1 00:00:05,160 --> 00:00:07,600 Speaker 1: Hey, this is Anny and Samantha and welcome re stphone 2 00:00:07,640 --> 00:00:19,320 Speaker 1: never told me your protection of iHeartRadio. We are back 3 00:00:19,440 --> 00:00:22,800 Speaker 1: with a part two of this look into Christianity and 4 00:00:22,840 --> 00:00:25,799 Speaker 1: the marginalized community, and you're all just stretching out it is. 5 00:00:26,320 --> 00:00:31,280 Speaker 1: It is stretching out as for sure. Yeah. In the 6 00:00:31,360 --> 00:00:35,920 Speaker 1: last episode, if you did listen and want to recap, 7 00:00:36,240 --> 00:00:39,880 Speaker 1: we did a quick overview on women and marginalized communities, 8 00:00:40,479 --> 00:00:44,280 Speaker 1: talking about statistics, breaking down of women and religion and 9 00:00:44,320 --> 00:00:46,800 Speaker 1: even deconstruction. We talked about the history about it of 10 00:00:46,840 --> 00:00:50,400 Speaker 1: it a little bit. And for those who didn't listen, 11 00:00:51,000 --> 00:00:53,199 Speaker 1: you don't really have to because even though it's a 12 00:00:53,280 --> 00:00:55,520 Speaker 1: part two, it kind of does seem to all separate. 13 00:00:55,560 --> 00:00:57,400 Speaker 1: But maybe you should go back and listen just to 14 00:00:57,480 --> 00:01:01,160 Speaker 1: kind of get it, you know. A quick basis right 15 00:01:01,560 --> 00:01:05,120 Speaker 1: the ground worked for it and also shout out to 16 00:01:05,800 --> 00:01:08,320 Speaker 1: listener and friend of the show, ray I Hope I 17 00:01:08,400 --> 00:01:12,960 Speaker 1: said that right, who actually sent us a message reminding 18 00:01:13,000 --> 00:01:15,399 Speaker 1: me that AX was not written by Paul. It was 19 00:01:15,400 --> 00:01:20,000 Speaker 1: written by Luke, who also wrote the Gospel of Luke. 20 00:01:21,000 --> 00:01:23,039 Speaker 1: So just an FYI did get that wrong, but it 21 00:01:23,080 --> 00:01:26,360 Speaker 1: does have the beginning story of which is what got 22 00:01:26,360 --> 00:01:28,759 Speaker 1: into my brain. But you know, we'd like to clarify. 23 00:01:29,040 --> 00:01:33,399 Speaker 1: Corrections are always good, please let us know. And you 24 00:01:33,440 --> 00:01:36,240 Speaker 1: know what, today we're kind of having a throwback because 25 00:01:36,360 --> 00:01:41,200 Speaker 1: when I started this podcast with you as just a guest, 26 00:01:41,560 --> 00:01:44,800 Speaker 1: we did a whole trauma mini series. It was a lot, 27 00:01:45,160 --> 00:01:47,160 Speaker 1: and so we're kind of throwing it back with this 28 00:01:47,400 --> 00:01:53,560 Speaker 1: religious trauma. However, if it's a very long conversation, and 29 00:01:53,680 --> 00:01:56,320 Speaker 1: though we will define what it is and kind of 30 00:01:56,560 --> 00:01:59,560 Speaker 1: give you a rundown of what that looks like, symptoms 31 00:01:59,600 --> 00:02:02,840 Speaker 1: all of that at we don't talk about the effects 32 00:02:02,880 --> 00:02:05,720 Speaker 1: of it yet because we have so much to cover. 33 00:02:06,160 --> 00:02:09,119 Speaker 1: So there's gonna be a part three and probably apart four, 34 00:02:09,200 --> 00:02:15,400 Speaker 1: maybe apart five, who knows. There's a lot. And with 35 00:02:15,600 --> 00:02:18,080 Speaker 1: this we do want to put a content warning. Of course, 36 00:02:18,080 --> 00:02:22,079 Speaker 1: we're going to talk about religious trauma in general. We 37 00:02:22,160 --> 00:02:24,680 Speaker 1: do talk about roles of women. We're not getting into 38 00:02:24,680 --> 00:02:26,919 Speaker 1: the nitty gritty, but eventually we will be talking about 39 00:02:27,320 --> 00:02:32,160 Speaker 1: domestic violence, sexual violence, hate language towards the queer community 40 00:02:32,400 --> 00:02:34,640 Speaker 1: and all of that. So just be where we're going 41 00:02:34,680 --> 00:02:37,840 Speaker 1: to put that at the top. And again another we're 42 00:02:37,880 --> 00:02:44,120 Speaker 1: not trying to denegrate Christianity. Please understand what we're looking 43 00:02:44,160 --> 00:02:47,120 Speaker 1: at is the dark side when it does affect women 44 00:02:47,200 --> 00:02:51,520 Speaker 1: and why women are leaving and marginalized community are leaving 45 00:02:51,800 --> 00:02:55,000 Speaker 1: Christianity behind and it is growing, as we said at 46 00:02:55,040 --> 00:02:57,680 Speaker 1: the first episode, the amount of people who are leaving. 47 00:02:58,080 --> 00:03:03,960 Speaker 1: So there you go. Content warning. Yes, I actually just 48 00:03:04,200 --> 00:03:06,520 Speaker 1: saw because as we record this, it was a big 49 00:03:06,560 --> 00:03:10,040 Speaker 1: like fast over just happened, desearch, just happens. I just 50 00:03:10,080 --> 00:03:13,920 Speaker 1: saw a big article on CNN about what is going 51 00:03:14,040 --> 00:03:19,560 Speaker 1: on with the church. Everyone's leaving up right? Well, here 52 00:03:19,600 --> 00:03:23,600 Speaker 1: we are to give you sens why and yes we 53 00:03:23,639 --> 00:03:29,440 Speaker 1: are focusing mainly on Western Christianity. Just a note also, 54 00:03:30,280 --> 00:03:33,480 Speaker 1: I've never heard this term, so let's get into it. 55 00:03:33,520 --> 00:03:37,680 Speaker 1: What are we talking about when we say religious trauma syndrome. 56 00:03:38,560 --> 00:03:42,840 Speaker 1: This term was first coined by psychologist Marlene Winnell. I 57 00:03:42,880 --> 00:03:46,520 Speaker 1: hope I'm not butchering that in twenty eleven, but the 58 00:03:46,560 --> 00:03:48,800 Speaker 1: basis of it has been around much earlier than that, 59 00:03:48,880 --> 00:03:53,800 Speaker 1: much longer than that. And as we know, sometimes when 60 00:03:53,800 --> 00:03:56,040 Speaker 1: we have a name or a label for something, it 61 00:03:56,120 --> 00:03:58,840 Speaker 1: can help not only understand the type of trauma that 62 00:03:58,920 --> 00:04:01,800 Speaker 1: someone might be going through, but how to work through 63 00:04:01,840 --> 00:04:07,440 Speaker 1: those types of trauma, and doctor Unelle defines it as quote. 64 00:04:07,520 --> 00:04:10,800 Speaker 1: Religious trauma syndrome is the condition experienced by people who 65 00:04:10,840 --> 00:04:15,160 Speaker 1: are struggling with leaving an authoritarian, dogmatic religion and coping 66 00:04:15,160 --> 00:04:18,279 Speaker 1: with the damage of indoctrination. They may be going through 67 00:04:18,320 --> 00:04:22,080 Speaker 1: the shattering of a personally meaningful faith and or breaking 68 00:04:22,120 --> 00:04:26,479 Speaker 1: away from a controlling community and a lifestyle. RTS is 69 00:04:26,520 --> 00:04:30,080 Speaker 1: a function of both the chronic abuses of harmful religion 70 00:04:30,480 --> 00:04:33,760 Speaker 1: and the impact of severing one's connection with one's faith. 71 00:04:34,160 --> 00:04:36,919 Speaker 1: It can be compared to a combination of PTSD and 72 00:04:37,240 --> 00:04:41,200 Speaker 1: complex PTSD or c PTSD, right, and we've talked about 73 00:04:41,240 --> 00:04:43,680 Speaker 1: that before and again we do want to emphasize this 74 00:04:43,760 --> 00:04:48,560 Speaker 1: is harmful religion. That is the keynote here. So what 75 00:04:48,640 --> 00:04:52,200 Speaker 1: does that look like. It's similar to other types of trauma. 76 00:04:52,680 --> 00:04:55,560 Speaker 1: So here are some cognitive symptoms such as issues with 77 00:04:55,600 --> 00:04:59,839 Speaker 1: self esteem and self worth, perfectionism, poor critical thinking, confusion, 78 00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:05,960 Speaker 1: some emotional symptoms, depression, grief, loneliness, loss of meaning, social symptoms, 79 00:05:06,120 --> 00:05:09,760 Speaker 1: loss of network, family rupture, social awkwardness. And y'all, this 80 00:05:09,880 --> 00:05:11,600 Speaker 1: is describing me to a t and how that I'm 81 00:05:11,680 --> 00:05:17,640 Speaker 1: having a moment. Cultural symptoms difficulty belonging, information gap and 82 00:05:17,839 --> 00:05:20,640 Speaker 1: unfamiliarity with the secular world. And I really thought that 83 00:05:20,680 --> 00:05:22,800 Speaker 1: was important to put in there because if you are 84 00:05:22,880 --> 00:05:27,159 Speaker 1: from a religious background, you know exactly what that means. 85 00:05:27,520 --> 00:05:32,839 Speaker 1: I any I did not watch secular movies, and I 86 00:05:32,880 --> 00:05:36,200 Speaker 1: say secular meaning they weren't religious. When I say I 87 00:05:36,279 --> 00:05:39,279 Speaker 1: did not watch any TV for a full couple of years, 88 00:05:39,279 --> 00:05:41,159 Speaker 1: I had no idea what's going on in the world. 89 00:05:41,160 --> 00:05:43,640 Speaker 1: And I was like, what's that was this? I had 90 00:05:43,640 --> 00:05:46,680 Speaker 1: a good friend of mine in college there did it 91 00:05:46,760 --> 00:05:49,760 Speaker 1: throughout not only not only college, but high school, and 92 00:05:49,800 --> 00:05:52,640 Speaker 1: so whenever we'd had any references like music, she had 93 00:05:52,680 --> 00:05:55,920 Speaker 1: no clue what's going on this? It was such a disruption. 94 00:05:56,160 --> 00:05:57,720 Speaker 1: And for me coming out of that, I was like, 95 00:05:57,720 --> 00:06:00,159 Speaker 1: oh man, I missed a lot. I don't know. I 96 00:06:00,160 --> 00:06:04,400 Speaker 1: am not cool with the kids anymore. And I was 97 00:06:04,400 --> 00:06:15,680 Speaker 1: a kid implying that you once weren't. No. I okay. 98 00:06:16,200 --> 00:06:20,400 Speaker 1: So let's look at some of the causes of rts. 99 00:06:20,440 --> 00:06:25,800 Speaker 1: According to the article written by doctor Winnell, quote authoritarianism 100 00:06:25,839 --> 00:06:30,000 Speaker 1: coupled with toxic theology, which is received and reinforced at church, school, 101 00:06:30,080 --> 00:06:36,599 Speaker 1: and home, results in the following suppression of normal child development, cognitive, social, emotional, 102 00:06:36,640 --> 00:06:41,520 Speaker 1: moral stages are arrested, damage to normal thinking and feeling abilities. 103 00:06:42,120 --> 00:06:46,880 Speaker 1: Information is limited and controlled, dysfunctional beliefs taught, independent thinking, 104 00:06:46,920 --> 00:06:51,960 Speaker 1: condemned feelings condemned external oacus of control. Knowledge is revealed, 105 00:06:52,160 --> 00:06:56,719 Speaker 1: not discovered. Hierarchy of authority enforced self not a reliable 106 00:06:56,880 --> 00:07:01,120 Speaker 1: or a good source. Physical and sexual abuse, patriarchal power, 107 00:07:01,320 --> 00:07:05,120 Speaker 1: unhealthy sexual views, punishment used as for discipline. And you know, 108 00:07:05,160 --> 00:07:08,120 Speaker 1: I found that interesting when we have this category about 109 00:07:08,160 --> 00:07:12,360 Speaker 1: sexual abuse and under it talks about unhealthy sexual views, 110 00:07:12,880 --> 00:07:16,440 Speaker 1: and we talked about it in our Purity episode and 111 00:07:16,480 --> 00:07:18,200 Speaker 1: we're gonna go review it. We're gonna go back come 112 00:07:18,240 --> 00:07:20,600 Speaker 1: back to it in the next episode because I think 113 00:07:20,640 --> 00:07:24,600 Speaker 1: it's still important that we address it, but that it 114 00:07:24,640 --> 00:07:28,160 Speaker 1: could be it's harmful in a formative emotional abuse at 115 00:07:28,160 --> 00:07:31,640 Speaker 1: the very least, because there's so much fear in undated 116 00:07:31,680 --> 00:07:33,760 Speaker 1: with it that it causes a lot of problems, a 117 00:07:33,760 --> 00:07:37,440 Speaker 1: lot of psychological problems. I know, specifically women who had 118 00:07:37,480 --> 00:07:41,440 Speaker 1: a lot of sexual dysfunction because of their association to 119 00:07:41,920 --> 00:07:44,920 Speaker 1: how dirty sex could be or are their unhealthy views 120 00:07:44,960 --> 00:07:47,240 Speaker 1: of sex. So I really think that's important that we 121 00:07:47,240 --> 00:07:49,760 Speaker 1: talk about that when we come back later. But again, 122 00:07:49,800 --> 00:07:52,400 Speaker 1: I just wanted to note that. And speaking of abuse, 123 00:07:52,640 --> 00:07:55,920 Speaker 1: let's go ahead and define religious and spiritual abuse before 124 00:07:55,960 --> 00:07:58,560 Speaker 1: we go any further. According to one wellness site, it 125 00:07:58,640 --> 00:08:03,000 Speaker 1: is quote when someone uses religious teachings, beliefs, or practices 126 00:08:03,280 --> 00:08:06,120 Speaker 1: for their own purpose and designed to gain or maintain 127 00:08:06,240 --> 00:08:10,120 Speaker 1: power and control over others. I think that's so important 128 00:08:10,120 --> 00:08:13,640 Speaker 1: that we remember what this looks like about that power. 129 00:08:13,680 --> 00:08:15,720 Speaker 1: When we talk about abuse, we always talk about there's 130 00:08:15,720 --> 00:08:18,280 Speaker 1: a level of power there, and there is that with 131 00:08:18,440 --> 00:08:22,640 Speaker 1: a religious and spiritual aspect. And while we're at it, 132 00:08:22,720 --> 00:08:25,440 Speaker 1: because I don't think we did this last time, let's 133 00:08:25,440 --> 00:08:28,720 Speaker 1: define religion and spirituality. Yeah, like I said, we forgot 134 00:08:28,720 --> 00:08:33,280 Speaker 1: the first time around. So, according to Mariam Webster, religion 135 00:08:33,360 --> 00:08:37,240 Speaker 1: is defined as quote a personal set of institutionalized system 136 00:08:37,320 --> 00:08:42,040 Speaker 1: of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices. Also the service and 137 00:08:42,200 --> 00:08:46,760 Speaker 1: worship of God or the supernatural, or commitment or devotion 138 00:08:46,800 --> 00:08:51,160 Speaker 1: to religious faith or observance. And then spirituality is defined 139 00:08:51,240 --> 00:08:55,000 Speaker 1: as quote something that in ecclesiastical law belongs to the 140 00:08:55,080 --> 00:08:59,160 Speaker 1: church or to a cleric as such, clergy sensitivity or 141 00:08:59,200 --> 00:09:04,400 Speaker 1: attachment to religious values. Okay, now I got that back 142 00:09:04,559 --> 00:09:06,120 Speaker 1: out of the way, So let's go back to the 143 00:09:06,200 --> 00:09:11,520 Speaker 1: trauma part, right, okay, And religious and spiritual trauma can 144 00:09:11,600 --> 00:09:15,600 Speaker 1: manifest in different ways, for example, using religious beliefs to 145 00:09:15,760 --> 00:09:19,920 Speaker 1: control aspects of your personal life including behavior, what you wear, 146 00:09:20,320 --> 00:09:23,360 Speaker 1: your dates, and who you do or don't have sex with, 147 00:09:23,960 --> 00:09:28,760 Speaker 1: what job you have, how you parents, your finances, facing 148 00:09:28,760 --> 00:09:33,920 Speaker 1: criticism or punishment for questioning beliefs, practices, facing criticism or punishment, 149 00:09:34,360 --> 00:09:39,160 Speaker 1: or reporting mistreatment or incidents of abuse, minimizing or ridiculing 150 00:09:39,200 --> 00:09:44,679 Speaker 1: mental health symptoms as quote sinfold, demonic, or weak faith. Right, 151 00:09:44,880 --> 00:09:47,440 Speaker 1: And again we're going to come back to this because 152 00:09:47,480 --> 00:09:51,800 Speaker 1: I think especially when we talk about mental health for 153 00:09:51,840 --> 00:09:54,880 Speaker 1: the longest time, and I was told this myself when 154 00:09:54,880 --> 00:09:59,000 Speaker 1: I was going through my suicidal adeation and my really 155 00:09:59,080 --> 00:10:02,760 Speaker 1: dark times, that I wasn't praying enough and there was 156 00:10:02,800 --> 00:10:06,360 Speaker 1: a level of shame that was placed onto me that 157 00:10:06,520 --> 00:10:11,000 Speaker 1: I would talk to other people about that darkness instead 158 00:10:11,040 --> 00:10:13,640 Speaker 1: of talking to God or just keeping it to myself. 159 00:10:13,960 --> 00:10:15,960 Speaker 1: So again we're going to come back to that. And 160 00:10:16,000 --> 00:10:18,199 Speaker 1: then yeah, we've definitely seen that whole conversation of their 161 00:10:18,240 --> 00:10:24,679 Speaker 1: possessed or the devils in them yeah, yeah, And as 162 00:10:24,720 --> 00:10:27,640 Speaker 1: doctor Winnell wrote about the psychical abuse quote, the doctrines 163 00:10:27,640 --> 00:10:31,520 Speaker 1: of original sin and internal damnation caused the most psychological 164 00:10:31,559 --> 00:10:35,400 Speaker 1: distress by creating the ultimate double blind. You're guilty and 165 00:10:35,600 --> 00:10:39,760 Speaker 1: responsible and faced internal punishment, yet you have no ability 166 00:10:39,800 --> 00:10:44,880 Speaker 1: to do anything about it. These are teachings of fundamentalist Christianity. However, 167 00:10:45,080 --> 00:10:49,599 Speaker 1: other authoritarian religions have equally toxic doctrines. You must conform 168 00:10:49,800 --> 00:10:53,680 Speaker 1: to a mental test of believing in an external, unseen 169 00:10:53,760 --> 00:10:59,040 Speaker 1: source for salvation and maintain the state of belief until death. 170 00:10:59,320 --> 00:11:03,080 Speaker 1: You cannot ever stop sinning altogether, so you must continue 171 00:11:03,120 --> 00:11:06,240 Speaker 1: to confess and be forgiven, hoping that you have met 172 00:11:06,280 --> 00:11:09,440 Speaker 1: the criteria, despite complete lack of feedback about whether you 173 00:11:09,480 --> 00:11:12,760 Speaker 1: will actually make it to Heaven. Salvation is not a 174 00:11:12,800 --> 00:11:16,560 Speaker 1: free gift after all. For the sincere believer, this results 175 00:11:16,559 --> 00:11:21,520 Speaker 1: in an unending cycle of shame and relief. Yes, I 176 00:11:21,880 --> 00:11:25,319 Speaker 1: think that is the constant. And I again, just like 177 00:11:25,360 --> 00:11:27,880 Speaker 1: she said, it's not just Christianity that we see this sin. 178 00:11:27,960 --> 00:11:32,040 Speaker 1: It is definitely across the lines of different types of 179 00:11:32,040 --> 00:11:36,560 Speaker 1: faith and different beliefs. Again, we are talking specifically about 180 00:11:37,040 --> 00:11:39,960 Speaker 1: Christianity in our episode, but what she's talking about with 181 00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:43,520 Speaker 1: the religious trauma syndrome, that could be any religion. And 182 00:11:43,720 --> 00:11:46,719 Speaker 1: from that Wildest article we mentioned earlier, here are some 183 00:11:46,800 --> 00:11:49,800 Speaker 1: examples of religious trauma and we're going to quote them 184 00:11:49,840 --> 00:11:52,040 Speaker 1: all because I think it's important, because I think it's 185 00:11:52,080 --> 00:11:53,240 Speaker 1: going to hit with a lot of people. That hit 186 00:11:53,280 --> 00:11:56,360 Speaker 1: me a lot. You are confused about what you're being 187 00:11:56,360 --> 00:12:00,200 Speaker 1: taught and are scared or uncomfortable with voicing questions or 188 00:12:00,240 --> 00:12:04,320 Speaker 1: your beliefs. You attack, dismiss, or shame yourself if you 189 00:12:04,400 --> 00:12:07,640 Speaker 1: have a differing belief or question your beliefs. You are 190 00:12:07,800 --> 00:12:11,920 Speaker 1: terrified of death, evil, the rapture, the devil, and hell. 191 00:12:12,320 --> 00:12:15,400 Speaker 1: You may have nightmares or reoccurring fears of when the 192 00:12:15,400 --> 00:12:18,439 Speaker 1: world will end and what will happen after. You may 193 00:12:18,480 --> 00:12:22,280 Speaker 1: dissociate or feel separated from your body and emotions due 194 00:12:22,280 --> 00:12:25,600 Speaker 1: to fear of connecting with emotions and constant focusing outward 195 00:12:25,880 --> 00:12:30,200 Speaker 1: to others and God. You constantly criticize and judge yourself 196 00:12:30,320 --> 00:12:33,520 Speaker 1: and others due to fear of sin and fear of 197 00:12:33,600 --> 00:12:37,640 Speaker 1: upsetting God. You are afraid of being led astray in 198 00:12:37,720 --> 00:12:40,839 Speaker 1: quotes by the devil or evil, and so you become 199 00:12:40,880 --> 00:12:44,880 Speaker 1: afraid or critical of the quote outside world secular world. 200 00:12:45,160 --> 00:12:48,800 Speaker 1: You feel unable to or uncomfortable with, saying no to others. 201 00:12:49,120 --> 00:12:52,520 Speaker 1: And also women, you might be afraid that your body 202 00:12:52,679 --> 00:12:55,120 Speaker 1: is bad and others should not look at you think 203 00:12:55,120 --> 00:12:58,120 Speaker 1: you're beautiful into that it is your responsibility to make 204 00:12:58,160 --> 00:13:01,560 Speaker 1: sure that doesn't happen. Men, and you might be afraid 205 00:13:01,760 --> 00:13:04,000 Speaker 1: to get too close to a woman because then you 206 00:13:04,080 --> 00:13:07,520 Speaker 1: will fall into sin by a lusting after her, and 207 00:13:07,520 --> 00:13:10,040 Speaker 1: then you will have to marry her. You struggle to 208 00:13:10,040 --> 00:13:13,000 Speaker 1: trust your thoughts, feelings, and intuition because you have been 209 00:13:13,040 --> 00:13:17,920 Speaker 1: taught the body is wrong or bad. You attack, dismiss, 210 00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:21,480 Speaker 1: or alienate others who do not believe the same way 211 00:13:21,600 --> 00:13:25,280 Speaker 1: you do. Right and again, like we've left that all 212 00:13:25,320 --> 00:13:28,880 Speaker 1: in there, and I'm sure there's other things that we 213 00:13:28,880 --> 00:13:31,360 Speaker 1: could add on to that would explain it even deeper 214 00:13:31,480 --> 00:13:34,120 Speaker 1: or go into the feelings or the fear. The fear 215 00:13:34,240 --> 00:13:37,560 Speaker 1: is the biggest part to a lot of this, obviously, 216 00:13:37,840 --> 00:13:39,680 Speaker 1: and these are some of the most dangerous things that 217 00:13:39,679 --> 00:13:43,120 Speaker 1: can happen which could cause bodily harm to others and 218 00:13:43,360 --> 00:13:46,959 Speaker 1: or some way of overpowering others because of the spear. 219 00:13:47,360 --> 00:13:49,880 Speaker 1: When we talked about other shootings, that happened in Atlanta, 220 00:13:50,080 --> 00:13:53,720 Speaker 1: the Atlanta Spas shootings. That's exactly what happened. He was 221 00:13:53,880 --> 00:13:57,400 Speaker 1: in so much fear of sinning that this was what 222 00:13:57,480 --> 00:14:00,559 Speaker 1: his solution was. Because they were apart, These women were 223 00:14:00,559 --> 00:14:04,560 Speaker 1: a part of his sin. He would rather kill and 224 00:14:04,720 --> 00:14:10,000 Speaker 1: for some reason that outweighed the whole. Thou shalt boll 225 00:14:10,080 --> 00:14:15,760 Speaker 1: murder apparently, right, right, right, right? Yeah. We also want 226 00:14:15,760 --> 00:14:17,760 Speaker 1: to take a minute to look at a different term 227 00:14:17,800 --> 00:14:23,200 Speaker 1: coined by Riba Riley, called post traumatic church syndrome. Here's 228 00:14:23,200 --> 00:14:25,760 Speaker 1: a quote from her interview with The National Catholic Reporter. 229 00:14:26,440 --> 00:14:29,000 Speaker 1: Post traumatic church syndrome is the term I made up 230 00:14:29,040 --> 00:14:31,640 Speaker 1: to describe my spiritual injuries after I left my faith 231 00:14:31,680 --> 00:14:35,520 Speaker 1: in my early twenties. I define PTCs as one a 232 00:14:35,560 --> 00:14:38,800 Speaker 1: condition of spiritual injury that occurs as results of religion, 233 00:14:39,040 --> 00:14:42,760 Speaker 1: faith and or the losing, leaving, or breaking thereof, two 234 00:14:42,880 --> 00:14:47,080 Speaker 1: the vile, noxious and otherwise foul aftermath of said injury, 235 00:14:47,120 --> 00:14:52,160 Speaker 1: and three the serious term intended to aid serious spiritual 236 00:14:52,200 --> 00:14:57,240 Speaker 1: healing without taking itself too seriously in the process. In 237 00:14:57,280 --> 00:15:00,600 Speaker 1: another interview with Time, she says people who leave or 238 00:15:00,680 --> 00:15:02,920 Speaker 1: are left by their faith lose a lot more than 239 00:15:02,960 --> 00:15:06,120 Speaker 1: a place to go on Sunday morning. They lose relationships 240 00:15:06,120 --> 00:15:09,920 Speaker 1: with family and friends, social status, tribal approval, self esteem. 241 00:15:10,160 --> 00:15:14,120 Speaker 1: They lose their God, their identity, their certainty, their gravity. 242 00:15:14,560 --> 00:15:18,600 Speaker 1: I know because I lost all of these things right 243 00:15:18,760 --> 00:15:22,120 Speaker 1: and honestly, there's so much to be said. So she 244 00:15:22,160 --> 00:15:26,400 Speaker 1: wrote a whole book based on her experience and her 245 00:15:26,760 --> 00:15:30,400 Speaker 1: coining this term. But it's true. I've talked about it before. 246 00:15:30,800 --> 00:15:34,280 Speaker 1: When I walked away from what I thought and believed 247 00:15:34,320 --> 00:15:37,160 Speaker 1: and what I thought was my quote unquote calling it 248 00:15:37,440 --> 00:15:39,760 Speaker 1: felt like a piece of me had been ripped out 249 00:15:39,800 --> 00:15:44,000 Speaker 1: of me. Felt like either a death or a huge divorce, essentially, 250 00:15:44,640 --> 00:15:49,680 Speaker 1: because it took out part of my identity. Again, it 251 00:15:49,760 --> 00:15:53,200 Speaker 1: was a third like. It was a like a double 252 00:15:53,320 --> 00:15:56,920 Speaker 1: edged sword in that being an adoptee and being told 253 00:15:57,120 --> 00:16:01,000 Speaker 1: from the day that I arrived in the US that 254 00:16:01,680 --> 00:16:06,120 Speaker 1: God saved me for this purpose, and that this purpose 255 00:16:06,360 --> 00:16:11,880 Speaker 1: was to serve others to tell about Jesus, essentially, because 256 00:16:11,960 --> 00:16:14,720 Speaker 1: I had to be grateful that I was saved physically 257 00:16:14,720 --> 00:16:20,920 Speaker 1: and spiritually. And it was devastating when I felt that 258 00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:24,160 Speaker 1: falling apart, when I felt things falling apart, when I 259 00:16:24,200 --> 00:16:27,360 Speaker 1: came out and realized the things that were told to 260 00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:31,880 Speaker 1: me was love people were using as a weapon, and 261 00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:35,480 Speaker 1: especially coming in here, I'm like, my whole ideal and 262 00:16:35,520 --> 00:16:38,240 Speaker 1: I think this is to me being real, literal. I 263 00:16:38,320 --> 00:16:41,560 Speaker 1: cannot help being literal in that if I'm actually going 264 00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:44,400 Speaker 1: to help people, then I need to truly help people, 265 00:16:44,720 --> 00:16:47,840 Speaker 1: So being a social worker, being an advocate, but then 266 00:16:47,920 --> 00:16:50,880 Speaker 1: even not being able to do anything because there were roadblocks, 267 00:16:50,920 --> 00:16:53,480 Speaker 1: and there are politics, and it was politics based in 268 00:16:53,560 --> 00:16:56,040 Speaker 1: church and Christianity, and then on top of that lake 269 00:16:56,320 --> 00:16:59,360 Speaker 1: some of the scriptures saying people were going to hell 270 00:16:59,720 --> 00:17:02,040 Speaker 1: because of who they were created to be. When I 271 00:17:02,120 --> 00:17:05,000 Speaker 1: was similar to that. My personality was a very strong, 272 00:17:05,080 --> 00:17:08,520 Speaker 1: independent woman. That is not what I was taught. It 273 00:17:08,600 --> 00:17:12,600 Speaker 1: was a good thing, and I was ashamed. And then 274 00:17:12,680 --> 00:17:16,480 Speaker 1: finding leadership that was like, I'm like, oh, why would 275 00:17:16,480 --> 00:17:18,640 Speaker 1: I follow you? You'd ridiculous and you don't know what 276 00:17:18,680 --> 00:17:21,879 Speaker 1: you're doing. Just because you have a penis why should 277 00:17:21,880 --> 00:17:26,440 Speaker 1: I trust you more? And it was it was devastating 278 00:17:26,760 --> 00:17:29,840 Speaker 1: to see that, and it felt like I had lost 279 00:17:30,680 --> 00:17:33,840 Speaker 1: an entire chunk of my life, if not the whole 280 00:17:33,880 --> 00:17:38,800 Speaker 1: existence of my life, and trying to start over felt impossible. 281 00:17:39,119 --> 00:17:43,520 Speaker 1: So it made a lot of sense in that, of course, 282 00:17:43,960 --> 00:17:46,800 Speaker 1: there's an amazing thing when you heel and grow out 283 00:17:46,800 --> 00:17:48,679 Speaker 1: of it and do what you need to on your 284 00:17:48,720 --> 00:17:51,080 Speaker 1: own and finding your own spirituality. Of course, and I 285 00:17:51,320 --> 00:17:55,200 Speaker 1: said that in the first episode. I'm not completely atheist 286 00:17:55,000 --> 00:18:03,600 Speaker 1: in that I don't believe in something, whatever, the karma 287 00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:06,560 Speaker 1: that you know, the greater good, whatever, I want to know. 288 00:18:06,680 --> 00:18:08,679 Speaker 1: I want to think that there is a bigger purpose. 289 00:18:08,720 --> 00:18:12,520 Speaker 1: Of course, Do I believe what I believed back then? No? 290 00:18:13,000 --> 00:18:15,879 Speaker 1: Could I ever? I don't think so. It's been too 291 00:18:15,960 --> 00:18:20,679 Speaker 1: much and the things that I've seen again that based 292 00:18:20,760 --> 00:18:23,919 Speaker 1: all those fears and showed me that you could not question. 293 00:18:24,040 --> 00:18:28,240 Speaker 1: How is this big deity so fragile that you cannot 294 00:18:28,280 --> 00:18:30,879 Speaker 1: ask questions? It was a whole whole part of me 295 00:18:30,960 --> 00:18:35,679 Speaker 1: that felt lost, and it's still I still struggle with 296 00:18:35,720 --> 00:18:39,400 Speaker 1: it today. Obviously I've been talking about it. We've been 297 00:18:39,400 --> 00:18:43,160 Speaker 1: talking about it. How it really put a giant wedge 298 00:18:44,320 --> 00:18:47,080 Speaker 1: between people that I've known all my life for most 299 00:18:47,160 --> 00:18:50,480 Speaker 1: of my life, or those who I'm supposed to look 300 00:18:50,560 --> 00:18:54,600 Speaker 1: up to. And it's been a struggle. It's been very isolating. 301 00:18:55,080 --> 00:18:58,240 Speaker 1: And it's interesting to see because now I see family 302 00:18:58,320 --> 00:19:00,240 Speaker 1: members or people who are younger than me going that 303 00:19:00,280 --> 00:19:03,280 Speaker 1: same thing and it's and I hate that for them, 304 00:19:03,280 --> 00:19:05,959 Speaker 1: but they have to go through it themselves before they 305 00:19:06,040 --> 00:19:11,080 Speaker 1: understand what it is. But yes, I just wanted to 306 00:19:11,119 --> 00:19:28,760 Speaker 1: share that. Moving on, outside of my sad stories, what 307 00:19:28,840 --> 00:19:32,359 Speaker 1: does this mean for women and the marginalized community? What 308 00:19:32,480 --> 00:19:35,560 Speaker 1: does religious trauma look for those who are already seen 309 00:19:35,640 --> 00:19:40,600 Speaker 1: as not worth as much? Right in one article for 310 00:19:41,200 --> 00:19:43,600 Speaker 1: Life Afterdogma dot Com. And by the way, a lot 311 00:19:43,640 --> 00:19:48,760 Speaker 1: of our articles came from religious papers or religious sites 312 00:19:49,320 --> 00:19:51,720 Speaker 1: that had a lot of conversations, So again I'm not 313 00:19:51,800 --> 00:19:54,520 Speaker 1: going after religion in general, because they are having this 314 00:19:54,600 --> 00:19:57,680 Speaker 1: conversation within themselves and they see a problem as well. 315 00:19:57,760 --> 00:20:00,200 Speaker 1: So I think it's an amazing time to see that 316 00:20:00,240 --> 00:20:03,000 Speaker 1: people are being open and are willing to ask questions. 317 00:20:03,240 --> 00:20:07,200 Speaker 1: But again, so this is Life after Dogma dot Com 318 00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:10,119 Speaker 1: and the writer is injured Jessico. I really hope I 319 00:20:10,119 --> 00:20:12,879 Speaker 1: said that, right, I apologize, And he puts it frankly. 320 00:20:12,920 --> 00:20:16,959 Speaker 1: He says, many lead Christianity simply because they are women. 321 00:20:17,320 --> 00:20:20,640 Speaker 1: The Bible was written by men and for men. God 322 00:20:20,720 --> 00:20:25,560 Speaker 1: has a penis Patriarchy informs the entire biblical worldview there's 323 00:20:25,600 --> 00:20:29,520 Speaker 1: no escaping that try as liberal Christianity may, there's only 324 00:20:29,680 --> 00:20:33,400 Speaker 1: damage control. Women often find much more freedom in schools 325 00:20:33,640 --> 00:20:36,960 Speaker 1: and the workplace than in their churches, learning they don't 326 00:20:36,960 --> 00:20:39,760 Speaker 1: have to be quote silent and submissive to men like 327 00:20:39,840 --> 00:20:43,240 Speaker 1: in many churches. They aren't the property of men. Feminine 328 00:20:43,280 --> 00:20:45,880 Speaker 1: sexuality is not to be suppressed because it's some kind 329 00:20:45,920 --> 00:20:48,480 Speaker 1: of temptation for men, nor is it a service for 330 00:20:48,600 --> 00:20:50,960 Speaker 1: men on demand. And I thought that was an interesting 331 00:20:50,960 --> 00:20:53,160 Speaker 1: way of putting it. I do like the line about 332 00:20:54,080 --> 00:21:01,360 Speaker 1: God has a penis, are y'all? And as we talked 333 00:21:01,359 --> 00:21:04,159 Speaker 1: about in that first episode In our previous episode, history 334 00:21:04,359 --> 00:21:07,760 Speaker 1: is not kind to how the Bible is interpreted when 335 00:21:07,760 --> 00:21:11,399 Speaker 1: it comes to women and the marginalized community. And today's 336 00:21:11,440 --> 00:21:15,040 Speaker 1: debate as the country continues to be split with politicians 337 00:21:15,040 --> 00:21:20,400 Speaker 1: again weaponizing religion for power. There's a lot. But as 338 00:21:20,400 --> 00:21:22,880 Speaker 1: I said at the top, before we can actually talk 339 00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:27,000 Speaker 1: about how religious trauma affects women and the marginalized community 340 00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:30,239 Speaker 1: in general, we have to talk about the misogyny and 341 00:21:30,320 --> 00:21:34,959 Speaker 1: sexism in Christianity. So let's start it, Okay, Yeah, in 342 00:21:34,960 --> 00:21:39,120 Speaker 1: her journal, sexism and misogyny and the Christian tradition liberating alternatives. 343 00:21:39,359 --> 00:21:43,840 Speaker 1: Rosemary Radford Ruther researches the depths of these roles in Christianity. 344 00:21:44,040 --> 00:21:46,240 Speaker 1: At the start of her articles, she writes, attitudes towards 345 00:21:46,280 --> 00:21:49,000 Speaker 1: women are often the results of a quote patriarchal and 346 00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:52,440 Speaker 1: hierarchical reading of the system of Christian symbols as a whole, 347 00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:56,479 Speaker 1: rather than specific doctrines. These readings of a quote system 348 00:21:56,480 --> 00:22:01,000 Speaker 1: of domination derives from patriarchal slave acor sees the social 349 00:22:01,040 --> 00:22:04,000 Speaker 1: system in which Christianity was born. That is a quote, 350 00:22:04,280 --> 00:22:07,640 Speaker 1: but does recognize that its original intent quote began as 351 00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:12,359 Speaker 1: a critique of this system that proposed prophetic, liberating alternatives 352 00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:15,280 Speaker 1: that were then partially replaced, which we would argue that 353 00:22:15,280 --> 00:22:19,520 Speaker 1: the original ideal is what was most likely appeasing for 354 00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:24,480 Speaker 1: those who are marginalized. Misogynistic attitudes have roots in the 355 00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:29,680 Speaker 1: Greek philosophical tradition, particularly Aristotle, and these traditions believe that 356 00:22:29,800 --> 00:22:35,119 Speaker 1: quote women lack autonomous reason and were therefore inherently inferior 357 00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:38,480 Speaker 1: and dependent on the mail. Right, and again we're coming 358 00:22:38,480 --> 00:22:43,439 Speaker 1: back to Paul again, many opinions. Again, I really like 359 00:22:43,560 --> 00:22:46,439 Speaker 1: being not the only one. Love seeing it in writing too. 360 00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:50,639 Speaker 1: RUTHO wright quote, but Paul prefers that gender hierarchy and 361 00:22:50,720 --> 00:22:56,080 Speaker 1: slavery remained intact until Christ returns, which he had expected 362 00:22:56,119 --> 00:22:57,879 Speaker 1: to happen very soon. Which I feel like it happens 363 00:22:57,960 --> 00:23:00,000 Speaker 1: often most promised things. It is going to happen real soon. 364 00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:03,000 Speaker 1: It never really does. Whatever. I'm sure one day we'll 365 00:23:03,160 --> 00:23:06,520 Speaker 1: maybe we'll be shocked. Whatever. And Paul writes in a 366 00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:10,720 Speaker 1: New Testament that quote, equality in Christ is only spiritual 367 00:23:10,760 --> 00:23:15,840 Speaker 1: and does not affect worldly gender and class hierarchies. So 368 00:23:16,040 --> 00:23:20,280 Speaker 1: we wanted to take some Bible verses for you as examples, 369 00:23:20,920 --> 00:23:23,679 Speaker 1: and this one was from the New Testament. He wrote, wives, 370 00:23:23,720 --> 00:23:27,120 Speaker 1: obey your husband, and slaves obey your masters, and children 371 00:23:27,160 --> 00:23:31,520 Speaker 1: obey your parents. Yeah, and only continues with this theme throughout, 372 00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:36,440 Speaker 1: including verses like Ephesians chapter five, verse twenty two, quote, wives, 373 00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:39,480 Speaker 1: submit yourself to your own husband's as you do the Lord. 374 00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:43,359 Speaker 1: Then we go to First Corinthians chapter eleven, verse three. 375 00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:46,199 Speaker 1: But I want you to understand that Christ is the 376 00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:48,480 Speaker 1: head of every man, and the husband is the head 377 00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:50,880 Speaker 1: of his wife, and God is the head of Christ. 378 00:23:51,160 --> 00:23:55,080 Speaker 1: Also First Corinthians chapter eleven, verse eight and nine. Man 379 00:23:55,280 --> 00:23:58,000 Speaker 1: was not made from woman, but woman made from man. 380 00:23:58,480 --> 00:24:00,840 Speaker 1: Neither was man created for the sake of woman, but 381 00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:04,240 Speaker 1: for the sake of man. For this reason, a woman 382 00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:06,840 Speaker 1: should have a symbol of authority on our head. So 383 00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:11,280 Speaker 1: this is a debated topic about head covering, so you'll 384 00:24:11,320 --> 00:24:16,040 Speaker 1: see it throughout all kinds of conversations. Yeah, that was 385 00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:18,199 Speaker 1: something that happened in my college ministry. There was a 386 00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:24,840 Speaker 1: whole debate about head coverings. Really, uga even whoa and 387 00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:27,240 Speaker 1: Ruther goes on to say the first Epistle of Timothy, 388 00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:29,840 Speaker 1: a disciple of Paul quote seeks to give the final 389 00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:32,600 Speaker 1: basis for women subordination in the Church and to refute 390 00:24:32,600 --> 00:24:35,600 Speaker 1: any idea that this subordination had been overcome in Christ. 391 00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:38,680 Speaker 1: Women are said to have been both created second after 392 00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:41,680 Speaker 1: the Mail, and also to have been guilty of originating 393 00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:47,200 Speaker 1: humanities fall into sin. So here's some more Bible verses. 394 00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:50,800 Speaker 1: First Timothy, Chapter two, verses thirteen and fourteen quote for 395 00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:53,679 Speaker 1: Adam was formed first and then Eve, and Adam was 396 00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:57,440 Speaker 1: not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became the transgressor. 397 00:24:57,880 --> 00:25:00,200 Speaker 1: And with verses and texts like these, the message which 398 00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:02,760 Speaker 1: is very clear, not only are women's secondary, but they 399 00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:07,040 Speaker 1: are the reason or evil on earth, their sedectresses and 400 00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:11,439 Speaker 1: deceivers and easily misled, and their duties or perhaps more 401 00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:15,320 Speaker 1: along the lines of punishment are quote no authority in 402 00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:19,040 Speaker 1: the church expected to be silent submission to men, and 403 00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:22,520 Speaker 1: then pain of childbirth, right of course, and then of 404 00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:29,000 Speaker 1: course all of the pain in general. Women just deserve pain, right, okay, 405 00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:33,399 Speaker 1: And as we continue forward in history, the interpretation doesn't 406 00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:38,000 Speaker 1: stray far from those beliefs. Saint Augustine distinguishes between quote 407 00:25:38,119 --> 00:25:42,240 Speaker 1: the spiritual capacity of women's souls and her quote physical 408 00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:47,040 Speaker 1: nature as female, which is the rest right, not the 409 00:25:47,040 --> 00:25:50,160 Speaker 1: image of God, but rather images of the body as 410 00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:54,160 Speaker 1: carnal and prone to sin because we can conceive, right, 411 00:25:54,280 --> 00:25:56,840 Speaker 1: that means we're sinful. And the theology continues with the 412 00:25:56,880 --> 00:25:59,919 Speaker 1: idea that men are fully formed humans, but women are 413 00:26:00,240 --> 00:26:04,280 Speaker 1: quote defective humans. Yes, as were with the rights, Christ 414 00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:07,560 Speaker 1: had to be male to represent full humanity, and therefore 415 00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:12,080 Speaker 1: only males could represent Christ in the priesthood, and many 416 00:26:12,119 --> 00:26:14,919 Speaker 1: would consider God being male as well, or male representing 417 00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:18,960 Speaker 1: the strong, the righteous, anger, the powerful, So therefore obviously 418 00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:23,960 Speaker 1: he is masculine. And as we keep moving up the timeline, 419 00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:26,480 Speaker 1: the Reformation era was not so great for women either. 420 00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:30,639 Speaker 1: Louther and Calvin quote worsened at the early Christian tradition 421 00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:33,440 Speaker 1: by denying that women can exercise the power of prophecy. 422 00:26:34,480 --> 00:26:38,280 Speaker 1: They did, however, elevate women's characters a bit by rejecting 423 00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:40,560 Speaker 1: the idea of women as quote defective by nature, but 424 00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:45,399 Speaker 1: instead insisted that quote women accept their subordination as obedience 425 00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:50,520 Speaker 1: to the divinely established social order. And of course, quote 426 00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:53,840 Speaker 1: rationality and ruling power are seen as male qualities to 427 00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:58,800 Speaker 1: be exercised by males and inappropriate for women. Right, yeah, 428 00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:01,680 Speaker 1: just look at the status of politics today. We don't 429 00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:06,560 Speaker 1: have emotional politicians at all that are men. Or you know, 430 00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:10,480 Speaker 1: the whole dating scene is not like rampant with emotional 431 00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:13,120 Speaker 1: men who get very angry for no reason at all, 432 00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:15,520 Speaker 1: including like, oh, I don't know, I just saw a 433 00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:18,359 Speaker 1: wonderful tweet of a woman who got a message, and 434 00:27:18,359 --> 00:27:21,119 Speaker 1: it was she said, hey, I'm asleep, I'll respond to you, 435 00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:25,080 Speaker 1: and he sends a huge, long letter essentially telling her message, 436 00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:27,840 Speaker 1: essentially telling her that she's missing out, and all he 437 00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:30,480 Speaker 1: wanted to do is buy her things. Like it was 438 00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:32,159 Speaker 1: on and on, and then she was like, dude, I 439 00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:34,000 Speaker 1: told you I was asleep that I would get back 440 00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:37,040 Speaker 1: to you. She wasn't even rejecting him, right, But men 441 00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:43,080 Speaker 1: aren't emotional any they are so rational, but women just 442 00:27:43,160 --> 00:28:03,200 Speaker 1: inappropriate obviously. Okay. So, however, this theological battle of men's 443 00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:07,840 Speaker 1: roles versus women's roles has been around for years, and 444 00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:11,240 Speaker 1: I thought because we found several different articles talking about 445 00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:15,760 Speaker 1: feminism in the church, women's roles, and I found one 446 00:28:15,800 --> 00:28:19,120 Speaker 1: from nineteen eighty five and it's titled women are the 447 00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:23,400 Speaker 1: Devil's Gateway and it was for the New Internationalists, which 448 00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:25,240 Speaker 1: I think they did a whole debate for this, and 449 00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:27,080 Speaker 1: we're going to take a big chunk out of it 450 00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:31,360 Speaker 1: because again it's too fascinating. Today, Orthodox Jewish women are 451 00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:34,560 Speaker 1: still excluded from the praying community and seated behind a screen. 452 00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:37,679 Speaker 1: Roman Catholic and Protestant women who want to serve the 453 00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:41,440 Speaker 1: bread and wine are asked instead to serve church suppers. 454 00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:45,240 Speaker 1: Women in every congregation still hear such phrases as quote God, 455 00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:48,280 Speaker 1: our father sons of God, men of God, and the 456 00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:51,320 Speaker 1: brotherhood of Man. And in this patriarch of theology rights 457 00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:55,160 Speaker 1: American feminist Rosemary Ruther, the bill is taken to be 458 00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:58,440 Speaker 1: the normative representative of a human species, the norm for 459 00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:04,000 Speaker 1: imagining God and for anthropology, sin, redemption, and ministry. The female, 460 00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:07,480 Speaker 1: in contrast, is seen as subordinate and auxiliary to the male. 461 00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:11,560 Speaker 1: Women never appear in patriarchal theology as representatives of humanity. 462 00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:15,640 Speaker 1: As such, their normative position is that of absence and silence. 463 00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:19,840 Speaker 1: When patriarchal theology mentions women, it does so to reinforce 464 00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:24,480 Speaker 1: its definition of her place in the system. Feminist scholars 465 00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:28,000 Speaker 1: also began to identify the relationship between the sexism women 466 00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:32,320 Speaker 1: experience that worship and the biblical worldview. The creation stories 467 00:29:32,360 --> 00:29:35,120 Speaker 1: shared by Christians, Muslims, and Jews is a cornerstone of 468 00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:38,600 Speaker 1: the historical bias towards women. According to the Hebrew folktale, 469 00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:42,080 Speaker 1: Eve tempted Adam with a forbidden fruit and thus triggered 470 00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:47,040 Speaker 1: humankind's expulsion from paradise. The identification of women with evil, temptation, 471 00:29:47,080 --> 00:29:51,480 Speaker 1: and sin thus became a primary ingredient in Christian tradition. 472 00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:55,240 Speaker 1: While men was associated with the spiritual, the reasonable, and 473 00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:59,880 Speaker 1: the godly, women was linked to flesh, matter, and the world. 474 00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:04,320 Speaker 1: Good and evil were given the clear sexual counterparts. According 475 00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:07,400 Speaker 1: to this very view, women actually cause evil to come 476 00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:09,840 Speaker 1: into the world. As a result, they must atone for 477 00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:13,520 Speaker 1: their collective guilt and redeem themselves, and with that the 478 00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:17,120 Speaker 1: article continues so In the past decade, feminists have challenged 479 00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:20,600 Speaker 1: assumptions that any form of oppression is natural part of 480 00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:24,080 Speaker 1: the created order, and such devastating critiques of the Judaeo 481 00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:27,360 Speaker 1: Christian tradition have led many feminists to leave established churches 482 00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:31,120 Speaker 1: and synagogues. A goddess movement has emerged, in which women 483 00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:35,280 Speaker 1: are attempting to reshape ancient worship and celebrate women's creative power. 484 00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:38,720 Speaker 1: Spiritual feminism has become an important aspect of the women's 485 00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:44,040 Speaker 1: movement worldwide. Still, many feminists choose to remain within organized religions. 486 00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:47,120 Speaker 1: Those who stay obviously believe the women's movement can change 487 00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:50,440 Speaker 1: the church. Christian feminists in particular look at early church 488 00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:53,080 Speaker 1: history in the life of Jesus for inspiration. In the 489 00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:57,120 Speaker 1: community Jesus gathered around him, women retreated as equals, playing 490 00:30:57,160 --> 00:31:01,000 Speaker 1: central roles in their early church. Jesus told us followers 491 00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:04,920 Speaker 1: call no man father, no man master, and warned them 492 00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:08,400 Speaker 1: not to quote Lord It over others. So many Christian 493 00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:13,160 Speaker 1: feminists find affirmation hope in Jesus's life and teachings. Along 494 00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:16,480 Speaker 1: with other liberation theologians, they say the Bible puts God 495 00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:19,200 Speaker 1: squarely on the side of the poor and oppressed, and 496 00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:22,320 Speaker 1: that true liberation can only come when women can take 497 00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:25,360 Speaker 1: their place at the very center of faith as subjects 498 00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:29,360 Speaker 1: rather than objects. Right Again, we're coming back to a 499 00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:33,640 Speaker 1: lot of conversation about trying to meet in the middle, 500 00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:39,520 Speaker 1: trying to re establish what the Bible truly meant. And again, 501 00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:43,440 Speaker 1: there are so many terms within Christian culture that kind 502 00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:47,680 Speaker 1: of goes from one to another eye. As a teacher 503 00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:50,720 Speaker 1: of the Bible, I'm putting that in quotes. We'll talk 504 00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:52,880 Speaker 1: about the word being, and we called it the Word 505 00:31:53,080 --> 00:31:56,600 Speaker 1: of Being, the living Word of God. So in that aspect, 506 00:31:56,920 --> 00:31:59,520 Speaker 1: the conversation and the ideal was that it grew and 507 00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:02,320 Speaker 1: it it didn't necessarily change, but it went with the 508 00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:06,520 Speaker 1: times and the idea that we don't know, we don't 509 00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:10,920 Speaker 1: know the true intent of what God or Jesus are, 510 00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:14,240 Speaker 1: the spiritual aspects of what it should have been, and 511 00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:16,680 Speaker 1: that it is supposed to be a guide. Again, we're 512 00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:20,200 Speaker 1: coming back to the conversation I'm getting really about literal 513 00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:23,640 Speaker 1: versus figurative. There's so many things and we know that 514 00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:27,240 Speaker 1: that happens with a lot all the religions. Buddhism has 515 00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:32,560 Speaker 1: that extremist versus more liberal thinking, Christianity, Judaism, all of 516 00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:35,680 Speaker 1: that has its own spectrum of what they believe is 517 00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:39,840 Speaker 1: versus figurative, what we should be looking at, what we 518 00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:43,520 Speaker 1: should be taking as an example of, or just a 519 00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:46,400 Speaker 1: story or a prophecy. Again, there's so much to that, 520 00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:49,560 Speaker 1: and I think women for so long when you look 521 00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:53,400 Speaker 1: at again, and we talked about previously that if we 522 00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:56,800 Speaker 1: were looking at the word of Jesus alone, he never 523 00:32:56,840 --> 00:32:59,720 Speaker 1: comes in with those women or this is and this 524 00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:02,040 Speaker 1: that has never been his goal, and that was not 525 00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:05,760 Speaker 1: a thing that was ever preached. It is very ironic 526 00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:10,440 Speaker 1: that we have people who sit as leaders of churches 527 00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:14,480 Speaker 1: saying that their word is the authority of versus actual 528 00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:17,160 Speaker 1: biblical word or truth or what they want to say 529 00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:20,000 Speaker 1: is truth, which is, you know, the idea of Jesus. 530 00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:23,240 Speaker 1: And again, if we take what Christianity was supposed to 531 00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:26,280 Speaker 1: be today, which is the covering of the things that 532 00:33:26,320 --> 00:33:29,520 Speaker 1: you couldn't do, as in like you can't save yourself, 533 00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:31,920 Speaker 1: that whole idea, like you're not good, you're not going 534 00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:35,480 Speaker 1: to be good enough, which both like alleviates a little 535 00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:38,800 Speaker 1: bit of responsibility, but at the same time like seems 536 00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:42,000 Speaker 1: impossible that like you could have one extreme to another. 537 00:33:42,640 --> 00:33:44,880 Speaker 1: And you know, with that article from nineteen eighty five, 538 00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:47,080 Speaker 1: and I guess from that paper with Ruther, she's been 539 00:33:47,080 --> 00:33:48,600 Speaker 1: around for a minute, and I have been talking about 540 00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:53,400 Speaker 1: this for a minute as well. Not much has changed. 541 00:33:54,400 --> 00:33:56,280 Speaker 1: The thing that has changed is I think a lot 542 00:33:56,320 --> 00:33:59,040 Speaker 1: of women have given up and instead of trying to 543 00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:03,560 Speaker 1: marry those deals together, they are leaving. As we talked 544 00:34:03,600 --> 00:34:08,520 Speaker 1: about it previously, especially those in the millennial gen Zeer 545 00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:12,520 Speaker 1: groups have truly left. I think one statistics were showing 546 00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:15,040 Speaker 1: like forty percent of women were like had enough of 547 00:34:15,080 --> 00:34:18,280 Speaker 1: the millennial group has had enough and started to slowly 548 00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:24,000 Speaker 1: walk away. When we look at the depth of stigmas 549 00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:26,399 Speaker 1: that happens within religions, and I'm having it a hard 550 00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:28,759 Speaker 1: time because there's so much. I have a lot of 551 00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:31,200 Speaker 1: people and good friends who are still very religious and 552 00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:35,040 Speaker 1: who still are very heavily into church, and I think 553 00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:38,240 Speaker 1: they are great people, and if they are doing something 554 00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:42,200 Speaker 1: that makes them feel hopeful and push forward, I love that. 555 00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:45,000 Speaker 1: I love that for them. But what we're seeing today 556 00:34:45,680 --> 00:34:49,200 Speaker 1: is that's not it. We're taking that whole ideal into 557 00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:52,680 Speaker 1: becoming a fascist state, and that's the scary part of 558 00:34:52,680 --> 00:34:55,800 Speaker 1: what we're seeing. I keep saying that because I really 559 00:34:57,120 --> 00:35:00,520 Speaker 1: I know how important religion can be. Again, I've talked 560 00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:02,879 Speaker 1: about the fact that it really did help me in 561 00:35:02,880 --> 00:35:06,799 Speaker 1: my darkest time, but I also know how detrimental it 562 00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:10,640 Speaker 1: can be when this type of abuse and trauma occurs. 563 00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:12,760 Speaker 1: And we want to make sure that we are talking 564 00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:18,920 Speaker 1: about that in a full stretch and how we need 565 00:35:18,960 --> 00:35:21,800 Speaker 1: to be aware for those around us and as again 566 00:35:22,840 --> 00:35:28,600 Speaker 1: as the world is slowly feeling like stepping backwards and 567 00:35:28,680 --> 00:35:31,680 Speaker 1: speaking of that. Yeah, so kind of give you the 568 00:35:31,680 --> 00:35:33,880 Speaker 1: preview of next episode. Again, We're going to talk about 569 00:35:34,280 --> 00:35:37,040 Speaker 1: the purity movement within Christianity. We're gonna talk about the 570 00:35:37,040 --> 00:35:39,960 Speaker 1: perfect ideal of mothers. We're gonna talk about domestic violence. 571 00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:43,200 Speaker 1: Up coming, we'll be talking about Christian nationalism as well 572 00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:49,200 Speaker 1: as cults. There's a lot, Yeah, there is a lot. 573 00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:52,640 Speaker 1: There is a lot. I mean, it just touches on 574 00:35:52,719 --> 00:35:54,359 Speaker 1: so much that we talk about all the time here. 575 00:35:54,680 --> 00:35:57,480 Speaker 1: So it makes sense to me that it was a 576 00:35:57,600 --> 00:36:04,160 Speaker 1: multi part series and it will be ongoing. So look 577 00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:09,120 Speaker 1: out for those episodes upcoming listeners in the meantime, If 578 00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:12,360 Speaker 1: you have any thoughts on this or any ideas for 579 00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:15,360 Speaker 1: things we should cover, you can email us. Our email 580 00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:17,840 Speaker 1: is Stuff in the Mom Stuff at iHeartMedia dot com. 581 00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:20,080 Speaker 1: You can find us on Twitter at most a Podcasts, 582 00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:23,640 Speaker 1: or on Instagram or TikTok at stuff We Never Told You. 583 00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:26,040 Speaker 1: We're also on YouTube. We also have a book coming out. 584 00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:28,520 Speaker 1: You can pre order it at stuff you Should Read 585 00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:33,560 Speaker 1: Books dot com. Thanks, as always too, our superproducer Christina, 586 00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:37,040 Speaker 1: our executive producer Maya, and our contributor Joey was very 587 00:36:37,040 --> 00:36:39,400 Speaker 1: helpful for this one. Yes did so much. Thank you 588 00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:42,880 Speaker 1: all so much, Yes, and thanks to you for listening. 589 00:36:43,120 --> 00:36:45,319 Speaker 1: Stuff I Never Told Us production of iHeartRadio. For more 590 00:36:45,360 --> 00:36:47,000 Speaker 1: podcast or my heart Radio, you can check out the 591 00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:49,040 Speaker 1: I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen 592 00:36:49,120 --> 00:36:50,080 Speaker 1: to your favorite shows.