1 00:00:00,560 --> 00:00:03,680 Speaker 1: This is Dana Perkins and your listening to Switched on 2 00:00:04,120 --> 00:00:08,280 Speaker 1: the BNAF podcast. Draft guidance for the US hydrogen Production 3 00:00:08,400 --> 00:00:11,959 Speaker 1: tax Credit was introduced in December of twenty twenty three, 4 00:00:12,080 --> 00:00:15,360 Speaker 1: with the aim of promoting decarbonization in hard to abate 5 00:00:15,400 --> 00:00:18,560 Speaker 1: sectors and enhancing energy security in the country as well. 6 00:00:18,760 --> 00:00:23,040 Speaker 1: The draft guidance requires electrolysis projects to meet additional criteria, 7 00:00:23,079 --> 00:00:27,320 Speaker 1: including hourly matching between clean energy production and power consumption. 8 00:00:27,720 --> 00:00:30,960 Speaker 1: While some applaud the draft guidance for preventing greenwashing and 9 00:00:31,080 --> 00:00:35,879 Speaker 1: driving real decarbonization, others view these requirements as excessive in 10 00:00:35,920 --> 00:00:39,640 Speaker 1: fear they could potentially discourage investment in green hydrogen production. 11 00:00:40,040 --> 00:00:43,080 Speaker 1: On today's show, we bring you a discussion from bnaf's 12 00:00:43,120 --> 00:00:46,000 Speaker 1: recent summit in New York, where Martin Tangler, who leads 13 00:00:46,040 --> 00:00:50,280 Speaker 1: BNF's hydrogen research, spoke with Kathleen Baron, Executive vice president 14 00:00:50,400 --> 00:00:54,560 Speaker 1: and chief Strategy Officer at Constellation, alongside Claire Bahar, chief 15 00:00:54,560 --> 00:00:58,160 Speaker 1: commercial officer at High Store Energy, and Elena Scaltreaty, chief 16 00:00:58,160 --> 00:01:01,760 Speaker 1: commercial officer at TOPSO and l. Lastly, Andy Vezy, President 17 00:01:01,800 --> 00:01:05,200 Speaker 1: and chief executive officer at forties U North America. During 18 00:01:05,240 --> 00:01:08,360 Speaker 1: their lively discussion of the forty five v tax credit. 19 00:01:08,480 --> 00:01:11,720 Speaker 1: They considered whether a heavy focus on green hydrogen production 20 00:01:12,040 --> 00:01:15,800 Speaker 1: overlooks hydrogen adoption, and they compared the US to Europe, 21 00:01:15,840 --> 00:01:19,040 Speaker 1: where you do see demand side incentives. As they consider 22 00:01:19,120 --> 00:01:21,800 Speaker 1: what it will take to build out a hydrogen industry 23 00:01:21,840 --> 00:01:24,640 Speaker 1: in the United States, they got into which technologies are 24 00:01:24,680 --> 00:01:27,720 Speaker 1: going to help them get there and the associated costs. 25 00:01:28,160 --> 00:01:32,199 Speaker 1: Agendas and videos from previous b andF summits, including this one, 26 00:01:32,400 --> 00:01:35,600 Speaker 1: can be found at BNF dot com under the events tab. 27 00:01:35,840 --> 00:01:38,320 Speaker 1: As always, if you like this podcast, make sure to 28 00:01:38,360 --> 00:01:42,280 Speaker 1: subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts, 29 00:01:42,319 --> 00:01:44,679 Speaker 1: and consider giving us a review to make us more 30 00:01:44,720 --> 00:01:48,080 Speaker 1: discoverable by others. Right now, though, let's hear Martin's panel 31 00:01:48,160 --> 00:01:51,560 Speaker 1: from the BNF summit in New York titled Controversial Shifts 32 00:01:51,600 --> 00:01:59,360 Speaker 1: in America's green hydrogen Landscape. 33 00:02:03,000 --> 00:02:04,000 Speaker 2: Let's jump straight in. 34 00:02:04,280 --> 00:02:09,240 Speaker 3: So when President Biden signed the Inflation Reduction Act in 35 00:02:09,360 --> 00:02:13,320 Speaker 3: August twenty twenty two, many in the hydrogen industry saw 36 00:02:13,360 --> 00:02:16,960 Speaker 3: it as a turning point, as a real game changer. 37 00:02:17,000 --> 00:02:20,280 Speaker 3: A three dollar per kilogram tax credit for anybody who 38 00:02:20,400 --> 00:02:24,880 Speaker 3: can make hydrogen with very, very low carbon emissions, but 39 00:02:25,000 --> 00:02:28,400 Speaker 3: almost two years later, no one has actually received a 40 00:02:28,400 --> 00:02:32,720 Speaker 3: single dollar because we're waiting for guidance on how these 41 00:02:32,760 --> 00:02:36,920 Speaker 3: credits can be claimed. In December, the Treasury and the 42 00:02:36,960 --> 00:02:41,840 Speaker 3: IRS published a draft of this guidance, and this draft 43 00:02:41,919 --> 00:02:46,800 Speaker 3: is quite controversial for including the so called three pillars 44 00:02:47,040 --> 00:02:54,320 Speaker 3: of additionality, time matching, and deliverability. Most companies want leniency 45 00:02:54,440 --> 00:02:59,040 Speaker 3: on these three pillars, but some are in favor. Billions 46 00:02:59,080 --> 00:03:00,000 Speaker 3: of dollars. 47 00:02:59,680 --> 00:03:03,120 Speaker 2: Are a stake in this debate, and everybody agrees on 48 00:03:03,120 --> 00:03:03,519 Speaker 2: one thing. 49 00:03:04,040 --> 00:03:08,040 Speaker 3: We need final rules as soon as possible, and this 50 00:03:08,080 --> 00:03:13,000 Speaker 3: is where we get to our panelists. Claire, you've become 51 00:03:13,080 --> 00:03:17,680 Speaker 3: quite famous recently for coming out in favor of these 52 00:03:18,120 --> 00:03:21,440 Speaker 3: really strict rules. So I'm going to quote your recent 53 00:03:21,480 --> 00:03:24,160 Speaker 3: testimony at a public hearing on March the twenty fifth, 54 00:03:24,440 --> 00:03:28,960 Speaker 3: where you said high store energy urges the Treasury and 55 00:03:29,000 --> 00:03:33,239 Speaker 3: the IRS to adopt the three pillars approach, requiring additionality 56 00:03:33,240 --> 00:03:37,080 Speaker 3: from day one, strong deliverability standards, and a phase in 57 00:03:37,560 --> 00:03:40,920 Speaker 3: of hourly matching by twenty twenty eight. First, can you 58 00:03:40,960 --> 00:03:43,040 Speaker 3: explain to us what these three pillars are so we 59 00:03:43,400 --> 00:03:46,600 Speaker 3: educate the audience, And second, what makes it possible for 60 00:03:46,680 --> 00:03:49,280 Speaker 3: you to argue in favor of these three pillars when 61 00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:53,520 Speaker 3: some of our other panelists and most of the industry 62 00:03:53,560 --> 00:03:55,960 Speaker 3: seem to be in favor of some leniency. 63 00:03:56,560 --> 00:03:57,000 Speaker 4: Perfect. 64 00:03:57,200 --> 00:03:59,680 Speaker 5: Thank you Martin, and thank you Bin Yaf for the 65 00:03:59,720 --> 00:04:03,600 Speaker 5: upper to need to speak today. I'll start with defining 66 00:04:03,640 --> 00:04:07,640 Speaker 5: what the three pillars are. The three pillars are strict 67 00:04:07,840 --> 00:04:14,080 Speaker 5: guidelines in relation to the guidelines. 68 00:04:13,360 --> 00:04:15,720 Speaker 4: For grid connected electrilizers. 69 00:04:16,200 --> 00:04:19,880 Speaker 5: And these guidelines are to ensure that there is robust 70 00:04:19,920 --> 00:04:24,919 Speaker 5: accounting for the carbon emissions associated with grid connected electrilizers. 71 00:04:25,360 --> 00:04:28,720 Speaker 5: And so, starting with additionality, it's a requirement that new 72 00:04:30,560 --> 00:04:36,880 Speaker 5: new green electrons are powering the electrilizers. For regionality, this 73 00:04:37,000 --> 00:04:41,479 Speaker 5: is to ensure that the clean hydrogen production is in 74 00:04:41,520 --> 00:04:47,279 Speaker 5: the same location as the clean electricity that's powering them. 75 00:04:47,560 --> 00:04:52,599 Speaker 5: And this is to ensure that you're not claiming green 76 00:04:53,240 --> 00:04:57,240 Speaker 5: electrons in West Texas, for example. Are then correlating to 77 00:04:57,320 --> 00:05:00,360 Speaker 5: your project, your hydrogen project in the new work. 78 00:05:00,680 --> 00:05:02,200 Speaker 4: And then lastly is time matching. 79 00:05:02,240 --> 00:05:05,400 Speaker 5: That's to ensure that the clean electricity is being produced 80 00:05:05,400 --> 00:05:09,480 Speaker 5: at the same time as the green hydrogen production. So 81 00:05:10,120 --> 00:05:13,240 Speaker 5: the guidelines have a transition periods similar to that of 82 00:05:13,320 --> 00:05:18,520 Speaker 5: the EU that allow for an annual matching until twenty 83 00:05:18,640 --> 00:05:22,520 Speaker 5: twenty eight, and then from then on it's an hourly matching. 84 00:05:23,120 --> 00:05:26,200 Speaker 5: And the reason why these three pillars are so important, 85 00:05:26,360 --> 00:05:30,200 Speaker 5: it's to ensure that we're investing in long term infrastructure 86 00:05:30,720 --> 00:05:36,280 Speaker 5: that are decreasing emissions instead of in fact increasing emissions. 87 00:05:36,279 --> 00:05:41,120 Speaker 5: And unfortunately, today our electric grid is still predominantly fossil 88 00:05:41,120 --> 00:05:45,039 Speaker 5: fuel based sixty seventy, as high as eighty percent in 89 00:05:45,040 --> 00:05:46,440 Speaker 5: some locations. 90 00:05:46,320 --> 00:05:49,960 Speaker 4: And so if you are putting on a large. 91 00:05:51,080 --> 00:05:56,479 Speaker 5: Load and you're not then adding more renewable electricity such 92 00:05:56,520 --> 00:06:00,719 Speaker 5: as wind or solar, you are in fact increasing the 93 00:06:00,760 --> 00:06:04,240 Speaker 5: demand for fossil fuels that would be backfilled by peakers 94 00:06:04,279 --> 00:06:08,600 Speaker 5: that are coal and natural gas and so high store energy. 95 00:06:09,320 --> 00:06:12,000 Speaker 4: You know, really applauds the Treasury. 96 00:06:11,600 --> 00:06:14,920 Speaker 5: For taking this stance and ensuring that the three pillars 97 00:06:14,960 --> 00:06:20,039 Speaker 5: are upheld. And from our perspective, our project prior to 98 00:06:20,080 --> 00:06:23,600 Speaker 5: the guidelines is going to be three pillar compliant from 99 00:06:23,680 --> 00:06:28,400 Speaker 5: day one. And our first project is the Mississipi Clean 100 00:06:28,480 --> 00:06:33,040 Speaker 5: Hydrogen Hub, which couples on site, off grid dedicated renewables 101 00:06:33,320 --> 00:06:38,120 Speaker 5: for our electrolysis production and salt cavern storage CO located 102 00:06:38,520 --> 00:06:42,520 Speaker 5: and storage gives us the ability to store access hydrogen 103 00:06:43,000 --> 00:06:48,159 Speaker 5: and then it is dispatchable on demand four times when. 104 00:06:48,040 --> 00:06:50,720 Speaker 4: The wind isn't blowing and the sun isn't shining. 105 00:06:51,279 --> 00:06:58,360 Speaker 5: And you know, holistically, we're in this business to decarbonize 106 00:06:58,680 --> 00:07:04,400 Speaker 5: and it's not about just having another another molecule. We say, 107 00:07:04,480 --> 00:07:08,919 Speaker 5: if you're going to burn natural gas, burnatural gas, don't. 108 00:07:08,800 --> 00:07:12,880 Speaker 4: Go through all the loops, okay to get there. 109 00:07:13,160 --> 00:07:17,240 Speaker 3: So it's a combination of those off gride renewables as 110 00:07:17,240 --> 00:07:19,679 Speaker 3: opposed to on grid, which I think that's that's relatively 111 00:07:19,720 --> 00:07:22,280 Speaker 3: easy to understand. You managed to save some costs by 112 00:07:22,320 --> 00:07:25,000 Speaker 3: not paying some of the expensive grid fees, and then 113 00:07:25,000 --> 00:07:28,880 Speaker 3: those that salt cavern storage, right, and the salt caverns 114 00:07:28,960 --> 00:07:31,800 Speaker 3: is to me that that's a really really key factor 115 00:07:31,880 --> 00:07:33,560 Speaker 3: of the projects that you're building. 116 00:07:34,200 --> 00:07:35,360 Speaker 2: And salt caverns. 117 00:07:35,000 --> 00:07:38,000 Speaker 3: Are quite quite rare, right, You don't get to build 118 00:07:38,040 --> 00:07:39,960 Speaker 3: salt caverns just just anywhere. I don't think you could 119 00:07:39,960 --> 00:07:41,800 Speaker 3: build a salt cabon Europe because we're not sitting on 120 00:07:41,840 --> 00:07:45,040 Speaker 3: a salt deposit right now. So would you consider building 121 00:07:45,080 --> 00:07:48,200 Speaker 3: projects if you didn't have salt caverns? 122 00:07:49,200 --> 00:07:52,520 Speaker 5: Well, So the salt cavern storage is really key for 123 00:07:52,600 --> 00:07:57,240 Speaker 5: both the scale and the duration. It's that long duration, 124 00:07:57,360 --> 00:08:01,680 Speaker 5: that multi day, multi week and seasonal energy storage that 125 00:08:01,720 --> 00:08:05,200 Speaker 5: we're prioritizing in the off take markets we're looking at, 126 00:08:05,240 --> 00:08:09,480 Speaker 5: which are the energy intensive industries where direct electrification is 127 00:08:09,800 --> 00:08:13,040 Speaker 5: not a viable option. And it's these off take markets, 128 00:08:13,120 --> 00:08:17,560 Speaker 5: for example, steel, that are the first movers that are 129 00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:22,160 Speaker 5: already there with their customers showing the green premium that they. 130 00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:23,920 Speaker 4: Want a zero carbon solution. 131 00:08:24,240 --> 00:08:29,120 Speaker 5: And from the commercial point of view, this transparency in 132 00:08:29,160 --> 00:08:33,280 Speaker 5: carbon emissions is exactly what our customers are asking for to. 133 00:08:33,480 --> 00:08:34,880 Speaker 4: Ensure that they can. 134 00:08:36,400 --> 00:08:39,840 Speaker 5: Account for their scope one, two and three emissions and 135 00:08:39,960 --> 00:08:43,480 Speaker 5: most importantly that the products they're producing today in the 136 00:08:43,559 --> 00:08:48,000 Speaker 5: United States with clean hydrogen is competitive and accepted on 137 00:08:48,559 --> 00:08:49,560 Speaker 5: a global scale. 138 00:08:49,679 --> 00:08:52,240 Speaker 3: Okay, so customers wanted one final one before we get 139 00:08:52,240 --> 00:08:54,720 Speaker 3: to Andy, who I sure, I'm sure has very different, 140 00:08:54,920 --> 00:08:57,560 Speaker 3: very different view on this. So would your position be different, 141 00:08:57,640 --> 00:09:01,240 Speaker 3: Claire if your project was not based on top of 142 00:09:01,280 --> 00:09:04,680 Speaker 3: salt caverns, which you'd be also asking for some leniency There. 143 00:09:05,280 --> 00:09:10,440 Speaker 5: No, because leniency with the market in such infancy, there 144 00:09:10,520 --> 00:09:16,520 Speaker 5: is urgency, but we cannot be sacrificing urgency with investing 145 00:09:17,000 --> 00:09:21,240 Speaker 5: in infrastructure that's going to continue to lock in fossil fuels. 146 00:09:21,280 --> 00:09:23,320 Speaker 4: The goal is decarbonization and. 147 00:09:23,240 --> 00:09:27,360 Speaker 5: To transition off of fossil fuels and hydrogen is an 148 00:09:27,400 --> 00:09:31,960 Speaker 5: excellent solution because it provides that molecule that can be 149 00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:36,200 Speaker 5: stored and transported over long distances, and we need to 150 00:09:36,240 --> 00:09:40,000 Speaker 5: be prioritizing it in the areas of the economy where 151 00:09:40,360 --> 00:09:44,959 Speaker 5: direct electrification is not a viable option, and not trying 152 00:09:45,000 --> 00:09:47,760 Speaker 5: to have it spread thin, wide and thin. 153 00:09:48,160 --> 00:09:49,359 Speaker 4: It needs to be concentrated. 154 00:09:50,080 --> 00:09:51,000 Speaker 2: Okay, good to know. 155 00:09:51,160 --> 00:09:53,559 Speaker 3: So no leniency even if you don't have if you 156 00:09:53,600 --> 00:09:54,720 Speaker 3: didn't have salt caverns. 157 00:09:55,080 --> 00:09:55,360 Speaker 2: Okay. 158 00:09:55,360 --> 00:09:58,440 Speaker 3: I wonder what Andy has to say, because Andy, you 159 00:09:58,640 --> 00:10:02,160 Speaker 3: are one of the strongest, is asking for those more 160 00:10:02,280 --> 00:10:06,720 Speaker 3: lenient rules in your testimony in that same hearing where 161 00:10:06,760 --> 00:10:10,840 Speaker 3: Claire was speaking in March, you said, I'm quoting forty 162 00:10:10,880 --> 00:10:14,000 Speaker 3: five V in its current form is a strait jacket 163 00:10:14,679 --> 00:10:18,160 Speaker 3: on the energy on the emerging industry. The only solution 164 00:10:18,360 --> 00:10:24,160 Speaker 3: is to add a minimum include grandfathering first mover projects. 165 00:10:24,880 --> 00:10:26,920 Speaker 2: First, can you explain what grandfathering means? 166 00:10:27,120 --> 00:10:29,360 Speaker 3: And then second, why do you feel this way if 167 00:10:29,400 --> 00:10:33,200 Speaker 3: Claire says that she can make her projects work even 168 00:10:33,480 --> 00:10:34,520 Speaker 3: with those strict rules. 169 00:10:34,720 --> 00:10:34,960 Speaker 6: Yeah. 170 00:10:35,320 --> 00:10:37,360 Speaker 7: Sure, And first of all, let me say that I 171 00:10:37,400 --> 00:10:42,920 Speaker 7: hope everybody's sitting in this panel is wildly successful because 172 00:10:42,600 --> 00:10:49,040 Speaker 7: because we need very low carbon hydrogen, right, we need 173 00:10:49,080 --> 00:10:52,040 Speaker 7: it as soon as possible, but we needed to have 174 00:10:52,120 --> 00:10:55,400 Speaker 7: it at the lowest possible cost, right. I think there's 175 00:10:55,440 --> 00:10:58,760 Speaker 7: a lot in here to unpack. And you know, I 176 00:10:58,760 --> 00:11:00,920 Speaker 7: think we've talked before. I said that you know where 177 00:11:00,920 --> 00:11:04,880 Speaker 7: you stand on this issue starts with where you sit, right, 178 00:11:05,360 --> 00:11:07,439 Speaker 7: And if I was sitting in a similar position, then 179 00:11:07,440 --> 00:11:10,120 Speaker 7: I could basically say, Yep, I'm supportive of these things 180 00:11:10,120 --> 00:11:12,559 Speaker 7: because I know why seventy five percent of the industry 181 00:11:12,600 --> 00:11:14,600 Speaker 7: can't compete with me because I can't do it and 182 00:11:14,640 --> 00:11:17,720 Speaker 7: it's all price. So I think that's great. But here's 183 00:11:17,720 --> 00:11:19,719 Speaker 7: the deal. We're not doing projects here. We're trying to 184 00:11:19,720 --> 00:11:23,200 Speaker 7: build an industry. We're trying to build an industry, and 185 00:11:23,240 --> 00:11:26,200 Speaker 7: the key in building the industry is driving the cost 186 00:11:26,440 --> 00:11:30,480 Speaker 7: of every molecule down. I always get challenged, well, nobody 187 00:11:30,520 --> 00:11:33,680 Speaker 7: wants to buy green hydrogen. No, nobody wants to pay 188 00:11:33,720 --> 00:11:36,120 Speaker 7: the price. But if I could sell that green molecule 189 00:11:36,120 --> 00:11:39,920 Speaker 7: at the same price as grey. Everybody would buy green hydrogen. 190 00:11:39,920 --> 00:11:42,520 Speaker 7: We'd all be happy as heck. Right, So how do 191 00:11:42,559 --> 00:11:46,559 Speaker 7: you get there? Well, the Body Administration in the Inflation 192 00:11:46,640 --> 00:11:49,920 Speaker 7: Reduction Act anticipated driving the cost of that molecule down 193 00:11:50,080 --> 00:11:52,959 Speaker 7: by twenty thirty to a dollar a kilogram. 194 00:11:53,280 --> 00:11:56,080 Speaker 6: And this was really to incent and get this started. Right, 195 00:11:56,640 --> 00:11:58,400 Speaker 6: And why is it so important that we have as 196 00:11:58,440 --> 00:11:59,600 Speaker 6: many projects going now? 197 00:11:59,640 --> 00:12:02,040 Speaker 7: Include I mean the early ones that don't meet the 198 00:12:02,080 --> 00:12:05,400 Speaker 7: three pillars or one of the three pillars, because almost 199 00:12:05,440 --> 00:12:07,719 Speaker 7: all of them can meet one, which is deliverability. 200 00:12:07,720 --> 00:12:10,240 Speaker 6: I can't find too many that don't. Right. Why is 201 00:12:10,280 --> 00:12:10,960 Speaker 6: it so important? 202 00:12:10,960 --> 00:12:13,199 Speaker 7: Because the more you do, the more projects that go, 203 00:12:13,480 --> 00:12:16,360 Speaker 7: the ones that are successful, the ones that fail. You're 204 00:12:16,360 --> 00:12:19,880 Speaker 7: building economies of scale, economies of manufacture to bring down 205 00:12:19,920 --> 00:12:22,640 Speaker 7: your costs, and economies of novels. You get smarter about 206 00:12:22,679 --> 00:12:25,760 Speaker 7: how to do it. You got to drive that engine. 207 00:12:25,360 --> 00:12:27,320 Speaker 6: To be successful. And here's the deal. 208 00:12:27,720 --> 00:12:31,280 Speaker 7: If we made the same requirements from this industry to 209 00:12:31,320 --> 00:12:33,480 Speaker 7: have to bring its own green electrons to the party, 210 00:12:33,720 --> 00:12:36,440 Speaker 7: and we made that apply to everybody who was making 211 00:12:36,480 --> 00:12:39,320 Speaker 7: electric vehicles, I would not be driving my electric vehicle today. 212 00:12:39,760 --> 00:12:42,560 Speaker 6: Why this one. Right. And here's the other issue. We're 213 00:12:42,559 --> 00:12:43,440 Speaker 6: trying to solve too. 214 00:12:43,280 --> 00:12:48,199 Speaker 7: Many problems with one piece of rulemaking. Right, there are 215 00:12:48,400 --> 00:12:52,160 Speaker 7: two point six tero watts of renewable standing in queues. 216 00:12:52,640 --> 00:12:56,240 Speaker 7: That's twice the installed total capacity. Now we're going to 217 00:12:56,320 --> 00:12:59,880 Speaker 7: require even more pressure to push through that houses in 218 00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:02,920 Speaker 7: the industry going to start. Yes, I'm very happy that 219 00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:04,800 Speaker 7: high store is going to have a project. 220 00:13:04,480 --> 00:13:06,720 Speaker 6: I really am. But that's not going to build an industry. 221 00:13:07,320 --> 00:13:11,840 Speaker 7: You have to open and broaden that aperture, right, and 222 00:13:11,880 --> 00:13:13,280 Speaker 7: then it will close over time. 223 00:13:13,640 --> 00:13:14,920 Speaker 6: We're not advocating that. 224 00:13:14,840 --> 00:13:17,280 Speaker 7: We people don't pay attention to the three pillars because 225 00:13:17,280 --> 00:13:20,280 Speaker 7: they are critically important. Right, you said it. We have 226 00:13:20,400 --> 00:13:23,680 Speaker 7: no totally green grids, right, we have done right. The 227 00:13:23,720 --> 00:13:26,080 Speaker 7: other thing we don't have is we don't have enough 228 00:13:26,160 --> 00:13:29,480 Speaker 7: green electrons. We have to sort that in time. But 229 00:13:29,520 --> 00:13:32,439 Speaker 7: we're saying that for projects that can get into construction 230 00:13:32,559 --> 00:13:35,640 Speaker 7: by twenty twenty eight, they should be grand funds so 231 00:13:35,720 --> 00:13:36,840 Speaker 7: we get them going. 232 00:13:37,200 --> 00:13:37,480 Speaker 6: Right. 233 00:13:37,760 --> 00:13:39,960 Speaker 7: And one other issue which no one talks about outside 234 00:13:40,000 --> 00:13:42,600 Speaker 7: the Three Pillars is the creep model. So every year 235 00:13:42,640 --> 00:13:45,880 Speaker 7: you have to reevaluate the credits you're getting what they're worth. 236 00:13:45,960 --> 00:13:48,800 Speaker 6: Who can finance a project that way. So there's a 237 00:13:48,800 --> 00:13:49,840 Speaker 6: lot of work to be done. 238 00:13:49,840 --> 00:13:53,680 Speaker 7: But here's the deal. Every effort, every effort is good. 239 00:13:53,920 --> 00:13:56,679 Speaker 7: Let's widen the aperture, let's not restrict it right off 240 00:13:56,720 --> 00:13:58,800 Speaker 7: the bat. So we have a few projects because here's 241 00:13:58,800 --> 00:14:01,240 Speaker 7: what forty five in its purest form will do. 242 00:14:02,000 --> 00:14:03,600 Speaker 6: It will make the plant smaller. 243 00:14:03,960 --> 00:14:05,559 Speaker 7: All right, you can ask me why, but I'm not 244 00:14:05,559 --> 00:14:06,080 Speaker 7: going to explain. 245 00:14:06,120 --> 00:14:06,320 Speaker 6: Now. 246 00:14:06,400 --> 00:14:10,320 Speaker 7: Smaller, there will be fewer of them, and they will 247 00:14:10,400 --> 00:14:13,000 Speaker 7: cost more. Estimates right now is that projects will increase 248 00:14:13,040 --> 00:14:16,040 Speaker 7: in cost between one hundred and forty one seventy five percent. 249 00:14:15,760 --> 00:14:16,640 Speaker 6: To the end consumer. 250 00:14:17,040 --> 00:14:19,920 Speaker 7: How are you going to build demand that is ensuring 251 00:14:20,400 --> 00:14:25,120 Speaker 7: absolutely ensuring that high carbon intensity hydrogen. 252 00:14:24,720 --> 00:14:28,280 Speaker 6: Comes into this market. So let me stop there and. 253 00:14:29,200 --> 00:14:29,640 Speaker 2: I get it. 254 00:14:29,720 --> 00:14:34,960 Speaker 3: So, more expensive hydrogen, fewer projects, smaller projects. So you 255 00:14:35,080 --> 00:14:39,120 Speaker 3: said your position, You know you stand where you sit. 256 00:14:40,080 --> 00:14:43,720 Speaker 3: Why don't you or why doesn't Fortescue sit on top 257 00:14:43,760 --> 00:14:44,760 Speaker 3: of salt caverns? 258 00:14:45,080 --> 00:14:47,520 Speaker 7: Well, I'll tell you where we do so. Well, first 259 00:14:47,560 --> 00:14:49,840 Speaker 7: of all, look, I think you said it right. They're 260 00:14:49,960 --> 00:14:53,000 Speaker 7: very few and it's not all salt, it's domo salt. 261 00:14:53,120 --> 00:14:54,720 Speaker 7: And if you look at a map. There are only 262 00:14:54,760 --> 00:14:57,720 Speaker 7: so many, right, it's a scarce resource. But if you'd 263 00:14:57,720 --> 00:15:00,600 Speaker 7: ask me where Fordescue sits, it sits on planet Earth. Yeah, 264 00:15:00,640 --> 00:15:04,040 Speaker 7: we all do, right, we all do, and therefore get 265 00:15:04,200 --> 00:15:07,920 Speaker 7: to decarbonization with a molecule for people who can't use 266 00:15:07,920 --> 00:15:12,000 Speaker 7: an electron should be in all our best interests. Widening 267 00:15:12,040 --> 00:15:16,880 Speaker 7: the amperture, right, doesn't impact I store. Right, you call 268 00:15:16,920 --> 00:15:20,880 Speaker 7: it lenient, or you called it lenient, that's a judgment already. 269 00:15:21,160 --> 00:15:22,320 Speaker 6: I call it appropriate. 270 00:15:22,840 --> 00:15:25,920 Speaker 7: Right, So let's build an industry here, and let's not 271 00:15:26,080 --> 00:15:29,360 Speaker 7: try to solve every problem with one piece of rulemaking 272 00:15:29,600 --> 00:15:32,280 Speaker 7: today when we're really building an industry for the twenty 273 00:15:32,360 --> 00:15:34,160 Speaker 7: thirties and twenty forties. 274 00:15:33,920 --> 00:15:36,600 Speaker 2: Right, I call it more lenient, not linient. Andy. 275 00:15:37,960 --> 00:15:40,920 Speaker 3: One final for you before we move on to Elena 276 00:15:40,960 --> 00:15:44,640 Speaker 3: and Kathleen. So both you and Claire, this is really interesting. 277 00:15:44,640 --> 00:15:48,120 Speaker 3: Both you and Claire are members of GH two, which 278 00:15:48,160 --> 00:15:52,040 Speaker 3: is one of the strictest hydrogen standards before you have 279 00:15:52,120 --> 00:15:55,320 Speaker 3: to produce your hydrogen at one kilogram of CO two 280 00:15:55,920 --> 00:15:59,480 Speaker 3: or less per kilogram of hydrogen that you make. Your CEO, 281 00:15:59,600 --> 00:16:03,960 Speaker 3: Andrew Forest is on the board of the GH two organization. 282 00:16:04,560 --> 00:16:08,640 Speaker 3: So isn't your dislike of the hourly matching pillar at 283 00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:11,280 Speaker 3: odds with your membership of the GH two. 284 00:16:11,960 --> 00:16:14,360 Speaker 7: No, I don't think so, because it doesn't actually specify 285 00:16:14,400 --> 00:16:17,520 Speaker 7: hourly matching, monthly matching, or annually matching. What it does 286 00:16:17,560 --> 00:16:19,400 Speaker 7: requires we follow the rules and laws that are in 287 00:16:19,440 --> 00:16:20,840 Speaker 7: place that it does. 288 00:16:21,600 --> 00:16:21,800 Speaker 6: Look. 289 00:16:21,960 --> 00:16:25,000 Speaker 7: I think for FORDESCU, we have an absolute commitment that 290 00:16:25,040 --> 00:16:27,320 Speaker 7: we will never leave anything worse offt than when we come, 291 00:16:27,360 --> 00:16:30,360 Speaker 7: whether it's a water aquifer, the community in terms of 292 00:16:30,400 --> 00:16:34,400 Speaker 7: what we're doing, or that we will directly impact in 293 00:16:34,480 --> 00:16:36,200 Speaker 7: higher emissions of CO two. 294 00:16:36,360 --> 00:16:36,760 Speaker 6: We have a. 295 00:16:36,720 --> 00:16:40,120 Speaker 7: Project in Washington State, in Washington State, they manage that 296 00:16:40,920 --> 00:16:45,240 Speaker 7: in Washington State. It's hydro power in Washington State. That 297 00:16:45,320 --> 00:16:49,160 Speaker 7: project would not meet this requirement, and it's a perfectly 298 00:16:49,320 --> 00:16:50,520 Speaker 7: good project. 299 00:16:51,320 --> 00:16:52,640 Speaker 6: This is what we have to sort out. 300 00:16:52,800 --> 00:16:55,000 Speaker 7: There's nothing There are a few pieces in conflict here, 301 00:16:55,000 --> 00:16:57,240 Speaker 7: but what's non in conflict for anybody on this stage 302 00:16:57,640 --> 00:17:00,000 Speaker 7: is the urgency by which we have to produce those 303 00:17:00,280 --> 00:17:03,480 Speaker 7: very low carbon intensity molecules. 304 00:17:03,680 --> 00:17:04,840 Speaker 6: So let's get at it. 305 00:17:05,080 --> 00:17:07,119 Speaker 7: Let's make it so people can come to this game 306 00:17:07,359 --> 00:17:10,040 Speaker 7: and we can learn, we can build, we can manufacture. 307 00:17:10,040 --> 00:17:11,040 Speaker 6: And here's the other piece of it. 308 00:17:11,200 --> 00:17:14,080 Speaker 7: If we're increasing the cost of these projects, what's a 309 00:17:14,119 --> 00:17:16,200 Speaker 7: project developed going to do. You're gonna buy the cheapest 310 00:17:16,359 --> 00:17:18,200 Speaker 7: electualized as you can know where they're. 311 00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:20,440 Speaker 8: Made China, tie them. 312 00:17:20,560 --> 00:17:22,359 Speaker 7: And the whole purpose of this bill was to build 313 00:17:22,400 --> 00:17:24,680 Speaker 7: infrastructure in this country. 314 00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:26,840 Speaker 3: We have a report on electronizing in China. They're not 315 00:17:26,840 --> 00:17:28,560 Speaker 3: gonna have it as easy as it seems. 316 00:17:28,560 --> 00:17:31,160 Speaker 7: Even let me tell you, they'll have it easier when 317 00:17:31,200 --> 00:17:34,400 Speaker 7: everybody's buying them, because they have to get those costs. 318 00:17:34,040 --> 00:17:37,400 Speaker 6: Down here to manage the cost of that molecule. All right. 319 00:17:37,440 --> 00:17:40,919 Speaker 7: And here's the other thing. Fortescue is a large public 320 00:17:40,920 --> 00:17:43,639 Speaker 7: company in Australia. We're in thirty different countries and I 321 00:17:43,760 --> 00:17:45,520 Speaker 7: have to go before Andrew Farst and tell them why 322 00:17:45,520 --> 00:17:47,359 Speaker 7: I think he should put a dollar of his money 323 00:17:47,560 --> 00:17:55,040 Speaker 7: here versus Morocco, versus Egypt, versus Norway. Right, So, think 324 00:17:55,040 --> 00:17:56,880 Speaker 7: about where capital is going to go, where the capital 325 00:17:56,960 --> 00:17:58,720 Speaker 7: flows are going to go. And one other aspect of 326 00:17:58,760 --> 00:18:02,119 Speaker 7: this and the Inflation Reduction Act was the creation of 327 00:18:02,160 --> 00:18:06,879 Speaker 7: an industry having capital invested here. So these are the 328 00:18:06,880 --> 00:18:08,720 Speaker 7: things why we're concerned about and why we might have 329 00:18:08,760 --> 00:18:11,359 Speaker 7: a slightly different view on this than. 330 00:18:11,359 --> 00:18:14,680 Speaker 6: High stool good. 331 00:18:14,720 --> 00:18:17,520 Speaker 3: Good to know that your membership of the G two 332 00:18:17,560 --> 00:18:22,960 Speaker 3: standard is not at odds with your arguments for leniency 333 00:18:23,000 --> 00:18:26,160 Speaker 3: or more leniency on these rules. 334 00:18:26,520 --> 00:18:29,400 Speaker 2: Moving on to Elena, So Elena. 335 00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:35,600 Speaker 3: Many green hydrogen proponents say that the proposed guidance, the 336 00:18:35,800 --> 00:18:41,320 Speaker 3: strict guidance, benefits blue hydrogen by being too strict on 337 00:18:41,400 --> 00:18:45,159 Speaker 3: green and therefore constraining green hydrogen and making blue the 338 00:18:45,240 --> 00:18:48,560 Speaker 3: default technology to go to. And your company, top so So 339 00:18:49,680 --> 00:18:54,000 Speaker 3: licenses a blue hydrogen technology called sincore to firms like 340 00:18:54,080 --> 00:18:58,760 Speaker 3: Exxon and Fidelis. But your client, Exxon is now threatening 341 00:18:58,800 --> 00:19:02,680 Speaker 3: to ditch a blue hydrogen project that would use your 342 00:19:02,720 --> 00:19:06,400 Speaker 3: technology because the rules would make it hard for them 343 00:19:06,400 --> 00:19:10,080 Speaker 3: to qualify for the clean Hydrogen credit and they would 344 00:19:10,119 --> 00:19:12,320 Speaker 3: have to settle for a lower credit, the forty five 345 00:19:12,520 --> 00:19:14,960 Speaker 3: Q credit for carbon. 346 00:19:14,640 --> 00:19:17,119 Speaker 2: Capture and storage. So what is your view? 347 00:19:17,359 --> 00:19:21,720 Speaker 3: Does the current guidance on green hydrogen help blue hydrogen 348 00:19:21,720 --> 00:19:24,840 Speaker 3: by constraining green or does it hurt blue hydrogen because 349 00:19:24,960 --> 00:19:28,000 Speaker 3: it doesn't get those doesn't allow them to get those credits. 350 00:19:28,440 --> 00:19:32,880 Speaker 9: So thank you and really pleased to be here. Let 351 00:19:32,920 --> 00:19:36,560 Speaker 9: me start by saying that at TOPS we have the 352 00:19:36,640 --> 00:19:41,680 Speaker 9: beauty of having a number of technologies that actually speak 353 00:19:41,720 --> 00:19:45,200 Speaker 9: to all colors, and for that, we are color agnostic 354 00:19:45,320 --> 00:19:48,400 Speaker 9: when it comes to hydrogen. So in fact, we tend 355 00:19:48,440 --> 00:19:51,960 Speaker 9: to talk about low carbon hydrogen and renewable hydrogen. 356 00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:54,080 Speaker 8: And when you look at our. 357 00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:57,520 Speaker 9: Portfolio of technologies, it's true we have blue with our sinker, 358 00:19:57,640 --> 00:20:02,440 Speaker 9: which is fully commercial and fully scaled technology, but we 359 00:20:02,560 --> 00:20:07,520 Speaker 9: are making huge investments for our size of company in 360 00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:11,600 Speaker 9: green with the electoralizer, the sec electoralizer, So we are 361 00:20:11,640 --> 00:20:15,920 Speaker 9: really invested in both technologies and in many more because 362 00:20:15,960 --> 00:20:18,960 Speaker 9: we are as well in renewable fuels. So as a 363 00:20:19,040 --> 00:20:23,600 Speaker 9: matter of fact, we are quite agnostic. And as and said, 364 00:20:23,720 --> 00:20:26,879 Speaker 9: we are all for the carbonization in whatever form and 365 00:20:26,960 --> 00:20:30,200 Speaker 9: shape it takes place, as long as it takes place 366 00:20:30,520 --> 00:20:34,320 Speaker 9: fast enough that we can commit and actually get to 367 00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:39,679 Speaker 9: our twenty to fifty targets. So I think everybody that 368 00:20:39,760 --> 00:20:44,159 Speaker 9: talks about forty five V at the moment is unhappy, whether. 369 00:20:43,960 --> 00:20:45,040 Speaker 2: It's green or blue. 370 00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:50,320 Speaker 9: So in any shade of color, when we think of green, 371 00:20:50,359 --> 00:20:53,080 Speaker 9: and we think of our own investments and the customers 372 00:20:53,119 --> 00:20:56,560 Speaker 9: we talk to, there is certainly a concern about availability 373 00:20:56,800 --> 00:21:02,280 Speaker 9: of fitstocks to actually scale the technology, tests, the technology 374 00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:04,880 Speaker 9: make it making sure that it comes you know, at 375 00:21:04,920 --> 00:21:07,919 Speaker 9: the right cost, in the right amount of time. But 376 00:21:07,960 --> 00:21:11,040 Speaker 9: also when we speak to our customers in the low 377 00:21:11,119 --> 00:21:15,760 Speaker 9: carbon hydrogen and low carbon ammonia for that or blue 378 00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:19,600 Speaker 9: hydrogen and ammonia, they do have concerns that actually, as 379 00:21:19,640 --> 00:21:23,040 Speaker 9: it is shaped at the moment, the forty five V 380 00:21:23,800 --> 00:21:28,720 Speaker 9: doesn't really favor decarbonization. Why because actually it sets a 381 00:21:28,800 --> 00:21:33,320 Speaker 9: standard which is for the calculation of the carbon intensity 382 00:21:33,400 --> 00:21:37,080 Speaker 9: based on the carbon intensity of the fitstocks, which are 383 00:21:37,160 --> 00:21:41,639 Speaker 9: based on historical heverages, So actually not favoring projects and 384 00:21:41,680 --> 00:21:47,320 Speaker 9: those and those project developers that want to be more 385 00:21:47,359 --> 00:21:51,800 Speaker 9: ambitious that actually want to make investment towards decarbonizing the 386 00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:56,880 Speaker 9: whole value chain methane emissions and also being more ambitious 387 00:21:56,920 --> 00:21:59,959 Speaker 9: on the carbon capture on the process of hydrogen production, 388 00:22:00,640 --> 00:22:04,080 Speaker 9: hence actually failing a bit the whole purpose and the 389 00:22:04,080 --> 00:22:08,520 Speaker 9: philosophy of the i RA and the forty five V specifically. 390 00:22:09,119 --> 00:22:13,600 Speaker 9: So if we have advice accordingly, we would actually advise 391 00:22:13,760 --> 00:22:17,800 Speaker 9: changes both with regards to green hydrogen and to low 392 00:22:17,840 --> 00:22:21,919 Speaker 9: carbon hydrogen, and just with the purpose of doing things 393 00:22:22,600 --> 00:22:25,960 Speaker 9: quickly enough that you can scale up technology, but that 394 00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:30,840 Speaker 9: you can also enable and implement technologies that are already 395 00:22:31,040 --> 00:22:35,120 Speaker 9: fully scaled and commercial and can bring an enormous impact 396 00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:37,920 Speaker 9: in a relatively short amount of time. 397 00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:42,960 Speaker 3: Okay, So Topsail winds either way, whether it's blue or green, 398 00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:44,440 Speaker 3: or low carbon or renewable. 399 00:22:44,520 --> 00:22:45,480 Speaker 6: What a happy company? 400 00:22:46,400 --> 00:22:48,360 Speaker 9: No, I always say, I don't know if it's by 401 00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:51,480 Speaker 9: design or by luck, but we sit right in the 402 00:22:51,480 --> 00:22:54,920 Speaker 9: middle of the energy transition, and our ambition is actually 403 00:22:55,240 --> 00:22:59,560 Speaker 9: to make it happen. And it's just good that I 404 00:22:59,560 --> 00:23:04,439 Speaker 9: think we're quite neutral towards the quarter that it is 405 00:23:04,520 --> 00:23:04,880 Speaker 9: to take. 406 00:23:05,359 --> 00:23:09,680 Speaker 3: Okay, do our other panels have anything to say? And 407 00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:14,320 Speaker 3: de Claire, what do you guys think about the impact. 408 00:23:13,880 --> 00:23:17,160 Speaker 2: Of this guidance on blue? Is it good for blue? 409 00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:19,280 Speaker 2: Or is it bad for blue? 410 00:23:20,720 --> 00:23:24,440 Speaker 5: I think the common I'll make is, unfortunately, so much 411 00:23:24,440 --> 00:23:28,200 Speaker 5: attention has been brought to forty five V and almost 412 00:23:28,440 --> 00:23:34,480 Speaker 5: pitting green hydrogen companies against each other, while no attention 413 00:23:34,560 --> 00:23:37,800 Speaker 5: has been put on forty five Q with blue hydrogen. 414 00:23:37,840 --> 00:23:41,240 Speaker 5: So I think, you know, as Andy said, everyone up 415 00:23:41,240 --> 00:23:45,800 Speaker 5: here in favor of green, and it's it is about decarbonization. 416 00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:49,040 Speaker 4: So I think I'll say. 417 00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:54,240 Speaker 3: That, okay, or all in favor of decarbonization, that's good. 418 00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:58,119 Speaker 2: So if not, we were in the wrong place. 419 00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:03,520 Speaker 3: Moving on to another topic, and this is where we 420 00:24:03,560 --> 00:24:09,440 Speaker 3: bring our last panelist to Kathleen. Kathleen, your company, Constellation 421 00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:15,320 Speaker 3: has the biggest nuclear fleet in the US, twenty one reactors. 422 00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:16,880 Speaker 2: If I check correctly. 423 00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:21,840 Speaker 3: Now, the nuclear industry has struggled somewhat economically in the 424 00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:24,359 Speaker 3: recent past, at least so my colleagues in the Power 425 00:24:24,359 --> 00:24:27,040 Speaker 3: team tell me. So it's not a surprise, of course 426 00:24:27,080 --> 00:24:31,200 Speaker 3: that the nuclear industry would like to get some benefits 427 00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:34,960 Speaker 3: from from making making hydrogen. But the draft guidance right 428 00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:40,160 Speaker 3: now excludes most nuclear because of the additionality claws. So 429 00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:43,360 Speaker 3: if you're three years or older, your plants is three 430 00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:45,879 Speaker 3: years older than you know, you don't qualify it with 431 00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:48,760 Speaker 3: the current rules. So your CEO, Joe Dominguez, in an 432 00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:51,760 Speaker 3: interview with Bloomberg called the additionality rule crazy. 433 00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:56,119 Speaker 2: So how that's that's quoting quoting it. 434 00:24:58,359 --> 00:25:01,200 Speaker 3: How important is hydrogen And it seems like hygien really 435 00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:04,440 Speaker 3: is very important for the nuclear industry, But how important 436 00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:06,000 Speaker 3: is it for nuclear industry? Is it a matter of 437 00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:08,879 Speaker 3: life and death for the nuclear industry that these credits 438 00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:09,440 Speaker 3: don't work out? 439 00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:10,439 Speaker 2: Then, you know, we're folding. 440 00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:13,160 Speaker 10: So I have to start out by saying, not only 441 00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:15,200 Speaker 10: do we have an expert moderator, but we. 442 00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:18,040 Speaker 8: Have a comedian moderator. So this is the best panel 443 00:25:18,080 --> 00:25:19,359 Speaker 8: I've ever been on. This is great. 444 00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:24,640 Speaker 10: Hydrogen is important to nuclear nuclear is important to hydrogen. 445 00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:26,520 Speaker 10: I just I need to go back to the passage 446 00:25:26,560 --> 00:25:29,359 Speaker 10: of the bill. This is not like a policy conversation. 447 00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:31,560 Speaker 10: I am a recovering lawyer, so I have to focus 448 00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:35,440 Speaker 10: on the fact that the statute is explicit that nuclear 449 00:25:35,520 --> 00:25:39,160 Speaker 10: can be used to power an electrolyizer and make hydrogen 450 00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:41,719 Speaker 10: that can qualify for the credit. In fact, we are 451 00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:46,800 Speaker 10: already making clean hydrogen with nuclear energy at an electrolyizer 452 00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:49,119 Speaker 10: that we built in New York right next to one 453 00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:49,880 Speaker 10: of our plants. 454 00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:52,240 Speaker 8: The reason we built that is because we've got. 455 00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:55,639 Speaker 10: A grant from the Department of Energy to build that electrilyizer. 456 00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:58,119 Speaker 10: We've also gone to grant to power one of the 457 00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:04,240 Speaker 10: seven hydrogen hubs, the one that is encompassing the Midwest States. 458 00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:06,320 Speaker 10: Not going to happen if we can't use the nuclear 459 00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:09,800 Speaker 10: energy to make the hydrogen at that For that hub, 460 00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:12,840 Speaker 10: all that work, that's nine hundred million dollars of an investment. 461 00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:16,280 Speaker 10: That's on pause while we wait for the guidance to 462 00:26:16,280 --> 00:26:21,840 Speaker 10: come out. So we'll see what happens when we see 463 00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:24,760 Speaker 10: the final rules. But you said a moment ago, no 464 00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:27,879 Speaker 10: one's making hydrogen here. We're making hydrogen here, we're claiming 465 00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:32,080 Speaker 10: the credit. So if we have to visit with the 466 00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:35,960 Speaker 10: courts to sort out whether the final guidance is consistent 467 00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:38,159 Speaker 10: with the statute or not, we've already had center mansion 468 00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:39,520 Speaker 10: offered right an Amikus brief. 469 00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:41,600 Speaker 8: The people who wrote this bill. 470 00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:46,080 Speaker 10: Didn't write additionality into it. They knew how to specify 471 00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:48,560 Speaker 10: when something needed to be built by a certain date. 472 00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:51,240 Speaker 10: They didn't do that with respect to the electricity going 473 00:26:51,240 --> 00:26:52,360 Speaker 10: into the electrolyzer. 474 00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:54,080 Speaker 8: They just said it had to be zero carbon. 475 00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:58,560 Speaker 10: We make more zero carbon magwats than anyone in the country. 476 00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:00,280 Speaker 8: One out of every ten comes out of one or. 477 00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:03,760 Speaker 10: Machines, and so yes, we are focusing on this as 478 00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:06,440 Speaker 10: a way to ensure the long term operation of the 479 00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:10,240 Speaker 10: nation's nuclear fleet. The Inflation Reduction Act was the first 480 00:27:10,280 --> 00:27:14,080 Speaker 10: time the federal government provided a credit to existing resources. 481 00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:17,320 Speaker 10: So the fleet is receiving your credit, But unlike the 482 00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:20,439 Speaker 10: other credits in the Act, it does expire in eight years. 483 00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:25,399 Speaker 10: So if a nuclear reactor were able to sell clean electricity, 484 00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:27,879 Speaker 10: whether through the grid or directly behind the meter to 485 00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:33,560 Speaker 10: an electoralizer, those types of contracts only need to be 486 00:27:34,080 --> 00:27:36,080 Speaker 10: You could still claim the credit if you sign one 487 00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:39,320 Speaker 10: of those contracts early in the twenty thirties and it's 488 00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:41,800 Speaker 10: in place for ten years. So it's a long term 489 00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:46,639 Speaker 10: potential revenue stream to provide the reactor a reason to 490 00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:49,680 Speaker 10: stay on the grid past the expiration of the forty 491 00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:50,399 Speaker 10: five year credit. 492 00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:54,800 Speaker 3: Okay, so this is a long term mechanism for nuclear 493 00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:57,560 Speaker 3: to live. And I'm glad you mentioned the other credit 494 00:27:57,640 --> 00:28:00,399 Speaker 3: because that was going to be my next question. Nuclear 495 00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:04,919 Speaker 3: industry is getting its own forty five you credit for. 496 00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:07,520 Speaker 2: Nuclear power plants. 497 00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:11,160 Speaker 3: So do I understand it correctly that the forty five 498 00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:15,040 Speaker 3: view in your view is not giving you enough of 499 00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:20,399 Speaker 3: a long long, you know, long enough supply of money, 500 00:28:20,560 --> 00:28:23,040 Speaker 3: and then you would need for the longer term to 501 00:28:23,600 --> 00:28:24,800 Speaker 3: be producing the hydrogen. 502 00:28:25,119 --> 00:28:25,320 Speaker 6: Yeah. 503 00:28:25,359 --> 00:28:29,080 Speaker 10: To be clear, forty five view is designed to ensure 504 00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:33,080 Speaker 10: that a reactor can recover its cost of operations if 505 00:28:33,119 --> 00:28:35,840 Speaker 10: market prices are below its cost of operation. So, unlike 506 00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:38,560 Speaker 10: credits for wind and solar, the forty five U credit 507 00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:41,320 Speaker 10: actually phases down as market prices go up. It has 508 00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:43,880 Speaker 10: that built in consumer projection feature. But the point is 509 00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:47,600 Speaker 10: it expires in eight years, So unlike the renewable credits, 510 00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:50,040 Speaker 10: which will be in place till all of your children 511 00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:52,920 Speaker 10: are grown and have their own kids, this this this 512 00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:57,080 Speaker 10: credit will not be So it is a potential revenue source. 513 00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:00,840 Speaker 10: You know, all the points we've made here about demand 514 00:29:01,360 --> 00:29:04,600 Speaker 10: are accurate. We need to have a market for this commodity, 515 00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:07,240 Speaker 10: and therefore we need to get going at bringing down 516 00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:09,640 Speaker 10: the cost, as we've done with other types of technology, 517 00:29:09,760 --> 00:29:12,760 Speaker 10: so that it can be a long term source of revenue. 518 00:29:12,800 --> 00:29:15,280 Speaker 10: But you know, we're sort of stuck in the starting 519 00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:19,880 Speaker 10: blocks here, and you know, this notion of additionality just 520 00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:22,920 Speaker 10: we struggle with it just economically. I mean, if the 521 00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:27,920 Speaker 10: logic is that wind farm or solar farm wouldn't be 522 00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:33,080 Speaker 10: there but for the hydrogen credit, I just I struggle 523 00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:34,680 Speaker 10: with that because I know all of you who woke 524 00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:36,840 Speaker 10: up this morning and say, gee, I wish we had 525 00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:38,040 Speaker 10: more wind and solar on the grid. 526 00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:39,320 Speaker 8: You don't think, well. 527 00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:42,600 Speaker 10: Geez, if only we had more hydrogen, you know, subsidies. 528 00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:45,200 Speaker 10: It's we don't have an interconnection queue that works. We 529 00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:47,960 Speaker 10: need wind, and we need zoning and permitting to improve. 530 00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:50,360 Speaker 10: We need a better supply chain, We need the skilled workforce. 531 00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:53,600 Speaker 10: We have demand for new renewables. 532 00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:56,240 Speaker 8: They are not coming on the grid because of hydrogen. 533 00:29:56,320 --> 00:29:59,440 Speaker 10: So if you're using renewables to make hydrogen, you are 534 00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:02,040 Speaker 10: accountable the grid when you use new resource the same 535 00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:04,240 Speaker 10: way as the argument goes, you do so if you're 536 00:30:04,320 --> 00:30:07,600 Speaker 10: using an existing resource. So we need to build more 537 00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:10,400 Speaker 10: clean We need to get to a clean grid. We're 538 00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:13,320 Speaker 10: trying to do too much with this credit. You know, 539 00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:15,960 Speaker 10: the courts don't usually love it when agencies that aren't 540 00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:19,880 Speaker 10: you know, experts in something to try to manage it. 541 00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:23,200 Speaker 10: So I fear that's where this is going if if 542 00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:25,920 Speaker 10: we don't have some more rationality in the final rule. 543 00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:32,440 Speaker 3: Okay, so we learn about the importance of the hydrogen 544 00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:36,239 Speaker 3: credit to the nuclear industry. Now what I'm interested in 545 00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:38,840 Speaker 3: is the other way around. What's the importance of the 546 00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:44,320 Speaker 3: nuclear industry to the hydrogen industry? And clear I think 547 00:30:44,360 --> 00:30:48,480 Speaker 3: you're in particular actually said in that March testimony that 548 00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:54,240 Speaker 3: you would actually favor exceptions from additionality for nuclear power plants. 549 00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:57,280 Speaker 2: Could you explain the reasoning behind that. 550 00:30:57,680 --> 00:31:00,840 Speaker 5: Yeah, And I think you brought up the point, which is, 551 00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:05,080 Speaker 5: if it is making it so that an asset is 552 00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:09,480 Speaker 5: not going into retirement, then this is a firm based load, 553 00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:16,600 Speaker 5: zero carbon source. And whereas if you are not adding 554 00:31:16,680 --> 00:31:22,400 Speaker 5: new renewables to a grid, from our view, that is cannibalizing. 555 00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:26,280 Speaker 5: We're adding massive demand by plugging an electrolyizer into a grid, 556 00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:31,600 Speaker 5: and we are not adding more zero carbon assets to 557 00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:33,960 Speaker 5: that grid. What's going to happen, in turn, is that 558 00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:38,360 Speaker 5: it's going to fuel more fossil fuel generation to then 559 00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:39,440 Speaker 5: feed that load. 560 00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:43,080 Speaker 4: So we can't. We need to be creating. 561 00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:49,080 Speaker 5: A more a decarbonized grid, but also a more resilient grid. 562 00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:55,080 Speaker 3: And nuclear additionality exceptions help that. Sorry, and exceptions for 563 00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:58,080 Speaker 3: nuclear from from additionality help help if it. 564 00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:00,240 Speaker 5: Keeps yes, then if it keeps that asset from going 565 00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:01,000 Speaker 5: into retirement. 566 00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:04,080 Speaker 2: Okay, Kathleen say you are going to say something. 567 00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:06,600 Speaker 10: Yeah, I think that's right, and I think the Treasury 568 00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:09,160 Speaker 10: suggested as much in the proposed role. So we'll see 569 00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:12,560 Speaker 10: what that translates into into in terms of flexibility in 570 00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:15,040 Speaker 10: the final world. What we've said is, you know, if 571 00:32:15,080 --> 00:32:20,160 Speaker 10: you're causing a station to seek a second license renewal, 572 00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:23,239 Speaker 10: in other words, approval from the government to run for 573 00:32:23,280 --> 00:32:26,000 Speaker 10: another twenty years, and that is sort of in the 574 00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:29,520 Speaker 10: same time vicinity as the contract with the hydrogen customer 575 00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:32,560 Speaker 10: that should qualify. There's also a suggestion that there'd be 576 00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:36,320 Speaker 10: some you know, potential phase in or you know, if 577 00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:38,760 Speaker 10: you look at what the EIA says, not what we say, 578 00:32:38,760 --> 00:32:41,520 Speaker 10: but the EIA says about what will happen when this 579 00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:46,280 Speaker 10: forty five ye credit expires, we will see nuclear retirements. 580 00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:48,680 Speaker 10: They estimate that's twenty percent of the fleet, so you 581 00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:51,880 Speaker 10: get up a twenty percent exemption something like that. Ten percent, 582 00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:56,000 Speaker 10: those are all in the mix. But your question was 583 00:32:56,160 --> 00:32:58,680 Speaker 10: is nuclear important to hydrogen? And I think that is 584 00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:03,400 Speaker 10: true because and it's why it was explicit in the 585 00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:06,760 Speaker 10: statute that nuclear existing nuclear can make hydrogen is because 586 00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:10,440 Speaker 10: it is operating twenty four to seven and that is 587 00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:13,120 Speaker 10: the way to get the most efficiency out of your electoralizer, 588 00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:15,920 Speaker 10: to have a constant sorts of power at the power 589 00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:19,240 Speaker 10: quality that you need that runs ninety five percent of 590 00:33:19,280 --> 00:33:22,880 Speaker 10: the time. So it's you know, you don't want to 591 00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:25,080 Speaker 10: take the cheap stoption off the table right out of 592 00:33:25,120 --> 00:33:27,760 Speaker 10: the bat and that's essentially what we've done with this guidance. 593 00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:32,840 Speaker 7: So we also publicly common and put into our testament 594 00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:39,600 Speaker 7: testimony exemptions for nuclear We may never use nuclear electrons. 595 00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:42,080 Speaker 6: We may, but right now we don't. 596 00:33:42,280 --> 00:33:46,000 Speaker 7: We don't mean intention to, but we think it's important 597 00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:48,840 Speaker 7: because it goes back to my initial argument. I hope 598 00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:52,560 Speaker 7: they have electoralizers, really big ones that every nuclear plant 599 00:33:52,560 --> 00:33:55,800 Speaker 7: they have. Why, because then someone has to produce more electoralizers. 600 00:33:55,840 --> 00:33:58,200 Speaker 7: The more you produce economy as a manufacturer, the price 601 00:33:58,240 --> 00:33:58,560 Speaker 7: goes down. 602 00:33:58,600 --> 00:34:01,400 Speaker 6: They tect. Somebody invests in advanced membrane technology. 603 00:34:01,800 --> 00:34:05,440 Speaker 7: Everything that pulls and creates demand for all the bits 604 00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:07,920 Speaker 7: and pieces that make it is good for the entire industry. 605 00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:11,040 Speaker 6: Right, and I finished. I have one more point. 606 00:34:11,080 --> 00:34:13,680 Speaker 7: I don't buy into blue why because I don't think 607 00:34:13,680 --> 00:34:16,359 Speaker 7: the future to a decarbonized world is the pathway has 608 00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:19,560 Speaker 7: methane underneath it. But at this point I'm not arguing 609 00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:23,319 Speaker 7: incident because again I want everybody to be successful. At 610 00:34:23,360 --> 00:34:25,440 Speaker 7: the end of the day, the market's going to decide 611 00:34:26,080 --> 00:34:29,200 Speaker 7: what they want to buy. Right, And that's another piece 612 00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:33,719 Speaker 7: to the incrementality thing. The idea that we should have 613 00:34:33,880 --> 00:34:39,640 Speaker 7: tax policy allocating a scarce resource to me, is nuts, right, 614 00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:41,360 Speaker 7: because I go back to my argument, why is this 615 00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:44,760 Speaker 7: the only industry that has to bring their own Everybody 616 00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:46,719 Speaker 7: who wants to buy it should be as to do 617 00:34:46,760 --> 00:34:48,400 Speaker 7: the same thing. And then what you do You have 618 00:34:48,440 --> 00:34:50,680 Speaker 7: a market because we'll compete. My view is, if I 619 00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:52,600 Speaker 7: can buy a green electron and I can pay the 620 00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:54,880 Speaker 7: price for it, that must be the highest value for it, 621 00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:58,800 Speaker 7: and otherwise somebody would ask to pay more. Let markets decide. 622 00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:02,080 Speaker 7: But the bottom line here, we're getting overly focused on 623 00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:05,640 Speaker 7: these little bits and pieces of policy of tax policy 624 00:35:05,640 --> 00:35:06,760 Speaker 7: and rulemaking. 625 00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:08,040 Speaker 6: When we're trying to build an industry. 626 00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:12,320 Speaker 7: Remember the administration's goal one dollar kilogram by twenty thirty. 627 00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:16,560 Speaker 7: There is nothing in this rule making proposed rule making 628 00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:17,799 Speaker 7: that will get us there. 629 00:35:18,719 --> 00:35:23,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, So that actually leads us to the final part 630 00:35:23,120 --> 00:35:25,640 Speaker 3: of this discussion. I think it's fitting that we have 631 00:35:26,040 --> 00:35:28,680 Speaker 3: only nine out of forty minutes left and we're talking 632 00:35:28,680 --> 00:35:31,480 Speaker 3: about the most important topic because that's how it seems 633 00:35:31,520 --> 00:35:34,520 Speaker 3: to work throughout the whole discussion around hydrogen, which is 634 00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:38,080 Speaker 3: demand for hydrogen. So my team believes that BNF that 635 00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:43,200 Speaker 3: the world and the US needs demand side incentives. So 636 00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:45,560 Speaker 3: for somebody to actually want to buy the hydrogen that 637 00:35:46,200 --> 00:35:49,000 Speaker 3: you guys produce. But the tax credits, which we just 638 00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:52,080 Speaker 3: spent thirty minutes talking about, they are worth one hundred 639 00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:55,000 Speaker 3: billion dollars and they're all for the producers. And the 640 00:35:55,080 --> 00:35:59,200 Speaker 3: US does have a demand side incentive being developed right now, 641 00:35:59,239 --> 00:36:01,800 Speaker 3: but that's a one billion dollar incentive, So we're talking 642 00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:05,520 Speaker 3: one to one hundred ratio possibly for the demand side, 643 00:36:05,960 --> 00:36:09,000 Speaker 3: which is very different from Europe La right. Europe has 644 00:36:09,040 --> 00:36:11,360 Speaker 3: the subsidies, it has the carbon prices, it has the 645 00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:14,759 Speaker 3: quotas and the mandates, so lots of demand side incentives 646 00:36:14,920 --> 00:36:17,000 Speaker 3: going on over there. So, as someone who just came 647 00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:19,440 Speaker 3: to US from Europe, should the US be doing more 648 00:36:19,640 --> 00:36:22,839 Speaker 3: on supporting the demand side or incentivizing the demand side 649 00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:25,400 Speaker 3: in order to get the industry going, creating an industry 650 00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:27,439 Speaker 3: like Andy's saying, So. 651 00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:31,000 Speaker 9: First of all, coming from the European perspective, everybody in 652 00:36:31,040 --> 00:36:33,759 Speaker 9: Europe has been talking about the IRA as a game 653 00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:37,200 Speaker 9: changer and as actually you know, an initiative that has 654 00:36:37,280 --> 00:36:40,680 Speaker 9: drawn a lot of you know, investments towards the US, 655 00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:43,800 Speaker 9: and I think it's a great initiative and it's really 656 00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:47,160 Speaker 9: trying to move the needle now I come from Europe 657 00:36:47,200 --> 00:36:50,920 Speaker 9: and based in Copenhagen, and Europe is I think the 658 00:36:50,960 --> 00:36:52,440 Speaker 9: best in class for mandates. 659 00:36:53,239 --> 00:36:55,640 Speaker 8: So for the famous stick, we are very good at that. 660 00:36:56,280 --> 00:37:00,520 Speaker 9: Now and we also have subsidies. But you know, it's 661 00:37:00,680 --> 00:37:03,520 Speaker 9: much more complex to get subsidies in Europe than to 662 00:37:03,560 --> 00:37:06,759 Speaker 9: get text credit through the IRA. And we do as 663 00:37:06,760 --> 00:37:09,200 Speaker 9: well have some experience because we are looking at a 664 00:37:09,320 --> 00:37:13,480 Speaker 9: US site for our electoralizer production as we speak, and 665 00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:16,920 Speaker 9: we realize that, you know, the tremendous difference in complexity 666 00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:20,440 Speaker 9: in going through this discussion. But back to you to 667 00:37:20,560 --> 00:37:23,920 Speaker 9: your question. I mean when we talk to our customers 668 00:37:23,920 --> 00:37:25,960 Speaker 9: in the in the US and we have a very 669 00:37:25,960 --> 00:37:30,080 Speaker 9: broad pipeline of projects here in the region driven by 670 00:37:30,080 --> 00:37:33,440 Speaker 9: the IRA, and they really blossomed as soon as the 671 00:37:33,480 --> 00:37:35,239 Speaker 9: IRA was was published. 672 00:37:36,160 --> 00:37:37,040 Speaker 8: It's two things. 673 00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:42,640 Speaker 9: It's certainty for the incentives, clarity and long term sustainability 674 00:37:42,680 --> 00:37:46,360 Speaker 9: of the incentives. And the other side, because it's text 675 00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:48,640 Speaker 9: credit and it's when you produce, is that you have 676 00:37:48,719 --> 00:37:51,600 Speaker 9: a demand and the demand at the moment is not 677 00:37:51,719 --> 00:37:54,880 Speaker 9: clear at all, and actually there's no driver in the 678 00:37:54,960 --> 00:37:58,920 Speaker 9: US in North America that would you know, really incentivize them. 679 00:37:58,920 --> 00:38:01,520 Speaker 9: And then as you say, the one billion from the 680 00:38:01,840 --> 00:38:03,239 Speaker 9: taken from the hydrogen hub. 681 00:38:03,320 --> 00:38:05,680 Speaker 8: It's a good idea, but it's a very timey thing. 682 00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:10,120 Speaker 9: So actually US and the future US producers would be 683 00:38:10,160 --> 00:38:15,439 Speaker 9: looking at Europe or at Northeast Asia, Japan and Korea 684 00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:19,759 Speaker 9: to actually export. And I think, you know, if we 685 00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:22,759 Speaker 9: want to make this successful. It's great that Europe is 686 00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:25,719 Speaker 9: doing this, and you know it will drive demand, it 687 00:38:25,760 --> 00:38:26,800 Speaker 9: will impose. 688 00:38:26,440 --> 00:38:28,040 Speaker 8: A competitive issue on. 689 00:38:28,000 --> 00:38:33,239 Speaker 9: The European producers, but US should also think about how 690 00:38:33,280 --> 00:38:36,600 Speaker 9: to really deploy demand to make this a success. 691 00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:38,520 Speaker 2: Thank you to our panelists. 692 00:38:38,560 --> 00:38:40,560 Speaker 3: I think it's clear that the forty five V credit 693 00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:43,920 Speaker 3: is a very very hot debate. I think no matter 694 00:38:44,280 --> 00:38:47,319 Speaker 3: how it's going to pan out, the US is going 695 00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:50,960 Speaker 3: to become a leader on low carbon hydrogen. And it's 696 00:38:51,040 --> 00:38:53,440 Speaker 3: clear that our panelist companies are going to be at 697 00:38:53,440 --> 00:38:54,719 Speaker 3: the forefront of it all. 698 00:38:54,800 --> 00:38:55,680 Speaker 2: So thank you very much. 699 00:38:55,719 --> 00:39:06,239 Speaker 11: Thank you to our panelists and Native the Day everyone. 700 00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:10,560 Speaker 1: Today's episode of Switched On was produced by Cam Gray 701 00:39:10,760 --> 00:39:14,440 Speaker 1: with production assistance from Kamala Shelling. Bloomberg NIF is a 702 00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:17,600 Speaker 1: service provided by Bloomberg Finance LP and its affiliates. This 703 00:39:17,719 --> 00:39:20,400 Speaker 1: recording does not constitute nor should it be construed as 704 00:39:20,440 --> 00:39:24,319 Speaker 1: investment advice, investment recommendations, or a recommendation as to an 705 00:39:24,360 --> 00:39:27,560 Speaker 1: investment or other strategy. Bloomberg ANIF should not be considered 706 00:39:27,600 --> 00:39:30,920 Speaker 1: as information sufficient upon which to base an investment decision. 707 00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:34,000 Speaker 1: Neither Bloomberg Finance LP nor any of its affiliates makes 708 00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:37,759 Speaker 1: any representation or warranty as to the accuracy or completeness 709 00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:40,759 Speaker 1: of the information contained in this recording, and any liability 710 00:39:40,800 --> 00:39:43,480 Speaker 1: as a result of this recording is expressly disclaimed.