1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:27,600 Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to 2 00:00:27,640 --> 00:00:31,160 Speaker 1: the show Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so much 3 00:00:31,240 --> 00:00:36,479 Speaker 1: for tuning in. We are so over the moon to 4 00:00:36,560 --> 00:00:40,600 Speaker 1: be joined again with our super producer mister Max Williams. 5 00:00:44,600 --> 00:00:47,720 Speaker 1: He's a wild wolves of love. Yeah, you got three, 6 00:00:48,120 --> 00:00:52,080 Speaker 1: You got three handsome lone wolves. Here teaming up for 7 00:00:52,240 --> 00:00:55,520 Speaker 1: part two of How Dogs Went Domestic. They call me 8 00:00:56,040 --> 00:00:58,840 Speaker 1: Ben Bollen in this part of the world, and you, sir, 9 00:00:59,320 --> 00:01:02,440 Speaker 1: often go by the sober Kate Noel Brown. 10 00:01:02,720 --> 00:01:07,520 Speaker 2: 'tis true and I want saw Max Williams drinking a 11 00:01:07,640 --> 00:01:10,480 Speaker 2: Pina Colada Trader Vicks in His air was perfect. 12 00:01:11,600 --> 00:01:13,880 Speaker 1: He's got great hair, he really does. That's good. Had 13 00:01:14,000 --> 00:01:20,199 Speaker 1: hair on it, almost dog like. Oh, we're doing segues. 14 00:01:21,040 --> 00:01:27,080 Speaker 1: So in part one, we explored the ongoing mystery, the 15 00:01:27,120 --> 00:01:34,360 Speaker 1: ongoing scientific discourse about how a now extinct version of 16 00:01:34,560 --> 00:01:39,520 Speaker 1: gray wolves could end up becoming the Great Danes, the 17 00:01:39,640 --> 00:01:50,120 Speaker 1: Saint Bnad's, the stoutzersund yeah, the bloodhound, uh, the shizoos, 18 00:01:50,240 --> 00:01:53,559 Speaker 1: the Pomeranians and way to keep it clean with your pronunciation, 19 00:01:54,600 --> 00:01:58,360 Speaker 1: the Tibetan mastives. Uh. Well, I have a shazoo in 20 00:01:58,440 --> 00:02:02,200 Speaker 1: my family. Uh, and I just can't believe you. 21 00:02:02,520 --> 00:02:04,360 Speaker 2: The guy. I just can't believe you had squander an 22 00:02:04,360 --> 00:02:06,920 Speaker 2: opportunity to say, just to say the dirty way. 23 00:02:07,320 --> 00:02:09,840 Speaker 1: I have too much respect for him. The only thing 24 00:02:09,919 --> 00:02:13,720 Speaker 1: I don't like about that dog is that his name 25 00:02:13,840 --> 00:02:17,360 Speaker 1: is Leo, which is technically a terrible name for a dog. 26 00:02:17,800 --> 00:02:21,760 Speaker 2: My name is practically Leo in reverse. Yeah, think about it, 27 00:02:21,760 --> 00:02:25,000 Speaker 2: You're like a Leon. I'm a you know, it's funny. 28 00:02:25,000 --> 00:02:26,640 Speaker 2: I don't think we're gonna get into this too much today, 29 00:02:26,639 --> 00:02:31,200 Speaker 2: but it may well be fodder for a third episode 30 00:02:31,280 --> 00:02:35,320 Speaker 2: maybe down the line. But all of the crazy in 31 00:02:35,480 --> 00:02:38,480 Speaker 2: breeding that goes into dogs that yield some of these 32 00:02:38,480 --> 00:02:42,320 Speaker 2: creatures that you know, maybe shouldn't quite exist and that 33 00:02:42,480 --> 00:02:46,120 Speaker 2: have like some pretty significant challenges. Let's just say, like 34 00:02:46,160 --> 00:02:49,440 Speaker 2: the humble bulldog that really can't breathe super well. 35 00:02:49,960 --> 00:02:55,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, nor reproduce that well. This is an excellent setup, Noel. 36 00:02:55,600 --> 00:03:00,400 Speaker 1: Please tune into part one, where we explore, as three 37 00:03:00,600 --> 00:03:04,960 Speaker 1: huge fanboys, the story of wolves to Dogs. This is 38 00:03:05,000 --> 00:03:08,160 Speaker 1: part two. We teased it a little bit, but we're 39 00:03:08,200 --> 00:03:10,240 Speaker 1: not going to leave you hanging without a dope beat 40 00:03:10,280 --> 00:03:14,560 Speaker 1: to step two. It's time to talk about domestication. Step two, 41 00:03:15,240 --> 00:03:17,000 Speaker 1: Step two, step two, Okay, Part two. 42 00:03:17,400 --> 00:03:20,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, and many times in Part one have really thrown 43 00:03:20,919 --> 00:03:25,280 Speaker 2: my support behind this discussion of domestication. It is an 44 00:03:25,440 --> 00:03:27,800 Speaker 2: often misunderstood concept. 45 00:03:28,360 --> 00:03:31,120 Speaker 1: We sort of hinted at some of the early forms. 46 00:03:31,080 --> 00:03:34,840 Speaker 2: Of domestication that were a little more circumstantial. I believe 47 00:03:34,840 --> 00:03:38,920 Speaker 2: it was commensial domestication, which is basically just like circumstances 48 00:03:38,960 --> 00:03:41,760 Speaker 2: that yet yielded some changes, but not with the a 49 00:03:42,040 --> 00:03:45,680 Speaker 2: the abject intervention of humans quite yet, which is what 50 00:03:45,680 --> 00:03:46,360 Speaker 2: we're getting to now. 51 00:03:46,360 --> 00:03:49,040 Speaker 1: That's what I was just sort of throwing around, Yeah, 52 00:03:49,520 --> 00:03:56,360 Speaker 1: commensal domestication, meaning our earlier exploration, the idea of domestication 53 00:03:56,600 --> 00:04:00,440 Speaker 1: as a two way streak. Check out our earlier stuff 54 00:04:00,480 --> 00:04:04,400 Speaker 1: They don't want you to know episode regarding the idea 55 00:04:04,480 --> 00:04:08,640 Speaker 1: that plants may have domesticated humans. And as we'll see, 56 00:04:09,160 --> 00:04:13,880 Speaker 1: maybe the wolves turning into dogs had a little bit 57 00:04:13,920 --> 00:04:24,440 Speaker 1: of a pushback or touch on their human pals as well. 58 00:04:24,600 --> 00:04:28,480 Speaker 2: The Oxford English Dictionary what a tone defines domestication thusly 59 00:04:28,960 --> 00:04:32,040 Speaker 2: the process of taming an animal and keeping it as 60 00:04:32,080 --> 00:04:34,960 Speaker 2: a pet or on a farm. But as we indicated 61 00:04:35,520 --> 00:04:38,839 Speaker 2: more than once in Part one, That is an incredible 62 00:04:38,880 --> 00:04:41,640 Speaker 2: oversimplification of the concept because we even had a whole 63 00:04:41,640 --> 00:04:45,280 Speaker 2: section about like, what's the difference between taming and domesticating, 64 00:04:45,279 --> 00:04:48,080 Speaker 2: and they're not exactly the same. So I don't know, Oxford, 65 00:04:48,120 --> 00:04:50,479 Speaker 2: I think we might need a little bit more context here. 66 00:04:50,800 --> 00:04:55,120 Speaker 1: Yes, swing in a miss oed with all due respect, 67 00:04:56,000 --> 00:05:00,440 Speaker 1: swing and a miss whiffed on that one. Domestication is 68 00:05:00,480 --> 00:05:06,240 Speaker 1: not taming. Taming an animal refers to the process of 69 00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:11,680 Speaker 1: training a non human animal to be comfortable around humans, 70 00:05:11,920 --> 00:05:18,080 Speaker 1: to follow certain basic commands. This is often done with 71 00:05:18,400 --> 00:05:23,520 Speaker 1: wild animals to make them more manageable and less aggressive. 72 00:05:23,600 --> 00:05:26,480 Speaker 1: You can see so many videos of this on your 73 00:05:26,640 --> 00:05:31,360 Speaker 1: favorite social media platform of choice, your TikTok, your Instagram, 74 00:05:31,480 --> 00:05:37,120 Speaker 1: your YouTube. We've befriended a wild hip? How told this 75 00:05:37,400 --> 00:05:39,880 Speaker 1: hip how to leave amongst us? 76 00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:46,080 Speaker 2: We boas or in the Seminole two thousand's nature documentary 77 00:05:46,160 --> 00:05:49,880 Speaker 2: by our boy Werner Herzog grizzly Man, wherein that type 78 00:05:49,920 --> 00:05:53,320 Speaker 2: of thinking, spoiler alert ends up with the humans being 79 00:05:53,400 --> 00:05:59,640 Speaker 2: brutally devoured eaten by wild bears because they're not super. 80 00:05:59,480 --> 00:06:03,400 Speaker 1: Good candid for domestication, are they No, they're not old, 81 00:06:03,480 --> 00:06:08,520 Speaker 1: They're good candidates for taming, and we'll see the difference here. 82 00:06:08,560 --> 00:06:13,039 Speaker 1: Another good comparison would be the crows that I have 83 00:06:13,160 --> 00:06:17,960 Speaker 1: befriended in various parts of the world. Like, clearly those 84 00:06:17,960 --> 00:06:22,440 Speaker 1: guys are wild animals. They're savage af but they are 85 00:06:23,360 --> 00:06:27,880 Speaker 1: they They are intelligent, and they can work together with 86 00:06:28,080 --> 00:06:31,640 Speaker 1: humans on certain things, but they are by no means. 87 00:06:31,360 --> 00:06:34,520 Speaker 2: Domesticated, especially when you raise both arms up like the 88 00:06:34,640 --> 00:06:36,479 Speaker 2: night king and they just flock to you and do 89 00:06:36,560 --> 00:06:37,080 Speaker 2: your bidding. 90 00:06:37,520 --> 00:06:40,279 Speaker 1: Oh that's because I have eggs in my pockets. Oh yeah, 91 00:06:40,279 --> 00:06:43,520 Speaker 1: I was wondering what that sound was. So this idea 92 00:06:43,760 --> 00:06:48,440 Speaker 1: of taming an animals, it's not going to change the 93 00:06:48,560 --> 00:06:54,359 Speaker 1: animal's genetic makeup or its behavior. Instead, it occurs on 94 00:06:54,440 --> 00:06:58,680 Speaker 1: an individual level. Again as a two way street. You're 95 00:06:59,000 --> 00:07:03,800 Speaker 1: you're teaching me be one grizzly bear raised as a 96 00:07:03,880 --> 00:07:09,680 Speaker 1: cub to respond in a non threatened, non threatening way 97 00:07:09,800 --> 00:07:14,600 Speaker 1: to one human. But if that bear has a cub, 98 00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:17,720 Speaker 1: that cub is going to be Like my old college 99 00:07:17,800 --> 00:07:19,680 Speaker 1: roommate said savage. 100 00:07:19,240 --> 00:07:23,080 Speaker 2: Af absolutely, And like I said, with the Timothy Treadwell example, 101 00:07:23,120 --> 00:07:24,920 Speaker 2: that was the titular grizzly man. 102 00:07:25,200 --> 00:07:27,720 Speaker 1: You know, he had really good experiences kicking it with 103 00:07:27,760 --> 00:07:30,320 Speaker 1: grizzlies in the wild, and he felt that his behavior 104 00:07:30,360 --> 00:07:33,080 Speaker 1: and the way he was interacting with them was conducive 105 00:07:33,160 --> 00:07:36,200 Speaker 1: to good like symbiotic relationship with them until the moment 106 00:07:36,200 --> 00:07:38,520 Speaker 1: that it wasn't. He wasn't exactly training them. He was 107 00:07:38,560 --> 00:07:41,280 Speaker 1: just sort of like living amongst them, and it seemed 108 00:07:41,280 --> 00:07:43,520 Speaker 1: like it was going fine until the moment that for 109 00:07:43,560 --> 00:07:46,760 Speaker 1: whatever reason, that wild instinct kicked in and things went 110 00:07:47,800 --> 00:07:52,960 Speaker 1: very poorly for the grizzly man. But his acclimating himself 111 00:07:53,080 --> 00:07:57,600 Speaker 1: I could make himself expressactly. And this also we just 112 00:07:57,720 --> 00:08:01,160 Speaker 1: have to put the PSA in here, folks. A wild 113 00:08:01,360 --> 00:08:06,800 Speaker 1: animal being acclimated to human contact can be dangerous for 114 00:08:07,080 --> 00:08:09,880 Speaker 1: all life forms involved, one hundred percent. 115 00:08:10,040 --> 00:08:13,520 Speaker 2: And I mean, you know, let's maybe give slight benefit 116 00:08:13,600 --> 00:08:16,000 Speaker 2: of the doubt to Oxford the folks who find folks 117 00:08:16,040 --> 00:08:20,040 Speaker 2: over the Oxford English Dictionary taming on a long enough 118 00:08:20,240 --> 00:08:23,960 Speaker 2: timeline through multiple iterations and generations. 119 00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:27,440 Speaker 1: I guess is a better word is kind of domestication, 120 00:08:27,960 --> 00:08:29,880 Speaker 1: you know, can be right? 121 00:08:30,080 --> 00:08:32,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And I love we're going to get eventually 122 00:08:32,559 --> 00:08:36,720 Speaker 2: into some of the very important qualities that make an 123 00:08:36,800 --> 00:08:38,920 Speaker 2: animal domesticatable. 124 00:08:39,000 --> 00:08:41,040 Speaker 1: I'm not I can't wait to get to it. Heart. 125 00:08:41,120 --> 00:08:43,760 Speaker 1: That just really blew my mind. I'm super excited, all right. 126 00:08:43,880 --> 00:08:48,520 Speaker 1: So domesticating animals not taming them. Right, you can tame 127 00:08:48,600 --> 00:08:53,920 Speaker 1: a wolf, you cannot domesticate a wolf. When people attempted 128 00:08:54,240 --> 00:08:58,360 Speaker 1: to tame wolves or domesticate them over time, they ended 129 00:08:58,480 --> 00:09:04,280 Speaker 1: up with dogs. So it involves our earlier conversation about 130 00:09:04,400 --> 00:09:10,959 Speaker 1: artificial the natural selection selective breeding. Just like Gregor Mindel 131 00:09:11,080 --> 00:09:15,880 Speaker 1: figured out with those peapods over many generations, you can 132 00:09:17,640 --> 00:09:22,079 Speaker 1: you can kind of decision tree reproduction to have a 133 00:09:22,160 --> 00:09:27,160 Speaker 1: higher probability of exhibiting traits that you perceive as desirable, 134 00:09:27,520 --> 00:09:32,840 Speaker 1: which is why domesticating an animal will change its genetic makeup, 135 00:09:33,440 --> 00:09:39,080 Speaker 1: meaning it changes its physical and behavioral traits. Domesticated animals 136 00:09:39,160 --> 00:09:44,560 Speaker 1: are often dependent upon humans for their survival. They've adapted 137 00:09:44,920 --> 00:09:48,880 Speaker 1: to living in close proximity to humans the same way 138 00:09:49,040 --> 00:09:53,800 Speaker 1: that a hippopotamus has adapted to living around water. 139 00:09:54,400 --> 00:09:58,600 Speaker 2: Well, and while domesticated animals certainly there is a possibility 140 00:09:58,720 --> 00:10:00,800 Speaker 2: that they could do okay, if they were to be 141 00:10:00,880 --> 00:10:03,880 Speaker 2: let's say an indoor outdoor cat, right, it could go feral. 142 00:10:04,200 --> 00:10:07,800 Speaker 2: They could go feral, or they come back and everything's fine. 143 00:10:07,880 --> 00:10:09,679 Speaker 2: It just kind of depends on what happens out in 144 00:10:09,760 --> 00:10:10,520 Speaker 2: the wild. 145 00:10:10,360 --> 00:10:14,679 Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, And cats are a special case, perhaps an 146 00:10:14,800 --> 00:10:19,120 Speaker 1: episode for another day, because oh man, people loved cats. 147 00:10:19,240 --> 00:10:24,600 Speaker 1: People still love cats, even not counting toxoplasmosis. Gandhi, that's true. 148 00:10:24,880 --> 00:10:26,920 Speaker 2: You get what I'm saying, though, Ben, Like, is there 149 00:10:27,080 --> 00:10:32,040 Speaker 2: something that in like, let's say you adopted a cat 150 00:10:32,240 --> 00:10:34,679 Speaker 2: from being wild, like a cat that was like, you know, 151 00:10:35,080 --> 00:10:39,080 Speaker 2: born feral, and then you, I guess the term would 152 00:10:39,080 --> 00:10:41,520 Speaker 2: be trained that cat, and then it were to be 153 00:10:41,679 --> 00:10:44,800 Speaker 2: released out in the wild. Would it immediately go back 154 00:10:44,880 --> 00:10:48,680 Speaker 2: to its wild roots or would it retain the kind 155 00:10:48,679 --> 00:10:52,319 Speaker 2: of training or I guess sort of domestication light that 156 00:10:52,520 --> 00:10:53,880 Speaker 2: you imparted on it. 157 00:10:54,400 --> 00:10:59,840 Speaker 1: It's a fascinating question. One one good avenue for us 158 00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:02,960 Speaker 1: to explore that through would be the case of the pig. 159 00:11:04,040 --> 00:11:09,600 Speaker 1: A pig is domesticated at least twice throughout human history 160 00:11:09,679 --> 00:11:12,760 Speaker 1: and spread around the world. But we know well when 161 00:11:12,920 --> 00:11:16,360 Speaker 1: pigs are released into the wild or when they escape, 162 00:11:16,960 --> 00:11:22,280 Speaker 1: they can quickly return to their natural behavior. They'll grow hair, 163 00:11:22,600 --> 00:11:25,160 Speaker 1: they'll grow the tusk starts to resemble more of a 164 00:11:25,240 --> 00:11:30,120 Speaker 1: wild bore, just so, and reproduce with such The key 165 00:11:30,240 --> 00:11:36,000 Speaker 1: difference between taming and domesticating animals is, honestly the level 166 00:11:36,080 --> 00:11:41,840 Speaker 1: of human intervention. You can tame individual animals relatively quickly, 167 00:11:42,080 --> 00:11:45,199 Speaker 1: depending on the animal and depending on your own vibe 168 00:11:45,280 --> 00:11:49,640 Speaker 1: check role for initiative. But domestication is, to your point, 169 00:11:49,920 --> 00:11:56,840 Speaker 1: a long term process. It requires multiple generations, breeding, selection, 170 00:11:57,480 --> 00:11:58,760 Speaker 1: artificial kind of stuff. 171 00:11:58,880 --> 00:12:01,599 Speaker 2: Well, that's right, and chance and the cat scenario that 172 00:12:01,679 --> 00:12:05,719 Speaker 2: I was describing, whether the cat being astray isn't the 173 00:12:05,760 --> 00:12:07,240 Speaker 2: same as a cat being wild? 174 00:12:07,880 --> 00:12:11,720 Speaker 1: Right? No, there are Again, I feel like we should 175 00:12:11,800 --> 00:12:16,280 Speaker 1: make a different episode on the housecat. In general. 176 00:12:17,040 --> 00:12:18,880 Speaker 2: The house is sort of a special case, isn't it, 177 00:12:19,000 --> 00:12:20,560 Speaker 2: even even in terms of a lot of the stuff 178 00:12:20,559 --> 00:12:22,760 Speaker 2: we're talking about here, Yes, very much. 179 00:12:22,720 --> 00:12:26,520 Speaker 1: So, And maybe we think of it this way. Taming 180 00:12:26,920 --> 00:12:30,439 Speaker 1: is not to go back too far into my hip 181 00:12:30,480 --> 00:12:35,400 Speaker 1: hop roots, but taming is an each one, teach one situation. Right, 182 00:12:35,559 --> 00:12:39,600 Speaker 1: If you make friends with that grizzly bear, it might 183 00:12:39,720 --> 00:12:43,160 Speaker 1: not be friends with other humans just over the jump. 184 00:12:43,800 --> 00:12:47,920 Speaker 1: When it reproduces, the creatures it makes will be wild. 185 00:12:48,320 --> 00:12:52,880 Speaker 1: Domestication is a group effort, and it has serious genetic, 186 00:12:53,320 --> 00:12:59,720 Speaker 1: physiological and as we'll see today psychological changes to a species. 187 00:13:00,160 --> 00:13:02,080 Speaker 1: That's right. Let's see. 188 00:13:02,120 --> 00:13:05,599 Speaker 2: We've got a great line from archaeologist Angela Perry of 189 00:13:05,679 --> 00:13:08,760 Speaker 2: the University of Nevada in Las Vegas, who commented on 190 00:13:09,240 --> 00:13:14,600 Speaker 2: the improbability of hunter gatherers abducting and taming wolves, right, 191 00:13:14,880 --> 00:13:16,880 Speaker 2: which we had already said in the first episode was 192 00:13:17,480 --> 00:13:21,040 Speaker 2: kind of a debunked more or less debunked version of events. 193 00:13:21,080 --> 00:13:23,040 Speaker 2: Here this is what she had to say. I don't 194 00:13:23,120 --> 00:13:25,800 Speaker 2: know that many hunter gatherers would have had the time 195 00:13:26,080 --> 00:13:27,240 Speaker 2: or patience. 196 00:13:26,840 --> 00:13:28,640 Speaker 1: To deal with a wolf pup. We kind of talked 197 00:13:28,640 --> 00:13:30,800 Speaker 1: about that too in part one, and I don't know 198 00:13:31,000 --> 00:13:32,000 Speaker 1: why they would want to. 199 00:13:32,200 --> 00:13:35,040 Speaker 2: Sorry, we really did kind of lean pretty heavily into 200 00:13:35,120 --> 00:13:37,480 Speaker 2: that at that point in history. It would have been 201 00:13:37,679 --> 00:13:41,160 Speaker 2: massively inconvenient to do any of those things because it 202 00:13:41,200 --> 00:13:44,959 Speaker 2: would have required so much attention, so much again training, 203 00:13:45,240 --> 00:13:47,680 Speaker 2: and without the proper knowledge on how to go about 204 00:13:47,760 --> 00:13:50,839 Speaker 2: these things, you'd have basically like a little predator amongst you. 205 00:13:51,400 --> 00:13:56,280 Speaker 1: It would also be at that point extremely inconvenient to 206 00:13:56,640 --> 00:14:02,800 Speaker 1: stay alive as he without without having you know, man's 207 00:14:02,840 --> 00:14:06,840 Speaker 1: best friend. But thank you to any ancient communities who 208 00:14:06,880 --> 00:14:10,480 Speaker 1: are somehow alive and listening to podcasts. Thanks for giving 209 00:14:10,559 --> 00:14:17,800 Speaker 1: us dogs. Domestication gives superpowers in a kind of Faustian bargain. 210 00:14:18,160 --> 00:14:22,120 Speaker 1: We know that wolves and dogs again can indeed reproduce. 211 00:14:22,920 --> 00:14:25,760 Speaker 1: You know, this is where you get wolf dogskoi dogs, 212 00:14:25,880 --> 00:14:29,440 Speaker 1: things like that, coy dogs being coyote and dog wolf 213 00:14:29,480 --> 00:14:33,080 Speaker 1: dogs being wolves and dogs. But we also know that 214 00:14:33,320 --> 00:14:37,760 Speaker 1: a domestic dog from the day it is born shows 215 00:14:38,120 --> 00:14:42,840 Speaker 1: marked differences to every other single kind of canid out there. 216 00:14:43,360 --> 00:14:44,840 Speaker 2: Sure, and I'm sorry, I keep coming back to this 217 00:14:44,880 --> 00:14:47,080 Speaker 2: because i know it's different, but I'm getting what your 218 00:14:47,160 --> 00:14:49,800 Speaker 2: meaning when you're talking about the housecat. Even a quote 219 00:14:49,880 --> 00:14:55,600 Speaker 2: unquote domesticated housecat when exposed to like prey, well tear 220 00:14:55,680 --> 00:14:59,160 Speaker 2: that stuff up, you know, like an absolute apex predator, 221 00:14:59,480 --> 00:15:03,680 Speaker 2: whereas a you know, domesticated dog kind of just once is. 222 00:15:03,720 --> 00:15:08,120 Speaker 1: Kibbles, you know. Yeah, Well, I mean house cats have 223 00:15:08,200 --> 00:15:12,040 Speaker 1: it both ways, almost right, m Yeah, again, very different case. 224 00:15:12,200 --> 00:15:16,040 Speaker 1: They're they're kind of bracketed with an asterisk in the 225 00:15:16,160 --> 00:15:19,520 Speaker 1: story of domestication. If we're going to dogs, we're gonna 226 00:15:19,520 --> 00:15:24,520 Speaker 1: look at something like there's this excellent study cooperative communication 227 00:15:24,760 --> 00:15:28,760 Speaker 1: with humans evolved to emerge early in domestic dogs. Many 228 00:15:28,840 --> 00:15:32,080 Speaker 1: authors on this you should be able to find it online. 229 00:15:32,160 --> 00:15:37,240 Speaker 1: The lead author is Professor Hannah Solomon's and she shows 230 00:15:37,320 --> 00:15:42,440 Speaker 1: us that dogs genetically evolve to interact with humans at 231 00:15:42,480 --> 00:15:47,320 Speaker 1: a level most other non human animals will simply never reach. 232 00:15:48,440 --> 00:15:50,880 Speaker 1: Take a dog that's born, take a wolf that's born. 233 00:15:51,320 --> 00:15:55,320 Speaker 1: The dog puppy is going to naturally be more attracted 234 00:15:55,400 --> 00:15:55,920 Speaker 1: to humans. 235 00:15:56,440 --> 00:15:58,160 Speaker 2: And I do have to wonder if that is in 236 00:15:58,280 --> 00:16:01,600 Speaker 2: some part one of the those sort of I guess 237 00:16:02,040 --> 00:16:06,200 Speaker 2: perfect storms of evolution, where that original sort of genesis 238 00:16:06,400 --> 00:16:08,680 Speaker 2: breed of gray wolf that was just a little bit 239 00:16:08,760 --> 00:16:13,000 Speaker 2: more kind of predisposed to being chill with humans. If 240 00:16:13,080 --> 00:16:14,760 Speaker 2: that made such a if that made all the difference. 241 00:16:15,320 --> 00:16:20,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, Also, dogs are excellent at vibe checks. Dog puppies 242 00:16:20,800 --> 00:16:27,440 Speaker 1: will use gestures that humans can understand, verbal and nonverbal. 243 00:16:27,880 --> 00:16:32,840 Speaker 1: They'll make eye contact. They do something called extended gaze 244 00:16:33,320 --> 00:16:36,840 Speaker 1: way more often than wolf puppies, like, for instance, uh, 245 00:16:37,160 --> 00:16:41,440 Speaker 1: you know, the best way to end your life in 246 00:16:42,120 --> 00:16:45,680 Speaker 1: in an interaction with a gorilla is to make eye contact. 247 00:16:46,040 --> 00:16:48,880 Speaker 1: It is seen as a challenge. They will mop you 248 00:16:49,040 --> 00:16:51,840 Speaker 1: you can't do it. But but if you if you 249 00:16:51,920 --> 00:16:54,920 Speaker 1: make eye contact with a dog, then it sees your 250 00:16:55,080 --> 00:17:00,560 Speaker 1: soul everywhere, or put your finger out so boopit with 251 00:17:00,600 --> 00:17:01,040 Speaker 1: its nose. 252 00:17:01,600 --> 00:17:04,399 Speaker 2: But you know, all along in this conversation, from the 253 00:17:04,520 --> 00:17:07,400 Speaker 2: very start, we did talk about similarities in the way 254 00:17:07,520 --> 00:17:11,200 Speaker 2: that early humans and wolves hunted. So I do think 255 00:17:11,280 --> 00:17:13,400 Speaker 2: that there is sort of a chicken or egg question 256 00:17:13,560 --> 00:17:17,440 Speaker 2: here where were they domesticatable because they already kind of 257 00:17:17,520 --> 00:17:20,560 Speaker 2: shared some traits, you know, in the way they communicated 258 00:17:20,560 --> 00:17:23,200 Speaker 2: with one another and the way they executed their hunts. 259 00:17:23,880 --> 00:17:26,639 Speaker 2: Just some things that were sort of aligned already with 260 00:17:26,800 --> 00:17:28,760 Speaker 2: the two species humans and wolves. 261 00:17:29,240 --> 00:17:31,720 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, Like I was saying in part one, I 262 00:17:31,840 --> 00:17:36,960 Speaker 1: think the ven diagram is our key piece of the puzzle. 263 00:17:37,119 --> 00:17:40,560 Speaker 1: If we go to folks like Robert Quinlan, professor of 264 00:17:40,600 --> 00:17:45,479 Speaker 1: anthropology over at Washington State University, will see the argument 265 00:17:45,920 --> 00:17:53,639 Speaker 1: that this domestication process, this coevolution occurred because like the 266 00:17:53,760 --> 00:17:57,720 Speaker 1: rom Com example, wolves and humans already had so much 267 00:17:57,800 --> 00:18:03,480 Speaker 1: in common. They probably started domesticating each other accidentally in 268 00:18:03,720 --> 00:18:09,719 Speaker 1: fits and starts. Wolves were scavenging the remains of human kills, 269 00:18:10,240 --> 00:18:15,680 Speaker 1: and they probably kicked off the domestication process themselves. It 270 00:18:15,760 --> 00:18:20,919 Speaker 1: probably was not a case of a enterprising human killing 271 00:18:21,000 --> 00:18:25,680 Speaker 1: a wolf pack and saving the cubs. They would have 272 00:18:25,880 --> 00:18:31,399 Speaker 1: just eaten the cubs. I think it's tremendously presumptuous for 273 00:18:31,680 --> 00:18:36,040 Speaker 1: us to assume humans would have had the foresight to say, Hey, 274 00:18:36,600 --> 00:18:39,760 Speaker 1: let me take the child version of this thing that 275 00:18:39,920 --> 00:18:44,120 Speaker 1: almost killed me and fall asleep around it. Just roll 276 00:18:44,200 --> 00:18:49,800 Speaker 1: the dice, see what happens. The wolves probably were probably 277 00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:54,959 Speaker 1: the initiators one hundred percent. I just wanted to use 278 00:18:55,000 --> 00:18:57,320 Speaker 1: this as a quick opportunity. I think we've discussed this 279 00:18:57,480 --> 00:18:59,639 Speaker 1: on this podcast as well as on stuff that I 280 00:18:59,720 --> 00:19:03,040 Speaker 1: want to know. But the notion of feral children and 281 00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:06,440 Speaker 1: of the idea of like children being raised by wolves, 282 00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:08,440 Speaker 1: which has kind of become a bit of a parlance, 283 00:19:08,520 --> 00:19:11,640 Speaker 1: you know, just like of like a wild child or whatever, 284 00:19:12,600 --> 00:19:14,320 Speaker 1: pretty much entirely debunked. Right. 285 00:19:14,400 --> 00:19:18,280 Speaker 2: We do have a case of sisters Amala and Kamala 286 00:19:19,040 --> 00:19:22,560 Speaker 2: who were found living, you know, rough in the wilderness 287 00:19:22,600 --> 00:19:27,080 Speaker 2: in India. They were described in scientific writings at the time. 288 00:19:27,119 --> 00:19:29,359 Speaker 2: I guess, you know, results may vary in terms of 289 00:19:29,680 --> 00:19:32,840 Speaker 2: how vigilant the science was, but in nineteen twenty six 290 00:19:32,880 --> 00:19:34,240 Speaker 2: is having been quote unquote. 291 00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:36,000 Speaker 1: Raised by wolves in the forests of India. 292 00:19:36,080 --> 00:19:40,000 Speaker 2: But again, much more likely that they were early examples, 293 00:19:40,160 --> 00:19:42,120 Speaker 2: early documented examples of autism. 294 00:19:42,560 --> 00:19:45,600 Speaker 1: Well, yeah, we do know that. I'm glad you're bringing 295 00:19:45,680 --> 00:19:50,639 Speaker 1: this up. We do know there are examples of quote 296 00:19:50,720 --> 00:19:56,120 Speaker 1: unquote feral children who were taken care of by animals, 297 00:19:56,280 --> 00:20:01,879 Speaker 1: but those are exceedingly rare. The times that those things 298 00:20:02,040 --> 00:20:06,800 Speaker 1: may have happened, they gave way to a thousand ships 299 00:20:07,040 --> 00:20:11,840 Speaker 1: of folklore and mythology like Romulus and Remus. That would 300 00:20:11,840 --> 00:20:15,960 Speaker 1: be the earliest example, right of humans raised by wolves. 301 00:20:16,520 --> 00:20:22,639 Speaker 1: And yeah, so it's extremely uncommon for that to occur. 302 00:20:29,600 --> 00:20:35,160 Speaker 1: We do know that domestic dogs right now are more 303 00:20:35,440 --> 00:20:43,160 Speaker 1: vigilant than wolves, and they were bred to be increasingly vigilant. 304 00:20:43,400 --> 00:20:47,240 Speaker 1: This is where we get to, I would say, a 305 00:20:47,320 --> 00:20:52,960 Speaker 1: morally or ethically gray part of the equation. Domestication does 306 00:20:53,080 --> 00:20:57,680 Speaker 1: give you superpowers, but it is also a Faustian bargain 307 00:20:57,840 --> 00:21:02,680 Speaker 1: because were these early humanmans that were breeding dogs to 308 00:21:02,800 --> 00:21:06,679 Speaker 1: be useful to them? Were they not programming those dogs 309 00:21:07,320 --> 00:21:10,760 Speaker 1: with more anxiety than the dogs would have had they 310 00:21:10,960 --> 00:21:14,240 Speaker 1: if they stayed wolves? How are the dogs always like, 311 00:21:14,480 --> 00:21:15,200 Speaker 1: what's happening? 312 00:21:15,880 --> 00:21:16,440 Speaker 2: What? Yeah? 313 00:21:16,840 --> 00:21:22,560 Speaker 1: Whoa? Whoa? Yeah, what's going on? Also, dogs learned a 314 00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:29,280 Speaker 1: language that wolves don't speak. Dogs bark. Dogs can howl 315 00:21:29,920 --> 00:21:32,680 Speaker 1: just like a wolf, some of them at least, But 316 00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:38,360 Speaker 1: wolves don't bark. That's true. They growl and they howl, 317 00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:39,800 Speaker 1: but I don't think I've ever heard a wolf bark. 318 00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:43,520 Speaker 1: Seeing them bite, that's yeah, sure, yeah, yeah, their bite 319 00:21:43,760 --> 00:21:48,720 Speaker 1: is worse than their bark. So we also see that. 320 00:21:50,119 --> 00:21:53,840 Speaker 1: You know, there's this earlier point raised about domestication as 321 00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:57,320 Speaker 1: a two way street. You can argue that the wolves 322 00:21:57,640 --> 00:22:02,160 Speaker 1: evolving to dogs that process, they also evolve to hack 323 00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:10,040 Speaker 1: human psychology. Sure that the infantile features, the fancy work 324 00:22:10,160 --> 00:22:12,080 Speaker 1: for it is pedamorphic, the. 325 00:22:13,680 --> 00:22:16,520 Speaker 2: You know, the the qt eyes that a dog will 326 00:22:16,560 --> 00:22:19,680 Speaker 2: make looking up at you all forlorn or you know, 327 00:22:19,800 --> 00:22:24,080 Speaker 2: excited or whatever, like its actually its master's feet. Certainly, 328 00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:27,159 Speaker 2: things like fetching you know, a stick or whatever, various 329 00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:31,600 Speaker 2: adaptations that make them more appealing to humans because over 330 00:22:31,720 --> 00:22:36,280 Speaker 2: time those yielded positive survival based results. 331 00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:41,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, and we don't have to just speculate about dogs 332 00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:46,920 Speaker 1: for this. We can see a pretty fantastic experiment from 333 00:22:47,040 --> 00:22:51,040 Speaker 1: the nineteen fifties that proves this can happen with other 334 00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:55,760 Speaker 1: things similar to dogs. We know about the Russian scientist 335 00:22:56,200 --> 00:23:01,480 Speaker 1: Dmitri Belyev, who started he captured a bunch of silver 336 00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:05,640 Speaker 1: foxes like Richard Gere right, right, he got a bunch 337 00:23:05,680 --> 00:23:09,800 Speaker 1: of zaddies or whatever whatever you wish you add. These 338 00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:14,760 Speaker 1: were foxes that would have ordinarily been captured, bread for 339 00:23:14,840 --> 00:23:17,840 Speaker 1: a bit and then skinned in a fur farm. And 340 00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:20,960 Speaker 1: he said, what if I what if I try to 341 00:23:21,960 --> 00:23:27,000 Speaker 1: selectively breed them and make a domestic fox? If I 342 00:23:27,119 --> 00:23:32,879 Speaker 1: make them tamer over time, over each successive generation. And 343 00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:36,200 Speaker 1: he did just what the what we think the early 344 00:23:36,320 --> 00:23:40,399 Speaker 1: humans did. He chose foxes that were bold enough to 345 00:23:40,520 --> 00:23:43,840 Speaker 1: be around humans, not timid enough to run away, but 346 00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:47,399 Speaker 1: not too aggressive to instantly bite them in the throat. 347 00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:52,840 Speaker 1: He chose for tolerance and lo and behold. Over time, 348 00:23:53,520 --> 00:23:59,639 Speaker 1: these foxes became tamer. However, they also got their floppity 349 00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:04,040 Speaker 1: ear yep, and the early Q tales, Yeah, yeah, they 350 00:24:04,119 --> 00:24:07,440 Speaker 1: got They got cuter, they became kawhi. I was about 351 00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:09,760 Speaker 1: to say the same thing, then, oh, my goodness got 352 00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:10,760 Speaker 1: of my head. That's amazing. 353 00:24:10,840 --> 00:24:13,720 Speaker 2: No, but also that I have to ask, though, why 354 00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:17,080 Speaker 2: don't we hear about domesticated foxes that much? No, I 355 00:24:17,119 --> 00:24:19,760 Speaker 2: don't know anybody that has a domesticated fox as a pet. 356 00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:21,560 Speaker 2: This experiment not last. 357 00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:26,280 Speaker 1: It did last. I will give you the answers, though, uh, 358 00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:31,120 Speaker 1: first and foremost they're kind of clamped down on. It's 359 00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:35,720 Speaker 1: a little bit difficult to get one, especially if you 360 00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:39,360 Speaker 1: want to make a breeding population. Here's what I think. 361 00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:45,560 Speaker 1: The real answer is, fox urine smells terrible. Really, it's 362 00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:52,000 Speaker 1: so bad, okay, huh, astonishingly repugnant. I had no idea, 363 00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:54,720 Speaker 1: and you know that's glad. I'm glad. Don't experience no 364 00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:58,680 Speaker 1: no fox, just wave taking a picture and go, I'll 365 00:24:58,720 --> 00:24:59,399 Speaker 1: give it a pass. 366 00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:03,000 Speaker 2: I can't help though, in talking about this experiment here 367 00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:06,560 Speaker 2: and thinking about one of our very first Ridiculous History 368 00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:12,480 Speaker 2: episodes where in Napoleon got absolutely inundated by domesticated bunny 369 00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:15,600 Speaker 2: rabbits mob who yeah, mobs, you know, like totally almost 370 00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:18,040 Speaker 2: knocked over his coach and his carriage and all that. 371 00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:24,119 Speaker 2: Because you'll remember if old school Ridiculous History heads that 372 00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:28,440 Speaker 2: they were domesticated, therefore they feared no human. In fact, 373 00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:30,320 Speaker 2: they loved them just so much and just wanted to 374 00:25:30,359 --> 00:25:33,240 Speaker 2: snuggle up on them, as opposed to a wild hair 375 00:25:33,600 --> 00:25:36,080 Speaker 2: which would of course run from the humans and give 376 00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:39,760 Speaker 2: chase and be a much more fun experience for a hunt. 377 00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:45,720 Speaker 1: Get it wild hair, Yeah, I got it. So this 378 00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:50,640 Speaker 1: guy when he creates these foxes, he notices the bark boar, 379 00:25:51,119 --> 00:25:56,400 Speaker 1: and he also notices that they tend to reproduce more often. 380 00:25:57,440 --> 00:26:01,760 Speaker 1: These foxes indeed had a lot of the same qualities 381 00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:05,560 Speaker 1: we see in dogs, but none of the same qualities 382 00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:10,199 Speaker 1: we see in wolves. Retaining these juvenile features to your 383 00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:15,480 Speaker 1: earlier point, it is evolutionarily advantageous. Look at those eyes. 384 00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:19,960 Speaker 1: Trust me say the features. I'm rolling around my belly 385 00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:23,800 Speaker 1: when my cute little tail help me. Love me this 386 00:26:24,080 --> 00:26:29,160 Speaker 1: it's not manipulation either. It's like behavior that just becomes 387 00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:33,720 Speaker 1: innate over time because of the positive results that it yields. Right, 388 00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:37,159 Speaker 1: the dogs are the foxes that can do this, are 389 00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:40,320 Speaker 1: capable of doing this, They're the ones that are more 390 00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:44,359 Speaker 1: likely to reproduce. This brings us to another superpower of 391 00:26:44,520 --> 00:26:51,159 Speaker 1: the dog, a superpower of domestication, facial expressions. If you 392 00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:54,080 Speaker 1: are in love with dogs and you got a pooch 393 00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:56,720 Speaker 1: that is very close to you, and you always think, 394 00:26:57,119 --> 00:27:01,000 Speaker 1: how does this how's this little doggo know what's going 395 00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:05,280 Speaker 1: on with me? How does this guy read the room. Uh. 396 00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:09,320 Speaker 1: It turns out it's the ven diagram thing. Again. Wolves 397 00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:14,520 Speaker 1: and humans use facial cues when they are communicating in 398 00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:16,760 Speaker 1: their social environment and their cohort. 399 00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:17,439 Speaker 2: Uh. 400 00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:22,560 Speaker 1: But the ability to read facial cues in humans is 401 00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:27,040 Speaker 1: incredibly enhanced in domestic dogs. That's where they do like 402 00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:31,120 Speaker 1: Gaye alternation. So if you, like, if you've ever seen 403 00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:33,800 Speaker 1: a dog who is trying to get you to help 404 00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:37,119 Speaker 1: them solve a problem, they might stare at you and 405 00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:40,960 Speaker 1: just keep flicking their eyes over this way, like, what's 406 00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:48,120 Speaker 1: over there? What's going on over there? It's bro, you've 407 00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:51,120 Speaker 1: got thumbs man, Well, you know it's funny. 408 00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:55,120 Speaker 2: A minute ago I said that this behavior wasn't necessarily manipulation, 409 00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:56,240 Speaker 2: but that I don't know. 410 00:27:56,240 --> 00:27:58,040 Speaker 1: I think to me, that opens up a bigger question. 411 00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:01,159 Speaker 2: It's almost like, even we as humans, is anything we 412 00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:05,600 Speaker 2: do towards anybody showing signs of affection, is that ultimately 413 00:28:05,720 --> 00:28:08,560 Speaker 2: just manipulation to get what we want? If you look 414 00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:10,760 Speaker 2: at it and dissect it and cut it enough ways, 415 00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:13,879 Speaker 2: the answer could be yes. So the question then becomes 416 00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:17,280 Speaker 2: like our dogs, actually, do they care about us? 417 00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:21,600 Speaker 1: Or are we just a means to an end for them? Right? Yeah, 418 00:28:21,800 --> 00:28:28,120 Speaker 1: It's a question that plagues all living things. Does altruism exist? Right? 419 00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:33,200 Speaker 1: So do you want the best for another living thing 420 00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:36,920 Speaker 1: in the void of reality or do you only do 421 00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:39,480 Speaker 1: that because you want the best for yourself? You know 422 00:28:39,520 --> 00:28:40,360 Speaker 1: what I mean? Yeah? 423 00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:42,520 Speaker 2: I mean, you know, you could argue, maybe it's a 424 00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:44,200 Speaker 2: bit of a nihilist way of looking at it, that 425 00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:47,280 Speaker 2: any act of kindness is ultimately an act of selfishness 426 00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:50,520 Speaker 2: because you're doing it to either make yourself feel better 427 00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:54,720 Speaker 2: or to improve your standing and be seen in a 428 00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:56,960 Speaker 2: certain way. You know, I don't think that's true. I'm 429 00:28:57,000 --> 00:28:59,160 Speaker 2: just saying this is getting me thinking about stuff. 430 00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:01,200 Speaker 1: Like that, that's all Youah, No, I like it. Let's 431 00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:04,560 Speaker 1: walk a little further down then, because you could argue 432 00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:07,880 Speaker 1: in that vein that the best contrast to that would 433 00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:13,560 Speaker 1: be the fact that people sometimes help other folks with 434 00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:17,480 Speaker 1: no external benefit. A lot of folks who are tuning 435 00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:20,560 Speaker 1: in tonight, of course you're the best audience in all 436 00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:26,360 Speaker 1: of podcasting. Yea, You've helped this stranger who may have 437 00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:29,560 Speaker 1: never met may have never met you, you may never 438 00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:34,840 Speaker 1: meet them. You felt better, and so optimistic nihilism might 439 00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:40,000 Speaker 1: argue that you did that because it made you feel good. Still, externally, 440 00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:44,560 Speaker 1: you have no benefit. You simply helped another thing that 441 00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:47,920 Speaker 1: exists for sure, And I will say that I think 442 00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:52,240 Speaker 1: the psychology of the human experience is arguably a little 443 00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:54,680 Speaker 1: more complex than that of the canine experience. 444 00:29:54,760 --> 00:29:59,000 Speaker 2: So I think for some people that internal treat is 445 00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:01,920 Speaker 2: maybe just as power for the dog the external treat. 446 00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:07,120 Speaker 1: Yeah. Also, humans are at a great disadvantage because they're 447 00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:11,920 Speaker 1: studying themselves. I would love to hear cognition, yeah, thinking 448 00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:16,280 Speaker 1: about thinking, that's metacognition. I would love to hear from 449 00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:23,480 Speaker 1: a canine psychologist, from a canine behavioral therapist. Right, why 450 00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:26,760 Speaker 1: does man fetch? I did see a headline the other day. 451 00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:28,800 Speaker 2: I did not read past it, but it said that 452 00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:31,960 Speaker 2: it within a decade or so, we may have technology 453 00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:35,040 Speaker 2: will allow us to quote unquote speak to our pets. 454 00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:39,720 Speaker 1: Yes, there are things that are quite controversial now, usually 455 00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:44,480 Speaker 1: paw pads where the dog can hit can hit a 456 00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:49,200 Speaker 1: button that will translate to a human noise like walk treat, 457 00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:55,400 Speaker 1: et cetera. However, it's still pretty dicey because it goes 458 00:30:55,480 --> 00:30:59,720 Speaker 1: back to the days of chickens and horses counting in carnivals, 459 00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:04,480 Speaker 1: which parlor trick which was a parlor trick. Absolutely, we're 460 00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:07,800 Speaker 1: probably going to be able to talk to cetaceans. First. 461 00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:13,000 Speaker 1: There's some really interesting whale I can't believe I'm saying 462 00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:18,760 Speaker 1: this on air. Whale translation apps, okay, are are being made, 463 00:31:19,080 --> 00:31:22,680 Speaker 1: uh bray world, maybe in a positive sense for this, 464 00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:25,240 Speaker 1: I don't know why not Right at the end, you 465 00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:27,240 Speaker 1: know what I mean. Right at the end, we'll get 466 00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:30,000 Speaker 1: some cool stuff. Uh the end of the podcast or 467 00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:34,040 Speaker 1: the end of the world, you know, nothing else. Yeah, 468 00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:36,480 Speaker 1: right right at the beginning of the end of the world. 469 00:31:36,600 --> 00:31:38,400 Speaker 1: I think our podcast is going to go on for 470 00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:41,800 Speaker 1: a while, onish on that. Yeah, until the end of 471 00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:45,080 Speaker 1: the world. Yeah, I hope. So, I hope you feel 472 00:31:45,120 --> 00:31:45,640 Speaker 1: the same way. 473 00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:46,320 Speaker 2: You know I do. 474 00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:48,080 Speaker 1: Oh, I very much do. I would love to. 475 00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:50,520 Speaker 2: I would podcast with you from the deck of the 476 00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:52,600 Speaker 2: Titanic Ben Oh geez. 477 00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:55,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, we got to get a violin guy to play too. 478 00:31:55,880 --> 00:31:57,760 Speaker 1: I can play the violin. I'll be I know, I 479 00:31:57,800 --> 00:32:01,080 Speaker 1: can be the guy. I could be both guys. So 480 00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:04,440 Speaker 1: all right, here's the craziest thing. You may be a 481 00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:08,320 Speaker 1: dog lover, and you've maybe never heard this. We said 482 00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:12,920 Speaker 1: dogs understand things that other non human animals don't. Dogs 483 00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:18,080 Speaker 1: understand when you nod, and they understand why you're nodding, 484 00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:21,280 Speaker 1: and they follow the direction in your face. Dogs are 485 00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:25,680 Speaker 1: one of the only non human animals that understands what 486 00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:29,840 Speaker 1: you mean when you point at something. A lot of 487 00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:35,960 Speaker 1: other primates here us closely primates don't understand pointing. You could. 488 00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:39,040 Speaker 1: You could be hanging out with a gorilla. Again, no 489 00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:42,360 Speaker 1: eye contact, be safe. You could point at something and 490 00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:45,600 Speaker 1: it would just be like this loser, I got fingers too. 491 00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:48,800 Speaker 2: I think that Coco the gorilla could understand pointing pretty 492 00:32:48,800 --> 00:32:50,520 Speaker 2: well though, if I'm not mistaken. 493 00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:53,400 Speaker 1: Ah, Coco can understand hand signals. 494 00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:57,320 Speaker 2: Okay, all right, picture you know if you're right, though, Ben, 495 00:32:57,360 --> 00:33:01,120 Speaker 2: the idea of pointing, we think of it as obvious, like, Okay, 496 00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:03,600 Speaker 2: if I'm pointing my finger out a thing, you should 497 00:33:03,680 --> 00:33:07,680 Speaker 2: direct your gaze to that. But without that context, maybe 498 00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:11,760 Speaker 2: it is a little more abstract. Given it credit, they're like, 499 00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:17,240 Speaker 2: these guys are doing weird stretches. But for whatever reasons, 500 00:33:17,280 --> 00:33:20,560 Speaker 2: You're right, dogs will direct their gaze in the direction 501 00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:21,800 Speaker 2: of the point. 502 00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:26,160 Speaker 1: Yeah. Dogs can read the room, just like most humans 503 00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:29,720 Speaker 1: who are not on four chan. They walk down the 504 00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:30,280 Speaker 1: street for that. 505 00:33:30,320 --> 00:33:34,600 Speaker 2: One yeah, manbit hole, and know we got to get 506 00:33:34,600 --> 00:33:38,080 Speaker 2: to something called the love hormone. Well, this is I think, 507 00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:43,959 Speaker 2: really really key in what makes dog goes so incredibly 508 00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:48,600 Speaker 2: appealing as companions to human beings. The idea that a 509 00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:54,280 Speaker 2: dog can sense the emotional state of a person and 510 00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:56,880 Speaker 2: act accordingly or react accordingly. 511 00:33:57,360 --> 00:34:01,280 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, part of it is the amazing sense of smell, 512 00:34:01,760 --> 00:34:08,400 Speaker 1: the hyper focus on your nonverbal expressions or body language. Also, 513 00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:13,920 Speaker 1: domestic dogs and their human pals have something called oxytocin. 514 00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:21,080 Speaker 1: This is why I don't want to answer pomorphize too much, 515 00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:24,920 Speaker 1: but this is why when you see cute things, you 516 00:34:25,120 --> 00:34:27,920 Speaker 1: think they are cute if you are human. When you 517 00:34:28,040 --> 00:34:31,840 Speaker 1: see like we're describing, right, the big eyes, the big ears, 518 00:34:32,080 --> 00:34:41,680 Speaker 1: the tiny mouth. Yeah, I mean there's a reason that, 519 00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:42,960 Speaker 1: you know, depending on who you are. 520 00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:46,520 Speaker 2: Most people think babies are cute because we're supposed to 521 00:34:46,680 --> 00:34:49,920 Speaker 2: like love them instantly and want to protect them at 522 00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:53,640 Speaker 2: all costs. And them being cute and having those doe 523 00:34:53,800 --> 00:34:56,560 Speaker 2: eyes or whatever. It is a I guess not skill. 524 00:34:56,920 --> 00:34:59,759 Speaker 2: Well as you call it adaptation, maybe that makes that 525 00:35:00,239 --> 00:35:00,839 Speaker 2: more likely. 526 00:35:01,560 --> 00:35:06,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, So your dog friends are so sensitive to everything 527 00:35:06,160 --> 00:35:09,839 Speaker 1: about you when they see you smile. Get this, They 528 00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:13,520 Speaker 1: understand that you are happy, and if you do a 529 00:35:13,680 --> 00:35:17,799 Speaker 1: fake smile, they'll probably know you're faking it. It makes 530 00:35:17,920 --> 00:35:21,839 Speaker 1: them happy to see you happy, and then it makes 531 00:35:21,960 --> 00:35:25,160 Speaker 1: you happy to see them happy. You get a feedback loop. 532 00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:27,879 Speaker 1: Next thing, you know, you have a bro for life. 533 00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:29,279 Speaker 1: It's a real love fest. 534 00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:31,239 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean, I think this is the real 535 00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:36,759 Speaker 2: crucial feature that makes that bond between a dog and 536 00:35:36,800 --> 00:35:43,319 Speaker 2: they're human so incredibly strong and so incredibly traumatic when 537 00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:46,480 Speaker 2: when a beloved dog passes away, because it's like losing 538 00:35:46,520 --> 00:35:49,000 Speaker 2: a member of the family, it's like losing someone that 539 00:35:49,080 --> 00:35:52,600 Speaker 2: you actually have an emotional connection with. Because of these 540 00:35:52,640 --> 00:35:53,800 Speaker 2: exact things that you're describing. 541 00:35:54,160 --> 00:35:58,000 Speaker 1: Mm hmm, yeah, one hundred percent, well said. We know 542 00:35:58,560 --> 00:36:04,760 Speaker 1: the psychological ass there, We know the adaptations of domestication. 543 00:36:05,960 --> 00:36:11,560 Speaker 1: They extend to physiological aspects beyond what you would call 544 00:36:13,239 --> 00:36:19,440 Speaker 1: retention of juvenile traits. Dogs have developed facial musculature in 545 00:36:19,680 --> 00:36:23,759 Speaker 1: their evolution. It's one of the things they could do 546 00:36:24,320 --> 00:36:27,719 Speaker 1: is furrow the brow, you know, tilt the head. I'm confused, 547 00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:29,960 Speaker 1: what's going on? Where is the ball? 548 00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:33,600 Speaker 2: The term puppy dog ey speaking of like domestication of 549 00:36:33,719 --> 00:36:37,480 Speaker 2: humans by dogs. That's become a term that is applied 550 00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:40,640 Speaker 2: to the way humans look at each other, making puppy 551 00:36:40,719 --> 00:36:45,040 Speaker 2: dog eyes when you want someone to feel a certain way, 552 00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:47,000 Speaker 2: whether it's a little kid that's trying to get a 553 00:36:47,040 --> 00:36:49,440 Speaker 2: certain reaction out of their parent. But you're right, then 554 00:36:49,560 --> 00:36:53,759 Speaker 2: those changes in muscles and actual a development of new 555 00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:56,680 Speaker 2: muscles and the ability to control them is part of 556 00:36:56,760 --> 00:37:00,640 Speaker 2: that long game of evolution and domestication. 557 00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:04,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you're right. No, if you we found a 558 00:37:04,680 --> 00:37:09,840 Speaker 1: fascinating study. If you go to an animal shelter, and 559 00:37:10,120 --> 00:37:12,920 Speaker 1: you always should, it's it's a fun way to volunteer, 560 00:37:13,760 --> 00:37:17,920 Speaker 1: you will see that dogs who have puppy dog eyes, 561 00:37:18,280 --> 00:37:24,200 Speaker 1: who have that stereotypically worried or sad expression as humans 562 00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:29,360 Speaker 1: experience it, they are adopted more quickly, which again shows 563 00:37:29,520 --> 00:37:36,600 Speaker 1: us that ancient selective advantage. They are genetically programmed to 564 00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:41,080 Speaker 1: hack the human mind. Unfortunately, this does come with a 565 00:37:41,120 --> 00:37:46,080 Speaker 1: bit of a price. Go back to our hippo example. 566 00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:51,200 Speaker 1: If a hippo as tame as it could be is 567 00:37:51,840 --> 00:37:56,120 Speaker 1: abused by humans, it's not going to mess with humans 568 00:37:56,160 --> 00:38:01,200 Speaker 1: again in a non confrontational way. It is going to 569 00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:05,560 Speaker 1: hate all humans because it will recognize a threat, but 570 00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:09,920 Speaker 1: a dog amid so many other animals in this wide world, 571 00:38:10,640 --> 00:38:14,200 Speaker 1: a dog can be abused by one group of humans 572 00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:20,239 Speaker 1: and then instantly bond with another group of humans, for sure. 573 00:38:20,560 --> 00:38:22,400 Speaker 2: But then on the flip side of that, I have 574 00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:25,640 Speaker 2: I had a situation where a girl I was dating 575 00:38:26,040 --> 00:38:28,680 Speaker 2: at the time lived with, you know, a couple of folks, 576 00:38:28,719 --> 00:38:30,160 Speaker 2: and one of them had a dog who was a 577 00:38:30,280 --> 00:38:33,640 Speaker 2: rescue as a pit and hated to me. He had 578 00:38:33,680 --> 00:38:36,640 Speaker 2: been well, it was more than that, he hated bearded dudes, 579 00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:40,920 Speaker 2: and they had to put this dog o away every 580 00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:45,319 Speaker 2: time I came over, and over the course of that relationship, 581 00:38:45,680 --> 00:38:49,279 Speaker 2: I was able to kind of, you know, earn the 582 00:38:49,400 --> 00:38:53,680 Speaker 2: dog's trust, but it was very innate, like it was 583 00:38:53,760 --> 00:38:56,719 Speaker 2: specifically singling out me as a bearded man because they 584 00:38:56,760 --> 00:38:59,520 Speaker 2: said the person that had him before was a bearded man. 585 00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:04,600 Speaker 1: Was a real, real pill. Well, you reached a ceasefire, though, 586 00:39:05,000 --> 00:39:07,840 Speaker 1: what you couldn't do with a with a wild animal 587 00:39:07,920 --> 00:39:11,560 Speaker 1: with most other animals, right, I got in a situation 588 00:39:11,680 --> 00:39:15,600 Speaker 1: with a parrot one time, and she's terrifying. Yeah, Well, 589 00:39:15,719 --> 00:39:17,880 Speaker 1: I'm gonna be honest with you. As a lover of 590 00:39:18,120 --> 00:39:23,879 Speaker 1: all animals, I wish that parrot specifically the worst. Yeah, 591 00:39:25,480 --> 00:39:27,920 Speaker 1: just that one little more bird hate. Come on, man, No, 592 00:39:28,280 --> 00:39:32,560 Speaker 1: just that one. There's just that one. But also we 593 00:39:32,800 --> 00:39:36,080 Speaker 1: have to see that there is a higher tendency toward 594 00:39:36,280 --> 00:39:40,879 Speaker 1: conflict avoidant behavior towards humans on the part of a dog, 595 00:39:41,440 --> 00:39:47,120 Speaker 1: and there's this increased inclination to want humans to like you, 596 00:39:47,719 --> 00:39:50,960 Speaker 1: or at least certain humans to your earlier example, perhaps 597 00:39:51,120 --> 00:39:56,239 Speaker 1: most different from wolves in the psychological aspect. Dogs are 598 00:39:56,320 --> 00:40:01,759 Speaker 1: a big fan of learning human rules and remembering those 599 00:40:01,880 --> 00:40:07,480 Speaker 1: rules and following those rules all for the approval and 600 00:40:07,640 --> 00:40:12,640 Speaker 1: consistent food from the humans. And we are coming right 601 00:40:12,840 --> 00:40:15,439 Speaker 1: up on I think what will be my favorite part 602 00:40:15,480 --> 00:40:18,160 Speaker 1: of this entire series. Forgive me, Ben, I've teased it 603 00:40:18,280 --> 00:40:21,520 Speaker 1: multiple times, but I think it's been clear throughout all 604 00:40:21,560 --> 00:40:24,719 Speaker 1: of our discussions that there are certain animals that are 605 00:40:24,840 --> 00:40:30,680 Speaker 1: much more inclined towards domestication. And it's because of certain 606 00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:34,720 Speaker 1: traits that they kind of innately have just by virtue 607 00:40:34,800 --> 00:40:37,759 Speaker 1: of being what they are, that makes them more likely 608 00:40:37,880 --> 00:40:43,680 Speaker 1: candidates for domestication. Yes, more domesticatable. God, I love how 609 00:40:43,880 --> 00:40:49,080 Speaker 1: ridiculous the English language is. Yeah, it's exceedingly rare to 610 00:40:49,440 --> 00:40:53,919 Speaker 1: domesticate a non human animal. Lets you know what, let's 611 00:40:54,000 --> 00:40:58,400 Speaker 1: go right to it. Professor Jared Diamond over at UCLA, 612 00:40:59,400 --> 00:41:04,279 Speaker 1: probably famous for his book Guns, Germs and Steel. We 613 00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:07,360 Speaker 1: know it's a little controversial. He is a prominent author 614 00:41:08,200 --> 00:41:11,680 Speaker 1: in the vein of Mark Kurlansky or our buddy ve 615 00:41:11,719 --> 00:41:15,600 Speaker 1: All Noah Harari mre that sapiens of course. 616 00:41:15,880 --> 00:41:19,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, fabulous, fabulous writer, really great way of crystallizing some 617 00:41:19,640 --> 00:41:22,960 Speaker 2: pretty lofty concepts in a very understandable way. 618 00:41:23,400 --> 00:41:27,239 Speaker 1: So Professor Diamond, which is such a ridiculously cool name. 619 00:41:27,600 --> 00:41:30,839 Speaker 2: One, if he's related to Dustin Diamond, if you saved 620 00:41:30,840 --> 00:41:32,239 Speaker 2: by the bell he was screech. 621 00:41:32,400 --> 00:41:36,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, he screech has been through it also would be 622 00:41:36,840 --> 00:41:40,440 Speaker 1: cool to call him doctor Diamond. But no, this is something, 623 00:41:40,640 --> 00:41:44,719 Speaker 1: as you said, we're both very excited about. According to 624 00:41:45,360 --> 00:41:52,239 Speaker 1: Professor Diamond, there are six basic criteria for domestica dobility, 625 00:41:53,000 --> 00:41:56,040 Speaker 1: which again English language, Oh yeah, gotta love it. 626 00:41:56,360 --> 00:41:58,319 Speaker 2: The first one I think we've we've made really cleared 627 00:41:58,360 --> 00:42:00,759 Speaker 2: just this in this discussion, and it makes a whole 628 00:42:00,840 --> 00:42:02,520 Speaker 2: heck of a lot of sense. The animal needs to 629 00:42:02,760 --> 00:42:05,640 Speaker 2: be able to eat lots of different things and be 630 00:42:05,960 --> 00:42:09,080 Speaker 2: kind of malleable in that, you know, not needing to 631 00:42:09,239 --> 00:42:12,279 Speaker 2: have food from a certain type of source every single time, 632 00:42:12,560 --> 00:42:13,200 Speaker 2: be willing to. 633 00:42:13,520 --> 00:42:17,040 Speaker 1: Like the early wolves, the pre dog wolves live off 634 00:42:17,120 --> 00:42:21,400 Speaker 1: of the scraps of humans. Yeah, no, picky eaters. And 635 00:42:22,320 --> 00:42:26,239 Speaker 1: number two, the animals need to grow up quickly or 636 00:42:26,320 --> 00:42:31,239 Speaker 1: at least faster than humans and often faster than their 637 00:42:31,400 --> 00:42:35,680 Speaker 1: wild counterparts. Going back to our example about the the 638 00:42:35,760 --> 00:42:39,320 Speaker 1: silver or Finnic foxes, think about it. You know again, 639 00:42:39,400 --> 00:42:43,160 Speaker 1: you're a hunter gatherer, you're classic human, live in your 640 00:42:43,320 --> 00:42:48,480 Speaker 1: classic human life. There's not really a good return on 641 00:42:48,719 --> 00:42:54,520 Speaker 1: investment for you to domesticate very long lived animals like 642 00:42:54,600 --> 00:42:59,200 Speaker 1: a galapago sea turtle. Oh yeah, it wouldn't take or 643 00:42:59,200 --> 00:43:00,880 Speaker 1: it would just take too damn long. How are you 644 00:43:00,920 --> 00:43:04,320 Speaker 1: gonna do that? It's gonna be years before they're useful, 645 00:43:04,600 --> 00:43:09,359 Speaker 1: their reproduction cycle is off. And then also a lot 646 00:43:09,440 --> 00:43:12,759 Speaker 1: of animals don't like to breed when they feel like 647 00:43:12,840 --> 00:43:13,520 Speaker 1: they're in jail. 648 00:43:13,960 --> 00:43:15,840 Speaker 2: Ben I gotta ask really quickly. Just to backtrack, you 649 00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:19,680 Speaker 2: mentioned tortoises with the long lifespan. Elephants is another thing 650 00:43:19,760 --> 00:43:22,239 Speaker 2: that the good Doctor Diamond mentioned. So does that mean 651 00:43:22,280 --> 00:43:24,800 Speaker 2: there was really no such thing? As war elephants like 652 00:43:24,880 --> 00:43:29,800 Speaker 2: we know them in you know, Roman battle scenarios like 653 00:43:30,120 --> 00:43:32,719 Speaker 2: illustrations and stuff, because was that a real thing? 654 00:43:33,160 --> 00:43:40,200 Speaker 1: Great question. Elephants African and Asian are phenomenally intelligent. They 655 00:43:40,239 --> 00:43:44,000 Speaker 1: are incredibly smart, smarter than dogs if we're being honest. 656 00:43:44,840 --> 00:43:50,040 Speaker 1: But they are not domesticated. They can be tamed, and 657 00:43:50,239 --> 00:43:56,000 Speaker 1: they are often forced into interactions in human society in 658 00:43:56,200 --> 00:43:58,960 Speaker 1: places like Thailand. Gotcha, you know? 659 00:43:59,000 --> 00:44:01,879 Speaker 2: Okay, so this is more of a training situation, right, 660 00:44:02,200 --> 00:44:04,360 Speaker 2: you know, like you know now that I think about it, 661 00:44:04,480 --> 00:44:08,120 Speaker 2: that they often offer like elephant rides at zews. I 662 00:44:08,160 --> 00:44:09,800 Speaker 2: think I did that when I was a kid. You know, 663 00:44:10,000 --> 00:44:12,279 Speaker 2: whatever ethics aside on that, but that makes a lot 664 00:44:12,320 --> 00:44:15,439 Speaker 2: of sense, pained, but not domesticating, that's right, because again, 665 00:44:15,480 --> 00:44:19,400 Speaker 2: the domestication is the sort of long term version of 666 00:44:19,480 --> 00:44:24,080 Speaker 2: the taming that requires reproduction over you know, many generations 667 00:44:24,280 --> 00:44:26,200 Speaker 2: for it to kind of take and to the point 668 00:44:26,239 --> 00:44:27,400 Speaker 2: of the long lifespan. 669 00:44:27,840 --> 00:44:31,360 Speaker 1: That is what makes these animals particularly poorly suited to 670 00:44:31,440 --> 00:44:35,560 Speaker 1: this kind of thing. Also, the third condition, and again 671 00:44:35,760 --> 00:44:39,239 Speaker 1: this is from Professor Diamond, the animals have to be 672 00:44:39,560 --> 00:44:45,080 Speaker 1: willing to breed in captivity in close quarters under human supervision. 673 00:44:45,360 --> 00:44:50,160 Speaker 1: So if you have a bunch of tigers, right, tremendously 674 00:44:50,280 --> 00:44:53,120 Speaker 1: intelligent animals. I mean, they're not as smart as an 675 00:44:53,160 --> 00:44:58,160 Speaker 1: elephant maybe, but they are smart cookies. They are boffins. 676 00:44:58,960 --> 00:45:02,279 Speaker 1: They need a lot if you put them, If you 677 00:45:02,480 --> 00:45:04,960 Speaker 1: just put them in a tiny, like human sized room 678 00:45:05,560 --> 00:45:11,520 Speaker 1: and say, okay, live together, have a issue, Yeah, we're good. 679 00:45:12,120 --> 00:45:15,400 Speaker 2: You know that's true of even just breeding in general 680 00:45:15,520 --> 00:45:17,839 Speaker 2: in captivity of the certain species. I heard a really 681 00:45:17,840 --> 00:45:20,200 Speaker 2: great piece on NPR a couple of months ago about 682 00:45:20,200 --> 00:45:24,400 Speaker 2: how difficult it is to breed eels in captivity, and 683 00:45:24,480 --> 00:45:27,640 Speaker 2: they are only a handful of folks, companies or what 684 00:45:27,760 --> 00:45:30,680 Speaker 2: have you that have kind of this proprietary method of 685 00:45:31,160 --> 00:45:34,600 Speaker 2: farming eels and breeding them in captivity, because they actually 686 00:45:34,760 --> 00:45:37,680 Speaker 2: typically the largest source of eels you know that we 687 00:45:37,800 --> 00:45:41,879 Speaker 2: see in things like sushi are fished wild, and there 688 00:45:42,000 --> 00:45:44,480 Speaker 2: is an overfishing problem with eels because it is so 689 00:45:44,600 --> 00:45:46,480 Speaker 2: difficult to breed them in captivity. 690 00:45:46,480 --> 00:45:50,640 Speaker 1: And they have a very sensitive reproductive cycle as well. Yeah, 691 00:45:51,640 --> 00:45:56,240 Speaker 1: this leads us to what I would call a soft 692 00:45:56,360 --> 00:46:01,279 Speaker 1: proposition on diamonds, part number four. Noel, tell me what 693 00:46:01,400 --> 00:46:04,400 Speaker 1: you think about this. The animals have to be quote 694 00:46:05,040 --> 00:46:06,320 Speaker 1: naturally pleasant. 695 00:46:06,840 --> 00:46:09,239 Speaker 2: Well, that's an interesting thing because all along we've been 696 00:46:09,280 --> 00:46:12,680 Speaker 2: talking about sort of the nature of that first I 697 00:46:12,800 --> 00:46:15,080 Speaker 2: keep calling it sort of the genesis of the dog, 698 00:46:15,280 --> 00:46:19,040 Speaker 2: that gray wolf species that meet cute, that meet cute. 699 00:46:19,040 --> 00:46:21,320 Speaker 2: Where they were kind of a little more chill. It 700 00:46:21,360 --> 00:46:25,840 Speaker 2: would seem that they that particular subs breed or subspecies 701 00:46:25,920 --> 00:46:27,759 Speaker 2: or whatever you want to call it. It's probably something 702 00:46:27,840 --> 00:46:29,800 Speaker 2: specific to call it, but I'm not a scientist. So 703 00:46:30,840 --> 00:46:34,000 Speaker 2: there was something about their constitution or their kind of 704 00:46:34,080 --> 00:46:37,360 Speaker 2: demeanor that led it to them being a perfect candidate 705 00:46:37,480 --> 00:46:41,520 Speaker 2: for ultimate domestication. But it's tough because it's like pleasantness, 706 00:46:41,640 --> 00:46:45,719 Speaker 2: it's very vague. But let's just qualify that a little 707 00:46:45,719 --> 00:46:51,360 Speaker 2: bit calmness. Natural calmness certain animals that are skittish or 708 00:46:51,840 --> 00:46:56,319 Speaker 2: easily spooked, for example, that doesn't bode particularly well for domestication. 709 00:46:56,880 --> 00:47:00,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, so number four is naturally pleasant. Number five called 710 00:47:01,000 --> 00:47:03,920 Speaker 1: keep your head and your wits about you right when 711 00:47:03,960 --> 00:47:08,560 Speaker 1: these crazy humans are asking you, you know, to fetch 712 00:47:08,640 --> 00:47:13,320 Speaker 1: them a ball. The number six is one of the 713 00:47:13,440 --> 00:47:17,360 Speaker 1: most I think behaviorally important. The animals need to be 714 00:47:17,560 --> 00:47:22,800 Speaker 1: willing to recognize humans as part of their in group 715 00:47:23,080 --> 00:47:24,719 Speaker 1: as part of their hierarchy. 716 00:47:25,080 --> 00:47:28,440 Speaker 2: That's right, And you know even with certain zoo animals, 717 00:47:28,520 --> 00:47:31,160 Speaker 2: we know that is a thing that doesn't work with 718 00:47:31,320 --> 00:47:34,080 Speaker 2: certain types of animals, Like I believe in China there 719 00:47:34,239 --> 00:47:36,919 Speaker 2: is a zoo or maybe this is common practice where 720 00:47:37,120 --> 00:47:39,520 Speaker 2: in order to raise certain types of pandas, the zoo 721 00:47:39,600 --> 00:47:42,880 Speaker 2: keepers dress up as pandas themselves, Yeah, in order to 722 00:47:42,960 --> 00:47:45,759 Speaker 2: handle them correctly. And that may well be like they 723 00:47:45,880 --> 00:47:48,600 Speaker 2: just don't want them to get too imprinted by humans. 724 00:47:49,320 --> 00:47:51,480 Speaker 2: So I'm not one hundred percent sure exactly what the 725 00:47:51,640 --> 00:47:54,320 Speaker 2: endgame there is, but to your point, like, we do 726 00:47:54,640 --> 00:47:58,279 Speaker 2: know that there are certain animals that are much more 727 00:47:58,480 --> 00:48:01,800 Speaker 2: likely to be imprinted by humans and other ones that 728 00:48:01,960 --> 00:48:02,680 Speaker 2: really resist it. 729 00:48:03,520 --> 00:48:07,160 Speaker 1: Yeah. Also, we got a deal on the costumes, thanks 730 00:48:07,239 --> 00:48:12,160 Speaker 1: Jeff Bezos. And with this, folks, we have so many 731 00:48:12,480 --> 00:48:17,279 Speaker 1: other questions and bits of ridiculous history to explore. This 732 00:48:17,520 --> 00:48:21,800 Speaker 1: conversation about dogs has inspired us. We're gonna be making 733 00:48:21,880 --> 00:48:26,080 Speaker 1: some episodes about dog breeds as well. Please send us 734 00:48:26,239 --> 00:48:30,520 Speaker 1: your favorites. We will probably also bust some myths about 735 00:48:30,640 --> 00:48:34,880 Speaker 1: dogs along the way in future episodes. In the meantime, 736 00:48:35,360 --> 00:48:38,160 Speaker 1: thank you so much for tuning in Big big thanks 737 00:48:38,200 --> 00:48:41,600 Speaker 1: to our super producer, mister Max Williams, who has been 738 00:48:41,680 --> 00:48:45,000 Speaker 1: a little bit off mic for this episode. That's okay, 739 00:48:45,120 --> 00:48:46,480 Speaker 1: we're just getting back from the holidays. 740 00:48:46,520 --> 00:48:49,120 Speaker 2: We're all getting our sea legs back underneath us. And 741 00:48:49,160 --> 00:48:51,680 Speaker 2: I think you still sore at us for pointing out 742 00:48:51,719 --> 00:48:52,480 Speaker 2: the dog stats. 743 00:48:52,960 --> 00:48:57,920 Speaker 1: I am yeah, okay, dude, okay, all right. I got 744 00:48:58,120 --> 00:49:01,320 Speaker 1: a way slowly like Homer Simps than another bush ido. 745 00:49:01,480 --> 00:49:03,799 Speaker 1: But you turned your camera on. That's good. 746 00:49:03,840 --> 00:49:06,359 Speaker 2: You'd love to see a beautiful faces and the huge 747 00:49:06,400 --> 00:49:08,840 Speaker 2: thanks to to a producer, Max Williams. Again, if you 748 00:49:08,880 --> 00:49:11,640 Speaker 2: already said it, I'm sorry I got distracted. Huge thanks 749 00:49:11,680 --> 00:49:14,359 Speaker 2: to Alex Williams who composed our theme. And by the way, 750 00:49:15,040 --> 00:49:17,120 Speaker 2: if you do want to reach out to any of 751 00:49:17,320 --> 00:49:19,359 Speaker 2: the three of us, except for Max because he's off 752 00:49:19,400 --> 00:49:20,360 Speaker 2: the social media. 753 00:49:20,160 --> 00:49:22,320 Speaker 1: You can't do so. Ben, How can people find you 754 00:49:22,480 --> 00:49:26,560 Speaker 1: if they so wish on the internets? Ah? Yes, further 755 00:49:26,680 --> 00:49:30,279 Speaker 1: into the breach, should you sip the social meds. You 756 00:49:30,360 --> 00:49:32,840 Speaker 1: can find me calling myself in a burst of creativity 757 00:49:32,920 --> 00:49:36,359 Speaker 1: at Ben Bullen on Instagram. You can find at Ben 758 00:49:36,440 --> 00:49:40,960 Speaker 1: Bullen hsw on X. You can also visit benbullin dot 759 00:49:41,120 --> 00:49:43,560 Speaker 1: com if you want to catch up with high Jinks, 760 00:49:43,880 --> 00:49:50,239 Speaker 1: Shenanigan's scenarios and adventures, and while you're snarios. While you're 761 00:49:50,360 --> 00:49:53,040 Speaker 1: up there, why not check out my good pal Noel 762 00:49:53,200 --> 00:49:58,239 Speaker 1: Brown's social media presence. Noel, are the rumors true? Are 763 00:49:58,280 --> 00:49:59,200 Speaker 1: you on Instagram? 764 00:49:59,520 --> 00:49:59,880 Speaker 2: All? Lie? 765 00:50:00,000 --> 00:50:01,680 Speaker 1: That's that's true. That's the only place I really hang out. 766 00:50:01,719 --> 00:50:04,360 Speaker 2: You can find me there at how now, Noel Brown 767 00:50:04,480 --> 00:50:06,440 Speaker 2: and Ben Can I also just thank you for this 768 00:50:06,560 --> 00:50:10,479 Speaker 2: incredible deep dive on the history of domestication and really 769 00:50:10,640 --> 00:50:14,800 Speaker 2: just on doggoes in general, really really excellent work on 770 00:50:14,920 --> 00:50:18,920 Speaker 2: the super in depth research briefs. It so joy to 771 00:50:19,160 --> 00:50:21,160 Speaker 2: discuss this with you, and I'm happy to be back 772 00:50:21,239 --> 00:50:24,680 Speaker 2: after a sizeable break. I think we both enjoyed the recharge. 773 00:50:24,760 --> 00:50:27,960 Speaker 2: But we're back and we're better than ever and excited 774 00:50:28,040 --> 00:50:28,600 Speaker 2: for a new year. 775 00:50:29,080 --> 00:50:31,880 Speaker 1: Oh gosh, thanks for saying that, Noll. It does mean 776 00:50:31,960 --> 00:50:35,080 Speaker 1: the world big thanks of course to Eve's Jeffcoat Chris 777 00:50:35,200 --> 00:50:39,000 Speaker 1: Frosiotis the Brew Dudes a ridiculous crime? And if you 778 00:50:39,320 --> 00:50:44,840 Speaker 1: disagree with my palell Nol regarding this episode, please please 779 00:50:44,920 --> 00:50:49,360 Speaker 1: please always remember we started a complaint department just for you. 780 00:50:49,920 --> 00:50:53,560 Speaker 1: Twenty four hours a day, seven days a week, anytime 781 00:50:53,640 --> 00:50:57,719 Speaker 1: of the year. We actually recommend sending it late at night. 782 00:50:58,280 --> 00:51:03,960 Speaker 1: Jonathan Strickland at iHeartMedia dot com our official complaint department. 783 00:51:05,560 --> 00:51:08,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, you'll definitely write you back, no question. We'll see 784 00:51:08,040 --> 00:51:17,560 Speaker 2: you next time, folks. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit 785 00:51:17,600 --> 00:51:20,680 Speaker 2: the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to 786 00:51:20,760 --> 00:51:21,640 Speaker 2: your favorite shows.