1 00:00:01,440 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: Hey, folks, Kate Judson here. I'm a lawyer and the 2 00:00:04,200 --> 00:00:07,760 Speaker 1: executive director of the Center for Integrity and Forensic Sciences. 3 00:00:09,520 --> 00:00:12,720 Speaker 1: We're back with another episode of Junk Science, a series 4 00:00:12,720 --> 00:00:16,000 Speaker 1: we first released in twenty twenty, but these stories are 5 00:00:16,160 --> 00:00:20,160 Speaker 1: just as relevant as ever. This week's episode focuses on 6 00:00:20,320 --> 00:00:24,360 Speaker 1: roadside drug tests, a highly unreliable method of drug testing. 7 00:00:25,239 --> 00:00:28,400 Speaker 1: The testing kits most police departments use cost about two 8 00:00:28,480 --> 00:00:32,200 Speaker 1: dollars apiece and are far from reliable. They often turn 9 00:00:32,280 --> 00:00:35,760 Speaker 1: up false positives and are used to coerce people to 10 00:00:35,760 --> 00:00:42,640 Speaker 1: plead guilty to crimes they did not commit. Like many 11 00:00:42,680 --> 00:00:45,320 Speaker 1: of the other junk sciences we've learned about in the series, 12 00:00:45,600 --> 00:00:49,360 Speaker 1: roadside drug tests are often thought of as valid and reliable, 13 00:00:49,680 --> 00:00:52,400 Speaker 1: but they just aren't. And these cases are a little 14 00:00:52,400 --> 00:00:56,280 Speaker 1: different because they're not being used as evidence at trial, 15 00:00:56,720 --> 00:01:01,200 Speaker 1: where it's slightly but not very much easier for lawyers 16 00:01:01,240 --> 00:01:05,720 Speaker 1: to challenge that conviction after the fact. Instead, they're used 17 00:01:05,760 --> 00:01:10,160 Speaker 1: to coerce. Please. That's because folks who are locked up 18 00:01:10,280 --> 00:01:13,080 Speaker 1: and desperate to get out might take a plead of 19 00:01:13,160 --> 00:01:17,480 Speaker 1: probation so they can regain their freedom when the alternative 20 00:01:17,520 --> 00:01:20,320 Speaker 1: is waiting in jail to go to trial. You'll hear 21 00:01:20,360 --> 00:01:23,680 Speaker 1: in this episode how even a short jail stay can 22 00:01:23,880 --> 00:01:27,679 Speaker 1: ruin someone's life. If we care about justice and we 23 00:01:27,800 --> 00:01:31,200 Speaker 1: care about the truth, we can't use junk science to 24 00:01:31,280 --> 00:01:35,120 Speaker 1: lock people up. And that's especially true for folks who 25 00:01:35,240 --> 00:01:39,360 Speaker 1: haven't yet had trials, folks who are presumed innocent. 26 00:01:46,160 --> 00:01:49,280 Speaker 2: You're sitting in the passenger seat of your car, staring 27 00:01:49,320 --> 00:01:52,760 Speaker 2: out the window. Your boyfriend is driving in. You look 28 00:01:52,800 --> 00:01:55,680 Speaker 2: over at him. You can tell that he's getting tired. 29 00:01:55,720 --> 00:01:59,960 Speaker 2: It's been a long day. You left Louisiana five hours ago, 30 00:02:00,360 --> 00:02:04,840 Speaker 2: and he's been driving the entire time. You're going to Houston, 31 00:02:04,960 --> 00:02:06,880 Speaker 2: where he has an interview for a job on an 32 00:02:06,920 --> 00:02:10,120 Speaker 2: oil rig. You find the monotony of the drive to 33 00:02:10,160 --> 00:02:14,400 Speaker 2: be somewhat calming. It's a big difference from your usual 34 00:02:14,480 --> 00:02:17,720 Speaker 2: day to day of running around doing your job and 35 00:02:17,800 --> 00:02:21,000 Speaker 2: taking care of your teenage son who has special needs. 36 00:02:21,720 --> 00:02:24,840 Speaker 2: Of course, you love your kids and your job is great, 37 00:02:24,919 --> 00:02:28,000 Speaker 2: but for the first time in a while, you feel 38 00:02:28,040 --> 00:02:31,960 Speaker 2: yourself really relaxing, and you're happy to have nothing to 39 00:02:32,000 --> 00:02:34,680 Speaker 2: do or worry about for the next couple of days. 40 00:02:35,680 --> 00:02:38,280 Speaker 2: When you finally get to the motel in Houston, You're 41 00:02:38,280 --> 00:02:42,440 Speaker 2: both exhausted. You dump your suitcases at the foot of 42 00:02:42,480 --> 00:02:45,440 Speaker 2: the bed, and you're tempted to skip dinner and just 43 00:02:45,600 --> 00:02:48,320 Speaker 2: stay in for the rest of the night, but you 44 00:02:48,360 --> 00:02:50,160 Speaker 2: don't want your boyfriend to go to bed on an 45 00:02:50,200 --> 00:02:53,359 Speaker 2: empty stomach, so you both get back in the car, 46 00:02:53,840 --> 00:02:56,680 Speaker 2: grab some hamburgers from a fast food drive through, and 47 00:02:57,160 --> 00:03:02,200 Speaker 2: then start heading straight back to the motel. Your boyfriend 48 00:03:02,280 --> 00:03:05,640 Speaker 2: rubs his eyes when he changes lanes, and out of 49 00:03:05,680 --> 00:03:10,400 Speaker 2: nowhere you see blue and red lights flashing behind your 50 00:03:10,440 --> 00:03:24,000 Speaker 2: car and a siren blaring. You look up and watching 51 00:03:24,080 --> 00:03:27,359 Speaker 2: the rear view mirror as a police officer slowly walks 52 00:03:27,440 --> 00:03:33,680 Speaker 2: up to the driver's side window, license and registration. You 53 00:03:33,800 --> 00:03:37,360 Speaker 2: rummage in the glove compartment for the registration. Well, what's 54 00:03:37,400 --> 00:03:42,280 Speaker 2: the problem, officer, your boyfriend asks, no signal wall changing lanes, 55 00:03:43,440 --> 00:03:46,680 Speaker 2: You hand the registration to your boyfriend, who in turn 56 00:03:46,760 --> 00:03:51,080 Speaker 2: hands it to the officer. License. The officer says again, 57 00:03:52,240 --> 00:03:58,440 Speaker 2: your boyfriend holds tight onto the steering wheel. I don't 58 00:03:58,480 --> 00:04:03,000 Speaker 2: have a license, sir. Please step out of the vehicle. 59 00:04:03,960 --> 00:04:08,080 Speaker 2: Your boyfriend gets out, closing the door behind him. The 60 00:04:08,120 --> 00:04:10,920 Speaker 2: officer sticks his head into the car window and looks around. 61 00:04:11,720 --> 00:04:15,960 Speaker 2: He never makes eye contact with you. Then the officer 62 00:04:16,080 --> 00:04:19,000 Speaker 2: steps away from your car and calls out to his partner, 63 00:04:19,240 --> 00:04:22,680 Speaker 2: who's sitting in the police car. There's a needle in here, 64 00:04:23,000 --> 00:04:29,279 Speaker 2: the officer says, excuse me, what are you talking about. 65 00:04:30,160 --> 00:04:33,320 Speaker 2: You have no idea what the officer thinks he saw, 66 00:04:34,320 --> 00:04:36,680 Speaker 2: but you certainly did not have any kind of needle 67 00:04:36,720 --> 00:04:41,200 Speaker 2: in your car. The cop ignores your question and walks 68 00:04:41,240 --> 00:04:44,280 Speaker 2: over to the passenger window. Ma'am, I'm going to need 69 00:04:44,320 --> 00:04:47,440 Speaker 2: your consent to search the car, and I'll tell you 70 00:04:47,520 --> 00:04:50,040 Speaker 2: right now. You don't consent, we're gonna be sitting here 71 00:04:50,040 --> 00:04:52,479 Speaker 2: a long time until we can get a canine out 72 00:04:52,480 --> 00:04:56,039 Speaker 2: here to sweep the car. You don't have anything to hide, 73 00:04:56,279 --> 00:05:00,159 Speaker 2: so you say, yeah, okay, go ahead. You stand on 74 00:05:00,200 --> 00:05:02,120 Speaker 2: the side of the road with your boyfriend in the 75 00:05:02,200 --> 00:05:06,880 Speaker 2: thick Texas heat while both officers search the car. A 76 00:05:06,920 --> 00:05:10,480 Speaker 2: few minutes later, the first officer stands up straight. It 77 00:05:10,520 --> 00:05:14,080 Speaker 2: looks like he's pinching something between his index finger and 78 00:05:14,120 --> 00:05:17,240 Speaker 2: his thumb, and he's holding it up to the moonlight. 79 00:05:18,080 --> 00:05:19,960 Speaker 2: You can't see what it is, but you see that. 80 00:05:20,040 --> 00:05:23,400 Speaker 2: The officer says something to his partner, who then comes 81 00:05:23,440 --> 00:05:27,280 Speaker 2: over to you. Man, we have reason to believe that 82 00:05:27,360 --> 00:05:31,760 Speaker 2: there's crack cocaine in your car, the officer says. He 83 00:05:31,839 --> 00:05:35,159 Speaker 2: tells you both to put your hands behind your back. 84 00:05:36,279 --> 00:05:40,239 Speaker 2: He starts cuffing your boyfriend, and you're adrenaline starts pumping. 85 00:05:40,760 --> 00:05:43,640 Speaker 2: You're sweating now, and you can't tell if it's the 86 00:05:43,880 --> 00:05:47,640 Speaker 2: ninety degree heat or if it's pure nerves and anxiety. 87 00:05:47,960 --> 00:05:51,359 Speaker 2: As the officer tightens the cuffs painfully around your wrist. 88 00:05:52,360 --> 00:05:55,160 Speaker 2: You have the wrong idea here. I don't have drugs 89 00:05:55,160 --> 00:05:58,480 Speaker 2: in my car. I don't do drugs. I've never done drugs. 90 00:05:59,560 --> 00:06:02,880 Speaker 2: One off walks over to you and then takes you 91 00:06:02,960 --> 00:06:06,480 Speaker 2: to the police car. The other one opens up the trunk. 92 00:06:07,200 --> 00:06:10,120 Speaker 2: He takes out something that looks like a ziplock baggie, 93 00:06:10,160 --> 00:06:13,560 Speaker 2: then walks back over to you. He opens the bag 94 00:06:13,600 --> 00:06:17,440 Speaker 2: and pulls out a test tube. Then he takes what 95 00:06:17,480 --> 00:06:20,159 Speaker 2: he's been pinching between his fingers and drops it into 96 00:06:20,200 --> 00:06:24,680 Speaker 2: the tube. He shakes it around, looks at it. Then 97 00:06:24,720 --> 00:06:28,679 Speaker 2: he looks at you, and a wide grin creeps across 98 00:06:28,680 --> 00:06:32,719 Speaker 2: his face. He waves the tube right in front of 99 00:06:32,760 --> 00:06:36,960 Speaker 2: your nose. A liquid that seems to change from red 100 00:06:37,000 --> 00:06:39,600 Speaker 2: to blue and the flashing lights is dangled in front 101 00:06:39,640 --> 00:06:45,720 Speaker 2: of you. You're busted, ma'am, the cop says. The cops 102 00:06:45,760 --> 00:06:49,240 Speaker 2: take you to jail. Your boyfriend has charged with driving 103 00:06:49,279 --> 00:06:53,159 Speaker 2: without a license and is released soon after. But you 104 00:06:53,200 --> 00:06:55,680 Speaker 2: don't know that yet because you're placed in a tiny 105 00:06:55,720 --> 00:06:58,919 Speaker 2: holding cell with one other woman who tells you that 106 00:06:59,000 --> 00:07:03,600 Speaker 2: she murdered someone. You're feeling sick and you still haven't 107 00:07:03,640 --> 00:07:08,080 Speaker 2: eaten all day. You're terrified, but you're not just worried 108 00:07:08,120 --> 00:07:15,400 Speaker 2: about yourself. You're really worried about your son. Someone calls 109 00:07:15,440 --> 00:07:18,800 Speaker 2: your name from a thick plastic window that separates you 110 00:07:18,840 --> 00:07:21,600 Speaker 2: from the people working at the jail. You walk up 111 00:07:21,640 --> 00:07:24,280 Speaker 2: to the window and see a tired looking man on 112 00:07:24,320 --> 00:07:28,240 Speaker 2: the other side. He introduces himself as the court appointed 113 00:07:28,280 --> 00:07:32,880 Speaker 2: defense attorney. He tells you you're being charged for possession 114 00:07:32,920 --> 00:07:36,280 Speaker 2: of crack cocaine. Look, this is a felony, he says, 115 00:07:36,640 --> 00:07:43,440 Speaker 2: and you're facing two years in state prison. You're in disbelief. Jesus, 116 00:07:44,200 --> 00:07:47,880 Speaker 2: how is this possible. The attorney looks down at his 117 00:07:47,960 --> 00:07:51,680 Speaker 2: papers and says, look, you have a choice. It's not 118 00:07:51,880 --> 00:07:54,040 Speaker 2: much of a choice, but you do have a choice. 119 00:07:54,600 --> 00:07:57,600 Speaker 2: The prosecutor is offering you a plea deal. If you 120 00:07:57,680 --> 00:08:00,800 Speaker 2: plead guilty, you'll get a forty five five day sentence 121 00:08:00,840 --> 00:08:02,960 Speaker 2: in jail, and you'll probably only have to serve half 122 00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:07,440 Speaker 2: of that. You say, I'm innocent. I'm not going to 123 00:08:07,480 --> 00:08:12,040 Speaker 2: plead guilty to something I didn't do. The defense attorney 124 00:08:12,480 --> 00:08:15,120 Speaker 2: kind of leans in a little bit and looks at 125 00:08:15,120 --> 00:08:19,320 Speaker 2: you through his wire rim glasses and says, ma'am, they 126 00:08:19,600 --> 00:08:22,000 Speaker 2: tested the substance they found on the floor of your 127 00:08:22,040 --> 00:08:25,240 Speaker 2: car and it came up positive for crack cocaine. So 128 00:08:25,880 --> 00:08:29,080 Speaker 2: according to this test, there was crack in your car. 129 00:08:29,680 --> 00:08:32,920 Speaker 2: Now you can wait until the forensics lab runs another 130 00:08:33,000 --> 00:08:36,080 Speaker 2: test on it, but there's a huge backlog. You could 131 00:08:36,120 --> 00:08:39,679 Speaker 2: wait months for that test to come back. You begin 132 00:08:39,800 --> 00:08:43,560 Speaker 2: to physically shake. You're on the verge of bursting out 133 00:08:43,640 --> 00:08:46,160 Speaker 2: in tears right there in the middle of the jail. 134 00:08:47,600 --> 00:08:51,760 Speaker 2: You think about your options. Months in jail, waiting for 135 00:08:51,840 --> 00:08:55,920 Speaker 2: the evidence that will prove your innocent, two years in 136 00:08:55,960 --> 00:08:59,560 Speaker 2: prison if it doesn't, And can you even trust the 137 00:08:59,640 --> 00:09:02,000 Speaker 2: tests if the one that they did on the side 138 00:09:02,040 --> 00:09:04,320 Speaker 2: of the road was clearly wrong. I mean there was 139 00:09:04,360 --> 00:09:08,280 Speaker 2: no crack in your car. You think about your youngest son, 140 00:09:08,520 --> 00:09:11,280 Speaker 2: and you're terrified of what's going to happen if you 141 00:09:11,320 --> 00:09:15,720 Speaker 2: can't get out of your fast. He really needs you. 142 00:09:15,720 --> 00:09:19,559 Speaker 2: You work managing an apartment complex. Part of your compensation 143 00:09:19,880 --> 00:09:21,480 Speaker 2: is that you get to live in an apartment in 144 00:09:21,520 --> 00:09:24,360 Speaker 2: the building that you manage. It at least allows you 145 00:09:24,440 --> 00:09:27,920 Speaker 2: to stay close to your son at all times. Right now, 146 00:09:27,960 --> 00:09:30,640 Speaker 2: he's with his dad. But if you're stuck here for 147 00:09:30,760 --> 00:09:35,480 Speaker 2: months or god forbid, years, you'll lose your job, your home, 148 00:09:36,000 --> 00:09:39,520 Speaker 2: the safety net for you and your kid. The decision 149 00:09:39,559 --> 00:09:42,960 Speaker 2: is basically made for you. You can't sit in prison 150 00:09:43,000 --> 00:09:46,480 Speaker 2: for months. You have to get out and get out 151 00:09:46,520 --> 00:09:50,520 Speaker 2: as quickly as you can. The next thing you know, 152 00:09:51,320 --> 00:09:55,040 Speaker 2: you're standing in front of a judge. You can't stop trembling, 153 00:09:56,080 --> 00:10:02,679 Speaker 2: You're weeping uncontrollably. You can barely breathe. Somehow, When the 154 00:10:02,760 --> 00:10:06,679 Speaker 2: judge asks you, how do you plead, you force out 155 00:10:06,720 --> 00:10:13,600 Speaker 2: the words I plead guilty. They take you back to 156 00:10:13,640 --> 00:10:16,720 Speaker 2: a cell where you'll serve twenty one days of the 157 00:10:16,760 --> 00:10:20,760 Speaker 2: forty five day sentence you were given. The prosecutor files 158 00:10:20,760 --> 00:10:23,360 Speaker 2: a motion for the evidence in your case to be destroyed. 159 00:10:24,440 --> 00:10:28,120 Speaker 2: After twenty one days, you're let out of jail. Your 160 00:10:28,160 --> 00:10:32,840 Speaker 2: worst fears have been realized. You've been fired, you've been 161 00:10:32,960 --> 00:10:36,040 Speaker 2: kicked out of your apartment. You don't know where most 162 00:10:36,080 --> 00:10:39,679 Speaker 2: of your belongings are, and you don't know where to turn. 163 00:10:43,960 --> 00:10:46,480 Speaker 2: The story you just heard is based on the true 164 00:10:46,559 --> 00:10:50,600 Speaker 2: events of Amy Albritton's wrongful conviction that resulted from a 165 00:10:50,760 --> 00:10:56,240 Speaker 2: roadside drug test. Somehow, the prosecutor's order to destroy the 166 00:10:56,320 --> 00:11:01,720 Speaker 2: evidence never got signed off. On substance they found in 167 00:11:01,760 --> 00:11:05,479 Speaker 2: her car that they claim tested positive for crack cocaine, 168 00:11:06,400 --> 00:11:11,000 Speaker 2: It turned out to be a food crumb. Based on 169 00:11:11,120 --> 00:11:16,040 Speaker 2: the junk science of roadside drug testing, the steady life 170 00:11:16,040 --> 00:11:19,920 Speaker 2: that Amy built for herself and her family was completely 171 00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:26,920 Speaker 2: turned upside down, and Amy isn't the only one. I'm 172 00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:30,920 Speaker 2: Josh Dubin, civil rights and criminal defense attorney, an innocent 173 00:11:31,040 --> 00:11:35,000 Speaker 2: ambassador to the Innocence Project in New York. Today, on 174 00:11:35,120 --> 00:11:42,080 Speaker 2: wrongful Conviction junk Science, we explore roadside drug testing. Turns out, 175 00:11:42,480 --> 00:11:46,480 Speaker 2: these faulty tests, which cost police departments two dollars a 176 00:11:46,480 --> 00:11:50,640 Speaker 2: piece or less, are widely used across the United States. 177 00:11:51,400 --> 00:11:54,480 Speaker 2: They cause countless people to plead guilty to crimes they 178 00:11:54,520 --> 00:11:59,480 Speaker 2: didn't commit. These tests continue to be used despite scientific 179 00:11:59,559 --> 00:12:15,040 Speaker 2: evidence that proves just how ineffective they are. In nineteen 180 00:12:15,160 --> 00:12:18,200 Speaker 2: seventy three, during the height of the War on Drugs 181 00:12:18,240 --> 00:12:21,559 Speaker 2: in the United States, a chemist by the name of L. J. 182 00:12:21,800 --> 00:12:25,840 Speaker 2: Scott Jr. Was tasked with creating a test that could 183 00:12:25,880 --> 00:12:30,920 Speaker 2: confirm the presence of cocaine. Now, Scott was already aware 184 00:12:31,080 --> 00:12:34,520 Speaker 2: of one chemical that was being used to test for cocaine, 185 00:12:34,720 --> 00:12:39,240 Speaker 2: but the problem was it was highly unreliable. This faulty 186 00:12:39,320 --> 00:12:42,240 Speaker 2: test was made up of a pink liquid, a chemical 187 00:12:42,320 --> 00:12:47,800 Speaker 2: called cobalt thiocyanate. When cocaine was added to this pink liquid, 188 00:12:48,040 --> 00:12:52,080 Speaker 2: it turned blue. And so the thinking went, whenever the 189 00:12:52,120 --> 00:12:55,079 Speaker 2: pink liquid turns blue, we can know if there is 190 00:12:55,160 --> 00:13:00,360 Speaker 2: cocaine present. But the problem was that it wasn't only cocaine, 191 00:13:00,440 --> 00:13:03,960 Speaker 2: but plenty of other substances that could also turn this 192 00:13:04,120 --> 00:13:08,120 Speaker 2: pink chemical blue. So Scott set out to work on 193 00:13:08,160 --> 00:13:12,559 Speaker 2: creating a more accurate test. He experimented with other chemicals, 194 00:13:12,720 --> 00:13:15,800 Speaker 2: and finally he came up with a three step test. 195 00:13:16,880 --> 00:13:21,160 Speaker 2: Here's how it worked. A small sealable bag contained three 196 00:13:21,280 --> 00:13:26,479 Speaker 2: vials of chemicals. First, the substance suspected to be cocaine 197 00:13:26,960 --> 00:13:29,920 Speaker 2: was added to the first vial that contained the same 198 00:13:30,040 --> 00:13:35,199 Speaker 2: pink chemical as the original test, cobalt thiocyanate. If that 199 00:13:35,360 --> 00:13:40,400 Speaker 2: term blue it meant the substance might be cocaine. Then 200 00:13:40,800 --> 00:13:43,480 Speaker 2: the vial was placed into the small bag with the 201 00:13:43,520 --> 00:13:47,480 Speaker 2: other two vials. The first vial was broken open so 202 00:13:47,600 --> 00:13:50,679 Speaker 2: the liquid contents would leave the vial and sit at 203 00:13:50,720 --> 00:13:55,160 Speaker 2: the bottom of the transparent bag. Then the second vial 204 00:13:55,160 --> 00:13:59,280 Speaker 2: would be broken open. This vial contained a second chemical, 205 00:14:00,040 --> 00:14:03,920 Speaker 2: hydrochloric acid, that was supposed to mix with the first 206 00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:08,760 Speaker 2: chemical and turn the substance pink again. Then the third 207 00:14:08,840 --> 00:14:13,800 Speaker 2: vial would be broken. This final vial was filled with chloroform. 208 00:14:14,120 --> 00:14:16,480 Speaker 2: If the liquid mixture at the bottom of the bag 209 00:14:16,800 --> 00:14:20,680 Speaker 2: split into two layers so that a pink liquid floated 210 00:14:20,720 --> 00:14:24,400 Speaker 2: to the top and blue sank to the bottom, Scott 211 00:14:24,440 --> 00:14:30,360 Speaker 2: said this confirmed that the substance being tested was indeed cocaine. 212 00:14:30,440 --> 00:14:33,480 Speaker 2: After working on the test for nine months, Scott was 213 00:14:33,600 --> 00:14:37,160 Speaker 2: so sure of it that he declared the method proposed 214 00:14:37,200 --> 00:14:42,200 Speaker 2: herein is almost impossible to misinterpret. It is highly sensitive 215 00:14:42,280 --> 00:14:47,920 Speaker 2: and specific. Officers started carrying these portable roadside drug tests 216 00:14:47,960 --> 00:14:51,200 Speaker 2: on them while they patrolled neighborhoods and pulled people over 217 00:14:51,280 --> 00:14:55,520 Speaker 2: for traffic violations. They started using the tests on people 218 00:14:55,560 --> 00:14:59,640 Speaker 2: suspected of possessing drugs, and the arrest started flooding in. 219 00:15:00,880 --> 00:15:03,840 Speaker 2: But this test turned out to be not quite as 220 00:15:03,880 --> 00:15:08,680 Speaker 2: full proof as Scott thought. A study by toxicologists found 221 00:15:08,720 --> 00:15:12,640 Speaker 2: that the three vile tests would also show positive results 222 00:15:12,720 --> 00:15:18,080 Speaker 2: for substances other than cocaine. Lytocane, for example, a common 223 00:15:18,160 --> 00:15:21,320 Speaker 2: numbing agent found in many first aid kits used to 224 00:15:21,360 --> 00:15:27,240 Speaker 2: soothe cuts and burns, also tested positive. Nevertheless, Scott started 225 00:15:27,280 --> 00:15:30,680 Speaker 2: his own company that sold drug test kits to law enforcement. 226 00:15:31,400 --> 00:15:36,560 Speaker 2: This company still exists today, and interestingly enough, he stopped 227 00:15:36,600 --> 00:15:40,800 Speaker 2: selling the kits with the three vile process. Instead, he 228 00:15:40,880 --> 00:15:44,080 Speaker 2: went back to the one step process, the test with 229 00:15:44,440 --> 00:15:48,040 Speaker 2: just the pink liquid that was already known to be faulty, 230 00:15:48,440 --> 00:15:52,200 Speaker 2: and to test positive for so many other substances. He 231 00:15:52,360 --> 00:15:55,600 Speaker 2: did this so that he could sell them for less money, 232 00:15:56,160 --> 00:16:01,000 Speaker 2: and they were a hit, and he expanded beyond cocaine tests. 233 00:16:01,680 --> 00:16:07,360 Speaker 2: His company also sells tests for opiates, MDMA, marijuana, LSD, 234 00:16:07,720 --> 00:16:11,920 Speaker 2: bath salts, and meth amphetamine. His website boasts that the 235 00:16:11,960 --> 00:16:15,840 Speaker 2: tests coming easy to use, cheap packaging that prevents officers 236 00:16:15,840 --> 00:16:20,400 Speaker 2: from cutting their fingers while breaking the bials. When interviewed 237 00:16:20,400 --> 00:16:23,720 Speaker 2: by reporters from Pro Publica, Scott said that he had 238 00:16:23,840 --> 00:16:27,440 Speaker 2: no idea that these tests alone could send people to prison, 239 00:16:28,280 --> 00:16:34,760 Speaker 2: but indeed they were countless innocent people, including Amy Albritton, 240 00:16:35,400 --> 00:16:40,560 Speaker 2: ended up convicted based on cheap, highly flawed roadside tests 241 00:16:41,080 --> 00:16:42,040 Speaker 2: just like these. 242 00:16:46,200 --> 00:16:48,200 Speaker 3: Now, the problem with the drug kit is that these 243 00:16:48,240 --> 00:16:52,720 Speaker 3: things are incredibly unreliable, and so they come up positive 244 00:16:52,840 --> 00:16:57,800 Speaker 3: for things like chocolate, like cleaning supplies like aspirin, like sugar, 245 00:16:58,040 --> 00:17:02,720 Speaker 3: weight gain powder, candle, wax, drywall, so sand. They all 246 00:17:02,720 --> 00:17:05,120 Speaker 3: come back and test positive for narcotics. Because these things 247 00:17:05,119 --> 00:17:07,280 Speaker 3: are very unreliable and they're not supposed to be used 248 00:17:07,359 --> 00:17:12,480 Speaker 3: specifically for actually getting a conviction, but many people plead 249 00:17:12,640 --> 00:17:14,480 Speaker 3: in the system to never get to a trial, and 250 00:17:14,520 --> 00:17:17,439 Speaker 3: these are used as the only evidence to actually obtain 251 00:17:17,440 --> 00:17:19,840 Speaker 3: a conviction. That's what happened in Amy's case. 252 00:17:20,680 --> 00:17:24,080 Speaker 2: On our show today, we're talking to Greg Gloud. Greg 253 00:17:24,280 --> 00:17:29,439 Speaker 2: is a policy fellow at Americans for Prosperity Now. Americans 254 00:17:29,440 --> 00:17:34,200 Speaker 2: for Prosperity is a grassroots organization that educates citizens about 255 00:17:34,359 --> 00:17:38,320 Speaker 2: policy issues at the local, state, and national level, and 256 00:17:38,440 --> 00:17:41,320 Speaker 2: one of the issues that Greg works on is criminal 257 00:17:41,480 --> 00:17:44,600 Speaker 2: justice reform. So I want to go into detail about 258 00:17:44,680 --> 00:17:48,320 Speaker 2: these drug testing kits, walk us through some of the 259 00:17:48,440 --> 00:17:51,919 Speaker 2: issues associated with these tests. It sounds like there are 260 00:17:52,040 --> 00:17:53,560 Speaker 2: quite a few of them. 261 00:17:54,080 --> 00:17:56,960 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I mean so, there are a variety of 262 00:17:57,000 --> 00:17:59,000 Speaker 3: issues that go along with drug test kits, and there's 263 00:17:59,000 --> 00:18:02,239 Speaker 3: so many areas in that chain of sequence, from you know, 264 00:18:02,359 --> 00:18:05,240 Speaker 3: finding the substance to actually testing it that can go wrong. 265 00:18:05,760 --> 00:18:08,159 Speaker 3: And so first and foremost is actually training. And so 266 00:18:08,880 --> 00:18:11,080 Speaker 3: it seems very easy. You drop something in a vial 267 00:18:11,160 --> 00:18:12,560 Speaker 3: and you test it and see if it turns a 268 00:18:12,560 --> 00:18:14,200 Speaker 3: different color, and if it does, then it's supposed to 269 00:18:14,240 --> 00:18:17,760 Speaker 3: be drugs. But it's not that simple, and so officers 270 00:18:17,760 --> 00:18:20,640 Speaker 3: have to be trained accordingly on how these work. And 271 00:18:21,119 --> 00:18:23,840 Speaker 3: the problem is a lot of different substances actually change 272 00:18:23,840 --> 00:18:25,719 Speaker 3: the color. And so the way that the thought process 273 00:18:25,720 --> 00:18:27,520 Speaker 3: is supposed to go about this is if it's not 274 00:18:27,560 --> 00:18:30,440 Speaker 3: a drug, the substance shouldn't change in there. However, a 275 00:18:30,480 --> 00:18:33,399 Speaker 3: lot of substances actually make that color go different, and 276 00:18:33,440 --> 00:18:36,520 Speaker 3: so you have these situations where officers aren't properly trained 277 00:18:36,560 --> 00:18:38,760 Speaker 3: on how to use them, they break the different vials 278 00:18:38,760 --> 00:18:41,600 Speaker 3: in the wrong way. It could be cold outside, the 279 00:18:41,640 --> 00:18:46,800 Speaker 3: temperature changes different things, the chemicals might be expired within them. 280 00:18:46,960 --> 00:18:48,680 Speaker 3: There's a lot of different ways that this can go wrong. 281 00:18:48,760 --> 00:18:51,480 Speaker 3: But even if you do everything correctly, everything right. The 282 00:18:51,520 --> 00:18:54,080 Speaker 3: officer has been properly trained, and he's one of the 283 00:18:54,080 --> 00:18:56,639 Speaker 3: best you know at actually utilizing this. He was a 284 00:18:56,680 --> 00:18:59,719 Speaker 3: former chemist, let's just say, the most you know crazy 285 00:18:59,720 --> 00:19:02,160 Speaker 3: since area where he knew exactly how to do this. 286 00:19:02,520 --> 00:19:06,320 Speaker 3: There are so many different non controlled substances that actually 287 00:19:06,400 --> 00:19:09,080 Speaker 3: test positive for drugs and change that substance that look 288 00:19:09,119 --> 00:19:12,040 Speaker 3: like narcotics that it makes it impossible to really verify 289 00:19:12,119 --> 00:19:13,199 Speaker 3: if this is a drug or not. 290 00:19:13,880 --> 00:19:16,399 Speaker 2: And let's be honest, most of these officers are not 291 00:19:16,640 --> 00:19:21,800 Speaker 2: scientists or chemists. And there are many other problems, including 292 00:19:21,800 --> 00:19:25,320 Speaker 2: that these tests just aren't that easy to read. One 293 00:19:25,400 --> 00:19:28,720 Speaker 2: color can easily be interpreted as another. So what are 294 00:19:28,720 --> 00:19:29,720 Speaker 2: some examples of this? 295 00:19:30,840 --> 00:19:33,960 Speaker 3: For example, one test, it says that LSD should turn 296 00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:37,000 Speaker 3: all of black, but sugar turns dark brown. Now, if 297 00:19:37,040 --> 00:19:39,960 Speaker 3: you're on the side of the road pulling someone over 298 00:19:40,080 --> 00:19:44,120 Speaker 3: at night, there's lights flashing, things are going on, it's noisy, 299 00:19:44,280 --> 00:19:47,400 Speaker 3: it's hot. You're in South Texas, You're shaking this thing 300 00:19:47,440 --> 00:19:49,680 Speaker 3: around and you're looking at it and you're saying, is 301 00:19:49,720 --> 00:19:52,199 Speaker 3: that dark brown or is that all of black? I mean, 302 00:19:52,640 --> 00:19:55,480 Speaker 3: it's a pretty ridiculous question, but this can mean the 303 00:19:55,520 --> 00:20:00,639 Speaker 3: difference between someone being arrested or being let go because 304 00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:03,720 Speaker 3: of this slight color change. And then another test, another 305 00:20:03,840 --> 00:20:06,520 Speaker 3: very popular test, cocaine is supposed to be a deep 306 00:20:06,560 --> 00:20:10,680 Speaker 3: orange yellow, while salt is a strong orange. If you 307 00:20:10,680 --> 00:20:12,679 Speaker 3: can explain to me what a strong orange is compared 308 00:20:12,720 --> 00:20:15,639 Speaker 3: to a deep orange yellow, please let me know. 309 00:20:26,560 --> 00:20:29,840 Speaker 2: So I'm thinking of someone like Amy, who we talked 310 00:20:29,840 --> 00:20:33,399 Speaker 2: about at the beginning of this episode and whose story 311 00:20:33,520 --> 00:20:36,800 Speaker 2: was actually published in an article by Pro Publica. And 312 00:20:36,840 --> 00:20:39,080 Speaker 2: by the way, if you're interested, you can find this 313 00:20:39,240 --> 00:20:42,600 Speaker 2: article and others about these roadside drug tests in our 314 00:20:42,680 --> 00:20:47,119 Speaker 2: show notes. But someone like Amy is taking to jail 315 00:20:47,240 --> 00:20:52,680 Speaker 2: based on this flawed roadside test, and she's told by 316 00:20:52,720 --> 00:20:56,399 Speaker 2: her court appointed defense attorney that there's another test that 317 00:20:56,440 --> 00:20:59,600 Speaker 2: can verify the results. Of course, that test is going 318 00:20:59,640 --> 00:21:03,159 Speaker 2: to take quite some time, but she's told that nonetheless, 319 00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:05,960 Speaker 2: So tell us about that second test, the lab test. 320 00:21:06,680 --> 00:21:10,200 Speaker 2: Is it actually reliable And if it is reliable, why 321 00:21:10,240 --> 00:21:13,240 Speaker 2: aren't they using it to verify the results right away 322 00:21:13,320 --> 00:21:16,720 Speaker 2: instead of having, you know, people like Amy be presented 323 00:21:16,760 --> 00:21:21,679 Speaker 2: with this very precarious circumstance in which they're made to 324 00:21:21,720 --> 00:21:23,280 Speaker 2: wait around for a. 325 00:21:23,280 --> 00:21:26,879 Speaker 3: While with all these drug test kits, you know, and 326 00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:29,440 Speaker 3: it says it right on the box, they should be 327 00:21:29,600 --> 00:21:34,040 Speaker 3: verified by a forensics lab. And so most jurisdictions either 328 00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:37,240 Speaker 3: have a state lab and then also for a larger cities, 329 00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:39,760 Speaker 3: they'll have their own lab. So essentially what they do 330 00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:42,440 Speaker 3: is take the substance, heat it up a lot, break 331 00:21:42,520 --> 00:21:44,160 Speaker 3: it down to its elements, and then you can tell 332 00:21:44,160 --> 00:21:46,920 Speaker 3: from that with you know, pretty much one hundredercent certainty 333 00:21:46,960 --> 00:21:49,720 Speaker 3: that what it is is either narcotics or not. However, 334 00:21:50,080 --> 00:21:52,280 Speaker 3: most of the time it's not getting to that point. 335 00:21:52,640 --> 00:21:55,680 Speaker 3: A lot of places, you know in Texas Department Public 336 00:21:55,720 --> 00:21:58,520 Speaker 3: and Safety there just doesn't have the time and bandwidth 337 00:21:58,560 --> 00:22:01,639 Speaker 3: to actually verify a lot of the these cases. Some jurisdiction, 338 00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:04,480 Speaker 3: now Houston, after this story kind of broke, is now 339 00:22:04,520 --> 00:22:08,000 Speaker 3: not allowing for plea deals to be accepted without that verification. 340 00:22:08,080 --> 00:22:10,520 Speaker 3: But a lot of jurisdictions, preticuting small jurisdictions, we have 341 00:22:10,600 --> 00:22:13,440 Speaker 3: these major backlaws. People are playing within a couple of days, 342 00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:16,600 Speaker 3: and then these things aren't being verified. Back every case 343 00:22:16,640 --> 00:22:19,680 Speaker 3: can't get tested. With the amount and volume that we have. 344 00:22:19,880 --> 00:22:22,600 Speaker 3: There's one point six million arrests for drug offenses each 345 00:22:22,680 --> 00:22:25,119 Speaker 3: and every year, and if you try to verify and 346 00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:27,399 Speaker 3: test all these substances, you never get through it. And 347 00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:30,159 Speaker 3: so those are the problems. So the actual test, the 348 00:22:30,200 --> 00:22:33,960 Speaker 3: actual science that should be used here is not being 349 00:22:34,040 --> 00:22:37,879 Speaker 3: utilized because the criminal process stops within a couple of 350 00:22:37,920 --> 00:22:40,280 Speaker 3: days for most of these individuals, and then the plea happens. 351 00:22:40,960 --> 00:22:43,720 Speaker 2: So let's pause there for a second. Tell us about 352 00:22:43,760 --> 00:22:47,120 Speaker 2: the plea. Why does so many innocent people end up 353 00:22:47,240 --> 00:22:51,440 Speaker 2: pleading guilty once they're charged based on these faulty roadside 354 00:22:51,520 --> 00:22:52,320 Speaker 2: drug tests. 355 00:22:53,119 --> 00:22:55,959 Speaker 3: So plea deal is a negotiation, and so what it 356 00:22:56,040 --> 00:22:58,880 Speaker 3: is is, hey, I can give you ten years on this, 357 00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:01,679 Speaker 3: or you can take two instead of going to trial, 358 00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:04,760 Speaker 3: let's settle this today. And so that is very attractive 359 00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:06,840 Speaker 3: for a lot of people that are facing so much time, 360 00:23:07,119 --> 00:23:09,000 Speaker 3: and it really does get to a point where it's 361 00:23:09,119 --> 00:23:13,160 Speaker 3: quite coercive. Maybe they set your bail at five thousand dollars, 362 00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:15,120 Speaker 3: ten thousand dollars, you can't afford it, so you sit 363 00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:18,199 Speaker 3: in jail, and you're claiming your innocence. You're claiming your innocence. 364 00:23:18,240 --> 00:23:21,080 Speaker 3: Now the prosecute delays your case again, delays your case again. 365 00:23:21,359 --> 00:23:23,080 Speaker 3: We'll accept a forty five day deal, or we can 366 00:23:23,119 --> 00:23:24,760 Speaker 3: go to trial and maybe you'll get two years. And 367 00:23:24,800 --> 00:23:27,720 Speaker 3: you have an overworked public defender who has a huge 368 00:23:27,760 --> 00:23:29,800 Speaker 3: backlog of cases on their own and can't give you 369 00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:31,960 Speaker 3: the time of day because you can't afford your own attorney, 370 00:23:32,280 --> 00:23:34,080 Speaker 3: and so they're telling you take the plea, you have 371 00:23:34,160 --> 00:23:37,040 Speaker 3: no chance go through this, and you're still sitting in jail, 372 00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:39,119 Speaker 3: and sitting in jail, and jail's not a great place, 373 00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:42,080 Speaker 3: and jail it's hot or it's freezing cold, and you're 374 00:23:42,119 --> 00:23:45,320 Speaker 3: with other people that are actually, you know, dangerous criminals 375 00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:47,520 Speaker 3: in this place, and you're going through it, and you 376 00:23:47,560 --> 00:23:50,399 Speaker 3: start to think of this cost benefit analysis of do 377 00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:52,359 Speaker 3: I stay in here, take this and go, or do 378 00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:55,000 Speaker 3: I continue to fight this case of potentially risk You know, 379 00:23:55,080 --> 00:23:58,040 Speaker 3: multiple years are staying in here for another six to 380 00:23:58,119 --> 00:24:00,359 Speaker 3: eight months. You know the public defenders selling you the 381 00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:03,399 Speaker 3: backlog at that lab is twelve to eighteen months. You 382 00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:05,600 Speaker 3: know you can't get out for quite a while. You 383 00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:07,399 Speaker 3: know these are the types of fears and risk and 384 00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:10,240 Speaker 3: things people are going through in this process. And so 385 00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:12,879 Speaker 3: that's why folks like Amy and thousands of others across 386 00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:16,800 Speaker 3: the country have accepted plead deals even when they're actually innocent. 387 00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:21,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, and what's really tragic is that once these innocent 388 00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:25,840 Speaker 2: people plead guilty, whatever was used to convict them, you know, 389 00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:29,679 Speaker 2: whatever was taken from their car and dropped in one 390 00:24:29,720 --> 00:24:33,560 Speaker 2: of these biles that the police are saying tested positive 391 00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:37,679 Speaker 2: for a certain drug usually gets destroyed. So if they 392 00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:39,679 Speaker 2: ever want to get a hold of the evidence to 393 00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:42,720 Speaker 2: try to demonstrate that they actually pled guilty to something 394 00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:44,159 Speaker 2: they didn't do, they can't get it. 395 00:24:45,160 --> 00:24:47,200 Speaker 3: You're exactly right, you know, evidence in a lot of 396 00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:50,200 Speaker 3: these cases has been destroyed, and so we really don't 397 00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:52,520 Speaker 3: know how many people have been wrongfully convicted because you 398 00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:55,000 Speaker 3: may not be able to verify the results. I know 399 00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:58,159 Speaker 3: Pro Publica did a study and they estimated about one 400 00:24:58,240 --> 00:25:01,560 Speaker 3: hundred thousand people a year probably plead guilty based upon 401 00:25:01,640 --> 00:25:04,080 Speaker 3: drug test kits alone. And so even if you have 402 00:25:04,119 --> 00:25:06,280 Speaker 3: a small air rate there, I mean, you're talking about 403 00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:09,400 Speaker 3: thousands of people potentially each year that actually had never 404 00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:11,600 Speaker 3: done anything wrong pleading guilty, and how many of those 405 00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:14,480 Speaker 3: cases do you actually have the destruction of evidence. Luckily, 406 00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:17,240 Speaker 3: for Amy, and it's tough to say Anything's lucky about 407 00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:20,520 Speaker 3: her case was that, you know, in Harris County, you 408 00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:23,240 Speaker 3: had a forensics lab that didn't want to destroy evidence, 409 00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:26,240 Speaker 3: and you also had so much volume that a motion 410 00:25:26,359 --> 00:25:28,320 Speaker 3: to destroy evidence is about at the bottom of the 411 00:25:28,359 --> 00:25:30,480 Speaker 3: barrel for a judge of signed. So that motion was 412 00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:33,040 Speaker 3: never signed in her case. And so six months later 413 00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:35,000 Speaker 3: this was actually tested and it was a food crump. 414 00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:39,160 Speaker 2: So because of what was really an oversight, the evidence 415 00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:42,600 Speaker 2: in her case was never destroyed. So they were able 416 00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:47,040 Speaker 2: to retest the evidence and find out that she's actually innocent, 417 00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:51,080 Speaker 2: and they sent a letter to Amy's house notifying her, 418 00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:53,840 Speaker 2: but it took a long time to actually get that letter, 419 00:25:54,440 --> 00:25:57,159 Speaker 2: so Amy went a long time not knowing that this 420 00:25:57,280 --> 00:25:59,120 Speaker 2: evidence had ever been retested. 421 00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:02,960 Speaker 3: Now, the problem with that, and the problem in Amy's case, 422 00:26:03,040 --> 00:26:05,280 Speaker 3: is that she had moved from her original address at 423 00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:07,080 Speaker 3: that time. And so for a lot of folks, I mean, 424 00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:10,000 Speaker 3: this has been going on for years. They can't find everyone, 425 00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:12,560 Speaker 3: and so these criminal convictions continue to linger. Some of 426 00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:15,040 Speaker 3: these individuals were homeless, Some of these are extreme poverty. 427 00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:17,800 Speaker 3: Some of them moved out far away and don't understand 428 00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:19,919 Speaker 3: that this is going on. And so a lot of 429 00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:22,320 Speaker 3: these cases are still unresolved to this day. And that's 430 00:26:22,359 --> 00:26:24,399 Speaker 3: exactly what happened to Amy's case. I think her initial 431 00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:27,800 Speaker 3: letter was sent in twenty fourteen. It took until you know, 432 00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:30,440 Speaker 3: two reporters from the New York Times to finally get 433 00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:33,399 Speaker 3: in touch with her and finally found her, you know, 434 00:26:33,520 --> 00:26:35,760 Speaker 3: six years later after this happened, she had already had 435 00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:39,159 Speaker 3: the criminal conviction on her record, She had lost everything 436 00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:41,040 Speaker 3: she was working at, like a convenience store, and then 437 00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:43,240 Speaker 3: kind of working for a slumlord after because she couldn't 438 00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:45,639 Speaker 3: get a job with a felony record. And so this 439 00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:48,920 Speaker 3: entire woman's life is ruined based upon the evidence of 440 00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:49,720 Speaker 3: this drug kit. 441 00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:53,639 Speaker 2: Look, I know exactly what you're talking about. I have 442 00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:56,919 Speaker 2: so many clients that when they get out, you know, 443 00:26:56,960 --> 00:27:02,240 Speaker 2: there's always you know, a celebration, and oftentimes it's covered 444 00:27:02,280 --> 00:27:07,359 Speaker 2: in the press. And after that first you know, twenty 445 00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:12,040 Speaker 2: four forty eight seventy two hours, you know, a different 446 00:27:12,119 --> 00:27:15,879 Speaker 2: kind of nightmare begins for them. You know, trying to 447 00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:21,160 Speaker 2: assimilate back into society is just you know, very very difficult. 448 00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:26,520 Speaker 2: The psychological harm that is done, you know, from somebody 449 00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:30,680 Speaker 2: being in a combined space and having to answer to 450 00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:33,800 Speaker 2: someone having to ask permission to do something, you know, 451 00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:36,240 Speaker 2: simple things like go to the bathroom or eat. It's 452 00:27:36,359 --> 00:27:43,520 Speaker 2: just it's hard to undo. And you know, this stain 453 00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:50,000 Speaker 2: of a wrongful incarceration, a wrongful conviction really sticks with you. 454 00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:52,199 Speaker 3: You know the Internet, things don't leave there, and so 455 00:27:52,359 --> 00:27:54,160 Speaker 3: you have this arrest record on that. You have these 456 00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:57,040 Speaker 3: convictions on there, and those linger with you for quite 457 00:27:57,080 --> 00:27:59,840 Speaker 3: a while. It costs thousands of dollars to get your 458 00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:03,080 Speaker 3: six sponge even if you're wrongfully convicted, And even if 459 00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:06,040 Speaker 3: you get that off your physical record, the digital record 460 00:28:06,160 --> 00:28:08,840 Speaker 3: still stays there. You have a mug shot that's out there. 461 00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:11,439 Speaker 3: You have this arrest record, you have the plea. You 462 00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:13,840 Speaker 3: have all these different documents and they can be scrubbed 463 00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:15,639 Speaker 3: from one thing, but they can pop up on another. 464 00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:19,600 Speaker 3: You'll have the same company have something called mugshots dot 465 00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:22,440 Speaker 3: com and then they'll have mugshots with the z dot 466 00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:23,800 Speaker 3: com and then you have to pay to get it 467 00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:25,879 Speaker 3: off of there. And so you know, I'm sure if 468 00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:28,600 Speaker 3: you looked up Amy Albritton and criminal history on a 469 00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:30,639 Speaker 3: lot of these different sites, you probably still see that 470 00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:33,840 Speaker 3: she was arrested, charge and convicted for a drug possession. 471 00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:35,880 Speaker 3: And if you're trying to get a job, you're trying 472 00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:39,480 Speaker 3: to get public funding, public housing, apply to school, all 473 00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:41,880 Speaker 3: these different things that's going to pop up, and sometimes 474 00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:45,239 Speaker 3: an employer or a college or something else will just 475 00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:47,680 Speaker 3: brush past you because that even though you were actually 476 00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:49,080 Speaker 3: exonerated of a crime. 477 00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:52,680 Speaker 2: So if these tests are so problematic, why is law 478 00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:56,200 Speaker 2: enforcement still using them? Why are they so so popular? 479 00:28:57,320 --> 00:28:59,880 Speaker 3: Well, they're incredibly popular. And the reason that they're so 480 00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:02,280 Speaker 3: pppler is because they're cheap and they allow and I'm 481 00:29:02,320 --> 00:29:05,800 Speaker 3: using this term loosely, for officers and proseures to gather 482 00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:08,720 Speaker 3: some sort of chemical evidence early on in the trial 483 00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:11,760 Speaker 3: and keep that churn of the criminal justice system going. 484 00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:14,160 Speaker 3: We had one point six million arrests for drug offenses 485 00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:17,280 Speaker 3: in twenty eighteen. If everyone went to trial on those things, 486 00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:19,920 Speaker 3: you'd never get through. It would take decades to get 487 00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:22,440 Speaker 3: through all the cases. And so what a field drug 488 00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:25,120 Speaker 3: test kit does is allow us to exhibitize the criminal 489 00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:28,200 Speaker 3: justice system and garner police from individuals at the earliest 490 00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:29,360 Speaker 3: stage in the process. 491 00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:33,440 Speaker 2: So do you think there's anything that can prevent these 492 00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:38,440 Speaker 2: roadside drug tests from resulting in innocent people getting convicted. 493 00:29:39,280 --> 00:29:42,640 Speaker 3: Because of investigative stories like we had in Atlanta, there 494 00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:44,360 Speaker 3: was an incredible one down there where they found that 495 00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:47,800 Speaker 3: one hundred and forty five people just in twenty seventeen 496 00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:51,040 Speaker 3: alone were wrongfully convicted of drug possession, and the ones 497 00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:53,719 Speaker 3: in Houston, and we had, you know, certain cases in 498 00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:57,520 Speaker 3: Arizona and Las Vegas. These investigative reports and these types 499 00:29:57,560 --> 00:30:00,120 Speaker 3: of podcasts that you guys are doing has brought more 500 00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:02,760 Speaker 3: information on the inaccuracies of these and actually inherit count. 501 00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:06,520 Speaker 3: They no longer allow for a plea to be entered 502 00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:09,240 Speaker 3: until it has been verified by a laboratory, and so 503 00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:12,600 Speaker 3: you are seeing changes across the country on how these 504 00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:16,320 Speaker 3: are utilized, But still in many jurisdictions, particularly smaller jurisdictions, 505 00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:20,040 Speaker 3: judges are taking these pleas and prosecutors are driving these 506 00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:22,040 Speaker 3: pleas without actually verifying the results. 507 00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:27,200 Speaker 2: These types of stories are extremely valuable, but the sad 508 00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:30,080 Speaker 2: truth is that these kinds of changes take a lot 509 00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:33,520 Speaker 2: of work and a lot of time. So in the meantime, 510 00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:37,120 Speaker 2: for the immediate future, is there anything else that can 511 00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:40,280 Speaker 2: be done to stop these kinds of wrongful convictions. 512 00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:44,440 Speaker 3: If you're about to accept a plea based upon this alone, 513 00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:48,440 Speaker 3: do not. Now, you do have newer technologies today that 514 00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:51,160 Speaker 3: actually are able to be more readily accurate and don't 515 00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:54,520 Speaker 3: produce as many false positives, but those are very expensive 516 00:30:54,560 --> 00:30:57,480 Speaker 3: and a lot of you know, smaller jurisdictions can't afford those, 517 00:30:57,520 --> 00:30:59,520 Speaker 3: and so that's a good thing, but that's going to 518 00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:01,840 Speaker 3: be you know, a long ways out, and so you know, 519 00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:04,240 Speaker 3: these drug test kits are still very prevalent. So this 520 00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:06,600 Speaker 3: just should not be used in the first place. 521 00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:13,160 Speaker 2: It's likely that stories like Amy's would have remained cloaked 522 00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:16,240 Speaker 2: in silence had it not been for journalists from Pro 523 00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:20,040 Speaker 2: Publica and The New York Times who did extensive reporting 524 00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:23,600 Speaker 2: to understand the depth of the problems that are associated 525 00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:28,240 Speaker 2: with roadside drug test kits. In fact, Amy likely wouldn't 526 00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:30,880 Speaker 2: have learned about the retesting of the evidence in her case, 527 00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:34,120 Speaker 2: which verified what she already knew that she was innocent, 528 00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:38,840 Speaker 2: if these reporters hadn't tracked her down. It's because of 529 00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:43,400 Speaker 2: these investigative journalists that the problems associated with drug test 530 00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:46,560 Speaker 2: kits came to light, and it's in a large part 531 00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:51,120 Speaker 2: due to their reporting that local municipalities across the country 532 00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:55,880 Speaker 2: are being pressured to change their regulations regarding roadside drug tests. 533 00:31:56,800 --> 00:31:59,840 Speaker 2: Oversight is being implemented to ensure that the work of 534 00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:04,480 Speaker 2: labse is reliable. There's increased scrutiny of plea deals for 535 00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:09,200 Speaker 2: drug offenses where there isn't evidence to support a person's guilt. 536 00:32:10,320 --> 00:32:14,680 Speaker 2: This kind of reporting is extraordinarily important for helping the 537 00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:19,600 Speaker 2: Innocence Project and lawyers like me identify cases where individuals 538 00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:23,000 Speaker 2: were wrongfully convicted, and to bring these cases to the 539 00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:28,000 Speaker 2: public's attention. So subscribe to news outlets like Pro Publica, 540 00:32:28,240 --> 00:32:31,800 Speaker 2: the Marshall Project, the New York Times, or wherever you 541 00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:36,400 Speaker 2: see quality journalism that is focused on exposing the shortcomings 542 00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:40,800 Speaker 2: of our criminal justice system. We hear this phrase fake news, 543 00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:45,959 Speaker 2: fake news. It's all fake news carelessly tossed around to 544 00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:49,200 Speaker 2: the point where people are actually beginning to believe that 545 00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:52,640 Speaker 2: they should be dismissive of anything written by a journalists. 546 00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:56,560 Speaker 2: This is so dangerous for reasons that I think are 547 00:32:56,600 --> 00:33:01,120 Speaker 2: obvious to listeners of this show. Dissult on our media 548 00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:06,280 Speaker 2: makes support incredible news organizations more important than Ever, as 549 00:33:06,320 --> 00:33:10,080 Speaker 2: it is often under the microscope of their thorough investigative 550 00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:15,640 Speaker 2: reporting that we uncover and then prevent the junk science 551 00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:25,760 Speaker 2: behind wrongful convictions. Next week, we'll explore the junk science 552 00:33:25,800 --> 00:33:30,480 Speaker 2: of eyewitness identification with the renowned psychologist and memory expert 553 00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:35,680 Speaker 2: Elizabeth Loftis. Wrongful Conviction Junk Science is a production of 554 00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:39,600 Speaker 2: Lava for Good Podcasts and association with Signal Company Number One. 555 00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:43,080 Speaker 2: Thanks to our executive producer Jason Flahm and the team 556 00:33:43,120 --> 00:33:47,080 Speaker 2: at Signal Company Number One executive producer Kevin Wartis and 557 00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:51,560 Speaker 2: senior producers Karen Kornhaber and Brit Spangler. Our music was 558 00:33:51,600 --> 00:33:55,120 Speaker 2: composed by Jay Ralph. You can follow me on Instagram 559 00:33:55,160 --> 00:33:59,520 Speaker 2: at dubin Josh, follow the Wrongful Conviction podcast on Facebook 560 00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:03,280 Speaker 2: and on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction, and on Twitter at 561 00:34:03,320 --> 00:34:04,120 Speaker 2: wrong Conviction