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Speaker 1: Wind Down with Janet Kramer and I'm Heart Radio Podcast.

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Speaker 2: All Right, Today's Thursday Therapy. We've got Jessica Bomb coming in.

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Speaker 2: She's got a new book called Anxiously Attached Becoming More

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Speaker 2: Secure in Life and Love. Let's get her on. Well, Jessica,

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Speaker 2: I'm really excited to have you on today's Thursday Therapy

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Speaker 2: episode of wind Down. Your book is well. First of all,

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Speaker 2: I think it's such an interesting topic because I recently

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Speaker 2: said this to my dad, because you know, I've done

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Speaker 2: therapy forever and one of the things that I learned

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Speaker 2: about myself is I'm extremely or I was. I'm a

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Speaker 2: recovering anxiously attached person. So I that was how because

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Speaker 2: I just never felt that love or the you know,

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Speaker 2: as a child, I always kind of I craved the love,

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Speaker 2: so I would cling on to people, which then you know,

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Speaker 2: most and most of the time the people that I'm

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Speaker 2: clinging on to were avoidant, so which then made me

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Speaker 2: more anxiously attached. So do you see that as being

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Speaker 2: how people kind of grow into this anxiously attached just

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Speaker 2: from their childhood.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Absolutely, And I talk about this a lot in

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Speaker 3: my book.

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Speaker 1: But really anxious attachment and attachment in general starts so

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Speaker 1: early on, and anxious attachment starts in our nervous system,

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Speaker 1: So we didn't get a lot of lending of the

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Speaker 1: parasympathetic nervous system from our primary caregiver to learn a

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Speaker 1: lot of self regulation. So we need a lot of

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Speaker 1: coregulation and we tend to depend on other people to

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Speaker 1: help us feel safe. There are other hallmarks that happen

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Speaker 1: when we're younger, and one of them is inconsistency. So

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Speaker 1: even if we form a connection, we have a somatic

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Speaker 1: feeling in our body that the connection could drop, and

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Speaker 1: some people equate this to abandonment issues or quote unquoteqote

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Speaker 1: dependent traits. Those all stem from really early wiring that

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Speaker 1: we might not even be conscious of. And by the way,

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Speaker 1: our parents are not guilty, like they're doing the best

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Speaker 1: can in their nervous system responses. But all of this

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Speaker 1: is wired way before real really we really even know.

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Speaker 1: And so we take those early adaptive patterns and we

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Speaker 1: reenact them in our romantic relationships, and so that's where

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Speaker 1: it starts to become like mind blowing.

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Speaker 3: It's like why am I acting this way? Why am

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Speaker 3: I clinging?

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Speaker 1: Well? Part of you remembers inconsistency. A part of you

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Speaker 1: has some abandonment in there. A part of you is

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Speaker 1: scared of disconnection, as you should be, and a part

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Speaker 1: of you is so fearful that when that gets activated

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Speaker 1: or awakened in you, you reenact what a baby would do,

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Speaker 1: which is to reach out and maybe get a little

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Speaker 1: bit clingy, and you know, and then we pick people

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Speaker 1: who are overwhelmed by that and push us away, and

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Speaker 1: then we're stuck in this miserable anxious avoidant dance, which

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Speaker 1: I talk about in detail in the book.

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Speaker 2: So for those that are listening that don't know, you

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Speaker 2: know what anxious attachment is. I mean, what would you say?

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Speaker 2: How could someone go, Okay, here's the five second quiz

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Speaker 2: that would go, all right, I'm anxiously attached. Because it

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Speaker 2: says here that forty five forty seven million Americans identify

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Speaker 2: as having an anxious anxious attachment style. Whether that being

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Speaker 2: what anxiously attached avoidant. I don't know what the other

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Speaker 2: ones are. I just know the two because I've either

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Speaker 2: been one or been with the other one, right, right, right, So.

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Speaker 1: There's four different there's four different styles. There's secure, there's anxious,

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Speaker 1: there's avoidant there. Yeah, secure makes up a good portion

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Speaker 1: of the population. The forty seven million is talking about

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Speaker 1: just anxious, and then there's insecure. There's the other insecure

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Speaker 1: is avoidant, and then there's fearful, and those are like

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Speaker 1: kind of the regular names.

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Speaker 3: So i'll, you know, i'll.

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Speaker 1: Avoidant is very different than anxious, and so anxious people,

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Speaker 1: like I said, the hallmark really knowing, are more of

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Speaker 1: the quota pendent traits.

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Speaker 3: So they can leave their body.

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Speaker 1: And sense what their partner is feeling, and they can

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Speaker 1: be people pleasing and self abandoned in order to stay

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Speaker 1: in connection, because connection is our biological imperative when we're

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Speaker 1: really small, if we learn to monitor our parents' needs

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Speaker 1: or understand the temperature checking of the room, we take

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Speaker 1: those adaptive strategies and we bring them into our adult relationships.

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Speaker 1: So that inconsistency or feeling like the shoe is going

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Speaker 1: to drop is a hallmark of anxious attachment.

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Speaker 3: And I guess the biggest thing I want to drive.

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Speaker 1: Home is these really early ways in which our nervous

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Speaker 1: system tries to stay in connection and adapts it are

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Speaker 1: the same ways we end up staying in connection and

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Speaker 1: adapting when we get adult, we don't change because we

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Speaker 1: are an adult. We have conscious awareness that we're an

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Speaker 1: adult and we're in a relation. We have parts of

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Speaker 1: ourselves that are still responding to fear in ways that

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Speaker 1: we learned when we were small.

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Speaker 2: What age do you think that starts or that you

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Speaker 2: remember that attachment in.

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Speaker 3: Womb we have cellular memory.

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Speaker 1: In womb, we internalize like we have cellular memory and womb,

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Speaker 1: and we have something called implicit memory or sensational memory

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Speaker 1: from zero to about four. So when you're in a relationship,

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Speaker 1: in your gut drops, or you have really strong sensations,

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Speaker 1: or you feel a big panic, some of that is memory.

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Speaker 3: That is actually memory.

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Speaker 1: It's not the memory you think about explicitly, like you

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Speaker 1: remember going to Disneyland. Sensational experiences are how we store

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Speaker 1: memory before that part of our brain develops. So when

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Speaker 1: your boyfriend doesn't contact you back, or when you see

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Speaker 1: someone really checked out, or when someone's on their phone

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Speaker 1: and they're not paying attention to you and your whole

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Speaker 1: body lights up, that is your memory system saying connection

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Speaker 1: is gone.

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Speaker 3: This is really scary.

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Speaker 1: I'm shifting out of a sense of safety into a

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Speaker 1: more activated place.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, It's fascinating to me the whole thing, because I

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Speaker 2: mean I definitely have always been anxiously attached up until

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Speaker 2: about little after my divorce. I dated someone too afterwards,

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Speaker 2: and it was just that same thing falling into the

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Speaker 2: you know, into someone who was showing the patterns of

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Speaker 2: you know, saying their present but then doing X, Y

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Speaker 2: and Z things that weren't lining up. That triggered that

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Speaker 2: anxious feeling that I had in my last marriage where

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Speaker 2: I was like, can't trust it, not safe and then

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Speaker 2: I just cling onto to not lose, you know, and

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Speaker 2: to feel secure and happy in all the things. But

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Speaker 2: it was again such a disservice to myself because I'm like,

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Speaker 2: this is you know, I'm clinging onto something in someone

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Speaker 2: that's not healthy for me, and I'm not healthy. So

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Speaker 2: it was like the too healthy you know, unhealthy people

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Speaker 2: together and like that to me is is interesting because

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Speaker 2: a lot of people will reach out and go, okay,

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Speaker 2: I'm with this person and he's cheated again, or what

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Speaker 2: should I do? And I'm like, you know, of course,

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Speaker 2: my whole being is like now knowing where my road

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Speaker 2: was was like leave, Like what do you do? But

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Speaker 2: I can't say that right, So I'm like, you have

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Speaker 2: to make decision for yourself. You'll know when enough is enough.

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Speaker 2: But would you say those people are then anxiously attached

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Speaker 2: because of the wounding in a relationship.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, your questions are so simple but yet very very deep.

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Speaker 1: And we have an anticipated somatic experience of what a

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Speaker 1: relationship and connection might feel like, and we might gravitate

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Speaker 1: towards people who feel familiar and reenact some trauma in

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Speaker 1: our relationship, and circular dances or cycles might happen. And

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Speaker 1: because connection is literally our biological imperative, we can be

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Speaker 1: very scared to leave the relationship for so many levels,

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Speaker 1: Like consciously we're scared because being alone is hard, but

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Speaker 1: subconsciously there could be other things going on that keep

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Speaker 1: us as well in relationship patterns that are really consciously

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Speaker 1: we know are unhealthy for us, but are so hard

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Speaker 1: to leave. And so you know, we are designed to

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Speaker 1: stay in connection even when it's unhealthy. We will forego

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Speaker 1: some things to stay in connection because.

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Speaker 3: That is our survival.

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Speaker 1: The more work we get we do with what lives

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Speaker 1: in our body and our embodied memory and our and

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Speaker 1: our childhood and connecting to the root of these fears

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Speaker 1: and these things the allure of the cycle or the

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Speaker 1: allure of someone who really can't meet our needs lessons,

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Speaker 1: and we start to possibly attract people who are more

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Speaker 1: present and consistent and start to help our nervous system

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Speaker 1: understand what is healthy love, which feels very different from

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Speaker 1: kind of a roller coaster relationship. So you're you're describing

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Speaker 1: maybe what people would talk about as trauma bonding or

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Speaker 1: codependency or twin flame, and it's like, all of these

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Speaker 1: terms are you know, we can judge them, but truly

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Speaker 1: we need to understand that we pick people for a

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Speaker 1: reason and usually reenact a lot of what our belief

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Speaker 1: systems in our body anticipates, and we stay for a

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Speaker 1: lot of reasons, and there shouldn't be a lot of

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Speaker 1: judgment there.

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Speaker 3: I would just hope there's a lot.

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Speaker 1: Of curiosity around, Okay, I'm not getting my needs met

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Speaker 1: in this relationship and it's really hard to leave. Can

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Speaker 1: I get some support around this? And where can I heal?

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Speaker 1: And the more you heal, the more the right decision

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Speaker 1: hopefully comes through for you.

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Speaker 2: I think one of the coolest things that I my

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Speaker 2: transformation after my divorce was realizing, like a the work

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Speaker 2: that I still had I had so much to do

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Speaker 2: still that I had a big part to play, and

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Speaker 2: then if I wanted to attract a healthy relationship that

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Speaker 2: I'm like, I had to do even more work, even

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Speaker 2: though I'm like, I've been doing therapy forever, Why am

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Speaker 2: I still having to like go? So it's like but

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Speaker 2: then it was just reworking different things. And then you know,

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Speaker 2: when I was I was feeling more healthy and getting

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Speaker 2: out there, and I took a little time off, just

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Speaker 2: a little, but I felt that I was choosing different

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Speaker 2: because I also felt healthier. But I remember when I

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Speaker 2: met my fiance, I was like, all right, this just

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Speaker 2: feels so different. And I remember telling my therapist too,

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Speaker 2: I said, for the first time, I feel safe, and

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Speaker 2: that feels weird to me. It almost was like I

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Speaker 2: felt unsafe, but I wouldn't feel unsafe. I felt safe,

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Speaker 2: but so safe that it felt I didn't know if

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Speaker 2: I could trust it because I've never felt that before.

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Speaker 2: And so I had to work through that, going okay,

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Speaker 2: what is what is a man showing up doing what

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Speaker 2: he says like actually does like this is this is amazing?

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Speaker 2: And then it's me going okay, I have to show

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Speaker 2: up as my healthy self and not be anxiously attached,

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Speaker 2: which I wasn't. It was just but it was just

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Speaker 2: it was wild to go, Okay, now there's two healthy

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Speaker 2: people that are doing you know, that have done a

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Speaker 2: million wrong things in the past, that are doing the

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Speaker 2: right things now. But to trust what it was then,

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Speaker 2: like I've always had it up and down relationship and

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Speaker 2: we've been together for a little over a year and

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Speaker 2: we've never had a fight, Like, but past relationships it'd

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Speaker 2: be I mean again, when's the next show gonna drop

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Speaker 2: explosive fights? Like? And I'm like, this just feels different

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Speaker 2: and it feels almost foreign to me. And I'm like,

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Speaker 2: that's that was a hard thing to process when I

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Speaker 2: first met him, because I'm like, wait, we haven't fought yet.

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Speaker 2: This is weird, you know, like this feels in a

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Speaker 2: weird way way unsafe. I'm so confused how that's even possible.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I mean, thank you for being so vulnerable.

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Speaker 1: I can totally relate to that.

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Speaker 3: One. Fighting is actually healthy. Conflict is healthy. So I

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Speaker 3: hear you.

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Speaker 2: We have conflicts, but we don't have like when I

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Speaker 2: say fights to me, fights are like explosive, you know,

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Speaker 2: slam doors nasty words like that was the stuff that

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Speaker 2: I've that I've been used to, and but we definitely

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Speaker 2: have like I don't agree with you. We get a

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Speaker 2: little snippy, but not ever like a full blown thing, right.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, no, And I hear you, yeah, I conflict is

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Speaker 1: healthy rupture and repair, which we can get into. But

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Speaker 1: what I hear you saying, which is really awesome and

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Speaker 1: so awesome for the listeners to hear, is that you

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Speaker 1: took some time to yourself. You probably worked on some

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Speaker 1: relationships in your life, building some security outside of romance,

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Speaker 1: and then when someone came in that wasn't high conflict,

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Speaker 1: it felt different in your nervous system, and it took

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Speaker 1: your time to understand that this is actually a new

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Speaker 1: way to love, right right, and so, and old stuff

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Speaker 1: can still come up, and it probably will because that's

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Speaker 1: what your system. But because he was consistent and you

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Speaker 1: were consistent and it was new, you're able to find

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Speaker 1: a new sense of safety in that in that relationship.

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Speaker 1: And that's amazing and that's what every anxious person strives

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Speaker 1: to hear, that that that possibility is there. And I

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Speaker 1: I can relate to what you're sharing in terms of

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Speaker 1: taking some time off and building some safety outside of romance,

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Speaker 1: and then relearning what romance might feel like in your

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Speaker 1: nervous system and understanding that familiar is different than safe,

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Speaker 1: and so what might feel safe actually might feel scary

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Speaker 1: for a lot of people who struggle with vulnerability and

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Speaker 1: true intimacy. Right, And so if we don't do the work,

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Speaker 1: a really safe person might bring up, wow, this is

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Speaker 1: real connection here versus like you know, one of those

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Speaker 1: fairy tale or fantasy bonds that feel like more like escape,

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Speaker 1: like escaping from our pain.

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Speaker 2: Right, No, that makes sense. And there's a thing you said,

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Speaker 2: you created this self full method. What is that?

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Speaker 3: Yeah?

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Speaker 1: So I talk about in the book, I talk about

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Speaker 1: different nervous system states, and I talk about people who

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Speaker 1: are anxiously attached being more selfless. So we self abandon

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Speaker 1: and we temperature check people, please, we can leave our body.

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Speaker 1: We are like we know, I know what my dog

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Speaker 1: is thinking right now, right, Like, we're very like in

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Speaker 1: touch with our environment and we've had to.

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Speaker 3: Be to survive.

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Speaker 1: And that's a state, right, And then there's another state,

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Speaker 1: and we attract people who tend to go to this state, right,

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Speaker 1: this is the avoidant where they're very self focused and

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Speaker 1: they can shut down and not be attuned to the

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Speaker 1: needs of others.

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Speaker 3: So like we have these states, and both.

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Speaker 1: The selfless and selfish states are born of sympathetic activation.

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Speaker 1: So both those states of I'm going to overtake care

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Speaker 1: of you and I'm going to people please you is

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Speaker 1: out of fear, right, and I'm going to only focus

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Speaker 1: on myself and I'm just going to stay focused on

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Speaker 1: myself as actually born of fear too. And then there's

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Speaker 1: a middle state I call self full state, and it's

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Speaker 1: really a ventral state of connection. And we are actually

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Speaker 1: oscillating through these states all day long. It's not like

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Speaker 1: we stay in one. We might gravitate towards one when

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Speaker 1: we're scared, but self full is like when we're feeling

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Speaker 1: so much safety in our relationship that there is a

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Speaker 1: fluid sense of exchange. We can ask for our needs,

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Speaker 1: we can speak up, we have boundaries, we can get close,

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Speaker 1: we can move away. Basically we feel safe and so

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Speaker 1: different things take us out of safety. I can honestly

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Speaker 1: say that, and if you're listening, like I can, I

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Speaker 1: can be selfless at one point in my day, and

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Speaker 1: I can feel selfish and in my relationships if there's

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Speaker 1: enough safety being built, we hopefully are in the self

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Speaker 1: ful state more and more that window of tolerance expanse.

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Speaker 3: Does that make sense? Yeah?

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Speaker 2: Are you also saying too when you when I hear

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Speaker 2: you say that is on the flip side of where

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Speaker 2: the attachment stuff is. Maybe one day you can be

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Speaker 2: avoidant one. Is that the same kind? Does that work

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Speaker 2: for the same thing? Where like sometimes you can be

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Speaker 2: the avoidant one or the anxious one or is it

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Speaker 2: is that what your're a meaning is Yes?

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Speaker 1: And like this and not to get too deep into

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Speaker 1: attachment theory, but like our attachment style can fit into

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Speaker 1: a category and it changes, and we have avoidant protectors

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Speaker 1: and we like I will personally move and I don't

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Speaker 1: know so much anymore. Actually I don't think I do

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Speaker 1: this anymore. But I typically would move into the maybe

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Speaker 1: the people pleasing state if I'm scared, But the more

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Speaker 1: work that I do in maybe not so much, I

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Speaker 1: might use my voice more and if I'm really triggered,

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Speaker 1: I might move to the other pendulum of like selfish state.

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Speaker 3: Right, So, like it's.

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Speaker 1: Kind of knowing where your nervous system kind of gravitates

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Speaker 1: to and with whom, and it very much. I don't

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Speaker 1: know that it relates directly to attachment theory, but almost

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Speaker 1: like the protectors or the way we cope with fear

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Speaker 1: in our relationships and our nervous system.

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Speaker 2: These states, and as long as it's the pendulum goes

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Speaker 2: from let's just say avoidant to secure avoidance, so it's

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Speaker 2: at least but not between the other not great ones

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Speaker 2: like anxious avoidant anxious avoidant, where at least it's like

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Speaker 2: anxious secure. A secure is that like the kind of

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Speaker 2: the hope that you're at least you have a piece

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Speaker 2: of the secure in you.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, obviously that's the hope.

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Speaker 1: Like right now I'm not activated, So right now I

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Speaker 1: feel self full, like I can speak up with you.

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Speaker 1: I feel comfortable sharing my voice, like you know, I'm

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Speaker 1: not over people pleasing, so like you kind of know

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Speaker 1: when that stuff comes up. The problem with so, if

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Speaker 1: it is a pendulum or a spectrum, is people on

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Speaker 1: the self selfless state, so they anxiously attached or more codependent,

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Speaker 1: and the people on the selfish which you might look

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Speaker 1: at is narcissism or extreme avoidance. Right, both those states

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Speaker 1: are born in fear. So the problem with those states

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Speaker 1: is they're never getting into connection. So if we're in

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Speaker 1: a people pleasing state constantly, or if we're in a

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Speaker 1: state of self like we're shut down and only focused

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Speaker 1: on ourselves. It's not that there's anything wrong with those states.

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Speaker 1: Inherently there are states of protection, but they're not getting

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Speaker 1: into connection. So we can't get into connection when we're

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Speaker 1: in sympathetic activation like when you're in fight flight or

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Speaker 1: people pleasing or all of this, we're not calming our

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Speaker 1: nervous system down enough to feel safe enough to form

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Speaker 1: into missing connections. So those states tend to put people

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Speaker 1: to people into fear so much that they're missing connection

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Speaker 1: in the relationship.

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Speaker 2: Does that make sense that that makes sense? Yeah, for sure.

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Speaker 2: I also know that I can. It doesn't happen a lot,

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Speaker 2: but I can get so out of body sometimes because

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Speaker 2: of past triggers that I can't even have a conversation

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Speaker 2: until I'm out of that mode because nothing that is

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Speaker 2: said to me, I will rationalize in a like an

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Speaker 2: in a in my right brain at all, I'll just

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Speaker 2: I'll react, react, react, react, And it's not so I'm

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Speaker 2: like and it's you know, my fancy sees that now

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Speaker 2: he's just like you know, I love you, and I'm

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Speaker 2: here when you're you know, when you're ready to to talk.

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Speaker 2: But I'm like sometimes I'm just like I need a

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Speaker 2: minute because I'm like, I can just be so activated

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Speaker 2: with passings that are not have nothing to do with

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Speaker 2: the actual thing that's happening. Is just is a trigger

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Speaker 2: from something that came up in a conversation that has

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Speaker 2: nothing to do with him.

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Speaker 3: You know, yeah, absolutely, I understand that.

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Speaker 1: And you know, for the listeners, it's like we can

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Speaker 1: get awakened at any moment, and I like to say

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Speaker 1: it awakened instead of triggered, because something old was.

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Speaker 3: Awakened in you. And when you're like, I'm not in

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Speaker 3: the right brain, you're literally not in the part of

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Speaker 3: your brain like has empathy and can connect because you

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Speaker 3: are activated in a way that your brain is running

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Speaker 3: for life or shutting like whatever it's doing, it's in

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Speaker 3: a survival stance, and so then your thoughts are survival

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Speaker 3: or defensive or accusatory because your system is activated. And

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Speaker 3: then it's very hard to get back into the sense

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Speaker 3: of we or calmness. And it's great that your fiance

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Speaker 3: is able to say, Okay, like I'm here, I'm here

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Speaker 3: for you, And so how you get to a place

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Speaker 3: of de escalating yourself and you get back to a

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Speaker 3: place of connection and you're able to understand, like, I

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Speaker 3: can't connect in that state, and so he's not provoking

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Speaker 3: you in that state because he's not activated when you're

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Speaker 3: in that state. So he's able to give you that

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Speaker 3: space to give.

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Speaker 1: Yourself where another person might say, oh my god, she's

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Speaker 1: in this activated state. Now my nervous system is subconsciously

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Speaker 1: picking up on her activation, and now I'm going to

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Speaker 1: get activated, and now we're going to fight.

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Speaker 2: And that was the dance of all my other past

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Speaker 2: where it's just you know, in all of those bad areas.

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Speaker 2: But when someone is going through like anxiously attached, something's

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Speaker 2: coming up for them. What are some tips to regulate

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Speaker 2: and not go left or right?

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Speaker 3: What? Another beautiful question.

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Speaker 1: So the missing developmental link for people who have anxious

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Speaker 1: attachment is they don't have the ability to self regulate.

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Speaker 3: So when they will be yeah, yeah, I know, I

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Speaker 3: like I struggle.

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Speaker 1: I actually struggle a lot with sleep like self downregulating right, Like,

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Speaker 1: So when we're born, we are not born with a

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Speaker 1: fully developed parasympathetic nervous system. So if our primary caregiver

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Speaker 1: was not in their parasympathetic nervous system, and for those

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Speaker 1: who are listening, that's like the system that like helso

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Speaker 1: soothe and calm down, rest and digest. So if my

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00:21:28,320 --> 00:21:30,679
Speaker 1: mom and bless her heart, she wasn't and that was

401
00:21:30,720 --> 00:21:32,560
Speaker 1: not her fault, right, she was going through a lot

402
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Speaker 1: of stress. She wasn't in her parasympathetic enough that I

403
00:21:36,720 --> 00:21:42,280
Speaker 1: didn't develop internal ability to self regulate that well, so

404
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Speaker 1: I need what's called a lot of coregulation. And this

405
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Speaker 1: is where I think a lot of you know, shame

406
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Speaker 1: or misunderstanding comes up because anxiously attached people sometimes can't

407
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Speaker 1: calm themselves down literally right, And so this is where

408
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Speaker 1: substance abuse happen. And this is where dependency codependency happens.

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Speaker 1: So understanding that I need to call someone who can

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Speaker 1: help me hold space for this disregulated part might be

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Speaker 1: the only option. Or using a substance. Unfortunately that becomes

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Speaker 1: codependency could be turned on the you know a lot

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Speaker 1: of people could develop addiction because we can't get ourselves

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Speaker 1: to calm down, and that is not our fault. So

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Speaker 1: I think just understanding and having some compassion around the

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Speaker 1: developmental pieces of how you might have survived and adapted

417
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Speaker 1: and what you truly need now is like half the

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Speaker 1: battle of taking out any shame about what comes up

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Speaker 1: for you. I know I can sometimes calm myself down,

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Speaker 1: and if I can't, I've got a few people that

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Speaker 1: will hold space for me and let me be anxious

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Speaker 1: and and not fixed me, but like, you know, be

423
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Speaker 1: there for me if I'm really justsregulated and that that's

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Speaker 1: just something I know I need as someone who struggles

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Speaker 1: with a little bit more anxiety, and there's no shame

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Speaker 1: in that. I mean, I'd like to get to a

427
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Speaker 1: point where I'm like, I internalize all those people and

428
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Speaker 1: I need them less and less, because that's actually what

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Speaker 1: a secure child does, is it takes in that parasympathetic

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Speaker 1: and the essence of someone who's calm, and then we

431
00:23:15,520 --> 00:23:18,600
Speaker 1: have that inside our system. But sometimes if we didn't

432
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Speaker 1: get that as an adult, that's when we have to

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Speaker 1: form relationships with therapists and coaches and really secure people

434
00:23:25,160 --> 00:23:27,920
Speaker 1: to start to understand that their nervous system is there

435
00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:30,920
Speaker 1: for us, and then we internalize that sense of safety

436
00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:35,040
Speaker 1: eventually as an adult, so we're kind of changing neuroplasticity

437
00:23:35,080 --> 00:23:35,639
Speaker 1: at that point.

438
00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:39,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I get it.

439
00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:41,840
Speaker 2: Well, I feel like we're all just we all have

440
00:23:41,920 --> 00:23:43,520
Speaker 2: our staff right, and we're all we're all trying to

441
00:23:43,520 --> 00:23:46,680
Speaker 2: figure it out. And it's you know, it doesn't help

442
00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:49,080
Speaker 2: with things that we've either a gone through in childhood

443
00:23:49,160 --> 00:23:53,399
Speaker 2: or relationships or just everyday you know life. It's it

444
00:23:53,440 --> 00:23:55,879
Speaker 2: can be complicated, it can be hard. But you know,

445
00:23:56,040 --> 00:23:58,320
Speaker 2: I love the fact that you have this book and

446
00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:02,080
Speaker 2: you know people can can you know, you can always

447
00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:04,240
Speaker 2: work on yourself, right, Like That's where it's like, I

448
00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:06,680
Speaker 2: still go to therapy even though I have a very secure,

449
00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:10,359
Speaker 2: I feel safe relationship all the things, and I feel

450
00:24:10,359 --> 00:24:13,400
Speaker 2: happy inside, you know, I feel good like I love him.

451
00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:15,600
Speaker 2: But I also know that I would be okay either way.

452
00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:18,280
Speaker 2: And I think that was a good place to finally

453
00:24:18,280 --> 00:24:20,439
Speaker 2: get too, because I didn't think I could ever be

454
00:24:20,520 --> 00:24:23,560
Speaker 2: okay without someone in my life. And that's what I

455
00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:26,080
Speaker 2: you know, your book is, you know, becoming more secure

456
00:24:26,119 --> 00:24:28,720
Speaker 2: in life and love. And I think, you know, even

457
00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:33,199
Speaker 2: just loving yourself is the key piece to healing, you know,

458
00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:35,879
Speaker 2: all that anxious part of you.

459
00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:39,480
Speaker 1: You know absolutely, and I don't think we learn how

460
00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:43,240
Speaker 1: to love ourselves until we internalize people who love us.

461
00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:46,280
Speaker 1: So like there's a paradox to that too, but yeah,

462
00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:49,960
Speaker 1: like we have to feel a spelt sense of love

463
00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:53,600
Speaker 1: in order to understand how to get that to ourselves.

464
00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:56,520
Speaker 1: What this book tries to do is really help the

465
00:24:56,600 --> 00:25:01,680
Speaker 1: reader form some compassion and so to understand the developmental

466
00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:05,200
Speaker 1: pieces of how their nervous system works, how they show

467
00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:09,000
Speaker 1: up in relationships, how they can begin to heal what

468
00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:12,760
Speaker 1: they need to heal, because we need healing relationships to heal.

469
00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:18,480
Speaker 1: And your example of your fiance and how he's providing

470
00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:23,119
Speaker 1: a new, disconfirming belief for you, like you're re experiencing

471
00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:26,960
Speaker 1: a new sense of safety through someone who has a

472
00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:29,800
Speaker 1: safer way of kind of navigating the world.

473
00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:33,440
Speaker 3: And you're still doing therapy, which as a therapist.

474
00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:35,960
Speaker 1: I will fully admit that I am constantly doing my

475
00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:39,000
Speaker 1: own work and it just keeps coming up, and it's

476
00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:42,280
Speaker 1: just it's really great that you're being vulnerable and sharing that,

477
00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:44,040
Speaker 1: and I think I share a lot of my own

478
00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:47,920
Speaker 1: personal stuff as a professional and as a human who

479
00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:49,800
Speaker 1: has suffered in the same way that you have in

480
00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:53,040
Speaker 1: this book and tried to provide those tools and just

481
00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:55,520
Speaker 1: the general insight and compassion for the reader.

482
00:25:56,240 --> 00:25:58,879
Speaker 2: Well, Jessica, I'm adding it to Kart, so thank you

483
00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:03,000
Speaker 2: so much. Are coming on and everyone get her book.

484
00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:06,120
Speaker 2: Anxiously attached becoming more secure in life and love. Thank

485
00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:07,240
Speaker 2: you Jessica for coming on.

486
00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:11,080
Speaker 3: Thank you so much. Appreciate you. I appreciate it too.

487
00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:14,399
Speaker 2: All right, thanks friend, Bye, all right, bye bye