1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:05,880 Speaker 1: This podcast discusses sexual assault. Please take care while listening. 2 00:00:08,640 --> 00:00:11,200 Speaker 2: All of a sudden, there he is standing there with 3 00:00:11,240 --> 00:00:14,360 Speaker 2: this very abrupt information that I find you attractive. I 4 00:00:14,360 --> 00:00:17,520 Speaker 2: think you're beautiful. I want to kiss you. It's very confusing. 5 00:00:17,560 --> 00:00:19,880 Speaker 2: I mean, our brain is just on a cognitive level 6 00:00:19,960 --> 00:00:22,440 Speaker 2: trying to make sense of what's unfolding right now, and 7 00:00:22,480 --> 00:00:24,480 Speaker 2: then all of a sudden, we might find ourselves going 8 00:00:24,520 --> 00:00:27,520 Speaker 2: along with it. Now we've shared a kiss, there usually 9 00:00:27,600 --> 00:00:29,560 Speaker 2: is a feeling that there's a point of no return. 10 00:00:39,200 --> 00:00:48,559 Speaker 1: I'm Andrea Gunning and this is Betrayal, Episode nine Grooming. 11 00:00:52,560 --> 00:00:55,320 Speaker 1: During the course of our series Betrayal, we learned that 12 00:00:55,400 --> 00:00:59,400 Speaker 1: Jennifer's then husband, Spencer, had dozens of affairs and sexually 13 00:00:59,400 --> 00:01:04,720 Speaker 1: assaulted one of his students. Rachel. The student, bravely recounted 14 00:01:04,760 --> 00:01:09,920 Speaker 1: her experience. On an earlier episode. She painstakenly recounted how 15 00:01:09,920 --> 00:01:13,119 Speaker 1: a trusted adult in her life roomed her by first 16 00:01:13,200 --> 00:01:17,080 Speaker 1: becoming a trusted mentor and confidant to a sexual predator. 17 00:01:17,959 --> 00:01:20,240 Speaker 1: It was hard to hear, but a lesson in how 18 00:01:20,360 --> 00:01:22,120 Speaker 1: adults manipulate children. 19 00:01:23,480 --> 00:01:26,759 Speaker 3: I think I was more confused with a grown adult 20 00:01:27,319 --> 00:01:31,560 Speaker 3: telling me that they had these feelings for me that 21 00:01:31,600 --> 00:01:34,600 Speaker 3: you see in movies, you know, when someone confesses their feelings, 22 00:01:35,080 --> 00:01:39,000 Speaker 3: and as a kid, it's shocking when someone tells you 23 00:01:39,040 --> 00:01:42,760 Speaker 3: at the time that they love you and they have 24 00:01:42,840 --> 00:01:45,319 Speaker 3: these feelings for you that they don't want to hide, 25 00:01:45,920 --> 00:01:48,760 Speaker 3: and that you're special. It was a shock. 26 00:01:50,000 --> 00:01:55,200 Speaker 4: I remember him specifically saying that he had never felt 27 00:01:55,200 --> 00:01:59,200 Speaker 4: this way before with anyone, and that I was special 28 00:01:59,400 --> 00:02:00,560 Speaker 4: to him. 29 00:02:00,680 --> 00:02:02,840 Speaker 3: That's how he made me feel. He made me feel 30 00:02:02,840 --> 00:02:06,560 Speaker 3: special and I could trust him if I ever needed 31 00:02:06,560 --> 00:02:08,400 Speaker 3: to talk to him about anything personal. 32 00:02:09,200 --> 00:02:13,959 Speaker 1: That interview triggered a slew of responses from many of you. Jen, 33 00:02:14,000 --> 00:02:16,200 Speaker 1: would you mind reading one of those emails? 34 00:02:16,840 --> 00:02:21,280 Speaker 5: Sure this may sound scattered because I'm a stay at 35 00:02:21,280 --> 00:02:25,000 Speaker 5: home mom with four little ones, but I am Rachel. 36 00:02:25,919 --> 00:02:28,800 Speaker 5: I was groomed by my teacher and coach. He was 37 00:02:28,919 --> 00:02:32,679 Speaker 5: very calculated and prayed upon me, just like Rachel. I'd 38 00:02:32,720 --> 00:02:37,160 Speaker 5: never dated anyone, was very insecure and innocent. I have 39 00:02:37,240 --> 00:02:41,400 Speaker 5: felt so alone for so many years. Rachel was brave 40 00:02:41,680 --> 00:02:45,840 Speaker 5: and a huge encouragement for me. Wow, I know right. 41 00:02:45,960 --> 00:02:52,040 Speaker 5: It's that whole feeling alone thing that sometimes just makes 42 00:02:52,040 --> 00:02:55,160 Speaker 5: you feel like you've done something wrong. But then when 43 00:02:55,200 --> 00:03:01,160 Speaker 5: you hear other people tell a similar story, It's just like, Wow, 44 00:03:01,320 --> 00:03:04,920 Speaker 5: this happens to other people, so it must not just 45 00:03:05,000 --> 00:03:08,320 Speaker 5: be my fault, or it must not be my fault 46 00:03:08,360 --> 00:03:08,679 Speaker 5: at all. 47 00:03:10,000 --> 00:03:12,600 Speaker 1: And we're seeing this in the emails. There's so much 48 00:03:12,639 --> 00:03:17,120 Speaker 1: relief and there's like a weight lifted. I mean, there 49 00:03:17,120 --> 00:03:19,120 Speaker 1: were so many others just like the one that you 50 00:03:19,200 --> 00:03:23,160 Speaker 1: just read, actually, including students of your ex husband. 51 00:03:23,520 --> 00:03:26,639 Speaker 5: Yeah, we got a lot of feedback, but the ones 52 00:03:26,919 --> 00:03:30,359 Speaker 5: that actually knew him or were one of his students 53 00:03:30,720 --> 00:03:36,600 Speaker 5: at some point in his career. Oh man, it's sickening. 54 00:03:36,720 --> 00:03:40,920 Speaker 1: And is sickening and it's consistent. Yeah, after we heard 55 00:03:41,040 --> 00:03:43,720 Speaker 1: Rachel's story, you ended up speaking with two of the 56 00:03:43,720 --> 00:03:47,520 Speaker 1: women that your husband at the time carried long term 57 00:03:47,560 --> 00:03:50,720 Speaker 1: affairs with and these went on for years. One of 58 00:03:50,720 --> 00:03:53,440 Speaker 1: the women was also a friend of yours at the time. 59 00:03:54,440 --> 00:03:55,680 Speaker 1: Let's hear a little bit of that. 60 00:03:56,200 --> 00:03:59,160 Speaker 6: Okay, the way I was talked to to feel good 61 00:03:59,160 --> 00:04:03,840 Speaker 6: about myself to trust him, surely that happened to that 62 00:04:03,880 --> 00:04:06,960 Speaker 6: same girl. I bet you any money it was the 63 00:04:07,000 --> 00:04:11,520 Speaker 6: same steps. Just continuously building a relationship with somebody and 64 00:04:11,520 --> 00:04:15,120 Speaker 6: making them feel good about themselves, but also making them 65 00:04:15,160 --> 00:04:19,479 Speaker 6: feel like they're not doing anything bad. I had remembered 66 00:04:19,520 --> 00:04:24,120 Speaker 6: saying like, I can't do this, this is wrong. Well, no, no, 67 00:04:24,200 --> 00:04:26,520 Speaker 6: it's not wrong. You just can't help when two people 68 00:04:26,640 --> 00:04:31,160 Speaker 6: just click like we do, it's rooming. It is grooming, 69 00:04:31,640 --> 00:04:34,680 Speaker 6: and they don't mind taking the time to build that trust. 70 00:04:35,360 --> 00:04:38,839 Speaker 1: We received a lot of emails about this particular episode. 71 00:04:39,000 --> 00:04:43,360 Speaker 5: You know, out of all the episodes, this one getting 72 00:04:43,400 --> 00:04:47,760 Speaker 5: the most feedback from was really interesting. I think it 73 00:04:47,839 --> 00:04:53,520 Speaker 5: really started that whole discussion about what is grooming, what 74 00:04:53,680 --> 00:04:59,320 Speaker 5: is predatory behavior? Can you be groomed as an adult? 75 00:05:00,200 --> 00:05:04,200 Speaker 1: It was so interesting. So many people were just curious, 76 00:05:04,240 --> 00:05:08,080 Speaker 1: but also had a lot of feelings about it. Do 77 00:05:08,160 --> 00:05:09,359 Speaker 1: you mind sharing one of those? 78 00:05:09,960 --> 00:05:14,520 Speaker 5: Sure? I learned so much from this podcast, but mostly 79 00:05:14,839 --> 00:05:17,279 Speaker 5: I decided it was time to forgive myself from a 80 00:05:17,320 --> 00:05:20,320 Speaker 5: relationship that has weighed on me for far too long. 81 00:05:21,320 --> 00:05:24,520 Speaker 5: I don't make excuses, and I take full responsibility for 82 00:05:24,600 --> 00:05:28,320 Speaker 5: my decisions. However, now I realized that I was a 83 00:05:28,360 --> 00:05:33,200 Speaker 5: perfect target, vulnerable and desiring attention, even if it was 84 00:05:33,240 --> 00:05:37,240 Speaker 5: the wrong kind of attention. This is nothing compared to 85 00:05:37,279 --> 00:05:39,799 Speaker 5: what you went through. But Spence and this guy seemed 86 00:05:39,839 --> 00:05:43,599 Speaker 5: to have similar characteristics regarding how they approached to others. 87 00:05:45,560 --> 00:05:47,880 Speaker 2: Emails like that make me feel really great. 88 00:05:48,320 --> 00:05:54,520 Speaker 1: Why there was empathy and forgiveness, and it's healing for 89 00:05:54,600 --> 00:05:58,640 Speaker 1: you and the other women involved with Spencer. Hearing from 90 00:05:58,680 --> 00:06:01,680 Speaker 1: the other women allows them to release that shame a 91 00:06:01,720 --> 00:06:02,160 Speaker 1: little bit. 92 00:06:02,600 --> 00:06:05,640 Speaker 5: You know, people would ask why did you need to 93 00:06:05,720 --> 00:06:11,000 Speaker 5: talk to these women? And I understand that some people 94 00:06:11,000 --> 00:06:14,159 Speaker 5: are going to think it's weird or strange or something 95 00:06:14,240 --> 00:06:19,240 Speaker 5: like that. But that's how you understand someone else's side 96 00:06:19,279 --> 00:06:22,840 Speaker 5: of things. You listen to what they went through and 97 00:06:22,880 --> 00:06:27,560 Speaker 5: you realize that they were lied to, they were manipulated. 98 00:06:28,120 --> 00:06:29,000 Speaker 2: But there were a lot. 99 00:06:28,800 --> 00:06:34,440 Speaker 1: Of other big feelings about this episode that weren't the 100 00:06:34,480 --> 00:06:39,200 Speaker 1: same reaction, especially when it came to your former friend. 101 00:06:39,880 --> 00:06:42,520 Speaker 5: Yeah, you want me to read this one email we got, 102 00:06:43,040 --> 00:06:45,960 Speaker 5: Yeah share. The woman who had an affair with a 103 00:06:45,960 --> 00:06:52,520 Speaker 5: married man kept saying she was groomed. That is not grooming. Manipulative, yes, grooming. No, 104 00:06:53,680 --> 00:06:55,800 Speaker 5: she was an adult and he was not in position 105 00:06:55,960 --> 00:06:59,479 Speaker 5: of authority over her. This is an irresponsible use of 106 00:06:59,520 --> 00:07:01,720 Speaker 5: this word and takes away from those of us who 107 00:07:01,800 --> 00:07:05,080 Speaker 5: are really groomed. You may want to provide some additional 108 00:07:05,120 --> 00:07:09,720 Speaker 5: information about what grooming is versus being manipulated by a sociopath. 109 00:07:10,600 --> 00:07:15,800 Speaker 5: Language matters. And here's another one. The two women were grown, 110 00:07:15,840 --> 00:07:18,880 Speaker 5: adult women and know right from wrong. I feel it's 111 00:07:19,000 --> 00:07:22,600 Speaker 5: a dangerous viewpoint to treat women as helpless victims that 112 00:07:22,680 --> 00:07:26,760 Speaker 5: are at the mercy of manipulative men. Adult women can 113 00:07:26,760 --> 00:07:30,480 Speaker 5: make their own decisions. We are not weak, helpless creatures. 114 00:07:31,080 --> 00:07:33,560 Speaker 5: I think it would be a far more effective message 115 00:07:33,640 --> 00:07:36,840 Speaker 5: to hold the adult women accountable for their choices and 116 00:07:36,880 --> 00:07:38,760 Speaker 5: not portray them as victims. 117 00:07:40,400 --> 00:07:44,680 Speaker 1: When we read that email about how language matters, I 118 00:07:44,720 --> 00:07:47,480 Speaker 1: was like, absolutely it does, and so let's have a 119 00:07:47,560 --> 00:07:51,920 Speaker 1: larger conversation and educate the audience about what grooming is 120 00:07:52,560 --> 00:07:56,680 Speaker 1: and really explore that conversation in this forum because so 121 00:07:56,800 --> 00:07:59,880 Speaker 1: many people reached out about it, just wanting to know 122 00:08:00,160 --> 00:08:04,560 Speaker 1: what it is, how it happens, and clarifying the difference 123 00:08:04,600 --> 00:08:07,200 Speaker 1: between what happened to Rachel and these other women, or 124 00:08:07,240 --> 00:08:09,040 Speaker 1: how are they similar, how are they dissimilar. 125 00:08:09,480 --> 00:08:14,080 Speaker 5: I think we have been very responsible in telling this story, 126 00:08:14,160 --> 00:08:17,720 Speaker 5: and so when we did get this feedback, we decided 127 00:08:17,840 --> 00:08:21,240 Speaker 5: to seek out an expert to really help define this 128 00:08:21,320 --> 00:08:22,960 Speaker 5: stuff absolutely. 129 00:08:23,080 --> 00:08:26,680 Speaker 1: And look, our job was to tell your story and 130 00:08:26,800 --> 00:08:31,680 Speaker 1: let women involved speak for themselves and tell their truth 131 00:08:31,760 --> 00:08:34,920 Speaker 1: and their stories. And by any calculation, it took a 132 00:08:34,960 --> 00:08:36,920 Speaker 1: lot of guts to do that. 133 00:08:37,120 --> 00:08:37,880 Speaker 2: It really did. 134 00:08:38,400 --> 00:08:40,000 Speaker 1: But it's also clear that we need to do some 135 00:08:40,040 --> 00:08:42,680 Speaker 1: more work on defining grooming in a more clinical way, 136 00:08:43,040 --> 00:08:47,120 Speaker 1: so we sought out a top expert. Jerrika Heinze is 137 00:08:47,160 --> 00:08:50,760 Speaker 1: a resource specialist at the National Sexual Violence Resource Center 138 00:08:51,200 --> 00:08:54,679 Speaker 1: and also the founder of the field Work Initiative, an 139 00:08:54,840 --> 00:08:58,920 Speaker 1: organization which addresses issues of trauma and gendered violence in 140 00:08:58,960 --> 00:09:03,800 Speaker 1: academia research field Work. Jerica is a cultural anthropologist who 141 00:09:03,800 --> 00:09:08,160 Speaker 1: speaks internationally on issues of sexual harassment, abuses of power, 142 00:09:08,760 --> 00:09:09,760 Speaker 1: and violence prevention. 143 00:09:10,800 --> 00:09:13,680 Speaker 5: Thank you, Jerica for spending some time with us. 144 00:09:14,320 --> 00:09:17,440 Speaker 2: Thank you so very much. I'm always very happy and 145 00:09:17,559 --> 00:09:21,720 Speaker 2: glad to have these conversations, not because they're particularly uplifting, 146 00:09:22,120 --> 00:09:25,000 Speaker 2: but more so because they've been so historically absent in 147 00:09:25,080 --> 00:09:27,679 Speaker 2: conversations that have had in our society, and I think 148 00:09:27,840 --> 00:09:30,920 Speaker 2: having these kind of illuminating conversations is the ultimate form 149 00:09:30,920 --> 00:09:33,600 Speaker 2: of prevention. So thank you so much for the opportunities 150 00:09:33,720 --> 00:09:34,120 Speaker 2: to do that. 151 00:09:34,480 --> 00:09:39,000 Speaker 5: Of course, So, Jerica, how did you get into this 152 00:09:39,120 --> 00:09:43,959 Speaker 5: line of work and become an expert in this field. 153 00:09:44,360 --> 00:09:49,760 Speaker 2: I myself have experiences of grooming and that culminated into 154 00:09:50,240 --> 00:09:53,719 Speaker 2: the sort of very subtle beginnings of sexual harassment, then 155 00:09:53,840 --> 00:09:57,679 Speaker 2: much more apparent sexual harassment, and that culminated into a 156 00:09:57,760 --> 00:10:01,080 Speaker 2: sexual assault. I was still a peach d student with 157 00:10:01,240 --> 00:10:05,200 Speaker 2: an immense amount of trust and moral debt towards an advisor, 158 00:10:05,240 --> 00:10:08,320 Speaker 2: a person who in my research field was helping and 159 00:10:08,400 --> 00:10:11,120 Speaker 2: guiding me for many years, offering help and aid and 160 00:10:11,200 --> 00:10:13,800 Speaker 2: trust in that individual who was significantly older than me. 161 00:10:14,520 --> 00:10:16,480 Speaker 2: But I was still a very much an adult woman. 162 00:10:16,520 --> 00:10:19,840 Speaker 2: I was in my late twenties. Since that there was 163 00:10:19,880 --> 00:10:23,000 Speaker 2: another researcher who was raped and murdered nearby that area, 164 00:10:23,520 --> 00:10:26,680 Speaker 2: and that was what fully initiated the creation of field 165 00:10:26,679 --> 00:10:30,600 Speaker 2: work initiative. My work at National Sexual Violence Resource Center 166 00:10:31,000 --> 00:10:34,000 Speaker 2: is looking very broadly at topics of sexual abuse, to 167 00:10:34,080 --> 00:10:38,080 Speaker 2: gender violence, domestic violence, and thinking about survivor led and 168 00:10:38,200 --> 00:10:42,600 Speaker 2: centered resources for folks. For the past three years, I 169 00:10:42,760 --> 00:10:46,760 Speaker 2: have interviewed survivors of academic trauma and fieldwork trauma abuse 170 00:10:47,320 --> 00:10:50,679 Speaker 2: and that kind of lended itself to a purpose of knowledge, 171 00:10:50,679 --> 00:10:53,600 Speaker 2: that's training and informational where we shed light on this 172 00:10:53,679 --> 00:10:57,160 Speaker 2: issue about grooming about the abuses of power and how 173 00:10:57,160 --> 00:10:58,320 Speaker 2: those dynamics un full. 174 00:11:03,960 --> 00:11:06,160 Speaker 1: So is it safe to say that your experience you 175 00:11:06,240 --> 00:11:10,280 Speaker 1: went through as a PhD student changed the course of 176 00:11:10,320 --> 00:11:10,960 Speaker 1: your career. 177 00:11:11,920 --> 00:11:15,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's absolutely spot on. I mean I had this 178 00:11:16,080 --> 00:11:18,560 Speaker 2: fear that I didn't want sexual harassment to be like 179 00:11:18,679 --> 00:11:21,800 Speaker 2: my thing. I never wanted to do this work, and 180 00:11:22,400 --> 00:11:27,240 Speaker 2: this work is continued simply because it's needed. No other 181 00:11:27,400 --> 00:11:30,360 Speaker 2: organization exists that sheds light in the same way. 182 00:11:30,920 --> 00:11:33,840 Speaker 5: So in doing this podcast, I spoke with not only 183 00:11:34,160 --> 00:11:37,440 Speaker 5: the sexual assault victim, but also with a couple of 184 00:11:37,480 --> 00:11:40,880 Speaker 5: the adult women that my ex husband had had affairs with. 185 00:11:41,840 --> 00:11:44,880 Speaker 5: The question that came up a lot for us is 186 00:11:45,440 --> 00:11:48,360 Speaker 5: how exactly do you define grooming? 187 00:11:49,480 --> 00:11:53,880 Speaker 2: Grooming is the concept of putting an idea in somebody's mind, 188 00:11:54,040 --> 00:11:58,080 Speaker 2: painting a picture that will align and allow them to 189 00:11:58,679 --> 00:12:03,080 Speaker 2: perpetrate whatever acts they intend, and building that emotional connection 190 00:12:03,160 --> 00:12:05,800 Speaker 2: with you know, the people they target, which allows them 191 00:12:05,840 --> 00:12:08,920 Speaker 2: to set a stage of hiding in playing sight. He's 192 00:12:08,920 --> 00:12:10,520 Speaker 2: a teacher, You would never do that is such a 193 00:12:10,520 --> 00:12:14,240 Speaker 2: great neighbor and a coach that targeting earning of trust 194 00:12:14,400 --> 00:12:17,560 Speaker 2: with the purpose of exploiting their own motives, be that 195 00:12:17,840 --> 00:12:22,839 Speaker 2: through sexual abuse, financial abuse. We see grooming with elder adults, right, 196 00:12:23,160 --> 00:12:26,680 Speaker 2: you know, FIDU shary abuse. So grooming is not anything 197 00:12:26,720 --> 00:12:30,880 Speaker 2: that is specific to any one age group, any one individual. 198 00:12:31,240 --> 00:12:33,240 Speaker 2: You know, anybody is susceptible to be groom. 199 00:12:34,440 --> 00:12:37,880 Speaker 5: That is so helpful to know, because, as you know, 200 00:12:38,040 --> 00:12:42,320 Speaker 5: my husband was involved with women of many ages and backgrounds, 201 00:12:42,559 --> 00:12:46,240 Speaker 5: and so we've gotten so many questions and feedback about 202 00:12:46,280 --> 00:12:49,240 Speaker 5: grooming in this case, and it's been a topic of 203 00:12:49,280 --> 00:12:50,240 Speaker 5: so much debate. 204 00:12:52,080 --> 00:12:52,480 Speaker 2: Jerica. 205 00:12:52,520 --> 00:12:56,439 Speaker 5: One of the things that I feel like we noticed 206 00:12:56,840 --> 00:13:00,720 Speaker 5: with a lot of my ex husband's communication with these 207 00:13:00,760 --> 00:13:07,240 Speaker 5: women were to kind of prey on their vulnerabilities, saying 208 00:13:07,280 --> 00:13:10,800 Speaker 5: things to them like how beautiful they are and I 209 00:13:10,920 --> 00:13:15,960 Speaker 5: haven't felt this way before, lines like that, would you 210 00:13:16,080 --> 00:13:17,479 Speaker 5: consider that grooming? 211 00:13:17,960 --> 00:13:18,160 Speaker 4: Oh? 212 00:13:18,200 --> 00:13:25,920 Speaker 2: Absolutely, praying on the vulnerabilities, those imaginations of what does 213 00:13:25,920 --> 00:13:28,880 Speaker 2: that person need to hear to kind of turn the 214 00:13:28,960 --> 00:13:31,920 Speaker 2: key for this situation to take flight. And you know 215 00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:34,640 Speaker 2: what I noticed in the story of the friend, you know, 216 00:13:34,679 --> 00:13:38,280 Speaker 2: at the bar of the initial contact, was that she 217 00:13:38,440 --> 00:13:40,679 Speaker 2: was coming out of the bathroom and she had had 218 00:13:40,720 --> 00:13:42,240 Speaker 2: a little bit of wine and that all of a 219 00:13:42,280 --> 00:13:45,640 Speaker 2: sudden that abrupked he's standing there, he's saying these things. 220 00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:48,679 Speaker 2: You know, if we look at our brains when something 221 00:13:48,880 --> 00:13:52,400 Speaker 2: unexpected happens or traumatic or shocking, I mean, it's lit 222 00:13:52,480 --> 00:13:55,199 Speaker 2: up like the fourth of July. There's confusion, what's happening 223 00:13:55,240 --> 00:13:56,960 Speaker 2: and what does it mean? What's going on? And all 224 00:13:57,000 --> 00:13:59,520 Speaker 2: of a sudden there are is standing there with this 225 00:13:59,640 --> 00:14:02,520 Speaker 2: very information that you know, I find you attractive, I 226 00:14:02,520 --> 00:14:05,719 Speaker 2: think you're beautiful. I want to kiss you. It's very confusing. 227 00:14:05,760 --> 00:14:08,079 Speaker 2: I mean, our brain is just on a cognitive level 228 00:14:08,120 --> 00:14:10,600 Speaker 2: trying to make sense of what's unfolding right now, and 229 00:14:10,640 --> 00:14:12,640 Speaker 2: then all of a sudden we might find ourselves going 230 00:14:12,679 --> 00:14:15,199 Speaker 2: along with it. Now we've shared a kiss, now that 231 00:14:15,240 --> 00:14:17,920 Speaker 2: person has become part of it. It's not as we 232 00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:20,400 Speaker 2: might imagine it would go, where we expect a person 233 00:14:20,400 --> 00:14:23,600 Speaker 2: to say, excuse me, no, I can't do this, or 234 00:14:23,760 --> 00:14:28,280 Speaker 2: you know, it's all very much preying on opportunism of 235 00:14:28,320 --> 00:14:31,640 Speaker 2: the person not expecting, and also the idea that that 236 00:14:31,680 --> 00:14:35,120 Speaker 2: person is special and that they're the only one, and 237 00:14:35,160 --> 00:14:38,040 Speaker 2: that it's not really a bad thing because I see 238 00:14:38,080 --> 00:14:39,000 Speaker 2: how special you are. 239 00:14:40,000 --> 00:14:43,920 Speaker 1: How do you respond to people saying, well, they're an adult, 240 00:14:44,080 --> 00:14:48,440 Speaker 1: they have agency that feels different than someone that doesn't 241 00:14:48,480 --> 00:14:51,840 Speaker 1: have any sexual experience I was so young and really 242 00:14:51,840 --> 00:14:57,040 Speaker 1: doesn't have context to the sexual and romantic world. And 243 00:14:57,080 --> 00:14:58,920 Speaker 1: then if you have someone who has lived in the 244 00:14:58,960 --> 00:15:03,080 Speaker 1: world longer and has had those experiences, they should bring 245 00:15:03,200 --> 00:15:05,160 Speaker 1: that judgment to those scenarios. 246 00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:09,040 Speaker 2: So how do you respond to you. 247 00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:12,680 Speaker 1: Know, a grown woman or a grown adult has agency. 248 00:15:13,080 --> 00:15:16,920 Speaker 2: There's almost sea of different ways and modes that vulnerabilities 249 00:15:16,920 --> 00:15:20,080 Speaker 2: are kind of created and exploited. But there's no magic 250 00:15:20,200 --> 00:15:23,400 Speaker 2: age or a set age in which we're actually fully 251 00:15:23,440 --> 00:15:26,840 Speaker 2: formed adults that are completely moved on from any of 252 00:15:26,880 --> 00:15:28,640 Speaker 2: the things that you know, we might have struggled with 253 00:15:28,720 --> 00:15:31,240 Speaker 2: in our past or our traumas, and those are different 254 00:15:31,240 --> 00:15:33,440 Speaker 2: for different people. So you know, somebody with childhood sexual 255 00:15:33,440 --> 00:15:35,520 Speaker 2: abuse is going to have a different experience with that 256 00:15:35,600 --> 00:15:38,840 Speaker 2: than somebody who did not have those experiences. So it's 257 00:15:38,880 --> 00:15:41,000 Speaker 2: important not to be so kind of on and off 258 00:15:41,040 --> 00:15:43,960 Speaker 2: about where we imagine adults agency lies, and more so 259 00:15:44,160 --> 00:15:46,920 Speaker 2: think about trauma and as role and ol our thinking 260 00:15:46,920 --> 00:15:49,320 Speaker 2: in all of our concepts of ourselves and how we 261 00:15:49,360 --> 00:15:50,080 Speaker 2: move through the world. 262 00:15:50,440 --> 00:15:55,400 Speaker 5: That's so interesting in the case of the two women 263 00:15:55,480 --> 00:15:59,200 Speaker 5: I spoke to that are adults that had affairs. I 264 00:15:59,200 --> 00:16:05,840 Speaker 5: think spence used making them feel beautiful specifically for them. 265 00:16:06,320 --> 00:16:10,040 Speaker 5: Do groomers look for a certain personality type. 266 00:16:10,440 --> 00:16:13,920 Speaker 2: I think grooming is quite across the board. There was 267 00:16:14,000 --> 00:16:17,360 Speaker 2: grooming of neighbors and parents at school, There was grooming 268 00:16:17,360 --> 00:16:20,560 Speaker 2: of the coworkers. Planting that idea about them being a 269 00:16:20,600 --> 00:16:24,560 Speaker 2: trustworthy individual, and planting that idea about who they were 270 00:16:24,960 --> 00:16:27,960 Speaker 2: is a form of grooming as well. We do know 271 00:16:28,080 --> 00:16:31,400 Speaker 2: that when groomors see an opening of a vulnerability, they 272 00:16:31,560 --> 00:16:34,600 Speaker 2: are really privy to stepping in and perceiving that and 273 00:16:34,640 --> 00:16:37,560 Speaker 2: seeing and testing sort of where they can insert themselves 274 00:16:37,640 --> 00:16:40,280 Speaker 2: and insert and yield that power over them and then 275 00:16:40,400 --> 00:16:44,640 Speaker 2: over time sort of slowly portraying that image. But where 276 00:16:44,680 --> 00:16:47,280 Speaker 2: the victim still has that strong image in their mind 277 00:16:47,320 --> 00:16:49,280 Speaker 2: because there was such an impression made, and there was 278 00:16:49,320 --> 00:16:51,520 Speaker 2: everybody else that's holding the same idea. 279 00:16:51,560 --> 00:16:55,160 Speaker 5: And how is that different if it's different than being 280 00:16:55,160 --> 00:16:56,880 Speaker 5: a sexual predator. 281 00:16:58,080 --> 00:17:00,600 Speaker 2: We see at times with sexual predators, even though they 282 00:17:00,680 --> 00:17:04,199 Speaker 2: might have a desire or an inclination, there may not 283 00:17:04,320 --> 00:17:09,439 Speaker 2: in every instance be this premeditation, this grand orchestration that 284 00:17:09,480 --> 00:17:13,600 Speaker 2: we see with grooming. Grooming is that false sense of 285 00:17:13,840 --> 00:17:17,480 Speaker 2: an extreme emotional connection that the individual builds over time. 286 00:17:18,200 --> 00:17:20,880 Speaker 2: They're also never the same person twice. If we ask 287 00:17:20,960 --> 00:17:22,800 Speaker 2: an array of people who they are and what they 288 00:17:22,840 --> 00:17:25,680 Speaker 2: know about them, we might hear things about that person 289 00:17:25,720 --> 00:17:28,480 Speaker 2: we would never even imagine are possible. Because there's a 290 00:17:28,680 --> 00:17:31,520 Speaker 2: portrait that a groomer paints and they sort of hand 291 00:17:31,560 --> 00:17:32,080 Speaker 2: it to you. 292 00:17:32,680 --> 00:17:36,000 Speaker 5: That makes so much sense to me. So much of 293 00:17:36,040 --> 00:17:40,760 Speaker 5: this project has been about trying to see the many 294 00:17:40,840 --> 00:17:46,960 Speaker 5: different portraits my ex husband painted to others. Spence painted 295 00:17:47,080 --> 00:17:53,440 Speaker 5: himself different ways around different people. To me, he painted 296 00:17:53,560 --> 00:17:59,040 Speaker 5: himself as the perfect husband and I was his perfect wife. 297 00:17:59,040 --> 00:18:01,920 Speaker 2: And you just usually accepted, as we do in society. 298 00:18:02,160 --> 00:18:04,040 Speaker 2: If I were to tell you I was an astronaut, 299 00:18:04,280 --> 00:18:06,680 Speaker 2: you know what reason would you not believe that that's true, 300 00:18:07,080 --> 00:18:09,359 Speaker 2: especially if I say it with confidence and have a 301 00:18:09,400 --> 00:18:12,040 Speaker 2: certain way in which I carry myself with that information. 302 00:18:12,480 --> 00:18:17,040 Speaker 2: And so grooming is that sense of dependence and overall 303 00:18:17,560 --> 00:18:22,240 Speaker 2: vulnerability that's created between an individual and the groomer, and 304 00:18:22,440 --> 00:18:25,840 Speaker 2: it's all done for the purpose of orchestrating their own motives, 305 00:18:25,960 --> 00:18:29,159 Speaker 2: be those sexual, be those financial, maybe just the power 306 00:18:29,400 --> 00:18:29,720 Speaker 2: of it. 307 00:18:30,119 --> 00:18:35,040 Speaker 5: He orchestrated an emotional connection with many many of these women, 308 00:18:35,200 --> 00:18:39,720 Speaker 5: obviously with the sexual assault victim herself, but also I 309 00:18:39,760 --> 00:18:42,600 Speaker 5: think with a lot of these other grown women. 310 00:18:49,280 --> 00:18:52,119 Speaker 1: So when we were thinking through questions that we wanted 311 00:18:52,160 --> 00:18:56,879 Speaker 1: to ask you, Jerica, one of the questions was how 312 00:18:56,880 --> 00:18:58,560 Speaker 1: do victims who. 313 00:18:58,440 --> 00:19:01,920 Speaker 2: Are experienced grooming shut it down? 314 00:19:03,040 --> 00:19:06,679 Speaker 1: And as I was sitting with that phrase shut it down, 315 00:19:07,280 --> 00:19:10,840 Speaker 1: it just didn't sit right with me because it just 316 00:19:10,880 --> 00:19:14,680 Speaker 1: felt like it was on the victim. You know, those 317 00:19:14,720 --> 00:19:17,840 Speaker 1: who do not shut it down are weak. Those who 318 00:19:17,880 --> 00:19:20,919 Speaker 1: do not shut it down need to work on themselves. 319 00:19:20,920 --> 00:19:23,880 Speaker 1: They're not strong. And there's like this like weird inherent 320 00:19:23,960 --> 00:19:26,320 Speaker 1: criticism to that phrase. 321 00:19:27,520 --> 00:19:29,800 Speaker 2: There usually is a feeling that there's a point of 322 00:19:29,800 --> 00:19:32,800 Speaker 2: no return that if that person who knew that you 323 00:19:32,840 --> 00:19:34,359 Speaker 2: told someone that you're going to be in trouble or 324 00:19:34,520 --> 00:19:36,240 Speaker 2: that oh well we kissed now you know, the cats 325 00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:39,239 Speaker 2: out of the bag? Yeah, how can victims know that, 326 00:19:39,320 --> 00:19:42,359 Speaker 2: no matter what has happened, there's always a way to 327 00:19:42,560 --> 00:19:46,160 Speaker 2: step outside of that dynamic and getting them to realize 328 00:19:46,320 --> 00:19:48,280 Speaker 2: that that's their right and that they have the freedom 329 00:19:48,320 --> 00:19:50,639 Speaker 2: to do it, and that you know, they're going to 330 00:19:50,640 --> 00:19:52,400 Speaker 2: be believed and they're not going to be blamed things 331 00:19:52,480 --> 00:19:57,399 Speaker 2: like that, and I think that telling survivors that no 332 00:19:57,480 --> 00:20:01,240 Speaker 2: matter how long something has gone on, no matter what 333 00:20:01,280 --> 00:20:04,560 Speaker 2: has happened, that you always have a right to set 334 00:20:04,600 --> 00:20:07,640 Speaker 2: it down by saying and expressing it. It's like, oh, 335 00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:09,840 Speaker 2: what so much has already happened. I have to somehow 336 00:20:10,320 --> 00:20:12,320 Speaker 2: spin it. I have to somehow make it okay or 337 00:20:12,359 --> 00:20:14,879 Speaker 2: make it better, or there's some sort of burden about 338 00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:17,639 Speaker 2: it not being as bad, or I have to somehow 339 00:20:17,880 --> 00:20:19,600 Speaker 2: go down with the ship, or you know, there's so 340 00:20:19,600 --> 00:20:21,680 Speaker 2: many ways people might feel it, and just letting people 341 00:20:21,680 --> 00:20:24,360 Speaker 2: know no matter what has happened, no matter how long 342 00:20:24,400 --> 00:20:27,280 Speaker 2: it's gone on, you always have the right to say, 343 00:20:27,320 --> 00:20:29,040 Speaker 2: you know what, I'm going to speak my truth about this, 344 00:20:29,040 --> 00:20:32,200 Speaker 2: this has been happening, this has happened, and that there's 345 00:20:32,280 --> 00:20:35,359 Speaker 2: always that exit button that usually begins with telling someone 346 00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:39,520 Speaker 2: we trust, usually begins with a feeling empowered to do 347 00:20:39,560 --> 00:20:42,360 Speaker 2: that because there's an immense amount of fear. It's not easy, 348 00:20:42,640 --> 00:20:44,960 Speaker 2: it's scary, it's extremely scary. It's one of the scariest 349 00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:47,800 Speaker 2: things you can imagine is not knowing what's possible. 350 00:20:47,720 --> 00:20:50,800 Speaker 5: When you're scared or operating from a place of fear. 351 00:20:51,440 --> 00:20:54,320 Speaker 5: It's really hard to think rationally. 352 00:20:55,240 --> 00:20:57,919 Speaker 2: We become hyper vigilant when we have trauma, and that 353 00:20:58,000 --> 00:21:02,119 Speaker 2: hypervigilance creates this thing our brain where we have to 354 00:21:02,200 --> 00:21:05,280 Speaker 2: imagine the worst case scenario is going to happen next, 355 00:21:05,680 --> 00:21:08,000 Speaker 2: We're going to be blamed. No one's going to believe us. 356 00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:10,760 Speaker 2: They're going to use some sort of revenge. That's why 357 00:21:10,800 --> 00:21:13,880 Speaker 2: we need more trauma informed education, starting from a young age, 358 00:21:14,160 --> 00:21:15,840 Speaker 2: why we need these kinds of conversations. 359 00:21:16,359 --> 00:21:21,240 Speaker 5: Absolutely. One feeling I get from some of these women 360 00:21:21,240 --> 00:21:25,119 Speaker 5: that I've spoken with is they were really upset and 361 00:21:25,240 --> 00:21:27,960 Speaker 5: angry with themselves for falling for it. 362 00:21:28,840 --> 00:21:31,600 Speaker 2: I'd say one of the paramount things to understand about 363 00:21:31,640 --> 00:21:35,760 Speaker 2: blooming is that the groomer has implicated you in this event. 364 00:21:36,640 --> 00:21:39,920 Speaker 2: You've played a role. And this is why I think 365 00:21:39,960 --> 00:21:43,240 Speaker 2: for you, Jen, as the core victim, as the wife, 366 00:21:43,480 --> 00:21:45,600 Speaker 2: we can't really look back and think that there was 367 00:21:45,640 --> 00:21:49,959 Speaker 2: any even red flags. But thinking to the fact that 368 00:21:50,240 --> 00:21:54,439 Speaker 2: all of these victims themselves played in some way, you know, 369 00:21:54,760 --> 00:21:57,000 Speaker 2: the groomer implicated them. Well, I kissed you and you 370 00:21:57,040 --> 00:22:00,080 Speaker 2: didn't push me away. You know you could have. I 371 00:22:00,280 --> 00:22:02,280 Speaker 2: know at any moment you didn't have to text me back. 372 00:22:02,600 --> 00:22:04,600 Speaker 2: You could have told the police at any moment if 373 00:22:04,640 --> 00:22:06,320 Speaker 2: you didn't want to, and you could have walked away. 374 00:22:06,359 --> 00:22:08,400 Speaker 2: You know, this is the way in which it happens. 375 00:22:08,480 --> 00:22:11,240 Speaker 2: And so what happens is the victims feel this as 376 00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:15,040 Speaker 2: the first surge of guilt. And that's how rumors are 377 00:22:15,080 --> 00:22:19,439 Speaker 2: so successful. They find that little wedge between where they 378 00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:22,160 Speaker 2: can really bring out vulnerabilities in the sense that they're 379 00:22:22,160 --> 00:22:25,080 Speaker 2: going to ameliorate them, but also drive that wedge. Well, 380 00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:27,359 Speaker 2: yeah this is bad, but you know I didn't act alone. 381 00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:30,720 Speaker 2: You kissed me too, And that's where so many victims 382 00:22:30,760 --> 00:22:34,800 Speaker 2: feel shame and guilt and self culpability. What we do 383 00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:36,480 Speaker 2: is we look back on our role in it and 384 00:22:36,520 --> 00:22:38,320 Speaker 2: think of a thousand ways we could have and should 385 00:22:38,320 --> 00:22:39,040 Speaker 2: have done it different. 386 00:22:39,840 --> 00:22:44,360 Speaker 5: So what are some resources that you suggest for people 387 00:22:44,880 --> 00:22:45,960 Speaker 5: who have gone through this. 388 00:22:46,400 --> 00:22:49,560 Speaker 2: I think all victims need therapying. Of course, having a 389 00:22:49,600 --> 00:22:53,280 Speaker 2: space to talk about this. I think that having a 390 00:22:53,359 --> 00:22:58,040 Speaker 2: connection with other survivors is immensely important. When we have 391 00:22:58,119 --> 00:23:01,040 Speaker 2: group sessions, the kinds of can connections that can be 392 00:23:01,119 --> 00:23:04,080 Speaker 2: made between two individuals where we can say, hey, I 393 00:23:04,119 --> 00:23:07,119 Speaker 2: see you're blaming yourself and you totally shouldn't and the 394 00:23:07,160 --> 00:23:09,040 Speaker 2: other person says, yeah, well you're doing the same thing. 395 00:23:09,320 --> 00:23:11,879 Speaker 2: It makes connections that we can't otherwise do in a 396 00:23:11,920 --> 00:23:15,040 Speaker 2: one dimensional way or internally. We need to be much 397 00:23:15,040 --> 00:23:17,879 Speaker 2: more outward about it, talking about it, saying hey, I 398 00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:20,399 Speaker 2: feel really bad right now about the way that you 399 00:23:20,400 --> 00:23:22,399 Speaker 2: know I'm feeling about it. And it might be on 400 00:23:22,440 --> 00:23:25,399 Speaker 2: a random Tuesday when we're driving down the road. Feeling 401 00:23:25,520 --> 00:23:27,919 Speaker 2: is not linear. It's kind of like that, right, and 402 00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:30,280 Speaker 2: the same with these feelings and these emotions. So I 403 00:23:30,320 --> 00:23:33,000 Speaker 2: think the first thing that survivors need to know is 404 00:23:33,080 --> 00:23:35,320 Speaker 2: that there are spaces and there is help to be 405 00:23:35,359 --> 00:23:37,800 Speaker 2: able to let all of these things out from the 406 00:23:37,840 --> 00:23:40,600 Speaker 2: internal space where they just usually get worse and fester. 407 00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:45,400 Speaker 2: So it's really important to find each other and speak 408 00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:48,199 Speaker 2: about it and whatever it's setting is comfortable, be that 409 00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:50,080 Speaker 2: in a therapy setting, be that in a group setting, 410 00:23:50,119 --> 00:23:52,720 Speaker 2: be that just with friends or everybody else or whomever 411 00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:56,200 Speaker 2: the person finds good. And then understanding our ability to 412 00:23:56,280 --> 00:23:58,840 Speaker 2: create post traumatic growth, or we can say, you know, 413 00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:01,400 Speaker 2: I choose to create an error of where I see 414 00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:04,720 Speaker 2: that I was exploited in this way. So starting to 415 00:24:05,119 --> 00:24:08,400 Speaker 2: put tools in survivors' hands to realize the power they 416 00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:12,480 Speaker 2: have now even though they're nursing wounds to create that 417 00:24:12,520 --> 00:24:14,840 Speaker 2: post traumatic growth, whatever that might look like. And again 418 00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:17,080 Speaker 2: that is so immensely plural what it looks like to 419 00:24:17,119 --> 00:24:19,320 Speaker 2: the individual, and they get to choose what that is. 420 00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:22,600 Speaker 1: This has been so enlightening and helpful, and I just 421 00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:25,800 Speaker 1: thank you so much for all of this information and 422 00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:26,760 Speaker 1: just educating. 423 00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:30,760 Speaker 5: Yeah, thank you very much. It's the education we need 424 00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:33,280 Speaker 5: and I'm really grateful that you could spend some time 425 00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:34,439 Speaker 5: with us to talk about it. 426 00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:35,520 Speaker 2: Thank you so very much. 427 00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:39,800 Speaker 1: I just want to share one more email we receive 428 00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:42,480 Speaker 1: that really hit home because I think it's so easy 429 00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:47,120 Speaker 1: to confuse positive attention and negative attention, and this listener 430 00:24:47,119 --> 00:24:50,080 Speaker 1: summed it up so well and I think we both 431 00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:53,240 Speaker 1: thought it was worth sharing. At the end of this episode, JN, 432 00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:54,240 Speaker 1: do you mind reading it for us? 433 00:24:55,359 --> 00:24:59,000 Speaker 5: Dear Jennifer and the whole crew of Betrayal. For three 434 00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:01,679 Speaker 5: and a half years been the victim of a predator 435 00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:05,920 Speaker 5: who has, unbeknownst to me until this podcast, been grooming 436 00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:10,200 Speaker 5: me and sexually harassing me. He is a charming, brilliant 437 00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:13,640 Speaker 5: and powerful CEO. I never had the nerve to tell 438 00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:18,040 Speaker 5: him to stop until now. You have given me the 439 00:25:18,119 --> 00:25:20,600 Speaker 5: power and the nerve, and you have opened my eyes 440 00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:24,240 Speaker 5: to the fact that it is not flattering to be groomed. 441 00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:27,719 Speaker 5: I've been in agony for three and a half years 442 00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:31,760 Speaker 5: and it stops today. 443 00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:32,040 Speaker 4: Cry. 444 00:25:33,320 --> 00:25:39,000 Speaker 5: It's education, right, yeah, it's letting people know what this 445 00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:42,679 Speaker 5: behavior is so hopefully they can recognize it. 446 00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:44,920 Speaker 1: Little goes a long way, and we just want to 447 00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:45,520 Speaker 1: help each other. 448 00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:46,520 Speaker 2: That's right. 449 00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:54,440 Speaker 1: If you'd like to reach out to the Betrayal team, 450 00:25:54,880 --> 00:25:58,800 Speaker 1: email us at Betrayalpod at gmail dot com. That's Betrayal 451 00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:04,880 Speaker 1: Pod gmail dot com. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, 452 00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:08,520 Speaker 1: a division of Glass Entertainment Group, in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. 453 00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:11,919 Speaker 1: The show was executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Fason, 454 00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:16,000 Speaker 1: hosted and produced by me Andrea Gunning, written and produced 455 00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:20,400 Speaker 1: by Kerry Hartman, also produced by Ben Fetterman. Our iHeart 456 00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:24,080 Speaker 1: team is Ali Perry and Jessica Crinchick. Sound editing and 457 00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:27,719 Speaker 1: mixing done by Matt Tavecio. Betrayal's theme was composed by 458 00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:32,040 Speaker 1: Oliver Bains. Music library provided by my Music and For 459 00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:36,159 Speaker 1: more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app. Apple Podcasts 460 00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:38,200 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts.