1 00:00:00,800 --> 00:00:04,120 Speaker 1: Hi. This is Laura Vanderkam. I'm a mother of four, 2 00:00:04,480 --> 00:00:08,319 Speaker 1: an author, journalist, and speaker. And this is Sarah Hart Hunger. 3 00:00:08,680 --> 00:00:11,680 Speaker 1: I'm a mother of three, practicing physician and blogger. On 4 00:00:11,720 --> 00:00:14,480 Speaker 1: the side, we are two working parents who love our 5 00:00:14,520 --> 00:00:17,760 Speaker 1: careers and our families. Welcome to best of both worlds. 6 00:00:18,160 --> 00:00:21,400 Speaker 1: Here we talk about how real women manage work, family, 7 00:00:21,600 --> 00:00:25,240 Speaker 1: and time for fun, from figuring out childcare to mapping 8 00:00:25,239 --> 00:00:28,120 Speaker 1: out long term career goals. We want you to get 9 00:00:28,120 --> 00:00:32,560 Speaker 1: the most out of life. Welcome to best of both worlds. 10 00:00:32,680 --> 00:00:35,120 Speaker 1: This is Laura. This is episode one hundred and forty two. 11 00:00:35,440 --> 00:00:38,920 Speaker 1: We'll be interviewing or I'll be interviewing Jen Hatmaker during 12 00:00:38,920 --> 00:00:42,000 Speaker 1: this episode. Jen is the author of several books, most 13 00:00:42,040 --> 00:00:45,159 Speaker 1: recently Fierce Free and Full of Fire, which is a 14 00:00:45,159 --> 00:00:47,760 Speaker 1: bit of a mouthful, but it's a fun read. She 15 00:00:47,880 --> 00:00:50,080 Speaker 1: talks about some heady issues in there, in terms of 16 00:00:50,120 --> 00:00:53,239 Speaker 1: being your best self, sort of claiming your ambition of 17 00:00:53,280 --> 00:00:56,760 Speaker 1: whatever size, that is, getting over various barriers that are 18 00:00:56,760 --> 00:00:59,480 Speaker 1: holding us back. But she does it in such a 19 00:00:59,520 --> 00:01:02,080 Speaker 1: fund style, so I'm sure a lot of our listeners 20 00:01:02,080 --> 00:01:03,760 Speaker 1: are going to love reading that. And she's just a 21 00:01:03,760 --> 00:01:07,720 Speaker 1: fascinating person. People who are familiar with her life, as 22 00:01:07,760 --> 00:01:09,480 Speaker 1: I talk about in the interview, not many people who 23 00:01:09,520 --> 00:01:12,240 Speaker 1: have had careers both as a pastor and as an 24 00:01:12,400 --> 00:01:17,160 Speaker 1: HGTV television personality. So we go into all that, and 25 00:01:17,560 --> 00:01:21,400 Speaker 1: I hope you'll enjoy listening to that. Speaking of fun diversions, Sarah, 26 00:01:21,800 --> 00:01:25,480 Speaker 1: what have you been doing lately to divert your attention 27 00:01:25,680 --> 00:01:29,760 Speaker 1: during this quarantine? Fun? Yeah, I feel like, well, I 28 00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:32,240 Speaker 1: was just listening to one of my other favorite podcasts. 29 00:01:32,319 --> 00:01:35,160 Speaker 1: So podcasts have been a big theme for me because 30 00:01:35,200 --> 00:01:38,840 Speaker 1: I've been taking walks outside and I think, like many others, 31 00:01:38,880 --> 00:01:42,920 Speaker 1: I'm finding that lighter material is definitely hitting home right 32 00:01:42,920 --> 00:01:45,280 Speaker 1: now for the most part. Like I actually did read 33 00:01:45,280 --> 00:01:49,200 Speaker 1: a pretty heavy book recently. My gosh, now I'm blinking 34 00:01:49,200 --> 00:01:51,600 Speaker 1: on what I just read. Oh yeah, The Topeka School 35 00:01:51,880 --> 00:01:54,000 Speaker 1: by Ben Lerner. It took me a really long time 36 00:01:54,000 --> 00:01:55,880 Speaker 1: to get into it, but then it did have that 37 00:01:55,920 --> 00:01:58,280 Speaker 1: sort of immersive feel where you're like in this other world, 38 00:01:58,280 --> 00:02:00,880 Speaker 1: even though it was a very dark and gloomy world, 39 00:02:01,520 --> 00:02:04,440 Speaker 1: and I enjoyed it. But I think, my well, you 40 00:02:04,520 --> 00:02:07,560 Speaker 1: know what my next pick is, I've begun The Courtland Boys, 41 00:02:07,640 --> 00:02:10,880 Speaker 1: which is actually perfectly light. I'm sure there are also 42 00:02:11,000 --> 00:02:13,120 Speaker 1: darker themes that are going to be delved into, but 43 00:02:13,200 --> 00:02:16,360 Speaker 1: the style is very It's just readable, like it's just 44 00:02:16,360 --> 00:02:18,080 Speaker 1: one of those books, like I wanted to read it 45 00:02:18,080 --> 00:02:19,960 Speaker 1: between my conference calls and was like, oh damn, I 46 00:02:19,960 --> 00:02:21,680 Speaker 1: have to start my call. So, by the way, that's 47 00:02:21,720 --> 00:02:25,480 Speaker 1: Laura's books if anybody wants to And she did not 48 00:02:25,560 --> 00:02:27,760 Speaker 1: tell me to place this, but that is actually what 49 00:02:27,800 --> 00:02:31,240 Speaker 1: I'm reading, and I'm really enjoying it. And we are 50 00:02:31,560 --> 00:02:35,120 Speaker 1: watching some TVs. We just finished This is Us, which 51 00:02:35,639 --> 00:02:37,359 Speaker 1: I think the season ended a few weeks ago, but 52 00:02:37,440 --> 00:02:40,560 Speaker 1: we're like totally behind. You know, my husband's work schedule 53 00:02:40,639 --> 00:02:43,040 Speaker 1: has been a lot lighter than it normally is, so 54 00:02:43,080 --> 00:02:45,440 Speaker 1: it's kind of funny. We've been enjoying just having a 55 00:02:45,480 --> 00:02:48,480 Speaker 1: little bit more bendwidth to like watch shows at night 56 00:02:48,560 --> 00:02:52,360 Speaker 1: and talk and that's been nice. Have you watched anything 57 00:02:52,440 --> 00:02:55,520 Speaker 1: or read anything juicy? Not really. I mean I've read 58 00:02:55,560 --> 00:03:01,239 Speaker 1: a couple books, some about big sort of nonfiction themes. 59 00:03:01,240 --> 00:03:05,280 Speaker 1: So I read Elizabeth Colbert's The Sixth Extinction, which is 60 00:03:05,480 --> 00:03:11,000 Speaker 1: about extinctions through history, so not really about viruses, but 61 00:03:11,320 --> 00:03:17,880 Speaker 1: related sort of natural disasters. I read homodauis that Juvel Harari. 62 00:03:18,760 --> 00:03:21,600 Speaker 1: I forget his name exactly, but you know he wrote 63 00:03:21,600 --> 00:03:24,919 Speaker 1: the book Sapiens, So those, yeah, follow up about what 64 00:03:25,080 --> 00:03:29,920 Speaker 1: future humanity will be? Like what else? Those are not 65 00:03:30,000 --> 00:03:34,320 Speaker 1: light about A month ago now, I read Michelle Obama's 66 00:03:34,400 --> 00:03:37,560 Speaker 1: memoir Becoming, and you know, I was like the parts 67 00:03:37,560 --> 00:03:40,520 Speaker 1: of memoirs where people talk about their childhoods and young adulthoods, like, 68 00:03:40,760 --> 00:03:42,120 Speaker 1: you know, you could kind of know her story after 69 00:03:42,160 --> 00:03:44,840 Speaker 1: she became famous, so it's like that part whatever, But 70 00:03:45,440 --> 00:03:47,960 Speaker 1: it's more fun reading about her growing up in Chicago 71 00:03:48,080 --> 00:03:51,200 Speaker 1: and being a young person there. So I enjoyed that. 72 00:03:51,840 --> 00:03:54,040 Speaker 1: Does that have an audiobook that she narrates, because I 73 00:03:54,040 --> 00:03:55,680 Speaker 1: feel like that would be cool. That might be. I 74 00:03:55,880 --> 00:03:58,600 Speaker 1: don't know, i read it. I don't. I haven't been 75 00:03:58,600 --> 00:04:01,280 Speaker 1: doing all that well with audiobooks I have. I'm way 76 00:04:01,280 --> 00:04:03,720 Speaker 1: behind on all my podcasts just because I am not 77 00:04:04,080 --> 00:04:06,440 Speaker 1: doing any of the things that I would have been 78 00:04:06,440 --> 00:04:10,000 Speaker 1: doing that I matched with podcasts. So probably I should 79 00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:13,040 Speaker 1: listen to more of them, but I just it's not 80 00:04:13,240 --> 00:04:17,200 Speaker 1: part of what I'm doing anymore. I'm running outside instead 81 00:04:17,240 --> 00:04:19,880 Speaker 1: of on the treadmill, so I'm not listening to them. 82 00:04:19,880 --> 00:04:22,320 Speaker 1: On the treadmill. I'm not driving anywhere, so there's there's 83 00:04:22,360 --> 00:04:24,960 Speaker 1: that time is gone. You don't like to do podcasts 84 00:04:25,200 --> 00:04:27,599 Speaker 1: when you run outside? Now now I want to be 85 00:04:27,600 --> 00:04:31,679 Speaker 1: able to hear stuff. I don't know, people, cars, whatever, 86 00:04:31,760 --> 00:04:34,760 Speaker 1: I just don't can always do the one headfoon one. 87 00:04:34,880 --> 00:04:39,520 Speaker 1: I have to work on that because I definitely I'm 88 00:04:39,560 --> 00:04:42,520 Speaker 1: still alive and pretty much all my outdoor running has 89 00:04:42,520 --> 00:04:46,240 Speaker 1: always been the outdoor running has always been with something 90 00:04:46,279 --> 00:04:49,479 Speaker 1: in my ear. So even even going way back before, 91 00:04:49,520 --> 00:04:51,360 Speaker 1: it was like cool to do it. I mean that's why. 92 00:04:51,440 --> 00:04:53,719 Speaker 1: Like I listened to another Mother Runner when they were, 93 00:04:53,839 --> 00:04:56,040 Speaker 1: you know, the very one of the few podcasts around, 94 00:04:56,080 --> 00:04:58,440 Speaker 1: and I was like, wow, this pairs really well with 95 00:04:58,480 --> 00:05:01,120 Speaker 1: like running eighteen miles or whatever I was doing back then. Yeah, well, 96 00:05:01,120 --> 00:05:03,080 Speaker 1: maybe I'd feel better about running eighteen miles if I 97 00:05:03,120 --> 00:05:05,080 Speaker 1: was listening to podcasts. And maybe I have to get 98 00:05:05,120 --> 00:05:07,600 Speaker 1: on that. My husband and I boys have been watching 99 00:05:07,920 --> 00:05:13,800 Speaker 1: The Crown. Ooh, that's like kind of educational. Yeah, so 100 00:05:15,120 --> 00:05:18,360 Speaker 1: maybe they need to listen to Queen Elizabeth's speech or 101 00:05:18,400 --> 00:05:21,719 Speaker 1: something to get the modern take on it. But all right, 102 00:05:21,760 --> 00:05:24,840 Speaker 1: well those are I guess what we're diverting ourselves with 103 00:05:24,880 --> 00:05:28,559 Speaker 1: now and now we'll talk with Jen Hatmaker. Well, Sarah 104 00:05:28,600 --> 00:05:32,440 Speaker 1: and I are delighted to welcome Jen Hatmaker to the program. 105 00:05:32,560 --> 00:05:34,760 Speaker 1: So Jen, can you go ahead and introduce yourself to 106 00:05:34,800 --> 00:05:38,320 Speaker 1: our listeners. Yeah, and thank you for having me on today. 107 00:05:38,560 --> 00:05:42,080 Speaker 1: I'm so happy to talk to another person and I'm 108 00:05:42,120 --> 00:05:46,120 Speaker 1: not related to you. We're so great during COVID nineteen lockdown. 109 00:05:46,279 --> 00:05:49,440 Speaker 1: So we may write hopefully when we are not in lockdown, 110 00:05:49,440 --> 00:05:52,280 Speaker 1: when Jen's book comes out. But I'm recording ahead. Yes, 111 00:05:53,560 --> 00:05:57,239 Speaker 1: real people, Yes, absolutely, like, Oh, there's a person's face 112 00:05:57,240 --> 00:06:01,280 Speaker 1: on the screen. How nice. I live in Austin, Texas 113 00:06:01,480 --> 00:06:04,440 Speaker 1: with my big family. I've got my husband, Brandon. I've 114 00:06:04,440 --> 00:06:06,200 Speaker 1: been married for twenty six years. We have five kids, 115 00:06:06,279 --> 00:06:09,599 Speaker 1: so we have in two in college, two in high school, 116 00:06:09,600 --> 00:06:12,680 Speaker 1: and one in middle So it's just a circus up 117 00:06:12,680 --> 00:06:16,279 Speaker 1: in here every single day, of course, And you know 118 00:06:16,279 --> 00:06:18,040 Speaker 1: we're getting a lot of togetherness right now. I'll tell 119 00:06:18,040 --> 00:06:22,039 Speaker 1: you that togetherness is a double edged sword. Really, I 120 00:06:22,040 --> 00:06:26,479 Speaker 1: don't know howard of Yeah, and you've worn a lot 121 00:06:26,520 --> 00:06:29,159 Speaker 1: of professional hats over the years. I was looking through 122 00:06:29,160 --> 00:06:32,440 Speaker 1: the list of your various gigs. There's probably not a 123 00:06:32,520 --> 00:06:35,919 Speaker 1: huge overlap between people who have been both preachers and 124 00:06:36,279 --> 00:06:40,360 Speaker 1: h TV television personality, So maybe you can know, right, Yeah, 125 00:06:40,440 --> 00:06:44,560 Speaker 1: we'll talk a little bit about your your evolution. I'm 126 00:06:44,640 --> 00:06:47,640 Speaker 1: such an interesting category. Every time I release a new book, 127 00:06:47,760 --> 00:06:52,520 Speaker 1: my publishing team faces the same conundrum, which is, we 128 00:06:52,640 --> 00:06:55,480 Speaker 1: don't know where this book belongs in a bookstore. Like 129 00:06:56,000 --> 00:06:59,760 Speaker 1: I'm not a tidy I don't have tidy categories at all. 130 00:07:00,240 --> 00:07:05,760 Speaker 1: But yeah, I've I've been in ministry my husband as well. 131 00:07:05,800 --> 00:07:09,920 Speaker 1: We started a church here in Austin, and then weirdly 132 00:07:10,240 --> 00:07:14,440 Speaker 1: we had an eight episode series on HGTV. We renovated 133 00:07:14,480 --> 00:07:19,680 Speaker 1: a one hundred year old farmhouse. But primarily the overlap 134 00:07:19,920 --> 00:07:22,880 Speaker 1: is that I generally just I serve women, and I 135 00:07:22,920 --> 00:07:25,840 Speaker 1: serve them in a lot of capacities. So sometimes that 136 00:07:25,920 --> 00:07:29,320 Speaker 1: looks like books. Sometimes it looks like podcast. Sometimes it 137 00:07:29,480 --> 00:07:32,200 Speaker 1: just looks like entertainment because I mean, my gosh, we've 138 00:07:32,320 --> 00:07:35,000 Speaker 1: just got to be able to laugh. Sometimes it looks 139 00:07:35,080 --> 00:07:38,880 Speaker 1: like spiritual leadership. And I just decided a few years 140 00:07:38,880 --> 00:07:41,440 Speaker 1: ago that I didn't have to pick, that I didn't 141 00:07:41,520 --> 00:07:45,960 Speaker 1: have to pick between being funny and being sober minded, 142 00:07:46,040 --> 00:07:49,000 Speaker 1: that I didn't have to pick between being entertaining and 143 00:07:49,040 --> 00:07:52,240 Speaker 1: being instructive, and so I just do it all and 144 00:07:53,120 --> 00:07:55,920 Speaker 1: people just have figured it out at this point, like, oh, 145 00:07:56,320 --> 00:08:00,240 Speaker 1: we get a little whiplash with gin and that's just okay. Yeah, 146 00:08:00,280 --> 00:08:03,400 Speaker 1: and some interesting whiplash in terms of the communities you're 147 00:08:03,440 --> 00:08:05,800 Speaker 1: part of. And I think one of the things you 148 00:08:05,840 --> 00:08:08,080 Speaker 1: address in the beginning of your new book of Fierce, 149 00:08:08,120 --> 00:08:10,360 Speaker 1: Free and Full of Fire, which we're talking about today, 150 00:08:11,000 --> 00:08:14,240 Speaker 1: is that you are both deeply embedded in the evangelical 151 00:08:14,320 --> 00:08:18,960 Speaker 1: Christian community. You're also in the progressive activist community, and 152 00:08:19,920 --> 00:08:22,560 Speaker 1: anyone who follows politics knows that the overlap between these 153 00:08:22,560 --> 00:08:26,440 Speaker 1: two is somewhat limited as well, very very tiny. So 154 00:08:26,480 --> 00:08:28,680 Speaker 1: we're seeing each other, Jenna and I can see each other. 155 00:08:28,880 --> 00:08:33,800 Speaker 1: She's making a very small, small stick with her fingers. Yeah. 156 00:08:34,480 --> 00:08:36,400 Speaker 1: How does how does that feel? I mean, is it 157 00:08:36,520 --> 00:08:39,719 Speaker 1: sort of perpetually that you know, feeling a little bit 158 00:08:39,760 --> 00:08:44,760 Speaker 1: strange in both circles? Yeah? Yeah, you nailed it. And 159 00:08:44,840 --> 00:08:46,760 Speaker 1: I would say, you know, just to be fair to 160 00:08:46,840 --> 00:08:52,040 Speaker 1: identify probably correctly, I'm not really deeply embedded in the 161 00:08:52,160 --> 00:08:56,079 Speaker 1: evangelical world anymore. That was a world that that's kind 162 00:08:56,080 --> 00:08:59,360 Speaker 1: of where I built my career. But there is I've 163 00:08:59,360 --> 00:09:02,160 Speaker 1: sort of been on a divergent path in the last 164 00:09:02,559 --> 00:09:06,080 Speaker 1: I'm going to say ten years when I had I 165 00:09:06,160 --> 00:09:09,600 Speaker 1: was unable to reconcile the conflict and tension I felt 166 00:09:09,600 --> 00:09:13,079 Speaker 1: inside that circle. However, you know, if I'm not necessarily 167 00:09:13,160 --> 00:09:15,839 Speaker 1: connected to that branch of the tree, I still have 168 00:09:15,960 --> 00:09:20,240 Speaker 1: this like deeplease spiritual side that includes spiritual leadership and 169 00:09:20,280 --> 00:09:24,920 Speaker 1: pastoral leadership. And then to your point, also, I am 170 00:09:24,960 --> 00:09:28,559 Speaker 1: an activist. My husband and I run a foundation. We 171 00:09:29,120 --> 00:09:33,040 Speaker 1: globally fund initiatives all around the world with our community. 172 00:09:33,720 --> 00:09:38,680 Speaker 1: I'm an ally for the LGBTQ community, I'm an ally 173 00:09:38,760 --> 00:09:42,160 Speaker 1: for people of color, and I'm a supporter of Black 174 00:09:42,160 --> 00:09:44,760 Speaker 1: Lives Matter. And so I'm just kind of I run 175 00:09:44,800 --> 00:09:48,480 Speaker 1: the gamut here and I just had to decide. And 176 00:09:48,520 --> 00:09:51,040 Speaker 1: this is kind of the center point of Fearce, the 177 00:09:51,080 --> 00:09:53,840 Speaker 1: book we're talking about, which is just that if I 178 00:09:54,000 --> 00:09:57,920 Speaker 1: have to keep shape shifting to please the intended audience, 179 00:09:58,080 --> 00:10:00,480 Speaker 1: which for me changes a lot because I I run 180 00:10:00,520 --> 00:10:03,480 Speaker 1: in a lot of lanes, then I am going to 181 00:10:03,640 --> 00:10:08,040 Speaker 1: one hundred percent disintegrate. So instead of trying to keep 182 00:10:08,120 --> 00:10:11,120 Speaker 1: the peace in whatever room I'm in, I'm going to 183 00:10:11,240 --> 00:10:13,600 Speaker 1: just have to be myself. I'm going to have to 184 00:10:13,640 --> 00:10:17,320 Speaker 1: figure out deeply who I am, what I care about, 185 00:10:18,080 --> 00:10:21,880 Speaker 1: what matters to me, how I am created this sort 186 00:10:21,920 --> 00:10:24,480 Speaker 1: of thrive and lead and be that person no matter 187 00:10:24,480 --> 00:10:27,080 Speaker 1: where I'm at, and that to me has been the 188 00:10:27,080 --> 00:10:30,640 Speaker 1: path to freedom. Yeah, and so in her book, Jen 189 00:10:30,840 --> 00:10:34,000 Speaker 1: is sharing some of her journey on this, and also 190 00:10:34,320 --> 00:10:36,720 Speaker 1: you know, advice on why we should all try to 191 00:10:36,720 --> 00:10:39,600 Speaker 1: be our authentic selves and why the world needs our 192 00:10:39,679 --> 00:10:43,160 Speaker 1: authentic selves and you know, so this is this big idea. 193 00:10:43,200 --> 00:10:45,080 Speaker 1: And then one of the things you start talking about 194 00:10:45,080 --> 00:10:48,720 Speaker 1: at the beginning of the book is personality tests. So 195 00:10:49,679 --> 00:10:52,840 Speaker 1: how do personality tests help us in our quest to 196 00:10:52,880 --> 00:10:57,440 Speaker 1: be authentically ourselves. I have led women for a couple 197 00:10:57,480 --> 00:11:02,000 Speaker 1: of decades now, and I'm forty five, and so what 198 00:11:02,080 --> 00:11:04,720 Speaker 1: I'm noticing is that a lot of women, even my age, 199 00:11:04,800 --> 00:11:08,520 Speaker 1: even older frankly, are saying, hell, I don't even know 200 00:11:08,559 --> 00:11:11,959 Speaker 1: who I am. Like you're asking me to be myself, 201 00:11:12,040 --> 00:11:14,360 Speaker 1: to be the core center of who I am, and 202 00:11:14,400 --> 00:11:16,680 Speaker 1: I don't know who that is. Like, you know, I 203 00:11:16,800 --> 00:11:21,960 Speaker 1: have spent all these years just tending the flock and 204 00:11:22,000 --> 00:11:25,120 Speaker 1: making sure everybody else was thriving. And so we start 205 00:11:25,160 --> 00:11:26,880 Speaker 1: out at the beginning of the book, like, well, let's 206 00:11:26,920 --> 00:11:29,760 Speaker 1: just start with who you are, not necessarily what you do, 207 00:11:30,320 --> 00:11:33,880 Speaker 1: not necessarily what you care about or what you believe in, 208 00:11:34,480 --> 00:11:38,160 Speaker 1: or we'll get to that, but let's start with just 209 00:11:38,320 --> 00:11:41,679 Speaker 1: who you are, how you were formed, how you flourish 210 00:11:41,800 --> 00:11:44,920 Speaker 1: on this earth. And so we kind of start there, 211 00:11:44,960 --> 00:11:49,680 Speaker 1: like deeply going into personality spaces. Now, personality inventories are 212 00:11:49,720 --> 00:11:54,560 Speaker 1: imperfect one hundred percent. You know, these are these are guides. 213 00:11:54,880 --> 00:11:58,160 Speaker 1: You know, they're not templates. And so however, I just 214 00:11:58,200 --> 00:12:00,680 Speaker 1: have discovered in my life they've been a real useful 215 00:12:00,720 --> 00:12:05,000 Speaker 1: tool for me when I just kept noticing that something 216 00:12:05,040 --> 00:12:07,880 Speaker 1: on the outside was not matching something on the inside. 217 00:12:07,960 --> 00:12:11,439 Speaker 1: That I would have these either feelings or a tension 218 00:12:11,520 --> 00:12:15,480 Speaker 1: point or whatever, an emotion that I was carrying on 219 00:12:15,480 --> 00:12:17,400 Speaker 1: the inside, but that didn't have permission to live on 220 00:12:17,440 --> 00:12:20,120 Speaker 1: the outside. So anyway, personality inventories helped me. Are you 221 00:12:20,160 --> 00:12:23,440 Speaker 1: familiar at all the enneagram? I am? I don't know 222 00:12:23,520 --> 00:12:27,600 Speaker 1: for sure which one I am, but you found one 223 00:12:27,640 --> 00:12:31,880 Speaker 1: that totally seemed to explain you. Right. It was weird, 224 00:12:31,960 --> 00:12:35,040 Speaker 1: it was it read me my mail. It's called the 225 00:12:35,280 --> 00:12:37,920 Speaker 1: enneagram E N N E, A, G R, A M. 226 00:12:38,080 --> 00:12:42,520 Speaker 1: And again, none of these are perfect, but that particular 227 00:12:42,600 --> 00:12:47,040 Speaker 1: tool really unlocked some doors for me, not just in 228 00:12:47,120 --> 00:12:50,400 Speaker 1: just decoding who I really am and how to sort 229 00:12:50,400 --> 00:12:51,880 Speaker 1: of structure my life in a way that I'm going 230 00:12:51,920 --> 00:12:54,520 Speaker 1: to flourish, but also how to be married to this 231 00:12:54,559 --> 00:12:56,880 Speaker 1: person I'm married to, and I learned what his number 232 00:12:57,040 --> 00:12:59,640 Speaker 1: was and how those two numbers connect and my kids 233 00:12:59,679 --> 00:13:03,360 Speaker 1: and my community. So I hope that Fierce takes women 234 00:13:03,720 --> 00:13:06,000 Speaker 1: out of the starting blocks right there, that they can say, 235 00:13:06,080 --> 00:13:08,840 Speaker 1: let's before we start adding in all these people that 236 00:13:08,880 --> 00:13:12,280 Speaker 1: are in our lives and our work and our passions 237 00:13:12,520 --> 00:13:16,240 Speaker 1: and our convictions, let's begin right at the core of 238 00:13:16,280 --> 00:13:19,960 Speaker 1: who we are and start there. Yes, let's start there. Now. 239 00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:21,800 Speaker 1: For podcast listeners, we're going to pause right here to 240 00:13:21,840 --> 00:13:36,439 Speaker 1: take a quick bad break. We're back with Jen Hatmaker, 241 00:13:36,440 --> 00:13:39,720 Speaker 1: who is talking about her new book, Fierce, Free and 242 00:13:39,800 --> 00:13:43,120 Speaker 1: Full of Fire. We've just been talking personalities. I know 243 00:13:43,200 --> 00:13:46,080 Speaker 1: you discovered something interested which I had as well. You know, 244 00:13:46,160 --> 00:13:51,000 Speaker 1: I didn't know that I could be an introvert because I, 245 00:13:51,040 --> 00:13:53,720 Speaker 1: you know, talk to people like I don't hide any height. 246 00:13:55,400 --> 00:13:58,640 Speaker 1: I talk to people for a living. And so yet 247 00:13:58,679 --> 00:14:01,040 Speaker 1: it explained to me why every time I was forced 248 00:14:01,040 --> 00:14:03,160 Speaker 1: to like stand in a row and like meet fifty 249 00:14:03,160 --> 00:14:05,199 Speaker 1: people at a time, I wanted to go hide in 250 00:14:05,240 --> 00:14:07,840 Speaker 1: the bathroom. It sounds like you may have had a similar, 251 00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:12,520 Speaker 1: similar experience, one hundred percent the same. I included that 252 00:14:12,559 --> 00:14:16,160 Speaker 1: in that same chapter because a few years ago I 253 00:14:16,240 --> 00:14:18,839 Speaker 1: read the book Quiet by Susan Kine. Have you read it? 254 00:14:18,960 --> 00:14:22,280 Speaker 1: I have? I mean it rocked me to my core 255 00:14:22,320 --> 00:14:25,000 Speaker 1: because I'm like, you have a very public life, so 256 00:14:25,120 --> 00:14:28,760 Speaker 1: I and I love people. I just had I had 257 00:14:28,760 --> 00:14:31,160 Speaker 1: a poor definition of what it meant to be an introvert, 258 00:14:31,280 --> 00:14:34,720 Speaker 1: which I thought it meant very reclusive and very perhaps 259 00:14:34,760 --> 00:14:38,320 Speaker 1: shy and not necessarily wanting to have a lot of 260 00:14:38,320 --> 00:14:40,480 Speaker 1: meaningful conversations. And of course that's not what it means 261 00:14:40,480 --> 00:14:44,160 Speaker 1: at all. So when I read Susan's book The Power 262 00:14:44,280 --> 00:14:46,760 Speaker 1: of an Introvert in a World that Can't Stop Talking, 263 00:14:47,000 --> 00:14:48,800 Speaker 1: I felt like I was looking at a mirror. I 264 00:14:48,960 --> 00:14:53,480 Speaker 1: never nobody had ever told me that some of the 265 00:14:53,640 --> 00:14:56,600 Speaker 1: limits on my capacity had to do with introversion. I 266 00:14:56,680 --> 00:14:59,240 Speaker 1: just felt like I was a bad person. I thought, well, 267 00:15:00,120 --> 00:15:03,520 Speaker 1: if I'm just not willing to be completely available right 268 00:15:03,560 --> 00:15:06,720 Speaker 1: at all times, that's my work. You know, I'm a leader. 269 00:15:06,760 --> 00:15:09,760 Speaker 1: I'm even a spiritual leader, and that adds another layer 270 00:15:09,840 --> 00:15:14,200 Speaker 1: onto the shoods of our life. So then that learned 271 00:15:14,280 --> 00:15:17,960 Speaker 1: discovering that I'm pretty much a textbook introvert, it freed 272 00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:20,400 Speaker 1: me up in so many ways. It gave me a 273 00:15:20,440 --> 00:15:25,160 Speaker 1: little bit, honestly, permission to structure my work life a 274 00:15:25,160 --> 00:15:28,760 Speaker 1: little bit differently, so that I was building in areas 275 00:15:28,760 --> 00:15:33,160 Speaker 1: where I could recharge and refuel in quiet, sort of alone, 276 00:15:33,240 --> 00:15:36,120 Speaker 1: and it served me so well. But again, I think 277 00:15:36,120 --> 00:15:38,240 Speaker 1: this is why it matters that we know who we are. 278 00:15:38,960 --> 00:15:42,960 Speaker 1: This work, that sort of digging out, the mining of 279 00:15:43,040 --> 00:15:46,120 Speaker 1: our personality, it's good work. It means something. It's not 280 00:15:46,360 --> 00:15:50,360 Speaker 1: just for like obsessive self reflection. You know, we've had 281 00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:53,280 Speaker 1: enough of that. But rather I think it serves us 282 00:15:53,560 --> 00:15:56,720 Speaker 1: and really deeply informs what we do and how we 283 00:15:56,760 --> 00:15:59,520 Speaker 1: do it, how we love, how we connect with people. 284 00:16:00,280 --> 00:16:03,480 Speaker 1: And so yeah, introvert here big times. So this is 285 00:16:03,520 --> 00:16:05,680 Speaker 1: why my family's laughing at me right now as we 286 00:16:05,720 --> 00:16:09,280 Speaker 1: are sort of in isolation, and we'll see where we're 287 00:16:09,280 --> 00:16:11,440 Speaker 1: at when this comes out. But they're like, mom, this 288 00:16:11,560 --> 00:16:15,400 Speaker 1: is your best life. I'm like, well, before I just 289 00:16:15,520 --> 00:16:19,680 Speaker 1: like to be home, definitely. I've been training for this 290 00:16:19,800 --> 00:16:24,680 Speaker 1: my whole life, exactly exactly. And then part of you know, 291 00:16:24,720 --> 00:16:27,720 Speaker 1: we get to know ourselves, and then part of feeling 292 00:16:27,760 --> 00:16:30,840 Speaker 1: more free in the world is breaking free of some 293 00:16:30,880 --> 00:16:33,720 Speaker 1: of the limitations that we may put on ourselves. And 294 00:16:33,840 --> 00:16:36,720 Speaker 1: you talk about how women in particular maybe try to 295 00:16:36,720 --> 00:16:40,760 Speaker 1: take up less space partly because of concerns about body image, 296 00:16:40,760 --> 00:16:42,800 Speaker 1: for instance, that you know, this is one of the 297 00:16:42,800 --> 00:16:46,200 Speaker 1: ways we limit ourselves, that we are, you know, obsessed 298 00:16:46,200 --> 00:16:49,040 Speaker 1: about that as opposed to obsessed about you know, broader 299 00:16:49,080 --> 00:16:51,520 Speaker 1: things we might change in the world. And you've you've 300 00:16:51,520 --> 00:16:55,040 Speaker 1: had quite a journey in terms of your own body image. 301 00:16:55,040 --> 00:16:56,760 Speaker 1: I wonder if you could talk about that a little 302 00:16:56,800 --> 00:16:59,080 Speaker 1: bit with us, because I know a lot of our 303 00:16:59,120 --> 00:17:03,200 Speaker 1: listeners are struggling with the same thing. It's interesting. I've 304 00:17:03,240 --> 00:17:06,560 Speaker 1: got my launch team who's putting this book out, has 305 00:17:06,600 --> 00:17:08,679 Speaker 1: been reading it now for a couple of weeks, and 306 00:17:08,720 --> 00:17:11,679 Speaker 1: so I've got you know, two thousand people, two thousand 307 00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:15,040 Speaker 1: advanced readers right now, and that chapter is hitting hard, 308 00:17:15,840 --> 00:17:19,840 Speaker 1: the body chapter for women, because it's just ubiquitous. We 309 00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:26,080 Speaker 1: are just not alone in this sense of self loathing 310 00:17:26,280 --> 00:17:30,200 Speaker 1: and body shaming and just a general sense of unhappiness 311 00:17:31,040 --> 00:17:33,239 Speaker 1: with what we look like and what others think of 312 00:17:33,240 --> 00:17:35,959 Speaker 1: what we look like. And I spent quite a bit 313 00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:40,720 Speaker 1: of time really unpacking that for the reader, because this 314 00:17:40,800 --> 00:17:45,879 Speaker 1: is the intended result of an industry hell bent on 315 00:17:47,080 --> 00:17:50,359 Speaker 1: making sure we hate ourselves so that we continue to 316 00:17:50,359 --> 00:17:54,000 Speaker 1: pump billions of dollars into all these quick fixes. And 317 00:17:55,080 --> 00:17:57,959 Speaker 1: it's interesting too when you take a longer view of 318 00:17:58,000 --> 00:18:02,399 Speaker 1: body image, because historically you and I both know what 319 00:18:02,960 --> 00:18:05,160 Speaker 1: pretty is right now. You know, there's a look that's 320 00:18:05,200 --> 00:18:07,600 Speaker 1: out there. We all know what it is, but that's 321 00:18:07,680 --> 00:18:10,800 Speaker 1: just right now, and that's also just right here. You know, 322 00:18:10,920 --> 00:18:15,359 Speaker 1: pretty has The idea of pretty has meandered through enormous 323 00:18:15,400 --> 00:18:20,800 Speaker 1: fluctuations throughout history. And sometimes it's round and squishy and soft. 324 00:18:20,880 --> 00:18:24,439 Speaker 1: Sometimes it's like lean and hard and androgynists and whatever 325 00:18:24,480 --> 00:18:27,560 Speaker 1: it is right now, and so it's a moving target. 326 00:18:27,600 --> 00:18:29,879 Speaker 1: It's not fair. The game is rigged. This is a 327 00:18:30,040 --> 00:18:34,560 Speaker 1: rigged system. And so I have learned a lot from 328 00:18:34,640 --> 00:18:39,040 Speaker 1: practitioners who are very gently teaching us a different way 329 00:18:39,280 --> 00:18:44,040 Speaker 1: to relate to our bodies and how to learn embodiment 330 00:18:44,119 --> 00:18:46,359 Speaker 1: and how to be kind to our bodies. One of 331 00:18:46,359 --> 00:18:49,520 Speaker 1: my favorite teachers is doctor Hillary McBride, and I quote 332 00:18:49,520 --> 00:18:53,919 Speaker 1: her liberally in that chapter and she suggests, and I 333 00:18:54,000 --> 00:18:57,240 Speaker 1: love this, This has fundamentally changed something inside of me. 334 00:18:57,400 --> 00:19:00,639 Speaker 1: But you know, she says, we are terrible to our bodies, 335 00:19:00,680 --> 00:19:04,920 Speaker 1: both physically and emotionally. We're mean. And so she says, 336 00:19:04,960 --> 00:19:07,240 Speaker 1: our body is not an it. It's not an it, 337 00:19:07,240 --> 00:19:11,359 Speaker 1: it's not the separate, unfortunate container just walking us around 338 00:19:11,359 --> 00:19:14,640 Speaker 1: on this earth. She suggests, calling our body a her 339 00:19:14,920 --> 00:19:18,080 Speaker 1: or a she, that she is just as much a 340 00:19:18,160 --> 00:19:21,480 Speaker 1: part of who we are as our minds, as our hearts, 341 00:19:21,520 --> 00:19:25,399 Speaker 1: as our convictions. And so I have taken to thinking 342 00:19:25,440 --> 00:19:27,199 Speaker 1: of my body as a sheet and speaking to her 343 00:19:27,400 --> 00:19:30,680 Speaker 1: as such, like she did a great job today, and 344 00:19:31,160 --> 00:19:33,399 Speaker 1: she walked me through a lot of hard things today 345 00:19:33,400 --> 00:19:36,159 Speaker 1: and kept me calm and kept me kept me sound 346 00:19:36,200 --> 00:19:39,679 Speaker 1: and grounded. And so this kind of gentle talking to 347 00:19:39,880 --> 00:19:43,360 Speaker 1: our bodies in a way that appreciates all she's done 348 00:19:43,440 --> 00:19:46,440 Speaker 1: for us every single day, getting us through another day. 349 00:19:46,880 --> 00:19:51,920 Speaker 1: It's really changing my mind about how I see myself. Yeah, 350 00:19:52,080 --> 00:19:54,679 Speaker 1: now I love that too, And to think about my 351 00:19:54,720 --> 00:19:58,359 Speaker 1: body as she and thank her for sort of the 352 00:19:58,400 --> 00:20:04,119 Speaker 1: amazing things she's she's done. And another part that really 353 00:20:04,480 --> 00:20:07,280 Speaker 1: spoke to me in your book, you talk about being 354 00:20:07,320 --> 00:20:10,440 Speaker 1: mindful of your yeses, one of my five favorite ideas 355 00:20:10,440 --> 00:20:11,960 Speaker 1: that you talk about. Now you have five kids. I 356 00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:14,440 Speaker 1: also have five kids, but mine are mine are a 357 00:20:14,480 --> 00:20:16,840 Speaker 1: little younger than yours. We haven't gotten to this point yet. 358 00:20:16,840 --> 00:20:20,400 Speaker 1: But when your kids turn thirteen, you take them on 359 00:20:20,480 --> 00:20:25,840 Speaker 1: a trip where you get to say yes a lot. Yeah. 360 00:20:26,000 --> 00:20:29,080 Speaker 1: So what does that look like? What are these yes trips? 361 00:20:29,440 --> 00:20:32,639 Speaker 1: I love telling that story embedded in that chapter of 362 00:20:32,680 --> 00:20:36,440 Speaker 1: How to Correctly Choose our Yeses and our Nose because 363 00:20:36,480 --> 00:20:39,000 Speaker 1: women are a mess about this. We are handing out 364 00:20:39,160 --> 00:20:42,479 Speaker 1: way more yeses than we're interested in actually handing out. 365 00:20:42,560 --> 00:20:45,399 Speaker 1: It's making us angry, and it's we're just sort of 366 00:20:45,520 --> 00:20:47,840 Speaker 1: unraveling at the seams. And so I start that chapter 367 00:20:47,840 --> 00:20:50,359 Speaker 1: out by telling this great story which when our oldest 368 00:20:50,400 --> 00:20:54,920 Speaker 1: son was approaching thirteen. How old are your kids? Twelve, ten, eight, 369 00:20:55,119 --> 00:20:57,840 Speaker 1: five and a baby? Okay, okay, so right where you 370 00:20:57,880 --> 00:21:01,800 Speaker 1: are literally yes, Like, oh wow, we're in the weeds 371 00:21:01,840 --> 00:21:05,119 Speaker 1: like every day, and so we're going to have to 372 00:21:05,160 --> 00:21:08,720 Speaker 1: figure out how to do something special with each kid, 373 00:21:08,840 --> 00:21:10,320 Speaker 1: just one on you know, one on one time is 374 00:21:10,320 --> 00:21:12,840 Speaker 1: hard to come by in a big family. And so 375 00:21:13,880 --> 00:21:17,919 Speaker 1: our oldest kid was approaching thirteen, and we decided that 376 00:21:18,480 --> 00:21:22,960 Speaker 1: when every kid turns thirteen, one parent like that gender parent. 377 00:21:23,040 --> 00:21:25,560 Speaker 1: So Brandon's taking the boys and I took the girls. 378 00:21:26,080 --> 00:21:28,000 Speaker 1: It's going to take that kid on a surprise trip 379 00:21:28,040 --> 00:21:30,040 Speaker 1: and they will not know where, and they will not 380 00:21:30,160 --> 00:21:33,000 Speaker 1: know when, and they won't know anything about it. We 381 00:21:33,040 --> 00:21:35,240 Speaker 1: will just yank them out of their beds and put 382 00:21:35,240 --> 00:21:36,880 Speaker 1: them in the car and drive them to the airport 383 00:21:37,040 --> 00:21:38,600 Speaker 1: and we take about a three or a four day 384 00:21:38,640 --> 00:21:42,159 Speaker 1: trip with them, and we call them Yes trips because 385 00:21:42,680 --> 00:21:45,720 Speaker 1: we just decided that they were going to be sort 386 00:21:45,760 --> 00:21:50,440 Speaker 1: of extravagant and permissive and not necessarily extravagant in terms 387 00:21:50,480 --> 00:21:54,240 Speaker 1: of being expensive. Just like, Mom, can we order room 388 00:21:54,280 --> 00:21:57,639 Speaker 1: service at eleven PM? Yes? Can I have French fries 389 00:21:57,680 --> 00:22:01,480 Speaker 1: for dinner? Yes? Can I have coke for black Yes? Like, 390 00:22:02,160 --> 00:22:04,959 Speaker 1: if it is within the realm of possibility and it 391 00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:08,600 Speaker 1: wasn't dangerous, we're like yes, we say yes. My last 392 00:22:08,920 --> 00:22:11,040 Speaker 1: My last trip was last year, my last thirteen year 393 00:22:11,080 --> 00:22:15,120 Speaker 1: old and she said, Mom, I want to get We 394 00:22:15,119 --> 00:22:16,920 Speaker 1: were in New York City and she said, I want 395 00:22:16,960 --> 00:22:22,119 Speaker 1: to get my eyebrows threaded. I'm like, let's go. So 396 00:22:22,359 --> 00:22:24,359 Speaker 1: I'm like, this is a yes trip, and I told 397 00:22:24,359 --> 00:22:26,080 Speaker 1: her this is one hundred percent yes. But you don't 398 00:22:26,080 --> 00:22:28,080 Speaker 1: get to say no. You don't get to feel the 399 00:22:28,119 --> 00:22:30,199 Speaker 1: first thread and go, oh, I changed my mind. I'm 400 00:22:30,280 --> 00:22:34,680 Speaker 1: done one thread. That this beautiful family tradition. And so 401 00:22:34,800 --> 00:22:36,920 Speaker 1: every kid who knew it was coming, they never knew when. 402 00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:39,520 Speaker 1: So like two weeks leading up to their thirteenth birthday, 403 00:22:39,560 --> 00:22:41,800 Speaker 1: they are on pins and needles and just one of 404 00:22:41,880 --> 00:22:44,960 Speaker 1: my favorite memories of being a mom that that sounds wonderful. 405 00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:46,840 Speaker 1: I mean there's one on one trips or even one 406 00:22:46,840 --> 00:22:51,399 Speaker 1: on one like afternoons that's all you got. Totally are great. 407 00:22:52,040 --> 00:22:53,760 Speaker 1: You know, being able to say yes to these things 408 00:22:53,840 --> 00:22:56,040 Speaker 1: is wonderful. And part of that is been saying no 409 00:22:56,160 --> 00:22:59,000 Speaker 1: to the that we don't care about. And so, what's 410 00:22:59,080 --> 00:23:02,520 Speaker 1: what's your advice for for getting better at that for 411 00:23:02,600 --> 00:23:05,080 Speaker 1: people who tend to say yes to things that they 412 00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:08,879 Speaker 1: don't Actually, I've packed that. I absolutely packed that chapter 413 00:23:08,960 --> 00:23:13,240 Speaker 1: with resources and ideas because the truth is, I think 414 00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:17,520 Speaker 1: women are overextended because we're incredibly capable. So people are 415 00:23:17,560 --> 00:23:20,040 Speaker 1: just going to continue to ask us to do things 416 00:23:20,080 --> 00:23:22,480 Speaker 1: because they know we can, and they know we can 417 00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:24,359 Speaker 1: pull it off, and they know we can accomplish it. 418 00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:28,080 Speaker 1: And so this we cannot count on our environments to 419 00:23:28,119 --> 00:23:30,480 Speaker 1: slow their role. This is going to be our work, right. 420 00:23:30,560 --> 00:23:33,159 Speaker 1: We're the only ones who are going to be able 421 00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:35,600 Speaker 1: to hold any sort of boundary on our time and 422 00:23:35,720 --> 00:23:39,080 Speaker 1: energy sort of exertion. And so I have a couple 423 00:23:39,160 --> 00:23:41,240 Speaker 1: of rules that I put in there that have really 424 00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:43,440 Speaker 1: served me well that I learned from other teachers. One 425 00:23:43,520 --> 00:23:46,959 Speaker 1: is that Greg McCowan wrote a book called Essentialism, and 426 00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:49,919 Speaker 1: he said, this is fantastic. He said, Okay, as you 427 00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:52,119 Speaker 1: are considering all your options, and I say, we have 428 00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:55,440 Speaker 1: a thousand options for every one hundred spots, right, get 429 00:23:55,800 --> 00:23:59,320 Speaker 1: really really laser focused on what is my goal? What 430 00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:01,760 Speaker 1: do I want here? What am I good at? What 431 00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:03,960 Speaker 1: do I really really want to say yes too? And 432 00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:06,199 Speaker 1: how do I want to get there? And what do 433 00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:08,280 Speaker 1: I want to do? And then with that goal in mind, 434 00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:14,320 Speaker 1: like very very specifically evaluate every incoming request by either 435 00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:17,439 Speaker 1: rating it by rating it from zero to one hundred 436 00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:22,320 Speaker 1: based on how much does this opportunity meet my goals 437 00:24:23,040 --> 00:24:25,960 Speaker 1: and if it's in ninety or above, you say yes, 438 00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:28,639 Speaker 1: and that's a good yes, that's an easy yes. But 439 00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:32,440 Speaker 1: if it is an eighty nine or lower, you change 440 00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:35,639 Speaker 1: its score to zero and you cancel it out. And 441 00:24:35,680 --> 00:24:38,239 Speaker 1: so he says, in this way, you are sort of 442 00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:41,920 Speaker 1: reserving your energy and your time for your highest level 443 00:24:41,920 --> 00:24:45,440 Speaker 1: of contribution, and you are saying yes to the very, 444 00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:48,920 Speaker 1: very best opportunities. I love this because I typically say 445 00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:53,720 Speaker 1: yes to everything in the eighties because it's close, it's close, 446 00:24:53,840 --> 00:24:56,639 Speaker 1: it's close, and or and I feel a sense of 447 00:24:56,680 --> 00:25:00,440 Speaker 1: obligation somewhere in the eighties, or like I I should 448 00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:02,800 Speaker 1: do this, or even I should want to do this. 449 00:25:03,520 --> 00:25:07,320 Speaker 1: And so that ninety percent role has deeply, deeply affected 450 00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:09,200 Speaker 1: me to be able to say this is not my 451 00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:11,199 Speaker 1: highest point of contribution. I'm going to say no. And 452 00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:15,080 Speaker 1: the good news is like my seventy eight is somebody 453 00:25:15,119 --> 00:25:17,720 Speaker 1: else's ninety five. Let them have it, Like, let them 454 00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:20,560 Speaker 1: have it. The short version of this, this is the 455 00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:23,800 Speaker 1: shorthand bit that I tell my people all the time, 456 00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:27,199 Speaker 1: is this, when you are considering an opportunity, if it 457 00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:30,160 Speaker 1: is not a hell yes, then it's a no yeap. 458 00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:32,560 Speaker 1: And so that's the short version of that long story 459 00:25:32,560 --> 00:25:34,720 Speaker 1: where if it's not a hell, if it's like a 460 00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:37,600 Speaker 1: kind of yes, or like a medium yes, or I 461 00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:41,320 Speaker 1: guess I ought to yes, it's a no. So let's 462 00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:47,560 Speaker 1: talk about honesty, because you advocate radical honesty in this book, 463 00:25:48,440 --> 00:25:51,320 Speaker 1: the different people in our lives and getting clear with 464 00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:55,680 Speaker 1: what we want, what our desires are. That sounds scary? Yeah? 465 00:25:55,960 --> 00:25:57,480 Speaker 1: Is it scary? I mean, how do we how do 466 00:25:57,520 --> 00:26:00,239 Speaker 1: we get past that? That if we're honest, we'll will 467 00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:02,399 Speaker 1: learn things we don't want to know or well, and 468 00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:06,920 Speaker 1: that you know, we will upset people. I mean, this 469 00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:12,119 Speaker 1: is one hundred percent true, and so I want to 470 00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:16,720 Speaker 1: honor the fact that it is indeed scary to live 471 00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:22,240 Speaker 1: that way. And we have been conditioned early on that 472 00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:24,640 Speaker 1: it is essentially up to the women in the room 473 00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:27,960 Speaker 1: to make sure that everybody else is comfortable right, and 474 00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:30,920 Speaker 1: to adjust the dial to the tone of the room 475 00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:36,320 Speaker 1: to avoid interruption or challenge or tension or disagreement. And so, 476 00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:40,359 Speaker 1: you know, we learned early on that we were expected 477 00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:43,399 Speaker 1: to maintain the correct temperature in the room that somebody 478 00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:48,720 Speaker 1: else already said. But the obvious downside of that is 479 00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:52,320 Speaker 1: that we have to silence our own voices, our own convictions, 480 00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:55,199 Speaker 1: our own gifts, our own influence, and we have a 481 00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:58,040 Speaker 1: right to those things. We have a right to our 482 00:26:58,080 --> 00:27:01,240 Speaker 1: own agency and our own authority, and our own ideas 483 00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:05,680 Speaker 1: and any tension that those create. That's an important challenge 484 00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:08,120 Speaker 1: to the status quo, which, of course, by the way, 485 00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:11,879 Speaker 1: still favors the same categories of people all the time. 486 00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:16,320 Speaker 1: And so I think we have to challenge this instinct. 487 00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:20,639 Speaker 1: But I want to acknowledge the fear, because it's true. 488 00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:23,880 Speaker 1: There is a cost to telling the truth in all 489 00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:28,080 Speaker 1: facets of our lives. It is disruptive. When women finally 490 00:27:28,119 --> 00:27:30,240 Speaker 1: tell the truth about who they are, about what they 491 00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:33,440 Speaker 1: need or want, about what they believe. That sends shock 492 00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:37,840 Speaker 1: waves along the little worlds we have helped create. It's true, 493 00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:43,439 Speaker 1: but I suspect that women who are living in that 494 00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:48,120 Speaker 1: place of sort of silence and submission probably feel how 495 00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:52,520 Speaker 1: I felt to some degree for years, which was hamstrung 496 00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:56,359 Speaker 1: and fraudulent and even and I mean this gently, but 497 00:27:56,400 --> 00:27:58,359 Speaker 1: even cowardly. And I thought, this is not how I 498 00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:00,680 Speaker 1: want to live, This is not the mark I want 499 00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:03,880 Speaker 1: to leave on this earth. And so I just came 500 00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:07,480 Speaker 1: to the point where I thought, I'm supposedly keeping the peace, 501 00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:11,360 Speaker 1: but I don't have any peace. And also I'm keeping 502 00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:14,520 Speaker 1: the peace, but I am robbing some other communities of 503 00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:17,040 Speaker 1: peace because I am unwilling to come alongside of them 504 00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:19,840 Speaker 1: like I feel convicted to. And so yes, there is 505 00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:23,480 Speaker 1: a cost built into telling the truth, but I will 506 00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:26,280 Speaker 1: walk every reader through it. I put so many tools 507 00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:28,840 Speaker 1: and resources in the hands of every reader, like scripts, 508 00:28:29,040 --> 00:28:32,399 Speaker 1: actual language and conversations that I've had and that I 509 00:28:32,440 --> 00:28:36,040 Speaker 1: can model and walk readers through the process of integration 510 00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:38,760 Speaker 1: and of telling the truth and of finally showing up 511 00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:42,560 Speaker 1: and then ultimately being free and true and real. And 512 00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:46,479 Speaker 1: I am telling you the work is worth it. It 513 00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:50,200 Speaker 1: is worth the cost, It is worth the tension because 514 00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:53,960 Speaker 1: the endgame is such liberation and honesty, Like I just 515 00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:58,040 Speaker 1: cannot even put a price tag on living that that way. Yeah, 516 00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:01,160 Speaker 1: And one of the other things that is worth doing 517 00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:04,320 Speaker 1: the work that you talk about is finding your people 518 00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:07,840 Speaker 1: that they help make this journey toward radical honesty of 519 00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:09,400 Speaker 1: knowing who we are, knowing what we want in the 520 00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:13,200 Speaker 1: world just more pleasant in general, more fun. And you know, 521 00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:15,560 Speaker 1: a lot of listeners in this podcast are very busy 522 00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:19,280 Speaker 1: with work with family. How do we go about finding 523 00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:24,160 Speaker 1: our people and nurturing those relationships. Yeah, this is the 524 00:29:24,280 --> 00:29:32,800 Speaker 1: point of loneliness, honestly, and sadness that feels really common 525 00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:36,600 Speaker 1: to the community of women right now. And it's interesting 526 00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:40,880 Speaker 1: because we're expected to do right now what generations before 527 00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:45,680 Speaker 1: us really weren't, which is be like the pinterest worthy 528 00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:50,040 Speaker 1: mom and have this thriving, beautiful career that is meaningful 529 00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:54,400 Speaker 1: and impacting the world and tending to beautiful like homes. 530 00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:58,560 Speaker 1: And we're kind of expected to do everything. And at 531 00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:03,320 Speaker 1: the same time, we're most distanced and disconnected from our 532 00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:08,120 Speaker 1: extended families, from our parents and our siblings. We don't 533 00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:11,400 Speaker 1: live necessarily where we grew up or where our families are. 534 00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:17,240 Speaker 1: Neighbors in general are less connected, and so we're expected 535 00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:19,760 Speaker 1: to do more with less connection. And so it's no 536 00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:22,920 Speaker 1: wonder that women are drowning in loneliness and they're not alone, 537 00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:25,280 Speaker 1: they really really aren't. And so I think the first 538 00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:26,800 Speaker 1: thing I want to say to women is you're not 539 00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:30,360 Speaker 1: doing anything wrong. You are just expected to do so 540 00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:32,400 Speaker 1: much right now that we used to kind of have 541 00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:36,640 Speaker 1: a village around and now we don't. And so one 542 00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:38,360 Speaker 1: of the writers that I reference in there calls it 543 00:30:39,360 --> 00:30:44,640 Speaker 1: we have villageless lives, and so I just really challenge 544 00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:51,600 Speaker 1: the notion that really close and meaningful relationships are secondary 545 00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:56,240 Speaker 1: or optional. There's a lot of data that tells us 546 00:30:57,120 --> 00:31:02,560 Speaker 1: that connected, meaningful relationships are positively more than any of 547 00:31:03,040 --> 00:31:05,920 Speaker 1: more than any other factor literally on earth. The key 548 00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:11,040 Speaker 1: to either living a life of like meaning and flourishing 549 00:31:11,800 --> 00:31:14,520 Speaker 1: or living a life of sort of loneliness and sorry 550 00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:17,080 Speaker 1: like this is if this is the one place we 551 00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:21,560 Speaker 1: spend our energy, it's the right place. And so I 552 00:31:22,360 --> 00:31:24,640 Speaker 1: put a lot of options in front of people. This 553 00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:27,120 Speaker 1: is how to find people. And here's the thing. I 554 00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:29,240 Speaker 1: think what women are gonna have to The hurdle they're 555 00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:33,360 Speaker 1: going to have to jump is the risk. And women 556 00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:36,520 Speaker 1: have been burned before, or they're afraid, or they're new somewhere, 557 00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:39,120 Speaker 1: or they're in transition in some way, and so it 558 00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:42,960 Speaker 1: feels risky to be vulnerable with somebody to sort of 559 00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:45,920 Speaker 1: take a little step out onto a relational ledge to 560 00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:49,720 Speaker 1: see if it'll hold. But there's no other way. There's 561 00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:53,080 Speaker 1: just no other way. There's not a shortcut, there's not 562 00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:57,400 Speaker 1: an easy, guaranteed rout around. We're just gonna have to 563 00:31:57,520 --> 00:32:03,760 Speaker 1: decide if being lone only is worth being safe or 564 00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:07,440 Speaker 1: if the risk factor, the vulnerability is worth it. And 565 00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:09,720 Speaker 1: I contend that it is. And so I don't think 566 00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:12,680 Speaker 1: we have to build communities where we have twenty five 567 00:32:12,880 --> 00:32:16,560 Speaker 1: best friends in the world. You know, one is enough 568 00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:20,040 Speaker 1: to absolutely change the game, one that you can count on. 569 00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:23,040 Speaker 1: And so I have such love in my heart and 570 00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:25,840 Speaker 1: such empathy for women who feel lonely, and I hope 571 00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:30,560 Speaker 1: that the tools from Fierce will really encourage them to 572 00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:32,640 Speaker 1: step out there, to get out there. One thing that 573 00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:36,920 Speaker 1: I say inside the book is instead of waiting for community, 574 00:32:37,360 --> 00:32:40,600 Speaker 1: provide it and you'll end up with it anyway. And 575 00:32:40,680 --> 00:32:42,560 Speaker 1: so we can be the first one to raise our 576 00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:45,200 Speaker 1: hand and say I'll go first. Easier said than done, 577 00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:48,480 Speaker 1: but good advice exactly. So, Jan we always end our 578 00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:51,120 Speaker 1: interviews with a love of the week, which is something 579 00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:54,520 Speaker 1: cool that is in our world right now. I can 580 00:32:54,560 --> 00:32:57,200 Speaker 1: go first, so you can have a minute to think. 581 00:32:57,280 --> 00:33:00,959 Speaker 1: But what I am loving right now are is the 582 00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:05,000 Speaker 1: magnolia tree in my front yard that is blossoming. And 583 00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:10,080 Speaker 1: I am currently only seeing my magnolia tree because we 584 00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:12,320 Speaker 1: are not leaving the house. That's right. But if there's 585 00:33:12,360 --> 00:33:13,960 Speaker 1: going to be a time where I can't leave the 586 00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:17,800 Speaker 1: house now is a pretty good time with seeing beautiful 587 00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:21,520 Speaker 1: blossoms of spring. So how about for you? Great, that's 588 00:33:21,560 --> 00:33:25,000 Speaker 1: so great. I probably have too. And this is obviously 589 00:33:25,040 --> 00:33:27,400 Speaker 1: going to also be quarantine related, because that's just the 590 00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:29,280 Speaker 1: life you and I are living right now. Maybe this 591 00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:31,280 Speaker 1: I hope this is obsolete by the time this comes out, 592 00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:38,600 Speaker 1: but we have, just by way of absolute necessity, rediscovered 593 00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:42,640 Speaker 1: the joy of a really hard puzzle. So my thousand 594 00:33:42,640 --> 00:33:45,640 Speaker 1: pieces good to me. I sat with a couple of 595 00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:48,480 Speaker 1: my kids a couple of days ago for three hours 596 00:33:48,520 --> 00:33:51,960 Speaker 1: and I mean focused on the puzzle and it was 597 00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:53,760 Speaker 1: so fun to kind of be with them and watch 598 00:33:53,760 --> 00:33:57,840 Speaker 1: them do that. And then I am also back to 599 00:33:57,880 --> 00:34:01,520 Speaker 1: your earlier question. I'm on Zoom right now with my 600 00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:05,000 Speaker 1: friends and we are doing happy hours at five o'clock 601 00:34:05,040 --> 00:34:08,480 Speaker 1: on our Zoom screens, and it just feels to me 602 00:34:08,640 --> 00:34:10,800 Speaker 1: it's not just seeing my friends, which is so meaningful 603 00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:12,520 Speaker 1: because all I've seen are these people that live here. 604 00:34:12,520 --> 00:34:16,640 Speaker 1: But it reminds me that human beings will do what 605 00:34:16,680 --> 00:34:19,920 Speaker 1: it takes to connect with one another, to encourage one another, 606 00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:22,879 Speaker 1: that we will get creative, that we will get innovative, 607 00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:26,919 Speaker 1: that everything that has ever mattered, still matters, and we'll 608 00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:29,080 Speaker 1: find a way to it. I mean, it may look 609 00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:31,600 Speaker 1: different than what we've been used to, but I have 610 00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:35,320 Speaker 1: just been so encouraged watching humans be beautiful right now 611 00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:38,239 Speaker 1: and finding a way to connect and to love each 612 00:34:38,239 --> 00:34:40,640 Speaker 1: other and to make each other laugh and bring each 613 00:34:40,640 --> 00:34:43,520 Speaker 1: other joy. And so I suspect that we are going 614 00:34:43,600 --> 00:34:48,440 Speaker 1: to emerge from this strange, unprecedented season of social isolation 615 00:34:49,200 --> 00:34:52,759 Speaker 1: really stronger, and that we will be really proud of 616 00:34:52,840 --> 00:34:57,520 Speaker 1: the way we sort of laid down our differences and 617 00:34:57,600 --> 00:35:00,399 Speaker 1: our arguments and found a way to come together. It's 618 00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:03,239 Speaker 1: been a real marvel to watch, and I'm proud to 619 00:35:03,239 --> 00:35:05,680 Speaker 1: be a part of it. Well, let's hope, let's hope 620 00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:08,560 Speaker 1: that's the outcome of all the absolutely all right. Well, 621 00:35:08,600 --> 00:35:10,560 Speaker 1: this has been Jen Hatmaker, who is the author of 622 00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:13,239 Speaker 1: the new book Fierce, Free and Full of Fire, which 623 00:35:13,280 --> 00:35:15,359 Speaker 1: I know our listeners will love, So please pick up 624 00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:19,200 Speaker 1: a copy of that. Thanks for having me on. Well 625 00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:22,320 Speaker 1: that was great, And now we have a listener question 626 00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:26,040 Speaker 1: who writes in I have a topic that may seem silly, 627 00:35:26,120 --> 00:35:29,239 Speaker 1: but I promise it's a genuine concern for me. No 628 00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:31,399 Speaker 1: silly questions. This is all good listeners. You can write 629 00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:33,880 Speaker 1: in with whatever you want. Sorry, those Laura's little aside 630 00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:36,480 Speaker 1: there all right, She writes in to Sarah, I'd love 631 00:35:36,520 --> 00:35:39,160 Speaker 1: to hear how you and Laura manage your friendship, specifically 632 00:35:39,239 --> 00:35:41,799 Speaker 1: keeping up with your connections to your friends. Here's a 633 00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:43,799 Speaker 1: bit of background to give some more color to my question. 634 00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:45,719 Speaker 1: I'm a full time working mom to a fifteen month 635 00:35:45,719 --> 00:35:48,520 Speaker 1: old and I'm expecting baby number two. So she's been 636 00:35:48,520 --> 00:35:51,120 Speaker 1: in the pregnant newborn baby phase for a while and 637 00:35:51,160 --> 00:35:54,040 Speaker 1: will be for a while. So her problem is twofold one. 638 00:35:54,120 --> 00:35:56,400 Speaker 1: Either her friends are in different stages of life, so 639 00:35:56,440 --> 00:35:59,320 Speaker 1: for instance, they have older kids and thus have more freedom, 640 00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:01,560 Speaker 1: or maybe don't have kids and so it's hard to 641 00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:04,400 Speaker 1: coordinate schedules, or second, she's just not keeping up with 642 00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:07,120 Speaker 1: the regular stay in touch communication. For instance, she'll have 643 00:36:07,160 --> 00:36:09,520 Speaker 1: friends who'll text her at all times during the day, 644 00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:12,200 Speaker 1: but then her work life is such that she can't 645 00:36:12,320 --> 00:36:16,080 Speaker 1: respond to texts very quickly, and then she's like, okay, 646 00:36:16,120 --> 00:36:17,480 Speaker 1: well I'll respond at the end of the day, but 647 00:36:17,480 --> 00:36:19,279 Speaker 1: then it gets away from her. In two, three, four 648 00:36:19,360 --> 00:36:22,120 Speaker 1: days later, the text is still sitting there. So I 649 00:36:22,120 --> 00:36:24,479 Speaker 1: feel like my friendships are suffering because of this, She says, 650 00:36:24,520 --> 00:36:26,879 Speaker 1: how can I be better? Should I block out time 651 00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:28,920 Speaker 1: each night to just respond to text? Do you have 652 00:36:28,960 --> 00:36:31,839 Speaker 1: any hacks? And finally, can you please reassure me that 653 00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:34,120 Speaker 1: this is just a phase of life and when my 654 00:36:34,239 --> 00:36:37,680 Speaker 1: kids get older, I will have a social life again. Yeah. 655 00:36:37,719 --> 00:36:40,600 Speaker 1: I think this is a great question because it's relevant 656 00:36:40,640 --> 00:36:43,319 Speaker 1: now during these times when our socializing is a little 657 00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:46,160 Speaker 1: bit more virtual, and it will be relevant later because 658 00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:48,240 Speaker 1: I'm sure people are going to be enjoying these episodes 659 00:36:48,239 --> 00:36:51,200 Speaker 1: for years to come. Right, Okay, so I have a 660 00:36:51,239 --> 00:36:53,960 Speaker 1: few thoughts. First of all, you know, you mentioned that 661 00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:57,080 Speaker 1: the newborn and baby phase like lasts a while, but actually, 662 00:36:57,480 --> 00:37:00,920 Speaker 1: I guess, having come out through the other side, Laura's 663 00:37:00,920 --> 00:37:03,000 Speaker 1: still in it, so maybe she doesn't remember this part. 664 00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:06,319 Speaker 1: But it actually it is kind of fast, like you know, 665 00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:09,160 Speaker 1: before you know it before once a year is up, 666 00:37:09,280 --> 00:37:12,239 Speaker 1: that newborn is becoming a one year old, and as 667 00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:16,439 Speaker 1: time goes your friendships, the ones that really last, they're 668 00:37:16,520 --> 00:37:19,200 Speaker 1: going to weather you know, a year or even two 669 00:37:19,320 --> 00:37:22,040 Speaker 1: years of things being crazy, Like the ones that don't 670 00:37:22,080 --> 00:37:24,040 Speaker 1: matter they might not and then who cares? But the 671 00:37:24,040 --> 00:37:26,239 Speaker 1: ones that really do matter, Like I think of my 672 00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:28,400 Speaker 1: close college friends or even a couple people I've been 673 00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:31,000 Speaker 1: in touch with since high school. It doesn't matter. And 674 00:37:31,040 --> 00:37:32,600 Speaker 1: if a year or two goes by because one of 675 00:37:32,680 --> 00:37:34,239 Speaker 1: us had some kids that are young and we have 676 00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:37,080 Speaker 1: less bandwidth, then that's fine and we can catch up later. 677 00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:39,280 Speaker 1: So I would just remember that, even though it feels 678 00:37:39,320 --> 00:37:42,239 Speaker 1: like forever now, there's always opportunity to catch up on 679 00:37:42,280 --> 00:37:45,160 Speaker 1: those real friendships later on. The second thing I have 680 00:37:45,200 --> 00:37:48,080 Speaker 1: to say is I think that you know, even if 681 00:37:48,120 --> 00:37:52,560 Speaker 1: it's not that frequent, making intentional time together, whether that's 682 00:37:52,600 --> 00:37:56,040 Speaker 1: a virtual zoom call that you're doing during this COVID period, 683 00:37:56,160 --> 00:37:57,680 Speaker 1: you know a lot of people are doing that with 684 00:37:57,719 --> 00:37:59,880 Speaker 1: groups of old friends that actually hadn't been together in 685 00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:03,160 Speaker 1: person for a while, or like with my group of 686 00:38:03,160 --> 00:38:06,120 Speaker 1: college friends, only about half of us have kids. But 687 00:38:06,520 --> 00:38:09,040 Speaker 1: at the same time, we made it a priority to 688 00:38:09,040 --> 00:38:10,560 Speaker 1: get together in person and we try to do it 689 00:38:10,600 --> 00:38:13,120 Speaker 1: once a year. Does it mean that we're not, you know, 690 00:38:13,760 --> 00:38:17,239 Speaker 1: sharing every little thing every day, Sure we don't. I 691 00:38:17,280 --> 00:38:19,600 Speaker 1: mean we're all in different locations and in different phases 692 00:38:19,640 --> 00:38:21,600 Speaker 1: of life. But when we do get together, we still 693 00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:24,080 Speaker 1: feel a real closeness. And then when big things happen 694 00:38:24,239 --> 00:38:27,520 Speaker 1: like the coronavirus. We sort of are still familiar enough 695 00:38:27,560 --> 00:38:29,920 Speaker 1: in each other's lives that we can have an impromptu 696 00:38:30,080 --> 00:38:32,600 Speaker 1: zoom happy hour and it still feels completely meaningful and 697 00:38:32,640 --> 00:38:35,400 Speaker 1: we feel like we haven't missed anything. So I would just, 698 00:38:35,600 --> 00:38:37,919 Speaker 1: you know, don't don't feel like just because there isn't 699 00:38:37,920 --> 00:38:41,680 Speaker 1: a high frequency that your friendships are lost. And then finally, 700 00:38:42,160 --> 00:38:44,520 Speaker 1: you know, the once a day responding to texts. I 701 00:38:44,520 --> 00:38:47,440 Speaker 1: think that actually is kind of a nice idea. I 702 00:38:47,719 --> 00:38:50,640 Speaker 1: myself do not do a good job batching. My husband 703 00:38:50,640 --> 00:38:54,000 Speaker 1: will attest he likes to pantomime knocking my phone out 704 00:38:54,080 --> 00:38:57,239 Speaker 1: of my hands sometimes because I'm not very disciplined, and 705 00:38:57,239 --> 00:39:00,640 Speaker 1: I will get sucked back into a group chat when 706 00:39:00,680 --> 00:39:03,080 Speaker 1: I probably would be better off doing more badging. But 707 00:39:03,280 --> 00:39:05,359 Speaker 1: if badging works to you for you and you can 708 00:39:05,480 --> 00:39:08,000 Speaker 1: do it, consider that like a nice little wind on. 709 00:39:08,160 --> 00:39:10,200 Speaker 1: Perhaps at the end of the day, or if you're pumping, 710 00:39:10,360 --> 00:39:13,080 Speaker 1: save it for a pump session, or you know, fit 711 00:39:13,120 --> 00:39:15,400 Speaker 1: it in where it seems like it fits. What do 712 00:39:15,440 --> 00:39:17,439 Speaker 1: you think, Yeah, I text a lot of people while 713 00:39:17,560 --> 00:39:20,719 Speaker 1: uh pumping or nursing. That seems to be a time 714 00:39:20,760 --> 00:39:23,520 Speaker 1: that I mean, Otherwise I mean on my phone anyway, 715 00:39:23,560 --> 00:39:25,960 Speaker 1: it's hard to hold a book, and so if I'm reading, 716 00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:28,080 Speaker 1: I'm reading on my phone, and so it's easy to 717 00:39:28,120 --> 00:39:31,520 Speaker 1: have conversations as well. You know, you also might consider 718 00:39:31,719 --> 00:39:34,720 Speaker 1: if you could nudge some of your closest friends into 719 00:39:34,800 --> 00:39:39,280 Speaker 1: different forms of communication. So if texting is easier for them, 720 00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:42,600 Speaker 1: then for you, maybe you could ask if you could 721 00:39:42,640 --> 00:39:44,600 Speaker 1: do slightly different things. I mean, if you could like 722 00:39:44,719 --> 00:39:47,600 Speaker 1: FaceTime them for five minutes in the evening to catch 723 00:39:47,719 --> 00:39:50,640 Speaker 1: up on everything, as opposed to the text back and 724 00:39:50,680 --> 00:39:53,480 Speaker 1: forth through the day. Maybe that would work for you, 725 00:39:53,640 --> 00:39:57,040 Speaker 1: or you know, call while you're walking to the train 726 00:39:57,200 --> 00:39:59,239 Speaker 1: or whatever it is, that you can work out a 727 00:39:59,280 --> 00:40:01,879 Speaker 1: way to communicate with them in a slightly different way 728 00:40:01,920 --> 00:40:04,759 Speaker 1: if the text just doesn't work. But yeah, I would 729 00:40:04,800 --> 00:40:07,040 Speaker 1: second that point that it is a phase, like you 730 00:40:07,080 --> 00:40:09,920 Speaker 1: will discover more time for hanging out with friends as 731 00:40:09,960 --> 00:40:13,640 Speaker 1: your kids get older, and which is great. I mean 732 00:40:13,680 --> 00:40:17,319 Speaker 1: there's a dip. People who studied sort of friendships through 733 00:40:17,360 --> 00:40:19,759 Speaker 1: life that there is a dip when people have young 734 00:40:19,840 --> 00:40:23,800 Speaker 1: kids and are very busy with work and with family matters, 735 00:40:23,920 --> 00:40:26,520 Speaker 1: and then as time opens up, it's something that you 736 00:40:26,560 --> 00:40:29,200 Speaker 1: can rediscover and so you just kind of have to 737 00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:34,279 Speaker 1: keep those friendships going, maybe not on full blast during 738 00:40:34,320 --> 00:40:35,959 Speaker 1: that time, but if you can keep just a little 739 00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:37,799 Speaker 1: bit going, then they will be able to go back 740 00:40:37,880 --> 00:40:42,160 Speaker 1: up once everyone's got a little bit more bandwidth. All right, Well, 741 00:40:42,160 --> 00:40:44,400 Speaker 1: this has been best of both worlds. We've been talking 742 00:40:44,440 --> 00:40:47,919 Speaker 1: with Jen Hatmaker about her book Fearce Free and Full 743 00:40:47,920 --> 00:40:51,239 Speaker 1: of Fire. Get it all out, all the f's and 744 00:40:51,320 --> 00:40:53,279 Speaker 1: we'll be back next week with more on making work 745 00:40:53,320 --> 00:40:58,000 Speaker 1: and life fit together. Thanks for listening. You can find 746 00:40:58,000 --> 00:41:01,400 Speaker 1: me Sarah at the shoebox dot com or at the 747 00:41:01,680 --> 00:41:04,799 Speaker 1: Underscore shoe Box on Instagram, and you can find me 748 00:41:05,320 --> 00:41:09,040 Speaker 1: Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. This has been the 749 00:41:09,080 --> 00:41:12,560 Speaker 1: best of both worlds podcasts. Please join us next time 750 00:41:12,880 --> 00:41:15,440 Speaker 1: for more on making work and life work together.