WEBVTT - Grooming | Jenifer's Story 0:00:00.240 --> 0:00:05.880 This podcast discusses sexual assault. Please take care while listening. 0:00:08.640 --> 0:00:11.200 All of a sudden, there he is standing there with 0:00:11.240 --> 0:00:14.360 this very abrupt information that I find you attractive. I 0:00:14.360 --> 0:00:17.520 think you're beautiful. I want to kiss you. It's very confusing. 0:00:17.560 --> 0:00:19.880 I mean, our brain is just on a cognitive level 0:00:19.960 --> 0:00:22.440 trying to make sense of what's unfolding right now, and 0:00:22.480 --> 0:00:24.480 then all of a sudden, we might find ourselves going 0:00:24.520 --> 0:00:27.520 along with it. Now we've shared a kiss, there usually 0:00:27.600 --> 0:00:29.560 is a feeling that there's a point of no return. 0:00:39.200 --> 0:00:48.559 I'm Andrea Gunning and this is Betrayal, Episode nine Grooming. 0:00:52.560 --> 0:00:55.320 During the course of our series Betrayal, we learned that 0:00:55.400 --> 0:00:59.400 Jennifer's then husband, Spencer, had dozens of affairs and sexually 0:00:59.400 --> 0:01:04.720 assaulted one of his students. Rachel. The student, bravely recounted 0:01:04.760 --> 0:01:09.920 her experience. On an earlier episode. She painstakenly recounted how 0:01:09.920 --> 0:01:13.119 a trusted adult in her life roomed her by first 0:01:13.200 --> 0:01:17.080 becoming a trusted mentor and confidant to a sexual predator. 0:01:17.959 --> 0:01:20.240 It was hard to hear, but a lesson in how 0:01:20.360 --> 0:01:22.120 adults manipulate children. 0:01:23.480 --> 0:01:26.759 I think I was more confused with a grown adult 0:01:27.319 --> 0:01:31.560 telling me that they had these feelings for me that 0:01:31.600 --> 0:01:34.600 you see in movies, you know, when someone confesses their feelings, 0:01:35.080 --> 0:01:39.000 and as a kid, it's shocking when someone tells you 0:01:39.040 --> 0:01:42.760 at the time that they love you and they have 0:01:42.840 --> 0:01:45.319 these feelings for you that they don't want to hide, 0:01:45.920 --> 0:01:48.760 and that you're special. It was a shock. 0:01:50.000 --> 0:01:55.200 I remember him specifically saying that he had never felt 0:01:55.200 --> 0:01:59.200 this way before with anyone, and that I was special 0:01:59.400 --> 0:02:00.560 to him. 0:02:00.680 --> 0:02:02.840 That's how he made me feel. He made me feel 0:02:02.840 --> 0:02:06.560 special and I could trust him if I ever needed 0:02:06.560 --> 0:02:08.400 to talk to him about anything personal. 0:02:09.200 --> 0:02:13.959 That interview triggered a slew of responses from many of you. Jen, 0:02:14.000 --> 0:02:16.200 would you mind reading one of those emails? 0:02:16.840 --> 0:02:21.280 Sure this may sound scattered because I'm a stay at 0:02:21.280 --> 0:02:25.000 home mom with four little ones, but I am Rachel. 0:02:25.919 --> 0:02:28.800 I was groomed by my teacher and coach. He was 0:02:28.919 --> 0:02:32.679 very calculated and prayed upon me, just like Rachel. I'd 0:02:32.720 --> 0:02:37.160 never dated anyone, was very insecure and innocent. I have 0:02:37.240 --> 0:02:41.400 felt so alone for so many years. Rachel was brave 0:02:41.680 --> 0:02:45.840 and a huge encouragement for me. Wow, I know right. 0:02:45.960 --> 0:02:52.040 It's that whole feeling alone thing that sometimes just makes 0:02:52.040 --> 0:02:55.160 you feel like you've done something wrong. But then when 0:02:55.200 --> 0:03:01.160 you hear other people tell a similar story, It's just like, Wow, 0:03:01.320 --> 0:03:04.920 this happens to other people, so it must not just 0:03:05.000 --> 0:03:08.320 be my fault, or it must not be my fault 0:03:08.360 --> 0:03:08.679 at all. 0:03:10.000 --> 0:03:12.600 And we're seeing this in the emails. There's so much 0:03:12.639 --> 0:03:17.120 relief and there's like a weight lifted. I mean, there 0:03:17.120 --> 0:03:19.120 were so many others just like the one that you 0:03:19.200 --> 0:03:23.160 just read, actually, including students of your ex husband. 0:03:23.520 --> 0:03:26.639 Yeah, we got a lot of feedback, but the ones 0:03:26.919 --> 0:03:30.359 that actually knew him or were one of his students 0:03:30.720 --> 0:03:36.600 at some point in his career. Oh man, it's sickening. 0:03:36.720 --> 0:03:40.920 And is sickening and it's consistent. Yeah, after we heard 0:03:41.040 --> 0:03:43.720 Rachel's story, you ended up speaking with two of the 0:03:43.720 --> 0:03:47.520 women that your husband at the time carried long term 0:03:47.560 --> 0:03:50.720 affairs with and these went on for years. One of 0:03:50.720 --> 0:03:53.440 the women was also a friend of yours at the time. 0:03:54.440 --> 0:03:55.680 Let's hear a little bit of that. 0:03:56.200 --> 0:03:59.160 Okay, the way I was talked to to feel good 0:03:59.160 --> 0:04:03.840 about myself to trust him, surely that happened to that 0:04:03.880 --> 0:04:06.960 same girl. I bet you any money it was the 0:04:07.000 --> 0:04:11.520 same steps. Just continuously building a relationship with somebody and 0:04:11.520 --> 0:04:15.120 making them feel good about themselves, but also making them 0:04:15.160 --> 0:04:19.479 feel like they're not doing anything bad. I had remembered 0:04:19.520 --> 0:04:24.120 saying like, I can't do this, this is wrong. Well, no, no, 0:04:24.200 --> 0:04:26.520 it's not wrong. You just can't help when two people 0:04:26.640 --> 0:04:31.160 just click like we do, it's rooming. It is grooming, 0:04:31.640 --> 0:04:34.680 and they don't mind taking the time to build that trust. 0:04:35.360 --> 0:04:38.839 We received a lot of emails about this particular episode. 0:04:39.000 --> 0:04:43.360 You know, out of all the episodes, this one getting 0:04:43.400 --> 0:04:47.760 the most feedback from was really interesting. I think it 0:04:47.839 --> 0:04:53.520 really started that whole discussion about what is grooming, what 0:04:53.680 --> 0:04:59.320 is predatory behavior? Can you be groomed as an adult? 0:05:00.200 --> 0:05:04.200 It was so interesting. So many people were just curious, 0:05:04.240 --> 0:05:08.080 but also had a lot of feelings about it. Do 0:05:08.160 --> 0:05:09.359 you mind sharing one of those? 0:05:09.960 --> 0:05:14.520 Sure? I learned so much from this podcast, but mostly 0:05:14.839 --> 0:05:17.279 I decided it was time to forgive myself from a 0:05:17.320 --> 0:05:20.320 relationship that has weighed on me for far too long. 0:05:21.320 --> 0:05:24.520 I don't make excuses, and I take full responsibility for 0:05:24.600 --> 0:05:28.320 my decisions. However, now I realized that I was a 0:05:28.360 --> 0:05:33.200 perfect target, vulnerable and desiring attention, even if it was 0:05:33.240 --> 0:05:37.240 the wrong kind of attention. This is nothing compared to 0:05:37.279 --> 0:05:39.799 what you went through. But Spence and this guy seemed 0:05:39.839 --> 0:05:43.599 to have similar characteristics regarding how they approached to others. 0:05:45.560 --> 0:05:47.880 Emails like that make me feel really great. 0:05:48.320 --> 0:05:54.520 Why there was empathy and forgiveness, and it's healing for 0:05:54.600 --> 0:05:58.640 you and the other women involved with Spencer. Hearing from 0:05:58.680 --> 0:06:01.680 the other women allows them to release that shame a 0:06:01.720 --> 0:06:02.160 little bit. 0:06:02.600 --> 0:06:05.640 You know, people would ask why did you need to 0:06:05.720 --> 0:06:11.000 talk to these women? And I understand that some people 0:06:11.000 --> 0:06:14.159 are going to think it's weird or strange or something 0:06:14.240 --> 0:06:19.240 like that. But that's how you understand someone else's side 0:06:19.279 --> 0:06:22.840 of things. You listen to what they went through and 0:06:22.880 --> 0:06:27.560 you realize that they were lied to, they were manipulated. 0:06:28.120 --> 0:06:29.000 But there were a lot. 0:06:28.800 --> 0:06:34.440 Of other big feelings about this episode that weren't the 0:06:34.480 --> 0:06:39.200 same reaction, especially when it came to your former friend. 0:06:39.880 --> 0:06:42.520 Yeah, you want me to read this one email we got, 0:06:43.040 --> 0:06:45.960 Yeah share. The woman who had an affair with a 0:06:45.960 --> 0:06:52.520 married man kept saying she was groomed. That is not grooming. Manipulative, yes, grooming. No, 0:06:53.680 --> 0:06:55.800 she was an adult and he was not in position 0:06:55.960 --> 0:06:59.479 of authority over her. This is an irresponsible use of 0:06:59.520 --> 0:07:01.720 this word and takes away from those of us who 0:07:01.800 --> 0:07:05.080 are really groomed. You may want to provide some additional 0:07:05.120 --> 0:07:09.720 information about what grooming is versus being manipulated by a sociopath. 0:07:10.600 --> 0:07:15.800 Language matters. And here's another one. The two women were grown, 0:07:15.840 --> 0:07:18.880 adult women and know right from wrong. I feel it's 0:07:19.000 --> 0:07:22.600 a dangerous viewpoint to treat women as helpless victims that 0:07:22.680 --> 0:07:26.760 are at the mercy of manipulative men. Adult women can 0:07:26.760 --> 0:07:30.480 make their own decisions. We are not weak, helpless creatures. 0:07:31.080 --> 0:07:33.560 I think it would be a far more effective message 0:07:33.640 --> 0:07:36.840 to hold the adult women accountable for their choices and 0:07:36.880 --> 0:07:38.760 not portray them as victims. 0:07:40.400 --> 0:07:44.680 When we read that email about how language matters, I 0:07:44.720 --> 0:07:47.480 was like, absolutely it does, and so let's have a 0:07:47.560 --> 0:07:51.920 larger conversation and educate the audience about what grooming is 0:07:52.560 --> 0:07:56.680 and really explore that conversation in this forum because so 0:07:56.800 --> 0:07:59.880 many people reached out about it, just wanting to know 0:08:00.160 --> 0:08:04.560 what it is, how it happens, and clarifying the difference 0:08:04.600 --> 0:08:07.200 between what happened to Rachel and these other women, or 0:08:07.240 --> 0:08:09.040 how are they similar, how are they dissimilar. 0:08:09.480 --> 0:08:14.080 I think we have been very responsible in telling this story, 0:08:14.160 --> 0:08:17.720 and so when we did get this feedback, we decided 0:08:17.840 --> 0:08:21.240 to seek out an expert to really help define this 0:08:21.320 --> 0:08:22.960 stuff absolutely. 0:08:23.080 --> 0:08:26.680 And look, our job was to tell your story and 0:08:26.800 --> 0:08:31.680 let women involved speak for themselves and tell their truth 0:08:31.760 --> 0:08:34.920 and their stories. And by any calculation, it took a 0:08:34.960 --> 0:08:36.920 lot of guts to do that. 0:08:37.120 --> 0:08:37.880 It really did. 0:08:38.400 --> 0:08:40.000 But it's also clear that we need to do some 0:08:40.040 --> 0:08:42.680 more work on defining grooming in a more clinical way, 0:08:43.040 --> 0:08:47.120 so we sought out a top expert. Jerrika Heinze is 0:08:47.160 --> 0:08:50.760 a resource specialist at the National Sexual Violence Resource Center 0:08:51.200 --> 0:08:54.679 and also the founder of the field Work Initiative, an 0:08:54.840 --> 0:08:58.920 organization which addresses issues of trauma and gendered violence in 0:08:58.960 --> 0:09:03.800 academia research field Work. Jerica is a cultural anthropologist who 0:09:03.800 --> 0:09:08.160 speaks internationally on issues of sexual harassment, abuses of power, 0:09:08.760 --> 0:09:09.760 and violence prevention. 0:09:10.800 --> 0:09:13.680 Thank you, Jerica for spending some time with us. 0:09:14.320 --> 0:09:17.440 Thank you so very much. I'm always very happy and 0:09:17.559 --> 0:09:21.720 glad to have these conversations, not because they're particularly uplifting, 0:09:22.120 --> 0:09:25.000 but more so because they've been so historically absent in 0:09:25.080 --> 0:09:27.679 conversations that have had in our society, and I think 0:09:27.840 --> 0:09:30.920 having these kind of illuminating conversations is the ultimate form 0:09:30.920 --> 0:09:33.600 of prevention. So thank you so much for the opportunities 0:09:33.720 --> 0:09:34.120 to do that. 0:09:34.480 --> 0:09:39.000 Of course, So, Jerica, how did you get into this 0:09:39.120 --> 0:09:43.959 line of work and become an expert in this field. 0:09:44.360 --> 0:09:49.760 I myself have experiences of grooming and that culminated into 0:09:50.240 --> 0:09:53.719 the sort of very subtle beginnings of sexual harassment, then 0:09:53.840 --> 0:09:57.679 much more apparent sexual harassment, and that culminated into a 0:09:57.760 --> 0:10:01.080 sexual assault. I was still a peach d student with 0:10:01.240 --> 0:10:05.200 an immense amount of trust and moral debt towards an advisor, 0:10:05.240 --> 0:10:08.320 a person who in my research field was helping and 0:10:08.400 --> 0:10:11.120 guiding me for many years, offering help and aid and 0:10:11.200 --> 0:10:13.800 trust in that individual who was significantly older than me. 0:10:14.520 --> 0:10:16.480 But I was still a very much an adult woman. 0:10:16.520 --> 0:10:19.840 I was in my late twenties. Since that there was 0:10:19.880 --> 0:10:23.000 another researcher who was raped and murdered nearby that area, 0:10:23.520 --> 0:10:26.680 and that was what fully initiated the creation of field 0:10:26.679 --> 0:10:30.600 work initiative. My work at National Sexual Violence Resource Center 0:10:31.000 --> 0:10:34.000 is looking very broadly at topics of sexual abuse, to 0:10:34.080 --> 0:10:38.080 gender violence, domestic violence, and thinking about survivor led and 0:10:38.200 --> 0:10:42.600 centered resources for folks. For the past three years, I 0:10:42.760 --> 0:10:46.760 have interviewed survivors of academic trauma and fieldwork trauma abuse 0:10:47.320 --> 0:10:50.679 and that kind of lended itself to a purpose of knowledge, 0:10:50.679 --> 0:10:53.600 that's training and informational where we shed light on this 0:10:53.679 --> 0:10:57.160 issue about grooming about the abuses of power and how 0:10:57.160 --> 0:10:58.320 those dynamics un full. 0:11:03.960 --> 0:11:06.160 So is it safe to say that your experience you 0:11:06.240 --> 0:11:10.280 went through as a PhD student changed the course of 0:11:10.320 --> 0:11:10.960 your career. 0:11:11.920 --> 0:11:15.960 Yeah, that's absolutely spot on. I mean I had this 0:11:16.080 --> 0:11:18.560 fear that I didn't want sexual harassment to be like 0:11:18.679 --> 0:11:21.800 my thing. I never wanted to do this work, and 0:11:22.400 --> 0:11:27.240 this work is continued simply because it's needed. No other 0:11:27.400 --> 0:11:30.360 organization exists that sheds light in the same way. 0:11:30.920 --> 0:11:33.840 So in doing this podcast, I spoke with not only 0:11:34.160 --> 0:11:37.440 the sexual assault victim, but also with a couple of 0:11:37.480 --> 0:11:40.880 the adult women that my ex husband had had affairs with. 0:11:41.840 --> 0:11:44.880 The question that came up a lot for us is 0:11:45.440 --> 0:11:48.360 how exactly do you define grooming? 0:11:49.480 --> 0:11:53.880 Grooming is the concept of putting an idea in somebody's mind, 0:11:54.040 --> 0:11:58.080 painting a picture that will align and allow them to 0:11:58.679 --> 0:12:03.080 perpetrate whatever acts they intend, and building that emotional connection 0:12:03.160 --> 0:12:05.800 with you know, the people they target, which allows them 0:12:05.840 --> 0:12:08.920 to set a stage of hiding in playing sight. He's 0:12:08.920 --> 0:12:10.520 a teacher, You would never do that is such a 0:12:10.520 --> 0:12:14.240 great neighbor and a coach that targeting earning of trust 0:12:14.400 --> 0:12:17.560 with the purpose of exploiting their own motives, be that 0:12:17.840 --> 0:12:22.839 through sexual abuse, financial abuse. We see grooming with elder adults, right, 0:12:23.160 --> 0:12:26.680 you know, FIDU shary abuse. So grooming is not anything 0:12:26.720 --> 0:12:30.880 that is specific to any one age group, any one individual. 0:12:31.240 --> 0:12:33.240 You know, anybody is susceptible to be groom. 0:12:34.440 --> 0:12:37.880 That is so helpful to know, because, as you know, 0:12:38.040 --> 0:12:42.320 my husband was involved with women of many ages and backgrounds, 0:12:42.559 --> 0:12:46.240 and so we've gotten so many questions and feedback about 0:12:46.280 --> 0:12:49.240 grooming in this case, and it's been a topic of 0:12:49.280 --> 0:12:50.240 so much debate. 0:12:52.080 --> 0:12:52.480 Jerica. 0:12:52.520 --> 0:12:56.439 One of the things that I feel like we noticed 0:12:56.840 --> 0:13:00.720 with a lot of my ex husband's communication with these 0:13:00.760 --> 0:13:07.240 women were to kind of prey on their vulnerabilities, saying 0:13:07.280 --> 0:13:10.800 things to them like how beautiful they are and I 0:13:10.920 --> 0:13:15.960 haven't felt this way before, lines like that, would you 0:13:16.080 --> 0:13:17.479 consider that grooming? 0:13:17.960 --> 0:13:18.160 Oh? 0:13:18.200 --> 0:13:25.920 Absolutely, praying on the vulnerabilities, those imaginations of what does 0:13:25.920 --> 0:13:28.880 that person need to hear to kind of turn the 0:13:28.960 --> 0:13:31.920 key for this situation to take flight. And you know 0:13:32.000 --> 0:13:34.640 what I noticed in the story of the friend, you know, 0:13:34.679 --> 0:13:38.280 at the bar of the initial contact, was that she 0:13:38.440 --> 0:13:40.679 was coming out of the bathroom and she had had 0:13:40.720 --> 0:13:42.240 a little bit of wine and that all of a 0:13:42.280 --> 0:13:45.640 sudden that abrupked he's standing there, he's saying these things. 0:13:46.000 --> 0:13:48.679 You know, if we look at our brains when something 0:13:48.880 --> 0:13:52.400 unexpected happens or traumatic or shocking, I mean, it's lit 0:13:52.480 --> 0:13:55.199 up like the fourth of July. There's confusion, what's happening 0:13:55.240 --> 0:13:56.960 and what does it mean? What's going on? And all 0:13:57.000 --> 0:13:59.520 of a sudden there are is standing there with this 0:13:59.640 --> 0:14:02.520 very information that you know, I find you attractive, I 0:14:02.520 --> 0:14:05.719 think you're beautiful. I want to kiss you. It's very confusing. 0:14:05.760 --> 0:14:08.079 I mean, our brain is just on a cognitive level 0:14:08.120 --> 0:14:10.600 trying to make sense of what's unfolding right now, and 0:14:10.640 --> 0:14:12.640 then all of a sudden we might find ourselves going 0:14:12.679 --> 0:14:15.199 along with it. Now we've shared a kiss, now that 0:14:15.240 --> 0:14:17.920 person has become part of it. It's not as we 0:14:18.000 --> 0:14:20.400 might imagine it would go, where we expect a person 0:14:20.400 --> 0:14:23.600 to say, excuse me, no, I can't do this, or 0:14:23.760 --> 0:14:28.280 you know, it's all very much preying on opportunism of 0:14:28.320 --> 0:14:31.640 the person not expecting, and also the idea that that 0:14:31.680 --> 0:14:35.120 person is special and that they're the only one, and 0:14:35.160 --> 0:14:38.040 that it's not really a bad thing because I see 0:14:38.080 --> 0:14:39.000 how special you are. 0:14:40.000 --> 0:14:43.920 How do you respond to people saying, well, they're an adult, 0:14:44.080 --> 0:14:48.440 they have agency that feels different than someone that doesn't 0:14:48.480 --> 0:14:51.840 have any sexual experience I was so young and really 0:14:51.840 --> 0:14:57.040 doesn't have context to the sexual and romantic world. And 0:14:57.080 --> 0:14:58.920 then if you have someone who has lived in the 0:14:58.960 --> 0:15:03.080 world longer and has had those experiences, they should bring 0:15:03.200 --> 0:15:05.160 that judgment to those scenarios. 0:15:05.600 --> 0:15:09.040 So how do you respond to you. 0:15:09.000 --> 0:15:12.680 Know, a grown woman or a grown adult has agency. 0:15:13.080 --> 0:15:16.920 There's almost sea of different ways and modes that vulnerabilities 0:15:16.920 --> 0:15:20.080 are kind of created and exploited. But there's no magic 0:15:20.200 --> 0:15:23.400 age or a set age in which we're actually fully 0:15:23.440 --> 0:15:26.840 formed adults that are completely moved on from any of 0:15:26.880 --> 0:15:28.640 the things that you know, we might have struggled with 0:15:28.720 --> 0:15:31.240 in our past or our traumas, and those are different 0:15:31.240 --> 0:15:33.440 for different people. So you know, somebody with childhood sexual 0:15:33.440 --> 0:15:35.520 abuse is going to have a different experience with that 0:15:35.600 --> 0:15:38.840 than somebody who did not have those experiences. So it's 0:15:38.880 --> 0:15:41.000 important not to be so kind of on and off 0:15:41.040 --> 0:15:43.960 about where we imagine adults agency lies, and more so 0:15:44.160 --> 0:15:46.920 think about trauma and as role and ol our thinking 0:15:46.920 --> 0:15:49.320 in all of our concepts of ourselves and how we 0:15:49.360 --> 0:15:50.080 move through the world. 0:15:50.440 --> 0:15:55.400 That's so interesting in the case of the two women 0:15:55.480 --> 0:15:59.200 I spoke to that are adults that had affairs. I 0:15:59.200 --> 0:16:05.840 think spence used making them feel beautiful specifically for them. 0:16:06.320 --> 0:16:10.040 Do groomers look for a certain personality type. 0:16:10.440 --> 0:16:13.920 I think grooming is quite across the board. There was 0:16:14.000 --> 0:16:17.360 grooming of neighbors and parents at school, There was grooming 0:16:17.360 --> 0:16:20.560 of the coworkers. Planting that idea about them being a 0:16:20.600 --> 0:16:24.560 trustworthy individual, and planting that idea about who they were 0:16:24.960 --> 0:16:27.960 is a form of grooming as well. We do know 0:16:28.080 --> 0:16:31.400 that when groomors see an opening of a vulnerability, they 0:16:31.560 --> 0:16:34.600 are really privy to stepping in and perceiving that and 0:16:34.640 --> 0:16:37.560 seeing and testing sort of where they can insert themselves 0:16:37.640 --> 0:16:40.280 and insert and yield that power over them and then 0:16:40.400 --> 0:16:44.640 over time sort of slowly portraying that image. But where 0:16:44.680 --> 0:16:47.280 the victim still has that strong image in their mind 0:16:47.320 --> 0:16:49.280 because there was such an impression made, and there was 0:16:49.320 --> 0:16:51.520 everybody else that's holding the same idea. 0:16:51.560 --> 0:16:55.160 And how is that different if it's different than being 0:16:55.160 --> 0:16:56.880 a sexual predator. 0:16:58.080 --> 0:17:00.600 We see at times with sexual predators, even though they 0:17:00.680 --> 0:17:04.199 might have a desire or an inclination, there may not 0:17:04.320 --> 0:17:09.439 in every instance be this premeditation, this grand orchestration that 0:17:09.480 --> 0:17:13.600 we see with grooming. Grooming is that false sense of 0:17:13.840 --> 0:17:17.480 an extreme emotional connection that the individual builds over time. 0:17:18.200 --> 0:17:20.880 They're also never the same person twice. If we ask 0:17:20.960 --> 0:17:22.800 an array of people who they are and what they 0:17:22.840 --> 0:17:25.680 know about them, we might hear things about that person 0:17:25.720 --> 0:17:28.480 we would never even imagine are possible. Because there's a 0:17:28.680 --> 0:17:31.520 portrait that a groomer paints and they sort of hand 0:17:31.560 --> 0:17:32.080 it to you. 0:17:32.680 --> 0:17:36.000 That makes so much sense to me. So much of 0:17:36.040 --> 0:17:40.760 this project has been about trying to see the many 0:17:40.840 --> 0:17:46.960 different portraits my ex husband painted to others. Spence painted 0:17:47.080 --> 0:17:53.440 himself different ways around different people. To me, he painted 0:17:53.560 --> 0:17:59.040 himself as the perfect husband and I was his perfect wife. 0:17:59.040 --> 0:18:01.920 And you just usually accepted, as we do in society. 0:18:02.160 --> 0:18:04.040 If I were to tell you I was an astronaut, 0:18:04.280 --> 0:18:06.680 you know what reason would you not believe that that's true, 0:18:07.080 --> 0:18:09.359 especially if I say it with confidence and have a 0:18:09.400 --> 0:18:12.040 certain way in which I carry myself with that information. 0:18:12.480 --> 0:18:17.040 And so grooming is that sense of dependence and overall 0:18:17.560 --> 0:18:22.240 vulnerability that's created between an individual and the groomer, and 0:18:22.440 --> 0:18:25.840 it's all done for the purpose of orchestrating their own motives, 0:18:25.960 --> 0:18:29.159 be those sexual, be those financial, maybe just the power 0:18:29.400 --> 0:18:29.720 of it. 0:18:30.119 --> 0:18:35.040 He orchestrated an emotional connection with many many of these women, 0:18:35.200 --> 0:18:39.720 obviously with the sexual assault victim herself, but also I 0:18:39.760 --> 0:18:42.600 think with a lot of these other grown women. 0:18:49.280 --> 0:18:52.119 So when we were thinking through questions that we wanted 0:18:52.160 --> 0:18:56.879 to ask you, Jerica, one of the questions was how 0:18:56.880 --> 0:18:58.560 do victims who. 0:18:58.440 --> 0:19:01.920 Are experienced grooming shut it down? 0:19:03.040 --> 0:19:06.679 And as I was sitting with that phrase shut it down, 0:19:07.280 --> 0:19:10.840 it just didn't sit right with me because it just 0:19:10.880 --> 0:19:14.680 felt like it was on the victim. You know, those 0:19:14.720 --> 0:19:17.840 who do not shut it down are weak. Those who 0:19:17.880 --> 0:19:20.919 do not shut it down need to work on themselves. 0:19:20.920 --> 0:19:23.880 They're not strong. And there's like this like weird inherent 0:19:23.960 --> 0:19:26.320 criticism to that phrase. 0:19:27.520 --> 0:19:29.800 There usually is a feeling that there's a point of 0:19:29.800 --> 0:19:32.800 no return that if that person who knew that you 0:19:32.840 --> 0:19:34.359 told someone that you're going to be in trouble or 0:19:34.520 --> 0:19:36.240 that oh well we kissed now you know, the cats 0:19:36.240 --> 0:19:39.239 out of the bag? Yeah, how can victims know that, 0:19:39.320 --> 0:19:42.359 no matter what has happened, there's always a way to 0:19:42.560 --> 0:19:46.160 step outside of that dynamic and getting them to realize 0:19:46.320 --> 0:19:48.280 that that's their right and that they have the freedom 0:19:48.320 --> 0:19:50.639 to do it, and that you know, they're going to 0:19:50.640 --> 0:19:52.400 be believed and they're not going to be blamed things 0:19:52.480 --> 0:19:57.399 like that, and I think that telling survivors that no 0:19:57.480 --> 0:20:01.240 matter how long something has gone on, no matter what 0:20:01.280 --> 0:20:04.560 has happened, that you always have a right to set 0:20:04.600 --> 0:20:07.640 it down by saying and expressing it. It's like, oh, 0:20:07.640 --> 0:20:09.840 what so much has already happened. I have to somehow 0:20:10.320 --> 0:20:12.320 spin it. I have to somehow make it okay or 0:20:12.359 --> 0:20:14.879 make it better, or there's some sort of burden about 0:20:15.000 --> 0:20:17.639 it not being as bad, or I have to somehow 0:20:17.880 --> 0:20:19.600 go down with the ship, or you know, there's so 0:20:19.600 --> 0:20:21.680 many ways people might feel it, and just letting people 0:20:21.680 --> 0:20:24.360 know no matter what has happened, no matter how long 0:20:24.400 --> 0:20:27.280 it's gone on, you always have the right to say, 0:20:27.320 --> 0:20:29.040 you know what, I'm going to speak my truth about this, 0:20:29.040 --> 0:20:32.200 this has been happening, this has happened, and that there's 0:20:32.280 --> 0:20:35.359 always that exit button that usually begins with telling someone 0:20:35.400 --> 0:20:39.520 we trust, usually begins with a feeling empowered to do 0:20:39.560 --> 0:20:42.360 that because there's an immense amount of fear. It's not easy, 0:20:42.640 --> 0:20:44.960 it's scary, it's extremely scary. It's one of the scariest 0:20:45.000 --> 0:20:47.800 things you can imagine is not knowing what's possible. 0:20:47.720 --> 0:20:50.800 When you're scared or operating from a place of fear. 0:20:51.440 --> 0:20:54.320 It's really hard to think rationally. 0:20:55.240 --> 0:20:57.919 We become hyper vigilant when we have trauma, and that 0:20:58.000 --> 0:21:02.119 hypervigilance creates this thing our brain where we have to 0:21:02.200 --> 0:21:05.280 imagine the worst case scenario is going to happen next, 0:21:05.680 --> 0:21:08.000 We're going to be blamed. No one's going to believe us. 0:21:08.240 --> 0:21:10.760 They're going to use some sort of revenge. That's why 0:21:10.800 --> 0:21:13.880 we need more trauma informed education, starting from a young age, 0:21:14.160 --> 0:21:15.840 why we need these kinds of conversations. 0:21:16.359 --> 0:21:21.240 Absolutely. One feeling I get from some of these women 0:21:21.240 --> 0:21:25.119 that I've spoken with is they were really upset and 0:21:25.240 --> 0:21:27.960 angry with themselves for falling for it. 0:21:28.840 --> 0:21:31.600 I'd say one of the paramount things to understand about 0:21:31.640 --> 0:21:35.760 blooming is that the groomer has implicated you in this event. 0:21:36.640 --> 0:21:39.920 You've played a role. And this is why I think 0:21:39.960 --> 0:21:43.240 for you, Jen, as the core victim, as the wife, 0:21:43.480 --> 0:21:45.600 we can't really look back and think that there was 0:21:45.640 --> 0:21:49.959 any even red flags. But thinking to the fact that 0:21:50.240 --> 0:21:54.439 all of these victims themselves played in some way, you know, 0:21:54.760 --> 0:21:57.000 the groomer implicated them. Well, I kissed you and you 0:21:57.040 --> 0:22:00.080 didn't push me away. You know you could have. I 0:22:00.280 --> 0:22:02.280 know at any moment you didn't have to text me back. 0:22:02.600 --> 0:22:04.600 You could have told the police at any moment if 0:22:04.640 --> 0:22:06.320 you didn't want to, and you could have walked away. 0:22:06.359 --> 0:22:08.400 You know, this is the way in which it happens. 0:22:08.480 --> 0:22:11.240 And so what happens is the victims feel this as 0:22:11.600 --> 0:22:15.040 the first surge of guilt. And that's how rumors are 0:22:15.080 --> 0:22:19.439 so successful. They find that little wedge between where they 0:22:19.440 --> 0:22:22.160 can really bring out vulnerabilities in the sense that they're 0:22:22.160 --> 0:22:25.080 going to ameliorate them, but also drive that wedge. Well, 0:22:25.160 --> 0:22:27.359 yeah this is bad, but you know I didn't act alone. 0:22:27.400 --> 0:22:30.720 You kissed me too, And that's where so many victims 0:22:30.760 --> 0:22:34.800 feel shame and guilt and self culpability. What we do 0:22:34.880 --> 0:22:36.480 is we look back on our role in it and 0:22:36.520 --> 0:22:38.320 think of a thousand ways we could have and should 0:22:38.320 --> 0:22:39.040 have done it different. 0:22:39.840 --> 0:22:44.360 So what are some resources that you suggest for people 0:22:44.880 --> 0:22:45.960 who have gone through this. 0:22:46.400 --> 0:22:49.560 I think all victims need therapying. Of course, having a 0:22:49.600 --> 0:22:53.280 space to talk about this. I think that having a 0:22:53.359 --> 0:22:58.040 connection with other survivors is immensely important. When we have 0:22:58.119 --> 0:23:01.040 group sessions, the kinds of can connections that can be 0:23:01.119 --> 0:23:04.080 made between two individuals where we can say, hey, I 0:23:04.119 --> 0:23:07.119 see you're blaming yourself and you totally shouldn't and the 0:23:07.160 --> 0:23:09.040 other person says, yeah, well you're doing the same thing. 0:23:09.320 --> 0:23:11.879 It makes connections that we can't otherwise do in a 0:23:11.920 --> 0:23:15.040 one dimensional way or internally. We need to be much 0:23:15.040 --> 0:23:17.879 more outward about it, talking about it, saying hey, I 0:23:17.920 --> 0:23:20.399 feel really bad right now about the way that you 0:23:20.400 --> 0:23:22.399 know I'm feeling about it. And it might be on 0:23:22.440 --> 0:23:25.399 a random Tuesday when we're driving down the road. Feeling 0:23:25.520 --> 0:23:27.919