Speaker 1: This podcast discusses sexual assault. Please take care while listening.
Speaker 2: All of a sudden, there he is standing there with
Speaker 2: this very abrupt information that I find you attractive. I
Speaker 2: think you're beautiful. I want to kiss you. It's very confusing.
Speaker 2: I mean, our brain is just on a cognitive level
Speaker 2: trying to make sense of what's unfolding right now, and
Speaker 2: then all of a sudden, we might find ourselves going
Speaker 2: along with it. Now we've shared a kiss, there usually
Speaker 2: is a feeling that there's a point of no return.
Speaker 1: I'm Andrea Gunning and this is Betrayal, Episode nine Grooming.
Speaker 1: During the course of our series Betrayal, we learned that
Speaker 1: Jennifer's then husband, Spencer, had dozens of affairs and sexually
Speaker 1: assaulted one of his students. Rachel. The student, bravely recounted
Speaker 1: her experience. On an earlier episode. She painstakenly recounted how
Speaker 1: a trusted adult in her life roomed her by first
Speaker 1: becoming a trusted mentor and confidant to a sexual predator.
Speaker 1: It was hard to hear, but a lesson in how
Speaker 1: adults manipulate children.
Speaker 3: I think I was more confused with a grown adult
Speaker 3: telling me that they had these feelings for me that
Speaker 3: you see in movies, you know, when someone confesses their feelings,
Speaker 3: and as a kid, it's shocking when someone tells you
Speaker 3: at the time that they love you and they have
Speaker 3: these feelings for you that they don't want to hide,
Speaker 3: and that you're special. It was a shock.
Speaker 4: I remember him specifically saying that he had never felt
Speaker 4: this way before with anyone, and that I was special
Speaker 4: to him.
Speaker 3: That's how he made me feel. He made me feel
Speaker 3: special and I could trust him if I ever needed
Speaker 3: to talk to him about anything personal.
Speaker 1: That interview triggered a slew of responses from many of you. Jen,
Speaker 1: would you mind reading one of those emails?
Speaker 5: Sure this may sound scattered because I'm a stay at
Speaker 5: home mom with four little ones, but I am Rachel.
Speaker 5: I was groomed by my teacher and coach. He was
Speaker 5: very calculated and prayed upon me, just like Rachel. I'd
Speaker 5: never dated anyone, was very insecure and innocent. I have
Speaker 5: felt so alone for so many years. Rachel was brave
Speaker 5: and a huge encouragement for me. Wow, I know right.
Speaker 5: It's that whole feeling alone thing that sometimes just makes
Speaker 5: you feel like you've done something wrong. But then when
Speaker 5: you hear other people tell a similar story, It's just like, Wow,
Speaker 5: this happens to other people, so it must not just
Speaker 5: be my fault, or it must not be my fault
Speaker 5: at all.
Speaker 1: And we're seeing this in the emails. There's so much
Speaker 1: relief and there's like a weight lifted. I mean, there
Speaker 1: were so many others just like the one that you
Speaker 1: just read, actually, including students of your ex husband.
Speaker 5: Yeah, we got a lot of feedback, but the ones
Speaker 5: that actually knew him or were one of his students
Speaker 5: at some point in his career. Oh man, it's sickening.
Speaker 1: And is sickening and it's consistent. Yeah, after we heard
Speaker 1: Rachel's story, you ended up speaking with two of the
Speaker 1: women that your husband at the time carried long term
Speaker 1: affairs with and these went on for years. One of
Speaker 1: the women was also a friend of yours at the time.
Speaker 1: Let's hear a little bit of that.
Speaker 6: Okay, the way I was talked to to feel good
Speaker 6: about myself to trust him, surely that happened to that
Speaker 6: same girl. I bet you any money it was the
Speaker 6: same steps. Just continuously building a relationship with somebody and
Speaker 6: making them feel good about themselves, but also making them
Speaker 6: feel like they're not doing anything bad. I had remembered
Speaker 6: saying like, I can't do this, this is wrong. Well, no, no,
Speaker 6: it's not wrong. You just can't help when two people
Speaker 6: just click like we do, it's rooming. It is grooming,
Speaker 6: and they don't mind taking the time to build that trust.
Speaker 1: We received a lot of emails about this particular episode.
Speaker 5: You know, out of all the episodes, this one getting
Speaker 5: the most feedback from was really interesting. I think it
Speaker 5: really started that whole discussion about what is grooming, what
Speaker 5: is predatory behavior? Can you be groomed as an adult?
Speaker 1: It was so interesting. So many people were just curious,
Speaker 1: but also had a lot of feelings about it. Do
Speaker 1: you mind sharing one of those?
Speaker 5: Sure? I learned so much from this podcast, but mostly
Speaker 5: I decided it was time to forgive myself from a
Speaker 5: relationship that has weighed on me for far too long.
Speaker 5: I don't make excuses, and I take full responsibility for
Speaker 5: my decisions. However, now I realized that I was a
Speaker 5: perfect target, vulnerable and desiring attention, even if it was
Speaker 5: the wrong kind of attention. This is nothing compared to
Speaker 5: what you went through. But Spence and this guy seemed
Speaker 5: to have similar characteristics regarding how they approached to others.
Speaker 2: Emails like that make me feel really great.
Speaker 1: Why there was empathy and forgiveness, and it's healing for
Speaker 1: you and the other women involved with Spencer. Hearing from
Speaker 1: the other women allows them to release that shame a
Speaker 1: little bit.
Speaker 5: You know, people would ask why did you need to
Speaker 5: talk to these women? And I understand that some people
Speaker 5: are going to think it's weird or strange or something
Speaker 5: like that. But that's how you understand someone else's side
Speaker 5: of things. You listen to what they went through and
Speaker 5: you realize that they were lied to, they were manipulated.
Speaker 2: But there were a lot.
Speaker 1: Of other big feelings about this episode that weren't the
Speaker 1: same reaction, especially when it came to your former friend.
Speaker 5: Yeah, you want me to read this one email we got,
Speaker 5: Yeah share. The woman who had an affair with a
Speaker 5: married man kept saying she was groomed. That is not grooming. Manipulative, yes, grooming. No,
Speaker 5: she was an adult and he was not in position
Speaker 5: of authority over her. This is an irresponsible use of
Speaker 5: this word and takes away from those of us who
Speaker 5: are really groomed. You may want to provide some additional
Speaker 5: information about what grooming is versus being manipulated by a sociopath.
Speaker 5: Language matters. And here's another one. The two women were grown,
Speaker 5: adult women and know right from wrong. I feel it's
Speaker 5: a dangerous viewpoint to treat women as helpless victims that
Speaker 5: are at the mercy of manipulative men. Adult women can
Speaker 5: make their own decisions. We are not weak, helpless creatures.
Speaker 5: I think it would be a far more effective message
Speaker 5: to hold the adult women accountable for their choices and
Speaker 5: not portray them as victims.
Speaker 1: When we read that email about how language matters, I
Speaker 1: was like, absolutely it does, and so let's have a
Speaker 1: larger conversation and educate the audience about what grooming is
Speaker 1: and really explore that conversation in this forum because so
Speaker 1: many people reached out about it, just wanting to know
Speaker 1: what it is, how it happens, and clarifying the difference
Speaker 1: between what happened to Rachel and these other women, or
Speaker 1: how are they similar, how are they dissimilar.
Speaker 5: I think we have been very responsible in telling this story,
Speaker 5: and so when we did get this feedback, we decided
Speaker 5: to seek out an expert to really help define this
Speaker 5: stuff absolutely.
Speaker 1: And look, our job was to tell your story and
Speaker 1: let women involved speak for themselves and tell their truth
Speaker 1: and their stories. And by any calculation, it took a
Speaker 1: lot of guts to do that.
Speaker 2: It really did.
Speaker 1: But it's also clear that we need to do some
Speaker 1: more work on defining grooming in a more clinical way,
Speaker 1: so we sought out a top expert. Jerrika Heinze is
Speaker 1: a resource specialist at the National Sexual Violence Resource Center
Speaker 1: and also the founder of the field Work Initiative, an
Speaker 1: organization which addresses issues of trauma and gendered violence in
Speaker 1: academia research field Work. Jerica is a cultural anthropologist who
Speaker 1: speaks internationally on issues of sexual harassment, abuses of power,
Speaker 1: and violence prevention.
Speaker 5: Thank you, Jerica for spending some time with us.
Speaker 2: Thank you so very much. I'm always very happy and
Speaker 2: glad to have these conversations, not because they're particularly uplifting,
Speaker 2: but more so because they've been so historically absent in
Speaker 2: conversations that have had in our society, and I think
Speaker 2: having these kind of illuminating conversations is the ultimate form
Speaker 2: of prevention. So thank you so much for the opportunities
Speaker 2: to do that.
Speaker 5: Of course, So, Jerica, how did you get into this
Speaker 5: line of work and become an expert in this field.
Speaker 2: I myself have experiences of grooming and that culminated into
Speaker 2: the sort of very subtle beginnings of sexual harassment, then
Speaker 2: much more apparent sexual harassment, and that culminated into a
Speaker 2: sexual assault. I was still a peach d student with
Speaker 2: an immense amount of trust and moral debt towards an advisor,
Speaker 2: a person who in my research field was helping and
Speaker 2: guiding me for many years, offering help and aid and
Speaker 2: trust in that individual who was significantly older than me.
Speaker 2: But I was still a very much an adult woman.
Speaker 2: I was in my late twenties. Since that there was
Speaker 2: another researcher who was raped and murdered nearby that area,
Speaker 2: and that was what fully initiated the creation of field
Speaker 2: work initiative. My work at National Sexual Violence Resource Center
Speaker 2: is looking very broadly at topics of sexual abuse, to
Speaker 2: gender violence, domestic violence, and thinking about survivor led and
Speaker 2: centered resources for folks. For the past three years, I
Speaker 2: have interviewed survivors of academic trauma and fieldwork trauma abuse
Speaker 2: and that kind of lended itself to a purpose of knowledge,
Speaker 2: that's training and informational where we shed light on this
Speaker 2: issue about grooming about the abuses of power and how
Speaker 2: those dynamics un full.
Speaker 1: So is it safe to say that your experience you
Speaker 1: went through as a PhD student changed the course of
Speaker 1: your career.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's absolutely spot on. I mean I had this
Speaker 2: fear that I didn't want sexual harassment to be like
Speaker 2: my thing. I never wanted to do this work, and
Speaker 2: this work is continued simply because it's needed. No other
Speaker 2: organization exists that sheds light in the same way.
Speaker 5: So in doing this podcast, I spoke with not only
Speaker 5: the sexual assault victim, but also with a couple of
Speaker 5: the adult women that my ex husband had had affairs with.
Speaker 5: The question that came up a lot for us is
Speaker 5: how exactly do you define grooming?
Speaker 2: Grooming is the concept of putting an idea in somebody's mind,
Speaker 2: painting a picture that will align and allow them to
Speaker 2: perpetrate whatever acts they intend, and building that emotional connection
Speaker 2: with you know, the people they target, which allows them
Speaker 2: to set a stage of hiding in playing sight. He's
Speaker 2: a teacher, You would never do that is such a
Speaker 2: great neighbor and a coach that targeting earning of trust
Speaker 2: with the purpose of exploiting their own motives, be that
Speaker 2: through sexual abuse, financial abuse. We see grooming with elder adults, right,
Speaker 2: you know, FIDU shary abuse. So grooming is not anything
Speaker 2: that is specific to any one age group, any one individual.
Speaker 2: You know, anybody is susceptible to be groom.
Speaker 5: That is so helpful to know, because, as you know,
Speaker 5: my husband was involved with women of many ages and backgrounds,
Speaker 5: and so we've gotten so many questions and feedback about
Speaker 5: grooming in this case, and it's been a topic of
Speaker 5: so much debate.
Speaker 2: Jerica.
Speaker 5: One of the things that I feel like we noticed
Speaker 5: with a lot of my ex husband's communication with these
Speaker 5: women were to kind of prey on their vulnerabilities, saying
Speaker 5: things to them like how beautiful they are and I
Speaker 5: haven't felt this way before, lines like that, would you
Speaker 5: consider that grooming?
Speaker 4: Oh?
Speaker 2: Absolutely, praying on the vulnerabilities, those imaginations of what does
Speaker 2: that person need to hear to kind of turn the
Speaker 2: key for this situation to take flight. And you know
Speaker 2: what I noticed in the story of the friend, you know,
Speaker 2: at the bar of the initial contact, was that she
Speaker 2: was coming out of the bathroom and she had had
Speaker 2: a little bit of wine and that all of a
Speaker 2: sudden that abrupked he's standing there, he's saying these things.
Speaker 2: You know, if we look at our brains when something
Speaker 2: unexpected happens or traumatic or shocking, I mean, it's lit
Speaker 2: up like the fourth of July. There's confusion, what's happening
Speaker 2: and what does it mean? What's going on? And all
Speaker 2: of a sudden there are is standing there with this
Speaker 2: very information that you know, I find you attractive, I
Speaker 2: think you're beautiful. I want to kiss you. It's very confusing.
Speaker 2: I mean, our brain is just on a cognitive level
Speaker 2: trying to make sense of what's unfolding right now, and
Speaker 2: then all of a sudden we might find ourselves going
Speaker 2: along with it. Now we've shared a kiss, now that
Speaker 2: person has become part of it. It's not as we
Speaker 2: might imagine it would go, where we expect a person
Speaker 2: to say, excuse me, no, I can't do this, or
Speaker 2: you know, it's all very much preying on opportunism of
Speaker 2: the person not expecting, and also the idea that that
Speaker 2: person is special and that they're the only one, and
Speaker 2: that it's not really a bad thing because I see
Speaker 2: how special you are.
Speaker 1: How do you respond to people saying, well, they're an adult,
Speaker 1: they have agency that feels different than someone that doesn't
Speaker 1: have any sexual experience I was so young and really
Speaker 1: doesn't have context to the sexual and romantic world. And
Speaker 1: then if you have someone who has lived in the
Speaker 1: world longer and has had those experiences, they should bring
Speaker 1: that judgment to those scenarios.
Speaker 2: So how do you respond to you.
Speaker 1: Know, a grown woman or a grown adult has agency.
Speaker 2: There's almost sea of different ways and modes that vulnerabilities
Speaker 2: are kind of created and exploited. But there's no magic
Speaker 2: age or a set age in which we're actually fully
Speaker 2: formed adults that are completely moved on from any of
Speaker 2: the things that you know, we might have struggled with
Speaker 2: in our past or our traumas, and those are different
Speaker 2: for different people. So you know, somebody with childhood sexual
Speaker 2: abuse is going to have a different experience with that
Speaker 2: than somebody who did not have those experiences. So it's
Speaker 2: important not to be so kind of on and off
Speaker 2: about where we imagine adults agency lies, and more so
Speaker 2: think about trauma and as role and ol our thinking
Speaker 2: in all of our concepts of ourselves and how we
Speaker 2: move through the world.
Speaker 5: That's so interesting in the case of the two women
Speaker 5: I spoke to that are adults that had affairs. I
Speaker 5: think spence used making them feel beautiful specifically for them.
Speaker 5: Do groomers look for a certain personality type.
Speaker 2: I think grooming is quite across the board. There was
Speaker 2: grooming of neighbors and parents at school, There was grooming
Speaker 2: of the coworkers. Planting that idea about them being a
Speaker 2: trustworthy individual, and planting that idea about who they were
Speaker 2: is a form of grooming as well. We do know
Speaker 2: that when groomors see an opening of a vulnerability, they
Speaker 2: are really privy to stepping in and perceiving that and
Speaker 2: seeing and testing sort of where they can insert themselves
Speaker 2: and insert and yield that power over them and then
Speaker 2: over time sort of slowly portraying that image. But where
Speaker 2: the victim still has that strong image in their mind
Speaker 2: because there was such an impression made, and there was
Speaker 2: everybody else that's holding the same idea.
Speaker 5: And how is that different if it's different than being
Speaker 5: a sexual predator.
Speaker 2: We see at times with sexual predators, even though they
Speaker 2: might have a desire or an inclination, there may not
Speaker 2: in every instance be this premeditation, this grand orchestration that
Speaker 2: we see with grooming. Grooming is that false sense of
Speaker 2: an extreme emotional connection that the individual builds over time.
Speaker 2: They're also never the same person twice. If we ask
Speaker 2: an array of people who they are and what they
Speaker 2: know about them, we might hear things about that person
Speaker 2: we would never even imagine are possible. Because there's a
Speaker 2: portrait that a groomer paints and they sort of hand
Speaker 2: it to you.
Speaker 5: That makes so much sense to me. So much of
Speaker 5: this project has been about trying to see the many
Speaker 5: different portraits my ex husband painted to others. Spence painted
Speaker 5: himself different ways around different people. To me, he painted
Speaker 5: himself as the perfect husband and I was his perfect wife.
Speaker 2: And you just usually accepted, as we do in society.
Speaker 2: If I were to tell you I was an astronaut,
Speaker 2: you know what reason would you not believe that that's true,
Speaker 2: especially if I say it with confidence and have a
Speaker 2: certain way in which I carry myself with that information.
Speaker 2: And so grooming is that sense of dependence and overall
Speaker 2: vulnerability that's created between an individual and the groomer, and
Speaker 2: it's all done for the purpose of orchestrating their own motives,
Speaker 2: be those sexual, be those financial, maybe just the power
Speaker 2: of it.
Speaker 5: He orchestrated an emotional connection with many many of these women,
Speaker 5: obviously with the sexual assault victim herself, but also I
Speaker 5: think with a lot of these other grown women.
Speaker 1: So when we were thinking through questions that we wanted
Speaker 1: to ask you, Jerica, one of the questions was how
Speaker 1: do victims who.
Speaker 2: Are experienced grooming shut it down?
Speaker 1: And as I was sitting with that phrase shut it down,
Speaker 1: it just didn't sit right with me because it just
Speaker 1: felt like it was on the victim. You know, those
Speaker 1: who do not shut it down are weak. Those who
Speaker 1: do not shut it down need to work on themselves.
Speaker 1: They're not strong. And there's like this like weird inherent
Speaker 1: criticism to that phrase.
Speaker 2: There usually is a feeling that there's a point of
Speaker 2: no return that if that person who knew that you
Speaker 2: told someone that you're going to be in trouble or
Speaker 2: that oh well we kissed now you know, the cats
Speaker 2: out of the bag? Yeah, how can victims know that,
Speaker 2: no matter what has happened, there's always a way to
Speaker 2: step outside of that dynamic and getting them to realize
Speaker 2: that that's their right and that they have the freedom
Speaker 2: to do it, and that you know, they're going to
Speaker 2: be believed and they're not going to be blamed things
Speaker 2: like that, and I think that telling survivors that no
Speaker 2: matter how long something has gone on, no matter what
Speaker 2: has happened, that you always have a right to set
Speaker 2: it down by saying and expressing it. It's like, oh,
Speaker 2: what so much has already happened. I have to somehow
Speaker 2: spin it. I have to somehow make it okay or
Speaker 2: make it better, or there's some sort of burden about
Speaker 2: it not being as bad, or I have to somehow
Speaker 2: go down with the ship, or you know, there's so
Speaker 2: many ways people might feel it, and just letting people
Speaker 2: know no matter what has happened, no matter how long
Speaker 2: it's gone on, you always have the right to say,
Speaker 2: you know what, I'm going to speak my truth about this,
Speaker 2: this has been happening, this has happened, and that there's
Speaker 2: always that exit button that usually begins with telling someone
Speaker 2: we trust, usually begins with a feeling empowered to do
Speaker 2: that because there's an immense amount of fear. It's not easy,
Speaker 2: it's scary, it's extremely scary. It's one of the scariest
Speaker 2: things you can imagine is not knowing what's possible.
Speaker 5: When you're scared or operating from a place of fear.
Speaker 5: It's really hard to think rationally.
Speaker 2: We become hyper vigilant when we have trauma, and that
Speaker 2: hypervigilance creates this thing our brain where we have to
Speaker 2: imagine the worst case scenario is going to happen next,
Speaker 2: We're going to be blamed. No one's going to believe us.
Speaker 2: They're going to use some sort of revenge. That's why
Speaker 2: we need more trauma informed education, starting from a young age,
Speaker 2: why we need these kinds of conversations.
Speaker 5: Absolutely. One feeling I get from some of these women
Speaker 5: that I've spoken with is they were really upset and
Speaker 5: angry with themselves for falling for it.
Speaker 2: I'd say one of the paramount things to understand about
Speaker 2: blooming is that the groomer has implicated you in this event.
Speaker 2: You've played a role. And this is why I think
Speaker 2: for you, Jen, as the core victim, as the wife,
Speaker 2: we can't really look back and think that there was
Speaker 2: any even red flags. But thinking to the fact that
Speaker 2: all of these victims themselves played in some way, you know,
Speaker 2: the groomer implicated them. Well, I kissed you and you
Speaker 2: didn't push me away. You know you could have. I
Speaker 2: know at any moment you didn't have to text me back.
Speaker 2: You could have told the police at any moment if
Speaker 2: you didn't want to, and you could have walked away.
Speaker 2: You know, this is the way in which it happens.
Speaker 2: And so what happens is the victims feel this as
Speaker 2: the first surge of guilt. And that's how rumors are
Speaker 2: so successful. They find that little wedge between where they
Speaker 2: can really bring out vulnerabilities in the sense that they're
Speaker 2: going to ameliorate them, but also drive that wedge. Well,
Speaker 2: yeah this is bad, but you know I didn't act alone.
Speaker 2: You kissed me too, And that's where so many victims
Speaker 2: feel shame and guilt and self culpability. What we do
Speaker 2: is we look back on our role in it and
Speaker 2: think of a thousand ways we could have and should
Speaker 2: have done it different.
Speaker 5: So what are some resources that you suggest for people
Speaker 5: who have gone through this.
Speaker 2: I think all victims need therapying. Of course, having a
Speaker 2: space to talk about this. I think that having a
Speaker 2: connection with other survivors is immensely important. When we have
Speaker 2: group sessions, the kinds of can connections that can be
Speaker 2: made between two individuals where we can say, hey, I
Speaker 2: see you're blaming yourself and you totally shouldn't and the
Speaker 2: other person says, yeah, well you're doing the same thing.
Speaker 2: It makes connections that we can't otherwise do in a
Speaker 2: one dimensional way or internally. We need to be much
Speaker 2: more outward about it, talking about it, saying hey, I
Speaker 2: feel really bad right now about the way that you
Speaker 2: know I'm feeling about it. And it might be on
Speaker 2: a random Tuesday when we're driving down the road. Feeling
Speaker 2: is not linear. It's kind of like that, right, and
Speaker 2: the same with these feelings and these emotions. So I
Speaker 2: think the first thing that survivors need to know is
Speaker 2: that there are spaces and there is help to be
Speaker 2: able to let all of these things out from the
Speaker 2: internal space where they just usually get worse and fester.
Speaker 2: So it's really important to find each other and speak
Speaker 2: about it and whatever it's setting is comfortable, be that
Speaker 2: in a therapy setting, be that in a group setting,
Speaker 2: be that just with friends or everybody else or whomever
Speaker 2: the person finds good. And then understanding our ability to
Speaker 2: create post traumatic growth, or we can say, you know,
Speaker 2: I choose to create an error of where I see
Speaker 2: that I was exploited in this way. So starting to
Speaker 2: put tools in survivors' hands to realize the power they
Speaker 2: have now even though they're nursing wounds to create that
Speaker 2: post traumatic growth, whatever that might look like. And again
Speaker 2: that is so immensely plural what it looks like to
Speaker 2: the individual, and they get to choose what that is.
Speaker 1: This has been so enlightening and helpful, and I just
Speaker 1: thank you so much for all of this information and
Speaker 1: just educating.
Speaker 5: Yeah, thank you very much. It's the education we need
Speaker 5: and I'm really grateful that you could spend some time
Speaker 5: with us to talk about it.
Speaker 2: Thank you so very much.
Speaker 1: I just want to share one more email we receive
Speaker 1: that really hit home because I think it's so easy
Speaker 1: to confuse positive attention and negative attention, and this listener
Speaker 1: summed it up so well and I think we both
Speaker 1: thought it was worth sharing. At the end of this episode, JN,
Speaker 1: do you mind reading it for us?
Speaker 5: Dear Jennifer and the whole crew of Betrayal. For three
Speaker 5: and a half years been the victim of a predator
Speaker 5: who has, unbeknownst to me until this podcast, been grooming
Speaker 5: me and sexually harassing me. He is a charming, brilliant
Speaker 5: and powerful CEO. I never had the nerve to tell
Speaker 5: him to stop until now. You have given me the
Speaker 5: power and the nerve, and you have opened my eyes
Speaker 5: to the fact that it is not flattering to be groomed.
Speaker 5: I've been in agony for three and a half years
Speaker 5: and it stops today.
Speaker 4: Cry.
Speaker 5: It's education, right, yeah, it's letting people know what this
Speaker 5: behavior is so hopefully they can recognize it.
Speaker 1: Little goes a long way, and we just want to
Speaker 1: help each other.
Speaker 2: That's right.
Speaker 1: If you'd like to reach out to the Betrayal team,
Speaker 1: email us at Betrayalpod at gmail dot com. That's Betrayal
Speaker 1: Pod gmail dot com. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts,
Speaker 1: a division of Glass Entertainment Group, in partnership with iHeart Podcasts.
Speaker 1: The show was executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Fason,
Speaker 1: hosted and produced by me Andrea Gunning, written and produced
Speaker 1: by Kerry Hartman, also produced by Ben Fetterman. Our iHeart
Speaker 1: team is Ali Perry and Jessica Crinchick. Sound editing and
Speaker 1: mixing done by Matt Tavecio. Betrayal's theme was composed by
Speaker 1: Oliver Bains. Music library provided by my Music and For
Speaker 1: more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app. Apple Podcasts
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