Speaker 1: This podcast discusses sexual assault. Please take care while listening.
Speaker 1: All of a sudden, there he is standing there with
Speaker 1: this very abrupt information that you know, I find you attractive.
Speaker 1: I think you're beautiful. I want to kiss you. It's
Speaker 1: very confusing. I mean, our brain is just on a
Speaker 1: cognitive level trying to make sense of what's unfolding right now,
Speaker 1: and then all of a sudden we might find ourselves
Speaker 1: going along with it. Now we've shared a kiss, there
Speaker 1: usually is a feeling that there's a point of no return.
Speaker 1: I'm Andrea Gunning and this is Betrayal, Episode nine Grooming.
Speaker 1: During the course of our series Betrayal, we learned that
Speaker 1: Jennifer's then husband, Spencer, had dozens of affairs and sexually
Speaker 1: assaulted one of his students. Rachel, the student, bravely recounted
Speaker 1: her experience. On an earlier episode. She painstakenly recounted how
Speaker 1: a trusted adult in her life roomed her by first
Speaker 1: becoming a trusted mentor and confidant to a sexual predator.
Speaker 1: It was hard to hear, but a lesson in how
Speaker 1: adults manipulate children. I think I was more confused with
Speaker 1: a grown adult telling me that they had these feelings
Speaker 1: for me that you see it in movies, you know,
Speaker 1: when someone confesses their feelings, and as a kid, it's
Speaker 1: shocking when someone tells you at the time that they
Speaker 1: love you and they have these feelings for you that
Speaker 1: they don't want to hide, and that you're special. It
Speaker 1: was a shock. I remember him specifically saying that he
Speaker 1: had never felt this way before with anyone, and that
Speaker 1: I was special to him. That's how he made me feel.
Speaker 1: He made me feel special and I could trust him
Speaker 1: if I ever needed to talk to him about anything personal.
Speaker 1: That interview triggered a slew of responses from many of you. Jen,
Speaker 1: would you mind reading one of those emails? Sure this
Speaker 1: may sound scattered because I'm a stay at home mom
Speaker 1: with four little ones, but I am Rachel. I was
Speaker 1: groomed by my teacher and coach. He was very calculated
Speaker 1: and preyed upon me, just like Rachel. I'd never dated anyone,
Speaker 1: was very insecure and innocent. I have felt so alone
Speaker 1: for so many years. Rachel was brave and a huge
Speaker 1: encouragement for me. Wow, I know right. It's that whole
Speaker 1: feeling alone thing that sometimes just makes you feel like
Speaker 1: you've done something wrong. But then when you hear other
Speaker 1: people tell a similar story, it's just like, Wow, this
Speaker 1: happens to other people, so it must not just be
Speaker 1: my fault, or it must not be my fault at all.
Speaker 1: And we're seeing this in the emails or so much
Speaker 1: relief and there's like a weight lifted. I mean, there
Speaker 1: were so many others just like the one that you
Speaker 1: just read, actually, including students of your ex husband. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we got a lot of feedback, but the ones that
Speaker 1: actually knew him or were one of his students at
Speaker 1: some point in his career. Oh man, it's sickening in
Speaker 1: a sickening and it's consistent. Yeah, after we heard Rachel's story,
Speaker 1: you ended up speaking with two of the women that
Speaker 1: your husband at the time carried long term affairs with
Speaker 1: and these went on for years. One of the women
Speaker 1: was also a friend of yours at the time. Let's
Speaker 1: hear a little bit of that. Okay, the way I
Speaker 1: was talked to to feel good about myself, to trust him,
Speaker 1: surely that happened to that same girl. I bet you
Speaker 1: any money it was the same steps. Just continuously building
Speaker 1: a relationship with somebody and making them feel good about themselves,
Speaker 1: but also making them feel like they're not doing anything bad.
Speaker 1: I had remembered saying like, I can't do this, this
Speaker 1: is wrong. Well, no, no, it's not wrong. You just
Speaker 1: can't help when two people just click like we do,
Speaker 1: it's rooming. It is rooming, and they don't mind taking
Speaker 1: the time to build that trust. We received a lot
Speaker 1: of emails about this particular episode. You know, out of
Speaker 1: all the episodes, this one getting the most feedback from
Speaker 1: was really interesting. I think it really started that whole
Speaker 1: discussion about what is grooming, what is predatory behavior? Can
Speaker 1: you be groomed as an adult? It was so interesting.
Speaker 1: So many people were just curious but also had a
Speaker 1: lot of feelings about it. Do you mind sharing one
Speaker 1: of those? Sure? I learned so much from this podcast,
Speaker 1: but mostly I decided it was time to forgive myself
Speaker 1: from a relationship that has weighed on me for far
Speaker 1: too long. I don't make excuses, and I take full
Speaker 1: responsibility for my decisions. However, now I realized that I
Speaker 1: was a perfect target, vulnerable and desiring attention, even if
Speaker 1: it was the wrong kind of attention. This is nothing
Speaker 1: compared to what you went through. But Spence in this
Speaker 1: guy seemed to have similar characteristics regarding how they approached others.
Speaker 1: Emails like that made me feel really great. Why there
Speaker 1: was empathy and forgiveness and it's healing for you and
Speaker 1: the other women involved. A spencer hearing from the other
Speaker 1: women allows them to release that shame a little bit.
Speaker 1: You know, people would ask why did you need to
Speaker 1: talk to these women? And I understand that some people
Speaker 1: are going to think it's weird or strange or something
Speaker 1: like that. But that's how you understand someone else's side
Speaker 1: of things. You listen to what they went through and
Speaker 1: you realize that they were lied to, they were manipulated.
Speaker 1: But there were a lot of other big feelings about
Speaker 1: this episode that weren't the same reaction, especially when it
Speaker 1: came to your former friend. Yeah, you want me to
Speaker 1: read this one email we got, Yeah shared the woman
Speaker 1: who had an affair with a married man kept saying
Speaker 1: she was groomed. That is not grooming. Manipulative, yes, grooming. No,
Speaker 1: she was an adult and he was not in position
Speaker 1: of authority over her. This is an irresponsible use of
Speaker 1: this word and takes away from those of us who
Speaker 1: are really groomed. You may want to provide some additional
Speaker 1: information about what grooming is versus being manipulated by a sociopath.
Speaker 1: Language matters. And here's another one. The two women were
Speaker 1: grown adult women, and no right from wrong. I feel
Speaker 1: it's a dangerous viewpoint to treat women as helpless victims
Speaker 1: that are at the mercy of manipulative men. Adult women
Speaker 1: can make their own decisions. We are not weak, helpless creatures.
Speaker 1: I think it would be a far more effective message
Speaker 1: to hold the adult women accountable for their choices and
Speaker 1: not portray them as victims. When we read that email
Speaker 1: about how language matters, I was like, absolutely it does,
Speaker 1: and so let's have a larger conversation and educate the
Speaker 1: audience about what grooming is and really explore that conversation
Speaker 1: in this forum because so many people reached out about it,
Speaker 1: just wanting to know what it is, how it happens,
Speaker 1: and clarifying the difference between what happened to Rachel and
Speaker 1: these other women, or how are they similar, how are
Speaker 1: they dissimilar. I think we have been very responsible in
Speaker 1: telling this story, and so when we did get this feedback,
Speaker 1: we decided to seek out an expert to really help
Speaker 1: define this stuff absolutely. And look, our job was to
Speaker 1: tell your story and let women involved speak for themselves
Speaker 1: and tell their truth and their stories. And by any calculation,
Speaker 1: it took a lot of guts to do that. It
Speaker 1: really did. But it's also clear that we need to
Speaker 1: do some more work on defining grooming in a more
Speaker 1: clinical way, so we sought out a top expert. Jerika
Speaker 1: Heinzie is a resource specialist at the National Sexual Violence
Speaker 1: Resource Center and also the founder of the field Work Initiative,
Speaker 1: an organization which addresses issues of trauma and gendered violence
Speaker 1: in academia research field Work. Jerika is a cultural anthropologist
Speaker 1: who speaks internationally on issues of sexual harassment, abuses of power,
Speaker 1: and violence prevention. Thank you, Jericho for spending some time
Speaker 1: with us. Thank you so very much. I'm always very
Speaker 1: happy and glad to have these conversations, not because they're
Speaker 1: particularly uplifting, but more so because they've been so historically
Speaker 1: absent in conversations that are had in our society, and
Speaker 1: I think having these kind of illuminating conversations is the
Speaker 1: ultimate form of prevention. So thank you so much for
Speaker 1: opportunity to do that. Of course, So, Jerika, how did
Speaker 1: you get into this line of work and become an
Speaker 1: expert in this field. I myself have experiences of grooming
Speaker 1: and that culminated into the sort of very subtle beginnings
Speaker 1: of sexual harassment than much more apparent sexual harassment, and
Speaker 1: that culminated into a sexual assault. It was still a
Speaker 1: peach student with an immense amount of trust and moral
Speaker 1: debt towards an adviser, a person who in my research
Speaker 1: field was helping and guiding me for many years, offering
Speaker 1: help and aid and trust in that individual who was
Speaker 1: significantly older than me, but I was still a very
Speaker 1: much an adult woman. I was in my late twenties.
Speaker 1: Since that there was another researcher who was raped and
Speaker 1: murdered nearby that area, and that was what fully initiated
Speaker 1: the creation of field work initiative. My work at National
Speaker 1: Sexual Violence Resource Center is looking very broadly at topics
Speaker 1: of the sexual abuse or gendered violence, domestic violence, and
Speaker 1: thinking about survivor led and centured resources for folks. For
Speaker 1: the past three years, I have interviewed survivors of academic
Speaker 1: trauma and field work trauma abuse, and that kind of
Speaker 1: lended itself to a corpoise of knowledge that's training and
Speaker 1: informational where we shed light on this issue about grooming,
Speaker 1: about the abuses of power and how those dynamics and
Speaker 1: full So is it safe to say that your experience
Speaker 1: you went through as a Page D student change the
Speaker 1: course of your career. Yeah, that's absolutely spot on. I
Speaker 1: mean I had this fear that I didn't want sexual
Speaker 1: harassment to be like my thing. I never wanted to
Speaker 1: do this work, and this work has continued simply because
Speaker 1: it's needed. No other organization exists that sheds light in
Speaker 1: the same way. So in doing this podcast, I spoke
Speaker 1: with not only the sexual assault victim, but also with
Speaker 1: a couple of the adult women that my ex husband
Speaker 1: had had affairs with. The question that came up a
Speaker 1: lot for us is how exactly do you define grooming?
Speaker 1: Grooming is a concept of putting an idea in somebody's mind,
Speaker 1: painting a picture that will align and allow them to
Speaker 1: perpetrate whatever acts they intend, and building that emotional connection
Speaker 1: where you know the people they target, which allows them
Speaker 1: to set a stage of hiding in plain sight. He's
Speaker 1: a teacher, he would never do that. He's such a
Speaker 1: great neighbor and a coach. That targeting earning of trust
Speaker 1: with the purpose of exploiting their own motives, be that
Speaker 1: through sexual abuse, financial abuse. We see grooming with elder adults, right,
Speaker 1: you know, fiduciary abuse. So grooming is not anything that
Speaker 1: is specific to anyone age group, any one individual. You know,
Speaker 1: anybody is susceptible to be groom. That is so helpful
Speaker 1: to know, because, as you know, my husband was involved
Speaker 1: with women of many ages and backgrounds, and so we've
Speaker 1: gotten so many questions and feedback about grooming in this case,
Speaker 1: and it's been a topic of so much debate. Jericha.
Speaker 1: One of the things that I feel like we noticed
Speaker 1: with a lot of my ex husband's communication with these
Speaker 1: women were to kind of prey on their vulnerabilities, saying
Speaker 1: things to them like how beautiful they are and I
Speaker 1: haven't felt this way before, lines like that, Would you
Speaker 1: consider that grooming? Oh? Absolutely, praying on the vulnerabilities, those
Speaker 1: imaginations of what does that person need to hear to
Speaker 1: kind of turn the key for this situation to take flight.
Speaker 1: And you know what I noticed in the story of
Speaker 1: the friend, you know, at the bar of the initial contact,
Speaker 1: was that she was coming out of the bathroom and
Speaker 1: she had had a little bit of wine, and that
Speaker 1: all of a sudden, that abrupt. He's standing there, he's
Speaker 1: saying these things. You know, if we look at our
Speaker 1: brains when something unexpected happens or traumatic or shocking, I mean,
Speaker 1: it's lit up like the fourth of July. There's confusion,
Speaker 1: what's happening or what does it mean? What's going on?
Speaker 1: And all of a sudden, there he is standing there
Speaker 1: with this very information that you know, I find you attractive,
Speaker 1: I think you're beautiful. I want to kiss you. It's
Speaker 1: very confusing. I mean, our brain is just on a
Speaker 1: cognitive level trying to make sense of what's unfolding right now,
Speaker 1: and then all of a sudden we might find ourselves
Speaker 1: going along with it. Now we've shared a kiss, now
Speaker 1: that person has become part of it. It's not as
Speaker 1: we might imagine it would go, where we expect a
Speaker 1: person to say, excuse me, no, I can't do this,
Speaker 1: or you know, it's all very much preying on opportunism
Speaker 1: of the person not expecting and also the idea that
Speaker 1: that person is special and that they're the only one,
Speaker 1: and that it's not really a bad thing because I
Speaker 1: see how specially you are. How do you respond to
Speaker 1: people saying, well, they're an adult, they have agency that
Speaker 1: feels different than someone that doesn't have any sexual experience
Speaker 1: that was so young and really doesn't have context to
Speaker 1: the sexual and romantic world. And then if you have
Speaker 1: someone who has lived in the world longer and has
Speaker 1: had those experiences, they should bring that judgment to those scenarios.
Speaker 1: So how do you respond to you know, a grown
Speaker 1: woman or a grown adult has agency. There's a whole
Speaker 1: sea of different ways and modes that vulnerabilities are kind
Speaker 1: of created and exploited. But there's no magic age or
Speaker 1: a set age in which we are actually fully formed
Speaker 1: adults that are completely moved on from any of the
Speaker 1: things that you know, we might have struggled within our
Speaker 1: past or our traumas, and those are different for different people.
Speaker 1: You know, somebody with childhood sexual abuse, it's going to
Speaker 1: have a different experience with that than somebody who did
Speaker 1: not have those experiences. And so it's important not to
Speaker 1: be so kind of on and off about where we
Speaker 1: imagine adults agency lies. And more so think about trauma
Speaker 1: and it's role in all of our thinking, in all
Speaker 1: of our concepts of ourselves and how we move through
Speaker 1: the world. That's so interesting in the case of the
Speaker 1: two women I spoke to that are adults that had affairs.
Speaker 1: I think Spence used making them feel beautiful specifically for them.
Speaker 1: Do groomers look for a certain personality type. I think
Speaker 1: grooming is quite across the board. There was grooming of
Speaker 1: neighbors and parents at school, There was grooming of the coworkers.
Speaker 1: Planting that idea about them being a trustworthy individual and
Speaker 1: planting that idea about who they were is a form
Speaker 1: of grooming as well. We do know that when groomors
Speaker 1: see an opening of a vulnerability, they are really privy
Speaker 1: to stepping in and perceiving that and seeing and testing
Speaker 1: sort of where they can insert themselves and insert and
Speaker 1: yield that power over them and then over time sort
Speaker 1: of slowly portraying that image, but where the victim still
Speaker 1: has that strong image in their mind because there was
Speaker 1: such an impression made, and there was everybody else's holding
Speaker 1: the same idea. And how is that different if it's
Speaker 1: different than being a sexual predator we see at times
Speaker 1: with sexual predators, even though they might have a desire
Speaker 1: or an inclination, there may not in every instance be
Speaker 1: this premeditation, this grand orchestration that we see with grooming.
Speaker 1: Grooming is that false sense of an extreme emotional connection
Speaker 1: that the individual builds over time. They're also never the
Speaker 1: same person twice. If we ask an array of people
Speaker 1: who they are and what they know about them, we
Speaker 1: might hear things about that person we would never even
Speaker 1: imagine are possible. Because there's a portrait that a groom
Speaker 1: or paints and they sort of hand it to you.
Speaker 1: That makes so much sense to me. So much of
Speaker 1: this project has been about trying to see the many
Speaker 1: different portraits my ex husband painted to others. Spence painted
Speaker 1: himself different ways around different people. To me, he painted
Speaker 1: himself as the perfect husband and I was his perfect wife,
Speaker 1: and you just usually accepted, as we do in society.
Speaker 1: If I were to tell you I was an astronaut,
Speaker 1: you know what reason would you not believe that that's true,
Speaker 1: especially if I say it with confidence and have a
Speaker 1: certain way in which I carry myself with that information.
Speaker 1: And so grooming is that sense of dependence and overall
Speaker 1: vulnerability that's created between an individual and the groomer, and
Speaker 1: it's all done for the purpose of orchestrating their own motives,
Speaker 1: be those sexual, be those financial, maybe just the power
Speaker 1: of it he orchestrated an emotional connection with many many
Speaker 1: of these women, obviously with the sexual assault victim herself,
Speaker 1: but also I think with a lot of these other
Speaker 1: grown women. So when we were thinking through questions that
Speaker 1: we wanted to ask you, Dereka, one of the questions
Speaker 1: was how to victims who are experienced grooming shut it down?
Speaker 1: And as I was sitting with that phrase shut it down,
Speaker 1: it just didn't sit right with me because it just
Speaker 1: felt like it was on the victim. You know, those
Speaker 1: who do not shut it down are weak. Those who
Speaker 1: do not shut it down need to work on themselves.
Speaker 1: They're not strong. And there's like this like weird inherent
Speaker 1: criticism to that phrase. There usually is a feeling that
Speaker 1: there's a point of no return that if that person
Speaker 1: who knew that you told someone that you're going to
Speaker 1: be in trouble or that oh well we kiss now,
Speaker 1: you know, the cats out of the bag? Yeah, how
Speaker 1: can victims know that, no matter what has happened, there's
Speaker 1: always a way to step outside of that dynamic and
Speaker 1: getting them to realize that that's their right and that
Speaker 1: they have the freedom to do it, and that you
Speaker 1: know they're going to be believed and they're not going
Speaker 1: to be blamed things like that. And I think that
Speaker 1: telling survivors that no matter how long something has gone on,
Speaker 1: no matter what has happened, that you always have a
Speaker 1: right to set it down by saying and expressing it.
Speaker 1: It's like, oh, what so much has already happened. I
Speaker 1: have to somehow spin it. I have to somehow make
Speaker 1: it okay or make it better, or there's some sort
Speaker 1: of burden about it not being as bad, or I
Speaker 1: have to somehow go down with the ship, or you know,
Speaker 1: there's so many ways people might feel it, and just
Speaker 1: letting people know no matter what has happened, no matter
Speaker 1: how long it's gone on, you always have the right
Speaker 1: to say, you know what, I'm going to speak my
Speaker 1: truth about this, this has been happening, this has happened,
Speaker 1: and that there's always that exit button. It usually begins
Speaker 1: with telling someone we trust, usually begins with a feeling
Speaker 1: empowered to do that because there's an immense amount of fear.
Speaker 1: It's not easy, it's scary. It's extremely scary. It's one
Speaker 1: of the scariest things you can imagine is not knowing
Speaker 1: what's possible when you're scared or operating from a place
Speaker 1: of fear. It's really hard to think rationally. We become
Speaker 1: hypervigilant when we have trauma, and that hypervigilance creates this
Speaker 1: thing our brain where we have to imagine the worst
Speaker 1: case scenario is going to happen next. We're going to
Speaker 1: be blamed. No one's going to believe us, They're going
Speaker 1: to use some sort of revenge. That's why we need
Speaker 1: more trauma informed education, starting from a young age, why
Speaker 1: we need these kinds of conversations. Absolutely. One feeling I
Speaker 1: get from some of these women that I've spoken with
Speaker 1: is they were really upset and angry with themselves for
Speaker 1: falling for it. I'd say one of the paramount things
Speaker 1: to understand about grooming is that the groomer has implicated
Speaker 1: you in this event. You've played a role. And this
Speaker 1: is why I think for you, Jen, as the core victim,
Speaker 1: as the wife, we can't really look back and think
Speaker 1: that there was any even red flags. But thinking too,
Speaker 1: the fact that all of these victims of selves played
Speaker 1: in some way, you know, the groomer implicated them. Well,
Speaker 1: I kissed you and you didn't push me away. You know,
Speaker 1: you could have said no at any moment. You didn't
Speaker 1: have to text me back. You could have told the
Speaker 1: police at any moment if you didn't want to, and
Speaker 1: you could have walked away. You know, this is the
Speaker 1: way in which it happens. And so what happens is
Speaker 1: the victims feel this as the first surge of guilt.
Speaker 1: And that's how rumors are so successful. They find that
Speaker 1: little wedge between where they can really bring out vulnerabilities
Speaker 1: in the sense that they're going to ameliorate them, but
Speaker 1: also drive that wedge wall. Yeah, this is bad, but
Speaker 1: you know I didn't act alone. You kissed me too,
Speaker 1: And that's where so many victims feel shame and guilt
Speaker 1: and self culpability. What we do is we look back
Speaker 1: on our role in it and think of a thousand
Speaker 1: ways we could have and should have done it different.
Speaker 1: So what are some resources that you suggest for people
Speaker 1: who have gone through this. I think all victims need
Speaker 1: there being, of course, having a space to talk about this.
Speaker 1: I think that having a connection with other survivors is
Speaker 1: immensely important. When we have group sessions, the kinds of
Speaker 1: connections that can be made between two individuals where we
Speaker 1: can say, hey, I see you're blaming yourself and you
Speaker 1: totally shouldn't and the other person says, yeah, well you're
Speaker 1: doing the same thing. It makes connections that we can't
Speaker 1: otherwise do in a one dimensional way or internally. We
Speaker 1: need to be much more outward about it, talking about it,
Speaker 1: saying hey, I feel really bad right now about the
Speaker 1: way that you know I'm feeling about it. And it
Speaker 1: might be on a random Tuesday when we're driving down
Speaker 1: the road. Feeling is not linear. It's kind of like that, right,
Speaker 1: and the same with these feelings and these emotions. So
Speaker 1: I think the first thing that survivors need to know
Speaker 1: is that there are spaces and there is help to
Speaker 1: be able to let all of these things out from
Speaker 1: the internal space where they just usually get worse and fester.
Speaker 1: So it's really important to find each other and speak
Speaker 1: about it, and whatever it's setting is comfortable, be that
Speaker 1: in a therapy setting, be that in a group setting,
Speaker 1: be that just with friends or everybody else or whomever
Speaker 1: the person finds good. And then understanding our ability to
Speaker 1: create post traumatic growth where we can say, you know,
Speaker 1: I choose to create an error of where I see
Speaker 1: that I was exploited in this way. So starting to
Speaker 1: put tools and survivors hands to realize the power they
Speaker 1: have now even though they're nursing wounds, to create that
Speaker 1: post traumatic growth, whatever that might look like. And again
Speaker 1: that is so immensely plural what it looks like to
Speaker 1: the individual, and they get to choose what that is.
Speaker 1: This has been so enlightening and helpful, and I just
Speaker 1: thank you so much for all of this information and
Speaker 1: just educating. Yeah, thank you very much. It's the education
Speaker 1: we need and I'm really grateful that you could spend
Speaker 1: some time with us to talk about it. Thank you
Speaker 1: so very much. I just want to share one more
Speaker 1: email we receive that really hit home because I think
Speaker 1: it's so easy to confuse positive attention and negative attention,
Speaker 1: and this listener summed it up so well and I
Speaker 1: think we both thought it was worth sharing. At the
Speaker 1: end of this episode, Jen, do you mind reading it
Speaker 1: for us? Dear Jennifer and the whole crew of Betrayal.
Speaker 1: For three and a half years, been the victim of
Speaker 1: a predator who has, unbeknownst to me until this podcast,
Speaker 1: been grooming me and sexually harassing me. He is a charming,
Speaker 1: brilliant and powerful CEO. I never had the nerve to
Speaker 1: tell him to stop. Until now you have given me
Speaker 1: the power and the nerve, and you have opened my
Speaker 1: eyes to the fact that it is not flattering to
Speaker 1: be groomed. I've been in agony for three and a
Speaker 1: half years and it stops today a cry. It's education, right, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's letting people know what this behavior is so hopefully
Speaker 1: they can recognize it. A little goes a long way,
Speaker 1: and we just want to help each other. That's right.
Speaker 1: If you'd like to reach out to the Betrayal team,
Speaker 1: email us at Betrayal Pod at gmail dot com. That's
Speaker 1: Betrayal Pod gmail dot com. Betrayal is a production of
Speaker 1: Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group, in partnership
Speaker 1: with iHeart Podcasts. The show was executive produced by Nancy
Speaker 1: Glass and Jennifer Fason, hosted and produced by me Andrea Gunning,
Speaker 1: written and produced by Carry Hartman, also produced by Ben Fetterman.
Speaker 1: Our iHeart team is Ali Perry and Jessica Krinchek. Sound
Speaker 1: editing and mixing done by Mount de Vecchio. Betrayal's theme
Speaker 1: was composed by Oliver Bain's music library provided by my
Speaker 1: Music and For more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app,
Speaker 1: Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts.