1 00:00:02,600 --> 00:00:07,080 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. 2 00:00:08,000 --> 00:00:12,840 Speaker 2: America is the country that started the AI race, and 3 00:00:12,920 --> 00:00:15,560 Speaker 2: as President of the United States, I'm here today to 4 00:00:15,640 --> 00:00:19,240 Speaker 2: declare that America is going to win it. 5 00:00:28,400 --> 00:00:31,520 Speaker 3: I'm Stephanie Flanders, head of Governments and Economics at Bloomberg, 6 00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:34,440 Speaker 3: and this is Trumppnomics, the podcast that looks at the 7 00:00:34,479 --> 00:00:37,320 Speaker 3: economic world of Donald Trump, how he's already shaped the 8 00:00:37,320 --> 00:00:40,600 Speaker 3: global economy. What on earth is going to happen next. 9 00:00:41,880 --> 00:00:45,640 Speaker 3: One thing President Biden and President Trump and any other 10 00:00:45,680 --> 00:00:49,519 Speaker 3: elected US politician can agree on is America needs to 11 00:00:49,600 --> 00:00:53,560 Speaker 3: win the race for AI supremacy. You just heard Donald 12 00:00:53,560 --> 00:00:57,040 Speaker 3: Trump say as much at the administration's recent AI summit, 13 00:00:57,560 --> 00:00:59,720 Speaker 3: and he went on to vow to do everything it 14 00:00:59,760 --> 00:01:03,800 Speaker 3: takes to achieve that. So we're asking a simple question, 15 00:01:04,360 --> 00:01:07,720 Speaker 3: how's he doing. At that summit, he unveiled a twenty 16 00:01:07,760 --> 00:01:11,600 Speaker 3: three page AI action Plan, which, to one expert, read 17 00:01:11,680 --> 00:01:15,920 Speaker 3: like an industrial scale mobilization order. The emphasis was all 18 00:01:15,959 --> 00:01:19,959 Speaker 3: on freeing up companies to move fast and innovate, getting 19 00:01:20,000 --> 00:01:21,680 Speaker 3: rid of the red tape in the way of building 20 00:01:21,760 --> 00:01:26,120 Speaker 3: data storage centers, junking Biden nearer guardrails on safety, and 21 00:01:26,240 --> 00:01:28,280 Speaker 3: pretty much everything that might be standing in the way 22 00:01:28,360 --> 00:01:31,240 Speaker 3: of big AI companies doing what they want to do. 23 00:01:31,800 --> 00:01:36,520 Speaker 3: So will it work and if so, at what potential cost? Well, naturally, 24 00:01:36,600 --> 00:01:39,440 Speaker 3: we have two brilliant Bloomberg voices to tell us the 25 00:01:39,480 --> 00:01:43,039 Speaker 3: answer and to consider whether other Trump policies that we 26 00:01:43,480 --> 00:01:46,600 Speaker 3: often discuss on this podcast might be working against the 27 00:01:46,640 --> 00:01:51,560 Speaker 3: administration's goals on AI. With me in the London studio 28 00:01:51,680 --> 00:01:55,880 Speaker 3: is palmey Olsen, the Bloomberg opinion columnist covering technology. She's 29 00:01:55,920 --> 00:01:58,240 Speaker 3: a former reporter for The Wall Street Journal at Forbes 30 00:01:58,360 --> 00:02:02,840 Speaker 3: and the author, most recently of Supremacy, AI, Chat, GPT 31 00:02:03,160 --> 00:02:05,800 Speaker 3: and The Race That Will Change the World. That's the 32 00:02:05,840 --> 00:02:08,079 Speaker 3: book that won the Financial Times Business Book of the 33 00:02:08,160 --> 00:02:10,720 Speaker 3: Year award in twenty twenty four. Party is so great 34 00:02:10,720 --> 00:02:11,200 Speaker 3: to have you on. 35 00:02:11,280 --> 00:02:11,919 Speaker 4: Thank you for having me. 36 00:02:12,040 --> 00:02:13,360 Speaker 3: The last time I saw you may have been at 37 00:02:13,360 --> 00:02:17,120 Speaker 3: the awards ceremony. ALF very pleasant surprise for you to win. 38 00:02:17,480 --> 00:02:21,040 Speaker 3: And in Washington, D C. Michael DNG joins us. Michael's 39 00:02:21,080 --> 00:02:25,480 Speaker 3: the geoeconomics technology analyst for Bloomberg Economics, and he previously 40 00:02:25,520 --> 00:02:28,040 Speaker 3: served in the Biden administration as a policy advisor and 41 00:02:28,120 --> 00:02:31,760 Speaker 3: Presidential Management Fellow. In the Chips Program Office at the 42 00:02:31,800 --> 00:02:35,919 Speaker 3: Department of Commerce, among other things. Michael, welcome to Trumponomics, 43 00:02:35,919 --> 00:02:36,839 Speaker 3: your first time too. 44 00:02:37,160 --> 00:02:38,079 Speaker 1: Thank you great to be. 45 00:02:38,040 --> 00:02:45,840 Speaker 3: Here, Parmi, since you have just written this book and 46 00:02:46,560 --> 00:02:48,680 Speaker 3: we have heard a lot about deep Seek in the 47 00:02:48,760 --> 00:02:52,440 Speaker 3: last six months or so. If the President wants the 48 00:02:52,560 --> 00:02:55,960 Speaker 3: US to win the race and AI, is the US 49 00:02:56,000 --> 00:02:59,520 Speaker 3: still the leader in this technology or did deep Seek 50 00:02:59,720 --> 00:03:01,760 Speaker 3: shows that China had already caught up? 51 00:03:02,480 --> 00:03:05,560 Speaker 4: Well, it depends how you define leader. But I would 52 00:03:05,600 --> 00:03:09,519 Speaker 4: say when it comes to AI capabilities, the models, and 53 00:03:09,680 --> 00:03:14,040 Speaker 4: how good they are at reasoning and math and coding, 54 00:03:14,360 --> 00:03:17,600 Speaker 4: then yes, US models are still ahead of the ones 55 00:03:17,600 --> 00:03:20,560 Speaker 4: coming out of China. The thing is they're not ahead 56 00:03:20,560 --> 00:03:23,520 Speaker 4: by much. It's a very narrow lead. Now, when it 57 00:03:23,560 --> 00:03:27,320 Speaker 4: comes to actual adoption of AI services, I would say 58 00:03:27,320 --> 00:03:30,720 Speaker 4: that in China it's much more sort of readily available. 59 00:03:30,919 --> 00:03:33,600 Speaker 4: People use AI much more in their daily lives. And 60 00:03:33,680 --> 00:03:37,400 Speaker 4: China's ability also to kind of create the energy infrastructure 61 00:03:37,440 --> 00:03:40,000 Speaker 4: they need to build AI models. They're able to kind 62 00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:42,520 Speaker 4: of spin up the gigawatts that they need. I think 63 00:03:42,520 --> 00:03:45,360 Speaker 4: it is something like four hundred gigawatts that they're already 64 00:03:45,400 --> 00:03:48,320 Speaker 4: planning for AI that they have available versus you know, 65 00:03:48,400 --> 00:03:51,560 Speaker 4: dozens of gigawatts that the US has that certainly puts 66 00:03:51,560 --> 00:03:55,119 Speaker 4: them in a very advantageous position. But as it stands, 67 00:03:55,480 --> 00:03:58,560 Speaker 4: you know, the US is still ahead. Deep Seek of course, 68 00:03:58,640 --> 00:04:01,720 Speaker 4: caused this kind of freak out for Silicon Valley back 69 00:04:01,720 --> 00:04:04,760 Speaker 4: in January when that dropped, because here was a model 70 00:04:04,800 --> 00:04:08,200 Speaker 4: that was not only as good as chat GPT, but 71 00:04:08,360 --> 00:04:11,760 Speaker 4: it was free and the blueprints had been put on 72 00:04:11,800 --> 00:04:15,440 Speaker 4: the Internet for anybody to copy and develop on, which 73 00:04:15,520 --> 00:04:17,839 Speaker 4: is absolutely what people have done. And that really spoke 74 00:04:17,920 --> 00:04:22,320 Speaker 4: to why China's tech sector has moved so quickly, is 75 00:04:22,360 --> 00:04:25,000 Speaker 4: there's been this real focus on open source or so 76 00:04:25,120 --> 00:04:28,040 Speaker 4: called open weight models. You know, when you keep your 77 00:04:28,080 --> 00:04:30,560 Speaker 4: tech proprietary and secret, you kind of have to start 78 00:04:30,560 --> 00:04:32,600 Speaker 4: from scratch as a company each time you build AI. 79 00:04:32,680 --> 00:04:36,360 Speaker 4: But if it's open, companies are collaborating more with each other, 80 00:04:36,400 --> 00:04:39,200 Speaker 4: and they're building on top of one another's innovations, and 81 00:04:39,240 --> 00:04:42,040 Speaker 4: then collectively, you know, the whole industry can just move 82 00:04:42,080 --> 00:04:45,080 Speaker 4: a lot more quickly. And that's exactly what's happened in China. 83 00:04:45,120 --> 00:04:47,440 Speaker 4: But as I say, they haven't completely caught up, but 84 00:04:47,480 --> 00:04:47,960 Speaker 4: they're close. 85 00:04:48,320 --> 00:04:50,960 Speaker 3: Okay, So, Michael, we heard at the beginning there at 86 00:04:51,000 --> 00:04:54,320 Speaker 3: the summit that Donald Trump at least thought his action 87 00:04:54,480 --> 00:04:59,880 Speaker 3: plan was all about maintaining US leadership and winning that race. 88 00:05:00,279 --> 00:05:02,760 Speaker 3: What does this administration think is the answer on this? 89 00:05:03,320 --> 00:05:03,560 Speaker 4: Yeah? 90 00:05:03,560 --> 00:05:06,200 Speaker 1: So, I think the AI Action Plan is interesting in 91 00:05:06,240 --> 00:05:09,120 Speaker 1: that it does correctly identify some of the key areas 92 00:05:09,120 --> 00:05:12,599 Speaker 1: in which the US really needs to develop further and 93 00:05:12,680 --> 00:05:14,839 Speaker 1: is falling behind on China if it wants to keep 94 00:05:14,920 --> 00:05:17,599 Speaker 1: up and win this AI race. One of the areas 95 00:05:17,640 --> 00:05:20,719 Speaker 1: that it really clearly highlights is in power infrastructure. Parmy 96 00:05:20,720 --> 00:05:23,360 Speaker 1: has already mentioned that China's being able to build on 97 00:05:23,360 --> 00:05:25,760 Speaker 1: the one hundreds of gigawatts scale and is bringing on 98 00:05:25,839 --> 00:05:27,679 Speaker 1: much more power than the US is capable of bringing 99 00:05:27,680 --> 00:05:29,480 Speaker 1: on to be able to match the demand that data 100 00:05:29,480 --> 00:05:33,240 Speaker 1: centers will acquire, and this action Plan specifically accelerates a 101 00:05:33,240 --> 00:05:36,240 Speaker 1: lot of the permitting processes required to build these data centers, 102 00:05:36,560 --> 00:05:39,800 Speaker 1: though interestingly it doesn't outright call for building new infrastructure. 103 00:05:40,040 --> 00:05:44,279 Speaker 1: A lot of it is mainly about accelerating interconnection, optimizing grids, 104 00:05:44,279 --> 00:05:47,320 Speaker 1: stabilizing grids, etc. But it's still headed in the right direction. 105 00:05:47,720 --> 00:05:50,680 Speaker 1: The contradiction there, however, is that you know, last year 106 00:05:50,880 --> 00:05:54,120 Speaker 1: ninety percent of new power generation capacity added to the 107 00:05:54,200 --> 00:05:57,200 Speaker 1: US was all came from renewables, and the Big Beautiful 108 00:05:57,240 --> 00:06:00,000 Speaker 1: Bill explicitly rolled back a lot of the clean energy 109 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:02,080 Speaker 1: tax credits that was going to support that sector of 110 00:06:02,080 --> 00:06:05,520 Speaker 1: the economy. And another wrinkle in the AI action planet 111 00:06:05,520 --> 00:06:08,679 Speaker 1: itself is that the aversion to the solar and wind 112 00:06:08,720 --> 00:06:11,159 Speaker 1: is still very clear. In the text there, you'll notice 113 00:06:11,200 --> 00:06:15,279 Speaker 1: that they highlight nuclear fission, geothermal and fusion as the 114 00:06:15,320 --> 00:06:18,279 Speaker 1: only new sources of energy they think should be developed further, 115 00:06:18,640 --> 00:06:22,080 Speaker 1: while excluding solar, wind, clean battery storage, et cetera. So 116 00:06:22,120 --> 00:06:24,680 Speaker 1: it doesn't really make sense, especially mentioning fusion, which is 117 00:06:25,080 --> 00:06:27,680 Speaker 1: not close to being technically viable at this point. On 118 00:06:27,800 --> 00:06:30,760 Speaker 1: workforce itself, it does target a long standing gap in 119 00:06:30,839 --> 00:06:33,240 Speaker 1: the US ecosystem in that it's trying to build up 120 00:06:33,240 --> 00:06:37,480 Speaker 1: that vocational workforce to operate and deploy AI. The issue 121 00:06:37,480 --> 00:06:40,599 Speaker 1: there being, however, that you know a lot of President 122 00:06:40,640 --> 00:06:43,520 Speaker 1: Trump's recent actions in the past few months have targeted 123 00:06:43,520 --> 00:06:46,720 Speaker 1: that high end research talent pipeline that's really critical or 124 00:06:46,920 --> 00:06:50,960 Speaker 1: for advancing the frontier of AI research, universities, government funding, 125 00:06:51,400 --> 00:06:54,279 Speaker 1: and also immigration. Jensen Huanga said something of you know, 126 00:06:54,320 --> 00:06:58,280 Speaker 1: fifty percent of all AI researchers are Chinese, So while 127 00:06:58,279 --> 00:07:01,719 Speaker 1: you're building up the vocational workforce, you're undercutting or undermining 128 00:07:02,120 --> 00:07:05,400 Speaker 1: the elite research workforce. You need to really advance that frontier. 129 00:07:05,839 --> 00:07:08,400 Speaker 1: And so again a mixed bag on what it's actually doing. 130 00:07:08,839 --> 00:07:11,160 Speaker 1: And the last thing I'll bring up is expert controls, 131 00:07:11,160 --> 00:07:14,560 Speaker 1: which is a massive topic. Lots of implications for foreign policy. 132 00:07:14,800 --> 00:07:16,920 Speaker 1: How presidentrop has acted so far in the past six 133 00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:19,400 Speaker 1: months towards a partners Tariffs are involved as well, so 134 00:07:19,720 --> 00:07:20,400 Speaker 1: very big topic. 135 00:07:20,840 --> 00:07:23,120 Speaker 3: Right. Well, you have introduced the idea that there might 136 00:07:23,200 --> 00:07:27,280 Speaker 3: be some tensions within the plan, but certainly between the 137 00:07:27,320 --> 00:07:31,480 Speaker 3: plan announced at the summit and other aspects of Donald 138 00:07:31,520 --> 00:07:34,320 Speaker 3: Trump's policies, and we are going to get into that. 139 00:07:34,480 --> 00:07:38,920 Speaker 3: But Palmi, you described this as a gift to big tech. 140 00:07:39,080 --> 00:07:41,880 Speaker 3: We know that the people involved in this seem to 141 00:07:41,960 --> 00:07:44,680 Speaker 3: have played a central role in devising this plan. Your 142 00:07:44,680 --> 00:07:47,880 Speaker 3: book is all about the people behind AI. I suspect 143 00:07:47,920 --> 00:07:49,600 Speaker 3: that you have some insight into them. 144 00:07:49,960 --> 00:07:51,880 Speaker 4: Well, that's the most interesting part. I think one of 145 00:07:51,920 --> 00:07:55,960 Speaker 4: the most important people behind this plan is Jensen Huang, 146 00:07:56,120 --> 00:08:00,360 Speaker 4: who is the CEO of Nvidia, and Jensen see him 147 00:08:00,400 --> 00:08:02,600 Speaker 4: on stage walking around with this leather jacket. He is 148 00:08:02,680 --> 00:08:06,680 Speaker 4: not someone who likes doing lobbying in Washington, DC, but 149 00:08:06,720 --> 00:08:08,640 Speaker 4: he's had to do that in the last few months 150 00:08:09,000 --> 00:08:11,720 Speaker 4: after the Trump administration came into power. And first of all, 151 00:08:12,040 --> 00:08:15,400 Speaker 4: back in April, the White House enact the ban on 152 00:08:15,520 --> 00:08:18,040 Speaker 4: in Nvidia's chip sales to China. That's a huge problem 153 00:08:18,040 --> 00:08:20,320 Speaker 4: for Nvidia because it said it would cost fifteen billion 154 00:08:20,360 --> 00:08:24,880 Speaker 4: dollars in revenue. And so there came now this effort 155 00:08:24,920 --> 00:08:28,960 Speaker 4: from Huang to try and turn that view around, and 156 00:08:29,040 --> 00:08:31,160 Speaker 4: he kind of found an ally in the Trump administration 157 00:08:31,400 --> 00:08:34,120 Speaker 4: in David Sachs, who is the so called crypto and 158 00:08:34,160 --> 00:08:37,680 Speaker 4: Ai zar, and both of them were really pushing this 159 00:08:37,760 --> 00:08:41,040 Speaker 4: idea that actually, we need to continue selling to China 160 00:08:41,480 --> 00:08:46,040 Speaker 4: because if we don't, China's gonna and Huawei are gonna 161 00:08:46,040 --> 00:08:48,280 Speaker 4: build their own chips, and then they're going to build 162 00:08:48,679 --> 00:08:50,720 Speaker 4: their own AI services on top of that, and guess what, 163 00:08:51,040 --> 00:08:53,920 Speaker 4: They're going to sell all that AI technology to other 164 00:08:53,960 --> 00:08:55,680 Speaker 4: countries around the world and they're going to be the 165 00:08:55,679 --> 00:08:59,000 Speaker 4: world's leading AI provider. What we need to do is 166 00:08:59,280 --> 00:09:01,880 Speaker 4: kind of clutter the market in China with our own 167 00:09:01,920 --> 00:09:06,520 Speaker 4: tech within Vidia chips, so that Chinese companies become reliant 168 00:09:06,960 --> 00:09:10,320 Speaker 4: on our own infrastructure. And it's really interesting that this 169 00:09:10,400 --> 00:09:14,439 Speaker 4: is actually fundamentally a very Silicon Valley worldview, this idea 170 00:09:14,600 --> 00:09:18,199 Speaker 4: that if you kind of blit scale your product or 171 00:09:18,240 --> 00:09:24,360 Speaker 4: service dominate the market. Eventually consumers, businesses, your customers get 172 00:09:24,400 --> 00:09:27,320 Speaker 4: locked in into your ecosystem. And we've all kind of 173 00:09:27,320 --> 00:09:31,920 Speaker 4: experienced that with Apple Life Songs and Microsoft Cloud the hyperscalers, 174 00:09:31,920 --> 00:09:34,200 Speaker 4: you know, cloud services. It's actually hard for their customers. 175 00:09:34,240 --> 00:09:36,880 Speaker 4: They feel they're locked in. And so this was the 176 00:09:37,120 --> 00:09:41,600 Speaker 4: idea that Huang and Saks really pushed in the Trump administration. Eventually, 177 00:09:41,600 --> 00:09:44,319 Speaker 4: Howard Lutnik, the Commerce Secretary, also picked up on that, 178 00:09:44,760 --> 00:09:47,920 Speaker 4: and we saw that play out with this big U 179 00:09:47,960 --> 00:09:51,319 Speaker 4: turn that Trump made on the ban on in Nvidia chips. 180 00:09:51,480 --> 00:09:53,920 Speaker 4: He lifted it, so in Vidia is now able to 181 00:09:53,960 --> 00:09:57,520 Speaker 4: continue selling specialized sort of export controlled chips called the 182 00:09:57,520 --> 00:10:00,720 Speaker 4: AH twenties. They're kind of framed as being low power, 183 00:10:00,880 --> 00:10:03,560 Speaker 4: not as good as the ones that American companies can use, 184 00:10:03,600 --> 00:10:06,560 Speaker 4: but actually they're still pretty powerful and Chinese companies can 185 00:10:06,600 --> 00:10:09,280 Speaker 4: still do a lot with them. And so I think 186 00:10:09,280 --> 00:10:12,800 Speaker 4: that's raised a lot of questions in Washington among kind 187 00:10:12,800 --> 00:10:16,160 Speaker 4: of traditional China hawks and the administration about is this 188 00:10:16,280 --> 00:10:17,480 Speaker 4: really a good idea? 189 00:10:17,559 --> 00:10:20,120 Speaker 3: And I think, Michael, you've described this as a strategic 190 00:10:20,240 --> 00:10:23,920 Speaker 3: pivot from technology denial to export dominance. You know, this 191 00:10:24,040 --> 00:10:26,360 Speaker 3: idea that instead of trying to keep China from getting 192 00:10:26,400 --> 00:10:29,320 Speaker 3: the technology, you make everybody, the whole world, including China, 193 00:10:29,400 --> 00:10:32,240 Speaker 3: absolutely dependent on it. I mean that seems to me 194 00:10:32,320 --> 00:10:34,600 Speaker 3: a major shift, not just from policy a few months ago, 195 00:10:34,679 --> 00:10:38,480 Speaker 3: but actually from the Biden administration's kind of instincts on 196 00:10:38,520 --> 00:10:41,320 Speaker 3: this of actually trying to put controls on technology. But 197 00:10:41,720 --> 00:10:45,240 Speaker 3: I know that there's different levels of export control involved here. 198 00:10:45,280 --> 00:10:47,640 Speaker 3: So just talk me through it a bit, Michael. Is 199 00:10:47,679 --> 00:10:50,520 Speaker 3: this a complete change of strategy or is it a 200 00:10:50,600 --> 00:10:51,800 Speaker 3: bit murkier than that? 201 00:10:52,520 --> 00:10:55,720 Speaker 1: Absolutely, I would characterize it as very murky in the 202 00:10:55,760 --> 00:10:59,280 Speaker 1: sense that if you notice in the Air Action Plan itself, 203 00:10:59,320 --> 00:11:02,520 Speaker 1: there's a spection specifically for export controls, and that section 204 00:11:02,559 --> 00:11:05,920 Speaker 1: almost looks like it was written by the same Biden 205 00:11:05,960 --> 00:11:12,440 Speaker 1: administration export control specialists and thinkers use alongside exactly In 206 00:11:12,520 --> 00:11:16,440 Speaker 1: that one, it hints and signals at targeting component subsystems 207 00:11:16,480 --> 00:11:19,000 Speaker 1: of semiconductor tools. And what that means is, if you 208 00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:20,959 Speaker 1: think about the progression of export controls over the past 209 00:11:21,000 --> 00:11:24,000 Speaker 1: few years. We essentially went from controlling the chips then 210 00:11:24,040 --> 00:11:27,000 Speaker 1: to controlling the tools, and now the administration is thinking 211 00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:30,040 Speaker 1: about controlling the components that go into those tools. So 212 00:11:30,559 --> 00:11:32,720 Speaker 1: again with those components, there's a heavy reliance on the 213 00:11:32,800 --> 00:11:34,959 Speaker 1: US and Western suppliers. So it is an avenue of 214 00:11:35,040 --> 00:11:38,320 Speaker 1: vulnerability for China in terms of building up their domestic 215 00:11:38,360 --> 00:11:41,720 Speaker 1: semiconductor manufacturing ecosystem. But this has been a direction that 216 00:11:41,920 --> 00:11:44,160 Speaker 1: export controls have been going into for a while and 217 00:11:44,160 --> 00:11:46,040 Speaker 1: those in the field have been seeing if this was 218 00:11:46,080 --> 00:11:48,520 Speaker 1: going to happen. But it really does seem to be 219 00:11:48,559 --> 00:11:51,319 Speaker 1: at odds with letting H twenty chips go to China, 220 00:11:51,760 --> 00:11:55,359 Speaker 1: and now I can see maybe like a targeted strategy 221 00:11:55,520 --> 00:11:58,880 Speaker 1: of will deny them access to building up their own 222 00:11:58,920 --> 00:12:03,400 Speaker 1: manufacturing ecosystem while still letting them have access to chips, 223 00:12:03,400 --> 00:12:06,360 Speaker 1: so a Huai competitor doesn't build up. But on the 224 00:12:06,360 --> 00:12:08,200 Speaker 1: flip side, what it now means is you've enabled the 225 00:12:08,320 --> 00:12:10,760 Speaker 1: entire Chinese AI ecosystem to build off of that. And 226 00:12:10,800 --> 00:12:14,400 Speaker 1: if you notice what Anthropic and Open Ai have said, 227 00:12:14,400 --> 00:12:17,560 Speaker 1: they've always been fairly pro export control. Anthropic in particular 228 00:12:17,600 --> 00:12:20,960 Speaker 1: has gotten into it publicly with Nvidia sometimes around export controls, 229 00:12:21,320 --> 00:12:23,720 Speaker 1: because they understand that if you give age twenties and 230 00:12:23,760 --> 00:12:27,720 Speaker 1: advanced compute to China, you're empowering their AI companies to 231 00:12:27,760 --> 00:12:31,000 Speaker 1: become more competitive, and Tom directly with deep Seek with 232 00:12:31,080 --> 00:12:33,440 Speaker 1: Ali Baba with USAI companies. 233 00:12:34,240 --> 00:12:36,839 Speaker 3: So Pami, I would imagine other parts of the sort 234 00:12:36,880 --> 00:12:40,080 Speaker 3: of AI ecosystem are a bit concerned. I guess on 235 00:12:40,120 --> 00:12:43,160 Speaker 3: two fronts that there's this quite abrupt change of strategy 236 00:12:43,440 --> 00:12:46,920 Speaker 3: from the US, and also that it is in itself 237 00:12:46,960 --> 00:12:50,520 Speaker 3: a bit inconsistent and seemingly unstable. We often talk about 238 00:12:50,520 --> 00:12:54,240 Speaker 3: in Trumponomics about the sort of uncertainty being costly for 239 00:12:54,440 --> 00:12:57,760 Speaker 3: trade and for the real economy, but I imagine it's, 240 00:12:58,000 --> 00:13:00,200 Speaker 3: if anything, more costly if you're trying to think about 241 00:13:00,240 --> 00:13:01,000 Speaker 3: AI investments. 242 00:13:01,320 --> 00:13:04,600 Speaker 4: Absolutely, I'm sorry you said inconsistent, seemingly unstable. I feel 243 00:13:04,640 --> 00:13:06,720 Speaker 4: like that should be the tagline for the Trump administration. 244 00:13:07,640 --> 00:13:09,800 Speaker 4: And that's precisely like as Michael was saying. You know, 245 00:13:09,800 --> 00:13:12,960 Speaker 4: when you read the action plan, the actual behavior of 246 00:13:13,000 --> 00:13:16,320 Speaker 4: Trump doesn't correspond to what is being said in this plan. 247 00:13:16,559 --> 00:13:21,760 Speaker 4: You know, tough talk on export controls, and yet he hasn't. 248 00:13:20,720 --> 00:13:23,319 Speaker 3: On the most important one, all the biggest, most obvious. 249 00:13:23,080 --> 00:13:25,400 Speaker 4: Arguably the most important one. Yeah, I think this kind 250 00:13:25,440 --> 00:13:29,120 Speaker 4: of uncertainty is perhaps not great for companies. But on 251 00:13:29,160 --> 00:13:32,200 Speaker 4: the other hand, in Silicon Valley there's this term accelerationist. 252 00:13:32,440 --> 00:13:35,280 Speaker 4: So if you're an AI accelerationist, you want to move 253 00:13:35,320 --> 00:13:38,160 Speaker 4: fast and break things. Essentially, you believe the AI development 254 00:13:38,200 --> 00:13:41,360 Speaker 4: should speed up because the benefits to humanity will outweigh 255 00:13:41,679 --> 00:13:44,920 Speaker 4: whatever risks and problems come up along the way. And 256 00:13:45,400 --> 00:13:48,240 Speaker 4: what seems to be happening is the White House is 257 00:13:48,640 --> 00:13:52,960 Speaker 4: adopting this accelerationist approach that has taken hold in Silicon Valley. 258 00:13:52,960 --> 00:13:54,840 Speaker 4: You know, just even a year and a half ago, 259 00:13:55,520 --> 00:13:59,640 Speaker 4: so called AI doomers we're lobbying very hard in Washington 260 00:14:00,280 --> 00:14:03,400 Speaker 4: for more guardrails out of concern that AI could bring 261 00:14:03,559 --> 00:14:08,000 Speaker 4: existential risk to human civilization. Those voices are now completely quiet. 262 00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:11,520 Speaker 4: They've been drowned out by the accelerationists. So yes, well, 263 00:14:11,640 --> 00:14:14,880 Speaker 4: the uncertainty isn't great I think for tech companies. You know, 264 00:14:14,920 --> 00:14:18,199 Speaker 4: AMD is another one in Silicon Valley, anyone making hardware, 265 00:14:18,240 --> 00:14:20,560 Speaker 4: anyone selling to China. This is really good news. 266 00:14:21,240 --> 00:14:23,000 Speaker 3: Michael, I do want to go back to you on 267 00:14:23,120 --> 00:14:26,560 Speaker 3: how some of this sits within the broader economic policies, 268 00:14:26,640 --> 00:14:31,000 Speaker 3: broader trumponomics that we've seen over the last few months, 269 00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:34,360 Speaker 3: and you reference some of it at the beginning. Just 270 00:14:34,640 --> 00:14:38,440 Speaker 3: taught me through how important the negatives have been so 271 00:14:38,600 --> 00:14:41,640 Speaker 3: far on the issues that really matter to the development 272 00:14:41,680 --> 00:14:43,680 Speaker 3: of AI, and how that might sort of stack up 273 00:14:43,680 --> 00:14:45,840 Speaker 3: against anything that was said at the summit. 274 00:14:46,400 --> 00:14:49,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely so. I think the biggest issue with a 275 00:14:49,280 --> 00:14:51,520 Speaker 1: lot of this is the Air Action Plan lays out 276 00:14:51,600 --> 00:14:55,240 Speaker 1: very ambitious objectives and correctly diagnoses the areas on which 277 00:14:55,240 --> 00:14:58,440 Speaker 1: the US needs to work, but the environment and the 278 00:14:58,480 --> 00:15:02,120 Speaker 1: ecosystem currently that the Trump administration has created with many 279 00:15:02,160 --> 00:15:05,440 Speaker 1: of their policies is not conducive to running as fast 280 00:15:05,480 --> 00:15:09,120 Speaker 1: as possible on AI. I've talked about the workforce issues already. 281 00:15:09,120 --> 00:15:11,440 Speaker 1: I've talked about the energy issues already. But even if 282 00:15:11,440 --> 00:15:14,960 Speaker 1: we're speaking about globally, for example, on export controls, you 283 00:15:15,080 --> 00:15:18,640 Speaker 1: need close collaboration with a lot of these suppliers in 284 00:15:18,680 --> 00:15:21,160 Speaker 1: other countries to be able to set up a regime 285 00:15:21,200 --> 00:15:24,800 Speaker 1: that actually keeps China out of these technology choke points. 286 00:15:25,120 --> 00:15:27,640 Speaker 1: And the aaction plane itself have some very coercive and 287 00:15:27,720 --> 00:15:31,080 Speaker 1: muscular language and essentially saying that we welcome allies to 288 00:15:31,120 --> 00:15:33,240 Speaker 1: collaborate with US, and if not, we're going to use 289 00:15:33,240 --> 00:15:36,560 Speaker 1: secondary tariffs the foreign direct Product rule to induce allies 290 00:15:36,920 --> 00:15:40,960 Speaker 1: to participate in this export control regime. And so that 291 00:15:41,120 --> 00:15:43,720 Speaker 1: was something that really surprised me when I read it. 292 00:15:43,720 --> 00:15:46,200 Speaker 1: It wasn't something that the Biden administration when I was there, 293 00:15:46,400 --> 00:15:49,840 Speaker 1: ever seriously considered, though when negotiations got tough it came 294 00:15:49,840 --> 00:15:52,440 Speaker 1: close a few times. I will say it essentially shows 295 00:15:52,440 --> 00:15:56,480 Speaker 1: this Trump administration's view that they can force US tech 296 00:15:56,520 --> 00:15:58,400 Speaker 1: supremacy on the rest of the world. They're going to 297 00:15:58,440 --> 00:16:01,360 Speaker 1: do that through the expert packages that they've contemplated, despite 298 00:16:01,400 --> 00:16:03,000 Speaker 1: the fact that this is at the end of the day, 299 00:16:03,040 --> 00:16:06,200 Speaker 1: a very global industry, a very global ecosystem, and so 300 00:16:06,840 --> 00:16:10,280 Speaker 1: it's very unclear to me how exactly they're going to 301 00:16:10,320 --> 00:16:13,880 Speaker 1: make the US outrun China on this a supremacy race 302 00:16:13,960 --> 00:16:17,040 Speaker 1: if they're going to be so unilateral in their approach. 303 00:16:17,760 --> 00:16:20,720 Speaker 3: Just a small footnote to that, and you've made the 304 00:16:20,720 --> 00:16:23,840 Speaker 3: point in other analysis that you've done, if you're also 305 00:16:24,080 --> 00:16:27,400 Speaker 3: making the US itself a more closed economy, it's going 306 00:16:27,440 --> 00:16:30,440 Speaker 3: to be this sort of inside the Fortress America. You're 307 00:16:30,440 --> 00:16:32,040 Speaker 3: going to build all this stuff, and that's going to 308 00:16:32,040 --> 00:16:34,960 Speaker 3: sustain the supremacy, but you're making it harder for those 309 00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:38,560 Speaker 3: crucial inputs. I remember, Michael, you highlighted just that copper tariff. 310 00:16:38,680 --> 00:16:41,080 Speaker 3: Just remind us that even that one piece is going 311 00:16:41,120 --> 00:16:43,280 Speaker 3: to make things harder for a certain bit of the 312 00:16:43,840 --> 00:16:44,600 Speaker 3: chips industry. 313 00:16:45,280 --> 00:16:48,160 Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely, Donald Trump in this Air Action Plan talks 314 00:16:48,200 --> 00:16:52,080 Speaker 1: about building out AI infrastructure, data center semiconductor fabs. All 315 00:16:52,120 --> 00:16:54,760 Speaker 1: of those require a lot of inputs from a broad 316 00:16:54,960 --> 00:16:58,640 Speaker 1: imported data centers use immense amounts of copper in power 317 00:16:58,680 --> 00:17:01,800 Speaker 1: and cooling. Sem enter fabs even more so, you know, 318 00:17:02,560 --> 00:17:04,920 Speaker 1: copper just for power and cooling, but coppers found in 319 00:17:04,960 --> 00:17:07,440 Speaker 1: ships themselves, and not just to talk about copper. Were 320 00:17:07,480 --> 00:17:10,720 Speaker 1: contemplating Section two thirty two sectoral tariffs on semiconductors, and 321 00:17:10,760 --> 00:17:15,120 Speaker 1: those might involve semiconductor tools themselves. All the different consumables 322 00:17:15,119 --> 00:17:17,359 Speaker 1: and materials that will go into these fabs being built 323 00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:19,679 Speaker 1: in the US that they need to actually produce the 324 00:17:19,760 --> 00:17:21,920 Speaker 1: chips that go into AI. At the end of the day, 325 00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:24,840 Speaker 1: chip manufacturing and aidentist data centers require a lot of 326 00:17:24,840 --> 00:17:27,119 Speaker 1: global inputs that just doesn't square with this vision of 327 00:17:27,160 --> 00:17:31,160 Speaker 1: a fortress America, this unilateral vision that Trump is all in. 328 00:17:31,080 --> 00:17:34,040 Speaker 3: For Palmy, I mean, you weren't at the summit, though, 329 00:17:34,080 --> 00:17:36,000 Speaker 3: I imagine that you had your spies there in one 330 00:17:36,080 --> 00:17:39,600 Speaker 3: for or another. And was any of this these sort 331 00:17:39,600 --> 00:17:44,600 Speaker 3: of tensions, parent contradictions voice there. I mean, even the 332 00:17:44,640 --> 00:17:47,000 Speaker 3: sort of basic fact that all that he's talking about 333 00:17:47,040 --> 00:17:49,520 Speaker 3: building this stuff and getting rid of red tape and 334 00:17:49,560 --> 00:17:52,600 Speaker 3: know the bureaucracy at the same time as actually the 335 00:17:53,200 --> 00:17:55,880 Speaker 3: important components that you really need to make this stuff 336 00:17:55,920 --> 00:17:58,000 Speaker 3: as becoming more and more expensive and harder to get. 337 00:17:58,080 --> 00:18:00,320 Speaker 3: Was there anybody who was saying, hang on a minute. 338 00:18:00,440 --> 00:18:02,240 Speaker 4: Not that I could see. I mean, I was checking 339 00:18:02,240 --> 00:18:04,960 Speaker 4: out a lot of social media. There's a there's a 340 00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:08,480 Speaker 4: website called tech Meme that aggregates all the chatter about 341 00:18:08,480 --> 00:18:12,480 Speaker 4: any particular topic, and everything that was going on Twitter 342 00:18:13,040 --> 00:18:15,680 Speaker 4: was pretty much praising the bill, And I mean that's 343 00:18:15,960 --> 00:18:18,639 Speaker 4: just a kind of cacophony of voices from Silicon Valley 344 00:18:18,640 --> 00:18:21,439 Speaker 4: are just happy to see things moving head so quickly, 345 00:18:21,560 --> 00:18:24,679 Speaker 4: you know, because the whole plan covers so many different things, 346 00:18:24,680 --> 00:18:27,680 Speaker 4: so it's it's kind of hard to look deep into 347 00:18:27,720 --> 00:18:31,119 Speaker 4: the weeds, as Michael has noted, all these very important contradictions, 348 00:18:31,600 --> 00:18:35,240 Speaker 4: and so my sense is that actually people aren't taking 349 00:18:35,359 --> 00:18:38,400 Speaker 4: much note of those potential limitations. 350 00:18:38,720 --> 00:18:40,960 Speaker 3: And is it just because they're so lofty and big 351 00:18:41,000 --> 00:18:42,960 Speaker 3: picture that they don't really think about how do you 352 00:18:43,000 --> 00:18:43,959 Speaker 3: actually build lotty? 353 00:18:44,520 --> 00:18:47,600 Speaker 4: They're not lofty, they're galactic. I mean, people in Silicon 354 00:18:47,680 --> 00:18:50,239 Speaker 4: Valley are. They're living in the future. And that's kind 355 00:18:50,280 --> 00:18:53,040 Speaker 4: of what makes the regions so successful is they don't 356 00:18:53,040 --> 00:18:58,040 Speaker 4: see themselves constrained by traditional limits that might limit people 357 00:18:58,119 --> 00:19:00,280 Speaker 4: and entrepreneurs in other parts of the world. There's just 358 00:19:00,320 --> 00:19:02,840 Speaker 4: an incredible amount of belief that has helped propel so 359 00:19:02,920 --> 00:19:06,880 Speaker 4: many of these businesses, not alongside anti competitive practice, of course, 360 00:19:06,920 --> 00:19:07,679 Speaker 4: as they get bigger. 361 00:19:08,600 --> 00:19:11,639 Speaker 3: I mean historically people animated by just a vision of 362 00:19:11,680 --> 00:19:15,639 Speaker 3: the future. It hasn't always gone well, but aside, oh absolutely, 363 00:19:15,720 --> 00:19:18,359 Speaker 3: But the I mean, just to come back on this 364 00:19:18,720 --> 00:19:20,679 Speaker 3: safety point, and I just noticed, I mean, there's lots 365 00:19:20,680 --> 00:19:22,679 Speaker 3: of people who are writing about it, but asimas Are, 366 00:19:22,720 --> 00:19:25,000 Speaker 3: who's the British kind of blogger and tech entrepreneur who 367 00:19:25,000 --> 00:19:27,480 Speaker 3: writes often about these issues, he had a sort of 368 00:19:27,520 --> 00:19:29,680 Speaker 3: quite a nice line. He said, the upside of all 369 00:19:29,680 --> 00:19:32,760 Speaker 3: this is speed. The downside, mainly for the rest of 370 00:19:32,800 --> 00:19:37,040 Speaker 3: the world, is a regulatory vacuum primed for social, environmental, 371 00:19:37,080 --> 00:19:39,920 Speaker 3: and geopolitical blowback. Do you think that's right, Oh one. 372 00:19:40,760 --> 00:19:42,720 Speaker 4: But I think at the same time, even in a 373 00:19:42,760 --> 00:19:45,480 Speaker 4: place like Europe, where we have the European Union's AI 374 00:19:45,560 --> 00:19:48,840 Speaker 4: Act that still has a lot of problems. The act 375 00:19:48,880 --> 00:19:52,240 Speaker 4: in itself is incredibly vague, It's got loopholes. I think, 376 00:19:52,480 --> 00:19:55,000 Speaker 4: just very briefly, one of the biggest problems we're seeing 377 00:19:55,000 --> 00:20:00,560 Speaker 4: today with AI is addiction to AI companions, people forming 378 00:20:00,840 --> 00:20:05,639 Speaker 4: emotional bonds with them, getting emotionally manipulated, some people experiencing psychosis. 379 00:20:05,680 --> 00:20:08,520 Speaker 4: There have been many, many stories about people getting chatchypt 380 00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:09,640 Speaker 4: induced psychosis. 381 00:20:10,040 --> 00:20:12,479 Speaker 3: No, you wrote a very good I'd recommend everybody in 382 00:20:12,520 --> 00:20:14,520 Speaker 3: your column about it, which made me think about it. 383 00:20:14,560 --> 00:20:16,640 Speaker 3: But it was also even for people who don't get 384 00:20:16,640 --> 00:20:19,639 Speaker 3: psychotic episodes, you lose your critical thinking capacity. 385 00:20:19,720 --> 00:20:22,480 Speaker 4: But that's because these models are kind of in much 386 00:20:22,520 --> 00:20:25,639 Speaker 4: the same way social media was optimized for engagement to 387 00:20:25,720 --> 00:20:28,840 Speaker 4: keep you talking, and so many of them in Chatgypt 388 00:20:28,960 --> 00:20:32,600 Speaker 4: in particular, tend to validate the user, and so you 389 00:20:32,680 --> 00:20:35,879 Speaker 4: have these unintended consequences that it would have been impossible 390 00:20:35,920 --> 00:20:39,160 Speaker 4: to predict a year ago even and so writing regulation 391 00:20:39,320 --> 00:20:42,000 Speaker 4: is really like chasing a bullet. And so, yes, we're 392 00:20:42,040 --> 00:20:45,440 Speaker 4: in a regulatory vacuum, made worse by the fact now 393 00:20:45,520 --> 00:20:48,960 Speaker 4: that these companies are moving so quickly and deploying so quickly, 394 00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:51,520 Speaker 4: and we're really I mean, that's why I think the 395 00:20:51,640 --> 00:20:55,200 Speaker 4: UK really needs to step up its own regulatory efforts here, 396 00:20:55,240 --> 00:20:57,560 Speaker 4: because I think the UK is a great tech regulator. 397 00:20:57,960 --> 00:20:59,600 Speaker 3: Well, I know that there were some of these basic 398 00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:02,320 Speaker 3: issues they've really struggled with, including AI safety. So I 399 00:21:02,359 --> 00:21:05,960 Speaker 3: wouldn't hold your breath, but hope, maybe Michael was one 400 00:21:06,160 --> 00:21:08,359 Speaker 3: thing I wanted to mention that we haven't touched on. 401 00:21:08,440 --> 00:21:09,880 Speaker 3: And then we're going to run out of time. We've 402 00:21:09,880 --> 00:21:11,840 Speaker 3: said all the way through. The trade off that's been 403 00:21:11,880 --> 00:21:15,040 Speaker 3: made with this action plan is over sort of speed 404 00:21:15,119 --> 00:21:17,840 Speaker 3: over safety and the junking of the sort of a 405 00:21:17,880 --> 00:21:21,920 Speaker 3: lot of the guardrails around ethics and AI safety that 406 00:21:22,320 --> 00:21:25,679 Speaker 3: President Biden at least tried to begin to develop, But 407 00:21:25,760 --> 00:21:28,160 Speaker 3: there's one area where they are still focused on safety. 408 00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:30,879 Speaker 3: They want to keep us safe from being forced to 409 00:21:30,880 --> 00:21:35,080 Speaker 3: think about climate change and from the woke mind virus. 410 00:21:35,119 --> 00:21:36,840 Speaker 3: So just talk us through that, because there's a lot 411 00:21:36,840 --> 00:21:40,560 Speaker 3: in here which is actually about getting that out of AI. 412 00:21:40,960 --> 00:21:44,439 Speaker 1: Yeah. So I remember reading that section and trying to 413 00:21:44,520 --> 00:21:47,720 Speaker 1: understand how exactly they were going to implement it, and 414 00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:51,119 Speaker 1: the executive order also just came out that still doesn't 415 00:21:51,119 --> 00:21:53,960 Speaker 1: go into much detail about it. I think this fundamentally 416 00:21:54,119 --> 00:21:57,879 Speaker 1: is entirely a political move to, you know, highlight a 417 00:21:58,080 --> 00:22:01,159 Speaker 1: issue that I think with an AI is a major 418 00:22:02,080 --> 00:22:03,080 Speaker 1: area of concern. 419 00:22:03,640 --> 00:22:05,840 Speaker 3: Palmi, I guess just to give you the last word, 420 00:22:06,240 --> 00:22:09,520 Speaker 3: and I may be miss characterizing, but one of the 421 00:22:09,520 --> 00:22:12,800 Speaker 3: columns that you wrote, I think immediately after Deep Seat 422 00:22:12,880 --> 00:22:15,280 Speaker 3: came out or soon afterwards, and you're sort of reflecting 423 00:22:15,320 --> 00:22:18,800 Speaker 3: on how significant that was and changing our view of 424 00:22:18,840 --> 00:22:23,560 Speaker 3: how the AI race might turn out. And you suggested 425 00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:28,040 Speaker 3: that actually the AI not being US dominated and being 426 00:22:28,119 --> 00:22:31,639 Speaker 3: more open source or at least open weight, might be 427 00:22:31,680 --> 00:22:33,720 Speaker 3: healthier for the world. Do you still think that, And 428 00:22:33,800 --> 00:22:35,720 Speaker 3: I guess there's a risk that you know, China could 429 00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:37,520 Speaker 3: have won, it might be China dominated. 430 00:22:37,680 --> 00:22:40,359 Speaker 4: Yeah, And I think I don't agree with the kind 431 00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:44,240 Speaker 4: of state controlled aspect of Chinese AI. But I think 432 00:22:44,359 --> 00:22:47,600 Speaker 4: the best thing about Deep seek was that it raised 433 00:22:47,600 --> 00:22:50,680 Speaker 4: the specter of more competition, and it raised this notion 434 00:22:50,720 --> 00:22:54,800 Speaker 4: that maybe the Western Silicon Valley companies weren't the guaranteed 435 00:22:54,800 --> 00:22:58,400 Speaker 4: winners of this AI race. Here were these other companies 436 00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:00,800 Speaker 4: coming out of China that were cheap, that we're free, 437 00:23:01,320 --> 00:23:03,879 Speaker 4: and that we're just as good. This isn't really an 438 00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:07,119 Speaker 4: issue about American companies. This is more about companies that 439 00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:11,040 Speaker 4: dominate the market, as we've seen already with cloud companies 440 00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:14,280 Speaker 4: from Silicon Valley e commerce companies. You know, it's almost 441 00:23:14,280 --> 00:23:17,040 Speaker 4: impossible now to open an e commerce business because of Amazon, 442 00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:20,600 Speaker 4: and so many parts of the wider market have absolutely 443 00:23:20,640 --> 00:23:24,879 Speaker 4: been warped by the anti competitive and monopolistic behavior of 444 00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:28,080 Speaker 4: big tech. And what would be terrible would to just 445 00:23:28,320 --> 00:23:33,040 Speaker 4: see that continue. With AI and AI being so transformative, 446 00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:38,520 Speaker 4: so emotionally powerful, cognitively powerful, it can influence how people 447 00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:41,080 Speaker 4: think about things. People are using it to make daily 448 00:23:41,240 --> 00:23:44,600 Speaker 4: life decisions and write their own emails and reports. That 449 00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:47,280 Speaker 4: leaves an incredible amount of power in the hands of 450 00:23:47,359 --> 00:23:50,359 Speaker 4: just a few companies who are building these models. And 451 00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:52,520 Speaker 4: so if there are more on the market, I think 452 00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:54,760 Speaker 4: that's a great thing. I think there needs to be 453 00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:58,919 Speaker 4: more competition. Whether that will actually continue to play out 454 00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:01,439 Speaker 4: as it's still playing out now, I think is an 455 00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:02,119 Speaker 4: open question. 456 00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:06,040 Speaker 3: Well, it's still playing out. There's some very wise words 457 00:24:06,040 --> 00:24:08,639 Speaker 3: from both of you, some of which I suspect the 458 00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:12,040 Speaker 3: President would think we're bordering on trees, treacherous, oh the 459 00:24:12,119 --> 00:24:16,040 Speaker 3: prospect of you know, non American leadership. But thank you 460 00:24:16,119 --> 00:24:26,280 Speaker 3: very much, both of you. Thank you, thank you, thanks 461 00:24:26,280 --> 00:24:28,600 Speaker 3: for listening to Trumponomics from Bloomberg. It was hosted by 462 00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:31,280 Speaker 3: me Stephanie Flanders, and I was joined by Bloomberg's Pame 463 00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:37,320 Speaker 3: Olsen and Michael Deng. Trumponomics is produced by Samasadi and 464 00:24:37,359 --> 00:24:41,000 Speaker 3: Moses and with help from Amy Keene and special thanks 465 00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:44,440 Speaker 3: this week to Nervy Shavin. Sound design is by Blake 466 00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:47,879 Speaker 3: Maples and Sage Bowman is the head of Bloomberg Podcast. 467 00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:51,399 Speaker 3: Please help others find it and enjoy it by rating 468 00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:53,800 Speaker 3: and reviewing Trumponomics wherever you listened.