1 00:00:00,800 --> 00:00:02,920 Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, we want to let you know that we 2 00:00:02,960 --> 00:00:07,280 Speaker 1: are doing our traditional Pacific Northwest Swing for our live 3 00:00:07,360 --> 00:00:11,320 Speaker 1: show next year, in fact, the end of January next year, 4 00:00:11,480 --> 00:00:12,760 Speaker 1: very early next year, and. 5 00:00:12,720 --> 00:00:16,239 Speaker 2: We're starting out in Seattle, Washington on January twenty fourth 6 00:00:16,239 --> 00:00:19,520 Speaker 2: at the Paramount Theater. It's huge, that's right, and then 7 00:00:19,560 --> 00:00:23,040 Speaker 2: on to Portland on January twenty fifth at Revolution Hall, 8 00:00:23,239 --> 00:00:25,360 Speaker 2: the place we always are. It's kind of our home 9 00:00:25,400 --> 00:00:28,160 Speaker 2: away from home in Portland. And then we're gonna wrap 10 00:00:28,200 --> 00:00:30,840 Speaker 2: it all up at the thing that started the Pacific 11 00:00:30,880 --> 00:00:33,760 Speaker 2: Northwest Tour in the first place all those years back. 12 00:00:34,200 --> 00:00:37,240 Speaker 2: SF Sketch Fest will be at the Sydney Goldstein Theater 13 00:00:37,520 --> 00:00:39,680 Speaker 2: on Friday, January twenty sixth, right. 14 00:00:39,600 --> 00:00:41,840 Speaker 1: Chuck, that's right, And remember you can go to stuff 15 00:00:41,840 --> 00:00:44,839 Speaker 1: youshould Know dot com click on tours in order to 16 00:00:44,840 --> 00:00:47,199 Speaker 1: get to the correct ticket link or go to the 17 00:00:47,320 --> 00:00:50,159 Speaker 1: venue page only. Do not go to scalper sites. 18 00:00:50,360 --> 00:00:52,520 Speaker 2: That's right, and we'll see you guys in January. 19 00:00:52,680 --> 00:01:00,360 Speaker 1: Okay, welcome to Stuff you Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio. 20 00:01:04,920 --> 00:01:07,679 Speaker 2: Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, there's Chuck. 21 00:01:07,959 --> 00:01:10,360 Speaker 2: Jerry's here too, and this is stuff you should know. 22 00:01:12,000 --> 00:01:17,600 Speaker 1: I believe a is an order. Why because we're debuting 23 00:01:18,160 --> 00:01:19,520 Speaker 1: a brand new writer. 24 00:01:20,440 --> 00:01:23,560 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, great idea, Chuck, thank you for doing that. 25 00:01:24,280 --> 00:01:27,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, welcome aboard Alison Miller. Alison came to us. This 26 00:01:27,800 --> 00:01:29,560 Speaker 1: is by way of Livia, right, is a recommendation. 27 00:01:29,800 --> 00:01:32,480 Speaker 2: Yep, we said, Lvia, you're great, you know and the 28 00:01:32,560 --> 00:01:34,880 Speaker 2: other great writer. She said, actually I got one I 29 00:01:34,920 --> 00:01:36,479 Speaker 2: can recommend, And here we are. 30 00:01:37,120 --> 00:01:40,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, and Alison Miller did a how it works here 31 00:01:40,760 --> 00:01:42,560 Speaker 1: is we do like sort of a test article, and 32 00:01:42,600 --> 00:01:46,039 Speaker 1: this is that test article. So it obviously worked. And 33 00:01:46,240 --> 00:01:49,520 Speaker 1: Allison is a historian and researcher and just did a 34 00:01:49,520 --> 00:01:52,280 Speaker 1: fantastic job. So welcome, Welcome to the fam. Allison. 35 00:01:52,400 --> 00:01:55,520 Speaker 2: Welcome Alison here. I'll coordinate you too. Do do do do? 36 00:01:56,600 --> 00:01:57,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, you do it better than me. So I was 37 00:01:57,960 --> 00:01:58,680 Speaker 1: hoping you a chime in. 38 00:01:58,880 --> 00:02:02,240 Speaker 2: I just put some enthusiasm, and I think that's the difference, 39 00:02:02,680 --> 00:02:06,360 Speaker 2: that's right. So yeah, we're talking about the OED today, 40 00:02:06,400 --> 00:02:09,520 Speaker 2: the Oxford English Dictionary, and I have to say, Alison, 41 00:02:09,720 --> 00:02:12,079 Speaker 2: knock this one out of the park. I get the 42 00:02:12,120 --> 00:02:14,840 Speaker 2: impression that she may or may not have read significant 43 00:02:14,880 --> 00:02:16,840 Speaker 2: portions of the OED in her lifetime. 44 00:02:17,160 --> 00:02:18,320 Speaker 1: I think Alison is smart. 45 00:02:18,600 --> 00:02:21,520 Speaker 2: So and she kind of starts off by talking about 46 00:02:21,520 --> 00:02:25,520 Speaker 2: different kinds of dictionaries, which is significant because the OED 47 00:02:25,680 --> 00:02:30,119 Speaker 2: the Oxford English Dictionary is a specific kind of dictionary. 48 00:02:30,360 --> 00:02:35,000 Speaker 2: It's not a regular, average joe, you know, work at 49 00:02:35,000 --> 00:02:40,200 Speaker 2: a dictionary like some other dictionaries. The Oxford English Dictionary 50 00:02:40,400 --> 00:02:45,080 Speaker 2: is a historical dictionary, so it not only tells you 51 00:02:45,160 --> 00:02:49,120 Speaker 2: the definition of the word, there may even be multiple definitions. 52 00:02:49,120 --> 00:02:50,480 Speaker 2: By the way, I don't know if you've ever looked 53 00:02:50,480 --> 00:02:53,120 Speaker 2: at a dictionary before, but sometimes one word can have 54 00:02:53,160 --> 00:02:57,760 Speaker 2: more than one definition. It's nuts, right, the OED says. 55 00:02:57,840 --> 00:03:00,520 Speaker 2: And by the way, here's where that word came from, 56 00:03:00,919 --> 00:03:05,520 Speaker 2: and here's examples of its first use to it's probably 57 00:03:05,639 --> 00:03:08,040 Speaker 2: most recent use for one of its most recent uses. 58 00:03:08,160 --> 00:03:10,920 Speaker 2: So you can see how this specific word in the 59 00:03:10,960 --> 00:03:13,240 Speaker 2: English language evolved over time. 60 00:03:13,919 --> 00:03:15,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, I didn't know that. 61 00:03:15,440 --> 00:03:18,440 Speaker 2: It's it's pretty ambitious, it is. 62 00:03:18,560 --> 00:03:21,880 Speaker 1: And historical dictionaries they don't they don't say like, well 63 00:03:21,960 --> 00:03:24,880 Speaker 1: that that meaning is not something that people use it 64 00:03:24,880 --> 00:03:28,920 Speaker 1: for anymore, like macaroni. Whatever the heck they meant in 65 00:03:28,919 --> 00:03:29,680 Speaker 1: that song. 66 00:03:30,400 --> 00:03:33,960 Speaker 2: The Yankee Doodles, They any one, Yeah, I took that 67 00:03:34,040 --> 00:03:35,400 Speaker 2: as a reference to pot. 68 00:03:38,280 --> 00:03:40,440 Speaker 1: But my point is they don't say, like, let's get 69 00:03:40,520 --> 00:03:43,960 Speaker 1: rid of that old that old definition. Like the whole 70 00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:48,160 Speaker 1: idea for the OED is that the English language is alive, 71 00:03:49,080 --> 00:03:53,160 Speaker 1: and so the OED is alive, and we're gonna we're 72 00:03:53,160 --> 00:03:56,840 Speaker 1: gonna leave it in there and go forward in time. 73 00:03:56,960 --> 00:03:58,800 Speaker 1: But if you if you want to look up these 74 00:03:58,840 --> 00:04:02,480 Speaker 1: old usages and these old meanings, it's all right there 75 00:04:02,960 --> 00:04:07,480 Speaker 1: for you in this massive, massive dictionary that whose aim 76 00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:10,960 Speaker 1: was to include every word in the English language and 77 00:04:11,040 --> 00:04:14,160 Speaker 1: every usage of that word up until. 78 00:04:13,880 --> 00:04:16,240 Speaker 2: Now, starting in eleven fifty c. 79 00:04:17,440 --> 00:04:19,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, as far as the words go. They didn't start 80 00:04:19,480 --> 00:04:21,719 Speaker 1: the dictionary then, but they went back to Middle English 81 00:04:22,320 --> 00:04:25,560 Speaker 1: to get what we now have is a third edition, 82 00:04:26,560 --> 00:04:29,640 Speaker 1: more than six hundred thousand entries, of which we have 83 00:04:29,760 --> 00:04:33,800 Speaker 1: eight hundred and fifty thousand definitions. See three million of 84 00:04:33,800 --> 00:04:39,480 Speaker 1: those quotations, which is amazing. And although I think we're 85 00:04:39,520 --> 00:04:43,279 Speaker 1: locked in with the beginning in the end because the 86 00:04:43,320 --> 00:04:46,039 Speaker 1: first word is a, there's no way you can get 87 00:04:46,080 --> 00:04:51,120 Speaker 1: before that in line no, and the last word is ziziva, 88 00:04:51,880 --> 00:04:54,799 Speaker 1: and there's no way that someone could create a word 89 00:04:55,720 --> 00:05:00,560 Speaker 1: that is after z y zz y va. It would 90 00:05:00,600 --> 00:05:02,400 Speaker 1: have to be zz zz. 91 00:05:02,600 --> 00:05:06,840 Speaker 2: Yeah z or zz top. I'm surprised they didn't mention 92 00:05:07,000 --> 00:05:07,640 Speaker 2: zz top. 93 00:05:08,320 --> 00:05:11,680 Speaker 1: Yeah. Don't talk to me about cartoons sleep bubbles. So 94 00:05:11,720 --> 00:05:14,599 Speaker 1: I think we're locked in it as Actually, Allison has 95 00:05:14,640 --> 00:05:18,320 Speaker 1: a great title for this, the OED. Cohen A to Zizia, 96 00:05:18,520 --> 00:05:20,600 Speaker 1: I'm sorry, Ziza already messed it up. 97 00:05:21,040 --> 00:05:24,440 Speaker 2: Well, it's a tough word, zyzzyv a. It's fun to 98 00:05:24,480 --> 00:05:26,480 Speaker 2: spell out loud because you say it like that with 99 00:05:26,560 --> 00:05:30,240 Speaker 2: some oomph, but it's a tough word to say. Did 100 00:05:30,240 --> 00:05:30,880 Speaker 2: you define it? 101 00:05:32,000 --> 00:05:32,279 Speaker 3: Uh? 102 00:05:32,320 --> 00:05:32,960 Speaker 1: No, go ahead. 103 00:05:33,000 --> 00:05:38,359 Speaker 2: It's a weavil yeah, and it always was right. So 104 00:05:38,520 --> 00:05:41,039 Speaker 2: one thing about the OED You might say, well, like wow, 105 00:05:41,120 --> 00:05:46,200 Speaker 2: that's a lot of information packed into one tome. You'd 106 00:05:46,200 --> 00:05:49,400 Speaker 2: be right. If you don't know much about the Oxford 107 00:05:49,440 --> 00:05:51,920 Speaker 2: English Dictionary, you may at least have the idea that 108 00:05:51,960 --> 00:05:55,320 Speaker 2: it's enormous, that it's way bigger than your average dictionary, 109 00:05:55,600 --> 00:05:58,440 Speaker 2: because those six hundred thousand entries with eight hundred and 110 00:05:58,480 --> 00:06:01,760 Speaker 2: fifty thousand definitions and three million quotations, when you put 111 00:06:01,760 --> 00:06:03,920 Speaker 2: them all together, it takes up a lot of space. 112 00:06:04,440 --> 00:06:07,120 Speaker 2: In fact, I by my estimate, it takes up something 113 00:06:07,200 --> 00:06:09,600 Speaker 2: like an eighth of the entire Internet. 114 00:06:10,200 --> 00:06:16,400 Speaker 1: Right, should we read some of this these fast stats? 115 00:06:17,200 --> 00:06:18,440 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, let's do that. 116 00:06:19,240 --> 00:06:23,400 Speaker 1: So I believe this is the first volume. 117 00:06:23,160 --> 00:06:25,480 Speaker 2: The first Yeah, the whole first edition, I think. 118 00:06:25,600 --> 00:06:27,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, the whole first edition. So this isn't even the 119 00:06:27,800 --> 00:06:30,400 Speaker 1: current edition. This is the one that was finished up 120 00:06:30,440 --> 00:06:34,200 Speaker 1: in nineteen twenty eight. At the time it had four 121 00:06:34,279 --> 00:06:37,520 Speaker 1: hundred and fifteen thousand words, half a million definitions, one 122 00:06:37,520 --> 00:06:40,560 Speaker 1: point eight million quotations. But this is the part I 123 00:06:40,560 --> 00:06:42,839 Speaker 1: wanted to get to. One hundred and seventy eight miles 124 00:06:42,880 --> 00:06:47,080 Speaker 1: of type, fifty million words, four feet of shelf space, 125 00:06:47,880 --> 00:06:53,040 Speaker 1: and ten or twenty half volume. So you know that 126 00:06:54,400 --> 00:06:57,400 Speaker 1: Encyclopedia Britannica set you grew up with in your hallway, 127 00:06:58,120 --> 00:07:01,039 Speaker 1: that's basically what this dictionary is. First edition looked like. 128 00:07:01,400 --> 00:07:05,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, and back in nineteen thirty, nineteen twenty eight, I 129 00:07:05,120 --> 00:07:10,320 Speaker 2: guess when it came out, you paid about today's equivalent 130 00:07:10,440 --> 00:07:17,160 Speaker 2: of three three hundred and sixty pounds sterling for a dictionary. Yeah, 131 00:07:17,200 --> 00:07:21,720 Speaker 2: about four grand in US dollars today, And according to 132 00:07:22,120 --> 00:07:25,080 Speaker 2: the Bank of England, that was equal to two hundred 133 00:07:25,120 --> 00:07:28,560 Speaker 2: and twenty eight days wages for a skilled worker in 134 00:07:28,680 --> 00:07:32,600 Speaker 2: nineteen thirty, imagine spending most of your year's salary on 135 00:07:32,720 --> 00:07:33,480 Speaker 2: a dictionary. 136 00:07:34,320 --> 00:07:36,720 Speaker 1: Yeah. I think the point has got to be that 137 00:07:37,600 --> 00:07:39,880 Speaker 1: very like you had to be a very well healed 138 00:07:39,880 --> 00:07:42,880 Speaker 1: person trying to impress other people by owning a copy 139 00:07:42,920 --> 00:07:43,440 Speaker 1: of this thing. 140 00:07:43,320 --> 00:07:48,360 Speaker 2: Back then, right, yeah, or a library, well exactly. So, yeah, 141 00:07:48,760 --> 00:07:51,440 Speaker 2: that was the first edition. It's gotten even bigger as 142 00:07:51,480 --> 00:07:54,640 Speaker 2: we've seen over time, and so now finally the Internet 143 00:07:54,720 --> 00:07:57,240 Speaker 2: was born. I think to howse the third edition of 144 00:07:57,280 --> 00:07:59,840 Speaker 2: the Oxford English Dictionary, which is where we're at now, 145 00:08:00,360 --> 00:08:04,320 Speaker 2: and one thing that they do, which is pretty sharp. 146 00:08:04,600 --> 00:08:08,000 Speaker 2: As the dictionary comes out, new words are being added 147 00:08:08,000 --> 00:08:10,880 Speaker 2: to it all the time. They're probably finding less and 148 00:08:10,960 --> 00:08:13,560 Speaker 2: less old words that they hadn't included. But you know, 149 00:08:13,640 --> 00:08:17,000 Speaker 2: like you said, the English language is living, so it's 150 00:08:17,680 --> 00:08:21,720 Speaker 2: expanding and contracting and adding new words to it all 151 00:08:21,760 --> 00:08:24,040 Speaker 2: the time. So by the time those things go to 152 00:08:24,040 --> 00:08:27,000 Speaker 2: press and that last volume of the edition comes out, 153 00:08:27,320 --> 00:08:29,960 Speaker 2: there's words that are left over that are just constantly 154 00:08:30,000 --> 00:08:33,080 Speaker 2: being added. So I think on a quarterly basis, they 155 00:08:33,120 --> 00:08:39,160 Speaker 2: release supplements essentially that have new words that came out 156 00:08:39,280 --> 00:08:43,000 Speaker 2: or were coined since the volume that contained that letter 157 00:08:43,120 --> 00:08:44,960 Speaker 2: was published in the latest edition. 158 00:08:45,920 --> 00:08:49,040 Speaker 1: That's right, and we'll get to how those supplements figured 159 00:08:49,040 --> 00:08:50,840 Speaker 1: in back then and what they do with those today. 160 00:08:51,480 --> 00:08:54,960 Speaker 1: But the other really unique thing about the OED is 161 00:08:55,000 --> 00:08:57,640 Speaker 1: that it is a and always has been, from the 162 00:08:57,720 --> 00:09:02,520 Speaker 1: very very beginning, a crowd source work. Yeah, right from 163 00:09:02,559 --> 00:09:05,040 Speaker 1: the beginning. The editors who we're going to talk about, 164 00:09:05,040 --> 00:09:08,840 Speaker 1: the original editors, editors here in a minute. They said, hey, public, 165 00:09:09,360 --> 00:09:13,280 Speaker 1: we need help. So if you're into this, you've got 166 00:09:13,280 --> 00:09:15,040 Speaker 1: a little time. If you like to read, if you're 167 00:09:15,040 --> 00:09:17,480 Speaker 1: a linguist, you're into words, if you love language, go 168 00:09:17,559 --> 00:09:22,280 Speaker 1: back to Chaucer, start reading and find these words that 169 00:09:22,320 --> 00:09:26,120 Speaker 1: we're looking for. Find usages of these words descend into 170 00:09:26,280 --> 00:09:30,320 Speaker 1: us by hand on they call it a slip, a 171 00:09:30,320 --> 00:09:33,520 Speaker 1: little four by six sheet of paper and mail it 172 00:09:33,559 --> 00:09:37,400 Speaker 1: into us. And you could very well have a hand 173 00:09:37,559 --> 00:09:39,520 Speaker 1: in creating the Oxford English Dictionary. 174 00:09:39,760 --> 00:09:42,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, pretty cool. And they got a really great response 175 00:09:42,920 --> 00:09:44,240 Speaker 2: to it, and I think still do. 176 00:09:44,320 --> 00:09:48,000 Speaker 1: Today, oh for sure. But that's also explains why you have, 177 00:09:48,720 --> 00:09:52,719 Speaker 1: you know, quotes from Chaucer and Shakespeare, and also, as 178 00:09:52,720 --> 00:09:56,280 Speaker 1: Alison points out, quotes from like a social media post. 179 00:09:57,200 --> 00:09:59,400 Speaker 1: As a usage example of a word. 180 00:09:59,640 --> 00:10:02,320 Speaker 2: Yeah. She also used an example that came from the 181 00:10:02,320 --> 00:10:06,319 Speaker 2: most recent quarterly update from September twenty twenty three. Porch 182 00:10:06,360 --> 00:10:09,120 Speaker 2: pirate appears in there, and so it's a really good 183 00:10:09,120 --> 00:10:13,520 Speaker 2: illustration of what the OED does. They explain that it's 184 00:10:13,679 --> 00:10:17,679 Speaker 2: someone who steals packages from doorsteps. Everybody knows that. Yeah, 185 00:10:17,679 --> 00:10:21,400 Speaker 2: but did you know that it first came about from 186 00:10:21,400 --> 00:10:25,240 Speaker 2: a news segment on kfo R from Oklahoma Cities, one 187 00:10:25,280 --> 00:10:28,440 Speaker 2: of their local broadcasting stations. 188 00:10:28,520 --> 00:10:30,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, so they'll have that. 189 00:10:30,160 --> 00:10:31,280 Speaker 2: Wait, you didn't doubt. 190 00:10:31,080 --> 00:10:33,280 Speaker 1: It, No, well no, I said they would have that. 191 00:10:33,320 --> 00:10:37,319 Speaker 1: I gotcha as like the example or whatever. And then 192 00:10:37,360 --> 00:10:39,280 Speaker 1: if you want to dig deeper and just say, well, 193 00:10:39,320 --> 00:10:42,079 Speaker 1: what about this word porch, then they'll take you back 194 00:10:42,120 --> 00:10:45,760 Speaker 1: to the thirteen hundreds with the definition of porch and 195 00:10:45,800 --> 00:10:51,079 Speaker 1: then examples of these what they call senses like that's 196 00:10:51,160 --> 00:10:55,200 Speaker 1: when not a tense, it's a sense. It's like how 197 00:10:55,200 --> 00:10:56,440 Speaker 1: the word is used basically. 198 00:10:56,600 --> 00:11:00,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, and it might not be used that way anymore necessary. 199 00:11:00,840 --> 00:11:03,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, but they will have all of them listed and 200 00:11:03,080 --> 00:11:05,800 Speaker 1: you can see sort of the evolution of not only 201 00:11:05,800 --> 00:11:08,160 Speaker 1: the word porch, but when you eventually get to something 202 00:11:08,200 --> 00:11:09,000 Speaker 1: like porch pirate. 203 00:11:09,679 --> 00:11:10,000 Speaker 4: Yeah. 204 00:11:10,200 --> 00:11:13,199 Speaker 2: So it's pretty neat stuff like, that's what they do. 205 00:11:13,440 --> 00:11:16,920 Speaker 2: And they've been doing this for one hundred something years 206 00:11:17,320 --> 00:11:20,400 Speaker 2: since they think the first the first volume of the 207 00:11:20,440 --> 00:11:23,319 Speaker 2: first edition came out and I think eighteen eighty four. 208 00:11:23,640 --> 00:11:26,560 Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, and those supplements you were talking about, I 209 00:11:26,600 --> 00:11:28,559 Speaker 1: promised to kind of explain how they do things now. 210 00:11:28,679 --> 00:11:32,720 Speaker 1: They were for many many years. They were released just 211 00:11:32,960 --> 00:11:36,200 Speaker 1: like hey, here's this extra thing. But it created a 212 00:11:36,240 --> 00:11:38,560 Speaker 1: problem if you're like, well, wait a minute, now I 213 00:11:38,559 --> 00:11:40,400 Speaker 1: have to look up a word in two different places 214 00:11:40,440 --> 00:11:43,960 Speaker 1: if it has a more modern usage. And so eventually 215 00:11:44,000 --> 00:11:48,480 Speaker 1: they started combining them. I think they finally did that 216 00:11:48,559 --> 00:11:51,400 Speaker 1: in what nineteen eighty nine, where the supplements were actually 217 00:11:51,480 --> 00:11:53,640 Speaker 1: worked into the main addition. 218 00:11:53,840 --> 00:11:55,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, just the first edition. 219 00:11:56,160 --> 00:11:58,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, so they finished that in nineteen eighty nine, and 220 00:11:58,200 --> 00:12:00,600 Speaker 1: a couple years before that they had finally put it 221 00:12:00,600 --> 00:12:03,320 Speaker 1: on a CD ROM And then, like you said, it 222 00:12:03,360 --> 00:12:05,920 Speaker 1: only exists today. Well, I mean you can get copies, 223 00:12:05,960 --> 00:12:08,880 Speaker 1: but they're not releasing I don't think print editions any longer. 224 00:12:08,880 --> 00:12:11,520 Speaker 1: It's just a online subscription type thing now. 225 00:12:11,679 --> 00:12:15,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, and usually I mean it's pay right, so yeah, subscription, 226 00:12:15,120 --> 00:12:18,320 Speaker 2: so usually you can log in through your library pretty neat. 227 00:12:18,400 --> 00:12:20,560 Speaker 2: They're also in the midst of putting out a third edition, 228 00:12:20,679 --> 00:12:24,040 Speaker 2: so look for that in the next century. That's right, 229 00:12:25,280 --> 00:12:27,240 Speaker 2: I say, we take a little break, Charles, and then 230 00:12:27,280 --> 00:12:29,480 Speaker 2: we'll come back and talk about the history of the OED. 231 00:12:29,800 --> 00:12:45,719 Speaker 3: How we got here, let's do it. 232 00:12:52,480 --> 00:12:57,080 Speaker 2: So the OED is not the first English dictionary ever. 233 00:12:57,480 --> 00:12:59,840 Speaker 2: In fact, the first one ever was from sixteen oh four. 234 00:13:00,200 --> 00:13:04,160 Speaker 2: It's called a Table Alphabetical of hard usual English Words 235 00:13:04,640 --> 00:13:09,280 Speaker 2: by Robert Kaudrey, and he basically just put this together 236 00:13:09,440 --> 00:13:13,360 Speaker 2: to help people, I guess, explain themselves in English better. 237 00:13:14,080 --> 00:13:16,959 Speaker 2: He it was I think, words that were commonly used 238 00:13:17,240 --> 00:13:21,080 Speaker 2: but not necessarily commonly understood. So that was the first one. 239 00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:26,600 Speaker 2: But the I guess the OED really traces its spiritual 240 00:13:26,679 --> 00:13:30,439 Speaker 2: roots to a more recent phenomenon that the Brothers Grim 241 00:13:30,480 --> 00:13:34,880 Speaker 2: had started, which was essentially a dictionary of a language 242 00:13:35,360 --> 00:13:39,480 Speaker 2: in order to show the history of that language, ostensibly 243 00:13:39,480 --> 00:13:43,560 Speaker 2: in order to prove how great that language actually was. 244 00:13:44,520 --> 00:13:48,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, we shout out to a couple of great episodes 245 00:13:48,320 --> 00:13:51,200 Speaker 1: we did many years ago, one on the Brothers Grim 246 00:13:52,040 --> 00:13:54,000 Speaker 1: and was there one on the Just the Fairy Tales? 247 00:13:54,640 --> 00:13:57,280 Speaker 2: Yes, there, it was a two parter, right. 248 00:13:57,240 --> 00:13:59,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that was That was a good series, So 249 00:13:59,679 --> 00:14:01,720 Speaker 1: go back and listen to that. But Jacob and Wilhelm 250 00:14:01,800 --> 00:14:05,199 Speaker 1: Grimm did what you said. They were like, hey, we 251 00:14:05,240 --> 00:14:09,560 Speaker 1: want to create a German dictionary from Martin Luther on 252 00:14:10,440 --> 00:14:12,560 Speaker 1: which eventually they died before it came out, but it 253 00:14:12,640 --> 00:14:16,640 Speaker 1: was called I believe the first Fascicle, and the Fascal 254 00:14:16,720 --> 00:14:19,400 Speaker 1: is just the first part, basically like, hey, we finished 255 00:14:19,440 --> 00:14:22,600 Speaker 1: a through j or whatever. I think the first fasccal 256 00:14:22,600 --> 00:14:25,040 Speaker 1: came out when they were alive, but of the Deutsches 257 00:14:25,120 --> 00:14:32,320 Speaker 1: Vertebuch It and I believe they died in the late 258 00:14:33,240 --> 00:14:36,080 Speaker 1: eighteen fifty nine, for Wilhelm in eighteen sixty three, and 259 00:14:36,160 --> 00:14:39,560 Speaker 1: it finally came out in nineteen sixty one in full, 260 00:14:39,640 --> 00:14:43,640 Speaker 1: so they weren't even close. And she points out Alison 261 00:14:43,640 --> 00:14:46,640 Speaker 1: that Jacob died at the F's he was working on 262 00:14:46,680 --> 00:14:48,680 Speaker 1: the word fruit or di fruit. 263 00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:49,480 Speaker 2: Yeah. 264 00:14:49,720 --> 00:14:52,080 Speaker 1: I want to say it was pretty good. Oh you 265 00:14:52,120 --> 00:14:52,560 Speaker 1: want to say it. 266 00:14:52,600 --> 00:14:57,120 Speaker 2: I want to say it too. Deutsche's Vertebruk which means 267 00:14:57,160 --> 00:15:01,080 Speaker 2: literally German word book, right, yeah, it's more like buch 268 00:15:02,360 --> 00:15:04,960 Speaker 2: Deutsche's Vertebuch VerTech. 269 00:15:05,120 --> 00:15:05,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, there you go. 270 00:15:06,040 --> 00:15:08,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, I said it way better. In my head, I 271 00:15:08,400 --> 00:15:11,640 Speaker 2: think I tried too hard. So, like I was saying 272 00:15:11,680 --> 00:15:16,400 Speaker 2: behind the Grim, the whole initiative is not just like 273 00:15:17,160 --> 00:15:22,200 Speaker 2: documenting definitions for German words. They wanted to trace the 274 00:15:22,320 --> 00:15:26,320 Speaker 2: history of the German language because they suspected that far 275 00:15:26,520 --> 00:15:29,640 Speaker 2: in the distant past, all of these disparate groups of 276 00:15:29,680 --> 00:15:33,160 Speaker 2: people who are now members of separate nations were all 277 00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:37,600 Speaker 2: members of the same Germanic speaking tribe, and that this 278 00:15:37,680 --> 00:15:41,920 Speaker 2: had been like a glorious, amazing civilization that was now fractured, 279 00:15:41,960 --> 00:15:44,120 Speaker 2: and maybe if we understand it a little better, it 280 00:15:44,200 --> 00:15:47,480 Speaker 2: can come back together and dare I say, take over 281 00:15:47,520 --> 00:15:48,000 Speaker 2: the world. 282 00:15:48,760 --> 00:15:52,400 Speaker 1: It's like easy, brothers Grim. Yeah, they had a good idea. 283 00:15:52,600 --> 00:15:54,840 Speaker 2: It got a little perverted along the way, although it 284 00:15:54,840 --> 00:15:56,760 Speaker 2: may have been a bad idea from the beginning, you know. 285 00:15:57,600 --> 00:15:59,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, this this does link up very oddly with that 286 00:16:00,520 --> 00:16:03,520 Speaker 1: episode that we just recorded on Tectonic Plates. 287 00:16:03,600 --> 00:16:03,920 Speaker 3: It does. 288 00:16:03,960 --> 00:16:06,280 Speaker 2: I think the lesson here is anytime you have a 289 00:16:06,720 --> 00:16:10,920 Speaker 2: social or cultural movement, to go back and find how 290 00:16:11,120 --> 00:16:16,720 Speaker 2: great your specific culture is or was. That's a red 291 00:16:16,720 --> 00:16:17,920 Speaker 2: flag for everybody else. 292 00:16:18,680 --> 00:16:22,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, probably so so the OED it was basically the 293 00:16:22,520 --> 00:16:25,120 Speaker 1: same thing, and they're like, well, you've got your German book, 294 00:16:25,200 --> 00:16:28,760 Speaker 1: but what's greater than the English language. Let's do that 295 00:16:28,800 --> 00:16:29,479 Speaker 1: for ourselves. 296 00:16:29,520 --> 00:16:31,160 Speaker 2: We're going to make an English word book. 297 00:16:32,480 --> 00:16:35,720 Speaker 1: That's what it's called. So the Gentleman scholars, and that's 298 00:16:35,720 --> 00:16:39,560 Speaker 1: in quotes from Britain got together to form the Philological 299 00:16:39,600 --> 00:16:44,320 Speaker 1: Society in London in eighteen forty two from the Greek 300 00:16:44,520 --> 00:16:49,840 Speaker 1: philos love and logos words. So philology is just the 301 00:16:49,880 --> 00:16:53,440 Speaker 1: love of words. It's really very plain and kind of wonderful. Yeah, 302 00:16:53,480 --> 00:16:56,960 Speaker 1: and it's the study of the language in the written language. 303 00:16:57,520 --> 00:17:00,400 Speaker 1: And a lot of philologists will say like Greek and 304 00:17:00,480 --> 00:17:03,800 Speaker 1: Latin or what we're concentrating in. But this, at this time, 305 00:17:03,840 --> 00:17:05,800 Speaker 1: there were people like, well, wait a minute, English seems 306 00:17:05,800 --> 00:17:08,439 Speaker 1: to really be pretty important too. I know it's not 307 00:17:08,840 --> 00:17:12,439 Speaker 1: Latin or Greek, but maybe we should look forward and 308 00:17:13,160 --> 00:17:16,480 Speaker 1: get down with this English dictionary. And they said yes. 309 00:17:16,880 --> 00:17:20,520 Speaker 1: In eighteen fifty seven, after that, that's when it was 310 00:17:20,600 --> 00:17:22,879 Speaker 1: that's when the Grims put out their first fascicle. In 311 00:17:22,960 --> 00:17:25,680 Speaker 1: fact was around the same time. They said they got 312 00:17:25,680 --> 00:17:28,320 Speaker 1: a head start on us, but I think we can 313 00:17:28,560 --> 00:17:30,800 Speaker 1: catch up and do a great job as well, And 314 00:17:30,840 --> 00:17:31,600 Speaker 1: in fact they did. 315 00:17:32,200 --> 00:17:34,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, and As a matter of fact, word got out 316 00:17:34,280 --> 00:17:36,720 Speaker 2: about this and everybody was like, hey, this is a 317 00:17:36,760 --> 00:17:40,720 Speaker 2: great project. The members of the Philological Society in England 318 00:17:40,720 --> 00:17:46,080 Speaker 2: were kind of celebrated culturally for trying to do this thing, 319 00:17:46,200 --> 00:17:49,159 Speaker 2: for documenting the English language and how great it was. 320 00:17:49,920 --> 00:17:54,159 Speaker 2: So what they decided to do first was to find 321 00:17:54,160 --> 00:17:58,160 Speaker 2: out all the words that weren't already in other dictionaries 322 00:17:58,160 --> 00:18:02,840 Speaker 2: of English or any dictionary that contained English words. Unregistered 323 00:18:02,840 --> 00:18:05,080 Speaker 2: words is what they called them, and they were going 324 00:18:05,119 --> 00:18:08,800 Speaker 2: to make a dictionary of unregistered words to basically complete everything. 325 00:18:09,440 --> 00:18:13,119 Speaker 2: And there was a guy, Richard Chenovic's Trench R. C. 326 00:18:13,320 --> 00:18:18,800 Speaker 2: Trench who gave some lectures against this idea and essentially said, 327 00:18:18,880 --> 00:18:22,400 Speaker 2: rather than patch an existing garment, let's make a brand 328 00:18:22,440 --> 00:18:26,040 Speaker 2: new garment from whole cloth, and it's going to be 329 00:18:26,040 --> 00:18:31,560 Speaker 2: the most beautiful garment anyone's ever seen. It's gonna well, yeah, 330 00:18:31,840 --> 00:18:38,159 Speaker 2: plus sequin shoulder pads, the whole shebang, and to me, 331 00:18:38,359 --> 00:18:42,760 Speaker 2: that's that's the height of amazing fashion. So he actually 332 00:18:42,800 --> 00:18:46,919 Speaker 2: convinced the Philological Society to veer a different way and 333 00:18:47,680 --> 00:18:51,040 Speaker 2: rather than just take, you know, the words that hadn't 334 00:18:51,080 --> 00:18:54,000 Speaker 2: been defined and define them and make that take on 335 00:18:54,080 --> 00:18:58,600 Speaker 2: the entire English language, going back to eleven fifty forward 336 00:18:59,160 --> 00:19:01,840 Speaker 2: and again when you're doing this, So just think about 337 00:19:01,880 --> 00:19:04,359 Speaker 2: going into the deep past and saying, Okay, we're going 338 00:19:04,440 --> 00:19:06,960 Speaker 2: to do all words from eleven fifty to eighteen fifty. 339 00:19:07,640 --> 00:19:11,119 Speaker 2: That's daunting enough. But they were also signing up for 340 00:19:11,280 --> 00:19:15,720 Speaker 2: essentially a never ending unfinished work. Yeah, because as we've seen, 341 00:19:15,760 --> 00:19:18,679 Speaker 2: every time they put in an addition, there's any number 342 00:19:18,680 --> 00:19:21,240 Speaker 2: of new words that have come along or that they 343 00:19:21,240 --> 00:19:25,720 Speaker 2: didn't they didn't have before. Like it's an ongoing, never 344 00:19:25,880 --> 00:19:29,560 Speaker 2: ending process. They'll never be done with the OED. And 345 00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:33,640 Speaker 2: I suspect that probably drives some members of the OED 346 00:19:33,800 --> 00:19:35,320 Speaker 2: staff completely mad. 347 00:19:36,920 --> 00:19:39,080 Speaker 1: Maybe. And you also have to keep in mind that 348 00:19:39,119 --> 00:19:42,640 Speaker 1: they did this without a publisher secured, and in fact 349 00:19:42,720 --> 00:19:46,040 Speaker 1: did work for about two decades without a publisher even. 350 00:19:46,160 --> 00:19:46,760 Speaker 3: Yeah. 351 00:19:46,920 --> 00:19:48,920 Speaker 1: So they were just working on what was then called 352 00:19:48,920 --> 00:19:53,720 Speaker 1: the New English Dictionary, was the I guess the working title, 353 00:19:54,480 --> 00:19:58,040 Speaker 1: and their first editor was a dude to name Herbert Coleridge. 354 00:19:58,560 --> 00:20:01,160 Speaker 1: And if you're thinking, I wonder if if he was, Yes, 355 00:20:01,280 --> 00:20:04,760 Speaker 1: he was. He was the grandson of Samuel Taylor. And 356 00:20:05,560 --> 00:20:07,920 Speaker 1: there were several predictions in here. They were all wrong 357 00:20:08,040 --> 00:20:10,320 Speaker 1: as to how big this project could be and how 358 00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:13,440 Speaker 1: long it would take. But Herbert was the first one 359 00:20:13,440 --> 00:20:15,960 Speaker 1: to be way off base and said it'll be about 360 00:20:15,960 --> 00:20:18,440 Speaker 1: seven thousand pages and we'll be done in a decade. 361 00:20:19,680 --> 00:20:23,000 Speaker 1: Not how it worked out. They started working, They started 362 00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:26,840 Speaker 1: building this thing from you from a forward, and they 363 00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:30,760 Speaker 1: made a list of books like basically the English Language 364 00:20:30,880 --> 00:20:35,560 Speaker 1: Literary Canon, and said, all right, volunteers, you all wrote in, 365 00:20:35,640 --> 00:20:39,080 Speaker 1: said you had some time, so start reading. Read these 366 00:20:39,119 --> 00:20:42,520 Speaker 1: books and look out for these words, and when you 367 00:20:42,560 --> 00:20:45,119 Speaker 1: find them, put them on a slip word for word, 368 00:20:45,359 --> 00:20:48,200 Speaker 1: send them in to us. Again, that's a four x 369 00:20:48,280 --> 00:20:50,200 Speaker 1: six inch piece of paper. It was all very sort 370 00:20:50,200 --> 00:20:55,080 Speaker 1: of regimented, and they said, please read these books. And 371 00:20:55,119 --> 00:20:58,119 Speaker 1: we like English literature because the whole point of this 372 00:20:58,200 --> 00:20:59,760 Speaker 1: is to talk about how great we were and how 373 00:20:59,800 --> 00:21:01,719 Speaker 1: great our works and language is. 374 00:21:02,200 --> 00:21:05,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, so are That's why they first were like, we're 375 00:21:05,840 --> 00:21:08,800 Speaker 2: going to look through the great works of English language 376 00:21:08,800 --> 00:21:12,600 Speaker 2: only because this is the highest use of these words. 377 00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:15,440 Speaker 2: So these are the best examples. These are the quotations 378 00:21:15,440 --> 00:21:18,040 Speaker 2: we want to use. And they were very narrow minded 379 00:21:18,080 --> 00:21:21,720 Speaker 2: in that sense. They were really until the twentieth century. 380 00:21:21,800 --> 00:21:24,440 Speaker 2: They were very much centered on that. That's what they 381 00:21:24,440 --> 00:21:27,000 Speaker 2: were going to use to derive their quotes from, because 382 00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:29,520 Speaker 2: it would just demonstrate how great the English language was. 383 00:21:29,720 --> 00:21:33,000 Speaker 2: Look at how these amazing English writers used it. Right. So, 384 00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:37,320 Speaker 2: Herbert Coleridge died in eighteen sixty one. I get the 385 00:21:37,359 --> 00:21:40,640 Speaker 2: impression he was only working on it for a few years. 386 00:21:41,119 --> 00:21:43,800 Speaker 1: But he was because he died right, right, but four 387 00:21:43,840 --> 00:21:44,280 Speaker 1: years later. 388 00:21:44,320 --> 00:21:47,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, so it was like four years, right. But he 389 00:21:47,320 --> 00:21:50,000 Speaker 2: really threw himself into it so much so that he 390 00:21:50,040 --> 00:21:56,399 Speaker 2: apparently on his deathbed he had definitions like slips scattered about, 391 00:21:56,680 --> 00:22:00,320 Speaker 2: like on the quilt of his deathbed. He died working, Yeah, 392 00:22:00,359 --> 00:22:04,720 Speaker 2: and he had contracted tuberculosis. And when the doctor was like, 393 00:22:04,920 --> 00:22:07,280 Speaker 2: this is not ever going to get better. It will 394 00:22:07,280 --> 00:22:09,760 Speaker 2: get better, but you're going to be dead, That's how 395 00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:13,040 Speaker 2: it's going to get better, Herbert Coleridge was like, oh, 396 00:22:13,119 --> 00:22:16,360 Speaker 2: I must start Sanskrit tomorrow, which has taken to mean 397 00:22:16,400 --> 00:22:19,840 Speaker 2: that he had never learned Sanskrit. He was a polyglot. 398 00:22:20,080 --> 00:22:22,600 Speaker 2: He studied all sorts of different languages, and he had 399 00:22:22,600 --> 00:22:24,679 Speaker 2: never gotten to Sanskrit. Now that he realized he's going 400 00:22:24,760 --> 00:22:26,960 Speaker 2: to die, he needed to start on it tomorrow. 401 00:22:27,880 --> 00:22:31,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, ironically dying of what was then known as Consumption 402 00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:34,840 Speaker 1: and later TB. So that's a new usage and a 403 00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:39,679 Speaker 1: new entry. Yeah, eighteen seventy nine, we're skipping forward. And 404 00:22:39,720 --> 00:22:41,720 Speaker 1: like I said, this is twenty years after they started. 405 00:22:42,160 --> 00:22:44,840 Speaker 1: This is when they finally found that publisher. At the time, 406 00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:48,960 Speaker 1: they were known another since as Clarendon, later to be 407 00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:54,439 Speaker 1: known as DA DA DA the Oxford University Press. And 408 00:22:54,560 --> 00:22:57,919 Speaker 1: even though they didn't specifically call it the Oxford English 409 00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:03,320 Speaker 1: Dictionary until late I believe the very first publishing in 410 00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:07,159 Speaker 1: nineteen twenty eight was called a New English Dictionary on 411 00:23:07,359 --> 00:23:08,680 Speaker 1: Historical Principles. 412 00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:12,840 Speaker 2: And so we should mention that after Coleridge died, it 413 00:23:13,040 --> 00:23:15,680 Speaker 2: just the whole thing kind of like lost momentum. He 414 00:23:15,760 --> 00:23:18,920 Speaker 2: was a real driving force as the first editor. But 415 00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:21,840 Speaker 2: you know, a few I think twenty or so years 416 00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:25,879 Speaker 2: later it started to pick up again, and it was 417 00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:28,840 Speaker 2: thanks to a new editor named James Murray, who I 418 00:23:28,840 --> 00:23:32,560 Speaker 2: believe was the third editor of all, and he took 419 00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:35,000 Speaker 2: this ball and ran with it, and he is the 420 00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:38,520 Speaker 2: person that you can point to as the one who 421 00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:44,119 Speaker 2: ultimately got the OED published. He was the true driving 422 00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:44,800 Speaker 2: force of it. 423 00:23:45,560 --> 00:23:50,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, Murray was Scottish, came from a just sort 424 00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:54,520 Speaker 1: of a regular working class, middle class background, was the 425 00:23:54,520 --> 00:23:57,280 Speaker 1: son of a tailor. Apparently his father was a very 426 00:23:57,320 --> 00:24:02,000 Speaker 1: smart man and known for being a smart and sober person. 427 00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:05,000 Speaker 1: And James as a child was a prodigy, was a 428 00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:09,200 Speaker 1: language prodigy, learned his ABC's before he was eighteen months, 429 00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:14,440 Speaker 1: was apparently reading and writing in Greek by seven, left 430 00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:19,000 Speaker 1: school at fourteen, was studying four languages and eventually came 431 00:24:19,160 --> 00:24:22,520 Speaker 1: to London to be the headmaster of a school there. 432 00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:25,080 Speaker 1: And that is where in London he joined up with 433 00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:30,680 Speaker 1: the Philological Society. And like you said, he was the guy. 434 00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:32,960 Speaker 1: He was also the guy who had another ten year 435 00:24:33,800 --> 00:24:36,520 Speaker 1: completion prediction. He said this will take ten years from now. 436 00:24:37,480 --> 00:24:41,080 Speaker 1: And after five years of that ten year prediction, they 437 00:24:41,119 --> 00:24:42,800 Speaker 1: had a through ant. 438 00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:47,080 Speaker 2: No yes, wow. I would just see that and be like, 439 00:24:47,119 --> 00:24:47,880 Speaker 2: well I quit. 440 00:24:48,760 --> 00:24:50,200 Speaker 1: He's like a lot of that was on boarding, you. 441 00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:55,040 Speaker 2: Understand, jeez man, that's crazy. Yeah, But it also goes 442 00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:57,640 Speaker 2: to show how little they actually had gotten done apparently 443 00:24:57,800 --> 00:24:59,320 Speaker 2: under Coleridge's command. 444 00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:04,520 Speaker 1: Ye, and was just they wanted jokes about Grandpa. Come on, 445 00:25:04,560 --> 00:25:06,080 Speaker 1: tell me what was Sammy really like? 446 00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:10,040 Speaker 2: So the one thing that you said, I think from 447 00:25:10,119 --> 00:25:13,680 Speaker 2: the start was that this was a crowdsource project. 448 00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:14,680 Speaker 1: Yeah. 449 00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:16,840 Speaker 2: And it's not like the OED makes a secret about this. 450 00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:20,879 Speaker 2: They're very deferential to the volunteers that have worked for 451 00:25:20,920 --> 00:25:23,159 Speaker 2: them over the years because they just could not have 452 00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:26,480 Speaker 2: done this without them. It was just too big of 453 00:25:26,600 --> 00:25:29,600 Speaker 2: an undertaking to for just a small group of people 454 00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:33,920 Speaker 2: to have done by themselves. And there were a lot 455 00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:37,280 Speaker 2: of different people. There's a book out there called The 456 00:25:37,359 --> 00:25:38,320 Speaker 2: Dictionary People. 457 00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:40,800 Speaker 1: What's it about? 458 00:25:42,119 --> 00:25:43,040 Speaker 2: Isn't that what it's called? 459 00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:45,320 Speaker 4: I don't know where is it? 460 00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:48,720 Speaker 2: Yep, The Dictionary People. I think it's fairly new. And 461 00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:52,119 Speaker 2: the author had worked at the OED and before she 462 00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:56,760 Speaker 2: left she had gotten from the archives. She'd come across 463 00:25:57,160 --> 00:26:01,639 Speaker 2: James Murray's address book and it was pretty thick because 464 00:26:01,720 --> 00:26:04,840 Speaker 2: it had the names and addresses of a lot of 465 00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:11,480 Speaker 2: the volunteer correspondents that were working contributing quotations to the Dictionary. 466 00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:14,000 Speaker 2: And so she decided to write a book tracking down 467 00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:16,600 Speaker 2: who these people were, and that's what she came up with, 468 00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:19,080 Speaker 2: this book called The Dictionary People, and she found some 469 00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:22,680 Speaker 2: pretty interesting stuff. For example, about one in six by 470 00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:28,720 Speaker 2: her estimate, were women, including James Murray's wife and daughters. 471 00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:32,320 Speaker 2: He drafted them and got a lot of support and 472 00:26:32,359 --> 00:26:36,199 Speaker 2: help from them. Apparently the editing the OED did not 473 00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:39,960 Speaker 2: pay much, but he had dedicated his life essentially to 474 00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:41,960 Speaker 2: it and his family supported him in that, which was 475 00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:46,280 Speaker 2: pretty great. And a lot of other women contributed to right. 476 00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:51,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, the daughter of Karl Marx, Eleanor Marx, contributed and 477 00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:55,359 Speaker 1: it was apparently fired by Murray for not doing the 478 00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:59,040 Speaker 1: assignment properly, not sticking to the assignment. And by the way, 479 00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:02,720 Speaker 1: Sarah ogilvie Is wrote the Dictionary People. Yeah, nice, I'd 480 00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:04,600 Speaker 1: like to check that out. I bet it's a good book. Yeah. 481 00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:08,439 Speaker 1: Another writer that Allison found from this book to highlight 482 00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:12,639 Speaker 1: his name Marganita Alaski, who's alive from nineteen fifteen to 483 00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:19,240 Speaker 1: nineteen eighty eight. Marganita contributed thirteen thousand quotes to twenty 484 00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:23,800 Speaker 1: Century Supplements and Marginita was a critic and a journalist 485 00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:26,520 Speaker 1: and a novelist and kind of made the rounds on 486 00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:29,480 Speaker 1: TV shows and stuff back in the day, starting in 487 00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:33,720 Speaker 1: the late fifties and into the sixties. And you know, 488 00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:37,600 Speaker 1: when people are volunteering like this, they can sort of 489 00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:41,520 Speaker 1: like guide their like have their own path forward and 490 00:27:41,560 --> 00:27:44,440 Speaker 1: how they want to tackle the project almost and who 491 00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:46,440 Speaker 1: they want to highlight or words they want to highlight. 492 00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:50,240 Speaker 1: And at some point Marginita Alaski got into sort of 493 00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:52,640 Speaker 1: away from the high brow thing and said, I want 494 00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:55,879 Speaker 1: to start, you know, looking at domestic manuals and all 495 00:27:55,920 --> 00:28:00,800 Speaker 1: these old ancient cookbooks and you know, modern news newspapers 496 00:28:00,840 --> 00:28:04,399 Speaker 1: and famous diaries, and just a really unique approach to 497 00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:06,560 Speaker 1: come up with some of those thirteen thousand entries. 498 00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:10,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, and that was a that was a real change. Remember, 499 00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:14,040 Speaker 2: I said that they had really kind of had their 500 00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:17,399 Speaker 2: blinders on just looking for, you know, the pinnacle of 501 00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:21,480 Speaker 2: English literature for quotations. Under James Murray, he was like, no, 502 00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:25,480 Speaker 2: we're gonna not only look for new sources, we're also 503 00:28:25,520 --> 00:28:30,480 Speaker 2: going to include slang. We're gonna include like vulgar words, 504 00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:33,879 Speaker 2: like uh huh. We're like, if it's an English word, 505 00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:36,680 Speaker 2: we're going to include it because we're documenting the entire 506 00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:40,120 Speaker 2: English language. So that was a huge sea change for 507 00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:42,840 Speaker 2: the direction of the dictionary, And apparently he was under 508 00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:46,480 Speaker 2: a tremendous amount of pressure to not to not go 509 00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:48,600 Speaker 2: that way, to kind of stick with the original plan, 510 00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:51,040 Speaker 2: and he said no, he said nine. 511 00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:57,000 Speaker 1: No, he said no, Uh, I mentioned nickers. Is that underwear? 512 00:28:57,480 --> 00:29:01,239 Speaker 1: That's what nickers are, right? Okay, So as soon as 513 00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:03,280 Speaker 1: I said it was like, wait a minute, did I 514 00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:03,960 Speaker 1: say the wrong word? 515 00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:06,280 Speaker 2: You were thinking of Fanny? 516 00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:07,960 Speaker 1: And what's a knickerbocker? 517 00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:11,360 Speaker 2: A knickerbocker is a think. I think it's the short 518 00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:14,000 Speaker 2: pants that were like kind of cinched at the knee 519 00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:16,080 Speaker 2: that you think of with like a little newsboys. 520 00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:19,240 Speaker 1: So the New York Knicks named after the Knickerbockers. That's 521 00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:19,760 Speaker 1: what they were. 522 00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:22,920 Speaker 2: I don't know if they did or not. No, they 523 00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:26,960 Speaker 2: were named after the Knickerbocker, like the story club that 524 00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:28,680 Speaker 2: Washington Irving was a member of. 525 00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:31,520 Speaker 1: Oh really, are you making homposite? 526 00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:34,840 Speaker 2: No, I'm pretty sure that's correct. I sometimes get things wrong. 527 00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:37,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, but I well, this is off the dome, so 528 00:29:37,680 --> 00:29:38,480 Speaker 1: I'll look it up. 529 00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:38,880 Speaker 2: Okay. 530 00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:41,360 Speaker 1: So back to Murray. He's working with his wife eleven 531 00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:44,800 Speaker 1: kids at his house mainly, and not only at his house, 532 00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:48,440 Speaker 1: but mainly in his little shed that he had built 533 00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:54,000 Speaker 1: behind the house in the garden called the Scriptorium, and 534 00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:57,240 Speaker 1: they worked on it here a once. They got a 535 00:29:57,360 --> 00:30:00,720 Speaker 1: through aunt in eighteen eighty four, he was like, we 536 00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:03,400 Speaker 1: need some help here, so they hired a second editor 537 00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:07,520 Speaker 1: named Henry Bradley, and then not too long after that 538 00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:10,640 Speaker 1: added two more co editors, so you essentially had a 539 00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:14,680 Speaker 1: team of four editors at that point. That we're working 540 00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:18,200 Speaker 1: with teams and teams of people, so a lot of 541 00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:23,000 Speaker 1: people working. Murray at his scriptorium there at home. But 542 00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:27,440 Speaker 1: then he moved to Oxford and built another larger scriptorium 543 00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:30,160 Speaker 1: there behind his house, and things were getting so busy 544 00:30:30,320 --> 00:30:34,680 Speaker 1: the local post put a po box right there by 545 00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:38,480 Speaker 1: his little front driveway, by his sidewalk, and it's still there. Yeah, 546 00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:41,840 Speaker 1: if you look it up, this beautiful red PO box 547 00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:45,000 Speaker 1: with a little placard saying that you know, Murray lived 548 00:30:45,040 --> 00:30:48,000 Speaker 1: here and this was the post to gather these slips 549 00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:49,680 Speaker 1: that helped create the OED. 550 00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:52,960 Speaker 2: I saw, and actually I was obscure that the placard 551 00:30:52,960 --> 00:30:54,760 Speaker 2: doesn't say that. It just says that the guy who 552 00:30:54,880 --> 00:30:58,120 Speaker 2: created the OED lived here. And they just walk right 553 00:30:58,160 --> 00:31:01,240 Speaker 2: past the post office box, so it's literally in front 554 00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:02,920 Speaker 2: of the placard. They don't even mention it. 555 00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:05,600 Speaker 1: The most amazing part of the story. 556 00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:09,720 Speaker 2: It's one of the it's one of the greatest grossest 557 00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:14,680 Speaker 2: government oversights in history, so thousands. 558 00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:17,360 Speaker 1: Of people contributing. At this point, Murray is still beating 559 00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:21,760 Speaker 1: the drum and like writing open letters to newspapers and stuff, saying, hey, 560 00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:24,120 Speaker 1: we were still doing this. We you know, trying to 561 00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:27,440 Speaker 1: keep that fire going. And people it wasn't just people 562 00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:30,600 Speaker 1: in England. People from all over the world were contributing. 563 00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:34,160 Speaker 1: And I think when they finally they had so many 564 00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:37,000 Speaker 1: slips because you know, they're filing these as they get 565 00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:40,760 Speaker 1: them alphabetically, they're slotting them in and they have these 566 00:31:40,840 --> 00:31:44,360 Speaker 1: lexicographers working around the clock as well. When they finally 567 00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:46,760 Speaker 1: put out the first supplement in nineteen thirty three, they 568 00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:49,880 Speaker 1: still had one hundred and forty thousand slips left over. 569 00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:52,880 Speaker 2: It's so nuts. Again, I would have been like, well 570 00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:56,240 Speaker 2: I quit. Yeah, it's just too daunting. I can barely 571 00:31:56,280 --> 00:31:57,360 Speaker 2: talk about this stuff. 572 00:31:58,120 --> 00:31:59,720 Speaker 1: Yeah. I think thirty three, that's the first year they 573 00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:03,200 Speaker 1: have fecially called it the o ED Okay, but. 574 00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:07,200 Speaker 2: Everyone was kind of calling that anyway, were they really yeah, 575 00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:10,920 Speaker 2: okay crazy, So they kind of went with the change. 576 00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:15,160 Speaker 2: The English Language changed the name of the dictionary for them. 577 00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:19,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, because whatever that long thing, I a new English 578 00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:24,200 Speaker 1: dictionary on historical principles. It was printed by the Oxford 579 00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:29,200 Speaker 1: English Press, so everyone was just calling it that anyway. 580 00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:32,360 Speaker 1: So yeah, I guess it was a sense plus oed. 581 00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:37,480 Speaker 2: Sounds better than the NED, you know. Yeah, sure, do 582 00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:39,120 Speaker 2: you want to take another break and come back and 583 00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:43,840 Speaker 2: talk about arguably the most interesting contributor of all Sure? 584 00:32:44,200 --> 00:33:04,920 Speaker 4: Okay? 585 00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:10,200 Speaker 1: So Murray dies of pleurisy in nineteen fifteen. Did not 586 00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:13,760 Speaker 1: see the first final edition put out, which is very 587 00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:18,240 Speaker 1: sad that would be what thirteen years later, but did 588 00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:21,600 Speaker 1: put out most of the fascicles by that point, just 589 00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:26,400 Speaker 1: wasn't compiled into the one edition. Different people JRR Tolkien 590 00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:29,760 Speaker 1: worked for a year on this in nineteen nineteen. Lots 591 00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:32,720 Speaker 1: of volunteers, but as you promised. Oh and Murray was 592 00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:35,160 Speaker 1: also knighted in nineteen oh eight. I didn't those troubles. 593 00:33:35,280 --> 00:33:35,520 Speaker 2: Wow. 594 00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:38,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, apparently knighted, but still a bit of an outsider 595 00:33:38,480 --> 00:33:44,400 Speaker 1: in the hoity toity Oxford. You know, Literati always felt 596 00:33:44,440 --> 00:33:47,120 Speaker 1: like an outsider and wasn't even given an honorary degree 597 00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:49,200 Speaker 1: until like the year before he died or something. 598 00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:51,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, and when he walked across the stage, what he 599 00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:54,840 Speaker 2: didn't realize is that one of the faculty had taped 600 00:33:54,840 --> 00:33:57,720 Speaker 2: a kick me signed to his back, so he didn't 601 00:33:57,760 --> 00:34:00,240 Speaker 2: He never understood why the audience is laughing, and he 602 00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:02,880 Speaker 2: grabbed his honorary decree. He was very sad he never 603 00:34:02,920 --> 00:34:03,280 Speaker 2: got it. 604 00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:07,280 Speaker 1: So you promised to talk of the most interesting, perhaps 605 00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:12,320 Speaker 1: most celebrated volunteer, and that is one doctor William Chester Minor. 606 00:34:13,239 --> 00:34:14,719 Speaker 1: If you've seen the movie or read the book The 607 00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:18,520 Speaker 1: Professor and the Madman, the book was by Simon Winchester, 608 00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:22,200 Speaker 1: and the book starred mel Gibson as Murray and Sean 609 00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:26,920 Speaker 1: Penn as the quote unquote Madman Chester Minor. I have 610 00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:29,279 Speaker 1: not seen it. Apparently it's not very good. And mel 611 00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:33,680 Speaker 1: Gibson and the director tried to you know, they didn't 612 00:34:33,680 --> 00:34:35,520 Speaker 1: support the movie in the press, and they tried to 613 00:34:35,560 --> 00:34:38,280 Speaker 1: get their I don't know if get their name removed, 614 00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:39,640 Speaker 1: but they basically disowned it. 615 00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:42,360 Speaker 2: Really, I thought mel Gibson was the one whose movie 616 00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:43,719 Speaker 2: it was, whose idea. 617 00:34:44,239 --> 00:34:47,320 Speaker 1: Well it was his production company, yeah, but he apparently 618 00:34:47,640 --> 00:34:49,600 Speaker 1: he took him to court because he didn't get final 619 00:34:49,640 --> 00:34:52,320 Speaker 1: cut like they said, and he didn't get to shoot 620 00:34:52,360 --> 00:34:54,719 Speaker 1: for a week in Oxford like he wanted to. And 621 00:34:54,760 --> 00:34:57,439 Speaker 1: he's basically like this thing is garbage because you didn't 622 00:34:57,520 --> 00:34:59,360 Speaker 1: let me do what I wanted to. So I'm not 623 00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:01,040 Speaker 1: supporting it. John Ben just what. 624 00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:06,000 Speaker 2: That stinks because apparently the book was just amazing. The 625 00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:08,120 Speaker 2: professor and the Madman, I know. 626 00:35:08,080 --> 00:35:10,560 Speaker 1: And it's such a great story. But I heard other 627 00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:12,879 Speaker 1: people defend it and say, you know, it was pretty good. 628 00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:15,120 Speaker 1: I had great acting, and like he just you know, 629 00:35:15,520 --> 00:35:17,320 Speaker 1: got his knickers in a wad. 630 00:35:19,680 --> 00:35:25,759 Speaker 2: So where the madman is doctor William Chester Minor, you said, right, 631 00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:29,600 Speaker 2: let's references. And the reason that they call him the 632 00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:31,920 Speaker 2: mad man is because at the time he was diagnosed 633 00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:37,240 Speaker 2: with either dementia prey cox or paranoid schizophrenia, and today 634 00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:40,359 Speaker 2: we would call either of those just plain old schizophrenia 635 00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:45,680 Speaker 2: spectrum disorder. But this was the mid nineteenth century and 636 00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:49,520 Speaker 2: doctor Minor was suffering from this at a time when 637 00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:53,040 Speaker 2: they did not understand what they were dealing with. They 638 00:35:53,120 --> 00:35:55,120 Speaker 2: just knew that this guy was pretty bad off and 639 00:35:55,200 --> 00:35:59,440 Speaker 2: needed care essentially for the rest of his life. He 640 00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:02,759 Speaker 2: had started out as a military doctor. I believe he 641 00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:06,120 Speaker 2: graduated from Yale Medical School and entered the Civil War 642 00:36:06,840 --> 00:36:09,520 Speaker 2: as a military doctor pretty much right off the bat. 643 00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:16,319 Speaker 2: And there's some stories about when his symptoms began. Allegedly 644 00:36:16,719 --> 00:36:20,080 Speaker 2: it was from things he was exposed to during his 645 00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:23,640 Speaker 2: time in the Civil War. One is there's a story 646 00:36:23,640 --> 00:36:27,240 Speaker 2: that he supposedly had to brand a deserter, an Irish 647 00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:31,760 Speaker 2: deserter from the Union with a D on his face, 648 00:36:32,360 --> 00:36:34,439 Speaker 2: and that having to do that to that poor man 649 00:36:34,600 --> 00:36:38,360 Speaker 2: just made him snap essentially, or brought his symptoms on 650 00:36:38,480 --> 00:36:40,440 Speaker 2: is a different way to say it. Or he was 651 00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:47,360 Speaker 2: involved in the Battle of the Wilderness outside of Spotsylvania, Virginia. 652 00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:50,439 Speaker 2: Either way, we don't know. We just know that, yes, 653 00:36:50,520 --> 00:36:54,000 Speaker 2: this man definitely had schizophrenia. We don't know how it 654 00:36:54,239 --> 00:36:56,920 Speaker 2: came on or if there was even any trigger, but 655 00:36:57,040 --> 00:37:00,560 Speaker 2: we just kind of join him around the time after 656 00:37:00,600 --> 00:37:02,480 Speaker 2: the Civil War when he's still in the army, but 657 00:37:02,560 --> 00:37:04,640 Speaker 2: he's really starting to show symptoms. 658 00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:07,160 Speaker 1: Yeah. And also, by the way, this is how we 659 00:37:07,239 --> 00:37:09,800 Speaker 1: knew that Alison really has the goods as a researcher 660 00:37:09,840 --> 00:37:12,960 Speaker 1: and writer, because Alison was like, hey, be careful with 661 00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:15,640 Speaker 1: his stuff because you know, there are a lot of 662 00:37:15,640 --> 00:37:17,760 Speaker 1: stories out there, and just don't don't buy up everything 663 00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:20,840 Speaker 1: you're reading here right, music to our ears. 664 00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:25,280 Speaker 2: She also told us how to pronounce right, yeah. 665 00:37:25,200 --> 00:37:29,360 Speaker 1: That's true. The first writer to ever include pronunciation it's nice, 666 00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:34,560 Speaker 1: so like you said. An army doctor, an army surgeon 667 00:37:35,880 --> 00:37:39,280 Speaker 1: working at the US General Hospital in New Haven, Connecticut, 668 00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:43,880 Speaker 1: also a flute player, apparently a very ambitious guy. And 669 00:37:44,080 --> 00:37:48,239 Speaker 1: because of you know, kind of how his schizophrenia played 670 00:37:48,239 --> 00:37:52,640 Speaker 1: out were delusions of persecution, a lot of delusions of 671 00:37:52,719 --> 00:37:57,120 Speaker 1: being attacked sexually, and you know, I think that speaks 672 00:37:57,120 --> 00:38:00,759 Speaker 1: for itself. They got pretty bad, and he apparently would 673 00:38:00,760 --> 00:38:04,440 Speaker 1: wander red light districts of places where he lived. He 674 00:38:04,480 --> 00:38:07,359 Speaker 1: said this is because of his disorder. He was sent 675 00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:09,600 Speaker 1: to an asylum in Washington while he was still in 676 00:38:09,640 --> 00:38:13,200 Speaker 1: the army, although he would get his discharge in eighteen seventy. 677 00:38:13,760 --> 00:38:17,000 Speaker 1: While he was still there, he thought he could get 678 00:38:17,040 --> 00:38:20,560 Speaker 1: better if he went to the UK and get treatment there, 679 00:38:20,680 --> 00:38:24,840 Speaker 1: and so in eighteen seventy two in London, he found 680 00:38:24,920 --> 00:38:29,600 Speaker 1: himself in waking from a delusion that he was being attacked, 681 00:38:29,640 --> 00:38:34,919 Speaker 1: I think sexually attacked by an Irish Republican, and got 682 00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:37,520 Speaker 1: up from bed and ran out to the street like 683 00:38:37,640 --> 00:38:42,120 Speaker 1: guns blazing, thinking he was shooting at his tormentor, and 684 00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:46,120 Speaker 1: killed an innocent man, a brewery worker named George Merritt, 685 00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:48,240 Speaker 1: who was on his way to work that early morning. 686 00:38:48,600 --> 00:38:51,520 Speaker 2: Yes, so that was enough for the British government. He'd 687 00:38:51,520 --> 00:38:53,319 Speaker 2: already been discharged from the army. I don't know if 688 00:38:53,360 --> 00:38:55,279 Speaker 2: you said or not by the time he made it 689 00:38:55,280 --> 00:38:59,879 Speaker 2: to the UK. And in the UK the authorities were like, Okay, 690 00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:02,800 Speaker 2: we're going to introduce you to one of our asylums 691 00:39:02,840 --> 00:39:06,840 Speaker 2: called broad Moore and in Broadmore. This is the nineteenth century. 692 00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:10,000 Speaker 2: You did not want to be in an asylum of 693 00:39:10,080 --> 00:39:13,600 Speaker 2: any sort in the nineteenth century. They were horrible, terrible 694 00:39:13,640 --> 00:39:17,480 Speaker 2: places where humans were treated like about as bad as 695 00:39:17,520 --> 00:39:22,200 Speaker 2: humans can be treated. And yet either he was charming 696 00:39:22,480 --> 00:39:25,680 Speaker 2: or wealthy enough, or a combination of both. He was 697 00:39:25,719 --> 00:39:28,160 Speaker 2: able to play his flute, he was able to wear 698 00:39:28,200 --> 00:39:32,560 Speaker 2: his own clothes, go on walks, and very importantly he 699 00:39:32,600 --> 00:39:35,280 Speaker 2: was able to bring his personal library of very rare 700 00:39:35,719 --> 00:39:40,239 Speaker 2: books from the seventeenth and eighteenth century with him, and 701 00:39:40,239 --> 00:39:42,360 Speaker 2: they actually gave him another cell to serve as his 702 00:39:42,440 --> 00:39:46,920 Speaker 2: personal library essentially. And I'll bet Sean Penn playing that 703 00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:51,000 Speaker 2: flute is something to see. I mean that, above anything else, 704 00:39:51,040 --> 00:39:52,320 Speaker 2: is why I want to see that movie. 705 00:39:53,840 --> 00:39:56,200 Speaker 1: It's like in The Anchor Man, he pulls it from 706 00:39:56,200 --> 00:39:58,720 Speaker 1: a sleeve in. Yeah, it's very. 707 00:39:58,520 --> 00:40:02,040 Speaker 3: Fake, Hey aquolog No, no, no. 708 00:40:02,920 --> 00:40:03,840 Speaker 1: Oh no, not again. 709 00:40:03,960 --> 00:40:05,200 Speaker 2: Yep, it just happened. 710 00:40:06,040 --> 00:40:08,480 Speaker 1: He stayed in touch. This is kind of interesting here 711 00:40:08,520 --> 00:40:10,880 Speaker 1: that he did stay in touch with the wife, the 712 00:40:10,920 --> 00:40:14,480 Speaker 1: widow of the man that he killed, and she brought 713 00:40:14,560 --> 00:40:18,319 Speaker 1: him books even, which is amazing and kind of a 714 00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:20,920 Speaker 1: nice ending to that story. Yeah. I don't know the 715 00:40:20,920 --> 00:40:23,080 Speaker 1: ins and outs. Maybe I don't know. Maybe he did 716 00:40:23,080 --> 00:40:24,479 Speaker 1: her a favor. Maybe he was a bad guy. 717 00:40:25,239 --> 00:40:28,960 Speaker 2: No, apparently he wasn't. He was a choking Oh well, 718 00:40:29,000 --> 00:40:33,279 Speaker 2: he apparently contacted her and apologized, made some sort of restitution. 719 00:40:33,640 --> 00:40:35,320 Speaker 2: I took that to mean like gave her some money. 720 00:40:35,760 --> 00:40:38,319 Speaker 2: But she accepted his apologies. She didn't have to do that. 721 00:40:38,600 --> 00:40:40,600 Speaker 2: So I think it says a lot about both of them. 722 00:40:41,360 --> 00:40:44,839 Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. When it came to the OED, he 723 00:40:44,880 --> 00:40:47,680 Speaker 1: really poured himself into this as as an avid reader 724 00:40:47,680 --> 00:40:49,840 Speaker 1: and had all those rare books, like you said, but 725 00:40:50,000 --> 00:40:52,040 Speaker 1: didn't do the thing that they said, which was, hey, 726 00:40:52,160 --> 00:40:55,839 Speaker 1: read these books and look for these words. He said, Nope, 727 00:40:55,920 --> 00:40:59,920 Speaker 1: here's what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna read a book 728 00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:03,440 Speaker 1: at a time, and i'm gonna start I guess it 729 00:41:03,520 --> 00:41:05,520 Speaker 1: says with one letter. I guess he started with the 730 00:41:05,600 --> 00:41:09,800 Speaker 1: letter A and just started looking through all the books 731 00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:12,520 Speaker 1: for all the letter a's, and then again for the 732 00:41:12,600 --> 00:41:14,000 Speaker 1: letter b's, and so on and so on. 733 00:41:14,239 --> 00:41:17,759 Speaker 2: Yeah, and it was a fruitful way to search for 734 00:41:18,000 --> 00:41:21,560 Speaker 2: quotations using specific words, because I think within just a 735 00:41:21,640 --> 00:41:24,960 Speaker 2: couple of years he had generated and sent in between 736 00:41:25,160 --> 00:41:30,720 Speaker 2: five and six thousand slips of quotations to James Murray. 737 00:41:31,320 --> 00:41:34,520 Speaker 2: And as the years went on, no one seems to 738 00:41:34,600 --> 00:41:38,919 Speaker 2: know how many he sent in, but he I mean 739 00:41:38,960 --> 00:41:42,520 Speaker 2: tens and tens of thousands of slips came directly from 740 00:41:43,000 --> 00:41:45,320 Speaker 2: doctor Minor during his time abroad. 741 00:41:45,400 --> 00:41:48,960 Speaker 1: More. Yeah, they eventually met in person. I mean this 742 00:41:49,040 --> 00:41:51,600 Speaker 1: was a relationship to span a couple of decades. Yeah, 743 00:41:51,960 --> 00:41:54,360 Speaker 1: hundreds of quotes a week, and they met in eighteen 744 00:41:54,440 --> 00:42:00,359 Speaker 1: ninety one. Finally, apparently the superintendent of the asylum both 745 00:42:00,400 --> 00:42:03,200 Speaker 1: men at his house, and they met a few more 746 00:42:03,239 --> 00:42:06,640 Speaker 1: times after that. I watched the trailer of the movie today, 747 00:42:06,800 --> 00:42:11,279 Speaker 1: and I'm not sure how accurate it is, but it 748 00:42:11,320 --> 00:42:14,200 Speaker 1: seems like they'd met here and there over the years. 749 00:42:14,200 --> 00:42:16,640 Speaker 1: And in the book, it was like, you know, mel 750 00:42:16,680 --> 00:42:19,960 Speaker 1: Gibson doing a pretty bad Scottish accent, saying like you 751 00:42:20,120 --> 00:42:21,719 Speaker 1: and I have partners. 752 00:42:22,200 --> 00:42:23,200 Speaker 2: You complete me. 753 00:42:24,400 --> 00:42:27,960 Speaker 1: It was kind of like that, and I'm not really 754 00:42:28,040 --> 00:42:31,160 Speaker 1: sure if that was the real case in real life. 755 00:42:31,160 --> 00:42:35,200 Speaker 2: Well so, apparently from what I saw, James Murray considered 756 00:42:35,239 --> 00:42:39,400 Speaker 2: it just as a decent human being, he needed to 757 00:42:39,400 --> 00:42:43,120 Speaker 2: go support doctor Minor. Whether doctor Minor was contributing or not. 758 00:42:43,200 --> 00:42:45,600 Speaker 2: I think it helped that doctor Minor was contributing, but 759 00:42:46,320 --> 00:42:49,040 Speaker 2: they did have some sort of friendship or relationship, but 760 00:42:49,080 --> 00:42:51,759 Speaker 2: it went beyond just you know, the editor and the 761 00:42:51,760 --> 00:42:53,000 Speaker 2: contributor kind of thing. 762 00:42:53,800 --> 00:42:54,600 Speaker 1: Well maybe it wasn't. 763 00:42:54,680 --> 00:43:01,120 Speaker 2: And supposedly doctor Minor kept like finding excuses anytime James 764 00:43:01,400 --> 00:43:04,680 Speaker 2: Murray was like, well let's meet, you know, I'm just 765 00:43:04,719 --> 00:43:07,760 Speaker 2: across like the city, let's meet for lunch or something, 766 00:43:08,040 --> 00:43:09,640 Speaker 2: and doctor Mom would be like, I can't, you know, 767 00:43:09,680 --> 00:43:11,880 Speaker 2: I broke my foot, or my sister's coming to visit whatever. 768 00:43:11,920 --> 00:43:14,200 Speaker 2: And then finally, I'm not sure how he finally found out, 769 00:43:14,719 --> 00:43:18,359 Speaker 2: either doctor Miner admitted to it or James Murray found 770 00:43:18,360 --> 00:43:20,719 Speaker 2: out somehow, but he finally did find out that he 771 00:43:20,800 --> 00:43:23,359 Speaker 2: was institutionalized, and then he started to go visit him. 772 00:43:24,040 --> 00:43:27,439 Speaker 2: Oh okay, pretty neat and then he saw him off 773 00:43:28,200 --> 00:43:31,719 Speaker 2: after doctor Minor was released from brob Moore so he 774 00:43:31,760 --> 00:43:35,279 Speaker 2: could go back to be institutionalized in America. It was 775 00:43:35,320 --> 00:43:37,200 Speaker 2: clear that he wasn't going to be around too many 776 00:43:37,239 --> 00:43:40,720 Speaker 2: more years. James Murray saw him off at the docks 777 00:43:40,719 --> 00:43:44,120 Speaker 2: and gave him six unpublished volumes of the first edition 778 00:43:44,200 --> 00:43:45,319 Speaker 2: that hadn't come out yet. 779 00:43:46,239 --> 00:43:49,719 Speaker 1: Yeah, he had a very sad end to a sad life. 780 00:43:50,440 --> 00:43:53,880 Speaker 1: He had those delusions of being sexually violated, and in 781 00:43:53,920 --> 00:43:59,440 Speaker 1: December nineteen oh two, he tied a tourniquet around his 782 00:43:59,520 --> 00:44:03,080 Speaker 1: penis and he cut it off in what he called 783 00:44:03,440 --> 00:44:06,839 Speaker 1: in the interests of morality, because what he believed is 784 00:44:06,960 --> 00:44:09,480 Speaker 1: that he had delusions that he was being taking out 785 00:44:09,480 --> 00:44:13,000 Speaker 1: of the asylum for years and years at night and 786 00:44:13,080 --> 00:44:17,320 Speaker 1: forced to have sex with women all around the asylum 787 00:44:17,480 --> 00:44:20,560 Speaker 1: and in town. And so he cut his penis off. 788 00:44:20,600 --> 00:44:23,879 Speaker 1: And after that, things really just weren't the same for him. 789 00:44:24,320 --> 00:44:27,680 Speaker 1: It seems like things went pretty downhill pretty quickly, although 790 00:44:28,000 --> 00:44:29,920 Speaker 1: he died in nineteen twenty so that was, you know, 791 00:44:30,000 --> 00:44:32,040 Speaker 1: another eighteen years of suffering. 792 00:44:32,200 --> 00:44:36,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, as far as his contributions, that really went downhill 793 00:44:36,400 --> 00:44:36,880 Speaker 2: after that. 794 00:44:38,160 --> 00:44:42,279 Speaker 1: Man, Yeah, very sad, but super super interesting story and 795 00:44:42,719 --> 00:44:44,839 Speaker 1: great job Allison. This was really really cool. 796 00:44:44,920 --> 00:44:47,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, thanks a lot, Alison. This is great, great start. 797 00:44:48,160 --> 00:44:51,919 Speaker 2: Welcome to the team. And what Chuck? Since I said 798 00:44:51,920 --> 00:44:53,320 Speaker 2: welcome to the team, do you think it's time for 799 00:44:53,400 --> 00:44:54,040 Speaker 2: listener now? 800 00:44:54,680 --> 00:44:55,120 Speaker 1: I think so? 801 00:44:55,440 --> 00:45:00,279 Speaker 3: Okay, I'm going to call this cost of goods? 802 00:45:01,400 --> 00:45:04,480 Speaker 1: In that episode? What episode was it where you're talking 803 00:45:04,480 --> 00:45:05,440 Speaker 1: about the cost of goods? 804 00:45:05,719 --> 00:45:08,640 Speaker 2: I think the Harlem Globetrotters is where it recently came from. 805 00:45:08,719 --> 00:45:10,239 Speaker 1: Yeah, like, wwhy is it so expensive to go to 806 00:45:10,320 --> 00:45:12,280 Speaker 1: NBA game these days or get a meal or whatever? 807 00:45:13,080 --> 00:45:14,440 Speaker 1: We had a lot of people that write in, so 808 00:45:14,440 --> 00:45:18,840 Speaker 1: I don't think we even settled on a final point. 809 00:45:19,120 --> 00:45:20,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm still looking around. 810 00:45:20,760 --> 00:45:22,960 Speaker 1: There were a few different theories, but this one from 811 00:45:23,000 --> 00:45:25,040 Speaker 1: Matt I'm going to read, Hey, guys, I have a 812 00:45:25,160 --> 00:45:28,719 Speaker 1: partial explanation for the question why does it cost so 813 00:45:28,800 --> 00:45:30,239 Speaker 1: much more for a nice meal than it used to 814 00:45:30,840 --> 00:45:36,719 Speaker 1: even adjusting for inflation? Bal mal bauml bal Mal's cost 815 00:45:36,800 --> 00:45:39,879 Speaker 1: disease might help explain. This refers to the rising costs 816 00:45:39,880 --> 00:45:44,160 Speaker 1: associated with service or labor intensive industries over time, despite 817 00:45:44,280 --> 00:45:48,080 Speaker 1: no corresponding increase in productivity. So imagine a restaurant in 818 00:45:48,080 --> 00:45:50,120 Speaker 1: the nineteen fifties, you have a server, take your order, 819 00:45:50,200 --> 00:45:53,840 Speaker 1: chef cooks of food, someone else cleans up after you're done. 820 00:45:54,080 --> 00:45:57,239 Speaker 1: Fast forward to today. Despite all the technological advances, you 821 00:45:57,280 --> 00:45:59,840 Speaker 1: still need that server stake the order. You still need 822 00:45:59,920 --> 00:46:03,080 Speaker 1: the chef, You still need the staff to clean. The 823 00:46:03,160 --> 00:46:06,000 Speaker 1: humans have not been replaced by machines or software. In 824 00:46:06,000 --> 00:46:08,440 Speaker 1: a lot of these cases, you can't speed up the 825 00:46:08,520 --> 00:46:10,920 Speaker 1: chef the way you can double the speed of a 826 00:46:10,960 --> 00:46:14,760 Speaker 1: factory machine without sacrificing quality. So if you own a restaurant, 827 00:46:14,760 --> 00:46:16,680 Speaker 1: you still need roughly the same number of workers that 828 00:46:16,680 --> 00:46:20,520 Speaker 1: you've had that you needed in the fifties. Roughly, Yet 829 00:46:20,560 --> 00:46:22,560 Speaker 1: wages for the staff have gone up over the years. 830 00:46:22,680 --> 00:46:25,160 Speaker 1: That's a whole other rabbit hole. The restaurant has to 831 00:46:25,160 --> 00:46:27,920 Speaker 1: pay its staff more over time without getting more meals 832 00:46:27,960 --> 00:46:30,160 Speaker 1: per worker. So what do you do You pass it 833 00:46:30,160 --> 00:46:32,760 Speaker 1: on to the customers. By the way, this also explains 834 00:46:32,760 --> 00:46:35,600 Speaker 1: why stuff like health insurance and childcare have also gotten 835 00:46:35,640 --> 00:46:38,279 Speaker 1: way more expensive relative to other stuff. You still need 836 00:46:38,320 --> 00:46:40,880 Speaker 1: the same number of daycare workers per kid and nurses 837 00:46:40,920 --> 00:46:44,520 Speaker 1: per patient that you did in past decades. This was 838 00:46:44,560 --> 00:46:47,160 Speaker 1: a good one, Matt we got some other ideas and 839 00:46:47,239 --> 00:46:50,480 Speaker 1: imagine it's kind of all these things probably, but balml's 840 00:46:50,520 --> 00:46:53,200 Speaker 1: cost disease is a great explanation. And that is from 841 00:46:53,200 --> 00:46:53,760 Speaker 1: Matt Farmer. 842 00:46:53,840 --> 00:46:55,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, thanks a lot, Matt, though, was a good one. 843 00:46:56,000 --> 00:46:58,920 Speaker 2: It's the whole thing's brewing. I don't know what it's 844 00:46:58,960 --> 00:47:01,440 Speaker 2: going to turn into. That will definitely be part of it, 845 00:47:01,480 --> 00:47:01,879 Speaker 2: for sure. 846 00:47:03,040 --> 00:47:07,120 Speaker 1: Perhaps a Josh Clark solo ten part series The Cost 847 00:47:07,160 --> 00:47:08,360 Speaker 1: of Goods with Josh Clark. 848 00:47:08,520 --> 00:47:12,040 Speaker 2: I don't think so. No, no, I'm going to make 849 00:47:12,080 --> 00:47:12,640 Speaker 2: you do it with me. 850 00:47:13,760 --> 00:47:18,479 Speaker 1: Oh no, no no. So that was from Matt right, yeah, 851 00:47:18,480 --> 00:47:19,040 Speaker 1: Matt Farmer. 852 00:47:19,239 --> 00:47:21,279 Speaker 2: Matt Farmer, thank you very much for that. And if 853 00:47:21,280 --> 00:47:23,200 Speaker 2: you want to be like Matt Farmer and show off 854 00:47:23,200 --> 00:47:25,960 Speaker 2: your braininess and try to answer a burning question we have. 855 00:47:26,160 --> 00:47:28,279 Speaker 2: We love that kind of thing. You can send it 856 00:47:28,280 --> 00:47:35,800 Speaker 2: to us via email to stuff podcast at iHeartRadio dot com. 857 00:47:35,960 --> 00:47:38,840 Speaker 1: Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For 858 00:47:38,920 --> 00:47:43,080 Speaker 1: more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 859 00:47:43,200 --> 00:47:45,040 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.