Speaker 1: Wind Down with Janet Kramer and I'm Heart Radio Podcast.
Speaker 2: All Right, Today's Thursday Therapy. We've got Jessica Bomb coming in.
Speaker 2: She's got a new book called Anxiously Attached Becoming More
Speaker 2: Secure in Life and Love. Let's get her on. Well, Jessica,
Speaker 2: I'm really excited to have you on today's Thursday Therapy
Speaker 2: episode of wind Down. Your book is well. First of all,
Speaker 2: I think it's such an interesting topic because I recently
Speaker 2: said this to my dad, because you know, I've done
Speaker 2: therapy forever and one of the things that I learned
Speaker 2: about myself is I'm extremely or I was. I'm a
Speaker 2: recovering anxiously attached person. So I that was how because
Speaker 2: I just never felt that love or the you know,
Speaker 2: as a child, I always kind of I craved the love,
Speaker 2: so I would cling on to people, which then you know,
Speaker 2: most and most of the time the people that I'm
Speaker 2: clinging on to were avoidant, so which then made me
Speaker 2: more anxiously attached. So do you see that as being
Speaker 2: how people kind of grow into this anxiously attached just
Speaker 2: from their childhood.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Absolutely, And I talk about this a lot in
Speaker 3: my book.
Speaker 1: But really anxious attachment and attachment in general starts so
Speaker 1: early on, and anxious attachment starts in our nervous system,
Speaker 1: So we didn't get a lot of lending of the
Speaker 1: parasympathetic nervous system from our primary caregiver to learn a
Speaker 1: lot of self regulation. So we need a lot of
Speaker 1: coregulation and we tend to depend on other people to
Speaker 1: help us feel safe. There are other hallmarks that happen
Speaker 1: when we're younger, and one of them is inconsistency. So
Speaker 1: even if we form a connection, we have a somatic
Speaker 1: feeling in our body that the connection could drop, and
Speaker 1: some people equate this to abandonment issues or quote unquoteqote
Speaker 1: dependent traits. Those all stem from really early wiring that
Speaker 1: we might not even be conscious of. And by the way,
Speaker 1: our parents are not guilty, like they're doing the best
Speaker 1: can in their nervous system responses. But all of this
Speaker 1: is wired way before real really we really even know.
Speaker 1: And so we take those early adaptive patterns and we
Speaker 1: reenact them in our romantic relationships, and so that's where
Speaker 1: it starts to become like mind blowing.
Speaker 3: It's like why am I acting this way? Why am
Speaker 3: I clinging?
Speaker 1: Well? Part of you remembers inconsistency. A part of you
Speaker 1: has some abandonment in there. A part of you is
Speaker 1: scared of disconnection, as you should be, and a part
Speaker 1: of you is so fearful that when that gets activated
Speaker 1: or awakened in you, you reenact what a baby would do,
Speaker 1: which is to reach out and maybe get a little
Speaker 1: bit clingy, and you know, and then we pick people
Speaker 1: who are overwhelmed by that and push us away, and
Speaker 1: then we're stuck in this miserable anxious avoidant dance, which
Speaker 1: I talk about in detail in the book.
Speaker 2: So for those that are listening that don't know, you
Speaker 2: know what anxious attachment is. I mean, what would you say?
Speaker 2: How could someone go, Okay, here's the five second quiz
Speaker 2: that would go, all right, I'm anxiously attached. Because it
Speaker 2: says here that forty five forty seven million Americans identify
Speaker 2: as having an anxious anxious attachment style. Whether that being
Speaker 2: what anxiously attached avoidant. I don't know what the other
Speaker 2: ones are. I just know the two because I've either
Speaker 2: been one or been with the other one, right, right, right, So.
Speaker 1: There's four different there's four different styles. There's secure, there's anxious,
Speaker 1: there's avoidant there. Yeah, secure makes up a good portion
Speaker 1: of the population. The forty seven million is talking about
Speaker 1: just anxious, and then there's insecure. There's the other insecure
Speaker 1: is avoidant, and then there's fearful, and those are like
Speaker 1: kind of the regular names.
Speaker 3: So i'll, you know, i'll.
Speaker 1: Avoidant is very different than anxious, and so anxious people,
Speaker 1: like I said, the hallmark really knowing, are more of
Speaker 1: the quota pendent traits.
Speaker 3: So they can leave their body.
Speaker 1: And sense what their partner is feeling, and they can
Speaker 1: be people pleasing and self abandoned in order to stay
Speaker 1: in connection, because connection is our biological imperative when we're
Speaker 1: really small, if we learn to monitor our parents' needs
Speaker 1: or understand the temperature checking of the room, we take
Speaker 1: those adaptive strategies and we bring them into our adult relationships.
Speaker 1: So that inconsistency or feeling like the shoe is going
Speaker 1: to drop is a hallmark of anxious attachment.
Speaker 3: And I guess the biggest thing I want to drive.
Speaker 1: Home is these really early ways in which our nervous
Speaker 1: system tries to stay in connection and adapts it are
Speaker 1: the same ways we end up staying in connection and
Speaker 1: adapting when we get adult, we don't change because we
Speaker 1: are an adult. We have conscious awareness that we're an
Speaker 1: adult and we're in a relation. We have parts of
Speaker 1: ourselves that are still responding to fear in ways that
Speaker 1: we learned when we were small.
Speaker 2: What age do you think that starts or that you
Speaker 2: remember that attachment in.
Speaker 3: Womb we have cellular memory.
Speaker 1: In womb, we internalize like we have cellular memory and womb,
Speaker 1: and we have something called implicit memory or sensational memory
Speaker 1: from zero to about four. So when you're in a relationship,
Speaker 1: in your gut drops, or you have really strong sensations,
Speaker 1: or you feel a big panic, some of that is memory.
Speaker 3: That is actually memory.
Speaker 1: It's not the memory you think about explicitly, like you
Speaker 1: remember going to Disneyland. Sensational experiences are how we store
Speaker 1: memory before that part of our brain develops. So when
Speaker 1: your boyfriend doesn't contact you back, or when you see
Speaker 1: someone really checked out, or when someone's on their phone
Speaker 1: and they're not paying attention to you and your whole
Speaker 1: body lights up, that is your memory system saying connection
Speaker 1: is gone.
Speaker 3: This is really scary.
Speaker 1: I'm shifting out of a sense of safety into a
Speaker 1: more activated place.
Speaker 2: Yeah, It's fascinating to me the whole thing, because I
Speaker 2: mean I definitely have always been anxiously attached up until
Speaker 2: about little after my divorce. I dated someone too afterwards,
Speaker 2: and it was just that same thing falling into the
Speaker 2: you know, into someone who was showing the patterns of
Speaker 2: you know, saying their present but then doing X, Y
Speaker 2: and Z things that weren't lining up. That triggered that
Speaker 2: anxious feeling that I had in my last marriage where
Speaker 2: I was like, can't trust it, not safe and then
Speaker 2: I just cling onto to not lose, you know, and
Speaker 2: to feel secure and happy in all the things. But
Speaker 2: it was again such a disservice to myself because I'm like,
Speaker 2: this is you know, I'm clinging onto something in someone
Speaker 2: that's not healthy for me, and I'm not healthy. So
Speaker 2: it was like the too healthy you know, unhealthy people
Speaker 2: together and like that to me is is interesting because
Speaker 2: a lot of people will reach out and go, okay,
Speaker 2: I'm with this person and he's cheated again, or what
Speaker 2: should I do? And I'm like, you know, of course,
Speaker 2: my whole being is like now knowing where my road
Speaker 2: was was like leave, Like what do you do? But
Speaker 2: I can't say that right, So I'm like, you have
Speaker 2: to make decision for yourself. You'll know when enough is enough.
Speaker 2: But would you say those people are then anxiously attached
Speaker 2: because of the wounding in a relationship.
Speaker 1: Yeah, your questions are so simple but yet very very deep.
Speaker 1: And we have an anticipated somatic experience of what a
Speaker 1: relationship and connection might feel like, and we might gravitate
Speaker 1: towards people who feel familiar and reenact some trauma in
Speaker 1: our relationship, and circular dances or cycles might happen. And
Speaker 1: because connection is literally our biological imperative, we can be
Speaker 1: very scared to leave the relationship for so many levels,
Speaker 1: Like consciously we're scared because being alone is hard, but
Speaker 1: subconsciously there could be other things going on that keep
Speaker 1: us as well in relationship patterns that are really consciously
Speaker 1: we know are unhealthy for us, but are so hard
Speaker 1: to leave. And so you know, we are designed to
Speaker 1: stay in connection even when it's unhealthy. We will forego
Speaker 1: some things to stay in connection because.
Speaker 3: That is our survival.
Speaker 1: The more work we get we do with what lives
Speaker 1: in our body and our embodied memory and our and
Speaker 1: our childhood and connecting to the root of these fears
Speaker 1: and these things the allure of the cycle or the
Speaker 1: allure of someone who really can't meet our needs lessons,
Speaker 1: and we start to possibly attract people who are more
Speaker 1: present and consistent and start to help our nervous system
Speaker 1: understand what is healthy love, which feels very different from
Speaker 1: kind of a roller coaster relationship. So you're you're describing
Speaker 1: maybe what people would talk about as trauma bonding or
Speaker 1: codependency or twin flame, and it's like, all of these
Speaker 1: terms are you know, we can judge them, but truly
Speaker 1: we need to understand that we pick people for a
Speaker 1: reason and usually reenact a lot of what our belief
Speaker 1: systems in our body anticipates, and we stay for a
Speaker 1: lot of reasons, and there shouldn't be a lot of
Speaker 1: judgment there.
Speaker 3: I would just hope there's a lot.
Speaker 1: Of curiosity around, Okay, I'm not getting my needs met
Speaker 1: in this relationship and it's really hard to leave. Can
Speaker 1: I get some support around this? And where can I heal?
Speaker 1: And the more you heal, the more the right decision
Speaker 1: hopefully comes through for you.
Speaker 2: I think one of the coolest things that I my
Speaker 2: transformation after my divorce was realizing, like a the work
Speaker 2: that I still had I had so much to do
Speaker 2: still that I had a big part to play, and
Speaker 2: then if I wanted to attract a healthy relationship that
Speaker 2: I'm like, I had to do even more work, even
Speaker 2: though I'm like, I've been doing therapy forever, Why am
Speaker 2: I still having to like go? So it's like but
Speaker 2: then it was just reworking different things. And then you know,
Speaker 2: when I was I was feeling more healthy and getting
Speaker 2: out there, and I took a little time off, just
Speaker 2: a little, but I felt that I was choosing different
Speaker 2: because I also felt healthier. But I remember when I
Speaker 2: met my fiance, I was like, all right, this just
Speaker 2: feels so different. And I remember telling my therapist too,
Speaker 2: I said, for the first time, I feel safe, and
Speaker 2: that feels weird to me. It almost was like I
Speaker 2: felt unsafe, but I wouldn't feel unsafe. I felt safe,
Speaker 2: but so safe that it felt I didn't know if
Speaker 2: I could trust it because I've never felt that before.
Speaker 2: And so I had to work through that, going okay,
Speaker 2: what is what is a man showing up doing what
Speaker 2: he says like actually does like this is this is amazing?
Speaker 2: And then it's me going okay, I have to show
Speaker 2: up as my healthy self and not be anxiously attached,
Speaker 2: which I wasn't. It was just but it was just
Speaker 2: it was wild to go, Okay, now there's two healthy
Speaker 2: people that are doing you know, that have done a
Speaker 2: million wrong things in the past, that are doing the
Speaker 2: right things now. But to trust what it was then,
Speaker 2: like I've always had it up and down relationship and
Speaker 2: we've been together for a little over a year and
Speaker 2: we've never had a fight, Like, but past relationships it'd
Speaker 2: be I mean again, when's the next show gonna drop
Speaker 2: explosive fights? Like? And I'm like, this just feels different
Speaker 2: and it feels almost foreign to me. And I'm like,
Speaker 2: that's that was a hard thing to process when I
Speaker 2: first met him, because I'm like, wait, we haven't fought yet.
Speaker 2: This is weird, you know, like this feels in a
Speaker 2: weird way way unsafe. I'm so confused how that's even possible.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I mean, thank you for being so vulnerable.
Speaker 1: I can totally relate to that.
Speaker 3: One. Fighting is actually healthy. Conflict is healthy. So I
Speaker 3: hear you.
Speaker 2: We have conflicts, but we don't have like when I
Speaker 2: say fights to me, fights are like explosive, you know,
Speaker 2: slam doors nasty words like that was the stuff that
Speaker 2: I've that I've been used to, and but we definitely
Speaker 2: have like I don't agree with you. We get a
Speaker 2: little snippy, but not ever like a full blown thing, right.
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, And I hear you, yeah, I conflict is
Speaker 1: healthy rupture and repair, which we can get into. But
Speaker 1: what I hear you saying, which is really awesome and
Speaker 1: so awesome for the listeners to hear, is that you
Speaker 1: took some time to yourself. You probably worked on some
Speaker 1: relationships in your life, building some security outside of romance,
Speaker 1: and then when someone came in that wasn't high conflict,
Speaker 1: it felt different in your nervous system, and it took
Speaker 1: your time to understand that this is actually a new
Speaker 1: way to love, right right, and so, and old stuff
Speaker 1: can still come up, and it probably will because that's
Speaker 1: what your system. But because he was consistent and you
Speaker 1: were consistent and it was new, you're able to find
Speaker 1: a new sense of safety in that in that relationship.
Speaker 1: And that's amazing and that's what every anxious person strives
Speaker 1: to hear, that that that possibility is there. And I
Speaker 1: I can relate to what you're sharing in terms of
Speaker 1: taking some time off and building some safety outside of romance,
Speaker 1: and then relearning what romance might feel like in your
Speaker 1: nervous system and understanding that familiar is different than safe,
Speaker 1: and so what might feel safe actually might feel scary
Speaker 1: for a lot of people who struggle with vulnerability and
Speaker 1: true intimacy. Right, And so if we don't do the work,
Speaker 1: a really safe person might bring up, wow, this is
Speaker 1: real connection here versus like you know, one of those
Speaker 1: fairy tale or fantasy bonds that feel like more like escape,
Speaker 1: like escaping from our pain.
Speaker 2: Right, No, that makes sense. And there's a thing you said,
Speaker 2: you created this self full method. What is that?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 1: So I talk about in the book, I talk about
Speaker 1: different nervous system states, and I talk about people who
Speaker 1: are anxiously attached being more selfless. So we self abandon
Speaker 1: and we temperature check people, please, we can leave our body.
Speaker 1: We are like we know, I know what my dog
Speaker 1: is thinking right now, right, Like, we're very like in
Speaker 1: touch with our environment and we've had to.
Speaker 3: Be to survive.
Speaker 1: And that's a state, right, And then there's another state,
Speaker 1: and we attract people who tend to go to this state, right,
Speaker 1: this is the avoidant where they're very self focused and
Speaker 1: they can shut down and not be attuned to the
Speaker 1: needs of others.
Speaker 3: So like we have these states, and both.
Speaker 1: The selfless and selfish states are born of sympathetic activation.
Speaker 1: So both those states of I'm going to overtake care
Speaker 1: of you and I'm going to people please you is
Speaker 1: out of fear, right, and I'm going to only focus
Speaker 1: on myself and I'm just going to stay focused on
Speaker 1: myself as actually born of fear too. And then there's
Speaker 1: a middle state I call self full state, and it's
Speaker 1: really a ventral state of connection. And we are actually
Speaker 1: oscillating through these states all day long. It's not like
Speaker 1: we stay in one. We might gravitate towards one when
Speaker 1: we're scared, but self full is like when we're feeling
Speaker 1: so much safety in our relationship that there is a
Speaker 1: fluid sense of exchange. We can ask for our needs,
Speaker 1: we can speak up, we have boundaries, we can get close,
Speaker 1: we can move away. Basically we feel safe and so
Speaker 1: different things take us out of safety. I can honestly
Speaker 1: say that, and if you're listening, like I can, I
Speaker 1: can be selfless at one point in my day, and
Speaker 1: I can feel selfish and in my relationships if there's
Speaker 1: enough safety being built, we hopefully are in the self
Speaker 1: ful state more and more that window of tolerance expanse.
Speaker 3: Does that make sense? Yeah?
Speaker 2: Are you also saying too when you when I hear
Speaker 2: you say that is on the flip side of where
Speaker 2: the attachment stuff is. Maybe one day you can be
Speaker 2: avoidant one. Is that the same kind? Does that work
Speaker 2: for the same thing? Where like sometimes you can be
Speaker 2: the avoidant one or the anxious one or is it
Speaker 2: is that what your're a meaning is Yes?
Speaker 1: And like this and not to get too deep into
Speaker 1: attachment theory, but like our attachment style can fit into
Speaker 1: a category and it changes, and we have avoidant protectors
Speaker 1: and we like I will personally move and I don't
Speaker 1: know so much anymore. Actually I don't think I do
Speaker 1: this anymore. But I typically would move into the maybe
Speaker 1: the people pleasing state if I'm scared, But the more
Speaker 1: work that I do in maybe not so much, I
Speaker 1: might use my voice more and if I'm really triggered,
Speaker 1: I might move to the other pendulum of like selfish state.
Speaker 3: Right, So, like it's.
Speaker 1: Kind of knowing where your nervous system kind of gravitates
Speaker 1: to and with whom, and it very much. I don't
Speaker 1: know that it relates directly to attachment theory, but almost
Speaker 1: like the protectors or the way we cope with fear
Speaker 1: in our relationships and our nervous system.
Speaker 2: These states, and as long as it's the pendulum goes
Speaker 2: from let's just say avoidant to secure avoidance, so it's
Speaker 2: at least but not between the other not great ones
Speaker 2: like anxious avoidant anxious avoidant, where at least it's like
Speaker 2: anxious secure. A secure is that like the kind of
Speaker 2: the hope that you're at least you have a piece
Speaker 2: of the secure in you.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, obviously that's the hope.
Speaker 1: Like right now I'm not activated, So right now I
Speaker 1: feel self full, like I can speak up with you.
Speaker 1: I feel comfortable sharing my voice, like you know, I'm
Speaker 1: not over people pleasing, so like you kind of know
Speaker 1: when that stuff comes up. The problem with so, if
Speaker 1: it is a pendulum or a spectrum, is people on
Speaker 1: the self selfless state, so they anxiously attached or more codependent,
Speaker 1: and the people on the selfish which you might look
Speaker 1: at is narcissism or extreme avoidance. Right, both those states
Speaker 1: are born in fear. So the problem with those states
Speaker 1: is they're never getting into connection. So if we're in
Speaker 1: a people pleasing state constantly, or if we're in a
Speaker 1: state of self like we're shut down and only focused
Speaker 1: on ourselves. It's not that there's anything wrong with those states.
Speaker 1: Inherently there are states of protection, but they're not getting
Speaker 1: into connection. So we can't get into connection when we're
Speaker 1: in sympathetic activation like when you're in fight flight or
Speaker 1: people pleasing or all of this, we're not calming our
Speaker 1: nervous system down enough to feel safe enough to form
Speaker 1: into missing connections. So those states tend to put people
Speaker 1: to people into fear so much that they're missing connection
Speaker 1: in the relationship.
Speaker 2: Does that make sense that that makes sense? Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 2: I also know that I can. It doesn't happen a lot,
Speaker 2: but I can get so out of body sometimes because
Speaker 2: of past triggers that I can't even have a conversation
Speaker 2: until I'm out of that mode because nothing that is
Speaker 2: said to me, I will rationalize in a like an
Speaker 2: in a in my right brain at all, I'll just
Speaker 2: I'll react, react, react, react, And it's not so I'm
Speaker 2: like and it's you know, my fancy sees that now
Speaker 2: he's just like you know, I love you, and I'm
Speaker 2: here when you're you know, when you're ready to to talk.
Speaker 2: But I'm like sometimes I'm just like I need a
Speaker 2: minute because I'm like, I can just be so activated
Speaker 2: with passings that are not have nothing to do with
Speaker 2: the actual thing that's happening. Is just is a trigger
Speaker 2: from something that came up in a conversation that has
Speaker 2: nothing to do with him.
Speaker 3: You know, yeah, absolutely, I understand that.
Speaker 1: And you know, for the listeners, it's like we can
Speaker 1: get awakened at any moment, and I like to say
Speaker 1: it awakened instead of triggered, because something old was.
Speaker 3: Awakened in you. And when you're like, I'm not in
Speaker 3: the right brain, you're literally not in the part of
Speaker 3: your brain like has empathy and can connect because you
Speaker 3: are activated in a way that your brain is running
Speaker 3: for life or shutting like whatever it's doing, it's in
Speaker 3: a survival stance, and so then your thoughts are survival
Speaker 3: or defensive or accusatory because your system is activated. And
Speaker 3: then it's very hard to get back into the sense
Speaker 3: of we or calmness. And it's great that your fiance
Speaker 3: is able to say, Okay, like I'm here, I'm here
Speaker 3: for you, And so how you get to a place
Speaker 3: of de escalating yourself and you get back to a
Speaker 3: place of connection and you're able to understand, like, I
Speaker 3: can't connect in that state, and so he's not provoking
Speaker 3: you in that state because he's not activated when you're
Speaker 3: in that state. So he's able to give you that
Speaker 3: space to give.
Speaker 1: Yourself where another person might say, oh my god, she's
Speaker 1: in this activated state. Now my nervous system is subconsciously
Speaker 1: picking up on her activation, and now I'm going to
Speaker 1: get activated, and now we're going to fight.
Speaker 2: And that was the dance of all my other past
Speaker 2: where it's just you know, in all of those bad areas.
Speaker 2: But when someone is going through like anxiously attached, something's
Speaker 2: coming up for them. What are some tips to regulate
Speaker 2: and not go left or right?
Speaker 3: What? Another beautiful question.
Speaker 1: So the missing developmental link for people who have anxious
Speaker 1: attachment is they don't have the ability to self regulate.
Speaker 3: So when they will be yeah, yeah, I know, I
Speaker 3: like I struggle.
Speaker 1: I actually struggle a lot with sleep like self downregulating right, Like,
Speaker 1: So when we're born, we are not born with a
Speaker 1: fully developed parasympathetic nervous system. So if our primary caregiver
Speaker 1: was not in their parasympathetic nervous system, and for those
Speaker 1: who are listening, that's like the system that like helso
Speaker 1: soothe and calm down, rest and digest. So if my
Speaker 1: mom and bless her heart, she wasn't and that was
Speaker 1: not her fault, right, she was going through a lot
Speaker 1: of stress. She wasn't in her parasympathetic enough that I
Speaker 1: didn't develop internal ability to self regulate that well, so
Speaker 1: I need what's called a lot of coregulation. And this
Speaker 1: is where I think a lot of you know, shame
Speaker 1: or misunderstanding comes up because anxiously attached people sometimes can't
Speaker 1: calm themselves down literally right, And so this is where
Speaker 1: substance abuse happen. And this is where dependency codependency happens.
Speaker 1: So understanding that I need to call someone who can
Speaker 1: help me hold space for this disregulated part might be
Speaker 1: the only option. Or using a substance. Unfortunately that becomes
Speaker 1: codependency could be turned on the you know a lot
Speaker 1: of people could develop addiction because we can't get ourselves
Speaker 1: to calm down, and that is not our fault. So
Speaker 1: I think just understanding and having some compassion around the
Speaker 1: developmental pieces of how you might have survived and adapted
Speaker 1: and what you truly need now is like half the
Speaker 1: battle of taking out any shame about what comes up
Speaker 1: for you. I know I can sometimes calm myself down,
Speaker 1: and if I can't, I've got a few people that
Speaker 1: will hold space for me and let me be anxious
Speaker 1: and and not fixed me, but like, you know, be
Speaker 1: there for me if I'm really justsregulated and that that's
Speaker 1: just something I know I need as someone who struggles
Speaker 1: with a little bit more anxiety, and there's no shame
Speaker 1: in that. I mean, I'd like to get to a
Speaker 1: point where I'm like, I internalize all those people and
Speaker 1: I need them less and less, because that's actually what
Speaker 1: a secure child does, is it takes in that parasympathetic
Speaker 1: and the essence of someone who's calm, and then we
Speaker 1: have that inside our system. But sometimes if we didn't
Speaker 1: get that as an adult, that's when we have to
Speaker 1: form relationships with therapists and coaches and really secure people
Speaker 1: to start to understand that their nervous system is there
Speaker 1: for us, and then we internalize that sense of safety
Speaker 1: eventually as an adult, so we're kind of changing neuroplasticity
Speaker 1: at that point.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I get it.
Speaker 2: Well, I feel like we're all just we all have
Speaker 2: our staff right, and we're all we're all trying to
Speaker 2: figure it out. And it's you know, it doesn't help
Speaker 2: with things that we've either a gone through in childhood
Speaker 2: or relationships or just everyday you know life. It's it
Speaker 2: can be complicated, it can be hard. But you know,
Speaker 2: I love the fact that you have this book and
Speaker 2: you know people can can you know, you can always
Speaker 2: work on yourself, right, Like That's where it's like, I
Speaker 2: still go to therapy even though I have a very secure,
Speaker 2: I feel safe relationship all the things, and I feel
Speaker 2: happy inside, you know, I feel good like I love him.
Speaker 2: But I also know that I would be okay either way.
Speaker 2: And I think that was a good place to finally
Speaker 2: get too, because I didn't think I could ever be
Speaker 2: okay without someone in my life. And that's what I
Speaker 2: you know, your book is, you know, becoming more secure
Speaker 2: in life and love. And I think, you know, even
Speaker 2: just loving yourself is the key piece to healing, you know,
Speaker 2: all that anxious part of you.
Speaker 1: You know absolutely, and I don't think we learn how
Speaker 1: to love ourselves until we internalize people who love us.
Speaker 1: So like there's a paradox to that too, but yeah,
Speaker 1: like we have to feel a spelt sense of love
Speaker 1: in order to understand how to get that to ourselves.
Speaker 1: What this book tries to do is really help the
Speaker 1: reader form some compassion and so to understand the developmental
Speaker 1: pieces of how their nervous system works, how they show
Speaker 1: up in relationships, how they can begin to heal what
Speaker 1: they need to heal, because we need healing relationships to heal.
Speaker 1: And your example of your fiance and how he's providing
Speaker 1: a new, disconfirming belief for you, like you're re experiencing
Speaker 1: a new sense of safety through someone who has a
Speaker 1: safer way of kind of navigating the world.
Speaker 3: And you're still doing therapy, which as a therapist.
Speaker 1: I will fully admit that I am constantly doing my
Speaker 1: own work and it just keeps coming up, and it's
Speaker 1: just it's really great that you're being vulnerable and sharing that,
Speaker 1: and I think I share a lot of my own
Speaker 1: personal stuff as a professional and as a human who
Speaker 1: has suffered in the same way that you have in
Speaker 1: this book and tried to provide those tools and just
Speaker 1: the general insight and compassion for the reader.
Speaker 2: Well, Jessica, I'm adding it to Kart, so thank you
Speaker 2: so much. Are coming on and everyone get her book.
Speaker 2: Anxiously attached becoming more secure in life and love. Thank
Speaker 2: you Jessica for coming on.
Speaker 3: Thank you so much. Appreciate you. I appreciate it too.
Speaker 2: All right, thanks friend, Bye, all right, bye bye