WEBVTT - Thursday Therapy: Attaching to Attachment 0:00:01.960 --> 0:00:05.400 Wind Down with Janet Kramer and I'm Heart Radio Podcast. 0:00:06.080 --> 0:00:09.319 All Right, Today's Thursday Therapy. We've got Jessica Bomb coming in. 0:00:09.440 --> 0:00:11.879 She's got a new book called Anxiously Attached Becoming More 0:00:11.880 --> 0:00:15.600 Secure in Life and Love. Let's get her on. Well, Jessica, 0:00:15.720 --> 0:00:18.320 I'm really excited to have you on today's Thursday Therapy 0:00:18.360 --> 0:00:22.080 episode of wind Down. Your book is well. First of all, 0:00:22.120 --> 0:00:26.160 I think it's such an interesting topic because I recently 0:00:26.200 --> 0:00:28.120 said this to my dad, because you know, I've done 0:00:28.200 --> 0:00:30.720 therapy forever and one of the things that I learned 0:00:30.720 --> 0:00:34.159 about myself is I'm extremely or I was. I'm a 0:00:34.200 --> 0:00:39.600 recovering anxiously attached person. So I that was how because 0:00:39.640 --> 0:00:43.320 I just never felt that love or the you know, 0:00:43.360 --> 0:00:46.160 as a child, I always kind of I craved the love, 0:00:46.280 --> 0:00:49.080 so I would cling on to people, which then you know, 0:00:49.280 --> 0:00:50.599 most and most of the time the people that I'm 0:00:50.640 --> 0:00:54.000 clinging on to were avoidant, so which then made me 0:00:54.080 --> 0:00:57.400 more anxiously attached. So do you see that as being 0:00:58.400 --> 0:01:01.960 how people kind of grow into this anxiously attached just 0:01:02.200 --> 0:01:03.280 from their childhood. 0:01:04.560 --> 0:01:07.640 Yeah. Absolutely, And I talk about this a lot in 0:01:07.640 --> 0:01:08.040 my book. 0:01:08.080 --> 0:01:11.800 But really anxious attachment and attachment in general starts so 0:01:12.040 --> 0:01:18.120 early on, and anxious attachment starts in our nervous system, 0:01:18.440 --> 0:01:22.240 So we didn't get a lot of lending of the 0:01:22.280 --> 0:01:26.480 parasympathetic nervous system from our primary caregiver to learn a 0:01:26.480 --> 0:01:28.640 lot of self regulation. So we need a lot of 0:01:28.680 --> 0:01:31.880 coregulation and we tend to depend on other people to 0:01:31.920 --> 0:01:35.559 help us feel safe. There are other hallmarks that happen 0:01:35.640 --> 0:01:38.880 when we're younger, and one of them is inconsistency. So 0:01:39.040 --> 0:01:41.840 even if we form a connection, we have a somatic 0:01:42.280 --> 0:01:45.600 feeling in our body that the connection could drop, and 0:01:45.640 --> 0:01:50.120 some people equate this to abandonment issues or quote unquoteqote 0:01:50.120 --> 0:01:55.120 dependent traits. Those all stem from really early wiring that 0:01:55.160 --> 0:01:57.160 we might not even be conscious of. And by the way, 0:01:57.160 --> 0:01:59.880 our parents are not guilty, like they're doing the best 0:02:00.160 --> 0:02:03.520 can in their nervous system responses. But all of this 0:02:03.600 --> 0:02:07.720 is wired way before real really we really even know. 0:02:07.960 --> 0:02:12.240 And so we take those early adaptive patterns and we 0:02:12.320 --> 0:02:15.880 reenact them in our romantic relationships, and so that's where 0:02:15.919 --> 0:02:17.560 it starts to become like mind blowing. 0:02:17.600 --> 0:02:19.720 It's like why am I acting this way? Why am 0:02:19.720 --> 0:02:20.240 I clinging? 0:02:20.280 --> 0:02:24.000 Well? Part of you remembers inconsistency. A part of you 0:02:24.080 --> 0:02:26.080 has some abandonment in there. A part of you is 0:02:26.120 --> 0:02:29.080 scared of disconnection, as you should be, and a part 0:02:29.080 --> 0:02:32.360 of you is so fearful that when that gets activated 0:02:32.480 --> 0:02:35.760 or awakened in you, you reenact what a baby would do, 0:02:35.800 --> 0:02:38.480 which is to reach out and maybe get a little 0:02:38.480 --> 0:02:41.040 bit clingy, and you know, and then we pick people 0:02:41.120 --> 0:02:44.040 who are overwhelmed by that and push us away, and 0:02:44.080 --> 0:02:47.600 then we're stuck in this miserable anxious avoidant dance, which 0:02:47.840 --> 0:02:49.760 I talk about in detail in the book. 0:02:50.400 --> 0:02:53.600 So for those that are listening that don't know, you 0:02:53.639 --> 0:02:57.760 know what anxious attachment is. I mean, what would you say? 0:02:58.240 --> 0:03:03.040 How could someone go, Okay, here's the five second quiz 0:03:03.040 --> 0:03:06.520 that would go, all right, I'm anxiously attached. Because it 0:03:06.560 --> 0:03:09.799 says here that forty five forty seven million Americans identify 0:03:09.800 --> 0:03:14.280 as having an anxious anxious attachment style. Whether that being 0:03:14.440 --> 0:03:17.799 what anxiously attached avoidant. I don't know what the other 0:03:17.840 --> 0:03:19.560 ones are. I just know the two because I've either 0:03:19.560 --> 0:03:22.520 been one or been with the other one, right, right, right, So. 0:03:22.400 --> 0:03:26.239 There's four different there's four different styles. There's secure, there's anxious, 0:03:26.280 --> 0:03:29.760 there's avoidant there. Yeah, secure makes up a good portion 0:03:29.840 --> 0:03:33.400 of the population. The forty seven million is talking about 0:03:33.480 --> 0:03:37.800 just anxious, and then there's insecure. There's the other insecure 0:03:37.880 --> 0:03:40.520 is avoidant, and then there's fearful, and those are like 0:03:40.600 --> 0:03:42.800 kind of the regular names. 0:03:43.000 --> 0:03:44.480 So i'll, you know, i'll. 0:03:44.600 --> 0:03:48.240 Avoidant is very different than anxious, and so anxious people, 0:03:48.240 --> 0:03:51.080 like I said, the hallmark really knowing, are more of 0:03:51.120 --> 0:03:52.360 the quota pendent traits. 0:03:52.400 --> 0:03:54.400 So they can leave their body. 0:03:54.640 --> 0:03:57.480 And sense what their partner is feeling, and they can 0:03:57.520 --> 0:04:00.920 be people pleasing and self abandoned in order to stay 0:04:00.920 --> 0:04:04.840 in connection, because connection is our biological imperative when we're 0:04:04.880 --> 0:04:08.520 really small, if we learn to monitor our parents' needs 0:04:08.600 --> 0:04:11.560 or understand the temperature checking of the room, we take 0:04:11.600 --> 0:04:16.960 those adaptive strategies and we bring them into our adult relationships. 0:04:17.000 --> 0:04:20.160 So that inconsistency or feeling like the shoe is going 0:04:20.200 --> 0:04:22.880 to drop is a hallmark of anxious attachment. 0:04:23.480 --> 0:04:25.320 And I guess the biggest thing I want to drive. 0:04:25.160 --> 0:04:27.839 Home is these really early ways in which our nervous 0:04:27.839 --> 0:04:31.720 system tries to stay in connection and adapts it are 0:04:31.760 --> 0:04:34.200 the same ways we end up staying in connection and 0:04:34.240 --> 0:04:37.000 adapting when we get adult, we don't change because we 0:04:37.040 --> 0:04:39.039 are an adult. We have conscious awareness that we're an 0:04:39.080 --> 0:04:41.279 adult and we're in a relation. We have parts of 0:04:41.320 --> 0:04:45.520 ourselves that are still responding to fear in ways that 0:04:45.560 --> 0:04:47.960 we learned when we were small. 0:04:48.080 --> 0:04:51.120 What age do you think that starts or that you 0:04:51.200 --> 0:04:53.920 remember that attachment in. 0:04:53.880 --> 0:04:55.600 Womb we have cellular memory. 0:04:55.640 --> 0:04:59.960 In womb, we internalize like we have cellular memory and womb, 0:05:00.320 --> 0:05:04.400 and we have something called implicit memory or sensational memory 0:05:05.040 --> 0:05:08.640 from zero to about four. So when you're in a relationship, 0:05:08.640 --> 0:05:12.560 in your gut drops, or you have really strong sensations, 0:05:12.680 --> 0:05:16.679 or you feel a big panic, some of that is memory. 0:05:16.760 --> 0:05:18.039 That is actually memory. 0:05:18.080 --> 0:05:21.000 It's not the memory you think about explicitly, like you 0:05:21.080 --> 0:05:26.560 remember going to Disneyland. Sensational experiences are how we store 0:05:26.640 --> 0:05:29.920 memory before that part of our brain develops. So when 0:05:29.960 --> 0:05:33.880 your boyfriend doesn't contact you back, or when you see 0:05:33.920 --> 0:05:36.520 someone really checked out, or when someone's on their phone 0:05:36.520 --> 0:05:38.160 and they're not paying attention to you and your whole 0:05:38.160 --> 0:05:42.400 body lights up, that is your memory system saying connection 0:05:42.600 --> 0:05:43.000 is gone. 0:05:43.160 --> 0:05:44.360 This is really scary. 0:05:44.520 --> 0:05:46.920 I'm shifting out of a sense of safety into a 0:05:47.279 --> 0:05:48.600 more activated place. 0:05:50.960 --> 0:05:53.919 Yeah, It's fascinating to me the whole thing, because I 0:05:53.920 --> 0:05:58.359 mean I definitely have always been anxiously attached up until 0:05:58.360 --> 0:06:03.080 about little after my divorce. I dated someone too afterwards, 0:06:03.080 --> 0:06:04.840 and it was just that same thing falling into the 0:06:05.560 --> 0:06:08.719 you know, into someone who was showing the patterns of 0:06:09.160 --> 0:06:12.400 you know, saying their present but then doing X, Y 0:06:12.440 --> 0:06:15.599 and Z things that weren't lining up. That triggered that 0:06:15.680 --> 0:06:18.840 anxious feeling that I had in my last marriage where 0:06:18.839 --> 0:06:21.480 I was like, can't trust it, not safe and then 0:06:21.680 --> 0:06:27.080 I just cling onto to not lose, you know, and 0:06:27.120 --> 0:06:29.560 to feel secure and happy in all the things. But 0:06:29.720 --> 0:06:33.680 it was again such a disservice to myself because I'm like, 0:06:33.920 --> 0:06:36.840 this is you know, I'm clinging onto something in someone 0:06:36.839 --> 0:06:39.880 that's not healthy for me, and I'm not healthy. So 0:06:39.920 --> 0:06:43.040 it was like the too healthy you know, unhealthy people 0:06:43.279 --> 0:06:47.200 together and like that to me is is interesting because 0:06:47.200 --> 0:06:48.920 a lot of people will reach out and go, okay, 0:06:49.160 --> 0:06:51.120 I'm with this person and he's cheated again, or what 0:06:51.160 --> 0:06:53.520 should I do? And I'm like, you know, of course, 0:06:53.760 --> 0:06:58.320 my whole being is like now knowing where my road 0:06:58.440 --> 0:06:59.839 was was like leave, Like what do you do? But 0:06:59.880 --> 0:07:01.400 I can't say that right, So I'm like, you have 0:07:01.440 --> 0:07:03.800 to make decision for yourself. You'll know when enough is enough. 0:07:03.880 --> 0:07:07.480 But would you say those people are then anxiously attached 0:07:07.480 --> 0:07:09.960 because of the wounding in a relationship. 0:07:11.560 --> 0:07:16.520 Yeah, your questions are so simple but yet very very deep. 0:07:16.920 --> 0:07:23.320 And we have an anticipated somatic experience of what a 0:07:23.440 --> 0:07:27.840 relationship and connection might feel like, and we might gravitate 0:07:27.920 --> 0:07:31.360 towards people who feel familiar and reenact some trauma in 0:07:31.400 --> 0:07:37.920 our relationship, and circular dances or cycles might happen. And 0:07:38.080 --> 0:07:42.840 because connection is literally our biological imperative, we can be 0:07:43.080 --> 0:07:46.840 very scared to leave the relationship for so many levels, 0:07:47.040 --> 0:07:50.720 Like consciously we're scared because being alone is hard, but 0:07:50.760 --> 0:07:54.200 subconsciously there could be other things going on that keep 0:07:54.280 --> 0:07:59.000 us as well in relationship patterns that are really consciously 0:07:59.040 --> 0:08:01.680 we know are unhealthy for us, but are so hard 0:08:01.720 --> 0:08:05.440 to leave. And so you know, we are designed to 0:08:05.520 --> 0:08:09.800 stay in connection even when it's unhealthy. We will forego 0:08:10.120 --> 0:08:12.560 some things to stay in connection because. 0:08:12.360 --> 0:08:13.520 That is our survival. 0:08:14.000 --> 0:08:17.200 The more work we get we do with what lives 0:08:17.240 --> 0:08:20.360 in our body and our embodied memory and our and 0:08:20.440 --> 0:08:23.480 our childhood and connecting to the root of these fears 0:08:23.480 --> 0:08:27.280 and these things the allure of the cycle or the 0:08:27.360 --> 0:08:31.320 allure of someone who really can't meet our needs lessons, 0:08:32.200 --> 0:08:34.920 and we start to possibly attract people who are more 0:08:34.920 --> 0:08:37.920 present and consistent and start to help our nervous system 0:08:38.080 --> 0:08:42.400 understand what is healthy love, which feels very different from 0:08:42.480 --> 0:08:46.400 kind of a roller coaster relationship. So you're you're describing 0:08:46.400 --> 0:08:49.640 maybe what people would talk about as trauma bonding or 0:08:49.640 --> 0:08:52.760 codependency or twin flame, and it's like, all of these 0:08:52.960 --> 0:08:56.280 terms are you know, we can judge them, but truly 0:08:56.360 --> 0:08:59.160 we need to understand that we pick people for a 0:08:59.200 --> 0:09:02.520 reason and usually reenact a lot of what our belief 0:09:02.559 --> 0:09:05.840 systems in our body anticipates, and we stay for a 0:09:05.880 --> 0:09:07.559 lot of reasons, and there shouldn't be a lot of 0:09:07.640 --> 0:09:08.400 judgment there. 0:09:08.800 --> 0:09:10.280 I would just hope there's a lot. 0:09:10.080 --> 0:09:13.880 Of curiosity around, Okay, I'm not getting my needs met 0:09:13.880 --> 0:09:17.960 in this relationship and it's really hard to leave. Can 0:09:18.000 --> 0:09:21.079 I get some support around this? And where can I heal? 0:09:21.559 --> 0:09:24.040 And the more you heal, the more the right decision 0:09:24.760 --> 0:09:27.080 hopefully comes through for you. 0:09:39.440 --> 0:09:41.560 I think one of the coolest things that I my 0:09:41.600 --> 0:09:46.320 transformation after my divorce was realizing, like a the work 0:09:46.360 --> 0:09:48.280 that I still had I had so much to do 0:09:48.360 --> 0:09:50.400 still that I had a big part to play, and 0:09:50.400 --> 0:09:52.880 then if I wanted to attract a healthy relationship that 0:09:52.920 --> 0:09:55.120 I'm like, I had to do even more work, even 0:09:55.120 --> 0:09:57.520 though I'm like, I've been doing therapy forever, Why am 0:09:57.559 --> 0:10:00.440 I still having to like go? So it's like but 0:10:00.480 --> 0:10:02.840 then it was just reworking different things. And then you know, 0:10:02.880 --> 0:10:06.720 when I was I was feeling more healthy and getting 0:10:06.760 --> 0:10:09.360 out there, and I took a little time off, just 0:10:09.400 --> 0:10:14.200 a little, but I felt that I was choosing different 0:10:14.200 --> 0:10:16.440 because I also felt healthier. But I remember when I 0:10:16.440 --> 0:10:19.080 met my fiance, I was like, all right, this just 0:10:19.120 --> 0:10:21.880 feels so different. And I remember telling my therapist too, 0:10:21.920 --> 0:10:26.160 I said, for the first time, I feel safe, and 0:10:26.160 --> 0:10:28.840 that feels weird to me. It almost was like I 0:10:28.840 --> 0:10:31.760 felt unsafe, but I wouldn't feel unsafe. I felt safe, 0:10:31.960 --> 0:10:35.280 but so safe that it felt I didn't know if 0:10:35.280 --> 0:10:37.960 I could trust it because I've never felt that before. 0:10:37.960 --> 0:10:39.800 And so I had to work through that, going okay, 0:10:39.840 --> 0:10:42.520 what is what is a man showing up doing what 0:10:42.600 --> 0:10:46.559 he says like actually does like this is this is amazing? 0:10:46.600 --> 0:10:50.080 And then it's me going okay, I have to show 0:10:50.160 --> 0:10:52.560 up as my healthy self and not be anxiously attached, 0:10:52.559 --> 0:10:54.720 which I wasn't. It was just but it was just 0:10:54.800 --> 0:10:57.920 it was wild to go, Okay, now there's two healthy 0:10:57.920 --> 0:11:02.800 people that are doing you know, that have done a 0:11:02.880 --> 0:11:05.400 million wrong things in the past, that are doing the 0:11:05.440 --> 0:11:08.360 right things now. But to trust what it was then, 0:11:08.480 --> 0:11:11.599 like I've always had it up and down relationship and 0:11:11.640 --> 0:11:12.959 we've been together for a little over a year and 0:11:12.960 --> 0:11:15.880 we've never had a fight, Like, but past relationships it'd 0:11:15.920 --> 0:11:18.360 be I mean again, when's the next show gonna drop 0:11:18.400 --> 0:11:21.520 explosive fights? Like? And I'm like, this just feels different 0:11:21.600 --> 0:11:24.080 and it feels almost foreign to me. And I'm like, 0:11:24.160 --> 0:11:26.720 that's that was a hard thing to process when I 0:11:26.760 --> 0:11:29.160 first met him, because I'm like, wait, we haven't fought yet. 0:11:29.200 --> 0:11:31.800 This is weird, you know, like this feels in a 0:11:31.840 --> 0:11:35.120 weird way way unsafe. I'm so confused how that's even possible. 0:11:35.880 --> 0:11:38.720 Yeah, well, I mean, thank you for being so vulnerable. 0:11:38.920 --> 0:11:40.560 I can totally relate to that. 0:11:40.880 --> 0:11:44.840 One. Fighting is actually healthy. Conflict is healthy. So I 0:11:44.880 --> 0:11:45.280 hear you. 0:11:45.559 --> 0:11:47.360 We have conflicts, but we don't have like when I 0:11:47.360 --> 0:11:51.280 say fights to me, fights are like explosive, you know, 0:11:52.880 --> 0:11:55.920 slam doors nasty words like that was the stuff that 0:11:55.960 --> 0:11:58.080 I've that I've been used to, and but we definitely 0:11:58.080 --> 0:12:00.080 have like I don't agree with you. We get a 0:12:00.120 --> 0:12:05.400 little snippy, but not ever like a full blown thing, right. 0:12:05.280 --> 0:12:10.200 Yeah, no, And I hear you, yeah, I conflict is 0:12:10.240 --> 0:12:12.440 healthy rupture and repair, which we can get into. But 0:12:12.480 --> 0:12:15.120 what I hear you saying, which is really awesome and 0:12:15.480 --> 0:12:18.120 so awesome for the listeners to hear, is that you 0:12:18.120 --> 0:12:20.960 took some time to yourself. You probably worked on some 0:12:21.120 --> 0:12:25.679 relationships in your life, building some security outside of romance, 0:12:25.880 --> 0:12:28.760 and then when someone came in that wasn't high conflict, 0:12:29.280 --> 0:12:32.440 it felt different in your nervous system, and it took 0:12:32.480 --> 0:12:35.160 your time to understand that this is actually a new 0:12:35.160 --> 0:12:39.080 way to love, right right, and so, and old stuff 0:12:39.120 --> 0:12:42.000 can still come up, and it probably will because that's 0:12:42.000 --> 0:12:44.840 what your system. But because he was consistent and you 0:12:44.880 --> 0:12:47.640 were consistent and it was new, you're able to find 0:12:47.640 --> 0:12:51.559 a new sense of safety in that in that relationship. 0:12:51.600 --> 0:12:56.760 And that's amazing and that's what every anxious person strives 0:12:56.800 --> 0:12:59.840 to hear, that that that possibility is there. And I 0:13:00.760 --> 0:13:02.960 I can relate to what you're sharing in terms of 0:13:03.000 --> 0:13:07.040 taking some time off and building some safety outside of romance, 0:13:07.160 --> 0:13:10.400 and then relearning what romance might feel like in your 0:13:10.480 --> 0:13:15.680 nervous system and understanding that familiar is different than safe, 0:13:16.360 --> 0:13:20.000 and so what might feel safe actually might feel scary 0:13:20.559 --> 0:13:22.920 for a lot of people who struggle with vulnerability and 0:13:22.960 --> 0:13:26.360 true intimacy. Right, And so if we don't do the work, 0:13:26.440 --> 0:13:29.480 a really safe person might bring up, wow, this is 0:13:29.520 --> 0:13:32.880 real connection here versus like you know, one of those 0:13:32.960 --> 0:13:36.600 fairy tale or fantasy bonds that feel like more like escape, 0:13:36.760 --> 0:13:38.319 like escaping from our pain. 0:13:39.000 --> 0:13:41.880 Right, No, that makes sense. And there's a thing you said, 0:13:41.920 --> 0:13:45.040 you created this self full method. What is that? 0:13:46.040 --> 0:13:46.360 Yeah? 0:13:46.400 --> 0:13:48.160 So I talk about in the book, I talk about 0:13:48.160 --> 0:13:51.880 different nervous system states, and I talk about people who 0:13:51.880 --> 0:13:55.959 are anxiously attached being more selfless. So we self abandon 0:13:56.200 --> 0:14:00.120 and we temperature check people, please, we can leave our body. 0:14:00.240 --> 0:14:02.360 We are like we know, I know what my dog 0:14:02.440 --> 0:14:05.280 is thinking right now, right, Like, we're very like in 0:14:05.360 --> 0:14:07.480 touch with our environment and we've had to. 0:14:07.480 --> 0:14:08.199 Be to survive. 0:14:08.880 --> 0:14:11.800 And that's a state, right, And then there's another state, 0:14:11.880 --> 0:14:15.360 and we attract people who tend to go to this state, right, 0:14:15.440 --> 0:14:18.280 this is the avoidant where they're very self focused and 0:14:18.320 --> 0:14:21.240 they can shut down and not be attuned to the 0:14:21.280 --> 0:14:22.080 needs of others. 0:14:22.120 --> 0:14:24.560 So like we have these states, and both. 0:14:24.360 --> 0:14:28.880 The selfless and selfish states are born of sympathetic activation. 0:14:29.080 --> 0:14:31.520 So both those states of I'm going to overtake care 0:14:31.560 --> 0:14:33.440 of you and I'm going to people please you is 0:14:33.440 --> 0:14:36.520 out of fear, right, and I'm going to only focus 0:14:36.560 --> 0:14:38.480 on myself and I'm just going to stay focused on 0:14:38.520 --> 0:14:41.400 myself as actually born of fear too. And then there's 0:14:41.440 --> 0:14:44.280 a middle state I call self full state, and it's 0:14:44.320 --> 0:14:47.240 really a ventral state of connection. And we are actually 0:14:47.280 --> 0:14:49.800 oscillating through these states all day long. It's not like 0:14:49.840 --> 0:14:52.400 we stay in one. We might gravitate towards one when 0:14:52.440 --> 0:14:56.200 we're scared, but self full is like when we're feeling 0:14:56.240 --> 0:14:59.080 so much safety in our relationship that there is a 0:14:59.120 --> 0:15:03.040 fluid sense of exchange. We can ask for our needs, 0:15:03.120 --> 0:15:05.720 we can speak up, we have boundaries, we can get close, 0:15:05.800 --> 0:15:09.520 we can move away. Basically we feel safe and so 0:15:09.720 --> 0:15:12.280 different things take us out of safety. I can honestly 0:15:12.320 --> 0:15:15.280 say that, and if you're listening, like I can, I 0:15:15.320 --> 0:15:17.800 can be selfless at one point in my day, and 0:15:17.840 --> 0:15:21.080 I can feel selfish and in my relationships if there's 0:15:21.200 --> 0:15:24.880 enough safety being built, we hopefully are in the self 0:15:24.920 --> 0:15:27.920 ful state more and more that window of tolerance expanse. 0:15:28.320 --> 0:15:29.800 Does that make sense? Yeah? 0:15:29.840 --> 0:15:31.920 Are you also saying too when you when I hear 0:15:31.960 --> 0:15:34.680 you say that is on the flip side of where 0:15:34.720 --> 0:15:36.680 the attachment stuff is. Maybe one day you can be 0:15:36.720 --> 0:15:39.120 avoidant one. Is that the same kind? Does that work 0:15:39.160 --> 0:15:40.920 for the same thing? Where like sometimes you can be 0:15:40.920 --> 0:15:43.480 the avoidant one or the anxious one or is it 0:15:43.560 --> 0:15:44.880 is that what your're a meaning is Yes? 0:15:45.720 --> 0:15:48.400 And like this and not to get too deep into 0:15:48.480 --> 0:15:51.880 attachment theory, but like our attachment style can fit into 0:15:51.920 --> 0:15:55.840 a category and it changes, and we have avoidant protectors 0:15:55.880 --> 0:15:59.600 and we like I will personally move and I don't 0:15:59.640 --> 0:16:02.360 know so much anymore. Actually I don't think I do 0:16:02.400 --> 0:16:04.800 this anymore. But I typically would move into the maybe 0:16:04.840 --> 0:16:08.360 the people pleasing state if I'm scared, But the more 0:16:08.400 --> 0:16:11.240 work that I do in maybe not so much, I 0:16:11.320 --> 0:16:13.920 might use my voice more and if I'm really triggered, 0:16:13.920 --> 0:16:17.560 I might move to the other pendulum of like selfish state. 0:16:17.640 --> 0:16:19.200 Right, So, like it's. 0:16:19.120 --> 0:16:22.440 Kind of knowing where your nervous system kind of gravitates 0:16:22.480 --> 0:16:25.720 to and with whom, and it very much. I don't 0:16:25.760 --> 0:16:29.920 know that it relates directly to attachment theory, but almost 0:16:29.960 --> 0:16:32.760 like the protectors or the way we cope with fear 0:16:33.520 --> 0:16:36.480 in our relationships and our nervous system. 0:16:36.560 --> 0:16:40.000 These states, and as long as it's the pendulum goes 0:16:40.080 --> 0:16:45.160 from let's just say avoidant to secure avoidance, so it's 0:16:45.320 --> 0:16:49.160 at least but not between the other not great ones 0:16:49.200 --> 0:16:51.840 like anxious avoidant anxious avoidant, where at least it's like 0:16:52.200 --> 0:16:56.000 anxious secure. A secure is that like the kind of 0:16:56.040 --> 0:16:58.920 the hope that you're at least you have a piece 0:16:58.960 --> 0:17:00.000 of the secure in you. 0:17:01.040 --> 0:17:02.720 Yeah, I mean, obviously that's the hope. 0:17:02.760 --> 0:17:05.439 Like right now I'm not activated, So right now I 0:17:05.480 --> 0:17:07.679 feel self full, like I can speak up with you. 0:17:07.800 --> 0:17:10.880 I feel comfortable sharing my voice, like you know, I'm 0:17:10.880 --> 0:17:13.159 not over people pleasing, so like you kind of know 0:17:13.320 --> 0:17:16.680 when that stuff comes up. The problem with so, if 0:17:16.680 --> 0:17:18.919 it is a pendulum or a spectrum, is people on 0:17:18.960 --> 0:17:23.919 the self selfless state, so they anxiously attached or more codependent, 0:17:23.920 --> 0:17:25.680 and the people on the selfish which you might look 0:17:25.680 --> 0:17:30.280 at is narcissism or extreme avoidance. Right, both those states 0:17:30.320 --> 0:17:33.840 are born in fear. So the problem with those states 0:17:33.880 --> 0:17:36.879 is they're never getting into connection. So if we're in 0:17:36.880 --> 0:17:39.560 a people pleasing state constantly, or if we're in a 0:17:39.640 --> 0:17:42.800 state of self like we're shut down and only focused 0:17:42.800 --> 0:17:46.320 on ourselves. It's not that there's anything wrong with those states. 0:17:46.440 --> 0:17:49.720 Inherently there are states of protection, but they're not getting 0:17:49.720 --> 0:17:52.880 into connection. So we can't get into connection when we're 0:17:52.920 --> 0:17:56.359 in sympathetic activation like when you're in fight flight or 0:17:56.400 --> 0:17:59.240 people pleasing or all of this, we're not calming our 0:17:59.240 --> 0:18:02.399 nervous system down enough to feel safe enough to form 0:18:02.520 --> 0:18:07.080 into missing connections. So those states tend to put people 0:18:07.200 --> 0:18:10.640 to people into fear so much that they're missing connection 0:18:10.920 --> 0:18:11.879 in the relationship. 0:18:12.040 --> 0:18:15.160 Does that make sense that that makes sense? Yeah, for sure. 0:18:27.880 --> 0:18:31.360 I also know that I can. It doesn't happen a lot, 0:18:31.480 --> 0:18:34.480 but I can get so out of body sometimes because 0:18:34.600 --> 0:18:38.399 of past triggers that I can't even have a conversation 0:18:38.600 --> 0:18:42.040 until I'm out of that mode because nothing that is 0:18:42.080 --> 0:18:45.639 said to me, I will rationalize in a like an 0:18:45.760 --> 0:18:48.840 in a in my right brain at all, I'll just 0:18:49.680 --> 0:18:52.760 I'll react, react, react, react, And it's not so I'm 0:18:52.800 --> 0:18:55.680 like and it's you know, my fancy sees that now 0:18:55.720 --> 0:18:57.119 he's just like you know, I love you, and I'm 0:18:57.160 --> 0:18:59.800 here when you're you know, when you're ready to to talk. 0:18:59.880 --> 0:19:01.720 But I'm like sometimes I'm just like I need a 0:19:01.760 --> 0:19:04.960 minute because I'm like, I can just be so activated 0:19:05.000 --> 0:19:07.640 with passings that are not have nothing to do with 0:19:08.160 --> 0:19:11.560 the actual thing that's happening. Is just is a trigger 0:19:11.600 --> 0:19:15.080 from something that came up in a conversation that has 0:19:15.119 --> 0:19:16.040 nothing to do with him. 0:19:16.240 --> 0:19:18.960 You know, yeah, absolutely, I understand that. 0:19:19.160 --> 0:19:21.880 And you know, for the listeners, it's like we can 0:19:21.920 --> 0:19:24.160 get awakened at any moment, and I like to say 0:19:24.160 --> 0:19:26.639 it awakened instead of triggered, because something old was. 0:19:26.640 --> 0:19:29.439 Awakened in you. And when you're like, I'm not in 0:19:29.480 --> 0:19:31.560 the right brain, you're literally not in the part of 0:19:31.840 --> 0:19:34.840 your brain like has empathy and can connect because you 0:19:35.040 --> 0:19:38.760 are activated in a way that your brain is running 0:19:38.920 --> 0:19:41.439 for life or shutting like whatever it's doing, it's in 0:19:41.480 --> 0:19:45.280 a survival stance, and so then your thoughts are survival 0:19:45.400 --> 0:19:49.560 or defensive or accusatory because your system is activated. And 0:19:49.600 --> 0:19:52.160 then it's very hard to get back into the sense 0:19:52.200 --> 0:19:55.840 of we or calmness. And it's great that your fiance 0:19:56.040 --> 0:19:58.960 is able to say, Okay, like I'm here, I'm here 0:19:59.000 --> 0:20:01.800 for you, And so how you get to a place 0:20:01.840 --> 0:20:04.280 of de escalating yourself and you get back to a 0:20:04.320 --> 0:20:07.119 place of connection and you're able to understand, like, I 0:20:07.160 --> 0:20:10.280 can't connect in that state, and so he's not provoking 0:20:10.280 --> 0:20:13.120 you in that state because he's not activated when you're 0:20:13.119 --> 0:20:15.439 in that state. So he's able to give you that 0:20:15.560 --> 0:20:16.480 space to give. 0:20:16.359 --> 0:20:19.440 Yourself where another person might say, oh my god, she's 0:20:19.480 --> 0:20:23.200 in this activated state. Now my nervous system is subconsciously 0:20:23.240 --> 0:20:25.320 picking up on her activation, and now I'm going to 0:20:25.320 --> 0:20:27.280 get activated, and now we're going to fight. 0:20:27.720 --> 0:20:29.800 And that was the dance of all my other past 0:20:30.160 --> 0:20:35.640 where it's just you know, in all of those bad areas. 0:20:35.680 --> 0:20:43.880 But when someone is going through like anxiously attached, something's 0:20:43.920 --> 0:20:46.920 coming up for them. What are some tips to regulate 0:20:47.480 --> 0:20:49.480 and not go left or right? 0:20:50.119 --> 0:20:51.800 What? Another beautiful question. 0:20:51.960 --> 0:20:55.080 So the missing developmental link for people who have anxious 0:20:55.080 --> 0:20:59.280 attachment is they don't have the ability to self regulate. 0:21:00.240 --> 0:21:03.560 So when they will be yeah, yeah, I know, I 0:21:03.840 --> 0:21:04.560 like I struggle. 0:21:04.600 --> 0:21:08.680 I actually struggle a lot with sleep like self downregulating right, Like, 0:21:09.200 --> 0:21:12.359 So when we're born, we are not born with a 0:21:12.400 --> 0:21:17.520 fully developed parasympathetic nervous system. So if our primary caregiver 0:21:17.760 --> 0:21:21.080 was not in their parasympathetic nervous system, and for those 0:21:21.080 --> 0:21:23.960 who are listening, that's like the system that like helso 0:21:24.119 --> 0:21:28.159 soothe and calm down, rest and digest. So if my 0:21:28.320 --> 0:21:30.679 mom and bless her heart, she wasn't and that was 0:21:30.720 --> 0:21:32.560