WEBVTT - Ep. 7: Charles Post 0:00:01.040 --> 0:00:07.360 Hey, everybody, welcome the episode number seven of the un Collective. 0:00:07.800 --> 0:00:10.879 Once again, I've been O'Brien, and today I am joined 0:00:10.920 --> 0:00:15.680 by Charles Post. I don't know what you really say 0:00:15.720 --> 0:00:18.040 about Charles Post other than he's not the normal hunter. 0:00:18.200 --> 0:00:22.279 He's not the normal hunting industry professional. He's a u. C. 0:00:22.440 --> 0:00:30.960 Berkeley training ecologist, storyteller, filmmaker and author, scientist, somebody who 0:00:30.960 --> 0:00:35.920 studies the natural world, who studies animals and understands how 0:00:35.960 --> 0:00:39.400 they work and how we can all better them. But 0:00:39.440 --> 0:00:42.840 he also goes hunting too. He's not he's not a 0:00:42.880 --> 0:00:45.120 complete rookie in the game. He lives in Bozeman, Montana. 0:00:45.560 --> 0:00:49.159 He works with Sitka. He works as a editor for 0:00:49.320 --> 0:00:54.760 the new magazine Modern Huntsman. He's really becoming a pretty 0:00:54.760 --> 0:00:57.720 important voice in the hunting world from his purchase as 0:00:57.760 --> 0:01:01.040 somebody who has a lot of science his knowledge of 0:01:00.880 --> 0:01:04.800 the outside world. So it was a fun conversation with Charles. 0:01:05.800 --> 0:01:08.800 He is enlightened in a lot of ways that I 0:01:08.880 --> 0:01:11.160 am not, So it was fun to talk to him 0:01:11.160 --> 0:01:12.960 about some of his philosophies and how he came up 0:01:13.720 --> 0:01:18.600 about conservation, about conservation history, about the outdoor recreation community, 0:01:18.600 --> 0:01:21.119 and their relationship with hunters, and then it's just about 0:01:21.120 --> 0:01:26.320 how we think about our pursuits going outside. So hopefully 0:01:26.360 --> 0:01:28.480 this is another great conversation that you will enjoy. Is 0:01:28.520 --> 0:01:31.440 a part of this grander scheme of the Hunting collect 0:01:32.600 --> 0:01:46.880 Episode number seven on tap Enjoy, Charles, how's it going good? 0:01:47.240 --> 0:01:49.840 I always like to start this thing out by describing 0:01:49.880 --> 0:01:52.240 where I am, or where we are, or where you are. 0:01:52.360 --> 0:01:55.120 But in this case, I am in sunny Austin, Texas, 0:01:55.200 --> 0:01:57.960 and I imagine you are in less sunny Bozeman. Is 0:01:58.000 --> 0:02:01.600 that right? That's pretty close to it. It's spring actually 0:02:01.600 --> 0:02:06.080 showed up here probably about two weeks ago, so it's sunny. 0:02:06.160 --> 0:02:09.080 It's there's more sun, which is nice. It's been a cold, 0:02:09.240 --> 0:02:12.640 dark winter. Yeah, what what is that? I mean, there 0:02:12.800 --> 0:02:15.120 is barely any winter here. If it's thirty two degrees 0:02:15.160 --> 0:02:20.200 in Austin, they shut the schools down. How you enjoying 0:02:20.280 --> 0:02:26.000 the Montana winter? The Montana Winner has been awesome. I 0:02:26.080 --> 0:02:30.120 really I think I've fallen more in love with the 0:02:30.200 --> 0:02:33.079 season as it kind of marched on. It's that they 0:02:33.120 --> 0:02:36.240 say it's one of the harshest winners in the last 0:02:36.240 --> 0:02:38.440 twenty years, so we've had quite a bit of snow. 0:02:38.919 --> 0:02:43.800 It started really falling in September, and it's snow to 0:02:43.840 --> 0:02:47.000 two or three days ago, so it's definitely still here. 0:02:47.040 --> 0:02:49.880 And everybody who grew up in in Bozeman talks about 0:02:49.919 --> 0:02:53.079 these these false springs. You know, you you pull your 0:02:53.440 --> 0:02:56.000 your shorts and your running shoes out, and then you 0:02:56.040 --> 0:02:58.880 get a few days of sun and you kind of 0:02:58.880 --> 0:03:00.720 get tricked into thinking and is gonna warm up? And 0:03:00.720 --> 0:03:03.760 then it snows again for a week. So I'm trying 0:03:03.760 --> 0:03:06.960 not to uh look too far ahead down the calendar, 0:03:07.040 --> 0:03:09.920 but the few days of sun and forty three weather, 0:03:09.960 --> 0:03:13.359 I've been a really nice reprieve and um, but yeah, 0:03:13.360 --> 0:03:15.400 it's been awesome. You know, I grew up in northern California, 0:03:15.480 --> 0:03:18.040 so I haven't this is my first year living in 0:03:18.960 --> 0:03:22.440 a proper snowy, snowy environment, and uh that was my Yeah, 0:03:22.560 --> 0:03:25.200 that was my next line of thought was you're in 0:03:25.280 --> 0:03:28.240 a coologist that grew up in California and this is 0:03:28.320 --> 0:03:34.720 you're and you're bearing the Montana winter. Yeah it's um, 0:03:34.760 --> 0:03:37.040 it's been different. You know. One of the things that 0:03:37.960 --> 0:03:41.680 I love about California, Northern California in particular, is that 0:03:43.240 --> 0:03:46.040 I can go walk through most of the ecosystems and 0:03:46.080 --> 0:03:49.040 have a pretty good understanding of when I'm looking at, 0:03:49.080 --> 0:03:51.920 you know, the plants and animals and the geology, and 0:03:52.320 --> 0:03:54.120 you know, I just I spent a lot of my 0:03:54.160 --> 0:03:57.240 life out there getting familiar with those places. So it's 0:03:57.240 --> 0:04:00.760 been really fun coming to Montana and not only having 0:04:00.800 --> 0:04:04.600 to you know, learn a whole suite of new plants 0:04:04.600 --> 0:04:06.760 and animals, but also, yeah, I just kind of seeing 0:04:06.760 --> 0:04:11.080 how the seasons progress, and I really I really love 0:04:11.240 --> 0:04:14.720 the really distinct seasons. You know, Fall has a real 0:04:14.840 --> 0:04:19.520 distinct feeling, and winter certainly does, and spring you get 0:04:19.520 --> 0:04:23.400 this kind of incredible proliferation of flowers, which you know, 0:04:23.839 --> 0:04:26.600 mostly new flowers, you know for me, and and then 0:04:26.640 --> 0:04:29.839 summers just you know, a whole different experience because there's 0:04:29.880 --> 0:04:32.200 no ocean, so you know, you're trying to find a 0:04:32.320 --> 0:04:35.920 river a lake to cool offen. Um. But yeah, no, 0:04:36.000 --> 0:04:37.800 it's been it's been wonderful. I mean, one of the 0:04:37.839 --> 0:04:41.520 greatest things about Montana just how much wildlife there is. Um. Yeah, 0:04:41.560 --> 0:04:44.800 that's for sure. So I've been enjoying that. I was 0:04:45.279 --> 0:04:48.559 reading a little bit about your background and know of 0:04:48.560 --> 0:04:52.000 of your work a good bit and the first thing 0:04:52.040 --> 0:04:55.120 that came to my mind was what was it like 0:04:55.279 --> 0:05:00.159 to study ecology at u C. Berkeley, Because I just 0:05:00.240 --> 0:05:02.880 I've been listening to a lot of different podcasts and 0:05:03.160 --> 0:05:06.039 hearing a lot about how, you know, what the tenor 0:05:06.160 --> 0:05:08.080 is now in these college campuses and how it is 0:05:08.920 --> 0:05:11.320 changed a lot. But but studying what you did at 0:05:11.320 --> 0:05:13.240 the place that you did, I'd just be interested to know, 0:05:13.800 --> 0:05:16.000 as someone who's never been to that area the world's 0:05:16.040 --> 0:05:19.600 like to study what you studied at you see Berkeley, Yeah, 0:05:19.640 --> 0:05:22.880 you know, you see Berkeley is a pretty pretty awesome 0:05:22.880 --> 0:05:26.240 place to to study ecology for a few reasons, and 0:05:26.839 --> 0:05:29.919 one is that the the university was founded as a 0:05:29.920 --> 0:05:32.839 as a land grant university, so you know, some of 0:05:32.839 --> 0:05:37.080 the first kind of areas of focus were grazing and 0:05:37.200 --> 0:05:41.320 forestry and and resource management. So there's definitely a pretty rich, 0:05:42.640 --> 0:05:47.279 pretty much history of of of yeah, that type of research, 0:05:47.360 --> 0:05:51.440 and some really uh celebrated people came out of Berkeley, 0:05:51.480 --> 0:05:55.480 like Joseph Cornell and Luna Leopold out of Leopold's son, 0:05:56.440 --> 0:05:58.359 So it was it was awesome because I was I 0:05:58.440 --> 0:06:02.080 was being by people who had learned from some of 0:06:02.080 --> 0:06:07.039 the kind of forefathers of wildlife, ecology and conservation you 0:06:07.080 --> 0:06:09.479 know today or when I was there, and you know 0:06:09.520 --> 0:06:13.360 the ten I finished undergraduate there in two thousand and fifteen, 0:06:13.400 --> 0:06:16.560 I finished graduate school there. It's changed a lot, you know, 0:06:16.600 --> 0:06:19.320 the barrier has a ton of people, but there's still 0:06:19.360 --> 0:06:23.640 that kind of undercurrent of of conservation, you know, history, 0:06:23.720 --> 0:06:26.240 that's that's that's kind of peppered throughout some of the buildings, 0:06:26.240 --> 0:06:29.400 and uh, some of the old time professors are still there. 0:06:29.520 --> 0:06:33.080 So yeah, it was it was perfect for me. You know, 0:06:33.120 --> 0:06:35.320 I grew up just about an hour west of there, 0:06:36.360 --> 0:06:39.080 UM where there's a lot of open space. You know, 0:06:39.120 --> 0:06:46.039 you have the fair Lands National Marine Refuge. It's like, yeah, 0:06:46.120 --> 0:06:48.880 right off shore, you have Point Raised National Seashore and 0:06:49.640 --> 0:06:51.680 there's all this public land. So it was a nice 0:06:51.720 --> 0:06:56.920 like juxtaposition of of kind of this semi urban campus experience, 0:06:57.240 --> 0:07:01.560 you know, and then a lot of open space nearby UM. 0:07:01.560 --> 0:07:04.279 And I think, you know, generally the ecology department there 0:07:04.360 --> 0:07:06.200 is considered one of the top ones in the country, 0:07:06.320 --> 0:07:09.760 especially amongst the public schools. So one of the things 0:07:09.840 --> 0:07:13.320 I loved about it was that I was rubbing shoulders 0:07:13.320 --> 0:07:17.320 with with kids and peers from all over the world. Um. 0:07:17.360 --> 0:07:23.360 And I was exposed to so many different perspectives and topics, 0:07:23.400 --> 0:07:28.280 and you know, it was a really transformative experience because 0:07:28.600 --> 0:07:30.520 you know, you look at the courses that are available 0:07:30.520 --> 0:07:33.320 in any given semester and you could learn about honey 0:07:33.360 --> 0:07:36.680 bees from one of the best honeybee experts, or wildlife 0:07:36.680 --> 0:07:39.800 biology from a you know, really celebrated wildlife biologists, and 0:07:39.960 --> 0:07:42.280 you know, and you could really go down these rabbit holes, 0:07:42.960 --> 0:07:48.360 which is a young kind of hungry student. It's just 0:07:48.400 --> 0:07:50.880 there's nothing better than having options and and feeling like 0:07:51.480 --> 0:07:54.240 if you if you something sparks your curiosity, there's a 0:07:54.280 --> 0:07:58.160 place to go run with it. Um. Yeah. And it 0:07:58.240 --> 0:08:01.320 was you know, it was there that I fell in 0:08:01.360 --> 0:08:05.200 love with science and also realized that that you could 0:08:05.280 --> 0:08:07.920 make a living being a scientist. You know, that's you 0:08:08.280 --> 0:08:10.360 think about like bring your parents to school day when 0:08:10.360 --> 0:08:13.600 you're an elementary school and I don't know about you, 0:08:14.160 --> 0:08:17.960 but there were no ecologist dads or moms that that 0:08:18.040 --> 0:08:22.160 came in. Um. So yeah. So it's kind of one 0:08:22.200 --> 0:08:25.360 of those things where you know, I think a college 0:08:25.400 --> 0:08:29.040 or a good mentor a good professor, they kind of 0:08:29.080 --> 0:08:32.600 impress upon you that idea that it is a career. 0:08:33.160 --> 0:08:36.520 And I think what kind of hooked me was a 0:08:36.600 --> 0:08:41.200 certain presentation where this you know, it was it was 0:08:41.240 --> 0:08:43.280 the first day of school and it was a fish 0:08:43.440 --> 0:08:47.440 ecology course and this professor named Stephanie Carlson walked in 0:08:47.520 --> 0:08:49.440 and she was probably in her early thirties at the time, 0:08:50.360 --> 0:08:57.440 and she was just so passionate, so energetic, so just relatable. 0:08:57.720 --> 0:09:00.160 You know, sometimes there's there's a there's a better fit 0:09:00.240 --> 0:09:02.880 to being that kind of old seasoned scientists, and there's 0:09:02.880 --> 0:09:05.920 something to be said for those young kind of yeah, 0:09:06.040 --> 0:09:08.880 energetic scientists, and and she was. She was the ladder. 0:09:09.120 --> 0:09:13.600 And she showed us some pictures of her graduate research 0:09:13.640 --> 0:09:15.640 where she was with a bunch of young people in 0:09:15.679 --> 0:09:20.200 Alaska studying salmon, and she explained how you can live 0:09:20.240 --> 0:09:24.040 at research stations and conduct this research, and you know, 0:09:24.120 --> 0:09:26.480 kind of the light bulbon off, and I realized that 0:09:27.200 --> 0:09:29.880 you could actually make a career basically just walking around 0:09:30.800 --> 0:09:33.960 the woods, are you know, any ecosystem with the clipboard 0:09:33.960 --> 0:09:37.800 and binoculars and and study these places and and make 0:09:37.840 --> 0:09:41.120 a living out of it. So I think Berkeley, Yeah, 0:09:41.520 --> 0:09:45.840 that it planted that seed. So yeah, you're a professional 0:09:45.920 --> 0:09:51.480 hunter without any without any weaponry. Yeah, I mean our tools, Yeah, 0:09:51.559 --> 0:09:53.880 like a pencil and binoculars and some write in the 0:09:53.920 --> 0:09:58.160 rain notebooks. Um yeah, what are the major like I 0:09:58.200 --> 0:10:01.080 know you go through is many years studying as you 0:10:01.280 --> 0:10:06.160 as you did there, Um, what are the major philosophies 0:10:06.160 --> 0:10:08.200 that you came out of of that with when it 0:10:08.320 --> 0:10:11.800 in regards to wild life and you know, our cohabitation 0:10:11.920 --> 0:10:14.040 and some of the things, you know we talked about 0:10:14.080 --> 0:10:16.079 in the hunting world. Where their philosophies that you carried 0:10:16.080 --> 0:10:18.200 out of there that have that have really stuck with 0:10:18.240 --> 0:10:20.880 you or that that you think people should should know 0:10:21.160 --> 0:10:24.600 from from that time. Yeah, I think you know, as 0:10:24.600 --> 0:10:29.040 an undergrad, I think I kinda fell in love with 0:10:29.040 --> 0:10:32.079 with with science, and then as a graduate student at 0:10:32.160 --> 0:10:34.400 UC Berkeley, working with a lot of the same professors, 0:10:34.440 --> 0:10:39.559 I really developed kind of the the staples for being 0:10:39.559 --> 0:10:42.000 a good scientist. And when you talked about philosophy, one 0:10:42.000 --> 0:10:45.120 of the things that my graduate advisor, her name's Dr 0:10:45.200 --> 0:10:50.520 Mary Power, she impressed, you know, upon the importance of 0:10:51.600 --> 0:10:56.920 collecting notes and making observations and growing up you know, 0:10:57.000 --> 0:11:01.680 surfing and kind of spending time outside at it. It 0:11:01.760 --> 0:11:05.080 kind of added another layer to that experience. Because she 0:11:05.160 --> 0:11:07.040 taught us, and I came to realize that if you 0:11:07.120 --> 0:11:10.640 really want to be a good ecologist, you need to 0:11:10.760 --> 0:11:16.520 master the craft of observing and taking notes and noticing 0:11:16.600 --> 0:11:20.440 trends and then figuring out ways to put numbers to 0:11:20.520 --> 0:11:24.400 those observations so you can use math to predict or 0:11:24.520 --> 0:11:29.640 understand you know more about them. And for a few years, 0:11:29.880 --> 0:11:32.280 as when I was working as a as a field 0:11:32.280 --> 0:11:34.960 scientist and a graduate school, I mean, we're taking notes 0:11:35.040 --> 0:11:38.839 every day throughout the day, and it's something that I 0:11:38.880 --> 0:11:41.000 think is really shaped the way I see the world 0:11:41.000 --> 0:11:43.640 today and shaped a lot of the ways that I 0:11:43.679 --> 0:11:47.720 approach you know, storytelling or different topics and conservation the outdoors, 0:11:47.760 --> 0:11:55.880 because so often people qualify your time outside by miles hiked, 0:11:56.760 --> 0:12:01.840 days spent camping, or you know, distance climbed or speed 0:12:02.200 --> 0:12:07.160 you know over which you covered ground, And in science, 0:12:08.080 --> 0:12:12.439 the metric of success is how well you observes a place, 0:12:12.760 --> 0:12:15.760 how well you understand a place, And I think there's 0:12:15.800 --> 0:12:19.120 just such a huge difference between being a speed hiker 0:12:19.520 --> 0:12:23.640 or you know, climb up a mountain really quickly and 0:12:24.559 --> 0:12:27.320 really knowing that place, knowing the rhythms of the place, 0:12:28.280 --> 0:12:32.319 understanding the patterns and the discrepancies that make a place unique. 0:12:33.720 --> 0:12:36.520 So I think that philosophy is really just to be 0:12:36.600 --> 0:12:40.160 an observer, and I learned that early on, and I 0:12:40.200 --> 0:12:42.400 think that's become kind of a north star of sorts 0:12:42.440 --> 0:12:46.400 as of kind of moved along in time. That's interesting 0:12:46.520 --> 0:12:50.160 that I find that, you know, I don't often go 0:12:50.240 --> 0:12:54.560 outside with the clipboard, um pen or anything like that, 0:12:54.679 --> 0:12:57.320 but sometimes I wish I did. In fact, a lot 0:12:57.400 --> 0:12:59.600 of times I wish I did, because there's just things 0:12:59.600 --> 0:13:02.960 that you s maybe you don't understand even in the moment, 0:13:03.080 --> 0:13:06.719 that that strike you as odd or strike you is compelling, 0:13:06.760 --> 0:13:08.920 that you may if you're hunting, you may walk right 0:13:08.920 --> 0:13:13.040 past that seen or that that animal, or that you know, 0:13:13.120 --> 0:13:15.640 whatever is happening there that that you would you may 0:13:15.640 --> 0:13:18.559 look further into as in a collegist, but as a 0:13:19.320 --> 0:13:21.800 really anybody going outside or even as a hunter, you 0:13:21.880 --> 0:13:25.240 walk right past because you're tunnel focused on on your 0:13:25.320 --> 0:13:29.000 end goal. Um is there, you know, as you become 0:13:29.040 --> 0:13:31.960 We'll get into a little bit of your your hunting 0:13:32.000 --> 0:13:34.640 life later and how kind of how things have gone recently. 0:13:34.679 --> 0:13:39.720 But have you any advice for any for for hunters 0:13:39.760 --> 0:13:42.000 or folks that might be listening to anybody on how 0:13:42.040 --> 0:13:45.480 to really nail down your observations in the outside world 0:13:45.480 --> 0:13:48.520 and make them connect. Yeah. I mean one of the 0:13:48.559 --> 0:13:51.640 things when I was in grad school, um, I was 0:13:51.720 --> 0:13:55.320 teaching a field biology course for a few years, and 0:13:55.360 --> 0:13:57.120 one of the things that always do with my students. 0:13:57.200 --> 0:14:01.240 Most of them were freshmen or sophomore. A lot of 0:14:01.280 --> 0:14:04.800 them are premed, so they hadn't actually, uh, you know, 0:14:05.320 --> 0:14:09.000 taking an ecology course. This is generally their first time 0:14:09.040 --> 0:14:12.000 really getting out in the field. And what I would 0:14:12.000 --> 0:14:15.640 always do is bring them out into a you know, 0:14:15.800 --> 0:14:19.360 a wild setting or you know, somewhere kind of away 0:14:19.440 --> 0:14:21.800 from traffic, and you know, we'd go on a hike 0:14:21.880 --> 0:14:23.600 or go out to some of the regional parks up 0:14:23.600 --> 0:14:27.800 in the Berkeley Hills, and I would just kind of 0:14:27.840 --> 0:14:30.480 put them out there and say, sit down for fifteen 0:14:30.520 --> 0:14:34.040 minutes and just listen. Just sit against a tree and 0:14:34.080 --> 0:14:39.800 just observe. And it's amazing how much you can glean 0:14:39.920 --> 0:14:44.480 from a place by just actually shutting off the outside 0:14:44.480 --> 0:14:47.120 world and focusing on what you hear and what you 0:14:47.200 --> 0:14:52.720 see and those little subtleties, and to see them come back. 0:14:52.760 --> 0:14:54.440 We'd sit in a circle and everybody kind of share 0:14:54.440 --> 0:14:59.680 their observation. I think when you hear fifteen people's unique 0:14:59.720 --> 0:15:02.960 obs rations about one place, you start to realize how 0:15:03.000 --> 0:15:06.200 much you miss. When you're running through a place or 0:15:06.400 --> 0:15:09.480 just focused on one thing, whether it's your bird watching, 0:15:09.480 --> 0:15:12.000 you're you're looking for sheds, or you're looking for elk, 0:15:12.560 --> 0:15:14.920 you know, you miss so many other little bits and 0:15:14.960 --> 0:15:19.160 pieces that make up the ecosystem. And I think for 0:15:19.480 --> 0:15:23.120 you know, hunters, or you know, anybody listening, you know, 0:15:23.160 --> 0:15:25.880 one of the things that that maybe they already do. 0:15:26.240 --> 0:15:28.400 But what I would suggest is, you know, go to 0:15:28.440 --> 0:15:31.360 the places that you love and bring a pair of 0:15:31.360 --> 0:15:35.720 binoculars and and really just sit and look for everything 0:15:35.840 --> 0:15:39.240 but elk, or look for everything but dear, and start 0:15:39.280 --> 0:15:43.720 to piece together the kind of missing threads that make 0:15:43.800 --> 0:15:46.800 that place that you love so much and and are 0:15:46.880 --> 0:15:51.280 drawn to, you know, all the more relatable. And you 0:15:51.280 --> 0:15:56.480 know what my advisor told me, Mary Powers, that you know, 0:15:56.520 --> 0:15:59.400 in thirty years of observing a place, you can really 0:15:59.400 --> 0:16:03.760 start to understand how it changes, or how it how 0:16:03.800 --> 0:16:08.120 it moves through time, through the seasons. And you know 0:16:08.160 --> 0:16:10.240 what supports that idea is that if you look at 0:16:10.280 --> 0:16:13.280 all the science papers out there the ones that are 0:16:13.320 --> 0:16:18.320 really informing us about how our planets changing, or how 0:16:19.160 --> 0:16:23.200 a place has changed from development or from some sort 0:16:23.240 --> 0:16:26.560 of policy or management. Are these ten twenty thirty year 0:16:26.640 --> 0:16:29.880 data sets? You know, you're not gonna there's there's no 0:16:29.960 --> 0:16:32.400 science papers out there that are changing the way we 0:16:32.480 --> 0:16:35.080 understand the world with two years of data or three 0:16:35.160 --> 0:16:39.960 years of data. You know, these are ten decade long 0:16:40.200 --> 0:16:42.760 data sets. And when you have that much data, then 0:16:42.800 --> 0:16:44.840 you can really start to see something clearly. And I 0:16:44.880 --> 0:16:51.280 think just applying you know, that simple you know, act 0:16:51.320 --> 0:16:57.160 of observing regularly over time just will help you become 0:16:57.200 --> 0:17:00.360 more familiar with the place and you know, allow you 0:17:00.400 --> 0:17:04.479 to better understand how animals are changing, your trails are changing, 0:17:04.600 --> 0:17:08.360 or have vegetations changing, which might then inform the way 0:17:08.400 --> 0:17:12.840 that you move about the land or or pursue certain animals, 0:17:12.920 --> 0:17:15.640 or or just kind of you know, how you experienced 0:17:15.720 --> 0:17:19.640 that place. Um, you know, and binoculars obviously a lot 0:17:19.680 --> 0:17:22.800 of you know, most hunters have a good pair of binoculars. 0:17:22.800 --> 0:17:27.480 But another thing that I've done, which is super nerdy 0:17:27.560 --> 0:17:29.560 and probably people will laugh at when they hear me 0:17:29.600 --> 0:17:31.720 say this out loud, but I'm totally up for it. 0:17:32.320 --> 0:17:35.960 Um is you know, get like a little zoom mike, 0:17:36.600 --> 0:17:39.480 you know, just like a little recorder, plug in your 0:17:39.480 --> 0:17:42.280 headphones and turn up the volume and go out in 0:17:42.280 --> 0:17:44.359 the woods and just turn up the volume. And you 0:17:44.400 --> 0:17:48.200 can hear so much that you never would have heard 0:17:48.280 --> 0:17:50.919 because our ears just don't pick it up. You know, 0:17:51.040 --> 0:17:53.959 the super high and the super low sounds that our 0:17:54.040 --> 0:17:58.280 ears can't you know, literally are not able to pick up, 0:17:58.800 --> 0:18:01.480 you will hear. And it just adds this incredibly rich 0:18:01.640 --> 0:18:06.800 kind of layer to a place. Um. Yeah, people might 0:18:06.800 --> 0:18:08.560 make fun of you for walking around the forest with 0:18:09.119 --> 0:18:13.400 phones and a little record. Man, you're describing very very 0:18:13.520 --> 0:18:18.440 hippie ideas. Here a circle describe describe what you see 0:18:19.560 --> 0:18:22.000 hold up for a quarter. But I I would be 0:18:22.040 --> 0:18:24.439 totally down for that. And a good example of that 0:18:24.560 --> 0:18:27.280 is sitting in a turkey blind in Florida a couple 0:18:27.280 --> 0:18:30.080 of days ago. Well, we had a couple of rookie 0:18:30.160 --> 0:18:33.560 hunters in there, and um, they kind of wouldn't shut 0:18:33.600 --> 0:18:36.600 up the whole time, and I had to tell him, hey, 0:18:36.640 --> 0:18:39.200 listen and here's what to listen for as a turkey hunter. 0:18:39.240 --> 0:18:42.080 Listen for an owl, listen for a crow, and listen 0:18:42.080 --> 0:18:46.000 for thunder. I mean, these are things that all might 0:18:46.119 --> 0:18:48.600 end in a turkey gobble, and even just that small 0:18:49.960 --> 0:18:52.560 realization to them that if you listen, you might not 0:18:52.680 --> 0:18:55.680 hear a gobble every time, but you might understand what 0:18:55.680 --> 0:18:59.119 what evokes a gobble, or what proceeds one or what 0:18:59.160 --> 0:19:02.520 follows wanted understand what it all means a little bit more, 0:19:02.760 --> 0:19:05.920 or just observing a hen with a lone hen walking 0:19:05.960 --> 0:19:08.119 around a food plot, I can tell you a lot 0:19:08.160 --> 0:19:12.879 about turkeys and their mannerisms. Yeah, you're exactly right, and 0:19:12.960 --> 0:19:15.240 that that was just a bunch of hunters. I wondered 0:19:15.280 --> 0:19:17.840 how much I would know about crow behavior, our behavior 0:19:17.880 --> 0:19:20.080 in the turkey woods if it wasn't for turkeys. But 0:19:20.160 --> 0:19:22.439 I certainly know as much as as anybody would know 0:19:22.920 --> 0:19:25.520 about how that would relate to turkeys. Maybe not the 0:19:25.640 --> 0:19:29.720 entire ecosystem, but but it's a start. Yeah, And I 0:19:29.720 --> 0:19:31.480 think that's you know, so much of it. There's a 0:19:31.600 --> 0:19:33.800 there's a book that really inspired me called The Great 0:19:33.800 --> 0:19:38.159 Animal Orchestra by a guy named Bernie Krauss, highly recommended, 0:19:38.200 --> 0:19:40.639 and it's all about the ecology of sound and what 0:19:41.560 --> 0:19:45.240 he argues, which I believe, and I think the science 0:19:45.240 --> 0:19:48.920 community at large is is accepting, is that we can 0:19:48.960 --> 0:19:51.880 go do a walk through a forest with a bunch 0:19:51.880 --> 0:19:53.960 of biologists, right and you know, you have a bird 0:19:53.960 --> 0:19:57.960 biologist and a tree biologists, and you know somebody who's 0:19:58.000 --> 0:20:02.240 a specialist on mammals, and we can get our clipboards 0:20:02.240 --> 0:20:04.480 and make our observations and and do our best to 0:20:04.480 --> 0:20:08.680 do a survey of the wildlife and the vegetative community, 0:20:08.840 --> 0:20:11.560 and we'll come back and collect that data. You can 0:20:11.600 --> 0:20:18.320 then go through that same ecosystem with precise audio equipment 0:20:19.680 --> 0:20:21.919 and you will pick up so much more than our 0:20:21.960 --> 0:20:24.720 eyes ever will. So what he presents in this book 0:20:24.880 --> 0:20:28.080 is this idea that for example, a case study he 0:20:28.160 --> 0:20:31.400 uses is that you know, sometimes people will come into 0:20:31.400 --> 0:20:33.360 a forest and say, we're gonna do selective logging. We're 0:20:33.359 --> 0:20:36.080 gonna pull fifteen trees out of this place, and it's 0:20:36.119 --> 0:20:38.920 not going to have any impact, will be supersensitive. We'll 0:20:38.920 --> 0:20:40.720 do it in this way, in that way to ensure 0:20:40.800 --> 0:20:44.560 that you know that the community at large is protected. 0:20:45.440 --> 0:20:49.639 And he has amazing before and after audio data. You know, 0:20:49.680 --> 0:20:53.920 if you look at a an acoustic sonograph and you 0:20:53.960 --> 0:20:56.719 can see all the different calls of all the different birds, 0:20:57.560 --> 0:21:00.359 you can actually visually, there might be no difference. You 0:21:00.400 --> 0:21:05.320 look at that that soundscape, and there's a really distinct difference. UM. 0:21:05.440 --> 0:21:07.520 So it's kind of interesting because you know, eyes only 0:21:07.520 --> 0:21:09.399 tell us so much, but like you're saying, our ears 0:21:09.440 --> 0:21:11.639 are such a big part of that as well. You know, 0:21:11.680 --> 0:21:14.400 there's a lot of things you'll never you'll never see, 0:21:14.480 --> 0:21:17.320 but you'll hear. And he points out, you know, maybe 0:21:17.320 --> 0:21:20.280 we should listen more closely, um, if we really hope 0:21:20.280 --> 0:21:22.560 to understand how these ecosystems are changing or how we're 0:21:22.560 --> 0:21:28.520 affecting them. But it's pretty cool book, it's a great point. 0:21:28.520 --> 0:21:31.359 We'll check that out. Um. As you're talking, I was 0:21:31.400 --> 0:21:34.760 just thinking about your point about thirty years of data 0:21:34.840 --> 0:21:40.119 really having a total taring, like a total effect on 0:21:40.160 --> 0:21:43.000 how we think, Like we're not we can't really make 0:21:43.040 --> 0:21:46.720 any decisions or assumptions about how we affect the natural 0:21:46.760 --> 0:21:49.960 world in such a short time. And you think about 0:21:50.080 --> 0:21:53.000 the idea of conservation in America, it's not that old. 0:21:53.080 --> 0:21:56.160 I mean, it's three times thirty maybe, UM, a little 0:21:56.160 --> 0:21:58.159 bit more than that. I mean, at the turn of 0:21:58.160 --> 0:22:00.080 the century we really started to see those id he 0:22:00.160 --> 0:22:04.520 is codifying and becoming a thing. You know, what's your 0:22:04.560 --> 0:22:09.520 idea of of our model conservation and it's relatively young, 0:22:09.640 --> 0:22:13.120 the grand scheme of the natural world, And as an ecologist, 0:22:13.119 --> 0:22:17.080 do you look at the act differently or the plan differently, 0:22:17.160 --> 0:22:19.320 or the way that we have set this all up 0:22:19.320 --> 0:22:22.920 in North America or at least in the States. Yeah, 0:22:22.960 --> 0:22:24.679 it's a great question. I mean, I think, you know, 0:22:24.720 --> 0:22:28.880 one of the recurring thoughts to have about the North 0:22:28.920 --> 0:22:33.040 American model and conservation in general, is that we have 0:22:33.119 --> 0:22:38.840 to think about the landscape of conservation and the currency 0:22:38.880 --> 0:22:41.600 of conservation, and for better or for worse, if you're 0:22:41.640 --> 0:22:45.720 a scientist, your currency is publishing a paper, and a 0:22:45.760 --> 0:22:49.320 lot of papers rely on data sets that are collected 0:22:49.440 --> 0:22:52.919 over a PhD or a master's degree, or over a 0:22:52.960 --> 0:22:55.399 ten year which you know, maybe you work for a 0:22:55.440 --> 0:23:01.760 certain department for eight or ten years. Um. So the 0:23:01.800 --> 0:23:04.720 way that we're managing wildlife are oftentimes informed by these 0:23:04.720 --> 0:23:08.760 shorter data sets, which in some cases the best we 0:23:08.800 --> 0:23:12.280 can do. But I think it's important to to just 0:23:12.520 --> 0:23:16.919 keep in mind that if we're looking at a place 0:23:17.000 --> 0:23:21.159 and over the course of ten years, we might be 0:23:21.280 --> 0:23:25.360 missing a lot. And especially now with the way are 0:23:25.760 --> 0:23:28.679 you know, planets changing from development and different kind of 0:23:28.760 --> 0:23:35.400 human and influenced pressures. We can't forget that twenty years 0:23:35.400 --> 0:23:37.160 from now is going to be very different than twenty 0:23:37.240 --> 0:23:44.560 years ago. And instead of thinking about conservation or goals 0:23:44.600 --> 0:23:47.440 and a static sense you know, this is our goal 0:23:47.520 --> 0:23:50.320 and wants to accomplish it, we're good, you know, we 0:23:50.400 --> 0:23:53.840 need to, I think, look at conservation metrics in a 0:23:53.960 --> 0:23:55.760 very plastic way, you know, we need to look at 0:23:55.760 --> 0:23:58.639 them as benchmarks that have a plus or mindus, like 0:23:58.640 --> 0:24:02.000 a standard deviation, right, like the room to wiggle. Because 0:24:02.160 --> 0:24:06.320 the second we wrap our hearts and minds around a 0:24:07.040 --> 0:24:13.159 very static, singular goal, we basically lose sight of the 0:24:13.200 --> 0:24:17.960 fact that ecosystems change in time. They're constantly changing, whether 0:24:18.000 --> 0:24:22.440 it's succession or whether it's humans. You know, like a 0:24:23.119 --> 0:24:26.800 mountain range could be free of jeep roads today and 0:24:26.800 --> 0:24:28.480 in two years there's gonna be a jeep road going 0:24:28.520 --> 0:24:30.439 through it, and that's going to totally change the way 0:24:30.800 --> 0:24:34.000 wildlife move about the land and the way that our 0:24:34.040 --> 0:24:37.320 impact exists or doesn't exist on the land. So I 0:24:37.359 --> 0:24:39.840 think one of the things to consider, you know, when 0:24:39.920 --> 0:24:45.560 we talk about wildlife, we talk about um bag limits 0:24:45.680 --> 0:24:50.399 or or seasons is that ten years from now is 0:24:50.400 --> 0:24:52.760 gonna be very different than today. And I think it's just, yeah, 0:24:52.760 --> 0:24:57.200 it's important to to not only plan ahead and realize 0:24:57.240 --> 0:25:03.840 there's some unknown but also realized that conservation exists on 0:25:03.880 --> 0:25:06.840 a metric of of of good and could be better, 0:25:07.320 --> 0:25:09.080 you know, And I think it's always room to improve 0:25:10.280 --> 0:25:16.119 um and also that conservation. People will talk about conservation 0:25:16.160 --> 0:25:19.800 north America, are conservation in Canada? Are conservation in Africa. 0:25:20.280 --> 0:25:27.439 Conservation exists, in my opinion, on a specific place in 0:25:27.480 --> 0:25:32.520 a specific time, and oftentimes they're not comparable to one another. 0:25:32.760 --> 0:25:36.840 You know, Texas Conservations is inherently different than Idaho. Idaho 0:25:36.920 --> 0:25:39.520 is different than Alberta. Alberta is different than Kenya. Kenya 0:25:39.560 --> 0:25:43.000 is different than Zibabwe. So you see these headlines or 0:25:43.760 --> 0:25:48.120 some of these kind of you know, kind of far 0:25:48.240 --> 0:25:51.960 reaching assumptions or claims, and I think it just takes 0:25:51.960 --> 0:25:56.240 away from the beauty of science, right like or a 0:25:56.480 --> 0:25:59.520 or a wildlife manager. You know, these people are experts 0:25:59.520 --> 0:26:02.000 in their population, in their park, in their region, and 0:26:02.040 --> 0:26:06.000 they're part of the state um and the realities on 0:26:06.040 --> 0:26:09.359 the ground are all very different. So, you know, I 0:26:09.400 --> 0:26:13.080 think you can have these overarching models of conservation. But 0:26:13.119 --> 0:26:15.439 I think it's really important to consider that, you know, 0:26:16.240 --> 0:26:19.800 Eastern Montana is very different in Western Montana. Um and 0:26:19.880 --> 0:26:22.719 wildlife and conservation succession to be looked at through that 0:26:22.760 --> 0:26:26.520 particular lens. Yeah, I think that's important. And you know, 0:26:26.760 --> 0:26:31.280 in our model conservation, that's what they say states control 0:26:31.320 --> 0:26:34.680 the wildlife and and science controls the quotas and how 0:26:34.720 --> 0:26:38.200 we how we manage those things, which which always made 0:26:38.200 --> 0:26:40.879 a lot of sense to me, and I think inside 0:26:40.880 --> 0:26:42.880 of that model, the federal government plays a pretty good, 0:26:43.320 --> 0:26:46.240 pretty good role, one to to manage the funds that 0:26:46.280 --> 0:26:48.720 come from some of the resources that we put into it, 0:26:48.760 --> 0:26:50.840 but then also to manage our public lands and make 0:26:50.840 --> 0:26:53.879 sure those places are there for everybody, um in a 0:26:53.920 --> 0:26:56.480 way that that we know only they can. So that's 0:26:56.520 --> 0:27:00.119 those are those are good points. Do you imagine the 0:27:00.280 --> 0:27:04.439 term conservation will shift over time? I mean, really a 0:27:04.480 --> 0:27:06.240 good example I think it is probably the wild turkey 0:27:06.320 --> 0:27:08.280 or even the white tailed deer. I mean, the n 0:27:08.440 --> 0:27:11.280 w t F kind of came of age. National Turkey 0:27:11.320 --> 0:27:14.359 Federation came of age to save the turkey and save 0:27:14.400 --> 0:27:17.639 its habitat. And I think we could probably all agree 0:27:17.680 --> 0:27:21.800 that the turkeys fairly saved. They're they're everywhere. Uh, the 0:27:21.880 --> 0:27:24.200 same with the white tailed deer. The white tailed deers 0:27:24.680 --> 0:27:27.840 is needed saving at some point, now probably not so much, 0:27:28.240 --> 0:27:32.639 probably more needs managing the overall sense. Yeah, what do 0:27:32.640 --> 0:27:35.080 you imagine that those those things change over time and 0:27:35.320 --> 0:27:37.280 that maybe at some point in this in this country 0:27:37.640 --> 0:27:42.120 white tail deal will again be um in need of 0:27:42.119 --> 0:27:45.720 of saving or turkeys will be in need of saving, 0:27:45.760 --> 0:27:47.600 but they aren't currently. So how do you manage those 0:27:47.640 --> 0:27:51.359 ideas as they flow through time. It's a great question, 0:27:51.400 --> 0:27:52.879 I mean. And one of the things that you know, 0:27:52.960 --> 0:27:55.880 I think about is that there's never been more white 0:27:55.880 --> 0:27:59.000 tailed deer than there are today. And there's a lot 0:27:59.000 --> 0:28:02.160 of reasons for that. Uh. One is a lack of predators. 0:28:02.440 --> 0:28:05.480 One is the fact that are super flexible animal that 0:28:06.119 --> 0:28:12.840 can take advantage of you know, suburban or semi urban environments. Um. 0:28:12.880 --> 0:28:14.639 You know, So I think at white tailed deer and 0:28:14.680 --> 0:28:17.960 I think about the fact that they're kicking out mule 0:28:18.000 --> 0:28:21.840 deer in some systems. So when when do we get 0:28:21.880 --> 0:28:25.240 to a point where managers are forced to recognize that 0:28:25.960 --> 0:28:29.680 white tailed deer might be almost an invasive species where 0:28:29.720 --> 0:28:34.920 they're moving into a historically mule deer ecosystem, kicking them 0:28:34.920 --> 0:28:37.840 out just because we've kind of given them a leg 0:28:37.960 --> 0:28:42.360 up and a chance to do that. Um. And I think, 0:28:42.720 --> 0:28:46.640 you know, white tailed deer, we can manage them, can 0:28:46.680 --> 0:28:49.520 serve them. But I think there's a difference between managing 0:28:49.600 --> 0:28:54.600 for a species and managing for the ecosystem. And I 0:28:54.600 --> 0:29:00.160 think conservation hopefully will move more towards managing the ecosystem. 0:29:00.240 --> 0:29:04.920 You know, obviously, these these deer and turkey and elka 0:29:04.960 --> 0:29:07.640 would bring a lot of people out into nature to 0:29:07.720 --> 0:29:12.240 hunt them and pursue them and watch them and photograph them. 0:29:12.280 --> 0:29:16.640 But there's a fine line between managing for one species 0:29:16.640 --> 0:29:21.400 and managing for an ecosystem. And I think you know, 0:29:21.480 --> 0:29:23.200 with you know, we live in a time right now, 0:29:23.240 --> 0:29:26.600 it's the sixth mass extinction, but you know, there animals 0:29:26.640 --> 0:29:28.680 are going extinct a hundred to a thousand times faster 0:29:28.720 --> 0:29:32.240 than they would be naturally without humans, and we're losing 0:29:33.120 --> 0:29:36.160 you know, species across North America. You know, the monarch butterfly, 0:29:36.400 --> 0:29:40.640 you know that's imperiled. There's obviously not a community of 0:29:40.680 --> 0:29:43.600 diehard monarch stewards like there are for folks who are 0:29:43.600 --> 0:29:46.800 passionate about white tailed deer, but maybe that should be 0:29:46.840 --> 0:29:49.560 a metric for white tailed deer habitat. You know, if 0:29:49.600 --> 0:29:54.200 we want a healthy ecosystem to support healthy deer, we 0:29:54.240 --> 0:29:57.040 should be thinking about you know, the fish and the 0:29:57.080 --> 0:30:01.600 waterways and the butterflies and the song birds. And if 0:30:01.640 --> 0:30:05.480 we only manage whitetail deer, they might get to a 0:30:05.520 --> 0:30:10.080 point where they're over graze and repairing corridors, which doesn't 0:30:10.080 --> 0:30:16.640 help songbirds and insects that need those habitats to thrive. Um. 0:30:16.680 --> 0:30:20.760 You know. So I think the initial conservation mindset was like, 0:30:20.880 --> 0:30:24.760 let's save the white tail deer because they're being extirpated. 0:30:24.880 --> 0:30:28.240 Let's you know, save grizzly bearers because they've been extrapated. 0:30:28.320 --> 0:30:32.360 Let's save bighorn cheap because they're, you know, being extrapated. 0:30:32.400 --> 0:30:34.560 And I think today, I think we've done a pretty 0:30:34.560 --> 0:30:37.600 good job of establishing some of those seed populations and 0:30:37.720 --> 0:30:41.960 at least stabilizing some of the strongholds. Um. But the 0:30:42.080 --> 0:30:44.440 kind of animals on the periphrey plants and animals on 0:30:44.480 --> 0:30:47.719 the periphrey that don't have the the you know, Monerich 0:30:47.760 --> 0:30:52.600 Butterfly Foundation or the laz Light Bunting Foundation, you know, 0:30:53.120 --> 0:30:55.880 they need some love too, So I think that more foundations. 0:30:55.880 --> 0:31:02.280 You're telling me we need more foundations wildlife foundations, Oh gosh, 0:31:02.800 --> 0:31:05.360 it would I mean, selfishly, I think it'd be amazing 0:31:05.400 --> 0:31:08.920 if there were little communities of people passionate about, you know, 0:31:10.000 --> 0:31:14.240 all the kind of less charismatic flora and fauna. I mean, 0:31:14.240 --> 0:31:16.520 And there are you know, I mean American kestrals they're 0:31:16.560 --> 0:31:19.320 in decline, and there's I personally know people who are 0:31:19.360 --> 0:31:23.280 totally passionate about American kestrals, building nest box like the boring, 0:31:23.560 --> 0:31:29.120 the boring animal Society of America. Yeah, the boring animals 0:31:29.120 --> 0:31:30.560 to the masses. But you know, one of the things 0:31:30.600 --> 0:31:33.440 I always tell people is that and this, you know, 0:31:33.480 --> 0:31:36.600 I would argue this is this is true. Behind almost 0:31:36.720 --> 0:31:41.000 every species, plant or animal, there is a grad student, 0:31:41.200 --> 0:31:46.360 an undergrad, a scientist, a biologist, somebody out there who's 0:31:46.400 --> 0:31:50.160 dedicated their life and so much of their time to 0:31:50.360 --> 0:31:53.479 the preservation of that organism. Which gives me a lot 0:31:53.520 --> 0:31:56.440 of hope, you know, because when I was in grad school, 0:31:56.560 --> 0:31:59.280 I would go to a seminar, go have lunch with folks, 0:31:59.280 --> 0:32:01.600 and you'd sit down next to a kid who was 0:32:01.640 --> 0:32:04.360 obsessed about this certain species of allergy, and you'd sit 0:32:04.480 --> 0:32:07.479 next to a girl who was obsessed with this certain 0:32:07.520 --> 0:32:11.640 type of alpine flower, and you know, while there might 0:32:11.640 --> 0:32:14.520 not be a foundation for that alpine flower, there's definitely 0:32:14.560 --> 0:32:18.000 somebody who's pouring their heart and soul into that and 0:32:18.240 --> 0:32:22.360 that species preservation, which is a pretty cool thing. Yeah, No, 0:32:22.560 --> 0:32:25.120 that that paints a pretty good picture, pretty good tapestry 0:32:25.120 --> 0:32:27.680 of a bunch of people that care about wildlife and 0:32:27.760 --> 0:32:30.520 wanted to thrive and in many different ways. UM. And 0:32:30.600 --> 0:32:32.840 this goes back to I had Shane Mahoney on the 0:32:32.880 --> 0:32:36.560 podcast here a couple of weeks ago, and part of 0:32:36.560 --> 0:32:38.640 our conversation was, you know, what can hunters do better 0:32:38.680 --> 0:32:42.240 too to represent what what they feel? And one of 0:32:42.280 --> 0:32:45.680 his points was, we can better present represent our caring 0:32:45.800 --> 0:32:48.760 for wild life in its totality, the things, the things 0:32:48.800 --> 0:32:51.040 that we don't hunt, the things that we don't we 0:32:51.040 --> 0:32:55.680 don't see ourselves as necessarily stewards of UM. We can 0:32:55.800 --> 0:32:58.040 represent that in a way much to what you're saying 0:32:58.520 --> 0:33:01.160 that makes sense across the board and just says we 0:33:01.240 --> 0:33:03.680 care about nature and not just about the well being 0:33:03.720 --> 0:33:07.560 of the things that we kill and need. UM And 0:33:07.560 --> 0:33:11.440 and at some level worship you know, we worship elk 0:33:11.640 --> 0:33:14.840 and deer and not so much other things. And I 0:33:14.840 --> 0:33:16.480 didn't you even see that in the hunting world. You 0:33:16.520 --> 0:33:20.960 see that um anti hunters or non hunters are okay 0:33:21.000 --> 0:33:22.640 with seeing a duck get shot in the face a 0:33:22.640 --> 0:33:25.040 lot of times, but they're not or a turkey, but 0:33:25.080 --> 0:33:27.320 they're not so okay with watching an elk get shot 0:33:27.640 --> 0:33:31.240 and die. And so you just see kind of everybody 0:33:31.240 --> 0:33:34.280 has their own biases, but hunters, as folks that are 0:33:34.320 --> 0:33:37.040 consumptive users or wildlife, certainly could do better at at 0:33:37.520 --> 0:33:40.080 caring about everything rather than just what we what we 0:33:40.200 --> 0:33:43.160 chase around. Yeah, and I mean, I think, you know, 0:33:43.200 --> 0:33:45.680 two points come to mind, and one is that these 0:33:45.720 --> 0:33:50.400 animals that hunters might identify with, whether it's doc or 0:33:50.480 --> 0:33:55.400 turkey or big horner or elk, those animals exist because 0:33:55.440 --> 0:33:59.440 the ecosystem exists. And the ecosystem exists because the butterflies 0:33:59.480 --> 0:34:01.800 pollinate the plants, and the birds pond at the plants, 0:34:01.920 --> 0:34:06.520 and the Clark's nutcracker disperses the seeds that feed the bear, 0:34:06.760 --> 0:34:11.080 you know, And we can't without if there's not a 0:34:11.120 --> 0:34:14.760 healthy ecosystem that the species that we love and pursue 0:34:15.280 --> 0:34:18.920 won't thrive. So I think it's whether or not we 0:34:19.000 --> 0:34:22.480 really have a personal relationship or affinity to a butterfly 0:34:22.800 --> 0:34:26.799 or you know, to a squirrel that bury a lot 0:34:26.800 --> 0:34:29.480 of acorns that feed a lot of white tail um. 0:34:29.560 --> 0:34:31.000 You know, they grow up into trees and feed the 0:34:31.040 --> 0:34:37.000 forest with Without that squirrel dispersing the acorns, we're not 0:34:37.040 --> 0:34:42.399 going to have healthy oak forests that feed healthy deer populations. Yeah, 0:34:42.480 --> 0:34:45.160 and there's been there's been anti hunters or you know, 0:34:45.360 --> 0:34:48.080 animal rights activists in the past, going all the way 0:34:48.080 --> 0:34:51.520 back into the sixties that say conservation is an idea 0:34:52.040 --> 0:34:56.120 created too you know, pull the wool over everybody's eyes 0:34:57.000 --> 0:34:59.560 for hunters, you know, it's it's a it's a term 0:34:59.640 --> 0:35:03.000 that allows us to to be altruistic in a sense, 0:35:03.040 --> 0:35:05.959 but also we're just doing it for our own personal gain, 0:35:06.040 --> 0:35:07.920 So we're only being we're only saving elk so we 0:35:07.960 --> 0:35:10.759 can kill them um. And a lot of these animal 0:35:10.840 --> 0:35:13.719 rights activity even going back to guys like Joseph would 0:35:14.160 --> 0:35:17.920 kurtsed back in um in the sixties in the in 0:35:17.960 --> 0:35:20.480 the height of the beginning of the hs U s 0:35:20.880 --> 0:35:24.640 talking about animal rights being the way and conservation being 0:35:24.680 --> 0:35:26.719 a lie. And I think that I think that goes 0:35:26.760 --> 0:35:29.680 back to what you're talking about. Yeah, and I think, 0:35:30.160 --> 0:35:36.239 you know, the historical historical kind of divide and the 0:35:36.280 --> 0:35:42.000 polarization of that of that narrative I think is you know, oftentimes, 0:35:42.000 --> 0:35:45.440 I think people fail to to to remember that a 0:35:45.440 --> 0:35:48.200 lot of those early Boone and Crockett Club members, Teddy Roosevelt, 0:35:48.480 --> 0:35:50.720 you know, they weren't perfect. You can read their history 0:35:50.760 --> 0:35:53.439 books and there's probably some things that you know, maybe 0:35:53.480 --> 0:35:56.440 they could have done better, but they also they set 0:35:56.440 --> 0:35:59.279 the stage for conservation to succeed, you know. I mean 0:35:59.280 --> 0:36:02.520 he talked about went out to Montana and having trouble 0:36:03.080 --> 0:36:06.879 finding a bison to hunt, you know, and then he 0:36:07.000 --> 0:36:11.799 had obviously one of the biggest influences and conservation you know, 0:36:11.840 --> 0:36:15.680 into the future. And I think there's something to be 0:36:15.719 --> 0:36:20.239 said for people who dedicate their time and energy to wildlife, 0:36:20.239 --> 0:36:23.759 whether they're non hunters, anti hunters, or hunters. You know, 0:36:23.800 --> 0:36:29.439 I think, um, you know, there's one thing to buy 0:36:29.440 --> 0:36:31.360 a hunting license and know that some of that money 0:36:31.360 --> 0:36:34.480 goes into the Pittman Robson you know fund, you know, 0:36:34.719 --> 0:36:37.839 by way of the Act. But there's another thing to 0:36:37.840 --> 0:36:39.960 to do that. But then also to spend your time 0:36:41.520 --> 0:36:46.320 planting trees or or helping restore a right parent ecosystem, 0:36:46.440 --> 0:36:49.520 or you know, doing a Christmas bird count that informs 0:36:49.520 --> 0:36:52.279 the way that we understand songbirds. There's I think there's 0:36:52.320 --> 0:36:55.960 degrees to which we can be conservationists. There's the there's 0:36:56.000 --> 0:37:00.040 the kind of initial entry, uh you know, membership of 0:37:00.560 --> 0:37:03.600 of buying a tag and having some money go into conservation. 0:37:03.640 --> 0:37:06.920 But I think there's there's a lot of other ways 0:37:07.040 --> 0:37:10.239 to to get involved and to have a hand in 0:37:10.560 --> 0:37:13.920 writing the future of America's conservation um. And I think 0:37:14.000 --> 0:37:17.279 one of the things that non hunters and anti hunters 0:37:18.800 --> 0:37:22.439 maybe don't I haven't been exposed to or haven't thought of, 0:37:23.600 --> 0:37:30.120 is that a lot of hunters, you know, don't enjoy watches. 0:37:30.160 --> 0:37:32.200 Some mean die, you know, Like I grew up hunting 0:37:32.680 --> 0:37:36.440 birds mostly, but I've vivid memories of being sad about 0:37:36.480 --> 0:37:39.840 that and then eating the food and realizing that to 0:37:39.920 --> 0:37:43.680 eat meat, something has to die. And that was a 0:37:43.760 --> 0:37:46.040 choice that I made. And it's not something to take lightly, 0:37:46.080 --> 0:37:50.319 and it's not something that happens with you know, with 0:37:50.480 --> 0:37:55.759 this kind of neglect of of of realizing that you 0:37:55.800 --> 0:37:57.600 know that this is a life and death situation for 0:37:57.600 --> 0:38:02.320 these animals. Um you know, the difference between a white 0:38:02.320 --> 0:38:06.359 tailed deer dying and you know a desert bighorn are 0:38:06.400 --> 0:38:10.359 very different, right. White tail deer are incredibly abundant, very 0:38:10.400 --> 0:38:13.480 much not under threat. You know, there are places where 0:38:13.480 --> 0:38:16.400 desert bighorn are are hanging on and kind of rebounding. 0:38:16.920 --> 0:38:21.160 And you know, I just shot a film with with 0:38:21.200 --> 0:38:23.759 Ben Masters and Adam Foss. I'm sure you know both 0:38:23.800 --> 0:38:28.080 those guys um on desert bighorn sheep down in Texas. 0:38:28.440 --> 0:38:31.520 Sitka supported it and Texas Parks and Wildlife had a 0:38:31.520 --> 0:38:34.920 big plane it. And it's a film about a bunch 0:38:34.960 --> 0:38:39.360 of people, many of whom probably identify as hunters, spending 0:38:39.440 --> 0:38:43.520 their their time, money and energy getting bighorn sheep back 0:38:43.560 --> 0:38:47.080 onto these mountains that used to support healthy populations and 0:38:47.239 --> 0:38:51.640 don't anymore. And most of them will never have a 0:38:51.719 --> 0:38:55.319 chance to hunt bighorn sheep. But they have the the hat, 0:38:55.600 --> 0:38:58.760 you know, the Wild Cheap Foundation hat, and they they 0:38:58.960 --> 0:39:02.439 are card carrying big horn enthusiasts. But they're not doing 0:39:02.440 --> 0:39:03.840 it to put one on the wall. They're doing it 0:39:03.880 --> 0:39:05.440 because they want to see one hop out of that 0:39:05.480 --> 0:39:08.240 horse trailer. And you know, run up into the mountains 0:39:08.920 --> 0:39:11.160 and and that's it, you know, And I think it's 0:39:11.160 --> 0:39:13.879 an it's an important thing to remind people is that 0:39:14.680 --> 0:39:18.080 it's called hunting, not killing. You know, like there's so 0:39:18.080 --> 0:39:20.280 many days we go hunt and we we just watch, 0:39:20.640 --> 0:39:22.440 you know, most of it might say that when we 0:39:23.040 --> 0:39:25.200 didn't kill something, because I always thought that was like, well, 0:39:25.239 --> 0:39:29.080 that's that mean we suck his hunters. We talk killing 0:39:29.080 --> 0:39:31.040 and we stuck with that. That's an idea that that 0:39:31.239 --> 0:39:34.839 certainly is worth going over because it's it's something that 0:39:35.880 --> 0:39:39.680 it goes to this whole conversation. If you're not killing something, 0:39:39.719 --> 0:39:41.800 did you succeed? And how did you succeed? You know, 0:39:41.840 --> 0:39:44.719 if you've never killed, if you're could you be ah 0:39:45.160 --> 0:39:47.600 a conservationist and a sheep hunter if you've never killed 0:39:47.640 --> 0:39:49.480 one in your entire life and maybe stand to never 0:39:49.680 --> 0:39:54.080 do so, I think you can be absolutely And I 0:39:54.120 --> 0:39:57.319 mean I was talking with with Um, one of the 0:39:57.320 --> 0:39:59.880 biologists down there, and he told me a story about 0:40:00.920 --> 0:40:04.080 a gentleman who who bought the tag to go hunt 0:40:04.719 --> 0:40:07.360 one of these sheep and and never pulled the trigger. 0:40:08.440 --> 0:40:11.399 And that was fine. He just he for whatever reason 0:40:11.440 --> 0:40:14.600 didn't feel right and he just just didn't happen. He 0:40:14.719 --> 0:40:16.640 was happy as can be. You know, he walked off 0:40:16.680 --> 0:40:19.840 that mountain and he had succeeded. You know, he'd gotten 0:40:19.920 --> 0:40:21.560 up there and gotten a chance to have this once 0:40:21.600 --> 0:40:24.160 in a life some opportunity. And I mean I think 0:40:24.160 --> 0:40:26.719 back on my hunting season last year, and I mean 0:40:26.760 --> 0:40:28.279 some of the best moments of my life. We're just 0:40:28.320 --> 0:40:32.319 sitting with my fiancee, uh, you know, watching elk just 0:40:32.480 --> 0:40:35.160 ripped by and looking at her and looking at you know, 0:40:35.680 --> 0:40:37.200 her looking at me, and just this kind of like 0:40:37.239 --> 0:40:39.400 out of body experience, and that was it, you know, 0:40:39.640 --> 0:40:41.680 just basically what I used to do as an ecologist, 0:40:41.719 --> 0:40:43.920 which was go sit in the woods for months and 0:40:44.000 --> 0:40:48.279 years on end and watch animals, which is that's why 0:40:48.280 --> 0:40:51.319 I do it so well. I mean I think, yeah, 0:40:51.400 --> 0:40:53.319 you go back to some of the things that we 0:40:53.360 --> 0:40:55.399 do and hunting to kind of boil down all these 0:40:55.440 --> 0:40:59.480 ideas and make him easy into hashtags or bullet points 0:40:59.560 --> 0:41:02.520 or you know, campaign slogans or whatever they need to 0:41:02.520 --> 0:41:05.160 be for people understand them. And a couple of loads. 0:41:05.200 --> 0:41:08.880 There's one start making the rounds now called conservationist, and 0:41:08.920 --> 0:41:11.279 there's the other one is hunting is conservation Those are 0:41:11.320 --> 0:41:13.000 the two I've seen recently That kind of irked me 0:41:13.000 --> 0:41:15.800 a little bit, and I think maybe just because that 0:41:15.920 --> 0:41:19.120 simplifies makes it simple, like to go hunting is to 0:41:19.120 --> 0:41:22.600 be a conservationist. No, it's not not at all. Um, 0:41:22.680 --> 0:41:26.000 Hunting is hunting and conservation is conservation. Of course, you 0:41:26.000 --> 0:41:28.440 know do you know well know that hunting is a 0:41:28.440 --> 0:41:30.839 tool of conservations in a lot of ways, but they 0:41:30.880 --> 0:41:34.120 aren't one and the same, and to try to draw 0:41:34.200 --> 0:41:37.640 that line just just seems a bit lazy to me 0:41:37.719 --> 0:41:41.160 and oversimplifying what what is complicated. So it's it's nice 0:41:41.200 --> 0:41:44.680 to hear that there are folks, especially in Texas, that 0:41:44.680 --> 0:41:47.960 that are doing those things the right way. Yeah. I 0:41:47.960 --> 0:41:49.719 think it's a great point. I mean it's it's just 0:41:49.800 --> 0:41:52.560 like you know, saying that because you pay your taxes, 0:41:52.600 --> 0:41:57.359 your pro highways and pro war and pro bridge restoration 0:41:57.640 --> 0:42:01.799 and reinforcement. Yeah, I mean it's you know, I think 0:42:01.840 --> 0:42:05.000 it's by default you are putting money into that in 0:42:05.000 --> 0:42:09.719 that bucket. But to your point, you know, there's there's definitely, 0:42:10.200 --> 0:42:12.520 and I think the distinction is important because it helps 0:42:12.560 --> 0:42:15.399 people realize that there there is more to do, right, 0:42:15.520 --> 0:42:20.719 Like you can hunt and you can contribute, you know, 0:42:21.120 --> 0:42:24.640 some some funds into conservation by buying your tags and 0:42:24.800 --> 0:42:27.520 in all the taxes that are out there. But there's 0:42:27.560 --> 0:42:31.120 also a rich community of people who are debting, like 0:42:31.120 --> 0:42:33.320 like I said, who are dedicating their time and energy 0:42:33.360 --> 0:42:36.160 into conservation and some of them hunting, some of them don't, 0:42:36.480 --> 0:42:40.960 and that's fine. But the the common passion is just 0:42:41.000 --> 0:42:45.160 for for wildlife and you know, the outdoors, and it's 0:42:45.160 --> 0:42:47.880 something that you know, it's you you point out that 0:42:47.920 --> 0:42:50.960 it's a it's a phenomena that's happening in the hunting world, 0:42:51.000 --> 0:42:53.000 it's also happening in the outdoor world. You know, I 0:42:53.040 --> 0:42:56.160 spent a lot of time and a lot of the 0:42:56.239 --> 0:42:58.680 projects and people I engage with are just in the 0:42:58.719 --> 0:43:01.920 kind of traditional outdoor space, and there's you know, I 0:43:01.960 --> 0:43:04.520 have the same kind of feelings that you shared about 0:43:04.560 --> 0:43:06.680 the outdoor world. You know, just because you hike the 0:43:06.680 --> 0:43:11.560 PCT or or went camping in Alaska or you know, 0:43:11.840 --> 0:43:15.680 enjoy bears Ears doesn't mean that you're conservationist or doesn't 0:43:15.680 --> 0:43:19.719 mean that you are an informed person. That really can 0:43:19.760 --> 0:43:22.120 add much to the conservation narrative. Besides the fact that 0:43:22.120 --> 0:43:25.520 you hiked there once or camp there twice or you know, 0:43:25.560 --> 0:43:27.200 I think there's just such a difference between hiking in 0:43:27.239 --> 0:43:29.720 the place and and camping in a place or hunting 0:43:29.719 --> 0:43:34.279 in a place and actually understanding the ecological rhythms of 0:43:34.280 --> 0:43:37.279 the place and the threats and the conservation history and 0:43:37.920 --> 0:43:40.879 the constituents, you know, from a social perspective, and all 0:43:41.000 --> 0:43:44.839 in the kind of the ecosystem at large. I mean, 0:43:44.840 --> 0:43:49.759 there's just it's such as conversation gives me. That conversation 0:43:49.800 --> 0:43:51.920 gives me a lot of energy, like even when you're 0:43:51.960 --> 0:43:54.879 hearing you talk about that, because I think just from 0:43:54.880 --> 0:43:57.800 an I D standpoint, I see a lot of hunters 0:43:57.800 --> 0:44:01.439 who who just they're paying attacks right that it's it's 0:44:01.520 --> 0:44:04.560 voluntary by way of going in and purchasing a hunting license. 0:44:04.560 --> 0:44:06.920 But if you want to go hunting, it's involuntary. If 0:44:06.920 --> 0:44:09.240 you want to legally hunt, you have to buy a license, 0:44:09.760 --> 0:44:12.720 right You. You have to purchase unless you borrow from someone. 0:44:13.239 --> 0:44:16.080 You have to purchase a firearm or or archery tackle. 0:44:16.160 --> 0:44:19.800 So at some level it's a requirement that our system 0:44:19.840 --> 0:44:21.800 is set up that you pay this tax into Pittman 0:44:21.880 --> 0:44:26.120 Robertson or into um into the state wildlife agencies. It's 0:44:26.160 --> 0:44:28.560 not voluntary. They don't ask you, when you buy a rifle, 0:44:28.600 --> 0:44:30.799 would you like to pay eleven percent excise tax? Would 0:44:30.800 --> 0:44:33.720 you like to leave that off? Like you, you purchase 0:44:33.800 --> 0:44:36.719 it and you pay it. I think there is in 0:44:36.880 --> 0:44:40.680 hunting more comfortable. There's a more comfortable subset of people 0:44:40.719 --> 0:44:42.560 that are like, yes, I know it costs more money 0:44:42.560 --> 0:44:44.720 to hunt, and I know that that. This is why, 0:44:44.760 --> 0:44:47.680 because it does go into conservation. Um. If you flip 0:44:47.719 --> 0:44:51.000 that over to the outdoor wreck community, I think there's less. 0:44:51.080 --> 0:44:54.760 There's less that because the Outdoor Industry Association fights against 0:44:55.080 --> 0:44:58.960 a backpack tax that would would impose some sort of 0:45:00.080 --> 0:45:03.720 excise tax on on goods sold for climbing or hiking 0:45:03.800 --> 0:45:07.319 or camping or whatever. And uh, I don't know that 0:45:07.400 --> 0:45:09.640 there just isn't a history of that in that world, 0:45:10.320 --> 0:45:14.399 or it just I think there's to your point, more 0:45:14.400 --> 0:45:17.399 people that like to say they're conservation is because it's 0:45:17.400 --> 0:45:21.520 trending and it feels good and it's emotionally satisfying to 0:45:21.560 --> 0:45:23.600 say you're a conservation when they're really not doing anything. 0:45:25.200 --> 0:45:27.560 Have you seen that parallel? I mean, hunters are willing 0:45:27.560 --> 0:45:29.279 to pay, but at some level a lot of them 0:45:29.320 --> 0:45:32.319 don't even know what they're paying, and it seems like 0:45:32.320 --> 0:45:34.520 the outdoor space maybe is a little less willing to 0:45:34.520 --> 0:45:38.960 go down that road, but more willing to talk about it. Yeah, 0:45:39.160 --> 0:45:43.760 you know, I don't know. I think I think, without 0:45:43.760 --> 0:45:46.239 saying anything too contentious, you know, I think the outdoor 0:45:48.520 --> 0:45:55.040 industry looks maybe at hunters in a in a light, 0:45:55.239 --> 0:45:59.400 in a certain light, because we're in their eyes. They 0:45:59.400 --> 0:46:01.799 think we're taking something from the outdoors, were taking an 0:46:01.800 --> 0:46:07.640 animal from the outdoors, were harvesting. I think they generally 0:46:08.400 --> 0:46:11.399 this is maybe a gross overstatement, but I think of 0:46:11.440 --> 0:46:15.879 their impacts as benign, so they kind of I think 0:46:15.880 --> 0:46:17.880 maybe there's the stigma of like, oh, we're actually not 0:46:17.920 --> 0:46:23.520 doing anything bad, so therefore we're kind of you know, 0:46:23.520 --> 0:46:26.920 our hands are clean. But you know, you can you 0:46:26.960 --> 0:46:30.520 can look at Yosemite or any of these really heavily 0:46:30.560 --> 0:46:34.760 traffic parks and just the impact on trails and littering 0:46:34.800 --> 0:46:37.840 and just visitation. You know, I mean, maybe we should 0:46:37.840 --> 0:46:41.160 be paying more. Maybe if you're just recreating in some 0:46:41.200 --> 0:46:43.680 of these really highly traffic parks, you should be paying 0:46:43.719 --> 0:46:47.680 more because the net impact on the ecosystem is is 0:46:47.719 --> 0:46:52.080 so tremendous and growing. You know, I think Um, if 0:46:52.200 --> 0:46:55.440 hunters had a choice to pay that tax, I'm not 0:46:55.480 --> 0:46:58.400 sure what the answer is, but I would bet a 0:46:58.400 --> 0:47:03.160 lot of people would opt to not pay the conservation. Uh, 0:47:03.200 --> 0:47:05.719 you know, is that eleven percent that you mentioned. Um, 0:47:05.760 --> 0:47:08.080 that'd be a nice experiment to do. That would be 0:47:08.400 --> 0:47:10.040 that would be an experiment that I would like to 0:47:10.040 --> 0:47:13.040 see if you because I don't think I mean, there's 0:47:13.080 --> 0:47:15.000 a lot of people who know what Pittman Robinson might be, 0:47:15.600 --> 0:47:17.440 but I don't think they know what it really is 0:47:18.400 --> 0:47:20.560 and what it really does, because it's not when you 0:47:20.560 --> 0:47:23.319 buy a hunting license, it's not written on your uh 0:47:23.320 --> 0:47:26.040 in your booklet what where all your money goes? And 0:47:26.120 --> 0:47:28.680 when you purchase a firearm, it's not on your seat 0:47:28.880 --> 0:47:32.080 where that eleven percent exercise tax and how it's levied 0:47:32.120 --> 0:47:35.560 and where it ends up. It's not there's no outward 0:47:35.680 --> 0:47:38.759 education for the hunting community about these things, so a 0:47:38.760 --> 0:47:41.120 lot of folks go go their whole life without ever 0:47:41.160 --> 0:47:43.640 knowing about it. And that's it's a shame in one way, 0:47:43.680 --> 0:47:47.239 but in another way, it's created this disconnection from generational 0:47:47.280 --> 0:47:50.239 disconnect from what's actually happening and what was enacted in 0:47:50.239 --> 0:47:53.399 the thirties. So You're right, I'd be interested to see 0:47:53.400 --> 0:47:55.479 how many hunters would opt to pay that eleven percent 0:47:55.560 --> 0:47:58.720 excise tax or opt to pay that extra tag fees 0:47:58.760 --> 0:48:00.520 that that are going back into the states. I mean, 0:48:00.560 --> 0:48:04.359 i'd be interested in that. I don't know, and I think, 0:48:04.360 --> 0:48:06.759 you know, take this step further. You know, I took 0:48:07.239 --> 0:48:11.719 I got my bow hunting license last year, and we 0:48:11.880 --> 0:48:15.280 you know, in Montana, we take a bow hunting specific 0:48:15.320 --> 0:48:19.040 field course, and you know, they have a portion of 0:48:19.080 --> 0:48:22.719 the courses on you know, blood trails, and a portion 0:48:22.760 --> 0:48:25.560 of the courses on being bear safe and pepper spray 0:48:25.640 --> 0:48:28.480 and how to move safely you know in bear country. 0:48:30.000 --> 0:48:33.680 I mean, I think both rifle and archery hunters would 0:48:33.719 --> 0:48:38.279 benefit tremendously from a portion of that course being a 0:48:38.360 --> 0:48:41.360 natural history course, you know. And maybe it's specific to 0:48:41.400 --> 0:48:45.400 the state or the region, but I mean I'd argue 0:48:45.440 --> 0:48:49.359 that's that's a great entry point to have a more informed, 0:48:50.440 --> 0:48:54.400 conservation minded group of hunters, you know, to make that 0:48:54.480 --> 0:48:56.960 part of the education. You know, you're not just hunting 0:48:57.000 --> 0:49:03.080 a particular animal particular speech ease, but you're taking part 0:49:03.080 --> 0:49:06.960 in this activity that you know affects an ecosystem. And 0:49:07.160 --> 0:49:11.440 here's kind of the building blocks to that ecosystem. Um. 0:49:11.520 --> 0:49:14.239 And just like the outdoor industry, I mean, it's the same. 0:49:14.600 --> 0:49:18.279 You know. One of the the thoughts that comes to 0:49:18.360 --> 0:49:21.000 my mind when I, you know, go to outdoor retailers 0:49:21.160 --> 0:49:24.800 is I walk through these these conference halls filled with 0:49:24.920 --> 0:49:27.799 hundreds of outdoor people, you know, outdoor industry folks, and 0:49:28.680 --> 0:49:30.959 you know, you wonder how many of them could list 0:49:31.000 --> 0:49:33.880 off four bird species that live you know, in the 0:49:33.960 --> 0:49:36.800 in the mountain range they just hiked, you know, or 0:49:37.400 --> 0:49:40.000 or four tree species and not that you need to, 0:49:40.320 --> 0:49:42.719 you know, have a laundry list of the plants and 0:49:42.760 --> 0:49:46.080 animals in your space. But you know, how do we 0:49:46.200 --> 0:49:48.160 I guess the question that I chew on often is 0:49:48.160 --> 0:49:53.520 how do we push the hunting an outdoor industry to 0:49:53.680 --> 0:49:59.640 a place where we start to value that that conservation 0:50:00.040 --> 0:50:04.120 and that natural history kind of element. You know, it's 0:50:04.160 --> 0:50:06.279 not in the currency for the outdoor industry because they're 0:50:06.280 --> 0:50:08.759 more interested in how high the mountain was or how 0:50:08.800 --> 0:50:14.080 difficult the climbing route was. Um. And I don't know, 0:50:14.600 --> 0:50:17.400 but it's I think that's there in lies the difference 0:50:17.400 --> 0:50:21.960 between somebody who recreates outdoors and you know, my grandfather 0:50:22.040 --> 0:50:24.480 who was a hunter, but he was also a Harvard 0:50:24.520 --> 0:50:27.920 trained forester in Minnesota in the North Woods, and he 0:50:28.000 --> 0:50:31.080 took my dad deer hunting his whole childhood. And my 0:50:31.160 --> 0:50:32.680 dad never shot a deer because he just sat on 0:50:32.719 --> 0:50:35.440 a stump and just basically my grandpa just go walk 0:50:35.440 --> 0:50:37.279 around the woods and then come pick my dad up, 0:50:37.320 --> 0:50:43.279 you know, eight hours later. But oh, it's interesting because 0:50:43.280 --> 0:50:46.520 I always break it down by hunters being consumptive users 0:50:47.800 --> 0:50:51.920 and recreationals being non consumptive. Right, working, we're going out 0:50:51.920 --> 0:50:53.879 in the into the woods and taking something we didn't 0:50:53.880 --> 0:50:58.040 put there, right, And normally folks in the outdoor wreck 0:50:58.120 --> 0:51:00.360 community aren't doing that. They're not going it out and 0:51:01.080 --> 0:51:03.000 taking big chunks of rock home with them, or they're 0:51:03.000 --> 0:51:05.600 not going out and cutting trees down. They're just going 0:51:05.640 --> 0:51:07.279 out and the enjoying that space. And yes they have 0:51:07.280 --> 0:51:11.280 an effect, but um, it's not as a direct effect. 0:51:11.280 --> 0:51:13.520 And I think maybe I'm wrong in the in those 0:51:13.560 --> 0:51:17.040 two descriptions. I mean, who cares if you're killing a 0:51:17.040 --> 0:51:21.680 deer or not? Or who cares where you can or whatever. 0:51:21.920 --> 0:51:23.920 I think what we should probably more judge bies, what 0:51:24.040 --> 0:51:29.360 is your overall effect on on the wild world? In nature, 0:51:29.400 --> 0:51:31.759 and then how do you manage that? You know, what's 0:51:31.760 --> 0:51:35.040 your overall effect campers, what's your overall effect hunters? And 0:51:35.040 --> 0:51:37.279 then how do you manage that effect? And how do 0:51:37.360 --> 0:51:41.600 you contribute to you know, the positive A positive look 0:51:41.680 --> 0:51:45.640 upon that I think is important. And and everybody's consuming 0:51:45.680 --> 0:51:48.279 something in some way and affecting something in some way, 0:51:48.360 --> 0:51:51.600 But um, are both of those groups having the same 0:51:51.640 --> 0:51:56.239 positive effect at the end of the day. Yeah, I 0:51:56.239 --> 0:51:57.680 think you bring up a great point, you know. I 0:51:57.760 --> 0:52:02.000 think about white deer again, you know, and in a 0:52:02.080 --> 0:52:06.920 lot of places, if you were somebody looking to have 0:52:06.960 --> 0:52:09.759 a positive effect on an ecosystem with an overabundance of 0:52:09.760 --> 0:52:12.040 white tailed deer, one of the best things you could 0:52:12.080 --> 0:52:17.640 do is harvest a white tailed deer. Yeah. Conversely, one 0:52:17.640 --> 0:52:19.440 of the best things you can do if you're hiking 0:52:19.440 --> 0:52:22.399 in Yosemite is to stay on the trail because so 0:52:22.440 --> 0:52:26.560 many people for an Instagram photo or for whatever reason 0:52:26.640 --> 0:52:30.720 are off trail, you know, further marginalizing in sensitive habitat. 0:52:30.800 --> 0:52:37.080 And I think the net gains of harvesting that white 0:52:37.080 --> 0:52:41.160 tailed deer in a place like Texas or staying on trail, 0:52:41.280 --> 0:52:44.080 you know, I think they're very similar in my eyes, 0:52:44.200 --> 0:52:47.799 right like you're you're pushing the needle and towards a 0:52:47.840 --> 0:52:50.759 place of conservation and stewardship and mindfulness, you know, And 0:52:50.800 --> 0:52:54.720 I think a lot of people, you know, non hunters 0:52:54.800 --> 0:52:57.680 might not think about the benefits of hunting certain animals 0:52:57.680 --> 0:53:03.440 certain populations. And also non hunters might not think about 0:53:03.480 --> 0:53:07.560 the net effect of poaching a campsite next to a 0:53:07.640 --> 0:53:12.680 lake and throwing your you know, your kitchen scraps into 0:53:12.719 --> 0:53:15.200 a high alpine lake because they probably don't realize that 0:53:15.200 --> 0:53:20.919 those high alpine lakes are very biologically poor, Like there's 0:53:20.960 --> 0:53:24.520 not a lot of organisms that break down a piece 0:53:24.520 --> 0:53:26.960 of bread or a or a piece of chicken, so 0:53:27.000 --> 0:53:29.120 it just sits in the lake. They call him a 0:53:29.160 --> 0:53:32.640 liga trophic nutrient poor. You know, if I don't realize 0:53:32.680 --> 0:53:34.759 that's that's a bad thing, or people probably don't realize that, 0:53:35.200 --> 0:53:38.200 you know, going to the bathroom on the side of 0:53:38.239 --> 0:53:43.040 a trail in goat country or sheep countries actually probably 0:53:43.040 --> 0:53:44.880 not the best thing, because those animals come down for 0:53:44.920 --> 0:53:47.560 the salt and they end up disturbing the you know, 0:53:47.719 --> 0:53:50.640 the soil next to these trails, and over time it 0:53:50.680 --> 0:53:54.160 can pounds and it can be actually have pretty dramatic effects. 0:53:54.840 --> 0:53:56.959 Or I can just bring these animals into places where 0:53:57.160 --> 0:54:02.000 potential conflict of humans is greater. Yeah, now that's interesting me. 0:54:02.440 --> 0:54:05.439 I think, you know outdoor rec users and I can't 0:54:05.480 --> 0:54:07.400 say that I go camping a lot or go you know, 0:54:07.600 --> 0:54:10.000 necessarily go hike in a ton in places where I'm 0:54:10.040 --> 0:54:12.239 not hunting. I do, but it's mostly around my house 0:54:12.280 --> 0:54:16.160 here in Texas. You know, I know hunters. There's the 0:54:16.160 --> 0:54:18.040 build in model, right, we pay, we pay, we pay, 0:54:18.120 --> 0:54:21.120 we pay, And that's always how we talk about it. 0:54:21.200 --> 0:54:25.000 Everything's everything costs more because it's it's a more serious activity. 0:54:25.480 --> 0:54:27.480 Is there the same thing in outdoor recreation? Do you 0:54:27.520 --> 0:54:31.040 feel like people are camping or hiking or they're they're 0:54:31.040 --> 0:54:35.040 paying enough um, whether it's a park fee or you know, 0:54:35.920 --> 0:54:38.480 parking lot fee or whatever it might be, there is 0:54:38.520 --> 0:54:40.399 they're the same? That's it's a legitimate question. I don't 0:54:40.440 --> 0:54:42.440 really have a point. I'm just I just I'm not 0:54:42.480 --> 0:54:46.520 as educated in that. Yeah, I mean, I I think 0:54:48.480 --> 0:54:53.360 one of the greatest things that's preventing public land managers, 0:54:53.920 --> 0:54:57.279 whether it's the Force Service, the BLM, or National Park 0:54:57.360 --> 0:55:03.000 Service from accomplishing their conservation goals is funding, and you know, 0:55:03.120 --> 0:55:08.400 every president and the politicians that come with them have 0:55:08.640 --> 0:55:11.399 their pros and cons. But one of the things that's 0:55:11.400 --> 0:55:16.000 been a recurring theme with organizations like the BLM is 0:55:16.040 --> 0:55:18.440 they don't have the funds to do what they need 0:55:18.480 --> 0:55:23.399 to do. So you look at BLM, you know public land, 0:55:23.480 --> 0:55:26.440 and it's you can just camp wherever you want. If 0:55:26.480 --> 0:55:29.760 there's a shortage of resources for the agency to manage 0:55:29.760 --> 0:55:32.960 a public lands well, and it's a financial shortage. But 0:55:33.160 --> 0:55:37.520 yet places like the Eastern Sierra in California, thousands of 0:55:37.520 --> 0:55:41.040 people are camping in every day for free. I mean, yeah, 0:55:41.080 --> 0:55:44.799 it's romantic and it sounds great, but they're also having 0:55:44.840 --> 0:55:48.759 to close BLM campgrounds around Zion National Park because they're 0:55:48.760 --> 0:55:53.040 being used to such an extent that the ecosystems being degraded. 0:55:54.080 --> 0:55:58.160 So it just doesn't seem to be the most uh 0:55:58.320 --> 0:56:03.200 responsible approach. You know, let people do something for free 0:56:03.360 --> 0:56:06.160 and then we eventually close it in time because it's 0:56:06.200 --> 0:56:08.320 being destroyed because so many people are using it for free, 0:56:08.520 --> 0:56:12.319 and the agency and the managers tasked with protecting and 0:56:12.360 --> 0:56:15.759 stewarding our natural resources can't do their job because they 0:56:15.760 --> 0:56:18.560 don't have enough money. You know, some of that's obviously 0:56:18.600 --> 0:56:21.960 the just the political kind of landscape and where money 0:56:22.080 --> 0:56:28.319 is moved around. But I think people have so much 0:56:29.320 --> 0:56:33.880 respect and there's were Americans, at least in the outdoor 0:56:34.640 --> 0:56:36.719 and the hunting industry, I think are generally proud of 0:56:36.760 --> 0:56:39.839 their public land and proud of the places we get 0:56:39.840 --> 0:56:43.880 to go play and recreate. But again it's you know, 0:56:44.239 --> 0:56:46.840 as more and more of us fall in love with 0:56:46.880 --> 0:56:49.840 these places, the more stress there is on these places. 0:56:49.880 --> 0:56:53.560 And I would be an advocate for charging more at 0:56:53.680 --> 0:56:57.319 entry fees and and even charging a dollar at BLM, 0:56:57.360 --> 0:57:01.400 you know, campsites. I mean, it adds up um and 0:57:01.440 --> 0:57:06.840 I think, yeah, it's it's it's it makes sense. You know, 0:57:06.960 --> 0:57:11.520 these are not these ecosystems can't manage themselves. And whether 0:57:11.560 --> 0:57:16.080 we want to believe that, you know, wilderness areas are 0:57:16.160 --> 0:57:19.560 completely devoid of of human fingerprints, is just not true, 0:57:19.920 --> 0:57:23.120 you know, whether it's it's the way that we're influencing 0:57:23.160 --> 0:57:26.000 the climate or wildfires that some guy might start with 0:57:26.040 --> 0:57:27.680 a cigarette in the side of a highway that burned 0:57:27.680 --> 0:57:30.400 in For our wilderness areas, I mean, even if you're 0:57:31.440 --> 0:57:33.200 thirty miles from a road, which I think is about 0:57:33.200 --> 0:57:34.800 as remote as it gets in the lower forty eight, 0:57:35.800 --> 0:57:39.800 there's still signatures of man all over the place. Oh yeah, UM, 0:57:40.480 --> 0:57:42.480 So I think with that in mind, you know, we 0:57:42.520 --> 0:57:46.040 should be tasked with, you know, kind of an entry 0:57:46.040 --> 0:57:50.000 fee to help protect these places. Yeah, that's one the 0:57:50.040 --> 0:57:52.840 one difference I think where and And I'm sure you're 0:57:52.920 --> 0:57:56.560 like I am, because I do UM live in a 0:57:56.560 --> 0:57:59.320 world where I see a lot of stuff in the 0:57:59.320 --> 0:58:01.600 outdoor community, and then I see a lot of stuff 0:58:01.600 --> 0:58:03.680 in the hunting community and I and I see how 0:58:03.680 --> 0:58:07.240 similar the mindsets are UM, and then I see how 0:58:08.280 --> 0:58:13.320 dissimilarly the outward UM talking points are, and I would 0:58:13.360 --> 0:58:15.560 say like to bring them close together. I think that's 0:58:16.600 --> 0:58:19.440 one thing you can do from an outdoor wreck perspective 0:58:19.520 --> 0:58:23.160 is is be willing to pay more and asked asked 0:58:23.240 --> 0:58:25.080 to pay more. I mean, I think hunters do that 0:58:25.120 --> 0:58:27.800 and a lot of a lot of aspects UM. Asked 0:58:27.800 --> 0:58:30.480 to pay more for your impact and understand and try 0:58:30.480 --> 0:58:32.520 to understand really what it is. And then people willing 0:58:32.520 --> 0:58:35.320 to pay more to go do which I think hunters 0:58:36.120 --> 0:58:39.040 UM are in most respects. And I think for hunters 0:58:39.040 --> 0:58:41.320 the way to get closer to the outdoor wreck space 0:58:42.360 --> 0:58:45.920 is to be a little bit more environmentally conscious and 0:58:45.960 --> 0:58:48.360 be understanding of what we were talking about earlier, the 0:58:48.400 --> 0:58:51.360 totality of the environment and what all of it means together, 0:58:51.800 --> 0:58:53.919 and that hunting is a crucial part, but it's only 0:58:53.960 --> 0:58:56.720 one part um. But I think if you could kind 0:58:56.720 --> 0:59:00.000 of convince both communities that those two things, to shift 0:59:00.040 --> 0:59:02.240 those two ideologies a little bit, you push them together, 0:59:02.600 --> 0:59:04.560 they find that there's not that much of a difference. 0:59:04.920 --> 0:59:06.720 I don't I don't think they're really especially from the 0:59:06.720 --> 0:59:11.320 folks that I've talked to. Yeah, I totally agree. I mean, 0:59:11.320 --> 0:59:16.840 I think recreation has an impact, and I think it's 0:59:16.880 --> 0:59:19.960 important for the community to see that and work towards 0:59:20.320 --> 0:59:23.880 reducing that impact. You know. I think, like we talked 0:59:23.920 --> 0:59:27.360 about earlier, I think hunters should be reminded that just 0:59:27.440 --> 0:59:32.480 because you put money into the bucket in an involuntary 0:59:32.520 --> 0:59:35.280 way doesn't mean you're a conservationist. That there's a lot 0:59:35.280 --> 0:59:39.480 of ways to legitimize that claim, and I think creating 0:59:40.760 --> 0:59:44.600 a framework for the average outdoor recreation person to put 0:59:44.640 --> 0:59:47.880 money in a bucket and also have more opportunities to 0:59:49.280 --> 0:59:51.880 you know, engage with conservation and have that be I mean, 0:59:51.880 --> 0:59:55.280 that's from a personal perspective from somebody who makes films 0:59:55.320 --> 0:59:58.000 as an ecologist, and you know, somebody in both the 0:59:58.040 --> 1:00:01.280 outdoor and hunting industry. You know, I think there seems 1:00:01.280 --> 1:00:05.720 to be more value placed on conservation from a from 1:00:05.720 --> 1:00:09.280 a brand perspective, from a community perspective. I mean, you 1:00:09.320 --> 1:00:13.200 can walk through an outdoor trade show or a hunting 1:00:13.200 --> 1:00:16.200 trade show and and you know, talking about conservation is 1:00:16.240 --> 1:00:19.520 probably not the coolest conversation in the room. You know, 1:00:20.000 --> 1:00:22.280 it's probably the guy who climbed l Cap and the 1:00:22.360 --> 1:00:26.320 guy who had some incredible hunt, you know, some incredible 1:00:26.320 --> 1:00:29.760 successful hunt that's filling up the auditoriums for the different 1:00:29.760 --> 1:00:34.160 seminars or whatever. But you know, I would argue that, yeah, 1:00:34.200 --> 1:00:37.640 to your point, like we hunters and people who recreate 1:00:37.960 --> 1:00:42.960 both need healthy ecosystems to do what they do, you know. 1:00:43.120 --> 1:00:46.200 I mean, if you're if you're somebody who goes to 1:00:46.320 --> 1:00:50.760 Yosemite to get a picture, you know, of a waterfall, 1:00:51.320 --> 1:00:56.600 you need snowpack and cold winters to have water filling 1:00:56.600 --> 1:01:01.040 those waterfalls that you know, A globe stewardship is something 1:01:01.080 --> 1:01:03.040 that helps that. You know, Hunters, if you want a 1:01:03.080 --> 1:01:08.160 big bull elk, you need a healthy ecosystem to support 1:01:08.200 --> 1:01:12.440 that bull elk um. So yeah, I think there are 1:01:12.480 --> 1:01:18.240 those kind of historical, preconceived notions that that have maintained 1:01:18.240 --> 1:01:23.080 the divide. And you know my yeah, like I said, 1:01:23.120 --> 1:01:27.560 my kind of mission is to help people realize that 1:01:27.600 --> 1:01:30.440 there's actually a lot of common ground. Yeah, And I 1:01:30.480 --> 1:01:33.520 mean there totally is. I mean I've talked to a 1:01:33.520 --> 1:01:35.720 lot of the leaders in the outdoor space, and you know, 1:01:35.760 --> 1:01:38.360 I think maybe they I thought, well, they you know, 1:01:38.400 --> 1:01:40.400 they obviously know I'm a hunter, so maybe they cringe 1:01:40.400 --> 1:01:42.480 and even talking to me, And that's not the case 1:01:42.520 --> 1:01:45.760 at all. Ever, They just you know, they need a 1:01:45.800 --> 1:01:48.480 little bit more knowledge from the angle work coming from 1:01:48.480 --> 1:01:51.120 and vice versa, just a little bit more. I mean, 1:01:51.200 --> 1:01:54.400 we're not that far off. And I think the worst 1:01:54.440 --> 1:01:59.200 thing that could happen is for hunters to be painted 1:01:59.200 --> 1:02:01.280 as people who don't care about the environment, because I 1:02:01.320 --> 1:02:03.440 find that most of the time not to be true. 1:02:03.480 --> 1:02:07.200 Because and and sure you could bring up trophy hunting 1:02:07.280 --> 1:02:11.080 or in some negative connotation and talk about how, um, 1:02:11.120 --> 1:02:13.760 some hunters are hunting for ego or hunting for their 1:02:13.800 --> 1:02:17.840 own personal vanity. Sure that's fine, there surely are some 1:02:17.880 --> 1:02:20.560 people doing that. But there's a lot of campers who litter, 1:02:20.840 --> 1:02:23.520 So I wouldn't paint all campers as litterers, just the 1:02:23.560 --> 1:02:26.160 same as I wouldn't paint all hunters as trophy hunters 1:02:26.240 --> 1:02:28.920 or whatever negative connotation we would we would call it. 1:02:29.000 --> 1:02:33.320 So I I certainly think the outdoor space sometimes it's 1:02:33.320 --> 1:02:35.200 guilty of that, And then I think the hunting space 1:02:35.280 --> 1:02:38.680 is guilty of of thinking, Hey, here's a bunch of 1:02:38.760 --> 1:02:41.160 left leaning greenies that don't don't think the way we 1:02:41.200 --> 1:02:44.320 think was that's not true either. I think there's there's 1:02:46.400 --> 1:02:48.640 less less truth in those two ideas than I think 1:02:48.760 --> 1:02:52.000 either side would want to admit. But it's close man, 1:02:52.080 --> 1:02:58.080 and guys like yourself are key. And then bringing it together, Yeah, 1:02:58.080 --> 1:02:59.520 I think you bring up a great point. I mean, 1:03:01.280 --> 1:03:05.240 there's people are always drawn to one end of the spectrum, right, 1:03:05.640 --> 1:03:07.520 This group of people is bad, this group of people 1:03:07.560 --> 1:03:15.040 is good. And the way I think about hunting, recreation, politics, anything, 1:03:15.080 --> 1:03:17.200 it's always a spectrum of best and could be better. 1:03:17.640 --> 1:03:20.960 There's always the bad apples that that you know, hold 1:03:21.040 --> 1:03:26.320 up the bottom of the spectrum. But yeah, I'd argue 1:03:26.360 --> 1:03:28.120 there's just as many hunters that could do a better 1:03:28.200 --> 1:03:31.920 job as there are outdoor you know, recreators who could 1:03:31.920 --> 1:03:33.680 do a better job, you know, and I think we 1:03:33.760 --> 1:03:37.160 just see I think we as you know, as people 1:03:37.960 --> 1:03:39.920 you know, with the platform in the industry and with 1:03:40.280 --> 1:03:42.680 peers and friends who have platforms, and we work with 1:03:42.720 --> 1:03:45.160 brands that have platforms, you know. I think if we 1:03:46.080 --> 1:03:52.640 create and and place value and those best examples, those stewards, 1:03:52.640 --> 1:03:56.240 those people who do what they do in a mindful 1:03:56.280 --> 1:04:00.600 way and aren't going about their business trying to propagate 1:04:00.680 --> 1:04:03.640 the divide, but rather do what's right, then I think 1:04:03.680 --> 1:04:06.520 we can move the needle towards that middle ground while 1:04:06.600 --> 1:04:10.640 celebrating people who aren't getting on the horn just to 1:04:10.680 --> 1:04:14.360 point fingers and you know, call people names. I mean, yeah, 1:04:15.480 --> 1:04:18.200 some of my best friends are hunters who hunt things 1:04:18.240 --> 1:04:20.800 that I might not hunt, but I don't judge them 1:04:20.800 --> 1:04:23.840 on a personal level. That's just it doesn't it's just 1:04:23.880 --> 1:04:26.000 something I'm not interested in doing, you know. I Mean, 1:04:26.040 --> 1:04:28.480 I had a friend the other day asked me if 1:04:28.480 --> 1:04:31.360 I wanted to go bear hunting the spring, and I 1:04:31.440 --> 1:04:33.080 was like, I'll go with you, but I'd probably shreek 1:04:33.160 --> 1:04:37.360 my camera and and that's not you know, that wasn't 1:04:37.400 --> 1:04:40.920 a reflection of me judging that person for wanting to 1:04:41.000 --> 1:04:43.680 go do that. You know, the bears that they were 1:04:43.720 --> 1:04:47.200 talking about hunting are from what I understand, a very 1:04:47.200 --> 1:04:51.200 well managed population that's doing fine. It's just like a 1:04:51.200 --> 1:04:53.320 personal thing and that's not you know, I think it's 1:04:53.360 --> 1:04:55.000 so easy for somebody to say, like, you're a bad 1:04:55.000 --> 1:04:57.720 person for doing this or you do that because you 1:04:57.720 --> 1:05:00.800 hang out with these people. It's like, I mean, I'm 1:05:00.840 --> 1:05:04.480 a U. C. Berkeley train, California born ecologists who lives 1:05:04.480 --> 1:05:08.280 in Montana, you know, who is working with the hunting 1:05:08.280 --> 1:05:11.280 brand Sitka on conservation as an advisor. Like, I'm a 1:05:11.320 --> 1:05:16.320 walking contradiction, but I'm not here to judge. I'm just 1:05:16.440 --> 1:05:21.200 here to help people talk about conservation and wildlife and 1:05:21.400 --> 1:05:24.320 ecology because they care about it. And that's it. Yeah, 1:05:24.880 --> 1:05:26.720 And I think that's where a lot of your value 1:05:26.720 --> 1:05:31.200 comes into. Everyone at hunts is we you know, there's 1:05:31.240 --> 1:05:33.760 echo chambers, and there's bubbles that we live in, and 1:05:33.800 --> 1:05:36.960 there's you know, groupthink, and a lot of that happens 1:05:36.960 --> 1:05:39.360 on all sides. Right, you kind of get polarized and 1:05:39.400 --> 1:05:41.800 you get to get to everybody living in a place 1:05:41.840 --> 1:05:43.720 where everybody agrees with the way you think and then 1:05:43.800 --> 1:05:46.880 life becomes easy. And then you push back anybody that 1:05:46.880 --> 1:05:49.640 that starts to eat away at your ideology that you've 1:05:49.680 --> 1:05:52.400 formed with a group of people. You know, when somebody 1:05:52.440 --> 1:05:56.080 like you comes along says I hunt, I'd like to hunt, 1:05:56.800 --> 1:05:59.960 But I'm also a scientist and an ecologist and a biologist, 1:06:00.080 --> 1:06:04.280 and I'm from my study that UC Berkeley, and I'm 1:06:04.320 --> 1:06:07.920 a California native. There's there's a lot in there that 1:06:07.920 --> 1:06:13.640 that doesn't seem to match up. But um, the overarching 1:06:13.680 --> 1:06:16.760 point is that you care, and you care from from 1:06:16.800 --> 1:06:21.800 a pragmatic level, not from from some gend up hashtag 1:06:21.920 --> 1:06:24.560 level that just trying to make people think that you're altruistic. 1:06:24.600 --> 1:06:26.800 You truly, you truly worked that way. So I think 1:06:26.840 --> 1:06:30.480 that's a good example of why all those things can 1:06:30.520 --> 1:06:34.000 come together. Yeah, and it's you know, it's been uh 1:06:34.240 --> 1:06:37.600 since moving to Montana. It's it's, you know, I've I've 1:06:37.680 --> 1:06:42.400 learned a lot. I've I've had to, you know, study 1:06:42.840 --> 1:06:45.480 topics that I hadn't thought a lot about. And you know, 1:06:45.880 --> 1:06:49.520 one of them that keeps popping up because it's so controversial. 1:06:49.560 --> 1:06:52.760 It's like wolves and grizly bears, and there's all these 1:06:53.400 --> 1:07:00.160 perspectives and papers and voices and fears and prejudice is 1:07:00.360 --> 1:07:03.080 you know, the list goes on. And what I keep 1:07:03.120 --> 1:07:06.480 coming back to after talking with biologists who work for 1:07:06.480 --> 1:07:10.680 the state, you know, decades of experience reading science papers, 1:07:10.720 --> 1:07:14.960 reading op eds, emillion people on the West Coast talking 1:07:15.000 --> 1:07:19.520 to locals. It's it all exists on a spectrum. You know, 1:07:19.520 --> 1:07:23.880 There's there's populations that are doing really well that you know, 1:07:23.920 --> 1:07:26.439 populations of bears and wolves that are doing well. There's 1:07:26.480 --> 1:07:29.960 populations of bears and wolves that are predisposed to conflict 1:07:30.000 --> 1:07:31.920 with humans. And there's populations and bears and wolves that 1:07:31.960 --> 1:07:33.840 probably see a few humans a year or in their 1:07:33.920 --> 1:07:38.240 entire life. So again we're talking about you know, you 1:07:38.360 --> 1:07:40.720 see the headlines and it's like wolves in Montana or 1:07:40.800 --> 1:07:43.840 bears and the Greater Yellowstone. I mean, Idaho is very 1:07:43.840 --> 1:07:47.000 different than Wyoming. Wyoming is very different than Montana, and 1:07:47.000 --> 1:07:50.480 all the little pockets where these animals exist are all 1:07:50.600 --> 1:07:54.800 very different. And the individuals. Yeah, you talk to the 1:07:54.880 --> 1:07:57.760 rancher in Idaho who has wolves killing all the elk? 1:07:57.760 --> 1:07:59.600 Can you kill them all? Kill every wolf in the 1:08:00.000 --> 1:08:02.600 lower forty eight And you talked to an area where 1:08:02.600 --> 1:08:04.720 do they barely ever see a wolf, but they know 1:08:04.800 --> 1:08:08.280 they're there and they're not. There's no tangible difference between 1:08:08.320 --> 1:08:09.960 the way they were and the way they are. They 1:08:10.000 --> 1:08:13.280 may have a different opinion, but you know, I hear 1:08:13.280 --> 1:08:15.600 in the hunting circles most times kill all wolves and 1:08:15.640 --> 1:08:18.880 even even coyotes, kill all coyotes. I hear that a 1:08:18.880 --> 1:08:23.080 whole time. I'm not I'm not sure just to pragmatician 1:08:23.120 --> 1:08:25.519 in me allows would allow that. And I'm sure the 1:08:25.560 --> 1:08:28.080 ecologists and you would not allow that type of thinking 1:08:28.080 --> 1:08:31.799 because it doesn't make any sense. Yeah, and the model, 1:08:32.040 --> 1:08:34.360 the Northern American model, doesn't allow that. I mean, we're 1:08:34.360 --> 1:08:41.680 not we're not. America is not pouring money into a 1:08:41.800 --> 1:08:47.080 wholesale extirpatient of these animals. You know, it's not legally 1:08:47.080 --> 1:08:50.160 that can't happen. So for even somebody to say, let's 1:08:50.200 --> 1:08:52.400 kill them all, I mean, that's not possible. So it's 1:08:53.120 --> 1:08:55.200 you know, there's no point even talking about it because 1:08:55.240 --> 1:08:57.320 it's not gonna happen. Well, at the same point, they're like, 1:08:57.360 --> 1:08:59.200 let's protect them all and kill none of them, you know. 1:08:59.400 --> 1:09:04.160 But you know when people talk about protecting all or 1:09:04.240 --> 1:09:07.960 killing all, and and and again, like people will tell 1:09:08.000 --> 1:09:12.160 you whether they love or hate wolves. Is that packs 1:09:12.160 --> 1:09:16.920 are different. You know, there's packs of personalities. Wolves have personalities. 1:09:17.360 --> 1:09:19.600 There are some that are predisposed to certain things and 1:09:19.640 --> 1:09:21.360 some that are predisposed to other things. You know, they're 1:09:22.000 --> 1:09:26.960 just like eagles can be a specialist and eating you know, 1:09:27.120 --> 1:09:31.519 rabbits or fish. You know, same with redtail hawks. Like 1:09:31.840 --> 1:09:37.560 packs and these these different animals and populations have tendencies. 1:09:38.040 --> 1:09:39.880 So I think that's like a great place to start talking. 1:09:39.880 --> 1:09:43.080 It's like, okay, cool, Well, when we look at these ecosystems, 1:09:43.080 --> 1:09:46.640 where is the potential for conflict where management might accomplish 1:09:47.120 --> 1:09:50.439 goal A, B and C. You know, if there is 1:09:50.600 --> 1:09:55.080 a place of conflict, like we should look at solutions 1:09:55.120 --> 1:09:57.760 across the spectrum. You know, are there five solutions? What 1:09:57.840 --> 1:10:01.000 are the most pragmatic three? You know, it doesn't have 1:10:01.080 --> 1:10:02.600 to be this to kill or not to kill, to 1:10:02.640 --> 1:10:05.639 save or not to save, you know. And and also 1:10:05.680 --> 1:10:09.000 if you think about these populations, whether it's elk or 1:10:09.840 --> 1:10:14.000 wolves or song birds, again, we need to think about 1:10:14.040 --> 1:10:16.840 these populations on the order of ten years, fifteen years, 1:10:16.840 --> 1:10:19.280 twenty years. You know, they might be fine and well today, 1:10:19.920 --> 1:10:23.719 increasing your declining today, but there could be a fire 1:10:23.960 --> 1:10:25.559 like there was in yellow Stone in the eighties that 1:10:25.640 --> 1:10:28.639 burned the biggest fire on record. You know, that happens, 1:10:28.640 --> 1:10:31.240 and it changes the ecosystem. It changes the elk population, 1:10:32.120 --> 1:10:35.720 It changes the way predators interact with one another and 1:10:35.760 --> 1:10:41.400 how they prey on you know, pray, animals. Um. So 1:10:41.520 --> 1:10:46.440 it's not just you know, I think people oversimplify wildlife 1:10:46.520 --> 1:10:49.439 management to a detriment. You know, they think it's just 1:10:49.479 --> 1:10:53.559 like you do one thing and you get one kind 1:10:53.560 --> 1:10:56.840 of you know, one effect, you know, But really it's 1:10:57.360 --> 1:11:00.640 you do one thing, twenty things happen, and maybe you 1:11:00.640 --> 1:11:03.880 only can see two of those things and the other 1:11:04.720 --> 1:11:09.080 you know, the others are are muddled and confused by 1:11:09.160 --> 1:11:14.599 all the different variables in an ecosystem, you know, elevation, temperature, rainfall, snow, 1:11:14.640 --> 1:11:17.599 pack uh, you know, whatever it might be. It could 1:11:17.600 --> 1:11:20.280 be a pine beetle infestation that you know, takes the 1:11:21.920 --> 1:11:25.680 pine seeds out of the bears, you know, food availability, 1:11:25.680 --> 1:11:28.320 and that changes the way bears engaged with young elk. 1:11:30.120 --> 1:11:33.559 It's complicated. Does that make it all the more amazing 1:11:33.600 --> 1:11:36.120 to you? That are like the you know, the model 1:11:36.120 --> 1:11:39.479 of conservation wasn't a thing until the eighties. As I 1:11:39.560 --> 1:11:43.720 learned from Shane Mahoney. But does it make it all 1:11:43.760 --> 1:11:45.799 the more amazed at to you that we took this model, 1:11:45.840 --> 1:11:48.240 this idea of how we would interact with animals as hunters, 1:11:48.560 --> 1:11:52.800 applied it across the board, and it generally worked for 1:11:52.840 --> 1:11:55.120 a bunch of different species and a bunch of different areas. 1:11:55.160 --> 1:11:58.280 I mean, is that just generally people caring about wildlife 1:11:58.320 --> 1:11:59.680 across the board is going to always have a good 1:11:59.680 --> 1:12:03.280 effect or is it just just a really good system 1:12:03.400 --> 1:12:06.200 or am I just a am I engaging in group 1:12:06.240 --> 1:12:08.920 think like that? That's so great? But I know that 1:12:09.360 --> 1:12:15.559 across all these you know, wildlife species, there was success. Turkeys, elk, ducks, 1:12:15.840 --> 1:12:19.400 dear so many. They interact with the natural world so 1:12:19.520 --> 1:12:23.000 differently and in such different environments that it's crazy that 1:12:23.040 --> 1:12:28.000 they all kind of improve the way they did. Yeah, 1:12:28.040 --> 1:12:31.280 you know, I think it's I think the success that 1:12:31.320 --> 1:12:35.000 the North American model has had in in sense its inception, 1:12:36.040 --> 1:12:41.200 isn't just a reflection of the success from a wildlife perspective. 1:12:42.439 --> 1:12:45.519 The success that that we've had in the United States 1:12:46.080 --> 1:12:50.080 is a reflection of society deciding that they weren't going 1:12:50.160 --> 1:12:55.320 to let pollution continue. They weren't gonna let damns continue. 1:12:55.320 --> 1:12:59.240 They weren't gonna let blind deforestation continue. They weren't gonna 1:12:59.320 --> 1:13:02.280 let d d T continue. You know, I think the 1:13:02.360 --> 1:13:05.040 success of elk, or the success of bighorn sheep, or 1:13:05.080 --> 1:13:09.400 any kind of charismatic megafauna that we use as a 1:13:09.439 --> 1:13:14.479 metric for success in the wildlife space, success is a 1:13:14.520 --> 1:13:20.400 reflection of all the agencies, management agencies working towards a 1:13:20.439 --> 1:13:23.040 goal of protecting and preserving or public lands and these 1:13:23.120 --> 1:13:25.120 natural resources that we rely on, whether it's clean air, 1:13:25.120 --> 1:13:31.080 clean water, healthy forests, healthy wildlife. And I think society 1:13:31.120 --> 1:13:35.760 at large, you know, has decided that we want waterfowl, 1:13:35.840 --> 1:13:40.360 we want song words, we want these different things to exist. 1:13:41.000 --> 1:13:43.360 And it's not just one agency saying like, oh, we're 1:13:43.400 --> 1:13:49.280 gonna let's prevent you know, elk from going extinct, and 1:13:49.479 --> 1:13:52.439 let's do that. You know, they're here because all these 1:13:52.439 --> 1:13:56.519 other players have been at the table, putting their time 1:13:56.520 --> 1:14:00.200 and energy into their their little battles. But the the 1:14:00.360 --> 1:14:04.840 end goal, the end victory, is this holistic protection of 1:14:04.439 --> 1:14:07.639 of America, you know. And I mean if you read 1:14:07.760 --> 1:14:13.400 thorows writings about walking the East Coast, he was you know, 1:14:13.439 --> 1:14:15.719 if you read his journal entries. He was talking about 1:14:15.760 --> 1:14:18.840 how disappointed he was to the degree at which the 1:14:18.840 --> 1:14:21.200 East Coast had been degraded. You know, the swans weren't 1:14:21.200 --> 1:14:23.240 as abundant as they were fifty years before. The waterfowl 1:14:23.240 --> 1:14:25.560 weren't as abundant, you know, and that was in the 1:14:25.640 --> 1:14:30.599 eighteen hundreds. So, I mean, we have centuries of of 1:14:30.720 --> 1:14:33.120 moving the needle in the right direction, you know, whether 1:14:33.200 --> 1:14:36.799 that was women deciding they weren't gonna where egert feathers 1:14:36.800 --> 1:14:39.960 in their hats and Teddy Roosevelt carrying their plea and 1:14:40.000 --> 1:14:44.599 protecting shore birds in Florida, you know, way back when. 1:14:45.200 --> 1:14:47.920 I mean, it's been all these little initiatives that if 1:14:47.960 --> 1:14:54.840 I think, predisposed these different agencies to succeed. You know, 1:14:54.880 --> 1:14:58.440 it's been a societal thing. You know, things generally succeed 1:14:58.439 --> 1:15:04.680 when the society decides that that's the move. Um, And 1:15:04.720 --> 1:15:08.400 I think, yeah, I mean, for better or for worse, 1:15:08.600 --> 1:15:12.800 you know. And maybe I'm not educated enough to make 1:15:13.160 --> 1:15:16.880 a statement like this, but I would argue that the 1:15:17.000 --> 1:15:20.360 ivory situation and the rhino situation, the elephant situation is 1:15:21.600 --> 1:15:24.400 such a challenging one because there are so many people 1:15:24.640 --> 1:15:28.800 pushing the needle in different directions. Yeah, you know, whether 1:15:28.880 --> 1:15:31.479 it's uh yeah, So I just think there's a lot 1:15:31.520 --> 1:15:33.439 of things. Yeah, you're what you're saying is there's no 1:15:33.479 --> 1:15:37.160 agreed upon value system. There's no yea. Yeah, we all 1:15:37.200 --> 1:15:40.080 care about these elephants. Half the side just wants to 1:15:40.120 --> 1:15:41.960 kill them all for their tasks. The other half wants 1:15:41.960 --> 1:15:46.200 to save him. In this country, d percent people agree 1:15:46.240 --> 1:15:49.559 that elk should always be around. There's never any there's 1:15:49.600 --> 1:15:52.880 no doubt in that exactly. Yeah, and I think you know, 1:15:52.960 --> 1:15:55.400 we can all agree we don't want our rivers burning 1:15:55.479 --> 1:15:57.080 like they did in the fifties or forgot the name 1:15:57.080 --> 1:15:59.160 of the river. But there was that famous example that 1:15:59.240 --> 1:16:02.200 inspired the Clean Water Act. Um, I think the rivers 1:16:02.200 --> 1:16:04.600 in Ohio and it literally caught on fire in the 1:16:04.640 --> 1:16:07.160 United States. Like, wow, we have major rivers in the 1:16:07.240 --> 1:16:09.639 United States that are literally catching on fire. We should 1:16:09.880 --> 1:16:15.719 prevent pollution, you know, we should maintain healthy and clean waterways. Um. 1:16:15.840 --> 1:16:20.280 Obviously pollution is something and there's no way there's no 1:16:20.960 --> 1:16:23.719 in Africa, of course is a continent, not a country. 1:16:23.760 --> 1:16:27.200 But in countries in Africa, there isn't that same idea. 1:16:27.240 --> 1:16:29.639 There isn't that same like all these things are dying, 1:16:30.640 --> 1:16:33.040 it's up to us to save them, just because they 1:16:33.120 --> 1:16:37.080 got other stuff to worry about. The economically struggling um 1:16:37.439 --> 1:16:39.719 there are a lot of it. It's an impoverished nation. 1:16:39.800 --> 1:16:42.639 So they just don't corrupt in a lot of places 1:16:42.640 --> 1:16:46.839 down there. So that's way oversimplifying a very complicated conversation, 1:16:46.880 --> 1:16:50.439 but that is to say, there just isn't There isn't 1:16:50.439 --> 1:16:54.200 the spot like like we've shown the spotlight. Yeah, I 1:16:54.760 --> 1:16:58.040 totally agree, and that, you know, I think I think 1:16:58.040 --> 1:17:01.000 public perception is another thing that that will arises these issues, 1:17:01.000 --> 1:17:05.000 you know. And and two things that come to mind is, 1:17:05.200 --> 1:17:07.479 you know Earth Day people are always saying, let's plant trees. 1:17:08.800 --> 1:17:14.160 There's a great story taking place in Scotland where communities 1:17:14.200 --> 1:17:17.120 are being paid to cut down pine tree plantations that 1:17:17.120 --> 1:17:19.880 were planted to build ships in the nineteen and eighteen 1:17:19.960 --> 1:17:24.559 hundreds because the peat bogs that are that used to 1:17:24.560 --> 1:17:27.519 exist throughout Scotland are better it's equestering carbon than trees. 1:17:28.040 --> 1:17:30.559 So if you actually want to have an effect on climate, 1:17:30.640 --> 1:17:32.160 some of the best things you can do they're cut 1:17:32.200 --> 1:17:34.920 down these pine plantations and return them to peat bogs. 1:17:35.840 --> 1:17:40.080 In America, people say let's plant trees in a lot 1:17:40.080 --> 1:17:42.160 of places. There's more trees than there ever have been. 1:17:42.280 --> 1:17:45.400 And actually our most imperiled ecosystems are stagebrush communities and 1:17:45.439 --> 1:17:48.840 perennial bunch grass communities. So what I tell brands is like, 1:17:48.920 --> 1:17:51.400 don't do a story about planting trees. Go to a 1:17:51.400 --> 1:17:53.439 story about some guy who's planting or some gal who's 1:17:53.439 --> 1:17:57.599 planting bunch grasses and the great Plains. You know, that's 1:17:57.640 --> 1:17:59.360 going to do more for the ecosystem. That's going to 1:17:59.400 --> 1:18:03.040 be more for water retention and and and kind of 1:18:03.080 --> 1:18:06.200 overall health. Then planting a tree in a lot of places. Yeah, 1:18:06.479 --> 1:18:09.960 that's happening in all over. Are in politics and culture, 1:18:10.120 --> 1:18:13.920 like everybody to looking for the feel good, simple, easy 1:18:13.920 --> 1:18:17.320 to digest action, right that that's so, so then they 1:18:17.360 --> 1:18:19.360 can call themselves whatever they want to be. You know, 1:18:19.400 --> 1:18:21.680 if I want to be a environmentalist, I'm gonna go 1:18:21.720 --> 1:18:23.960 planet tree and hashtag at Earth Day in the alm 1:18:24.000 --> 1:18:28.360 an environmentally. If I'm if I want to be an activist, 1:18:28.360 --> 1:18:30.679 I go and I fill out my basic information into 1:18:30.680 --> 1:18:33.479 an online form that that votes in some kind of 1:18:33.560 --> 1:18:38.120 protest in ah in such a way that a million 1:18:38.160 --> 1:18:39.880 of us have done that simple act. And now I'm 1:18:39.880 --> 1:18:42.639 an activist like that. You know, it's it's not the doing, 1:18:42.720 --> 1:18:46.160 it's the acting, right, Yeah, and in acting in a 1:18:46.560 --> 1:18:50.519 from an informed place, because you know, a story that 1:18:51.040 --> 1:18:53.280 comes to mind as a friend of mine is, uh, 1:18:53.760 --> 1:18:56.679 he's part of a big expedition in in in Africa, 1:18:57.160 --> 1:19:02.000 um in Angola. It's a National Geographic fact expedition to 1:19:02.040 --> 1:19:07.360 protect the Okavango Delta. And it's an incredible story and 1:19:07.360 --> 1:19:10.719 it's incredible what they've accomplished, you know, helping to protect 1:19:10.760 --> 1:19:13.519 this this great watershed. And and he told me about 1:19:14.080 --> 1:19:18.920 coming across some poachers who had killed an elephant. And 1:19:19.800 --> 1:19:22.120 he walked up and was kind of just obviously the 1:19:22.160 --> 1:19:25.880 scene was ah, it was a sad one was troubling 1:19:25.880 --> 1:19:28.360 to see. And I asked him, as said, you know, 1:19:28.360 --> 1:19:31.840 what was that like to come across people doing that? 1:19:31.960 --> 1:19:35.280 And he said their response was, I have to feed 1:19:35.320 --> 1:19:37.760 my family. I have no other option. I realized that 1:19:38.200 --> 1:19:42.719 caringless animal is illegal. I realized it takes eco tours 1:19:42.720 --> 1:19:47.080 and dollars you know, away from the future. Uh, you know, 1:19:47.120 --> 1:19:50.720 has all these negative impacts. But you know, I need 1:19:50.720 --> 1:19:53.719 to put food in my kid's bellies. And it's easy 1:19:53.800 --> 1:19:58.240 for somebody from America to make a statement about that. 1:19:58.360 --> 1:20:01.160 And yes, you know, I think we can all agree 1:20:01.200 --> 1:20:05.080 that elephants need to be protected, you know. But I 1:20:05.080 --> 1:20:06.280 think the reason why I bring it up is that 1:20:06.320 --> 1:20:08.880 it's it's it's a complicated thing. There's a lot of 1:20:09.000 --> 1:20:12.639 drivers influencing the reality on the ground, and and those 1:20:12.720 --> 1:20:18.680 drivers very dramatically between countries and probably regions within those countries. Uh. 1:20:18.720 --> 1:20:22.280 And I think again, when we talk about wildlife in America, 1:20:22.400 --> 1:20:24.400 you know, the Southeast is very different than Texas, and 1:20:24.400 --> 1:20:26.680 Texas is very different than California, and California is very 1:20:26.680 --> 1:20:30.679 different than Montana. Um So, moving away from those those 1:20:30.720 --> 1:20:35.880 broad assumption assumptions and whether it's painting hunters is bad 1:20:35.960 --> 1:20:38.720 or good, or recreation people in their recreation space is 1:20:38.760 --> 1:20:41.519 bad or good, it's I think it's just best to 1:20:41.560 --> 1:20:44.519 promote the best examples and if there's a complicated issue 1:20:44.600 --> 1:20:47.599 like wolves, to just say it's complicated, and I don't 1:20:47.640 --> 1:20:52.400 need to give you a yes or no. Yeah, absolutely, 1:20:52.640 --> 1:20:55.720 And anybody, I mean, you think if you're anti this 1:20:55.920 --> 1:20:58.200 or that, like being anti is a very complicated thing. 1:20:58.320 --> 1:21:02.200 That's simple. We've simplified it into like this easy too 1:21:02.400 --> 1:21:05.200 easy to codify, like I'm anti this so already. Really, 1:21:05.600 --> 1:21:09.880 what the funk are you talking about? You? I'm anti milk? 1:21:09.960 --> 1:21:14.719 Like what? You can't just be anti something without having 1:21:14.720 --> 1:21:16.720 thought it through. And I always say that to the 1:21:16.840 --> 1:21:21.439 people that are self proclaimed anti hunters. You say, like, look, man, 1:21:22.080 --> 1:21:26.080 if you if you were impoverished and starving and the 1:21:26.160 --> 1:21:29.200 only way that you could live is to shoot a deer, 1:21:29.600 --> 1:21:32.679 I promise you, I promise you, unless you're an idiot, 1:21:32.760 --> 1:21:35.400 you would shoot that deer all day long and drag 1:21:35.439 --> 1:21:37.120 it off into the bushes and cut it up and 1:21:37.120 --> 1:21:39.559 eat it to survive. You just happen to live in 1:21:39.600 --> 1:21:44.639 a soft version of our human existence, whereas you can 1:21:44.840 --> 1:21:47.479 pick whether you want to eat a piece of lettuce 1:21:47.840 --> 1:21:50.200 or an orange or a piece of meat, because it's 1:21:50.240 --> 1:21:52.920 all in a nice, air conditioned building, in a maze 1:21:52.960 --> 1:21:54.360 that you walk through and pick what you want and 1:21:54.400 --> 1:21:56.840 put it in a in a basket. Like that's the 1:21:56.880 --> 1:22:00.280 only reason that really to me that human to have 1:22:00.960 --> 1:22:06.840 evolved into either vegetarians or it's selective. You're selecting what 1:22:06.840 --> 1:22:10.240 what what you want to eat based on emotionality and 1:22:10.320 --> 1:22:12.400 virtue signaling and all those types of things, and a 1:22:12.400 --> 1:22:14.840 lot of in a lot of cases. Surely there's people 1:22:14.840 --> 1:22:18.920 that eat vegetables only because of health reasons. I'm cool 1:22:18.960 --> 1:22:24.280 with that, but you gotta you gotta remember that there's 1:22:24.960 --> 1:22:28.439 especially in Africa, like you said, there's people that just 1:22:28.520 --> 1:22:32.160 do not have options. They have one option, killed to 1:22:32.200 --> 1:22:37.599 eat or die. That's that's their scenario that they live in. Yeah, 1:22:37.640 --> 1:22:41.960 and I think your point about anti hunters or non 1:22:42.040 --> 1:22:46.160 hunters or whatever, people who are anti something. You know, 1:22:46.160 --> 1:22:47.640 one of the things that I like to bring up 1:22:47.720 --> 1:22:51.960 is you can be a vegan and say that because I, 1:22:53.360 --> 1:22:56.960 you know, shot an elk bow hunting last year, that 1:22:57.240 --> 1:23:01.439 I'm bad or or whatever. You're kind of uh issues 1:23:01.520 --> 1:23:05.040 with that, you know. My response is, Okay, Well, you're 1:23:05.040 --> 1:23:08.000 a vegan and you have a shirt that's probably not organic, 1:23:08.160 --> 1:23:12.040 probably not a cotton drive. A car might be a Prius, 1:23:12.080 --> 1:23:14.920 but you have a really toxic battery in that prius. 1:23:16.040 --> 1:23:20.479 You have petroleum based tires, plastic all over the thing. 1:23:20.640 --> 1:23:23.360 You probably eat strawberries. A lot of strawberries are super heavy, 1:23:23.520 --> 1:23:26.840 require a lot of pesticides. Probably bananas. Those are wrapped 1:23:26.840 --> 1:23:32.479 in plastic um. Generally they fill creeks and rivers in 1:23:32.479 --> 1:23:34.280 Central and South America. If you've been there, you would 1:23:34.280 --> 1:23:36.559 have seen it. They go into the river, they are 1:23:36.560 --> 1:23:39.280 solid by turtles and killed tons of turtles. And you know, 1:23:39.400 --> 1:23:42.240 the list goes on. And I think it's not a 1:23:42.240 --> 1:23:44.439 an attempt to say you're bad. I'm better, But it's 1:23:45.320 --> 1:23:46.880 the worst thing we ever did for the planet was 1:23:47.040 --> 1:23:49.280 when we were born, you know. I mean, it's just 1:23:49.360 --> 1:23:53.759 a too many people on Earth situation, and everybody isn't impact. 1:23:53.800 --> 1:23:57.120 Whether you're hunting a deer eating the strawberry, you know 1:23:57.640 --> 1:24:01.800 something is dying because of that. You know, well that's 1:24:01.800 --> 1:24:04.880 something is dying. Part you wake up like we're designed. 1:24:04.960 --> 1:24:08.040 We were designed a certain way to function in this 1:24:08.360 --> 1:24:10.960 in this natural world. Like when you wake up and 1:24:11.000 --> 1:24:14.040 you start to consume things. Immediately you breathe air, you 1:24:14.200 --> 1:24:18.200 blow out carbon like you you're consuming. You're walking around. 1:24:18.200 --> 1:24:20.960 Every footstep you make has an impact, every road you 1:24:21.080 --> 1:24:23.200 drive on, every card you get it and has an impact. 1:24:23.320 --> 1:24:27.320 And there's no way it's some form of of strange 1:24:27.400 --> 1:24:32.800 kind of insanity to think that that you're lessening one 1:24:33.040 --> 1:24:37.320 your chosen version of lessening that impact is more ratualistic 1:24:37.400 --> 1:24:40.439 than than someone else, or somehow that you can you 1:24:40.479 --> 1:24:44.960 find yourself um with no guilt based on your humanity. 1:24:45.000 --> 1:24:46.680 I mean, there isn't. I mean, if you really think 1:24:46.720 --> 1:24:48.840 about it, that that's what humanity would be based on, 1:24:48.920 --> 1:24:52.320 just the guilt of having to live as a consumptive 1:24:52.880 --> 1:24:55.720 being and that's what we are. And so I'm not 1:24:56.520 --> 1:24:59.240 am I guilty about that? Yeah? Yeah, sure at some level. 1:24:59.720 --> 1:25:02.600 But find it's a better way to function if you 1:25:02.720 --> 1:25:04.880 just dive into your consumptive nature trying to figure the 1:25:04.920 --> 1:25:07.439 damn thing out. Because I certainly went from being a 1:25:07.479 --> 1:25:09.760 hunter to really want in the garden to really want 1:25:09.800 --> 1:25:13.439 to have chickens, uh not the other way around. It 1:25:13.800 --> 1:25:15.280 was like, well, hunting is is a great way to 1:25:15.280 --> 1:25:18.080 consume meat? What about what about can I do that 1:25:18.120 --> 1:25:20.160 in the same way with all the other stuff? And 1:25:20.160 --> 1:25:23.559 and I've evolved that way, and I imagine a lot 1:25:23.560 --> 1:25:25.240 of people and maybe a lot of people you know, 1:25:25.320 --> 1:25:28.120 are evolving the opposite way. They garden have chickens and 1:25:28.240 --> 1:25:31.639 realize that hunting might also be akin to what they're 1:25:31.640 --> 1:25:35.760 doing in their backyard. Absolutely, and you know, and I 1:25:35.800 --> 1:25:45.080 think I think the answer there is just that the 1:25:45.120 --> 1:25:46.840 world would be a better place of people are just 1:25:46.800 --> 1:25:49.000 little bit more thoughtful, you know, and really kind of 1:25:49.040 --> 1:25:52.439 like paused and said, Okay, these are the choices I've made. 1:25:52.479 --> 1:25:55.080 This is how I've chose to live my life. Vegan, 1:25:55.120 --> 1:25:59.479 non hunter, hunter, farmer, whatever you wanna do. And I 1:25:59.520 --> 1:26:03.760 think just thinking about those choices and the impacts of 1:26:03.760 --> 1:26:07.280 those choices is where society needs to go because a 1:26:07.360 --> 1:26:09.559 lot of people don't think about them, and that's where 1:26:09.560 --> 1:26:15.680 we get the polarizing, ah, precon preconceived notions. I think 1:26:15.680 --> 1:26:18.840 that's where we propagate divide. I think that's where we 1:26:18.880 --> 1:26:22.679 don't work together. I think that's where we create enemies. 1:26:22.720 --> 1:26:26.000 And I think the key is just saying, Okay, choose 1:26:26.000 --> 1:26:28.800 whatever you want to do, don't impose on other people, 1:26:28.880 --> 1:26:30.760 but just think about why you do what you do 1:26:30.800 --> 1:26:34.240 and how that helps the endgame of of conservation or 1:26:34.280 --> 1:26:38.000 stewardship or or whatever your mission is. And I think 1:26:38.000 --> 1:26:40.360 that's that's just a beautiful part, right that we're having 1:26:40.360 --> 1:26:42.680 this conversation. Is the beautiful part that it is that 1:26:42.800 --> 1:26:45.599 complex and it does. You can talk for a couple 1:26:45.640 --> 1:26:48.040 hours on just one little aspect of it and it 1:26:48.120 --> 1:26:51.439 can all be worthwhile. That there's no way to boil 1:26:51.479 --> 1:26:53.639 this damn thing down. You can't do it. If you're 1:26:53.720 --> 1:26:57.760 trying to do it is an exercise and just insanity. 1:26:58.120 --> 1:27:00.599 There's no way. I mean, as you said, there's how 1:27:00.640 --> 1:27:05.000 many ecosystems in Bozeman, Montana are working right now to 1:27:05.000 --> 1:27:07.800 create that environment and have it thrived. You couldn't list 1:27:07.840 --> 1:27:10.800 them all, all the different species that are that are 1:27:10.840 --> 1:27:17.639 out there cohabitating and working with us in some way. Yeah. 1:27:17.680 --> 1:27:20.120 And I think the hunting that you know has been 1:27:21.439 --> 1:27:25.280 has been really eye opening. A lot of people that 1:27:25.360 --> 1:27:28.559 I grew up with and and you know, considering my 1:27:28.600 --> 1:27:30.920 close circle don't hunt. You know, I was probably the 1:27:30.960 --> 1:27:32.800 only kid in my high school that hunted growing up. 1:27:32.800 --> 1:27:37.880 And to bring my fiancee, you know, she's an artist 1:27:37.960 --> 1:27:40.280 named Rachel Pole. She she did grew up in hunting family, 1:27:40.479 --> 1:27:44.400 and we went. She came with me almost every day 1:27:44.400 --> 1:27:49.040 of this fall, and I think she realized not only 1:27:49.640 --> 1:27:53.160 what hunting is about, that it's that it's this really challenging, 1:27:53.360 --> 1:27:59.679 exciting immersion and an ecosystem, but that sometimes some years 1:28:00.600 --> 1:28:06.559 you succeed. And to see her honor grow for these 1:28:06.600 --> 1:28:09.160 meals we're sharing with our friends and family, and to 1:28:09.200 --> 1:28:12.599 see her developed that interest in going out this fall 1:28:13.240 --> 1:28:16.280 and hunting it's a is a really exciting things. It's 1:28:16.360 --> 1:28:19.840 it's a similar reverence that you get when you grow strawberries. 1:28:19.880 --> 1:28:22.880 Strawberries are hard to grow, especially out of a greenhouse, 1:28:23.280 --> 1:28:25.920 and I have been an avid gardener for a lot 1:28:25.960 --> 1:28:28.280 of my adult life in the years that you have 1:28:28.320 --> 1:28:31.080 a good strawberry plant, I mean, you eat those strawberries 1:28:31.120 --> 1:28:33.400 with such reverence, you know, when you share them with 1:28:33.400 --> 1:28:35.639 your friends, You're like, only have four and you can 1:28:35.640 --> 1:28:36.880 have one of them. And I just want you to 1:28:36.920 --> 1:28:39.400 know that I for the last week, I've been out 1:28:39.400 --> 1:28:42.280 with my headlamp peeling slugs off my strawberry plant to 1:28:42.320 --> 1:28:45.960 make the dirt. I want to kick you and the ships. Yeah, totally, 1:28:46.000 --> 1:28:49.439 you know. And it's just it's one of my proudest 1:28:49.479 --> 1:28:52.519 moments last or two years ago, was I had the 1:28:52.560 --> 1:28:54.880 strawberry plant and friends would come over and like, Okay, 1:28:54.920 --> 1:28:56.519 don't touch that one. Don't touch that one. You can 1:28:56.520 --> 1:29:00.519 have this little one, you know, And it's it's kind 1:29:00.520 --> 1:29:03.920 of like you go on this hunter you you know, 1:29:04.080 --> 1:29:06.200 or you grow flowers in your garden, gives your mom 1:29:06.320 --> 1:29:08.360 and it's just it's such a different thing when you 1:29:08.400 --> 1:29:12.320 know what's gone into into that, you know, whether it's 1:29:12.320 --> 1:29:14.679 food or a gift or just an experience, and it's 1:29:16.000 --> 1:29:19.120 it's probably the richest part of my life is just 1:29:19.200 --> 1:29:22.680 that relationships with the land. I talked about that in 1:29:22.680 --> 1:29:26.719 the earlier podcast about where my wife specifically, I feel 1:29:26.720 --> 1:29:28.639 like I've perfected the way to cook an elk back 1:29:28.640 --> 1:29:31.960 strap or a whatever. I had this, like it took 1:29:32.000 --> 1:29:34.320 me years decade to get it to the point where 1:29:34.320 --> 1:29:36.200 I know how to do it. I like it every time, 1:29:37.040 --> 1:29:40.439 and I would go home and I'd be working late 1:29:40.439 --> 1:29:42.200 and my wife would cook up in elk steak and 1:29:42.520 --> 1:29:44.280 you know, the baby would be run around and should 1:29:44.280 --> 1:29:45.880 forget to pull it out on time, and it'd be 1:29:45.880 --> 1:29:50.200 like ten degrees uh internal temperature warmer than I would 1:29:50.200 --> 1:29:52.840 have cooked it. And I and I find myself being 1:29:52.840 --> 1:29:55.479 a bit of an asshole about that. Come on, Hannah, 1:29:55.560 --> 1:29:58.240 what are you doing? Get it together? And then I think, well, 1:29:58.280 --> 1:29:59.840 what do you Why are you so upset? And that's 1:29:59.840 --> 1:30:03.639 the reason why, because it's like this thing is important 1:30:03.680 --> 1:30:06.519 to me, it's reverent to me, and it's made me 1:30:06.520 --> 1:30:09.719 a little bit of a dick about my back scraps. 1:30:09.760 --> 1:30:11.680 And Imi even I had that conversation like She's like, 1:30:11.720 --> 1:30:14.120 what is wrong with you. I said, well, look, man, 1:30:14.200 --> 1:30:16.840 I can't go. I can't go and get this again. 1:30:17.400 --> 1:30:19.680 It's gonna be six or eight months before I even 1:30:19.720 --> 1:30:22.800 have the opportunity, and that even then it's not guaranteed. 1:30:23.880 --> 1:30:26.080 And uh, I think she understands it a little bit 1:30:26.120 --> 1:30:28.560 more now. She loves the cook game. She loves the 1:30:28.560 --> 1:30:30.960 cook game. She doesn't hunt, she doesn't have the same 1:30:31.040 --> 1:30:33.200 She loves it for the flavor and for the experience 1:30:33.240 --> 1:30:35.640 of knowing me and knowing how it died. But she 1:30:35.680 --> 1:30:38.000 doesn't have the same reverence I have for because she 1:30:38.040 --> 1:30:40.800 doesn't never experience the hardship of going to get it. 1:30:44.080 --> 1:30:47.040 And I think it's that it's that reverence and that 1:30:47.040 --> 1:30:50.840 that deep connection you have the animal that that I 1:30:50.920 --> 1:30:55.000 see in scientists and stewards and people you know across 1:30:55.040 --> 1:30:58.120 the board who identify with the natural world. You know, 1:30:58.200 --> 1:31:00.479 one of the earliest things that inspire me as a 1:31:00.479 --> 1:31:05.240 young person was fishing with my grandmother, you know, avid fisher, 1:31:05.280 --> 1:31:10.840 woman Burder, really amazing lady. And this is in San 1:31:10.880 --> 1:31:13.960 Francisco Bay where there's a lot of leopard sharks, and 1:31:13.960 --> 1:31:16.519 we're out fishing on this pier and this guy is 1:31:16.920 --> 1:31:20.120 catching leopard sharks and cutting their fins off and throwing 1:31:20.120 --> 1:31:23.680 them back in the water. And my grandmother, who is 1:31:23.680 --> 1:31:26.200 probably fifty five or sixty at the time, he kept 1:31:26.240 --> 1:31:28.240 this guy catches a leopard shark, probably a four ft 1:31:28.280 --> 1:31:31.200 leoperd shark, and my grandmother walks over. The guy gets 1:31:31.200 --> 1:31:32.920 in his face, grabs a shark out of his hands, 1:31:32.960 --> 1:31:35.040 throw it, throws it back in the water, and starts 1:31:35.040 --> 1:31:39.400 giving him an earful on respecting, you know, these animals 1:31:39.400 --> 1:31:43.360 and respecting wildlife. And my brother and I were really little, 1:31:43.360 --> 1:31:46.920 and I'll never forget seeing her do that. And I 1:31:46.960 --> 1:31:51.960 think it's that it's that realization that if we don't 1:31:52.000 --> 1:31:54.160 speak up for these animals in these places and think 1:31:54.160 --> 1:31:57.559 about that backstrap and that force that supported that elk 1:31:57.720 --> 1:32:03.720 as as our obligation to speak on their behalf, then 1:32:04.920 --> 1:32:08.040 by default they'll just slip away because these places don't 1:32:08.080 --> 1:32:10.680 have voices. Animals don't have voices of their own, so 1:32:10.720 --> 1:32:14.200 they need people like us to be out there making 1:32:14.240 --> 1:32:17.880 sure that they don't, you know, slip away. You know, 1:32:17.960 --> 1:32:20.160 I want my kids to hunt where I grew up hunting, 1:32:20.200 --> 1:32:22.519 and I know that if something was going to threaten 1:32:22.720 --> 1:32:26.080 that place, I would, you know, i'd be there, and 1:32:26.120 --> 1:32:28.000 I'm sure a lot of people feel the same way. 1:32:28.160 --> 1:32:32.360 Two hunters agreeing on animal rights? What the hell kind 1:32:32.400 --> 1:32:37.720 of podcast? What are we talking that that? As you're 1:32:37.720 --> 1:32:39.639 talking there, I was just thinking about that too, as 1:32:39.680 --> 1:32:43.559 I getting these conversations. Then you try to shape them 1:32:43.600 --> 1:32:46.640 in a way, but they go how they go. UM, 1:32:46.680 --> 1:32:49.599 And I've had more conversations doing this podcast about animal 1:32:49.720 --> 1:32:53.880 rights on a hunting podcast, then I can can think 1:32:53.920 --> 1:32:58.400 I maybe have ever had UM in any any conversation 1:32:58.439 --> 1:33:00.640 or any community I've had. So that's one of the 1:33:00.640 --> 1:33:03.320 cool things about this UM and about what you're doing, 1:33:03.479 --> 1:33:07.840 is that it's bringing to light that maybe animal rights 1:33:07.840 --> 1:33:11.080 activists and hunters are aren't all that different, or maybe 1:33:11.080 --> 1:33:14.280 that at some level of damn same thing. UM and 1:33:14.320 --> 1:33:19.120 a lot of people. So it's beautiful man. Yeah, and 1:33:19.160 --> 1:33:21.439 I totally agree with you, And I think you know 1:33:21.479 --> 1:33:24.479 one of the things that I love about the hunting 1:33:24.560 --> 1:33:28.719 industry is that by default people are are are stoked 1:33:28.760 --> 1:33:31.640 on wildlife, which is something that I miss in the 1:33:31.680 --> 1:33:35.519 outdoor recreation space because just because you're in that space 1:33:35.520 --> 1:33:38.679 doesn't mean you love animals. So I feel I feel 1:33:38.680 --> 1:33:42.680 like I'm yeah, I feel like I'm meeting a lot 1:33:42.720 --> 1:33:47.160 of people, especially in Bozeman, that are you know, uh, 1:33:47.280 --> 1:33:49.360 they're just like wildlife nerds that go about it in 1:33:49.400 --> 1:33:51.920 different ways. And I love that and I and it, 1:33:53.439 --> 1:33:55.759 you know, I think it. It brings up this point 1:33:55.800 --> 1:33:57.400 that I try to share with people, which is that 1:33:58.600 --> 1:34:01.080 you can see a picture of a a person holding 1:34:01.400 --> 1:34:05.200 a steelhead trout, a wild steelhead. I would argue that 1:34:05.240 --> 1:34:09.960 has more of an impact on the ecosystem than killing 1:34:09.960 --> 1:34:12.400 a white tailed deer. But we just have this affinity, 1:34:12.560 --> 1:34:15.599 this connection with the ant the eyes of deer, and 1:34:16.040 --> 1:34:19.599 society treats them one way. But a steelhead trout, which 1:34:19.680 --> 1:34:23.720 might come from an imperiled population that's in decline, that 1:34:23.880 --> 1:34:26.519 has trying so hard to just live, and you drag 1:34:26.560 --> 1:34:29.479 it out of the water, it gives up, which which 1:34:29.479 --> 1:34:31.600 means it's almost dying. And if you look at the 1:34:31.640 --> 1:34:35.519 physiology of catching and release, there is an impact, whether 1:34:35.560 --> 1:34:38.160 you'd like to believe it or not. UM, talk to 1:34:38.320 --> 1:34:42.120 any fish biologist about the effects of catching release on lipids. 1:34:42.280 --> 1:34:45.599 You know, I practice catching and release a lot. You know, 1:34:45.720 --> 1:34:49.400 nobody's perfect, but there's impact there. UM. And it's all 1:34:49.439 --> 1:34:52.240 about just you know, realizing we're in it for the 1:34:52.280 --> 1:34:55.439 same reasons fishermen fish. They care about waterways, they care 1:34:55.479 --> 1:34:58.760 about fish, they care about those ecosystems we hunt. We 1:34:58.800 --> 1:35:02.080 care about these animals and these ecosystems, and people who 1:35:02.200 --> 1:35:05.400 hike care about the same thing too. And and I 1:35:05.439 --> 1:35:08.080 appreciate you, and I appreciate this podcast, and I appreciate 1:35:09.200 --> 1:35:13.120 you know what you're excited to talk about because it's 1:35:13.200 --> 1:35:16.559 an indication that there's there's so much common ground, and 1:35:16.560 --> 1:35:19.200 there's so much room for progress, and there's so much 1:35:20.280 --> 1:35:23.880 a collaborative energy out there that I think it's just 1:35:23.880 --> 1:35:27.640 waiting to be tapped into. Yeah, I agree, And b 1:35:27.840 --> 1:35:30.840 I have a very, um, I don't know how to 1:35:30.880 --> 1:35:33.960 say it, a very combative relationship with catching release. So 1:35:34.040 --> 1:35:36.719 you're now for bringing that up. You're not my favorite 1:35:36.720 --> 1:35:41.320 guest because I live in a world where the grip 1:35:41.360 --> 1:35:44.479 and grim photo is like this negative thing. But the 1:35:44.520 --> 1:35:49.080 grip and the catching grip photo or the whatever the 1:35:49.120 --> 1:35:51.400 fishing catching release fishing folks do, is this like the 1:35:51.439 --> 1:35:55.280 celebrated thing that's okay? And I have not yet been 1:35:55.320 --> 1:35:58.400 able to figure out how one can wrap their mind 1:35:58.439 --> 1:36:02.879 around catching release fishing being a okay and hunting being negative, 1:36:03.040 --> 1:36:06.200 but um, I think that's probably a whole another podcast, 1:36:06.280 --> 1:36:08.840 and we're about we're about at a time, and I 1:36:08.880 --> 1:36:10.439 don't want to. I don't want to get in trouble 1:36:10.439 --> 1:36:12.800 with any of my fishing buddies because I do love it, 1:36:15.320 --> 1:36:17.840 and I'm glad to come and grab a fly rod 1:36:17.880 --> 1:36:21.639 and come to Montana and do it. But I gotta 1:36:21.920 --> 1:36:23.559 I got a few problems with you people, and will 1:36:23.560 --> 1:36:27.559 cover that next time. Yeah, I agree. I think that's 1:36:27.560 --> 1:36:31.120 a that's a whole another whole another conversation. But yeah, 1:36:31.120 --> 1:36:34.720 I appreciate all the all the good questions, and um yeah, 1:36:34.720 --> 1:36:36.960 maybe we can sit down and continue some of them 1:36:37.000 --> 1:36:40.519 down the road and go for a fish ourselves. Absolutely, man, 1:36:40.560 --> 1:36:42.280 I'm all down for that. I hope to see you 1:36:42.320 --> 1:36:44.800 before too long in Bozeman as soon as he gets 1:36:44.840 --> 1:36:47.719 hot down here in Texas. I'm going north for for something, 1:36:47.760 --> 1:36:50.320 probably fishing, So we'll get together and have that conversation 1:36:50.360 --> 1:36:53.519 while we're trying to catch tra out. Sounds good, Bring 1:36:53.600 --> 1:36:58.720 a bring some headphones and a recorder. Yeah, professional, That's 1:36:58.880 --> 1:37:02.719 that's how I'm gonna title this Wildlife Nerd Charles post, 1:37:02.800 --> 1:37:09.200 Thanks man, Happy. That sounds that sounds perfect. Okay, that's 1:37:09.240 --> 1:37:14.120 it Episode number seven in the books. Thank you to 1:37:14.200 --> 1:37:19.720 Charles post great conversation. I think, among other things I 1:37:19.800 --> 1:37:25.519 learned from Charles, just we can't stereotype people we see 1:37:25.520 --> 1:37:27.760 on the street. We can't stereotype people we see in 1:37:27.760 --> 1:37:30.280 a hunting camp. They're starting to be people like Charles 1:37:30.400 --> 1:37:32.679 who don't look the part, or don't have the history 1:37:32.680 --> 1:37:35.639 of the part, who are in our world and their 1:37:35.760 --> 1:37:40.560 voices are important, and I think Charles might be the 1:37:40.600 --> 1:37:44.720 best example of that right now. He's got unique perspectives 1:37:44.720 --> 1:37:48.400 both in science and cohabitation in the natural world, in 1:37:48.439 --> 1:37:52.000 ecology and biology, and has been trained by some people 1:37:52.960 --> 1:37:55.360 who have never hunted themselves, So I think that gives 1:37:55.479 --> 1:37:59.160 me a unique perspective on what we do. And the 1:38:01.080 --> 1:38:04.760 uniqueness of his respective is really where it's valuable. I'm 1:38:04.760 --> 1:38:07.439 not sure if uniqueness is a word or not, but 1:38:07.600 --> 1:38:11.639 that's what he is. So thanks for tuning in. Episode 1:38:11.680 --> 1:38:15.400 number seven is done. I'm done four now We're gonna 1:38:15.400 --> 1:38:18.439 see you next week with another great guest. Until then, 1:38:19.160 --> 1:38:23.280 go to the Hunting Collective dot com for articles, videos, 1:38:23.880 --> 1:38:26.519 a bunch of other stuff. The other six episodes we've 1:38:26.560 --> 1:38:30.799 done before This featuring Steve Ronella, Ryan Callahan, John Dudley, 1:38:31.200 --> 1:38:38.400 Shane Mahoney, Aubrey Marcus, and more. Check us out on iTunes, 1:38:38.439 --> 1:38:41.080 give us a review, please subscribe to tell your friends 1:38:41.080 --> 1:38:45.120 to do the same. We're also on Stitcher who We're 1:38:45.160 --> 1:38:48.479 working on some other platforms. So until the next time, 1:38:49.479 --> 1:39:03.479 thanks for joining us. We'll talk soon, mister wo