WEBVTT - How do dogs perceive time? 0:00:00.240 --> 0:00:02.880 Brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve Camray. 0:00:03.120 --> 0:00:07.480 It's ready. Are you welcome to Stuff you Should Know 0:00:08.080 --> 0:00:16.279 from house Stuff Works dot com? Hey, and welcome to 0:00:16.280 --> 0:00:22.440 the podcast. I'm Josh Clark. There's Charles Chuck Bryant Chuck. Yes, 0:00:22.640 --> 0:00:25.680 nice Chuck. We'll get to that in a second. Again, 0:00:26.400 --> 0:00:30.280 that's awesome. Chuck's barking because this is stuff you should know. 0:00:30.360 --> 0:00:33.520 And this particular stuff you should know is entitled how 0:00:33.560 --> 0:00:37.760 do dogs perceive time? And I said in dog language 0:00:37.800 --> 0:00:42.120 just then, I don't perceive time. That is up for debate, 0:00:42.159 --> 0:00:46.600 my friend, up for vigorous debate. All right, So chuck um, 0:00:46.680 --> 0:00:48.360 let me let me do a little intro here, a 0:00:48.360 --> 0:00:51.600 little lead in segway whatever spoiled your parade? There? What 0:00:51.640 --> 0:00:54.640 do we call him these days? What are we what segways? 0:00:54.720 --> 0:01:00.720 Lead ins intros intro schmickls um Chuck. About a year ago, 0:01:01.400 --> 0:01:05.960 well a year ago this month, Paris, well, France, Paris, 0:01:05.959 --> 0:01:11.840 France made history, legal history. Uh, they actually used a 0:01:11.920 --> 0:01:15.440 dog as a witness in a criminal case. Did they 0:01:15.440 --> 0:01:18.920 get the dog to bark at someone? Wow? I kid you, 0:01:18.920 --> 0:01:21.280 not like an intruder at the very least, and I 0:01:21.319 --> 0:01:24.560 hope I'm not in Bangladeshi newspaper here, um, because I 0:01:24.640 --> 0:01:28.160 found it, uh in the Daily Mail, which is not 0:01:28.200 --> 0:01:30.520 known for satire, but it's all. It can be known 0:01:30.560 --> 0:01:32.480 for poor reporting from time to time. So you may 0:01:32.520 --> 0:01:35.039 have egg on your face soon we'll find out. Um. 0:01:35.080 --> 0:01:37.600 But there was a dog named Scooby that was brought 0:01:37.720 --> 0:01:44.400 into a doesn't I should afford to this article? Um? 0:01:44.440 --> 0:01:47.400 There was a dog named Scooby that was brought into 0:01:47.720 --> 0:01:52.120 a murder case or a hearing to see if there 0:01:52.160 --> 0:01:55.760 was enough evidence to try a man for murder for 0:01:55.880 --> 0:01:58.600 something that was ruled a suicide. And the dog barked 0:01:58.640 --> 0:02:02.520 furiously at the alleged perpetrator and they gave him a 0:02:02.560 --> 0:02:05.440 Scooby snack. Yeah, so that was the last I heard. 0:02:05.440 --> 0:02:08.040 It was from a year ago, but there was some 0:02:08.200 --> 0:02:12.280 concern over whether the dog's memory would serve it or 0:02:12.320 --> 0:02:15.640 not because it had been two and a half years 0:02:15.680 --> 0:02:18.520 since the incident. Okay, that makes sense, and that's kind 0:02:18.520 --> 0:02:21.720 of key to how dogs may or may not perceive time. 0:02:22.480 --> 0:02:24.880 The best I could come up with that great? Thanks? 0:02:24.919 --> 0:02:29.519 So um what that what that betrays is a sense 0:02:29.720 --> 0:02:33.400 by at least the reporter and the courts in Paris 0:02:34.120 --> 0:02:38.639 that dogs have a memory, that they they if they 0:02:38.680 --> 0:02:43.440 have a memory, then they should be able to perceive time. Right, Chuck, 0:02:43.520 --> 0:02:48.000 let's talk about this. What is time? Well, you know 0:02:48.120 --> 0:02:50.560 my whole deal with time, I've said it before. What 0:02:50.720 --> 0:02:53.640 a little time is just abstract numbers on a calendar 0:02:53.760 --> 0:02:57.000 and and hands on a watch, aren't time? Well, yeah, no, 0:02:57.320 --> 0:03:00.480 what you're talking about is the human constructive time. Yes, 0:03:00.680 --> 0:03:04.200 based on twenty four hours, which all kind of arbitrary 0:03:04.240 --> 0:03:10.360 seven days in a week. There, well, not necessarily. Here's why. Uh, 0:03:10.639 --> 0:03:13.040 it was actually kind of ingenious that we should come 0:03:13.120 --> 0:03:15.800 up with the twenty four hour day. Because we have 0:03:15.880 --> 0:03:20.919 these things called circadian oscillators, which are the well they're 0:03:20.919 --> 0:03:24.320 the fluctuators in our circadian rhythm, which is what makes 0:03:24.360 --> 0:03:26.480 us fall asleep at night, wake up in the morning, 0:03:27.320 --> 0:03:30.360 get hungry at certain times. Neural activity, right, the neural 0:03:30.400 --> 0:03:34.600 activity and the hormones um our reactions to things like 0:03:34.680 --> 0:03:38.320 changes in temperature that are on a daily basis. Um 0:03:38.400 --> 0:03:43.880 things like um the changes in natural light. Right, So 0:03:44.080 --> 0:03:47.400 our our reactions to these are circadian oscillators. And if 0:03:47.440 --> 0:03:50.160 you put them all together, like sleeping at night and 0:03:50.160 --> 0:03:53.520 and um waking up in the morning, that's our circadian rhythm. 0:03:53.680 --> 0:03:58.360 But the circadian clocks actually exist on about a twenty 0:03:58.360 --> 0:04:01.880 four hour period since then. So but like you said, 0:04:01.960 --> 0:04:04.280 days on the calendar and all that, that's that is 0:04:04.320 --> 0:04:06.840 a human construct. Yeah, So what we're trying to get 0:04:06.880 --> 0:04:09.600 to the bottom of is whether or not dogs can 0:04:09.680 --> 0:04:14.440 perceive this not necessarily the human construct of time, but 0:04:14.560 --> 0:04:17.920 of time in and of itself, which is essentially a 0:04:18.200 --> 0:04:21.440 past present in future exactly. And I know that one 0:04:21.480 --> 0:04:23.720 thing that we will talk about, and maybe we'll talk 0:04:23.720 --> 0:04:26.839 about right now is you have three dogs? Do you 0:04:26.880 --> 0:04:29.960 have any dogs? I have two dogs? What shut up? 0:04:30.600 --> 0:04:33.080 I have two dogs, and I'm actually fostering two feral 0:04:33.120 --> 0:04:34.960 puppy rescues. What you know, So right now, if you 0:04:35.040 --> 0:04:36.479 want to get rid of those two dogs, because we 0:04:36.480 --> 0:04:38.239 could get rid of them like that if we plug 0:04:38.320 --> 0:04:40.600 this on this UM, on this podcast, we're kind of 0:04:40.600 --> 0:04:42.599 picky about who we give them to. Okay, well, how 0:04:42.640 --> 0:04:44.719 about this if you're not a creep and you love 0:04:44.760 --> 0:04:48.360 dogs and you live in the East Lake area, yeah, Atlanta, 0:04:48.360 --> 0:04:50.080 to send us an email if you want one of 0:04:50.160 --> 0:04:53.200 Chuck's puppies. Very cute. Yeah, So anyway, if your dogs 0:04:53.279 --> 0:04:56.839 or anything like my dogs, they and actually my cats too, 0:04:57.160 --> 0:05:00.400 they know when the food bell is going to ring. Sure, 0:05:00.600 --> 0:05:02.880 actually they start. Emily calls it food abuse. They start 0:05:02.960 --> 0:05:05.839 the food abuse typically about an hour and a half 0:05:05.920 --> 0:05:10.040 before they typically get fed every afternoon and in the morning. 0:05:10.080 --> 0:05:11.800 We feed them pretty much straight away in the morning, 0:05:11.800 --> 0:05:13.760 so they know. They know then. But my dog Lucy 0:05:13.839 --> 0:05:17.360 dude comes in the room and looks at you with 0:05:17.400 --> 0:05:19.560 her head cocked, stamps on the floor with her feet 0:05:19.600 --> 0:05:23.400 and goes m And I'm waiting her for her literally 0:05:23.440 --> 0:05:27.680 to one day say feed me one day. I told 0:05:27.760 --> 0:05:29.520 Emily if she did that one day, I would be 0:05:29.520 --> 0:05:33.159 surprised for about a second. So, chuck, here is where 0:05:33.160 --> 0:05:36.599 we reached the bone of contention. Sorry for that pun. 0:05:36.880 --> 0:05:38.880 I'm not Jonathan's strickling your dog to do the same 0:05:38.920 --> 0:05:41.600 thing though soon right. Well, no, my my dogs are 0:05:41.600 --> 0:05:44.640 fed constantly. They always have food. They for some reason 0:05:44.760 --> 0:05:46.719 I'd lucked out, and they just eat it, eat whenever 0:05:46.760 --> 0:05:49.720 they want, whenever. I can't imagine that. It's pretty cool 0:05:49.880 --> 0:05:51.960 dogs eat their food like it's the first time they've 0:05:52.000 --> 0:05:55.200 ever been fed before. My dogs, they're pretty laid back 0:05:55.200 --> 0:05:59.159 when it comes to stuff like that. Are they fat? No? Really, no, 0:05:59.360 --> 0:06:03.880 they're they're healthier than I am. Well, they're healthier than 0:06:03.920 --> 0:06:05.840 a lot of people I know. No, they're very They 0:06:05.920 --> 0:06:09.200 regulate their food and take on their own It's weird, 0:06:09.839 --> 0:06:12.560 but but I know what you're talking about. So the 0:06:12.680 --> 0:06:18.960 question is this, do your dogs no, based on past 0:06:19.000 --> 0:06:23.159 experience that food is coming at a certain time of day, 0:06:23.680 --> 0:06:28.160 not necessarily like five thirty pm, but say as far 0:06:28.200 --> 0:06:31.960 as the dog's concerned, when sun is low and sky 0:06:32.000 --> 0:06:39.680 over there, they're They're like Italians playing Native Americans. What 0:06:39.720 --> 0:06:43.599 do you think, I'm so um or? Is it a 0:06:43.600 --> 0:06:47.480 circadian oscillator? Well, that's the circadian oscillator. It could be, yeah, 0:06:47.560 --> 0:06:51.080 it could be. What what that is is you're they're 0:06:51.200 --> 0:06:54.719 using their memories of past experiences to predict the future, 0:06:55.080 --> 0:06:58.760 which is episodic memory, which is our construction of time. 0:06:59.200 --> 0:07:04.920 Or is this semantic memory, which is totally different but related. 0:07:05.720 --> 0:07:06.920 Do you want me to go into this because this 0:07:07.000 --> 0:07:11.560 is outside research, I have no choice. Then semantic memory 0:07:11.600 --> 0:07:14.760 is all right, Chuck. Let's say that you have brain 0:07:14.840 --> 0:07:18.280 damage to your frontal lobe, which is where your episodic 0:07:18.360 --> 0:07:22.400 memory is uh is located. That's the region that controls 0:07:22.440 --> 0:07:27.560 episodic memory, which is learning from experience. Right. Um, you 0:07:27.600 --> 0:07:33.080 could conceivably learn how to play chess right, right, but 0:07:34.160 --> 0:07:37.840 you won't remember where you learn how to play chess. Right. 0:07:37.920 --> 0:07:40.840 Much like, uh, they say a baby learned how to 0:07:40.920 --> 0:07:43.680 walk and talk, but they don't remember that day you 0:07:43.760 --> 0:07:45.680 taught me how to walk, right. They don't have to 0:07:45.760 --> 0:07:48.720 relearn crawling or walking or talk on a day to 0:07:48.800 --> 0:07:52.320 day basis, right, because they learned it. And that's semantic memory. 0:07:52.320 --> 0:07:55.720 That's like facts and rules and and and possibly motor 0:07:55.920 --> 0:07:58.680 movements or whatever. Or you know, if I run into 0:07:58.720 --> 0:08:01.360 this wall, it's going to hurt my face because I'm crawling, 0:08:02.120 --> 0:08:05.440 But they don't remember, you know, somebody teaching them like, 0:08:05.680 --> 0:08:08.840 come crawl to me that kind of thing, right, So yeah, 0:08:08.880 --> 0:08:14.400 that's semantic memory. Episodic memory would be like, um, what 0:08:14.520 --> 0:08:17.640 did you have for breakfast this morning? Had a fruit smoothie? 0:08:18.120 --> 0:08:20.480 You had a fruit smoothie? Remember what the light looked like? 0:08:20.520 --> 0:08:24.840 I remember what what smelled like. That is precisely episodic memory. 0:08:24.920 --> 0:08:26.720 And uh, I should probably give a shout out at 0:08:26.760 --> 0:08:29.040 t RS and Tall, who I'm like just blatantly ripping 0:08:29.080 --> 0:08:33.400 off right now. Um. The the chess example was one 0:08:33.400 --> 0:08:37.840 of Zental's uh examples of semantic memory, and what you've 0:08:37.880 --> 0:08:42.280 just said, um is almost word for word, uh, an 0:08:42.280 --> 0:08:46.199 example of episodic memory. You said, you know you remember 0:08:46.240 --> 0:08:50.360 these other details, whereas had you said, um, I had 0:08:50.640 --> 0:08:53.280 I had a smoothie this morning, I must have because 0:08:53.320 --> 0:08:57.120 I had a smoothie, Right, that would be well, not 0:08:57.160 --> 0:08:59.600 the burping part, but if you always had it, then 0:08:59.640 --> 0:09:02.480 that'd be were like semantic memories. So we reached the 0:09:02.600 --> 0:09:08.680 question do dogs perceived time or are these reactions that 0:09:08.760 --> 0:09:13.000 appear like they're there keeping track of time some way, 0:09:13.040 --> 0:09:17.000 maybe through a circadian oscillator based on semantic memories. And 0:09:17.000 --> 0:09:20.079 there's been a lot of studies that, not necessarily on dogs, 0:09:20.080 --> 0:09:23.160 but on other animals. Right, Yeah, what's uh, what's this 0:09:23.200 --> 0:09:27.760 crackpot's name? Roberts? No, what's this guy's name? Dr Roberts. Yeah, 0:09:27.800 --> 0:09:30.200 I have to say I'm gonna take issue with Dr Roberts. 0:09:30.520 --> 0:09:35.600 William Roberts. He's an animal cognition researcher. Right off the bat, 0:09:35.640 --> 0:09:39.400 you're taking issue with that, it's that. Yeah, he did 0:09:39.400 --> 0:09:42.959 some studies on pigeons and primates, to name a couple 0:09:43.400 --> 0:09:46.120 and long term in short term memory as far as 0:09:46.400 --> 0:09:49.160 remembering a sequence that they would I guess the pigeons 0:09:49.280 --> 0:09:51.520 would peck it out and the primates would tap it 0:09:51.520 --> 0:09:54.920 out and uh to get a reward. And they found 0:09:54.920 --> 0:09:57.360 that they have pretty good short term memory for this 0:09:57.440 --> 0:10:01.000 kind of thing, right, which is what that's working memory, right, yes, 0:10:01.440 --> 0:10:03.720 but long term as reference memory, Yeah, but as far 0:10:03.720 --> 0:10:06.080 as the reference goes, they couldn't remember it that well 0:10:06.120 --> 0:10:10.400 if there was if there was a big break in between. Um. 0:10:10.720 --> 0:10:14.400 Roberts actually wrote a very famous paper as far as 0:10:14.640 --> 0:10:19.320 animal cognition goes, where he basically said that he concluded 0:10:19.400 --> 0:10:21.880 animals are stuck in time. And I just made air 0:10:21.960 --> 0:10:25.360 quotes for those of you out there listening in podcast land. Um, 0:10:25.520 --> 0:10:28.000 and by stuck in timing means that they are they 0:10:28.040 --> 0:10:31.480 live exclusively in the present that they don't have the 0:10:31.559 --> 0:10:37.240 capacity for forming uh, long term episodic memory. Episodic is 0:10:37.240 --> 0:10:39.520 the key word. It is very much. Because I know 0:10:39.559 --> 0:10:41.440 at home you're saying, no, I taught my dog to 0:10:41.480 --> 0:10:44.679 sit when she was one. That's not the same thing. 0:10:44.720 --> 0:10:46.280 That's what we're talking about with the baby and learning 0:10:46.280 --> 0:10:51.120 how to walk. Um. But that's that's not. There's a 0:10:51.120 --> 0:10:54.520 lot of examples out there in nature that would kind 0:10:54.600 --> 0:11:00.000 of um the lie Dr roberts idea that the animals 0:11:00.000 --> 0:11:02.040 their dogs are stuck in time. Well, a good one 0:11:02.160 --> 0:11:07.880 is squirrels foraging food store for the winner and doing 0:11:07.880 --> 0:11:11.480 it year after year after year. Um. I believe Roberts 0:11:12.120 --> 0:11:16.079 actually addressed that and says, but they continue hoarding even 0:11:16.120 --> 0:11:20.960 when their stores inexplicably disappear, which I assume some researchers 0:11:20.960 --> 0:11:24.480 went and stole squirrels nuts and then uh studied them 0:11:24.480 --> 0:11:26.480 to see what they would do. I don't understand that 0:11:26.520 --> 0:11:28.280 at all. I don't either. Seems like they would that 0:11:28.320 --> 0:11:31.240 would make them want to hoard. Yeah, so I kind 0:11:31.280 --> 0:11:33.600 of have an issue with that one a little bit, 0:11:33.600 --> 0:11:36.560 but it's possible. I'm not entirely seeing that point all 0:11:36.559 --> 0:11:38.440 the way. I don't see the point. I'm not quite 0:11:38.440 --> 0:11:41.840 sure what what he meant there. But um, there's also 0:11:41.920 --> 0:11:44.800 one about the bananas, right, Chuck. There's there were some 0:11:44.840 --> 0:11:48.199 primates that were given choices between more or less bananas, 0:11:48.679 --> 0:11:52.360 and predictably, at first, if you offered an ape one 0:11:52.400 --> 0:11:54.760 banana or two bananas, they're gonna take the two bananas. 0:11:55.200 --> 0:11:57.760 But they found that when they started increasing the number 0:11:57.760 --> 0:12:01.640 of bananas, like ten compare to twenty, they would just 0:12:01.679 --> 0:12:04.000 go for the tin bananas, they wouldn't he and he 0:12:04.080 --> 0:12:08.400 thought this meant they can't, Uh, they have no concept 0:12:08.440 --> 0:12:10.679 of the future, Like maybe I should take these bananas 0:12:10.800 --> 0:12:13.800 because I might be hungry tomorrow right now. That's um 0:12:13.920 --> 0:12:18.560 that I think Roberts fails to take into account social structure. Right. Uh. 0:12:18.679 --> 0:12:21.760 We we know that we could use tim bananas for tomorrow, 0:12:22.080 --> 0:12:26.000 but we also have things like um preservation techniques or 0:12:26.040 --> 0:12:28.640 refrigeration available. That's what I thought. And if you go 0:12:28.720 --> 0:12:32.280 back in time just a few thousand years ago, UM 0:12:32.320 --> 0:12:35.840 to hunter gatherer societies or even hunter gatherer societies that 0:12:35.880 --> 0:12:38.559 are around now, they don't store food at all. They 0:12:38.600 --> 0:12:41.600 forage for what they need right then, and that's what 0:12:41.640 --> 0:12:44.760 they eat. I would imagine that that would actually explain 0:12:44.800 --> 0:12:48.720 a lot of the primate decisions. There's no real reason 0:12:48.760 --> 0:12:53.160 to their society isn't set up on this idea that 0:12:53.360 --> 0:12:55.679 I need more and more to protect myself in the 0:12:55.679 --> 0:12:59.040 future exactly. I don't know that that necessarily means that 0:12:59.080 --> 0:13:01.800 they don't have any concept of the future. I think 0:13:01.840 --> 0:13:04.600 that there's all these other explanations out there, right, and 0:13:04.640 --> 0:13:06.640 they made like one I was. When I read that, 0:13:06.679 --> 0:13:09.360 the first thing I thought was, maybe they're not they've 0:13:09.400 --> 0:13:11.560 never taken more than tin bananas in their life because 0:13:11.559 --> 0:13:14.120 they've never needed to, so it doesn't even dawn on 0:13:14.160 --> 0:13:16.400 them that that should be something they would do exactly. 0:13:16.559 --> 0:13:18.400 I guess what we're saying, both of us around the 0:13:18.440 --> 0:13:21.560 same page here. There are other explanations, and I think 0:13:21.600 --> 0:13:24.120 one of the things I took from this article was that, uh, 0:13:24.600 --> 0:13:27.680 Roberts found it conclusive that animals are stuck in time 0:13:27.800 --> 0:13:31.360 by cherry picking some uh some studies here, and we 0:13:31.360 --> 0:13:33.320 we kind of disagree with them. There's a lot of 0:13:33.360 --> 0:13:35.480 other factors. I know that my dog Lucy is stuck 0:13:35.480 --> 0:13:39.160 in time at five thirty pm every day because she's 0:13:39.200 --> 0:13:43.480 always asking for the food. So I guess another problem. 0:13:43.480 --> 0:13:46.160 It's entirely possible check that we're Our brains just aren't 0:13:46.160 --> 0:13:51.000 big enough to uh they're not as big as Robert's brain. Maybe, Um, 0:13:51.679 --> 0:13:54.160 did you ever hear that like goldfish have an eight 0:13:54.200 --> 0:13:57.800 second memory span. I've never heard that, so I have 0:13:58.200 --> 0:13:59.920 a right you have a goldfish and you have a 0:14:00.000 --> 0:14:04.040 old fish here. Yeah, Molly, she's very cute his name, Molly. 0:14:04.040 --> 0:14:08.560 I didn't know that interesting. UM, But having an episodic 0:14:08.640 --> 0:14:13.240 memory makes it almost impossible to think about UM not 0:14:13.360 --> 0:14:16.040 having one. So like, if a goldfish does have a 0:14:16.080 --> 0:14:18.480 memory of eight seconds, does that mean that every eight 0:14:18.480 --> 0:14:21.120 seconds all of its memories are purged, like getting rid 0:14:21.120 --> 0:14:25.400 of the browser history in your computer? Um? Or as 0:14:25.480 --> 0:14:29.080 new experiences come into the present, are older ones pushed 0:14:29.120 --> 0:14:32.520 out after they hit this eight second maturity level? And 0:14:32.520 --> 0:14:34.600 how how do they test that on a goldfish? Anyway? 0:14:34.920 --> 0:14:40.880 Perfect chuck, perfect segue. Here's the biggest problem. Robert's position 0:14:41.200 --> 0:14:45.680 is almost inherently species ist. You're familiar with this term, Ye, 0:14:46.000 --> 0:14:48.400 this is a legitimate term. I'm not making this up. Animals. 0:14:49.640 --> 0:14:53.160 Animals don't have souls. It's impossible for an like a 0:14:53.200 --> 0:14:57.040 dog to be happy because that's the secondary emotions aren't 0:14:57.040 --> 0:15:00.680 self aware enough. There's a competing explo nation for all 0:15:00.800 --> 0:15:06.000 this UM. Species is tend to rely very strictly or 0:15:06.080 --> 0:15:09.840 remain very strictly within the structure UM provided by the 0:15:09.880 --> 0:15:12.800 scientific method and all his studies here, he probably came 0:15:12.800 --> 0:15:15.560 out from that frame of mind. Sure right, UM, But 0:15:15.640 --> 0:15:17.680 there's another way of looking at it, and that is 0:15:17.720 --> 0:15:20.520 that humans simply haven't come up with tests that are 0:15:20.520 --> 0:15:25.840 clever enough to get definitive proof that an animal can 0:15:25.960 --> 0:15:29.800 experience happiness, or can or is aware of time, the future, 0:15:29.840 --> 0:15:32.120 of the past, that kind of thing. You can take 0:15:32.160 --> 0:15:35.400 that way too far, like after you know, test after 0:15:35.440 --> 0:15:38.720 test after test that proves the opposite, you could still 0:15:38.760 --> 0:15:41.200 conceivably say, well, there's a test out there that that 0:15:41.240 --> 0:15:44.800 we haven't come up with yet that proves that they can. Um. 0:15:44.880 --> 0:15:47.080 But I think that the testing that has been done 0:15:47.160 --> 0:15:51.200 is very much below that threshold so far. I don't 0:15:51.200 --> 0:15:55.640 think we have a clue, um what what animals are 0:15:55.680 --> 0:15:57.960 capable of as far as consciousness, because because we have 0:15:58.040 --> 0:16:00.480 such a loose grasp on our own consciousness, sure, and 0:16:00.520 --> 0:16:03.520 we can't uh certainly can't delve into an animal's brain 0:16:03.560 --> 0:16:05.720 and see what they think and they can't tell us anything. 0:16:05.920 --> 0:16:08.400 I guarantee you one thing. I bet you. Dr Roberts 0:16:08.520 --> 0:16:13.400 is not a dog owner, agreed, Agreed, because you have dogs, dude, 0:16:13.480 --> 0:16:15.840 And I guarantee you we're going to get tons of 0:16:15.880 --> 0:16:19.120 mail from people saying, are you kidding? My dog displays 0:16:19.160 --> 0:16:22.120 emotion every day? And you know, I guess Caesar that 0:16:22.240 --> 0:16:24.800 the dog whisperer might say, you know, that's you're putting 0:16:24.800 --> 0:16:27.680 your human construct on the dogs. From my mind, yeah, 0:16:28.000 --> 0:16:31.720 anthrow anthropomorphizing. Yeah, I don't know, man, my dog is 0:16:32.200 --> 0:16:36.560 that they're both pretty emotional. Well yeah, anthropomorphizing is the 0:16:36.640 --> 0:16:40.560 go to ammunition for species ists, and I don't want, 0:16:40.560 --> 0:16:43.080 I don't mean to say that anybody who's saying like, no, 0:16:43.320 --> 0:16:46.480 animals can't be happy because it's secondary emotion and they 0:16:46.560 --> 0:16:48.880 lack that sense of self awareness that is required to 0:16:48.920 --> 0:16:53.040 experience this, uh, secondary emotion is a species ist, But 0:16:53.520 --> 0:16:55.640 the too often go hand in hand. And it's really 0:16:55.680 --> 0:16:59.200 interesting that there's a line drawn right now between people 0:16:59.320 --> 0:17:03.200 who think animals don't have a soul and people who 0:17:03.800 --> 0:17:07.160 think animals can be happy and all the implications that 0:17:07.359 --> 0:17:09.880 come with that. Jerry, I bet you think your dog 0:17:10.000 --> 0:17:12.919 is a soul? Right, Jerry saying yeah, just gave the 0:17:12.920 --> 0:17:16.440 sweetest face and nodded yes, yes, So, um, I feel 0:17:16.480 --> 0:17:19.000 like chuck and I just opened a big old canned worms. 0:17:19.080 --> 0:17:21.960 So we'll see how this plays out in the emails. Right, 0:17:22.680 --> 0:17:25.000 If you want to read more about dogs perceiving, time 0:17:25.520 --> 0:17:29.240 to answer the question. According to Roberts, no, dogs don't 0:17:29.240 --> 0:17:32.480 perceive time times a human construct consisting of a past 0:17:32.520 --> 0:17:35.240 president in future and dogs pretty much living the present. 0:17:35.520 --> 0:17:38.440 Chuck and I don't necessarily agree with that one. Uh. 0:17:38.480 --> 0:17:41.560 You can go on in type in dogs perceived time 0:17:41.920 --> 0:17:45.080 in the handy search bar at how stuff works dot com. 0:17:45.400 --> 0:17:47.320 Since I just said that, it means it's time for 0:17:47.359 --> 0:17:54.679 a whole mess of listener mail. You're right, Josh, this 0:17:54.760 --> 0:17:57.920 is uh We're just gonna call this muppet mail, and 0:17:57.960 --> 0:18:00.320 we are gonna go on a little longer than usual 0:18:00.359 --> 0:18:03.600 with our mail because the Muppet podcast, I think we 0:18:03.640 --> 0:18:07.760 will all agree, um was sort of a ce change episode. 0:18:08.119 --> 0:18:10.359 And plus we just want to see how how long 0:18:10.480 --> 0:18:12.960 this background music actually goes for it, I know, I 0:18:12.960 --> 0:18:15.959 mean we we literally got better response from the Muppet 0:18:16.000 --> 0:18:19.280 Show episode than uh, anything we've ever done, I would say, 0:18:19.440 --> 0:18:22.960 wouldn't you. Yeah, the Henson company twittered about it. Yeah, 0:18:23.320 --> 0:18:26.919 Heather Henson, we should say. Our colleague and friend, Jonathan 0:18:26.960 --> 0:18:32.080 Strickland of tech Stuff came his uh sister sister friends 0:18:32.080 --> 0:18:35.639 who with Heather Henson, and it went viral thanks to him. Yeah, 0:18:35.720 --> 0:18:39.159 that's awesome. So we got great response. It's clear that 0:18:39.200 --> 0:18:41.960 everyone loves the Muppets and uh so I wanted to 0:18:42.000 --> 0:18:43.480 go just through a few of these because I didn't 0:18:43.480 --> 0:18:46.879 want to just do one um quickly before we start, 0:18:47.080 --> 0:18:49.840 and we never do this, but a guy sent me 0:18:49.880 --> 0:18:52.080 an email and I kind of touched a chord with me. 0:18:52.920 --> 0:18:56.119 So I want to quickly give a shout out for 0:18:56.119 --> 0:19:00.520 for Joe to Beth in Ellwood, Indiana and just wants 0:19:00.520 --> 0:19:02.640 to say that he thinks that you are a pretty 0:19:02.680 --> 0:19:06.840 cool chick. Beth, Chuck, are you playing matchmaker? Is that 0:19:06.880 --> 0:19:08.720 why you're wearing nothing but a diaper and you have 0:19:08.840 --> 0:19:12.160 those wings? And not saying but Beth and Elwood, Joe, 0:19:12.320 --> 0:19:14.520 Joe thinks your cool chicken. So the week because she 0:19:14.560 --> 0:19:17.920 actually sent us a alien han syndrome video which rocked cool. 0:19:18.080 --> 0:19:21.119 That's good, I'll show it to you quick. A couple 0:19:21.119 --> 0:19:24.040 of things that we didn't mention in corrections. First of all, Um, 0:19:24.080 --> 0:19:28.360 I mistakenly refer to the Children's Television Workshop as the 0:19:28.480 --> 0:19:31.520 Children's Television Network, so I goove that one you're thinking 0:19:31.520 --> 0:19:36.000 of home shopping that kids. We did not mention every 0:19:36.080 --> 0:19:39.479 Muppet movie. We did not mention every Muppet venture because 0:19:39.720 --> 0:19:42.320 no want I want to halicitate on this. We did 0:19:42.320 --> 0:19:45.240 that on purpose. First of all, we mentioned the three 0:19:45.320 --> 0:19:49.200 that were in theatrical Elite release directed by Jim Henson. Yes, 0:19:49.440 --> 0:19:53.160 and by first of all, I mean that's it right right. 0:19:53.800 --> 0:19:55.280 So a lot of people said, how could you not 0:19:55.320 --> 0:19:58.360 mention Muppets Christmas Carol? And we wanted to mention everything, 0:19:58.400 --> 0:20:01.880 but we were just been sitting here reading things all 0:20:01.960 --> 0:20:05.520 day long about the Dark Crystal and other Muppet ventures. 0:20:05.560 --> 0:20:08.000 So we chose to only do the Hinson ones. Would 0:20:08.160 --> 0:20:11.800 Crystal creeps out and that was Hinton too, because I 0:20:11.800 --> 0:20:13.200 know people are gonna write and say that was Hinson, 0:20:13.240 --> 0:20:16.040 but get over. Uh. We had a gun in. Peter 0:20:16.119 --> 0:20:20.200 wrote in and he told us about the Muppet Whatnot Workshop. Yeah, 0:20:20.240 --> 0:20:25.959 and um and uh, and you can go to New 0:20:26.000 --> 0:20:27.680 York City and you could do it online. But I 0:20:27.800 --> 0:20:30.200 looked and it's down right now. But it's just around 0:20:30.240 --> 0:20:32.560 Christmas time or the holidays. No, they got bought out 0:20:32.600 --> 0:20:34.679 by Toys r Us. I think, so that's down right now. 0:20:34.720 --> 0:20:36.239 But you can still go to New York. You can 0:20:36.240 --> 0:20:38.080 go to the Muppet Workshop and you can build your 0:20:38.080 --> 0:20:42.400 own whatnot at Goldman says it costs about a hundred bucks. 0:20:42.520 --> 0:20:44.240 And he sent me a picture of he and his 0:20:44.520 --> 0:20:47.040 little cute daughter with her Muppet whatnot. So you want 0:20:47.040 --> 0:20:50.159 to thank Peter for that? And actually I'm going on 0:20:50.240 --> 0:20:53.240 and on, but Peter had one of the big food 0:20:53.280 --> 0:20:55.639 and chow mustaches like me, Yeah, I'll tell you about this, 0:20:56.320 --> 0:20:59.119 And I said, uh, very cool, Peter, thanks for sending this. 0:20:59.160 --> 0:21:00.719 I said, it looks like you picked up a mustache 0:21:00.720 --> 0:21:03.159 while you were there. And he wrote back and said, no, 0:21:03.320 --> 0:21:06.840 I got that at the Sam Elliott. Uh Sam Elliott 0:21:06.880 --> 0:21:12.879 Supply Center down the street or something like that, Peter. Um, 0:21:12.920 --> 0:21:15.280 So that is all for the corrections. Now we have 0:21:15.320 --> 0:21:18.560 a few emails. Um, Josh and Chuck had just listen 0:21:18.640 --> 0:21:20.679 to how Muppets worked. I was excited to hear you 0:21:20.680 --> 0:21:22.879 talk about it because you mentioned the costume designer from 0:21:22.880 --> 0:21:25.680 Miss Piggie, who happens to be my aunt Callista. Oh 0:21:26.920 --> 0:21:29.080 she uh. If you look up the Muppet movie you 0:21:29.119 --> 0:21:31.320 can see her in the costume and war Dube department 0:21:31.359 --> 0:21:34.600 on IMDb. She worked closely with Henson and I've actually 0:21:34.600 --> 0:21:37.080 seen a picture of her with Jim Henson setting up 0:21:37.080 --> 0:21:41.400 some Muppets and Emmett Hotter's jug band Christmas. She left 0:21:41.400 --> 0:21:43.240 the Muppets, I think when Jim Henson died, but we 0:21:43.280 --> 0:21:46.639 still see her once a year. That's from Sam and 0:21:46.720 --> 0:21:50.320 Josh is in fact eating a Reese's cup. Uh onto 0:21:50.359 --> 0:21:53.080 the next one. Hi, guys, I love your recent podcast. 0:21:53.640 --> 0:21:55.520 I was listening and thought I would mention that Jim 0:21:55.560 --> 0:21:59.199 Henson studied mumpetology at University of Maryland. I know this 0:21:59.240 --> 0:22:02.080 because I went there, and there is a Jim Hinton 0:22:02.200 --> 0:22:06.919 studies program, and it is our claim to fame. Um, 0:22:06.960 --> 0:22:08.520 I didn't know he went to my school until I 0:22:08.560 --> 0:22:13.240 went there. And there's actually a little a bitch statue. 0:22:13.240 --> 0:22:15.600 It's a bench with Hinton sitting on it and Kermit 0:22:15.680 --> 0:22:17.159 sitting on the back of the bench and they're kind 0:22:17.160 --> 0:22:20.560 of holding hands. That is beyond It is very cute. 0:22:20.600 --> 0:22:22.760 So and and she also says that, um, this is 0:22:22.800 --> 0:22:26.120 from Lesia that they have the rights to. It ain't 0:22:26.160 --> 0:22:29.560 easy being Green and Rainbow Connection. So their marching band 0:22:29.600 --> 0:22:33.640 actually plays that the University of Maryland. Yeah, go turps, 0:22:35.160 --> 0:22:40.679