1 00:00:01,800 --> 00:00:04,440 Speaker 1: Rip current is the production of iHeart podcasts. 2 00:00:04,640 --> 00:00:07,960 Speaker 2: The views and opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those 3 00:00:08,039 --> 00:00:08,840 Speaker 2: of the host. 4 00:00:08,640 --> 00:00:10,120 Speaker 1: Producers or parent company. 5 00:00:10,560 --> 00:00:11,840 Speaker 3: Listener discretion is. 6 00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:22,960 Speaker 4: It vis. 7 00:00:19,600 --> 00:00:25,919 Speaker 5: Nineteen seventy five. Context of tape recording is the interview 8 00:00:27,200 --> 00:00:31,640 Speaker 5: prior to forty two forty four findings of the defendant 9 00:00:32,280 --> 00:00:38,800 Speaker 5: Lynette from in the case of the United States versus 10 00:00:38,920 --> 00:00:47,240 Speaker 5: Lynette from criminal number S seven five four five one. 11 00:00:47,560 --> 00:00:53,320 Speaker 5: Place of interview the Sacramento County Jail. Persons present during 12 00:00:53,440 --> 00:01:01,600 Speaker 5: interview Doctor Richmond, the defendant Lynette From Assistant Federal Defender 13 00:01:02,200 --> 00:01:08,440 Speaker 5: Robert Holly, Federal Defenders Investigator David Kraft. All parties are 14 00:01:08,440 --> 00:01:12,800 Speaker 5: now present. The time is three p forty one pm. 15 00:01:13,120 --> 00:01:16,280 Speaker 6: Competency right now to understand what's going on and to 16 00:01:16,280 --> 00:01:19,000 Speaker 6: be able to work with counsel. And so, if it's 17 00:01:19,000 --> 00:01:21,440 Speaker 6: all right with you, I like to receive the session examination. 18 00:01:21,520 --> 00:01:24,200 Speaker 6: I'll be giving a report to the judge and a 19 00:01:24,480 --> 00:01:27,000 Speaker 6: report to mister Walker of the Public Defender's Office, and 20 00:01:27,120 --> 00:01:30,520 Speaker 6: a copy to you. The crew order specifies it. Each 21 00:01:30,520 --> 00:01:33,039 Speaker 6: of you gets a copedy. So if it's okay, well 22 00:01:33,200 --> 00:01:34,600 Speaker 6: get started, go ahead. 23 00:01:35,319 --> 00:01:36,200 Speaker 3: Do you buy Lynette? 24 00:01:37,080 --> 00:01:37,319 Speaker 7: Yes? 25 00:01:37,600 --> 00:01:40,400 Speaker 3: Okay, what's your date of birth? 26 00:01:40,480 --> 00:01:47,200 Speaker 7: Lynette on twenty second, forty eight, what's your means? 27 00:01:47,440 --> 00:01:49,720 Speaker 8: Right now? 28 00:01:52,120 --> 00:01:53,040 Speaker 3: Who do you charge with? 29 00:01:53,160 --> 00:01:59,000 Speaker 8: Lynett attend to the assassination with the president of the Lasts. 30 00:02:01,000 --> 00:02:04,760 Speaker 9: In nineteen seventy five. Lynette from was widely known for 31 00:02:04,840 --> 00:02:08,800 Speaker 9: being a prominent member of Charles Manson's cult or quote 32 00:02:08,840 --> 00:02:13,800 Speaker 9: unquote family. Lynette, who was known by her Manson nickname Squeaky, 33 00:02:14,360 --> 00:02:17,519 Speaker 9: hadn't actually been present at either the murders at Sharon 34 00:02:17,560 --> 00:02:21,240 Speaker 9: Tate's home or at the LaBianca house, but she had 35 00:02:21,360 --> 00:02:25,600 Speaker 9: very openly supported Manson during his murder trial. That meant 36 00:02:25,639 --> 00:02:28,840 Speaker 9: that the public linked her to the homicidal rampage of 37 00:02:28,880 --> 00:02:33,760 Speaker 9: August nineteen sixty nine. The murders actually started on July 38 00:02:33,880 --> 00:02:37,640 Speaker 9: twenty seventh that year with the stabbing murder of Gary Hinman. 39 00:02:38,360 --> 00:02:41,200 Speaker 9: Manson believed Hinman owed him money over a drug deal 40 00:02:41,240 --> 00:02:44,840 Speaker 9: gone wrong, so he had one of his followers, Bobby Bosley, 41 00:02:45,120 --> 00:02:49,320 Speaker 9: kill Hinman. Bossolet wrote political piggies on the wall in 42 00:02:49,400 --> 00:02:53,520 Speaker 9: Hindman's blood. He also drew a pop print. The idea 43 00:02:53,639 --> 00:02:56,640 Speaker 9: was to put suspicion on the Black Panthers, but it 44 00:02:56,680 --> 00:03:02,040 Speaker 9: didn't work. Twelve days later, on August eighth, newspapers reported 45 00:03:02,040 --> 00:03:05,520 Speaker 9: that Bosolet had been arrested for Hinman's murder. A cop 46 00:03:05,600 --> 00:03:08,360 Speaker 9: found him sleeping in Hindman's station wagon, which had been 47 00:03:08,400 --> 00:03:12,239 Speaker 9: reported stolen. In the rear of the vehicle, the cops 48 00:03:12,280 --> 00:03:17,480 Speaker 9: found a bloodstained knife. The night that Bossolet's arrests was reported, 49 00:03:17,960 --> 00:03:21,519 Speaker 9: members of the Manson family brutally murdered the pregnant actress 50 00:03:21,560 --> 00:03:25,120 Speaker 9: Sharon Tate and four others at a house on Los Angeles' 51 00:03:25,160 --> 00:03:27,320 Speaker 9: Clo Drive, in. 52 00:03:27,240 --> 00:03:30,200 Speaker 10: A scene described by one investigator as reminiscent of a 53 00:03:30,200 --> 00:03:34,240 Speaker 10: weird religious rite. Five persons, including actress Sharon Tate, were 54 00:03:34,320 --> 00:03:36,600 Speaker 10: found dead at the home of miss Tate and her husband, 55 00:03:36,760 --> 00:03:38,400 Speaker 10: screen director Roman Polanski. 56 00:03:39,600 --> 00:03:43,360 Speaker 9: The following night, they killed a businessman named Leno LaBianca 57 00:03:43,720 --> 00:03:48,360 Speaker 9: and his wife Rosemary in their home. History is written 58 00:03:48,400 --> 00:03:51,520 Speaker 9: by the victors, and in nineteen seventy five, the victor 59 00:03:51,600 --> 00:03:56,480 Speaker 9: was Los Angeles District Attorney Vincent Bugliosi. In the trial 60 00:03:56,760 --> 00:04:00,760 Speaker 9: and in his mega best selling book Helter Skelter, Bugliosi 61 00:04:00,840 --> 00:04:03,960 Speaker 9: laid out his theory of the crime, Manson told his 62 00:04:04,080 --> 00:04:06,920 Speaker 9: followers that our race war was imminent, and that the 63 00:04:06,960 --> 00:04:10,000 Speaker 9: Beatles song Helter Skelter was about this war. 64 00:04:10,760 --> 00:04:12,960 Speaker 11: Manson told his followers that this would be a blood 65 00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:16,000 Speaker 11: bath in the streets of every American city. Manson foresaw 66 00:04:16,080 --> 00:04:19,360 Speaker 11: that the black man would win this war, but later 67 00:04:19,440 --> 00:04:21,640 Speaker 11: on he said, the black man, because of an experience, 68 00:04:21,680 --> 00:04:24,679 Speaker 11: would simply not be able to handle the reins of power. 69 00:04:24,760 --> 00:04:27,359 Speaker 11: So you'd have to look around at those white people 70 00:04:27,360 --> 00:04:30,280 Speaker 11: who had survived, who had escaped from Helter Skelter. In 71 00:04:30,320 --> 00:04:32,839 Speaker 11: other words, turn all the reigns of power to Charles 72 00:04:32,880 --> 00:04:33,840 Speaker 11: Manson and his family. 73 00:04:35,400 --> 00:04:38,839 Speaker 9: These were all things that Manson had in fact talked about, 74 00:04:39,240 --> 00:04:42,720 Speaker 9: and Bugliosi tied them to the murders, making Manton both 75 00:04:42,760 --> 00:04:46,000 Speaker 9: the architect of the crimes and also providing a motive 76 00:04:46,080 --> 00:04:50,120 Speaker 9: for what seemed to be absolutely senseless acts. But were 77 00:04:50,120 --> 00:04:53,400 Speaker 9: they the reason behind the Tate LaBianca murderers or the 78 00:04:53,440 --> 00:04:57,520 Speaker 9: main reason Manton was not at the scene of any 79 00:04:57,560 --> 00:05:01,080 Speaker 9: of the murders. This thinking goes, so Bugliosi had to 80 00:05:01,120 --> 00:05:04,360 Speaker 9: find a way to make him culpable. The Helter Skelter 81 00:05:04,520 --> 00:05:08,800 Speaker 9: theory did that, but the truth might be simpler. The 82 00:05:08,839 --> 00:05:12,280 Speaker 9: Tate and LaBianca murders were committed while Bobby Bousolet was 83 00:05:12,320 --> 00:05:15,279 Speaker 9: in custody. Were they an attempt to take the heat 84 00:05:15,320 --> 00:05:19,520 Speaker 9: off Bosolet to reinforce the clues left by Bassolet at 85 00:05:19,520 --> 00:05:21,760 Speaker 9: Gary Hinman's house that this was the work of the 86 00:05:21,760 --> 00:05:25,600 Speaker 9: Black Panthers. Author Jarret Kobek. 87 00:05:26,200 --> 00:05:29,640 Speaker 4: What seems to be the hardening consensus about the real 88 00:05:29,720 --> 00:05:34,360 Speaker 4: motivation of the subsequent murders was this idea of doing 89 00:05:34,560 --> 00:05:39,159 Speaker 4: copycat murders that then would make it seem like black 90 00:05:39,279 --> 00:05:41,919 Speaker 4: radicals had done Bousolet's murder. 91 00:05:42,920 --> 00:05:45,919 Speaker 9: But that's not what people were thinking in nineteen seventy five, 92 00:05:46,680 --> 00:05:49,560 Speaker 9: and maybe the specifics of why these killings were committed 93 00:05:49,680 --> 00:05:53,599 Speaker 9: don't matter much. After Manson and the others were arrested, 94 00:05:54,040 --> 00:05:57,800 Speaker 9: many of his followers slipped away. They hadn't signed up 95 00:05:57,920 --> 00:06:03,960 Speaker 9: for Murdernet, though remained loyal despite the death toll. That's 96 00:06:04,000 --> 00:06:09,400 Speaker 9: what people knew about her in nineteen seventy five. In retrospect, 97 00:06:09,760 --> 00:06:13,200 Speaker 9: the Tate Loabianca murders became one of the symbols of 98 00:06:13,240 --> 00:06:17,120 Speaker 9: the mythic end of the sixties, but the cultural, political, 99 00:06:17,200 --> 00:06:20,280 Speaker 9: and social movements of the nineteen sixties did not end 100 00:06:20,320 --> 00:06:24,560 Speaker 9: in nineteen sixty nine. As we saw last episode, they 101 00:06:24,600 --> 00:06:29,720 Speaker 9: continued well into the seventies. In fact, two assassination attempts 102 00:06:29,720 --> 00:06:34,000 Speaker 9: by radicalized women in September nineteen seventy five might be 103 00:06:34,040 --> 00:06:40,720 Speaker 9: a more apt symbolic end. Two failed attempts on Gerald Ford, 104 00:06:41,240 --> 00:06:45,280 Speaker 9: a man so representative of the Middle American establishment that 105 00:06:45,360 --> 00:06:48,600 Speaker 9: he was chosen to unite and lead the wounded country 106 00:06:48,680 --> 00:06:53,159 Speaker 9: in the wake of Watergate. I'm Toby Ball. 107 00:06:53,279 --> 00:06:56,960 Speaker 12: And I'm Mary Catherine Garrison, and this is rip current. 108 00:07:02,040 --> 00:07:03,080 Speaker 13: It just escalated. 109 00:07:03,080 --> 00:07:04,359 Speaker 8: It was in and it was crazy. 110 00:07:04,640 --> 00:07:07,120 Speaker 13: And then he heard about the Bottomless Pit, and so 111 00:07:07,160 --> 00:07:09,960 Speaker 13: we're looking through the bottomless pit because he thinks this 112 00:07:10,440 --> 00:07:13,040 Speaker 13: war's gonna happen if we need a place the high. 113 00:07:14,320 --> 00:07:22,360 Speaker 12: Episode two. Don't want out and You're Free. The Tate 114 00:07:22,440 --> 00:07:26,240 Speaker 12: LaBianca murders will always define the Manson family, and rightfully so. 115 00:07:27,080 --> 00:07:29,960 Speaker 12: But for Lynette, from those events brought an end to 116 00:07:30,040 --> 00:07:33,280 Speaker 12: a period in which she'd experience a radical alternative to 117 00:07:33,320 --> 00:07:37,720 Speaker 12: her troubled but traditional upbringing. She koremed from classic Middle 118 00:07:37,720 --> 00:07:41,440 Speaker 12: America to a tiny traveling commune led by an ex 119 00:07:41,560 --> 00:07:45,240 Speaker 12: conguru who came to define the furthest extreme of all 120 00:07:45,240 --> 00:07:47,800 Speaker 12: that Middle America felt was wrong with the radical young. 121 00:07:49,200 --> 00:07:52,360 Speaker 12: The meeting that changed the trajectory of Lynette's life occurred, 122 00:07:52,440 --> 00:07:55,360 Speaker 12: in her telling, on a night in nineteen sixty seven, 123 00:07:55,440 --> 00:07:59,200 Speaker 12: beneath a gazebo on Venice Beach, California. She was, in 124 00:07:59,280 --> 00:08:03,160 Speaker 12: her words, alone and at a standstill. She just dropped 125 00:08:03,200 --> 00:08:06,000 Speaker 12: out of college, was alienated from her father, and her 126 00:08:06,000 --> 00:08:10,800 Speaker 12: future seemed uncertain. Seemingly out of nowhere, Charles Manson appeared. 127 00:08:12,160 --> 00:08:14,800 Speaker 12: Over the course of several years, Lynette wrote a memoir 128 00:08:14,880 --> 00:08:17,200 Speaker 12: of her time with Manson from nineteen sixty seven to 129 00:08:17,320 --> 00:08:22,480 Speaker 12: nineteen sixty nine, titled Reflection spelled with an X. In 130 00:08:22,520 --> 00:08:25,400 Speaker 12: the book, she presents a utopian view of Manson and 131 00:08:25,400 --> 00:08:30,120 Speaker 12: his followers. She is a very unreliable narrator. Still when 132 00:08:30,120 --> 00:08:32,960 Speaker 12: it comes to understanding her actions in nineteen seventy five, 133 00:08:33,440 --> 00:08:36,679 Speaker 12: her perceptions of the experience are probably more important than 134 00:08:36,720 --> 00:08:40,360 Speaker 12: what actually happened during her time with Manson. About that 135 00:08:40,440 --> 00:08:45,200 Speaker 12: meeting at the gazebo, she writes names Charlie, he said, 136 00:08:45,360 --> 00:08:48,640 Speaker 12: looking directly in my eyes. In San Francisco, they called 137 00:08:48,720 --> 00:08:52,960 Speaker 12: me the gardener. He appeared both big and small. I 138 00:08:53,040 --> 00:08:57,720 Speaker 12: was enchanted yet flustered and mentally hiding. And then he 139 00:08:57,800 --> 00:09:00,400 Speaker 12: wasn't there at all until I sought him back in 140 00:09:00,480 --> 00:09:03,880 Speaker 12: earnest and he was seated on the wall. I gathered 141 00:09:03,880 --> 00:09:08,080 Speaker 12: the pieces of my mind. Manson seemed to know that 142 00:09:08,120 --> 00:09:09,760 Speaker 12: her father had kicked her out of the house, and 143 00:09:09,840 --> 00:09:13,080 Speaker 12: Lynette responded by telling him about her life that she 144 00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:17,080 Speaker 12: wanted something different. He told her the way out of 145 00:09:17,080 --> 00:09:21,040 Speaker 12: that room is not through the door. She was confused, 146 00:09:21,120 --> 00:09:25,040 Speaker 12: and when he explained further, Lynette noticed his West Virginia twang. 147 00:09:26,640 --> 00:09:30,800 Speaker 12: Don't want out and you're free. The want ties you up, 148 00:09:31,480 --> 00:09:36,320 Speaker 12: be where you are. You've got to start someplace. This 149 00:09:36,440 --> 00:09:38,920 Speaker 12: advice reminded her of a poem that she'd written during 150 00:09:38,920 --> 00:09:42,240 Speaker 12: a period of deep depression. She'd been staring at her 151 00:09:42,280 --> 00:09:45,400 Speaker 12: red and gray checked pajamas and imagined herself trapped on 152 00:09:45,480 --> 00:09:51,360 Speaker 12: a gray square again from her memoir, around and around 153 00:09:51,400 --> 00:09:54,840 Speaker 12: its edges. I'd paced like a caged animal, collapsing in 154 00:09:54,880 --> 00:09:58,720 Speaker 12: one corner to gnaw the bare bones of despair. But 155 00:09:58,760 --> 00:10:02,719 Speaker 12: when I'd looked up within this fantasy, my square had 156 00:10:02,760 --> 00:10:07,960 Speaker 12: become a diamond. Changing my perspective had changed my world. 157 00:10:10,760 --> 00:10:12,839 Speaker 12: Manson told her that he had just spent seven and 158 00:10:12,840 --> 00:10:15,559 Speaker 12: a half years in prison, and that he had experienced 159 00:10:15,640 --> 00:10:19,560 Speaker 12: hurt and anger until he found peace with himself. He 160 00:10:19,640 --> 00:10:23,400 Speaker 12: was now traveling to see his mother. Lynette could come 161 00:10:23,440 --> 00:10:28,200 Speaker 12: if she wanted. This is from the psychiatric interview conducted 162 00:10:28,240 --> 00:10:31,040 Speaker 12: with Lynette to determine her competency to defend herself in 163 00:10:31,080 --> 00:10:34,280 Speaker 12: the trial for her failed attempt on Ford. Here she 164 00:10:34,320 --> 00:10:36,560 Speaker 12: talks about her relationship with her parents as she was 165 00:10:36,559 --> 00:10:37,120 Speaker 12: growing up. 166 00:10:38,760 --> 00:10:41,840 Speaker 3: And if you were growing up, how would you generally 167 00:10:42,080 --> 00:10:50,080 Speaker 3: categorize your relationship with them? Smooth? Locky times. Oh, let's 168 00:10:50,080 --> 00:10:53,760 Speaker 3: say up until your teen years. In your preteen years, 169 00:10:55,800 --> 00:10:59,160 Speaker 3: we had a good relationship with both mommy and dad. 170 00:11:01,200 --> 00:11:05,240 Speaker 3: Were you closer to one late the other? No. 171 00:11:07,720 --> 00:11:10,400 Speaker 12: The mixture of the unusual and the conventional that was 172 00:11:10,440 --> 00:11:12,880 Speaker 12: a theme of Lynette's upbringing can be seen in her 173 00:11:12,920 --> 00:11:18,200 Speaker 12: participation in a dance troupe called the Westchester Lariats. Lynette wrote, 174 00:11:18,760 --> 00:11:20,640 Speaker 12: I was ten when I took the first of four 175 00:11:20,720 --> 00:11:23,199 Speaker 12: cross country tours with a troop and a chartered bus 176 00:11:23,240 --> 00:11:26,600 Speaker 12: and without my parents. Nearly every night in a different city, 177 00:11:26,880 --> 00:11:29,080 Speaker 12: we performed a two hour song and dance show in 178 00:11:29,160 --> 00:11:34,920 Speaker 12: theaters and auditoriums, military bases, and outdoor arenas. Her mother 179 00:11:34,920 --> 00:11:37,920 Speaker 12: accompanied her on the first tour after that, though, starting 180 00:11:37,920 --> 00:11:41,520 Speaker 12: when Lynette was eleven, her parents stayed behind. But while 181 00:11:41,559 --> 00:11:44,800 Speaker 12: this seems unusual, the content of the tour was actually 182 00:11:44,880 --> 00:11:45,840 Speaker 12: extremely square. 183 00:11:46,080 --> 00:11:48,880 Speaker 8: This evening, we bring you a musical Tiller to Spring. 184 00:11:49,360 --> 00:11:52,400 Speaker 12: Led by a professor from the University of Southern California, 185 00:11:52,559 --> 00:11:58,360 Speaker 12: the group performed all kinds of dances, square dancing, polka, rumba, samba, Viennese, waltz, 186 00:11:58,679 --> 00:12:00,880 Speaker 12: can can, Charleston, and so on, with. 187 00:12:01,040 --> 00:12:05,080 Speaker 14: Songs like Spring Is Here, April Love, and Springtime in 188 00:12:05,120 --> 00:12:05,720 Speaker 14: the Rockies. 189 00:12:06,720 --> 00:12:09,559 Speaker 12: The Lariats even appeared on The Lawrence Welk Show, which 190 00:12:09,679 --> 00:12:11,040 Speaker 12: is about as square as it gets. 191 00:12:11,440 --> 00:12:17,319 Speaker 14: Now here's your host, Lawrence, Well war'd your girls. 192 00:12:17,520 --> 00:12:21,199 Speaker 12: Here's Lynette again talking about her parents during her psychological interview. 193 00:12:22,440 --> 00:12:30,360 Speaker 3: Could you just very briefly characteria his business, warm, cold, friendly, distant, wild, quiet, passy. 194 00:12:30,679 --> 00:12:32,560 Speaker 3: You know how about Dad? 195 00:12:33,880 --> 00:12:35,400 Speaker 8: I would describe them those passes. 196 00:12:36,600 --> 00:12:41,280 Speaker 3: Mom and Dad both relatively quiet people. 197 00:12:41,640 --> 00:12:44,280 Speaker 8: That's right, Well, they're very afraid. 198 00:12:46,800 --> 00:12:48,439 Speaker 3: Do you know what he was afraid of? 199 00:12:50,320 --> 00:12:55,000 Speaker 8: People have difference to it. Some some people were afraid 200 00:12:55,000 --> 00:12:58,760 Speaker 8: of water. Some people were afraid of other people. They're 201 00:12:58,760 --> 00:13:02,960 Speaker 8: afraid their own image, getting in class the sun. He 202 00:13:03,040 --> 00:13:05,040 Speaker 8: had various fears on. 203 00:13:06,600 --> 00:13:08,040 Speaker 3: Good. 204 00:13:09,400 --> 00:13:13,200 Speaker 12: Lynette's characterization of her father as harboring various fears probably 205 00:13:13,240 --> 00:13:16,640 Speaker 12: stems from the complete dissolution of their relationship in her teens. 206 00:13:17,360 --> 00:13:20,000 Speaker 12: Typical for the times, he was a dominant member of 207 00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:24,160 Speaker 12: the family, his feelings and decisions determined the family's actions. 208 00:13:25,040 --> 00:13:27,720 Speaker 12: Lynette traced the origin of their estrangement to her decision 209 00:13:27,760 --> 00:13:29,920 Speaker 12: at age thirteen to go to the beach with an 210 00:13:29,920 --> 00:13:34,000 Speaker 12: older cousin instead of her family. Apparently, this offended her 211 00:13:34,040 --> 00:13:36,920 Speaker 12: father's notion of Lynette's obligations to the family, and his 212 00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:42,080 Speaker 12: reaction was harsh. In reflection, she writes, from that day 213 00:13:42,600 --> 00:13:45,240 Speaker 12: he forbade my presence in any room of the house 214 00:13:45,280 --> 00:13:48,640 Speaker 12: he occupied, and instructed my mother to refuse me an 215 00:13:48,679 --> 00:13:52,000 Speaker 12: allowance or travel money. He permitted her to set a 216 00:13:52,000 --> 00:13:55,040 Speaker 12: plate for me in the kitchen, but thenceforth ignored any 217 00:13:55,040 --> 00:14:00,480 Speaker 12: other arrangements, effectively blocking me out of his life. Reads 218 00:14:00,520 --> 00:14:03,439 Speaker 12: as a wild overreaction to what seemed like a relatively 219 00:14:03,520 --> 00:14:06,840 Speaker 12: minor transgression, and it must have been traumatic for Lynette, 220 00:14:06,880 --> 00:14:10,360 Speaker 12: who was in her teens, her grades fell, she dropped 221 00:14:10,360 --> 00:14:13,720 Speaker 12: out of the Lariettes and began to drink. But despite 222 00:14:13,760 --> 00:14:16,720 Speaker 12: their failed relationship, Lynette is clear that her father stopped 223 00:14:16,720 --> 00:14:18,280 Speaker 12: short of any kind of violence. 224 00:14:19,440 --> 00:14:22,600 Speaker 15: I never said that she was physically abused by her father. 225 00:14:23,080 --> 00:14:25,680 Speaker 15: I laid out the possibility that could have happened. I mean, 226 00:14:25,680 --> 00:14:29,520 Speaker 15: I said people thought that, but she was very insistent 227 00:14:29,560 --> 00:14:33,120 Speaker 15: that that never happened. There was no physical abuse. There 228 00:14:33,160 --> 00:14:37,880 Speaker 15: was emotional abuse, but nothing physical, she said. I'm Jess 229 00:14:37,880 --> 00:14:40,480 Speaker 15: Braven and I wrote a book called Squeaky, The Life 230 00:14:40,520 --> 00:14:43,600 Speaker 15: and Times of Lynette Alice Frommy or from as it's 231 00:14:43,600 --> 00:14:44,720 Speaker 15: more commonly pronounced. 232 00:14:46,080 --> 00:14:49,080 Speaker 12: Even with the rocky home life, Lynette managed to make 233 00:14:49,120 --> 00:14:50,960 Speaker 12: a positive impression in her high school. 234 00:14:51,800 --> 00:14:55,320 Speaker 15: She was considered very talented in high school. She certainly 235 00:14:55,360 --> 00:14:57,760 Speaker 15: was not isolated. She had many connections. She was in 236 00:14:57,800 --> 00:15:00,520 Speaker 15: a play with Phil Hartman, who went on to be 237 00:15:00,600 --> 00:15:03,120 Speaker 15: on Saturday Night Live. They were friends. He gave me 238 00:15:03,160 --> 00:15:05,280 Speaker 15: an interview about her and had very fond memories of 239 00:15:05,320 --> 00:15:09,080 Speaker 15: her being very talented and funny. Her English teachers and 240 00:15:09,160 --> 00:15:12,880 Speaker 15: everyone they imagined really great things for her. 241 00:15:13,640 --> 00:15:15,400 Speaker 3: When you were in high school, what kind of grades 242 00:15:15,440 --> 00:15:16,080 Speaker 3: did you get. 243 00:15:18,720 --> 00:15:22,600 Speaker 8: During the former parer. Heart schooling years did great. The 244 00:15:22,680 --> 00:15:24,640 Speaker 8: latter part of high school I became dis interesting. 245 00:15:25,520 --> 00:15:29,160 Speaker 3: Didn't you have any particular run ins with teacher's principles? 246 00:15:29,760 --> 00:15:29,800 Speaker 10: No? 247 00:15:32,360 --> 00:15:33,960 Speaker 3: How did you get along with the other kids? 248 00:15:34,280 --> 00:15:36,200 Speaker 8: Fine? 249 00:15:37,400 --> 00:15:40,600 Speaker 12: In nineteen sixty six, the from family moved from Redondo 250 00:15:40,680 --> 00:15:44,760 Speaker 12: Beach Inland to Torrance, California. Lynette had been living at 251 00:15:44,760 --> 00:15:47,760 Speaker 12: different people's houses, escaping from the damage relationship with her 252 00:15:47,800 --> 00:15:51,400 Speaker 12: father and the dysfunction in her home and Torrance, though 253 00:15:51,480 --> 00:15:54,160 Speaker 12: she returned to live with her family before finally leaving 254 00:15:54,200 --> 00:15:57,720 Speaker 12: for good. She took classes at Alchemino College, but was 255 00:15:57,760 --> 00:16:02,120 Speaker 12: disappointed in the experience. From her psychiatric interview. 256 00:16:03,280 --> 00:16:07,200 Speaker 8: I was also just outside the schools. I wasn't roning 257 00:16:07,200 --> 00:16:10,200 Speaker 8: into the person has to be wilpen to learn. 258 00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:13,680 Speaker 3: Ye that it was a time for you to do that. 259 00:16:16,160 --> 00:16:20,840 Speaker 3: The paper or newsweek or somebody haven't. I don't remember 260 00:16:20,840 --> 00:16:24,840 Speaker 3: where it was. You've been written about in many different publications. 261 00:16:24,880 --> 00:16:27,200 Speaker 6: They said something about your having a handsome kind of 262 00:16:27,240 --> 00:16:30,320 Speaker 6: a major clash when you were sixteen or something and 263 00:16:30,400 --> 00:16:31,440 Speaker 6: getting fooded. 264 00:16:31,080 --> 00:16:31,680 Speaker 5: Out of the hole. 265 00:16:32,520 --> 00:16:33,800 Speaker 8: I know they like them times like that. 266 00:16:34,120 --> 00:16:36,640 Speaker 3: Yeah, what did happen? What were the circumstances of your 267 00:16:36,720 --> 00:16:37,240 Speaker 3: leaving home. 268 00:16:37,320 --> 00:16:38,000 Speaker 8: How adore you? 269 00:16:38,080 --> 00:16:42,400 Speaker 6: And when I left, I was at Okay and you 270 00:16:42,480 --> 00:16:45,240 Speaker 6: were leaving because somebody said get out, we don't want 271 00:16:45,320 --> 00:16:46,520 Speaker 6: you around, or something like that. 272 00:16:47,200 --> 00:16:52,320 Speaker 14: Oh, my father and I had a discussion and we 273 00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:53,040 Speaker 14: didn't agree. 274 00:16:53,280 --> 00:16:57,520 Speaker 8: It was about something, probably very minor. I don't even 275 00:16:57,520 --> 00:16:58,440 Speaker 8: remember the super. 276 00:17:00,160 --> 00:17:02,920 Speaker 12: In Reflections, Lynette says that she and her father clash 277 00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:06,800 Speaker 12: over something minor, in her words, a word or definition. Then, 278 00:17:06,880 --> 00:17:11,320 Speaker 12: she writes, suddenly enraged, he pointed to the door and yelled, 279 00:17:11,400 --> 00:17:13,800 Speaker 12: you get out of this house and never come back. 280 00:17:14,560 --> 00:17:17,560 Speaker 12: I cried, stuffing a big purse full of books and 281 00:17:17,640 --> 00:17:21,399 Speaker 12: makeup and miscellaneous junk. I called my college boyfriend to 282 00:17:21,400 --> 00:17:22,960 Speaker 12: pick me up, but he said he was too drunk 283 00:17:22,960 --> 00:17:26,679 Speaker 12: to drive and suggested I hitchhike. She walked to the 284 00:17:26,720 --> 00:17:29,679 Speaker 12: nearest freeway on ramp and thumb a ride on the 285 00:17:29,720 --> 00:17:44,840 Speaker 12: other end of that ride. Charles Manson After the break, like. 286 00:17:45,359 --> 00:17:49,280 Speaker 14: Most young people during the late sixties, we did a 287 00:17:49,280 --> 00:17:50,600 Speaker 14: lot of traveling around. 288 00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:53,320 Speaker 8: We did a lot of meeting people. We will not 289 00:17:53,480 --> 00:18:02,760 Speaker 8: she evenistic or solely autumn to be out only for pleasure. 290 00:18:04,480 --> 00:18:08,960 Speaker 16: We were concerned about what was going on what people 291 00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:09,520 Speaker 16: were thinking. 292 00:18:10,440 --> 00:18:12,760 Speaker 8: I don't know how people were being treated. 293 00:18:15,680 --> 00:18:19,080 Speaker 12: After meeting Charles Manson at gazebo in Venice Beach, Lynette 294 00:18:19,160 --> 00:18:21,239 Speaker 12: joined him in a small group of followers as they 295 00:18:21,320 --> 00:18:24,960 Speaker 12: drove around California and the Southwest. These were the early 296 00:18:25,080 --> 00:18:28,000 Speaker 12: days of the family, before they settled at two ranches 297 00:18:28,040 --> 00:18:32,600 Speaker 12: near Los Angeles, and before Manson's philosophy grew stranger and stranger. 298 00:18:33,720 --> 00:18:38,280 Speaker 14: And we found dozens of young people out in the streets. 299 00:18:40,280 --> 00:18:43,399 Speaker 14: Some of them were taking care of themselves blind, others 300 00:18:43,440 --> 00:18:48,320 Speaker 14: of them were being abused by Henny. Number of people 301 00:18:48,320 --> 00:18:50,959 Speaker 14: being found out that they could just swoop into San 302 00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:58,880 Speaker 14: Francisco and picked people up. And it was my feeling, too. 303 00:19:00,720 --> 00:19:02,280 Speaker 8: Off of these people are place to stay. 304 00:19:04,560 --> 00:19:07,800 Speaker 12: Manson proved to be very adept at recruiting followers among 305 00:19:07,840 --> 00:19:08,560 Speaker 12: this population. 306 00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:13,760 Speaker 7: At its very basic level, it was a form of trafficking. 307 00:19:13,680 --> 00:19:16,360 Speaker 13: And I didn't realize it then, of course, but I'm 308 00:19:16,400 --> 00:19:20,080 Speaker 13: sure he saw me that I was a valuable commodity. 309 00:19:21,280 --> 00:19:26,280 Speaker 7: I'm Deborah Herman, author and indie publisher, and I was 310 00:19:26,359 --> 00:19:32,080 Speaker 7: fortunate enough to collaborate with Diane Lake, formerly known as Snake, 311 00:19:32,800 --> 00:19:36,280 Speaker 7: who was the youngest member of the Manson family cult. 312 00:19:37,080 --> 00:19:43,000 Speaker 13: I'm Diane Lake, former member of the family, and I'm 313 00:19:43,040 --> 00:19:45,000 Speaker 13: now going to be seventy. 314 00:19:44,920 --> 00:19:49,920 Speaker 7: Which I can't believe. When we first connected with one 315 00:19:49,920 --> 00:19:53,720 Speaker 7: another to do this book, Diane had kept her secret 316 00:19:54,119 --> 00:19:58,439 Speaker 7: for how many years forty seven? Pretty much nobody, her 317 00:19:58,520 --> 00:20:02,280 Speaker 7: children didn't even know. Manson did things so much on 318 00:20:02,440 --> 00:20:06,600 Speaker 7: instinct of how to survive, based on a lifetime of 319 00:20:06,600 --> 00:20:08,159 Speaker 7: being in penalage. 320 00:20:08,160 --> 00:20:10,119 Speaker 13: Today and this was a whole new I mean, he 321 00:20:10,240 --> 00:20:14,159 Speaker 13: came out of jail. He'd had lessons on how to 322 00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:16,720 Speaker 13: be a pimp, a successful pimp, because he'd been out 323 00:20:16,760 --> 00:20:20,520 Speaker 13: before and tried it and failed. He'd gotten more lessons. 324 00:20:20,720 --> 00:20:23,959 Speaker 13: But he came out in the middle of the lommer 325 00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:27,080 Speaker 13: e the summer of love, you know, where it's like 326 00:20:27,480 --> 00:20:31,439 Speaker 13: free love and free secks and free drives. Yeah, you know, 327 00:20:31,600 --> 00:20:33,600 Speaker 13: I'm sure that he was just like. 328 00:20:33,960 --> 00:20:39,200 Speaker 12: Wow, think about this. Manson started his second prison stent 329 00:20:39,280 --> 00:20:42,919 Speaker 12: in nineteen sixty Dwight D. Eisenhower was still president, the 330 00:20:42,960 --> 00:20:45,880 Speaker 12: civil rights movement had not yet begun. In earnest there 331 00:20:45,960 --> 00:20:50,320 Speaker 12: was only Middle America. He was released in May of 332 00:20:50,440 --> 00:20:54,440 Speaker 12: nineteen sixty seven, straight into the strangeness of the psychedelic sixties. 333 00:20:54,960 --> 00:20:58,240 Speaker 12: The number one song was the Beatles Penny Lane. Timothy 334 00:20:58,280 --> 00:21:00,840 Speaker 12: Leary had just participated in a public debate with a 335 00:21:00,840 --> 00:21:05,040 Speaker 12: professor from MIT about the use of LSD. Manson traveled 336 00:21:05,119 --> 00:21:07,600 Speaker 12: up to San Francisco at the peak of hate Ashbury. 337 00:21:08,280 --> 00:21:10,879 Speaker 12: The radical Young hadn't existed when he'd entered prison in 338 00:21:10,960 --> 00:21:14,800 Speaker 12: nineteen sixty. Now he was in their midst. It might 339 00:21:14,800 --> 00:21:16,200 Speaker 12: as well have been a different planet. 340 00:21:17,480 --> 00:21:20,880 Speaker 17: Imagine the hate Ashbury District as a lion peering through 341 00:21:20,920 --> 00:21:24,280 Speaker 17: a tambourine with intense, dark golden eyes. 342 00:21:24,800 --> 00:21:27,920 Speaker 12: This is from a KPIX television documentary on the Hate 343 00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:30,920 Speaker 12: which aired on January first, nineteen sixty seven. 344 00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:35,240 Speaker 17: With a cross hanging down from the tambourine and mushrooms 345 00:21:35,359 --> 00:21:39,400 Speaker 17: and roses growing below it, and the lion peering through 346 00:21:39,440 --> 00:21:44,480 Speaker 17: the tambourine with intense dark golden eyes. And think of 347 00:21:44,520 --> 00:21:51,000 Speaker 17: it as being an image disappearing, peering, coming back, retracting itself, 348 00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:56,640 Speaker 17: manifesting itself, being beautiful, and it is all perfect. This 349 00:21:56,680 --> 00:22:00,960 Speaker 17: is really it, and it is all perfect. This is 350 00:22:01,080 --> 00:22:03,639 Speaker 17: really it, and it. 351 00:22:03,760 --> 00:22:04,680 Speaker 7: Is all perfect. 352 00:22:04,880 --> 00:22:07,920 Speaker 12: Manson was known as the Gardener in San Francisco because 353 00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:09,920 Speaker 12: the skills that he had used as a pimp proved 354 00:22:09,960 --> 00:22:13,520 Speaker 12: effective with the vulnerable population of young people, mostly women 355 00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:16,359 Speaker 12: in the hate, who he could bring under his influence. 356 00:22:16,840 --> 00:22:19,240 Speaker 12: He considered this tending to the Flower children. 357 00:22:20,160 --> 00:22:23,480 Speaker 14: Young people would come to our house and say can 358 00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:24,200 Speaker 14: I stay here? 359 00:22:24,920 --> 00:22:29,000 Speaker 8: And would say you could stay here, but you know, 360 00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:31,360 Speaker 8: you're going to have to be quiet. 361 00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:34,600 Speaker 16: You're going to have to respect the place and you 362 00:22:35,040 --> 00:22:37,959 Speaker 16: and if you just want attention from your parents, and 363 00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:40,679 Speaker 16: if you're going to take drugs and you can't be 364 00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:42,399 Speaker 16: here as we don't do that. 365 00:22:44,040 --> 00:22:46,800 Speaker 12: This is clearly Lynette twisting the truth to the court 366 00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:50,359 Speaker 12: appointed psychiatrist, trying to make herself look as law abiding 367 00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:54,720 Speaker 12: as possible. The Manson family definitely took drugs. Manson used 368 00:22:54,840 --> 00:22:59,480 Speaker 12: LSD in particular to control his followers. In nineteen sixty eight, 369 00:22:59,480 --> 00:23:02,080 Speaker 12: the Manson family more or less settled in the undeveloped 370 00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:03,560 Speaker 12: areas outside Los Angeles. 371 00:23:04,760 --> 00:23:08,920 Speaker 13: We came back, lived different places in Tipanga Canyon. Then 372 00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:11,719 Speaker 13: we found the Spawn Ranch and it was like an 373 00:23:11,800 --> 00:23:15,560 Speaker 13: old movie set up in the hills of Los Angeles 374 00:23:15,840 --> 00:23:19,960 Speaker 13: in the San Fernando Valley. George was the blind owner 375 00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:24,439 Speaker 13: and he loved the place. But George didn't really know 376 00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:28,760 Speaker 13: everything that was going on, and Squeaky was in charge 377 00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:32,600 Speaker 13: of kind of taking care of George and making him happy. 378 00:23:34,320 --> 00:23:37,399 Speaker 12: George Spawn, the owner of Spawn Ranch, gave Lynette the 379 00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:40,840 Speaker 12: nickname Squeaky because of the pitch of her voice. As 380 00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:43,639 Speaker 12: Diane said, Lynette had the job of keeping Spawn content. 381 00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:49,000 Speaker 12: This reportedly included keeping him sexually satisfied. This utilitarian relationship 382 00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:51,280 Speaker 12: with a much older man would be echoed years later 383 00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:59,360 Speaker 12: in Sacramento. In her psychiatric interview and in reflections, Lynette 384 00:23:59,359 --> 00:24:02,480 Speaker 12: made her best case for the Manson family lifestyle. And 385 00:24:02,520 --> 00:24:04,520 Speaker 12: there must have been attractions in order for people to 386 00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:06,480 Speaker 12: join and then stay. 387 00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:10,640 Speaker 13: Yes, bad things happened there, but I don't The overriding 388 00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:13,600 Speaker 13: thing was the beauty of the whole area. 389 00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:17,040 Speaker 12: The arrangement in a general sense was not unusual for 390 00:24:17,119 --> 00:24:17,480 Speaker 12: the time. 391 00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:23,200 Speaker 7: That's funny, how. 392 00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:26,400 Speaker 13: She where did you come back? 393 00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:26,640 Speaker 5: Then? 394 00:24:27,359 --> 00:24:31,800 Speaker 13: There were lots of communes, there were lots of guru varieties, 395 00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:34,760 Speaker 13: you know, and he kind of pawned himself off as 396 00:24:34,840 --> 00:24:40,320 Speaker 13: this wise philosopher, you know, through his music, rather than 397 00:24:40,840 --> 00:24:41,560 Speaker 13: your city. 398 00:24:45,119 --> 00:24:49,000 Speaker 12: Here's Lynette again from her psychiatric interview. Remember that she 399 00:24:49,119 --> 00:24:51,560 Speaker 12: is trying to put herself in the best possible light. 400 00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:53,359 Speaker 12: She may not be completely candid. 401 00:24:53,440 --> 00:25:00,200 Speaker 3: Here we've got a branch, kind of a foster home lovel. 402 00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:02,359 Speaker 8: Well. 403 00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:09,320 Speaker 14: We weren't telling these people anything, these young people, we 404 00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:12,280 Speaker 14: just offered them our land. 405 00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:15,320 Speaker 8: I believe it's healthy for anyone to live in the words. 406 00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:17,160 Speaker 7: I don't. 407 00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:20,480 Speaker 8: I wouldn't send a kid to the to the streets. 408 00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:26,160 Speaker 8: So we had this land available and let them live 409 00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:26,479 Speaker 8: on it. 410 00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:33,760 Speaker 14: We did not have sex orgies and drug orgies, or 411 00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:40,000 Speaker 14: cult meetings, or hanging Christ in effigy or contending Charlie 412 00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:42,160 Speaker 14: was Christ, or anything of that nature. 413 00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:45,840 Speaker 8: This all comes out of Papa's imagination. We were actually 414 00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:46,399 Speaker 8: very healthy. 415 00:25:46,760 --> 00:25:52,840 Speaker 14: We found out that by giving to each other and 416 00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:58,200 Speaker 14: supporting each other and building each other up, and realizing 417 00:25:58,480 --> 00:26:00,480 Speaker 14: that there is a joy in giving, there was a 418 00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:04,080 Speaker 14: purpose in being able to serve each other, we found 419 00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:06,040 Speaker 14: great satisfaction. 420 00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:14,359 Speaker 7: They were this group of hippies, and they loved each other, 421 00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:20,240 Speaker 7: and they were living from They were manifesting everything they needed. 422 00:26:20,359 --> 00:26:23,680 Speaker 7: They would go dumpster diving for food or people would 423 00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:27,040 Speaker 7: give them things. And Charlie was always saying that he 424 00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:30,920 Speaker 7: was what did he call it? He was postulating for things. 425 00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:38,199 Speaker 7: And then somehow they would happen until my horse is 426 00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:39,760 Speaker 7: down down. 427 00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:45,280 Speaker 12: But beneath the idyllic surface there were darker currents now. 428 00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:47,679 Speaker 7: Of course, he may have been scheming, and he may 429 00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:51,320 Speaker 7: have been bargaining, or people need to remember he had 430 00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:54,440 Speaker 7: learned to be a pimp, so he may have actually 431 00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:57,000 Speaker 7: been trading some of the women for some of the 432 00:26:57,040 --> 00:26:58,560 Speaker 7: things that they all needed. 433 00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:02,639 Speaker 12: This is soft peddling, a practice that has been documented 434 00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:04,720 Speaker 12: where at least some of the girls were expected to 435 00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:07,640 Speaker 12: have sex with visitors to the ranch whom Manson wanted 436 00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:11,399 Speaker 12: to curry favor with. Venereal disease was reportedly rampant on 437 00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:11,879 Speaker 12: the ranch. 438 00:27:13,160 --> 00:27:16,639 Speaker 7: You know, you've got several sides to what was happening, 439 00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:20,480 Speaker 7: but the side he was presenting to the women was 440 00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:25,720 Speaker 7: one of a guru and a musician and their lover. 441 00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:30,080 Speaker 13: And he just had this uncanny ability to read people 442 00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:33,399 Speaker 13: and then use it, you know, for. 443 00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:37,840 Speaker 8: His survival or his forward movement. 444 00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:42,879 Speaker 12: Manson, like so many male gurus, structured the group around 445 00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:45,160 Speaker 12: his sexual relations with his female followers. 446 00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:49,280 Speaker 13: We were like sisters, like you know, the sister wives, 447 00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:52,600 Speaker 13: because we were all having sex with him and sometimes 448 00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:55,840 Speaker 13: with each other with him. It was like a family. 449 00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:58,720 Speaker 13: I mean, you've got to feed twenty people every night. 450 00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:03,320 Speaker 13: We did the cook the cleaning, learned Charlie songs and 451 00:28:03,359 --> 00:28:06,560 Speaker 13: sang them. We played music, and we smoked marijuana, and 452 00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:09,840 Speaker 13: we got high on LSD, you know, probably once a week. 453 00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:15,680 Speaker 13: It's not like anybody really had a job. So we 454 00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:19,120 Speaker 13: had to learn how to take care of ourselves, finding 455 00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:23,880 Speaker 13: housing that was free and panhandled for money. I mean 456 00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:28,440 Speaker 13: that it was basically survival. So however you could eke 457 00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:32,680 Speaker 13: out an existence. That's what we did. And then we 458 00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:35,120 Speaker 13: you know, we moved to the spawn ranch, found that 459 00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:38,440 Speaker 13: and ended up moving to the back house. 460 00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:43,000 Speaker 12: The change in a single year from Lynette's conventional life 461 00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:45,920 Speaker 12: to this new existence at the impoverished margins of society 462 00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:48,640 Speaker 12: must have been disorienting, but she embraced it. 463 00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:53,880 Speaker 13: So those girls they continued, I think to be part 464 00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:57,240 Speaker 13: of the inner circle, especially Lynette. I always felt like 465 00:28:57,360 --> 00:28:59,640 Speaker 13: Lynette was kind of his right hand woman. 466 00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:04,320 Speaker 12: Lynette's education was especially helpful to Manson. 467 00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:08,640 Speaker 13: She was smart, and then I don't think he read well. 468 00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:12,480 Speaker 13: I think he might have even been on the spectrum 469 00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:18,480 Speaker 13: of autism because he had incredible auditory recall, but he 470 00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:21,240 Speaker 13: could not and he hadn't really been to school. He'd 471 00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:24,600 Speaker 13: always been you know, the bad boy at school and 472 00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:28,720 Speaker 13: reform school in prison, and so Lynette did all any 473 00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:33,040 Speaker 13: reading to him. I think that he and Lynette were 474 00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:36,800 Speaker 13: closer than any of the girls, and she was. 475 00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:38,960 Speaker 7: Also very, very dedicated to him. 476 00:29:40,280 --> 00:29:43,720 Speaker 12: And as often happens, the relative isolation and lack of 477 00:29:43,720 --> 00:29:47,320 Speaker 12: restraints led Manson to increasingly unhinged theories. 478 00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:52,560 Speaker 13: But he got kind of frenzied. And I remember one 479 00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:56,040 Speaker 13: time at the ranch on the saloon, he'd gotten all 480 00:29:56,080 --> 00:30:01,480 Speaker 13: these like forest service maps and he taped them all together, 481 00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:05,080 Speaker 13: and he was looking for a pathway to the desert 482 00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:07,720 Speaker 13: because we had got introduced to Barker Ranch through one 483 00:30:07,760 --> 00:30:09,440 Speaker 13: of the girls that joined the family. 484 00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:13,880 Speaker 12: The Manson family lived at two ranches, starting in nineteen 485 00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:17,400 Speaker 12: sixty eight and continuing after the nineteen sixty nine murders 486 00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:20,440 Speaker 12: into the early seventies. In addition to Spawn Ranch and 487 00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:23,440 Speaker 12: Laurel Canyon, they also lived at the far more remote 488 00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:25,080 Speaker 12: Barker Ranch in Death Valley. 489 00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:29,680 Speaker 13: He was looking for a path from there up to 490 00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:32,600 Speaker 13: Barker Ranch, or you know that part of the Death 491 00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:38,080 Speaker 13: Valley on these you know, topographical forestry maps, and he 492 00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:41,880 Speaker 13: just there was this frenzy to get money and supplies gas. 493 00:30:42,280 --> 00:30:46,880 Speaker 13: He talked about digging a huge trench and then hijacking 494 00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:50,280 Speaker 13: a gas tanker and burying it so that we would 495 00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:53,400 Speaker 13: have like, you know, lots of gas. 496 00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:55,800 Speaker 7: Yeah, so that he could be independent. 497 00:30:56,120 --> 00:30:57,760 Speaker 13: But it just it just escalated. 498 00:30:57,800 --> 00:30:59,120 Speaker 8: It was in and it was crazy. 499 00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:01,800 Speaker 13: And then he heard about the bottomless pit, and so 500 00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:04,720 Speaker 13: we're looking for the bottomless pit because he thinks this 501 00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:07,120 Speaker 13: war is going to happen and we need a place 502 00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:10,960 Speaker 13: to hide, and you know that the winner's not going 503 00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:11,920 Speaker 13: to be able to rule. 504 00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:16,040 Speaker 12: The entrance to this bottomless pit was supposed to be 505 00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:20,280 Speaker 12: somewhere in the desert. In his book Helter Skelter, Vincent 506 00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:22,960 Speaker 12: Bugliosi quotes Manson as saying about this pit. 507 00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:26,800 Speaker 2: Every tuned in tribe of people that's ever lived has 508 00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:30,600 Speaker 2: escaped the destruction of their race by going underground, literally, 509 00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:33,360 Speaker 2: And they're all living in a golden city where there's 510 00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:35,840 Speaker 2: a river that runs through it of milk and honey, 511 00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:38,280 Speaker 2: and a tree that bears twelve kinds of fruit. 512 00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:42,080 Speaker 12: You get the picture. All of this that Diane just 513 00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:44,960 Speaker 12: talked about. The money, the gas, the trench, the pit 514 00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:48,960 Speaker 12: were connected to Manson's theory about the helter Skelter race war. 515 00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:52,400 Speaker 12: He believed that the war would be won by blacks, 516 00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:54,960 Speaker 12: but that they would for some reason look to Manson 517 00:31:55,080 --> 00:31:55,720 Speaker 12: to lead them. 518 00:31:57,120 --> 00:32:00,240 Speaker 13: And so then they're going to come and ask the family, 519 00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:03,600 Speaker 13: you know, to I guess, repopulate the world and rule. 520 00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:07,560 Speaker 13: It just made it makes me crazy to even say it, 521 00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:12,120 Speaker 13: but that's what I heard from him. 522 00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:16,280 Speaker 12: And then there were the strange and unnerving, creepy Crawley missions. 523 00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:20,400 Speaker 13: I never was asked to do that, but it was like, 524 00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:22,320 Speaker 13: you know, they'd dressed in black, and they'd go and 525 00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:25,120 Speaker 13: sneak into people's houses and move the furniture and eat 526 00:32:25,160 --> 00:32:28,200 Speaker 13: some food. And as far as I know, they weren't 527 00:32:28,240 --> 00:32:30,920 Speaker 13: stealing anything. But I don't know. 528 00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:35,960 Speaker 12: In retrospect, this may have been conditioning Manson getting his 529 00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:39,560 Speaker 12: followers used to committing weird and transgressive acts at his whim, 530 00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:41,800 Speaker 12: a prelude to the murders that would follow. 531 00:32:43,080 --> 00:32:46,280 Speaker 13: He'd always been talking about the Black White race war, 532 00:32:46,400 --> 00:32:50,800 Speaker 13: kind of like you know, apocalyptic moment in time that 533 00:32:50,840 --> 00:32:54,240 Speaker 13: he'd been hearing about in the jail, and then when 534 00:32:54,280 --> 00:32:57,520 Speaker 13: the Beatles White Album came out, that's when it got 535 00:32:57,880 --> 00:33:01,920 Speaker 13: coined as Helter Skelter, he really thought the Beatles were 536 00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:05,560 Speaker 13: sending him a message about Helter Skelter. 537 00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:12,560 Speaker 9: Helter Skelter is a Beatles song written by Paul McCartney. 538 00:33:13,280 --> 00:33:17,600 Speaker 9: Mostly nonsense lyrics, rockets, instrumentation and screamed vocals. 539 00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:22,880 Speaker 3: All is coming down in the past, but don't want 540 00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:23,680 Speaker 3: to break you. 541 00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:28,320 Speaker 9: The phrase helter skelter means chaos, but also a tall 542 00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:31,240 Speaker 9: spiral slide found at English fairgrounds. 543 00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:34,320 Speaker 11: Tell Me, tell Me, tell me the answers it maybe 544 00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:36,040 Speaker 11: be in love, but you make no dances. 545 00:33:36,560 --> 00:33:38,480 Speaker 3: You goward Aileen to kill with. 546 00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:41,320 Speaker 7: Skills. 547 00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:48,920 Speaker 9: District Attorney Vincent Bugliosi's theory of the murders wasn't constructed 548 00:33:48,960 --> 00:33:53,120 Speaker 9: of whole cloth. Charlie preached that the song Helter Skelter 549 00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:56,880 Speaker 9: was a coded message about his race war prophecy. The 550 00:33:56,960 --> 00:33:59,600 Speaker 9: violence of the music pointed to something as well. To 551 00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:04,000 Speaker 9: people looking for signs the Bliss of nineteen sixty seven 552 00:34:04,040 --> 00:34:07,240 Speaker 9: and Penny Lane had been supplanted by the Disorder of 553 00:34:07,320 --> 00:34:12,920 Speaker 9: nineteen sixty eight. Helter Skelter his followers felt that Charlie 554 00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:16,600 Speaker 9: believed it, and maybe he did. The song has become 555 00:34:16,640 --> 00:34:20,799 Speaker 9: associated with Manson largely because of Bugliosi's book of the 556 00:34:20,840 --> 00:34:27,680 Speaker 9: same name in the subsequent movie. In October, two months 557 00:34:27,719 --> 00:34:32,800 Speaker 9: after the Tate LaBianca murders, the arrests came. First. Charlie 558 00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:35,600 Speaker 9: was picked up for leading an auto theft ring. He 559 00:34:35,719 --> 00:34:38,680 Speaker 9: was found hiding in a cabinet beneath the bathroom sink. 560 00:34:39,520 --> 00:34:42,839 Speaker 9: He was kept incarcerated on the new murder charges and 561 00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:47,160 Speaker 9: was never again outside the penal system. His absence left 562 00:34:47,160 --> 00:34:52,719 Speaker 9: a void in the Manson family. Author Jess Braven, you. 563 00:34:52,680 --> 00:34:55,200 Speaker 15: Know, the Manson family didn't have bylaws. You know, it 564 00:34:55,320 --> 00:35:00,000 Speaker 15: was not a formally organized institution. And when Manson, who 565 00:35:00,200 --> 00:35:04,160 Speaker 15: was complete paramount, absolute leader of the group, was removed 566 00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:09,560 Speaker 15: by being arrested, there was no succession plan. Lynette essentially 567 00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:12,600 Speaker 15: emerged as the you know, recognized leader of the group 568 00:35:12,680 --> 00:35:15,440 Speaker 15: for a few reasons, that Charlie trusted her, that she 569 00:35:15,600 --> 00:35:18,640 Speaker 15: was known as someone who kept things running during what 570 00:35:18,719 --> 00:35:22,080 Speaker 15: would pass for more normal times for that commune, and 571 00:35:22,120 --> 00:35:26,440 Speaker 15: then that the news media recognized her or put her 572 00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:30,319 Speaker 15: on TV or put her in the newspapers because she 573 00:35:30,600 --> 00:35:33,440 Speaker 15: was fairly facile at dealing with the press. 574 00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:41,520 Speaker 9: Here, for instance, is Lynette being interviewed by NBC news. 575 00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:44,200 Speaker 8: Good person, a very good person. 576 00:35:46,680 --> 00:35:47,759 Speaker 11: Was he out there all the time? 577 00:35:48,520 --> 00:35:51,440 Speaker 7: I don't even know you know who took. 578 00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:53,680 Speaker 12: Off over now that beer? 579 00:35:57,440 --> 00:35:59,000 Speaker 10: Was anybody stealing anything out there? 580 00:36:00,760 --> 00:36:03,960 Speaker 14: Let's see everyone in a ball and a daughter? Do 581 00:36:04,040 --> 00:36:07,480 Speaker 14: you know all we want to do is do. 582 00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:14,600 Speaker 9: And again? Talking with kse cr Sacramento's NBC station, what about. 583 00:36:14,360 --> 00:36:15,759 Speaker 7: People running around naked out there? 584 00:36:16,680 --> 00:36:19,040 Speaker 14: Well, I took up my clothes whenever I gas Champ. 585 00:36:19,239 --> 00:36:19,920 Speaker 10: It was hot. 586 00:36:21,040 --> 00:36:23,840 Speaker 9: But with Manson's arrest and the exodus of many of 587 00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:27,200 Speaker 9: his followers, things changed for those who. 588 00:36:27,080 --> 00:36:31,239 Speaker 15: Remained without Manson there, You know what is it? It 589 00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:35,240 Speaker 15: becomes a sort of cult surrounding the idea of Manson 590 00:36:35,719 --> 00:36:37,400 Speaker 15: more than Manson himself. 591 00:36:37,960 --> 00:36:40,640 Speaker 9: And Lynette was the most prominent of those that remained. 592 00:36:41,440 --> 00:36:44,000 Speaker 9: This new reality would lead her to a new phase 593 00:36:44,040 --> 00:36:47,360 Speaker 9: of her life, one marked by her continued devotion to 594 00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:52,120 Speaker 9: Manson and by violence. Next time on Rip. 595 00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:59,759 Speaker 1: Current Rip Current was created and written by Toby Ball 596 00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:03,759 Speaker 1: and developed with Alexander Williams. Hosted by Toby Ball with 597 00:37:03,880 --> 00:37:08,200 Speaker 1: Mary Catherine Garrison. Original music by Jeff Sannoff. Show art 598 00:37:08,239 --> 00:37:12,160 Speaker 1: by Jeff Niyaz Goda and Charles Rudder. Producers Jesse funk 599 00:37:12,280 --> 00:37:17,480 Speaker 1: Rema O'Kelly and Noms Griffin Supervising producer Trevii Young, Executive 600 00:37:17,520 --> 00:37:22,080 Speaker 1: producers Alexander Williams and Matt Frederick. Recorded at In Your 601 00:37:22,080 --> 00:37:27,640 Speaker 1: Ear Studios, Richmond, Virginia, engineered by Paul Bruski and Spotland 602 00:37:27,680 --> 00:37:32,640 Speaker 1: Productions Nashville, Tennessee, engineered by Ben Holland. Here episodes of 603 00:37:32,680 --> 00:37:36,520 Speaker 1: Rip Current early completely add free and receive exclusive bonus 604 00:37:36,520 --> 00:37:40,400 Speaker 1: content by subscribing to iHeart True Crime Plus only on 605 00:37:40,440 --> 00:37:45,560 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 606 00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:49,280 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows, 607 00:37:49,719 --> 00:37:57,480 Speaker 1: and visit our website, ripcurrentpod dot com. 608 00:37:57,560 --> 00:38:01,600 Speaker 17: And it is a perfect. This is really it and 609 00:38:01,640 --> 00:38:06,480 Speaker 17: it is all perfect. This is really it and it 610 00:38:06,560 --> 00:38:11,120 Speaker 17: is all perfect. This is really it and it is 611 00:38:11,160 --> 00:38:17,440 Speaker 17: all perfect. This is really it and it is all perfect. 612 00:38:18,160 --> 00:38:24,319 Speaker 17: This is really it and it is all perfect. This 613 00:38:24,640 --> 00:38:32,279 Speaker 17: is really it and it is all perfect. This is 614 00:38:32,440 --> 00:38:39,120 Speaker 17: really it and it is all perfect. This is really it.