. But if you were so

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Speaker 1: this is so interesting, this is so for you. Wow. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: But if you were born in the year two thousand year,

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Speaker 1: twenty years old, now you know, you don't have any

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Speaker 1: memory of those things, and hopefully you've learned something about

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Speaker 1: them in high school or middle school or college, but

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Speaker 1: you might not have. So there are a lot of

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Speaker 1: For many people, there are these gaps in their understanding

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Speaker 1: of US history, and it's very difficult to really get

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Speaker 1: the depth of what's going on right now without that history.

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Speaker 1: So I just encourage people to, you know, read. But

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Speaker 1: also there are lots of documentaries. For example, you know,

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Speaker 1: one of a fabulous one that's available on Netflix right now,

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Speaker 1: which relates to police violence is Oh, it's unbelievable. You know,

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Speaker 1: it's a very powerful certainly not intended for young children

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Speaker 1: to view, but for adults who want to really educate

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Speaker 1: themselves about the ongoing struggle for freedom, it's certainly very powerful,

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Speaker 1: and you to bring it back around. You're right, I can't.

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Speaker 1: I can't help my child unless I know when should

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Speaker 1: parents begin educating their kids on the painful historical moments

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Speaker 1: in our in our history and African American history, Like

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Speaker 1: how can we talk about slavery in an age appropriate way?

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Speaker 1: I love I've heard you say a little bit about this,

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Speaker 1: and I've been telling my husband a lot about using

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Speaker 1: the word fair or unfair. I feel like it's something

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Speaker 1: that kids really get while they're figuring out how to

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Speaker 1: share and recurring out why does this person get something

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Speaker 1: that I don't have. At what age is something like

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Speaker 1: slavery appropriate to talk about? And how do we do so? Well?

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Speaker 1: You know, um, I know that you made reference to

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Speaker 1: my ted X talk entitled it's my skin brown because

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Speaker 1: I drank chocolate. No, you know, in that talk, I

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Speaker 1: also talk about a conversation I had with my four

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Speaker 1: year old son about slavery. Not voluntarily. I would just

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Speaker 1: say I wasn't planning to have a conversation with the

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Speaker 1: four year old about slavery, but he asked me a

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Speaker 1: question that I could not answer without talking about slavery.

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Speaker 1: So to just give this context, you know, he came

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Speaker 1: home and he said, you know, one of his friends

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Speaker 1: at school, So and so says I'm black and my

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Speaker 1: black And I said, yes, you are. And then he said,

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Speaker 1: but my skin is brown. Um, you know it's not black.

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Speaker 1: And I said, well, you're right, your skin is the

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Speaker 1: color brown. But black is a term that people used

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Speaker 1: to describe African Americans, just like people use the term

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Speaker 1: white to describe people who came from Europe. European Americans,

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Speaker 1: I said, and you know, white people aren't really white.

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Speaker 1: They're more like pink or beije or tan um. And

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Speaker 1: people from Africa aren't really black, but that's the language

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Speaker 1: people use that you know, people African, people from African

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Speaker 1: descent are different shades of brown. We talked a little

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Speaker 1: bit about that, and then I said, you know, I

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Speaker 1: what I wanted to emphasize was his sense of pride

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Speaker 1: in being African American. So I was talking about the

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Speaker 1: wonders of Africa and you know what it means to

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Speaker 1: be um from a long vision of culture that goes

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Speaker 1: back a long way. And I'm just, you know, saying,

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Speaker 1: sharing all the things that I had learned about Africa, UM,

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Speaker 1: big continent. But this is what I was sharing. And

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Speaker 1: then he said to me, if Africa is so great,

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Speaker 1: what are we doing here? This is a four year old, right,

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Speaker 1: I am sweating. So what could I say? You know,

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Speaker 1: I could not adequately answer why people of African descent

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Speaker 1: were sitting in the United States of America without talking

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Speaker 1: about slavery. And so I said, well, that's a great question.

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Speaker 1: That's you know, sort of filling in the gap of

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Speaker 1: a little time doing myself time to think that's a

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Speaker 1: great question. But here's a little bit of information. Remember

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Speaker 1: when you were in your day care center and they

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Speaker 1: were talking about the pilgrims, and you know, the pioneers

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Speaker 1: settling this country way back when, when before they were

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Speaker 1: stores and before there were roads and you know, farms

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Speaker 1: and stuff. People, the European settlers came and they had

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Speaker 1: a lot of work to do, and they needed a

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Speaker 1: lot of workers to get that work done. And so

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Speaker 1: they went to Africa and they got the strongest, smartest

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Speaker 1: workers they could find. Unfortunately, they didn't want to pay them,

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Speaker 1: and they brought them here against their will. That was

430
00:25:24,680 --> 00:25:27,880
Speaker 1: very unfair and and they and they made them work,

431
00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:32,120
Speaker 1: and that's what's called slavery, and it was very unfair.

432
00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:37,960
Speaker 1: And yet and the people who came struggled to escape,

433
00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:42,760
Speaker 1: and I really wanted to emphasize agency, not just victimization. Uh,

434
00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:46,920
Speaker 1: you know, they struggled to escape, and they rebelled against

435
00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:52,760
Speaker 1: the slavery. But eventually, and I also wanted to emphasize allies. Right,

436
00:25:53,359 --> 00:25:55,679
Speaker 1: you know, while you know a lot of the enslaving

437
00:25:55,760 --> 00:25:58,119
Speaker 1: people were white, they were also white people who were

438
00:25:58,119 --> 00:26:02,000
Speaker 1: helping them escape. And how being with the rebellions even

439
00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:08,680
Speaker 1: and so after sometime slavery came to an end. And uh,

440
00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:11,200
Speaker 1: the good news is I was never slave. You would

441
00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:14,240
Speaker 1: never slaved. Grandma and Granddaddy were never slaves. This was

442
00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:17,760
Speaker 1: really a long time ago. But that's how people from

443
00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:21,320
Speaker 1: Africa came to this place. So then he said, well,

444
00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:24,120
Speaker 1: when slavery was over, did why didn't they go back?

445
00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:29,240
Speaker 1: And I said, well, actually, some people did. You know,

446
00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:32,960
Speaker 1: there was a movement somewhere. Some people were able to

447
00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:35,240
Speaker 1: go back. But then I said, you know, some people

448
00:26:35,320 --> 00:26:38,440
Speaker 1: might have just wanted to be here because their families

449
00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:41,680
Speaker 1: were here. You know, they had people they cared about here.

450
00:26:42,119 --> 00:26:45,200
Speaker 1: And then he brought the conversation to a close, thankfully,

451
00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:47,879
Speaker 1: by saying, and this is a nice place too, And

452
00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:53,920
Speaker 1: I said, yes. Now, to just add a little color

453
00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:56,640
Speaker 1: to this situation, we were not at home. We were

454
00:26:56,680 --> 00:27:01,719
Speaker 1: in the grocery store now, sitting in the basket, you know,

455
00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:03,919
Speaker 1: I was doing my shopping and we're having a just

456
00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:07,360
Speaker 1: casual Saturday afternoon conversation. By the way, that's how it's

457
00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:10,040
Speaker 1: always going to happen. It's never gonna be like you

458
00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:13,440
Speaker 1: think it's is, you know, over the dinner table where

459
00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:15,760
Speaker 1: it's private and you can really have a heart to

460
00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:18,040
Speaker 1: heart or whatever it is. It's going to be in public.

461
00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:24,040
Speaker 1: It's going to be distracted and multitasking because we're moms

462
00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:26,480
Speaker 1: and that's how we do it, and you have to

463
00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:30,400
Speaker 1: take the opportunity when it comes exactly exactly. Now, if

464
00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:32,320
Speaker 1: you had said to me, are you planning to have

465
00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:35,160
Speaker 1: a conversation with your child about slavery when he's four?

466
00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:38,600
Speaker 1: I would have said no, probably not. But the truth is,

467
00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:41,520
Speaker 1: there are children's books that deal with the subject of

468
00:27:41,560 --> 00:27:44,760
Speaker 1: slavery that are appropriate for reading with a four year old.

469
00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:50,520
Speaker 1: There are One could imagine, for example, Juneteenth just took place,

470
00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:53,359
Speaker 1: right and many people were learning about Juneteenth for the

471
00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:56,480
Speaker 1: first time. But let's imagine you have a child who's

472
00:27:56,480 --> 00:27:59,440
Speaker 1: hearing about Juneteenth and you're saying, well, Juneteenth marked the

473
00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:02,680
Speaker 1: end of avery, Well, what was slavery? Tell me about that?

474
00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:06,399
Speaker 1: I mean, so you can see how easily, just listening

475
00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:09,520
Speaker 1: to the news together, you might find yourself in the

476
00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:13,480
Speaker 1: midst of a conversation with a young child. And what

477
00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:17,399
Speaker 1: about kids who are older watching the news today, how

478
00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:21,960
Speaker 1: do we talk to them about the police? Well, that's

479
00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:26,919
Speaker 1: very challenging, right, because it's even for adults to see.

480
00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:31,000
Speaker 1: The video, for example, of the killing of George Floyd

481
00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:34,199
Speaker 1: is very upsetting, and certainly it will be upsetting to

482
00:28:34,240 --> 00:28:37,560
Speaker 1: a younger person. If you can protect your children from

483
00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:40,680
Speaker 1: seeing those visual images, it's a good idea to do so.

484
00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:44,080
Speaker 1: But as we know, sometimes they have access to the

485
00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:47,480
Speaker 1: internet without our supervision. They see things on television just

486
00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:50,680
Speaker 1: passing through the room, or they hear about it, and

487
00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:55,040
Speaker 1: so you do want to be able to have those conversations.

488
00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:59,520
Speaker 1: And I think it's important to acknowledge the reality of

489
00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:03,440
Speaker 1: the thing that happened. This was a horrible thing that happened.

490
00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:06,920
Speaker 1: We know that there are police officers who are doing

491
00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:09,600
Speaker 1: good jobs and are trying to help people every day.

492
00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:12,760
Speaker 1: Most police officers don't use their guns and the course

493
00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:17,280
Speaker 1: of their career. That's a fact that said, we also

494
00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:20,920
Speaker 1: know that black people are more likely to suffer at

495
00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:23,600
Speaker 1: the hands of a police officer than white people are.

496
00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:27,360
Speaker 1: That's part of racism in our society, and that's why

497
00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:30,240
Speaker 1: people are out protesting right now because they want those

498
00:29:30,280 --> 00:29:34,880
Speaker 1: things to change. And for me emphasizing even you know,

499
00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:38,040
Speaker 1: when you're delivering bad news to a kid, you also

500
00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:41,360
Speaker 1: want to build in a sense of the possibility of change.

501
00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:44,960
Speaker 1: There's a long history of this kind of violence. We

502
00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:48,320
Speaker 1: know that there's a long history of unfairness there's a

503
00:29:48,320 --> 00:29:51,920
Speaker 1: long history of racism built into our society, UM, But

504
00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:54,400
Speaker 1: even as we're talking about it, we also want to

505
00:29:54,400 --> 00:29:57,640
Speaker 1: talk about the way each of us can work towards change.

506
00:29:57,720 --> 00:30:01,160
Speaker 1: And that's what's happening right now. I just love and

507
00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:04,479
Speaker 1: connect to your work so much in the way that you,

508
00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:08,120
Speaker 1: like you were talking to your son about slavery. How

509
00:30:08,120 --> 00:30:10,840
Speaker 1: it's so important to you to not only show stories

510
00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:15,479
Speaker 1: of you don't show stories of victimization. You show how

511
00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:18,840
Speaker 1: strong black people were in the face of slavery, or

512
00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:21,880
Speaker 1: you show that, yes, there were a lot of examples

513
00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:26,320
Speaker 1: of white people being very unfair to black people, but

514
00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:29,200
Speaker 1: you also say there were white p allies who stood

515
00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:32,560
Speaker 1: up for black people. And similarly, you're talking the same

516
00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:36,480
Speaker 1: about police officers. And I think that it's important to

517
00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:42,560
Speaker 1: UM acknowledge the problem. But even as we acknowledge the problem,

518
00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:46,760
Speaker 1: what's the solution? You know this is a problem, yep,

519
00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:50,480
Speaker 1: And you know through a black parent talking to a

520
00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:54,080
Speaker 1: black child, that child might worry that this thing could

521
00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:56,600
Speaker 1: happen to them. Or I was just going to ask

522
00:30:56,640 --> 00:30:59,440
Speaker 1: about that, how do you, as a black parent listening

523
00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:03,800
Speaker 1: right now the conversations that you're having about the police

524
00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:08,000
Speaker 1: what is that? How do you stress the realness of

525
00:31:08,040 --> 00:31:11,600
Speaker 1: it and the possibility of it? But also, I mean,

526
00:31:11,800 --> 00:31:14,080
Speaker 1: I just have to empathize with all parents. You don't

527
00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:16,160
Speaker 1: want your kid to be scared all the time. It's

528
00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:18,960
Speaker 1: just and so you don't want your kid to be

529
00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:22,200
Speaker 1: scared all the time. And you also don't want them

530
00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:25,840
Speaker 1: to be vulnerable because you haven't prepared them. So on

531
00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:28,040
Speaker 1: the one hand, you know, if you're talking to a

532
00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:30,720
Speaker 1: four year old, you're going to emphasize the fact that

533
00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:33,120
Speaker 1: you are here to protect I'm here to protect you.

534
00:31:33,120 --> 00:31:35,240
Speaker 1: You don't have to worry about that because I'm here

535
00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:37,920
Speaker 1: to protect you. Um. But if you're talking to a

536
00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:41,200
Speaker 1: fourteen year old, you're not there all the time to

537
00:31:41,240 --> 00:31:44,080
Speaker 1: protect that child. You know, they might be out riding

538
00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:47,040
Speaker 1: a bike or you know, end a car with a friend.

539
00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:51,000
Speaker 1: What might that? What happens if you're pulled over by

540
00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:53,720
Speaker 1: a police officer, If a police officer stops you and

541
00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:56,680
Speaker 1: wants to know where do you get that bike? You know, um,

542
00:31:56,720 --> 00:32:00,760
Speaker 1: all of that those are conversations that you have to have.

543
00:32:00,920 --> 00:32:03,240
Speaker 1: It's not fair that you have to have it. But

544
00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:06,960
Speaker 1: if you don't have those conversations, you might have a

545
00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:10,560
Speaker 1: child who doesn't know. Keep your hands visible at all times,

546
00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:14,840
Speaker 1: don't be rude, be as cooperative as possible, because you

547
00:32:14,920 --> 00:32:19,600
Speaker 1: don't want that police officer to get to feel fearful

548
00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:24,720
Speaker 1: or nervous or anxious around you. You know, it's it's

549
00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:26,920
Speaker 1: not fair that you have to have those conversations, but

550
00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:29,040
Speaker 1: it's better to have it and have the kid come home,

551
00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:33,280
Speaker 1: but to to later find out that, you know, somebody

552
00:32:33,280 --> 00:32:38,200
Speaker 1: got trigger happy. Yeah, it's not enough to not be racist.

553
00:32:38,320 --> 00:32:42,280
Speaker 1: Now we're using terminology that I've never used it. We

554
00:32:42,360 --> 00:32:45,040
Speaker 1: have to be anti racist. Can you describe to us

555
00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:48,040
Speaker 1: what the distinction A is. You illustrate this absolutely beautifully

556
00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:50,360
Speaker 1: in your book. Sure, well, I like to use a

557
00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:53,320
Speaker 1: visual and so let's imagine that we are at the

558
00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:57,520
Speaker 1: airport on a moving walkway. If we think about racism

559
00:32:57,640 --> 00:33:02,480
Speaker 1: as a system, not just with individual attitudes or actions,

560
00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:09,400
Speaker 1: but systems of policies and practices that systematically disadvantage people

561
00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:13,520
Speaker 1: of color. If we're talking about anti black racism systematically

562
00:33:13,640 --> 00:33:18,960
Speaker 1: targeting people of African descent, and so if we understand

563
00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:22,440
Speaker 1: that those policies and practices were in place long before

564
00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:25,680
Speaker 1: we entered the picture, you know that it's almost like

565
00:33:25,720 --> 00:33:29,120
Speaker 1: a conveyor belt moving us all along, sort of, we

566
00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:31,280
Speaker 1: don't even have to do anything. It's so built into

567
00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:35,240
Speaker 1: the system. So if you step onto that conveyor belt

568
00:33:35,280 --> 00:33:38,600
Speaker 1: of the cycle of racism carrying us all along, and

569
00:33:38,680 --> 00:33:42,360
Speaker 1: you embrace those racial attitudes, you embrace white supremacy, you

570
00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:45,800
Speaker 1: might be like the person walking fast on that walkway,

571
00:33:46,160 --> 00:33:50,000
Speaker 1: trying to get to the destination quickly. But you might say, no,

572
00:33:50,080 --> 00:33:52,200
Speaker 1: I don't think that way. I don't want to embrace that.

573
00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:54,880
Speaker 1: I'm just standing here. I'm not doing anything. I'm just

574
00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:58,080
Speaker 1: standing here. But even if you're standing still on a

575
00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:02,400
Speaker 1: moving walkway, you're being carried forward to the same destination.

576
00:34:02,760 --> 00:34:06,479
Speaker 1: You're just not fast exactly, You're headed in the same place.

577
00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:09,959
Speaker 1: If you decide, well, okay, I don't want to go there,

578
00:34:10,239 --> 00:34:13,400
Speaker 1: I'm gonna turn around and I'm going to look in

579
00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:18,440
Speaker 1: the other direction. Unless you're moving, you're just now traveling backward.

580
00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:22,440
Speaker 1: You're still going the same place. You just don't see it, right.

581
00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:26,360
Speaker 1: So the only way to interrupt this process is to

582
00:34:26,520 --> 00:34:30,120
Speaker 1: actively walk fast in the opposite direction. And that's what

583
00:34:30,239 --> 00:34:34,120
Speaker 1: anti racism is. It's about actively walking in a different

584
00:34:34,160 --> 00:34:38,360
Speaker 1: direction to interrupt that cycle of racism. You can't interrupt

585
00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:42,160
Speaker 1: it passively. So when someone says I'm not racist, usually

586
00:34:42,160 --> 00:34:45,839
Speaker 1: what they're saying is I'm just standing here. That's really

587
00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:48,880
Speaker 1: what they're describing. You know, I'm not using foul language,

588
00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:53,120
Speaker 1: I'm not using racial slurs. I'm not you know, actively discriminating.

589
00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:57,200
Speaker 1: But unless you're working to interrupt that system, you are

590
00:34:57,280 --> 00:34:59,920
Speaker 1: colluding with it. You're part of it as much as

591
00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:03,239
Speaker 1: a person who is actively walking in the sense that

592
00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:05,640
Speaker 1: you're all going in the same direction. You're all going

593
00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:19,839
Speaker 1: in the same direction. It's just continuing and continuing. So

594
00:35:20,280 --> 00:35:24,279
Speaker 1: to be an anti racist parent raising an anti racist kid,

595
00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:30,960
Speaker 1: what strategies can we take to empower them to transform

596
00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:34,680
Speaker 1: that knowledge into action? So it's like, not only can

597
00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:37,360
Speaker 1: we have the conversation and not be color silence, not

598
00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:41,000
Speaker 1: be color blind, talk about things when our kids bring

599
00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:44,640
Speaker 1: it up, read books, point things out, get comfortable with

600
00:35:44,719 --> 00:35:49,439
Speaker 1: the language skills. Now, how do I empower my kid

601
00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:54,120
Speaker 1: to be anti racist and to to run in the

602
00:35:54,160 --> 00:35:57,719
Speaker 1: other direction with me? How do we do it? So

603
00:35:57,760 --> 00:36:00,680
Speaker 1: I think that there are examples that can come up.

604
00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:06,600
Speaker 1: For example, um, we were talking about uh school settings,

605
00:36:06,920 --> 00:36:10,600
Speaker 1: you know, and the what's being taught what's missing. So

606
00:36:10,719 --> 00:36:13,680
Speaker 1: a parent could talk about the fact that, gosh, you know,

607
00:36:13,719 --> 00:36:17,200
Speaker 1: I was at the school today and I noticed that

608
00:36:17,280 --> 00:36:21,000
Speaker 1: there weren't any books in the school library of the

609
00:36:21,120 --> 00:36:24,719
Speaker 1: kind that I think kids should have access to. You know,

610
00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:27,799
Speaker 1: that's a that's that's a concern of mine. What do

611
00:36:27,840 --> 00:36:30,160
Speaker 1: you think about that? And you can talk to your

612
00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:32,480
Speaker 1: child about that. You know, it seems like they don't

613
00:36:32,520 --> 00:36:36,360
Speaker 1: have very many books written about children of color in

614
00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:41,400
Speaker 1: the library. And your child might say, well, you know,

615
00:36:41,480 --> 00:36:43,520
Speaker 1: but there aren't any kids of color in our neighborhood.

616
00:36:44,280 --> 00:36:48,879
Speaker 1: Maybe yes, and um, and the parent might say, well,

617
00:36:48,920 --> 00:36:51,280
Speaker 1: you know what, that's that might be true, but still

618
00:36:51,360 --> 00:36:53,960
Speaker 1: every kid should see kids of color in the books,

619
00:36:53,960 --> 00:36:56,359
Speaker 1: not just the kids of color. And so I think

620
00:36:56,440 --> 00:36:58,279
Speaker 1: we should do something about that. What do you think

621
00:36:58,280 --> 00:37:01,160
Speaker 1: we could do? And then you would have a conversation

622
00:37:01,320 --> 00:37:04,360
Speaker 1: about maybe we should write a letter to the school

623
00:37:04,440 --> 00:37:08,160
Speaker 1: or to the librarian. Maybe we should donate some books

624
00:37:08,200 --> 00:37:11,680
Speaker 1: to the library. Maybe we should have a you know,

625
00:37:12,360 --> 00:37:15,000
Speaker 1: which which books do you think let's look at Let's

626
00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:19,040
Speaker 1: go on that social Justice books dot org and figure

627
00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:21,360
Speaker 1: out which books would be the best ones to choose.

628
00:37:21,880 --> 00:37:24,759
Speaker 1: For example, you know, this is a small example, but

629
00:37:24,840 --> 00:37:27,880
Speaker 1: this is brilliant. This is how you start to affect

630
00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:32,600
Speaker 1: change together. Yes, exactly, And that I think is a

631
00:37:32,600 --> 00:37:36,040
Speaker 1: critical thing, that that you want your child to see

632
00:37:36,120 --> 00:37:38,960
Speaker 1: you as an agent of change, because you're going to

633
00:37:39,120 --> 00:37:42,359
Speaker 1: model that. You're going to model that. I want to

634
00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:46,600
Speaker 1: tell a short story. UM, I have a I have

635
00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:49,920
Speaker 1: a dear friend who is white. She and I have

636
00:37:50,080 --> 00:37:54,120
Speaker 1: done workshops on learning racism, workshops together for many years.

637
00:37:54,480 --> 00:37:59,080
Speaker 1: And she, because she's an anti racist activist, she has

638
00:37:59,160 --> 00:38:02,160
Speaker 1: raised an anti as his child. Um. And she told

639
00:38:02,239 --> 00:38:05,920
Speaker 1: me a story once about her son when he was seven,

640
00:38:06,440 --> 00:38:09,160
Speaker 1: and I think it's a really powerful example of the

641
00:38:09,320 --> 00:38:12,920
Speaker 1: kind of behavior we would like to see. So he

642
00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:16,319
Speaker 1: went to school on our school bus and when he

643
00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:19,720
Speaker 1: came home from school he was visibly upset. She asked

644
00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:22,640
Speaker 1: him what was upsetting him, and he said, there was

645
00:38:22,680 --> 00:38:24,560
Speaker 1: a kid on the bus. In this case, it wasn't

646
00:38:24,560 --> 00:38:26,800
Speaker 1: about race, but it was a different kind of difference.

647
00:38:26,840 --> 00:38:32,040
Speaker 1: There was a child with perhaps an intellectual disability on

648
00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:35,200
Speaker 1: the bus who was being picked on by older kids.

649
00:38:35,520 --> 00:38:40,040
Speaker 1: They were throwing spitballs at this child on the bus, bullying,

650
00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:44,399
Speaker 1: and this seven year old was very upset by what

651
00:38:44,440 --> 00:38:47,200
Speaker 1: he was seeing, and so he's telling his mom about

652
00:38:47,200 --> 00:38:48,880
Speaker 1: what happened. And she said, I can see why this

653
00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:51,279
Speaker 1: was upsetting to you. And he said, I didn't know

654
00:38:51,280 --> 00:38:53,120
Speaker 1: what to do. And of course the kids who were

655
00:38:53,160 --> 00:38:56,520
Speaker 1: behaving badly were older children, and so this little seven

656
00:38:56,600 --> 00:38:59,000
Speaker 1: year old didn't know what to do. So she said, well,

657
00:38:59,040 --> 00:39:00,759
Speaker 1: it must have been upset and he said, yeah, I

658
00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:02,279
Speaker 1: didn't know what to do. She said, well what did

659
00:39:02,360 --> 00:39:04,680
Speaker 1: you do? He said, well, I just went and sat

660
00:39:04,760 --> 00:39:09,120
Speaker 1: with him. And I thought that was like the perfect

661
00:39:09,160 --> 00:39:11,799
Speaker 1: thing over that seven year old to do. You know,

662
00:39:12,080 --> 00:39:14,320
Speaker 1: he got out of his seat and went and sat

663
00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:17,200
Speaker 1: next to that kid who was being picked on in

664
00:39:17,320 --> 00:39:20,280
Speaker 1: solidarity with him. You know, that was a great example

665
00:39:20,360 --> 00:39:24,720
Speaker 1: of what we would call upstandard behavior ally behavior UM.

666
00:39:24,760 --> 00:39:28,239
Speaker 1: And that seven year old had already learned that when

667
00:39:28,320 --> 00:39:32,200
Speaker 1: somebody's being mistreated, you stand up for that person. And

668
00:39:32,320 --> 00:39:35,600
Speaker 1: so um, that's the kind of behavior. I mean. It

669
00:39:35,600 --> 00:39:37,239
Speaker 1: could have been a black kid in this case. It

670
00:39:37,320 --> 00:39:40,360
Speaker 1: wasn't that. It wasn't about racism. It was about perhaps

671
00:39:40,480 --> 00:39:44,640
Speaker 1: able is m the understanding that I can intervene, I

672
00:39:44,680 --> 00:39:47,320
Speaker 1: can speak up, I can use my sphere of influence.

673
00:39:47,560 --> 00:39:49,399
Speaker 1: You know, I'm only seven but I can go sit

674
00:39:49,480 --> 00:39:54,800
Speaker 1: next to that kid. Wow, that's a beautiful story. Ah

675
00:39:54,840 --> 00:39:58,000
Speaker 1: what this is a huge question. But where do you

676
00:39:58,040 --> 00:40:00,920
Speaker 1: think the people of color who aren't black are falling

677
00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:06,400
Speaker 1: into this work? Well, it's massive, I sure, so I

678
00:40:06,440 --> 00:40:08,560
Speaker 1: think you know, when we talk about racism, what we

679
00:40:08,640 --> 00:40:11,920
Speaker 1: need to understand is racism impacts lots of groups of color,

680
00:40:11,920 --> 00:40:15,560
Speaker 1: not just Black people. And particularly during this time of

681
00:40:15,600 --> 00:40:19,560
Speaker 1: the pandemic, the COVID nineteen pandemic, we are reading about,

682
00:40:19,600 --> 00:40:22,560
Speaker 1: you know, the ways in which Asian Americans are being targeted,

683
00:40:22,880 --> 00:40:27,320
Speaker 1: you know, as somehow being at fault for this pandemic,

684
00:40:27,360 --> 00:40:31,840
Speaker 1: which clearly they are not. Um but and we have seen,

685
00:40:32,239 --> 00:40:36,600
Speaker 1: you know, post nine eleven attacks on Muslims, and you know,

686
00:40:36,719 --> 00:40:39,479
Speaker 1: other groups of people who are perceived as different because

687
00:40:39,520 --> 00:40:42,920
Speaker 1: of their religious affiliation and maybe because of their dress

688
00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:48,239
Speaker 1: and or skin color. So we know that racism is

689
00:40:48,280 --> 00:40:53,200
Speaker 1: not just something that black people experience. But I think

690
00:40:53,280 --> 00:40:56,400
Speaker 1: it is important to acknowledge that there is a kind

691
00:40:56,480 --> 00:41:02,319
Speaker 1: of anti black racism, which we saw on display with

692
00:41:02,440 --> 00:41:05,120
Speaker 1: the killing of George Floyd Um and when we talk

693
00:41:05,200 --> 00:41:08,600
Speaker 1: about the legacy of slavery, that there's a kind of

694
00:41:08,719 --> 00:41:13,360
Speaker 1: racism that is specific to the experience of African Americans,

695
00:41:14,280 --> 00:41:18,239
Speaker 1: and sometimes it is more violent, um than what might

696
00:41:18,239 --> 00:41:23,040
Speaker 1: be experienced by someone who has lighter skin, but is

697
00:41:23,080 --> 00:41:26,799
Speaker 1: also targeted in a different way. So, but I think

698
00:41:26,840 --> 00:41:30,440
Speaker 1: it's important to understand that, you know, racism is not

699
00:41:30,680 --> 00:41:33,840
Speaker 1: unique to black people, that there are other groups that

700
00:41:34,360 --> 00:41:39,520
Speaker 1: and there can be within communities of color attitudes. Even

701
00:41:39,560 --> 00:41:42,960
Speaker 1: within the African American community, there can be negative attitudes

702
00:41:43,560 --> 00:41:47,960
Speaker 1: towards people. We sometimes call this colorism, you know, where

703
00:41:48,239 --> 00:41:51,600
Speaker 1: we are valuing lighter skinned people over darker skinned people

704
00:41:51,800 --> 00:41:55,960
Speaker 1: or vice versas, so that the smog I call it smug,

705
00:41:56,040 --> 00:42:01,080
Speaker 1: you know, them of negative attitudes, you know, the prejudicial

706
00:42:01,160 --> 00:42:04,640
Speaker 1: attitudes that are part of our culture. We all breathe

707
00:42:04,640 --> 00:42:07,680
Speaker 1: that small, right, you know, unless we're wearing a gas mask,

708
00:42:07,760 --> 00:42:11,600
Speaker 1: we're all breathing that small And so even though we

709
00:42:11,640 --> 00:42:15,239
Speaker 1: can talk about the systemic nature of racism, those policies

710
00:42:15,239 --> 00:42:20,040
Speaker 1: and practices, we don't want to ignore the fact that

711
00:42:20,239 --> 00:42:26,520
Speaker 1: the cultural attitudes that create a racial hierarchy, some people

712
00:42:26,600 --> 00:42:29,800
Speaker 1: being better than other people based on their physical appearance

713
00:42:29,880 --> 00:42:33,600
Speaker 1: or other attributes, that we are all infected with that

714
00:42:34,360 --> 00:42:38,080
Speaker 1: because we've all been breathing this small and to the

715
00:42:38,160 --> 00:42:42,560
Speaker 1: extent that we recognize that that's part of our culture,

716
00:42:42,600 --> 00:42:44,920
Speaker 1: we all have a responsibility to try to clean up

717
00:42:44,960 --> 00:42:48,120
Speaker 1: that air. And that's what we're doing as parents when

718
00:42:48,120 --> 00:42:53,080
Speaker 1: we're trying to um and help our children understand the

719
00:42:53,400 --> 00:42:56,920
Speaker 1: value of all human beings and to recognize that these

720
00:42:57,200 --> 00:43:00,920
Speaker 1: racial hierarchies that are part of our culture are flawed

721
00:43:01,040 --> 00:43:06,720
Speaker 1: and false and need to be disrupted. MHM. In your book,

722
00:43:07,000 --> 00:43:11,920
Speaker 1: you write about critical consciousness. Can you just elaborate on

723
00:43:11,960 --> 00:43:16,720
Speaker 1: this important skill and how parents can help kids develop it. Sure,

724
00:43:16,840 --> 00:43:19,479
Speaker 1: So when I talk about critical consciousness, what I'm really

725
00:43:19,520 --> 00:43:24,120
Speaker 1: talking about is helping kids think critically about these social

726
00:43:24,160 --> 00:43:27,719
Speaker 1: justice issues like racism. But I use in my book

727
00:43:27,760 --> 00:43:32,480
Speaker 1: an example of talking to my oldest son about sexism.

728
00:43:32,520 --> 00:43:36,120
Speaker 1: So we were reading a book together in which I

729
00:43:36,320 --> 00:43:38,560
Speaker 1: observed and it was a book that I had read

730
00:43:38,680 --> 00:43:41,319
Speaker 1: when I was a kid, and I hadn't noticed it

731
00:43:41,360 --> 00:43:43,439
Speaker 1: when I was a kid, But now as a mom,

732
00:43:43,560 --> 00:43:46,440
Speaker 1: I'm sitting with my seven year old son. We're reading

733
00:43:46,440 --> 00:43:49,319
Speaker 1: this book together, and I'm noticing that the boys in

734
00:43:49,360 --> 00:43:52,440
Speaker 1: the story are being treated differently than the girls in

735
00:43:52,480 --> 00:43:56,640
Speaker 1: the story. Repeated. You know that there's two boys and

736
00:43:56,680 --> 00:43:59,360
Speaker 1: two girls in a family and the boys get the

737
00:43:59,360 --> 00:44:01,360
Speaker 1: fishing rod and the girls have to sit on the

738
00:44:01,400 --> 00:44:04,400
Speaker 1: banks and watch. You know, the boys are about to

739
00:44:04,440 --> 00:44:07,319
Speaker 1: solve the mystery and the girls are told to wait here, right,

740
00:44:07,400 --> 00:44:11,080
Speaker 1: you know, there's all this gendered behavior happening in the book.

741
00:44:11,520 --> 00:44:14,759
Speaker 1: And so I stopped reading and I said to my son,

742
00:44:15,040 --> 00:44:18,960
Speaker 1: something about this story is bothering me. He said, well,

743
00:44:19,000 --> 00:44:21,279
Speaker 1: what is it? I said, well, you know, there's Do

744
00:44:21,320 --> 00:44:24,760
Speaker 1: you know what sexism is? He said no, And I said,

745
00:44:24,840 --> 00:44:28,360
Speaker 1: sexism is when girls are being treated differently than boys

746
00:44:28,560 --> 00:44:32,440
Speaker 1: just because they're girls. And I'm noticing that these girls

747
00:44:32,600 --> 00:44:36,520
Speaker 1: are not getting the same privileges that the boys are getting,

748
00:44:36,520 --> 00:44:40,080
Speaker 1: They're not having the same kind of opportunities that the

749
00:44:40,120 --> 00:44:43,439
Speaker 1: boys are having. I don't think that's fair, and that's

750
00:44:43,440 --> 00:44:47,200
Speaker 1: what sexism is. And he said, well, can we keep

751
00:44:47,200 --> 00:44:49,480
Speaker 1: reading the book? You know, like I sais a deal breaker?

752
00:44:51,080 --> 00:44:53,239
Speaker 1: And I said, yeah, everything, keep reading it. But I

753
00:44:53,360 --> 00:44:56,200
Speaker 1: just wanted to point this out because it was bothering me.

754
00:44:56,920 --> 00:45:00,200
Speaker 1: So we kept reading together. But a few page is

755
00:45:00,239 --> 00:45:03,080
Speaker 1: in he stopped me and he said, Mom, there's that

756
00:45:03,200 --> 00:45:07,799
Speaker 1: stuff again. And now he because I had described it

757
00:45:07,840 --> 00:45:10,279
Speaker 1: and explained it, he was able to see it and

758
00:45:10,400 --> 00:45:12,840
Speaker 1: name it. And in the same way, we could have

759
00:45:12,880 --> 00:45:16,160
Speaker 1: been having a conversation about the racism in a book

760
00:45:16,360 --> 00:45:19,560
Speaker 1: or on the television or you know, have you noticed

761
00:45:19,600 --> 00:45:24,919
Speaker 1: that when they talk about criminals, they always show black people, um,

762
00:45:24,960 --> 00:45:27,480
Speaker 1: but when they're white criminals, they don't show their faces

763
00:45:27,800 --> 00:45:30,400
Speaker 1: as an example, you know, there are things that you

764
00:45:30,480 --> 00:45:33,600
Speaker 1: can observe and point out to help your child think

765
00:45:33,719 --> 00:45:39,919
Speaker 1: critically about those questions, and those conversations not just one

766
00:45:40,040 --> 00:45:44,680
Speaker 1: but over time helped them to ask the question, well,

767
00:45:44,719 --> 00:45:48,000
Speaker 1: who who is missing from this picture? You know, why

768
00:45:48,280 --> 00:45:51,120
Speaker 1: is this happening in this way? And then what could

769
00:45:51,120 --> 00:45:56,200
Speaker 1: we do about it? I need that as much as

770
00:45:56,200 --> 00:45:59,160
Speaker 1: my kids. So I'm glad that they model because we're

771
00:45:59,200 --> 00:46:03,359
Speaker 1: my son and I are doing this together starting three

772
00:46:03,440 --> 00:46:07,000
Speaker 1: weeks ago or four weeks ago, and I feel all

773
00:46:07,080 --> 00:46:12,040
Speaker 1: this pressure and the importance and the I feel it,

774
00:46:12,120 --> 00:46:15,680
Speaker 1: but I also am hopeful because I'm like, Okay, I

775
00:46:15,680 --> 00:46:17,120
Speaker 1: don't have to get this right, and I had a

776
00:46:17,200 --> 00:46:21,160
Speaker 1: lifetime to practice and to you know, I have a

777
00:46:21,200 --> 00:46:27,680
Speaker 1: lifetime to seize opportunities and and and try things. And

778
00:46:28,640 --> 00:46:32,480
Speaker 1: I really am so encouraged by everyone saying or a

779
00:46:32,480 --> 00:46:34,520
Speaker 1: lot of people saying it's okay if you mess up

780
00:46:34,640 --> 00:46:38,600
Speaker 1: or you're stumbling at first, and that is really something

781
00:46:38,640 --> 00:46:42,400
Speaker 1: that's important to remember. You can always come back and say,

782
00:46:42,640 --> 00:46:45,080
Speaker 1: you know, I was thinking about that conversation we had

783
00:46:45,160 --> 00:46:48,359
Speaker 1: yesterday and I said this, but you know, I've been

784
00:46:48,360 --> 00:46:50,799
Speaker 1: thinking more about it, and what I really meant was that,

785
00:46:51,400 --> 00:46:55,080
Speaker 1: So let me tell you more about that, right right?

786
00:46:55,440 --> 00:47:00,040
Speaker 1: That helps take the pressure off parents, doesn't It doesn't it?

787
00:47:01,360 --> 00:47:05,040
Speaker 1: Just as we're closing out, I just I want to say,

788
00:47:05,200 --> 00:47:07,960
Speaker 1: you know, with with Black Lives Matter leading the charge

789
00:47:09,000 --> 00:47:12,440
Speaker 1: and so many citizens are running the other way on

790
00:47:12,520 --> 00:47:16,359
Speaker 1: the conveyor belt, which is amazing. Your twenty three year

791
00:47:16,400 --> 00:47:18,959
Speaker 1: old book about race, you guys, I'm gonna say that again.

792
00:47:19,000 --> 00:47:22,279
Speaker 1: Twenty three years ago you wrote the book Why are

793
00:47:22,280 --> 00:47:25,120
Speaker 1: All the Black Kids Sitting Together in the Cafeteria and

794
00:47:25,200 --> 00:47:28,680
Speaker 1: Other Conversations about Race, which which got an update again

795
00:47:28,719 --> 00:47:31,040
Speaker 1: in two thousands seventeen. It's been on the bestseller list

796
00:47:31,080 --> 00:47:35,720
Speaker 1: now for several weeks. So your assessment of the landscape today,

797
00:47:35,800 --> 00:47:39,200
Speaker 1: how do you view the future? Do you have hope? Like,

798
00:47:39,680 --> 00:47:43,480
Speaker 1: how are you feeling about that? Your book is it's

799
00:47:43,560 --> 00:47:46,600
Speaker 1: huge right now? Well, of course, that's you know, if

800
00:47:46,600 --> 00:47:48,279
Speaker 1: you write a book, you want people to read it.

801
00:47:48,440 --> 00:47:53,080
Speaker 1: So as an author, it's very exciting to see that

802
00:47:53,160 --> 00:47:56,160
Speaker 1: people are indeed buying it, and hopefully they're buying it

803
00:47:56,360 --> 00:47:59,040
Speaker 1: so that they can read it um. And so that

804
00:47:59,520 --> 00:48:02,800
Speaker 1: isn't rging to me because I think there are um

805
00:48:03,040 --> 00:48:05,680
Speaker 1: tools in my book that people will be able to

806
00:48:05,719 --> 00:48:08,719
Speaker 1: put to use if they read it. So that's encouraging.

807
00:48:09,200 --> 00:48:12,640
Speaker 1: But I also think that it's really important um and

808
00:48:12,840 --> 00:48:14,800
Speaker 1: not just my book. There are a bunch of books

809
00:48:14,840 --> 00:48:17,040
Speaker 1: dealing with the topic of race and racism on the

810
00:48:17,080 --> 00:48:20,360
Speaker 1: bestseller list right now, and that is a sign of

811
00:48:20,400 --> 00:48:23,640
Speaker 1: hope in the sense that people are taking seriously the

812
00:48:23,800 --> 00:48:27,319
Speaker 1: need to educate themselves. You know, if there's something you

813
00:48:27,360 --> 00:48:31,359
Speaker 1: didn't know, then maybe it's time to educate yourself about it. Um.

814
00:48:31,440 --> 00:48:34,680
Speaker 1: But once you have that information, you have to put

815
00:48:34,680 --> 00:48:38,680
Speaker 1: it into action. And it is of course the case

816
00:48:38,960 --> 00:48:41,759
Speaker 1: that when people are just starting out, they're going to

817
00:48:41,920 --> 00:48:45,320
Speaker 1: make mistakes. I told you I started teaching my course

818
00:48:45,360 --> 00:48:47,960
Speaker 1: on the psychology of racism when I was twenty six

819
00:48:48,040 --> 00:48:52,080
Speaker 1: years old. I made mistakes. But if we wait for perfection,

820
00:48:52,160 --> 00:48:55,279
Speaker 1: we will never get started. And so I think it's

821
00:48:55,320 --> 00:48:59,520
Speaker 1: really important to just you know, risk some discomfort to

822
00:48:59,600 --> 00:49:04,840
Speaker 1: have those conversations, risk some discomfort to engage in dialogue

823
00:49:04,840 --> 00:49:07,719
Speaker 1: with maybe folks you don't usually talk to. UM, and

824
00:49:07,760 --> 00:49:11,120
Speaker 1: then think about what actions can I take to interrupt

825
00:49:11,160 --> 00:49:18,720
Speaker 1: the cycle of racism that's critical. Wow, Wow, Dr Tatum,

826
00:49:18,960 --> 00:49:24,479
Speaker 1: you are I have I'm just so blown away And

827
00:49:24,560 --> 00:49:26,879
Speaker 1: this was such a gift. Um, your time was such

828
00:49:26,920 --> 00:49:30,120
Speaker 1: a gift to me and to all the Katie's Crib listeners.

829
00:49:30,760 --> 00:49:33,160
Speaker 1: If there any final thoughts or piece of advice and

830
00:49:33,200 --> 00:49:36,680
Speaker 1: where can listeners find you? Well, I have a website

831
00:49:37,200 --> 00:49:42,040
Speaker 1: Beverly Danielle Tatum dot com and certainly UM much of

832
00:49:42,080 --> 00:49:45,360
Speaker 1: the resources, many of the resources that we talked about

833
00:49:45,640 --> 00:49:48,360
Speaker 1: their links on my website that will help people certainly

834
00:49:48,360 --> 00:49:51,600
Speaker 1: find my books, but also some of the conversations that

835
00:49:51,680 --> 00:49:55,920
Speaker 1: have been recorded in hopefully that can be a useful resource.

836
00:49:57,120 --> 00:50:00,360
Speaker 1: It is thank you so much, Dr it Him for

837
00:50:00,400 --> 00:50:03,560
Speaker 1: coming on Katie's Crib. O Katie, thank you for having me.

838
00:50:05,200 --> 00:50:07,480
Speaker 1: I want to take a minute and just really say

839
00:50:07,480 --> 00:50:10,160
Speaker 1: thank you guys so much for listening, and thank you

840
00:50:10,400 --> 00:50:13,239
Speaker 1: to all the resilient moms out there and caregivers and

841
00:50:13,360 --> 00:50:16,600
Speaker 1: justice warriors who are committed to creating a better, fairer future.

842
00:50:17,280 --> 00:50:20,600
Speaker 1: I'm so humbled and I'm just so inspired by you,

843
00:50:20,760 --> 00:50:23,879
Speaker 1: and I sincerely appreciate the opportunity to use Katie's Crib

844
00:50:23,920 --> 00:50:26,920
Speaker 1: to learn and grow and take care of one another together.

845
00:50:27,640 --> 00:50:29,440
Speaker 1: So please keep sending in all of your questions and

846
00:50:29,480 --> 00:50:38,839
Speaker 1: your stories to Katie's Crib at Shonda land dot com.

847
00:50:38,920 --> 00:50:41,400
Speaker 1: Katie's Crib is a production of iHeart Radio and Shonda

848
00:50:41,440 --> 00:50:44,439
Speaker 1: Land Audio. For more podcasts from I Heeart Radio, visit

849
00:50:44,480 --> 00:50:47,319
Speaker 1: the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you

850
00:50:47,400 --> 00:50:53,000
Speaker 1: listen to your favorite shows. I Want, You Want