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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you should know, a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's

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Speaker 2: shock and it's just us because we don't know where

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Speaker 2: Jerry is. But that's okay, because this is stuff you

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Speaker 2: should do.

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Speaker 1: Oh well, Jerry may have engaged in pseudoside because she's

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Speaker 1: so tired of working with us. Yeah, then she didn't

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Speaker 1: want to tell us. Yeah, that's one reason somebody might

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Speaker 1: want to get out of their life or you know,

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Speaker 1: not for real. But that's what pseudoside is. It's spaking

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Speaker 1: your own death.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and that definitely does sound like something Jerry would do.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Like she couldn't bring herself to tell us, so

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Speaker 1: she's like, well maybe I could just disappear.

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Speaker 2: Right, So, yes, pseudoside I'd never known that before. But

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Speaker 2: pseudo side is a different term for faking your own death,

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Speaker 2: like pseudo like fake inside death.

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Speaker 1: That's right.

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Speaker 2: So I don't think side means death. I think it's

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Speaker 2: a little worse than that, but you get the point. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: And I don't remember what brought this up. I just

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Speaker 2: had this idea to do this one. I don't remember

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Speaker 2: what it was. But it turns out that there's there's like,

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Speaker 2: this is a thing. It's not just something you see

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Speaker 2: in the movies. Like a surprising amount I don't want

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Speaker 2: to say a lot, but a surprising amount of people

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Speaker 2: have tried this. Yeah, and it's probable that even more

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Speaker 2: people have tried it than we think, because the only

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Speaker 2: ones that we know about are the ones who got caught.

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Speaker 2: Presumably there's plenty of people out there who tried this

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Speaker 2: and were was successful.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, or tried it and failed but didn't get caught.

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Speaker 2: Okay, sure, Yeah, that's that's a good point too. I

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Speaker 2: hadn't thought about that one.

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Speaker 1: As you would say there are three trunches.

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Speaker 2: That's right. I wouldn't say that because I love myself.

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Speaker 1: No, but you're the trench master.

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Speaker 2: Oh that's so like twenty ten. You rather forgot about that.

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Speaker 2: Can you believe that was fifteen years ago?

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Speaker 1: Hey, tronches were hot.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, they were all raged, So why would anybody do this? Chuck?

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Speaker 2: I think we should start with that.

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Speaker 1: Well, I mean one of them, I listed get out

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Speaker 1: of a personal relationship. I mean I was kind of

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Speaker 1: joking about Jerry, but you know, it would be probably

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Speaker 1: more like I want to leave my fam, you know,

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Speaker 1: if it's a movie at least, although this happens real life.

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Speaker 1: I want to leave my family they're so boring, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and go set up another life with this new family

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Speaker 1: that's going to solve all my problems. It seems like

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Speaker 1: the most common is probably a financial thing. You're either

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Speaker 1: have some huge debt you're trying to get out of,

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Speaker 1: or you're trying to commit insurance fraud to get a

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Speaker 1: big payout or something, or you've embezzled from your company

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Speaker 1: or something like that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Apparently, so Olivia helped us out with this, and

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Speaker 2: she found that there seems to have been an increase

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Speaker 2: in pseudocides or people getting caught trying their hand at pseudicide,

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Speaker 2: after the two thousand and eight financial crisis.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, speaking of tronchias.

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Speaker 2: So another big one too is if you are about

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Speaker 2: to be incarcerated for a very long time and I

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Speaker 2: happen to have let you out on bail, there's a

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Speaker 2: higher likelihood that you're going to try this than, say,

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Speaker 2: you know, when you're gainfully employed and you're sitting around

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Speaker 2: reading the newspaper fairly content.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure, very sadly. Of course, one of the

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Speaker 1: reasons is, like the sleeping with the enemy method, which

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Speaker 1: is you're trying to escape some sort of abusive situation

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Speaker 1: in your home, whether it's a spouse or a family

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Speaker 1: member or something like that.

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Speaker 2: Right, or you want to frame your wife like in

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Speaker 2: the movie Double Jeopardy with Ashley Judd.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, boy, we're is this two thousand and seven?

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Speaker 2: You know what? This really feels like earlier stuff you

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Speaker 2: should know type episode. So let's do it. Let's do it.

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Speaker 2: Try unches everywhere Ashley Judd appearances. I will figure it

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Speaker 2: out as we go along.

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Speaker 1: Okay, Yeah, our boss is just coming to us and

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Speaker 1: saying that, like, there's people that want to put commercials

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Speaker 1: on our podcasts, and we're saying, no, why would we

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Speaker 1: ever do that?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And then the other people are saying, what's a

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Speaker 2: podcast exactly? So let's see what else. Oh, I think

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Speaker 2: this one's probably it's pretty niche. But if you're a

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Speaker 2: lottery winner and you have a bunch of family you

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Speaker 2: don't care about sure that are coming out of the woodwork,

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Speaker 2: you might try this as well.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's true. And here's the thing. If you have

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Speaker 1: that kind of dough, I mean, making yourself disappear and

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Speaker 1: faking your own death is not cheap, as we'll see,

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Speaker 1: So it is definitely more common for people of great

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Speaker 1: means to try this kind of thing. First of all,

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Speaker 1: they may have the money to pull it off, because

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Speaker 1: it can be expensive to like really do it right

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Speaker 1: these days. Or if you're the kind of person who

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Speaker 1: you know, defrauded someone or a company of millions and

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Speaker 1: millions of dollars, you know, that puts you in a

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Speaker 1: certain league. I've never had that opportunity to do.

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Speaker 2: Something like that, for instance, precisely. So, yeah, it's just

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Speaker 2: kind of a selection bias almost, you know, yeah, totally.

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Speaker 2: Men also are more likely to try this or at

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Speaker 2: the very least or are more likely to get caught. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: and I could see that being the case. Right, We're

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Speaker 2: in just being yeah, more likely to do it. And

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Speaker 2: also again probably because the selection bias a little bit,

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Speaker 2: finance bros are likelier than others to try this or

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Speaker 2: at least to get caught too.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that makes sense with just the risky sort of

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Speaker 1: you know, maybe they got into that hot water because

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Speaker 1: you know, this deal that just couldn't be resisted or whatever,

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Speaker 1: because it's so much money.

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Speaker 2: Bro Right, it just didn't work out, bro.

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Speaker 1: Here's another interesting thing, is it is more common for

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Speaker 1: people to come to the United States to like collect

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Speaker 1: on an insurance policy, like if you're from another country,

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Speaker 1: and then just go back to your home country.

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Speaker 2: Yes, and you just mentioned insurance for the second or

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Speaker 2: third time. The people who work for insurance companies are

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Speaker 2: well aware of all of these things that we're rattling

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Speaker 2: off and more. Oh yeah, because as we'll see later on,

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Speaker 2: there's a lot of stuff that you could do wrong

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Speaker 2: that insurance investigator is going to pick up on. We'll

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Speaker 2: talk more about that, but that's a big part of

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Speaker 2: this whole thing. It's a big reason people do this

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Speaker 2: insurance fraud, and it's a big reason people get caught

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Speaker 2: insurance investigators.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. And as we'll see, it's way more

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Speaker 1: common for like the insurance company to hire somebody to

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Speaker 1: find you rather than the cops to come after you,

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Speaker 1: because the cops are like, well, you know, surely no

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Speaker 1: skin off my back, that's right, and the insurance company

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Speaker 1: is like, well, they just got millions of dollars from us,

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Speaker 1: so we're gonna We're going to do your job exactly.

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Speaker 2: We should probably give a pretty big shout out at

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Speaker 2: the outset here to Elizabeth Greenwood. She's the author. I

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Speaker 2: think her day job as a creative writing professor at Columbia.

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Speaker 2: But she wrote a book which, as far as I

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Speaker 2: can tell, is the most exhaustive look at pseudoside anyone's

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Speaker 2: ever created. Her book was released in twenty sixteen. It's

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Speaker 2: Playing Dead, a Journey through the world of death fraud.

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Speaker 2: And I guess she had a conversation with a friend

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Speaker 2: about how she could get out of her student debt,

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Speaker 2: and somebody said, you should fake your own death. She said,

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Speaker 2: you know, that's a great idea for a book. And

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Speaker 2: here we are, ipso facto talking about it now.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And she actually went through part of the process,

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Speaker 1: just to actually go through it, to see how hard

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Speaker 1: or easy or expensive it was to write about it.

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Speaker 1: She didn't go through with it, but she went as

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Speaker 1: far as finding out where this is. You know, when

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Speaker 1: you talk about something sort of unusual like this, seems

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Speaker 1: like there's always like, oh, well, you need to go

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Speaker 1: to this place because they just got the market cornered

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Speaker 1: on that, whether it's like you know, Swiss bank accounts

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Speaker 1: or offshore accounts, you know, like they have it set

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Speaker 1: up so you can do this kind of stuff, and

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Speaker 1: apparently that place for pseudo side is the Philippines.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, who knew for sure. That's another thing too, If

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Speaker 2: you died in the Philippines, your insurance claim is going

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Speaker 2: to get investigated pretty thoroughly just because of that. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So Elizabeth Greenwood is not the first person to try this,

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Speaker 2: but just based on her experience, she found that you

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Speaker 2: can pretty easily find people who are more than happy

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Speaker 2: to assist you with this for a fee, and a

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Speaker 2: relatively cheap fee, especially considering the type of documentation you get.

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Speaker 2: I think for a couple hundred dollars, you can get

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Speaker 2: an official death certificate from the Filipino government. And that's

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Speaker 2: a big part of why the Philippines is so like

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Speaker 2: the center of all of this, because you're not getting

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Speaker 2: forged documents, you're getting false official documents. Yeah, because you know,

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Speaker 2: somebody's got a friend on the inside and they're taking

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Speaker 2: bribes and like, so you're getting good actual documentation. It's

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Speaker 2: just all based on falsehoods. But that's not it. It

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Speaker 2: doesn't end there, Like, just hold your credit card for

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Speaker 2: another second, because they're gonna double this offer.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, it's sort of like any service. They're like, well,

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Speaker 1: if you just want the birth certificate, you can get

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Speaker 1: that for a couple of hundred bucks. But that's probably

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Speaker 1: not going to be enough these days. Back in the

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Speaker 1: old days, that was probably all you needed it. You

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Speaker 1: should be way easier to get away with this kind

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Speaker 1: of thing.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, the driver's licenses didn't even have pictures of them exactly.

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Speaker 2: It's nuts.

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Speaker 1: But if you really want to, you know, go through

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Speaker 1: with like the second tier service, you can get like

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Speaker 1: a kit that may have a new identity for you,

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Speaker 1: kuind of have like a new passport in there, new per

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Speaker 1: certificate maybe something like that. Or if you really want

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Speaker 1: to go with a like the deluxe package, you can

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Speaker 1: spend and you know, tens of thousands of dollars to

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Speaker 1: get somebody like almost like concier service for someone who's like,

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Speaker 1: I can erase your tracks, I can make it like

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Speaker 1: you were never here. I can make sure you don't

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Speaker 1: get caught. I can get people too. We can cook

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Speaker 1: up a story and I can get witnesses to testify

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Speaker 1: that they saw this car wreck and pulled your body

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Speaker 1: out of the wreckage. And you know, we know people

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Speaker 1: that work in morgues and hospitals, and if you want

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Speaker 1: to pay the money, we can really really do this thing, right.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we can get you an actual dead body.

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Speaker 1: If you want a dead body, I can get your

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Speaker 1: dead body by three pm.

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Speaker 2: Right, and that's gonna probably that's gonna sit in for you.

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Speaker 2: Apparently this really kind of drives it home. If there's

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Speaker 2: a kidaver and you're not just missing presumed dead, that's

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Speaker 2: definitely going to help your your pseudo side become successful.

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Speaker 2: Like you said, there's black market morgues that essentially, if

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Speaker 2: you're unidentified or unclaimed in the Philippines, there's a chance

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Speaker 2: somebody's going to hang on to your body and you

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Speaker 2: might be sold to fulfill someone's pseudo side attempt. And

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Speaker 2: it's not just the Philippines either. I saw at least

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Speaker 2: one story here in Georgia, I think Coffee County, God

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Speaker 2: knows where that is. Where this I guess an undertaker

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Speaker 2: at a funeral home had a ton of bodies that

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Speaker 2: he supposedly buried that he was selling for this reason

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Speaker 2: or for other reasons. But also this was one of

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Speaker 2: the things you could buy a body for. And even

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Speaker 2: like a legitimate funeral home has an incentive to just

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Speaker 2: kind of be like, uh, yeah, it's nice to meet you, cousin.

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Speaker 1: Ed.

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Speaker 2: Just give me the money and you can take this body.

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Speaker 1: Right, Okay, now I know where we did this. We

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Speaker 1: did a video about this. Oh yeah, yep, I knew

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Speaker 1: we had done something, but I looked up the podcast

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Speaker 1: and we hadn't. We did something. We did some kind

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Speaker 1: of video on this because it may have just been

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Speaker 1: centered around the Coffee County thing, because as soon as

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Speaker 1: you said Coffee County, I was like, wait, there was

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Speaker 1: a guy there that did this. So yeah, it is

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Speaker 1: two thousand and eight.

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Speaker 2: It is all over again. We need to make this

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Speaker 2: episode twelve minutes long.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, oh great. Here's my question though. The idea is

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Speaker 1: that you get this body and have it cremated and

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Speaker 1: you pass off those human remains or cremains, But how

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Speaker 1: does that work with DNA? Like, why don't you if

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Speaker 1: that's the case, why can't you just get cremanes.

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Speaker 2: I think cremation destroys DNA pretty good.

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Speaker 1: So why don't they just say, like, here's a bag

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Speaker 1: of teeth and ashes.

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Speaker 2: Some people do, Okay, I don't. Yeah, I think so,

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Speaker 2: Elizabeth Greenwood, those Filipino guys, I guess they're trying to

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Speaker 2: upsell her, but she said that some like they offer

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Speaker 2: not just a corpse but a fake funeral. They'll stage

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Speaker 2: a funeral, a real funeral, but there's like the mourners

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Speaker 2: there are paid. There's photographs of you know, people at

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Speaker 2: your funeral that if the insurance company asks for something

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Speaker 2: like that to document it, you've got it. But she's like,

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Speaker 2: this is all very unnecessary, just like what you said.

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Speaker 2: You you just have the cremains, and it's like, well,

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Speaker 2: you know, what are you going to do? This is

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Speaker 2: supposedly the dead person. That makes way more sense. It's

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Speaker 2: way cheaper, it's way less of a hassle. And like

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Speaker 2: I was saying, some legitimate funeral homes, like if you're

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Speaker 2: if the laws in your country say, one of the

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Speaker 2: roles you play is like taking over custody of like

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Speaker 2: unidentified people, like say a homeless person who dies, you're

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Speaker 2: responsible for giving them a respectful burial. You go to

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Speaker 2: one of these places and say, oh, yeah, that's my

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Speaker 2: that's my cousin, and they're they're going to be like here,

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Speaker 2: give me some money, and you know you can handle

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Speaker 2: everything from there.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and again, if I mean if you're trying to

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Speaker 1: commit insurance for all it or something that's going to

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Speaker 1: ramp up investigatory practice, most certainly from the insurance company,

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Speaker 1: maybe the cops, depending on kind of what's going on.

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Speaker 1: And obviously if you're escaping justice stuff like that. But

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Speaker 1: if that's not what you're doing, if you're just trying

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Speaker 1: to get out of your life for some like sad reason,

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Speaker 1: maybe and especially if you go to another country and

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Speaker 1: do this, law enforcement in America is probably not going

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Speaker 1: to do anything.

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Speaker 2: No, they're gonna say god speed because it's not.

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Speaker 1: A crime specifically, and maybe we should take a break,

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Speaker 1: and sounds like a good place to leave it a

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Speaker 1: I agree, all right, we'll be right back after this

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Speaker 1: with more on sudicide.

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Speaker 2: Stuff you should know, gosh Man show stuff you should know.

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Speaker 1: All right, So before we broke, I mentioned before that

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Speaker 1: it used to be way easier to get away with

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Speaker 1: this kind of thing. I think this probably happened a

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Speaker 1: lot more back in the day. As with all crime,

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Speaker 1: it's just gotten more difficult to get away with that stuff.

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Speaker 1: Besides DNA facial recogn technology and video cameras on everyone's

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Speaker 1: front doorstep and the surveillance cameras that cities have employed

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Speaker 1: all over you know, major cities all over the world.

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Speaker 1: It's just really hard to not get caught on one

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Speaker 1: of these eventually, and someone say, hey, the guy going

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Speaker 1: into that Italian restaurant there is totally my dad. I

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Speaker 1: would recognize them anywhere.

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Speaker 2: Right right. I thought those doorstep cameras were to create

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Speaker 2: a sense of community, like you would find out what

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Speaker 2: a great person your ups driver. Isn't that what they're for?

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Speaker 1: I think so? Because they pet your kiddy.

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Speaker 2: Right, It just tangentially helps to track people who fake

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Speaker 2: their own death.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, or too uh in my case to post on

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Speaker 1: the internet when when squirrels attack is what I call

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Speaker 1: my show.

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Speaker 2: It's a great show.

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Speaker 1: Emily sent me one yesterday. She was like, hey, take

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Speaker 1: a look at the doorbell came at twelve eleven and

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Speaker 1: she tripped going up the stairs in a very very

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Speaker 1: funny way, and so she made sure I saw that.

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Speaker 2: Are you gonna post it?

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Speaker 1: No?

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Speaker 2: No, no, no, you should post it to Yakity Sachs.

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Speaker 2: I might do that actually one of the So, yeah,

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Speaker 2: there's a lot of ways that you can get caught

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Speaker 2: these days, in ways you might not have thought of.

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Speaker 2: Here's a word to the wise. If you're going to

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Speaker 2: try to stage your death, and everybody who has anything

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Speaker 2: to do with the research of this article says, don't bother.

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Speaker 2: You're going to screw it up. Probably you had better

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Speaker 2: researched every single aspect you can possibly think of and

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Speaker 2: started a long time before. It would really help if

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Speaker 2: you had thought about this ten years ago. Yeah, the

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Speaker 2: best time to start planning your pseudo side is ten

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Speaker 2: years ago. The second best time is today. But it's

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Speaker 2: not really a good time. Second best. That's the old saying.

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Speaker 2: But if you started thinking about it ten years ago,

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Speaker 2: you could have really actually given this identity your new

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Speaker 2: false identity legs by like getting credit cards in its name,

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Speaker 2: building a credit history. Like it would be way easier

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Speaker 2: to step into that life than say, like, you know,

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Speaker 2: for figuring out what tour is and then buying like

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Speaker 2: a false identity the same day. You want to plan

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Speaker 2: it better than that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I feel like in movies a lot of times,

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Speaker 1: that's the giveaway is they'll they'll be like, well, you

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Speaker 1: don't have any credit history, and I really can't find

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Speaker 1: anything about you. But if you've got a you know,

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Speaker 1: a list of cable bills and a credit history and

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Speaker 1: stuff that goes back, you know, ten years. It's like

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Speaker 1: just having your ID isn't enough if you have a

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Speaker 1: history already built up. I mean, this guy was an

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Speaker 1: artist in twenty thirteen named Curtis Wallin who did it

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Speaker 1: a sort of performance art, like as a project, and

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Speaker 1: he created an alter ego, and he got a driver's license,

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Speaker 1: He got an ID certifying him as a member of

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Speaker 1: a indigenous Native American tribe. He got a boat operator's license.

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Speaker 1: Like that, that's kind of a deep cut, I think, yeah.

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Speaker 2: I think so too. I think, you know, that's the

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Speaker 2: kind of thing where you like, would a fake person

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Speaker 2: have a boat operator's license.

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Speaker 1: For a decade exactly? He got insurance, Like if you

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Speaker 1: have all this stuff, then all of a sudden, you're

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Speaker 1: just not as suspicious. I think no.

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Speaker 2: He went even further, too, Like he disguised his his look.

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Speaker 2: I guess yeah, by I guess so yeah, for like

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Speaker 2: your ID, because it would be very easy for somebody

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Speaker 2: to scan a database of driver's licenses looking for somebody's face.

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Speaker 2: That's easy pasy these days. But what he did was

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Speaker 2: he took his driver's license photo and then merged it

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Speaker 2: with a couple other people's features to create an entirely

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Speaker 2: synthetic new person. That's what he used for his photo.

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Speaker 2: I guess it was close enough that if you showed

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Speaker 2: it to somebody that wouldn't be like, what is this

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Speaker 2: weird thing? He looks like a Picasso, but like it

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Speaker 2: would still fool facial recognition.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, and of course, like you said, he's photoshopped.

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Speaker 1: These days, it could be very easily done with AI

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Speaker 1: much quicker.

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Speaker 2: Sure, I'm old school, though, remember this is twenty ten.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right. This new photoshop thing is amazing, isn't it.

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Speaker 2: It is? And I don't know what the heck you

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Speaker 2: mean by AI.

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Speaker 1: Someone's going to write and be like photoshopple is created

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Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety seven.

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Speaker 2: It probably was, actually, yeah, probably somewhere in the nineties.

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Speaker 1: He also the way he started all this was created

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Speaker 1: an email address. You know, it seems pretty logical. He's

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Speaker 1: the private tour browser and he got in touch with

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Speaker 1: someone on Craigslist anonymously and said, I want to buy

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Speaker 1: this computer. I want to pay cash. Cash, as you'll see,

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Speaker 1: is a big part of all this. Yes, anytime you

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Speaker 1: want to do this, have a lot of cash. On hand,

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Speaker 1: we're not instructing you on how to do this.

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Speaker 2: No, it's kind of coming out that way though, huh

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Speaker 2: it is.

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Speaker 1: And again, if you're doing something like this, you're either

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Speaker 1: a bad person who's done something we were wrong, or

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Speaker 1: you've had something done very wrong to you, which is

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Speaker 1: very sad. So again we're not making light of it.

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Speaker 1: But he bought that computer with cash. He sort of

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Speaker 1: disguised himself when he met up, and then he used

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Speaker 1: more cash to buy a bitcoin at a computer shop

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Speaker 1: like a brick and mortar store. So bitcoin is obviously,

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Speaker 1: you know, converting if you have holdings or whatever you

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Speaker 1: want to convert to bitcoin, that's a or cash. It's

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Speaker 1: a better way to do it than obviously having that

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Speaker 1: in your name, but that's very hard to do these days.

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Speaker 1: Like everything can be tracked and traced so much easier now.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, including bitcoin. Although the bitcoin transactions themselves are anonymous,

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Speaker 2: that or who's buying what is anonymous, the actual transition

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Speaker 2: transaction is public and it's publicly listed in the bitcoin blockchain.

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Speaker 2: And you if your real name is associated somewhere down

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Speaker 2: the line with say your bitcoin wallet, and the feds

401
00:21:09,080 --> 00:21:11,040
Speaker 2: track a bitcoin to go to your wallet. They know

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Speaker 2: that you have just bought a bitcoin, and so they

403
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Speaker 2: can follow you and see what you do with that bitcoin.

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Speaker 2: So it's really really hard, even with cryptocurrency to remain anonymous,

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Speaker 2: which is another reason that you would want to do

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Speaker 2: this years ahead of time. You mentioned buying everything with cash.

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Speaker 2: You don't want to on the day before you disappear

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Speaker 2: and like allegedly die. You don't want to clean out

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Speaker 2: your bank accounts. That's a big, big red flag. That

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Speaker 2: is bush league, right, Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Twenties and hundreds will be fine. Just put it in

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Speaker 1: this garbage sack.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, don't look at me.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So, yeah, you want to have been socking away cash,

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Speaker 2: maybe burying it in mason jars in your yard, who knows,

417
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Speaker 2: while you also have your regular, legitimate bank accounts that

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Speaker 2: you do not touch when you leave. Because dead people

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Speaker 2: don't withdraw a bunch of money but from their accounts

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Speaker 2: the day before they die. It's just a bad look.

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Speaker 2: So it's another reason to start planning this long ahead

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Speaker 2: of time if you have any any opportunity to.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and I mean, like you know, we've listed a

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Speaker 1: bunch of ways you can get caught. It turns out

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Speaker 1: that the way most people get caught when they attempt

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Speaker 1: a pseudo side is getting in touch with someone from

427
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Speaker 1: their previous life. Yeah, if this is the kind of

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Speaker 1: thing you want to do, you have to. And this

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Speaker 1: is how it plays out in the movies too. I

430
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Speaker 1: feel like you got to really really commit to this

431
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Speaker 1: and decide, like i Am never gonna see my kids again,

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Speaker 1: or I'm never gonna call my mom on her birthday

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Speaker 1: or anything. You have to completely disappear from that life

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Speaker 1: because especially once again, I hate to say it again,

435
00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:56,720
Speaker 1: these days, it's very easy to track email and phone

436
00:22:56,720 --> 00:22:58,880
Speaker 1: calls and everything else, and it's gonna be very easy

437
00:22:58,920 --> 00:23:00,600
Speaker 1: if you put in that birthday call the mom just

438
00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:02,400
Speaker 1: one last time, a year after you're dead.

439
00:23:02,680 --> 00:23:06,040
Speaker 2: Yep, they'll be like, your your toast man, we caught you.

440
00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:10,000
Speaker 2: Yeah there was another one. Did you mention the pet chip?

441
00:23:11,720 --> 00:23:14,320
Speaker 1: No, but yeah, that's one you probably might not be

442
00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:14,800
Speaker 1: thinking of.

443
00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:17,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, you could easily overlook something like that. Let's say

444
00:23:17,560 --> 00:23:19,400
Speaker 2: you take your dog or your cat with you, right,

445
00:23:19,440 --> 00:23:21,679
Speaker 2: you took them out on the boat and the boat capsize,

446
00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:25,920
Speaker 2: So sure they're dead too if they're micro chipped. You

447
00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:28,400
Speaker 2: might have forgotten that you ever had a microchip. Your

448
00:23:28,440 --> 00:23:30,920
Speaker 2: pet can pretty easily be tracked, and if they track

449
00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:32,880
Speaker 2: down your pet, they're going to track you down too.

450
00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:33,520
Speaker 1: So good point.

451
00:23:33,600 --> 00:23:36,440
Speaker 2: Yes, I think if we're if we're if we're getting

452
00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:40,480
Speaker 2: across that this is really hard to do successfully, I

453
00:23:40,520 --> 00:23:43,120
Speaker 2: feel like then you know we're really achieving our goal.

454
00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:46,919
Speaker 1: Yeah, but again I'm not I'm not gonna feel too

455
00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:50,320
Speaker 1: bad about giving semi instruction here because believe it or not,

456
00:23:50,440 --> 00:23:55,760
Speaker 1: it's not a crime. Usually stuff you do to get

457
00:23:55,800 --> 00:23:59,840
Speaker 1: away with this as a crime, it could be. And

458
00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:03,040
Speaker 1: just put like insurance fraud aside that maybe the reason

459
00:24:03,080 --> 00:24:06,600
Speaker 1: you're doing it, but the actual doing it, the act

460
00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:09,560
Speaker 1: of doing it, you're probably gonna be breaking some laws,

461
00:24:09,680 --> 00:24:14,440
Speaker 1: even if it's just like fake dental records or any

462
00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:18,640
Speaker 1: kind of untrue. Even writing a fake suicide letter could

463
00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:22,399
Speaker 1: be considered forgery or fraud, I guess. And then if

464
00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:25,200
Speaker 1: you take on a new identity, that's identity fraud, right,

465
00:24:25,760 --> 00:24:27,840
Speaker 1: even if you're not like, it's not identity theft, that

466
00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:30,600
Speaker 1: which is different, even if you're not stealing someone else's identity,

467
00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:35,360
Speaker 1: like done, Well, I'm not gonna spoil something from a

468
00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:38,679
Speaker 1: TV show, oh, because it's two thousand and eight almost

469
00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:40,239
Speaker 1: blurted it out, but I don't want to do that.

470
00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:42,320
Speaker 2: But Don Johnson from Miami Vice.

471
00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:44,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, sure, let's just say that all A said is

472
00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:48,240
Speaker 1: done like stealing someone's identity, like let's say like you

473
00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:50,320
Speaker 1: were in the army with or let's go ahead and

474
00:24:50,359 --> 00:24:52,879
Speaker 1: ruin the Simpsons principal Skinner did.

475
00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:58,560
Speaker 2: That, right, Yeah, Harmon Tansarian. Yeah, you know what.

476
00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:00,480
Speaker 1: My favorite my favorite line from that.

477
00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:02,320
Speaker 2: I was about to say to you, go ahead there,

478
00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:03,400
Speaker 2: what if.

479
00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:05,359
Speaker 1: It's the same line, wouldn't that be it is? Do

480
00:25:05,359 --> 00:25:09,000
Speaker 1: you think it is ahead with the superintendent or whatever?

481
00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:12,440
Speaker 1: Uh huh, he says, I'd like to introduce our but

482
00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:18,119
Speaker 1: our new principal Seymore Skinner. Principal Seymore Skinner something like that.

483
00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:21,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, very fun. That was a weird episode.

484
00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:23,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, agreed.

485
00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:26,119
Speaker 2: So you said that if you steal someone's identity, like

486
00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:30,320
Speaker 2: that's obviously a crime. For sure. If you make up

487
00:25:30,320 --> 00:25:35,680
Speaker 2: a completely false identity like you didn't steal it from anybody,

488
00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:39,240
Speaker 2: it's just completely made up, you're still eventually going to

489
00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:39,879
Speaker 2: make a crime.

490
00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:42,680
Speaker 1: Well, I mean that's that's what I said. That's identity fraud.

491
00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:45,760
Speaker 2: Okay, So even if you even so you said that

492
00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:48,960
Speaker 2: even if it's just totally made up, it's still identity fraud.

493
00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:52,280
Speaker 2: I did, sir, okay, good, because yes, eventually you're going

494
00:25:52,359 --> 00:25:55,200
Speaker 2: to have to legalize it and want to do that.

495
00:25:55,320 --> 00:25:58,560
Speaker 2: You're in trouble. There's a lot of laws you're suddenly breaking.

496
00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:02,560
Speaker 2: The thing is, though, is there is something you said

497
00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:04,879
Speaker 2: earlier about the cops is kind of being like they

498
00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:09,480
Speaker 2: can't really be bothered depending on how well you execute

499
00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:12,879
Speaker 2: this and where you go, Like say you move to

500
00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:17,399
Speaker 2: another country, it's gonna be tough for the cops to

501
00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:23,280
Speaker 2: track you, even if they really want to. Everyone who's

502
00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:25,920
Speaker 2: ever seen a movie like Beverly Hills copp or whatever

503
00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:28,720
Speaker 2: knows that the captain is going to be on that

504
00:26:28,840 --> 00:26:31,800
Speaker 2: detective's butt to clear that case and go ahead and

505
00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:34,040
Speaker 2: move on to the other ones because they have a backlog.

506
00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:36,320
Speaker 2: So they're not going to track you to New Zealand.

507
00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:39,520
Speaker 2: They're just gonna have to like move on, get another

508
00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:42,080
Speaker 2: take on another case. It's maybe a little closer that

509
00:26:42,119 --> 00:26:46,360
Speaker 2: doesn't involve New Zealand. But again, if it has anything

510
00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:48,840
Speaker 2: to do with insurance fraud, there's probably going to be

511
00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:52,720
Speaker 2: an insurance investigator who will show up in New Zealand

512
00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:56,639
Speaker 2: disguised as a sheep and then pounce the moment that

513
00:26:56,680 --> 00:26:57,679
Speaker 2: you walk past.

514
00:26:58,280 --> 00:27:01,199
Speaker 1: Yeah, or if it's not in certainly, if you have

515
00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:05,520
Speaker 1: defrauded a corporation or a bank or something like that

516
00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:08,679
Speaker 1: for like tens of millions or maybe even hundreds of

517
00:27:08,680 --> 00:27:12,119
Speaker 1: millions of dollars, right, they'll they'll hire some pis to

518
00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:14,720
Speaker 1: get on that case. Pretty toot sweet for sure.

519
00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:17,840
Speaker 2: And since this is two thousand and eight, twenty ten,

520
00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:20,480
Speaker 2: I got to give the obligatory shout out to magnum

521
00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:20,760
Speaker 2: p I.

522
00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:24,840
Speaker 1: Right, that's right, because that's when he was most popular.

523
00:27:25,119 --> 00:27:27,080
Speaker 2: Well, that's when I loved him the most.

524
00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:30,440
Speaker 1: No, uh is your love Wane?

525
00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:33,600
Speaker 2: I think I just started taking him for granted, same

526
00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:34,240
Speaker 2: old story.

527
00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:38,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, I understand happenstallars in a long relationship.

528
00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:41,240
Speaker 2: You want to take another break.

529
00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:43,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, let's take a break and we'll maybe we'll dive

530
00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:46,439
Speaker 1: into that what an insurance company might do to find you?

531
00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:47,000
Speaker 1: How about that?

532
00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:54,639
Speaker 2: Oh? Good idea stuff you should know, Josh, and shock

533
00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:13,800
Speaker 2: stuff you should know. Okay, so we're back, and you

534
00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:17,719
Speaker 2: said you promised everybody without consulting me first, that we

535
00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:20,600
Speaker 2: would start talking about what life insurance companies will do

536
00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:21,320
Speaker 2: to find you.

537
00:28:21,800 --> 00:28:24,239
Speaker 1: Yes, I guess we could start talking a little bit

538
00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:28,000
Speaker 1: about what might like what might trigger this as far

539
00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:30,280
Speaker 1: as an insurance company saying like, all right, we definitely

540
00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:33,800
Speaker 1: need to use our own resources here, aside from cops

541
00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:35,560
Speaker 1: saying that they're not going to help out much. And

542
00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:39,000
Speaker 1: that is the first trigger is if your policy has

543
00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:42,160
Speaker 1: a payout over a million bucks, they'll be like, all right,

544
00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:43,520
Speaker 1: that that's worth our time and money.

545
00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:47,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's apparently they think of basically any payout under

546
00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:49,520
Speaker 2: a million dollars of small potatoes.

547
00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:53,440
Speaker 1: So yeah, so so mister Clark, No, his was just

548
00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:56,280
Speaker 1: nine hundred ninety nine, nine hundred ninety nine dollars a

549
00:28:56,360 --> 00:28:59,480
Speaker 1: ninety nine cents. Just exactly brush that one aside.

550
00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:04,320
Speaker 2: Forget about it. Yeah. Basically, anytime your death is sudden, unexpected,

551
00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:06,800
Speaker 2: or suspicious in any way, they're going to they're going

552
00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:10,800
Speaker 2: to investigate, not necessarily because they think you've committed death fraud,

553
00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:14,160
Speaker 2: but because they need to investigate anyway to rule out

554
00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:16,800
Speaker 2: something like suicide, because there might be an exception for

555
00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:20,680
Speaker 2: suicide on your policy. Yeah, that's a big one. They

556
00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:25,440
Speaker 2: also look for inconsistencies, if there's any kind of inconsistency

557
00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:29,160
Speaker 2: on say like your driver's license or your death certificate

558
00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:31,480
Speaker 2: or something like that, that's going to catch their attention too.

559
00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:34,600
Speaker 2: This is all just preliminary stuff they're looking at before

560
00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:37,360
Speaker 2: they really decide to get involved in an investigation.

561
00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:40,560
Speaker 1: Even. Yeah, you mentioned the Philippines as being like the

562
00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:43,760
Speaker 1: biggest red flag, but really any claim involving a death

563
00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:47,200
Speaker 1: in a foreign country is going to get investigated. Just

564
00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:51,000
Speaker 1: to sort of dot the eyes and cross the t's,

565
00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:54,880
Speaker 1: maybe they might be a little suspicious, but it definitely

566
00:29:54,880 --> 00:30:00,440
Speaker 1: will get investigated. And also, if you're like everything just

567
00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:04,920
Speaker 1: send everything to my PO box, that's that's a pretty

568
00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:05,719
Speaker 1: big red flag.

569
00:30:06,120 --> 00:30:09,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, or even like a friend's address would be a

570
00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:13,760
Speaker 2: red flag as well. What else, if you're super thirsty

571
00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:16,680
Speaker 2: for a life insurance policy and they find out that

572
00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:19,400
Speaker 2: you've applied with a bunch of different carriers all at

573
00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:23,040
Speaker 2: the same time, that's going to raise red flags, especially

574
00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:28,400
Speaker 2: if the payout is substantially disproportionate to your net worth.

575
00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:33,160
Speaker 2: So you're worth three hundred thousand dollars or fifty thousand dollars,

576
00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:36,680
Speaker 2: but the payout is like ten million dollars. That's just

577
00:30:37,240 --> 00:30:40,760
Speaker 2: by virtue of that being very tantalizing. It's going to

578
00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:42,400
Speaker 2: be it's going to be a red flag.

579
00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:45,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, here's a pretty good one that I didn't think about.

580
00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:49,600
Speaker 1: If they'll look up their insurance client or whatever and

581
00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:52,440
Speaker 1: they'll be like, this is weird. Josh Clark went and

582
00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:56,760
Speaker 1: picked up a year's worth of his heart medication all

583
00:30:56,800 --> 00:30:59,200
Speaker 1: at once, and then right after that went to visit

584
00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:01,960
Speaker 1: one of his relative that he hasn't visited in a decade.

585
00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:04,880
Speaker 1: So this sounds a little shady to me.

586
00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:08,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, I have to take that medicine because my heart's

587
00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:10,080
Speaker 2: so big and tender.

588
00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:12,200
Speaker 1: Right, I know that you just have to. It would

589
00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:13,560
Speaker 1: burst out of your chest otherwise.

590
00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:19,160
Speaker 2: And then also there's some missteps that people who try

591
00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:24,360
Speaker 2: this often make. One is staying in the same city.

592
00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:27,800
Speaker 2: That's fine, bogglingly dumb if you're trying to fake your

593
00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:28,280
Speaker 2: own death.

594
00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:33,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, if I were to do this, I guarantee no

595
00:31:33,080 --> 00:31:33,760
Speaker 1: one would find me.

596
00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:37,000
Speaker 2: No, because you wouldn't do it like you're lazy.

597
00:31:37,480 --> 00:31:41,640
Speaker 1: I could disappear into another country quite well, I think.

598
00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:46,120
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I mean you're pretty famous. Come on, not

599
00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:49,680
Speaker 2: that famous, you're famous enough that somebody would knarck on you.

600
00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:52,040
Speaker 1: So if I just went well, I'm not going to

601
00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:53,800
Speaker 1: say the country, just in case I want to keep

602
00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:54,600
Speaker 1: you in this pocket.

603
00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:57,200
Speaker 2: I was thinking that too, man, after all the research

604
00:31:57,360 --> 00:32:00,680
Speaker 2: I've been doing, that is surely just hanging around in

605
00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:04,280
Speaker 2: my browser history. If I ever tried to fake my death,

606
00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:06,440
Speaker 2: it would be pretty obvious that I tried it, just

607
00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:07,960
Speaker 2: from all the research for this one.

608
00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:12,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure, you also don't want to, Like, there's

609
00:32:12,880 --> 00:32:15,920
Speaker 1: lots of e mistakes you can make, like electronic mistakes,

610
00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:20,120
Speaker 1: whether it's cell phone stuff or googling yourself from an

611
00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:25,240
Speaker 1: Internet cafe in the Philippines or you know, stuff like

612
00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:26,920
Speaker 1: that that could get you pinched.

613
00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:32,440
Speaker 2: Yeah. And then also if your new identity is pretty

614
00:32:32,440 --> 00:32:36,120
Speaker 2: close to your old identity, that might be you might

615
00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:38,960
Speaker 2: want to go slightly further to the left or the

616
00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:42,800
Speaker 2: right for your new identity, not even politically, I just mean,

617
00:32:42,840 --> 00:32:44,280
Speaker 2: like veer, oh.

618
00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:46,240
Speaker 1: I didn't think about that. If you adopt a complete

619
00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:51,200
Speaker 1: if you're known for being like whatever, like a maga Republican,

620
00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:53,680
Speaker 1: and you adopt the new identity as this progressive liberal,

621
00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:55,520
Speaker 1: pretty smart move. Probably.

622
00:32:55,920 --> 00:32:58,720
Speaker 2: Yeah. There's this guy named Josh Clark who is a

623
00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:02,040
Speaker 2: Republican that who I think is in the Georgia House.

624
00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:06,280
Speaker 2: I could just take over his life, yeah and still

625
00:33:06,320 --> 00:33:11,200
Speaker 2: be Josh Clark, but a totally different Josh Clark. Yeah,

626
00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:14,000
Speaker 2: what else, Chuck anything, I mean, those are all the

627
00:33:14,040 --> 00:33:17,160
Speaker 2: things that would trigger like an insurance investigation pretty much.

628
00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:17,640
Speaker 1: Yeah.

629
00:33:17,680 --> 00:33:20,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, yes. So, like we said, Chuck, this is like

630
00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:24,120
Speaker 2: this happens. People do this, and when they get caught,

631
00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:27,920
Speaker 2: it makes the news. So there's pretty good documentation of

632
00:33:27,960 --> 00:33:31,840
Speaker 2: people all over the world trying this. One that comes

633
00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:34,640
Speaker 2: up quite a bit as a German student who in

634
00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:37,520
Speaker 2: nineteen eighty four was twenty four years old. Her name

635
00:33:37,560 --> 00:33:43,400
Speaker 2: was Petra Pezzika. Yeah, and she went missing from Brownschwig

636
00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:47,320
Speaker 2: Brown Schweig, Germany. I'm not doing very well with this.

637
00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:48,320
Speaker 1: No, that's perfect.

638
00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:52,160
Speaker 2: Brown Schweig makes me hungry for some sort of sausage.

639
00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:57,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, it totally sounds sausage. Yeah. So she was reported

640
00:33:57,200 --> 00:33:59,880
Speaker 1: missing right in nineteen eighty four. She's twenty four at

641
00:33:59,880 --> 00:34:03,080
Speaker 1: the time, I think you said. And at a certain

642
00:34:03,120 --> 00:34:07,200
Speaker 1: point police got a guy that confessed to her murder.

643
00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:10,040
Speaker 1: So that was like a case closed kind of situation,

644
00:34:10,239 --> 00:34:12,479
Speaker 1: even though the body wasn't found and the guy later

645
00:34:12,520 --> 00:34:17,120
Speaker 1: said I actually did not kill her. He recanted his confession.

646
00:34:17,640 --> 00:34:20,160
Speaker 1: So she was declared dead dead dead about five years

647
00:34:20,200 --> 00:34:23,719
Speaker 1: later in eighty nine, and lived quite a while with

648
00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:25,400
Speaker 1: a sort of hidden identity.

649
00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:30,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, she finally got caught. She had turned. It turns

650
00:34:30,280 --> 00:34:35,879
Speaker 2: out she had been living by working, being paid under

651
00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:38,960
Speaker 2: the table. She seems to have had like no credit

652
00:34:39,040 --> 00:34:41,200
Speaker 2: or any any need for anything like that. She was

653
00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:44,760
Speaker 2: just living a very modest, quiet life, paying for everything

654
00:34:44,800 --> 00:34:47,759
Speaker 2: with cash. So she got away with this for more

655
00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:51,680
Speaker 2: than twenty five years, and she was burgled. At some

656
00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:55,400
Speaker 2: point she called the cops, and I guess, just as routine,

657
00:34:55,440 --> 00:34:58,760
Speaker 2: they asked to see her ID and she hadn't bothered

658
00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:01,000
Speaker 2: to get any other kind of So she's like, you

659
00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:04,640
Speaker 2: caught me. I'm Petra Pazika, And they said, we've been

660
00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:08,720
Speaker 2: looking for you forever. And apparently they did not press

661
00:35:08,760 --> 00:35:11,359
Speaker 2: any charges because they couldn't find any crime that she'd

662
00:35:11,360 --> 00:35:15,000
Speaker 2: actually broken. She didn't defraud anybody, she hadn't gotten any

663
00:35:15,040 --> 00:35:19,239
Speaker 2: false documents. She just left her life essentially. No one

664
00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:20,600
Speaker 2: knows why. That's the weird thing.

665
00:35:21,040 --> 00:35:24,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, so they said guten tog and they left. I guess.

666
00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:28,319
Speaker 2: Yeah. But even after her being found out and being

667
00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:32,960
Speaker 2: in like the story being huge international news. She just

668
00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:35,680
Speaker 2: wouldn't say why she did that. She just said, I

669
00:35:35,680 --> 00:35:38,200
Speaker 2: don't want to contact my family. Yeah.

670
00:35:38,239 --> 00:35:41,880
Speaker 1: And there are other cases too where police have, like

671
00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:46,400
Speaker 1: in the interview or whatever, found out why and don't

672
00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:48,960
Speaker 1: release that to the public, like it's probably some sort

673
00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:52,720
Speaker 1: of really sad, tragic situation. And I've seen police statements

674
00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:54,480
Speaker 1: where they're like, you know, we had an interview and

675
00:35:55,120 --> 00:35:58,040
Speaker 1: we understand why this happened, but there were no crimes committed,

676
00:35:58,120 --> 00:36:00,520
Speaker 1: and why it happened is NONEYA.

677
00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:04,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think this is not actually that case I

678
00:36:04,160 --> 00:36:06,840
Speaker 2: saw somewhere if I'm not mistaken that her family was

679
00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:09,239
Speaker 2: baffled by why she left and why she didn't want

680
00:36:09,280 --> 00:36:09,799
Speaker 2: to see them.

681
00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:12,279
Speaker 1: No, no, no, this was I wasn't talking about this one.

682
00:36:12,280 --> 00:36:15,040
Speaker 2: Oh okay yeah yeah, yeah for sure. And hats off

683
00:36:15,080 --> 00:36:17,359
Speaker 2: to any cop that protects somebody like that, you.

684
00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:23,000
Speaker 1: Know, totally. I'll mention this one. This guy Sam Israel

685
00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:27,440
Speaker 1: the third, he was a hedge fund manager and he

686
00:36:27,680 --> 00:36:29,840
Speaker 1: was you know, this is one of those deals where

687
00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:34,720
Speaker 1: he stole three hundred million dollars, was sentenced to prison

688
00:36:34,840 --> 00:36:37,080
Speaker 1: a couple of decades in prison, So it was one

689
00:36:37,120 --> 00:36:39,840
Speaker 1: of those back up against the wall. I'm going to jail,

690
00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:43,040
Speaker 1: and I'm in debt up to my eyeballs now, or

691
00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:44,799
Speaker 1: I guess that even wouldn't count as debt anymore when

692
00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:46,440
Speaker 1: you're going to prison. That's just you know, you were

693
00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:49,799
Speaker 1: found out, sure, And in June two thousand and eight,

694
00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:54,560
Speaker 1: he wrote a message suicide is painless, and the pollen

695
00:36:54,840 --> 00:36:57,120
Speaker 1: on his suv can She kind of traced it out

696
00:36:57,880 --> 00:37:01,480
Speaker 1: and jumped from a bridge and New York State very

697
00:37:01,520 --> 00:37:05,760
Speaker 1: conveniently landing on that construction net below that is so scary,

698
00:37:06,480 --> 00:37:08,680
Speaker 1: pretty scary, but I guess you know it. You know

699
00:37:09,000 --> 00:37:13,040
Speaker 1: that's there to catch people. I guess sure. So he

700
00:37:13,080 --> 00:37:15,279
Speaker 1: went to that very specific bridge for that reason, and

701
00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:20,520
Speaker 1: security cameras caught him literally getting up in another car

702
00:37:20,680 --> 00:37:23,719
Speaker 1: in an SUV that pulled up and like, you know,

703
00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:26,920
Speaker 1: the sound was off, but I'm sure they heard like wooo,

704
00:37:27,280 --> 00:37:30,319
Speaker 1: we did it, and like they honked their horn, and

705
00:37:31,080 --> 00:37:33,440
Speaker 1: they got in touch with his girlfriend, arrested her as

706
00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:37,000
Speaker 1: a possible accomplice. He was on the most wanted list

707
00:37:37,080 --> 00:37:38,920
Speaker 1: because it was, you know, pretty clear what had happened

708
00:37:38,920 --> 00:37:41,319
Speaker 1: to that point, and he got found out because he

709
00:37:41,400 --> 00:37:43,640
Speaker 1: called his mom.

710
00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:46,120
Speaker 2: Who said, you need to turn yourself in. This is

711
00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:50,080
Speaker 2: a terrible idea and you were a terrible, terrible pseudocyitist.

712
00:37:50,600 --> 00:37:52,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, you did not do that, and it seemed you know,

713
00:37:53,080 --> 00:37:55,920
Speaker 1: here's some other advice is if you do this, like,

714
00:37:56,000 --> 00:37:57,960
Speaker 1: don't go off to dinner to celebrate the next night,

715
00:37:57,960 --> 00:38:01,000
Speaker 1: because a few people get caught at at dinner it

716
00:38:01,040 --> 00:38:01,600
Speaker 1: seems like.

717
00:38:01,920 --> 00:38:05,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, that actually that does happen to a surprising degree.

718
00:38:06,040 --> 00:38:10,360
Speaker 2: My favorite is John Stonehouse, who was a huge This

719
00:38:10,520 --> 00:38:12,040
Speaker 2: was a big deal in the UK in the mid

720
00:38:12,120 --> 00:38:15,160
Speaker 2: seventies because he was a member of parliament and in

721
00:38:15,239 --> 00:38:18,440
Speaker 2: nineteen seventy four he went missing off the coast of

722
00:38:18,440 --> 00:38:21,320
Speaker 2: Miami when he went for a swim. Oh that was

723
00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:23,960
Speaker 2: one other thing. If you are if you disappear in

724
00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:26,960
Speaker 2: the water, you're automatically going to get investigated by an

725
00:38:26,960 --> 00:38:33,040
Speaker 2: insurance company because it is just so, yes, it is so.

726
00:38:33,360 --> 00:38:36,520
Speaker 2: He went. This is before that, though he made it

727
00:38:36,520 --> 00:38:40,759
Speaker 2: to Australia, he ran off with his secretary and as

728
00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:44,840
Speaker 2: he while he was dead in parliament, people started raising

729
00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:49,239
Speaker 2: allegations against him. One was that he had enemies in

730
00:38:49,280 --> 00:38:53,960
Speaker 2: the mafia. Another was that he was a spy for Czechoslovakia.

731
00:38:54,520 --> 00:38:57,760
Speaker 2: That turned out to be true weirdly, and then finally

732
00:38:58,600 --> 00:39:02,040
Speaker 2: a woman came forward and later on and said, this

733
00:39:02,200 --> 00:39:05,520
Speaker 2: guy came to my house was he said he was

734
00:39:05,560 --> 00:39:08,640
Speaker 2: a census taker, a survey taker, and he started asking

735
00:39:08,680 --> 00:39:12,200
Speaker 2: really weird questions about my husband, like did he ever

736
00:39:12,239 --> 00:39:16,439
Speaker 2: have a passport? So eventually he was found I think

737
00:39:16,520 --> 00:39:21,160
Speaker 2: in Australia and a months later, Yeah, he just had

738
00:39:21,200 --> 00:39:24,160
Speaker 2: he had to come forward and basically tell everybody what

739
00:39:24,239 --> 00:39:25,280
Speaker 2: had happened, right.

740
00:39:25,960 --> 00:39:30,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, And well, I guess it's not funny, but the movie,

741
00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:32,680
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, the I guess the novel I don't think

742
00:39:32,719 --> 00:39:35,160
Speaker 1: the movie had come out yet. Day of the Jackal

743
00:39:35,239 --> 00:39:37,960
Speaker 1: by Frederick Forsyth had been published a few years before,

744
00:39:38,520 --> 00:39:41,400
Speaker 1: and it appears that he literally kind of followed the

745
00:39:41,440 --> 00:39:45,080
Speaker 1: steps of how to obtain a False identity from that book,

746
00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:46,440
Speaker 1: kind of note by note.

747
00:39:46,560 --> 00:39:48,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's why he was asking about the passport. He

748
00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:52,200
Speaker 2: took a constituent's name who had never had a passport

749
00:39:52,239 --> 00:39:53,839
Speaker 2: and then got a passport in his name.

750
00:39:53,920 --> 00:39:59,040
Speaker 1: So yeah, yeah, I'll pick one more for me. In

751
00:39:59,040 --> 00:40:01,480
Speaker 1: two thousand and nine, that was he was a guy

752
00:40:01,480 --> 00:40:04,480
Speaker 1: in his mid thirties from Indianapolis, a money manager manager

753
00:40:04,560 --> 00:40:09,880
Speaker 1: named Marcus Shrinker. He staged a plane crash. He was

754
00:40:09,880 --> 00:40:13,000
Speaker 1: trying to get out of lawsuits and divorce proceedings, and

755
00:40:14,040 --> 00:40:16,480
Speaker 1: he got a bunch of cash, put it in his

756
00:40:16,560 --> 00:40:20,640
Speaker 1: motorcycle saddle bags, went to Alabama, put it in a

757
00:40:20,640 --> 00:40:22,879
Speaker 1: storage facility, so he had the cash kind of worked out.

758
00:40:23,320 --> 00:40:26,880
Speaker 1: Then he took his very small, little single prop airplane

759
00:40:27,360 --> 00:40:31,200
Speaker 1: from his house in Indiana and was flying above Alabama

760
00:40:31,280 --> 00:40:34,200
Speaker 1: radios to air traffic control that you know, he's going down,

761
00:40:34,239 --> 00:40:38,200
Speaker 1: something's wrong. He does a dB Cooper, he parachutes out.

762
00:40:38,320 --> 00:40:41,279
Speaker 1: The plane crashes in Florida, and the next day he

763
00:40:41,400 --> 00:40:43,520
Speaker 1: emails his friend and tells him what he did.

764
00:40:45,200 --> 00:40:49,120
Speaker 2: Brah Man. That's yeah. We could keep going on. There's

765
00:40:49,120 --> 00:40:50,759
Speaker 2: a lot of these, but those are I think those

766
00:40:50,760 --> 00:40:52,120
Speaker 2: are some of the highlights, don't you.

767
00:40:52,920 --> 00:40:56,000
Speaker 1: Yeah. We should probably close by talking about another kind

768
00:40:56,040 --> 00:41:02,360
Speaker 1: of pseudo side, which is a faked online desk. It's

769
00:41:02,840 --> 00:41:05,000
Speaker 1: usually not like an insurance fraud or anything like that,

770
00:41:05,120 --> 00:41:08,480
Speaker 1: but it's a symptom of what they used to call

771
00:41:08,600 --> 00:41:11,759
Speaker 1: Munkow's and syndrome, and now they call it FD or

772
00:41:12,560 --> 00:41:16,919
Speaker 1: factitious disorder again. Previously Munkhow's and syndrome where you will

773
00:41:16,920 --> 00:41:22,280
Speaker 1: try and get you know, it's tied into mental illness,

774
00:41:22,280 --> 00:41:25,600
Speaker 1: but it's a disorder where you're trying to get sympathy

775
00:41:25,719 --> 00:41:30,840
Speaker 1: by playing sick, or faking sick or actually having sometimes

776
00:41:30,920 --> 00:41:34,000
Speaker 1: real symptoms of something, but you're not sick, right, And

777
00:41:34,239 --> 00:41:36,200
Speaker 1: this is taking that one step further, which is to

778
00:41:36,239 --> 00:41:39,280
Speaker 1: get that sort of attention that you're craving or whatever

779
00:41:39,320 --> 00:41:42,359
Speaker 1: you're after through actually faking an online death. And it's

780
00:41:42,400 --> 00:41:44,840
Speaker 1: happened in some pretty high profile cases.

781
00:41:45,320 --> 00:41:48,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, it has. And to be clear, this is way

782
00:41:48,160 --> 00:41:51,440
Speaker 2: different from somebody trying to defraud an insurance company or

783
00:41:51,960 --> 00:41:56,120
Speaker 2: escape from an abusive spouse. This is strictly because they

784
00:41:56,160 --> 00:42:00,440
Speaker 2: want attention, they want sympathy, and or they want to

785
00:42:00,480 --> 00:42:05,319
Speaker 2: control other people and manipulate them. It's way different. There's a,

786
00:42:05,440 --> 00:42:07,800
Speaker 2: like you said, a very high profile one that happened

787
00:42:07,840 --> 00:42:10,439
Speaker 2: in at the dawn of the Internet. People have been

788
00:42:10,480 --> 00:42:15,800
Speaker 2: doing this essentially since there was an internet. A woman,

789
00:42:15,880 --> 00:42:18,560
Speaker 2: a teenager, a basketball star named Casey Nicole.

790
00:42:19,400 --> 00:42:19,920
Speaker 1: Remember this.

791
00:42:21,160 --> 00:42:23,680
Speaker 2: She was a I guess kind of like a little

792
00:42:23,840 --> 00:42:27,719
Speaker 2: star of chat forums and that kind of thing, had

793
00:42:27,719 --> 00:42:33,480
Speaker 2: a big kind of support group online, and she had leukemia.

794
00:42:33,920 --> 00:42:39,600
Speaker 2: So she posted about her her disease and decline from

795
00:42:39,680 --> 00:42:43,560
Speaker 2: it that was started in nineteen ninety nine and in

796
00:42:43,600 --> 00:42:45,919
Speaker 2: two thousand and one. In May of two thousand and one,

797
00:42:46,360 --> 00:42:48,400
Speaker 2: there was a notice that appeared on her blog that

798
00:42:48,520 --> 00:42:51,640
Speaker 2: said that she had passed away and people were just

799
00:42:52,040 --> 00:42:53,040
Speaker 2: stricken by this.

800
00:42:53,680 --> 00:42:56,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, I do remember this happening. It was pretty big

801
00:42:56,800 --> 00:43:00,800
Speaker 1: in the news at the time because again it Donnie Internet,

802
00:43:00,800 --> 00:43:02,719
Speaker 1: so people are like, what is the Internet being used

803
00:43:02,719 --> 00:43:08,840
Speaker 1: for already? So some of her followers had previously, you know,

804
00:43:08,920 --> 00:43:11,480
Speaker 1: saw some sort of hinky things going on in her stories.

805
00:43:12,200 --> 00:43:14,760
Speaker 1: Some of the medical stuff wasn't really making much sense

806
00:43:15,520 --> 00:43:19,600
Speaker 1: as far as like how leukemia progresses. And then apparently

807
00:43:19,640 --> 00:43:22,160
Speaker 1: she would quote a bunch of song lyrics that were

808
00:43:22,160 --> 00:43:26,160
Speaker 1: not from her generation, which isn't the biggest giveaway, you know,

809
00:43:26,200 --> 00:43:28,160
Speaker 1: you can listen to music from any generation, but it

810
00:43:28,719 --> 00:43:30,680
Speaker 1: just just shady enough, combined with the other stuff that

811
00:43:30,719 --> 00:43:33,440
Speaker 1: were like, why is this teenager quoting you know, songs

812
00:43:33,480 --> 00:43:35,680
Speaker 1: from the sixties all of us, you know, all over the.

813
00:43:35,600 --> 00:43:39,600
Speaker 2: Place, right. I didn't look deeply enough into it to

814
00:43:39,640 --> 00:43:42,359
Speaker 2: find out how she was finally outed, but a forty

815
00:43:42,400 --> 00:43:46,040
Speaker 2: year old woman named Debbie Swinson admitted that she was

816
00:43:46,120 --> 00:43:49,440
Speaker 2: behind the whole thing that Casey Nicole had never existed.

817
00:43:49,880 --> 00:43:53,480
Speaker 2: She stole the photo of a local girl basketball stars

818
00:43:53,800 --> 00:43:59,200
Speaker 2: picture her photo and used that as Casey, And I

819
00:43:59,239 --> 00:44:02,120
Speaker 2: mean that was that. Like, I guess the police department

820
00:44:02,280 --> 00:44:04,680
Speaker 2: told the FBI about it, and the FBI is like, no,

821
00:44:04,840 --> 00:44:07,440
Speaker 2: we're not going to investigate this. She didn't actually defraud

822
00:44:07,480 --> 00:44:09,799
Speaker 2: anybody or make any money off of it. She just

823
00:44:09,840 --> 00:44:13,960
Speaker 2: probably needs a little bit of help. Yeah, so that's

824
00:44:14,080 --> 00:44:19,839
Speaker 2: bad enough. Saying that, creating a fictitious teenager who's dying

825
00:44:19,840 --> 00:44:25,360
Speaker 2: of leukemia pretty bad. Telling people that you, the real you,

826
00:44:25,960 --> 00:44:29,759
Speaker 2: has died by suicide. There was an article in Gizmoto

827
00:44:29,800 --> 00:44:33,640
Speaker 2: that interviewed a professor of psychiatry named Mark Feldman, and

828
00:44:33,719 --> 00:44:35,960
Speaker 2: he puts it pretty clearly. He says, because of the

829
00:44:36,000 --> 00:44:40,560
Speaker 2: social stigma involved and the emotional weight associated with suicide,

830
00:44:40,560 --> 00:44:45,360
Speaker 2: it's particularly powerful, and that if you use that to

831
00:44:45,920 --> 00:44:50,120
Speaker 2: manipulate people, you're at the you're at the peak of manipulativeness.

832
00:44:50,560 --> 00:44:54,240
Speaker 2: And that's exactly what an author named Susan meetcher Mitchen

833
00:44:54,680 --> 00:44:55,840
Speaker 2: did in twenty twenty.

834
00:44:55,880 --> 00:44:59,160
Speaker 1: I think, right, yeah, I totally remember this one. This

835
00:44:59,200 --> 00:45:01,719
Speaker 1: is a very big deal. She was a self published

836
00:45:01,840 --> 00:45:05,360
Speaker 1: romance author and she had a you know, a decent

837
00:45:05,400 --> 00:45:09,000
Speaker 1: following on Facebook. And in twenty twenty and the voice

838
00:45:09,000 --> 00:45:11,200
Speaker 1: of her daughter posted that her mom had died by

839
00:45:11,239 --> 00:45:14,000
Speaker 1: suicide after being bullied in the book world. Yeah, and

840
00:45:14,040 --> 00:45:15,560
Speaker 1: it was a very big deal. It was a very

841
00:45:15,560 --> 00:45:20,360
Speaker 1: shocking revelation that, you know, this woman had been bullied

842
00:45:20,400 --> 00:45:24,120
Speaker 1: to death basically, and the writing community was all up

843
00:45:24,160 --> 00:45:26,479
Speaker 1: in arms about it, and like, you know, like, see,

844
00:45:26,520 --> 00:45:29,719
Speaker 1: this is what can happen with online bullying. Which what

845
00:45:29,880 --> 00:45:32,080
Speaker 1: really stinks is that is absolutely what can happen with

846
00:45:32,200 --> 00:45:37,400
Speaker 1: online bullying. But this woman was lying. Her daughter continued

847
00:45:37,400 --> 00:45:39,960
Speaker 1: to post on or you know, in scare quotes. Her

848
00:45:40,000 --> 00:45:43,760
Speaker 1: daughter continued to post to the account, and they someone

849
00:45:43,960 --> 00:45:46,120
Speaker 1: pointed out that they recognized a little quirk in her

850
00:45:46,120 --> 00:45:49,680
Speaker 1: writing was that Michen would say instead of supposed to

851
00:45:49,960 --> 00:45:53,440
Speaker 1: she would type post to post two like I'm post

852
00:45:53,480 --> 00:45:57,800
Speaker 1: to do this and that little jot from family circus exactly,

853
00:45:57,840 --> 00:46:02,239
Speaker 1: and that little quirk writing as her daughter gave it away.

854
00:46:03,160 --> 00:46:06,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, so she she was outed. I think she carried

855
00:46:06,880 --> 00:46:10,040
Speaker 2: this on for two years and then she suddenly showed

856
00:46:10,080 --> 00:46:15,439
Speaker 2: back up in her community, her writing community forum and said, hey,

857
00:46:15,600 --> 00:46:18,880
Speaker 2: I'm alive. This is all just a fake. She said,

858
00:46:19,120 --> 00:46:21,760
Speaker 2: there's gonna be tons of questions. Let the fun begin.

859
00:46:22,320 --> 00:46:25,239
Speaker 2: I can't imagine a more arrogant way to reannounce that

860
00:46:25,280 --> 00:46:28,640
Speaker 2: you didn't actually die. So people, of course were appalled

861
00:46:28,640 --> 00:46:33,000
Speaker 2: and angry, and like she she was, I think I

862
00:46:33,040 --> 00:46:35,200
Speaker 2: think she expected people to be like, oh my god,

863
00:46:35,280 --> 00:46:38,439
Speaker 2: thank god you're alive. That was amazing. It did not

864
00:46:38,520 --> 00:46:41,320
Speaker 2: go like that at all. She became reviled and hated,

865
00:46:41,719 --> 00:46:43,879
Speaker 2: and I think rightfully so that's a really horrible thing

866
00:46:43,920 --> 00:46:46,399
Speaker 2: to do to people. And also, on top of it,

867
00:46:46,440 --> 00:46:51,279
Speaker 2: to exploit online bullying. Yeah, totally, you know, just for

868
00:46:51,320 --> 00:46:55,720
Speaker 2: your own ego. It's just that's terrible stuff.

869
00:46:56,040 --> 00:46:56,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, agreed.

870
00:46:57,360 --> 00:46:59,919
Speaker 2: There's one more. I want to just really quickly point out.

871
00:47:00,120 --> 00:47:02,799
Speaker 2: This has happened more than once. People have faked their

872
00:47:02,920 --> 00:47:07,919
Speaker 2: death online to get out of some obligation. I read

873
00:47:07,920 --> 00:47:14,040
Speaker 2: about somebody kind of this was so one Knitting Forum

874
00:47:14,120 --> 00:47:19,640
Speaker 2: participant died rather than say, like, I'm not able to

875
00:47:20,080 --> 00:47:22,120
Speaker 2: come up with the patterns that I said I could.

876
00:47:23,239 --> 00:47:23,759
Speaker 2: That was one.

877
00:47:24,239 --> 00:47:24,479
Speaker 1: Yeah.

878
00:47:24,600 --> 00:47:28,840
Speaker 2: Another one was a Percy Jackson fan fiction site that

879
00:47:28,960 --> 00:47:32,719
Speaker 2: somebody staged their death online because they couldn't deliver some

880
00:47:32,800 --> 00:47:36,880
Speaker 2: fan fiction that they said they would. Yeah, weird stuff.

881
00:47:37,239 --> 00:47:42,080
Speaker 2: At least that's less manipulative. It's just being afraid of confrontation.

882
00:47:42,200 --> 00:47:43,399
Speaker 1: I guess that's right.

883
00:47:43,880 --> 00:47:46,080
Speaker 2: Since Chuck just said that's right, I think it's time

884
00:47:46,080 --> 00:47:46,839
Speaker 2: for listener mail.

885
00:47:51,480 --> 00:47:55,439
Speaker 1: This is about libraries a little bit more. Hey, guys.

886
00:47:55,440 --> 00:47:58,160
Speaker 1: As you mentioned in the recent short stuff on alt libraries,

887
00:48:00,000 --> 00:48:01,800
Speaker 1: I wanted to mention this. In nineteen oh one, Andrew

888
00:48:01,800 --> 00:48:04,399
Speaker 1: Carnegie funded the construction of dozens of libraries and all

889
00:48:04,400 --> 00:48:07,160
Speaker 1: five boroughs of New York City, and most of these

890
00:48:07,200 --> 00:48:10,160
Speaker 1: buildings came with a family apartment which housed the custodian

891
00:48:10,160 --> 00:48:13,560
Speaker 1: who kept the coal fire burning the furnace. As the

892
00:48:13,600 --> 00:48:16,960
Speaker 1: furnaces were replaced in the custodians retired, the apartment sat empty.

893
00:48:17,320 --> 00:48:19,279
Speaker 1: Some of the apartments are still intact, while some have

894
00:48:19,280 --> 00:48:23,120
Speaker 1: been converted into storage, mechanical rooms, or as is the

895
00:48:23,160 --> 00:48:25,920
Speaker 1: case in the library where I work at teen Center.

896
00:48:26,480 --> 00:48:28,200
Speaker 1: I thought you might be interested in this little slice

897
00:48:28,200 --> 00:48:30,319
Speaker 1: of New York City and library history. There are about

898
00:48:30,320 --> 00:48:34,400
Speaker 1: thirty Carnegie branches left in Manhattan, the Bronx and Staten Island,

899
00:48:34,400 --> 00:48:37,200
Speaker 1: and the city is slowly working their way through renovations

900
00:48:37,239 --> 00:48:40,160
Speaker 1: to modernize each location. Next time you're in New York,

901
00:48:40,280 --> 00:48:45,360
Speaker 1: come check us out wrap spanked delivered. I'm yours. That

902
00:48:45,480 --> 00:48:49,840
Speaker 1: is Madeleine Lovegrove, the children's librarian at the one hundred

903
00:48:49,880 --> 00:48:52,080
Speaker 1: and twenty fifth Street New York Public Library.

904
00:48:52,160 --> 00:48:55,439
Speaker 2: That's awesome, thanks a lot, Madeline. That I had never

905
00:48:55,480 --> 00:48:57,520
Speaker 2: heard of that, and I would really love to see

906
00:48:57,719 --> 00:49:01,400
Speaker 2: some of those abandoned apartment that we're just left as is.

907
00:49:01,920 --> 00:49:03,960
Speaker 1: She sent a link and it had pictures.

908
00:49:04,120 --> 00:49:06,160
Speaker 2: My friend, Oh, I can't wait to see that. Thank

909
00:49:06,200 --> 00:49:08,279
Speaker 2: you for telling me that. Check and thank you again

910
00:49:08,320 --> 00:49:10,359
Speaker 2: to Madeline. If you want to be like Madeline and

911
00:49:10,400 --> 00:49:13,440
Speaker 2: send us an email the exact proper way you can

912
00:49:13,480 --> 00:49:16,439
Speaker 2: do that, send it off to Stuff Podcasts at iHeartRadio

913
00:49:16,520 --> 00:49:22,680
Speaker 2: dot com. Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio.

914
00:49:23,160 --> 00:49:26,400
Speaker 1: For more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

915
00:49:26,560 --> 00:49:29,480
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.