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Speaker 1: If you have your own story of being in a

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Speaker 1: cult or a high control group, or if you've had

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Speaker 1: an experience with manipulation or abusive power you'd like to share,

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Speaker 1: leave us a message on our hotline number at five

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Speaker 1: one three nine hundred two nine five five, or she.

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Speaker 2: Had us an email at trust Me pod at gmail

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Speaker 2: dot com.

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Speaker 3: Trust Me, Trust trust Me.

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Speaker 4: I'm like a swat person.

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Speaker 3: I've never lived. To you, I never had a live.

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Speaker 1: If you think that one person has all the answers,

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Speaker 1: don't welcome to trust Me. The podcast about cults, extreme

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Speaker 1: belief and the abusive power from two supermodels who've actually

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Speaker 1: experienced it. I am Lola Blanc and I'm Megan Elizabeth.

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Speaker 1: And today our guest is the endlessly fascinating Hoyt Richards.

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Speaker 1: He is a producer, actor, and former supermodel who was

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Speaker 1: in a cult called Eternal Values. He's going to tell

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Speaker 1: us about being approached by a mysterious older man in

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Speaker 1: Nantucket named Frederick von Meerers. Mir I actually don't remember myers.

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Speaker 1: Let's say when he was a teenager. This man had

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Speaker 1: a lot to say about Eastern philosophy, astrology and New

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Speaker 1: Age thinking, and going to tell us about how over time,

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Speaker 1: as Hoyt's career as a male model was taking off,

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Speaker 1: that man indoctrinated Hoyt until he believed that the apocalypse

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Speaker 1: was coming and it had to do with a distant

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Speaker 1: star called Arcturists.

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Speaker 2: We're also going to talk about how Hoyit finally escaped

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Speaker 2: and began to heal, how he thinks about what he

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Speaker 2: now calls cultic relationships, and how Fabio Yes that Fabio

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Speaker 2: was involved in his recovery.

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Speaker 1: Great Fabio stories.

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Speaker 2: Oh who doesn't have a good Fabio's story?

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Speaker 1: Uh?

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Speaker 2: Everyone except why?

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Speaker 1: I mean probably my friend. My friend just alerted me

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Speaker 1: to the fact that he was like supporting Trump in

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Speaker 1: twenty seventeen. Stars a little about that. But you know, okay,

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Speaker 1: we can't all be perfect. Now, we can all be

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Speaker 1: perfect like me. Uh so megan to tell me what's.

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Speaker 2: The CULTI saying, well, mine, holy shit. On a hike,

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Speaker 2: you know how they have those little book things where

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Speaker 2: you people just leave books and like a little oh yes, okay,

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Speaker 2: So in a bookcase there was this book called High

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Speaker 2: on Arrival. I McKenzie Phillips. I remember singing on Oprah

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Speaker 2: she is the daughter of the Mama and the Papa's

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Speaker 2: John Phillips.

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Speaker 1: The Mama Singular and the Papas different band. This is

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Speaker 1: the Mama and the Papas. I don't know if you've

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Speaker 1: heard of them.

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Speaker 2: So I was like, oh, fuck you, I want to

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Speaker 2: read this book. Holy shit, the cult of rock and

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Speaker 2: roll is endless, it is wild. It's all stuff we

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Speaker 2: already knew. But you know, she actually was in a

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Speaker 2: sexual relationship.

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Speaker 5: With her rock star father for ten years.

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Speaker 2: And just to see the things that these rock stars

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Speaker 2: were able to get away with, how much they were worshiped,

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Speaker 2: their lifestyles are just beyond the craziest cults.

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Speaker 1: Wow, it's so true when you actually look into the

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Speaker 1: number of young teenagers not like what I'm talking year

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Speaker 1: olds eight nineteen, yeah, and fucking thirteen year old that

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Speaker 1: these iconic rock legends were fucking making songs about Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Oh my god, it's insane. But that's next level though.

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Speaker 1: Her dad, her dad, So how old was she when

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Speaker 1: that started?

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Speaker 5: Let me think, Let me think, let me.

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Speaker 1: Trigger warning, obviously we're about to talk. Pardon yes, trigger Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I think the first time it happened she was in

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Speaker 2: her early twenties, but I don't know.

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Speaker 1: Oh so it wasn't like from when she was a child.

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Speaker 5: She wasn't a child, but she was young.

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Speaker 1: But did she say how she felt about it.

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Speaker 2: I believe they were in a different country, they were somewhere,

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Speaker 2: they were in a hotel. They're both very high on drugs,

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Speaker 2: and she said she passed out and then she woke

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Speaker 2: up and that was happening. And then she like told

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Speaker 2: her family about it, and everyone was very upset. But

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Speaker 2: they were like, you know, this is going to ruin

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Speaker 2: his reputation. He's on a lot of drugs, like whatever.

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Speaker 2: And then I was very impressed. I mean, this is

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Speaker 2: assuming this is all correct, which in real which I

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Speaker 2: think it is. But she said she talked to him

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Speaker 2: a few months later. I was like, Dad, we need

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Speaker 2: to talk about when you rape. And he was like,

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Speaker 2: you mean when we made love?

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Speaker 4: Like no, no, and she was like, I think he's

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Speaker 4: just so high on drugs.

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Speaker 2: It's like he doesn't know what's right and what's wrong.

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Speaker 2: And then a few years later it just started happening

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Speaker 2: like every day.

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Speaker 1: So he basically gas led her so hard and convinced

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Speaker 1: her that the rape was actually something that she yeah,

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Speaker 1: oh my god, that's horrible. Sorry, made we already did

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Speaker 1: the trigger warning, but sorry, I wasn't prepared. I wasn't

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Speaker 1: prepared for this one. Yeah, that's fucking insane. Yeah, you

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Speaker 1: had mentioned another awful story about how Mick Jagger also

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Speaker 1: was sitting with this poor girl's girl.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. She said that her and her dad and mcgagger

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Speaker 2: were doing drugs one night and like mcjager asked her

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Speaker 2: dad for a tuna sandwich and when her dad disappeared,

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Speaker 2: McJagger locked the door and picked up with her, and

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Speaker 2: her dad was like pounding on the door like, hey,

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Speaker 2: that's my daughter, but not even really mad that McJagger

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Speaker 2: is having sex with st Oh, it's just a It

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Speaker 2: was even David Bowie.

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Speaker 1: Even David Bowie was sleeping with thirteen year old Are

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Speaker 1: we surprised by that?

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Speaker 5: I know, I don't know.

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Speaker 1: It just sucks. I think every old man listening to

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Speaker 1: this is gonna be like there were different times, right,

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Speaker 1: but thirteen y'all? No, No, that's a little kid. That's gross.

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Speaker 1: That's a kid.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, what about you?

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Speaker 1: Well, I don't know I can follow that up, but

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Speaker 1: that was my plan. We do really assign rock stars

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Speaker 1: this iconic cult leader status and they get away with

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Speaker 1: whatever the fuck we want, as we have talked about

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Speaker 1: a bit, But that would be an interesting episode actually,

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Speaker 1: like an old groupie. Yeah, that'd be cool. Yeah, we

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Speaker 1: should try to find any groupies former groupees listening, please

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Speaker 1: dm us my coldiest thing. Look, I had a real

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Speaker 1: decompression week, so I didn't do that much. However, after

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Speaker 1: last week's episode in which I talked about or was

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Speaker 1: it the week before, I don't remember, one of the

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Speaker 1: last two weeks in which I talked about the experience

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Speaker 1: that I had with the Shabar artist, the rope bondage guy,

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Speaker 1: and I was saying how that was a really cool

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Speaker 1: experience for me because you know, previously, when I have

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Speaker 1: hooked up with men who kind of identify as dominant

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Speaker 1: or whatever, it's just kind of like purely aggressive and

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Speaker 1: no communication. I got some angry messages, oh and a

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Speaker 1: couple of supportive ones as well, being like this is

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Speaker 1: how BEDSM always is. It sounds like that's the only

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Speaker 1: person you've ever you know, had an experience with who

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Speaker 1: was legitimately in the BDSM community. So let me be

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Speaker 1: clear everyone, Yes, the safe do you remember what the

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Speaker 1: acronym was? All right? She was saying they change it

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Speaker 1: to risk aware consensual king. But basically the idea is that, like,

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Speaker 1: if you're actually in the king community, you are practicing

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Speaker 1: active consent, You are communicating in advance, you are making

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Speaker 1: sure that the other person is comfortable with everything that's happening.

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Speaker 1: It is really all about the subs comfort level, not

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Speaker 1: the doms. So yes, if you are actually in the

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Speaker 1: kink community, I am so sorry if I have offended you. However,

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Speaker 1: I think it's important to discuss the fact that usually

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Speaker 1: that's not what's happening. I've hooked up with a number

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Speaker 1: of men in my day, even if it's just like

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Speaker 1: a makeout or whatever. Like, I've hooked up in some

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Speaker 1: fashion with a number of fellas in Los Angeles, and

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Speaker 1: let me tell you, a good portion of them were

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Speaker 1: choking or you know, like doing something relatively aggressive. The

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Speaker 1: number of them who actually like asked what I wanted

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Speaker 1: and checked in and communicated with me about that I

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Speaker 1: can count on one hand. That's psycho. I mean most

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Speaker 1: women I know have this experience. Though, is that has

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Speaker 1: not been your experience?

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Speaker 3: No?

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Speaker 1: Really, no, I mean it's not like they're doing it

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Speaker 1: crazy hard, right, But like, I think that is definitely

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Speaker 1: more normal than not. And it's not like they're trying

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Speaker 1: shabari on me and you know, like yeah, or doing

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Speaker 1: anything crazy. But most people just kind of willy nilly,

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Speaker 1: like do the thing because they think that that's hot

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Speaker 1: or that's what the girl's gonna find hot whatever. They

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Speaker 1: don't fucking communicate about it at all. And this is

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Speaker 1: what us who aren't in the king community are going

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Speaker 1: about our lives and like not realizing that there's an

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Speaker 1: alternative way to do it. That's cool anyway. I think

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Speaker 1: it's important.

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Speaker 2: It's not about shaming people who are doing it right

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Speaker 2: or oh.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, we want like that's great. We should all

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Speaker 1: be communicating more during sex and before sex and after sex.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's such a taboo topic. We don't really

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Speaker 1: talk about it. But I also think it's important to

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Speaker 1: acknowledge that, like, without those discussions, nothing is ever gonna

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Speaker 1: like culturally get better if you're just gonna get mad,

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Speaker 1: because right, yeah that makes sense. But so sorry if

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Speaker 1: I offended y'all. Wait before we start.

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Speaker 5: Alison Matt got three years in jail.

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Speaker 1: Three years. I don't ever know how to gauge what

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Speaker 1: like a fair amount of jail time is to be honest. Well,

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Speaker 1: you're not a judge, so that makes sense, But judges

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Speaker 1: don't either, They're just people. Yeah, like, what is justice? Sorry,

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Speaker 1: I'll hear a number of you. Is that a person

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Speaker 1: who was going to prison for? And I only understand

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Speaker 1: no prison or lifetime prison, and everything in the middle

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Speaker 1: just feels arbitrary. I don't know. Is that not enough?

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Speaker 1: Is that too much? What do you think?

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Speaker 2: I think it's probably not enough, just from listening to

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Speaker 2: her victims who say they don't think it's fair.

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Speaker 1: Do we know how much they wanted?

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Speaker 5: I think the.

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Speaker 2: One I was reading was like she wanted maximum, which

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Speaker 2: I believe was ten years.

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Speaker 1: Okay, ten years would have made sense, I guess. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So I don't understand prison in general. I guess. So

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Speaker 1: it's hard for me to wrap my head around. But

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Speaker 1: I'm glad she is facing consequences. She harmed a lot

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Speaker 1: of people. I thought that what the judge said was interesting.

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Speaker 1: Do you remember what he said or.

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Speaker 2: He said something about how like he knows that she

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Speaker 2: hurt a lot of people, but he doesn't doubt that

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Speaker 2: she also was under the influence of being her and manipulated.

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Speaker 1: It is so hard in cases like these because like

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Speaker 1: you don't really know where the line is and you

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Speaker 1: just have to something has to be done about the

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Speaker 1: harm that they've caused, even if they were brainwashed, Like

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Speaker 1: something must be done. They must see a consequence. So

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Speaker 1: that's interesting though, because the thing is most people don't

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Speaker 1: serve their full sentences anyway, right, so it probably right she's.

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Speaker 5: Going to really see the inside of anything.

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Speaker 1: Yeah that's really interesting.

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Speaker 5: Yeah it sucks, but.

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Speaker 1: Well I'm glad she's going to jail. Yeah right, that's

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Speaker 1: the upside. But yeah, I uh well, we fully support

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Speaker 1: India and all the rest of her victims and send

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Speaker 1: love to y'all.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, you know.

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Speaker 1: Also, last week, did I say that Alison Mack was

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Speaker 1: the one who was all on my Twitter? Because that's

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Speaker 1: not what I meant. That was a I misspoke. I

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Speaker 1: met Nikki Klein, oh, her wife, her wife, and I

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Speaker 1: didn't mean all up on my Twitter. But she faved

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Speaker 1: one of my tweets, and she paved one of my

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Speaker 1: mom's tweets, and she paged and that her guy I

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Speaker 1: knows tweets who she knows, Uh, Niki Klein, not Alison Mac.

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Speaker 1: That's weird. I need to stop just saying stuff. Cool?

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Speaker 2: Cool?

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Speaker 1: What if I just stopped talking?

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Speaker 2: Not the podcast anyone wants to listen to.

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Speaker 1: I don't know, it sounds soothing to me.

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Speaker 5: Was breathing episode thirty eight.

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Speaker 1: Honestly, I fox with that all right? Anyway, shut up, Lola.

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Speaker 1: So let's begin our interview with the wonderful, fascinating wit.

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Speaker 4: Shall we welcome White Richards to the show.

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Speaker 1: Nice to see you in person. Yes, our first in

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Speaker 1: person guest in like a year, two years or.

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Speaker 3: Something, Is that true? I'm really the first one.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we have like our first few we did, but

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Speaker 1: then you know, they didn't come out for a long time,

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Speaker 1: so it's been a long time.

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Speaker 3: Wow.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, after COVID.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, you're first after COVID guests.

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Speaker 1: Very exciting.

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Speaker 3: I am happy to be back in that realm of

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Speaker 3: no masks and just kind of seeing people's faces.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, it's cool.

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Speaker 1: We're back, we're vaxed, we've got no masks. Doing great.

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Speaker 1: Your story is so fascinating, I mean, because, oh my god,

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Speaker 1: there's so many layers to it. Okay, the start us

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Speaker 1: at the beginnings as a good place to are generally.

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Speaker 1: So you're born in Pennsylvania, correct, Yeah, I'm one of

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Speaker 1: six kids number four.

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Speaker 3: I guess they always say that middle kids always looking

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Speaker 3: for his identity. But every summer we would go up

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Speaker 3: to Nantucket. I love Nantucket, Oh do you Okay? So

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Speaker 3: I love it, And I think if you could put

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Speaker 3: one word to describe Nantucket besides it being kind of

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Speaker 3: waspy and preppy and all that stuff, is safe, right.

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Speaker 3: I mean, it's a small little island. When you were

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Speaker 3: eight or ten years old, your parents have no problem

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Speaker 3: letting you run wild through the town because there's only

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Speaker 3: one town, right, So as a kid, you have vast independence.

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Speaker 3: And I just said, I mean for my family, which

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Speaker 3: is I love my family. And we were a large family,

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Speaker 3: and my cousins who lived two doors down they had

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Speaker 3: four kids, So I basically grew up in a family

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Speaker 3: at ten all like toe head blondes. We all ended

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Speaker 3: up on the Nantucket. We be blonde at the Yaucht Club,

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Speaker 3: and we did the sailing at the tennis and the

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Speaker 3: whole water and so all of that was our highlight

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Speaker 3: of the summer and something that I always remember as

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Speaker 3: being the best times of the family, so to speak. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: so at sixteen, when this individual puts a towel down

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Speaker 3: next to mine, and my life took a tangent that

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Speaker 3: I would have never imagined. I would not have thought

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Speaker 3: that would have happened on Nantucket.

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Speaker 1: Tell us about this guy, You're sixteen years old.

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Speaker 5: Do you think he saw you and was like, I'm

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Speaker 5: going to sit by him.

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Speaker 3: I don't know, because because he had kind of been

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Speaker 3: vetted by my peer group at that point. Okay, so

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Speaker 3: i'd heard of him. His real name was Freddie Myers.

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Speaker 3: When I met him, he was Frederick von Meers.

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Speaker 1: Ah Megan Vonalisam, that's.

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Speaker 3: One of his friends at the time, said somewhere on

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Speaker 3: the ferry ride over the Nantucket he dropped the Brooklyn

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Speaker 3: Jewish background and became a wasp from Dutch heritage and

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Speaker 3: all sort of stuff. So I've tried to psychoanalyze it

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Speaker 3: with the limited information I've found that I'm actually finding

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Speaker 3: more information now. But he was born I think, to

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Speaker 3: an unwed mom at sixteen. The mother had another daughter,

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Speaker 3: which I just found this out, and then I think

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Speaker 3: had two other daughters with another man. And he basically,

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Speaker 3: as far as I've been told, has worked very hard

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Speaker 3: to distance himself from that history that he grew up with.

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Speaker 3: He developed a new kind of accent. He created the

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Speaker 3: new name. You would call it kind of an attachment disorder,

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Speaker 3: I think is the proper term. Someone who's been wounded

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Speaker 3: by either abandonment or abuse at a young age and

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Speaker 3: is seeking out some sort of situation where they never

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Speaker 3: have to be hurt again, so they kind of foster

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Speaker 3: code of penna relationships. One of the interesting things about

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Speaker 3: my story is I basically got in on the ground

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Speaker 3: floor of a startup that was so it wasn't a

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Speaker 3: cult yet. You know, when I met him, he was

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Speaker 3: just spending his summers on Nantucket, and he had met

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Speaker 3: my friends, and he had the reputation of being kind

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Speaker 3: of a throwback through the sixties. What year is this like,

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Speaker 3: nineteen seventy eight? Okay, because it's important, yet it's important

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Speaker 3: to set the context of when these stories happened. It's

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Speaker 3: one of the things I've realized in telling my sort

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Speaker 3: a few thousand times that if you don't kind of

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Speaker 3: set the world that was going on at the time,

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Speaker 3: and there's a real pushback against traditional religions and people

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Speaker 3: are looking in the new alternative approaches. So this guy

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Speaker 3: was into Eastern philosophy, kind of ancient civilizations, astrology. He

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Speaker 3: mainly focused on the Hindu Vedas, which are amazing scriptures.

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Speaker 3: And I'm sure as you guys both know that most

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Speaker 3: of the information you initially get introduced to is valid.

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Speaker 3: And I think that's one of the hardest things to

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Speaker 3: discern as you go through trying to figure things out,

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Speaker 3: because a lot of the information you had was absolutely true,

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Speaker 3: and maybe the interpretation of it or certainly how the

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Speaker 3: behavior that you experience in the group is vastly different

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Speaker 3: than what is maybe on the page, but at that point,

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Speaker 3: certainly early on, you don't necessarily figure that out, and

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Speaker 3: if you question it, you're being told because you're looking

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Speaker 3: at it wrong, not because that's actually what's happening. Basically,

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Speaker 3: I meet this guy and my friends had said, yeah,

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Speaker 3: he was just someone who's kind of fun but far

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Speaker 3: out and just you know, not to really take with

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Speaker 3: more than a grain of salt. So he sits down

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Speaker 3: next to me and he starts talking about Eastern philosophy

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Speaker 3: and ying and yang and making designs.

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Speaker 6: In the sand and oh, just from the beginning, he's

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Speaker 6: like jumping right in, right in, right in, And I

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Speaker 6: remember because I'm sixteen and he was probably mid thirties

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Speaker 6: at that point, and I really appreciated the fact that he.

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Speaker 3: Was speaking to me like an adult, and he was

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Speaker 3: also making the clear assumption that I understood what he

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Speaker 3: was talking about, which for the most part, I didn't.

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Speaker 3: But he would frame it by saying, you're very smart too,

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Speaker 3: you'll understand this, which is a great manipulation, right, because

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Speaker 3: then you feel really awkward to say, I don't know

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Speaker 3: what you're talking about, right.

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Speaker 5: I'm actually not really smart, not at all.

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Speaker 3: But he's very likable, very charismatic, as a lot of

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Speaker 3: these people are, of course, and it was not like

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Speaker 3: a full court press by any standard. It was more

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Speaker 3: about he was very social, and he invited me to

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Speaker 3: these parties that he would have. Now sixteen, the drinking

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Speaker 3: age in Nantucket was eighteen, so of course I was

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Speaker 3: already drinking, and I just saw this as an opportunity

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Speaker 3: to get free beer. Apparently he was having these quite

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Speaker 3: frequent parties at his place. It was on India Street.

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Speaker 3: I love you Nantack well, but it's right in town,

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Speaker 3: and I went there, you know, just occasionally, because he

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Speaker 3: would have these parties and I would get free I

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Speaker 3: could bring my friends and we would have beer. And

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Speaker 3: there was like people from sixteen to eighty. And I've

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Speaker 3: since come to know that he was known for these parties.

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Speaker 3: He was very much in this party mode and so

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Speaker 3: when I met him, basically it was like a narcissist

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Speaker 3: with a entourage. That's what was going on.

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Speaker 1: So was he like a Gatsby kind of figure, Like

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Speaker 1: is it glamorous?

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Speaker 3: Well, he had been a model, so he's a good

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Speaker 3: looking guy. Now this I did not know, but I

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Speaker 3: found out from his friends who knew him before I did,

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Speaker 3: because he'd been doing these parties for a long time

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Speaker 3: on Nantucket and he would actually run the way he

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Speaker 3: had it set up. He would rent this house and

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Speaker 3: then he'd invite his friends and they would all have

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Speaker 3: to pay, and he would not have to pay for it,

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Speaker 3: so he would just have enough friends to come pay

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Speaker 3: for the house, and then he'd run it like a ship.

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Speaker 3: Like you had to be up early, clean everything that

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Speaker 3: had happened from the night before, restock the bar, clean

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Speaker 3: the you know, the entire house, and get ready for

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Speaker 3: the party. Because Litty he was having a party almost

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Speaker 3: every night.

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Speaker 1: So he's got like these party servants who are just.

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Speaker 3: Kind of well, they're guests but they're you know, they're

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Speaker 3: all into the party mode. And but if you were

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Speaker 3: going to be a guest, you had to kind of

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Speaker 3: play by the rules that he and he would give

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Speaker 3: them cards that would have the address of the house

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Speaker 3: and then he'd give them the instructions. Only the beauties.

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Speaker 3: Only the beauties, ahow, and not their friends. Oh yeah wow.

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Speaker 3: So that was kind of his modus operendum. So that

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Speaker 3: was the I met him when I was sixteen. I

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Speaker 3: would see him during the summers, and it was never

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Speaker 3: had he had his ephemerist, which is the thing that

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Speaker 3: astrologers used, are going to read where you came from,

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Speaker 3: and did all that, and so that would be kind

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Speaker 3: of his party trick. He'd say, when's your birthday and

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Speaker 3: you kind of and then you'd look in the effemirs

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Speaker 3: and kind of do like a quick horoscope on you.

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Speaker 3: And that was kind of something that a lot of

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Speaker 3: people loved. And I remember for me specifically, that he

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Speaker 3: seemed to be doing that with my friends and not

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Speaker 3: doing it doing my chart, and I felt really jilted

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Speaker 3: at first and really like, well, what's he going to

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Speaker 3: do mine? And I don't know if that was a

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Speaker 3: conscious technique or not.

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Speaker 5: It sounds like it, but the way.

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Speaker 3: It played out was I just saw him as an

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Speaker 3: eccentric person I would see during the summer and I

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Speaker 3: never felt like a full court press from him or

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Speaker 3: any recruitment per se. It was until I got back.

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Speaker 3: I studied for a year in England before I decided

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Speaker 3: to go to.

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Speaker 1: College, which was Princeton. Which was Princeton pretty fancy.

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Speaker 3: Well, everyone in my family was going to very good school,

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Speaker 3: so it's just trying to keep up with the Joneses.

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Speaker 3: My brothers and sisters are all great students, and it's

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Speaker 3: just kind of something my parents put high expectations on,

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Speaker 3: so I didn't want to let them down. I loved Princeton,

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Speaker 3: But when he knew I was going to be in

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Speaker 3: Jersey and not that far from Manhattan, which was his home,

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Speaker 3: that's when he said, oh, well you should come up

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Speaker 3: and bring some friends. And at this point I didn't

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Speaker 3: really know he had a full entourage. I met his

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Speaker 3: friends at these parties, but I didn't really know until

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Speaker 3: I went to New York to see him that he

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Speaker 3: had literally this group that he would hang out with.

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Speaker 3: And the big hook was we go to Studio fifty four,

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Speaker 3: you know. So at this point, I'm like eighteen nineteen,

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Speaker 3: and my perception at that time was I was working him. Now,

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Speaker 3: I knew he was very effeminate and gay, but he

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Speaker 3: never was hitting on me, and so I never felt

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Speaker 3: like that was happening. But I knew he kind of

436
00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:12,280
Speaker 3: liked me in that sense, not like sexually, but just

437
00:21:12,359 --> 00:21:16,000
Speaker 3: kind of found me appealing. And so I literally remember

438
00:21:16,040 --> 00:21:18,720
Speaker 3: having a very conscious thought pattern of like, oh, I

439
00:21:18,720 --> 00:21:20,720
Speaker 3: can kind of work this to my benefit my friends,

440
00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:22,320
Speaker 3: and we can get in Studio fifty four, which is

441
00:21:22,359 --> 00:21:24,679
Speaker 3: exactly how it worked out. I'd go up there for

442
00:21:25,280 --> 00:21:28,080
Speaker 3: a couple nights and we'd go to Student for both nights.

443
00:21:27,800 --> 00:21:28,680
Speaker 5: And then it's so fun.

444
00:21:28,760 --> 00:21:32,280
Speaker 1: Wait, so for the kids, can you tell what Studio

445
00:21:32,280 --> 00:21:32,800
Speaker 1: fifty four was?

446
00:21:32,880 --> 00:21:37,800
Speaker 3: So Studio fifty four was the next level of a nightclub.

447
00:21:37,920 --> 00:21:41,000
Speaker 3: I mean it was during the disco age, but walking

448
00:21:41,040 --> 00:21:45,320
Speaker 3: in the studio it was literally like it had a pulse.

449
00:21:45,400 --> 00:21:47,439
Speaker 3: I mean it was originally set up, I think, to

450
00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:50,280
Speaker 3: be a theater, and so they had all these kind

451
00:21:50,320 --> 00:21:53,080
Speaker 3: of theatrical lightings, but they would have special shows and

452
00:21:53,119 --> 00:21:56,200
Speaker 3: they have had dancers. I mean my first time walking in,

453
00:21:57,320 --> 00:21:59,760
Speaker 3: I was greeted by this girl wearing nothing but scotch tape.

454
00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:03,639
Speaker 3: She had like a little bra top and little panties,

455
00:22:04,160 --> 00:22:06,480
Speaker 3: and I thought, my god, I never want to leave,

456
00:22:07,080 --> 00:22:08,960
Speaker 3: Like this is just the best.

457
00:22:09,080 --> 00:22:10,480
Speaker 1: I mean, And the people who would go there, I

458
00:22:10,560 --> 00:22:12,240
Speaker 1: mean I think of Andy Warhol.

459
00:22:11,960 --> 00:22:14,440
Speaker 3: First and foremost met and got to know.

460
00:22:14,560 --> 00:22:16,280
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm looking at the list of people who

461
00:22:16,280 --> 00:22:16,840
Speaker 1: would freak.

462
00:22:18,840 --> 00:22:20,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, the most, Elton John.

463
00:22:20,600 --> 00:22:23,960
Speaker 3: I am Elton John later. But I did see Liza

464
00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:26,280
Speaker 3: Minelli there. I mean, everybody was there. Yeah.

465
00:22:26,320 --> 00:22:27,960
Speaker 1: It was like the place to be.

466
00:22:28,119 --> 00:22:30,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, it was the place. And I actually only caught

467
00:22:30,320 --> 00:22:33,480
Speaker 3: the second wave. The first wave in the late seventies

468
00:22:33,560 --> 00:22:35,760
Speaker 3: was when it really kind of was off the hook.

469
00:22:35,800 --> 00:22:39,680
Speaker 3: And then they got arrested for having you know, letty

470
00:22:39,720 --> 00:22:42,959
Speaker 3: garbage cans full of cash dashed old god, and it

471
00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:45,640
Speaker 3: was I mean, I mean, drugs were just freely flowing.

472
00:22:45,960 --> 00:22:48,359
Speaker 3: I mean sometimes you see people literally having sex on

473
00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:52,200
Speaker 3: the dance floor. Sure certainly in the rafters. And there

474
00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:54,760
Speaker 3: was this one little rafters. Yeah. Well they had these

475
00:22:54,840 --> 00:22:58,400
Speaker 3: kind of kind of like very wide seats that were

476
00:22:58,480 --> 00:22:59,639
Speaker 3: kind of semi.

477
00:22:59,720 --> 00:23:02,080
Speaker 5: Like, yeah, you're just asking for side.

478
00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:06,199
Speaker 3: It was all very communion. And then they had a

479
00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:09,160
Speaker 3: downstairs area where it was kind of the VIP celebrity thing,

480
00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:12,200
Speaker 3: and that's where people were just openly just doing lots

481
00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:16,040
Speaker 3: of blow and things. And yeah, so I had several

482
00:23:16,119 --> 00:23:20,840
Speaker 3: adventures in there, and coming from a very kind of conservative,

483
00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:24,600
Speaker 3: waspy background, this was just like Alison Wonderlany, I'm walking

484
00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:27,040
Speaker 3: through the looking glass and this is this whole new thing.

485
00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:32,040
Speaker 3: So that's why as it played out, I was no

486
00:23:32,119 --> 00:23:34,160
Speaker 3: way thinking I was getting involved in the cult, because

487
00:23:34,160 --> 00:23:35,640
Speaker 3: I mean, I'm you know, I'm going a stud event

488
00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:38,880
Speaker 3: for now. What we would do, which was a little

489
00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:41,440
Speaker 3: bit out of the ordinary, is he was always kind

490
00:23:41,440 --> 00:23:43,399
Speaker 3: of targeting people, but he would do it from the

491
00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:46,720
Speaker 3: point of view of, oh, that girl's fabulous, you should

492
00:23:46,760 --> 00:23:49,440
Speaker 3: be with her. And he was great at introducing to people.

493
00:23:49,480 --> 00:23:52,520
Speaker 3: And then we would kind of make half a dozen

494
00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:54,159
Speaker 3: people that night, and then we'd go back to the

495
00:23:54,200 --> 00:23:57,320
Speaker 3: apartment and we would have high tea as he would

496
00:23:57,320 --> 00:23:59,640
Speaker 3: call it, at like six in the morning and talk

497
00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:01,760
Speaker 3: about all these spiritual ideas.

498
00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:02,760
Speaker 5: That sounds like heaven.

499
00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:04,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, it was great, and it wasn't like we were

500
00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:07,800
Speaker 3: taking drugs and it wasn't like we were heavily drinking.

501
00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:11,440
Speaker 3: It was much more this kind of spiritual thing, this

502
00:24:11,560 --> 00:24:14,199
Speaker 3: kind of thing that was evolving. Again, this is the

503
00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:16,520
Speaker 3: early eighties, and this is really when all that stuff

504
00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:19,280
Speaker 3: like New Age movement was just starting to kind of birth.

505
00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:22,320
Speaker 3: He was like an early inventor with health food. You know,

506
00:24:22,359 --> 00:24:24,000
Speaker 3: I didn't even know what a health food store was

507
00:24:24,080 --> 00:24:27,400
Speaker 3: until I met Freddie. And I specifically call him Freddy

508
00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:31,320
Speaker 3: because he always wanted to be called Frederick. I know

509
00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:37,840
Speaker 3: he would cringe. It's always fright Now to me, it's

510
00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:41,399
Speaker 3: very very fulfilling, and so yeah, that was really what

511
00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:44,199
Speaker 3: it was about at first. It's just opportunities to go

512
00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:46,200
Speaker 3: to New York hang out with some people that seemed

513
00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:48,760
Speaker 3: to be in things that most of my friends weren't

514
00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:51,919
Speaker 3: really investigating. I was never a religious I always had

515
00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:55,320
Speaker 3: a belief in God, but I never really felt devout

516
00:24:55,359 --> 00:24:59,280
Speaker 3: in any way. But I had a very strong sense

517
00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:02,280
Speaker 3: of awareness, and I've thought there's a certain level of

518
00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:05,359
Speaker 3: decency that way people should respect and treat each other.

519
00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:08,720
Speaker 3: And a lot of the Eastern philosophy kind of resonated

520
00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:12,720
Speaker 3: with that. Because my Christian upbringing, my impression was going

521
00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:16,080
Speaker 3: to church and hearing someone talk a lot about stuff

522
00:25:16,119 --> 00:25:18,720
Speaker 3: that I was not interested in, and then passing around

523
00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:22,760
Speaker 3: this thing with the money and then your slate's been

524
00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:25,480
Speaker 3: made clean, and then just come back next week do

525
00:25:25,520 --> 00:25:27,720
Speaker 3: whatever you want, but you know, slate clean, slate for

526
00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:30,280
Speaker 3: the week coming up. And I was like, that did

527
00:25:30,320 --> 00:25:32,240
Speaker 3: not work for me. I felt there should be a

528
00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:35,520
Speaker 3: sense of accountability. So when I got exposed to Eastern

529
00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:38,520
Speaker 3: philosophy and karma and that sort of thing, I'm like, oh,

530
00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:40,399
Speaker 3: that makes a lot more sense to me that you

531
00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:43,480
Speaker 3: actually need to be accountable for your actions and for

532
00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:46,280
Speaker 3: each reaction there's an equal and opposite reaction, And that

533
00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:49,360
Speaker 3: really kind of resonated with me. And the idea of reincarnation.

534
00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:52,280
Speaker 3: You know that you don't have just one shot. So

535
00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:55,160
Speaker 3: someone's born into a wealthy family, someone's born on the street,

536
00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:59,479
Speaker 3: someone's crippled, someone's blind, and someone's a billionaire at birth.

537
00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:02,280
Speaker 3: I'm like, well, that doesn't seem very fair. So the

538
00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:05,600
Speaker 3: fact that you have potentially multiple lifetimes, that all really

539
00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:06,399
Speaker 3: resonated with me.

540
00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:09,800
Speaker 1: And when a message resonates like that and you don't

541
00:26:09,880 --> 00:26:13,560
Speaker 1: necessarily have exposure to other sources of a similar message,

542
00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:16,680
Speaker 1: it's hard to reject the person who is conveying that message.

543
00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:18,840
Speaker 3: To you, Yeah, exactly, And I try to relate it

544
00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:21,440
Speaker 3: to people that if you don't have a game plan

545
00:26:21,520 --> 00:26:24,200
Speaker 3: and you feel like you should and listen, I'm sixteen,

546
00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:27,320
Speaker 3: then eighteen. It's not like I needed to have one,

547
00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:29,199
Speaker 3: but I did feel like I should have one, Like

548
00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:32,200
Speaker 3: from the point of view that I seem to be delta,

549
00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:34,760
Speaker 3: pretty winning hand. I was capable of school, I was

550
00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:37,840
Speaker 3: a good athlete, I made friends easily. My parents gave

551
00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:40,679
Speaker 3: me a nice genetic package that people seem to appreciate.

552
00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:45,720
Speaker 3: So it's nice, Well, no.

553
00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:47,639
Speaker 1: He's a handsome fellow guys.

554
00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:50,200
Speaker 5: First male supermodel.

555
00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:52,960
Speaker 3: Well I just I tell people I can't take credit

556
00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:55,320
Speaker 3: for the costume. I just wear it. My parents get

557
00:26:55,359 --> 00:26:57,680
Speaker 3: all the credit. So all of that, a lot of

558
00:26:57,720 --> 00:26:59,960
Speaker 3: people would think, oh, well, you would be so secure then,

559
00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:02,640
Speaker 3: And I was massively insecure because I'm like, I had

560
00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:05,920
Speaker 3: no passion, nothing that I really got me terribly excited

561
00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:09,919
Speaker 3: about other than football, and I knew realistically that I

562
00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:12,720
Speaker 3: couldn't continue playing that for long. And that actually ended

563
00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:16,000
Speaker 3: up being the critical factor that got me more involved

564
00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:18,680
Speaker 3: with the group. Was I was playing football at Princeton

565
00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:21,639
Speaker 3: and doing it okay, not setting the world on fire.

566
00:27:22,119 --> 00:27:24,640
Speaker 3: But all my friends were football players, and that had

567
00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:26,919
Speaker 3: been so much a self identity. And then I started

568
00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:30,679
Speaker 3: really having problems with my shoulders and it looked like

569
00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:34,119
Speaker 3: I may have to either have an operation or consider stopping.

570
00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:36,800
Speaker 3: And that's where I went up to New York to

571
00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:40,320
Speaker 3: see a shoulder specialist, because the trainer at Princeton basically said,

572
00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:42,959
Speaker 3: I think you need to stop because my shoulders were

573
00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:45,960
Speaker 3: partially disocating. I had done gymnastics when I was younger,

574
00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:49,159
Speaker 3: and so i'd stretched the league and it's doing the rings.

575
00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:52,399
Speaker 3: And then I'd always played offense and been receiver or

576
00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:54,480
Speaker 3: running back. But they switched me to the defense, and

577
00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:57,119
Speaker 3: the tackling was just tearing my shoulders apart, because my

578
00:27:57,160 --> 00:27:59,600
Speaker 3: shoulders would just I could show you, but the second

579
00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:01,080
Speaker 3: just okay, at my shoulders like that.

580
00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:04,119
Speaker 2: Oh, I'm betting that's not good for us.

581
00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:07,440
Speaker 3: So I actually went up to New York to get

582
00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:10,640
Speaker 3: a second opinion. I found out that really they could operate,

583
00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:14,320
Speaker 3: but they couldn't guarantee me full mobility, meaning that I

584
00:28:14,320 --> 00:28:17,000
Speaker 3: wouldn't be able to necessarily reach my hand only over

585
00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:19,160
Speaker 3: my head. And I said, I can't play the position

586
00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:22,199
Speaker 3: if I can't if I can reach there. So I

587
00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:25,560
Speaker 3: went through really an identity crisis. And that was when

588
00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:29,040
Speaker 3: Freddy kind of said, well, this is why you should

589
00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:32,000
Speaker 3: come to New York and you should start modeling and acting,

590
00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:34,000
Speaker 3: and you've got these opportunities. And he had been a

591
00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:37,880
Speaker 3: model and he knew the guy who ran Ford Models,

592
00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:41,680
Speaker 3: and so that was kind of my entry point. Now,

593
00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:44,200
Speaker 3: the story's a little convolute that you don't have to

594
00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:47,720
Speaker 3: get into. So it didn't immediately work, but eventually it did.

595
00:28:48,280 --> 00:28:51,440
Speaker 3: And at first I was told I was too blonde,

596
00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:53,880
Speaker 3: that was too big because I was playing football and

597
00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:55,760
Speaker 3: I never saw myself as a model. That's not how

598
00:28:55,800 --> 00:28:59,280
Speaker 3: I perceived myself to be. But eventually it did work

599
00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:02,800
Speaker 3: out and then it really took off. And because it

600
00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:05,880
Speaker 3: replaced football, it's kind of this decision of a twenty

601
00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:08,240
Speaker 3: one year old of like, well, if I can't be

602
00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:10,480
Speaker 3: a football star, maybe I'll just try to be a star.

603
00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:13,400
Speaker 3: Like that was literally where my ego could kind of

604
00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:15,880
Speaker 3: find some solace and it worked.

605
00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:19,480
Speaker 1: You were modeling with the biggest supermodels of the time, right, like,

606
00:29:19,520 --> 00:29:20,720
Speaker 1: can you drop some names for us?

607
00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:23,240
Speaker 3: I can because I came in. If you consider it

608
00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:26,920
Speaker 3: like an entry class, like you wore at university. I

609
00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:31,479
Speaker 3: came in with Cindy and Christy and Naomi and Claudia.

610
00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:36,000
Speaker 2: And Claudia almost obsessed.

611
00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:38,920
Speaker 1: Wow, I'm a Naomi girl. Actually, Christy, I'm a Christie girl.

612
00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:43,400
Speaker 3: Christie I met when she was fourteen at the Christmas party,

613
00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:47,040
Speaker 3: and she was just like an alien genetic marvel on,

614
00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:48,720
Speaker 3: Like this girl was so before.

615
00:29:48,520 --> 00:29:50,400
Speaker 5: Which Christy, is it Turlington or By?

616
00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:55,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, so Christy Turlie then was my generations. Brinkley was

617
00:29:55,440 --> 00:29:58,840
Speaker 3: like the generation before me. I remember looking at Christy

618
00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:01,480
Speaker 3: Brinkley and like Sports Illustrated, you know, when I was

619
00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:02,240
Speaker 3: a teenager.

620
00:30:02,800 --> 00:30:03,040
Speaker 2: Yeah.

621
00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:05,840
Speaker 3: And actually my second modeling job was with Kathy Ireland,

622
00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:09,240
Speaker 3: and I totally had a crush on to Kathy Ireland.

623
00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:13,160
Speaker 3: Literally was in awe. And then she had this squeaky,

624
00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:15,800
Speaker 3: tiny little voice that I didn't have the heart to

625
00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:18,760
Speaker 3: tell my friends, like it was not the voice I expected.

626
00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:23,120
Speaker 3: She since corrected her voice, and good for her, but

627
00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:25,080
Speaker 3: it was really disappointing.

628
00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:27,440
Speaker 1: This kind of I find out all the time when

629
00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:30,800
Speaker 1: I meet like hot girls on Instagram in person, I'm like, whoa,

630
00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:31,920
Speaker 1: that's how you talk.

631
00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:35,560
Speaker 3: Yeah. That was the point when I started to come

632
00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:37,880
Speaker 3: into New York a lot more to pursue the modeling,

633
00:30:38,320 --> 00:30:40,800
Speaker 3: and that's kind of when the hooks went in, and

634
00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:43,400
Speaker 3: that's where I started to really kind of be indoctrinated.

635
00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:47,000
Speaker 2: So at this point online I read that he was

636
00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:49,640
Speaker 2: from a star called Arturi.

637
00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:51,640
Speaker 5: Did you know this from the start?

638
00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:54,280
Speaker 3: No? Okay, Yeah, I think that's an important part of

639
00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:56,440
Speaker 3: the story from the point of view that those type

640
00:30:56,440 --> 00:30:59,520
Speaker 3: of things don't come out like in the opening conversation.

641
00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:01,920
Speaker 3: That's not the pitch, right, because then you'd be like

642
00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:06,040
Speaker 3: this guy, yeah, you're crazy, Yeah exactly. So that information

643
00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:08,880
Speaker 3: gets revealed as you move up the food chain. So

644
00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:12,720
Speaker 3: because he was into astrology, the premise he would make,

645
00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:17,080
Speaker 3: which listen is not far fetched, was the idea that, sure,

646
00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:20,400
Speaker 3: you incarnate here on Earth, but you also incarnate all

647
00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:24,600
Speaker 3: over the universe. Here, Freddy said, the place that he

648
00:31:24,720 --> 00:31:28,200
Speaker 3: considered home just happened to be the spiritual center of

649
00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:29,280
Speaker 3: the universe.

650
00:31:34,080 --> 00:31:34,520
Speaker 5: On Earth.

651
00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:41,520
Speaker 3: So the idea was supposedly, he came back to Earth

652
00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:46,160
Speaker 3: to find the fellow Auctorians. So the whole premise was

653
00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:49,440
Speaker 3: that back on Octurius, when we were there on one

654
00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:51,920
Speaker 3: of our lucky incarnations, were at the spiritual center of

655
00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:56,600
Speaker 3: the universe, we all got into a huddle and looked

656
00:31:56,640 --> 00:31:58,520
Speaker 3: at Earth and said, oh, Earth's having all sorts of problems.

657
00:31:58,520 --> 00:32:00,880
Speaker 3: We got to go down there help out. And the

658
00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:02,640
Speaker 3: idea was, all right, we're all going to kind of

659
00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:05,719
Speaker 3: sacrifice and go down and help about things that are Oh,

660
00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:10,600
Speaker 3: it's going through this terrible period. And unfortunately none of

661
00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:13,440
Speaker 3: us are going to remember this conversation except for Freddy.

662
00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:16,800
Speaker 3: He's going to go back and find us and remind

663
00:32:16,880 --> 00:32:17,880
Speaker 3: us why we're really here.

664
00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:19,440
Speaker 1: Thank goodness, get.

665
00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:24,040
Speaker 3: Good And so as outrageous as the story as that sounds,

666
00:32:24,280 --> 00:32:29,080
Speaker 3: because it was kind of the common urban legend that

667
00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:31,160
Speaker 3: was kind of going on in the group at that point.

668
00:32:31,600 --> 00:32:34,240
Speaker 3: When it got revealed to me, all I wanted to

669
00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:36,239
Speaker 3: do is know whether I was Aucturnan or not. So

670
00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:39,480
Speaker 3: that became this kind of carrot that was dangling will

671
00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:42,560
Speaker 3: I because at certain points he would finally turn to

672
00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:45,080
Speaker 3: someone and say, oh, yes, and you are Actorian as well.

673
00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:47,160
Speaker 3: That was a big day.

674
00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:48,840
Speaker 1: So when you say it was an urban legend in

675
00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:50,880
Speaker 1: the group, people were talking about it.

676
00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:54,240
Speaker 6: It was like a rumor, Yeah, from another planet, Yeah exactly.

677
00:32:54,360 --> 00:32:58,000
Speaker 3: But it was a starry It was a star where

678
00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:02,720
Speaker 3: we were we were light bodies, like like like l

679
00:33:04,520 --> 00:33:09,080
Speaker 3: who So it's like it's like you lak the crystal. No, okay,

680
00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:12,800
Speaker 3: well you're not missing too much very expensive crystal. And

681
00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:14,800
Speaker 3: he would know about that because he was all into

682
00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:18,560
Speaker 3: the social register and that sort of thing, and he

683
00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:21,080
Speaker 3: was really into high society. Again, going back to what

684
00:33:21,120 --> 00:33:24,320
Speaker 3: I said earlier, trying to distance himself from his original roots,

685
00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:27,520
Speaker 3: he presented this whole he knew duke, this person, duchess,

686
00:33:27,520 --> 00:33:30,800
Speaker 3: that one prince, that one prince did he apparently it's

687
00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:33,080
Speaker 3: very hard for me to look back into now and

688
00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:36,080
Speaker 3: trust anything that came out of his mouth. But when

689
00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:39,960
Speaker 3: you've reached a level of pathology like this guy had,

690
00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:43,200
Speaker 3: I don't think you can separate truth from fiction because

691
00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:45,920
Speaker 3: I think he loses touch. Oh for sure, Because one

692
00:33:45,960 --> 00:33:48,440
Speaker 3: of the most common questions I get all the time,

693
00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:50,520
Speaker 3: and I'm sure you guys get it from your stories,

694
00:33:50,560 --> 00:33:52,160
Speaker 3: it's like, oh, it was the cult leader in on

695
00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:52,920
Speaker 3: the con so to.

696
00:33:52,840 --> 00:33:54,720
Speaker 5: Speak, didn't really think he was in?

697
00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:58,440
Speaker 3: Yeah? Yeah, And I can only say I think like

698
00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:02,120
Speaker 3: a serial killer who starts to operate out of a

699
00:34:02,120 --> 00:34:04,560
Speaker 3: certain kind of pathology and gets better at it as

700
00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:07,800
Speaker 3: they do it. When you're a master manipulator. In lying

701
00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:10,799
Speaker 3: becomes kind of the way that you reinvent yourself. I

702
00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:14,160
Speaker 3: think you kind of lose track of it, and certainly,

703
00:34:14,200 --> 00:34:17,760
Speaker 3: as things continue to work on people, you start to wonder,

704
00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:18,319
Speaker 3: maybe if.

705
00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:21,000
Speaker 5: I say it, it is true, right, I love that.

706
00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:23,680
Speaker 3: And the guests you can't get inside someone else's head.

707
00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:26,719
Speaker 3: But certainly, living with him like I did for five years,

708
00:34:26,760 --> 00:34:29,680
Speaker 3: I didn't really catch him slipping up in that sense.

709
00:34:29,840 --> 00:34:32,719
Speaker 3: I certainly caught him doing plenty of things, Like there

710
00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:34,920
Speaker 3: was one time when he was trying to recruit my

711
00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:37,799
Speaker 3: younger brother and I was on the phone with him

712
00:34:38,239 --> 00:34:41,279
Speaker 3: and my mother was eavesdropping. And at this point my

713
00:34:41,680 --> 00:34:44,320
Speaker 3: mother had identified that I'd been in a call that

714
00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:46,239
Speaker 3: said this guy is dangerous, and so I was really

715
00:34:46,440 --> 00:34:48,960
Speaker 3: pulling away from the family at that point, but she

716
00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:51,960
Speaker 3: was easdropping, and she confronted him on the phone. She's like,

717
00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:54,319
Speaker 3: get off the phone. I can't believe you're talking. And

718
00:34:54,560 --> 00:34:57,080
Speaker 3: he who for years have been saying, You've got to

719
00:34:57,120 --> 00:34:59,359
Speaker 3: confront your mother. She's so evil on this and that

720
00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:03,160
Speaker 3: he he freaks out and scattered, Yeah, just liddy panics

721
00:35:03,200 --> 00:35:05,320
Speaker 3: and hands me the phones, goes, oh, she's so awful,

722
00:35:05,719 --> 00:35:08,840
Speaker 3: and I remember seeing him freak out and just suppressing

723
00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:11,960
Speaker 3: that because that didn't fit in the paradigm of the

724
00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:14,360
Speaker 3: guy who had everything figured out, was telling me what

725
00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:16,479
Speaker 3: to do all the time. Yeah. So there are plenty

726
00:35:16,520 --> 00:35:19,080
Speaker 3: of instances like that that I can go back to

727
00:35:19,719 --> 00:35:21,800
Speaker 3: and see the signs, But at the time I was

728
00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:25,920
Speaker 3: so enthralled, and I'm working on certain projects retelling this story,

729
00:35:25,960 --> 00:35:29,400
Speaker 3: and I've got certain footage. We had a cable access

730
00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:31,720
Speaker 3: show which was kind.

731
00:35:31,560 --> 00:35:34,040
Speaker 5: Of saying I would love to see it.

732
00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:38,120
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, and it's it's like twenty six hours of it. Wow,

733
00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:40,840
Speaker 3: there were even more. But when I went back and

734
00:35:40,880 --> 00:35:42,759
Speaker 3: looked at this footage and thinking, oh, this is going

735
00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:45,360
Speaker 3: to be a great way to kind of show his spiel,

736
00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:49,680
Speaker 3: so to speak. The most disarming and upsetting thing for

737
00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:53,640
Speaker 3: me was seeing him and just going, man, I wish

738
00:35:53,640 --> 00:35:55,600
Speaker 3: he was better because I just thought he was so

739
00:35:56,120 --> 00:35:59,439
Speaker 3: all about, you know, everything, and I just see how

740
00:35:59,520 --> 00:36:02,520
Speaker 3: full of shit is now, Like it's so obvious you.

741
00:36:02,480 --> 00:36:06,080
Speaker 1: Know my mom right, Yeah, our former cult leader, Prophet Guy.

742
00:36:06,400 --> 00:36:08,360
Speaker 1: He's on YouTube, which we've mentioned a few times on

743
00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:11,799
Speaker 1: the show, and it is disappointing. You're like, damn you

744
00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:16,280
Speaker 1: are just crazy. How are you so charismatic?

745
00:36:16,320 --> 00:36:20,200
Speaker 3: To me is yeah, no, it really, really really is

746
00:36:20,239 --> 00:36:22,880
Speaker 3: fascinating to kind of go through that, and I remember

747
00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:25,400
Speaker 3: just thinking, God, I just wish he was better. Then

748
00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:28,759
Speaker 3: they don't look so naive, but we all are. And

749
00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:30,759
Speaker 3: that's the thing. I mean. I had a girlfriend at

750
00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:33,960
Speaker 3: one time told me you just don't know until you know,

751
00:36:34,640 --> 00:36:36,120
Speaker 3: and at that time I'm like, Oh, what the fuck

752
00:36:36,160 --> 00:36:39,080
Speaker 3: does that mean? But it's a very profound statement from

753
00:36:39,080 --> 00:36:42,279
Speaker 3: the point of view that once you figure something out,

754
00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:46,040
Speaker 3: very often we want to reverse engineer and they say, oh,

755
00:36:46,040 --> 00:36:47,560
Speaker 3: I should have figured it out sooner, and just beat

756
00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:49,880
Speaker 3: ourselves up. But the truth is, you don't figure it

757
00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:52,120
Speaker 3: out who you figure it out. And once you do

758
00:36:52,280 --> 00:36:54,440
Speaker 3: know something, then you can operate with a new lens.

759
00:36:54,480 --> 00:36:57,520
Speaker 3: But until you get there, you can't beat yourself up

760
00:36:57,520 --> 00:36:59,640
Speaker 3: for not kind of connecting the dots.

761
00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:03,080
Speaker 1: Only have the information that we have. And before we

762
00:37:03,080 --> 00:37:06,520
Speaker 1: were recording, you were referring to this relationship with a

763
00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:09,440
Speaker 1: cult leader or a culture groups as a cultic relationship

764
00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:11,680
Speaker 1: that you're in and saying how all of us can

765
00:37:11,719 --> 00:37:14,759
Speaker 1: be in cultic relationships. Often they're just one on one.

766
00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:18,640
Speaker 1: I think the idea that you suppress information that doesn't

767
00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:21,359
Speaker 1: fit in with your idea of a person is something

768
00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:24,959
Speaker 1: that we all do all of the time, every time

769
00:37:25,000 --> 00:37:28,640
Speaker 1: we are dating somebody new and keeping our rose colored

770
00:37:28,640 --> 00:37:30,520
Speaker 1: glasses on because we don't want to believe that we

771
00:37:30,520 --> 00:37:31,799
Speaker 1: couldn't be compatible with that.

772
00:37:32,360 --> 00:37:32,560
Speaker 6: Yes.

773
00:37:33,880 --> 00:37:36,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's a fascinating thing. Is The way I

774
00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:41,160
Speaker 3: do like to frame it is to just say I

775
00:37:41,200 --> 00:37:44,080
Speaker 3: had a cultured relationship with a group, because I've done

776
00:37:44,160 --> 00:37:46,680
Speaker 3: the cult bomb many times in social situations like, well,

777
00:37:46,719 --> 00:37:48,040
Speaker 3: I was in a cult for twenty years and people

778
00:37:48,160 --> 00:37:52,920
Speaker 3: like what. And I initially I did that because I

779
00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:55,000
Speaker 3: wanted to be transparent. It's kind of like an alcoholically

780
00:37:55,040 --> 00:37:57,120
Speaker 3: finally wants to take ownership with this part of their lives,

781
00:37:57,239 --> 00:37:59,120
Speaker 3: you know. So that was part of it. And then

782
00:37:59,160 --> 00:38:01,400
Speaker 3: I also kind of got off on the shock value

783
00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:04,240
Speaker 3: of that, and I recognized that that was not really

784
00:38:04,239 --> 00:38:07,120
Speaker 3: helping the cause, so to speak, and it wasn't reflecting

785
00:38:07,160 --> 00:38:10,440
Speaker 3: well on me because I was kind of misrepresenting it

786
00:38:10,560 --> 00:38:13,239
Speaker 3: just to kind of throw someone off their balance. So

787
00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:15,360
Speaker 3: I felt that I was being so bold and brazen

788
00:38:15,520 --> 00:38:20,000
Speaker 3: to be so open and that I owned my story

789
00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:23,479
Speaker 3: and I tell you and I mean literally, I would

790
00:38:23,520 --> 00:38:27,399
Speaker 3: get into a cab and in New York and that's

791
00:38:27,440 --> 00:38:29,640
Speaker 3: how I need to go to forty second and third,

792
00:38:30,320 --> 00:38:32,279
Speaker 3: did I tell it was in a cult? Yeah? No,

793
00:38:32,360 --> 00:38:38,680
Speaker 3: really twenty years twenty year I mean it was like that.

794
00:38:38,760 --> 00:38:41,440
Speaker 3: It was this compulsion which you have with a lot

795
00:38:41,480 --> 00:38:43,960
Speaker 3: of addicts when they like they when you finally come clean.

796
00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:46,640
Speaker 3: Because I had been so dishonest to so many people

797
00:38:46,680 --> 00:38:49,000
Speaker 3: for so many years, I just wanted to be honest.

798
00:38:49,400 --> 00:38:52,360
Speaker 3: But I learned that that approach was not very effective,

799
00:38:52,880 --> 00:38:56,520
Speaker 3: because ultimately it was important for me to own this

800
00:38:56,640 --> 00:38:58,560
Speaker 3: part of my life but also do it in a

801
00:38:58,600 --> 00:39:02,400
Speaker 3: way where initially my impulse was I don't want anyone

802
00:39:02,400 --> 00:39:05,239
Speaker 3: to be uncomfortable or afraid to ask me about it,

803
00:39:05,239 --> 00:39:07,239
Speaker 3: because I don't want to be defined by this. But

804
00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:08,759
Speaker 3: I want you to be okay to talk about it

805
00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:11,560
Speaker 3: because I don't want you to feel uncomfortable that you're right, right,

806
00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:14,759
Speaker 3: And I rather you hear about it from my mouth

807
00:39:14,840 --> 00:39:17,560
Speaker 3: rather than going and googling my name later and going,

808
00:39:19,200 --> 00:39:21,120
Speaker 3: what's this that you were involved?

809
00:39:21,239 --> 00:39:21,479
Speaker 4: Right?

810
00:39:21,800 --> 00:39:22,759
Speaker 3: So I had.

811
00:39:22,719 --> 00:39:24,680
Speaker 1: Learned Yeah, yeah, I almost think it's a right of

812
00:39:24,760 --> 00:39:27,920
Speaker 1: passage to start saying it, like really bluntly like that.

813
00:39:28,160 --> 00:39:30,440
Speaker 1: The people I can think of who are doing that

814
00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:32,120
Speaker 1: the most frequently on the people who have sort of

815
00:39:32,120 --> 00:39:33,840
Speaker 1: recently come to terms with their experience.

816
00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:36,919
Speaker 3: You know, that's exactly right. And so so I find

817
00:39:37,040 --> 00:39:40,680
Speaker 3: by framing it as a cultured relationship, people are more

818
00:39:40,760 --> 00:39:42,719
Speaker 3: like curious, like, well, what does that mean, because they

819
00:39:42,719 --> 00:39:44,680
Speaker 3: haven't heard it kind of referred to in those terms.

820
00:39:44,680 --> 00:39:49,640
Speaker 3: And a cultic relationship, by clinical terms, is any relationship

821
00:39:49,640 --> 00:39:52,240
Speaker 3: with the person that you're seeking love and approval from

822
00:39:52,880 --> 00:39:55,480
Speaker 3: is in some way controlling and abusing you because an essence,

823
00:39:55,480 --> 00:39:57,759
Speaker 3: you've kind of put them in a position of power

824
00:39:57,840 --> 00:40:01,839
Speaker 3: or authority by this desired have their approval. And so

825
00:40:02,360 --> 00:40:04,680
Speaker 3: that can be a parent, that can be a brother,

826
00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:08,799
Speaker 3: a sister, a coach, a boss, a lover. That is

827
00:40:08,840 --> 00:40:10,759
Speaker 3: one of the more common relationships we have, but we

828
00:40:10,800 --> 00:40:14,360
Speaker 3: don't identify it as that. We don't realize how traumatic

829
00:40:14,400 --> 00:40:17,920
Speaker 3: that relationship is. We usually are pretty effective at finding

830
00:40:17,960 --> 00:40:20,480
Speaker 3: our way out of that relationship at some point, but

831
00:40:20,520 --> 00:40:22,960
Speaker 3: then we write it off as a bad relationship and

832
00:40:23,040 --> 00:40:25,000
Speaker 3: really don't deal with the trauma, and then we kind

833
00:40:25,000 --> 00:40:28,520
Speaker 3: of start a cycle of finding similar relationships because we

834
00:40:28,520 --> 00:40:31,400
Speaker 3: don't realize we've had this trauma and we're kind of

835
00:40:31,440 --> 00:40:34,040
Speaker 3: re enacting that situation to try to learn from it.

836
00:40:34,880 --> 00:40:36,799
Speaker 3: This is, you know, what you learn in therapy, like

837
00:40:37,239 --> 00:40:42,080
Speaker 3: becoming conscious of unconscious patterns, And so that's why a

838
00:40:42,160 --> 00:40:45,359
Speaker 3: situation like mine or what you guys went through, which

839
00:40:45,400 --> 00:40:48,280
Speaker 3: is a more extreme version, because there's a group element,

840
00:40:48,320 --> 00:40:51,920
Speaker 3: there's pure pressure, there's not just the stakes of one person.

841
00:40:52,040 --> 00:40:54,640
Speaker 3: Our group was a doomsday cult, so the fate of

842
00:40:54,680 --> 00:40:57,839
Speaker 3: the world was lying and balance and so all of

843
00:40:57,840 --> 00:41:02,640
Speaker 3: this is like that experience on steroids, but the actual

844
00:41:02,719 --> 00:41:06,719
Speaker 3: dynamics at play are identical. And what I found as

845
00:41:06,760 --> 00:41:09,680
Speaker 3: I became more effective at communicating my story and not

846
00:41:09,760 --> 00:41:14,040
Speaker 3: trying to just shock everybody instead of, like I said,

847
00:41:14,040 --> 00:41:16,319
Speaker 3: my initial impulse was, I just wanted to be able

848
00:41:16,320 --> 00:41:17,960
Speaker 3: to own this part of my life and be able

849
00:41:17,960 --> 00:41:20,080
Speaker 3: to be okay with people talking about it so they

850
00:41:20,120 --> 00:41:22,799
Speaker 3: don't have to feel uncomfortable around me. But what I

851
00:41:22,840 --> 00:41:25,920
Speaker 3: didn't expect and what the real silver lining was as

852
00:41:25,960 --> 00:41:29,000
Speaker 3: I got better at communicating my story, like any good story,

853
00:41:29,400 --> 00:41:32,239
Speaker 3: instead of you listening to the story I'm telling, really

854
00:41:32,239 --> 00:41:34,640
Speaker 3: great story resonates with someone in their own lives. They're going, oh,

855
00:41:34,640 --> 00:41:37,520
Speaker 3: my gosh, reminds me of and I kept that that's

856
00:41:37,560 --> 00:41:39,480
Speaker 3: a great point, and I kept having people going, oh

857
00:41:39,560 --> 00:41:41,319
Speaker 3: my god, this sounds like the relationship I have with

858
00:41:41,360 --> 00:41:44,960
Speaker 3: my boss or my dad or my mom. And that's

859
00:41:44,960 --> 00:41:46,600
Speaker 3: when I said, oh my god, this really is a

860
00:41:46,719 --> 00:41:50,080
Speaker 3: universal tale. And that's where I felt even more important

861
00:41:50,160 --> 00:41:52,760
Speaker 3: to kind of convey this story, because if we don't

862
00:41:52,800 --> 00:41:56,200
Speaker 3: all start basically using the same language and the same

863
00:41:56,200 --> 00:41:58,799
Speaker 3: nomenclature to describe these experiences we're having, then no one's

864
00:41:58,840 --> 00:42:02,359
Speaker 3: really realizing we've got so much more common ground and

865
00:42:02,400 --> 00:42:04,200
Speaker 3: so much more healing than it needs to take place,

866
00:42:04,239 --> 00:42:07,560
Speaker 3: because we're not identifying the problem. You know, if you

867
00:42:07,560 --> 00:42:09,760
Speaker 3: don't have the diagnosis, you can't really get the medicine.

868
00:42:10,120 --> 00:42:14,440
Speaker 3: Speaking some truth, I've got twenty years of talking about this,

869
00:42:14,560 --> 00:42:18,759
Speaker 3: so it's like, hopefully I've made a few strides here

870
00:42:18,760 --> 00:42:21,719
Speaker 3: and there, but it's really been interesting because, like when

871
00:42:21,719 --> 00:42:24,440
Speaker 3: COVID happened to me, it was a very cultic reaction

872
00:42:24,520 --> 00:42:27,120
Speaker 3: that was going on in the world. Like when I

873
00:42:27,280 --> 00:42:29,440
Speaker 3: walked out during the two weeks to flatten the curve

874
00:42:29,800 --> 00:42:32,920
Speaker 3: and walked out the side walk, looked down the sidewalk

875
00:42:32,960 --> 00:42:35,040
Speaker 3: and saw someone like a block and a half away

876
00:42:35,040 --> 00:42:38,520
Speaker 3: who recognized I was a human, freaked out and ran

877
00:42:38,600 --> 00:42:41,160
Speaker 3: to the other side of the street. I'm like, Okay,

878
00:42:41,520 --> 00:42:44,640
Speaker 3: this is not the zombie apocalypse. Right, Like I was

879
00:42:44,680 --> 00:42:46,920
Speaker 3: preparing for the zombie apocalypse, I thought the whole thing

880
00:42:47,000 --> 00:42:49,080
Speaker 3: was so and this crazy experience of mine gave me

881
00:42:49,120 --> 00:42:51,480
Speaker 3: this lens of what it's like to live in fear

882
00:42:51,600 --> 00:42:56,399
Speaker 3: all the time. So I immediately said, that person's been indoctrinated.

883
00:42:56,440 --> 00:42:58,719
Speaker 3: You don't get there on your own thinking like that.

884
00:42:59,080 --> 00:43:02,759
Speaker 3: You get indoctrinated and be that terrified. Two weeks into

885
00:43:02,800 --> 00:43:06,040
Speaker 3: this thing, I'm like, this is bad. And from that

886
00:43:06,160 --> 00:43:10,399
Speaker 3: lens going forward, I just watched everyone gets sucked into

887
00:43:10,440 --> 00:43:13,800
Speaker 3: this thing where I'm like, man, the mental health fallout

888
00:43:13,840 --> 00:43:17,239
Speaker 3: from this is going to be astronomical, the PTSD. I

889
00:43:17,239 --> 00:43:20,080
Speaker 3: don't think people realize how traumatized they've been.

890
00:43:20,239 --> 00:43:21,520
Speaker 5: That's what I was going to ask you.

891
00:43:21,600 --> 00:43:25,319
Speaker 2: I mean you expected the apocalypse at any moment, which

892
00:43:25,360 --> 00:43:27,200
Speaker 2: is kind of no.

893
00:43:27,360 --> 00:43:27,560
Speaker 3: Yeah.

894
00:43:27,880 --> 00:43:30,160
Speaker 2: It's like when we've talked about this before, but when

895
00:43:30,160 --> 00:43:31,479
Speaker 2: I would go to a movie when I was younger,

896
00:43:31,520 --> 00:43:32,359
Speaker 2: I'd be like, can I go to a movie?

897
00:43:32,400 --> 00:43:34,040
Speaker 5: And my parents are like, is that where you want?

898
00:43:34,040 --> 00:43:35,160
Speaker 5: To be when Jesus.

899
00:43:34,840 --> 00:43:38,080
Speaker 2: Comes back, and I'd be like, shit, no, but you

900
00:43:38,120 --> 00:43:40,960
Speaker 2: know you always thought that, like it's lunchtime, will Jesus

901
00:43:41,000 --> 00:43:42,480
Speaker 2: come back before I finish eating?

902
00:43:42,520 --> 00:43:44,640
Speaker 5: Like was that what you were living under?

903
00:43:44,880 --> 00:43:47,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, because Freddie was in all in these prophecies in

904
00:43:47,600 --> 00:43:48,400
Speaker 3: which they were.

905
00:43:48,320 --> 00:43:50,480
Speaker 1: All wrong but shocking.

906
00:43:50,719 --> 00:43:52,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, but it was all kind of pointing towards the

907
00:43:53,000 --> 00:43:53,880
Speaker 3: end of the millennium.

908
00:43:53,960 --> 00:43:57,200
Speaker 1: So you guys believed that, correct me if I'm getting

909
00:43:57,200 --> 00:44:01,000
Speaker 1: this wrong, that essentially aliens from the star would come

910
00:44:01,320 --> 00:44:03,080
Speaker 1: at the end of the world and pick you up.

911
00:44:03,320 --> 00:44:05,880
Speaker 3: Well, you know, it's a great question and I should

912
00:44:05,880 --> 00:44:08,919
Speaker 3: have the answer, you know. I can tell you. All

913
00:44:08,920 --> 00:44:13,399
Speaker 3: he referenced was the space people that I'd ever really ask, well,

914
00:44:13,480 --> 00:44:16,759
Speaker 3: where are they the good space people? Or no, just like,

915
00:44:16,920 --> 00:44:20,040
Speaker 3: oh my god, Star Wars is coming to life. Space

916
00:44:20,080 --> 00:44:22,120
Speaker 3: people are out there. This is us And he would

917
00:44:22,160 --> 00:44:25,000
Speaker 3: refer to it sometimes like the Ashtar Command. There's some

918
00:44:25,040 --> 00:44:28,200
Speaker 3: book written about that or something, the Intergalactic Fleet or

919
00:44:28,200 --> 00:44:30,879
Speaker 3: some sort of thing. So I can just tell you

920
00:44:31,360 --> 00:44:32,840
Speaker 3: because I was so caught up in it and so

921
00:44:32,880 --> 00:44:36,160
Speaker 3: excited by that sci fi aspect of it, and no

922
00:44:36,200 --> 00:44:38,640
Speaker 3: one was asking those questions I mean even when we

923
00:44:38,719 --> 00:44:42,279
Speaker 3: bought property down in North Carolina where it was going

924
00:44:42,320 --> 00:44:44,480
Speaker 3: to be one of the safe places as the storms

925
00:44:44,480 --> 00:44:46,439
Speaker 3: were all going to come in and as the world

926
00:44:46,520 --> 00:44:49,960
Speaker 3: is going to be moving towards this grand apocalyptic event

927
00:44:50,800 --> 00:44:54,280
Speaker 3: in the western hills and mountains of the Appalachians. Western

928
00:44:54,280 --> 00:44:57,640
Speaker 3: North Carolina was going to become beachfront property. So we

929
00:44:57,719 --> 00:45:00,840
Speaker 3: had this mountain piece that we were buying and I

930
00:45:00,880 --> 00:45:04,399
Speaker 3: remember looking at it and Freddy's looking at the top.

931
00:45:04,480 --> 00:45:06,680
Speaker 3: He's like, yeah, we can. We're going to build the

932
00:45:06,719 --> 00:45:10,879
Speaker 3: platforms up there for the ships to land. And I'm like, yeah,

933
00:45:11,239 --> 00:45:13,920
Speaker 3: that's gonna be awesome. And I'm like, now, if I

934
00:45:13,960 --> 00:45:16,080
Speaker 3: was thinking like a normal person, like what we're going

935
00:45:16,120 --> 00:45:21,360
Speaker 3: to build like plywood platforms for some metallic spaceship, Like

936
00:45:21,800 --> 00:45:23,120
Speaker 3: what is he fucking talking about?

937
00:45:23,200 --> 00:45:23,279
Speaker 2: Right?

938
00:45:23,400 --> 00:45:25,520
Speaker 3: But I'm like, Oh, yeah, it's gonna be all right

939
00:45:25,520 --> 00:45:26,600
Speaker 3: there on the top of the mountain.

940
00:45:26,840 --> 00:45:28,840
Speaker 5: So are you the one buying all of this? Sorry?

941
00:45:29,840 --> 00:45:31,880
Speaker 3: No, I mean I was largely financing all of it.

942
00:45:32,080 --> 00:45:34,640
Speaker 3: In another life. I was a very successful model, right,

943
00:45:34,680 --> 00:45:37,440
Speaker 3: So that was all going on. That's where my story

944
00:45:37,480 --> 00:45:40,080
Speaker 3: I think captures a lot of people's interests because I

945
00:45:40,200 --> 00:45:43,080
Speaker 3: really lived a double life. You know, it's not probably

946
00:45:43,200 --> 00:45:46,840
Speaker 3: unlike the Tom cruises out there, you know, of where

947
00:45:46,880 --> 00:45:49,280
Speaker 3: you you know, you kind of have a very public

948
00:45:49,320 --> 00:45:51,640
Speaker 3: image when that people would think, oh, god, I'd love

949
00:45:51,680 --> 00:45:55,000
Speaker 3: to have that life, and yet my every day is

950
00:45:55,040 --> 00:45:57,359
Speaker 3: being controlled in some fashion. I had to call in,

951
00:45:57,560 --> 00:46:01,520
Speaker 3: I had to check in and kind of spin doctor

952
00:46:01,560 --> 00:46:04,239
Speaker 3: the way the day went, because you know, people always think, well, God,

953
00:46:04,239 --> 00:46:06,200
Speaker 3: if you were out all the time, you know, that

954
00:46:06,280 --> 00:46:09,120
Speaker 3: must have been awesome. And one of the favorite questions is, oh,

955
00:46:09,200 --> 00:46:13,560
Speaker 3: why didn't you just leave? Yeah, took a question, but

956
00:46:13,960 --> 00:46:17,120
Speaker 3: that's that's a question that really informs you that the

957
00:46:17,160 --> 00:46:19,680
Speaker 3: person doesn't know what they're talking about. Yeah, and using

958
00:46:19,719 --> 00:46:22,560
Speaker 3: the word just really makes it bad. I try to

959
00:46:23,520 --> 00:46:26,040
Speaker 3: tell people, I said, when you asked that question, it's

960
00:46:26,160 --> 00:46:29,319
Speaker 3: kind of like if I came to you and said,

961
00:46:29,320 --> 00:46:32,319
Speaker 3: you know, at twenty one, I was raped and you

962
00:46:32,400 --> 00:46:34,840
Speaker 3: turned to me and said, what were you wearing that night.

963
00:46:35,800 --> 00:46:38,960
Speaker 1: Which, by the way, many people have said similar things

964
00:46:39,000 --> 00:46:43,120
Speaker 1: to me, like people just don't understand the nuances of

965
00:46:43,160 --> 00:46:44,759
Speaker 1: power dynamics, really they don't.

966
00:46:44,920 --> 00:46:47,239
Speaker 3: And I don't fault them because it's a defense mechanism.

967
00:46:47,280 --> 00:46:48,640
Speaker 3: I mean, there were times I took it the heart

968
00:46:48,640 --> 00:46:50,879
Speaker 3: and I was like what. But it's the same sort

969
00:46:50,920 --> 00:46:54,680
Speaker 3: of thing like during my early conversations of dropping the cult, Baham,

970
00:46:54,719 --> 00:46:56,440
Speaker 3: you know, I'd have people going, well, you know, I

971
00:46:56,440 --> 00:46:58,200
Speaker 3: would never be involved in a cult, and they would

972
00:46:58,239 --> 00:47:00,759
Speaker 3: have that or they would just very innocently look at

973
00:47:00,800 --> 00:47:02,520
Speaker 3: me and say, so, what was so weak about you

974
00:47:02,600 --> 00:47:03,480
Speaker 3: that got you involved?

975
00:47:03,560 --> 00:47:05,399
Speaker 1: Right, right right?

976
00:47:05,440 --> 00:47:10,040
Speaker 3: And again it's it's a defense mechanism because what they're

977
00:47:10,080 --> 00:47:14,080
Speaker 3: wanting to say to themselves and have me validate, is oh,

978
00:47:14,160 --> 00:47:16,040
Speaker 3: that's terrible that happened to you, But just reassure me

979
00:47:16,080 --> 00:47:17,799
Speaker 3: that won't happen to me exactly. And of course, the

980
00:47:17,800 --> 00:47:20,680
Speaker 3: whole point of me having the conversation is not only

981
00:47:20,920 --> 00:47:23,040
Speaker 3: could it happen to you, it probably already has happened

982
00:47:23,040 --> 00:47:25,719
Speaker 3: to you and you just haven't identified it. Now. You

983
00:47:25,719 --> 00:47:27,840
Speaker 3: probably didn't go through what I went through. When I'm saying,

984
00:47:27,840 --> 00:47:30,759
Speaker 3: but you have had relationship and power dynamicous like this

985
00:47:30,840 --> 00:47:34,040
Speaker 3: that you've experienced, and you've probably been deeply wounded and

986
00:47:34,200 --> 00:47:35,720
Speaker 3: just not really understood.

987
00:47:35,239 --> 00:47:37,000
Speaker 1: It right or they're on the other side and they're

988
00:47:37,040 --> 00:47:39,719
Speaker 1: wounding everybody right right exactly.

989
00:47:40,040 --> 00:47:42,040
Speaker 3: So it's a really interesting kind of thing. The way

990
00:47:42,080 --> 00:47:44,799
Speaker 3: it's played out for me in this way, and when

991
00:47:44,800 --> 00:47:48,319
Speaker 3: it came down to this whole space thing for me

992
00:47:48,480 --> 00:47:50,799
Speaker 3: the way you know, Freddie would present, it's like, oh yeah,

993
00:47:50,800 --> 00:47:52,319
Speaker 3: the space people are going to come down and he's

994
00:47:52,320 --> 00:47:54,279
Speaker 3: the only one talking to them, of course, but they

995
00:47:54,280 --> 00:47:56,600
Speaker 3: had the rejuvenation machines or are they going to lift

996
00:47:56,680 --> 00:47:58,359
Speaker 3: us out? The planet's going to We believe in this

997
00:47:58,360 --> 00:48:00,680
Speaker 3: thing called the poll shift, which is basically like, oh yeah,

998
00:48:00,960 --> 00:48:04,120
Speaker 3: Edgar Casey. He was basically plagiarizing Edgin Casey and like

999
00:48:04,200 --> 00:48:06,640
Speaker 3: ninety nine percent of the population get wiped out. There'd

1000
00:48:06,680 --> 00:48:08,520
Speaker 3: be a few safe places, but we were going to

1001
00:48:08,680 --> 00:48:12,319
Speaker 3: lift it out, rejuvenated, you know, schooled, and come back

1002
00:48:12,320 --> 00:48:15,240
Speaker 3: and basically make it heaven on Earth, so to speak.

1003
00:48:15,800 --> 00:48:17,800
Speaker 3: One of the things that's kind of hilarious is Freddy

1004
00:48:17,960 --> 00:48:20,840
Speaker 3: was really into being tan, and so in the eighties,

1005
00:48:20,920 --> 00:48:22,800
Speaker 3: all these tanning machines are going on, we were all

1006
00:48:22,880 --> 00:48:24,240
Speaker 3: just constantly tanned.

1007
00:48:26,840 --> 00:48:30,920
Speaker 2: A picture of Amore I barely, yeah, almost had no

1008
00:48:30,960 --> 00:48:32,360
Speaker 2: features ima.

1009
00:48:32,160 --> 00:48:34,640
Speaker 3: Tan and I was modeling, which is fine to be tanned,

1010
00:48:34,719 --> 00:48:36,440
Speaker 3: but but I used to have friends say like, are

1011
00:48:36,440 --> 00:48:38,560
Speaker 3: you sure you're not going to be like damaging your skins.

1012
00:48:38,560 --> 00:48:41,399
Speaker 3: I was like blasting my face constantly, and then my mind,

1013
00:48:41,440 --> 00:48:43,319
Speaker 3: I was thinking, Man, I'm going to be in the

1014
00:48:43,320 --> 00:48:45,560
Speaker 3: rejuvenation chamber of ten years. It's like, I don't have

1015
00:48:45,560 --> 00:48:48,000
Speaker 3: to worry about that. You gout, that is not an issue,

1016
00:48:48,320 --> 00:48:51,440
Speaker 3: not an issue for me. I traveled constantly. I was

1017
00:48:51,480 --> 00:48:55,239
Speaker 3: on the road probably three hundred days a year for

1018
00:48:55,680 --> 00:48:58,280
Speaker 3: ten years running, and I would get on a plane

1019
00:48:58,360 --> 00:49:00,960
Speaker 3: and I'd immediately think, like, I wish I could tell

1020
00:49:00,960 --> 00:49:02,719
Speaker 3: iry on the plane that this is going to be

1021
00:49:02,719 --> 00:49:04,960
Speaker 3: a safe flight because I've got a very important role

1022
00:49:05,000 --> 00:49:08,880
Speaker 3: to play on this planet and they're all safe. Wow.

1023
00:49:10,440 --> 00:49:11,600
Speaker 5: Wow, Wow.

1024
00:49:11,840 --> 00:49:13,640
Speaker 3: That was the kind of mental person I was in,

1025
00:49:13,760 --> 00:49:16,640
Speaker 3: you know, just thinking that I had this grand role.

1026
00:49:17,000 --> 00:49:19,400
Speaker 3: And of course, you know, it's just all part of

1027
00:49:19,440 --> 00:49:21,960
Speaker 3: that magical thinking and all that stuff that we really

1028
00:49:22,000 --> 00:49:23,640
Speaker 3: get caught up. And I tell people all the time,

1029
00:49:24,120 --> 00:49:26,319
Speaker 3: if I can prove something in the lab, people like, eh,

1030
00:49:26,800 --> 00:49:29,520
Speaker 3: know what. But if I tell you, all right, this

1031
00:49:29,560 --> 00:49:33,480
Speaker 3: thing only works if you believe in it, people are like, oh,

1032
00:49:33,520 --> 00:49:37,000
Speaker 3: I'm in, I'm in now, I want to know tell

1033
00:49:37,040 --> 00:49:37,440
Speaker 3: me how it.

1034
00:49:37,400 --> 00:49:40,080
Speaker 1: Works, which is fucked up because that is true about

1035
00:49:40,160 --> 00:49:43,520
Speaker 1: certain things when it comes to placebos.

1036
00:49:42,840 --> 00:49:46,359
Speaker 2: We're taught that with speaker bell, remember, like you can't

1037
00:49:46,360 --> 00:49:47,320
Speaker 2: see her unless you believe.

1038
00:49:47,480 --> 00:49:50,359
Speaker 1: Oh, I mean the frosting and hook does I even

1039
00:49:50,400 --> 00:49:54,000
Speaker 1: remember the scene yes here where they're throwing frosted like you.

1040
00:49:54,040 --> 00:49:55,920
Speaker 5: Can't see it to believe.

1041
00:49:56,920 --> 00:49:59,000
Speaker 2: I mean, there are so many fairy tales that were

1042
00:49:59,000 --> 00:50:00,560
Speaker 2: like you can't see it unless you.

1043
00:50:00,520 --> 00:50:01,239
Speaker 5: Believe in it.

1044
00:50:01,440 --> 00:50:04,279
Speaker 1: That's right, and you're like, okay, the nothingness and never

1045
00:50:04,360 --> 00:50:04,839
Speaker 1: ending story.

1046
00:50:05,000 --> 00:50:07,359
Speaker 3: I mean, I mean so much of well, I mean

1047
00:50:07,760 --> 00:50:10,240
Speaker 3: it is right. You know, faith is a very powerful

1048
00:50:10,239 --> 00:50:12,719
Speaker 3: mechanism and yeah, you know, a power used for good

1049
00:50:12,800 --> 00:50:15,359
Speaker 3: or bad, right, that hooks in our psyche much more

1050
00:50:15,360 --> 00:50:16,399
Speaker 3: I think than anything else.

1051
00:50:16,800 --> 00:50:19,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, evidence is boring. Yeah, we don't need that.

1052
00:50:20,120 --> 00:50:22,400
Speaker 3: And now apparently the aliens are here and I'll live

1053
00:50:22,440 --> 00:50:23,480
Speaker 3: you're in hearing that lately.

1054
00:50:23,600 --> 00:50:25,480
Speaker 1: In three days we're supposed to get all the afforation.

1055
00:50:25,560 --> 00:50:27,560
Speaker 2: Maybe the cole was right, I mean, I mean I

1056
00:50:27,719 --> 00:50:29,160
Speaker 2: think that there's some shit.

1057
00:50:29,440 --> 00:50:32,279
Speaker 1: But although although didn't they say that, it's like not,

1058
00:50:32,360 --> 00:50:34,120
Speaker 1: actually there's no evidence really of anything.

1059
00:50:34,280 --> 00:50:34,960
Speaker 5: Of course there's not.

1060
00:50:35,040 --> 00:50:37,239
Speaker 3: I watched Joe Rogan. Joe Rogan's totally into it.

1061
00:50:37,360 --> 00:50:39,400
Speaker 1: I know, I listened to those episodes, and he's.

1062
00:50:39,239 --> 00:50:40,880
Speaker 3: Like that, he brings to these guys like I was

1063
00:50:40,920 --> 00:50:42,840
Speaker 3: in the studio Area fifty one. I worked on the

1064
00:50:42,880 --> 00:50:44,040
Speaker 3: anti gravity.

1065
00:50:43,600 --> 00:50:45,160
Speaker 1: Machine Studio I believe.

1066
00:50:45,239 --> 00:50:50,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, exactly, Yeah that's Studio fifty one. Yeah yeah, So,

1067
00:50:50,719 --> 00:50:53,440
Speaker 3: I mean, who knows. It's a it's but my question

1068
00:50:53,600 --> 00:50:56,160
Speaker 3: if any of that does come out, it's like, why now.

1069
00:50:57,160 --> 00:50:59,560
Speaker 2: Yeah exactly, that would be my question because the manipulating

1070
00:50:59,640 --> 00:51:02,120
Speaker 2: is in a different way. Now, now you know they're real,

1071
00:51:02,160 --> 00:51:03,560
Speaker 2: we probably do this.

1072
00:51:03,760 --> 00:51:08,080
Speaker 1: It's like, okay, or they're just dumb and haven't been coordinating. Well,

1073
00:51:08,200 --> 00:51:08,680
Speaker 1: I don't know.

1074
00:51:09,120 --> 00:51:13,040
Speaker 3: Well, clearly they're not aggressive. Otherwise we've been wiped out

1075
00:51:13,040 --> 00:51:13,359
Speaker 3: by now.

1076
00:51:13,440 --> 00:51:15,720
Speaker 1: So oh you mean why now the aliens? I was thinking,

1077
00:51:15,760 --> 00:51:16,560
Speaker 1: why now the government?

1078
00:51:16,680 --> 00:51:18,600
Speaker 3: Oh no, yeah, yeah, well I know, I say, why

1079
00:51:18,600 --> 00:51:20,520
Speaker 3: now the government telling us about the aliens? I think

1080
00:51:20,560 --> 00:51:23,720
Speaker 3: the aliens probably have some plan that whatever.

1081
00:51:23,920 --> 00:51:24,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think they're cool.

1082
00:51:24,800 --> 00:51:26,319
Speaker 3: I don't think they're trying to wipe us out now.

1083
00:51:26,320 --> 00:51:28,520
Speaker 1: I hope our audience understands that we are not just

1084
00:51:28,560 --> 00:51:31,279
Speaker 1: talking about aliens. Willy nilly. There are documents that are

1085
00:51:31,280 --> 00:51:32,320
Speaker 1: being released by.

1086
00:51:32,200 --> 00:51:36,319
Speaker 3: The Pentagon by yeah, right now, do Pentagon UFOs and.

1087
00:51:38,160 --> 00:51:40,680
Speaker 2: Israeli a head of defense said that they have stopped

1088
00:51:40,719 --> 00:51:42,000
Speaker 2: nuclear war three times.

1089
00:51:42,239 --> 00:51:45,239
Speaker 3: Excuse me, Yeah, yeah, apparently that the ships all come

1090
00:51:45,280 --> 00:51:49,440
Speaker 3: around like during the nuclear plants or where the foreheads

1091
00:51:49,480 --> 00:51:51,359
Speaker 3: are and they shut things down.

1092
00:51:51,640 --> 00:51:52,440
Speaker 5: Well that's nice.

1093
00:51:52,600 --> 00:51:55,319
Speaker 3: Yeah, so they're looking out for it, thank god. I

1094
00:51:55,360 --> 00:51:57,040
Speaker 3: doubt they're Auctorian, though they're not.

1095
00:51:57,719 --> 00:52:02,200
Speaker 2: I checked. They were the other people in this group

1096
00:52:02,239 --> 00:52:06,800
Speaker 2: with you equally like charismatic and good looking and well, if.

1097
00:52:06,600 --> 00:52:09,000
Speaker 3: You think of like a profile that we would try

1098
00:52:09,040 --> 00:52:12,279
Speaker 3: to target, yes, but that doesn't mean you wouldn't take

1099
00:52:12,280 --> 00:52:14,440
Speaker 3: someone who was an eager beaver wanting to be got it.

1100
00:52:15,239 --> 00:52:18,600
Speaker 3: But it was like a branding mechanism. The idea was

1101
00:52:18,600 --> 00:52:21,000
Speaker 3: that you've gone to a good school, you were well presented,

1102
00:52:21,040 --> 00:52:23,759
Speaker 3: well spoken, everything that Freddie had wanted to be. This

1103
00:52:23,800 --> 00:52:25,960
Speaker 3: has been a really big missing piece for me getting

1104
00:52:25,960 --> 00:52:28,880
Speaker 3: more information about his background. Not that I have to

1105
00:52:28,880 --> 00:52:31,400
Speaker 3: figure out his backstory, but it is fascinating. It is

1106
00:52:31,440 --> 00:52:34,040
Speaker 3: interesting to say, like, how did that come about?

1107
00:52:34,120 --> 00:52:34,319
Speaker 2: Yeah?

1108
00:52:34,360 --> 00:52:36,440
Speaker 1: Totally, totally. It all reminds me a little bit of

1109
00:52:36,480 --> 00:52:39,280
Speaker 1: Will Allen's story. Are you familiar with him? The documentary?

1110
00:52:39,320 --> 00:52:41,120
Speaker 5: Holy hell, you should Oh yeah, no, I do.

1111
00:52:41,480 --> 00:52:41,879
Speaker 3: I have seen.

1112
00:52:41,920 --> 00:52:44,360
Speaker 1: Holy hell, they're all very tan, actually beautiful.

1113
00:52:44,480 --> 00:52:45,960
Speaker 3: Actually, when I watched it, I'm like, oh my god,

1114
00:52:46,000 --> 00:52:47,600
Speaker 3: he looks a lot like Freddy. Really.

1115
00:52:47,719 --> 00:52:49,520
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, was Freddy getting surgery too?

1116
00:52:49,760 --> 00:52:53,960
Speaker 3: Oh? Five facelifts by the time Wow died. Yeah, he

1117
00:52:54,040 --> 00:52:54,920
Speaker 3: looked like a freak.

1118
00:52:55,120 --> 00:52:56,359
Speaker 5: How old was he when he died?

1119
00:52:56,520 --> 00:52:58,680
Speaker 3: Mid to late forties and he died of aids?

1120
00:52:58,920 --> 00:53:01,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, quick insert here. One question I meant to

1121
00:53:01,640 --> 00:53:03,799
Speaker 1: ask while we were doing the interview was how the

1122
00:53:03,840 --> 00:53:07,000
Speaker 1: group stayed together after the leader died, And basically the

1123
00:53:07,040 --> 00:53:10,160
Speaker 1: answer is that eventually a new leader emerged and he

1124
00:53:10,239 --> 00:53:13,280
Speaker 1: wasn't as savvy as the original guy, Freddie, but everyone

1125
00:53:13,360 --> 00:53:16,399
Speaker 1: was so indoctrinated already that he knew how to push

1126
00:53:16,480 --> 00:53:18,280
Speaker 1: the right buttons and invoke that trauma.

1127
00:53:18,520 --> 00:53:22,080
Speaker 3: I've reconnected with some of the ex members and know

1128
00:53:22,200 --> 00:53:24,920
Speaker 3: because I escaped in nineteen ninety nine. I figured out

1129
00:53:24,920 --> 00:53:29,480
Speaker 3: it was a cult around two thousand and one. So

1130
00:53:29,480 --> 00:53:31,920
Speaker 3: that's a whole other story because I didn't leave figuring

1131
00:53:31,960 --> 00:53:34,000
Speaker 3: out what it was. I figured it out later after

1132
00:53:34,040 --> 00:53:36,040
Speaker 3: going through his PTSD. But then I kind of went

1133
00:53:36,080 --> 00:53:39,239
Speaker 3: on the attack. I had all this suppressed anger and resentment.

1134
00:53:39,880 --> 00:53:41,400
Speaker 3: I had no money and they were living in a

1135
00:53:41,440 --> 00:53:43,920
Speaker 3: house that I had bought. There had businesses guard and

1136
00:53:44,040 --> 00:53:45,000
Speaker 3: I read.

1137
00:53:44,840 --> 00:53:47,560
Speaker 5: You who gave them a like four point five million dollars?

1138
00:53:47,800 --> 00:53:48,640
Speaker 1: Oh my god.

1139
00:53:48,920 --> 00:53:51,400
Speaker 3: And so yeah, he's barely making ends meeting I was

1140
00:53:51,440 --> 00:53:53,200
Speaker 3: living at Fabio's, which is a.

1141
00:53:53,000 --> 00:53:54,400
Speaker 1: Hilarious part of the Fabio.

1142
00:53:54,560 --> 00:53:57,319
Speaker 2: Everyone yes, thought he helped you. Yeah, when you were leaving,

1143
00:53:57,440 --> 00:53:59,400
Speaker 2: you remembered he said something.

1144
00:53:59,120 --> 00:54:03,799
Speaker 3: To such a great guy and what he's revealed to

1145
00:54:03,840 --> 00:54:07,719
Speaker 3: me looking back in that time, like I arrived and

1146
00:54:07,760 --> 00:54:11,279
Speaker 3: he knew something really bad it happened, and so he

1147
00:54:11,880 --> 00:54:14,000
Speaker 3: being very kind of aware like he is, he goes

1148
00:54:14,040 --> 00:54:17,719
Speaker 3: sometimes you know that it's not in your place to

1149
00:54:17,719 --> 00:54:22,240
Speaker 3: push someone. Just let them have space, let them feel safe,

1150
00:54:22,239 --> 00:54:24,719
Speaker 3: and when it's time and ready, they'll come and talk

1151
00:54:24,760 --> 00:54:27,320
Speaker 3: to me. And so I lived at his place for

1152
00:54:27,360 --> 00:54:29,520
Speaker 3: a year. He never once asked me why I was there.

1153
00:54:29,520 --> 00:54:33,360
Speaker 3: He never asked my friend. He just completely let me incubate.

1154
00:54:33,440 --> 00:54:35,960
Speaker 3: And that's how I kind of worked to the PTSD

1155
00:54:36,000 --> 00:54:38,959
Speaker 3: and eventually started to figure out what had happened. Because

1156
00:54:39,880 --> 00:54:40,279
Speaker 3: is a god.

1157
00:54:42,000 --> 00:54:44,480
Speaker 4: We already thought he was a guy.

1158
00:54:44,520 --> 00:54:49,120
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, he's crazy smart. Let's go engineer, and he is,

1159
00:54:49,160 --> 00:54:51,400
Speaker 3: and he's my stockbroker. He knows stocks, you know. I

1160
00:54:51,480 --> 00:54:53,240
Speaker 3: was like, oh, yeah, Bobby is amazing.

1161
00:54:53,640 --> 00:54:54,240
Speaker 1: Is he single?

1162
00:54:54,640 --> 00:54:55,000
Speaker 3: He is?

1163
00:54:55,320 --> 00:55:02,839
Speaker 5: Oh interesting. We just say Lola's dating a stockbroker.

1164
00:55:03,719 --> 00:55:05,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly. There you go.

1165
00:55:06,600 --> 00:55:08,200
Speaker 1: Can you talk about how you left?

1166
00:55:08,400 --> 00:55:10,680
Speaker 3: Yeah? And I wish I could tell you. I woke

1167
00:55:10,800 --> 00:55:13,040
Speaker 3: up one night in the middle of the night and said,

1168
00:55:13,040 --> 00:55:15,120
Speaker 3: oh my god, I think this is really dangerous. It

1169
00:55:15,160 --> 00:55:16,799
Speaker 3: might be a culp. I should get the hell out

1170
00:55:16,800 --> 00:55:20,000
Speaker 3: of here. Nothing even close. So it was Midsummer of

1171
00:55:20,120 --> 00:55:23,160
Speaker 3: nineteen ninety nine, two thousands, when the shit's supposed to

1172
00:55:23,200 --> 00:55:26,399
Speaker 3: hit the fan, right, I'm still traveling around all over

1173
00:55:26,480 --> 00:55:31,000
Speaker 3: Europe constantly. So I'm in London, Paris, Milan, and I'm

1174
00:55:31,000 --> 00:55:33,279
Speaker 3: looking around and like, there's no storms going on, no

1175
00:55:33,560 --> 00:55:39,160
Speaker 3: government's collapsing, no economies crashing. So I'm like, if nothing else,

1176
00:55:39,200 --> 00:55:42,800
Speaker 3: the timeline's wrong. In some way, my critical thinking is

1177
00:55:42,840 --> 00:55:47,560
Speaker 3: starting to come back slightly right and then very boldly,

1178
00:55:47,800 --> 00:55:50,560
Speaker 3: and you could say fortunately or unfortunately. I decided to

1179
00:55:50,640 --> 00:55:54,160
Speaker 3: voice some of those concerns, and of course I got crushed,

1180
00:55:54,239 --> 00:55:57,160
Speaker 3: kind of like being a blasphemer. So then it became

1181
00:55:57,600 --> 00:56:01,080
Speaker 3: kind of the modus operendum to save me from myself.

1182
00:56:01,600 --> 00:56:04,399
Speaker 3: So it was dictated that I would have to move

1183
00:56:04,480 --> 00:56:08,040
Speaker 3: down to our compound that we had down in North Carolina,

1184
00:56:08,760 --> 00:56:11,200
Speaker 3: and they started shaving my head so I couldn't model.

1185
00:56:11,280 --> 00:56:13,919
Speaker 3: I had to be the first one up, the last

1186
00:56:13,960 --> 00:56:17,759
Speaker 3: one to bed any type of slavelike labor to teach

1187
00:56:17,840 --> 00:56:20,920
Speaker 3: me humility or anything. Anyone that didn't want to do

1188
00:56:21,000 --> 00:56:21,520
Speaker 3: I had to do.

1189
00:56:21,680 --> 00:56:22,880
Speaker 5: They're like such haters.

1190
00:56:23,120 --> 00:56:26,040
Speaker 3: When Freddie was alive, he treated me with kit clubs

1191
00:56:26,040 --> 00:56:28,839
Speaker 3: and really got me into that generosity mode, like as

1192
00:56:28,880 --> 00:56:30,520
Speaker 3: long as you keep giving them money, you get a

1193
00:56:30,840 --> 00:56:34,200
Speaker 3: little freedom here. And so because of those years when

1194
00:56:34,239 --> 00:56:37,960
Speaker 3: Freddie was alive, I got kind of preferential treatment. So

1195
00:56:38,000 --> 00:56:40,600
Speaker 3: there's a lot of pent up resentment and jealousy, and

1196
00:56:41,040 --> 00:56:43,759
Speaker 3: the next ten years was much rougher for me, and

1197
00:56:43,800 --> 00:56:46,279
Speaker 3: it culminated with this last period of where they were

1198
00:56:46,320 --> 00:56:49,080
Speaker 3: really coming after me because I was starting to poke

1199
00:56:49,239 --> 00:56:53,680
Speaker 3: holes in this idea that our great fearless leader might

1200
00:56:53,719 --> 00:56:57,399
Speaker 3: be fucking wrong, you know, And so that made life

1201
00:56:57,480 --> 00:57:00,759
Speaker 3: very rough for me, and I was literally figuredly living

1202
00:57:00,800 --> 00:57:03,239
Speaker 3: in the doghouse because we had renovated this house and

1203
00:57:03,280 --> 00:57:05,640
Speaker 3: we had built a garage where we kept the dogs

1204
00:57:05,640 --> 00:57:07,600
Speaker 3: and we had converted it into an office. So I

1205
00:57:07,680 --> 00:57:10,200
Speaker 3: slept up there with the dogs while they were on.

1206
00:57:10,719 --> 00:57:13,239
Speaker 3: But that's how I was able to escape because we

1207
00:57:13,280 --> 00:57:15,600
Speaker 3: had this whole phone system and whenever I pick up

1208
00:57:15,600 --> 00:57:18,439
Speaker 3: the phone in the office, everyone would know and they'd

1209
00:57:18,520 --> 00:57:21,240
Speaker 3: say who you're on the phone with. And so when

1210
00:57:21,240 --> 00:57:24,320
Speaker 3: I had to escape, if I used the fax phone,

1211
00:57:24,720 --> 00:57:27,000
Speaker 3: it didn't set off, and so I was able to

1212
00:57:27,000 --> 00:57:28,000
Speaker 3: actually escape that way.

1213
00:57:28,080 --> 00:57:30,280
Speaker 5: How'd you escape? What'd you fat?

1214
00:57:30,400 --> 00:57:32,320
Speaker 3: Well? I just well, I got on the phone and

1215
00:57:32,360 --> 00:57:34,440
Speaker 3: I called a cab. It took me three attempts to

1216
00:57:34,480 --> 00:57:36,560
Speaker 3: get away, like they caught me twice, but the third

1217
00:57:36,560 --> 00:57:39,520
Speaker 3: time my driving privilege has been taken away because once

1218
00:57:39,560 --> 00:57:42,120
Speaker 3: I'd driven myself to the airport and then they caught me.

1219
00:57:42,160 --> 00:57:45,720
Speaker 3: And so I just had a cab that was about

1220
00:57:45,880 --> 00:57:48,000
Speaker 3: a mile and a half down the hill that was

1221
00:57:48,040 --> 00:57:50,480
Speaker 3: meeting me at like two thirty in the morning, and

1222
00:57:50,520 --> 00:57:53,040
Speaker 3: I had to like stealthily go out like a prison

1223
00:57:53,080 --> 00:57:54,840
Speaker 3: break and not wake the dogs, hope that no one

1224
00:57:54,840 --> 00:57:57,400
Speaker 3: would hear me, and then bolt and I just went,

1225
00:57:57,480 --> 00:58:01,200
Speaker 3: you know, back there six weeks ago, that same spot,

1226
00:58:01,280 --> 00:58:04,040
Speaker 3: and that you know, they talk about how trauma stays

1227
00:58:04,040 --> 00:58:06,720
Speaker 3: in the body, and yeah, I've done a decent amount

1228
00:58:06,720 --> 00:58:08,480
Speaker 3: of work on this, you know, I talked about a lot.

1229
00:58:08,560 --> 00:58:11,320
Speaker 3: But when I stepped right back on the I tell

1230
00:58:11,360 --> 00:58:13,640
Speaker 3: you the HEV gv's, I felt as like I was

1231
00:58:13,720 --> 00:58:19,680
Speaker 3: right back there. So trauma's very, very real. But each

1232
00:58:19,720 --> 00:58:21,720
Speaker 3: time I went back, it got better. And it's just

1233
00:58:21,720 --> 00:58:24,680
Speaker 3: always better to face your demons and avoid them. But

1234
00:58:24,880 --> 00:58:28,960
Speaker 3: it was really that visceral feeling of that. I remember

1235
00:58:29,040 --> 00:58:31,760
Speaker 3: just looking down that hill and running, like thinking they're

1236
00:58:31,800 --> 00:58:34,560
Speaker 3: behind me because I'd even forgotten. It's on a man

1237
00:58:34,600 --> 00:58:37,720
Speaker 3: made lake and there's this damn and I remember driving

1238
00:58:37,720 --> 00:58:39,560
Speaker 3: and I'm like, I don't even remember that damn, Like

1239
00:58:39,600 --> 00:58:42,560
Speaker 3: it's all so fuzzy, because I think the trauma was

1240
00:58:42,560 --> 00:58:45,680
Speaker 3: so intense that I don't have strong memories as I

1241
00:58:45,680 --> 00:58:47,720
Speaker 3: would have thought I would have. But then when I

1242
00:58:47,760 --> 00:58:50,560
Speaker 3: was coming back from being up there and I saw

1243
00:58:50,600 --> 00:58:53,040
Speaker 3: it coming from that point of view, the way I

1244
00:58:53,080 --> 00:58:56,040
Speaker 3: actually had escaped, I'm like, oh God, I do remember

1245
00:58:56,040 --> 00:58:58,680
Speaker 3: this now because it's completely out in the open, and

1246
00:58:58,720 --> 00:59:01,160
Speaker 3: I thought I am so expected. There's nothing to hide,

1247
00:59:01,240 --> 00:59:05,720
Speaker 3: no trees, nothing, And I bolted across that bridge that

1248
00:59:05,840 --> 00:59:07,800
Speaker 3: I speak, because I was like, there's no way I'm

1249
00:59:07,840 --> 00:59:10,800
Speaker 3: coming back this time. So it was after that that

1250
00:59:10,880 --> 00:59:13,360
Speaker 3: I went into kind of the PTSD I hung at Fabio's.

1251
00:59:13,720 --> 00:59:16,520
Speaker 1: Another quick insert here. So one more thing I wondered

1252
00:59:16,520 --> 00:59:19,160
Speaker 1: after we did the interview was what the previous escape

1253
00:59:19,200 --> 00:59:21,880
Speaker 1: attempts were like. So here's what Hoyt told me after

1254
00:59:21,920 --> 00:59:24,600
Speaker 1: we spoke the first time. So basically, his two failed

1255
00:59:24,600 --> 00:59:27,360
Speaker 1: attempts involved him getting caught in his New York apartment.

1256
00:59:27,440 --> 00:59:29,600
Speaker 1: So on his first break, he was living in La

1257
00:59:29,640 --> 00:59:32,160
Speaker 1: at Fabio's, but was still in communication with a group

1258
00:59:32,240 --> 00:59:34,560
Speaker 1: and he must have like slipped up somehow and made

1259
00:59:34,600 --> 00:59:36,480
Speaker 1: the group think that he'd be passing through New York

1260
00:59:36,520 --> 00:59:39,240
Speaker 1: for a modeling gig, and a couple of the guys

1261
00:59:39,400 --> 00:59:41,280
Speaker 1: caught him in there, and they didn't threaten for us,

1262
00:59:41,280 --> 00:59:43,400
Speaker 1: but he was so freaked out about being caught that

1263
00:59:43,480 --> 00:59:46,280
Speaker 1: he was easily convinced that he wasn't supposed to get away.

1264
00:59:46,360 --> 00:59:48,760
Speaker 1: And then that's when he agreed in quotes to go

1265
00:59:48,760 --> 00:59:51,840
Speaker 1: to North Carolina to become the living housekeeper. So the

1266
00:59:51,880 --> 00:59:54,560
Speaker 1: second time he got caught, he had fled North Carolina

1267
00:59:54,560 --> 00:59:56,760
Speaker 1: in the middle of the night and caught a flight

1268
00:59:56,760 --> 00:59:58,920
Speaker 1: to New York, and he figured they'd never think he

1269
00:59:58,960 --> 01:00:01,120
Speaker 1: was stupid enough to go back to his same apartment,

1270
01:00:01,280 --> 01:00:02,960
Speaker 1: so he thought he'd be safe there for a night.

1271
01:00:03,040 --> 01:00:05,880
Speaker 1: But they flew there immediately and caught him, and this

1272
01:00:06,000 --> 01:00:08,920
Speaker 1: time they took a more forceful approach. One guy actually

1273
01:00:09,000 --> 01:00:10,880
Speaker 1: even slept in the doorway of the apartment to make

1274
01:00:10,880 --> 01:00:13,200
Speaker 1: sure he didn't escape, which is terrifying. They made him

1275
01:00:13,200 --> 01:00:16,240
Speaker 1: sign a promisory note under dress of course, saying that

1276
01:00:16,280 --> 01:00:18,680
Speaker 1: he would be responsible for paying five hundred thousand dollars

1277
01:00:18,760 --> 01:00:21,400
Speaker 1: if he left again. And then the third time he left,

1278
01:00:21,400 --> 01:00:23,400
Speaker 1: when he finally did truly escape in the middle of

1279
01:00:23,400 --> 01:00:25,880
Speaker 1: the night on July fourth, nineteen ninety nine, a very

1280
01:00:25,960 --> 01:00:29,000
Speaker 1: fitting date for this episode, he did not go back

1281
01:00:29,040 --> 01:00:29,680
Speaker 1: to his apartment.

1282
01:00:29,800 --> 01:00:32,400
Speaker 3: Then I ran into a guy who had left the group.

1283
01:00:32,800 --> 01:00:34,440
Speaker 3: He lived out here in la and he left the

1284
01:00:34,440 --> 01:00:37,919
Speaker 3: group like four years before me. You know, they no coincidences,

1285
01:00:37,960 --> 01:00:39,880
Speaker 3: but I lit. He bumped into a friend of his

1286
01:00:40,200 --> 01:00:42,680
Speaker 3: and said, he goes, hey, you're Hoye, aren't you? And

1287
01:00:42,760 --> 01:00:45,240
Speaker 3: my friend Dara. I's like, oh my god, I'd love

1288
01:00:45,320 --> 01:00:47,160
Speaker 3: to talk to Dara. And I had to really choose

1289
01:00:47,200 --> 01:00:51,080
Speaker 3: my words carefully because I had actually come out to

1290
01:00:51,080 --> 01:00:54,919
Speaker 3: California and Dar had left before, and I had pulled

1291
01:00:55,000 --> 01:00:57,080
Speaker 3: Dar back into the group, and so I was like,

1292
01:00:57,120 --> 01:00:58,840
Speaker 3: i's gonna think I'm going to try to get him back,

1293
01:00:58,880 --> 01:01:01,640
Speaker 3: and so I had to tell his friend. I said,

1294
01:01:01,720 --> 01:01:06,040
Speaker 3: tell Dar, I'm living in LA and I'm alone and

1295
01:01:06,080 --> 01:01:08,640
Speaker 3: I'd really like to talk to him. It took about

1296
01:01:08,640 --> 01:01:12,040
Speaker 3: three weeks. He called me from his therapist. This is

1297
01:01:12,040 --> 01:01:14,360
Speaker 3: my therapist said I should call. I've been avoiding this

1298
01:01:14,680 --> 01:01:17,240
Speaker 3: and I'm like, wow, thank god you called. And so

1299
01:01:17,320 --> 01:01:19,960
Speaker 3: we started talking and he was kind of in a

1300
01:01:20,000 --> 01:01:22,880
Speaker 3: crazy livy situation. I had felt like I had outworn

1301
01:01:23,000 --> 01:01:25,800
Speaker 3: my welcome at Fabio's, he'd been too kind, and I

1302
01:01:25,880 --> 01:01:28,120
Speaker 3: was kind of needing to talk about this. So Dar

1303
01:01:28,160 --> 01:01:30,680
Speaker 3: and I moved in together and we for the first

1304
01:01:30,720 --> 01:01:34,160
Speaker 3: six months just started to deconstruct everything. It's like, remember

1305
01:01:34,160 --> 01:01:35,680
Speaker 3: when that happened? That was weird, Like what do you

1306
01:01:35,680 --> 01:01:37,880
Speaker 3: think was going on there? And it was through that

1307
01:01:38,000 --> 01:01:41,520
Speaker 3: process that we have finally got to the point where

1308
01:01:41,760 --> 01:01:43,920
Speaker 3: I remember going, well, you know everyone's been saying this

1309
01:01:44,040 --> 01:01:45,920
Speaker 3: was a cult, man, I know it wasn't a cult,

1310
01:01:45,920 --> 01:01:47,600
Speaker 3: but what do you think it was? He's like, oh,

1311
01:01:47,680 --> 01:01:49,320
Speaker 3: it wasn't a cult either. I'm like, well, I go,

1312
01:01:49,360 --> 01:01:51,560
Speaker 3: do you know anything about cult? It's like no, No.

1313
01:01:51,640 --> 01:01:54,800
Speaker 3: I'm like, well, maybe I should look into it. Like,

1314
01:01:54,840 --> 01:01:56,840
Speaker 3: I know it's not one, but maybe if I look

1315
01:01:56,880 --> 01:02:00,960
Speaker 3: into it, I'll find out what it might be. And

1316
01:02:01,040 --> 01:02:03,280
Speaker 3: so that was how I found Steve Hassen's book. I

1317
01:02:03,320 --> 01:02:06,560
Speaker 3: remember going on the internet and finding the best selling

1318
01:02:06,560 --> 01:02:09,919
Speaker 3: book and it was this combating cult mynd control. And

1319
01:02:10,080 --> 01:02:13,240
Speaker 3: I also remember reading that you know this guy had

1320
01:02:13,280 --> 01:02:16,440
Speaker 3: been in the Moonies. I remember thinking, God, I actually

1321
01:02:16,480 --> 01:02:19,480
Speaker 3: remember the Moonies when I was a kid, these bald

1322
01:02:19,520 --> 01:02:23,439
Speaker 3: people in airports and orange suits, and just going got

1323
01:02:23,560 --> 01:02:25,760
Speaker 3: how could you get involved with that? Like to me,

1324
01:02:25,920 --> 01:02:29,000
Speaker 3: like oh, that's definitely a cult. And so I was

1325
01:02:29,040 --> 01:02:31,040
Speaker 3: really kind of dubious with I should even get it,

1326
01:02:31,080 --> 01:02:33,680
Speaker 3: because I said, well, that no way relates to what

1327
01:02:33,720 --> 01:02:36,200
Speaker 3: I went through. But he had so many great reviews,

1328
01:02:36,240 --> 01:02:38,280
Speaker 3: I figured, let me just give it a shot. Maybe

1329
01:02:38,280 --> 01:02:42,120
Speaker 3: I'll just learned something. And the first sixty seventy pages

1330
01:02:42,280 --> 01:02:44,880
Speaker 3: was how he had been indoctrinated and you could have

1331
01:02:44,960 --> 01:02:48,920
Speaker 3: just changed the names, and I was like, holy shit, wow.

1332
01:02:49,400 --> 01:02:52,680
Speaker 3: And finally I had the diagnosis you know, I finally knew,

1333
01:02:53,400 --> 01:02:55,280
Speaker 3: like not only had I been in a cult, but

1334
01:02:55,280 --> 01:02:58,120
Speaker 3: I had been in a textbook cult. Like I thought

1335
01:02:58,120 --> 01:03:00,720
Speaker 3: at least maybe I'd been in a special cult, not

1336
01:03:00,760 --> 01:03:05,960
Speaker 3: even specially just textbook and all of that was horrifying,

1337
01:03:06,040 --> 01:03:08,360
Speaker 3: but it was the beginning of the recovery. And then

1338
01:03:08,360 --> 01:03:11,040
Speaker 3: I eventually, you know, kind of got my balls back

1339
01:03:11,080 --> 01:03:13,320
Speaker 3: and I started my voice back, and I actually went

1340
01:03:13,360 --> 01:03:15,000
Speaker 3: on the attack with the group, and then I sued

1341
01:03:15,040 --> 01:03:15,919
Speaker 3: them and took them down.

1342
01:03:16,280 --> 01:03:17,520
Speaker 1: You did, Oh, I didn't know that.

1343
01:03:17,640 --> 01:03:20,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, And then you know, now twenty years later, going

1344
01:03:20,600 --> 01:03:23,520
Speaker 3: back and visiting some of these people, and they're still

1345
01:03:23,560 --> 01:03:25,960
Speaker 3: caught up in it. Really. You know, i'd say, out

1346
01:03:26,000 --> 01:03:29,720
Speaker 3: of our group of like we were never big. I mean,

1347
01:03:29,720 --> 01:03:32,160
Speaker 3: it's probably closer to fifty, but with the turnover, maybe

1348
01:03:32,200 --> 01:03:35,600
Speaker 3: one hundred four maybe five can admit it was a

1349
01:03:35,640 --> 01:03:38,040
Speaker 3: Coulton knows. So that word means they can talk about it.

1350
01:03:38,240 --> 01:03:42,880
Speaker 3: My gosh, everyone else is still in some form of trauma, denial, delusion,

1351
01:03:43,160 --> 01:03:47,520
Speaker 3: avoidance whatever. That is to me the most tragic part

1352
01:03:47,520 --> 01:03:49,640
Speaker 3: of the story. Yeah. So, like I was talking to

1353
01:03:49,680 --> 01:03:53,720
Speaker 3: this guy recently and he's definitely spin doctor. This whole

1354
01:03:53,720 --> 01:03:55,720
Speaker 3: thing and saying, you know, because he's actually hadn't made

1355
01:03:55,720 --> 01:03:58,520
Speaker 3: a pretty good life for himself and been successful, and

1356
01:03:58,680 --> 01:04:00,680
Speaker 3: it's like, oh, you know, Frederick is the greatest teacher

1357
01:04:00,680 --> 01:04:03,280
Speaker 3: I've ever had. And I'm like, you know what, I'm

1358
01:04:03,280 --> 01:04:05,400
Speaker 3: not saying there weren't some good things that happened, because

1359
01:04:05,440 --> 01:04:07,600
Speaker 3: I think it's really important when you tell these stories,

1360
01:04:08,080 --> 01:04:11,240
Speaker 3: you have to talk about the good things because everyone's

1361
01:04:11,240 --> 01:04:12,600
Speaker 3: got to know, like, why did you say?

1362
01:04:12,800 --> 01:04:13,280
Speaker 1: Totally?

1363
01:04:13,440 --> 01:04:16,320
Speaker 3: So that's a better question rather than why did you

1364
01:04:16,360 --> 01:04:18,720
Speaker 3: just leave? It'd be like why did you stay? Because

1365
01:04:18,800 --> 01:04:21,160
Speaker 3: that's a really important question to answer because there are

1366
01:04:21,200 --> 01:04:24,160
Speaker 3: things that are really, really potentially positive that the group exposedly,

1367
01:04:24,160 --> 01:04:27,400
Speaker 3: whether it's the camaraderie, whether it's just the sense of purpose,

1368
01:04:27,920 --> 01:04:31,800
Speaker 3: the teamwork, the aspiration of doing something bigger than yourself,

1369
01:04:31,800 --> 01:04:34,439
Speaker 3: all those things are really really positive. So he's kind

1370
01:04:34,440 --> 01:04:37,800
Speaker 3: of taken that version of the whole thing. And I

1371
01:04:37,920 --> 01:04:40,240
Speaker 3: said to him, I have to look at the individual,

1372
01:04:40,640 --> 01:04:45,040
Speaker 3: and I have to say a huge component of his personality,

1373
01:04:45,800 --> 01:04:48,800
Speaker 3: which is flat out deception. Yeah, I said, he lied

1374
01:04:48,840 --> 01:04:53,160
Speaker 3: about who he was, his name, his background, his covert

1375
01:04:53,320 --> 01:04:57,760
Speaker 3: drug use, his covert sexual forays, He got aids, he

1376
01:04:57,880 --> 01:05:00,040
Speaker 3: lied about that when he was sick and we we

1377
01:05:00,080 --> 01:05:04,200
Speaker 3: were changing his bedsword not knowing that we potentially could

1378
01:05:04,240 --> 01:05:09,640
Speaker 3: have got infected because he was dishonest. And this guy's

1379
01:05:09,640 --> 01:05:11,800
Speaker 3: response was like, well he was human. I say, you

1380
01:05:11,800 --> 01:05:15,080
Speaker 3: know what, there's lots of humans out there that don't

1381
01:05:15,120 --> 01:05:17,440
Speaker 3: behave like that, and they certainly don't claim to be

1382
01:05:17,440 --> 01:05:19,960
Speaker 3: spiritual leaders. So I said, I'm going to have to

1383
01:05:20,000 --> 01:05:22,080
Speaker 3: agree to disagree with you on this one. And I

1384
01:05:22,120 --> 01:05:24,040
Speaker 3: could watch like no one's pushed back on him. And

1385
01:05:24,080 --> 01:05:27,200
Speaker 3: I wasn't being aggressive at all, as being very gentle,

1386
01:05:27,800 --> 01:05:29,720
Speaker 3: but I could see no one's really pushed back on

1387
01:05:29,800 --> 01:05:32,040
Speaker 3: him because he's spoken with the other guys who all

1388
01:05:32,600 --> 01:05:35,840
Speaker 3: support this guy tribe that basically says we don't have

1389
01:05:35,920 --> 01:05:39,160
Speaker 3: to look back and admit on some level we all

1390
01:05:39,200 --> 01:05:42,800
Speaker 3: got taken. Yeah, the key to recovery is the humility

1391
01:05:42,880 --> 01:05:46,840
Speaker 3: to admit something happened. If you can't admit that, no

1392
01:05:46,920 --> 01:05:49,520
Speaker 3: healing takes place, and the trauma stays in place, and

1393
01:05:49,560 --> 01:05:51,960
Speaker 3: it just kind of manifests in other areas. And it's

1394
01:05:52,120 --> 01:05:57,240
Speaker 3: absolutely awful. Witnessing that again two decades later has been

1395
01:05:57,480 --> 01:06:01,920
Speaker 3: triggering and disturbing and also empowering and I'm just grateful

1396
01:06:01,960 --> 01:06:05,760
Speaker 3: I'm not where they are. I hope in telling the

1397
01:06:05,840 --> 01:06:09,280
Speaker 3: story that maybe some eyes will get opened, and certainly

1398
01:06:09,920 --> 01:06:12,960
Speaker 3: I think that their people around them might start to go, oh,

1399
01:06:13,000 --> 01:06:14,360
Speaker 3: I think we need to talk about this.

1400
01:06:14,680 --> 01:06:16,680
Speaker 1: Yeah. I hope the more you tell your story, the

1401
01:06:16,680 --> 01:06:19,720
Speaker 1: more impact it will have those people and others.

1402
01:06:19,960 --> 01:06:23,400
Speaker 3: Yeah. I was talking to someone who actually has gone

1403
01:06:23,400 --> 01:06:25,520
Speaker 3: through this and it has been on a recovery path,

1404
01:06:25,520 --> 01:06:28,320
Speaker 3: and they were deciding whether to talk about their experience.

1405
01:06:28,320 --> 01:06:30,520
Speaker 3: I said, I would never try to convince anyone of

1406
01:06:30,560 --> 01:06:35,040
Speaker 3: doing anything, but I certainly know if nothing gets said,

1407
01:06:35,160 --> 01:06:35,960
Speaker 3: nothing changes.

1408
01:06:36,600 --> 01:06:38,720
Speaker 5: Ooh, I've never heard of public.

1409
01:06:38,920 --> 01:06:42,000
Speaker 3: If you talk about it, there's a chance thanks might alter.

1410
01:06:42,560 --> 01:06:45,640
Speaker 3: So I'm taking my chances. I'm going to talk about it.

1411
01:06:45,720 --> 01:06:48,520
Speaker 1: That's awesome. You're such a good storyteller. I've been enthralled

1412
01:06:48,600 --> 01:06:49,240
Speaker 1: this entire time.

1413
01:06:49,240 --> 01:06:50,760
Speaker 5: I know, I forgot what we're doing a podcast.

1414
01:06:52,840 --> 01:06:54,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's why I'm in the movie business. I mean,

1415
01:06:55,080 --> 01:06:58,880
Speaker 3: this experience got me fascinated with telling stories because I

1416
01:06:58,880 --> 01:07:00,840
Speaker 3: would tell this story like, oh my god, it's something

1417
01:07:00,880 --> 01:07:02,800
Speaker 3: you're in a movie. I'm like, no, wonder I like

1418
01:07:02,880 --> 01:07:05,440
Speaker 3: movies so much because that's literally in one most for

1419
01:07:05,560 --> 01:07:08,000
Speaker 3: twenty years of my life. And it got me fascinated

1420
01:07:08,520 --> 01:07:11,640
Speaker 3: with that because it's really how we educate each other.

1421
01:07:11,680 --> 01:07:14,400
Speaker 3: I mean, you come home, you know if you're married

1422
01:07:14,480 --> 01:07:16,800
Speaker 3: or with a partner, and you say, oh, you're not

1423
01:07:16,800 --> 01:07:18,960
Speaker 3: gonna be having them today, and you tell a story.

1424
01:07:19,680 --> 01:07:21,920
Speaker 3: That's how we communicate, that's how we teach you to

1425
01:07:22,240 --> 01:07:26,920
Speaker 3: that's how we find a connection and usually over the

1426
01:07:26,960 --> 01:07:32,040
Speaker 3: tough times. Pain is the most intense bonding component. If

1427
01:07:32,080 --> 01:07:36,040
Speaker 3: you feel someone can see you and can relate to

1428
01:07:36,080 --> 01:07:39,440
Speaker 3: your pain, that's a much tighter bond. Then let's just

1429
01:07:39,480 --> 01:07:41,439
Speaker 3: go drink and go barty and have a great time.

1430
01:07:41,640 --> 01:07:42,240
Speaker 3: It's not the.

1431
01:07:42,160 --> 01:07:44,200
Speaker 5: Same thing, absolutely, what is not.

1432
01:07:44,880 --> 01:07:46,600
Speaker 1: Please tell that to the men I date who won't

1433
01:07:46,600 --> 01:07:50,800
Speaker 1: share their pain with me, give me a maybe faby

1434
01:07:50,840 --> 01:07:51,920
Speaker 1: I will share his fame with me.

1435
01:07:54,960 --> 01:07:57,800
Speaker 2: I really liked reading that your mom you got to

1436
01:07:57,920 --> 01:07:58,640
Speaker 2: make up with her.

1437
01:07:58,800 --> 01:08:00,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, one of the compone into the story that I

1438
01:08:00,960 --> 01:08:03,560
Speaker 3: feel gets left out and when I try to do it,

1439
01:08:03,600 --> 01:08:06,680
Speaker 3: I'm really going to try to incorporate. This is the

1440
01:08:06,800 --> 01:08:10,400
Speaker 3: ripple effect. Like when you go down this journey, anyone

1441
01:08:10,440 --> 01:08:12,760
Speaker 3: who cares about you involuntarily it gets dragged on this

1442
01:08:12,840 --> 01:08:14,440
Speaker 3: journey with you. It's like having a drug attic in

1443
01:08:14,480 --> 01:08:16,760
Speaker 3: the family in that sense. And so when you are

1444
01:08:16,840 --> 01:08:19,960
Speaker 3: someone who loves someone and you see them making choices,

1445
01:08:20,080 --> 01:08:23,320
Speaker 3: albeit under influence whatever you may want to the situation

1446
01:08:23,479 --> 01:08:25,760
Speaker 3: may be, but things that are self destructive and self

1447
01:08:25,800 --> 01:08:29,240
Speaker 3: sabotaging and you feel powerless to stop them, you get

1448
01:08:29,280 --> 01:08:34,080
Speaker 3: deeply wounded. So for me, in the recovery process, besides

1449
01:08:34,120 --> 01:08:35,640
Speaker 3: all the homework, Guy's going to try to get my

1450
01:08:35,680 --> 01:08:38,719
Speaker 3: shit together, so to speak, and answer all those questions,

1451
01:08:38,720 --> 01:08:40,640
Speaker 3: because you know, not only did I try to have

1452
01:08:40,720 --> 01:08:44,160
Speaker 3: to figure out how to forgive myself, but also communicate

1453
01:08:44,200 --> 01:08:46,439
Speaker 3: this story to all my friends who are looking at

1454
01:08:46,439 --> 01:08:49,680
Speaker 3: me like dude, what the fuck happened? Right? But then

1455
01:08:49,680 --> 01:08:51,879
Speaker 3: the other side of it, which I never really imagined

1456
01:08:51,880 --> 01:08:55,680
Speaker 3: to going through it was seeing how wounded they were

1457
01:08:55,920 --> 01:08:59,600
Speaker 3: all from this experience. Yeah, and that's just something I

1458
01:08:59,680 --> 01:09:03,000
Speaker 3: have to live with because I can't force them to

1459
01:09:03,080 --> 01:09:05,439
Speaker 3: heal that part. And so much of the focus is

1460
01:09:05,479 --> 01:09:06,840
Speaker 3: like I just want to know you're okay. What you

1461
01:09:06,880 --> 01:09:08,920
Speaker 3: want to do again? I'm like, listen, I'm doing okay,

1462
01:09:09,080 --> 01:09:10,080
Speaker 3: how are you doing? What do you mean?

1463
01:09:10,200 --> 01:09:10,439
Speaker 2: Fine?

1464
01:09:10,680 --> 01:09:15,320
Speaker 3: Fine? And I can see the wound. And that part's

1465
01:09:15,360 --> 01:09:20,360
Speaker 3: hard because it's counterintuitive in the sense that when someone

1466
01:09:20,400 --> 01:09:22,920
Speaker 3: goes through something the more elaborate side of the equation,

1467
01:09:23,600 --> 01:09:26,439
Speaker 3: everyone carries so much guilt thinking they should have done something,

1468
01:09:26,479 --> 01:09:29,920
Speaker 3: maybe more whatever. And I try to tell the story

1469
01:09:29,960 --> 01:09:32,439
Speaker 3: and communicate with them to say, there's nothing you could

1470
01:09:32,479 --> 01:09:34,880
Speaker 3: get one. We were all way above our pay grade

1471
01:09:35,200 --> 01:09:37,760
Speaker 3: and dealing with the saying thing, none of us, what

1472
01:09:37,880 --> 01:09:40,400
Speaker 3: the fuck was going Yeah, none of us, So it's

1473
01:09:40,479 --> 01:09:43,559
Speaker 3: no one's fault. Yeah, But I still can't do that

1474
01:09:43,640 --> 01:09:47,160
Speaker 3: healing for them. And that's the part that's hard. And

1475
01:09:47,200 --> 01:09:50,200
Speaker 3: that ripple effect I think is really important because people

1476
01:09:50,800 --> 01:09:53,400
Speaker 3: like when we talk about these cultic relationships and we

1477
01:09:53,439 --> 01:09:55,240
Speaker 3: talk about the severe ones, like the ones that we

1478
01:09:55,320 --> 01:09:59,400
Speaker 3: have gone through, when you then count in the ripple effect,

1479
01:09:59,479 --> 01:10:02,439
Speaker 3: I mean, this is having a monstrous effect on our

1480
01:10:02,439 --> 01:10:05,559
Speaker 3: whole psyche, of our whole society. And so this is

1481
01:10:05,600 --> 01:10:07,639
Speaker 3: not going to go away. This is something that really

1482
01:10:07,640 --> 01:10:10,160
Speaker 3: needs to be dealt with. I'm trying very consciously to

1483
01:10:10,200 --> 01:10:12,759
Speaker 3: put in certain things, like at Princeton and other schools

1484
01:10:12,920 --> 01:10:15,880
Speaker 3: in the curriculum to teach courses on mind control and

1485
01:10:15,920 --> 01:10:19,280
Speaker 3: influence techniques and manipulation tactics just kind of common sense

1486
01:10:19,360 --> 01:10:22,280
Speaker 3: things that you could teach a kid even at thirteen fourteen,

1487
01:10:22,680 --> 01:10:24,920
Speaker 3: so they'd have a couple of red flags available to

1488
01:10:24,960 --> 01:10:28,960
Speaker 3: them that when they're experiencing someone kind of sweeping them

1489
01:10:28,960 --> 01:10:32,000
Speaker 3: off their feed and being so complimentary and making them

1490
01:10:32,000 --> 01:10:35,520
Speaker 3: feel good really fast, go oh, this could be a manipulation.

1491
01:10:35,880 --> 01:10:36,920
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah.

1492
01:10:36,960 --> 01:10:40,920
Speaker 2: The problem is narcissists are so fun, right, It's like

1493
01:10:40,960 --> 01:10:43,160
Speaker 2: that should be the warning if anybody's making you have

1494
01:10:43,320 --> 01:10:45,720
Speaker 2: way too much fun, way too fast.

1495
01:10:45,800 --> 01:10:47,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, but no one tells you. And the other

1496
01:10:47,920 --> 01:10:51,040
Speaker 3: side of it is like, my control works on everyone,

1497
01:10:51,080 --> 01:10:52,840
Speaker 3: but you have to be receptive. So the only time

1498
01:10:52,880 --> 01:10:55,840
Speaker 3: you're really receptive usually is if you're in some mode

1499
01:10:55,880 --> 01:10:59,160
Speaker 3: of seeking answers on some level, and if you encounter

1500
01:10:59,360 --> 01:11:01,679
Speaker 3: a person or group that, from your point of view,

1501
01:11:02,240 --> 01:11:05,400
Speaker 3: seems to be giving you those answers, that seems like

1502
01:11:05,439 --> 01:11:08,760
Speaker 3: a great thing. So I tell people when you're in

1503
01:11:08,800 --> 01:11:11,280
Speaker 3: that mode of seeking, everyone's like, oh, that's awesome, dude,

1504
01:11:11,280 --> 01:11:13,320
Speaker 3: it's so great asking the bigger questions why I am

1505
01:11:13,320 --> 01:11:15,960
Speaker 3: a year? What's it all about? Like, that's all great,

1506
01:11:16,000 --> 01:11:18,679
Speaker 3: but you should also be saying, now, be careful though,

1507
01:11:19,040 --> 01:11:22,400
Speaker 3: it's awesome, you're you're in that phase. Awesome, But every

1508
01:11:22,640 --> 01:11:25,080
Speaker 3: manipulator out there will see you as a target and

1509
01:11:25,120 --> 01:11:27,599
Speaker 3: they'll come after you, So be careful, right, No one

1510
01:11:27,640 --> 01:11:31,000
Speaker 3: says No one says that, And I think that's a

1511
01:11:31,000 --> 01:11:34,200
Speaker 3: really important component. And until we make this kind of

1512
01:11:34,360 --> 01:11:36,960
Speaker 3: more common language of all of ours, we're all just

1513
01:11:37,000 --> 01:11:40,960
Speaker 3: so vulnerable all the time, and we're kind of predisposed

1514
01:11:41,840 --> 01:11:46,240
Speaker 3: as humans to follow the nature of us as humans

1515
01:11:46,240 --> 01:11:49,000
Speaker 3: there we're kind of social creatures. We want to get along,

1516
01:11:49,040 --> 01:11:50,639
Speaker 3: to get along, and we just want to be part

1517
01:11:50,640 --> 01:11:52,560
Speaker 3: of the pack. And so it's just kind of a

1518
01:11:52,640 --> 01:11:55,080
Speaker 3: DNA thing that if you want to become truly independent

1519
01:11:55,640 --> 01:11:58,799
Speaker 3: and become maybe a leader of your own life or others,

1520
01:11:59,080 --> 01:12:02,439
Speaker 3: you have to really work against that preprogramming. And we

1521
01:12:02,479 --> 01:12:06,040
Speaker 3: don't realize that how hardwired it is to follow.

1522
01:12:05,840 --> 01:12:07,479
Speaker 1: Which is not to say we shouldn't be a part

1523
01:12:07,520 --> 01:12:10,760
Speaker 1: of groups, not we just shouldn't devote ourselves to one

1524
01:12:10,800 --> 01:12:13,320
Speaker 1: and one only that controls our entire lives well exactly.

1525
01:12:13,360 --> 01:12:17,120
Speaker 3: And it's just acknowledging that there is some predisposition there

1526
01:12:17,200 --> 01:12:19,840
Speaker 3: that you need to be aware of that can potentially

1527
01:12:20,400 --> 01:12:23,160
Speaker 3: self sabotage and like anything, if you know about it,

1528
01:12:23,240 --> 01:12:25,200
Speaker 3: you can have a fighting chance to work with it.

1529
01:12:25,240 --> 01:12:28,280
Speaker 3: But if it's just unconscious, it's the same sort of

1530
01:12:28,280 --> 01:12:32,000
Speaker 3: thing why people find unhealthy relationships. It's familiar even though

1531
01:12:32,000 --> 01:12:35,080
Speaker 3: it's unhealthy. I just oh, I know what this feels like.

1532
01:12:35,120 --> 01:12:36,559
Speaker 3: It feels like what I grew up with.

1533
01:12:37,040 --> 01:12:39,639
Speaker 1: Yeh, that feels safe, no matter how unsafe it is.

1534
01:12:39,840 --> 01:12:42,280
Speaker 3: Yeah. I mean, so all those dynamics I think are

1535
01:12:42,280 --> 01:12:45,760
Speaker 3: really important to and that's why these stories I think

1536
01:12:45,760 --> 01:12:49,040
Speaker 3: are great teaching tools. Because of the extreme nature of them,

1537
01:12:49,439 --> 01:12:51,960
Speaker 3: it's sometimes easier to see the more subtle version in

1538
01:12:51,960 --> 01:12:54,200
Speaker 3: your own life. And that's why I think it's important,

1539
01:12:54,320 --> 01:12:56,519
Speaker 3: Like the three of us, we tell our stories because

1540
01:12:57,040 --> 01:13:00,600
Speaker 3: they potentially can awaken people to say, oh wait and

1541
01:13:00,720 --> 01:13:03,040
Speaker 3: actually is very very relatable to me, and that really

1542
01:13:03,040 --> 01:13:06,840
Speaker 3: resonates with something. But it's just a more subtle version

1543
01:13:06,880 --> 01:13:07,120
Speaker 3: of it.

1544
01:13:09,120 --> 01:13:12,000
Speaker 1: Well, this is awesome. Do you have any social media

1545
01:13:12,000 --> 01:13:12,800
Speaker 1: you would like to share?

1546
01:13:14,640 --> 01:13:19,439
Speaker 3: Well, I'm on Instagram at hot rich, I'm on Facebook.

1547
01:13:19,439 --> 01:13:21,720
Speaker 3: But yeah, I'm not a huge social media person, but

1548
01:13:22,400 --> 01:13:25,160
Speaker 3: I eventually want to do some public speaking and that

1549
01:13:25,200 --> 01:13:26,880
Speaker 3: sort of thing and kind of talk to kids and

1550
01:13:27,360 --> 01:13:30,320
Speaker 3: build some awareness in these type of things. I always

1551
01:13:30,400 --> 01:13:32,160
Speaker 3: love doing the movies and all that sort of thing.

1552
01:13:32,240 --> 01:13:35,200
Speaker 3: I really love, but this is kind of my pet project.

1553
01:13:35,600 --> 01:13:37,519
Speaker 3: I get to work on cases where I help families

1554
01:13:37,520 --> 01:13:40,280
Speaker 3: get their kids out of cultic situations. That's been one

1555
01:13:40,280 --> 01:13:43,880
Speaker 3: of the most healing things that I've now potentially been

1556
01:13:43,920 --> 01:13:48,679
Speaker 3: a resource for others finding healing and finding their family. Again, Listen,

1557
01:13:48,760 --> 01:13:52,120
Speaker 3: every family's got their issues and there's dysfunction, but when

1558
01:13:52,160 --> 01:13:55,320
Speaker 3: you find a common enemy, boy, the family can really

1559
01:13:55,320 --> 01:13:57,600
Speaker 3: step up sometimes. And I've watched it and witnessed it,

1560
01:13:57,640 --> 01:13:59,519
Speaker 3: and it is a beautiful thing to kind of see

1561
01:14:00,000 --> 01:14:03,439
Speaker 3: when you watch someone's critical thinking come back. The way

1562
01:14:03,479 --> 01:14:05,760
Speaker 3: I describe it is when you get indoctrinated, it's like

1563
01:14:05,760 --> 01:14:08,240
Speaker 3: a pilot light that gets turned down really really low,

1564
01:14:08,240 --> 01:14:10,639
Speaker 3: but it never goes out right. Kind of like Horton

1565
01:14:10,720 --> 01:14:13,200
Speaker 3: hears the Who, it's all the people trying to find

1566
01:14:13,240 --> 01:14:15,719
Speaker 3: some way to connect to this person, get them information

1567
01:14:15,800 --> 01:14:18,280
Speaker 3: they're not getting in this kind of secluded group thing,

1568
01:14:18,439 --> 01:14:20,840
Speaker 3: you know. And so it's like all the Who's trying

1569
01:14:20,880 --> 01:14:23,320
Speaker 3: to find like, what's the sound that's going to make Horton.

1570
01:14:23,040 --> 01:14:25,160
Speaker 1: Here understand this reference?

1571
01:14:25,680 --> 01:14:28,880
Speaker 5: I understand it's the yop.

1572
01:14:28,960 --> 01:14:30,800
Speaker 3: Right, you don't know what that little yop is going

1573
01:14:30,880 --> 01:14:34,439
Speaker 3: to be and the little who goes yop and we

1574
01:14:34,520 --> 01:14:40,639
Speaker 3: are here, we are here. That's what you're trying. Yeah,

1575
01:14:41,320 --> 01:14:44,439
Speaker 3: but it's exactly like that. You're trying to find what's

1576
01:14:44,439 --> 01:14:46,639
Speaker 3: it going to be? And when the critical thinking kicks

1577
01:14:46,680 --> 01:14:49,439
Speaker 3: back in, boy, you pull yourself out. It's like all

1578
01:14:49,439 --> 01:14:51,320
Speaker 3: of a sudden, it's like it's like the fog parts

1579
01:14:51,880 --> 01:14:54,600
Speaker 3: and the clarity comes back and the light goes back on.

1580
01:14:54,720 --> 01:14:59,400
Speaker 3: It's incredible to see. So that's been remarkable. And actually

1581
01:14:59,479 --> 01:15:02,200
Speaker 3: I've done some cases with Steve Ascidt. I read his

1582
01:15:02,240 --> 01:15:06,080
Speaker 3: book and then when he did the twenty fifth anniversary,

1583
01:15:07,040 --> 01:15:09,040
Speaker 3: I'm now one of the stories in the books. So

1584
01:15:09,080 --> 01:15:11,719
Speaker 3: it's called full circle, like the book that got me out,

1585
01:15:12,200 --> 01:15:14,280
Speaker 3: Actually I'm now part of that and I get to

1586
01:15:14,320 --> 01:15:15,920
Speaker 3: actually work with the guy who's you know, one of

1587
01:15:16,000 --> 01:15:16,840
Speaker 3: the best out there.

1588
01:15:16,920 --> 01:15:18,240
Speaker 1: So amazing.

1589
01:15:18,320 --> 01:15:20,320
Speaker 3: It's an incredible, you know, journey I've been on.

1590
01:15:20,400 --> 01:15:22,679
Speaker 5: And then I'm very grateful, Well keep up the good work.

1591
01:15:22,960 --> 01:15:25,360
Speaker 1: Well, thank you, yeah, and thanks so much for coming on.

1592
01:15:25,600 --> 01:15:28,240
Speaker 3: No my pleasure. I hope I didn't talk your ear off, guys.

1593
01:15:28,840 --> 01:15:35,879
Speaker 1: No, it's great as perfect, perfect, my ears on, thank you. Okay,

1594
01:15:36,280 --> 01:15:40,559
Speaker 1: well here we are, so Megan, it's time for the question.

1595
01:15:41,040 --> 01:15:45,120
Speaker 1: I'm ready. Do you think that you would join Eternal Values?

1596
01:15:45,439 --> 01:15:45,679
Speaker 5: Yes?

1597
01:15:46,200 --> 01:15:46,840
Speaker 1: Tell me more.

1598
01:15:47,360 --> 01:15:51,599
Speaker 2: Well, a handsome young model type taking me to clubs

1599
01:15:51,880 --> 01:15:55,000
Speaker 2: and telling me I'm awesome and giving me alcohol underage

1600
01:15:55,080 --> 01:15:58,880
Speaker 2: and partying is all I need to believe that you're

1601
01:15:58,920 --> 01:15:59,960
Speaker 2: from a different planet.

1602
01:16:01,920 --> 01:16:04,919
Speaker 1: No, I see it. Holy shit. When I was like nineteen,

1603
01:16:05,280 --> 01:16:08,200
Speaker 1: all I wanted was to go to cool clubs. Yeah,

1604
01:16:08,240 --> 01:16:10,320
Speaker 1: that was like my goal in life.

1605
01:16:10,400 --> 01:16:12,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, and god knows, I was like going to en

1606
01:16:13,080 --> 01:16:16,400
Speaker 2: Cahoots literally in Wichita on like eighteen night.

1607
01:16:17,240 --> 01:16:19,559
Speaker 5: Imagine going to Studio fifty four.

1608
01:16:19,720 --> 01:16:21,760
Speaker 1: Oh my god. I was living here and the cool

1609
01:16:21,760 --> 01:16:25,280
Speaker 1: club was what was it called? Dou was like the

1610
01:16:25,400 --> 01:16:27,920
Speaker 1: sort of the douchier one. I feel like, well they

1611
01:16:27,920 --> 01:16:33,360
Speaker 1: both were, but Hide was a med hide. It was

1612
01:16:33,360 --> 01:16:35,800
Speaker 1: like Paris Hilton goes to Hide or she had at

1613
01:16:35,880 --> 01:16:37,680
Speaker 1: least like a couple of years before or whatever. Do

1614
01:16:37,760 --> 01:16:40,920
Speaker 1: you remember my House? Oh? I think so? Yeah? Wait

1615
01:16:40,960 --> 01:16:42,519
Speaker 1: was that on like right off of Hollywood?

1616
01:16:42,640 --> 01:16:46,800
Speaker 5: Yeah?

1617
01:16:46,840 --> 01:16:50,040
Speaker 1: Bro, all the DJs. It was like Steve Aoki thought

1618
01:16:50,080 --> 01:16:53,400
Speaker 1: he was so cool? Who else? I can't Remember it

1619
01:16:53,439 --> 01:16:57,240
Speaker 1: was like bands and DJs, and I would have followed

1620
01:16:57,280 --> 01:17:00,400
Speaker 1: any of them if they played at music festival. I

1621
01:17:00,400 --> 01:17:03,160
Speaker 1: would have done anything they said, it didn't fucking matter,

1622
01:17:03,600 --> 01:17:06,719
Speaker 1: would have followed, would have joined those golds, which brings

1623
01:17:06,800 --> 01:17:10,040
Speaker 1: us right back to the band discussion. Yep, and how

1624
01:17:10,080 --> 01:17:12,600
Speaker 1: people in bands have too much power. Yeah, so it

1625
01:17:12,640 --> 01:17:16,040
Speaker 1: sounds like we both would join internal values. Oh yeah, yeah,

1626
01:17:16,160 --> 01:17:18,680
Speaker 1: I'm still so curious about the like about how the

1627
01:17:18,720 --> 01:17:22,960
Speaker 1: conversations began over. I wish I had like recordings of

1628
01:17:23,000 --> 01:17:27,840
Speaker 1: these conversations, you know, where the indoctrination's like slowly beginning. Yeah,

1629
01:17:28,080 --> 01:17:30,080
Speaker 1: it doesn't seem like the big of a deal. First,

1630
01:17:30,120 --> 01:17:31,000
Speaker 1: it's just so fast, just.

1631
01:17:31,040 --> 01:17:33,080
Speaker 5: Double planet, you guys, it's no big deal.

1632
01:17:33,600 --> 01:17:40,960
Speaker 1: It's a star, Megan so starry. Fuck yeah, a star,

1633
01:17:41,240 --> 01:17:41,679
Speaker 1: a star.

1634
01:17:42,120 --> 01:17:44,800
Speaker 2: But you know how how yeah, how does the conversation

1635
01:17:44,920 --> 01:17:47,680
Speaker 2: go from I'm from a star and so are you

1636
01:17:47,800 --> 01:17:49,320
Speaker 2: to now give me all of your money?

1637
01:17:49,560 --> 01:17:52,080
Speaker 1: Or how does it go from I like astrology and

1638
01:17:52,280 --> 01:17:57,040
Speaker 1: Eastern philosophy is interesting too, I'm communicating with the light

1639
01:17:57,200 --> 01:17:58,240
Speaker 1: people right.

1640
01:17:58,520 --> 01:18:02,200
Speaker 2: Well, it does and I can totally see myself following it.

1641
01:18:02,280 --> 01:18:06,360
Speaker 1: So yeah, yeah, ye good, Well glad we're in agreement

1642
01:18:06,520 --> 01:18:07,639
Speaker 1: on that one.

1643
01:18:07,680 --> 01:18:10,439
Speaker 2: Although I don't think I would have been as patient

1644
01:18:10,680 --> 01:18:12,920
Speaker 2: as why it was with the after he died, when

1645
01:18:12,960 --> 01:18:14,639
Speaker 2: it was no longer fun and just.

1646
01:18:14,600 --> 01:18:16,639
Speaker 5: Living in the middle of nowhere and being abused.

1647
01:18:17,080 --> 01:18:19,840
Speaker 2: I think he was being really loyal, and even my

1648
01:18:19,960 --> 01:18:23,000
Speaker 2: most loyal tendencies a big well Studio fifty.

1649
01:18:22,720 --> 01:18:23,479
Speaker 3: Four guy died.

1650
01:18:24,720 --> 01:18:27,559
Speaker 2: I'm good. But if you believed it, I know, I know,

1651
01:18:27,720 --> 01:18:31,360
Speaker 2: believe that's I guess my my thing. Like, I still

1652
01:18:31,400 --> 01:18:33,599
Speaker 2: think even if I believed it, I would be like, well,

1653
01:18:33,600 --> 01:18:36,960
Speaker 2: this isn't fun anymore, so I'll just like not.

1654
01:18:37,240 --> 01:18:39,280
Speaker 1: But that's the thing that's exactly the frog and the

1655
01:18:39,320 --> 01:18:43,200
Speaker 1: hot water analogy, because we would never join.

1656
01:18:43,560 --> 01:18:46,320
Speaker 2: You know, I'm actually saying, like, I'm impressed with his

1657
01:18:46,800 --> 01:18:49,000
Speaker 2: ability to have such little ego because he was a

1658
01:18:49,000 --> 01:18:52,800
Speaker 2: supermodel and he was a really powerful person and he

1659
01:18:52,920 --> 01:18:56,520
Speaker 2: cared so much about this group that he was basically abused.

1660
01:18:56,600 --> 01:18:59,519
Speaker 1: Yeah about Yeah, he was. He was. Well, I'm so

1661
01:18:59,600 --> 01:19:02,400
Speaker 1: glad he'd out of it. He seems to be thriving

1662
01:19:03,000 --> 01:19:06,479
Speaker 1: now and we love him. We're gonna hang love some Hoyt.

1663
01:19:07,200 --> 01:19:09,439
Speaker 1: Also love the name Hoyt. Never heard that name before.

1664
01:19:09,520 --> 01:19:10,280
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's a cool name.

1665
01:19:10,400 --> 01:19:13,439
Speaker 1: Yeah. Okay everyone, well, thank you for listening.

1666
01:19:13,560 --> 01:19:14,599
Speaker 5: Yeah, thank you for listening.

1667
01:19:14,640 --> 01:19:16,759
Speaker 2: Guys. We hope you have a great week and remember

1668
01:19:16,800 --> 01:19:19,720
Speaker 2: to follow your gut, watch out for red flags, and

1669
01:19:19,880 --> 01:19:22,040
Speaker 2: never ever trust me.

1670
01:19:22,640 --> 01:19:23,080
Speaker 4: Oh my,