1 00:00:01,040 --> 00:00:07,360 Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, welcome the episode number seven of the un Collective. 2 00:00:07,800 --> 00:00:10,879 Speaker 1: Once again, I've been O'Brien, and today I am joined 3 00:00:10,920 --> 00:00:15,680 Speaker 1: by Charles Post. I don't know what you really say 4 00:00:15,720 --> 00:00:18,040 Speaker 1: about Charles Post other than he's not the normal hunter. 5 00:00:18,200 --> 00:00:22,279 Speaker 1: He's not the normal hunting industry professional. He's a u. C. 6 00:00:22,440 --> 00:00:30,960 Speaker 1: Berkeley training ecologist, storyteller, filmmaker and author, scientist, somebody who 7 00:00:30,960 --> 00:00:35,920 Speaker 1: studies the natural world, who studies animals and understands how 8 00:00:35,960 --> 00:00:39,400 Speaker 1: they work and how we can all better them. But 9 00:00:39,440 --> 00:00:42,840 Speaker 1: he also goes hunting too. He's not he's not a 10 00:00:42,880 --> 00:00:45,120 Speaker 1: complete rookie in the game. He lives in Bozeman, Montana. 11 00:00:45,560 --> 00:00:49,159 Speaker 1: He works with Sitka. He works as a editor for 12 00:00:49,320 --> 00:00:54,760 Speaker 1: the new magazine Modern Huntsman. He's really becoming a pretty 13 00:00:54,760 --> 00:00:57,720 Speaker 1: important voice in the hunting world from his purchase as 14 00:00:57,760 --> 00:01:01,040 Speaker 1: somebody who has a lot of science his knowledge of 15 00:01:00,880 --> 00:01:04,800 Speaker 1: the outside world. So it was a fun conversation with Charles. 16 00:01:05,800 --> 00:01:08,800 Speaker 1: He is enlightened in a lot of ways that I 17 00:01:08,880 --> 00:01:11,160 Speaker 1: am not, So it was fun to talk to him 18 00:01:11,160 --> 00:01:12,960 Speaker 1: about some of his philosophies and how he came up 19 00:01:13,720 --> 00:01:18,600 Speaker 1: about conservation, about conservation history, about the outdoor recreation community, 20 00:01:18,600 --> 00:01:21,119 Speaker 1: and their relationship with hunters, and then it's just about 21 00:01:21,120 --> 00:01:26,320 Speaker 1: how we think about our pursuits going outside. So hopefully 22 00:01:26,360 --> 00:01:28,480 Speaker 1: this is another great conversation that you will enjoy. Is 23 00:01:28,520 --> 00:01:31,440 Speaker 1: a part of this grander scheme of the Hunting collect 24 00:01:32,600 --> 00:01:46,880 Speaker 1: Episode number seven on tap Enjoy, Charles, how's it going good? 25 00:01:47,240 --> 00:01:49,840 Speaker 1: I always like to start this thing out by describing 26 00:01:49,880 --> 00:01:52,240 Speaker 1: where I am, or where we are, or where you are. 27 00:01:52,360 --> 00:01:55,120 Speaker 1: But in this case, I am in sunny Austin, Texas, 28 00:01:55,200 --> 00:01:57,960 Speaker 1: and I imagine you are in less sunny Bozeman. Is 29 00:01:58,000 --> 00:02:01,600 Speaker 1: that right? That's pretty close to it. It's spring actually 30 00:02:01,600 --> 00:02:06,080 Speaker 1: showed up here probably about two weeks ago, so it's sunny. 31 00:02:06,160 --> 00:02:09,080 Speaker 1: It's there's more sun, which is nice. It's been a cold, 32 00:02:09,240 --> 00:02:12,640 Speaker 1: dark winter. Yeah, what what is that? I mean, there 33 00:02:12,800 --> 00:02:15,120 Speaker 1: is barely any winter here. If it's thirty two degrees 34 00:02:15,160 --> 00:02:20,200 Speaker 1: in Austin, they shut the schools down. How you enjoying 35 00:02:20,280 --> 00:02:26,000 Speaker 1: the Montana winter? The Montana Winner has been awesome. I 36 00:02:26,080 --> 00:02:30,120 Speaker 1: really I think I've fallen more in love with the 37 00:02:30,200 --> 00:02:33,079 Speaker 1: season as it kind of marched on. It's that they 38 00:02:33,120 --> 00:02:36,240 Speaker 1: say it's one of the harshest winners in the last 39 00:02:36,240 --> 00:02:38,440 Speaker 1: twenty years, so we've had quite a bit of snow. 40 00:02:38,919 --> 00:02:43,800 Speaker 1: It started really falling in September, and it's snow to 41 00:02:43,840 --> 00:02:47,000 Speaker 1: two or three days ago, so it's definitely still here. 42 00:02:47,040 --> 00:02:49,880 Speaker 1: And everybody who grew up in in Bozeman talks about 43 00:02:49,919 --> 00:02:53,079 Speaker 1: these these false springs. You know, you you pull your 44 00:02:53,440 --> 00:02:56,000 Speaker 1: your shorts and your running shoes out, and then you 45 00:02:56,040 --> 00:02:58,880 Speaker 1: get a few days of sun and you kind of 46 00:02:58,880 --> 00:03:00,720 Speaker 1: get tricked into thinking and is gonna warm up? And 47 00:03:00,720 --> 00:03:03,760 Speaker 1: then it snows again for a week. So I'm trying 48 00:03:03,760 --> 00:03:06,960 Speaker 1: not to uh look too far ahead down the calendar, 49 00:03:07,040 --> 00:03:09,920 Speaker 1: but the few days of sun and forty three weather, 50 00:03:09,960 --> 00:03:13,359 Speaker 1: I've been a really nice reprieve and um, but yeah, 51 00:03:13,360 --> 00:03:15,400 Speaker 1: it's been awesome. You know, I grew up in northern California, 52 00:03:15,480 --> 00:03:18,040 Speaker 1: so I haven't this is my first year living in 53 00:03:18,960 --> 00:03:22,440 Speaker 1: a proper snowy, snowy environment, and uh that was my Yeah, 54 00:03:22,560 --> 00:03:25,200 Speaker 1: that was my next line of thought was you're in 55 00:03:25,280 --> 00:03:28,240 Speaker 1: a coologist that grew up in California and this is 56 00:03:28,320 --> 00:03:34,720 Speaker 1: you're and you're bearing the Montana winter. Yeah it's um, 57 00:03:34,760 --> 00:03:37,040 Speaker 1: it's been different. You know. One of the things that 58 00:03:37,960 --> 00:03:41,680 Speaker 1: I love about California, Northern California in particular, is that 59 00:03:43,240 --> 00:03:46,040 Speaker 1: I can go walk through most of the ecosystems and 60 00:03:46,080 --> 00:03:49,040 Speaker 1: have a pretty good understanding of when I'm looking at, 61 00:03:49,080 --> 00:03:51,920 Speaker 1: you know, the plants and animals and the geology, and 62 00:03:52,320 --> 00:03:54,120 Speaker 1: you know, I just I spent a lot of my 63 00:03:54,160 --> 00:03:57,240 Speaker 1: life out there getting familiar with those places. So it's 64 00:03:57,240 --> 00:04:00,760 Speaker 1: been really fun coming to Montana and not only having 65 00:04:00,800 --> 00:04:04,600 Speaker 1: to you know, learn a whole suite of new plants 66 00:04:04,600 --> 00:04:06,760 Speaker 1: and animals, but also, yeah, I just kind of seeing 67 00:04:06,760 --> 00:04:11,080 Speaker 1: how the seasons progress, and I really I really love 68 00:04:11,240 --> 00:04:14,720 Speaker 1: the really distinct seasons. You know, Fall has a real 69 00:04:14,840 --> 00:04:19,520 Speaker 1: distinct feeling, and winter certainly does, and spring you get 70 00:04:19,520 --> 00:04:23,400 Speaker 1: this kind of incredible proliferation of flowers, which you know, 71 00:04:23,839 --> 00:04:26,600 Speaker 1: mostly new flowers, you know for me, and and then 72 00:04:26,640 --> 00:04:29,839 Speaker 1: summers just you know, a whole different experience because there's 73 00:04:29,880 --> 00:04:32,200 Speaker 1: no ocean, so you know, you're trying to find a 74 00:04:32,320 --> 00:04:35,920 Speaker 1: river a lake to cool offen. Um. But yeah, no, 75 00:04:36,000 --> 00:04:37,800 Speaker 1: it's been it's been wonderful. I mean, one of the 76 00:04:37,839 --> 00:04:41,520 Speaker 1: greatest things about Montana just how much wildlife there is. Um. Yeah, 77 00:04:41,560 --> 00:04:44,800 Speaker 1: that's for sure. So I've been enjoying that. I was 78 00:04:45,279 --> 00:04:48,559 Speaker 1: reading a little bit about your background and know of 79 00:04:48,560 --> 00:04:52,000 Speaker 1: of your work a good bit and the first thing 80 00:04:52,040 --> 00:04:55,120 Speaker 1: that came to my mind was what was it like 81 00:04:55,279 --> 00:05:00,159 Speaker 1: to study ecology at u C. Berkeley, Because I just 82 00:05:00,240 --> 00:05:02,880 Speaker 1: I've been listening to a lot of different podcasts and 83 00:05:03,160 --> 00:05:06,039 Speaker 1: hearing a lot about how, you know, what the tenor 84 00:05:06,160 --> 00:05:08,080 Speaker 1: is now in these college campuses and how it is 85 00:05:08,920 --> 00:05:11,320 Speaker 1: changed a lot. But but studying what you did at 86 00:05:11,320 --> 00:05:13,240 Speaker 1: the place that you did, I'd just be interested to know, 87 00:05:13,800 --> 00:05:16,000 Speaker 1: as someone who's never been to that area the world's 88 00:05:16,040 --> 00:05:19,600 Speaker 1: like to study what you studied at you see Berkeley, Yeah, 89 00:05:19,640 --> 00:05:22,880 Speaker 1: you know, you see Berkeley is a pretty pretty awesome 90 00:05:22,880 --> 00:05:26,240 Speaker 1: place to to study ecology for a few reasons, and 91 00:05:26,839 --> 00:05:29,919 Speaker 1: one is that the the university was founded as a 92 00:05:29,920 --> 00:05:32,839 Speaker 1: as a land grant university, so you know, some of 93 00:05:32,839 --> 00:05:37,080 Speaker 1: the first kind of areas of focus were grazing and 94 00:05:37,200 --> 00:05:41,320 Speaker 1: forestry and and resource management. So there's definitely a pretty rich, 95 00:05:42,640 --> 00:05:47,279 Speaker 1: pretty much history of of of yeah, that type of research, 96 00:05:47,360 --> 00:05:51,440 Speaker 1: and some really uh celebrated people came out of Berkeley, 97 00:05:51,480 --> 00:05:55,480 Speaker 1: like Joseph Cornell and Luna Leopold out of Leopold's son, 98 00:05:56,440 --> 00:05:58,359 Speaker 1: So it was it was awesome because I was I 99 00:05:58,440 --> 00:06:02,080 Speaker 1: was being by people who had learned from some of 100 00:06:02,080 --> 00:06:07,039 Speaker 1: the kind of forefathers of wildlife, ecology and conservation you 101 00:06:07,080 --> 00:06:09,479 Speaker 1: know today or when I was there, and you know 102 00:06:09,520 --> 00:06:13,360 Speaker 1: the ten I finished undergraduate there in two thousand and fifteen, 103 00:06:13,400 --> 00:06:16,560 Speaker 1: I finished graduate school there. It's changed a lot, you know, 104 00:06:16,600 --> 00:06:19,320 Speaker 1: the barrier has a ton of people, but there's still 105 00:06:19,360 --> 00:06:23,640 Speaker 1: that kind of undercurrent of of conservation, you know, history, 106 00:06:23,720 --> 00:06:26,240 Speaker 1: that's that's that's kind of peppered throughout some of the buildings, 107 00:06:26,240 --> 00:06:29,400 Speaker 1: and uh, some of the old time professors are still there. 108 00:06:29,520 --> 00:06:33,080 Speaker 1: So yeah, it was it was perfect for me. You know, 109 00:06:33,120 --> 00:06:35,320 Speaker 1: I grew up just about an hour west of there, 110 00:06:36,360 --> 00:06:39,080 Speaker 1: UM where there's a lot of open space. You know, 111 00:06:39,120 --> 00:06:46,039 Speaker 1: you have the fair Lands National Marine Refuge. It's like, yeah, 112 00:06:46,120 --> 00:06:48,880 Speaker 1: right off shore, you have Point Raised National Seashore and 113 00:06:49,640 --> 00:06:51,680 Speaker 1: there's all this public land. So it was a nice 114 00:06:51,720 --> 00:06:56,920 Speaker 1: like juxtaposition of of kind of this semi urban campus experience, 115 00:06:57,240 --> 00:07:01,560 Speaker 1: you know, and then a lot of open space nearby UM. 116 00:07:01,560 --> 00:07:04,279 Speaker 1: And I think, you know, generally the ecology department there 117 00:07:04,360 --> 00:07:06,200 Speaker 1: is considered one of the top ones in the country, 118 00:07:06,320 --> 00:07:09,760 Speaker 1: especially amongst the public schools. So one of the things 119 00:07:09,840 --> 00:07:13,320 Speaker 1: I loved about it was that I was rubbing shoulders 120 00:07:13,320 --> 00:07:17,320 Speaker 1: with with kids and peers from all over the world. Um. 121 00:07:17,360 --> 00:07:23,360 Speaker 1: And I was exposed to so many different perspectives and topics, 122 00:07:23,400 --> 00:07:28,280 Speaker 1: and you know, it was a really transformative experience because 123 00:07:28,600 --> 00:07:30,520 Speaker 1: you know, you look at the courses that are available 124 00:07:30,520 --> 00:07:33,320 Speaker 1: in any given semester and you could learn about honey 125 00:07:33,360 --> 00:07:36,680 Speaker 1: bees from one of the best honeybee experts, or wildlife 126 00:07:36,680 --> 00:07:39,800 Speaker 1: biology from a you know, really celebrated wildlife biologists, and 127 00:07:39,960 --> 00:07:42,280 Speaker 1: you know, and you could really go down these rabbit holes, 128 00:07:42,960 --> 00:07:48,360 Speaker 1: which is a young kind of hungry student. It's just 129 00:07:48,400 --> 00:07:50,880 Speaker 1: there's nothing better than having options and and feeling like 130 00:07:51,480 --> 00:07:54,240 Speaker 1: if you if you something sparks your curiosity, there's a 131 00:07:54,280 --> 00:07:58,160 Speaker 1: place to go run with it. Um. Yeah. And it 132 00:07:58,240 --> 00:08:01,320 Speaker 1: was you know, it was there that I fell in 133 00:08:01,360 --> 00:08:05,200 Speaker 1: love with science and also realized that that you could 134 00:08:05,280 --> 00:08:07,920 Speaker 1: make a living being a scientist. You know, that's you 135 00:08:08,280 --> 00:08:10,360 Speaker 1: think about like bring your parents to school day when 136 00:08:10,360 --> 00:08:13,600 Speaker 1: you're an elementary school and I don't know about you, 137 00:08:14,160 --> 00:08:17,960 Speaker 1: but there were no ecologist dads or moms that that 138 00:08:18,040 --> 00:08:22,160 Speaker 1: came in. Um. So yeah. So it's kind of one 139 00:08:22,200 --> 00:08:25,360 Speaker 1: of those things where you know, I think a college 140 00:08:25,400 --> 00:08:29,040 Speaker 1: or a good mentor a good professor, they kind of 141 00:08:29,080 --> 00:08:32,600 Speaker 1: impress upon you that idea that it is a career. 142 00:08:33,160 --> 00:08:36,520 Speaker 1: And I think what kind of hooked me was a 143 00:08:36,600 --> 00:08:41,200 Speaker 1: certain presentation where this you know, it was it was 144 00:08:41,240 --> 00:08:43,280 Speaker 1: the first day of school and it was a fish 145 00:08:43,440 --> 00:08:47,440 Speaker 1: ecology course and this professor named Stephanie Carlson walked in 146 00:08:47,520 --> 00:08:49,440 Speaker 1: and she was probably in her early thirties at the time, 147 00:08:50,360 --> 00:08:57,440 Speaker 1: and she was just so passionate, so energetic, so just relatable. 148 00:08:57,720 --> 00:09:00,160 Speaker 1: You know, sometimes there's there's a there's a better fit 149 00:09:00,240 --> 00:09:02,880 Speaker 1: to being that kind of old seasoned scientists, and there's 150 00:09:02,880 --> 00:09:05,920 Speaker 1: something to be said for those young kind of yeah, 151 00:09:06,040 --> 00:09:08,880 Speaker 1: energetic scientists, and and she was. She was the ladder. 152 00:09:09,120 --> 00:09:13,600 Speaker 1: And she showed us some pictures of her graduate research 153 00:09:13,640 --> 00:09:15,640 Speaker 1: where she was with a bunch of young people in 154 00:09:15,679 --> 00:09:20,200 Speaker 1: Alaska studying salmon, and she explained how you can live 155 00:09:20,240 --> 00:09:24,040 Speaker 1: at research stations and conduct this research, and you know, 156 00:09:24,120 --> 00:09:26,480 Speaker 1: kind of the light bulbon off, and I realized that 157 00:09:27,200 --> 00:09:29,880 Speaker 1: you could actually make a career basically just walking around 158 00:09:30,800 --> 00:09:33,960 Speaker 1: the woods, are you know, any ecosystem with the clipboard 159 00:09:33,960 --> 00:09:37,800 Speaker 1: and binoculars and and study these places and and make 160 00:09:37,840 --> 00:09:41,120 Speaker 1: a living out of it. So I think Berkeley, Yeah, 161 00:09:41,520 --> 00:09:45,840 Speaker 1: that it planted that seed. So yeah, you're a professional 162 00:09:45,920 --> 00:09:51,480 Speaker 1: hunter without any without any weaponry. Yeah, I mean our tools, Yeah, 163 00:09:51,559 --> 00:09:53,880 Speaker 1: like a pencil and binoculars and some write in the 164 00:09:53,920 --> 00:09:58,160 Speaker 1: rain notebooks. Um yeah, what are the major like I 165 00:09:58,200 --> 00:10:01,080 Speaker 1: know you go through is many years studying as you 166 00:10:01,280 --> 00:10:06,160 Speaker 1: as you did there, Um, what are the major philosophies 167 00:10:06,160 --> 00:10:08,200 Speaker 1: that you came out of of that with when it 168 00:10:08,320 --> 00:10:11,800 Speaker 1: in regards to wild life and you know, our cohabitation 169 00:10:11,920 --> 00:10:14,040 Speaker 1: and some of the things, you know we talked about 170 00:10:14,080 --> 00:10:16,079 Speaker 1: in the hunting world. Where their philosophies that you carried 171 00:10:16,080 --> 00:10:18,200 Speaker 1: out of there that have that have really stuck with 172 00:10:18,240 --> 00:10:20,880 Speaker 1: you or that that you think people should should know 173 00:10:21,160 --> 00:10:24,600 Speaker 1: from from that time. Yeah, I think you know, as 174 00:10:24,600 --> 00:10:29,040 Speaker 1: an undergrad, I think I kinda fell in love with 175 00:10:29,040 --> 00:10:32,079 Speaker 1: with with science, and then as a graduate student at 176 00:10:32,160 --> 00:10:34,400 Speaker 1: UC Berkeley, working with a lot of the same professors, 177 00:10:34,440 --> 00:10:39,559 Speaker 1: I really developed kind of the the staples for being 178 00:10:39,559 --> 00:10:42,000 Speaker 1: a good scientist. And when you talked about philosophy, one 179 00:10:42,000 --> 00:10:45,120 Speaker 1: of the things that my graduate advisor, her name's Dr 180 00:10:45,200 --> 00:10:50,520 Speaker 1: Mary Power, she impressed, you know, upon the importance of 181 00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:56,920 Speaker 1: collecting notes and making observations and growing up you know, 182 00:10:57,000 --> 00:11:01,680 Speaker 1: surfing and kind of spending time outside at it. It 183 00:11:01,760 --> 00:11:05,080 Speaker 1: kind of added another layer to that experience. Because she 184 00:11:05,160 --> 00:11:07,040 Speaker 1: taught us, and I came to realize that if you 185 00:11:07,120 --> 00:11:10,640 Speaker 1: really want to be a good ecologist, you need to 186 00:11:10,760 --> 00:11:16,520 Speaker 1: master the craft of observing and taking notes and noticing 187 00:11:16,600 --> 00:11:20,440 Speaker 1: trends and then figuring out ways to put numbers to 188 00:11:20,520 --> 00:11:24,400 Speaker 1: those observations so you can use math to predict or 189 00:11:24,520 --> 00:11:29,640 Speaker 1: understand you know more about them. And for a few years, 190 00:11:29,880 --> 00:11:32,280 Speaker 1: as when I was working as a as a field 191 00:11:32,280 --> 00:11:34,960 Speaker 1: scientist and a graduate school, I mean, we're taking notes 192 00:11:35,040 --> 00:11:38,839 Speaker 1: every day throughout the day, and it's something that I 193 00:11:38,880 --> 00:11:41,000 Speaker 1: think is really shaped the way I see the world 194 00:11:41,000 --> 00:11:43,640 Speaker 1: today and shaped a lot of the ways that I 195 00:11:43,679 --> 00:11:47,720 Speaker 1: approach you know, storytelling or different topics and conservation the outdoors, 196 00:11:47,760 --> 00:11:55,880 Speaker 1: because so often people qualify your time outside by miles hiked, 197 00:11:56,760 --> 00:12:01,840 Speaker 1: days spent camping, or you know, distance climbed or speed 198 00:12:02,200 --> 00:12:07,160 Speaker 1: you know over which you covered ground, And in science, 199 00:12:08,080 --> 00:12:12,439 Speaker 1: the metric of success is how well you observes a place, 200 00:12:12,760 --> 00:12:15,760 Speaker 1: how well you understand a place, And I think there's 201 00:12:15,800 --> 00:12:19,120 Speaker 1: just such a huge difference between being a speed hiker 202 00:12:19,520 --> 00:12:23,640 Speaker 1: or you know, climb up a mountain really quickly and 203 00:12:24,559 --> 00:12:27,320 Speaker 1: really knowing that place, knowing the rhythms of the place, 204 00:12:28,280 --> 00:12:32,319 Speaker 1: understanding the patterns and the discrepancies that make a place unique. 205 00:12:33,720 --> 00:12:36,520 Speaker 1: So I think that philosophy is really just to be 206 00:12:36,600 --> 00:12:40,160 Speaker 1: an observer, and I learned that early on, and I 207 00:12:40,200 --> 00:12:42,400 Speaker 1: think that's become kind of a north star of sorts 208 00:12:42,440 --> 00:12:46,400 Speaker 1: as of kind of moved along in time. That's interesting 209 00:12:46,520 --> 00:12:50,160 Speaker 1: that I find that, you know, I don't often go 210 00:12:50,240 --> 00:12:54,560 Speaker 1: outside with the clipboard, um pen or anything like that, 211 00:12:54,679 --> 00:12:57,320 Speaker 1: but sometimes I wish I did. In fact, a lot 212 00:12:57,400 --> 00:12:59,600 Speaker 1: of times I wish I did, because there's just things 213 00:12:59,600 --> 00:13:02,960 Speaker 1: that you s maybe you don't understand even in the moment, 214 00:13:03,080 --> 00:13:06,719 Speaker 1: that that strike you as odd or strike you is compelling, 215 00:13:06,760 --> 00:13:08,920 Speaker 1: that you may if you're hunting, you may walk right 216 00:13:08,920 --> 00:13:13,040 Speaker 1: past that seen or that that animal, or that you know, 217 00:13:13,120 --> 00:13:15,640 Speaker 1: whatever is happening there that that you would you may 218 00:13:15,640 --> 00:13:18,559 Speaker 1: look further into as in a collegist, but as a 219 00:13:19,320 --> 00:13:21,800 Speaker 1: really anybody going outside or even as a hunter, you 220 00:13:21,880 --> 00:13:25,240 Speaker 1: walk right past because you're tunnel focused on on your 221 00:13:25,320 --> 00:13:29,000 Speaker 1: end goal. Um is there, you know, as you become 222 00:13:29,040 --> 00:13:31,960 Speaker 1: We'll get into a little bit of your your hunting 223 00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:34,640 Speaker 1: life later and how kind of how things have gone recently. 224 00:13:34,679 --> 00:13:39,720 Speaker 1: But have you any advice for any for for hunters 225 00:13:39,760 --> 00:13:42,000 Speaker 1: or folks that might be listening to anybody on how 226 00:13:42,040 --> 00:13:45,480 Speaker 1: to really nail down your observations in the outside world 227 00:13:45,480 --> 00:13:48,520 Speaker 1: and make them connect. Yeah. I mean one of the 228 00:13:48,559 --> 00:13:51,640 Speaker 1: things when I was in grad school, um, I was 229 00:13:51,720 --> 00:13:55,320 Speaker 1: teaching a field biology course for a few years, and 230 00:13:55,360 --> 00:13:57,120 Speaker 1: one of the things that always do with my students. 231 00:13:57,200 --> 00:14:01,240 Speaker 1: Most of them were freshmen or sophomore. A lot of 232 00:14:01,280 --> 00:14:04,800 Speaker 1: them are premed, so they hadn't actually, uh, you know, 233 00:14:05,320 --> 00:14:09,000 Speaker 1: taking an ecology course. This is generally their first time 234 00:14:09,040 --> 00:14:12,000 Speaker 1: really getting out in the field. And what I would 235 00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:15,640 Speaker 1: always do is bring them out into a you know, 236 00:14:15,800 --> 00:14:19,360 Speaker 1: a wild setting or you know, somewhere kind of away 237 00:14:19,440 --> 00:14:21,800 Speaker 1: from traffic, and you know, we'd go on a hike 238 00:14:21,880 --> 00:14:23,600 Speaker 1: or go out to some of the regional parks up 239 00:14:23,600 --> 00:14:27,800 Speaker 1: in the Berkeley Hills, and I would just kind of 240 00:14:27,840 --> 00:14:30,480 Speaker 1: put them out there and say, sit down for fifteen 241 00:14:30,520 --> 00:14:34,040 Speaker 1: minutes and just listen. Just sit against a tree and 242 00:14:34,080 --> 00:14:39,800 Speaker 1: just observe. And it's amazing how much you can glean 243 00:14:39,920 --> 00:14:44,480 Speaker 1: from a place by just actually shutting off the outside 244 00:14:44,480 --> 00:14:47,120 Speaker 1: world and focusing on what you hear and what you 245 00:14:47,200 --> 00:14:52,720 Speaker 1: see and those little subtleties, and to see them come back. 246 00:14:52,760 --> 00:14:54,440 Speaker 1: We'd sit in a circle and everybody kind of share 247 00:14:54,440 --> 00:14:59,680 Speaker 1: their observation. I think when you hear fifteen people's unique 248 00:14:59,720 --> 00:15:02,960 Speaker 1: obs rations about one place, you start to realize how 249 00:15:03,000 --> 00:15:06,200 Speaker 1: much you miss. When you're running through a place or 250 00:15:06,400 --> 00:15:09,480 Speaker 1: just focused on one thing, whether it's your bird watching, 251 00:15:09,480 --> 00:15:12,000 Speaker 1: you're you're looking for sheds, or you're looking for elk, 252 00:15:12,560 --> 00:15:14,920 Speaker 1: you know, you miss so many other little bits and 253 00:15:14,960 --> 00:15:19,160 Speaker 1: pieces that make up the ecosystem. And I think for 254 00:15:19,480 --> 00:15:23,120 Speaker 1: you know, hunters, or you know, anybody listening, you know, 255 00:15:23,160 --> 00:15:25,880 Speaker 1: one of the things that that maybe they already do. 256 00:15:26,240 --> 00:15:28,400 Speaker 1: But what I would suggest is, you know, go to 257 00:15:28,440 --> 00:15:31,360 Speaker 1: the places that you love and bring a pair of 258 00:15:31,360 --> 00:15:35,720 Speaker 1: binoculars and and really just sit and look for everything 259 00:15:35,840 --> 00:15:39,240 Speaker 1: but elk, or look for everything but dear, and start 260 00:15:39,280 --> 00:15:43,720 Speaker 1: to piece together the kind of missing threads that make 261 00:15:43,800 --> 00:15:46,800 Speaker 1: that place that you love so much and and are 262 00:15:46,880 --> 00:15:51,280 Speaker 1: drawn to, you know, all the more relatable. And you 263 00:15:51,280 --> 00:15:56,480 Speaker 1: know what my advisor told me, Mary Powers, that you know, 264 00:15:56,520 --> 00:15:59,400 Speaker 1: in thirty years of observing a place, you can really 265 00:15:59,400 --> 00:16:03,760 Speaker 1: start to understand how it changes, or how it how 266 00:16:03,800 --> 00:16:08,120 Speaker 1: it moves through time, through the seasons. And you know 267 00:16:08,160 --> 00:16:10,240 Speaker 1: what supports that idea is that if you look at 268 00:16:10,280 --> 00:16:13,280 Speaker 1: all the science papers out there the ones that are 269 00:16:13,320 --> 00:16:18,320 Speaker 1: really informing us about how our planets changing, or how 270 00:16:19,160 --> 00:16:23,200 Speaker 1: a place has changed from development or from some sort 271 00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:26,560 Speaker 1: of policy or management. Are these ten twenty thirty year 272 00:16:26,640 --> 00:16:29,880 Speaker 1: data sets? You know, you're not gonna there's there's no 273 00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:32,400 Speaker 1: science papers out there that are changing the way we 274 00:16:32,480 --> 00:16:35,080 Speaker 1: understand the world with two years of data or three 275 00:16:35,160 --> 00:16:39,960 Speaker 1: years of data. You know, these are ten decade long 276 00:16:40,200 --> 00:16:42,760 Speaker 1: data sets. And when you have that much data, then 277 00:16:42,800 --> 00:16:44,840 Speaker 1: you can really start to see something clearly. And I 278 00:16:44,880 --> 00:16:51,280 Speaker 1: think just applying you know, that simple you know, act 279 00:16:51,320 --> 00:16:57,160 Speaker 1: of observing regularly over time just will help you become 280 00:16:57,200 --> 00:17:00,360 Speaker 1: more familiar with the place and you know, allow you 281 00:17:00,400 --> 00:17:04,479 Speaker 1: to better understand how animals are changing, your trails are changing, 282 00:17:04,600 --> 00:17:08,360 Speaker 1: or have vegetations changing, which might then inform the way 283 00:17:08,400 --> 00:17:12,840 Speaker 1: that you move about the land or or pursue certain animals, 284 00:17:12,920 --> 00:17:15,640 Speaker 1: or or just kind of you know, how you experienced 285 00:17:15,720 --> 00:17:19,640 Speaker 1: that place. Um, you know, and binoculars obviously a lot 286 00:17:19,680 --> 00:17:22,800 Speaker 1: of you know, most hunters have a good pair of binoculars. 287 00:17:22,800 --> 00:17:27,480 Speaker 1: But another thing that I've done, which is super nerdy 288 00:17:27,560 --> 00:17:29,560 Speaker 1: and probably people will laugh at when they hear me 289 00:17:29,600 --> 00:17:31,720 Speaker 1: say this out loud, but I'm totally up for it. 290 00:17:32,320 --> 00:17:35,960 Speaker 1: Um is you know, get like a little zoom mike, 291 00:17:36,600 --> 00:17:39,480 Speaker 1: you know, just like a little recorder, plug in your 292 00:17:39,480 --> 00:17:42,280 Speaker 1: headphones and turn up the volume and go out in 293 00:17:42,280 --> 00:17:44,359 Speaker 1: the woods and just turn up the volume. And you 294 00:17:44,400 --> 00:17:48,200 Speaker 1: can hear so much that you never would have heard 295 00:17:48,280 --> 00:17:50,919 Speaker 1: because our ears just don't pick it up. You know, 296 00:17:51,040 --> 00:17:53,959 Speaker 1: the super high and the super low sounds that our 297 00:17:54,040 --> 00:17:58,280 Speaker 1: ears can't you know, literally are not able to pick up, 298 00:17:58,800 --> 00:18:01,480 Speaker 1: you will hear. And it just adds this incredibly rich 299 00:18:01,640 --> 00:18:06,800 Speaker 1: kind of layer to a place. Um. Yeah, people might 300 00:18:06,800 --> 00:18:08,560 Speaker 1: make fun of you for walking around the forest with 301 00:18:09,119 --> 00:18:13,400 Speaker 1: phones and a little record. Man, you're describing very very 302 00:18:13,520 --> 00:18:18,440 Speaker 1: hippie ideas. Here a circle describe describe what you see 303 00:18:19,560 --> 00:18:22,000 Speaker 1: hold up for a quarter. But I I would be 304 00:18:22,040 --> 00:18:24,439 Speaker 1: totally down for that. And a good example of that 305 00:18:24,560 --> 00:18:27,280 Speaker 1: is sitting in a turkey blind in Florida a couple 306 00:18:27,280 --> 00:18:30,080 Speaker 1: of days ago. Well, we had a couple of rookie 307 00:18:30,160 --> 00:18:33,560 Speaker 1: hunters in there, and um, they kind of wouldn't shut 308 00:18:33,600 --> 00:18:36,600 Speaker 1: up the whole time, and I had to tell him, hey, 309 00:18:36,640 --> 00:18:39,200 Speaker 1: listen and here's what to listen for as a turkey hunter. 310 00:18:39,240 --> 00:18:42,080 Speaker 1: Listen for an owl, listen for a crow, and listen 311 00:18:42,080 --> 00:18:46,000 Speaker 1: for thunder. I mean, these are things that all might 312 00:18:46,119 --> 00:18:48,600 Speaker 1: end in a turkey gobble, and even just that small 313 00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:52,560 Speaker 1: realization to them that if you listen, you might not 314 00:18:52,680 --> 00:18:55,680 Speaker 1: hear a gobble every time, but you might understand what 315 00:18:55,680 --> 00:18:59,119 Speaker 1: what evokes a gobble, or what proceeds one or what 316 00:18:59,160 --> 00:19:02,520 Speaker 1: follows wanted understand what it all means a little bit more, 317 00:19:02,760 --> 00:19:05,920 Speaker 1: or just observing a hen with a lone hen walking 318 00:19:05,960 --> 00:19:08,119 Speaker 1: around a food plot, I can tell you a lot 319 00:19:08,160 --> 00:19:12,879 Speaker 1: about turkeys and their mannerisms. Yeah, you're exactly right, and 320 00:19:12,960 --> 00:19:15,240 Speaker 1: that that was just a bunch of hunters. I wondered 321 00:19:15,280 --> 00:19:17,840 Speaker 1: how much I would know about crow behavior, our behavior 322 00:19:17,880 --> 00:19:20,080 Speaker 1: in the turkey woods if it wasn't for turkeys. But 323 00:19:20,160 --> 00:19:22,439 Speaker 1: I certainly know as much as as anybody would know 324 00:19:22,920 --> 00:19:25,520 Speaker 1: about how that would relate to turkeys. Maybe not the 325 00:19:25,640 --> 00:19:29,720 Speaker 1: entire ecosystem, but but it's a start. Yeah, And I 326 00:19:29,720 --> 00:19:31,480 Speaker 1: think that's you know, so much of it. There's a 327 00:19:31,600 --> 00:19:33,800 Speaker 1: there's a book that really inspired me called The Great 328 00:19:33,800 --> 00:19:38,159 Speaker 1: Animal Orchestra by a guy named Bernie Krauss, highly recommended, 329 00:19:38,200 --> 00:19:40,639 Speaker 1: and it's all about the ecology of sound and what 330 00:19:41,560 --> 00:19:45,240 Speaker 1: he argues, which I believe, and I think the science 331 00:19:45,240 --> 00:19:48,920 Speaker 1: community at large is is accepting, is that we can 332 00:19:48,960 --> 00:19:51,880 Speaker 1: go do a walk through a forest with a bunch 333 00:19:51,880 --> 00:19:53,960 Speaker 1: of biologists, right and you know, you have a bird 334 00:19:53,960 --> 00:19:57,960 Speaker 1: biologist and a tree biologists, and you know somebody who's 335 00:19:58,000 --> 00:20:02,240 Speaker 1: a specialist on mammals, and we can get our clipboards 336 00:20:02,240 --> 00:20:04,480 Speaker 1: and make our observations and and do our best to 337 00:20:04,480 --> 00:20:08,680 Speaker 1: do a survey of the wildlife and the vegetative community, 338 00:20:08,840 --> 00:20:11,560 Speaker 1: and we'll come back and collect that data. You can 339 00:20:11,600 --> 00:20:18,320 Speaker 1: then go through that same ecosystem with precise audio equipment 340 00:20:19,680 --> 00:20:21,919 Speaker 1: and you will pick up so much more than our 341 00:20:21,960 --> 00:20:24,720 Speaker 1: eyes ever will. So what he presents in this book 342 00:20:24,880 --> 00:20:28,080 Speaker 1: is this idea that for example, a case study he 343 00:20:28,160 --> 00:20:31,400 Speaker 1: uses is that you know, sometimes people will come into 344 00:20:31,400 --> 00:20:33,360 Speaker 1: a forest and say, we're gonna do selective logging. We're 345 00:20:33,359 --> 00:20:36,080 Speaker 1: gonna pull fifteen trees out of this place, and it's 346 00:20:36,119 --> 00:20:38,920 Speaker 1: not going to have any impact, will be supersensitive. We'll 347 00:20:38,920 --> 00:20:40,720 Speaker 1: do it in this way, in that way to ensure 348 00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:44,560 Speaker 1: that you know that the community at large is protected. 349 00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:49,639 Speaker 1: And he has amazing before and after audio data. You know, 350 00:20:49,680 --> 00:20:53,920 Speaker 1: if you look at a an acoustic sonograph and you 351 00:20:53,960 --> 00:20:56,719 Speaker 1: can see all the different calls of all the different birds, 352 00:20:57,560 --> 00:21:00,359 Speaker 1: you can actually visually, there might be no difference. You 353 00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:05,320 Speaker 1: look at that that soundscape, and there's a really distinct difference. UM. 354 00:21:05,440 --> 00:21:07,520 Speaker 1: So it's kind of interesting because you know, eyes only 355 00:21:07,520 --> 00:21:09,399 Speaker 1: tell us so much, but like you're saying, our ears 356 00:21:09,440 --> 00:21:11,639 Speaker 1: are such a big part of that as well. You know, 357 00:21:11,680 --> 00:21:14,400 Speaker 1: there's a lot of things you'll never you'll never see, 358 00:21:14,480 --> 00:21:17,320 Speaker 1: but you'll hear. And he points out, you know, maybe 359 00:21:17,320 --> 00:21:20,280 Speaker 1: we should listen more closely, um, if we really hope 360 00:21:20,280 --> 00:21:22,560 Speaker 1: to understand how these ecosystems are changing or how we're 361 00:21:22,560 --> 00:21:28,520 Speaker 1: affecting them. But it's pretty cool book, it's a great point. 362 00:21:28,520 --> 00:21:31,359 Speaker 1: We'll check that out. Um. As you're talking, I was 363 00:21:31,400 --> 00:21:34,760 Speaker 1: just thinking about your point about thirty years of data 364 00:21:34,840 --> 00:21:40,119 Speaker 1: really having a total taring, like a total effect on 365 00:21:40,160 --> 00:21:43,000 Speaker 1: how we think, Like we're not we can't really make 366 00:21:43,040 --> 00:21:46,720 Speaker 1: any decisions or assumptions about how we affect the natural 367 00:21:46,760 --> 00:21:49,960 Speaker 1: world in such a short time. And you think about 368 00:21:50,080 --> 00:21:53,000 Speaker 1: the idea of conservation in America, it's not that old. 369 00:21:53,080 --> 00:21:56,160 Speaker 1: I mean, it's three times thirty maybe, UM, a little 370 00:21:56,160 --> 00:21:58,159 Speaker 1: bit more than that. I mean, at the turn of 371 00:21:58,160 --> 00:22:00,080 Speaker 1: the century we really started to see those id he 372 00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:04,520 Speaker 1: is codifying and becoming a thing. You know, what's your 373 00:22:04,560 --> 00:22:09,520 Speaker 1: idea of of our model conservation and it's relatively young, 374 00:22:09,640 --> 00:22:13,120 Speaker 1: the grand scheme of the natural world, And as an ecologist, 375 00:22:13,119 --> 00:22:17,080 Speaker 1: do you look at the act differently or the plan differently, 376 00:22:17,160 --> 00:22:19,320 Speaker 1: or the way that we have set this all up 377 00:22:19,320 --> 00:22:22,920 Speaker 1: in North America or at least in the States. Yeah, 378 00:22:22,960 --> 00:22:24,679 Speaker 1: it's a great question. I mean, I think, you know, 379 00:22:24,720 --> 00:22:28,880 Speaker 1: one of the recurring thoughts to have about the North 380 00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:33,040 Speaker 1: American model and conservation in general, is that we have 381 00:22:33,119 --> 00:22:38,840 Speaker 1: to think about the landscape of conservation and the currency 382 00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:41,600 Speaker 1: of conservation, and for better or for worse, if you're 383 00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:45,720 Speaker 1: a scientist, your currency is publishing a paper, and a 384 00:22:45,760 --> 00:22:49,320 Speaker 1: lot of papers rely on data sets that are collected 385 00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:52,919 Speaker 1: over a PhD or a master's degree, or over a 386 00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:55,399 Speaker 1: ten year which you know, maybe you work for a 387 00:22:55,440 --> 00:23:01,760 Speaker 1: certain department for eight or ten years. Um. So the 388 00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:04,720 Speaker 1: way that we're managing wildlife are oftentimes informed by these 389 00:23:04,720 --> 00:23:08,760 Speaker 1: shorter data sets, which in some cases the best we 390 00:23:08,800 --> 00:23:12,280 Speaker 1: can do. But I think it's important to to just 391 00:23:12,520 --> 00:23:16,919 Speaker 1: keep in mind that if we're looking at a place 392 00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:21,159 Speaker 1: and over the course of ten years, we might be 393 00:23:21,280 --> 00:23:25,360 Speaker 1: missing a lot. And especially now with the way are 394 00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:28,679 Speaker 1: you know, planets changing from development and different kind of 395 00:23:28,760 --> 00:23:35,400 Speaker 1: human and influenced pressures. We can't forget that twenty years 396 00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:37,160 Speaker 1: from now is going to be very different than twenty 397 00:23:37,240 --> 00:23:44,560 Speaker 1: years ago. And instead of thinking about conservation or goals 398 00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:47,440 Speaker 1: and a static sense you know, this is our goal 399 00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:50,320 Speaker 1: and wants to accomplish it, we're good, you know, we 400 00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:53,840 Speaker 1: need to, I think, look at conservation metrics in a 401 00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:55,760 Speaker 1: very plastic way, you know, we need to look at 402 00:23:55,760 --> 00:23:58,639 Speaker 1: them as benchmarks that have a plus or mindus, like 403 00:23:58,640 --> 00:24:02,000 Speaker 1: a standard deviation, right, like the room to wiggle. Because 404 00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:06,320 Speaker 1: the second we wrap our hearts and minds around a 405 00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:13,159 Speaker 1: very static, singular goal, we basically lose sight of the 406 00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:17,960 Speaker 1: fact that ecosystems change in time. They're constantly changing, whether 407 00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:22,440 Speaker 1: it's succession or whether it's humans. You know, like a 408 00:24:23,119 --> 00:24:26,800 Speaker 1: mountain range could be free of jeep roads today and 409 00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:28,480 Speaker 1: in two years there's gonna be a jeep road going 410 00:24:28,520 --> 00:24:30,439 Speaker 1: through it, and that's going to totally change the way 411 00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:34,000 Speaker 1: wildlife move about the land and the way that our 412 00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:37,320 Speaker 1: impact exists or doesn't exist on the land. So I 413 00:24:37,359 --> 00:24:39,840 Speaker 1: think one of the things to consider, you know, when 414 00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:45,560 Speaker 1: we talk about wildlife, we talk about um bag limits 415 00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:50,399 Speaker 1: or or seasons is that ten years from now is 416 00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:52,760 Speaker 1: gonna be very different than today. And I think it's just, yeah, 417 00:24:52,760 --> 00:24:57,200 Speaker 1: it's important to to not only plan ahead and realize 418 00:24:57,240 --> 00:25:03,840 Speaker 1: there's some unknown but also realized that conservation exists on 419 00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:06,840 Speaker 1: a metric of of of good and could be better, 420 00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:09,080 Speaker 1: you know, And I think it's always room to improve 421 00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:16,119 Speaker 1: um and also that conservation. People will talk about conservation 422 00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:19,800 Speaker 1: north America, are conservation in Canada? Are conservation in Africa. 423 00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:27,439 Speaker 1: Conservation exists, in my opinion, on a specific place in 424 00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:32,520 Speaker 1: a specific time, and oftentimes they're not comparable to one another. 425 00:25:32,760 --> 00:25:36,840 Speaker 1: You know, Texas Conservations is inherently different than Idaho. Idaho 426 00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:39,520 Speaker 1: is different than Alberta. Alberta is different than Kenya. Kenya 427 00:25:39,560 --> 00:25:43,000 Speaker 1: is different than Zibabwe. So you see these headlines or 428 00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:48,120 Speaker 1: some of these kind of you know, kind of far 429 00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:51,960 Speaker 1: reaching assumptions or claims, and I think it just takes 430 00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:56,240 Speaker 1: away from the beauty of science, right like or a 431 00:25:56,480 --> 00:25:59,520 Speaker 1: or a wildlife manager. You know, these people are experts 432 00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:02,000 Speaker 1: in their population, in their park, in their region, and 433 00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:06,000 Speaker 1: they're part of the state um and the realities on 434 00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:09,359 Speaker 1: the ground are all very different. So, you know, I 435 00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:13,080 Speaker 1: think you can have these overarching models of conservation. But 436 00:26:13,119 --> 00:26:15,439 Speaker 1: I think it's really important to consider that, you know, 437 00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:19,800 Speaker 1: Eastern Montana is very different in Western Montana. Um and 438 00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:22,719 Speaker 1: wildlife and conservation succession to be looked at through that 439 00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:26,520 Speaker 1: particular lens. Yeah, I think that's important. And you know, 440 00:26:26,760 --> 00:26:31,280 Speaker 1: in our model conservation, that's what they say states control 441 00:26:31,320 --> 00:26:34,680 Speaker 1: the wildlife and and science controls the quotas and how 442 00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:38,200 Speaker 1: we how we manage those things, which which always made 443 00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:40,879 Speaker 1: a lot of sense to me, and I think inside 444 00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:42,880 Speaker 1: of that model, the federal government plays a pretty good, 445 00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:46,240 Speaker 1: pretty good role, one to to manage the funds that 446 00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:48,720 Speaker 1: come from some of the resources that we put into it, 447 00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:50,840 Speaker 1: but then also to manage our public lands and make 448 00:26:50,840 --> 00:26:53,879 Speaker 1: sure those places are there for everybody, um in a 449 00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:56,480 Speaker 1: way that that we know only they can. So that's 450 00:26:56,520 --> 00:27:00,119 Speaker 1: those are those are good points. Do you imagine the 451 00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:04,439 Speaker 1: term conservation will shift over time? I mean, really a 452 00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:06,240 Speaker 1: good example I think it is probably the wild turkey 453 00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:08,280 Speaker 1: or even the white tailed deer. I mean, the n 454 00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:11,280 Speaker 1: w t F kind of came of age. National Turkey 455 00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:14,359 Speaker 1: Federation came of age to save the turkey and save 456 00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:17,639 Speaker 1: its habitat. And I think we could probably all agree 457 00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:21,800 Speaker 1: that the turkeys fairly saved. They're they're everywhere. Uh, the 458 00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:24,200 Speaker 1: same with the white tailed deer. The white tailed deers 459 00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:27,840 Speaker 1: is needed saving at some point, now probably not so much, 460 00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:32,639 Speaker 1: probably more needs managing the overall sense. Yeah, what do 461 00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:35,080 Speaker 1: you imagine that those those things change over time and 462 00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:37,280 Speaker 1: that maybe at some point in this in this country 463 00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:42,120 Speaker 1: white tail deal will again be um in need of 464 00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:45,720 Speaker 1: of saving or turkeys will be in need of saving, 465 00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:47,600 Speaker 1: but they aren't currently. So how do you manage those 466 00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:51,359 Speaker 1: ideas as they flow through time. It's a great question, 467 00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:52,879 Speaker 1: I mean. And one of the things that you know, 468 00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:55,880 Speaker 1: I think about is that there's never been more white 469 00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:59,000 Speaker 1: tailed deer than there are today. And there's a lot 470 00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:02,160 Speaker 1: of reasons for that. Uh. One is a lack of predators. 471 00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:05,480 Speaker 1: One is the fact that are super flexible animal that 472 00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:12,840 Speaker 1: can take advantage of you know, suburban or semi urban environments. Um. 473 00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:14,639 Speaker 1: You know, So I think at white tailed deer and 474 00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:17,960 Speaker 1: I think about the fact that they're kicking out mule 475 00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:21,840 Speaker 1: deer in some systems. So when when do we get 476 00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:25,240 Speaker 1: to a point where managers are forced to recognize that 477 00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:29,680 Speaker 1: white tailed deer might be almost an invasive species where 478 00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:34,920 Speaker 1: they're moving into a historically mule deer ecosystem, kicking them 479 00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:37,840 Speaker 1: out just because we've kind of given them a leg 480 00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:42,360 Speaker 1: up and a chance to do that. Um. And I think, 481 00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:46,640 Speaker 1: you know, white tailed deer, we can manage them, can 482 00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:49,520 Speaker 1: serve them. But I think there's a difference between managing 483 00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:54,600 Speaker 1: for a species and managing for the ecosystem. And I 484 00:28:54,600 --> 00:29:00,160 Speaker 1: think conservation hopefully will move more towards managing the ecosystem. 485 00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:04,920 Speaker 1: You know, obviously, these these deer and turkey and elka 486 00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:07,640 Speaker 1: would bring a lot of people out into nature to 487 00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:12,240 Speaker 1: hunt them and pursue them and watch them and photograph them. 488 00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:16,640 Speaker 1: But there's a fine line between managing for one species 489 00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:21,400 Speaker 1: and managing for an ecosystem. And I think you know, 490 00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:23,200 Speaker 1: with you know, we live in a time right now, 491 00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:26,600 Speaker 1: it's the sixth mass extinction, but you know, there animals 492 00:29:26,640 --> 00:29:28,680 Speaker 1: are going extinct a hundred to a thousand times faster 493 00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:32,240 Speaker 1: than they would be naturally without humans, and we're losing 494 00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:36,160 Speaker 1: you know, species across North America. You know, the monarch butterfly, 495 00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:40,640 Speaker 1: you know that's imperiled. There's obviously not a community of 496 00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:43,600 Speaker 1: diehard monarch stewards like there are for folks who are 497 00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:46,800 Speaker 1: passionate about white tailed deer, but maybe that should be 498 00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:49,560 Speaker 1: a metric for white tailed deer habitat. You know, if 499 00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:54,200 Speaker 1: we want a healthy ecosystem to support healthy deer, we 500 00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:57,040 Speaker 1: should be thinking about you know, the fish and the 501 00:29:57,080 --> 00:30:01,600 Speaker 1: waterways and the butterflies and the song birds. And if 502 00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:05,480 Speaker 1: we only manage whitetail deer, they might get to a 503 00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:10,080 Speaker 1: point where they're over graze and repairing corridors, which doesn't 504 00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:16,640 Speaker 1: help songbirds and insects that need those habitats to thrive. Um. 505 00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:20,760 Speaker 1: You know. So I think the initial conservation mindset was like, 506 00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:24,760 Speaker 1: let's save the white tail deer because they're being extirpated. 507 00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:28,240 Speaker 1: Let's you know, save grizzly bearers because they've been extrapated. 508 00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:32,360 Speaker 1: Let's save bighorn cheap because they're, you know, being extrapated. 509 00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:34,560 Speaker 1: And I think today, I think we've done a pretty 510 00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:37,600 Speaker 1: good job of establishing some of those seed populations and 511 00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:41,960 Speaker 1: at least stabilizing some of the strongholds. Um. But the 512 00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:44,440 Speaker 1: kind of animals on the periphrey plants and animals on 513 00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:47,719 Speaker 1: the periphrey that don't have the the you know, Monerich 514 00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:52,600 Speaker 1: Butterfly Foundation or the laz Light Bunting Foundation, you know, 515 00:30:53,120 --> 00:30:55,880 Speaker 1: they need some love too, So I think that more foundations. 516 00:30:55,880 --> 00:31:02,280 Speaker 1: You're telling me we need more foundations wildlife foundations, Oh gosh, 517 00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:05,360 Speaker 1: it would I mean, selfishly, I think it'd be amazing 518 00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:08,920 Speaker 1: if there were little communities of people passionate about, you know, 519 00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:14,240 Speaker 1: all the kind of less charismatic flora and fauna. I mean, 520 00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:16,520 Speaker 1: And there are you know, I mean American kestrals they're 521 00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:19,320 Speaker 1: in decline, and there's I personally know people who are 522 00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:23,280 Speaker 1: totally passionate about American kestrals, building nest box like the boring, 523 00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:29,120 Speaker 1: the boring animal Society of America. Yeah, the boring animals 524 00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:30,560 Speaker 1: to the masses. But you know, one of the things 525 00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:33,440 Speaker 1: I always tell people is that and this, you know, 526 00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:36,600 Speaker 1: I would argue this is this is true. Behind almost 527 00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:41,000 Speaker 1: every species, plant or animal, there is a grad student, 528 00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:46,360 Speaker 1: an undergrad, a scientist, a biologist, somebody out there who's 529 00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:50,160 Speaker 1: dedicated their life and so much of their time to 530 00:31:50,360 --> 00:31:53,479 Speaker 1: the preservation of that organism. Which gives me a lot 531 00:31:53,520 --> 00:31:56,440 Speaker 1: of hope, you know, because when I was in grad school, 532 00:31:56,560 --> 00:31:59,280 Speaker 1: I would go to a seminar, go have lunch with folks, 533 00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:01,600 Speaker 1: and you'd sit down next to a kid who was 534 00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:04,360 Speaker 1: obsessed about this certain species of allergy, and you'd sit 535 00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:07,479 Speaker 1: next to a girl who was obsessed with this certain 536 00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:11,640 Speaker 1: type of alpine flower, and you know, while there might 537 00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:14,520 Speaker 1: not be a foundation for that alpine flower, there's definitely 538 00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:18,000 Speaker 1: somebody who's pouring their heart and soul into that and 539 00:32:18,240 --> 00:32:22,360 Speaker 1: that species preservation, which is a pretty cool thing. Yeah, No, 540 00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:25,120 Speaker 1: that that paints a pretty good picture, pretty good tapestry 541 00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:27,680 Speaker 1: of a bunch of people that care about wildlife and 542 00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:30,520 Speaker 1: wanted to thrive and in many different ways. UM. And 543 00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:32,840 Speaker 1: this goes back to I had Shane Mahoney on the 544 00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:36,560 Speaker 1: podcast here a couple of weeks ago, and part of 545 00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:38,640 Speaker 1: our conversation was, you know, what can hunters do better 546 00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:42,240 Speaker 1: too to represent what what they feel? And one of 547 00:32:42,280 --> 00:32:45,680 Speaker 1: his points was, we can better present represent our caring 548 00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:48,760 Speaker 1: for wild life in its totality, the things, the things 549 00:32:48,800 --> 00:32:51,040 Speaker 1: that we don't hunt, the things that we don't we 550 00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:55,680 Speaker 1: don't see ourselves as necessarily stewards of UM. We can 551 00:32:55,800 --> 00:32:58,040 Speaker 1: represent that in a way much to what you're saying 552 00:32:58,520 --> 00:33:01,160 Speaker 1: that makes sense across the board and just says we 553 00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:03,680 Speaker 1: care about nature and not just about the well being 554 00:33:03,720 --> 00:33:07,560 Speaker 1: of the things that we kill and need. UM And 555 00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:11,440 Speaker 1: and at some level worship you know, we worship elk 556 00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:14,840 Speaker 1: and deer and not so much other things. And I 557 00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:16,480 Speaker 1: didn't you even see that in the hunting world. You 558 00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:20,960 Speaker 1: see that um anti hunters or non hunters are okay 559 00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:22,640 Speaker 1: with seeing a duck get shot in the face a 560 00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:25,040 Speaker 1: lot of times, but they're not or a turkey, but 561 00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:27,320 Speaker 1: they're not so okay with watching an elk get shot 562 00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:31,240 Speaker 1: and die. And so you just see kind of everybody 563 00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:34,280 Speaker 1: has their own biases, but hunters, as folks that are 564 00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:37,040 Speaker 1: consumptive users or wildlife, certainly could do better at at 565 00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:40,080 Speaker 1: caring about everything rather than just what we what we 566 00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:43,160 Speaker 1: chase around. Yeah, and I mean, I think, you know, 567 00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:45,680 Speaker 1: two points come to mind, and one is that these 568 00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:50,400 Speaker 1: animals that hunters might identify with, whether it's doc or 569 00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:55,400 Speaker 1: turkey or big horner or elk, those animals exist because 570 00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:59,440 Speaker 1: the ecosystem exists. And the ecosystem exists because the butterflies 571 00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:01,800 Speaker 1: pollinate the plants, and the birds pond at the plants, 572 00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:06,520 Speaker 1: and the Clark's nutcracker disperses the seeds that feed the bear, 573 00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:11,080 Speaker 1: you know, And we can't without if there's not a 574 00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:14,760 Speaker 1: healthy ecosystem that the species that we love and pursue 575 00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:18,920 Speaker 1: won't thrive. So I think it's whether or not we 576 00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:22,480 Speaker 1: really have a personal relationship or affinity to a butterfly 577 00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:26,799 Speaker 1: or you know, to a squirrel that bury a lot 578 00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:29,480 Speaker 1: of acorns that feed a lot of white tail um. 579 00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:31,000 Speaker 1: You know, they grow up into trees and feed the 580 00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:37,000 Speaker 1: forest with Without that squirrel dispersing the acorns, we're not 581 00:34:37,040 --> 00:34:42,399 Speaker 1: going to have healthy oak forests that feed healthy deer populations. Yeah, 582 00:34:42,480 --> 00:34:45,160 Speaker 1: and there's been there's been anti hunters or you know, 583 00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:48,080 Speaker 1: animal rights activists in the past, going all the way 584 00:34:48,080 --> 00:34:51,520 Speaker 1: back into the sixties that say conservation is an idea 585 00:34:52,040 --> 00:34:56,120 Speaker 1: created too you know, pull the wool over everybody's eyes 586 00:34:57,000 --> 00:34:59,560 Speaker 1: for hunters, you know, it's it's a it's a term 587 00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:03,000 Speaker 1: that allows us to to be altruistic in a sense, 588 00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:05,959 Speaker 1: but also we're just doing it for our own personal gain, 589 00:35:06,040 --> 00:35:07,920 Speaker 1: So we're only being we're only saving elk so we 590 00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:10,759 Speaker 1: can kill them um. And a lot of these animal 591 00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:13,719 Speaker 1: rights activity even going back to guys like Joseph would 592 00:35:14,160 --> 00:35:17,920 Speaker 1: kurtsed back in um in the sixties in the in 593 00:35:17,960 --> 00:35:20,480 Speaker 1: the height of the beginning of the hs U s 594 00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:24,640 Speaker 1: talking about animal rights being the way and conservation being 595 00:35:24,680 --> 00:35:26,719 Speaker 1: a lie. And I think that I think that goes 596 00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:29,680 Speaker 1: back to what you're talking about. Yeah, and I think, 597 00:35:30,160 --> 00:35:36,239 Speaker 1: you know, the historical historical kind of divide and the 598 00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:42,000 Speaker 1: polarization of that of that narrative I think is you know, oftentimes, 599 00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:45,440 Speaker 1: I think people fail to to to remember that a 600 00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:48,200 Speaker 1: lot of those early Boone and Crockett Club members, Teddy Roosevelt, 601 00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:50,720 Speaker 1: you know, they weren't perfect. You can read their history 602 00:35:50,760 --> 00:35:53,439 Speaker 1: books and there's probably some things that you know, maybe 603 00:35:53,480 --> 00:35:56,440 Speaker 1: they could have done better, but they also they set 604 00:35:56,440 --> 00:35:59,279 Speaker 1: the stage for conservation to succeed, you know. I mean 605 00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:02,520 Speaker 1: he talked about went out to Montana and having trouble 606 00:36:03,080 --> 00:36:06,879 Speaker 1: finding a bison to hunt, you know, and then he 607 00:36:07,000 --> 00:36:11,799 Speaker 1: had obviously one of the biggest influences and conservation you know, 608 00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:15,680 Speaker 1: into the future. And I think there's something to be 609 00:36:15,719 --> 00:36:20,239 Speaker 1: said for people who dedicate their time and energy to wildlife, 610 00:36:20,239 --> 00:36:23,759 Speaker 1: whether they're non hunters, anti hunters, or hunters. You know, 611 00:36:23,800 --> 00:36:29,439 Speaker 1: I think, um, you know, there's one thing to buy 612 00:36:29,440 --> 00:36:31,360 Speaker 1: a hunting license and know that some of that money 613 00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:34,480 Speaker 1: goes into the Pittman Robson you know fund, you know, 614 00:36:34,719 --> 00:36:37,839 Speaker 1: by way of the Act. But there's another thing to 615 00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:39,960 Speaker 1: to do that. But then also to spend your time 616 00:36:41,520 --> 00:36:46,320 Speaker 1: planting trees or or helping restore a right parent ecosystem, 617 00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:49,520 Speaker 1: or you know, doing a Christmas bird count that informs 618 00:36:49,520 --> 00:36:52,279 Speaker 1: the way that we understand songbirds. There's I think there's 619 00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:55,960 Speaker 1: degrees to which we can be conservationists. There's the there's 620 00:36:56,000 --> 00:37:00,040 Speaker 1: the kind of initial entry, uh you know, membership of 621 00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:03,600 Speaker 1: of buying a tag and having some money go into conservation. 622 00:37:03,640 --> 00:37:06,920 Speaker 1: But I think there's there's a lot of other ways 623 00:37:07,040 --> 00:37:10,239 Speaker 1: to to get involved and to have a hand in 624 00:37:10,560 --> 00:37:13,920 Speaker 1: writing the future of America's conservation um. And I think 625 00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:17,279 Speaker 1: one of the things that non hunters and anti hunters 626 00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:22,439 Speaker 1: maybe don't I haven't been exposed to or haven't thought of, 627 00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:30,120 Speaker 1: is that a lot of hunters, you know, don't enjoy watches. 628 00:37:30,160 --> 00:37:32,200 Speaker 1: Some mean die, you know, Like I grew up hunting 629 00:37:32,680 --> 00:37:36,440 Speaker 1: birds mostly, but I've vivid memories of being sad about 630 00:37:36,480 --> 00:37:39,840 Speaker 1: that and then eating the food and realizing that to 631 00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:43,680 Speaker 1: eat meat, something has to die. And that was a 632 00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:46,040 Speaker 1: choice that I made. And it's not something to take lightly, 633 00:37:46,080 --> 00:37:50,319 Speaker 1: and it's not something that happens with you know, with 634 00:37:50,480 --> 00:37:55,759 Speaker 1: this kind of neglect of of of realizing that you 635 00:37:55,800 --> 00:37:57,600 Speaker 1: know that this is a life and death situation for 636 00:37:57,600 --> 00:38:02,320 Speaker 1: these animals. Um you know, the difference between a white 637 00:38:02,320 --> 00:38:06,359 Speaker 1: tailed deer dying and you know a desert bighorn are 638 00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:10,359 Speaker 1: very different, right. White tail deer are incredibly abundant, very 639 00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:13,480 Speaker 1: much not under threat. You know, there are places where 640 00:38:13,480 --> 00:38:16,400 Speaker 1: desert bighorn are are hanging on and kind of rebounding. 641 00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:21,160 Speaker 1: And you know, I just shot a film with with 642 00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:23,759 Speaker 1: Ben Masters and Adam Foss. I'm sure you know both 643 00:38:23,800 --> 00:38:28,080 Speaker 1: those guys um on desert bighorn sheep down in Texas. 644 00:38:28,440 --> 00:38:31,520 Speaker 1: Sitka supported it and Texas Parks and Wildlife had a 645 00:38:31,520 --> 00:38:34,920 Speaker 1: big plane it. And it's a film about a bunch 646 00:38:34,960 --> 00:38:39,360 Speaker 1: of people, many of whom probably identify as hunters, spending 647 00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:43,520 Speaker 1: their their time, money and energy getting bighorn sheep back 648 00:38:43,560 --> 00:38:47,080 Speaker 1: onto these mountains that used to support healthy populations and 649 00:38:47,239 --> 00:38:51,640 Speaker 1: don't anymore. And most of them will never have a 650 00:38:51,719 --> 00:38:55,319 Speaker 1: chance to hunt bighorn sheep. But they have the the hat, 651 00:38:55,600 --> 00:38:58,760 Speaker 1: you know, the Wild Cheap Foundation hat, and they they 652 00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:02,439 Speaker 1: are card carrying big horn enthusiasts. But they're not doing 653 00:39:02,440 --> 00:39:03,840 Speaker 1: it to put one on the wall. They're doing it 654 00:39:03,880 --> 00:39:05,440 Speaker 1: because they want to see one hop out of that 655 00:39:05,480 --> 00:39:08,240 Speaker 1: horse trailer. And you know, run up into the mountains 656 00:39:08,920 --> 00:39:11,160 Speaker 1: and and that's it, you know, And I think it's 657 00:39:11,160 --> 00:39:13,879 Speaker 1: an it's an important thing to remind people is that 658 00:39:14,680 --> 00:39:18,080 Speaker 1: it's called hunting, not killing. You know, like there's so 659 00:39:18,080 --> 00:39:20,280 Speaker 1: many days we go hunt and we we just watch, 660 00:39:20,640 --> 00:39:22,440 Speaker 1: you know, most of it might say that when we 661 00:39:23,040 --> 00:39:25,200 Speaker 1: didn't kill something, because I always thought that was like, well, 662 00:39:25,239 --> 00:39:29,080 Speaker 1: that's that mean we suck his hunters. We talk killing 663 00:39:29,080 --> 00:39:31,040 Speaker 1: and we stuck with that. That's an idea that that 664 00:39:31,239 --> 00:39:34,839 Speaker 1: certainly is worth going over because it's it's something that 665 00:39:35,880 --> 00:39:39,680 Speaker 1: it goes to this whole conversation. If you're not killing something, 666 00:39:39,719 --> 00:39:41,800 Speaker 1: did you succeed? And how did you succeed? You know, 667 00:39:41,840 --> 00:39:44,719 Speaker 1: if you've never killed, if you're could you be ah 668 00:39:45,160 --> 00:39:47,600 Speaker 1: a conservationist and a sheep hunter if you've never killed 669 00:39:47,640 --> 00:39:49,480 Speaker 1: one in your entire life and maybe stand to never 670 00:39:49,680 --> 00:39:54,080 Speaker 1: do so, I think you can be absolutely And I 671 00:39:54,120 --> 00:39:57,319 Speaker 1: mean I was talking with with Um, one of the 672 00:39:57,320 --> 00:39:59,880 Speaker 1: biologists down there, and he told me a story about 673 00:40:00,920 --> 00:40:04,080 Speaker 1: a gentleman who who bought the tag to go hunt 674 00:40:04,719 --> 00:40:07,360 Speaker 1: one of these sheep and and never pulled the trigger. 675 00:40:08,440 --> 00:40:11,399 Speaker 1: And that was fine. He just he for whatever reason 676 00:40:11,440 --> 00:40:14,600 Speaker 1: didn't feel right and he just just didn't happen. He 677 00:40:14,719 --> 00:40:16,640 Speaker 1: was happy as can be. You know, he walked off 678 00:40:16,680 --> 00:40:19,840 Speaker 1: that mountain and he had succeeded. You know, he'd gotten 679 00:40:19,920 --> 00:40:21,560 Speaker 1: up there and gotten a chance to have this once 680 00:40:21,600 --> 00:40:24,160 Speaker 1: in a life some opportunity. And I mean I think 681 00:40:24,160 --> 00:40:26,719 Speaker 1: back on my hunting season last year, and I mean 682 00:40:26,760 --> 00:40:28,279 Speaker 1: some of the best moments of my life. We're just 683 00:40:28,320 --> 00:40:32,319 Speaker 1: sitting with my fiancee, uh, you know, watching elk just 684 00:40:32,480 --> 00:40:35,160 Speaker 1: ripped by and looking at her and looking at you know, 685 00:40:35,680 --> 00:40:37,200 Speaker 1: her looking at me, and just this kind of like 686 00:40:37,239 --> 00:40:39,400 Speaker 1: out of body experience, and that was it, you know, 687 00:40:39,640 --> 00:40:41,680 Speaker 1: just basically what I used to do as an ecologist, 688 00:40:41,719 --> 00:40:43,920 Speaker 1: which was go sit in the woods for months and 689 00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:48,279 Speaker 1: years on end and watch animals, which is that's why 690 00:40:48,280 --> 00:40:51,319 Speaker 1: I do it so well. I mean I think, yeah, 691 00:40:51,400 --> 00:40:53,319 Speaker 1: you go back to some of the things that we 692 00:40:53,360 --> 00:40:55,399 Speaker 1: do and hunting to kind of boil down all these 693 00:40:55,440 --> 00:40:59,480 Speaker 1: ideas and make him easy into hashtags or bullet points 694 00:40:59,560 --> 00:41:02,520 Speaker 1: or you know, campaign slogans or whatever they need to 695 00:41:02,520 --> 00:41:05,160 Speaker 1: be for people understand them. And a couple of loads. 696 00:41:05,200 --> 00:41:08,880 Speaker 1: There's one start making the rounds now called conservationist, and 697 00:41:08,920 --> 00:41:11,279 Speaker 1: there's the other one is hunting is conservation Those are 698 00:41:11,320 --> 00:41:13,000 Speaker 1: the two I've seen recently That kind of irked me 699 00:41:13,000 --> 00:41:15,800 Speaker 1: a little bit, and I think maybe just because that 700 00:41:15,920 --> 00:41:19,120 Speaker 1: simplifies makes it simple, like to go hunting is to 701 00:41:19,120 --> 00:41:22,600 Speaker 1: be a conservationist. No, it's not not at all. Um, 702 00:41:22,680 --> 00:41:26,000 Speaker 1: Hunting is hunting and conservation is conservation. Of course, you 703 00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:28,440 Speaker 1: know do you know well know that hunting is a 704 00:41:28,440 --> 00:41:30,839 Speaker 1: tool of conservations in a lot of ways, but they 705 00:41:30,880 --> 00:41:34,120 Speaker 1: aren't one and the same, and to try to draw 706 00:41:34,200 --> 00:41:37,640 Speaker 1: that line just just seems a bit lazy to me 707 00:41:37,719 --> 00:41:41,160 Speaker 1: and oversimplifying what what is complicated. So it's it's nice 708 00:41:41,200 --> 00:41:44,680 Speaker 1: to hear that there are folks, especially in Texas, that 709 00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:47,960 Speaker 1: that are doing those things the right way. Yeah. I 710 00:41:47,960 --> 00:41:49,719 Speaker 1: think it's a great point. I mean it's it's just 711 00:41:49,800 --> 00:41:52,560 Speaker 1: like you know, saying that because you pay your taxes, 712 00:41:52,600 --> 00:41:57,359 Speaker 1: your pro highways and pro war and pro bridge restoration 713 00:41:57,640 --> 00:42:01,799 Speaker 1: and reinforcement. Yeah, I mean it's you know, I think 714 00:42:01,840 --> 00:42:05,000 Speaker 1: it's by default you are putting money into that in 715 00:42:05,000 --> 00:42:09,719 Speaker 1: that bucket. But to your point, you know, there's there's definitely, 716 00:42:10,200 --> 00:42:12,520 Speaker 1: and I think the distinction is important because it helps 717 00:42:12,560 --> 00:42:15,399 Speaker 1: people realize that there there is more to do, right, 718 00:42:15,520 --> 00:42:20,719 Speaker 1: Like you can hunt and you can contribute, you know, 719 00:42:21,120 --> 00:42:24,640 Speaker 1: some some funds into conservation by buying your tags and 720 00:42:24,800 --> 00:42:27,520 Speaker 1: in all the taxes that are out there. But there's 721 00:42:27,560 --> 00:42:31,120 Speaker 1: also a rich community of people who are debting, like 722 00:42:31,120 --> 00:42:33,320 Speaker 1: like I said, who are dedicating their time and energy 723 00:42:33,360 --> 00:42:36,160 Speaker 1: into conservation and some of them hunting, some of them don't, 724 00:42:36,480 --> 00:42:40,960 Speaker 1: and that's fine. But the the common passion is just 725 00:42:41,000 --> 00:42:45,160 Speaker 1: for for wildlife and you know, the outdoors, and it's 726 00:42:45,160 --> 00:42:47,880 Speaker 1: something that you know, it's you you point out that 727 00:42:47,920 --> 00:42:50,960 Speaker 1: it's a it's a phenomena that's happening in the hunting world, 728 00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:53,000 Speaker 1: it's also happening in the outdoor world. You know, I 729 00:42:53,040 --> 00:42:56,160 Speaker 1: spent a lot of time and a lot of the 730 00:42:56,239 --> 00:42:58,680 Speaker 1: projects and people I engage with are just in the 731 00:42:58,719 --> 00:43:01,920 Speaker 1: kind of traditional outdoor space, and there's you know, I 732 00:43:01,960 --> 00:43:04,520 Speaker 1: have the same kind of feelings that you shared about 733 00:43:04,560 --> 00:43:06,680 Speaker 1: the outdoor world. You know, just because you hike the 734 00:43:06,680 --> 00:43:11,560 Speaker 1: PCT or or went camping in Alaska or you know, 735 00:43:11,840 --> 00:43:15,680 Speaker 1: enjoy bears Ears doesn't mean that you're conservationist or doesn't 736 00:43:15,680 --> 00:43:19,719 Speaker 1: mean that you are an informed person. That really can 737 00:43:19,760 --> 00:43:22,120 Speaker 1: add much to the conservation narrative. Besides the fact that 738 00:43:22,120 --> 00:43:25,520 Speaker 1: you hiked there once or camp there twice or you know, 739 00:43:25,560 --> 00:43:27,200 Speaker 1: I think there's just such a difference between hiking in 740 00:43:27,239 --> 00:43:29,720 Speaker 1: the place and and camping in a place or hunting 741 00:43:29,719 --> 00:43:34,279 Speaker 1: in a place and actually understanding the ecological rhythms of 742 00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:37,279 Speaker 1: the place and the threats and the conservation history and 743 00:43:37,920 --> 00:43:40,879 Speaker 1: the constituents, you know, from a social perspective, and all 744 00:43:41,000 --> 00:43:44,839 Speaker 1: in the kind of the ecosystem at large. I mean, 745 00:43:44,840 --> 00:43:49,759 Speaker 1: there's just it's such as conversation gives me. That conversation 746 00:43:49,800 --> 00:43:51,920 Speaker 1: gives me a lot of energy, like even when you're 747 00:43:51,960 --> 00:43:54,879 Speaker 1: hearing you talk about that, because I think just from 748 00:43:54,880 --> 00:43:57,800 Speaker 1: an I D standpoint, I see a lot of hunters 749 00:43:57,800 --> 00:44:01,439 Speaker 1: who who just they're paying attacks right that it's it's 750 00:44:01,520 --> 00:44:04,560 Speaker 1: voluntary by way of going in and purchasing a hunting license. 751 00:44:04,560 --> 00:44:06,920 Speaker 1: But if you want to go hunting, it's involuntary. If 752 00:44:06,920 --> 00:44:09,240 Speaker 1: you want to legally hunt, you have to buy a license, 753 00:44:09,760 --> 00:44:12,720 Speaker 1: right You. You have to purchase unless you borrow from someone. 754 00:44:13,239 --> 00:44:16,080 Speaker 1: You have to purchase a firearm or or archery tackle. 755 00:44:16,160 --> 00:44:19,800 Speaker 1: So at some level it's a requirement that our system 756 00:44:19,840 --> 00:44:21,800 Speaker 1: is set up that you pay this tax into Pittman 757 00:44:21,880 --> 00:44:26,120 Speaker 1: Robertson or into um into the state wildlife agencies. It's 758 00:44:26,160 --> 00:44:28,560 Speaker 1: not voluntary. They don't ask you, when you buy a rifle, 759 00:44:28,600 --> 00:44:30,799 Speaker 1: would you like to pay eleven percent excise tax? Would 760 00:44:30,800 --> 00:44:33,720 Speaker 1: you like to leave that off? Like you, you purchase 761 00:44:33,800 --> 00:44:36,719 Speaker 1: it and you pay it. I think there is in 762 00:44:36,880 --> 00:44:40,680 Speaker 1: hunting more comfortable. There's a more comfortable subset of people 763 00:44:40,719 --> 00:44:42,560 Speaker 1: that are like, yes, I know it costs more money 764 00:44:42,560 --> 00:44:44,720 Speaker 1: to hunt, and I know that that. This is why, 765 00:44:44,760 --> 00:44:47,680 Speaker 1: because it does go into conservation. Um. If you flip 766 00:44:47,719 --> 00:44:51,000 Speaker 1: that over to the outdoor wreck community, I think there's less. 767 00:44:51,080 --> 00:44:54,760 Speaker 1: There's less that because the Outdoor Industry Association fights against 768 00:44:55,080 --> 00:44:58,960 Speaker 1: a backpack tax that would would impose some sort of 769 00:45:00,080 --> 00:45:03,720 Speaker 1: excise tax on on goods sold for climbing or hiking 770 00:45:03,800 --> 00:45:07,319 Speaker 1: or camping or whatever. And uh, I don't know that 771 00:45:07,400 --> 00:45:09,640 Speaker 1: there just isn't a history of that in that world, 772 00:45:10,320 --> 00:45:14,399 Speaker 1: or it just I think there's to your point, more 773 00:45:14,400 --> 00:45:17,399 Speaker 1: people that like to say they're conservation is because it's 774 00:45:17,400 --> 00:45:21,520 Speaker 1: trending and it feels good and it's emotionally satisfying to 775 00:45:21,560 --> 00:45:23,600 Speaker 1: say you're a conservation when they're really not doing anything. 776 00:45:25,200 --> 00:45:27,560 Speaker 1: Have you seen that parallel? I mean, hunters are willing 777 00:45:27,560 --> 00:45:29,279 Speaker 1: to pay, but at some level a lot of them 778 00:45:29,320 --> 00:45:32,319 Speaker 1: don't even know what they're paying, and it seems like 779 00:45:32,320 --> 00:45:34,520 Speaker 1: the outdoor space maybe is a little less willing to 780 00:45:34,520 --> 00:45:38,960 Speaker 1: go down that road, but more willing to talk about it. Yeah, 781 00:45:39,160 --> 00:45:43,760 Speaker 1: you know, I don't know. I think I think, without 782 00:45:43,760 --> 00:45:46,239 Speaker 1: saying anything too contentious, you know, I think the outdoor 783 00:45:48,520 --> 00:45:55,040 Speaker 1: industry looks maybe at hunters in a in a light, 784 00:45:55,239 --> 00:45:59,400 Speaker 1: in a certain light, because we're in their eyes. They 785 00:45:59,400 --> 00:46:01,799 Speaker 1: think we're taking something from the outdoors, were taking an 786 00:46:01,800 --> 00:46:07,640 Speaker 1: animal from the outdoors, were harvesting. I think they generally 787 00:46:08,400 --> 00:46:11,399 Speaker 1: this is maybe a gross overstatement, but I think of 788 00:46:11,440 --> 00:46:15,879 Speaker 1: their impacts as benign, so they kind of I think 789 00:46:15,880 --> 00:46:17,880 Speaker 1: maybe there's the stigma of like, oh, we're actually not 790 00:46:17,920 --> 00:46:23,520 Speaker 1: doing anything bad, so therefore we're kind of you know, 791 00:46:23,520 --> 00:46:26,920 Speaker 1: our hands are clean. But you know, you can you 792 00:46:26,960 --> 00:46:30,520 Speaker 1: can look at Yosemite or any of these really heavily 793 00:46:30,560 --> 00:46:34,760 Speaker 1: traffic parks and just the impact on trails and littering 794 00:46:34,800 --> 00:46:37,840 Speaker 1: and just visitation. You know, I mean, maybe we should 795 00:46:37,840 --> 00:46:41,160 Speaker 1: be paying more. Maybe if you're just recreating in some 796 00:46:41,200 --> 00:46:43,680 Speaker 1: of these really highly traffic parks, you should be paying 797 00:46:43,719 --> 00:46:47,680 Speaker 1: more because the net impact on the ecosystem is is 798 00:46:47,719 --> 00:46:52,080 Speaker 1: so tremendous and growing. You know, I think Um, if 799 00:46:52,200 --> 00:46:55,440 Speaker 1: hunters had a choice to pay that tax, I'm not 800 00:46:55,480 --> 00:46:58,400 Speaker 1: sure what the answer is, but I would bet a 801 00:46:58,400 --> 00:47:03,160 Speaker 1: lot of people would opt to not pay the conservation. Uh, 802 00:47:03,200 --> 00:47:05,719 Speaker 1: you know, is that eleven percent that you mentioned. Um, 803 00:47:05,760 --> 00:47:08,080 Speaker 1: that'd be a nice experiment to do. That would be 804 00:47:08,400 --> 00:47:10,040 Speaker 1: that would be an experiment that I would like to 805 00:47:10,040 --> 00:47:13,040 Speaker 1: see if you because I don't think I mean, there's 806 00:47:13,080 --> 00:47:15,000 Speaker 1: a lot of people who know what Pittman Robinson might be, 807 00:47:15,600 --> 00:47:17,440 Speaker 1: but I don't think they know what it really is 808 00:47:18,400 --> 00:47:20,560 Speaker 1: and what it really does, because it's not when you 809 00:47:20,560 --> 00:47:23,319 Speaker 1: buy a hunting license, it's not written on your uh 810 00:47:23,320 --> 00:47:26,040 Speaker 1: in your booklet what where all your money goes? And 811 00:47:26,120 --> 00:47:28,680 Speaker 1: when you purchase a firearm, it's not on your seat 812 00:47:28,880 --> 00:47:32,080 Speaker 1: where that eleven percent exercise tax and how it's levied 813 00:47:32,120 --> 00:47:35,560 Speaker 1: and where it ends up. It's not there's no outward 814 00:47:35,680 --> 00:47:38,759 Speaker 1: education for the hunting community about these things, so a 815 00:47:38,760 --> 00:47:41,120 Speaker 1: lot of folks go go their whole life without ever 816 00:47:41,160 --> 00:47:43,640 Speaker 1: knowing about it. And that's it's a shame in one way, 817 00:47:43,680 --> 00:47:47,239 Speaker 1: but in another way, it's created this disconnection from generational 818 00:47:47,280 --> 00:47:50,239 Speaker 1: disconnect from what's actually happening and what was enacted in 819 00:47:50,239 --> 00:47:53,399 Speaker 1: the thirties. So You're right, I'd be interested to see 820 00:47:53,400 --> 00:47:55,479 Speaker 1: how many hunters would opt to pay that eleven percent 821 00:47:55,560 --> 00:47:58,720 Speaker 1: excise tax or opt to pay that extra tag fees 822 00:47:58,760 --> 00:48:00,520 Speaker 1: that that are going back into the states. I mean, 823 00:48:00,560 --> 00:48:04,359 Speaker 1: i'd be interested in that. I don't know, and I think, 824 00:48:04,360 --> 00:48:06,759 Speaker 1: you know, take this step further. You know, I took 825 00:48:07,239 --> 00:48:11,719 Speaker 1: I got my bow hunting license last year, and we 826 00:48:11,880 --> 00:48:15,280 Speaker 1: you know, in Montana, we take a bow hunting specific 827 00:48:15,320 --> 00:48:19,040 Speaker 1: field course, and you know, they have a portion of 828 00:48:19,080 --> 00:48:22,719 Speaker 1: the courses on you know, blood trails, and a portion 829 00:48:22,760 --> 00:48:25,560 Speaker 1: of the courses on being bear safe and pepper spray 830 00:48:25,640 --> 00:48:28,480 Speaker 1: and how to move safely you know in bear country. 831 00:48:30,000 --> 00:48:33,680 Speaker 1: I mean, I think both rifle and archery hunters would 832 00:48:33,719 --> 00:48:38,279 Speaker 1: benefit tremendously from a portion of that course being a 833 00:48:38,360 --> 00:48:41,360 Speaker 1: natural history course, you know. And maybe it's specific to 834 00:48:41,400 --> 00:48:45,400 Speaker 1: the state or the region, but I mean I'd argue 835 00:48:45,440 --> 00:48:49,359 Speaker 1: that's that's a great entry point to have a more informed, 836 00:48:50,440 --> 00:48:54,400 Speaker 1: conservation minded group of hunters, you know, to make that 837 00:48:54,480 --> 00:48:56,960 Speaker 1: part of the education. You know, you're not just hunting 838 00:48:57,000 --> 00:49:03,080 Speaker 1: a particular animal particular speech ease, but you're taking part 839 00:49:03,080 --> 00:49:06,960 Speaker 1: in this activity that you know affects an ecosystem. And 840 00:49:07,160 --> 00:49:11,440 Speaker 1: here's kind of the building blocks to that ecosystem. Um. 841 00:49:11,520 --> 00:49:14,239 Speaker 1: And just like the outdoor industry, I mean, it's the same. 842 00:49:14,600 --> 00:49:18,279 Speaker 1: You know. One of the the thoughts that comes to 843 00:49:18,360 --> 00:49:21,000 Speaker 1: my mind when I, you know, go to outdoor retailers 844 00:49:21,160 --> 00:49:24,800 Speaker 1: is I walk through these these conference halls filled with 845 00:49:24,920 --> 00:49:27,799 Speaker 1: hundreds of outdoor people, you know, outdoor industry folks, and 846 00:49:28,680 --> 00:49:30,959 Speaker 1: you know, you wonder how many of them could list 847 00:49:31,000 --> 00:49:33,880 Speaker 1: off four bird species that live you know, in the 848 00:49:33,960 --> 00:49:36,800 Speaker 1: in the mountain range they just hiked, you know, or 849 00:49:37,400 --> 00:49:40,000 Speaker 1: or four tree species and not that you need to, 850 00:49:40,320 --> 00:49:42,719 Speaker 1: you know, have a laundry list of the plants and 851 00:49:42,760 --> 00:49:46,080 Speaker 1: animals in your space. But you know, how do we 852 00:49:46,200 --> 00:49:48,160 Speaker 1: I guess the question that I chew on often is 853 00:49:48,160 --> 00:49:53,520 Speaker 1: how do we push the hunting an outdoor industry to 854 00:49:53,680 --> 00:49:59,640 Speaker 1: a place where we start to value that that conservation 855 00:50:00,040 --> 00:50:04,120 Speaker 1: and that natural history kind of element. You know, it's 856 00:50:04,160 --> 00:50:06,279 Speaker 1: not in the currency for the outdoor industry because they're 857 00:50:06,280 --> 00:50:08,759 Speaker 1: more interested in how high the mountain was or how 858 00:50:08,800 --> 00:50:14,080 Speaker 1: difficult the climbing route was. Um. And I don't know, 859 00:50:14,600 --> 00:50:17,400 Speaker 1: but it's I think that's there in lies the difference 860 00:50:17,400 --> 00:50:21,960 Speaker 1: between somebody who recreates outdoors and you know, my grandfather 861 00:50:22,040 --> 00:50:24,480 Speaker 1: who was a hunter, but he was also a Harvard 862 00:50:24,520 --> 00:50:27,920 Speaker 1: trained forester in Minnesota in the North Woods, and he 863 00:50:28,000 --> 00:50:31,080 Speaker 1: took my dad deer hunting his whole childhood. And my 864 00:50:31,160 --> 00:50:32,680 Speaker 1: dad never shot a deer because he just sat on 865 00:50:32,719 --> 00:50:35,440 Speaker 1: a stump and just basically my grandpa just go walk 866 00:50:35,440 --> 00:50:37,279 Speaker 1: around the woods and then come pick my dad up, 867 00:50:37,320 --> 00:50:43,279 Speaker 1: you know, eight hours later. But oh, it's interesting because 868 00:50:43,280 --> 00:50:46,520 Speaker 1: I always break it down by hunters being consumptive users 869 00:50:47,800 --> 00:50:51,920 Speaker 1: and recreationals being non consumptive. Right, working, we're going out 870 00:50:51,920 --> 00:50:53,879 Speaker 1: in the into the woods and taking something we didn't 871 00:50:53,880 --> 00:50:58,040 Speaker 1: put there, right, And normally folks in the outdoor wreck 872 00:50:58,120 --> 00:51:00,360 Speaker 1: community aren't doing that. They're not going it out and 873 00:51:01,080 --> 00:51:03,000 Speaker 1: taking big chunks of rock home with them, or they're 874 00:51:03,000 --> 00:51:05,600 Speaker 1: not going out and cutting trees down. They're just going 875 00:51:05,640 --> 00:51:07,279 Speaker 1: out and the enjoying that space. And yes they have 876 00:51:07,280 --> 00:51:11,280 Speaker 1: an effect, but um, it's not as a direct effect. 877 00:51:11,280 --> 00:51:13,520 Speaker 1: And I think maybe I'm wrong in the in those 878 00:51:13,560 --> 00:51:17,040 Speaker 1: two descriptions. I mean, who cares if you're killing a 879 00:51:17,040 --> 00:51:21,680 Speaker 1: deer or not? Or who cares where you can or whatever. 880 00:51:21,920 --> 00:51:23,920 Speaker 1: I think what we should probably more judge bies, what 881 00:51:24,040 --> 00:51:29,360 Speaker 1: is your overall effect on on the wild world? In nature, 882 00:51:29,400 --> 00:51:31,759 Speaker 1: and then how do you manage that? You know, what's 883 00:51:31,760 --> 00:51:35,040 Speaker 1: your overall effect campers, what's your overall effect hunters? And 884 00:51:35,040 --> 00:51:37,279 Speaker 1: then how do you manage that effect? And how do 885 00:51:37,360 --> 00:51:41,600 Speaker 1: you contribute to you know, the positive A positive look 886 00:51:41,680 --> 00:51:45,640 Speaker 1: upon that I think is important. And and everybody's consuming 887 00:51:45,680 --> 00:51:48,279 Speaker 1: something in some way and affecting something in some way, 888 00:51:48,360 --> 00:51:51,600 Speaker 1: But um, are both of those groups having the same 889 00:51:51,640 --> 00:51:56,239 Speaker 1: positive effect at the end of the day. Yeah, I 890 00:51:56,239 --> 00:51:57,680 Speaker 1: think you bring up a great point, you know. I 891 00:51:57,760 --> 00:52:02,000 Speaker 1: think about white deer again, you know, and in a 892 00:52:02,080 --> 00:52:06,920 Speaker 1: lot of places, if you were somebody looking to have 893 00:52:06,960 --> 00:52:09,759 Speaker 1: a positive effect on an ecosystem with an overabundance of 894 00:52:09,760 --> 00:52:12,040 Speaker 1: white tailed deer, one of the best things you could 895 00:52:12,080 --> 00:52:17,640 Speaker 1: do is harvest a white tailed deer. Yeah. Conversely, one 896 00:52:17,640 --> 00:52:19,440 Speaker 1: of the best things you can do if you're hiking 897 00:52:19,440 --> 00:52:22,399 Speaker 1: in Yosemite is to stay on the trail because so 898 00:52:22,440 --> 00:52:26,560 Speaker 1: many people for an Instagram photo or for whatever reason 899 00:52:26,640 --> 00:52:30,720 Speaker 1: are off trail, you know, further marginalizing in sensitive habitat. 900 00:52:30,800 --> 00:52:37,080 Speaker 1: And I think the net gains of harvesting that white 901 00:52:37,080 --> 00:52:41,160 Speaker 1: tailed deer in a place like Texas or staying on trail, 902 00:52:41,280 --> 00:52:44,080 Speaker 1: you know, I think they're very similar in my eyes, 903 00:52:44,200 --> 00:52:47,799 Speaker 1: right like you're you're pushing the needle and towards a 904 00:52:47,840 --> 00:52:50,759 Speaker 1: place of conservation and stewardship and mindfulness, you know, And 905 00:52:50,800 --> 00:52:54,720 Speaker 1: I think a lot of people, you know, non hunters 906 00:52:54,800 --> 00:52:57,680 Speaker 1: might not think about the benefits of hunting certain animals 907 00:52:57,680 --> 00:53:03,440 Speaker 1: certain populations. And also non hunters might not think about 908 00:53:03,480 --> 00:53:07,560 Speaker 1: the net effect of poaching a campsite next to a 909 00:53:07,640 --> 00:53:12,680 Speaker 1: lake and throwing your you know, your kitchen scraps into 910 00:53:12,719 --> 00:53:15,200 Speaker 1: a high alpine lake because they probably don't realize that 911 00:53:15,200 --> 00:53:20,919 Speaker 1: those high alpine lakes are very biologically poor, Like there's 912 00:53:20,960 --> 00:53:24,520 Speaker 1: not a lot of organisms that break down a piece 913 00:53:24,520 --> 00:53:26,960 Speaker 1: of bread or a or a piece of chicken, so 914 00:53:27,000 --> 00:53:29,120 Speaker 1: it just sits in the lake. They call him a 915 00:53:29,160 --> 00:53:32,640 Speaker 1: liga trophic nutrient poor. You know, if I don't realize 916 00:53:32,680 --> 00:53:34,759 Speaker 1: that's that's a bad thing, or people probably don't realize that, 917 00:53:35,200 --> 00:53:38,200 Speaker 1: you know, going to the bathroom on the side of 918 00:53:38,239 --> 00:53:43,040 Speaker 1: a trail in goat country or sheep countries actually probably 919 00:53:43,040 --> 00:53:44,880 Speaker 1: not the best thing, because those animals come down for 920 00:53:44,920 --> 00:53:47,560 Speaker 1: the salt and they end up disturbing the you know, 921 00:53:47,719 --> 00:53:50,640 Speaker 1: the soil next to these trails, and over time it 922 00:53:50,680 --> 00:53:54,160 Speaker 1: can pounds and it can be actually have pretty dramatic effects. 923 00:53:54,840 --> 00:53:56,959 Speaker 1: Or I can just bring these animals into places where 924 00:53:57,160 --> 00:54:02,000 Speaker 1: potential conflict of humans is greater. Yeah, now that's interesting me. 925 00:54:02,440 --> 00:54:05,439 Speaker 1: I think, you know outdoor rec users and I can't 926 00:54:05,480 --> 00:54:07,400 Speaker 1: say that I go camping a lot or go you know, 927 00:54:07,600 --> 00:54:10,000 Speaker 1: necessarily go hike in a ton in places where I'm 928 00:54:10,040 --> 00:54:12,239 Speaker 1: not hunting. I do, but it's mostly around my house 929 00:54:12,280 --> 00:54:16,160 Speaker 1: here in Texas. You know, I know hunters. There's the 930 00:54:16,160 --> 00:54:18,040 Speaker 1: build in model, right, we pay, we pay, we pay, 931 00:54:18,120 --> 00:54:21,120 Speaker 1: we pay, And that's always how we talk about it. 932 00:54:21,200 --> 00:54:25,000 Speaker 1: Everything's everything costs more because it's it's a more serious activity. 933 00:54:25,480 --> 00:54:27,480 Speaker 1: Is there the same thing in outdoor recreation? Do you 934 00:54:27,520 --> 00:54:31,040 Speaker 1: feel like people are camping or hiking or they're they're 935 00:54:31,040 --> 00:54:35,040 Speaker 1: paying enough um, whether it's a park fee or you know, 936 00:54:35,920 --> 00:54:38,480 Speaker 1: parking lot fee or whatever it might be, there is 937 00:54:38,520 --> 00:54:40,399 Speaker 1: they're the same? That's it's a legitimate question. I don't 938 00:54:40,440 --> 00:54:42,440 Speaker 1: really have a point. I'm just I just I'm not 939 00:54:42,480 --> 00:54:46,520 Speaker 1: as educated in that. Yeah, I mean, I I think 940 00:54:48,480 --> 00:54:53,360 Speaker 1: one of the greatest things that's preventing public land managers, 941 00:54:53,920 --> 00:54:57,279 Speaker 1: whether it's the Force Service, the BLM, or National Park 942 00:54:57,360 --> 00:55:03,000 Speaker 1: Service from accomplishing their conservation goals is funding, and you know, 943 00:55:03,120 --> 00:55:08,400 Speaker 1: every president and the politicians that come with them have 944 00:55:08,640 --> 00:55:11,399 Speaker 1: their pros and cons. But one of the things that's 945 00:55:11,400 --> 00:55:16,000 Speaker 1: been a recurring theme with organizations like the BLM is 946 00:55:16,040 --> 00:55:18,440 Speaker 1: they don't have the funds to do what they need 947 00:55:18,480 --> 00:55:23,399 Speaker 1: to do. So you look at BLM, you know public land, 948 00:55:23,480 --> 00:55:26,440 Speaker 1: and it's you can just camp wherever you want. If 949 00:55:26,480 --> 00:55:29,760 Speaker 1: there's a shortage of resources for the agency to manage 950 00:55:29,760 --> 00:55:32,960 Speaker 1: a public lands well, and it's a financial shortage. But 951 00:55:33,160 --> 00:55:37,520 Speaker 1: yet places like the Eastern Sierra in California, thousands of 952 00:55:37,520 --> 00:55:41,040 Speaker 1: people are camping in every day for free. I mean, yeah, 953 00:55:41,080 --> 00:55:44,799 Speaker 1: it's romantic and it sounds great, but they're also having 954 00:55:44,840 --> 00:55:48,759 Speaker 1: to close BLM campgrounds around Zion National Park because they're 955 00:55:48,760 --> 00:55:53,040 Speaker 1: being used to such an extent that the ecosystems being degraded. 956 00:55:54,080 --> 00:55:58,160 Speaker 1: So it just doesn't seem to be the most uh 957 00:55:58,320 --> 00:56:03,200 Speaker 1: responsible approach. You know, let people do something for free 958 00:56:03,360 --> 00:56:06,160 Speaker 1: and then we eventually close it in time because it's 959 00:56:06,200 --> 00:56:08,320 Speaker 1: being destroyed because so many people are using it for free, 960 00:56:08,520 --> 00:56:12,319 Speaker 1: and the agency and the managers tasked with protecting and 961 00:56:12,360 --> 00:56:15,759 Speaker 1: stewarding our natural resources can't do their job because they 962 00:56:15,760 --> 00:56:18,560 Speaker 1: don't have enough money. You know, some of that's obviously 963 00:56:18,600 --> 00:56:21,960 Speaker 1: the just the political kind of landscape and where money 964 00:56:22,080 --> 00:56:28,319 Speaker 1: is moved around. But I think people have so much 965 00:56:29,320 --> 00:56:33,880 Speaker 1: respect and there's were Americans, at least in the outdoor 966 00:56:34,640 --> 00:56:36,719 Speaker 1: and the hunting industry, I think are generally proud of 967 00:56:36,760 --> 00:56:39,839 Speaker 1: their public land and proud of the places we get 968 00:56:39,840 --> 00:56:43,880 Speaker 1: to go play and recreate. But again it's you know, 969 00:56:44,239 --> 00:56:46,840 Speaker 1: as more and more of us fall in love with 970 00:56:46,880 --> 00:56:49,840 Speaker 1: these places, the more stress there is on these places. 971 00:56:49,880 --> 00:56:53,560 Speaker 1: And I would be an advocate for charging more at 972 00:56:53,680 --> 00:56:57,319 Speaker 1: entry fees and and even charging a dollar at BLM, 973 00:56:57,360 --> 00:57:01,400 Speaker 1: you know, campsites. I mean, it adds up um and 974 00:57:01,440 --> 00:57:06,840 Speaker 1: I think, yeah, it's it's it's it makes sense. You know, 975 00:57:06,960 --> 00:57:11,520 Speaker 1: these are not these ecosystems can't manage themselves. And whether 976 00:57:11,560 --> 00:57:16,080 Speaker 1: we want to believe that, you know, wilderness areas are 977 00:57:16,160 --> 00:57:19,560 Speaker 1: completely devoid of of human fingerprints, is just not true, 978 00:57:19,920 --> 00:57:23,120 Speaker 1: you know, whether it's it's the way that we're influencing 979 00:57:23,160 --> 00:57:26,000 Speaker 1: the climate or wildfires that some guy might start with 980 00:57:26,040 --> 00:57:27,680 Speaker 1: a cigarette in the side of a highway that burned 981 00:57:27,680 --> 00:57:30,400 Speaker 1: in For our wilderness areas, I mean, even if you're 982 00:57:31,440 --> 00:57:33,200 Speaker 1: thirty miles from a road, which I think is about 983 00:57:33,200 --> 00:57:34,800 Speaker 1: as remote as it gets in the lower forty eight, 984 00:57:35,800 --> 00:57:39,800 Speaker 1: there's still signatures of man all over the place. Oh yeah, UM, 985 00:57:40,480 --> 00:57:42,480 Speaker 1: So I think with that in mind, you know, we 986 00:57:42,520 --> 00:57:46,040 Speaker 1: should be tasked with, you know, kind of an entry 987 00:57:46,040 --> 00:57:50,000 Speaker 1: fee to help protect these places. Yeah, that's one the 988 00:57:50,040 --> 00:57:52,840 Speaker 1: one difference I think where and And I'm sure you're 989 00:57:52,920 --> 00:57:56,560 Speaker 1: like I am, because I do UM live in a 990 00:57:56,560 --> 00:57:59,320 Speaker 1: world where I see a lot of stuff in the 991 00:57:59,320 --> 00:58:01,600 Speaker 1: outdoor community, and then I see a lot of stuff 992 00:58:01,600 --> 00:58:03,680 Speaker 1: in the hunting community and I and I see how 993 00:58:03,680 --> 00:58:07,240 Speaker 1: similar the mindsets are UM, and then I see how 994 00:58:08,280 --> 00:58:13,320 Speaker 1: dissimilarly the outward UM talking points are, and I would 995 00:58:13,360 --> 00:58:15,560 Speaker 1: say like to bring them close together. I think that's 996 00:58:16,600 --> 00:58:19,440 Speaker 1: one thing you can do from an outdoor wreck perspective 997 00:58:19,520 --> 00:58:23,160 Speaker 1: is is be willing to pay more and asked asked 998 00:58:23,240 --> 00:58:25,080 Speaker 1: to pay more. I mean, I think hunters do that 999 00:58:25,120 --> 00:58:27,800 Speaker 1: and a lot of a lot of aspects UM. Asked 1000 00:58:27,800 --> 00:58:30,480 Speaker 1: to pay more for your impact and understand and try 1001 00:58:30,480 --> 00:58:32,520 Speaker 1: to understand really what it is. And then people willing 1002 00:58:32,520 --> 00:58:35,320 Speaker 1: to pay more to go do which I think hunters 1003 00:58:36,120 --> 00:58:39,040 Speaker 1: UM are in most respects. And I think for hunters 1004 00:58:39,040 --> 00:58:41,320 Speaker 1: the way to get closer to the outdoor wreck space 1005 00:58:42,360 --> 00:58:45,920 Speaker 1: is to be a little bit more environmentally conscious and 1006 00:58:45,960 --> 00:58:48,360 Speaker 1: be understanding of what we were talking about earlier, the 1007 00:58:48,400 --> 00:58:51,360 Speaker 1: totality of the environment and what all of it means together, 1008 00:58:51,800 --> 00:58:53,919 Speaker 1: and that hunting is a crucial part, but it's only 1009 00:58:53,960 --> 00:58:56,720 Speaker 1: one part um. But I think if you could kind 1010 00:58:56,720 --> 00:59:00,000 Speaker 1: of convince both communities that those two things, to shift 1011 00:59:00,040 --> 00:59:02,240 Speaker 1: those two ideologies a little bit, you push them together, 1012 00:59:02,600 --> 00:59:04,560 Speaker 1: they find that there's not that much of a difference. 1013 00:59:04,920 --> 00:59:06,720 Speaker 1: I don't I don't think they're really especially from the 1014 00:59:06,720 --> 00:59:11,320 Speaker 1: folks that I've talked to. Yeah, I totally agree. I mean, 1015 00:59:11,320 --> 00:59:16,840 Speaker 1: I think recreation has an impact, and I think it's 1016 00:59:16,880 --> 00:59:19,960 Speaker 1: important for the community to see that and work towards 1017 00:59:20,320 --> 00:59:23,880 Speaker 1: reducing that impact. You know. I think, like we talked 1018 00:59:23,920 --> 00:59:27,360 Speaker 1: about earlier, I think hunters should be reminded that just 1019 00:59:27,440 --> 00:59:32,480 Speaker 1: because you put money into the bucket in an involuntary 1020 00:59:32,520 --> 00:59:35,280 Speaker 1: way doesn't mean you're a conservationist. That there's a lot 1021 00:59:35,280 --> 00:59:39,480 Speaker 1: of ways to legitimize that claim, and I think creating 1022 00:59:40,760 --> 00:59:44,600 Speaker 1: a framework for the average outdoor recreation person to put 1023 00:59:44,640 --> 00:59:47,880 Speaker 1: money in a bucket and also have more opportunities to 1024 00:59:49,280 --> 00:59:51,880 Speaker 1: you know, engage with conservation and have that be I mean, 1025 00:59:51,880 --> 00:59:55,280 Speaker 1: that's from a personal perspective from somebody who makes films 1026 00:59:55,320 --> 00:59:58,000 Speaker 1: as an ecologist, and you know, somebody in both the 1027 00:59:58,040 --> 01:00:01,280 Speaker 1: outdoor and hunting industry. You know, I think there seems 1028 01:00:01,280 --> 01:00:05,720 Speaker 1: to be more value placed on conservation from a from 1029 01:00:05,720 --> 01:00:09,280 Speaker 1: a brand perspective, from a community perspective. I mean, you 1030 01:00:09,320 --> 01:00:13,200 Speaker 1: can walk through an outdoor trade show or a hunting 1031 01:00:13,200 --> 01:00:16,200 Speaker 1: trade show and and you know, talking about conservation is 1032 01:00:16,240 --> 01:00:19,520 Speaker 1: probably not the coolest conversation in the room. You know, 1033 01:00:20,000 --> 01:00:22,280 Speaker 1: it's probably the guy who climbed l Cap and the 1034 01:00:22,360 --> 01:00:26,320 Speaker 1: guy who had some incredible hunt, you know, some incredible 1035 01:00:26,320 --> 01:00:29,760 Speaker 1: successful hunt that's filling up the auditoriums for the different 1036 01:00:29,760 --> 01:00:34,160 Speaker 1: seminars or whatever. But you know, I would argue that, yeah, 1037 01:00:34,200 --> 01:00:37,640 Speaker 1: to your point, like we hunters and people who recreate 1038 01:00:37,960 --> 01:00:42,960 Speaker 1: both need healthy ecosystems to do what they do, you know. 1039 01:00:43,120 --> 01:00:46,200 Speaker 1: I mean, if you're if you're somebody who goes to 1040 01:00:46,320 --> 01:00:50,760 Speaker 1: Yosemite to get a picture, you know, of a waterfall, 1041 01:00:51,320 --> 01:00:56,600 Speaker 1: you need snowpack and cold winters to have water filling 1042 01:00:56,600 --> 01:01:01,040 Speaker 1: those waterfalls that you know, A globe stewardship is something 1043 01:01:01,080 --> 01:01:03,040 Speaker 1: that helps that. You know, Hunters, if you want a 1044 01:01:03,080 --> 01:01:08,160 Speaker 1: big bull elk, you need a healthy ecosystem to support 1045 01:01:08,200 --> 01:01:12,440 Speaker 1: that bull elk um. So yeah, I think there are 1046 01:01:12,480 --> 01:01:18,240 Speaker 1: those kind of historical, preconceived notions that that have maintained 1047 01:01:18,240 --> 01:01:23,080 Speaker 1: the divide. And you know my yeah, like I said, 1048 01:01:23,120 --> 01:01:27,560 Speaker 1: my kind of mission is to help people realize that 1049 01:01:27,600 --> 01:01:30,440 Speaker 1: there's actually a lot of common ground. Yeah, And I 1050 01:01:30,480 --> 01:01:33,520 Speaker 1: mean there totally is. I mean I've talked to a 1051 01:01:33,520 --> 01:01:35,720 Speaker 1: lot of the leaders in the outdoor space, and you know, 1052 01:01:35,760 --> 01:01:38,360 Speaker 1: I think maybe they I thought, well, they you know, 1053 01:01:38,400 --> 01:01:40,400 Speaker 1: they obviously know I'm a hunter, so maybe they cringe 1054 01:01:40,400 --> 01:01:42,480 Speaker 1: and even talking to me, And that's not the case 1055 01:01:42,520 --> 01:01:45,760 Speaker 1: at all. Ever, They just you know, they need a 1056 01:01:45,800 --> 01:01:48,480 Speaker 1: little bit more knowledge from the angle work coming from 1057 01:01:48,480 --> 01:01:51,120 Speaker 1: and vice versa, just a little bit more. I mean, 1058 01:01:51,200 --> 01:01:54,400 Speaker 1: we're not that far off. And I think the worst 1059 01:01:54,440 --> 01:01:59,200 Speaker 1: thing that could happen is for hunters to be painted 1060 01:01:59,200 --> 01:02:01,280 Speaker 1: as people who don't care about the environment, because I 1061 01:02:01,320 --> 01:02:03,440 Speaker 1: find that most of the time not to be true. 1062 01:02:03,480 --> 01:02:07,200 Speaker 1: Because and and sure you could bring up trophy hunting 1063 01:02:07,280 --> 01:02:11,080 Speaker 1: or in some negative connotation and talk about how, um, 1064 01:02:11,120 --> 01:02:13,760 Speaker 1: some hunters are hunting for ego or hunting for their 1065 01:02:13,800 --> 01:02:17,840 Speaker 1: own personal vanity. Sure that's fine, there surely are some 1066 01:02:17,880 --> 01:02:20,560 Speaker 1: people doing that. But there's a lot of campers who litter, 1067 01:02:20,840 --> 01:02:23,520 Speaker 1: So I wouldn't paint all campers as litterers, just the 1068 01:02:23,560 --> 01:02:26,160 Speaker 1: same as I wouldn't paint all hunters as trophy hunters 1069 01:02:26,240 --> 01:02:28,920 Speaker 1: or whatever negative connotation we would we would call it. 1070 01:02:29,000 --> 01:02:33,320 Speaker 1: So I I certainly think the outdoor space sometimes it's 1071 01:02:33,320 --> 01:02:35,200 Speaker 1: guilty of that, And then I think the hunting space 1072 01:02:35,280 --> 01:02:38,680 Speaker 1: is guilty of of thinking, Hey, here's a bunch of 1073 01:02:38,760 --> 01:02:41,160 Speaker 1: left leaning greenies that don't don't think the way we 1074 01:02:41,200 --> 01:02:44,320 Speaker 1: think was that's not true either. I think there's there's 1075 01:02:46,400 --> 01:02:48,640 Speaker 1: less less truth in those two ideas than I think 1076 01:02:48,760 --> 01:02:52,000 Speaker 1: either side would want to admit. But it's close man, 1077 01:02:52,080 --> 01:02:58,080 Speaker 1: and guys like yourself are key. And then bringing it together, Yeah, 1078 01:02:58,080 --> 01:02:59,520 Speaker 1: I think you bring up a great point. I mean, 1079 01:03:01,280 --> 01:03:05,240 Speaker 1: there's people are always drawn to one end of the spectrum, right, 1080 01:03:05,640 --> 01:03:07,520 Speaker 1: This group of people is bad, this group of people 1081 01:03:07,560 --> 01:03:15,040 Speaker 1: is good. And the way I think about hunting, recreation, politics, anything, 1082 01:03:15,080 --> 01:03:17,200 Speaker 1: it's always a spectrum of best and could be better. 1083 01:03:17,640 --> 01:03:20,960 Speaker 1: There's always the bad apples that that you know, hold 1084 01:03:21,040 --> 01:03:26,320 Speaker 1: up the bottom of the spectrum. But yeah, I'd argue 1085 01:03:26,360 --> 01:03:28,120 Speaker 1: there's just as many hunters that could do a better 1086 01:03:28,200 --> 01:03:31,920 Speaker 1: job as there are outdoor you know, recreators who could 1087 01:03:31,920 --> 01:03:33,680 Speaker 1: do a better job, you know, and I think we 1088 01:03:33,760 --> 01:03:37,160 Speaker 1: just see I think we as you know, as people 1089 01:03:37,960 --> 01:03:39,920 Speaker 1: you know, with the platform in the industry and with 1090 01:03:40,280 --> 01:03:42,680 Speaker 1: peers and friends who have platforms, and we work with 1091 01:03:42,720 --> 01:03:45,160 Speaker 1: brands that have platforms, you know. I think if we 1092 01:03:46,080 --> 01:03:52,640 Speaker 1: create and and place value and those best examples, those stewards, 1093 01:03:52,640 --> 01:03:56,240 Speaker 1: those people who do what they do in a mindful 1094 01:03:56,280 --> 01:04:00,600 Speaker 1: way and aren't going about their business trying to propagate 1095 01:04:00,680 --> 01:04:03,640 Speaker 1: the divide, but rather do what's right, then I think 1096 01:04:03,680 --> 01:04:06,520 Speaker 1: we can move the needle towards that middle ground while 1097 01:04:06,600 --> 01:04:10,640 Speaker 1: celebrating people who aren't getting on the horn just to 1098 01:04:10,680 --> 01:04:14,360 Speaker 1: point fingers and you know, call people names. I mean, yeah, 1099 01:04:15,480 --> 01:04:18,200 Speaker 1: some of my best friends are hunters who hunt things 1100 01:04:18,240 --> 01:04:20,800 Speaker 1: that I might not hunt, but I don't judge them 1101 01:04:20,800 --> 01:04:23,840 Speaker 1: on a personal level. That's just it doesn't it's just 1102 01:04:23,880 --> 01:04:26,000 Speaker 1: something I'm not interested in doing, you know. I Mean, 1103 01:04:26,040 --> 01:04:28,480 Speaker 1: I had a friend the other day asked me if 1104 01:04:28,480 --> 01:04:31,360 Speaker 1: I wanted to go bear hunting the spring, and I 1105 01:04:31,440 --> 01:04:33,080 Speaker 1: was like, I'll go with you, but I'd probably shreek 1106 01:04:33,160 --> 01:04:37,360 Speaker 1: my camera and and that's not you know, that wasn't 1107 01:04:37,400 --> 01:04:40,920 Speaker 1: a reflection of me judging that person for wanting to 1108 01:04:41,000 --> 01:04:43,680 Speaker 1: go do that. You know, the bears that they were 1109 01:04:43,720 --> 01:04:47,200 Speaker 1: talking about hunting are from what I understand, a very 1110 01:04:47,200 --> 01:04:51,200 Speaker 1: well managed population that's doing fine. It's just like a 1111 01:04:51,200 --> 01:04:53,320 Speaker 1: personal thing and that's not you know, I think it's 1112 01:04:53,360 --> 01:04:55,000 Speaker 1: so easy for somebody to say, like, you're a bad 1113 01:04:55,000 --> 01:04:57,720 Speaker 1: person for doing this or you do that because you 1114 01:04:57,720 --> 01:05:00,800 Speaker 1: hang out with these people. It's like, I mean, I'm 1115 01:05:00,840 --> 01:05:04,480 Speaker 1: a U. C. Berkeley train, California born ecologists who lives 1116 01:05:04,480 --> 01:05:08,280 Speaker 1: in Montana, you know, who is working with the hunting 1117 01:05:08,280 --> 01:05:11,280 Speaker 1: brand Sitka on conservation as an advisor. Like, I'm a 1118 01:05:11,320 --> 01:05:16,320 Speaker 1: walking contradiction, but I'm not here to judge. I'm just 1119 01:05:16,440 --> 01:05:21,200 Speaker 1: here to help people talk about conservation and wildlife and 1120 01:05:21,400 --> 01:05:24,320 Speaker 1: ecology because they care about it. And that's it. Yeah, 1121 01:05:24,880 --> 01:05:26,720 Speaker 1: And I think that's where a lot of your value 1122 01:05:26,720 --> 01:05:31,200 Speaker 1: comes into. Everyone at hunts is we you know, there's 1123 01:05:31,240 --> 01:05:33,760 Speaker 1: echo chambers, and there's bubbles that we live in, and 1124 01:05:33,800 --> 01:05:36,960 Speaker 1: there's you know, groupthink, and a lot of that happens 1125 01:05:36,960 --> 01:05:39,360 Speaker 1: on all sides. Right, you kind of get polarized and 1126 01:05:39,400 --> 01:05:41,800 Speaker 1: you get to get to everybody living in a place 1127 01:05:41,840 --> 01:05:43,720 Speaker 1: where everybody agrees with the way you think and then 1128 01:05:43,800 --> 01:05:46,880 Speaker 1: life becomes easy. And then you push back anybody that 1129 01:05:46,880 --> 01:05:49,640 Speaker 1: that starts to eat away at your ideology that you've 1130 01:05:49,680 --> 01:05:52,400 Speaker 1: formed with a group of people. You know, when somebody 1131 01:05:52,440 --> 01:05:56,080 Speaker 1: like you comes along says I hunt, I'd like to hunt, 1132 01:05:56,800 --> 01:05:59,960 Speaker 1: But I'm also a scientist and an ecologist and a biologist, 1133 01:06:00,080 --> 01:06:04,280 Speaker 1: and I'm from my study that UC Berkeley, and I'm 1134 01:06:04,320 --> 01:06:07,920 Speaker 1: a California native. There's there's a lot in there that 1135 01:06:07,920 --> 01:06:13,640 Speaker 1: that doesn't seem to match up. But um, the overarching 1136 01:06:13,680 --> 01:06:16,760 Speaker 1: point is that you care, and you care from from 1137 01:06:16,800 --> 01:06:21,800 Speaker 1: a pragmatic level, not from from some gend up hashtag 1138 01:06:21,920 --> 01:06:24,560 Speaker 1: level that just trying to make people think that you're altruistic. 1139 01:06:24,600 --> 01:06:26,800 Speaker 1: You truly, you truly worked that way. So I think 1140 01:06:26,840 --> 01:06:30,480 Speaker 1: that's a good example of why all those things can 1141 01:06:30,520 --> 01:06:34,000 Speaker 1: come together. Yeah, and it's you know, it's been uh 1142 01:06:34,240 --> 01:06:37,600 Speaker 1: since moving to Montana. It's it's, you know, I've I've 1143 01:06:37,680 --> 01:06:42,400 Speaker 1: learned a lot. I've I've had to, you know, study 1144 01:06:42,840 --> 01:06:45,480 Speaker 1: topics that I hadn't thought a lot about. And you know, 1145 01:06:45,880 --> 01:06:49,520 Speaker 1: one of them that keeps popping up because it's so controversial. 1146 01:06:49,560 --> 01:06:52,760 Speaker 1: It's like wolves and grizly bears, and there's all these 1147 01:06:53,400 --> 01:07:00,160 Speaker 1: perspectives and papers and voices and fears and prejudice is 1148 01:07:00,360 --> 01:07:03,080 Speaker 1: you know, the list goes on. And what I keep 1149 01:07:03,120 --> 01:07:06,480 Speaker 1: coming back to after talking with biologists who work for 1150 01:07:06,480 --> 01:07:10,680 Speaker 1: the state, you know, decades of experience reading science papers, 1151 01:07:10,720 --> 01:07:14,960 Speaker 1: reading op eds, emillion people on the West Coast talking 1152 01:07:15,000 --> 01:07:19,520 Speaker 1: to locals. It's it all exists on a spectrum. You know, 1153 01:07:19,520 --> 01:07:23,880 Speaker 1: There's there's populations that are doing really well that you know, 1154 01:07:23,920 --> 01:07:26,439 Speaker 1: populations of bears and wolves that are doing well. There's 1155 01:07:26,480 --> 01:07:29,960 Speaker 1: populations of bears and wolves that are predisposed to conflict 1156 01:07:30,000 --> 01:07:31,920 Speaker 1: with humans. And there's populations and bears and wolves that 1157 01:07:31,960 --> 01:07:33,840 Speaker 1: probably see a few humans a year or in their 1158 01:07:33,920 --> 01:07:38,240 Speaker 1: entire life. So again we're talking about you know, you 1159 01:07:38,360 --> 01:07:40,720 Speaker 1: see the headlines and it's like wolves in Montana or 1160 01:07:40,800 --> 01:07:43,840 Speaker 1: bears and the Greater Yellowstone. I mean, Idaho is very 1161 01:07:43,840 --> 01:07:47,000 Speaker 1: different than Wyoming. Wyoming is very different than Montana, and 1162 01:07:47,000 --> 01:07:50,480 Speaker 1: all the little pockets where these animals exist are all 1163 01:07:50,600 --> 01:07:54,800 Speaker 1: very different. And the individuals. Yeah, you talk to the 1164 01:07:54,880 --> 01:07:57,760 Speaker 1: rancher in Idaho who has wolves killing all the elk? 1165 01:07:57,760 --> 01:07:59,600 Speaker 1: Can you kill them all? Kill every wolf in the 1166 01:08:00,000 --> 01:08:02,600 Speaker 1: lower forty eight And you talked to an area where 1167 01:08:02,600 --> 01:08:04,720 Speaker 1: do they barely ever see a wolf, but they know 1168 01:08:04,800 --> 01:08:08,280 Speaker 1: they're there and they're not. There's no tangible difference between 1169 01:08:08,320 --> 01:08:09,960 Speaker 1: the way they were and the way they are. They 1170 01:08:10,000 --> 01:08:13,280 Speaker 1: may have a different opinion, but you know, I hear 1171 01:08:13,280 --> 01:08:15,600 Speaker 1: in the hunting circles most times kill all wolves and 1172 01:08:15,640 --> 01:08:18,880 Speaker 1: even even coyotes, kill all coyotes. I hear that a 1173 01:08:18,880 --> 01:08:23,080 Speaker 1: whole time. I'm not I'm not sure just to pragmatician 1174 01:08:23,120 --> 01:08:25,519 Speaker 1: in me allows would allow that. And I'm sure the 1175 01:08:25,560 --> 01:08:28,080 Speaker 1: ecologists and you would not allow that type of thinking 1176 01:08:28,080 --> 01:08:31,799 Speaker 1: because it doesn't make any sense. Yeah, and the model, 1177 01:08:32,040 --> 01:08:34,360 Speaker 1: the Northern American model, doesn't allow that. I mean, we're 1178 01:08:34,360 --> 01:08:41,680 Speaker 1: not we're not. America is not pouring money into a 1179 01:08:41,800 --> 01:08:47,080 Speaker 1: wholesale extirpatient of these animals. You know, it's not legally 1180 01:08:47,080 --> 01:08:50,160 Speaker 1: that can't happen. So for even somebody to say, let's 1181 01:08:50,200 --> 01:08:52,400 Speaker 1: kill them all, I mean, that's not possible. So it's 1182 01:08:53,120 --> 01:08:55,200 Speaker 1: you know, there's no point even talking about it because 1183 01:08:55,240 --> 01:08:57,320 Speaker 1: it's not gonna happen. Well, at the same point, they're like, 1184 01:08:57,360 --> 01:08:59,200 Speaker 1: let's protect them all and kill none of them, you know. 1185 01:08:59,400 --> 01:09:04,160 Speaker 1: But you know when people talk about protecting all or 1186 01:09:04,240 --> 01:09:07,960 Speaker 1: killing all, and and and again, like people will tell 1187 01:09:08,000 --> 01:09:12,160 Speaker 1: you whether they love or hate wolves. Is that packs 1188 01:09:12,160 --> 01:09:16,920 Speaker 1: are different. You know, there's packs of personalities. Wolves have personalities. 1189 01:09:17,360 --> 01:09:19,600 Speaker 1: There are some that are predisposed to certain things and 1190 01:09:19,640 --> 01:09:21,360 Speaker 1: some that are predisposed to other things. You know, they're 1191 01:09:22,000 --> 01:09:26,960 Speaker 1: just like eagles can be a specialist and eating you know, 1192 01:09:27,120 --> 01:09:31,519 Speaker 1: rabbits or fish. You know, same with redtail hawks. Like 1193 01:09:31,840 --> 01:09:37,560 Speaker 1: packs and these these different animals and populations have tendencies. 1194 01:09:38,040 --> 01:09:39,880 Speaker 1: So I think that's like a great place to start talking. 1195 01:09:39,880 --> 01:09:43,080 Speaker 1: It's like, okay, cool, Well, when we look at these ecosystems, 1196 01:09:43,080 --> 01:09:46,640 Speaker 1: where is the potential for conflict where management might accomplish 1197 01:09:47,120 --> 01:09:50,439 Speaker 1: goal A, B and C. You know, if there is 1198 01:09:50,600 --> 01:09:55,080 Speaker 1: a place of conflict, like we should look at solutions 1199 01:09:55,120 --> 01:09:57,760 Speaker 1: across the spectrum. You know, are there five solutions? What 1200 01:09:57,840 --> 01:10:01,000 Speaker 1: are the most pragmatic three? You know, it doesn't have 1201 01:10:01,080 --> 01:10:02,600 Speaker 1: to be this to kill or not to kill, to 1202 01:10:02,640 --> 01:10:05,639 Speaker 1: save or not to save, you know. And and also 1203 01:10:05,680 --> 01:10:09,000 Speaker 1: if you think about these populations, whether it's elk or 1204 01:10:09,840 --> 01:10:14,000 Speaker 1: wolves or song birds, again, we need to think about 1205 01:10:14,040 --> 01:10:16,840 Speaker 1: these populations on the order of ten years, fifteen years, 1206 01:10:16,840 --> 01:10:19,280 Speaker 1: twenty years. You know, they might be fine and well today, 1207 01:10:19,920 --> 01:10:23,719 Speaker 1: increasing your declining today, but there could be a fire 1208 01:10:23,960 --> 01:10:25,559 Speaker 1: like there was in yellow Stone in the eighties that 1209 01:10:25,640 --> 01:10:28,639 Speaker 1: burned the biggest fire on record. You know, that happens, 1210 01:10:28,640 --> 01:10:31,240 Speaker 1: and it changes the ecosystem. It changes the elk population, 1211 01:10:32,120 --> 01:10:35,720 Speaker 1: It changes the way predators interact with one another and 1212 01:10:35,760 --> 01:10:41,400 Speaker 1: how they prey on you know, pray, animals. Um. So 1213 01:10:41,520 --> 01:10:46,440 Speaker 1: it's not just you know, I think people oversimplify wildlife 1214 01:10:46,520 --> 01:10:49,439 Speaker 1: management to a detriment. You know, they think it's just 1215 01:10:49,479 --> 01:10:53,559 Speaker 1: like you do one thing and you get one kind 1216 01:10:53,560 --> 01:10:56,840 Speaker 1: of you know, one effect, you know, But really it's 1217 01:10:57,360 --> 01:11:00,640 Speaker 1: you do one thing, twenty things happen, and maybe you 1218 01:11:00,640 --> 01:11:03,880 Speaker 1: only can see two of those things and the other 1219 01:11:04,720 --> 01:11:09,080 Speaker 1: you know, the others are are muddled and confused by 1220 01:11:09,160 --> 01:11:14,599 Speaker 1: all the different variables in an ecosystem, you know, elevation, temperature, rainfall, snow, 1221 01:11:14,640 --> 01:11:17,599 Speaker 1: pack uh, you know, whatever it might be. It could 1222 01:11:17,600 --> 01:11:20,280 Speaker 1: be a pine beetle infestation that you know, takes the 1223 01:11:21,920 --> 01:11:25,680 Speaker 1: pine seeds out of the bears, you know, food availability, 1224 01:11:25,680 --> 01:11:28,320 Speaker 1: and that changes the way bears engaged with young elk. 1225 01:11:30,120 --> 01:11:33,559 Speaker 1: It's complicated. Does that make it all the more amazing 1226 01:11:33,600 --> 01:11:36,120 Speaker 1: to you? That are like the you know, the model 1227 01:11:36,120 --> 01:11:39,479 Speaker 1: of conservation wasn't a thing until the eighties. As I 1228 01:11:39,560 --> 01:11:43,720 Speaker 1: learned from Shane Mahoney. But does it make it all 1229 01:11:43,760 --> 01:11:45,799 Speaker 1: the more amazed at to you that we took this model, 1230 01:11:45,840 --> 01:11:48,240 Speaker 1: this idea of how we would interact with animals as hunters, 1231 01:11:48,560 --> 01:11:52,800 Speaker 1: applied it across the board, and it generally worked for 1232 01:11:52,840 --> 01:11:55,120 Speaker 1: a bunch of different species and a bunch of different areas. 1233 01:11:55,160 --> 01:11:58,280 Speaker 1: I mean, is that just generally people caring about wildlife 1234 01:11:58,320 --> 01:11:59,680 Speaker 1: across the board is going to always have a good 1235 01:11:59,680 --> 01:12:03,280 Speaker 1: effect or is it just just a really good system 1236 01:12:03,400 --> 01:12:06,200 Speaker 1: or am I just a am I engaging in group 1237 01:12:06,240 --> 01:12:08,920 Speaker 1: think like that? That's so great? But I know that 1238 01:12:09,360 --> 01:12:15,559 Speaker 1: across all these you know, wildlife species, there was success. Turkeys, elk, ducks, 1239 01:12:15,840 --> 01:12:19,400 Speaker 1: dear so many. They interact with the natural world so 1240 01:12:19,520 --> 01:12:23,000 Speaker 1: differently and in such different environments that it's crazy that 1241 01:12:23,040 --> 01:12:28,000 Speaker 1: they all kind of improve the way they did. Yeah, 1242 01:12:28,040 --> 01:12:31,280 Speaker 1: you know, I think it's I think the success that 1243 01:12:31,320 --> 01:12:35,000 Speaker 1: the North American model has had in in sense its inception, 1244 01:12:36,040 --> 01:12:41,200 Speaker 1: isn't just a reflection of the success from a wildlife perspective. 1245 01:12:42,439 --> 01:12:45,519 Speaker 1: The success that that we've had in the United States 1246 01:12:46,080 --> 01:12:50,080 Speaker 1: is a reflection of society deciding that they weren't going 1247 01:12:50,160 --> 01:12:55,320 Speaker 1: to let pollution continue. They weren't gonna let damns continue. 1248 01:12:55,320 --> 01:12:59,240 Speaker 1: They weren't gonna let blind deforestation continue. They weren't gonna 1249 01:12:59,320 --> 01:13:02,280 Speaker 1: let d d T continue. You know, I think the 1250 01:13:02,360 --> 01:13:05,040 Speaker 1: success of elk, or the success of bighorn sheep, or 1251 01:13:05,080 --> 01:13:09,400 Speaker 1: any kind of charismatic megafauna that we use as a 1252 01:13:09,439 --> 01:13:14,479 Speaker 1: metric for success in the wildlife space, success is a 1253 01:13:14,520 --> 01:13:20,400 Speaker 1: reflection of all the agencies, management agencies working towards a 1254 01:13:20,439 --> 01:13:23,040 Speaker 1: goal of protecting and preserving or public lands and these 1255 01:13:23,120 --> 01:13:25,120 Speaker 1: natural resources that we rely on, whether it's clean air, 1256 01:13:25,120 --> 01:13:31,080 Speaker 1: clean water, healthy forests, healthy wildlife. And I think society 1257 01:13:31,120 --> 01:13:35,760 Speaker 1: at large, you know, has decided that we want waterfowl, 1258 01:13:35,840 --> 01:13:40,360 Speaker 1: we want song words, we want these different things to exist. 1259 01:13:41,000 --> 01:13:43,360 Speaker 1: And it's not just one agency saying like, oh, we're 1260 01:13:43,400 --> 01:13:49,280 Speaker 1: gonna let's prevent you know, elk from going extinct, and 1261 01:13:49,479 --> 01:13:52,439 Speaker 1: let's do that. You know, they're here because all these 1262 01:13:52,439 --> 01:13:56,519 Speaker 1: other players have been at the table, putting their time 1263 01:13:56,520 --> 01:14:00,200 Speaker 1: and energy into their their little battles. But the the 1264 01:14:00,360 --> 01:14:04,840 Speaker 1: end goal, the end victory, is this holistic protection of 1265 01:14:04,439 --> 01:14:07,639 Speaker 1: of America, you know. And I mean if you read 1266 01:14:07,760 --> 01:14:13,400 Speaker 1: thorows writings about walking the East Coast, he was you know, 1267 01:14:13,439 --> 01:14:15,719 Speaker 1: if you read his journal entries. He was talking about 1268 01:14:15,760 --> 01:14:18,840 Speaker 1: how disappointed he was to the degree at which the 1269 01:14:18,840 --> 01:14:21,200 Speaker 1: East Coast had been degraded. You know, the swans weren't 1270 01:14:21,200 --> 01:14:23,240 Speaker 1: as abundant as they were fifty years before. The waterfowl 1271 01:14:23,240 --> 01:14:25,560 Speaker 1: weren't as abundant, you know, and that was in the 1272 01:14:25,640 --> 01:14:30,599 Speaker 1: eighteen hundreds. So, I mean, we have centuries of of 1273 01:14:30,720 --> 01:14:33,120 Speaker 1: moving the needle in the right direction, you know, whether 1274 01:14:33,200 --> 01:14:36,799 Speaker 1: that was women deciding they weren't gonna where egert feathers 1275 01:14:36,800 --> 01:14:39,960 Speaker 1: in their hats and Teddy Roosevelt carrying their plea and 1276 01:14:40,000 --> 01:14:44,599 Speaker 1: protecting shore birds in Florida, you know, way back when. 1277 01:14:45,200 --> 01:14:47,920 Speaker 1: I mean, it's been all these little initiatives that if 1278 01:14:47,960 --> 01:14:54,840 Speaker 1: I think, predisposed these different agencies to succeed. You know, 1279 01:14:54,880 --> 01:14:58,440 Speaker 1: it's been a societal thing. You know, things generally succeed 1280 01:14:58,439 --> 01:15:04,680 Speaker 1: when the society decides that that's the move. Um, And 1281 01:15:04,720 --> 01:15:08,400 Speaker 1: I think, yeah, I mean, for better or for worse, 1282 01:15:08,600 --> 01:15:12,800 Speaker 1: you know. And maybe I'm not educated enough to make 1283 01:15:13,160 --> 01:15:16,880 Speaker 1: a statement like this, but I would argue that the 1284 01:15:17,000 --> 01:15:20,360 Speaker 1: ivory situation and the rhino situation, the elephant situation is 1285 01:15:21,600 --> 01:15:24,400 Speaker 1: such a challenging one because there are so many people 1286 01:15:24,640 --> 01:15:28,800 Speaker 1: pushing the needle in different directions. Yeah, you know, whether 1287 01:15:28,880 --> 01:15:31,479 Speaker 1: it's uh yeah, So I just think there's a lot 1288 01:15:31,520 --> 01:15:33,439 Speaker 1: of things. Yeah, you're what you're saying is there's no 1289 01:15:33,479 --> 01:15:37,160 Speaker 1: agreed upon value system. There's no yea. Yeah, we all 1290 01:15:37,200 --> 01:15:40,080 Speaker 1: care about these elephants. Half the side just wants to 1291 01:15:40,120 --> 01:15:41,960 Speaker 1: kill them all for their tasks. The other half wants 1292 01:15:41,960 --> 01:15:46,200 Speaker 1: to save him. In this country, d percent people agree 1293 01:15:46,240 --> 01:15:49,559 Speaker 1: that elk should always be around. There's never any there's 1294 01:15:49,600 --> 01:15:52,880 Speaker 1: no doubt in that exactly. Yeah, and I think you know, 1295 01:15:52,960 --> 01:15:55,400 Speaker 1: we can all agree we don't want our rivers burning 1296 01:15:55,479 --> 01:15:57,080 Speaker 1: like they did in the fifties or forgot the name 1297 01:15:57,080 --> 01:15:59,160 Speaker 1: of the river. But there was that famous example that 1298 01:15:59,240 --> 01:16:02,200 Speaker 1: inspired the Clean Water Act. Um, I think the rivers 1299 01:16:02,200 --> 01:16:04,600 Speaker 1: in Ohio and it literally caught on fire in the 1300 01:16:04,640 --> 01:16:07,160 Speaker 1: United States. Like, wow, we have major rivers in the 1301 01:16:07,240 --> 01:16:09,639 Speaker 1: United States that are literally catching on fire. We should 1302 01:16:09,880 --> 01:16:15,719 Speaker 1: prevent pollution, you know, we should maintain healthy and clean waterways. Um. 1303 01:16:15,840 --> 01:16:20,280 Speaker 1: Obviously pollution is something and there's no way there's no 1304 01:16:20,960 --> 01:16:23,719 Speaker 1: in Africa, of course is a continent, not a country. 1305 01:16:23,760 --> 01:16:27,200 Speaker 1: But in countries in Africa, there isn't that same idea. 1306 01:16:27,240 --> 01:16:29,639 Speaker 1: There isn't that same like all these things are dying, 1307 01:16:30,640 --> 01:16:33,040 Speaker 1: it's up to us to save them, just because they 1308 01:16:33,120 --> 01:16:37,080 Speaker 1: got other stuff to worry about. The economically struggling um 1309 01:16:37,439 --> 01:16:39,719 Speaker 1: there are a lot of it. It's an impoverished nation. 1310 01:16:39,800 --> 01:16:42,639 Speaker 1: So they just don't corrupt in a lot of places 1311 01:16:42,640 --> 01:16:46,839 Speaker 1: down there. So that's way oversimplifying a very complicated conversation, 1312 01:16:46,880 --> 01:16:50,439 Speaker 1: but that is to say, there just isn't There isn't 1313 01:16:50,439 --> 01:16:54,200 Speaker 1: the spot like like we've shown the spotlight. Yeah, I 1314 01:16:54,760 --> 01:16:58,040 Speaker 1: totally agree, and that, you know, I think I think 1315 01:16:58,040 --> 01:17:01,000 Speaker 1: public perception is another thing that that will arises these issues, 1316 01:17:01,000 --> 01:17:05,000 Speaker 1: you know. And and two things that come to mind is, 1317 01:17:05,200 --> 01:17:07,479 Speaker 1: you know Earth Day people are always saying, let's plant trees. 1318 01:17:08,800 --> 01:17:14,160 Speaker 1: There's a great story taking place in Scotland where communities 1319 01:17:14,200 --> 01:17:17,120 Speaker 1: are being paid to cut down pine tree plantations that 1320 01:17:17,120 --> 01:17:19,880 Speaker 1: were planted to build ships in the nineteen and eighteen 1321 01:17:19,960 --> 01:17:24,559 Speaker 1: hundreds because the peat bogs that are that used to 1322 01:17:24,560 --> 01:17:27,519 Speaker 1: exist throughout Scotland are better it's equestering carbon than trees. 1323 01:17:28,040 --> 01:17:30,559 Speaker 1: So if you actually want to have an effect on climate, 1324 01:17:30,640 --> 01:17:32,160 Speaker 1: some of the best things you can do they're cut 1325 01:17:32,200 --> 01:17:34,920 Speaker 1: down these pine plantations and return them to peat bogs. 1326 01:17:35,840 --> 01:17:40,080 Speaker 1: In America, people say let's plant trees in a lot 1327 01:17:40,080 --> 01:17:42,160 Speaker 1: of places. There's more trees than there ever have been. 1328 01:17:42,280 --> 01:17:45,400 Speaker 1: And actually our most imperiled ecosystems are stagebrush communities and 1329 01:17:45,439 --> 01:17:48,840 Speaker 1: perennial bunch grass communities. So what I tell brands is like, 1330 01:17:48,920 --> 01:17:51,400 Speaker 1: don't do a story about planting trees. Go to a 1331 01:17:51,400 --> 01:17:53,439 Speaker 1: story about some guy who's planting or some gal who's 1332 01:17:53,439 --> 01:17:57,599 Speaker 1: planting bunch grasses and the great Plains. You know, that's 1333 01:17:57,640 --> 01:17:59,360 Speaker 1: going to do more for the ecosystem. That's going to 1334 01:17:59,400 --> 01:18:03,040 Speaker 1: be more for water retention and and and kind of 1335 01:18:03,080 --> 01:18:06,200 Speaker 1: overall health. Then planting a tree in a lot of places. Yeah, 1336 01:18:06,479 --> 01:18:09,960 Speaker 1: that's happening in all over. Are in politics and culture, 1337 01:18:10,120 --> 01:18:13,920 Speaker 1: like everybody to looking for the feel good, simple, easy 1338 01:18:13,920 --> 01:18:17,320 Speaker 1: to digest action, right that that's so, so then they 1339 01:18:17,360 --> 01:18:19,360 Speaker 1: can call themselves whatever they want to be. You know, 1340 01:18:19,400 --> 01:18:21,680 Speaker 1: if I want to be a environmentalist, I'm gonna go 1341 01:18:21,720 --> 01:18:23,960 Speaker 1: planet tree and hashtag at Earth Day in the alm 1342 01:18:24,000 --> 01:18:28,360 Speaker 1: an environmentally. If I'm if I want to be an activist, 1343 01:18:28,360 --> 01:18:30,679 Speaker 1: I go and I fill out my basic information into 1344 01:18:30,680 --> 01:18:33,479 Speaker 1: an online form that that votes in some kind of 1345 01:18:33,560 --> 01:18:38,120 Speaker 1: protest in ah in such a way that a million 1346 01:18:38,160 --> 01:18:39,880 Speaker 1: of us have done that simple act. And now I'm 1347 01:18:39,880 --> 01:18:42,639 Speaker 1: an activist like that. You know, it's it's not the doing, 1348 01:18:42,720 --> 01:18:46,160 Speaker 1: it's the acting, right, Yeah, and in acting in a 1349 01:18:46,560 --> 01:18:50,519 Speaker 1: from an informed place, because you know, a story that 1350 01:18:51,040 --> 01:18:53,280 Speaker 1: comes to mind as a friend of mine is, uh, 1351 01:18:53,760 --> 01:18:56,679 Speaker 1: he's part of a big expedition in in in Africa, 1352 01:18:57,160 --> 01:19:02,000 Speaker 1: um in Angola. It's a National Geographic fact expedition to 1353 01:19:02,040 --> 01:19:07,360 Speaker 1: protect the Okavango Delta. And it's an incredible story and 1354 01:19:07,360 --> 01:19:10,719 Speaker 1: it's incredible what they've accomplished, you know, helping to protect 1355 01:19:10,760 --> 01:19:13,519 Speaker 1: this this great watershed. And and he told me about 1356 01:19:14,080 --> 01:19:18,920 Speaker 1: coming across some poachers who had killed an elephant. And 1357 01:19:19,800 --> 01:19:22,120 Speaker 1: he walked up and was kind of just obviously the 1358 01:19:22,160 --> 01:19:25,880 Speaker 1: scene was ah, it was a sad one was troubling 1359 01:19:25,880 --> 01:19:28,360 Speaker 1: to see. And I asked him, as said, you know, 1360 01:19:28,360 --> 01:19:31,840 Speaker 1: what was that like to come across people doing that? 1361 01:19:31,960 --> 01:19:35,280 Speaker 1: And he said their response was, I have to feed 1362 01:19:35,320 --> 01:19:37,760 Speaker 1: my family. I have no other option. I realized that 1363 01:19:38,200 --> 01:19:42,719 Speaker 1: caringless animal is illegal. I realized it takes eco tours 1364 01:19:42,720 --> 01:19:47,080 Speaker 1: and dollars you know, away from the future. Uh, you know, 1365 01:19:47,120 --> 01:19:50,720 Speaker 1: has all these negative impacts. But you know, I need 1366 01:19:50,720 --> 01:19:53,719 Speaker 1: to put food in my kid's bellies. And it's easy 1367 01:19:53,800 --> 01:19:58,240 Speaker 1: for somebody from America to make a statement about that. 1368 01:19:58,360 --> 01:20:01,160 Speaker 1: And yes, you know, I think we can all agree 1369 01:20:01,200 --> 01:20:05,080 Speaker 1: that elephants need to be protected, you know. But I 1370 01:20:05,080 --> 01:20:06,280 Speaker 1: think the reason why I bring it up is that 1371 01:20:06,320 --> 01:20:08,880 Speaker 1: it's it's it's a complicated thing. There's a lot of 1372 01:20:09,000 --> 01:20:12,639 Speaker 1: drivers influencing the reality on the ground, and and those 1373 01:20:12,720 --> 01:20:18,680 Speaker 1: drivers very dramatically between countries and probably regions within those countries. Uh. 1374 01:20:18,720 --> 01:20:22,280 Speaker 1: And I think again, when we talk about wildlife in America, 1375 01:20:22,400 --> 01:20:24,400 Speaker 1: you know, the Southeast is very different than Texas, and 1376 01:20:24,400 --> 01:20:26,680 Speaker 1: Texas is very different than California, and California is very 1377 01:20:26,680 --> 01:20:30,679 Speaker 1: different than Montana. Um So, moving away from those those 1378 01:20:30,720 --> 01:20:35,880 Speaker 1: broad assumption assumptions and whether it's painting hunters is bad 1379 01:20:35,960 --> 01:20:38,720 Speaker 1: or good, or recreation people in their recreation space is 1380 01:20:38,760 --> 01:20:41,519 Speaker 1: bad or good, it's I think it's just best to 1381 01:20:41,560 --> 01:20:44,519 Speaker 1: promote the best examples and if there's a complicated issue 1382 01:20:44,600 --> 01:20:47,599 Speaker 1: like wolves, to just say it's complicated, and I don't 1383 01:20:47,640 --> 01:20:52,400 Speaker 1: need to give you a yes or no. Yeah, absolutely, 1384 01:20:52,640 --> 01:20:55,720 Speaker 1: And anybody, I mean, you think if you're anti this 1385 01:20:55,920 --> 01:20:58,200 Speaker 1: or that, like being anti is a very complicated thing. 1386 01:20:58,320 --> 01:21:02,200 Speaker 1: That's simple. We've simplified it into like this easy too 1387 01:21:02,400 --> 01:21:05,200 Speaker 1: easy to codify, like I'm anti this so already. Really, 1388 01:21:05,600 --> 01:21:09,880 Speaker 1: what the funk are you talking about? You? I'm anti milk? 1389 01:21:09,960 --> 01:21:14,719 Speaker 1: Like what? You can't just be anti something without having 1390 01:21:14,720 --> 01:21:16,720 Speaker 1: thought it through. And I always say that to the 1391 01:21:16,840 --> 01:21:21,439 Speaker 1: people that are self proclaimed anti hunters. You say, like, look, man, 1392 01:21:22,080 --> 01:21:26,080 Speaker 1: if you if you were impoverished and starving and the 1393 01:21:26,160 --> 01:21:29,200 Speaker 1: only way that you could live is to shoot a deer, 1394 01:21:29,600 --> 01:21:32,679 Speaker 1: I promise you, I promise you, unless you're an idiot, 1395 01:21:32,760 --> 01:21:35,400 Speaker 1: you would shoot that deer all day long and drag 1396 01:21:35,439 --> 01:21:37,120 Speaker 1: it off into the bushes and cut it up and 1397 01:21:37,120 --> 01:21:39,559 Speaker 1: eat it to survive. You just happen to live in 1398 01:21:39,600 --> 01:21:44,639 Speaker 1: a soft version of our human existence, whereas you can 1399 01:21:44,840 --> 01:21:47,479 Speaker 1: pick whether you want to eat a piece of lettuce 1400 01:21:47,840 --> 01:21:50,200 Speaker 1: or an orange or a piece of meat, because it's 1401 01:21:50,240 --> 01:21:52,920 Speaker 1: all in a nice, air conditioned building, in a maze 1402 01:21:52,960 --> 01:21:54,360 Speaker 1: that you walk through and pick what you want and 1403 01:21:54,400 --> 01:21:56,840 Speaker 1: put it in a in a basket. Like that's the 1404 01:21:56,880 --> 01:22:00,280 Speaker 1: only reason that really to me that human to have 1405 01:22:00,960 --> 01:22:06,840 Speaker 1: evolved into either vegetarians or it's selective. You're selecting what 1406 01:22:06,840 --> 01:22:10,240 Speaker 1: what what you want to eat based on emotionality and 1407 01:22:10,320 --> 01:22:12,400 Speaker 1: virtue signaling and all those types of things, and a 1408 01:22:12,400 --> 01:22:14,840 Speaker 1: lot of in a lot of cases. Surely there's people 1409 01:22:14,840 --> 01:22:18,920 Speaker 1: that eat vegetables only because of health reasons. I'm cool 1410 01:22:18,960 --> 01:22:24,280 Speaker 1: with that, but you gotta you gotta remember that there's 1411 01:22:24,960 --> 01:22:28,439 Speaker 1: especially in Africa, like you said, there's people that just 1412 01:22:28,520 --> 01:22:32,160 Speaker 1: do not have options. They have one option, killed to 1413 01:22:32,200 --> 01:22:37,599 Speaker 1: eat or die. That's that's their scenario that they live in. Yeah, 1414 01:22:37,640 --> 01:22:41,960 Speaker 1: and I think your point about anti hunters or non 1415 01:22:42,040 --> 01:22:46,160 Speaker 1: hunters or whatever, people who are anti something. You know, 1416 01:22:46,160 --> 01:22:47,640 Speaker 1: one of the things that I like to bring up 1417 01:22:47,720 --> 01:22:51,960 Speaker 1: is you can be a vegan and say that because I, 1418 01:22:53,360 --> 01:22:56,960 Speaker 1: you know, shot an elk bow hunting last year, that 1419 01:22:57,240 --> 01:23:01,439 Speaker 1: I'm bad or or whatever. You're kind of uh issues 1420 01:23:01,520 --> 01:23:05,040 Speaker 1: with that, you know. My response is, Okay, Well, you're 1421 01:23:05,040 --> 01:23:08,000 Speaker 1: a vegan and you have a shirt that's probably not organic, 1422 01:23:08,160 --> 01:23:12,040 Speaker 1: probably not a cotton drive. A car might be a Prius, 1423 01:23:12,080 --> 01:23:14,920 Speaker 1: but you have a really toxic battery in that prius. 1424 01:23:16,040 --> 01:23:20,479 Speaker 1: You have petroleum based tires, plastic all over the thing. 1425 01:23:20,640 --> 01:23:23,360 Speaker 1: You probably eat strawberries. A lot of strawberries are super heavy, 1426 01:23:23,520 --> 01:23:26,840 Speaker 1: require a lot of pesticides. Probably bananas. Those are wrapped 1427 01:23:26,840 --> 01:23:32,479 Speaker 1: in plastic um. Generally they fill creeks and rivers in 1428 01:23:32,479 --> 01:23:34,280 Speaker 1: Central and South America. If you've been there, you would 1429 01:23:34,280 --> 01:23:36,559 Speaker 1: have seen it. They go into the river, they are 1430 01:23:36,560 --> 01:23:39,280 Speaker 1: solid by turtles and killed tons of turtles. And you know, 1431 01:23:39,400 --> 01:23:42,240 Speaker 1: the list goes on. And I think it's not a 1432 01:23:42,240 --> 01:23:44,439 Speaker 1: an attempt to say you're bad. I'm better, But it's 1433 01:23:45,320 --> 01:23:46,880 Speaker 1: the worst thing we ever did for the planet was 1434 01:23:47,040 --> 01:23:49,280 Speaker 1: when we were born, you know. I mean, it's just 1435 01:23:49,360 --> 01:23:53,759 Speaker 1: a too many people on Earth situation, and everybody isn't impact. 1436 01:23:53,800 --> 01:23:57,120 Speaker 1: Whether you're hunting a deer eating the strawberry, you know 1437 01:23:57,640 --> 01:24:01,800 Speaker 1: something is dying because of that. You know, well that's 1438 01:24:01,800 --> 01:24:04,880 Speaker 1: something is dying. Part you wake up like we're designed. 1439 01:24:04,960 --> 01:24:08,040 Speaker 1: We were designed a certain way to function in this 1440 01:24:08,360 --> 01:24:10,960 Speaker 1: in this natural world. Like when you wake up and 1441 01:24:11,000 --> 01:24:14,040 Speaker 1: you start to consume things. Immediately you breathe air, you 1442 01:24:14,200 --> 01:24:18,200 Speaker 1: blow out carbon like you you're consuming. You're walking around. 1443 01:24:18,200 --> 01:24:20,960 Speaker 1: Every footstep you make has an impact, every road you 1444 01:24:21,080 --> 01:24:23,200 Speaker 1: drive on, every card you get it and has an impact. 1445 01:24:23,320 --> 01:24:27,320 Speaker 1: And there's no way it's some form of of strange 1446 01:24:27,400 --> 01:24:32,800 Speaker 1: kind of insanity to think that that you're lessening one 1447 01:24:33,040 --> 01:24:37,320 Speaker 1: your chosen version of lessening that impact is more ratualistic 1448 01:24:37,400 --> 01:24:40,439 Speaker 1: than than someone else, or somehow that you can you 1449 01:24:40,479 --> 01:24:44,960 Speaker 1: find yourself um with no guilt based on your humanity. 1450 01:24:45,000 --> 01:24:46,680 Speaker 1: I mean, there isn't. I mean, if you really think 1451 01:24:46,720 --> 01:24:48,840 Speaker 1: about it, that that's what humanity would be based on, 1452 01:24:48,920 --> 01:24:52,320 Speaker 1: just the guilt of having to live as a consumptive 1453 01:24:52,880 --> 01:24:55,720 Speaker 1: being and that's what we are. And so I'm not 1454 01:24:56,520 --> 01:24:59,240 Speaker 1: am I guilty about that? Yeah? Yeah, sure at some level. 1455 01:24:59,720 --> 01:25:02,600 Speaker 1: But find it's a better way to function if you 1456 01:25:02,720 --> 01:25:04,880 Speaker 1: just dive into your consumptive nature trying to figure the 1457 01:25:04,920 --> 01:25:07,439 Speaker 1: damn thing out. Because I certainly went from being a 1458 01:25:07,479 --> 01:25:09,760 Speaker 1: hunter to really want in the garden to really want 1459 01:25:09,800 --> 01:25:13,439 Speaker 1: to have chickens, uh not the other way around. It 1460 01:25:13,800 --> 01:25:15,280 Speaker 1: was like, well, hunting is is a great way to 1461 01:25:15,280 --> 01:25:18,080 Speaker 1: consume meat? What about what about can I do that 1462 01:25:18,120 --> 01:25:20,160 Speaker 1: in the same way with all the other stuff? And 1463 01:25:20,160 --> 01:25:23,559 Speaker 1: and I've evolved that way, and I imagine a lot 1464 01:25:23,560 --> 01:25:25,240 Speaker 1: of people and maybe a lot of people you know, 1465 01:25:25,320 --> 01:25:28,120 Speaker 1: are evolving the opposite way. They garden have chickens and 1466 01:25:28,240 --> 01:25:31,639 Speaker 1: realize that hunting might also be akin to what they're 1467 01:25:31,640 --> 01:25:35,760 Speaker 1: doing in their backyard. Absolutely, and you know, and I 1468 01:25:35,800 --> 01:25:45,080 Speaker 1: think I think the answer there is just that the 1469 01:25:45,120 --> 01:25:46,840 Speaker 1: world would be a better place of people are just 1470 01:25:46,800 --> 01:25:49,000 Speaker 1: little bit more thoughtful, you know, and really kind of 1471 01:25:49,040 --> 01:25:52,439 Speaker 1: like paused and said, Okay, these are the choices I've made. 1472 01:25:52,479 --> 01:25:55,080 Speaker 1: This is how I've chose to live my life. Vegan, 1473 01:25:55,120 --> 01:25:59,479 Speaker 1: non hunter, hunter, farmer, whatever you wanna do. And I 1474 01:25:59,520 --> 01:26:03,760 Speaker 1: think just thinking about those choices and the impacts of 1475 01:26:03,760 --> 01:26:07,280 Speaker 1: those choices is where society needs to go because a 1476 01:26:07,360 --> 01:26:09,559 Speaker 1: lot of people don't think about them, and that's where 1477 01:26:09,560 --> 01:26:15,680 Speaker 1: we get the polarizing, ah, precon preconceived notions. I think 1478 01:26:15,680 --> 01:26:18,840 Speaker 1: that's where we propagate divide. I think that's where we 1479 01:26:18,880 --> 01:26:22,679 Speaker 1: don't work together. I think that's where we create enemies. 1480 01:26:22,720 --> 01:26:26,000 Speaker 1: And I think the key is just saying, Okay, choose 1481 01:26:26,000 --> 01:26:28,800 Speaker 1: whatever you want to do, don't impose on other people, 1482 01:26:28,880 --> 01:26:30,760 Speaker 1: but just think about why you do what you do 1483 01:26:30,800 --> 01:26:34,240 Speaker 1: and how that helps the endgame of of conservation or 1484 01:26:34,280 --> 01:26:38,000 Speaker 1: stewardship or or whatever your mission is. And I think 1485 01:26:38,000 --> 01:26:40,360 Speaker 1: that's that's just a beautiful part, right that we're having 1486 01:26:40,360 --> 01:26:42,680 Speaker 1: this conversation. Is the beautiful part that it is that 1487 01:26:42,800 --> 01:26:45,599 Speaker 1: complex and it does. You can talk for a couple 1488 01:26:45,640 --> 01:26:48,040 Speaker 1: hours on just one little aspect of it and it 1489 01:26:48,120 --> 01:26:51,439 Speaker 1: can all be worthwhile. That there's no way to boil 1490 01:26:51,479 --> 01:26:53,639 Speaker 1: this damn thing down. You can't do it. If you're 1491 01:26:53,720 --> 01:26:57,760 Speaker 1: trying to do it is an exercise and just insanity. 1492 01:26:58,120 --> 01:27:00,599 Speaker 1: There's no way. I mean, as you said, there's how 1493 01:27:00,640 --> 01:27:05,000 Speaker 1: many ecosystems in Bozeman, Montana are working right now to 1494 01:27:05,000 --> 01:27:07,800 Speaker 1: create that environment and have it thrived. You couldn't list 1495 01:27:07,840 --> 01:27:10,800 Speaker 1: them all, all the different species that are that are 1496 01:27:10,840 --> 01:27:17,639 Speaker 1: out there cohabitating and working with us in some way. Yeah. 1497 01:27:17,680 --> 01:27:20,120 Speaker 1: And I think the hunting that you know has been 1498 01:27:21,439 --> 01:27:25,280 Speaker 1: has been really eye opening. A lot of people that 1499 01:27:25,360 --> 01:27:28,559 Speaker 1: I grew up with and and you know, considering my 1500 01:27:28,600 --> 01:27:30,920 Speaker 1: close circle don't hunt. You know, I was probably the 1501 01:27:30,960 --> 01:27:32,800 Speaker 1: only kid in my high school that hunted growing up. 1502 01:27:32,800 --> 01:27:37,880 Speaker 1: And to bring my fiancee, you know, she's an artist 1503 01:27:37,960 --> 01:27:40,280 Speaker 1: named Rachel Pole. She she did grew up in hunting family, 1504 01:27:40,479 --> 01:27:44,400 Speaker 1: and we went. She came with me almost every day 1505 01:27:44,400 --> 01:27:49,040 Speaker 1: of this fall, and I think she realized not only 1506 01:27:49,640 --> 01:27:53,160 Speaker 1: what hunting is about, that it's that it's this really challenging, 1507 01:27:53,360 --> 01:27:59,679 Speaker 1: exciting immersion and an ecosystem, but that sometimes some years 1508 01:28:00,600 --> 01:28:06,559 Speaker 1: you succeed. And to see her honor grow for these 1509 01:28:06,600 --> 01:28:09,160 Speaker 1: meals we're sharing with our friends and family, and to 1510 01:28:09,200 --> 01:28:12,599 Speaker 1: see her developed that interest in going out this fall 1511 01:28:13,240 --> 01:28:16,280 Speaker 1: and hunting it's a is a really exciting things. It's 1512 01:28:16,360 --> 01:28:19,840 Speaker 1: it's a similar reverence that you get when you grow strawberries. 1513 01:28:19,880 --> 01:28:22,880 Speaker 1: Strawberries are hard to grow, especially out of a greenhouse, 1514 01:28:23,280 --> 01:28:25,920 Speaker 1: and I have been an avid gardener for a lot 1515 01:28:25,960 --> 01:28:28,280 Speaker 1: of my adult life in the years that you have 1516 01:28:28,320 --> 01:28:31,080 Speaker 1: a good strawberry plant, I mean, you eat those strawberries 1517 01:28:31,120 --> 01:28:33,400 Speaker 1: with such reverence, you know, when you share them with 1518 01:28:33,400 --> 01:28:35,639 Speaker 1: your friends, You're like, only have four and you can 1519 01:28:35,640 --> 01:28:36,880 Speaker 1: have one of them. And I just want you to 1520 01:28:36,920 --> 01:28:39,400 Speaker 1: know that I for the last week, I've been out 1521 01:28:39,400 --> 01:28:42,280 Speaker 1: with my headlamp peeling slugs off my strawberry plant to 1522 01:28:42,320 --> 01:28:45,960 Speaker 1: make the dirt. I want to kick you and the ships. Yeah, totally, 1523 01:28:46,000 --> 01:28:49,439 Speaker 1: you know. And it's just it's one of my proudest 1524 01:28:49,479 --> 01:28:52,519 Speaker 1: moments last or two years ago, was I had the 1525 01:28:52,560 --> 01:28:54,880 Speaker 1: strawberry plant and friends would come over and like, Okay, 1526 01:28:54,920 --> 01:28:56,519 Speaker 1: don't touch that one. Don't touch that one. You can 1527 01:28:56,520 --> 01:29:00,519 Speaker 1: have this little one, you know, And it's it's kind 1528 01:29:00,520 --> 01:29:03,920 Speaker 1: of like you go on this hunter you you know, 1529 01:29:04,080 --> 01:29:06,200 Speaker 1: or you grow flowers in your garden, gives your mom 1530 01:29:06,320 --> 01:29:08,360 Speaker 1: and it's just it's such a different thing when you 1531 01:29:08,400 --> 01:29:12,320 Speaker 1: know what's gone into into that, you know, whether it's 1532 01:29:12,320 --> 01:29:14,679 Speaker 1: food or a gift or just an experience, and it's 1533 01:29:16,000 --> 01:29:19,120 Speaker 1: it's probably the richest part of my life is just 1534 01:29:19,200 --> 01:29:22,680 Speaker 1: that relationships with the land. I talked about that in 1535 01:29:22,680 --> 01:29:26,719 Speaker 1: the earlier podcast about where my wife specifically, I feel 1536 01:29:26,720 --> 01:29:28,639 Speaker 1: like I've perfected the way to cook an elk back 1537 01:29:28,640 --> 01:29:31,960 Speaker 1: strap or a whatever. I had this, like it took 1538 01:29:32,000 --> 01:29:34,320 Speaker 1: me years decade to get it to the point where 1539 01:29:34,320 --> 01:29:36,200 Speaker 1: I know how to do it. I like it every time, 1540 01:29:37,040 --> 01:29:40,439 Speaker 1: and I would go home and I'd be working late 1541 01:29:40,439 --> 01:29:42,200 Speaker 1: and my wife would cook up in elk steak and 1542 01:29:42,520 --> 01:29:44,280 Speaker 1: you know, the baby would be run around and should 1543 01:29:44,280 --> 01:29:45,880 Speaker 1: forget to pull it out on time, and it'd be 1544 01:29:45,880 --> 01:29:50,200 Speaker 1: like ten degrees uh internal temperature warmer than I would 1545 01:29:50,200 --> 01:29:52,840 Speaker 1: have cooked it. And I and I find myself being 1546 01:29:52,840 --> 01:29:55,479 Speaker 1: a bit of an asshole about that. Come on, Hannah, 1547 01:29:55,560 --> 01:29:58,240 Speaker 1: what are you doing? Get it together? And then I think, well, 1548 01:29:58,280 --> 01:29:59,840 Speaker 1: what do you Why are you so upset? And that's 1549 01:29:59,840 --> 01:30:03,639 Speaker 1: the reason why, because it's like this thing is important 1550 01:30:03,680 --> 01:30:06,519 Speaker 1: to me, it's reverent to me, and it's made me 1551 01:30:06,520 --> 01:30:09,719 Speaker 1: a little bit of a dick about my back scraps. 1552 01:30:09,760 --> 01:30:11,680 Speaker 1: And Imi even I had that conversation like She's like, 1553 01:30:11,720 --> 01:30:14,120 Speaker 1: what is wrong with you. I said, well, look, man, 1554 01:30:14,200 --> 01:30:16,840 Speaker 1: I can't go. I can't go and get this again. 1555 01:30:17,400 --> 01:30:19,680 Speaker 1: It's gonna be six or eight months before I even 1556 01:30:19,720 --> 01:30:22,800 Speaker 1: have the opportunity, and that even then it's not guaranteed. 1557 01:30:23,880 --> 01:30:26,080 Speaker 1: And uh, I think she understands it a little bit 1558 01:30:26,120 --> 01:30:28,560 Speaker 1: more now. She loves the cook game. She loves the 1559 01:30:28,560 --> 01:30:30,960 Speaker 1: cook game. She doesn't hunt, she doesn't have the same 1560 01:30:31,040 --> 01:30:33,200 Speaker 1: She loves it for the flavor and for the experience 1561 01:30:33,240 --> 01:30:35,640 Speaker 1: of knowing me and knowing how it died. But she 1562 01:30:35,680 --> 01:30:38,000 Speaker 1: doesn't have the same reverence I have for because she 1563 01:30:38,040 --> 01:30:40,800 Speaker 1: doesn't never experience the hardship of going to get it. 1564 01:30:44,080 --> 01:30:47,040 Speaker 1: And I think it's that it's that reverence and that 1565 01:30:47,040 --> 01:30:50,840 Speaker 1: that deep connection you have the animal that that I 1566 01:30:50,920 --> 01:30:55,000 Speaker 1: see in scientists and stewards and people you know across 1567 01:30:55,040 --> 01:30:58,120 Speaker 1: the board who identify with the natural world. You know, 1568 01:30:58,200 --> 01:31:00,479 Speaker 1: one of the earliest things that inspire me as a 1569 01:31:00,479 --> 01:31:05,240 Speaker 1: young person was fishing with my grandmother, you know, avid fisher, 1570 01:31:05,280 --> 01:31:10,840 Speaker 1: woman Burder, really amazing lady. And this is in San 1571 01:31:10,880 --> 01:31:13,960 Speaker 1: Francisco Bay where there's a lot of leopard sharks, and 1572 01:31:13,960 --> 01:31:16,519 Speaker 1: we're out fishing on this pier and this guy is 1573 01:31:16,920 --> 01:31:20,120 Speaker 1: catching leopard sharks and cutting their fins off and throwing 1574 01:31:20,120 --> 01:31:23,680 Speaker 1: them back in the water. And my grandmother, who is 1575 01:31:23,680 --> 01:31:26,200 Speaker 1: probably fifty five or sixty at the time, he kept 1576 01:31:26,240 --> 01:31:28,240 Speaker 1: this guy catches a leopard shark, probably a four ft 1577 01:31:28,280 --> 01:31:31,200 Speaker 1: leoperd shark, and my grandmother walks over. The guy gets 1578 01:31:31,200 --> 01:31:32,920 Speaker 1: in his face, grabs a shark out of his hands, 1579 01:31:32,960 --> 01:31:35,040 Speaker 1: throw it, throws it back in the water, and starts 1580 01:31:35,040 --> 01:31:39,400 Speaker 1: giving him an earful on respecting, you know, these animals 1581 01:31:39,400 --> 01:31:43,360 Speaker 1: and respecting wildlife. And my brother and I were really little, 1582 01:31:43,360 --> 01:31:46,920 Speaker 1: and I'll never forget seeing her do that. And I 1583 01:31:46,960 --> 01:31:51,960 Speaker 1: think it's that it's that realization that if we don't 1584 01:31:52,000 --> 01:31:54,160 Speaker 1: speak up for these animals in these places and think 1585 01:31:54,160 --> 01:31:57,559 Speaker 1: about that backstrap and that force that supported that elk 1586 01:31:57,720 --> 01:32:03,720 Speaker 1: as as our obligation to speak on their behalf, then 1587 01:32:04,920 --> 01:32:08,040 Speaker 1: by default they'll just slip away because these places don't 1588 01:32:08,080 --> 01:32:10,680 Speaker 1: have voices. Animals don't have voices of their own, so 1589 01:32:10,720 --> 01:32:14,200 Speaker 1: they need people like us to be out there making 1590 01:32:14,240 --> 01:32:17,880 Speaker 1: sure that they don't, you know, slip away. You know, 1591 01:32:17,960 --> 01:32:20,160 Speaker 1: I want my kids to hunt where I grew up hunting, 1592 01:32:20,200 --> 01:32:22,519 Speaker 1: and I know that if something was going to threaten 1593 01:32:22,720 --> 01:32:26,080 Speaker 1: that place, I would, you know, i'd be there, and 1594 01:32:26,120 --> 01:32:28,000 Speaker 1: I'm sure a lot of people feel the same way. 1595 01:32:28,160 --> 01:32:32,360 Speaker 1: Two hunters agreeing on animal rights? What the hell kind 1596 01:32:32,400 --> 01:32:37,720 Speaker 1: of podcast? What are we talking that that? As you're 1597 01:32:37,720 --> 01:32:39,639 Speaker 1: talking there, I was just thinking about that too, as 1598 01:32:39,680 --> 01:32:43,559 Speaker 1: I getting these conversations. Then you try to shape them 1599 01:32:43,600 --> 01:32:46,640 Speaker 1: in a way, but they go how they go. UM, 1600 01:32:46,680 --> 01:32:49,599 Speaker 1: And I've had more conversations doing this podcast about animal 1601 01:32:49,720 --> 01:32:53,880 Speaker 1: rights on a hunting podcast, then I can can think 1602 01:32:53,920 --> 01:32:58,400 Speaker 1: I maybe have ever had UM in any any conversation 1603 01:32:58,439 --> 01:33:00,640 Speaker 1: or any community I've had. So that's one of the 1604 01:33:00,640 --> 01:33:03,320 Speaker 1: cool things about this UM and about what you're doing, 1605 01:33:03,479 --> 01:33:07,840 Speaker 1: is that it's bringing to light that maybe animal rights 1606 01:33:07,840 --> 01:33:11,080 Speaker 1: activists and hunters are aren't all that different, or maybe 1607 01:33:11,080 --> 01:33:14,280 Speaker 1: that at some level of damn same thing. UM and 1608 01:33:14,320 --> 01:33:19,120 Speaker 1: a lot of people. So it's beautiful man. Yeah, and 1609 01:33:19,160 --> 01:33:21,439 Speaker 1: I totally agree with you, And I think you know 1610 01:33:21,479 --> 01:33:24,479 Speaker 1: one of the things that I love about the hunting 1611 01:33:24,560 --> 01:33:28,719 Speaker 1: industry is that by default people are are are stoked 1612 01:33:28,760 --> 01:33:31,640 Speaker 1: on wildlife, which is something that I miss in the 1613 01:33:31,680 --> 01:33:35,519 Speaker 1: outdoor recreation space because just because you're in that space 1614 01:33:35,520 --> 01:33:38,679 Speaker 1: doesn't mean you love animals. So I feel I feel 1615 01:33:38,680 --> 01:33:42,680 Speaker 1: like I'm yeah, I feel like I'm meeting a lot 1616 01:33:42,720 --> 01:33:47,160 Speaker 1: of people, especially in Bozeman, that are you know, uh, 1617 01:33:47,280 --> 01:33:49,360 Speaker 1: they're just like wildlife nerds that go about it in 1618 01:33:49,400 --> 01:33:51,920 Speaker 1: different ways. And I love that and I and it, 1619 01:33:53,439 --> 01:33:55,759 Speaker 1: you know, I think it. It brings up this point 1620 01:33:55,800 --> 01:33:57,400 Speaker 1: that I try to share with people, which is that 1621 01:33:58,600 --> 01:34:01,080 Speaker 1: you can see a picture of a a person holding 1622 01:34:01,400 --> 01:34:05,200 Speaker 1: a steelhead trout, a wild steelhead. I would argue that 1623 01:34:05,240 --> 01:34:09,960 Speaker 1: has more of an impact on the ecosystem than killing 1624 01:34:09,960 --> 01:34:12,400 Speaker 1: a white tailed deer. But we just have this affinity, 1625 01:34:12,560 --> 01:34:15,599 Speaker 1: this connection with the ant the eyes of deer, and 1626 01:34:16,040 --> 01:34:19,599 Speaker 1: society treats them one way. But a steelhead trout, which 1627 01:34:19,680 --> 01:34:23,720 Speaker 1: might come from an imperiled population that's in decline, that 1628 01:34:23,880 --> 01:34:26,519 Speaker 1: has trying so hard to just live, and you drag 1629 01:34:26,560 --> 01:34:29,479 Speaker 1: it out of the water, it gives up, which which 1630 01:34:29,479 --> 01:34:31,600 Speaker 1: means it's almost dying. And if you look at the 1631 01:34:31,640 --> 01:34:35,519 Speaker 1: physiology of catching and release, there is an impact, whether 1632 01:34:35,560 --> 01:34:38,160 Speaker 1: you'd like to believe it or not. UM, talk to 1633 01:34:38,320 --> 01:34:42,120 Speaker 1: any fish biologist about the effects of catching release on lipids. 1634 01:34:42,280 --> 01:34:45,599 Speaker 1: You know, I practice catching and release a lot. You know, 1635 01:34:45,720 --> 01:34:49,400 Speaker 1: nobody's perfect, but there's impact there. UM. And it's all 1636 01:34:49,439 --> 01:34:52,240 Speaker 1: about just you know, realizing we're in it for the 1637 01:34:52,280 --> 01:34:55,439 Speaker 1: same reasons fishermen fish. They care about waterways, they care 1638 01:34:55,479 --> 01:34:58,760 Speaker 1: about fish, they care about those ecosystems we hunt. We 1639 01:34:58,800 --> 01:35:02,080 Speaker 1: care about these animals and these ecosystems, and people who 1640 01:35:02,200 --> 01:35:05,400 Speaker 1: hike care about the same thing too. And and I 1641 01:35:05,439 --> 01:35:08,080 Speaker 1: appreciate you, and I appreciate this podcast, and I appreciate 1642 01:35:09,200 --> 01:35:13,120 Speaker 1: you know what you're excited to talk about because it's 1643 01:35:13,200 --> 01:35:16,559 Speaker 1: an indication that there's there's so much common ground, and 1644 01:35:16,560 --> 01:35:19,200 Speaker 1: there's so much room for progress, and there's so much 1645 01:35:20,280 --> 01:35:23,880 Speaker 1: a collaborative energy out there that I think it's just 1646 01:35:23,880 --> 01:35:27,640 Speaker 1: waiting to be tapped into. Yeah, I agree, And b 1647 01:35:27,840 --> 01:35:30,840 Speaker 1: I have a very, um, I don't know how to 1648 01:35:30,880 --> 01:35:33,960 Speaker 1: say it, a very combative relationship with catching release. So 1649 01:35:34,040 --> 01:35:36,719 Speaker 1: you're now for bringing that up. You're not my favorite 1650 01:35:36,720 --> 01:35:41,320 Speaker 1: guest because I live in a world where the grip 1651 01:35:41,360 --> 01:35:44,479 Speaker 1: and grim photo is like this negative thing. But the 1652 01:35:44,520 --> 01:35:49,080 Speaker 1: grip and the catching grip photo or the whatever the 1653 01:35:49,120 --> 01:35:51,400 Speaker 1: fishing catching release fishing folks do, is this like the 1654 01:35:51,439 --> 01:35:55,280 Speaker 1: celebrated thing that's okay? And I have not yet been 1655 01:35:55,320 --> 01:35:58,400 Speaker 1: able to figure out how one can wrap their mind 1656 01:35:58,439 --> 01:36:02,879 Speaker 1: around catching release fishing being a okay and hunting being negative, 1657 01:36:03,040 --> 01:36:06,200 Speaker 1: but um, I think that's probably a whole another podcast, 1658 01:36:06,280 --> 01:36:08,840 Speaker 1: and we're about we're about at a time, and I 1659 01:36:08,880 --> 01:36:10,439 Speaker 1: don't want to. I don't want to get in trouble 1660 01:36:10,439 --> 01:36:12,800 Speaker 1: with any of my fishing buddies because I do love it, 1661 01:36:15,320 --> 01:36:17,840 Speaker 1: and I'm glad to come and grab a fly rod 1662 01:36:17,880 --> 01:36:21,639 Speaker 1: and come to Montana and do it. But I gotta 1663 01:36:21,920 --> 01:36:23,559 Speaker 1: I got a few problems with you people, and will 1664 01:36:23,560 --> 01:36:27,559 Speaker 1: cover that next time. Yeah, I agree. I think that's 1665 01:36:27,560 --> 01:36:31,120 Speaker 1: a that's a whole another whole another conversation. But yeah, 1666 01:36:31,120 --> 01:36:34,720 Speaker 1: I appreciate all the all the good questions, and um yeah, 1667 01:36:34,720 --> 01:36:36,960 Speaker 1: maybe we can sit down and continue some of them 1668 01:36:37,000 --> 01:36:40,519 Speaker 1: down the road and go for a fish ourselves. Absolutely, man, 1669 01:36:40,560 --> 01:36:42,280 Speaker 1: I'm all down for that. I hope to see you 1670 01:36:42,320 --> 01:36:44,800 Speaker 1: before too long in Bozeman as soon as he gets 1671 01:36:44,840 --> 01:36:47,719 Speaker 1: hot down here in Texas. I'm going north for for something, 1672 01:36:47,760 --> 01:36:50,320 Speaker 1: probably fishing, So we'll get together and have that conversation 1673 01:36:50,360 --> 01:36:53,519 Speaker 1: while we're trying to catch tra out. Sounds good, Bring 1674 01:36:53,600 --> 01:36:58,720 Speaker 1: a bring some headphones and a recorder. Yeah, professional, That's 1675 01:36:58,880 --> 01:37:02,719 Speaker 1: that's how I'm gonna title this Wildlife Nerd Charles post, 1676 01:37:02,800 --> 01:37:09,200 Speaker 1: Thanks man, Happy. That sounds that sounds perfect. Okay, that's 1677 01:37:09,240 --> 01:37:14,120 Speaker 1: it Episode number seven in the books. Thank you to 1678 01:37:14,200 --> 01:37:19,720 Speaker 1: Charles post great conversation. I think, among other things I 1679 01:37:19,800 --> 01:37:25,519 Speaker 1: learned from Charles, just we can't stereotype people we see 1680 01:37:25,520 --> 01:37:27,760 Speaker 1: on the street. We can't stereotype people we see in 1681 01:37:27,760 --> 01:37:30,280 Speaker 1: a hunting camp. They're starting to be people like Charles 1682 01:37:30,400 --> 01:37:32,679 Speaker 1: who don't look the part, or don't have the history 1683 01:37:32,680 --> 01:37:35,639 Speaker 1: of the part, who are in our world and their 1684 01:37:35,760 --> 01:37:40,560 Speaker 1: voices are important, and I think Charles might be the 1685 01:37:40,600 --> 01:37:44,720 Speaker 1: best example of that right now. He's got unique perspectives 1686 01:37:44,720 --> 01:37:48,400 Speaker 1: both in science and cohabitation in the natural world, in 1687 01:37:48,439 --> 01:37:52,000 Speaker 1: ecology and biology, and has been trained by some people 1688 01:37:52,960 --> 01:37:55,360 Speaker 1: who have never hunted themselves, So I think that gives 1689 01:37:55,479 --> 01:37:59,160 Speaker 1: me a unique perspective on what we do. And the 1690 01:38:01,080 --> 01:38:04,760 Speaker 1: uniqueness of his respective is really where it's valuable. I'm 1691 01:38:04,760 --> 01:38:07,439 Speaker 1: not sure if uniqueness is a word or not, but 1692 01:38:07,600 --> 01:38:11,639 Speaker 1: that's what he is. So thanks for tuning in. Episode 1693 01:38:11,680 --> 01:38:15,400 Speaker 1: number seven is done. I'm done four now We're gonna 1694 01:38:15,400 --> 01:38:18,439 Speaker 1: see you next week with another great guest. Until then, 1695 01:38:19,160 --> 01:38:23,280 Speaker 1: go to the Hunting Collective dot com for articles, videos, 1696 01:38:23,880 --> 01:38:26,519 Speaker 1: a bunch of other stuff. The other six episodes we've 1697 01:38:26,560 --> 01:38:30,799 Speaker 1: done before This featuring Steve Ronella, Ryan Callahan, John Dudley, 1698 01:38:31,200 --> 01:38:38,400 Speaker 1: Shane Mahoney, Aubrey Marcus, and more. Check us out on iTunes, 1699 01:38:38,439 --> 01:38:41,080 Speaker 1: give us a review, please subscribe to tell your friends 1700 01:38:41,080 --> 01:38:45,120 Speaker 1: to do the same. We're also on Stitcher who We're 1701 01:38:45,160 --> 01:38:48,479 Speaker 1: working on some other platforms. So until the next time, 1702 01:38:49,479 --> 01:39:03,479 Speaker 1: thanks for joining us. We'll talk soon, mister wo