1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:03,560 Speaker 1: Hi Aksha there. This week we're playing an episode from 2 00:00:03,600 --> 00:00:06,000 Speaker 1: the Zero archives, and it's all about one of my 3 00:00:06,080 --> 00:00:10,840 Speaker 1: favorite topics. Batteries. Not any old battery, but a battery 4 00:00:10,840 --> 00:00:16,160 Speaker 1: that uses rust to store energy. That's right, rust. It's 5 00:00:16,200 --> 00:00:19,120 Speaker 1: a wild sounding idea that's been pursued by Form Energy, 6 00:00:19,239 --> 00:00:21,560 Speaker 1: who have received more than nine hundred million dollars in 7 00:00:21,640 --> 00:00:25,439 Speaker 1: funding to make those batteries work. Enjoy and we'll be 8 00:00:25,520 --> 00:00:35,120 Speaker 1: back with a regular episode next week. Welcome to Zero. 9 00:00:35,600 --> 00:00:40,600 Speaker 1: I'm Aukshatrati. This week, one question, two elements and nine 10 00:00:40,640 --> 00:00:56,160 Speaker 1: hundred million dollars. Let's talk about the problem with renewable energy. 11 00:00:56,600 --> 00:01:00,200 Speaker 1: Don't worry, this is not our climate denial episode. It's 12 00:01:00,240 --> 00:01:03,720 Speaker 1: just that renewables are not always available. The sun goes away, 13 00:01:04,000 --> 00:01:07,959 Speaker 1: the wind dies down, but our demand for energy never stops. 14 00:01:08,440 --> 00:01:11,360 Speaker 1: And that mismatch is what keeps our power grid tied 15 00:01:11,360 --> 00:01:14,600 Speaker 1: to coal and natural gas. And so one solution is 16 00:01:14,640 --> 00:01:17,920 Speaker 1: to fill batteries with wind and solar power, but it's 17 00:01:18,000 --> 00:01:22,640 Speaker 1: so expensive. Today's episode is about a company trying to 18 00:01:22,720 --> 00:01:26,080 Speaker 1: change that. Form Energy started with the goal of making 19 00:01:26,120 --> 00:01:29,760 Speaker 1: a really cheap battery, one that could replace a coal 20 00:01:29,840 --> 00:01:34,280 Speaker 1: plant for a battery obsessive. It's an exciting quest forms 21 00:01:34,280 --> 00:01:38,000 Speaker 1: only limitations with the laws of science and money, and 22 00:01:38,040 --> 00:01:41,000 Speaker 1: the startup seems to have found a battery that can 23 00:01:41,120 --> 00:01:44,800 Speaker 1: be that cheap. I saw it, and the battery doesn't 24 00:01:44,800 --> 00:01:48,280 Speaker 1: look like much. Mateo Haremio, the CEO, and one of 25 00:01:48,320 --> 00:01:51,800 Speaker 1: the five co founders, showed us different prototypes, and as 26 00:01:51,800 --> 00:01:54,720 Speaker 1: we went down the line, the batteries got cheaper and 27 00:01:54,800 --> 00:01:56,000 Speaker 1: cheaper looking as well. 28 00:01:58,480 --> 00:02:01,320 Speaker 2: Well, I mean, we're more working on something that needs 29 00:02:01,320 --> 00:02:04,160 Speaker 2: to be as low cost as this battery needs to be. 30 00:02:04,480 --> 00:02:06,280 Speaker 2: You can put it to the eye test. Right, does 31 00:02:06,320 --> 00:02:09,080 Speaker 2: it look expensive? Right? Does it look expensive to produce 32 00:02:09,120 --> 00:02:11,880 Speaker 2: the parts? Does it look expensive to deploy? We are 33 00:02:11,919 --> 00:02:14,600 Speaker 2: passing the eye test. This does not look expensive and 34 00:02:14,680 --> 00:02:15,160 Speaker 2: it works. 35 00:02:16,400 --> 00:02:20,000 Speaker 1: I should not have left, but it was shocking. While 36 00:02:20,080 --> 00:02:23,160 Speaker 1: lithium ion battery facilities, which is the battery that goes 37 00:02:23,160 --> 00:02:27,160 Speaker 1: into smartphones and electric cars, requires you to wear a 38 00:02:27,200 --> 00:02:30,839 Speaker 1: hairnet and a clean suit, this form battery was out 39 00:02:30,880 --> 00:02:33,600 Speaker 1: in the open and it just looked like coke bubbling 40 00:02:33,680 --> 00:02:34,919 Speaker 1: in a plastic milk bottley. 41 00:02:35,040 --> 00:02:37,120 Speaker 3: In that case is from the side, you'll see oxygen 42 00:02:37,160 --> 00:02:39,880 Speaker 3: bubbles fizzing up from the bottom and accumulating and then 43 00:02:39,880 --> 00:02:42,760 Speaker 3: they're eventually sort of just removed from the out. 44 00:02:43,040 --> 00:02:47,200 Speaker 1: That's Billy Woodford, the chief technology officer, describing the iron 45 00:02:47,280 --> 00:02:48,600 Speaker 1: air battery. 46 00:02:48,680 --> 00:02:49,160 Speaker 2: What I was. 47 00:02:49,160 --> 00:02:54,840 Speaker 1: Seeing was rusting in action. Form Energy's big innovation. Rusting 48 00:02:55,000 --> 00:02:59,119 Speaker 1: is a sign of iron slowly aging. It's iron combining 49 00:02:59,160 --> 00:03:03,480 Speaker 1: with oxygen becoming iron oxide. It's not a desirable reaction 50 00:03:03,760 --> 00:03:08,079 Speaker 1: and it happens passively, but the chemical reaction is actually 51 00:03:08,160 --> 00:03:13,320 Speaker 1: releasing energy very slowly. Form Energy has found a way 52 00:03:13,360 --> 00:03:16,120 Speaker 1: to speed up the reaction in a controlled way and 53 00:03:16,280 --> 00:03:19,880 Speaker 1: draw out the energy as electrons. When I visited FORM 54 00:03:19,960 --> 00:03:22,800 Speaker 1: I went on a tour with two of the co founders, Matteo, 55 00:03:23,000 --> 00:03:26,640 Speaker 1: who you heard defending the battery's appearance, and Billy Woodford, 56 00:03:26,680 --> 00:03:29,640 Speaker 1: who's the chief technology officer. Then we sat down to 57 00:03:29,680 --> 00:03:32,040 Speaker 1: talk about the scale of the problem that Form Energy 58 00:03:32,120 --> 00:03:35,960 Speaker 1: is trying to solve, challenges of new battery chemistry, and 59 00:03:36,440 --> 00:03:39,920 Speaker 1: what goes into starting a company that has attracted nearly 60 00:03:40,040 --> 00:03:56,480 Speaker 1: nine hundred million dollars in investments. Matteo, welcome to Zero, 61 00:03:56,680 --> 00:03:58,880 Speaker 1: Thanks atchat great to be here, and so Mateo, this 62 00:03:58,960 --> 00:04:01,640 Speaker 1: is not your first battery company. What is your story 63 00:04:01,720 --> 00:04:02,240 Speaker 1: coming here? 64 00:04:02,480 --> 00:04:05,040 Speaker 2: This is my third battery company, and I've been in 65 00:04:05,080 --> 00:04:07,960 Speaker 2: battery it's almost twenty years now, and I saw the 66 00:04:08,040 --> 00:04:10,720 Speaker 2: impact that batteries could have and I hoped one day 67 00:04:10,720 --> 00:04:12,920 Speaker 2: would have when I first started working on them in 68 00:04:12,920 --> 00:04:16,120 Speaker 2: two thousand and four. So I can't really explain it 69 00:04:16,160 --> 00:04:19,280 Speaker 2: other than they've just captured my imagination and I seem 70 00:04:19,360 --> 00:04:21,479 Speaker 2: to have a well of curiosity about batteries that I 71 00:04:21,520 --> 00:04:24,880 Speaker 2: don't have for much else. But just before form, I 72 00:04:24,920 --> 00:04:26,919 Speaker 2: was at Tessa for a number of years and I 73 00:04:26,960 --> 00:04:29,800 Speaker 2: started what became the Tesla Energy Effort there, so the 74 00:04:29,839 --> 00:04:33,599 Speaker 2: grid storage component of that business, And when I left, 75 00:04:33,720 --> 00:04:36,320 Speaker 2: I started thinking about what does come next for energy 76 00:04:36,320 --> 00:04:39,680 Speaker 2: storage on the grid. The energy transition was very much 77 00:04:39,760 --> 00:04:42,159 Speaker 2: upon us then, and I felt like I could see 78 00:04:42,160 --> 00:04:44,479 Speaker 2: the direction that things were going to be going, and 79 00:04:44,520 --> 00:04:47,400 Speaker 2: it was clear that there was a hole, an opportunity, 80 00:04:47,440 --> 00:04:52,120 Speaker 2: frankly in the broader space for the multi day type storage, 81 00:04:52,160 --> 00:04:54,400 Speaker 2: because that's what you need to be able to in 82 00:04:54,440 --> 00:04:57,680 Speaker 2: the end replace and retire all of the thermal generation 83 00:04:57,880 --> 00:05:00,640 Speaker 2: on the grid that cold the natural gas. From the beginning, 84 00:05:00,720 --> 00:05:02,880 Speaker 2: the goal was what kind of battery lets you replace 85 00:05:02,920 --> 00:05:05,360 Speaker 2: a coal plant? That's as simple as we could sort 86 00:05:05,400 --> 00:05:06,240 Speaker 2: of state the mission. 87 00:05:06,800 --> 00:05:10,520 Speaker 1: What Mateo says about multi day storage is really about money. 88 00:05:11,000 --> 00:05:13,840 Speaker 1: In principle, you can use any battery to store any 89 00:05:13,920 --> 00:05:18,040 Speaker 1: amount of electricity you want, but it is currently uneconomical 90 00:05:18,120 --> 00:05:20,960 Speaker 1: to use lithium ion batteries to store any more than 91 00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:25,200 Speaker 1: a few hours worth of electricity. Farm Energy's battery uses 92 00:05:25,279 --> 00:05:27,960 Speaker 1: iron and air, and that means it can be one 93 00:05:28,080 --> 00:05:31,320 Speaker 1: seventh the price of today's lithium ion batteries. That would 94 00:05:31,360 --> 00:05:34,000 Speaker 1: make it cheap enough to build huge batteries for storing 95 00:05:34,080 --> 00:05:37,840 Speaker 1: multiple days worth of solar and wind power, which could 96 00:05:37,839 --> 00:05:40,400 Speaker 1: eliminate the use of most fossil fuel power plants. 97 00:05:41,640 --> 00:05:44,200 Speaker 2: We did not start with iron air as the chemistry. 98 00:05:44,480 --> 00:05:48,000 Speaker 2: We were looking at other options simultaneously to that one. 99 00:05:48,040 --> 00:05:50,039 Speaker 2: It was one of the earliest contenders that we could 100 00:05:50,080 --> 00:05:53,239 Speaker 2: think of, but we really started with that problem statement, 101 00:05:53,400 --> 00:05:55,719 Speaker 2: not with the technology in hand that we were sure 102 00:05:56,160 --> 00:05:58,719 Speaker 2: we're sort of force fit into the market. And the 103 00:05:58,839 --> 00:06:02,000 Speaker 2: other major bet that we make was that this would 104 00:06:02,040 --> 00:06:06,279 Speaker 2: become relevant in a time frame that was near enough. 105 00:06:06,560 --> 00:06:09,359 Speaker 1: Right, So what was the timeframe that you had in mind, 106 00:06:09,920 --> 00:06:12,800 Speaker 1: Given you've worked in a couple of battery companies before this, 107 00:06:12,920 --> 00:06:15,360 Speaker 1: you know when it came to form, how long did 108 00:06:15,400 --> 00:06:17,239 Speaker 1: you think it's going to take to build this iron 109 00:06:17,279 --> 00:06:17,880 Speaker 1: air battery. 110 00:06:18,120 --> 00:06:21,400 Speaker 2: Well, my assumption was ten years. That's how long any 111 00:06:21,920 --> 00:06:24,360 Speaker 2: hardware takes to really make an impact at scale. And 112 00:06:25,320 --> 00:06:28,359 Speaker 2: we are doing this because of impact, not because we 113 00:06:28,440 --> 00:06:30,080 Speaker 2: want to be able to show, you know, prove that 114 00:06:30,120 --> 00:06:33,240 Speaker 2: the chemistry works. That's quite trivial in fact, and impact requires, 115 00:06:33,279 --> 00:06:35,200 Speaker 2: of course that we manufacture at scale and that we 116 00:06:35,279 --> 00:06:38,320 Speaker 2: deploy at scale. So that was a timescale that we approached. 117 00:06:38,480 --> 00:06:41,640 Speaker 2: I will say, however, that the market moved faster than 118 00:06:41,760 --> 00:06:44,600 Speaker 2: I think any of us anticipated. We thought it would 119 00:06:44,600 --> 00:06:47,320 Speaker 2: be relevant in a ten year timescale, but looking at 120 00:06:47,360 --> 00:06:49,520 Speaker 2: just how fast it's moved over the first five years 121 00:06:49,520 --> 00:06:53,280 Speaker 2: of our existence has been validating and it's only accelerating. 122 00:06:53,400 --> 00:06:55,480 Speaker 1: And how are you doing on the ten year timeline 123 00:06:55,600 --> 00:06:58,040 Speaker 1: of making the battery a commercial product. 124 00:06:58,240 --> 00:07:00,920 Speaker 2: We are on schedule effect, if anything were a bit 125 00:07:00,960 --> 00:07:05,600 Speaker 2: ahead of schedule. We have been lucky. There's always a 126 00:07:05,640 --> 00:07:07,960 Speaker 2: certain amount of luck anytime you're trying something brand new, 127 00:07:08,440 --> 00:07:10,720 Speaker 2: and we have been fortunate to turn over a couple 128 00:07:10,720 --> 00:07:12,280 Speaker 2: of cards that have come up the way that we 129 00:07:12,320 --> 00:07:15,080 Speaker 2: hoped it would. On the other hand, you make your 130 00:07:15,080 --> 00:07:17,400 Speaker 2: own luck and doesn't happen by accident that you make 131 00:07:17,400 --> 00:07:19,800 Speaker 2: a lot of linear progress. But the other reason that 132 00:07:19,800 --> 00:07:22,000 Speaker 2: we're able to do that is on the market side 133 00:07:22,000 --> 00:07:24,520 Speaker 2: of things, we understood what success looked like. We didn't 134 00:07:24,600 --> 00:07:28,680 Speaker 2: wonder if a certain combination of specifications would succeed in 135 00:07:28,720 --> 00:07:31,480 Speaker 2: the market. And that's because of the investment that we 136 00:07:31,520 --> 00:07:34,120 Speaker 2: made very early on in the deep analytics, and this 137 00:07:34,160 --> 00:07:37,600 Speaker 2: is thanks to our co founder Marko Ferrara. The functionality 138 00:07:37,600 --> 00:07:40,760 Speaker 2: that he built in the models allowed us to really 139 00:07:40,840 --> 00:07:43,520 Speaker 2: understand those trade offs and be very precise about how 140 00:07:43,520 --> 00:07:45,880 Speaker 2: to make them so that when billion team are in 141 00:07:45,920 --> 00:07:49,800 Speaker 2: the lab working with the chemistry, they know how one 142 00:07:49,880 --> 00:07:53,120 Speaker 2: dollar of capex trades off and the curve on which 143 00:07:53,160 --> 00:07:56,640 Speaker 2: it lies with one point of roundtrip efficiency. 144 00:07:57,160 --> 00:08:00,320 Speaker 1: That's a lot of jargon. What Mateo is saying that 145 00:08:00,600 --> 00:08:04,240 Speaker 1: whether a battery succeeds commercially or not depends on its 146 00:08:04,400 --> 00:08:10,040 Speaker 1: upfront cost, also known as capital expenditure or capex. It's 147 00:08:10,040 --> 00:08:13,320 Speaker 1: why Marco puts so much care into spreadsheets that model 148 00:08:13,640 --> 00:08:17,800 Speaker 1: how changes that form mikes to its battery affect its price. 149 00:08:18,440 --> 00:08:21,080 Speaker 1: Another factor that plays a role in the battery's success 150 00:08:21,280 --> 00:08:25,040 Speaker 1: is so called round trip efficiency, which is simply how 151 00:08:25,120 --> 00:08:28,200 Speaker 1: much electricity you get back from the battery for every 152 00:08:28,360 --> 00:08:31,400 Speaker 1: unit of energy you put in. You may think that 153 00:08:31,440 --> 00:08:34,400 Speaker 1: you should get all of it back one hundred percent 154 00:08:34,600 --> 00:08:38,000 Speaker 1: round trip efficiency, but the laws of physics and chemistry 155 00:08:38,080 --> 00:08:41,760 Speaker 1: do not allow that. There will always be some losses. 156 00:08:42,360 --> 00:08:44,960 Speaker 1: If the losses are like twenty five percent, then the 157 00:08:44,960 --> 00:08:47,920 Speaker 1: cost of running the battery increases quite a lot. If 158 00:08:47,960 --> 00:08:50,680 Speaker 1: the losses are less than ten percent, then it's a 159 00:08:50,760 --> 00:08:55,600 Speaker 1: much more manageable situation. Okay, so let's look at the 160 00:08:55,600 --> 00:08:59,800 Speaker 1: form battery, which is a weird battery because of what 161 00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:04,040 Speaker 1: we know of batteries as these highly specialized chemicals doing 162 00:09:04,280 --> 00:09:08,040 Speaker 1: very specific things like hurtling an electric car at one 163 00:09:08,120 --> 00:09:11,960 Speaker 1: hundred miles per hour. The form battery cannot do that. 164 00:09:12,920 --> 00:09:15,680 Speaker 2: To be clear, it could, it would be a very 165 00:09:15,720 --> 00:09:19,360 Speaker 2: poor choice. All batteries have trade offs, and the trick 166 00:09:19,440 --> 00:09:23,120 Speaker 2: is to pick, for a given chemistry the right application 167 00:09:23,600 --> 00:09:26,960 Speaker 2: that doesn't care about the things that it's not good at. Right, 168 00:09:27,440 --> 00:09:31,040 Speaker 2: and so, iron air batteries are not particularly suited. In fact, 169 00:09:31,080 --> 00:09:34,080 Speaker 2: they're not at all suited for motive applications moving things around, 170 00:09:34,480 --> 00:09:37,280 Speaker 2: but they are very well suited to this multi day 171 00:09:37,360 --> 00:09:39,679 Speaker 2: intermitcy problem on the grid that we're solving. All right, 172 00:09:39,960 --> 00:09:44,080 Speaker 2: so describe this battery. So Form is commercializing an iron 173 00:09:44,120 --> 00:09:46,760 Speaker 2: air battery, and it is very much what it sounds like. 174 00:09:46,880 --> 00:09:51,520 Speaker 2: We are rusting and unrusting iron in a battery. Humans 175 00:09:51,520 --> 00:09:53,920 Speaker 2: are very familiar with the fact that iron rusts. Right, 176 00:09:53,960 --> 00:09:56,600 Speaker 2: We had a whole age named after a period where 177 00:09:56,640 --> 00:09:59,600 Speaker 2: humans were working with iron about three thousand years ago, 178 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:02,320 Speaker 2: and so we've learned a lot about how iron rusts, 179 00:10:02,440 --> 00:10:04,760 Speaker 2: and that is the whole world of corrosion science. Right, 180 00:10:04,760 --> 00:10:07,040 Speaker 2: how do we prevent iron from rusting? How do we 181 00:10:07,040 --> 00:10:08,920 Speaker 2: make sure that those bridges stay up for a long time? 182 00:10:09,640 --> 00:10:13,760 Speaker 2: And what we are commercializing is that reaction and then 183 00:10:13,800 --> 00:10:16,800 Speaker 2: also in reverse, So how do we control that reaction 184 00:10:17,080 --> 00:10:18,800 Speaker 2: and how do we get it to perform in a 185 00:10:18,880 --> 00:10:22,320 Speaker 2: battery to the highest possible level of performance at the 186 00:10:22,400 --> 00:10:25,760 Speaker 2: lowest possible cost. So that's really the task that we 187 00:10:25,800 --> 00:10:28,160 Speaker 2: have been working on for the last five years. A 188 00:10:28,200 --> 00:10:29,720 Speaker 2: reversible rust battery. 189 00:10:30,040 --> 00:10:32,719 Speaker 1: I assume you have a fresh piece of iron, you 190 00:10:32,840 --> 00:10:34,559 Speaker 1: leave it out in the open. It's going to take 191 00:10:34,640 --> 00:10:37,560 Speaker 1: months before it becomes rust or at least gets a 192 00:10:37,640 --> 00:10:40,560 Speaker 1: layer of rust outside, which stops the rest of the 193 00:10:40,600 --> 00:10:44,000 Speaker 1: iron underneath it from becoming rust Your battery will do 194 00:10:44,040 --> 00:10:45,200 Speaker 1: that much much faster. 195 00:10:45,559 --> 00:10:49,440 Speaker 2: That's correct, and the idea of the rusting happening on 196 00:10:49,480 --> 00:10:51,840 Speaker 2: the surface is one of the interesting things that we 197 00:10:51,960 --> 00:10:54,839 Speaker 2: have figured out how to deal with. It does take 198 00:10:54,840 --> 00:10:56,960 Speaker 2: a long time if you just let it happen on 199 00:10:57,000 --> 00:10:59,800 Speaker 2: its own as a reaction. It's a very actively driven 200 00:10:59,840 --> 00:11:02,520 Speaker 2: reaction that we have within the cell. So we know 201 00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:06,240 Speaker 2: how to drive that reaction under the conditions that we 202 00:11:06,280 --> 00:11:09,480 Speaker 2: are providing to get the speed of this reaction both 203 00:11:09,520 --> 00:11:12,120 Speaker 2: on charge and discharge so that it's suitable for this 204 00:11:12,240 --> 00:11:14,960 Speaker 2: multi day application. We do not have months to wait 205 00:11:15,120 --> 00:11:18,040 Speaker 2: for the oxidization to just sort of happen naturally, so 206 00:11:18,080 --> 00:11:20,120 Speaker 2: it's very much a controlled reaction that we're driving. 207 00:11:20,280 --> 00:11:23,079 Speaker 1: When people think of ion rusting, they don't really think 208 00:11:23,120 --> 00:11:26,400 Speaker 1: about energy. So where is energy coming into all of this? 209 00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:29,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, so when we talk about energy, we are talking 210 00:11:29,800 --> 00:11:30,720 Speaker 2: about electrons. 211 00:11:30,840 --> 00:11:30,920 Speaker 1: Right. 212 00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:33,600 Speaker 2: This is a battery after all, So if people know 213 00:11:33,640 --> 00:11:36,840 Speaker 2: something about batteries, they probably have heard of lithium ion batteries, 214 00:11:37,240 --> 00:11:39,520 Speaker 2: and indeed that is the name because there is an 215 00:11:39,640 --> 00:11:42,160 Speaker 2: ion of lithium that in fact is going back and 216 00:11:42,200 --> 00:11:44,480 Speaker 2: forth from the anode to the cathode, and that is 217 00:11:44,520 --> 00:11:47,400 Speaker 2: what provides that charge. Right when electron is either given 218 00:11:47,480 --> 00:11:50,120 Speaker 2: up or it's given back, the lithium ion is the 219 00:11:50,120 --> 00:11:52,960 Speaker 2: one that is conveying that charge for us. There's no 220 00:11:53,240 --> 00:11:56,800 Speaker 2: iron ion that's going back and forth. It's a hydroxide. 221 00:11:57,320 --> 00:12:00,560 Speaker 2: So this is a combination between hydrogen and oxen, and 222 00:12:00,600 --> 00:12:04,200 Speaker 2: that is the molecule that is doing the work of 223 00:12:04,320 --> 00:12:08,160 Speaker 2: either accepting or giving up the electron. So you're right, 224 00:12:08,320 --> 00:12:11,960 Speaker 2: iron in the wild gives up its electron for free. 225 00:12:12,240 --> 00:12:15,280 Speaker 2: Essentially it goes somewhere else, right, And the trick is 226 00:12:15,280 --> 00:12:19,640 Speaker 2: that we capture that electron in this liquid environment where 227 00:12:19,679 --> 00:12:22,960 Speaker 2: this hydroxide ion can do the work that we needed 228 00:12:23,040 --> 00:12:23,280 Speaker 2: to do. 229 00:12:23,720 --> 00:12:30,920 Speaker 1: So it's sort of a what just happened is Mateo, 230 00:12:31,160 --> 00:12:34,360 Speaker 1: after finishing the explanation, looked over at Billy to confirm 231 00:12:34,360 --> 00:12:35,200 Speaker 1: that he got it right. 232 00:12:36,440 --> 00:12:38,360 Speaker 2: But of course I always check with Billy on him. 233 00:12:39,120 --> 00:12:42,920 Speaker 1: So, Billy, you're the chief technology officer here at Forum Energy, 234 00:12:43,280 --> 00:12:46,160 Speaker 1: there's a different way to explain this specific reaction. What 235 00:12:46,960 --> 00:12:48,280 Speaker 1: is your best explanation? 236 00:12:48,559 --> 00:12:51,840 Speaker 3: Sure, So the analogy here is the rusting reaction, and 237 00:12:52,360 --> 00:12:56,120 Speaker 3: that reaction is actually practiced intentionally in hand warmers. So 238 00:12:56,200 --> 00:12:59,280 Speaker 3: these small pocket held devices that you use when it's 239 00:12:59,360 --> 00:13:01,440 Speaker 3: very cold outside and you want to keep your blood 240 00:13:01,440 --> 00:13:05,040 Speaker 3: circulating into your fingertips, and those are actually full of 241 00:13:05,440 --> 00:13:08,800 Speaker 3: fine iron powder that is rusting, and it's rusting very 242 00:13:08,800 --> 00:13:12,120 Speaker 3: slowly and it's generating heat. And so the energy of 243 00:13:12,160 --> 00:13:14,920 Speaker 3: the rusting reaction in that case is going into heat 244 00:13:15,040 --> 00:13:17,680 Speaker 3: in our battery. Because we separate that and drive it 245 00:13:17,760 --> 00:13:21,240 Speaker 3: electro chemically rather than just chemically, we can capture that 246 00:13:21,320 --> 00:13:25,200 Speaker 3: energy has electricity. So and I know that because in 247 00:13:25,240 --> 00:13:27,360 Speaker 3: the very early days of form, some of the very 248 00:13:27,360 --> 00:13:30,520 Speaker 3: first iron powders that we tested I sourced by buying 249 00:13:30,559 --> 00:13:32,559 Speaker 3: a bunch of handwarmers and cutting them open. 250 00:13:32,640 --> 00:13:35,280 Speaker 1: Wow, that's I mean, that's how you build a billion 251 00:13:35,280 --> 00:13:37,240 Speaker 1: dollar battery company. 252 00:13:38,320 --> 00:13:41,400 Speaker 2: It starts with a single step. As an example of that, 253 00:13:41,559 --> 00:13:44,400 Speaker 2: when they were first figuring out how to move around 254 00:13:45,120 --> 00:13:48,840 Speaker 2: direct reduced iron, which is what's used for electric arc 255 00:13:48,880 --> 00:13:52,200 Speaker 2: for and a steel production, and they didn't realize just 256 00:13:52,280 --> 00:13:54,960 Speaker 2: how quickly this would oxize. There was a ship that 257 00:13:55,080 --> 00:14:00,320 Speaker 2: had four hundred thousand tons roughly of DRI and then 258 00:14:00,360 --> 00:14:04,040 Speaker 2: started to heat up because it's a giant handwarmer, and 259 00:14:04,440 --> 00:14:07,439 Speaker 2: once that started to heat up, there was no stopping 260 00:14:07,480 --> 00:14:09,920 Speaker 2: it and they had to sink the ship. 261 00:14:10,520 --> 00:14:14,720 Speaker 3: Wow, the reaction is exacerbated by saltwater. So you know 262 00:14:14,800 --> 00:14:18,199 Speaker 3: that if you have salty roads, that causes a cart 263 00:14:18,280 --> 00:14:21,080 Speaker 3: to rust more rapidly. The same thing is true, so 264 00:14:21,160 --> 00:14:24,800 Speaker 3: the salt in ocean water caused the rusting reaction to 265 00:14:24,840 --> 00:14:25,520 Speaker 3: be accelerated. 266 00:14:26,680 --> 00:14:28,720 Speaker 1: This took place in two thousand and three in the 267 00:14:28,760 --> 00:14:32,720 Speaker 1: Indian Ocean, just east of Madagascar. The ship heated up 268 00:14:32,760 --> 00:14:37,000 Speaker 1: to three hundred degrees celsius and understandably, the structures began 269 00:14:37,040 --> 00:14:40,440 Speaker 1: to fail. Everyone who was on the ship was evacuated 270 00:14:40,480 --> 00:14:43,920 Speaker 1: and got off. Okay, Billy, how did you get to. 271 00:14:43,880 --> 00:14:44,440 Speaker 2: Be doing this? 272 00:14:44,560 --> 00:14:47,720 Speaker 1: I know the handwarmers were involved, but I assume there's 273 00:14:48,120 --> 00:14:50,400 Speaker 1: more that you had to put in to get this job. 274 00:14:50,560 --> 00:14:52,920 Speaker 3: So. I grew up in northern Pennsylvania. I studied material 275 00:14:52,960 --> 00:14:55,480 Speaker 3: science at Penn State. As an undergraduate, I had an 276 00:14:55,480 --> 00:14:59,240 Speaker 3: opportunity to do an internship where I worked on the 277 00:14:59,280 --> 00:15:02,000 Speaker 3: development of a battery component, and that was really where 278 00:15:02,040 --> 00:15:05,200 Speaker 3: I first got excited and interested in batteries. I came 279 00:15:05,240 --> 00:15:06,920 Speaker 3: for the science and I stayed for the mission. So 280 00:15:07,320 --> 00:15:10,600 Speaker 3: I got interested in batteries because of the technical problems 281 00:15:10,600 --> 00:15:13,720 Speaker 3: inside of them, and then through my PhD, I really 282 00:15:13,720 --> 00:15:17,320 Speaker 3: came to realize how impactful batteries could be on climate 283 00:15:17,360 --> 00:15:18,080 Speaker 3: and on energy. 284 00:15:18,160 --> 00:15:20,760 Speaker 1: What are the technical challenges that have kept you going? 285 00:15:21,320 --> 00:15:24,920 Speaker 3: Yeah, so it's a simple reaction in principle, but of 286 00:15:24,920 --> 00:15:27,120 Speaker 3: course the devil is always in the details. Many of 287 00:15:27,160 --> 00:15:31,360 Speaker 3: the challenges relate to controlling that reaction, so making it 288 00:15:31,360 --> 00:15:33,760 Speaker 3: be mechanically stable. You know, if you have a car 289 00:15:33,880 --> 00:15:36,880 Speaker 3: rust that can mechanically detach. That has been one of 290 00:15:36,880 --> 00:15:38,800 Speaker 3: the challenges and one of the puzzles that we've had 291 00:15:38,840 --> 00:15:41,120 Speaker 3: to sort through. How do you design that to be 292 00:15:41,320 --> 00:15:45,720 Speaker 3: robust and durable and reproducible. Others are the efficiency of 293 00:15:45,760 --> 00:15:48,480 Speaker 3: the cell, So how do you have a good high 294 00:15:48,480 --> 00:15:50,560 Speaker 3: fraction of the energy that you put into the battery 295 00:15:50,560 --> 00:15:53,040 Speaker 3: come back out when you discharge it? And it's one 296 00:15:53,040 --> 00:15:55,320 Speaker 3: thing to make an iron air battery that cycles, and 297 00:15:55,360 --> 00:15:58,160 Speaker 3: it's another one entirely to design the cell that is 298 00:15:58,600 --> 00:16:01,320 Speaker 3: scalable and low cost, and that is a critical and 299 00:16:01,400 --> 00:16:02,600 Speaker 3: essential piece of the challenge. 300 00:16:02,640 --> 00:16:07,080 Speaker 2: It is fairly easy to make a terrible iron air battery. 301 00:16:07,160 --> 00:16:10,880 Speaker 2: It is very hard to make that chemistry perform at 302 00:16:10,880 --> 00:16:14,560 Speaker 2: its highest possible level at the lowest possible cost. And 303 00:16:14,600 --> 00:16:16,400 Speaker 2: you can only do it when you have people the 304 00:16:16,440 --> 00:16:18,240 Speaker 2: caliber of Billy and the team that we built. 305 00:16:18,040 --> 00:16:25,160 Speaker 1: Here after the break, how the Inflation Reduction Act helps 306 00:16:25,200 --> 00:16:27,720 Speaker 1: form and when you might be able to drive by 307 00:16:27,760 --> 00:16:44,520 Speaker 1: some form batteries yourself. What specifically does the Inflation Reduction 308 00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:46,880 Speaker 1: Act do for you as a company. 309 00:16:47,080 --> 00:16:50,400 Speaker 2: Well, it's a seven hundred page document, so it's hard 310 00:16:50,440 --> 00:16:53,520 Speaker 2: to say that there's one thing that it does. However, 311 00:16:54,040 --> 00:16:57,520 Speaker 2: from a broad perspective, the best thing that it probably 312 00:16:57,520 --> 00:17:00,200 Speaker 2: does for us as an individual company is it it 313 00:17:00,320 --> 00:17:04,040 Speaker 2: very clearly identifies the role that energy storage can sort 314 00:17:04,280 --> 00:17:07,359 Speaker 2: to take a normative stance should have in this broader 315 00:17:07,480 --> 00:17:11,359 Speaker 2: energy transition to a decarbonized system, and in particular a 316 00:17:11,400 --> 00:17:15,200 Speaker 2: decarbonized electric grid. And so there are for example, take 317 00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:18,639 Speaker 2: the investment tax credit for standalone storage. This is something 318 00:17:18,640 --> 00:17:20,560 Speaker 2: that the industry has been working on for years to 319 00:17:20,600 --> 00:17:22,639 Speaker 2: try and get past. This was a benefit that was 320 00:17:22,640 --> 00:17:26,840 Speaker 2: already there for solar, and the storage industry wanted storage 321 00:17:26,840 --> 00:17:29,800 Speaker 2: to qualify for that same credit, and so very unambiguously 322 00:17:29,840 --> 00:17:32,160 Speaker 2: it's in the bill there, And so that's a very 323 00:17:32,200 --> 00:17:36,600 Speaker 2: clear signal that storage is intended to be very much 324 00:17:36,800 --> 00:17:41,760 Speaker 2: alongside these other large scale infrastructure type technologies being deployed 325 00:17:41,760 --> 00:17:42,960 Speaker 2: in large volumes on the grid. 326 00:17:43,240 --> 00:17:47,560 Speaker 1: If it's possible, can you walk through how a tax 327 00:17:47,600 --> 00:17:51,840 Speaker 1: credit meant for storage would apply for a commercial project 328 00:17:51,840 --> 00:17:53,160 Speaker 1: that you will be building. 329 00:17:53,560 --> 00:17:56,199 Speaker 2: Sure, So the baseline of the investment tax credit is 330 00:17:56,200 --> 00:17:59,480 Speaker 2: a thirty percent tax credit on the capex value of 331 00:17:59,520 --> 00:18:03,000 Speaker 2: a project, and there are certain adders on top of 332 00:18:03,000 --> 00:18:06,320 Speaker 2: that ten percent adders that come in for domestic content 333 00:18:06,600 --> 00:18:08,960 Speaker 2: or for the location of that asset if it's in 334 00:18:09,720 --> 00:18:13,480 Speaker 2: a disadvantaged community or economic development community for example. There's 335 00:18:13,480 --> 00:18:16,119 Speaker 2: also adders for the owners in the case that they 336 00:18:16,160 --> 00:18:20,520 Speaker 2: are nonprofit for example. So it takes the effective cost 337 00:18:20,680 --> 00:18:23,960 Speaker 2: to the buyer down by as much as two thirds potentially. 338 00:18:24,080 --> 00:18:24,640 Speaker 1: That's amazing. 339 00:18:24,800 --> 00:18:28,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, it is industrial policy written into the tax CUD 340 00:18:28,640 --> 00:18:29,080 Speaker 2: for sure. 341 00:18:29,520 --> 00:18:32,240 Speaker 1: When will you build your first commercial project? 342 00:18:32,440 --> 00:18:35,439 Speaker 2: Our first commercial projects will start to be deployed with 343 00:18:35,600 --> 00:18:38,400 Speaker 2: our partners towards the end of twenty twenty four. And 344 00:18:38,480 --> 00:18:41,399 Speaker 2: that's also the pace at which this industry moves. You 345 00:18:41,480 --> 00:18:45,200 Speaker 2: can't turn large volumes of infrastructure on overnight. 346 00:18:46,080 --> 00:18:48,720 Speaker 1: In December, Forum announced that it will build a seven 347 00:18:48,840 --> 00:18:52,200 Speaker 1: hundred and sixty million dollar factory in West Virginia to 348 00:18:52,320 --> 00:18:56,560 Speaker 1: make its batteries. That site will start manufacturing the batteries 349 00:18:56,640 --> 00:19:00,560 Speaker 1: in twenty twenty four. This is a critical steps ten 350 00:19:00,640 --> 00:19:04,040 Speaker 1: year timeline of making the battery affordable for its customers. 351 00:19:04,400 --> 00:19:08,080 Speaker 1: Power companies looking to eliminate the use of coal and gas. 352 00:19:09,920 --> 00:19:12,879 Speaker 2: So our relationships with utilities go back to even before 353 00:19:12,920 --> 00:19:16,320 Speaker 2: we've formally founded the company, when we were just talking 354 00:19:16,359 --> 00:19:19,359 Speaker 2: about ideas and talking about that kind of storage that 355 00:19:19,440 --> 00:19:22,280 Speaker 2: could replace a coal plant, and really working on on 356 00:19:22,359 --> 00:19:24,600 Speaker 2: what that could mean with the utilities, so that this 357 00:19:24,760 --> 00:19:28,520 Speaker 2: is not something new to them that we understood, the value, 358 00:19:28,560 --> 00:19:33,840 Speaker 2: that we understood the key drivers for their participation in 359 00:19:33,840 --> 00:19:35,679 Speaker 2: the energy transition and storage within that. 360 00:19:35,880 --> 00:19:38,600 Speaker 1: Now, let's talk about the battery and its application on 361 00:19:38,640 --> 00:19:41,040 Speaker 1: the grid. What would it look like when you do 362 00:19:41,119 --> 00:19:44,200 Speaker 1: put one of these on the grid, Like somebody's driving 363 00:19:44,240 --> 00:19:47,800 Speaker 1: past one of the farm energy battery application, what is 364 00:19:47,840 --> 00:19:48,880 Speaker 1: it going to look like to them? 365 00:19:49,359 --> 00:19:51,760 Speaker 2: It will look like shipping containers sitting in a field. 366 00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:54,800 Speaker 2: That's really what it will look like. Not exactly sort 367 00:19:54,800 --> 00:19:58,879 Speaker 2: of a charismatic megafauna power project, if you will, but 368 00:19:59,480 --> 00:20:01,680 Speaker 2: in order to get to the cost targets that were 369 00:20:01,800 --> 00:20:04,560 Speaker 2: going after it sort of can't afford to look like much. 370 00:20:04,960 --> 00:20:07,520 Speaker 1: Now most people know of Tesla as an electric car company. 371 00:20:07,800 --> 00:20:10,800 Speaker 1: Why did you move away from a company that does 372 00:20:10,840 --> 00:20:13,760 Speaker 1: that to something that is working to help the grid. 373 00:20:14,480 --> 00:20:16,640 Speaker 2: Well, I was never a car guy in the beginning. 374 00:20:17,480 --> 00:20:22,440 Speaker 2: I'm not somebody who turns wrenches underhoods off time. In fact, 375 00:20:22,480 --> 00:20:26,000 Speaker 2: I think we should try and do with fewer cars 376 00:20:26,000 --> 00:20:28,800 Speaker 2: in the world, if I'm allowed to say that out loud. Now. 377 00:20:29,400 --> 00:20:32,919 Speaker 2: Tesla is a wonderful place and I really enjoyed my 378 00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:35,240 Speaker 2: time there, But the car was not why I went there. 379 00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:37,480 Speaker 2: The powertrain was why I went to Tesla. That was 380 00:20:37,520 --> 00:20:40,000 Speaker 2: what was compelling to me. Tesla at the time was 381 00:20:40,040 --> 00:20:43,840 Speaker 2: the only company that I could find that had all 382 00:20:43,880 --> 00:20:47,760 Speaker 2: the pieces that were necessary to succeed putting lithium ion 383 00:20:47,800 --> 00:20:49,720 Speaker 2: on the grid. And I had already been working in 384 00:20:50,200 --> 00:20:53,560 Speaker 2: the grid entergy storage business for about five years at 385 00:20:53,600 --> 00:20:56,520 Speaker 2: that point, and very clearly the next wave would be 386 00:20:56,600 --> 00:20:58,560 Speaker 2: lithium minin. This was this was two thousand and nine. 387 00:20:58,640 --> 00:21:00,960 Speaker 2: That was as clear as day to me. But to 388 00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:03,800 Speaker 2: be successful, you can't just buy a lithium eye on 389 00:21:03,880 --> 00:21:05,560 Speaker 2: cell and slap it on the grid. That's simply not 390 00:21:05,640 --> 00:21:09,320 Speaker 2: how it works. You do need to make a safe, controllable, 391 00:21:09,680 --> 00:21:12,480 Speaker 2: robust system, and Tesla, because of the cars, of course, 392 00:21:12,640 --> 00:21:15,280 Speaker 2: had already designed one. Now it happened to be in 393 00:21:15,320 --> 00:21:19,000 Speaker 2: a mobile application. But it wasn't hard for me, and 394 00:21:19,040 --> 00:21:21,360 Speaker 2: it wasn't hard for JB. Stravel, one of the co founders, 395 00:21:21,680 --> 00:21:24,199 Speaker 2: my boss, the CTO of Tesla at the time, to 396 00:21:24,280 --> 00:21:26,680 Speaker 2: see that same thing. And that was essentially my night 397 00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:29,199 Speaker 2: job for the first four years that I was at 398 00:21:29,280 --> 00:21:31,199 Speaker 2: the company. For five years I was at the company, 399 00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:34,800 Speaker 2: but it was in many ways my passion. That's why 400 00:21:34,840 --> 00:21:35,879 Speaker 2: I was there at Tesla. 401 00:21:35,920 --> 00:21:39,040 Speaker 1: You had a pretty good job, you left that and 402 00:21:39,119 --> 00:21:41,520 Speaker 1: came to form Probably have a better job now, but 403 00:21:41,560 --> 00:21:43,320 Speaker 1: it's more complicated than that, right. 404 00:21:43,800 --> 00:21:45,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, Actually you sound a little bit like my parents. 405 00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:48,760 Speaker 2: I left a perfectly good job. Why would I do that. 406 00:21:49,400 --> 00:21:52,119 Speaker 2: I was fortunate that I was able to leave that job. 407 00:21:52,640 --> 00:21:54,840 Speaker 2: For me, that was long enough, seven and a half 408 00:21:54,880 --> 00:21:57,000 Speaker 2: years at Tesla. I was ready for a new challenge. 409 00:21:57,000 --> 00:21:58,639 Speaker 2: The company change a lot while I was there, so 410 00:21:58,720 --> 00:22:01,240 Speaker 2: did I. Of course. We went from three hundred people 411 00:22:01,280 --> 00:22:03,240 Speaker 2: to about thirty thousand people over that time period, and 412 00:22:03,280 --> 00:22:06,240 Speaker 2: that's just a very different place and I really like 413 00:22:06,359 --> 00:22:08,960 Speaker 2: working on the earlier stage stuff, and so that was 414 00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:11,760 Speaker 2: sort of the main reason why why for me it 415 00:22:11,880 --> 00:22:14,359 Speaker 2: was a good time to leave Kendilly. There are people 416 00:22:14,359 --> 00:22:16,080 Speaker 2: who were going to be better at the job that 417 00:22:16,160 --> 00:22:18,480 Speaker 2: I was going to have to do going forward that 418 00:22:18,560 --> 00:22:21,639 Speaker 2: I was too, but going through the moment's transition. The 419 00:22:21,680 --> 00:22:24,240 Speaker 2: place that I did that was a very fertile place, 420 00:22:24,240 --> 00:22:25,879 Speaker 2: and that was or now it's called Activity, used to 421 00:22:25,880 --> 00:22:29,000 Speaker 2: be called Cyclotron Road. My good friend elan Ger was 422 00:22:29,040 --> 00:22:33,159 Speaker 2: the founder executive director there and he basically invited me 423 00:22:33,240 --> 00:22:35,959 Speaker 2: to sort of hang out at Cyclotron Road up there 424 00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:38,879 Speaker 2: at Lawrence Berkeley National Lab. I think officially I was 425 00:22:38,920 --> 00:22:41,399 Speaker 2: an entrepreneur in residence there. You be a part of 426 00:22:41,400 --> 00:22:44,720 Speaker 2: that community there. There's just a lot of great innovative 427 00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:46,639 Speaker 2: thinking that's happening there, and so it was sort of 428 00:22:46,840 --> 00:22:49,760 Speaker 2: an easy community to tap into and just give me 429 00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:53,160 Speaker 2: sort of a place to do that. And my pathway 430 00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:55,080 Speaker 2: to becoming part of the founding team at Forum started 431 00:22:55,080 --> 00:22:58,080 Speaker 2: as a thought experiment where I thought I would end 432 00:22:58,160 --> 00:23:01,320 Speaker 2: up discarding the notion that you could replace a coal 433 00:23:01,359 --> 00:23:03,960 Speaker 2: plant with a battery I thought it was going to 434 00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:08,679 Speaker 2: disprove a thought rather than prove one. But somewhat to 435 00:23:08,800 --> 00:23:12,000 Speaker 2: my surprise and I guess happy outcome, that turned out 436 00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:12,680 Speaker 2: not to be the case. 437 00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:15,760 Speaker 1: It's very rare that you hire a chief executive officer 438 00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:20,200 Speaker 1: of a startup who wants to prove that the startups 439 00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:21,880 Speaker 1: idea is not going to work. 440 00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:25,359 Speaker 2: Well, I think it's a good way to go about it. Frankly. 441 00:23:26,920 --> 00:23:28,440 Speaker 2: You might as well try and prove that it's a 442 00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:31,760 Speaker 2: terrible idea first rather than finding it out later on. 443 00:23:32,080 --> 00:23:35,159 Speaker 2: And I think that's part of the reason why the 444 00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:38,240 Speaker 2: founding team is to me, was so compelling, is we 445 00:23:38,280 --> 00:23:40,159 Speaker 2: all had that same mindset. None of us wanted to 446 00:23:40,160 --> 00:23:43,119 Speaker 2: work on something that we thought would not scale for 447 00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:47,840 Speaker 2: some fundamental reason, and we really kicked the ideas around 448 00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:50,200 Speaker 2: as hard as we possibly could. And you know, that's 449 00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:52,359 Speaker 2: how good science is done, frankly, right, You try and 450 00:23:52,359 --> 00:23:55,919 Speaker 2: disprove the hypothesis. That's the scientific method, and so we 451 00:23:55,960 --> 00:23:56,920 Speaker 2: took that same approach. 452 00:23:57,480 --> 00:24:00,440 Speaker 1: Since Mateo has been at three different battery comps of 453 00:24:00,800 --> 00:24:03,919 Speaker 1: very different sizes, I wanted to know did he have 454 00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:05,360 Speaker 1: any entrepreneurial advice? 455 00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:07,920 Speaker 2: Do I have an entrepreneurial advice. Be a part of 456 00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:11,520 Speaker 2: a great founding team. It's all about the people, it 457 00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:14,320 Speaker 2: really is. And the other is make sure that you 458 00:24:14,920 --> 00:24:17,479 Speaker 2: are working on a problem that matters. And one thing 459 00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:19,800 Speaker 2: that we talk about here at FORM is that we 460 00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:23,840 Speaker 2: have built a great team of problem solvers. But before 461 00:24:23,880 --> 00:24:26,359 Speaker 2: we solve problems, we have to be great problem finders. 462 00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:28,600 Speaker 2: And I would say that at Forum we have found 463 00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:31,960 Speaker 2: a great problem to work on to solve, and that 464 00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:35,240 Speaker 2: unlocks a lot of things beyond it. And what I 465 00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:37,720 Speaker 2: mean by that in part, if you find the right 466 00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:41,040 Speaker 2: problem to solve, it attracts the right people. And solving 467 00:24:41,119 --> 00:24:44,040 Speaker 2: multi day storage, coming up with that battery that does 468 00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:48,240 Speaker 2: allow you to replace a coal plant is a big enough, 469 00:24:48,359 --> 00:24:53,119 Speaker 2: hard enough, compelling enough problem that you get the best 470 00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:56,359 Speaker 2: people who want to work on that. 471 00:24:56,359 --> 00:24:59,280 Speaker 1: That was a fascinating conversation. Thanks for giving us the tour. 472 00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:02,119 Speaker 3: Thanks very much, Thank you, Thanks for coming in to day. 473 00:25:02,119 --> 00:25:02,880 Speaker 2: It's great to meet you. 474 00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:11,439 Speaker 1: If you want to learn more about Form Energy and 475 00:25:11,560 --> 00:25:14,880 Speaker 1: especially the story of those handwarmers, you can check out 476 00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:17,000 Speaker 1: a link in the show notes to a feature story 477 00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:19,920 Speaker 1: I wrote. Thank you so much for listening to Zero. 478 00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:22,920 Speaker 1: If you enjoyed this episode, please take a moment to 479 00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:26,800 Speaker 1: rate and review us on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Share 480 00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:29,840 Speaker 1: it with a friend or someone who has very cold hands. 481 00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:33,159 Speaker 1: If you've got a comment or question, send us an 482 00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:36,280 Speaker 1: email at zero pod at bloomberg dot net. You can 483 00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:40,520 Speaker 1: also tweet at me I am at Akshatrati. Zero's producer 484 00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:44,360 Speaker 1: is Oscar Boyd and senior producer is Christine Drisco. Our 485 00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:48,480 Speaker 1: theme music is composed by Wondering Special thanks to kirubindrim 486 00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:51,240 Speaker 1: i'm Akshatrati back next week.