1 00:00:05,400 --> 00:00:09,600 Speaker 1: Hey there, it's Jonathan Strickland, and I'm here to introduce 2 00:00:09,760 --> 00:00:14,560 Speaker 1: a playlist of ten episodes of my podcast tech Stuff 3 00:00:15,040 --> 00:00:20,000 Speaker 1: that are all about entertainment and entertainment related fields, from 4 00:00:20,120 --> 00:00:25,720 Speaker 1: video games to television series, two films to internet videos 5 00:00:26,000 --> 00:00:30,440 Speaker 1: from yesteryear. So I hope you guys enjoy these episodes. 6 00:00:30,560 --> 00:00:34,440 Speaker 1: You can go to the tech Stuff podcast page and 7 00:00:34,479 --> 00:00:38,000 Speaker 1: subscribe to listen to all sorts of episodes about tech 8 00:00:38,080 --> 00:00:42,240 Speaker 1: from all realms, and hopefully this will provide a little 9 00:00:42,240 --> 00:00:46,040 Speaker 1: bit of entertainment, a little bit of education, and probably 10 00:00:46,080 --> 00:00:49,000 Speaker 1: more than a few puns, because that's kind of how 11 00:00:49,080 --> 00:01:06,240 Speaker 1: I roll enjoy this playlist. Welcome to text Uff, a 12 00:01:06,319 --> 00:01:12,920 Speaker 1: production from I Heart Radio. Hey there, and welcome to 13 00:01:13,040 --> 00:01:16,160 Speaker 1: tex Stuff. I'm your host, Jonathan Strickland. I'm an executive 14 00:01:16,160 --> 00:01:18,200 Speaker 1: producer with iHeart Radio and I love all things tech 15 00:01:18,240 --> 00:01:22,040 Speaker 1: and we're listening to another playlist episode. This one is 16 00:01:22,080 --> 00:01:24,800 Speaker 1: called Tron He Fights for the Users, where we speak 17 00:01:24,800 --> 00:01:29,040 Speaker 1: with the director of the original movie Tron and how 18 00:01:29,160 --> 00:01:31,520 Speaker 1: all of that came together. It turns out that was 19 00:01:31,560 --> 00:01:36,880 Speaker 1: a pretty remarkable effort. It gave the look of computer 20 00:01:37,000 --> 00:01:41,720 Speaker 1: graphics in some places where it was really hand drawn animation. Uh, 21 00:01:41,720 --> 00:01:43,720 Speaker 1: it did use c g I as well, but it 22 00:01:43,800 --> 00:01:47,280 Speaker 1: was an interesting, you know, kind of marriage of all 23 00:01:47,360 --> 00:01:51,280 Speaker 1: those arts, live action, computer animation and hand drawn animation. 24 00:01:51,880 --> 00:01:55,040 Speaker 1: So let's take a listen. Tron follows the story of 25 00:01:55,040 --> 00:01:58,000 Speaker 1: a character named Flynn, who is a video game designer 26 00:01:58,080 --> 00:02:01,800 Speaker 1: and hacker who once was the employee of a corporation 27 00:02:01,880 --> 00:02:06,600 Speaker 1: called InCom. One of Flynn's co workers named Dillinger, stole 28 00:02:06,840 --> 00:02:10,480 Speaker 1: Flynn's work and arranged Flynn's removal from the company and 29 00:02:10,520 --> 00:02:14,679 Speaker 1: covered it all up. Flynn plans a daring computer raid 30 00:02:14,840 --> 00:02:16,720 Speaker 1: on the company with the help of two of his 31 00:02:16,800 --> 00:02:20,960 Speaker 1: former co workers. His big goal is to uncover the 32 00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:26,240 Speaker 1: actual evidence that in fact, Dillinger stole Flynn's work, and 33 00:02:26,400 --> 00:02:31,480 Speaker 1: his big opponent in this raid is an artificial intelligent construct. 34 00:02:31,480 --> 00:02:34,200 Speaker 1: It's a piece of code. It's some software. It's called 35 00:02:34,440 --> 00:02:38,519 Speaker 1: the Master Control Program or m c P. Now, originally 36 00:02:38,560 --> 00:02:41,560 Speaker 1: that started out as a chess game, but it had 37 00:02:41,600 --> 00:02:45,200 Speaker 1: started to assimilate other programs into its own code and 38 00:02:45,240 --> 00:02:50,440 Speaker 1: systematically growing more powerful as a result. So imagine sort 39 00:02:50,440 --> 00:02:55,760 Speaker 1: of like the borg absorbing other entities to gain more strength. 40 00:02:56,040 --> 00:02:57,840 Speaker 1: That's kind of what the m c P is doing. 41 00:02:58,639 --> 00:03:03,080 Speaker 1: He gets more and more capability as it absorbs other programs. 42 00:03:03,120 --> 00:03:06,400 Speaker 1: So while Flynn is trying to break into Incom's systems, 43 00:03:06,639 --> 00:03:09,680 Speaker 1: the m c P detects him and uses a laser 44 00:03:09,800 --> 00:03:13,880 Speaker 1: to convert Flynn into digital information and essentially upload him 45 00:03:13,919 --> 00:03:17,720 Speaker 1: to the computer. That pulls Flynn into the computer world 46 00:03:17,760 --> 00:03:21,320 Speaker 1: and their Flynn encounters programs and in the world of 47 00:03:21,400 --> 00:03:25,880 Speaker 1: the computer simulation or the computer environment, these programs have 48 00:03:25,960 --> 00:03:29,440 Speaker 1: the appearances of humans in this universe, they also resemble 49 00:03:29,680 --> 00:03:34,160 Speaker 1: their creators, whoever programmed them. One of those programs is Tron. 50 00:03:34,680 --> 00:03:38,760 Speaker 1: The name is short for Electronic. Tron is a security 51 00:03:38,800 --> 00:03:41,240 Speaker 1: program and is designed to keep an eye on the 52 00:03:41,400 --> 00:03:43,680 Speaker 1: m c P. But he also acts kind of like 53 00:03:43,680 --> 00:03:46,360 Speaker 1: a gladiator in various games that the m c P 54 00:03:46,600 --> 00:03:50,840 Speaker 1: forces programs to participate in, and as some people mentioned 55 00:03:51,000 --> 00:03:53,760 Speaker 1: within the context of the film, he fights for the users. 56 00:03:54,080 --> 00:03:57,680 Speaker 1: It's one of my favorite quotes from Tron. Users in 57 00:03:57,720 --> 00:04:00,440 Speaker 1: the Tron universe are sort of seen as like odds. 58 00:04:00,560 --> 00:04:04,680 Speaker 1: They are the creators, and the programs look to users 59 00:04:04,720 --> 00:04:08,000 Speaker 1: for guidance and for approval, and they have had all 60 00:04:08,040 --> 00:04:11,000 Speaker 1: communication cut off by the m c P, so they 61 00:04:11,040 --> 00:04:13,880 Speaker 1: wonder if the users are still out there. There's this 62 00:04:13,920 --> 00:04:17,360 Speaker 1: whole existential crisis going on in the world of Tron, 63 00:04:17,920 --> 00:04:21,040 Speaker 1: and that's an interesting piece of the mythology of the movie. 64 00:04:21,279 --> 00:04:23,880 Speaker 1: Flynn eventually, of course, helps bring down the m c 65 00:04:24,080 --> 00:04:27,640 Speaker 1: P and he escapes the computer world. He's also able 66 00:04:27,680 --> 00:04:30,600 Speaker 1: to prove that Dillinger stole his work, and he ends 67 00:04:30,640 --> 00:04:33,880 Speaker 1: up becoming the new head of Income as a result. Now, 68 00:04:33,920 --> 00:04:36,719 Speaker 1: the film was not a big success at the box office, 69 00:04:36,760 --> 00:04:39,840 Speaker 1: but it did find itself a cult following and also 70 00:04:39,880 --> 00:04:43,799 Speaker 1: had a profound impact on the way people would visualize cyberspace. 71 00:04:44,160 --> 00:04:46,159 Speaker 1: I would even say that you could see elements of 72 00:04:46,200 --> 00:04:49,919 Speaker 1: the design from Tron find its way into early implementations 73 00:04:49,920 --> 00:04:52,880 Speaker 1: of virtual reality, and the production of the film itself 74 00:04:52,920 --> 00:04:56,400 Speaker 1: relied heavily on some really innovative work from numerous people 75 00:04:56,800 --> 00:04:59,320 Speaker 1: in order for the film to actually come into being. 76 00:05:00,160 --> 00:05:04,000 Speaker 1: So Ramsey the Wonder Producer arranged for me to have 77 00:05:04,080 --> 00:05:07,560 Speaker 1: an interview with the writer and director of Tron, Stephen Liszburger. 78 00:05:07,920 --> 00:05:11,360 Speaker 1: What follows is our conversation about the technology he used 79 00:05:11,360 --> 00:05:14,119 Speaker 1: to create the movie, as well as his philosophy about 80 00:05:14,120 --> 00:05:19,240 Speaker 1: technology and stuff in general. Really the things that informed 81 00:05:19,320 --> 00:05:23,040 Speaker 1: the creation of Tron. I hope you enjoy Stephen Lisztburger, 82 00:05:23,120 --> 00:05:25,080 Speaker 1: it is a pleasure to have you on the show. 83 00:05:25,160 --> 00:05:29,360 Speaker 1: Thank you for joining Tech Stuff my pleasure. Now before 84 00:05:29,360 --> 00:05:32,159 Speaker 1: we jump into Tron, and I've got a lot of 85 00:05:32,200 --> 00:05:36,360 Speaker 1: things to ask about for Tron. Uh. Maybe my listeners 86 00:05:36,400 --> 00:05:40,320 Speaker 1: would probably appreciate understanding a little bit about your background 87 00:05:40,440 --> 00:05:44,480 Speaker 1: leading up to Tron. You had a background in animation 88 00:05:45,000 --> 00:05:48,000 Speaker 1: leading up to that. I come from the East Coast. 89 00:05:48,080 --> 00:05:51,160 Speaker 1: I was born in New York and went to college 90 00:05:51,240 --> 00:05:55,240 Speaker 1: in Boston at TOPS and went to the School of 91 00:05:55,320 --> 00:05:58,320 Speaker 1: the Museum of Fine Arts, where I studied film for 92 00:05:58,520 --> 00:06:01,960 Speaker 1: five years in looting animation, and I had my own 93 00:06:02,000 --> 00:06:08,160 Speaker 1: company in Boston that did some live action but primarily animation. 94 00:06:09,040 --> 00:06:14,160 Speaker 1: And uh. We eventually ended up with a studio on 95 00:06:14,200 --> 00:06:17,680 Speaker 1: the East Coast and went on the West coast we're in. 96 00:06:17,880 --> 00:06:22,880 Speaker 1: Our biggest job was doing Animal Olympics for the NBC 97 00:06:23,080 --> 00:06:29,480 Speaker 1: television network, and during that we developed Tron and then 98 00:06:30,320 --> 00:06:33,839 Speaker 1: tried to do it independently, but we couldn't pull it off, 99 00:06:33,920 --> 00:06:39,720 Speaker 1: so we were fortunate enough to get in business with Disney. Yeah. 100 00:06:39,720 --> 00:06:43,479 Speaker 1: I imagine a project with the scope of Tron would 101 00:06:43,480 --> 00:06:46,760 Speaker 1: have been extremely challenging to pull off without some some 102 00:06:46,839 --> 00:06:52,040 Speaker 1: pretty major help. And I also imagine that Disney's background 103 00:06:52,200 --> 00:06:57,000 Speaker 1: in animation uh led to some some aid when you 104 00:06:57,040 --> 00:06:59,280 Speaker 1: guys were working on Tron, because I don't know that 105 00:06:59,520 --> 00:07:02,440 Speaker 1: people who have seen the film are really aware how 106 00:07:02,560 --> 00:07:09,480 Speaker 1: much actual hand drawn animation techniques were incorporated. This was 107 00:07:09,520 --> 00:07:14,120 Speaker 1: an era before computer graphics had reached that digital age 108 00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:16,920 Speaker 1: where you do everything you know digitally on a computer 109 00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:19,119 Speaker 1: and then you can just export to a video file. 110 00:07:19,240 --> 00:07:23,239 Speaker 1: This is way before all of that, so I imagine 111 00:07:23,280 --> 00:07:26,280 Speaker 1: Disney's involvement was somewhat helpful because that was a studio 112 00:07:26,320 --> 00:07:30,360 Speaker 1: that actually understood animation. Yeah, all of that is true, 113 00:07:30,640 --> 00:07:36,040 Speaker 1: And just to unpack that, if we had tried to 114 00:07:36,120 --> 00:07:40,720 Speaker 1: do it independently, I think it would have we wouldn't 115 00:07:40,720 --> 00:07:44,119 Speaker 1: have made it eventually. We would have had to either 116 00:07:44,200 --> 00:07:48,440 Speaker 1: go under or bring in someone else because we were 117 00:07:48,640 --> 00:07:52,960 Speaker 1: somewhat naive. We had an idea how we would do it, 118 00:07:53,040 --> 00:07:57,360 Speaker 1: but we in retrospect the scale of it was something 119 00:07:57,400 --> 00:08:01,040 Speaker 1: that none of us had experienced with. On paper, we 120 00:08:01,120 --> 00:08:04,120 Speaker 1: thought we could work it all out. It added up 121 00:08:04,160 --> 00:08:07,760 Speaker 1: and made sense, but when we got into it at Disney, 122 00:08:07,880 --> 00:08:11,760 Speaker 1: many times I thought I'm really glad we're here and 123 00:08:11,880 --> 00:08:16,200 Speaker 1: not in any other studio, because, as you said, we 124 00:08:16,200 --> 00:08:20,680 Speaker 1: we had we had hundreds and hundreds of thousands of 125 00:08:20,840 --> 00:08:26,160 Speaker 1: pieces of artwork, um put any in just the frame 126 00:08:26,200 --> 00:08:31,000 Speaker 1: blow ups, Every individual frame of the electronic world blown up, 127 00:08:31,040 --> 00:08:34,079 Speaker 1: shot at seventy moment are blown up. They were when 128 00:08:34,120 --> 00:08:38,520 Speaker 1: they were stacked up. They filled two entire moving vans. 129 00:08:39,440 --> 00:08:42,720 Speaker 1: I mean, it was tons and tons and tons of 130 00:08:42,760 --> 00:08:51,040 Speaker 1: images and it it didn't freak Disney out because they said, yeah, 131 00:08:51,080 --> 00:08:54,720 Speaker 1: we're used to handling millions of pieces of artwork. And 132 00:08:54,840 --> 00:08:58,840 Speaker 1: in the end, that was totally the strength production wise 133 00:08:59,160 --> 00:09:03,320 Speaker 1: of the project because we all of us working on 134 00:09:03,360 --> 00:09:06,959 Speaker 1: it were familiar with animation. Even the live action people 135 00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:09,960 Speaker 1: had quite a bit of experience and animation. So we 136 00:09:10,040 --> 00:09:13,480 Speaker 1: sort of took the best from live action and then 137 00:09:13,600 --> 00:09:16,960 Speaker 1: we turned the whole live action movie into an animated movie. 138 00:09:17,679 --> 00:09:21,840 Speaker 1: And once it was at that level, you could treat 139 00:09:21,880 --> 00:09:25,840 Speaker 1: it like mass production. You could just keep multiplying the 140 00:09:25,960 --> 00:09:30,360 Speaker 1: number of teams working on the individual scenes. And and 141 00:09:30,440 --> 00:09:33,400 Speaker 1: there was a system there. We weren't reinventing the wheel. 142 00:09:34,040 --> 00:09:37,640 Speaker 1: That system existed. People knew how to do you know, 143 00:09:37,920 --> 00:09:42,680 Speaker 1: animated effects and how to work with these numbers of 144 00:09:43,760 --> 00:09:46,480 Speaker 1: probably it had to be over a million pieces in 145 00:09:46,520 --> 00:09:50,760 Speaker 1: the end. And the funny thing about it is how 146 00:09:50,800 --> 00:09:54,480 Speaker 1: efficient it was, because we ended up doing all of 147 00:09:54,520 --> 00:09:58,320 Speaker 1: the special effects in Tron one in half the time 148 00:09:58,840 --> 00:10:02,640 Speaker 1: that it took to do them in Tron too well, 149 00:10:02,720 --> 00:10:04,959 Speaker 1: and and correct me if I got this, get any 150 00:10:05,000 --> 00:10:06,360 Speaker 1: of this wrong. I want to see if I can 151 00:10:06,400 --> 00:10:09,400 Speaker 1: kind of lay out for my listeners sort of a 152 00:10:09,480 --> 00:10:13,720 Speaker 1: general approach to the electronic world sequences which took up 153 00:10:14,040 --> 00:10:17,000 Speaker 1: more almost an entire hour of Tron I think about 154 00:10:17,480 --> 00:10:20,240 Speaker 1: somewhere around the realm of fifty three to fifty five 155 00:10:20,280 --> 00:10:23,320 Speaker 1: minutes something like that of a footage in this electronic world. 156 00:10:24,160 --> 00:10:28,000 Speaker 1: So the thing is, there was an underlying template that 157 00:10:28,080 --> 00:10:30,600 Speaker 1: I had in mind, which is, you know, a sort 158 00:10:30,600 --> 00:10:34,079 Speaker 1: of live action short at the beginning then followed by 159 00:10:34,559 --> 00:10:38,480 Speaker 1: an animated movie. Is what Disney used to make. And 160 00:10:38,800 --> 00:10:41,040 Speaker 1: you know they always did that with their live action 161 00:10:41,120 --> 00:10:45,160 Speaker 1: films and animated and live or live and animated, and 162 00:10:45,240 --> 00:10:49,040 Speaker 1: so that combination is what I was going for. You know, 163 00:10:49,040 --> 00:10:52,439 Speaker 1: it's sort of a it's it's kind of an animated 164 00:10:52,480 --> 00:10:56,440 Speaker 1: feature in terms of that length of about seventy minutes 165 00:10:57,040 --> 00:10:59,440 Speaker 1: with the live action being kind of a short at 166 00:10:59,440 --> 00:11:02,920 Speaker 1: the beginning. So and the way that would work out, 167 00:11:02,960 --> 00:11:05,680 Speaker 1: like you said, you shot on seventy millimeter in large 168 00:11:05,720 --> 00:11:09,240 Speaker 1: each frame. Because to remind my listeners, some of whom 169 00:11:09,240 --> 00:11:12,720 Speaker 1: are are too young to really remember the days of film, 170 00:11:13,320 --> 00:11:19,160 Speaker 1: you're it's really funny, you know, once time moves on 171 00:11:19,840 --> 00:11:22,960 Speaker 1: and people forget about how difficult it was in the past. 172 00:11:23,320 --> 00:11:26,400 Speaker 1: It's a little bit like the next generation doesn't really 173 00:11:26,520 --> 00:11:31,280 Speaker 1: care how difficult it was before. And you know, there 174 00:11:31,400 --> 00:11:36,679 Speaker 1: was no way to composite film if you that was efficient, 175 00:11:36,800 --> 00:11:40,559 Speaker 1: if you did effects and you had characters, and you 176 00:11:40,840 --> 00:11:45,040 Speaker 1: had a fantasy background, there really was no good way 177 00:11:45,080 --> 00:11:48,360 Speaker 1: to put all of this together. Blue Screen existed, but 178 00:11:48,440 --> 00:11:52,200 Speaker 1: I've shot blue screen, and you know, if if you 179 00:11:52,600 --> 00:11:55,679 Speaker 1: at the time, if you had twenty or fifty blue 180 00:11:55,679 --> 00:11:59,520 Speaker 1: screen shots in the film, that was a lot. Well, 181 00:11:59,520 --> 00:12:03,440 Speaker 1: we had nine h composite shots that we had to do, 182 00:12:04,120 --> 00:12:07,679 Speaker 1: nine shots that had you and beings in worlds that 183 00:12:07,720 --> 00:12:11,840 Speaker 1: didn't exist, plus their costumes who were supposed to be glowing. 184 00:12:12,640 --> 00:12:17,040 Speaker 1: And there was no digital compositing. You couldn't even run 185 00:12:17,200 --> 00:12:23,000 Speaker 1: computer animation consecutively. We only had enough computing power. We 186 00:12:23,080 --> 00:12:27,679 Speaker 1: had total two megabytes, and we only had enough memory 187 00:12:28,040 --> 00:12:33,560 Speaker 1: to render one frame at a time period, so you 188 00:12:33,640 --> 00:12:38,480 Speaker 1: could never look at the light cycles moving. You could 189 00:12:38,520 --> 00:12:42,000 Speaker 1: only look at this individual frame. Then you had to 190 00:12:42,000 --> 00:12:45,240 Speaker 1: wait forty five minutes and render the next frame and 191 00:12:45,280 --> 00:12:49,280 Speaker 1: look at that one. And the only time we ever 192 00:12:49,320 --> 00:12:51,760 Speaker 1: saw the stuff put together is after we set up 193 00:12:51,800 --> 00:12:55,880 Speaker 1: a film camera and clicked like an animated movie, one 194 00:12:56,080 --> 00:13:00,760 Speaker 1: frame at a time off of this computer animation, and 195 00:13:00,920 --> 00:13:03,720 Speaker 1: then weep would all go into the screening room and 196 00:13:03,760 --> 00:13:06,960 Speaker 1: sit there. Even the guys that did all the computer 197 00:13:07,040 --> 00:13:10,240 Speaker 1: work had never seen it moving, and we saw it 198 00:13:10,320 --> 00:13:14,719 Speaker 1: for the very first time when we filmed it one 199 00:13:14,760 --> 00:13:17,480 Speaker 1: frame at a time and then ran it back. And 200 00:13:17,559 --> 00:13:22,240 Speaker 1: so to put all of this together, to composite it, 201 00:13:22,320 --> 00:13:25,040 Speaker 1: the only way we could do it was to do 202 00:13:25,600 --> 00:13:29,840 Speaker 1: blow up every frame and make it into an animated movie. 203 00:13:30,880 --> 00:13:33,520 Speaker 1: And what we did to combine it with the computer 204 00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:38,600 Speaker 1: animation was to try to find a sort of middle 205 00:13:38,679 --> 00:13:42,280 Speaker 1: ground where the live action would look like it had 206 00:13:42,280 --> 00:13:46,640 Speaker 1: been rendered by a computer and the computer animation wasn't 207 00:13:46,640 --> 00:13:50,719 Speaker 1: too attempting to look too real. Because we couldn't do 208 00:13:50,960 --> 00:13:55,800 Speaker 1: real many of the looks in the computer aspects of 209 00:13:55,840 --> 00:14:00,079 Speaker 1: Tron look the way they look because not because you 210 00:14:00,160 --> 00:14:02,480 Speaker 1: sat there and said, oh, wouldn't this look great in 211 00:14:02,679 --> 00:14:07,240 Speaker 1: wire frame instead of fully rendered. No, no, no, it 212 00:14:07,280 --> 00:14:12,640 Speaker 1: was wire frame because that's all we could do, and 213 00:14:12,840 --> 00:14:16,000 Speaker 1: it's phenomenal to to give a sense of scale. You're 214 00:14:16,040 --> 00:14:19,760 Speaker 1: talking about twenty four frames a second with film, every 215 00:14:19,760 --> 00:14:22,360 Speaker 1: single one of those frames being for the electronic world 216 00:14:22,360 --> 00:14:25,560 Speaker 1: being blown up so that animators can go in and 217 00:14:25,560 --> 00:14:29,840 Speaker 1: and hand draw elements onto those frames. Each of those 218 00:14:29,880 --> 00:14:33,760 Speaker 1: frames having to go through multiple exposures depending upon how 219 00:14:33,800 --> 00:14:36,720 Speaker 1: many colors you had, because each time you added a 220 00:14:36,720 --> 00:14:39,000 Speaker 1: different color, you had to do another love you had 221 00:14:39,000 --> 00:14:44,480 Speaker 1: to photograph everything all over again. Uh, you're you're talking frames. 222 00:14:44,800 --> 00:14:47,080 Speaker 1: If you start doing the math, if you're thinking fifty 223 00:14:47,160 --> 00:14:50,640 Speaker 1: three minutes more than that, because well, I don't want 224 00:14:50,680 --> 00:14:54,880 Speaker 1: to do the math right now, but I think, well, 225 00:14:56,120 --> 00:14:59,920 Speaker 1: this thing is, it's um if it goes through the math, 226 00:15:00,520 --> 00:15:03,840 Speaker 1: you say this can't be done because just doing the 227 00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:10,240 Speaker 1: colors on each frame, the average number of exposures was 228 00:15:10,480 --> 00:15:15,320 Speaker 1: I think eighteen. Some of the frames in Tron were 229 00:15:15,360 --> 00:15:21,720 Speaker 1: exposed thirty six times, and because everything had to be 230 00:15:21,800 --> 00:15:24,400 Speaker 1: held in focus, so that the blow ups were sharp, 231 00:15:24,440 --> 00:15:27,680 Speaker 1: and the blow ups are about the size of place. Matt. 232 00:15:29,680 --> 00:15:32,480 Speaker 1: There was no depth of field at seventy millimeter had 233 00:15:32,520 --> 00:15:36,320 Speaker 1: those light levels, So it wasn't those cameras, though seventy 234 00:15:36,320 --> 00:15:39,960 Speaker 1: millimeter cameras were used by David Lean to shoot Lawrence 235 00:15:40,000 --> 00:15:42,960 Speaker 1: of Arabia, and afterwards I really understood why, because in 236 00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:47,520 Speaker 1: the desert there's enough light. But for any of the 237 00:15:47,640 --> 00:15:52,560 Speaker 1: situations we were in, I had to shoot characters when 238 00:15:52,560 --> 00:15:55,000 Speaker 1: they were speaking to each other and over the shoulder shots. 239 00:15:55,200 --> 00:15:58,400 Speaker 1: They had to be shot on separate passes. So I 240 00:15:58,440 --> 00:16:01,720 Speaker 1: would have Bruce and the Ford round with no Jeff 241 00:16:01,880 --> 00:16:04,520 Speaker 1: that he was talking to looking at and I get 242 00:16:04,640 --> 00:16:06,520 Speaker 1: him in focus and then I get him out of 243 00:16:06,560 --> 00:16:08,480 Speaker 1: the frame, and then I bring in Jack and he'd 244 00:16:08,520 --> 00:16:12,120 Speaker 1: say his lines and I chewed them separately, each one 245 00:16:12,200 --> 00:16:17,120 Speaker 1: held in focus, and then they were put together. But yeah, 246 00:16:17,120 --> 00:16:22,080 Speaker 1: that the in animation, there's a thing called an exposure sheet, 247 00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:29,680 Speaker 1: and it's showed. It tells the animation cameraman what levels 248 00:16:29,680 --> 00:16:35,480 Speaker 1: are photographed and what order, and there there's about, I 249 00:16:35,520 --> 00:16:42,040 Speaker 1: don't know, three seconds of animation per exposure sheet. And 250 00:16:42,080 --> 00:16:45,280 Speaker 1: so what we did was we took those exposure sheets, 251 00:16:46,240 --> 00:16:50,240 Speaker 1: and instead of that sheet being filled in for three seconds, 252 00:16:50,280 --> 00:16:54,880 Speaker 1: which is seventy two frames, it was one frame in tron, 253 00:16:56,920 --> 00:17:01,600 Speaker 1: one exposure sheet per whole heat three seconds of animation 254 00:17:01,960 --> 00:17:06,199 Speaker 1: per individual frame. But again it was only possible to 255 00:17:06,280 --> 00:17:10,280 Speaker 1: put all of this together through animation. We were under 256 00:17:10,320 --> 00:17:13,760 Speaker 1: an extreme deadline, I heard all. I never was given 257 00:17:13,800 --> 00:17:16,679 Speaker 1: a real good reason by Disney why we were in 258 00:17:16,720 --> 00:17:20,600 Speaker 1: such a rush, but we were. And I've heard various 259 00:17:20,640 --> 00:17:23,800 Speaker 1: theories over the years that there was, you know, some 260 00:17:23,880 --> 00:17:28,760 Speaker 1: competition in the marketplace that summer, and so that's why 261 00:17:28,800 --> 00:17:31,560 Speaker 1: they wanted us to come out then. But sometimes I 262 00:17:31,600 --> 00:17:33,960 Speaker 1: wonder what would have happened if we had come out 263 00:17:34,040 --> 00:17:38,080 Speaker 1: the following winter, which made more sense, and that would 264 00:17:38,119 --> 00:17:40,600 Speaker 1: have given us six more months. I mean, it was 265 00:17:42,280 --> 00:17:48,280 Speaker 1: the deadline was so severe that, UM we took only 266 00:17:48,359 --> 00:17:53,439 Speaker 1: one day off every fourteen days. That was the legal limit. 267 00:17:53,960 --> 00:17:58,439 Speaker 1: So UM we would work thirteen days and then we 268 00:17:58,480 --> 00:18:00,880 Speaker 1: get one day off, and then we were thirteen days 269 00:18:00,880 --> 00:18:03,680 Speaker 1: in it one day off, and to complete the re 270 00:18:04,240 --> 00:18:09,440 Speaker 1: photography of all these blown up frames. UM. At the end, 271 00:18:09,480 --> 00:18:15,280 Speaker 1: I think we had twelve this division animation stands going 272 00:18:15,400 --> 00:18:19,600 Speaker 1: twenty four hours a day, three shifts on each and 273 00:18:23,840 --> 00:18:27,520 Speaker 1: the strain on the film in terms of getting it done. 274 00:18:27,640 --> 00:18:32,000 Speaker 1: From a director standpoint, that was kind of crazy. But 275 00:18:32,119 --> 00:18:35,959 Speaker 1: because I was new to this, you know, I just 276 00:18:36,119 --> 00:18:41,360 Speaker 1: accepted it. But the picture was after I shot all 277 00:18:41,359 --> 00:18:44,119 Speaker 1: the live action that the film had to be completed 278 00:18:44,760 --> 00:18:49,159 Speaker 1: in three weeks locked, so not one frame of the 279 00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:53,159 Speaker 1: movie could be changed. Frames could be taken out and removed, 280 00:18:53,240 --> 00:18:57,919 Speaker 1: but I couldn't change or add anything. So you know, 281 00:18:58,000 --> 00:19:01,240 Speaker 1: now directors get three or four months to live with 282 00:19:01,320 --> 00:19:03,960 Speaker 1: their movie in the editing room. I had three weeks 283 00:19:04,000 --> 00:19:07,280 Speaker 1: after that it was locked. And the thing that's interesting 284 00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:11,520 Speaker 1: is what I had to lock was actors in there 285 00:19:12,520 --> 00:19:17,120 Speaker 1: unaltered tron suits on an all black stage. And then 286 00:19:17,119 --> 00:19:21,800 Speaker 1: I had no computer animation yet because that wasn't done. 287 00:19:22,640 --> 00:19:25,359 Speaker 1: So when I locked the movie and said this is 288 00:19:25,359 --> 00:19:27,760 Speaker 1: the movie I'm making, there were no effects in it. 289 00:19:27,880 --> 00:19:30,280 Speaker 1: There were no colors in it. It was black and white. 290 00:19:30,680 --> 00:19:34,040 Speaker 1: Many of the scenes just had individual actors because you know, 291 00:19:34,080 --> 00:19:36,480 Speaker 1: it was one or the other, like I said, and 292 00:19:36,520 --> 00:19:41,040 Speaker 1: there was just storyboards are a little little brains that 293 00:19:41,200 --> 00:19:46,280 Speaker 1: said effect goes here a solar sailor. And at that 294 00:19:46,359 --> 00:19:49,360 Speaker 1: point I had to say Okay, I signed off. This 295 00:19:49,440 --> 00:19:53,760 Speaker 1: is the movie we're going to release from there on. 296 00:19:54,560 --> 00:19:57,679 Speaker 1: We just did nine months of filling it all in. 297 00:19:58,920 --> 00:20:07,320 Speaker 1: It's um yeah, in retrospect it was insane. But the 298 00:20:07,359 --> 00:20:13,800 Speaker 1: time compared to working on Tron to Drown Legacy, where 299 00:20:13,840 --> 00:20:17,040 Speaker 1: everything was composited in real time, where you could just 300 00:20:17,160 --> 00:20:20,560 Speaker 1: put the you know, computer animation together with the backgrounds, 301 00:20:20,560 --> 00:20:23,680 Speaker 1: together with the actors, and you know, you could make 302 00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:27,399 Speaker 1: changes up until like I don't know, a couple of 303 00:20:27,440 --> 00:20:32,280 Speaker 1: weeks before the movie was in theaters. Yeah, this is 304 00:20:32,280 --> 00:20:35,040 Speaker 1: a time where you can't even you can't even review 305 00:20:35,080 --> 00:20:38,000 Speaker 1: the footage immediately afterward obviously because you've got the filt 306 00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:41,280 Speaker 1: you have to process everything. So oh yeah, of course 307 00:20:41,480 --> 00:20:45,439 Speaker 1: there's no video tap. I mean you know, you shoot 308 00:20:45,480 --> 00:20:47,200 Speaker 1: it and it goes off to the lab and then 309 00:20:47,240 --> 00:20:52,120 Speaker 1: you see it the next day in dailies at lunchtime. Um. 310 00:20:52,160 --> 00:20:59,040 Speaker 1: There was also no time to do reshoots or reduce um. 311 00:20:59,080 --> 00:21:03,159 Speaker 1: I mean it was andred procedure on Tron Legacy that 312 00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:06,480 Speaker 1: when affects shots or shots were composited, that there would 313 00:21:06,520 --> 00:21:12,080 Speaker 1: be multiple reduce on each shot, every frame. It was 314 00:21:12,160 --> 00:21:14,840 Speaker 1: none of that. I mean we were flying blind and 315 00:21:14,880 --> 00:21:20,920 Speaker 1: then we had to commit um. Once in a while, 316 00:21:21,200 --> 00:21:25,119 Speaker 1: when something was really screwed up, I would get to 317 00:21:25,240 --> 00:21:30,480 Speaker 1: redo it or reshoot a recomposite. But often what we 318 00:21:30,560 --> 00:21:34,720 Speaker 1: did we say, Okay, there's a mistake. How can we 319 00:21:34,920 --> 00:21:39,680 Speaker 1: incorporate this mistake into the visuals or into the story, 320 00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:45,160 Speaker 1: and uh, we just went with it. So yeah, yeah, 321 00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:47,159 Speaker 1: I imagine that meant that you had a lot of 322 00:21:47,480 --> 00:21:50,359 Speaker 1: story boarding that was very precise from the very get go, 323 00:21:50,520 --> 00:21:54,600 Speaker 1: so that you could you could as the team of 324 00:21:54,720 --> 00:22:00,679 Speaker 1: talented people I had was unbelievable, once in a lifetime. 325 00:22:01,520 --> 00:22:05,119 Speaker 1: I it was one of the great joys of making 326 00:22:05,160 --> 00:22:11,119 Speaker 1: the film. And uh, yeah, incredible. I mean the team 327 00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:15,480 Speaker 1: I had from Listener Studios, my guys, some of whom 328 00:22:15,680 --> 00:22:19,199 Speaker 1: came from Disney originally and then left Disney work at 329 00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:23,600 Speaker 1: Listener Studios and then ironically they found themselves back at Disney. 330 00:22:23,640 --> 00:22:27,040 Speaker 1: But we storyboarded the whole film before we ever got 331 00:22:27,080 --> 00:22:30,400 Speaker 1: to Disney, and we did all this artwork for all 332 00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:33,280 Speaker 1: the different thing you know, aspects the m c P 333 00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:37,720 Speaker 1: and all Solar Sailor and on the life cycles. That 334 00:22:37,840 --> 00:22:41,359 Speaker 1: was all done, but it was done by us in house, 335 00:22:42,480 --> 00:22:45,600 Speaker 1: and it was it was interesting that then when I 336 00:22:45,600 --> 00:22:48,000 Speaker 1: got to Disney and they said, well, you know, if 337 00:22:48,040 --> 00:22:51,040 Speaker 1: you wanted, if you could have a dream, what would 338 00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:53,639 Speaker 1: it be. And I would say, well, I'd like Mobs 339 00:22:53,760 --> 00:22:57,400 Speaker 1: to go over these storyboards, and then I'd like sit 340 00:22:57,520 --> 00:23:01,480 Speaker 1: me to go over vehicle design, and both of them 341 00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:03,920 Speaker 1: to go over my costume designs, and I like Peter 342 00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:07,920 Speaker 1: Lloyd to go over production paintings. And so what what 343 00:23:08,359 --> 00:23:13,879 Speaker 1: worked out great is that we never approached these great 344 00:23:13,960 --> 00:23:16,200 Speaker 1: artists and said to him, we just have a blank 345 00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:19,280 Speaker 1: piece of paper and now I'm going to explain to 346 00:23:19,320 --> 00:23:22,280 Speaker 1: you what I'm trying to get to. It was. It 347 00:23:22,359 --> 00:23:24,919 Speaker 1: was so much better that we said, look, this is 348 00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:30,119 Speaker 1: as good as we can get this, and we're pretty 349 00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:33,200 Speaker 1: confident that, you know, there's more room to improve this. 350 00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:37,120 Speaker 1: And they never let us down. And I think they 351 00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:39,880 Speaker 1: really like that, you know, because they look at our 352 00:23:40,040 --> 00:23:42,159 Speaker 1: artwork and they go, yeah, this is really nice, but 353 00:23:42,359 --> 00:23:44,200 Speaker 1: this or why didn't you do that? Or why didn't 354 00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:46,639 Speaker 1: you do this? And Mobius would say, you know, you 355 00:23:46,680 --> 00:23:48,639 Speaker 1: could shoot this this way, but if you shot it 356 00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:51,439 Speaker 1: from this angle, and if you showed this, then the 357 00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:55,120 Speaker 1: audience wouldn't know that, and uh, yeah, it was amazing 358 00:23:56,320 --> 00:23:59,120 Speaker 1: that's that's it's awesome, and it's great that you already had, 359 00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:02,159 Speaker 1: you know, a nice idea to go in with and 360 00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:06,119 Speaker 1: not have to run the risk of asking an artist 361 00:24:06,280 --> 00:24:10,399 Speaker 1: to contribute and then say, oh, but that doesn't really 362 00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:12,760 Speaker 1: fit in what I was you know, it says that. 363 00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:15,520 Speaker 1: And the thing is I wasn't used to this part 364 00:24:15,560 --> 00:24:18,600 Speaker 1: of it either. The team that you know, my guys 365 00:24:18,920 --> 00:24:22,679 Speaker 1: at Listener Studios, we would throw stuff out all the 366 00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:25,120 Speaker 1: time and we would say, well, you know, that looked 367 00:24:25,119 --> 00:24:27,560 Speaker 1: good last week, but why don't we try this LFE 368 00:24:27,560 --> 00:24:31,760 Speaker 1: cycle design this week. And it was a learning curve 369 00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:34,600 Speaker 1: for me to work with you know, Sid and Mobius, 370 00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:40,760 Speaker 1: and they would say, no, this is it. There are changes, 371 00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:48,520 Speaker 1: there's no revisions. I'm not doing this again. That was amazing. 372 00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:51,119 Speaker 1: It would be at a little bit like walking up 373 00:24:51,119 --> 00:24:54,760 Speaker 1: to Da Vincian saying, yeah, yeah, it go that way. 374 00:24:54,920 --> 00:24:56,639 Speaker 1: Could you put some of the life cycle and he 375 00:24:56,720 --> 00:25:00,280 Speaker 1: hands it to you. You don't say to me, said 376 00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:05,040 Speaker 1: what about this? We do that? You know, you know 377 00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:07,600 Speaker 1: how about mud flaps And it's like, now, I don't 378 00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:12,040 Speaker 1: think so one thing that happened with the life cycles 379 00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:16,919 Speaker 1: I will interject this and it never bothered said, is 380 00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:21,439 Speaker 1: that we sent the life cycles to MAGI, which was 381 00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:25,640 Speaker 1: Phil Middleman's company UM in New York. We had three 382 00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:29,240 Speaker 1: computer companies. One was in New York State and that's 383 00:25:29,240 --> 00:25:31,600 Speaker 1: where Chris Wedge used to work, who went on to 384 00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:36,280 Speaker 1: Great Blue Sky Studios and do ice age. And then 385 00:25:36,280 --> 00:25:38,840 Speaker 1: we had a company out here called Triple I, where 386 00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:43,160 Speaker 1: Richard Taylor was, and then we also used Robert Abeles 387 00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:47,040 Speaker 1: company who was in Hollywood. But when I sent the 388 00:25:47,119 --> 00:25:54,280 Speaker 1: first LFE cycle drawings that said to uh, Magi, they said, 389 00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:59,760 Speaker 1: we can't do this. The curves are too complex. We 390 00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:04,680 Speaker 1: render this, we don't have enough you know, power, it 391 00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:08,240 Speaker 1: won't work. And I knew that, you know, it was 392 00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:12,639 Speaker 1: an incredible design. We all loved it, and so I 393 00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:15,440 Speaker 1: thought about it this I remember this was over a weekend, 394 00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:18,919 Speaker 1: some Sunday, and so then I said, how do I 395 00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:22,959 Speaker 1: keep the integrity of Sid's designed but simplify it for 396 00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:25,600 Speaker 1: the computer? And already you gotta imagine, it was already 397 00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:29,760 Speaker 1: really simple in terms of color and shading. And then I, 398 00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:31,399 Speaker 1: I don't know how where I got this idea, but 399 00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:34,399 Speaker 1: I got the idea of what if you took the bike, 400 00:26:35,359 --> 00:26:38,879 Speaker 1: which was very three d and squeezed parts of it 401 00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:43,520 Speaker 1: between two pieces of glass. To imagine that squeezing it 402 00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:46,240 Speaker 1: between two pieces of glass. So if you look at 403 00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:49,040 Speaker 1: it from the side, what I did was I kept 404 00:26:49,080 --> 00:26:52,960 Speaker 1: that faring in the front the way SID designed it, 405 00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:58,320 Speaker 1: but I flattened everything else that was also full of 406 00:26:58,359 --> 00:27:01,040 Speaker 1: all these compound curves, just like I was pressing a 407 00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:04,359 Speaker 1: piece of glass against it, and that did it. We 408 00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:08,639 Speaker 1: got enough of the complexity out of it so that 409 00:27:08,680 --> 00:27:10,920 Speaker 1: the computer guys could do it. And by the way, 410 00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:15,480 Speaker 1: I want to say one thing about Magi that it 411 00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:19,240 Speaker 1: was pretty funny, which is that they're One of the 412 00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:24,919 Speaker 1: main reasons their tanks in the first Tron movie is 413 00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:29,200 Speaker 1: because when I first went to Magi, which was really 414 00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:33,080 Speaker 1: early on, I was keeping track of their capabilities, like 415 00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:38,800 Speaker 1: years before we ever Matron. Their first major contract was 416 00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:43,760 Speaker 1: with the military to do tank simulations. This was all 417 00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:47,399 Speaker 1: the way back in the mid seventies. This was totally 418 00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:52,440 Speaker 1: like far out crazy stuff, you know, darkas stuff, and 419 00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:55,640 Speaker 1: mag I was doing, you know, it looked like very 420 00:27:55,680 --> 00:28:00,159 Speaker 1: crude video games, but it was tank oriented. So and 421 00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:02,240 Speaker 1: then I at some point came to them and said, 422 00:28:02,280 --> 00:28:06,000 Speaker 1: if you know, if these chases vehicles are tanks. You're 423 00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:08,840 Speaker 1: going to be able to, you know, do a lot 424 00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:12,359 Speaker 1: of this pretty effectively because of your tank experience. And 425 00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:16,560 Speaker 1: they said, yeah, so that's why you know the tanks 426 00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:31,000 Speaker 1: worked out so well. Well, I'm I'm curious now kind 427 00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:35,080 Speaker 1: of stepping back from the the meta tech of how 428 00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:37,720 Speaker 1: the movie came to be and kind of diving into 429 00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:41,880 Speaker 1: the the actual content of the film itself. This is 430 00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:45,120 Speaker 1: a really big treat for me because not only do 431 00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:49,120 Speaker 1: I get to talk about filmmaking approaches and technology that 432 00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:51,280 Speaker 1: I totally geek out about, but I can also talk 433 00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:55,800 Speaker 1: about the mythology of Tron, which is incredible. It's very 434 00:28:55,960 --> 00:28:59,000 Speaker 1: prescient in a lot of ways that I'm not even 435 00:28:59,040 --> 00:29:02,680 Speaker 1: certain that you guys were aware of at the time, 436 00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:06,880 Speaker 1: Like things that that to me became really big conversation 437 00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:10,240 Speaker 1: points a decade or more further out from when the 438 00:29:10,280 --> 00:29:13,640 Speaker 1: film came out. Oh yeah, I mean, I'll tell you 439 00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:17,920 Speaker 1: something that will boil your mind. I had a revelation 440 00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:22,160 Speaker 1: about the mythology of Tron the first movie two days ago. 441 00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:29,760 Speaker 1: I'm serious, because in discussions about Tron two and discussions 442 00:29:29,800 --> 00:29:32,800 Speaker 1: about you know, theoretical discussions about what the Tron three 443 00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:36,200 Speaker 1: would be all of a sudden, it sheds light all 444 00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:39,719 Speaker 1: the way back to the first film, and I realized, oh, 445 00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:42,400 Speaker 1: this is why I was doing that. And I never 446 00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:48,200 Speaker 1: really understood that that clearly until you know, so, yeah, 447 00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:53,400 Speaker 1: it's that aspect of it. It's funny because I like 448 00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:57,360 Speaker 1: to talk about the technical achievement of Tron and the 449 00:29:57,480 --> 00:30:01,760 Speaker 1: incredible work and all the talented people that worked on it, 450 00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:05,880 Speaker 1: and I mean talked about unsung heroes, you know, Richard 451 00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:09,320 Speaker 1: with Richard Taylor and Bill Kroyer did and and there 452 00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:11,640 Speaker 1: the teams and all the three companies. I could go 453 00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:15,080 Speaker 1: on all day about how great that whole group was. 454 00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:18,400 Speaker 1: But then people go, see, listener, he's such a geek. 455 00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:22,720 Speaker 1: You know, he doesn't love story or characters. And that's 456 00:30:22,760 --> 00:30:26,920 Speaker 1: not true at all. I mean, what what actually got 457 00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:31,600 Speaker 1: Tron gave me the energy to make Tron was not 458 00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:38,880 Speaker 1: the geeky energy of computer graphics. What what motivated me 459 00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:41,280 Speaker 1: for years and made me put everything on the line 460 00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:46,360 Speaker 1: were the characters. And it was that story in particular. 461 00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:50,240 Speaker 1: And then I got so excited because I saw that 462 00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:52,880 Speaker 1: there was a chance we could actually do it with 463 00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:59,440 Speaker 1: this technology. But looking back at it, um I have 464 00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:04,560 Speaker 1: to say it, you know, I was. I was inspired 465 00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:08,760 Speaker 1: by the experiences of my own life up to that point, 466 00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:13,000 Speaker 1: even though I was young, and the story works on 467 00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:19,520 Speaker 1: many levels for me personally. Um, so yeah, I care 468 00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:25,680 Speaker 1: about that pretty deeply. I would say, well, it's the 469 00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:30,160 Speaker 1: effects of the film are phenomenal and I love them. 470 00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:33,760 Speaker 1: But as people have pointed out numerous times over the years, 471 00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:37,719 Speaker 1: effects don't make a story. And if you rely too 472 00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:44,600 Speaker 1: heavily upon the the bedazzle of effects and you sacrifice 473 00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:48,360 Speaker 1: the story, then you know, I don't find myself talking 474 00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:51,640 Speaker 1: about those films later on, right, I don't know what 475 00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:54,960 Speaker 1: you mean. There's nothing but nothing to hang on. Yeah, 476 00:31:55,080 --> 00:32:00,120 Speaker 1: I know, well, they don't resonate past to the know, 477 00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:05,080 Speaker 1: the moment. The thing that I've been thinking about and 478 00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:10,200 Speaker 1: the revelation I just had recently, is that if you 479 00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:13,840 Speaker 1: look at if you look at a movie like Star 480 00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:21,760 Speaker 1: Wars or Um or an Avatar or Um, Wonder Woman 481 00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:25,760 Speaker 1: or four thor is a good example, the worlds of 482 00:32:25,760 --> 00:32:31,760 Speaker 1: those films are epic. I mean, there's nothing more epic 483 00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:36,600 Speaker 1: than Nordic mythology and spaces as epic as it gets, 484 00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:40,920 Speaker 1: and it's infinity, it's everything. So what happens in those 485 00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:45,520 Speaker 1: films is that Star Wars or a thor what happens 486 00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:52,840 Speaker 1: is that you get to have comedic characters because that 487 00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:57,880 Speaker 1: they make the epic grandeur of the setting relatable. So 488 00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:01,120 Speaker 1: you know, it's called Star Wars, which is about as 489 00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:03,200 Speaker 1: epic a title as you could ever come up with. 490 00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:06,480 Speaker 1: But then you know, Luke is kind of a goofy 491 00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:11,440 Speaker 1: farm boy with his you know and his robot friends 492 00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:15,520 Speaker 1: are you know, pretty funny. So you know, that's how 493 00:33:15,560 --> 00:33:18,440 Speaker 1: we relate to the epic. And the what I'm getting 494 00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:22,960 Speaker 1: at where this connects with Tron is that Tron has 495 00:33:23,320 --> 00:33:26,600 Speaker 1: is kind of the opposite formula if you think about it, 496 00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:31,800 Speaker 1: because when we did Tron one, all there was was 497 00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:36,560 Speaker 1: you know, pong games, and no one looks at a 498 00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:41,480 Speaker 1: palm game and says this is epic. You know, people 499 00:33:41,520 --> 00:33:43,680 Speaker 1: stand out at night and look at the stars and 500 00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:45,880 Speaker 1: say this is epic, but they don't stand in front 501 00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:48,800 Speaker 1: of a palm game in a bar and you know, 502 00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:53,120 Speaker 1: look at the the pongk bar table and say this 503 00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:57,120 Speaker 1: is epic. So what we did was we kind of 504 00:33:57,120 --> 00:33:59,200 Speaker 1: with the character of Flynn, we added it's kind of 505 00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:05,880 Speaker 1: an epic character. Two, a non epic world. And I 506 00:34:05,960 --> 00:34:09,560 Speaker 1: think that for the people that struggled with Tron, and 507 00:34:09,640 --> 00:34:13,560 Speaker 1: some people still do and say, you know, I don't 508 00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:15,920 Speaker 1: get that movie. Why are people excited about it? I 509 00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:19,600 Speaker 1: think what what they struggle with, even though they wouldn't 510 00:34:19,640 --> 00:34:23,160 Speaker 1: necessarily say it, is they struggle with the idea that 511 00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:28,640 Speaker 1: something epic can come and significant or grand can come 512 00:34:28,680 --> 00:34:32,480 Speaker 1: out of something that isn't well. And and to kind 513 00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:35,920 Speaker 1: of continue your your point, uh, you know, if you 514 00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:38,920 Speaker 1: look at it on on the scale of something like 515 00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:42,360 Speaker 1: Star Wars or thor you're talking about this cosmological scale, 516 00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:45,360 Speaker 1: and when you're talking about Tron, you're talking about diving 517 00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:51,200 Speaker 1: into a virtual space that's confined within a very you know, 518 00:34:51,600 --> 00:34:56,200 Speaker 1: limited physical space. It's within a computer. It's almost like 519 00:34:56,239 --> 00:34:59,520 Speaker 1: you're literally going as small scale as you can get. 520 00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:02,399 Speaker 1: We're talking about information, not even a physical thing at 521 00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:05,960 Speaker 1: this point, right. Well, that's that's I think one of 522 00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:11,600 Speaker 1: the reasons people are drawn to take sort of sanctuary 523 00:35:11,920 --> 00:35:15,080 Speaker 1: in the digital world, and we do it all the time, 524 00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:21,080 Speaker 1: is because we control it. It's finite. You know, even 525 00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:24,480 Speaker 1: though it's gotten as complex as it is compared to 526 00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:28,160 Speaker 1: the universe, it still feels like it's ours. We can 527 00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:31,640 Speaker 1: manage it, we put it together, we can alter it. 528 00:35:32,280 --> 00:35:36,279 Speaker 1: But you know, the universe, We're getting really bad at 529 00:35:36,400 --> 00:35:44,160 Speaker 1: dealing with the universe. And so I think, well, it's 530 00:35:44,200 --> 00:35:50,560 Speaker 1: also this is all very generational because my generation traditionally, 531 00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:56,279 Speaker 1: and certainly people older than me just I can't tell you. 532 00:35:56,320 --> 00:35:58,839 Speaker 1: I don't know how old you are, but I'm sure 533 00:35:58,880 --> 00:36:04,000 Speaker 1: you're younger than me. People were terrified of computers, just terrified, 534 00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:12,480 Speaker 1: and Disney was terrified, every you know, everybody was and say, 535 00:36:12,520 --> 00:36:14,480 Speaker 1: it's like gelling. People come along and they say, well 536 00:36:14,520 --> 00:36:18,279 Speaker 1: that this scares the hell out of my parents. What 537 00:36:18,440 --> 00:36:23,600 Speaker 1: power is actually here that does that? A little bit like, yeah, 538 00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:27,000 Speaker 1: if dad has a problem understanding this and it freaks 539 00:36:27,040 --> 00:36:29,080 Speaker 1: them out, I got to learn what this is about. 540 00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:33,160 Speaker 1: And so the idea that something significant was going to 541 00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:38,759 Speaker 1: come out of these you know, these limited worlds with 542 00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:43,799 Speaker 1: this you know, information storage and manipulation that was embraced 543 00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:48,640 Speaker 1: by the next generation, but it was, you know, none 544 00:36:48,719 --> 00:36:54,640 Speaker 1: of something that older people wanted to accept, and they 545 00:36:54,719 --> 00:37:01,200 Speaker 1: created this weird schism over the years with tron. I mean, 546 00:37:01,440 --> 00:37:04,560 Speaker 1: you know, some people said, oh my god, you know 547 00:37:04,640 --> 00:37:08,719 Speaker 1: how this is terrible If things go in this direction, 548 00:37:09,360 --> 00:37:12,640 Speaker 1: and then twenty years later they were doing ads for 549 00:37:12,680 --> 00:37:19,640 Speaker 1: Apple computers and I've I've seen that arc and people 550 00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:24,080 Speaker 1: don't change, generations change, and um. The other thing, as 551 00:37:24,080 --> 00:37:28,200 Speaker 1: long as I'm thinking down this avenue is that I 552 00:37:28,239 --> 00:37:34,440 Speaker 1: think the fundamental change with the threat of computers at 553 00:37:34,480 --> 00:37:37,840 Speaker 1: the time, you know, everybody was worried about, oh, you know, 554 00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:40,040 Speaker 1: the computers are going to take my personal data and 555 00:37:40,040 --> 00:37:41,960 Speaker 1: they're going to use it against me. I'm gonna lose 556 00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:48,080 Speaker 1: my privacy. And who could have predicted that they would 557 00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:51,680 Speaker 1: take all our personal data but they wouldn't have to 558 00:37:51,719 --> 00:37:54,680 Speaker 1: battle us for it. We would line up to hand 559 00:37:54,719 --> 00:37:59,719 Speaker 1: it over. It's called Facebook, okay, it's called you know 560 00:38:00,520 --> 00:38:04,480 Speaker 1: everything else that you know wants our credit card number. 561 00:38:05,160 --> 00:38:10,440 Speaker 1: And so that has been you know about No one 562 00:38:10,520 --> 00:38:15,359 Speaker 1: anticipated that, no one back then, and Trom didn't anticipate 563 00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:19,080 Speaker 1: that either that. You know, I talked to some of 564 00:38:19,120 --> 00:38:22,040 Speaker 1: the heaviest people in the field of computers back then, 565 00:38:22,920 --> 00:38:26,239 Speaker 1: and you know, they would give me notes and some 566 00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:29,520 Speaker 1: of them would give me story suggestions, but no one 567 00:38:29,560 --> 00:38:32,319 Speaker 1: ever gave me a note that said, you know, we're 568 00:38:32,360 --> 00:38:35,640 Speaker 1: going to hand It's not that we're gonna fear it 569 00:38:35,719 --> 00:38:38,680 Speaker 1: and battle it. We're gonna run towards it as fast 570 00:38:38,719 --> 00:38:43,560 Speaker 1: as we can. And it's and I've spent a lot 571 00:38:43,600 --> 00:38:46,600 Speaker 1: of time thinking about how that really happened or on 572 00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:50,120 Speaker 1: what that really means, what are the repercussions of that? 573 00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:54,280 Speaker 1: And what I came away with on that is that 574 00:38:54,280 --> 00:38:59,960 Speaker 1: that computers put us, put the users in a situation 575 00:39:00,200 --> 00:39:04,120 Speaker 1: where they said, look, we'll take care of the cognitive problems, 576 00:39:04,160 --> 00:39:09,040 Speaker 1: so you're liberated from that, and what what you can 577 00:39:09,080 --> 00:39:13,759 Speaker 1: do with your extra time is indulge your feelings, and 578 00:39:13,880 --> 00:39:16,400 Speaker 1: you know, because that's what we like to do. You know. 579 00:39:17,600 --> 00:39:20,319 Speaker 1: We we get adding machines so we don't have to 580 00:39:20,360 --> 00:39:23,319 Speaker 1: do the math. So then we can, you know, go 581 00:39:23,400 --> 00:39:25,920 Speaker 1: to the movies instead of doing the math, and we 582 00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:31,040 Speaker 1: can enjoy our emotions and feelings. And that has continued 583 00:39:31,760 --> 00:39:34,960 Speaker 1: to advance. You know. It used to be like, Okay, 584 00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:37,160 Speaker 1: I'm not going to learn too much math because I 585 00:39:37,200 --> 00:39:39,920 Speaker 1: have an adding machine, and you know, now I have 586 00:39:40,040 --> 00:39:43,120 Speaker 1: spell check, well, you know, and then it's like, well 587 00:39:43,239 --> 00:39:45,200 Speaker 1: I don't pretty soon I'm not even gonna have to 588 00:39:45,280 --> 00:39:50,919 Speaker 1: drive my car drive itself. And so all these cognitive 589 00:39:51,000 --> 00:39:55,920 Speaker 1: things are being you know, we're so called being liberated 590 00:39:56,000 --> 00:40:01,680 Speaker 1: from and then we're just all about our feelings. And 591 00:40:02,680 --> 00:40:05,640 Speaker 1: you know, we wanted that for a long time. But 592 00:40:06,120 --> 00:40:11,240 Speaker 1: in the past, people humanity dreamt about it the other way. 593 00:40:11,480 --> 00:40:16,400 Speaker 1: You know, for hundreds of years, people philosophers dreamt of 594 00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:20,239 Speaker 1: a world that was guided by reason because it was 595 00:40:20,360 --> 00:40:24,960 Speaker 1: too much about people's feelings. And you know, science and 596 00:40:25,000 --> 00:40:29,280 Speaker 1: philosophy advanced so we could get to this point where 597 00:40:29,400 --> 00:40:36,960 Speaker 1: reason sort of determined our our fate because reason is 598 00:40:37,760 --> 00:40:43,200 Speaker 1: connected to underlying truth that endures. That's why, that's what 599 00:40:43,360 --> 00:40:47,960 Speaker 1: reason is. But emotions don't work that way, you know. 600 00:40:48,520 --> 00:40:56,080 Speaker 1: You can I think that it's worth, you know, dying 601 00:40:56,400 --> 00:41:00,239 Speaker 1: one moment for something, you know, if I don't get 602 00:41:00,480 --> 00:41:03,760 Speaker 1: invited to the prom I should you be better off dead? 603 00:41:04,480 --> 00:41:08,319 Speaker 1: And then a month later you could forget that you 604 00:41:08,400 --> 00:41:12,959 Speaker 1: ever felt that way. And so now we're we're kind 605 00:41:12,960 --> 00:41:17,360 Speaker 1: of living in the age of Trump where I'm digressing, 606 00:41:17,400 --> 00:41:19,440 Speaker 1: I know, but we're living in the age of Trump. 607 00:41:20,000 --> 00:41:24,880 Speaker 1: We're it's all about these feelings every day, and we 608 00:41:24,960 --> 00:41:28,680 Speaker 1: have we have the way of of expressing those feelings 609 00:41:28,719 --> 00:41:33,719 Speaker 1: to a larger audience than ever before, instantaneously as soon 610 00:41:33,800 --> 00:41:37,960 Speaker 1: as we feel you know, so the cognitive power of 611 00:41:38,040 --> 00:41:44,720 Speaker 1: computers has ironically completely liberated our emotional feely side. Touchy 612 00:41:44,800 --> 00:41:50,279 Speaker 1: feely side gets to send out every thought in his 613 00:41:50,480 --> 00:41:57,920 Speaker 1: head because of Twitter whenever, whenever, whenever a disgruntled employee 614 00:41:57,920 --> 00:42:02,840 Speaker 1: of Twitter isn't deleting his account. Yeah, so this weird 615 00:42:02,920 --> 00:42:07,440 Speaker 1: relationship we've developed with technology, and I go all the 616 00:42:07,480 --> 00:42:10,440 Speaker 1: way back to you know, the early chron days, and 617 00:42:10,520 --> 00:42:13,680 Speaker 1: I can see what we thought then, and I can 618 00:42:13,840 --> 00:42:17,640 Speaker 1: you know, I've experienced the arc you know, from there 619 00:42:17,680 --> 00:42:21,440 Speaker 1: to hear it's it's really interesting. Well, what's fascinating to 620 00:42:21,480 --> 00:42:23,680 Speaker 1: me is that, you know, you talked about this this 621 00:42:23,840 --> 00:42:27,960 Speaker 1: thing about computers that were very scary to one generation 622 00:42:28,160 --> 00:42:31,759 Speaker 1: and very promising to the next. Uh. My background is, 623 00:42:31,800 --> 00:42:35,600 Speaker 1: interestingly for me anyway, not not in technology. My background, 624 00:42:35,680 --> 00:42:39,839 Speaker 1: my scholarly background, was in medieval literature and history. And 625 00:42:39,880 --> 00:42:42,320 Speaker 1: the funny thing is you see the exact same story 626 00:42:42,400 --> 00:42:46,560 Speaker 1: play out upon the invention of the Guttenberg Press, because 627 00:42:46,560 --> 00:42:52,959 Speaker 1: it was taking taking books away from monks, you know exactly. Yeah, 628 00:42:52,960 --> 00:42:55,640 Speaker 1: instead of instead of it being the church that was 629 00:42:55,760 --> 00:42:59,640 Speaker 1: completely in charge of creating manuscripts and books, and now 630 00:42:59,719 --> 00:43:02,759 Speaker 1: be aim the domain of printers who could produce them 631 00:43:02,800 --> 00:43:05,160 Speaker 1: much more quickly, which meant that people could actually own 632 00:43:05,239 --> 00:43:08,839 Speaker 1: books for the first time because they weren't prohibitively expensive, 633 00:43:09,360 --> 00:43:13,200 Speaker 1: and that transformed the Renaissance. Really, you could argue that 634 00:43:13,239 --> 00:43:18,279 Speaker 1: was an enormous inforce on it, just as computers have 635 00:43:18,360 --> 00:43:24,240 Speaker 1: been granted a much more accelerated but a similar transformative 636 00:43:24,719 --> 00:43:29,360 Speaker 1: element in our own society. So this kind of knowing, 637 00:43:29,400 --> 00:43:31,000 Speaker 1: this sort of stuff, I mean, granted, a lot of 638 00:43:31,000 --> 00:43:33,080 Speaker 1: this stuff kind of evolved over the years since Tron 639 00:43:33,120 --> 00:43:35,600 Speaker 1: has come out, and in some ways can change the 640 00:43:35,640 --> 00:43:38,040 Speaker 1: way we view Tron, which I actually I think that's 641 00:43:38,080 --> 00:43:41,239 Speaker 1: great for any piece of art, right that you can 642 00:43:41,280 --> 00:43:43,719 Speaker 1: revisit that piece of art and it means something new 643 00:43:43,760 --> 00:43:47,480 Speaker 1: to you based upon your experiences and the way the 644 00:43:47,480 --> 00:43:49,759 Speaker 1: world has changed. That's one of the one of the 645 00:43:49,840 --> 00:43:55,640 Speaker 1: things window into how what a relationship was with all 646 00:43:55,680 --> 00:43:59,560 Speaker 1: of those things, the things of the moment and eternal 647 00:43:59,680 --> 00:44:03,839 Speaker 1: thing at that moment in time, you know. I mean, 648 00:44:04,200 --> 00:44:09,040 Speaker 1: I'll tell you another sort of past and future mechanism 649 00:44:09,200 --> 00:44:14,479 Speaker 1: that I thought about primarily after I made Tron, which 650 00:44:14,520 --> 00:44:18,120 Speaker 1: is that you know, the character of Flynn is kind 651 00:44:18,160 --> 00:44:21,239 Speaker 1: of you know, afterwards, I did quite a bit of 652 00:44:21,239 --> 00:44:25,560 Speaker 1: study about the archetype of the shaman character and what 653 00:44:25,640 --> 00:44:29,880 Speaker 1: it what does the shaman character do traditionally And traditionally 654 00:44:30,280 --> 00:44:36,920 Speaker 1: he he heals a person who has lost their spirit 655 00:44:37,400 --> 00:44:41,400 Speaker 1: because their spirit has gone into you know, the nether world, 656 00:44:41,480 --> 00:44:44,399 Speaker 1: the spirit world, and that is why the person here 657 00:44:44,480 --> 00:44:49,439 Speaker 1: is sick. And the shaman has the power to crossover 658 00:44:49,640 --> 00:44:53,200 Speaker 1: into the spirit world. And then because he has powers there, 659 00:44:53,480 --> 00:44:59,200 Speaker 1: he can retrieve the spirit of his friend, bring it 660 00:44:59,239 --> 00:45:02,080 Speaker 1: back to this world and then put the two together. 661 00:45:02,880 --> 00:45:05,920 Speaker 1: And I'm reading about this, like, you know, specifics about 662 00:45:05,960 --> 00:45:09,840 Speaker 1: this twenty years later, and and then I'm thinking about 663 00:45:09,920 --> 00:45:14,680 Speaker 1: what Flynn did in the first movie Alan and you know, 664 00:45:14,760 --> 00:45:18,160 Speaker 1: Laura come to him and they're sick. Why because they've 665 00:45:18,200 --> 00:45:23,400 Speaker 1: lost their spirit, They've lost their programs and it's making 666 00:45:23,480 --> 00:45:27,719 Speaker 1: them sick. And he has lost information too. And then 667 00:45:27,719 --> 00:45:32,239 Speaker 1: he ends up crossing over into the digital realm and 668 00:45:32,760 --> 00:45:37,319 Speaker 1: you know what does he do there? He freeze them 669 00:45:37,400 --> 00:45:41,960 Speaker 1: up so that they can now get in touch the 670 00:45:42,120 --> 00:45:45,120 Speaker 1: you know, the information that is the Tron program can 671 00:45:45,160 --> 00:45:47,319 Speaker 1: get in touch with the user can get in touch 672 00:45:47,400 --> 00:45:51,319 Speaker 1: with it, and you know, and then he comes back 673 00:45:51,360 --> 00:45:54,120 Speaker 1: to this world and I thought, you know, this is 674 00:45:54,520 --> 00:45:57,960 Speaker 1: this is pretty crazy that it's the role of the shaman, 675 00:45:58,440 --> 00:46:02,640 Speaker 1: but in a in a digital environment, and I wasn't 676 00:46:02,680 --> 00:46:05,160 Speaker 1: really thinking about that when I came up with it. 677 00:46:05,960 --> 00:46:07,840 Speaker 1: And not only that, but a role of a shaman, 678 00:46:07,880 --> 00:46:11,919 Speaker 1: a shaman taking the role of essentially our protagonist, uh, 679 00:46:11,960 --> 00:46:14,920 Speaker 1: the hero of the story, the one who makes the 680 00:46:15,280 --> 00:46:17,799 Speaker 1: who defeats the bad guy at the end. You know, 681 00:46:17,840 --> 00:46:22,399 Speaker 1: we have Tron, but we follow Flynn. Obviously, that makes 682 00:46:22,400 --> 00:46:25,240 Speaker 1: sense because Flynn is from our world, so we're seeing 683 00:46:25,280 --> 00:46:28,320 Speaker 1: the world of Tron through his eyes. That's very necessary 684 00:46:28,360 --> 00:46:31,480 Speaker 1: for the grounding of that for the audience. But it 685 00:46:31,560 --> 00:46:35,000 Speaker 1: is also interesting that that in a traditional narrative, we 686 00:46:35,040 --> 00:46:37,719 Speaker 1: would be following the story of Tron right you start, 687 00:46:37,760 --> 00:46:39,800 Speaker 1: you follow the story of the guy who slays the 688 00:46:39,880 --> 00:46:43,360 Speaker 1: dragon at the end. Uh. And so instead we're following 689 00:46:43,760 --> 00:46:49,480 Speaker 1: the character that enables that to happen. And it's pretty 690 00:46:49,480 --> 00:46:53,160 Speaker 1: funny that moment when at the end of Tron where 691 00:46:53,239 --> 00:46:57,040 Speaker 1: she says, you know, Flynn really did it, and Tron 692 00:46:57,120 --> 00:47:00,759 Speaker 1: doesn't know that, you know, he managed to overcome the 693 00:47:00,840 --> 00:47:04,319 Speaker 1: m c P because of what Flynn did. That that 694 00:47:04,440 --> 00:47:08,719 Speaker 1: happened on a whole, whole dimensional level above his head literally, 695 00:47:09,280 --> 00:47:11,760 Speaker 1: and he looks at her and he goes, oh, okay, 696 00:47:12,080 --> 00:47:16,440 Speaker 1: you really know what to do with that information? Yeah, 697 00:47:16,920 --> 00:47:19,719 Speaker 1: you know, And I just this thought popped into my head, 698 00:47:19,760 --> 00:47:22,880 Speaker 1: which is that according to this definition of what a 699 00:47:22,920 --> 00:47:30,040 Speaker 1: shaman is, you could almost say that, um Wizard of 700 00:47:30,080 --> 00:47:36,680 Speaker 1: Oz is a shaman story that Judy Garland's character, she 701 00:47:37,239 --> 00:47:39,840 Speaker 1: crosses over to the other world and what does she do. 702 00:47:40,080 --> 00:47:42,920 Speaker 1: She helps her friends become whole. She gets them a 703 00:47:43,000 --> 00:47:49,640 Speaker 1: hard brain. It's a very similar mechanism. Absolutely. Yeah, it's 704 00:47:49,719 --> 00:47:52,920 Speaker 1: a interesting I had not even thought of that, but 705 00:47:52,960 --> 00:47:56,840 Speaker 1: that is a very a very apt, uh comparison, especially 706 00:47:56,880 --> 00:48:01,200 Speaker 1: since Dorothy again is going into a worldly unlike our own, 707 00:48:01,239 --> 00:48:03,480 Speaker 1: that has its own rules, has its own history. I 708 00:48:03,600 --> 00:48:13,680 Speaker 1: never thought of Dorothy as a shaman, but she is. Yeah. Well, 709 00:48:14,000 --> 00:48:16,360 Speaker 1: I have another question for you. This is one that 710 00:48:16,360 --> 00:48:20,240 Speaker 1: that not only I need to know, but my producer 711 00:48:20,360 --> 00:48:24,360 Speaker 1: Ramsey needs to know, and that is Master Control Program 712 00:48:24,440 --> 00:48:27,359 Speaker 1: m c P. One one of the great villains of 713 00:48:27,440 --> 00:48:32,680 Speaker 1: science fiction. What what what was? Did you have any 714 00:48:32,719 --> 00:48:37,239 Speaker 1: specific inspirations for m c P, perhaps with any other 715 00:48:37,560 --> 00:48:39,840 Speaker 1: organizations that might have three letters in their name or 716 00:48:39,840 --> 00:48:44,279 Speaker 1: anything along those lines, or from the beginning, he was 717 00:48:44,719 --> 00:48:50,000 Speaker 1: always machine like and when I want to, and there 718 00:48:50,160 --> 00:48:53,520 Speaker 1: was a sort of Wizard of Oz component to him too, 719 00:48:53,960 --> 00:48:57,840 Speaker 1: speaking Wizard of Oz, because you know, he was smoking 720 00:48:57,920 --> 00:49:01,240 Speaker 1: mirrors and in the end he was that know a little. 721 00:49:01,440 --> 00:49:05,759 Speaker 1: It all started with that little chess player. But um, 722 00:49:05,880 --> 00:49:10,719 Speaker 1: when I went to Triple I, they had one of 723 00:49:10,760 --> 00:49:14,880 Speaker 1: the three computer companies, they had created a juggling human 724 00:49:15,200 --> 00:49:19,840 Speaker 1: character wearing a top hat who um looked very human. 725 00:49:19,880 --> 00:49:22,880 Speaker 1: He barely moved. He just stood in one position and 726 00:49:23,000 --> 00:49:26,280 Speaker 1: his arms moved and he juggled a bunch of balls 727 00:49:26,440 --> 00:49:31,239 Speaker 1: and uh, but he didn't speak or anything like that. 728 00:49:31,520 --> 00:49:34,520 Speaker 1: And I don't think he ever moved his speed either. 729 00:49:35,040 --> 00:49:39,520 Speaker 1: And then I saw that I saw this, This image 730 00:49:39,520 --> 00:49:42,520 Speaker 1: popped into my head that like the Wizard of Oz, 731 00:49:42,719 --> 00:49:46,719 Speaker 1: we could have his face on this machine like exterior 732 00:49:46,800 --> 00:49:50,360 Speaker 1: that we had been creating for the m c P. 733 00:49:50,840 --> 00:49:55,400 Speaker 1: And uh. But then we couldn't render it in flesh 734 00:49:55,520 --> 00:49:58,200 Speaker 1: tones and have it speak because we just didn't have 735 00:49:58,320 --> 00:50:01,920 Speaker 1: enough computing power. So the only way we could actually 736 00:50:02,080 --> 00:50:06,400 Speaker 1: do it was in wire frame. So you know, we 737 00:50:06,400 --> 00:50:10,000 Speaker 1: we recorded David Warner's voice doing it, and then we 738 00:50:10,080 --> 00:50:12,840 Speaker 1: altered his voice, and then we you know, did what 739 00:50:13,000 --> 00:50:16,120 Speaker 1: animators have always done is sync up the images, you know, 740 00:50:16,239 --> 00:50:21,240 Speaker 1: the face with the soundtrack and the MVP is really 741 00:50:21,760 --> 00:50:27,120 Speaker 1: I guess the first talking had the first c G 742 00:50:27,600 --> 00:50:32,400 Speaker 1: character that ever was. And I always liked the idea 743 00:50:32,480 --> 00:50:37,560 Speaker 1: that you can be outside of him or you can 744 00:50:37,600 --> 00:50:41,440 Speaker 1: be inside of him. The scene where Sark is actually 745 00:50:42,160 --> 00:50:45,960 Speaker 1: you know, at the pedestal and the m CP surround him. 746 00:50:47,040 --> 00:50:51,399 Speaker 1: I like that that. You know, it's that's a relationship 747 00:50:51,480 --> 00:50:55,160 Speaker 1: with the technology. We can be objective to it or 748 00:50:55,280 --> 00:51:00,239 Speaker 1: we can be subjected to being inside the technology and 749 00:51:00,280 --> 00:51:04,960 Speaker 1: it's completely surrounds us. I always pictured him as kind 750 00:51:04,960 --> 00:51:12,840 Speaker 1: of a it's funny processor, like a food processor, because 751 00:51:12,880 --> 00:51:16,359 Speaker 1: he's kind of like a juicer you think about it. 752 00:51:16,480 --> 00:51:20,560 Speaker 1: You know, he brings in these programs and he these 753 00:51:20,719 --> 00:51:24,440 Speaker 1: entities and then he juices them to extract their information. 754 00:51:25,640 --> 00:51:32,320 Speaker 1: And I'll tell you a little funny um story about 755 00:51:32,520 --> 00:51:36,239 Speaker 1: the m c P and Flynn, which is that I 756 00:51:36,280 --> 00:51:42,880 Speaker 1: didn't know that Jeff who's contribution. I can't stop bragging 757 00:51:42,920 --> 00:51:45,399 Speaker 1: about how you know, great he is in that role, 758 00:51:45,480 --> 00:51:50,920 Speaker 1: but um and I cast him so the uh that 759 00:51:51,040 --> 00:51:58,040 Speaker 1: was my contribution. He did the rest, but he UM, 760 00:51:58,080 --> 00:52:01,840 Speaker 1: I didn't know he was going to do this persona 761 00:52:02,239 --> 00:52:05,759 Speaker 1: and so we started filming the tank scene and he 762 00:52:05,840 --> 00:52:08,680 Speaker 1: was doing it and it was really cool and it 763 00:52:08,719 --> 00:52:11,279 Speaker 1: was a daring move on his part. But then the 764 00:52:11,440 --> 00:52:14,520 Speaker 1: m c P, the recognizers common they capture Clue and 765 00:52:14,520 --> 00:52:17,640 Speaker 1: then they put him in the m c P and uh, 766 00:52:19,120 --> 00:52:22,680 Speaker 1: he starts getting d rez and then he starts screaming 767 00:52:22,719 --> 00:52:27,160 Speaker 1: for his life and Jeff delivers this great, you know, 768 00:52:27,520 --> 00:52:31,240 Speaker 1: heartfelt moment of like, you know, I'm not giving into 769 00:52:31,280 --> 00:52:34,200 Speaker 1: you m c P. But he doesn't do it in 770 00:52:34,239 --> 00:52:38,720 Speaker 1: the Clue voice. He does it as in his real voice, 771 00:52:39,560 --> 00:52:43,239 Speaker 1: and neither of us caught that. No one caught that 772 00:52:43,360 --> 00:52:47,200 Speaker 1: inconsistency that if you think about it, that should have 773 00:52:47,239 --> 00:52:50,759 Speaker 1: been in the Clue program voice, but and you know, 774 00:52:51,200 --> 00:52:54,239 Speaker 1: but it isn't. And it's a little bit like it's 775 00:52:54,320 --> 00:52:56,840 Speaker 1: kind of freaky because it's a little bit like Clue 776 00:52:56,880 --> 00:52:59,840 Speaker 1: was dying. And then the last thing he did was 777 00:53:00,320 --> 00:53:04,160 Speaker 1: act like you know, a user just before the end, 778 00:53:05,760 --> 00:53:08,320 Speaker 1: so that's you know, it was kind of a happy accident. 779 00:53:08,800 --> 00:53:11,839 Speaker 1: But anyway, the the m c P was it was like, 780 00:53:12,200 --> 00:53:17,239 Speaker 1: you know, a food processor with people or characters, and 781 00:53:20,400 --> 00:53:24,640 Speaker 1: that design actually did not change all that much. I 782 00:53:24,680 --> 00:53:29,160 Speaker 1: mean it was it was worked over brilliantly by Sid 783 00:53:29,239 --> 00:53:34,280 Speaker 1: Mead and improved a lot, but that the through line 784 00:53:34,560 --> 00:53:40,640 Speaker 1: went back years. Well, I guess, uh, you know to 785 00:53:40,760 --> 00:53:46,520 Speaker 1: me just seeing that that image, uh, that that enormous 786 00:53:46,680 --> 00:53:53,640 Speaker 1: had that booming voice, it's consuming the the information uh 787 00:53:53,880 --> 00:53:56,840 Speaker 1: from from other programs to me today, like when I 788 00:53:56,840 --> 00:53:58,799 Speaker 1: think of the Internet voice, that's the voice that's in 789 00:53:58,840 --> 00:54:02,160 Speaker 1: my head. It's the of m C p as as 790 00:54:02,200 --> 00:54:05,799 Speaker 1: it's consuming and you know, talking again about pressions, like 791 00:54:06,200 --> 00:54:10,719 Speaker 1: there's so much here about the emerging of what it 792 00:54:10,840 --> 00:54:13,720 Speaker 1: is to be human and the technology that we created. 793 00:54:14,160 --> 00:54:18,040 Speaker 1: It really really seems like the singularity, like that concept 794 00:54:18,080 --> 00:54:21,799 Speaker 1: of the singularity of of humans elevating themselves to the 795 00:54:21,840 --> 00:54:25,960 Speaker 1: next level, perhaps merging with machines or incorporating machines in 796 00:54:26,040 --> 00:54:28,360 Speaker 1: some way. Sometimes it doesn't involve that, but but a 797 00:54:28,360 --> 00:54:32,640 Speaker 1: lot of the versions of the singularity do this seems like, uh, 798 00:54:32,680 --> 00:54:34,600 Speaker 1: it was very much in that that sort of vein, 799 00:54:34,680 --> 00:54:38,840 Speaker 1: like this idea of you know, there were no we 800 00:54:38,880 --> 00:54:42,720 Speaker 1: didn't use the term user before Tron, and people didn't 801 00:54:42,719 --> 00:54:46,760 Speaker 1: know what the word meant, and people didn't have computers. 802 00:54:46,800 --> 00:54:49,600 Speaker 1: I mean, there were no really you know, handful, but 803 00:54:50,360 --> 00:54:55,360 Speaker 1: people were and they were crude at best. So, um, 804 00:54:55,400 --> 00:54:58,960 Speaker 1: this whole idea of your sort of your alter ego, 805 00:54:59,320 --> 00:55:03,160 Speaker 1: your avoc are being you know, in there in the 806 00:55:03,200 --> 00:55:07,600 Speaker 1: form of your information, that just keeps building every year, 807 00:55:08,600 --> 00:55:13,320 Speaker 1: so that you know, it's it's getting to the point 808 00:55:13,520 --> 00:55:16,920 Speaker 1: where we really are creating as much as possible, a 809 00:55:17,120 --> 00:55:25,120 Speaker 1: double ganger of ourselves digitally. And I mean, I think 810 00:55:25,239 --> 00:55:29,840 Speaker 1: what's interesting is that Nintendo, i've heard, has done studies 811 00:55:29,920 --> 00:55:35,080 Speaker 1: on how people texture themselves in their mind's eye, and 812 00:55:35,800 --> 00:55:40,480 Speaker 1: they've come to the conclusion that we imagine ourselves this 813 00:55:40,719 --> 00:55:45,480 Speaker 1: is somewhat a cartoon version of ourselves. And I think 814 00:55:45,520 --> 00:55:49,799 Speaker 1: that's one of the reasons that Nintendo video games as 815 00:55:49,840 --> 00:55:52,400 Speaker 1: successful and brilliant as they are. I mean, part of 816 00:55:52,440 --> 00:55:57,600 Speaker 1: that success, I think comes from working with that theory 817 00:55:57,760 --> 00:56:02,279 Speaker 1: that you know, they're not realistic, and I think that 818 00:56:02,560 --> 00:56:06,279 Speaker 1: the idea of a realistic double ganger, a sort of 819 00:56:06,360 --> 00:56:11,000 Speaker 1: copy of ourselves, I think that that's a in some 820 00:56:11,120 --> 00:56:17,480 Speaker 1: ways maybe more challenging, and I think that's part of 821 00:56:17,520 --> 00:56:23,919 Speaker 1: the challenge that we're actually facing that you know, it's 822 00:56:24,000 --> 00:56:27,600 Speaker 1: it's a little bit like not only we're creating a 823 00:56:27,760 --> 00:56:33,719 Speaker 1: double gang or Earth and a digital one. And like 824 00:56:33,760 --> 00:56:36,160 Speaker 1: I said earlier, I think we feel good about that 825 00:56:36,360 --> 00:56:42,880 Speaker 1: because it doesn't confound us like the universe. You know, 826 00:56:43,440 --> 00:56:46,400 Speaker 1: it has problems like hackers and trolls, but yeah, we 827 00:56:46,440 --> 00:56:50,920 Speaker 1: can deal with that. But you know, because ultimately those 828 00:56:50,920 --> 00:56:57,719 Speaker 1: are people are and where we don't understand is CEO two. 829 00:56:59,520 --> 00:57:05,279 Speaker 1: You know. I uh, well, Stephen Lisberger, this has been 830 00:57:05,320 --> 00:57:08,440 Speaker 1: a huge thrill for me to to talk to the 831 00:57:08,480 --> 00:57:11,480 Speaker 1: writer and director of a film that, you know what 832 00:57:11,600 --> 00:57:14,880 Speaker 1: played a big part in my childhood and I watch 833 00:57:14,920 --> 00:57:17,840 Speaker 1: it frequently, so I have, in fact, I want to 834 00:57:17,880 --> 00:57:22,720 Speaker 1: take this opportunity to thank you for your quarters. Oh 835 00:57:22,840 --> 00:57:25,040 Speaker 1: there have been an I didn't even get into the 836 00:57:25,160 --> 00:57:28,840 Speaker 1: arcades section of this because I mean, you know, I 837 00:57:28,880 --> 00:57:32,200 Speaker 1: just had to had one footnote because I can't resist, 838 00:57:32,280 --> 00:57:34,200 Speaker 1: which is you know, people always talking about well, the 839 00:57:34,240 --> 00:57:37,040 Speaker 1: first Tron. You know, it didn't make enough money, It 840 00:57:37,160 --> 00:57:41,040 Speaker 1: wasn't eat well the movie paid for itself as a movie, 841 00:57:41,880 --> 00:57:46,720 Speaker 1: but the video game paid for the entire movie. Too. 842 00:57:47,600 --> 00:57:50,200 Speaker 1: Many a week's allowance went into discs of Tron. For me. 843 00:57:50,640 --> 00:57:55,120 Speaker 1: I remember the full console, like the one you would 844 00:57:55,160 --> 00:57:59,000 Speaker 1: step in and play and uh, and yeah, I played 845 00:57:59,080 --> 00:58:01,840 Speaker 1: a lot of that game. Yeah, do you know about 846 00:58:01,840 --> 00:58:05,000 Speaker 1: the Tron ride in Shanghai. I have heard about this, 847 00:58:05,080 --> 00:58:07,400 Speaker 1: I have not made my way to Asia yet and 848 00:58:07,560 --> 00:58:12,439 Speaker 1: set it out on YouTube Tron Shanghai and um, it's 849 00:58:12,520 --> 00:58:16,360 Speaker 1: pretty amazing. They worked on that ride for over fifteen years. 850 00:58:16,960 --> 00:58:19,880 Speaker 1: Actually happened. Yeah, I've heard. I've heard about a new 851 00:58:19,920 --> 00:58:24,120 Speaker 1: one to do it in Florida now. So I'm really 852 00:58:24,160 --> 00:58:28,520 Speaker 1: excited about that because, you know, the thing is, like 853 00:58:28,560 --> 00:58:31,960 Speaker 1: you said earlier, people think of Tron and you know, 854 00:58:31,960 --> 00:58:35,520 Speaker 1: it's sometimes too literally like, oh, you know, it's a 855 00:58:35,600 --> 00:58:38,560 Speaker 1: small world in there. You know, it's a small world 856 00:58:38,600 --> 00:58:42,960 Speaker 1: after all. And but it's funny because with the Tron ride, 857 00:58:43,040 --> 00:58:47,080 Speaker 1: the world of Tron is immense and you're small and 858 00:58:47,160 --> 00:58:51,680 Speaker 1: you get on the ride and in some ways that's 859 00:58:51,720 --> 00:58:56,440 Speaker 1: the whole you know, that's the most thrilling part to 860 00:58:56,520 --> 00:58:59,800 Speaker 1: be small and have that recognizer looming over your head, 861 00:58:59,840 --> 00:59:03,520 Speaker 1: for instance. Yeah, to make that lead to realize, oh, 862 00:59:03,680 --> 00:59:08,200 Speaker 1: you know, this world is not small, and so yeah, 863 00:59:08,320 --> 00:59:11,480 Speaker 1: it's really cool to ride. But anyway, yeah, the game 864 00:59:11,520 --> 00:59:16,320 Speaker 1: and the ride, I mean, I can't wait to experience 865 00:59:16,360 --> 00:59:19,160 Speaker 1: the ride. I really, I really am looking forward to that. 866 00:59:19,640 --> 00:59:22,200 Speaker 1: The game remains one of my favorites. I'm a I'm 867 00:59:22,200 --> 00:59:25,160 Speaker 1: a child of the seventies and eighties, so the Arcade 868 00:59:25,320 --> 00:59:30,680 Speaker 1: experience was really an important one for me growing up. Also, 869 00:59:31,120 --> 00:59:34,600 Speaker 1: Tron obviously being in that realm of for a lot 870 00:59:34,600 --> 00:59:36,240 Speaker 1: of people, it was kind of their introduction to this 871 00:59:36,360 --> 00:59:40,800 Speaker 1: concept of taking taking a very abstract idea in the 872 00:59:40,800 --> 00:59:44,760 Speaker 1: form of computer program and really turning it into something relatable. 873 00:59:44,800 --> 00:59:47,800 Speaker 1: I mean, to have a computer program that could technically 874 00:59:47,800 --> 00:59:49,800 Speaker 1: just be oh well, this is just a spreadsheet program, 875 00:59:49,840 --> 00:59:54,320 Speaker 1: but no, in this world that is a an anthropomorphic 876 00:59:54,720 --> 00:59:59,880 Speaker 1: creation that can fight for you. That's uh pretty amazing concept. 877 01:00:00,560 --> 01:00:05,880 Speaker 1: Uh I. This was a huge thrill for me. I 878 01:00:05,920 --> 01:00:08,200 Speaker 1: thank you so much. Yeah, if you get a chance 879 01:00:08,240 --> 01:00:10,440 Speaker 1: to get a word, and I mean, I'll totally be 880 01:00:10,480 --> 01:00:14,160 Speaker 1: an extra in Tron three. I'm I'm happy to be. Yeah, 881 01:00:14,360 --> 01:00:17,640 Speaker 1: just sitting at sitting off at the side. I'm perfectly fine. 882 01:00:17,720 --> 01:00:19,480 Speaker 1: I just want to I want to be in the 883 01:00:19,520 --> 01:00:22,640 Speaker 1: room where it happens as they say, thank you for 884 01:00:22,760 --> 01:00:30,120 Speaker 1: enjoining me again. Okay, you too. Bye. I hope you 885 01:00:30,160 --> 01:00:33,640 Speaker 1: enjoyed that discussion with Mr Lisburger. I could have easily 886 01:00:33,880 --> 01:00:37,360 Speaker 1: kept talking for another hour or two with him, and 887 01:00:37,360 --> 01:00:39,240 Speaker 1: I get the feeling he would have indulged me for 888 01:00:39,320 --> 01:00:41,120 Speaker 1: as long as he had the time to do so. 889 01:00:41,880 --> 01:00:45,920 Speaker 1: I've always had an appreciation for Tron. I've always enjoyed 890 01:00:45,960 --> 01:00:49,000 Speaker 1: that movie ever since it first came out, But now 891 01:00:49,040 --> 01:00:52,880 Speaker 1: that appreciation is even more profound knowing the challenges that 892 01:00:52,960 --> 01:00:55,680 Speaker 1: the team faced in order to produce this movie at 893 01:00:55,680 --> 01:00:58,080 Speaker 1: the time that it was made, going to the point 894 01:00:58,120 --> 01:01:02,080 Speaker 1: where you would swear this was computer generated imagery, and 895 01:01:02,120 --> 01:01:05,760 Speaker 1: then knowing that it was hand animated, hand drawn on 896 01:01:05,840 --> 01:01:11,680 Speaker 1: top of actual individual cells of film. It's incredible to 897 01:01:11,760 --> 01:01:14,280 Speaker 1: think of how much work and care and love went 898 01:01:14,320 --> 01:01:17,680 Speaker 1: into this film and created that distinctive look and feel. 899 01:01:18,600 --> 01:01:20,320 Speaker 1: And also, I really do hope I can show up 900 01:01:20,320 --> 01:01:25,919 Speaker 1: in Tron three The Balls in your Court, Disney call me. 901 01:01:28,800 --> 01:01:32,680 Speaker 1: I hope you guys enjoyed that episode. With our conversation 902 01:01:32,680 --> 01:01:36,080 Speaker 1: with the director of Tron, we will keep on going 903 01:01:36,200 --> 01:01:38,840 Speaker 1: with this entertainment playlists, so stick around if you want 904 01:01:38,840 --> 01:01:41,160 Speaker 1: to hear more, and if you have any suggestions for 905 01:01:41,200 --> 01:01:44,040 Speaker 1: future episodes, send me a message. You can reach out 906 01:01:44,080 --> 01:01:47,080 Speaker 1: on Facebook or Twitter to handle it's tech stuff. H. S. 907 01:01:47,280 --> 01:01:54,959 Speaker 1: W and I'll talk to you again. Really Send text 908 01:01:54,960 --> 01:01:58,440 Speaker 1: Stuff is an I heart Radio production. For more podcasts 909 01:01:58,440 --> 01:02:01,200 Speaker 1: from my heart Radio, visit the i heart Radio app, 910 01:02:01,320 --> 01:02:04,480 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. 911 01:02:09,040 --> 01:02:09,080 Speaker 1: H