1 00:00:12,920 --> 00:00:18,599 Speaker 1: I guess I grew up. Hey, everybody, welcome to episode one, 2 00:00:19,040 --> 00:00:22,280 Speaker 1: sixties seven of The Hunting Collective. Phil I've totally forgot 3 00:00:22,280 --> 00:00:25,880 Speaker 1: the episode number. We had to start over. I apologize. Yeah, 4 00:00:25,920 --> 00:00:28,280 Speaker 1: I mean that happens is probably every other episode, so 5 00:00:28,400 --> 00:00:31,159 Speaker 1: that's fine. I'm used to it. We're just talking about this. 6 00:00:31,200 --> 00:00:33,000 Speaker 1: Can I blame stuff on my kids? Or is that 7 00:00:33,200 --> 00:00:36,640 Speaker 1: me being a bad dad? I think using your kids 8 00:00:36,640 --> 00:00:39,000 Speaker 1: as an excuse to get out of something you don't 9 00:00:39,000 --> 00:00:41,280 Speaker 1: want to do, I think that's fine. But like they're 10 00:00:41,320 --> 00:00:43,920 Speaker 1: throwing them under the bus for your or you know, 11 00:00:44,120 --> 00:00:47,920 Speaker 1: short stupidity or irresponsibility. I think that's kind of taking 12 00:00:47,960 --> 00:00:50,519 Speaker 1: it too far. Well, they keep me up a lot. 13 00:00:50,560 --> 00:00:53,600 Speaker 1: I'm tired and I just forget things, and uh, I 14 00:00:53,640 --> 00:00:55,080 Speaker 1: can't blame it on them. I'm not gonna blame it 15 00:00:55,120 --> 00:00:58,400 Speaker 1: on them. Goot, wonderful little humans. We're joined by the 16 00:00:58,480 --> 00:01:02,360 Speaker 1: great and powerful Kayla rasa, Hey, Kayla, Hey, the great 17 00:01:02,360 --> 00:01:05,640 Speaker 1: and powerful. I appreciate that. Yeah, at least like the 18 00:01:06,000 --> 00:01:12,080 Speaker 1: melodic uh Kayla. However, hopefully we know you will um So, 19 00:01:13,080 --> 00:01:15,920 Speaker 1: I gotta tell you it's been about two or three 20 00:01:15,959 --> 00:01:18,240 Speaker 1: months that the song White Claw Wasted is stuck in 21 00:01:18,319 --> 00:01:20,360 Speaker 1: my head. I was just singing it. I just walked 22 00:01:20,400 --> 00:01:21,840 Speaker 1: into my studio here at my house and I was 23 00:01:21,840 --> 00:01:24,760 Speaker 1: just going in and going to get why. Just my 24 00:01:24,800 --> 00:01:26,560 Speaker 1: wife said, what are you singing it? Said, well, it's 25 00:01:26,600 --> 00:01:29,880 Speaker 1: a long story. Um, But I think a lot of 26 00:01:29,920 --> 00:01:32,840 Speaker 1: listeners this podcast love that song. So you gotta tell us, 27 00:01:33,200 --> 00:01:37,600 Speaker 1: tell us how you decided that was the thing to sing. Uh. 28 00:01:37,720 --> 00:01:39,560 Speaker 1: That that's cool. I'm having like a lot of own 29 00:01:39,640 --> 00:01:42,000 Speaker 1: influx of of your folks coming, which has been pretty 30 00:01:42,040 --> 00:01:44,920 Speaker 1: cool because of that. But I've played at a place 31 00:01:44,920 --> 00:01:48,240 Speaker 1: there's a little dog outside of Omaha, Nebraska called Books. 32 00:01:48,680 --> 00:01:51,240 Speaker 1: It's in Venice, Nebraska. It's the only I think it's 33 00:01:51,280 --> 00:01:53,360 Speaker 1: like also the post office and maybe like the town 34 00:01:53,360 --> 00:01:56,840 Speaker 1: hall of Venice, Nebraska too. But I played a gig 35 00:01:56,880 --> 00:01:59,560 Speaker 1: and I dude drove a long way to come hang 36 00:01:59,560 --> 00:02:01,600 Speaker 1: out for the weekend, and we all had a large time, 37 00:02:01,600 --> 00:02:04,680 Speaker 1: but he had a larger time than most. And you know, 38 00:02:04,800 --> 00:02:08,040 Speaker 1: the end of the night, everybody's you know, playing black 39 00:02:08,080 --> 00:02:10,640 Speaker 1: Hawk's greatest hits on the jukebox, you know, and they're like, 40 00:02:10,680 --> 00:02:12,800 Speaker 1: I love that, you get it. It's so great, you know, 41 00:02:13,320 --> 00:02:16,200 Speaker 1: And then this dude proceeded to fall asleep on the bar. 42 00:02:16,960 --> 00:02:18,520 Speaker 1: We gave him a hard time, but it was the 43 00:02:18,520 --> 00:02:20,280 Speaker 1: best part about is that he was drinking white clothe 44 00:02:20,280 --> 00:02:23,000 Speaker 1: the whole evening and so you know, we did all 45 00:02:23,040 --> 00:02:25,080 Speaker 1: like the college age things to do, like we wrote 46 00:02:25,080 --> 00:02:27,280 Speaker 1: on his face, and you know, he was he was 47 00:02:27,520 --> 00:02:31,640 Speaker 1: he was pretty sick. Anyway. I was challenged to write 48 00:02:31,639 --> 00:02:33,600 Speaker 1: a song about him being white clothe way so, but 49 00:02:33,639 --> 00:02:35,760 Speaker 1: I got to feel kind of bad about it because 50 00:02:35,760 --> 00:02:37,679 Speaker 1: we choosed him pretty good and he came a long 51 00:02:37,720 --> 00:02:40,120 Speaker 1: way to come to the show. So I thought maybe 52 00:02:40,120 --> 00:02:42,120 Speaker 1: I would do some plot that men who are secure 53 00:02:42,200 --> 00:02:44,959 Speaker 1: enough to drink white clothe or maybe a little more 54 00:02:45,040 --> 00:02:48,440 Speaker 1: heavily and down than others, and um, so that's I 55 00:02:48,480 --> 00:02:50,880 Speaker 1: really didn't. I love that you'll found that because it's 56 00:02:50,960 --> 00:02:53,519 Speaker 1: definitely his cell phone recording that we put on YouTube. 57 00:02:53,560 --> 00:02:55,440 Speaker 1: You can hear my dog eating food in the background. 58 00:02:55,480 --> 00:02:59,000 Speaker 1: It was it was a grown up thing. You know. 59 00:02:59,160 --> 00:03:02,240 Speaker 1: It was perfect. That's why it's perfect. And I love 60 00:03:02,280 --> 00:03:05,960 Speaker 1: the backstories even makes it more perfect because we you know, 61 00:03:06,360 --> 00:03:08,079 Speaker 1: I just started telling people that I like white cloe 62 00:03:08,080 --> 00:03:10,079 Speaker 1: like two summers ago. I started, you know, I can't 63 00:03:10,080 --> 00:03:12,840 Speaker 1: fire in the backyard. I drank this thing. I thought, well, this, 64 00:03:13,160 --> 00:03:14,840 Speaker 1: there's no way I can get drunk off this. I'll 65 00:03:14,880 --> 00:03:17,440 Speaker 1: have about six or eight of them. And then next thing, 66 00:03:17,480 --> 00:03:21,639 Speaker 1: you know, and I was like, Wow, it's this. Everything's 67 00:03:21,680 --> 00:03:25,240 Speaker 1: feeling great, everything's feeling good, music sounds better, the world 68 00:03:25,280 --> 00:03:26,920 Speaker 1: is clear. And since then, we've talked a lot about 69 00:03:26,919 --> 00:03:30,440 Speaker 1: white claw on this show. Phil thinks that natural lime 70 00:03:30,560 --> 00:03:34,640 Speaker 1: is the best flavor. Bullshit. We all know that that 71 00:03:34,680 --> 00:03:41,960 Speaker 1: it's mango. We all know that it's Mango's good. That's good. No, 72 00:03:42,000 --> 00:03:45,080 Speaker 1: that's not terrible, that's not terrible. But you appreciate a 73 00:03:45,080 --> 00:03:48,560 Speaker 1: man like me who might drink a mango flavored Seltzer 74 00:03:48,560 --> 00:03:51,120 Speaker 1: water drink, yeah, me and secure enough to do that, 75 00:03:51,280 --> 00:03:53,040 Speaker 1: you know, ID hurt so much. I have to drink 76 00:03:53,080 --> 00:03:56,320 Speaker 1: Jameson and water, you know, because I approved. So if 77 00:03:56,360 --> 00:04:01,800 Speaker 1: you're confident enough to walk around the white closet, that's 78 00:04:01,800 --> 00:04:04,440 Speaker 1: one way. That's very kind of you. It's a very 79 00:04:04,520 --> 00:04:08,080 Speaker 1: kind way to put it. That's very Yeah. One time 80 00:04:08,520 --> 00:04:10,760 Speaker 1: I was actually went to the Jameson Distillery one time 81 00:04:10,840 --> 00:04:13,840 Speaker 1: in Dublin and they were serving I was shocked that 82 00:04:13,880 --> 00:04:17,279 Speaker 1: they were serving cranberry. Jamieson's at their little bar. I thought, 83 00:04:18,080 --> 00:04:22,680 Speaker 1: what self respecting irishman walking here? They must it must 84 00:04:22,680 --> 00:04:25,240 Speaker 1: be for tourists. They must do that just for the tourists. 85 00:04:25,480 --> 00:04:28,200 Speaker 1: I'm like, what self suspecting irishman will walk in and 86 00:04:28,240 --> 00:04:31,760 Speaker 1: have a Jamieson and cranberry. That can't be a thing. 87 00:04:31,839 --> 00:04:34,479 Speaker 1: There's no way. That's that's the washout process, right, Like 88 00:04:34,480 --> 00:04:38,320 Speaker 1: that's how they pick off somebody that. Yeah, they would 89 00:04:38,400 --> 00:04:40,600 Speaker 1: slide that across the table and if you put your 90 00:04:40,600 --> 00:04:42,120 Speaker 1: hand towards it, they're like, oh I no, no, no, 91 00:04:43,320 --> 00:04:47,479 Speaker 1: you're out. You're just qualified, You're just qualified. All right, Well, listen, 92 00:04:47,480 --> 00:04:50,200 Speaker 1: I got we gotta explain the artistic process because what 93 00:04:50,440 --> 00:04:52,320 Speaker 1: ended up what we called it a contest in the 94 00:04:52,360 --> 00:04:54,760 Speaker 1: beginning to write our new theme song, but it became 95 00:04:54,880 --> 00:04:57,520 Speaker 1: kind of like an art project in a way. We 96 00:04:57,560 --> 00:05:00,440 Speaker 1: had people. I told everyone not to send me cordings 97 00:05:00,440 --> 00:05:04,680 Speaker 1: of them singing there proposed lyrics, but people did anyway, 98 00:05:04,839 --> 00:05:07,719 Speaker 1: So then I had to listen to these awful renditions 99 00:05:07,720 --> 00:05:11,479 Speaker 1: of these wonderful poems and songs that people sent in. 100 00:05:11,600 --> 00:05:14,720 Speaker 1: So we I counted we had a hundred and three 101 00:05:14,839 --> 00:05:19,720 Speaker 1: people submit things, which is almost as many. Kaylee, you 102 00:05:19,720 --> 00:05:21,640 Speaker 1: won't know this, but we had once had people draw 103 00:05:21,800 --> 00:05:28,279 Speaker 1: Phil's face based only on his voice. That was a contest. Yeah, 104 00:05:28,320 --> 00:05:30,800 Speaker 1: that was a contest to see. Yeah, he likes it, 105 00:05:30,839 --> 00:05:34,040 Speaker 1: He's into it. Uh, we have, we had We had 106 00:05:34,080 --> 00:05:36,960 Speaker 1: like three hundred of those that that people actually sat 107 00:05:37,000 --> 00:05:39,720 Speaker 1: down with their families and to draw Phil's voice face. 108 00:05:39,880 --> 00:05:41,400 Speaker 1: So we didn't quite get the three hundred, but in 109 00:05:41,480 --> 00:05:44,680 Speaker 1: terms of like people writing poetry, we got a good 110 00:05:44,720 --> 00:05:48,679 Speaker 1: track record. Ranny, right Phil, Yeah, Yeah, too many people 111 00:05:48,839 --> 00:05:52,800 Speaker 1: enter these contests. I've said it before. Yeah, he thinks 112 00:05:52,800 --> 00:05:54,480 Speaker 1: people are wasting their time, but they're not. I don't 113 00:05:54,520 --> 00:05:57,320 Speaker 1: think they're wasting their time at all. Um, So we 114 00:05:57,360 --> 00:05:59,040 Speaker 1: got so what Here's what I did. I read them 115 00:05:59,040 --> 00:06:00,599 Speaker 1: all and there were three or four of them that 116 00:06:00,640 --> 00:06:04,200 Speaker 1: were my favorites, and I couldn't choose between just one 117 00:06:04,240 --> 00:06:06,640 Speaker 1: of them. And even though that this might be something 118 00:06:06,680 --> 00:06:10,279 Speaker 1: that offends the artistic sensibilities of our listeners, I kind 119 00:06:10,279 --> 00:06:13,320 Speaker 1: of like Frankenstein some stuff to get to what I 120 00:06:13,360 --> 00:06:17,840 Speaker 1: sent Kayla. Then this included lyrics from Brett Russell, Ryan 121 00:06:17,960 --> 00:06:23,480 Speaker 1: Savie and Costa Gus Phote m D always want to 122 00:06:23,520 --> 00:06:26,360 Speaker 1: see if I'm saying that wrong. But Gus who writes 123 00:06:26,400 --> 00:06:28,719 Speaker 1: it all the time, who wrote who wrote basically the 124 00:06:28,720 --> 00:06:33,840 Speaker 1: bones of this doctor guess Dr guess Um. And so 125 00:06:33,880 --> 00:06:35,799 Speaker 1: that's how we got here. I took all these lyrics 126 00:06:35,839 --> 00:06:37,560 Speaker 1: and I sent it to Kayla, and Kayla, when you 127 00:06:37,560 --> 00:06:39,919 Speaker 1: first read this, you thought these guys are idiots or 128 00:06:40,480 --> 00:06:43,760 Speaker 1: possibly geniuses underappreciated in their time. What did you what? 129 00:06:43,839 --> 00:06:47,480 Speaker 1: Do you feel absolutely that they're either idiots are possibly 130 00:06:47,520 --> 00:06:50,520 Speaker 1: your genius geniuses that are underappreciated in their time. That 131 00:06:50,560 --> 00:06:55,400 Speaker 1: was exactly it. Yep, it's good. Yeah, we're driving all right, 132 00:06:55,720 --> 00:06:58,760 Speaker 1: And so you spent some time over the weekend putting 133 00:06:58,760 --> 00:07:01,240 Speaker 1: it to a melody? Did you? Did you not? I 134 00:07:01,360 --> 00:07:03,920 Speaker 1: did I tread? I had, I have to say that 135 00:07:04,040 --> 00:07:06,200 Speaker 1: I did have. I called my my dad, and then 136 00:07:06,560 --> 00:07:09,520 Speaker 1: our buddy Josh Nimar, who's like an avid listener, because 137 00:07:09,520 --> 00:07:11,160 Speaker 1: I just really don't want to come on here and 138 00:07:11,200 --> 00:07:13,400 Speaker 1: sound like a chump, so ahead him like back check me, 139 00:07:13,520 --> 00:07:16,360 Speaker 1: you know, on a couple of couple of rearrangements here. 140 00:07:16,440 --> 00:07:20,480 Speaker 1: So you know, yeah, well that's goods. It's good that 141 00:07:20,520 --> 00:07:23,520 Speaker 1: you have somebody, uh in our little cult here that 142 00:07:23,920 --> 00:07:27,440 Speaker 1: like can inform me what it's like to be around. Um, 143 00:07:27,520 --> 00:07:29,640 Speaker 1: all right, well, unless you do you want to give 144 00:07:29,720 --> 00:07:32,120 Speaker 1: us any any thoughts prior or just plays a song 145 00:07:32,160 --> 00:07:35,680 Speaker 1: Because Phil, he's can He's been texting me about all 146 00:07:35,720 --> 00:07:37,320 Speaker 1: week and he can barely contain himself to hear this. 147 00:07:38,600 --> 00:07:44,800 Speaker 1: Well yeah, yeah, for sure. Um, I hit my data cap. Uh. 148 00:07:44,920 --> 00:07:46,720 Speaker 1: I want to hear the song, but also, Ben, I 149 00:07:46,760 --> 00:07:48,520 Speaker 1: kind of want to do a rewind after we hear 150 00:07:48,560 --> 00:07:52,000 Speaker 1: the song and hear about Kayla's origins and stuff. I 151 00:07:52,400 --> 00:07:54,280 Speaker 1: want to know her story. I don't know anything about 152 00:07:54,320 --> 00:07:56,480 Speaker 1: Kayla Ray. I think it my sterious. I think we 153 00:07:56,480 --> 00:07:58,320 Speaker 1: should keep it. I mean, it's up to you, Phil, 154 00:07:58,360 --> 00:08:02,320 Speaker 1: it's your show. But truth, I feel like the story 155 00:08:02,320 --> 00:08:05,360 Speaker 1: about White Claw Wasted is enough to keep me. All 156 00:08:05,400 --> 00:08:07,440 Speaker 1: I need to need to do is now know like 157 00:08:07,480 --> 00:08:10,440 Speaker 1: what the tour schedule is, and then that's all I 158 00:08:10,480 --> 00:08:13,840 Speaker 1: need to know, trust to you. Uh. Well, let's let's 159 00:08:13,880 --> 00:08:15,560 Speaker 1: hear the track. Let's hear it if kaylea if he 160 00:08:15,720 --> 00:08:20,400 Speaker 1: was ready, right, let's see. I'll try so there are 161 00:08:20,440 --> 00:08:25,960 Speaker 1: lots of like hmm, same here, you know with the 162 00:08:26,960 --> 00:08:30,200 Speaker 1: pickup note, so we'll see. Okay, this is like I've 163 00:08:30,240 --> 00:08:32,839 Speaker 1: been in I've been in the industry for ten years 164 00:08:32,840 --> 00:08:35,600 Speaker 1: and this is like a culmination of ten years of 165 00:08:35,600 --> 00:08:38,760 Speaker 1: work to get to this point. So no pressure, thank 166 00:08:38,800 --> 00:08:53,400 Speaker 1: you pressure, appreciate it right, all right, your gun, Junior Mo. 167 00:08:53,720 --> 00:08:57,160 Speaker 1: We're glad to show Colin Hunters new and no we're 168 00:08:57,200 --> 00:09:03,880 Speaker 1: not on collective show working pick and shovel working, paining 169 00:09:03,920 --> 00:09:09,400 Speaker 1: and hand We congregate nows lovers over, I play with focus. 170 00:09:09,440 --> 00:09:12,679 Speaker 1: We're just living for the search, dreaming on the fire 171 00:09:12,760 --> 00:09:17,280 Speaker 1: with salted deil burn. Ain't come back and till it's 172 00:09:17,280 --> 00:09:21,120 Speaker 1: golden lane. Taking in slow so we can shoote straight, 173 00:09:22,520 --> 00:09:25,280 Speaker 1: clean your gun, jing your bowl. We're done galact to 174 00:09:25,360 --> 00:09:28,880 Speaker 1: show calling Hunter's new and old lane. No cold, I'm toll. 175 00:09:31,400 --> 00:09:34,599 Speaker 1: We're knowing to you good. We're all good enough. We 176 00:09:34,720 --> 00:09:39,840 Speaker 1: got filthy engineer calling any shooters blow. Are times I'm 177 00:09:39,920 --> 00:09:44,320 Speaker 1: calling and bitter begins crying. Just remember there's always been 178 00:09:45,880 --> 00:09:50,160 Speaker 1: ruling barries. Are gonna let the taking it in slow 179 00:09:50,320 --> 00:09:57,800 Speaker 1: so we can shoote stream ah, jan your gun, Janior B. 180 00:09:58,120 --> 00:10:01,839 Speaker 1: We're gleected show call and Hunters now and oh ain't 181 00:10:01,840 --> 00:10:07,800 Speaker 1: no where fans or facs and opinions are subjective. You're 182 00:10:07,880 --> 00:10:16,880 Speaker 1: listening then, Oh yeah we did it? Phil, Are you clapping. Oh, 183 00:10:16,920 --> 00:10:19,200 Speaker 1: I'm clapping yeah. And then I just like to point 184 00:10:19,200 --> 00:10:21,760 Speaker 1: out that we didn't do anything. That was all Kayla 185 00:10:21,880 --> 00:10:25,400 Speaker 1: Ray and and our listeners. So I that was that 186 00:10:25,520 --> 00:10:27,719 Speaker 1: was that's too good for this show, right, that is 187 00:10:27,800 --> 00:10:29,560 Speaker 1: way too good. I was thinking that too. I'm like, 188 00:10:29,600 --> 00:10:32,640 Speaker 1: this is too good for this show, and maybe we 189 00:10:32,720 --> 00:10:34,920 Speaker 1: all get famous together. I don't, I don't. I mean, 190 00:10:35,240 --> 00:10:38,600 Speaker 1: it could have happened, Kayla, Kayla, that was bad. That 191 00:10:38,720 --> 00:10:49,680 Speaker 1: was bad. Yeah, I'm glad. I knew. I wanted to 192 00:10:49,720 --> 00:10:52,160 Speaker 1: give you no instruction, just to Gonta let you. Let 193 00:10:52,160 --> 00:10:54,240 Speaker 1: you play it now, Phil, Phil thinks that's too long 194 00:10:54,280 --> 00:10:56,080 Speaker 1: to play at the beginning of every show. I don't 195 00:10:56,120 --> 00:10:57,719 Speaker 1: think it's too I think people will listen to all 196 00:10:57,840 --> 00:11:00,880 Speaker 1: however long that is, Phil, I was going to agree 197 00:11:00,920 --> 00:11:02,800 Speaker 1: with you. I think that they are like some potential 198 00:11:02,840 --> 00:11:05,559 Speaker 1: for like some little like a you know, like the 199 00:11:05,720 --> 00:11:08,559 Speaker 1: out of time tagline or like just like a hook 200 00:11:08,679 --> 00:11:11,400 Speaker 1: or something. But you know what do I know? I 201 00:11:11,440 --> 00:11:14,040 Speaker 1: don't know, No, you know a lot. So we got 202 00:11:14,160 --> 00:11:17,160 Speaker 1: a workshop this Phil, Uh, here's the here's my idea. 203 00:11:17,160 --> 00:11:18,760 Speaker 1: I think we put some in the beginning of the show, 204 00:11:18,880 --> 00:11:21,880 Speaker 1: some at the end, and then a little interstitial. That's good. Yeah, 205 00:11:21,920 --> 00:11:24,160 Speaker 1: we could do like the first verse, the first verse 206 00:11:24,240 --> 00:11:26,079 Speaker 1: in the in the beginning, and maybe the second in 207 00:11:26,160 --> 00:11:29,200 Speaker 1: the for the out trail or something. Yeah, well, we'll 208 00:11:29,240 --> 00:11:32,880 Speaker 1: work on it. We've got plenty of options. Caleb, I 209 00:11:32,960 --> 00:11:34,520 Speaker 1: just wanted this badass is the only thing I was 210 00:11:34,520 --> 00:11:36,680 Speaker 1: thinking when you were As I was dancing and clapping, 211 00:11:36,679 --> 00:11:38,320 Speaker 1: I was thinking, this is the most badest thing that 212 00:11:38,360 --> 00:11:42,600 Speaker 1: ever happened to me. Uh, I've done some some particularly 213 00:11:42,640 --> 00:11:47,440 Speaker 1: badass things. So thank you. And please tell people where 214 00:11:47,480 --> 00:11:49,400 Speaker 1: they can find your music, where they can see you. 215 00:11:49,440 --> 00:11:51,040 Speaker 1: I know you said you were like back to torn 216 00:11:51,120 --> 00:11:54,600 Speaker 1: Live when when the world uh well, I guess now 217 00:11:54,720 --> 00:11:56,400 Speaker 1: and then also when the world gets back to normal. 218 00:11:56,480 --> 00:11:59,200 Speaker 1: But tell people where they can. They've already found you 219 00:11:59,280 --> 00:12:01,520 Speaker 1: up by searching White Glove Waiste that I think probably 220 00:12:01,520 --> 00:12:05,439 Speaker 1: on YouTube. Where else can they find you? Yeah, my 221 00:12:05,600 --> 00:12:08,360 Speaker 1: YouTube present Sacket's six. I really gotta work on that. 222 00:12:08,400 --> 00:12:11,800 Speaker 1: This was a good awareness of that. But kaylor Ray 223 00:12:11,920 --> 00:12:14,240 Speaker 1: music dot Com is the website and that's where most 224 00:12:14,280 --> 00:12:17,200 Speaker 1: of the tour and stuff is. And you know, Facebook 225 00:12:17,240 --> 00:12:19,200 Speaker 1: and Instagram and all that, but it's all under kaylor 226 00:12:19,240 --> 00:12:24,320 Speaker 1: Ray Music, Apple Music, Amazon, the Audiota all of it. Phil, 227 00:12:24,400 --> 00:12:26,439 Speaker 1: I think I'll let you will close out. You can 228 00:12:26,440 --> 00:12:29,320 Speaker 1: ask a few origin story questions since you're you're so interesting. 229 00:12:29,320 --> 00:12:30,400 Speaker 1: I don't want to. I don't want to leave that 230 00:12:30,400 --> 00:12:34,439 Speaker 1: off the table. No, I'm just curious because you're talking 231 00:12:34,440 --> 00:12:36,200 Speaker 1: about touring. Clearly you've been doing this for a while. 232 00:12:36,200 --> 00:12:38,120 Speaker 1: When did you get started? How did you get started? 233 00:12:39,559 --> 00:12:41,640 Speaker 1: I've been at it about ten years, like as a 234 00:12:41,640 --> 00:12:45,599 Speaker 1: grown up, you know, Um, I'm really dig it. I 235 00:12:45,920 --> 00:12:48,240 Speaker 1: grew up in White Coo, Texas, and I got a 236 00:12:48,240 --> 00:12:50,400 Speaker 1: gig pretty early on, and I was already playing and 237 00:12:50,480 --> 00:12:52,319 Speaker 1: writing and stuff, but tour manage them for a guy 238 00:12:52,360 --> 00:12:55,800 Speaker 1: named Jason Eaty. So I was slefting deer and running 239 00:12:55,840 --> 00:12:58,080 Speaker 1: around and just learning. Really, I mean, I didn't know 240 00:12:58,120 --> 00:12:59,800 Speaker 1: it at all what I was doing. He just really 241 00:12:59,800 --> 00:13:02,319 Speaker 1: through me a bone. But um, he produced my first 242 00:13:02,360 --> 00:13:05,040 Speaker 1: two records and I've just been at it, at it 243 00:13:05,080 --> 00:13:07,959 Speaker 1: ever since. I really I did it. I wouldn't trade it. 244 00:13:07,960 --> 00:13:11,319 Speaker 1: It's crazy, but I would. I wouldn't trade it. Great. Yeah, 245 00:13:11,320 --> 00:13:13,720 Speaker 1: that's awesome. We'll get back to my kids. When I 246 00:13:13,760 --> 00:13:16,120 Speaker 1: think of like what I want him to be, I 247 00:13:16,200 --> 00:13:19,240 Speaker 1: think of man musician as crazy as it would be 248 00:13:19,280 --> 00:13:21,880 Speaker 1: as hard as to succeed as a musician. It's just 249 00:13:22,880 --> 00:13:24,920 Speaker 1: I'm gonna I'm gonna suggest for both of them, like 250 00:13:25,040 --> 00:13:26,800 Speaker 1: try to find a way to get your art out 251 00:13:26,800 --> 00:13:29,679 Speaker 1: on that you know, and that's in that setting, because man, 252 00:13:29,760 --> 00:13:33,120 Speaker 1: it's great. Tell him to stay in school and like 253 00:13:33,280 --> 00:13:36,080 Speaker 1: do everything. But like this shot, I shouldn't have said 254 00:13:36,080 --> 00:13:41,280 Speaker 1: that word. Sorry, guard your credit, scool, don't be ridiculous 255 00:13:41,360 --> 00:13:42,920 Speaker 1: for your growing up, like all the things. If they 256 00:13:42,920 --> 00:13:44,719 Speaker 1: were my children, I would tell them the opposite. But 257 00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:50,160 Speaker 1: I appreciate you. Say do your taxes. Yeah, I'm with you. 258 00:13:50,800 --> 00:13:53,559 Speaker 1: I feel you well, Kayla. We appreciate it. This is 259 00:13:53,559 --> 00:13:56,520 Speaker 1: a life change for us. I'll have Phil connect with 260 00:13:56,559 --> 00:13:58,200 Speaker 1: you and get all the particulars on the music and 261 00:13:58,240 --> 00:14:00,800 Speaker 1: if if you don't mind, we'll use that every time 262 00:14:00,840 --> 00:14:03,960 Speaker 1: we post a show from now until they cancel us. Yeah, 263 00:14:03,960 --> 00:14:06,720 Speaker 1: thank you for that. I'll have to record a version 264 00:14:06,720 --> 00:14:08,400 Speaker 1: of it that doesn't have all a bunch of blips 265 00:14:08,400 --> 00:14:11,480 Speaker 1: in it. But I appreciate you a lot. This is fun. No, 266 00:14:11,679 --> 00:14:14,840 Speaker 1: this is so good. I appreciate I had at least 267 00:14:14,840 --> 00:14:16,800 Speaker 1: three or four listeners email me. The link to White 268 00:14:16,800 --> 00:14:19,200 Speaker 1: Claw wasist and I'm glad they did. I'm glad we 269 00:14:19,240 --> 00:14:21,200 Speaker 1: can connect with you, and we'll have to have you 270 00:14:21,240 --> 00:14:23,000 Speaker 1: back on or Be and Phil I have to come 271 00:14:23,040 --> 00:14:24,880 Speaker 1: to one of your live shows. You every close around 272 00:14:25,840 --> 00:14:28,920 Speaker 1: uh Montaney for sure. Hey, I would love to do that. 273 00:14:28,960 --> 00:14:31,280 Speaker 1: I get up to Bozeman putting often. I used to, 274 00:14:31,760 --> 00:14:35,000 Speaker 1: so I'm ill let the killer you let us know. Alright, 275 00:14:35,080 --> 00:14:41,720 Speaker 1: Kayla appreciate it. Alright, thanks, thank you, Philip T. Engineer. 276 00:14:43,040 --> 00:14:45,800 Speaker 1: That was awesome. Dude, I keep saying awesome and badass. 277 00:14:45,840 --> 00:14:49,280 Speaker 1: I don't. I can't really articulate how excited I am stupendous. 278 00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:52,400 Speaker 1: I just don't. I felt like I was even bumbling 279 00:14:52,400 --> 00:14:54,200 Speaker 1: over my words with Kayleb because I was a little 280 00:14:54,200 --> 00:14:58,320 Speaker 1: bit starstruck by her awesomeness. Yeah, it's it's I gotta say. 281 00:14:58,320 --> 00:15:00,280 Speaker 1: It's very cool for her to agree to do this. 282 00:15:00,480 --> 00:15:02,120 Speaker 1: And I was telling you when we were off Mike 283 00:15:02,200 --> 00:15:05,040 Speaker 1: that you were it was the right call to to 284 00:15:05,080 --> 00:15:07,800 Speaker 1: follow up with her after we heard that White Claw song. Well, 285 00:15:07,920 --> 00:15:10,080 Speaker 1: that White Claw song has been embedded in my psyche 286 00:15:10,120 --> 00:15:13,040 Speaker 1: for about three months. Every time I pop open a 287 00:15:13,040 --> 00:15:17,000 Speaker 1: white Claw, I like I sing a little little little 288 00:15:17,000 --> 00:15:18,720 Speaker 1: bit of it. But yeah, I was I was a 289 00:15:18,760 --> 00:15:20,520 Speaker 1: little for clemmed. I was so excited to hear that 290 00:15:20,560 --> 00:15:23,960 Speaker 1: song and talked to Kayla. I don't apologies, I felt. Yeah, 291 00:15:23,960 --> 00:15:26,240 Speaker 1: I gotta say I also did not expect such a 292 00:15:26,600 --> 00:15:29,880 Speaker 1: great origin story for the song too. I thought it 293 00:15:29,920 --> 00:15:33,120 Speaker 1: was yeah, I know that's I mean, the whole thing, man, 294 00:15:33,640 --> 00:15:37,200 Speaker 1: the whole thing is exciting. Um. Well, again, thank you 295 00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:40,480 Speaker 1: to Kayla ray go check her out, man follow her. 296 00:15:40,640 --> 00:15:43,120 Speaker 1: She's done something for our show that she didn't have 297 00:15:43,200 --> 00:15:46,080 Speaker 1: to do. And I am a little bit taken back 298 00:15:46,120 --> 00:15:48,440 Speaker 1: by how great that song wasn't And I can't wait 299 00:15:48,480 --> 00:15:50,720 Speaker 1: to have you guys, force you guys to listen to 300 00:15:50,720 --> 00:15:53,640 Speaker 1: it before you get to the podcast forever and ever 301 00:15:53,800 --> 00:15:56,640 Speaker 1: and ever. Um. But you know, we've got a lot 302 00:15:56,680 --> 00:15:58,600 Speaker 1: to get to. But I will say, of all of 303 00:15:58,640 --> 00:16:01,560 Speaker 1: you that wrote in that, thank you for writing in 304 00:16:02,600 --> 00:16:06,560 Speaker 1: the The poetry and lyrical abilities of our listeners are 305 00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:09,800 Speaker 1: I would say, unmatched in the hunting podcast space. I 306 00:16:09,840 --> 00:16:14,080 Speaker 1: feel like our listeners are the best lyrical artists of 307 00:16:14,160 --> 00:16:17,320 Speaker 1: any of the many thousands of podcasts in our category. 308 00:16:17,760 --> 00:16:20,640 Speaker 1: So thank you for that. Specifically thanks to Dr Gus 309 00:16:21,520 --> 00:16:25,480 Speaker 1: Ryan everybody that that I'll be saying you guys an 310 00:16:25,480 --> 00:16:28,160 Speaker 1: email specifically, but we'll be calling you out in every episode. 311 00:16:28,240 --> 00:16:32,120 Speaker 1: Thank you for that song, and also thank Kayla Ready 312 00:16:32,120 --> 00:16:36,200 Speaker 1: for putting into music. So another wonderful, beautiful chapter of 313 00:16:36,240 --> 00:16:39,160 Speaker 1: t C. Let's come to a close down. We have 314 00:16:39,200 --> 00:16:41,280 Speaker 1: a theme song. Let's say it this way, Phil, I 315 00:16:41,280 --> 00:16:43,760 Speaker 1: think we're the first Mediator Network podcast to have its 316 00:16:43,800 --> 00:16:46,680 Speaker 1: own theme song. Can we say that that's a fact? 317 00:16:46,760 --> 00:16:48,720 Speaker 1: You can say that many will copy us after this, 318 00:16:49,240 --> 00:16:52,600 Speaker 1: but none will be able specifically. I think Bent will 319 00:16:52,640 --> 00:16:56,560 Speaker 1: copy us after this, but none of the other podcasts 320 00:16:56,720 --> 00:16:59,040 Speaker 1: are as cool as us. I think this cements it. 321 00:16:59,080 --> 00:17:02,280 Speaker 1: If you didn't already know we are are the best. 322 00:17:02,680 --> 00:17:05,280 Speaker 1: So we got some stuff to get to today's podcast. 323 00:17:05,760 --> 00:17:07,800 Speaker 1: If we didn't fill you in at the end of 324 00:17:07,800 --> 00:17:10,080 Speaker 1: the last week show, well enough. There's a little bit 325 00:17:10,280 --> 00:17:14,280 Speaker 1: of a response to I mean, I want to say 326 00:17:14,280 --> 00:17:16,560 Speaker 1: responses it's been a while, but a continuation of the 327 00:17:16,600 --> 00:17:19,560 Speaker 1: conversation and a little more clarification of the conversation around 328 00:17:19,600 --> 00:17:23,080 Speaker 1: animal rights and the conversation we had with Paul Basher. 329 00:17:24,800 --> 00:17:27,200 Speaker 1: So if you haven't listened to that Paul ba Sheeter episode, 330 00:17:27,240 --> 00:17:31,280 Speaker 1: head back and do that now, and we're back. Thank you. 331 00:17:31,359 --> 00:17:35,240 Speaker 1: For spending that time doing that. Uh. And we're gonna 332 00:17:35,400 --> 00:17:37,199 Speaker 1: go through a little bit of of what happened in 333 00:17:37,240 --> 00:17:40,160 Speaker 1: that conversation and explore a little bit more about animal rights, 334 00:17:40,320 --> 00:17:44,720 Speaker 1: animal welfare, all those things in this episode with our 335 00:17:44,800 --> 00:17:50,800 Speaker 1: favorite non beatle, Paul McCartney. Paul McCarney. Phil, Yes, he's 336 00:17:50,880 --> 00:17:54,080 Speaker 1: he's one letter away from being one of the most 337 00:17:54,080 --> 00:17:57,080 Speaker 1: prolific songwriters of our generation. And what I didn't know 338 00:17:57,160 --> 00:18:00,000 Speaker 1: that Phil was telling me about before this, and I've 339 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:02,679 Speaker 1: founded it this out as I was googling Paul McCartney 340 00:18:02,840 --> 00:18:06,199 Speaker 1: to read his articles, is that Paul McCartney is an 341 00:18:06,359 --> 00:18:11,679 Speaker 1: avid uh vegan and anti hunter. Yeah. I don't know. 342 00:18:11,760 --> 00:18:14,440 Speaker 1: I mean you would assume because he's such an outspoken vegan, 343 00:18:14,480 --> 00:18:16,399 Speaker 1: he's probably an anti hunter. I don't know about the 344 00:18:16,400 --> 00:18:18,439 Speaker 1: anti hunting thing though. I I just know that he 345 00:18:18,480 --> 00:18:20,840 Speaker 1: does not eat meat and is very he likes to 346 00:18:20,840 --> 00:18:23,919 Speaker 1: tell people about it. Um. But yeah, there there there 347 00:18:23,960 --> 00:18:27,040 Speaker 1: was a rumor. I think this is true. Good fact 348 00:18:27,119 --> 00:18:32,240 Speaker 1: check me. Uh. Weird Al Yankovic um wanted to do 349 00:18:32,280 --> 00:18:35,360 Speaker 1: a parody of Live and Let Die the Paul McCartney 350 00:18:35,440 --> 00:18:39,199 Speaker 1: James Bond song and call it Chicken Pot pie and 351 00:18:39,240 --> 00:18:42,040 Speaker 1: Paul McCartney did not give him permission because he did 352 00:18:42,040 --> 00:18:46,560 Speaker 1: not want to have a song about meat consumption, even 353 00:18:46,560 --> 00:18:50,080 Speaker 1: though it was a complete parody. And I don't know 354 00:18:50,119 --> 00:18:53,399 Speaker 1: if it was actually endorsing eating chicken pot pie, but 355 00:18:53,520 --> 00:18:55,439 Speaker 1: I can tell you that I endorse it, if that 356 00:18:55,480 --> 00:18:58,920 Speaker 1: means anything. Yeah, how about wild turkey pot pie once 357 00:18:58,960 --> 00:19:01,800 Speaker 1: we get this going. But so you're saying that Paul 358 00:19:01,880 --> 00:19:05,600 Speaker 1: McCartney is a rabbit anti hunter, calling him out rabbit 359 00:19:05,640 --> 00:19:10,040 Speaker 1: anti hunter famous Beatle did not say that, but living 360 00:19:10,119 --> 00:19:14,240 Speaker 1: legends possibly. Well, if you're if he's listening to this, 361 00:19:14,560 --> 00:19:16,920 Speaker 1: you're welcome on the show. We'll give you the we'll 362 00:19:16,920 --> 00:19:20,359 Speaker 1: give you the Paul A Sheer treatment. And yes, please please, 363 00:19:20,359 --> 00:19:23,200 Speaker 1: Paul McCartney, if you're listening, I'd love to have a chat. 364 00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:26,840 Speaker 1: Big fan. I've seen him in concert multiple times, have you? 365 00:19:27,280 --> 00:19:29,680 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, oh wow, I didn't know that. I could 366 00:19:29,680 --> 00:19:31,800 Speaker 1: have guessed. I could have guessed video games, beatles, it's 367 00:19:31,800 --> 00:19:36,480 Speaker 1: all that's all together, Yeah, it's all at all tracks. Hey, Phil, 368 00:19:36,600 --> 00:19:41,240 Speaker 1: you know last week you made a mistake, a big mistake. 369 00:19:41,600 --> 00:19:45,719 Speaker 1: And yeah, I know you did. Yeah you said that 370 00:19:45,760 --> 00:19:50,120 Speaker 1: you were making you said sarcastically, I think I think 371 00:19:50,119 --> 00:19:52,840 Speaker 1: it was sarcastically. I'm not sure that you were making 372 00:19:53,440 --> 00:19:57,960 Speaker 1: membership cards to the THHD cult. I said that it 373 00:19:58,160 --> 00:20:04,680 Speaker 1: was sarcastic. I aggrestion. You did receive several notes from 374 00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:08,639 Speaker 1: people asking you where here's my address? Please get the 375 00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:10,639 Speaker 1: card in the mail. I'd like it to be laminated. 376 00:20:11,040 --> 00:20:14,000 Speaker 1: This is true. And did you reply to those people? 377 00:20:14,720 --> 00:20:19,000 Speaker 1: Nod them. I forwarded them on to you. I'm not 378 00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:24,200 Speaker 1: gonna I'm not gonna apply to your emails, Phil, I mean, listen, 379 00:20:24,200 --> 00:20:27,639 Speaker 1: I was mostly offended that this person somehow found my email. 380 00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:29,280 Speaker 1: I mean, it's not like it's that hard to figure out. 381 00:20:29,320 --> 00:20:31,400 Speaker 1: I'm not going to say it on the air right now, 382 00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:34,840 Speaker 1: but but I was mostly just buddy, now you're opening 383 00:20:34,840 --> 00:20:38,119 Speaker 1: it up. He just just caught off guard, being like, 384 00:20:38,160 --> 00:20:40,120 Speaker 1: who is this schmuck? And how did he find out 385 00:20:40,160 --> 00:20:43,840 Speaker 1: my email address? People are right now thinking in their minds, 386 00:20:43,880 --> 00:20:47,880 Speaker 1: what is Phil's email and how could I figure it out. 387 00:20:47,920 --> 00:20:50,960 Speaker 1: I'm not going to help him because I can get 388 00:20:50,960 --> 00:20:53,720 Speaker 1: in trouble. But I know you're thinking about it now, 389 00:20:53,960 --> 00:20:56,359 Speaker 1: and you're thinking about sending him an email. Uh, And 390 00:20:56,440 --> 00:20:58,200 Speaker 1: I'm not I'm not going to dissuade you from thinking 391 00:20:58,240 --> 00:21:01,080 Speaker 1: about it actually do in it. That's up to you. 392 00:21:01,240 --> 00:21:03,000 Speaker 1: Let me just say that sending me any an email 393 00:21:03,040 --> 00:21:06,119 Speaker 1: will not get you a th HC membership card. So 394 00:21:06,160 --> 00:21:08,720 Speaker 1: you're not making just just as like a public service 395 00:21:08,720 --> 00:21:11,399 Speaker 1: and as when you're not making th HC membership cards 396 00:21:11,400 --> 00:21:15,160 Speaker 1: at all. No, unless you allow me to design them 397 00:21:15,240 --> 00:21:17,960 Speaker 1: in any way I want you get no notes, no 398 00:21:17,960 --> 00:21:21,800 Speaker 1: no no fit, no feedback, no feedback. Uh, and then 399 00:21:21,840 --> 00:21:24,719 Speaker 1: I can send them out to whomever I want. All right, 400 00:21:24,880 --> 00:21:28,359 Speaker 1: we can do it. It's fine. I'm so desperate to 401 00:21:28,400 --> 00:21:32,040 Speaker 1: be liked. Um. All right, well we're gonna get into 402 00:21:32,040 --> 00:21:34,720 Speaker 1: the animal rights anim welfare. But with the other mistake 403 00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:37,119 Speaker 1: we made last week is we mentioned that our Blue 404 00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:40,040 Speaker 1: Ridge contingent that's all going to take out our our 405 00:21:40,760 --> 00:21:45,000 Speaker 1: new Hunter uh, could be the first regional chapter. And 406 00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:46,960 Speaker 1: so lots of people wrote in that they want to 407 00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:49,840 Speaker 1: also take part in regional chapters and their neck of 408 00:21:49,840 --> 00:21:55,080 Speaker 1: the woods. Um, specifically Ben, our buddy will just say 409 00:21:55,119 --> 00:21:58,320 Speaker 1: his full name, Ben Upton, who has written in before. 410 00:21:59,119 --> 00:22:02,359 Speaker 1: He and he said, uh, but when you and Phil 411 00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:04,960 Speaker 1: were talking about it, you somewhat jokingly mentioned there would 412 00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:07,680 Speaker 1: be a regional chapters of the cult, and even though 413 00:22:07,680 --> 00:22:10,080 Speaker 1: you weren't necessarily serious, I think that this could be 414 00:22:10,160 --> 00:22:13,239 Speaker 1: kind of cool. I moved to Denver in September, and 415 00:22:13,280 --> 00:22:15,920 Speaker 1: since moving I've had a really, really, really hard time 416 00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:18,879 Speaker 1: meaning anyone to hunt because of COVID. In fact, the 417 00:22:18,920 --> 00:22:21,160 Speaker 1: only new person I meant to hunt was Hayes Hile, 418 00:22:21,480 --> 00:22:24,560 Speaker 1: who I found through the podcast if you'll remember back 419 00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:27,600 Speaker 1: in November. I am so passionate about hunting, and I'm 420 00:22:27,640 --> 00:22:29,920 Speaker 1: the type of hunter that wants to work hard, hike far, 421 00:22:30,080 --> 00:22:32,840 Speaker 1: and really get a good suffering before it's all said 422 00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:37,600 Speaker 1: and done. He likes to hunt turkeys, elk, mule, deer, grouse, 423 00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:40,080 Speaker 1: but the idea of going into these places alone is 424 00:22:40,080 --> 00:22:42,800 Speaker 1: a bit intimidating. So it's been pretty frustrating to not 425 00:22:42,880 --> 00:22:45,440 Speaker 1: have meant anyone that wants to go do these things 426 00:22:45,480 --> 00:22:48,240 Speaker 1: with me, especially because I know there are plenty of 427 00:22:48,280 --> 00:22:52,200 Speaker 1: folks that like those things around here. I think having 428 00:22:52,280 --> 00:22:54,440 Speaker 1: some way for cult members to reach out and find 429 00:22:54,440 --> 00:22:57,199 Speaker 1: each other will be really cool way for people to 430 00:22:57,240 --> 00:23:00,280 Speaker 1: find hunting partners in the times of COVID, even if 431 00:23:00,280 --> 00:23:04,760 Speaker 1: it's a forum or Facebook page or something like that. Um, 432 00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:07,360 Speaker 1: I'm fairly confident that most of the people that listen 433 00:23:07,359 --> 00:23:10,800 Speaker 1: to your podcast, especially the ones that would email honestly, 434 00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:13,800 Speaker 1: would be interested in regional chapters. And I got pretty 435 00:23:13,840 --> 00:23:16,159 Speaker 1: excited myself as the possibility of having a way to 436 00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:20,639 Speaker 1: meet like minded people to hunt without there. Okay, Phil, 437 00:23:21,520 --> 00:23:23,520 Speaker 1: what do we what do we do? Do you have 438 00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:26,399 Speaker 1: the time to manage this program? If I do not 439 00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:30,199 Speaker 1: have the time to make ten thousand laminated membership cards, 440 00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:33,720 Speaker 1: I don't think I have the time to to somehow 441 00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:37,639 Speaker 1: oversee this, uh this expansion of the THHC coult. But 442 00:23:37,760 --> 00:23:39,840 Speaker 1: I think that's why we have Barry Gilbert on the board, 443 00:23:39,960 --> 00:23:46,399 Speaker 1: right or not? Barry Gilberts excuse me? Wow? Wow, you 444 00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:48,760 Speaker 1: may want to cut that. Eric All may never listen again. 445 00:23:50,040 --> 00:23:52,439 Speaker 1: Uh yeah, we may have to approach Air Call about this. 446 00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:54,760 Speaker 1: See if he's got any extra time on his hands. Um, 447 00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:57,200 Speaker 1: I I gotta tell you, guys, I got absolutely no 448 00:23:57,280 --> 00:23:58,879 Speaker 1: extra time with my answer to run something like this. 449 00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:01,240 Speaker 1: But what I will do for all of you out there, 450 00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:05,280 Speaker 1: just very quickly, is if you email me and you're 451 00:24:05,280 --> 00:24:07,240 Speaker 1: in the situation where you'd like to meet new hunters, 452 00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:09,600 Speaker 1: we will put you, We will read, you will do 453 00:24:09,640 --> 00:24:12,400 Speaker 1: a little segment on the show, and we'll read your 454 00:24:12,520 --> 00:24:14,600 Speaker 1: name and where you live, and we'll ask people to 455 00:24:14,600 --> 00:24:16,040 Speaker 1: email in and I'll do and I'll make sure I 456 00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:18,160 Speaker 1: connect you. This is in the short term to solve 457 00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:19,880 Speaker 1: the problem with the t HD CALT. I don't want 458 00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:22,000 Speaker 1: people to think that I don't care. I certainly do care, 459 00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:25,440 Speaker 1: but it's cool to see it go this way. And 460 00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:28,280 Speaker 1: we want to help guys like Ben and our emergent 461 00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:30,439 Speaker 1: hunter from a couple of weeks ago find people that 462 00:24:30,600 --> 00:24:34,920 Speaker 1: go hunting in the field just like we do. So, UM, 463 00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:37,080 Speaker 1: if you're desperate out there and you need a little help, 464 00:24:37,560 --> 00:24:40,440 Speaker 1: email us and we will help of that, I can 465 00:24:40,480 --> 00:24:42,639 Speaker 1: promise you. Um, I think we've got in our in 466 00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:46,160 Speaker 1: our Blue Ridge Chapter, Phil our our in inaugural Blue 467 00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:49,160 Speaker 1: Ridge Chapter of the th HD colt at least at 468 00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:54,240 Speaker 1: this point fifteen people in that little bucket. So I'm 469 00:24:54,240 --> 00:24:57,800 Speaker 1: excited about that, and also excited to talk to Paul 470 00:24:57,880 --> 00:25:03,480 Speaker 1: McCartney again, the most unfortunate name in Googling history, Paul McCartney, 471 00:25:04,040 --> 00:25:08,520 Speaker 1: who is out of Newfoundland. He's a PhD up there 472 00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:11,760 Speaker 1: and done a lot of conservation work and writes very 473 00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:14,600 Speaker 1: beautifully about the issues in the Hunting Space. I wanted 474 00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:16,560 Speaker 1: to have him on to talk about a specific article 475 00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:20,400 Speaker 1: he wrote. That's the point of that of the conversation 476 00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:25,199 Speaker 1: with Paul McCartney. Appreciating nuance. That's what hooked me at 477 00:25:25,359 --> 00:25:28,880 Speaker 1: The type of the sub is appreciating nuance, and I'm like, oh, 478 00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:31,000 Speaker 1: that gets I'm done. I gotta read it now. The 479 00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:33,720 Speaker 1: difference between animal rights and animal welfare. Now, this goes 480 00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:37,480 Speaker 1: back to our conversation with Paul Sheer, but it's it's 481 00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:42,520 Speaker 1: interesting to think of hunters possibly as animal where welfarrests 482 00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:48,199 Speaker 1: rather than um. The opposition is animal rights folks, and 483 00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:51,399 Speaker 1: so in this in this article, Paul sets it up 484 00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:55,399 Speaker 1: this way. He quotes David Peterson from Heart's Blood, a 485 00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:59,159 Speaker 1: wonderful book if you haven't read it. Animal welfare quote 486 00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:02,679 Speaker 1: supports the humane treatment and responsible care of animals that 487 00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:08,760 Speaker 1: ensures comfort and freedom from unnecessary pain and suffering. By contrast, 488 00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:12,840 Speaker 1: the animal rights movement dictates that the use of animals 489 00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:16,920 Speaker 1: by any human for any purpose is wrong. So as 490 00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:19,800 Speaker 1: we go through this conversation with Paul McCarney, you'll you'll 491 00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:22,280 Speaker 1: want to key in on that. We get get to 492 00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:24,200 Speaker 1: that down the road in the conversation. But that's that's 493 00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:26,560 Speaker 1: really kind of the point that I wanted to get 494 00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:29,640 Speaker 1: to as we move away from you know, the Paul 495 00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:32,160 Speaker 1: but Sheer conversation last year and start to think about 496 00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:36,760 Speaker 1: this critically. The other point um from that Paul Bisher 497 00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:40,200 Speaker 1: episode that came up was was large scale agriculture, plant 498 00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:44,800 Speaker 1: based agriculture, and how much death can be applied to 499 00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:47,840 Speaker 1: that actual activity. Now, that is a hard thing to 500 00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:50,640 Speaker 1: pin down on a large scale. On a macro scale, 501 00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:53,160 Speaker 1: it might it might be easier on a micro scale. 502 00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:57,760 Speaker 1: Certainly when you're talking about this tangential or empirical evidence, 503 00:26:57,800 --> 00:26:59,920 Speaker 1: we can find a lot I've seen a lot of 504 00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:04,560 Speaker 1: vultures hovering over combines and harvesters across the Midwestern in 505 00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:08,720 Speaker 1: my travel, So we can put the empirical evidence around 506 00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:13,199 Speaker 1: the fact that large scale agriculture, planned variety kills a 507 00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:15,520 Speaker 1: lot of things. They're just not the things were used 508 00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:18,240 Speaker 1: to see and die. So but we've had what really 509 00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:20,720 Speaker 1: kicked all of this offer me was a fellow named 510 00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:24,000 Speaker 1: Jack Henry reached out to me online and he is 511 00:27:24,280 --> 00:27:29,840 Speaker 1: a biological science student at California Polytech San Luis Obispo 512 00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:35,040 Speaker 1: SO at California Biology student, and he does some of 513 00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:39,439 Speaker 1: this work for a living. He's he recently graduated. He 514 00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:42,720 Speaker 1: says this summer and into December that he worked at 515 00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:48,160 Speaker 1: a biological consulting firm in Bakersfield, California, which performed biota 516 00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:53,120 Speaker 1: surveys pre construction surveys on some of these large scale farms. 517 00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:56,160 Speaker 1: And although he said he's by no means an expert, 518 00:27:56,200 --> 00:27:58,760 Speaker 1: he said, it gave me a solemn understanding the mortality 519 00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:03,760 Speaker 1: that results from construct and agricultural efforts. Eventually, I quit 520 00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:06,160 Speaker 1: this job due to some ethical concerns of the biological 521 00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:08,920 Speaker 1: consulting industry in which we were recouraged to break the 522 00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:13,760 Speaker 1: law to make developers happy during monitoring of endangered threatened species. 523 00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:17,920 Speaker 1: That's not good. But then he goes on to explain 524 00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:20,439 Speaker 1: what he learned there. He says, whenever you have a 525 00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:23,480 Speaker 1: plot of land, almost anywhere you can think of, there's 526 00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:27,520 Speaker 1: a sensitive micro climate of animals living underground. I'll try 527 00:28:27,560 --> 00:28:30,960 Speaker 1: to simplify some of these animals to specific population densities, 528 00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:36,800 Speaker 1: to individual acres. Voles, moles, gophers, kangaroo, rats, mice, rats, fence, lizards, snakes, 529 00:28:37,080 --> 00:28:40,840 Speaker 1: and much more may lay underground at any point. For example, 530 00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:44,240 Speaker 1: one acre of land may contain up to eight to 531 00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:49,480 Speaker 1: twenty individual pocket gophers. A typical meadow vole populations are 532 00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:53,360 Speaker 1: regularly between fifteen to forty five per acre in old 533 00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:58,480 Speaker 1: field habitat. Deer mice population densities regularly occur up to 534 00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:01,960 Speaker 1: fifteen mice per acre, and according to Fish and Wildlife Service, 535 00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:05,760 Speaker 1: the agency responsible for listing Threatening and dangerous species, estimates 536 00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:09,760 Speaker 1: kangaroo rat densities in some grasslands from two point five 537 00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:14,720 Speaker 1: to two point seven five individuals per acre. Reptiles, on 538 00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:17,240 Speaker 1: the other hand, might even be harder to qualify because 539 00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:20,240 Speaker 1: their metal metal box needs and the detection probability involved 540 00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:24,960 Speaker 1: with detect detecting accurate densities are more rare. It's really 541 00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:27,920 Speaker 1: really hard, he says, to visualize these densities because so 542 00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:32,440 Speaker 1: many of these species are nocturnal. Unfortunately, people care much 543 00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:36,320 Speaker 1: less about these individuals since they are not charismatic megafauna 544 00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:39,320 Speaker 1: that opponents of a carnivore diet care about. It's much 545 00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:42,800 Speaker 1: easier for people to care about large animals like elk 546 00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:46,800 Speaker 1: or deer. Prior to construction of a building or conversion 547 00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:49,520 Speaker 1: of a lot to agriculture, a field will be disc 548 00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:53,200 Speaker 1: during disking, animals in a given area do not flee. 549 00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:57,240 Speaker 1: Usually generally, the noise of attractor performing the disking will 550 00:29:57,320 --> 00:30:00,360 Speaker 1: drive rodents back into their burrows, where they eight will 551 00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:04,400 Speaker 1: be inevitably killed. The aforementioned animals will be deleted from 552 00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:07,479 Speaker 1: the landscape, either by the blunt force that occurs by 553 00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:12,040 Speaker 1: suffocation and collapse burrows. It doesn't take a mathematicition to 554 00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:15,520 Speaker 1: quantify the death per acre individual animals into the hundreds 555 00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:18,200 Speaker 1: or thousands. Of course, that brings us to the ethical 556 00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:22,600 Speaker 1: considerations of whether or not large charismatic animals are worth 557 00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:25,440 Speaker 1: more in the eyes of vegetarians or vegans than the 558 00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:29,280 Speaker 1: sheer number of small animals slaughtered, many of which may 559 00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:32,320 Speaker 1: be classified as protected by the Fish and Wildlife Service. 560 00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:36,080 Speaker 1: There's also a dangerous chain of events that occurs when 561 00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:39,040 Speaker 1: all life is simply deleted from the landscape. For example, 562 00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:42,840 Speaker 1: many eagles, hawks, falcons, coyotes, foxes, weasels that relied on 563 00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:45,120 Speaker 1: this source of food have now lost an important part 564 00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:48,680 Speaker 1: of their diet and are now displaced. Some raptors may 565 00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:51,840 Speaker 1: make do and predate on the land, but most will 566 00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:54,360 Speaker 1: never be the same. He goes on to say, I 567 00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:57,080 Speaker 1: think it's important to come to terms with mortality involved 568 00:30:57,080 --> 00:31:00,800 Speaker 1: with development, agriculture and even livestock, because of course livestock 569 00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:04,280 Speaker 1: feed requires agriculture, and my position, it's hard to come 570 00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:07,120 Speaker 1: to any conclusion other than that hunting being the most 571 00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:11,080 Speaker 1: ethical choice people may make to do the calorie content 572 00:31:11,320 --> 00:31:14,840 Speaker 1: equivalent per individual. Although I haven't had the chance to 573 00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:18,760 Speaker 1: hunt during the Corona pandemic, your podcast has encouraged me 574 00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:21,720 Speaker 1: for my close friends to get our hunter education classes 575 00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:25,720 Speaker 1: done and get our hunting licenses, which we all have now. Unfortunately, 576 00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:27,640 Speaker 1: it's really hard to scale up. Hunting is a feasible 577 00:31:27,680 --> 00:31:31,000 Speaker 1: way for the majority of American to get fed, but 578 00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:35,040 Speaker 1: it's important to understand the course of agriculture and livestock. 579 00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:37,600 Speaker 1: At the same time, it casts a great shadow of 580 00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:41,160 Speaker 1: doubt over the ethics of veganism versus the ethics of 581 00:31:41,240 --> 00:31:44,240 Speaker 1: eating meat. I know that was very long, but thank 582 00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:48,160 Speaker 1: you Jack Henry for that. What Jack is sharing really 583 00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:51,360 Speaker 1: it has some concretion to it has some data and 584 00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:54,960 Speaker 1: really also personal experience as to how much death goes 585 00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:57,680 Speaker 1: into large scale agriculture, and that was really the crust 586 00:31:57,720 --> 00:31:59,600 Speaker 1: of the situation. And Paul but Sheer, the other crux 587 00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:02,400 Speaker 1: of it is what we just talked about animal writs 588 00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:05,600 Speaker 1: an animal welfare. So we're gonna get you in to 589 00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:19,040 Speaker 1: this conversation with Paul McCartney right now in JI, Paul, 590 00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:22,840 Speaker 1: how are you, sir? Doing very well? How are you good? 591 00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:26,240 Speaker 1: I cannot complain. I wanted to first address something with 592 00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:29,160 Speaker 1: you that we hadn't talked about previously. When I try 593 00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:33,440 Speaker 1: to google your name, Google really wants me to watch 594 00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:36,040 Speaker 1: Paul McCartney videos and listen to man. I could do 595 00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:39,720 Speaker 1: anything I want, and I'm anonymous on the internet. Yeah, 596 00:32:39,840 --> 00:32:42,239 Speaker 1: there's there's no way to find you. I put like 597 00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:46,320 Speaker 1: Paul McCartney hunting and conservation, and it was like, did 598 00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:49,719 Speaker 1: you mean Paul McCartney. Well, and what's great about that 599 00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:52,920 Speaker 1: is the kind of stuff that comes up. You're like, oh, 600 00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:55,840 Speaker 1: hell no, no, no, I didn't mean that because he uh, 601 00:32:56,280 --> 00:32:58,280 Speaker 1: we do not share Paul McCartney and I do not 602 00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:02,400 Speaker 1: share similar perspectives on hunting and especially It's sort of 603 00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:05,680 Speaker 1: funny because I did my I studied seals for my 604 00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:07,520 Speaker 1: PhD and spent a lot of time in the North 605 00:33:08,040 --> 00:33:11,400 Speaker 1: studying and well eating and hunting seals. So it's it's 606 00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:14,040 Speaker 1: actually it was a good icebreaker when I would get 607 00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:16,480 Speaker 1: to communities and introduce myself and kind of go, no, 608 00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:18,400 Speaker 1: not that one, not that one. He'd be here for 609 00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:21,280 Speaker 1: a different reason. Yea. But yeah, if you if you 610 00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:25,040 Speaker 1: put in Paul McCartney hunting, it comes up with all 611 00:33:25,120 --> 00:33:32,360 Speaker 1: of the anti hunting quotes from Paul McCartney. Able to compete. Yeah, 612 00:33:32,680 --> 00:33:34,920 Speaker 1: until then, you're just kind of in a weird internet 613 00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:38,040 Speaker 1: search paradox, which actually probably benefits you. As you mentioned there, 614 00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:42,800 Speaker 1: it's good. I actually don't mind being well, tell people 615 00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:45,720 Speaker 1: a little bit about your background. I already already learned 616 00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:47,959 Speaker 1: something I didn't know about that your PhD work with 617 00:33:48,440 --> 00:33:51,560 Speaker 1: seals and seal hunting. But give people, uh a little 618 00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:53,040 Speaker 1: bit of the background where you grew up, how you 619 00:33:53,080 --> 00:33:55,200 Speaker 1: got into this and and you know how you got 620 00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:58,040 Speaker 1: into more of the scholarly work and writing and and 621 00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:01,720 Speaker 1: things that you do. Right now. Yeah, so cut me 622 00:34:01,760 --> 00:34:04,120 Speaker 1: off when I'm when I'm going on too long, Let 623 00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:06,200 Speaker 1: me just tell you that was like an eight part question. 624 00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:10,839 Speaker 1: Just start at the beginning. We'll work from there. So, 625 00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:14,880 Speaker 1: um yeah, So I grew up in Ontario, just outside Toronto, 626 00:34:15,239 --> 00:34:19,840 Speaker 1: um so you know, suburbia. Um So, and this is 627 00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:21,759 Speaker 1: I'll kind of dropped this as a bit of an 628 00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:24,799 Speaker 1: maybe easter to the later conversation, but definitely did. I 629 00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:26,799 Speaker 1: did not grow up in a hunting household. No one 630 00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:28,799 Speaker 1: I no one I knew hunted except for you know, 631 00:34:29,160 --> 00:34:34,200 Speaker 1: one person at school UM, and had no exposure to it. 632 00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:38,239 Speaker 1: I mean spend a lot of time outdoors UM and 633 00:34:38,560 --> 00:34:41,799 Speaker 1: got into you know, backcountry canoe tripping and hiking and 634 00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:44,640 Speaker 1: things like that, but um, never with a gun in 635 00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:50,480 Speaker 1: my hand. UM. And sort of came to as I 636 00:34:50,520 --> 00:34:54,920 Speaker 1: was going through university, came to uh studying and being 637 00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:58,040 Speaker 1: being very really directly involved in a lot of environmental 638 00:34:58,040 --> 00:35:03,280 Speaker 1: movements and environmental UM issues UM So things around resource 639 00:35:03,320 --> 00:35:09,440 Speaker 1: extraction UM and major hydro electric dams and sort of 640 00:35:10,040 --> 00:35:15,080 Speaker 1: movements and issues like that. UM and sort of started 641 00:35:15,080 --> 00:35:20,479 Speaker 1: studying ecology and wildlife science and biology UM. And that's 642 00:35:20,520 --> 00:35:23,680 Speaker 1: what really brought me around to the hunting world. I 643 00:35:23,719 --> 00:35:26,520 Speaker 1: mean I had fished growing up, UM, but never but 644 00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:31,839 Speaker 1: never put it together as as a type of UM 645 00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:35,360 Speaker 1: that as a type of activity that was part of um, 646 00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:38,600 Speaker 1: you know, consumption and and kind of hunting and angling. 647 00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:41,279 Speaker 1: It was just you know, kind of going fishing sort 648 00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:45,080 Speaker 1: of thing. M UM. So as I started to really 649 00:35:45,120 --> 00:35:47,000 Speaker 1: I So I really kind of came to hunting and 650 00:35:47,320 --> 00:35:51,120 Speaker 1: sort of through a lot of the academic and post 651 00:35:51,120 --> 00:35:53,719 Speaker 1: secondary work I was doing UM and had a couple 652 00:35:53,719 --> 00:35:58,240 Speaker 1: of really great mentors at the university who who hunted 653 00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:01,200 Speaker 1: and sort of I mean into it that way and 654 00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:04,799 Speaker 1: from the sense of really wanting to get a more 655 00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:07,239 Speaker 1: personal understanding and connection with some of the stuff I 656 00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:11,719 Speaker 1: was studying UM and connect to it on on you know, 657 00:36:11,920 --> 00:36:14,480 Speaker 1: on a different level. When I say connected, I mean 658 00:36:14,520 --> 00:36:17,560 Speaker 1: you know, collegy and natural processes and wildlife and things. 659 00:36:17,560 --> 00:36:20,320 Speaker 1: So that's so that was what really, UM, what was 660 00:36:20,360 --> 00:36:22,399 Speaker 1: really what brought me to it is it started out 661 00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:24,239 Speaker 1: as a as a way to kind of put into 662 00:36:24,239 --> 00:36:29,120 Speaker 1: practice for myself personally what had really solidified as a 663 00:36:29,120 --> 00:36:34,480 Speaker 1: as a moral and ethical and kind of academic passion. UM. Yeah. 664 00:36:34,640 --> 00:36:36,160 Speaker 1: So and then and then then that's that led me 665 00:36:36,200 --> 00:36:38,960 Speaker 1: to it, UM to a PhD on UM and I 666 00:36:39,040 --> 00:36:41,680 Speaker 1: and I, you know, I worked with a really great 667 00:36:42,480 --> 00:36:45,439 Speaker 1: guy at York University studies polar bears and seals UM, 668 00:36:45,560 --> 00:36:47,799 Speaker 1: and so that was sort of a perfect world for 669 00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:52,080 Speaker 1: me to be in because UM, it was hunting, hunting 670 00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:56,080 Speaker 1: and fishing and biology in that sense were inseparable. Um, 671 00:36:56,640 --> 00:36:58,760 Speaker 1: they were all part of something, part of it together. 672 00:36:58,880 --> 00:37:02,319 Speaker 1: So UM was super I was really drawn to that. Yeah, 673 00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:04,719 Speaker 1: I mean I think of your writing. You know, what 674 00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:06,680 Speaker 1: brought me to to want to chat with you was 675 00:37:07,040 --> 00:37:09,880 Speaker 1: some of the writings of yours that I've read. You 676 00:37:09,880 --> 00:37:12,600 Speaker 1: don't necessarily remember where I was keyed onto it, but 677 00:37:12,680 --> 00:37:16,000 Speaker 1: I was, and I started reading and you could just tell, um, 678 00:37:16,120 --> 00:37:19,160 Speaker 1: I love to just explore different people's perspectives and approaches 679 00:37:19,200 --> 00:37:21,759 Speaker 1: and connections with hunting, and I could tell yours was 680 00:37:22,719 --> 00:37:25,759 Speaker 1: you know, at least maybe had its origins in academia, 681 00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:29,040 Speaker 1: and it kind of have kind of splintered out into 682 00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:32,520 Speaker 1: different subject matter in different ways to approach things. But 683 00:37:33,080 --> 00:37:35,160 Speaker 1: you know, a lot of these tough topics we get 684 00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:39,840 Speaker 1: into are are a lot easier to understand when they're taking, 685 00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:45,440 Speaker 1: you know, from an academic perspective or broken down using 686 00:37:45,719 --> 00:37:48,640 Speaker 1: no dog about no emotion, just trying to get to 687 00:37:48,680 --> 00:37:50,319 Speaker 1: the heart of the matter. So I did. I did 688 00:37:50,360 --> 00:37:53,200 Speaker 1: appreciate I think that last point, like getting to the 689 00:37:53,200 --> 00:37:54,600 Speaker 1: heart of the matter. I think some of the tough 690 00:37:54,640 --> 00:37:59,239 Speaker 1: topics that we've really delved into on this show. Um, 691 00:38:00,280 --> 00:38:02,040 Speaker 1: You're writing kind of gets to the heart of them 692 00:38:02,440 --> 00:38:04,560 Speaker 1: in a really pragmatic way. So I give you that. 693 00:38:04,600 --> 00:38:08,000 Speaker 1: I guess that to to butter you up right right out. Okay, man, Well, 694 00:38:08,040 --> 00:38:10,840 Speaker 1: thank you, and I mean that was I think that 695 00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:15,719 Speaker 1: was I appreciate that because I think I'm would I'm 696 00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:20,200 Speaker 1: drawn to writing much more around um. I mean, I 697 00:38:20,280 --> 00:38:23,840 Speaker 1: like absolutely and fascinated by the scientific topics and academic 698 00:38:23,920 --> 00:38:28,680 Speaker 1: kind of digging and around these things. But putting it 699 00:38:28,719 --> 00:38:30,680 Speaker 1: into him when we were talking about this earlier, putting 700 00:38:30,680 --> 00:38:33,040 Speaker 1: it into a way that is written for a more 701 00:38:33,120 --> 00:38:35,960 Speaker 1: kind of popular consumption and discussion is what really interests me. 702 00:38:36,000 --> 00:38:37,640 Speaker 1: And that's where you know, we were talking about valarious 703 00:38:37,640 --> 00:38:41,160 Speaker 1: guys who took his science writing and kind of deliberately 704 00:38:42,480 --> 00:38:45,600 Speaker 1: tried to force himself to to write for a more 705 00:38:45,600 --> 00:38:48,600 Speaker 1: popular audience. And I think that it was absolute success. 706 00:38:48,600 --> 00:38:50,640 Speaker 1: So it's people like that that that really kind of 707 00:38:50,719 --> 00:38:52,160 Speaker 1: I go, you know, there is a way to do this. 708 00:38:52,160 --> 00:38:55,320 Speaker 1: There is a way to like take a real academic 709 00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:59,200 Speaker 1: obsession but make it hopefully something that is useful. Yeah, 710 00:38:59,239 --> 00:39:04,279 Speaker 1: And an academic world, I mean in conservation really embodies 711 00:39:04,320 --> 00:39:05,600 Speaker 1: that in a lot of ways, right. I Mean I 712 00:39:05,640 --> 00:39:07,960 Speaker 1: was read an article that I just pulled up that 713 00:39:08,040 --> 00:39:10,239 Speaker 1: you that I had read and you led me back 714 00:39:10,280 --> 00:39:12,360 Speaker 1: to that was it's called the companies we keep politics 715 00:39:12,400 --> 00:39:15,799 Speaker 1: and inclusion and hunting. And I know you know are 716 00:39:15,880 --> 00:39:19,399 Speaker 1: at least aware of Lydia and Jimmy from Hunters of Color. 717 00:39:20,040 --> 00:39:22,319 Speaker 1: You know, we had them on last week and went 718 00:39:22,560 --> 00:39:24,920 Speaker 1: went through what they do and what they believe is 719 00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:29,200 Speaker 1: kind of like the pathway to reel and lasting diversity. 720 00:39:30,040 --> 00:39:31,880 Speaker 1: Um and you touched on that in this article a 721 00:39:31,920 --> 00:39:33,520 Speaker 1: little bit. But I think it's also a crossroads of 722 00:39:33,600 --> 00:39:37,440 Speaker 1: what you just mentioned where we're able to then take 723 00:39:37,480 --> 00:39:40,560 Speaker 1: a look at at hunting and I'll just read you 724 00:39:40,600 --> 00:39:42,919 Speaker 1: a little bit of what you what's your road back 725 00:39:42,920 --> 00:39:46,560 Speaker 1: in September. Hunting is wonderfully complex. It is a social 726 00:39:46,600 --> 00:39:49,680 Speaker 1: activity that brings us together with friends and family. Hunting 727 00:39:49,760 --> 00:39:54,000 Speaker 1: is also deeply embedded in conservation politics. I think that 728 00:39:54,040 --> 00:39:57,160 Speaker 1: point right there is is kind of how that academia 729 00:39:57,719 --> 00:39:59,839 Speaker 1: and even the social aspects of hunting kind of cons 730 00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:02,319 Speaker 1: vation needs all that stuff to work, right. I mean, 731 00:40:02,360 --> 00:40:06,839 Speaker 1: it really needs um each approach and it needs so 732 00:40:06,920 --> 00:40:09,000 Speaker 1: I think where you come in like a good understanding 733 00:40:09,040 --> 00:40:12,040 Speaker 1: of the two things of how the scientific and academic 734 00:40:12,040 --> 00:40:14,800 Speaker 1: studies work and how that relates to the more social 735 00:40:15,360 --> 00:40:18,320 Speaker 1: and even political side of things. Yeah, I totally agree, 736 00:40:18,440 --> 00:40:22,680 Speaker 1: And um, you know that's that piece was something that 737 00:40:22,719 --> 00:40:24,799 Speaker 1: I had that had been the idea had been sort 738 00:40:24,800 --> 00:40:28,239 Speaker 1: of just sitting in my head since, you know, since 739 00:40:28,280 --> 00:40:30,160 Speaker 1: I started hunting, But I did not think of it 740 00:40:30,239 --> 00:40:34,160 Speaker 1: as a as a topic deliberately to write about, because 741 00:40:34,200 --> 00:40:36,080 Speaker 1: I know, I mentioned I kind of came to hunting 742 00:40:36,080 --> 00:40:39,880 Speaker 1: through some of my own like being involved in environmental 743 00:40:39,920 --> 00:40:43,279 Speaker 1: movements and things, and before that, I was I grew 744 00:40:43,360 --> 00:40:46,240 Speaker 1: up like this thing, like you know, in the Toronto 745 00:40:46,280 --> 00:40:50,280 Speaker 1: punk rock scene, and that scene is completely embedded in 746 00:40:50,280 --> 00:40:55,200 Speaker 1: in you know, movements around social justice. So that was 747 00:40:55,239 --> 00:40:57,000 Speaker 1: where I kind of came from, was that world. So 748 00:40:57,000 --> 00:40:59,640 Speaker 1: when I came to hunting, it was really about, um, 749 00:40:59,640 --> 00:41:04,360 Speaker 1: those two worlds around social justice and political justice and 750 00:41:04,440 --> 00:41:07,120 Speaker 1: environmental justice and then bring it into hunting was sort 751 00:41:07,160 --> 00:41:10,759 Speaker 1: of a seamless transition for me, and they've always been 752 00:41:12,280 --> 00:41:15,640 Speaker 1: together in my head, but I didn't I hadn't sort 753 00:41:15,640 --> 00:41:18,560 Speaker 1: of found a way to express them that way. And 754 00:41:18,600 --> 00:41:20,000 Speaker 1: one of the and one of the ways that I 755 00:41:20,120 --> 00:41:23,160 Speaker 1: that I started to think about was was in the 756 00:41:23,200 --> 00:41:25,960 Speaker 1: same way that we that I think about companies and 757 00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:28,200 Speaker 1: purchases and that I make in my everyday life, which is, 758 00:41:28,239 --> 00:41:31,480 Speaker 1: what are the companies that I'm wearing and purchasing and supporting, 759 00:41:32,120 --> 00:41:34,440 Speaker 1: what are the values that they promote? And what are 760 00:41:34,480 --> 00:41:39,000 Speaker 1: they doing to make the hunting world um better, more 761 00:41:39,000 --> 00:41:41,960 Speaker 1: and more just um and And so I you know, 762 00:41:42,040 --> 00:41:44,879 Speaker 1: I came to and I didn't really I didn't really 763 00:41:44,920 --> 00:41:46,640 Speaker 1: think that there were a lot to be honest, and 764 00:41:46,680 --> 00:41:49,799 Speaker 1: I came. I came to find companies like Hunt to 765 00:41:49,840 --> 00:41:53,239 Speaker 1: Eat for example, who um, in my mind, are just 766 00:41:53,320 --> 00:41:55,640 Speaker 1: are sort of forging the way in that way and 767 00:41:55,960 --> 00:42:02,040 Speaker 1: bringing having these discussions and really meaningfully and directly saying, 768 00:42:03,280 --> 00:42:05,560 Speaker 1: you know, hunting is part of all these other discussions. 769 00:42:05,560 --> 00:42:07,520 Speaker 1: It's embedded in these and vice versa, and we need 770 00:42:07,560 --> 00:42:09,239 Speaker 1: to we need to explore them, and we need to 771 00:42:09,280 --> 00:42:11,920 Speaker 1: have those conversations and and do what we can. And 772 00:42:11,960 --> 00:42:14,480 Speaker 1: so that was where that one came from, was I 773 00:42:14,520 --> 00:42:16,480 Speaker 1: kind of finally I sort of found a company then 774 00:42:16,480 --> 00:42:20,839 Speaker 1: that thought, well, you know they are doing that. So yeah, yeah, yeah, 775 00:42:20,880 --> 00:42:23,000 Speaker 1: I mean I think you're right in here. We are actively, 776 00:42:23,440 --> 00:42:27,200 Speaker 1: we are active on important conservation issues while allowing passive 777 00:42:27,440 --> 00:42:31,440 Speaker 1: passificity around social issues. Right, we are passive in the 778 00:42:31,480 --> 00:42:34,480 Speaker 1: social sense and active in the conservation sense. But again 779 00:42:34,480 --> 00:42:37,799 Speaker 1: they're connected. Um and we I said last episode that 780 00:42:37,840 --> 00:42:40,120 Speaker 1: when it comes to you know, most people hear the 781 00:42:40,120 --> 00:42:42,319 Speaker 1: word social justice these days and they go running for 782 00:42:42,320 --> 00:42:45,960 Speaker 1: the hills or they have up baked in thought that 783 00:42:46,600 --> 00:42:50,600 Speaker 1: you know, sometimes it becomes this, um, you know, very 784 00:42:50,680 --> 00:42:53,600 Speaker 1: imperiled way of seeing the world. But I don't, I 785 00:42:53,600 --> 00:42:56,920 Speaker 1: don't necessarily look at it that. I think it's pretty simple, um, 786 00:42:57,000 --> 00:43:00,480 Speaker 1: that what you said is true. That are social The 787 00:43:00,520 --> 00:43:04,799 Speaker 1: way we socially relate to hunting, our society and both 788 00:43:04,800 --> 00:43:07,560 Speaker 1: how we relate to each other can be improved and 789 00:43:07,600 --> 00:43:09,760 Speaker 1: can be communicated in the same way as to relate 790 00:43:09,800 --> 00:43:13,480 Speaker 1: to the ecosystems and habitats and manage wildlife. So it's 791 00:43:14,080 --> 00:43:15,759 Speaker 1: those things have to be connected, right, I mean you 792 00:43:15,760 --> 00:43:18,040 Speaker 1: feel like they're you know, where I came from was 793 00:43:18,080 --> 00:43:21,600 Speaker 1: different than you. Um, those things were never connected until 794 00:43:21,640 --> 00:43:25,160 Speaker 1: I actively connected them myself. Um. And I think a 795 00:43:25,200 --> 00:43:28,080 Speaker 1: lot of people are hungry for to just explore that 796 00:43:28,160 --> 00:43:30,880 Speaker 1: where it hasn't been explored in the past. Yeah, I 797 00:43:30,880 --> 00:43:33,040 Speaker 1: think so too, And I think I think in a 798 00:43:33,040 --> 00:43:35,279 Speaker 1: lot of cases what it is also is a m 799 00:43:36,000 --> 00:43:39,400 Speaker 1: It's it's sort of pulling the covers back on some 800 00:43:39,520 --> 00:43:43,160 Speaker 1: of the narratives that we're um, that are that are 801 00:43:43,200 --> 00:43:46,640 Speaker 1: popular in the hunting conservation world and seeing that there 802 00:43:46,640 --> 00:43:50,200 Speaker 1: are that there are historical corners of this narrative and 803 00:43:50,280 --> 00:43:53,719 Speaker 1: this history of hunting that in which these things have 804 00:43:53,800 --> 00:43:57,239 Speaker 1: always existed where um, you know, I think I talked 805 00:43:57,239 --> 00:44:00,080 Speaker 1: about in that one that you know, we like they 806 00:44:00,120 --> 00:44:03,840 Speaker 1: wouldn't have the water fowl populations we do today without 807 00:44:03,880 --> 00:44:09,320 Speaker 1: the without women activists at that time, UM, and um, 808 00:44:09,360 --> 00:44:11,319 Speaker 1: you know, we we wouldn't have I mean, people can 809 00:44:11,400 --> 00:44:14,000 Speaker 1: sort of disagree on the political movements that are going on, 810 00:44:14,120 --> 00:44:17,200 Speaker 1: but we wouldn't know and think the way we do 811 00:44:17,239 --> 00:44:19,480 Speaker 1: in a lot of cases about about certain environmental and 812 00:44:19,520 --> 00:44:23,880 Speaker 1: conservation issues and things without um, many indigenous leaders and 813 00:44:24,120 --> 00:44:27,000 Speaker 1: thinkers throughout history. UM. And so I think that these 814 00:44:27,040 --> 00:44:31,200 Speaker 1: things have been there, but we you know, UM, they 815 00:44:31,480 --> 00:44:34,440 Speaker 1: kind of get missed, and in some cases they kind 816 00:44:34,440 --> 00:44:37,719 Speaker 1: of they get deliberately missed. UM. But yeah, I know 817 00:44:37,760 --> 00:44:40,000 Speaker 1: I agree, people kind of go running for the hills 818 00:44:40,000 --> 00:44:43,080 Speaker 1: and I and I and that's something that um that 819 00:44:43,200 --> 00:44:46,440 Speaker 1: I also tried to kind of confront and challenge is 820 00:44:46,840 --> 00:44:51,120 Speaker 1: is is the kind of the cliches and stereotypes within 821 00:44:51,160 --> 00:44:54,200 Speaker 1: the hunting community that I think we do more damage 822 00:44:54,239 --> 00:44:59,400 Speaker 1: to ourselves with UM then then anti hunters could ever 823 00:44:59,440 --> 00:45:02,040 Speaker 1: do to us. Where we we divide and we we put, 824 00:45:02,360 --> 00:45:05,800 Speaker 1: we categorize, and we compartmentalize our lives and our thinking, 825 00:45:05,840 --> 00:45:10,759 Speaker 1: and we kind of create more division within UM. Yeah, 826 00:45:11,120 --> 00:45:12,640 Speaker 1: I say that all the time. And when I get 827 00:45:12,640 --> 00:45:16,080 Speaker 1: into conversation with people about anti hunting, and we're gonna 828 00:45:16,080 --> 00:45:18,560 Speaker 1: we're gonna break into a conversation here, We're gonna go 829 00:45:18,640 --> 00:45:20,719 Speaker 1: as deep as we possibly can go on animal rights 830 00:45:20,719 --> 00:45:25,400 Speaker 1: and here in a minute. But part of what people 831 00:45:25,440 --> 00:45:27,880 Speaker 1: often say to me is that it's it's this anti 832 00:45:27,960 --> 00:45:30,680 Speaker 1: hunter you must defend yourself against. It's it's this like 833 00:45:30,880 --> 00:45:33,719 Speaker 1: you need to build a partition between you and them. 834 00:45:33,760 --> 00:45:38,480 Speaker 1: And I often say I get less divisive commentary from 835 00:45:38,480 --> 00:45:43,160 Speaker 1: anti hunters than I do from hunters. It's almost it's 836 00:45:43,200 --> 00:45:48,319 Speaker 1: like one, if I'm being honest, I get yeah, absolutely, man, 837 00:45:48,360 --> 00:45:52,279 Speaker 1: I get um. I get that, I get called all 838 00:45:52,360 --> 00:45:54,840 Speaker 1: kinds of things about about being a lefty and a 839 00:45:55,680 --> 00:45:57,799 Speaker 1: social justice war and all of that stuff, And it's 840 00:45:57,840 --> 00:46:01,520 Speaker 1: it's it's people it's from in the hunting community. Um 841 00:46:02,360 --> 00:46:05,120 Speaker 1: and uh, And I say, like, you know, you're I 842 00:46:05,160 --> 00:46:08,160 Speaker 1: am being You're accusing me what of being willing to 843 00:46:08,160 --> 00:46:11,000 Speaker 1: think about these things and being willing to do into them? 844 00:46:11,000 --> 00:46:13,200 Speaker 1: And I mean guilty? Then you know, yeah, me too. 845 00:46:13,280 --> 00:46:15,160 Speaker 1: That's that's a good way to put it. I think 846 00:46:15,160 --> 00:46:17,560 Speaker 1: a lot of people listening hopefully can agree that, like 847 00:46:17,600 --> 00:46:20,279 Speaker 1: if it's if willingness to look at these things objectively 848 00:46:20,320 --> 00:46:22,560 Speaker 1: and then also look at him personally to be like, 849 00:46:22,600 --> 00:46:24,880 Speaker 1: you know, what do I believe? Well? But what I 850 00:46:24,960 --> 00:46:28,640 Speaker 1: what do I think it objectively is good for the community? Um, 851 00:46:28,680 --> 00:46:31,880 Speaker 1: I think that those two things are are integraling and 852 00:46:32,120 --> 00:46:35,040 Speaker 1: to not be too you know, to avert about this 853 00:46:36,080 --> 00:46:39,080 Speaker 1: each You have some examples in this article about companies 854 00:46:39,480 --> 00:46:42,799 Speaker 1: and how they express their value systems. Right, So if 855 00:46:42,800 --> 00:46:45,400 Speaker 1: you were to if you were to take justice, environmental justice, 856 00:46:45,400 --> 00:46:50,319 Speaker 1: social justice, the hunting community does this and signals this 857 00:46:50,400 --> 00:46:54,160 Speaker 1: in many ways. You give examples of for example to you, right, 858 00:46:54,200 --> 00:46:56,720 Speaker 1: and they they have they put sheet back on the mountain, 859 00:46:57,200 --> 00:46:58,600 Speaker 1: and do you think when they put sheet back on 860 00:46:58,640 --> 00:47:00,440 Speaker 1: the mountain they don't talk about that is like a 861 00:47:00,520 --> 00:47:02,680 Speaker 1: part of the shared set of values that we have 862 00:47:03,200 --> 00:47:07,520 Speaker 1: in the hunting community. UM First Light talks about sporting heritage, 863 00:47:07,520 --> 00:47:11,600 Speaker 1: they talk about UM public lands, they talk about UH, 864 00:47:11,640 --> 00:47:14,240 Speaker 1: they have a women's line. You know. All these companies, 865 00:47:14,239 --> 00:47:16,560 Speaker 1: Sitka they do the same thing. They have a grant 866 00:47:16,680 --> 00:47:20,520 Speaker 1: system for the outdoors where they talk about funding really 867 00:47:20,520 --> 00:47:23,680 Speaker 1: important habitat work and ecosystem work and things of that nature. 868 00:47:24,200 --> 00:47:27,480 Speaker 1: And so exactly all these companies are taking part in 869 00:47:27,640 --> 00:47:30,600 Speaker 1: some sort of value based activity that we can all 870 00:47:30,640 --> 00:47:34,600 Speaker 1: agree on. And yeah, and that's exactly, and I think 871 00:47:34,600 --> 00:47:37,840 Speaker 1: it's that's then that's where I kind of then go, Okay, 872 00:47:37,840 --> 00:47:40,640 Speaker 1: now what's the next step. And I you know, I 873 00:47:40,920 --> 00:47:46,120 Speaker 1: saw as an example, you know, UM, when Sitka came 874 00:47:46,160 --> 00:47:47,719 Speaker 1: out last year and said, you know that they that 875 00:47:47,800 --> 00:47:51,520 Speaker 1: they do not support UM, you know, opening out the 876 00:47:51,560 --> 00:47:54,120 Speaker 1: Arctic National Wildlife Refuge to drilling. You know, it was 877 00:47:54,160 --> 00:47:57,480 Speaker 1: like they're kind of that that was an environmental issue 878 00:47:57,520 --> 00:47:59,560 Speaker 1: for sure, but they knew full well that they were 879 00:47:59,560 --> 00:48:01,480 Speaker 1: going to be taken a lot of political heat from that, 880 00:48:01,680 --> 00:48:03,880 Speaker 1: you know. UM. And I saw and I kind of 881 00:48:03,880 --> 00:48:06,400 Speaker 1: mentioned it in there as well that I UM in 882 00:48:06,520 --> 00:48:10,880 Speaker 1: June when the continent really started to talk in a 883 00:48:11,000 --> 00:48:16,200 Speaker 1: very UM in in a really real way about racial justice. 884 00:48:16,239 --> 00:48:18,280 Speaker 1: And I and I sort of looked to the hunting 885 00:48:18,320 --> 00:48:20,480 Speaker 1: community and saw where do I see this leadership? And 886 00:48:20,760 --> 00:48:24,360 Speaker 1: I didn't own anything by hunt to Eat before then, Um, 887 00:48:24,400 --> 00:48:26,719 Speaker 1: and I bought a T shirt that day when I 888 00:48:26,760 --> 00:48:28,319 Speaker 1: when I saw them come out and say, you know, 889 00:48:28,719 --> 00:48:30,600 Speaker 1: we're gonna be We're doing better, We're going to do 890 00:48:30,640 --> 00:48:33,200 Speaker 1: better for this and and so yeah, exactly, I kind 891 00:48:33,200 --> 00:48:37,439 Speaker 1: of look um to to our community just to say, 892 00:48:37,480 --> 00:48:40,960 Speaker 1: you know, um, how are we going to infuse are 893 00:48:41,160 --> 00:48:43,799 Speaker 1: the things that we already know how to do because 894 00:48:43,840 --> 00:48:46,600 Speaker 1: we've been doing them for so long around wildlife and conservation, 895 00:48:47,719 --> 00:48:51,399 Speaker 1: how are we going to do those socially as well? Yeah? 896 00:48:51,600 --> 00:48:53,160 Speaker 1: And it's like I said, it's like the well has 897 00:48:53,200 --> 00:48:57,080 Speaker 1: been poisoned by our politics. But if you just say, 898 00:48:57,120 --> 00:48:59,200 Speaker 1: look at look at the look at the way that 899 00:48:59,719 --> 00:49:03,440 Speaker 1: people on social media, as hunters is influencers and companies 900 00:49:03,440 --> 00:49:06,440 Speaker 1: that are influential, like leading members of our community speak 901 00:49:06,520 --> 00:49:11,000 Speaker 1: about conservation and how to work in it and live 902 00:49:11,080 --> 00:49:14,879 Speaker 1: the life of it, um, you know, and and to 903 00:49:14,920 --> 00:49:18,280 Speaker 1: add to the experience of hunting through you know, making 904 00:49:18,280 --> 00:49:21,400 Speaker 1: sure there's healthy wildlife. I think it's it's as simple 905 00:49:22,360 --> 00:49:25,520 Speaker 1: as saying, we want to make a diverse you know, 906 00:49:25,640 --> 00:49:28,239 Speaker 1: we want to make this a diverse community with that 907 00:49:28,480 --> 00:49:32,520 Speaker 1: is inclusive and welcoming and understands that it needs that 908 00:49:32,640 --> 00:49:35,759 Speaker 1: to thrive because hunting, because I'm sure you probably agree, 909 00:49:35,760 --> 00:49:40,000 Speaker 1: and needs social acceptance to thrive, you know, just you know, 910 00:49:40,239 --> 00:49:44,239 Speaker 1: and social acceptance requires acceptance from lots of perspectives, communities 911 00:49:44,280 --> 00:49:48,160 Speaker 1: and races and creeds. So to me, it's just like 912 00:49:48,200 --> 00:49:50,120 Speaker 1: an objective thing. But I know you're just like me. 913 00:49:50,239 --> 00:49:53,719 Speaker 1: When I try to just make it objective, it becomes 914 00:49:54,040 --> 00:49:56,239 Speaker 1: it kind of gets a little bit pulled decoupled from 915 00:49:56,280 --> 00:49:58,880 Speaker 1: that when you get yeah, and it and it is objective. 916 00:49:58,920 --> 00:50:02,520 Speaker 1: But I also think, like nothing could be more personal 917 00:50:02,640 --> 00:50:05,120 Speaker 1: either than hunt than than hunting, And I think, so 918 00:50:05,160 --> 00:50:07,520 Speaker 1: I think, and this is then, this is why, this 919 00:50:07,600 --> 00:50:09,680 Speaker 1: is why when I when I came to hunting in 920 00:50:09,719 --> 00:50:14,080 Speaker 1: my twenties, it just consumed me because it it um 921 00:50:14,600 --> 00:50:16,600 Speaker 1: to me there's no other part of my life that 922 00:50:16,760 --> 00:50:21,680 Speaker 1: so fully exists in in the most personal way and 923 00:50:21,760 --> 00:50:26,479 Speaker 1: also in the most intellectual kind of objective academic way. Um, 924 00:50:26,560 --> 00:50:29,600 Speaker 1: and that space right there is what is what I 925 00:50:29,640 --> 00:50:34,960 Speaker 1: find so compelling and consuming about it, Because yeah, You're right. 926 00:50:35,000 --> 00:50:37,680 Speaker 1: It's like it's it just seems so self evident what 927 00:50:37,680 --> 00:50:39,799 Speaker 1: we need to do. Um, and at the same time 928 00:50:39,840 --> 00:50:41,719 Speaker 1: that it can be there's nothing more personal that we 929 00:50:41,719 --> 00:50:45,120 Speaker 1: could do than than then take this activity that is 930 00:50:45,160 --> 00:50:48,440 Speaker 1: that is so meaningful to us and and kind of 931 00:50:48,480 --> 00:50:55,160 Speaker 1: be critically reflective about it, you know. Yeah, And I think, yeah, fortunately, um, 932 00:50:55,200 --> 00:50:59,080 Speaker 1: because I before the Black Lives Matter riot's really last 933 00:50:59,080 --> 00:51:02,400 Speaker 1: summer kind of got fired up. The previous November, we 934 00:51:02,480 --> 00:51:06,520 Speaker 1: had done a podcast on the subject of diversity and 935 00:51:06,600 --> 00:51:09,880 Speaker 1: hunting and how to really look at it critically, and 936 00:51:09,920 --> 00:51:13,400 Speaker 1: I got a lot of pushback, more than I expected, 937 00:51:13,520 --> 00:51:17,080 Speaker 1: and a more just vera like verocity, like people just 938 00:51:17,320 --> 00:51:20,480 Speaker 1: the people that didn't like it just couldn't understand why 939 00:51:20,520 --> 00:51:23,799 Speaker 1: I would even entertain such an idea. And then as 940 00:51:23,840 --> 00:51:27,040 Speaker 1: time went on, um, even just you know last week's 941 00:51:27,040 --> 00:51:29,759 Speaker 1: episode with with Lydia and Jimmy from Hunters of Color, 942 00:51:29,880 --> 00:51:33,640 Speaker 1: it was almost like a non issue. It is almost 943 00:51:33,719 --> 00:51:37,080 Speaker 1: like everyone that didn't run for the Hills back then 944 00:51:37,239 --> 00:51:40,400 Speaker 1: that hung on sees this just as something we talk about. 945 00:51:40,520 --> 00:51:43,319 Speaker 1: It's not something you know, there are little intricacies that 946 00:51:43,320 --> 00:51:45,960 Speaker 1: people disagreed with in a very constructive way. But there 947 00:51:46,040 --> 00:51:50,399 Speaker 1: wasn't any inflammatory hate hate speaks around you know what 948 00:51:50,440 --> 00:51:53,600 Speaker 1: we talked about. And so that's movement. Man, We'll get 949 00:51:53,640 --> 00:51:56,719 Speaker 1: movement on this, UM. But it's just you know, keep 950 00:51:56,800 --> 00:51:58,759 Speaker 1: talking about it, and you know it's from you to 951 00:51:58,840 --> 00:52:01,080 Speaker 1: be you know, growing up in the different country, in 952 00:52:01,120 --> 00:52:03,600 Speaker 1: a different you know, pretty far away from where I 953 00:52:03,640 --> 00:52:06,760 Speaker 1: grew up. Um, to come to that same kind of idea. 954 00:52:06,800 --> 00:52:09,440 Speaker 1: I think it's in and of itself kind of analogy 955 00:52:09,560 --> 00:52:11,120 Speaker 1: for where we got to do for the rest of 956 00:52:11,120 --> 00:52:15,280 Speaker 1: them totally. And and these and these connections, I mean, um, 957 00:52:15,320 --> 00:52:18,400 Speaker 1: you know, I've chatted with Jimmy since they first launched 958 00:52:18,440 --> 00:52:21,120 Speaker 1: Hunters of Color and it's like, you know, I didn't 959 00:52:21,120 --> 00:52:22,799 Speaker 1: even know where he lived at the time. And then 960 00:52:22,920 --> 00:52:25,839 Speaker 1: then you find out that people are now connected on this, 961 00:52:26,600 --> 00:52:29,920 Speaker 1: their their platform has connected people across the entire continent 962 00:52:30,600 --> 00:52:33,000 Speaker 1: around this, and it's and you realize, this is not 963 00:52:33,120 --> 00:52:36,960 Speaker 1: a this is this is a topic that UM is 964 00:52:37,000 --> 00:52:39,560 Speaker 1: not as loud as others, but it's not niche. It's 965 00:52:39,600 --> 00:52:42,360 Speaker 1: not it's not sort of tucked away in the corner somewhere. 966 00:52:42,360 --> 00:52:45,400 Speaker 1: And I think, like what I try to get it 967 00:52:45,440 --> 00:52:48,040 Speaker 1: across to other hunt hunters I talked to, and you know, 968 00:52:48,040 --> 00:52:49,920 Speaker 1: when I try to kind of get across and writing 969 00:52:50,000 --> 00:52:55,839 Speaker 1: is these things are tough, they're complicated, they're frightening, um, 970 00:52:55,880 --> 00:52:58,280 Speaker 1: and that is something. Those are things, and those are feelings, 971 00:52:58,320 --> 00:53:01,320 Speaker 1: and those are challenges that the hunting community and hunters 972 00:53:01,560 --> 00:53:05,000 Speaker 1: and conservationists have dealt with since the beginning. Nothing that 973 00:53:05,080 --> 00:53:09,200 Speaker 1: we no success that we've ache has not been heretical 974 00:53:09,239 --> 00:53:12,160 Speaker 1: at the time. I mean like did you like, do 975 00:53:12,200 --> 00:53:14,440 Speaker 1: you think do you take these big stories that um, 976 00:53:14,600 --> 00:53:16,800 Speaker 1: and you think when people wanted to stop market hunting 977 00:53:17,080 --> 00:53:21,120 Speaker 1: in the early that that was a popular opinion among hunters. Like, 978 00:53:22,239 --> 00:53:26,680 Speaker 1: so it doesn't at all concern me. It concerns me 979 00:53:26,760 --> 00:53:29,680 Speaker 1: greatly that that we have people as part of a 980 00:53:29,719 --> 00:53:32,640 Speaker 1: community that I'm part of that don't feel that everyone 981 00:53:32,680 --> 00:53:35,680 Speaker 1: belongs here. That that that concerns me greatly. But it doesn't. 982 00:53:35,840 --> 00:53:39,239 Speaker 1: It doesn't deter me because I think that we just 983 00:53:39,280 --> 00:53:41,920 Speaker 1: know that we're onto something. You know well, and if 984 00:53:41,960 --> 00:53:44,400 Speaker 1: you it's funny how this works too, because you go 985 00:53:44,520 --> 00:53:48,640 Speaker 1: back to like when they had the first ever National 986 00:53:48,640 --> 00:53:53,000 Speaker 1: Wildlife Conference, When you start looking at the who was there, 987 00:53:53,640 --> 00:53:58,040 Speaker 1: who was really the gathering around conservation? There was garden clubs. 988 00:53:59,040 --> 00:54:02,360 Speaker 1: There was a much more I guess you could say diverse, 989 00:54:02,440 --> 00:54:06,800 Speaker 1: but much more varied stakeholder group back then. It seems, um. 990 00:54:06,840 --> 00:54:10,160 Speaker 1: And maybe it's just how politics and our society and 991 00:54:10,640 --> 00:54:13,720 Speaker 1: sociology has moved, but it just kind of seemed back 992 00:54:13,760 --> 00:54:17,480 Speaker 1: then that there was you know, there was there was 993 00:54:17,600 --> 00:54:20,600 Speaker 1: John Muir hanging out with Teddy Roosevelt like that. That 994 00:54:20,600 --> 00:54:24,520 Speaker 1: that did happen, um, and it even back then was 995 00:54:24,640 --> 00:54:27,640 Speaker 1: very publicized. So well, yeah, and I mean this is 996 00:54:27,760 --> 00:54:31,000 Speaker 1: I think, you know, you know, Ralph Waldo Emerson was 997 00:54:32,239 --> 00:54:35,960 Speaker 1: you know, eventually spoke out against hunting, and we see 998 00:54:36,040 --> 00:54:39,479 Speaker 1: him as one of the great naturalists, right, we see um, sorry, 999 00:54:39,480 --> 00:54:41,719 Speaker 1: I'm sorry, Henry David Threau. Rather and you know, we 1000 00:54:41,760 --> 00:54:44,640 Speaker 1: see we see Walden as um as one of the 1001 00:54:44,680 --> 00:54:47,560 Speaker 1: greatest environmental texts and that that taught us so much 1002 00:54:47,600 --> 00:54:49,759 Speaker 1: about how to think about living with nature. And in 1003 00:54:49,800 --> 00:54:52,560 Speaker 1: that book it speaks out against eating meat, and it 1004 00:54:52,680 --> 00:54:56,399 Speaker 1: it it doesn't seem to take away from what we've 1005 00:54:56,440 --> 00:54:58,840 Speaker 1: learned from him in terms of relating to the environment 1006 00:54:58,920 --> 00:55:02,600 Speaker 1: and being steward of the land. Um, because he didn't 1007 00:55:02,600 --> 00:55:04,040 Speaker 1: do it in a way that was meant to polar eyes. 1008 00:55:04,080 --> 00:55:07,640 Speaker 1: He didn't talk about it, he didn't demonize and villainize people. Um. 1009 00:55:07,719 --> 00:55:11,840 Speaker 1: It was still towards the same the same goal, the 1010 00:55:11,880 --> 00:55:15,560 Speaker 1: same kind of thing that we that we all agreed on. Um. 1011 00:55:15,600 --> 00:55:19,040 Speaker 1: And so I think that's instructive just and how, you know, 1012 00:55:19,080 --> 00:55:22,239 Speaker 1: how we interpret things now and how we how we 1013 00:55:22,320 --> 00:55:24,440 Speaker 1: don't see things or how we do see things from 1014 00:55:24,480 --> 00:55:26,160 Speaker 1: the past, and we kind of when we kind of 1015 00:55:26,239 --> 00:55:30,560 Speaker 1: question that, we realize there are some lessons there, you know, 1016 00:55:30,800 --> 00:55:33,600 Speaker 1: and how we maybe should be doing things differently. Yeah, 1017 00:55:33,760 --> 00:55:35,960 Speaker 1: I always I'm telling you, I look back at that, 1018 00:55:36,080 --> 00:55:40,439 Speaker 1: you know, FDR and that Wildlife conference back in I've 1019 00:55:40,440 --> 00:55:42,680 Speaker 1: studied that and kind of read some of the reports 1020 00:55:42,680 --> 00:55:45,800 Speaker 1: that came out of that, and you get this idea 1021 00:55:46,040 --> 00:55:48,839 Speaker 1: and maybe it's maybe it's idealistic. Maybe I don't. If 1022 00:55:48,880 --> 00:55:50,600 Speaker 1: I was there, I wouldn't feel this way. But I 1023 00:55:50,960 --> 00:55:52,600 Speaker 1: when I look back at that that you know, two 1024 00:55:52,640 --> 00:55:55,839 Speaker 1: thousand conservationists. There was farmers, hunters, anglers, like I said, 1025 00:55:55,840 --> 00:55:59,680 Speaker 1: garden club members, outdoor enthusiasts. There was a General Wildlife 1026 00:55:59,680 --> 00:56:03,200 Speaker 1: fetter Acian idea, and also a group called the General 1027 00:56:03,239 --> 00:56:06,719 Speaker 1: Wildlife Federation, which changed two years Two years later, to 1028 00:56:06,760 --> 00:56:12,040 Speaker 1: the National Wildlife Federation. Um, that that really felt like that, 1029 00:56:12,280 --> 00:56:14,080 Speaker 1: you know, because there was so much of a threat 1030 00:56:14,120 --> 00:56:17,640 Speaker 1: out there, such a general threat to wildlife and wild lands, 1031 00:56:17,719 --> 00:56:21,439 Speaker 1: and just kind of our ability to go there, um, 1032 00:56:21,520 --> 00:56:23,319 Speaker 1: that we could gather around that. So I think we're 1033 00:56:23,320 --> 00:56:25,560 Speaker 1: there now too. I mean we're there now too. I 1034 00:56:25,600 --> 00:56:30,400 Speaker 1: think if we just look hard and dig into it. Um. 1035 00:56:30,440 --> 00:56:32,480 Speaker 1: But yeah, I appreciate. I appreciate where you are on that. 1036 00:56:32,520 --> 00:56:35,160 Speaker 1: I really do. Yeah. Thanks, I'm glad. Yeah, it's cool 1037 00:56:35,160 --> 00:56:37,880 Speaker 1: that you had them on that. That's great. Yeah, like 1038 00:56:37,920 --> 00:56:40,319 Speaker 1: I said it, I mean, like so the first time 1039 00:56:40,360 --> 00:56:42,680 Speaker 1: we really broached this subject. And I'm not I'm not naive. 1040 00:56:42,719 --> 00:56:46,680 Speaker 1: I understand that there's a wide swath of America that's 1041 00:56:46,719 --> 00:56:48,960 Speaker 1: tired of of tired of hearing about it, and wants 1042 00:56:48,960 --> 00:56:52,320 Speaker 1: to just talk about turkeys. I'm with them too. I 1043 00:56:52,360 --> 00:56:54,680 Speaker 1: would love to just talk about turkeys. But I have 1044 00:56:54,719 --> 00:56:58,600 Speaker 1: a disposition that doesn't allow for that. I don't think. Um. 1045 00:56:58,640 --> 00:57:00,799 Speaker 1: But you know that for us, like I said, for 1046 00:57:00,840 --> 00:57:02,520 Speaker 1: us to be able to push push that forward and 1047 00:57:02,600 --> 00:57:06,680 Speaker 1: simplify it um on a broad level and personalize it 1048 00:57:06,719 --> 00:57:10,120 Speaker 1: on on you know, like a micro level, I think 1049 00:57:10,200 --> 00:57:13,400 Speaker 1: is is just the way in for for people to 1050 00:57:13,440 --> 00:57:16,040 Speaker 1: be asking. We had some good emailers from last Kudos 1051 00:57:16,040 --> 00:57:18,880 Speaker 1: to these folks that emailed last week about that episode, 1052 00:57:19,120 --> 00:57:21,240 Speaker 1: and they were just it felt like they were nitpicking 1053 00:57:21,320 --> 00:57:23,280 Speaker 1: some of the points made, and I was so happy 1054 00:57:23,320 --> 00:57:26,640 Speaker 1: to see people nitpicking some of the solutions for the 1055 00:57:26,680 --> 00:57:29,920 Speaker 1: problem rather than the problem. Yeah. Absolutely, that's a good 1056 00:57:29,920 --> 00:57:32,600 Speaker 1: way to put it, for sure. And I think, um, well, 1057 00:57:33,320 --> 00:57:34,960 Speaker 1: you know it won't surprise you that I found that 1058 00:57:35,040 --> 00:57:37,680 Speaker 1: your discussion with paulish you're really interesting for that because 1059 00:57:39,000 --> 00:57:42,640 Speaker 1: because of that, I found, um, there was a different 1060 00:57:42,680 --> 00:57:46,960 Speaker 1: focus sometimes, um from his perspective on on the problem 1061 00:57:47,080 --> 00:57:50,200 Speaker 1: versus the knitpicking of the like the ideas and and 1062 00:57:50,200 --> 00:57:55,120 Speaker 1: and um what he chose to focus on. Right, So yeah, yeah, 1063 00:57:55,120 --> 00:57:57,080 Speaker 1: I'm glad you. I'm glad you listened to that. I 1064 00:57:57,160 --> 00:58:01,520 Speaker 1: can't listen back to it. I don't have it's you know, 1065 00:58:01,600 --> 00:58:04,920 Speaker 1: like those things become just to get one of the reasons, 1066 00:58:05,040 --> 00:58:06,760 Speaker 1: I'll just will start at the beginning here. One of 1067 00:58:06,800 --> 00:58:08,720 Speaker 1: the reasons I wanted to have Paul on was Paul 1068 00:58:08,800 --> 00:58:11,480 Speaker 1: McCartney who we're talking to, not Paul the sheer Holly 1069 00:58:11,520 --> 00:58:15,800 Speaker 1: different reasons. Yeah, and not Paul McCartney because he would 1070 00:58:15,800 --> 00:58:17,560 Speaker 1: probably have to come with Paul the Sheer. They'd have 1071 00:58:17,600 --> 00:58:21,160 Speaker 1: to come on together. UM, as you wrote a piece 1072 00:58:21,160 --> 00:58:23,880 Speaker 1: called up the difference between animal rights and animal welfare 1073 00:58:23,920 --> 00:58:27,400 Speaker 1: around appreciate the nuance between in the history of of 1074 00:58:27,560 --> 00:58:30,680 Speaker 1: animal rights, and I'm sure i'd love to get you 1075 00:58:30,680 --> 00:58:32,520 Speaker 1: know after you listen to that. It's been a while 1076 00:58:32,560 --> 00:58:35,520 Speaker 1: since I talked to Paul the Sheer, and it's been 1077 00:58:35,520 --> 00:58:38,400 Speaker 1: a while since I really kind of went back to 1078 00:58:38,480 --> 00:58:42,120 Speaker 1: that episode, but we did. UM also have a listener 1079 00:58:42,120 --> 00:58:44,920 Speaker 1: of our podcast send us a bunch of answers here 1080 00:58:45,000 --> 00:58:48,400 Speaker 1: recently about uh large scale agg and how many animals 1081 00:58:48,440 --> 00:58:50,880 Speaker 1: that kill and we we've talked about that already in 1082 00:58:50,920 --> 00:58:55,840 Speaker 1: this episode, but we're getting you know, this is kind 1083 00:58:55,880 --> 00:58:58,600 Speaker 1: of a good time to take a reset and respond 1084 00:58:58,640 --> 00:59:01,880 Speaker 1: to that because they're so much that happened. I fired. 1085 00:59:01,920 --> 00:59:05,120 Speaker 1: I laughed because I just fired a lot of people up. UM. 1086 00:59:05,160 --> 00:59:07,240 Speaker 1: But what's you listen to that? What What did you 1087 00:59:07,280 --> 00:59:12,520 Speaker 1: take from that UM conversation? Yeah, Man, I took us 1088 00:59:12,520 --> 00:59:17,080 Speaker 1: so much from it, Um, I took it so I 1089 00:59:17,080 --> 00:59:20,800 Speaker 1: I specifically focused on the concept of appreciating nuance, and 1090 00:59:20,840 --> 00:59:22,880 Speaker 1: I did very deliberately when I wrote that piece of 1091 00:59:22,880 --> 00:59:26,240 Speaker 1: animal rights and welfare, I very deliberately did not position 1092 00:59:26,280 --> 00:59:31,600 Speaker 1: it as animal rights versus animal welfare UM. Because I did, 1093 00:59:31,840 --> 00:59:34,080 Speaker 1: I don't see them as as I see them as 1094 00:59:34,320 --> 00:59:39,120 Speaker 1: as a as a contrast and as having specific, nuanced differences. 1095 00:59:39,320 --> 00:59:41,880 Speaker 1: And one of the things I took from that conversation 1096 00:59:42,120 --> 00:59:44,880 Speaker 1: is the importance of language and exactly what I was 1097 00:59:44,920 --> 00:59:47,760 Speaker 1: sort of trying to highlight my pieces around and what 1098 00:59:47,800 --> 00:59:51,000 Speaker 1: I took from that was and how language can be used, 1099 00:59:51,760 --> 00:59:57,680 Speaker 1: um and in some cases misused UM two in presenting 1100 00:59:57,680 --> 01:00:02,320 Speaker 1: a perspective that U that kind of mobilizes certain you 1101 01:00:02,360 --> 01:00:04,800 Speaker 1: know what's called in the literature, It's called moral framings, 1102 01:00:05,000 --> 01:00:09,200 Speaker 1: so um, you know, packaging something up into a set 1103 01:00:09,240 --> 01:00:13,920 Speaker 1: of kind of framings and ideas that certain people are 1104 01:00:13,920 --> 01:00:16,800 Speaker 1: going to respond one way to and other people are 1105 01:00:16,800 --> 01:00:20,440 Speaker 1: going to respond a different way too. And the animal 1106 01:00:20,560 --> 01:00:23,680 Speaker 1: rights movement is phenomenal at this. They're incredible at doing 1107 01:00:24,000 --> 01:00:28,800 Speaker 1: doing this effectively. And so that was something I took 1108 01:00:28,840 --> 01:00:31,000 Speaker 1: from that because I felt that it, I mean, I 1109 01:00:31,040 --> 01:00:34,960 Speaker 1: was pulled out of the conversation and it when when so, 1110 01:00:35,320 --> 01:00:36,920 Speaker 1: and I mean, I don't know, I don't want I 1111 01:00:36,960 --> 01:00:40,560 Speaker 1: don't want it at all. Um. You know hang Polish 1112 01:00:40,600 --> 01:00:42,240 Speaker 1: show to dry it all. It was a great conversation 1113 01:00:42,280 --> 01:00:45,440 Speaker 1: and I enjoyed listening to it. Um. But you know 1114 01:00:45,480 --> 01:00:47,560 Speaker 1: there were when when they use when he used his 1115 01:00:47,640 --> 01:00:52,040 Speaker 1: language like like murder and violate and things. Um. That's 1116 01:00:52,200 --> 01:00:59,240 Speaker 1: that's reference to very specific legal and ideological ideas and frameworks. Um. 1117 01:00:59,320 --> 01:01:01,640 Speaker 1: And so that something that that really stood out to me, 1118 01:01:01,720 --> 01:01:05,160 Speaker 1: is it it pulled me out of the bigger topic 1119 01:01:05,240 --> 01:01:08,160 Speaker 1: and and sort of had me focusing too much on 1120 01:01:08,280 --> 01:01:10,880 Speaker 1: that stuff. Let me just let me just say that 1121 01:01:10,880 --> 01:01:13,440 Speaker 1: that is something I've run to almost I actually did 1122 01:01:13,480 --> 01:01:17,800 Speaker 1: another podcast with a gentleman um, an animal rights activist, 1123 01:01:17,920 --> 01:01:20,360 Speaker 1: and I went to his house or this animal rights 1124 01:01:20,360 --> 01:01:24,240 Speaker 1: house called the Dingo Den, and Uh, this gentleman is 1125 01:01:24,600 --> 01:01:26,160 Speaker 1: is I just don't like to say his name or 1126 01:01:26,160 --> 01:01:28,240 Speaker 1: his group anymore because they've just done some stuff since 1127 01:01:28,280 --> 01:01:31,080 Speaker 1: then that I just I don't even want to promote 1128 01:01:31,760 --> 01:01:35,760 Speaker 1: even as as a listening tool. Um. But I went 1129 01:01:35,840 --> 01:01:38,280 Speaker 1: there and immediately was struck me. This is the first 1130 01:01:38,320 --> 01:01:40,120 Speaker 1: time I've really seen it. And then I've seen it 1131 01:01:40,160 --> 01:01:43,440 Speaker 1: and heard it every other conversation since. As we start 1132 01:01:43,480 --> 01:01:48,120 Speaker 1: to get into animal rights is kind of like the 1133 01:01:48,200 --> 01:01:52,320 Speaker 1: civil rights movement as kind of like the right, you know, 1134 01:01:52,440 --> 01:01:55,080 Speaker 1: the movement to end slavery is kind of like And 1135 01:01:55,120 --> 01:01:57,840 Speaker 1: so then I end up having to be in the 1136 01:01:58,040 --> 01:02:05,280 Speaker 1: uncomfortable sometimes position of semantics trying to decouple slavery from hunting. 1137 01:02:06,040 --> 01:02:09,360 Speaker 1: And that I feel, I feel, if it's not deliberate, 1138 01:02:09,440 --> 01:02:12,480 Speaker 1: it's certainly tactical. Right, It's certainly like part of their 1139 01:02:12,520 --> 01:02:16,640 Speaker 1: training to get you to to become uncomfortable with your 1140 01:02:16,640 --> 01:02:18,680 Speaker 1: own argument, because you have to then you have to 1141 01:02:18,720 --> 01:02:20,920 Speaker 1: set those two things beside each other. So I think 1142 01:02:20,960 --> 01:02:23,600 Speaker 1: that goes to your moral framing comment. Yeah, and it 1143 01:02:23,640 --> 01:02:26,760 Speaker 1: and it and it is deliberate. Um and and hey, look, 1144 01:02:26,800 --> 01:02:30,320 Speaker 1: I mean you know, as a hunting community, we have 1145 01:02:30,800 --> 01:02:33,600 Speaker 1: strategies and tactics that we use as well, many of 1146 01:02:33,640 --> 01:02:35,720 Speaker 1: which I think are great and many of which make 1147 01:02:35,800 --> 01:02:38,560 Speaker 1: me cringe. Uh. And I understand that different movements have 1148 01:02:38,560 --> 01:02:41,600 Speaker 1: different approaches and tactics, And I think this is the thing. 1149 01:02:41,720 --> 01:02:45,360 Speaker 1: This is sort of the rub to me, is, um, 1150 01:02:45,480 --> 01:02:49,120 Speaker 1: how do we peel back those those specific strategies and 1151 01:02:49,200 --> 01:02:53,920 Speaker 1: tactics and get to some of those underlying ideas and 1152 01:02:54,160 --> 01:02:58,320 Speaker 1: um and uh And in some cases I mean, in 1153 01:02:58,360 --> 01:03:01,200 Speaker 1: some cases that will be strategic for us, because at 1154 01:03:01,200 --> 01:03:02,680 Speaker 1: the end of the day, no one is letting go, 1155 01:03:03,080 --> 01:03:06,640 Speaker 1: no one's letting go over their long term goals, and 1156 01:03:06,720 --> 01:03:09,560 Speaker 1: so in some cases, I think, you know, one of 1157 01:03:09,560 --> 01:03:12,360 Speaker 1: the things to me, I think is is that this 1158 01:03:12,440 --> 01:03:14,360 Speaker 1: is strategic to us if we can be a little 1159 01:03:14,360 --> 01:03:17,640 Speaker 1: more measured, a little more careful, and even some cases 1160 01:03:17,720 --> 01:03:23,280 Speaker 1: more sympathetic to to these other ideas. Um, the worst 1161 01:03:23,280 --> 01:03:25,600 Speaker 1: case scenario, we're gonna have a better understanding of our 1162 01:03:25,600 --> 01:03:28,000 Speaker 1: own perspective, in our own directions, in our own language, 1163 01:03:28,120 --> 01:03:30,200 Speaker 1: and in best case scenario, we're going to have better 1164 01:03:30,240 --> 01:03:36,320 Speaker 1: connections with people that, um, we didn't have before. You know, well, 1165 01:03:36,680 --> 01:03:38,680 Speaker 1: I mean your article gets into the history I want 1166 01:03:38,680 --> 01:03:40,560 Speaker 1: to get into the history of animal rights and then 1167 01:03:40,560 --> 01:03:42,400 Speaker 1: comparing it to animal welfare. But you bring up a 1168 01:03:42,440 --> 01:03:45,040 Speaker 1: good point that maybe we can work through if you 1169 01:03:45,040 --> 01:03:46,880 Speaker 1: don't mind. Prior and I didn't really think of it 1170 01:03:46,960 --> 01:03:50,200 Speaker 1: this way, but there are these kind of constructs in 1171 01:03:50,200 --> 01:03:53,640 Speaker 1: our own head about hunting, how we argue hunting. Um, 1172 01:03:53,640 --> 01:03:56,120 Speaker 1: I always try to first start by peeling back our 1173 01:03:56,160 --> 01:03:58,560 Speaker 1: own dogma and saying, like, what am I really trying 1174 01:03:58,560 --> 01:04:01,200 Speaker 1: to say here? And that's led me to kind of 1175 01:04:01,240 --> 01:04:05,280 Speaker 1: like a conversation about death that is pretty infallible when 1176 01:04:05,360 --> 01:04:07,280 Speaker 1: when you start thinking about animal rights, you know, because 1177 01:04:07,280 --> 01:04:09,439 Speaker 1: then you start to then you start to compare death 1178 01:04:09,520 --> 01:04:13,080 Speaker 1: to death um, and it gets interesting. But but when 1179 01:04:13,120 --> 01:04:15,520 Speaker 1: I think of okay, here's one of the see, if 1180 01:04:15,520 --> 01:04:19,000 Speaker 1: you agree with with the analogy of the altruistic hunter, 1181 01:04:19,120 --> 01:04:23,520 Speaker 1: we often present ourselves, present the hunting community, this altruistic 1182 01:04:23,760 --> 01:04:30,280 Speaker 1: band of um animal welfare lovers and conservationists that are 1183 01:04:30,320 --> 01:04:33,720 Speaker 1: out there thinn and herds and and really that's like 1184 01:04:33,960 --> 01:04:37,600 Speaker 1: uh anymore a thin veneer on why we're really out there? 1185 01:04:37,640 --> 01:04:40,400 Speaker 1: My my philosophy or my thought about this would love 1186 01:04:40,400 --> 01:04:42,640 Speaker 1: to hear you talk about it a little bit. Is 1187 01:04:42,680 --> 01:04:45,440 Speaker 1: that you know, there's a game theory side the hunting. 1188 01:04:45,720 --> 01:04:48,920 Speaker 1: You know, you're you're pursuing a goal, right, a trophy 1189 01:04:48,920 --> 01:04:51,240 Speaker 1: in some cases are you're pursuing a goal and there's 1190 01:04:51,240 --> 01:04:53,920 Speaker 1: a lot of of different inputs and outputs that are 1191 01:04:54,080 --> 01:04:58,480 Speaker 1: very exciting UM on just a game level, Like the 1192 01:04:58,560 --> 01:05:00,360 Speaker 1: same way we play a video game, this same way 1193 01:05:00,400 --> 01:05:04,400 Speaker 1: we play a board game, where those things are pleasing 1194 01:05:04,400 --> 01:05:07,080 Speaker 1: to us psychologically and help us UM in a lot 1195 01:05:07,120 --> 01:05:11,160 Speaker 1: of ways. So while we might come off as alstruistic 1196 01:05:11,200 --> 01:05:13,600 Speaker 1: in an argument with an animal rights person, we have 1197 01:05:13,680 --> 01:05:16,440 Speaker 1: a lot to unpack there. Um. Have you done much 1198 01:05:16,480 --> 01:05:21,160 Speaker 1: thinking about that? Yeah, for sure. UM. And one of 1199 01:05:21,160 --> 01:05:23,280 Speaker 1: the things that have kind of come to a lot 1200 01:05:23,320 --> 01:05:28,720 Speaker 1: more recently is UM is being able to um to 1201 01:05:28,920 --> 01:05:32,840 Speaker 1: being able to adjust our presentation of things depending on 1202 01:05:32,880 --> 01:05:36,360 Speaker 1: the audience. And I think getting past two issues that 1203 01:05:36,440 --> 01:05:39,160 Speaker 1: we have with that, so we know, be often this 1204 01:05:39,200 --> 01:05:41,160 Speaker 1: is why hunt, and this is this is the narrative. 1205 01:05:41,200 --> 01:05:43,320 Speaker 1: I hunt because of A, B and C. And and 1206 01:05:43,320 --> 01:05:45,480 Speaker 1: then we have a tendency in a lot of cases 1207 01:05:45,800 --> 01:05:48,160 Speaker 1: or whatever. I mean, not not just hunting, but anybody, right, 1208 01:05:48,200 --> 01:05:51,000 Speaker 1: But UM, we have a tendency then to say, no 1209 01:05:51,000 --> 01:05:53,600 Speaker 1: matter what conversation I'm in, I'm going in like a 1210 01:05:53,600 --> 01:05:55,480 Speaker 1: ton of bricks with my A, B and C reasons. 1211 01:05:56,480 --> 01:05:59,320 Speaker 1: And a lot more recently, you know, in the last while, 1212 01:05:59,320 --> 01:06:02,120 Speaker 1: I've kind of released had to think about, you know, 1213 01:06:02,760 --> 01:06:05,560 Speaker 1: this kind of framing element to this and how do 1214 01:06:05,640 --> 01:06:08,440 Speaker 1: we how do we adjust what we're saying to the audience. 1215 01:06:08,520 --> 01:06:10,040 Speaker 1: And I think we have to get past a couple 1216 01:06:10,040 --> 01:06:14,000 Speaker 1: of things. We have to get past one this UM 1217 01:06:14,280 --> 01:06:18,640 Speaker 1: idea that we are somehow being politically correct or all 1218 01:06:18,680 --> 01:06:21,080 Speaker 1: these other accusations that I sometimes get in this while 1219 01:06:21,160 --> 01:06:24,680 Speaker 1: you're just pandering, right, and uh. And then the second 1220 01:06:24,680 --> 01:06:27,920 Speaker 1: thing I think we need to get past is um 1221 01:06:28,040 --> 01:06:29,720 Speaker 1: the idea that we need to be that we are 1222 01:06:29,760 --> 01:06:32,480 Speaker 1: being somehow dishonest by by doing that, by adjusting the 1223 01:06:32,480 --> 01:06:34,920 Speaker 1: way we frame things. And I don't think either of 1224 01:06:34,960 --> 01:06:38,920 Speaker 1: the two things are true. I think, um, I I 1225 01:06:39,000 --> 01:06:41,320 Speaker 1: hunt for many reasons, and it's very complex to me 1226 01:06:41,360 --> 01:06:45,560 Speaker 1: in my own head, and so too kind of pull 1227 01:06:45,600 --> 01:06:49,160 Speaker 1: at different threads at different times is not is not me. 1228 01:06:49,520 --> 01:06:53,280 Speaker 1: It's not it's not pandering, it's not bowing down or 1229 01:06:53,320 --> 01:06:57,080 Speaker 1: bending over to anyone. It's it's about saying, you know what, 1230 01:06:57,240 --> 01:06:59,080 Speaker 1: this is such an important activity to me, and this 1231 01:06:59,160 --> 01:07:01,880 Speaker 1: is so meaningful and profound to me that no matter 1232 01:07:01,920 --> 01:07:04,080 Speaker 1: what the perspective is you come from, I have a 1233 01:07:04,080 --> 01:07:06,480 Speaker 1: way to relate to that because hunting touches so many 1234 01:07:06,480 --> 01:07:09,080 Speaker 1: different parts of what I think and what I believe 1235 01:07:09,160 --> 01:07:11,680 Speaker 1: and how I moved through the world that I can 1236 01:07:11,720 --> 01:07:14,960 Speaker 1: I can find something to relate to on that. And 1237 01:07:15,000 --> 01:07:17,640 Speaker 1: then again, like you know, not feeling like we're being 1238 01:07:18,080 --> 01:07:20,760 Speaker 1: sort of dishonest to our to it by not saying, well, 1239 01:07:20,760 --> 01:07:22,120 Speaker 1: I don't know, I have to I have to cover 1240 01:07:23,280 --> 01:07:25,680 Speaker 1: the how much money we rate as well, because not everyone, 1241 01:07:26,280 --> 01:07:28,400 Speaker 1: not everyone is thinking about that. Now. People don't if 1242 01:07:28,440 --> 01:07:32,160 Speaker 1: you have them, If people are morally opposed to killing animals, 1243 01:07:32,960 --> 01:07:36,920 Speaker 1: telling them that you pay to kill animals doesn't make 1244 01:07:36,960 --> 01:07:40,080 Speaker 1: any sense to them, and understandably so in this guy, 1245 01:07:40,080 --> 01:07:41,680 Speaker 1: I think comes back to something else that I really 1246 01:07:41,680 --> 01:07:44,000 Speaker 1: took from your conversation with Paul that I that I 1247 01:07:44,080 --> 01:07:48,480 Speaker 1: found really sort of insightful in a way. So one 1248 01:07:48,520 --> 01:07:49,920 Speaker 1: of the things that I don't want to keep bring 1249 01:07:50,000 --> 01:07:52,200 Speaker 1: it back to this, but but it kind of connects here. 1250 01:07:52,800 --> 01:07:55,040 Speaker 1: UM is one of the things that you both talked 1251 01:07:55,040 --> 01:08:02,080 Speaker 1: a lot about was UM was getting closer to food 1252 01:08:02,160 --> 01:08:04,200 Speaker 1: and in this case, getting closer to the to the 1253 01:08:04,240 --> 01:08:08,160 Speaker 1: death that is inevitable in food UM and taking kind 1254 01:08:08,200 --> 01:08:12,120 Speaker 1: of taking that on right, carrying that burden. And to me, 1255 01:08:12,320 --> 01:08:14,200 Speaker 1: where where it went in my head when I heard 1256 01:08:14,200 --> 01:08:16,200 Speaker 1: you guys talking about that was sort of the flip 1257 01:08:16,240 --> 01:08:18,680 Speaker 1: side of that, which is that hunting to me is 1258 01:08:18,720 --> 01:08:22,040 Speaker 1: about taking control of the animal welfare part of things 1259 01:08:22,479 --> 01:08:24,960 Speaker 1: that I'm taking an active role in ensuring to the 1260 01:08:24,960 --> 01:08:29,160 Speaker 1: greatest extent possible that I am looking out for animal 1261 01:08:29,160 --> 01:08:33,200 Speaker 1: welfare and so yes, it's death, but I'm ensuring as 1262 01:08:33,240 --> 01:08:36,360 Speaker 1: much as I possibly can that I'm taking that under 1263 01:08:36,400 --> 01:08:39,439 Speaker 1: my own kind of wing. Um. And and that's and 1264 01:08:39,439 --> 01:08:41,000 Speaker 1: that's why I kind of come back to this animal 1265 01:08:41,040 --> 01:08:44,120 Speaker 1: welfare part of things, that that if as hunters, if 1266 01:08:44,160 --> 01:08:47,360 Speaker 1: we can kind of think about this and embrace this, 1267 01:08:47,439 --> 01:08:50,600 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, it's and not not be not 1268 01:08:50,800 --> 01:08:52,960 Speaker 1: shy away from the idea that is hunters, we are 1269 01:08:53,040 --> 01:08:56,240 Speaker 1: animal Welfare US and and we would extend that to 1270 01:08:56,280 --> 01:08:59,240 Speaker 1: probably say that we are Wildlife Welfare US and we 1271 01:08:59,280 --> 01:09:03,320 Speaker 1: are have tat welfares and we are you know, ecological 1272 01:09:03,320 --> 01:09:07,519 Speaker 1: process welfaris right. Um. And that's I think comes back 1273 01:09:07,520 --> 01:09:09,760 Speaker 1: to this idea about you know, we can adjust our 1274 01:09:09,800 --> 01:09:13,439 Speaker 1: messaging depending on who we're talking to and what we'll 1275 01:09:13,479 --> 01:09:17,479 Speaker 1: speak to that to them. Um. Yeah, I've always been 1276 01:09:18,040 --> 01:09:20,320 Speaker 1: and I've come to this through a lot of conversations 1277 01:09:20,320 --> 01:09:22,720 Speaker 1: like the one I have with paulish here, where there 1278 01:09:22,760 --> 01:09:26,479 Speaker 1: are the things I say I hunt, the reasons I 1279 01:09:26,560 --> 01:09:28,960 Speaker 1: say that I hunt, and then there are like the 1280 01:09:29,120 --> 01:09:32,200 Speaker 1: value that hunting brings to me personally, and that's like 1281 01:09:32,280 --> 01:09:35,200 Speaker 1: that's hard to understand even in your own mind. You 1282 01:09:35,240 --> 01:09:40,360 Speaker 1: know that I'm gonna say why on a broad scale hunting, Um, 1283 01:09:40,479 --> 01:09:42,240 Speaker 1: it's good for society, And then I'm want to say, 1284 01:09:42,280 --> 01:09:46,800 Speaker 1: on on my own personal scale, why it's good for me? 1285 01:09:47,000 --> 01:09:48,760 Speaker 1: And a lot of times it is, you know, a 1286 01:09:48,920 --> 01:09:54,719 Speaker 1: building skills and understanding UM, animals in a very intimate way, 1287 01:09:54,720 --> 01:09:57,439 Speaker 1: and those things are kind of they're very personal things. 1288 01:09:57,560 --> 01:09:59,760 Speaker 1: And what I saw that Paul does they do the 1289 01:09:59,760 --> 01:10:02,920 Speaker 1: same thing. They they have the same kind of micro 1290 01:10:03,200 --> 01:10:07,240 Speaker 1: macro reasons for being animal rights activists. UM. They want 1291 01:10:07,240 --> 01:10:09,200 Speaker 1: to save the world, they also want to save themselves 1292 01:10:09,640 --> 01:10:12,599 Speaker 1: in a lot of ways. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And that's 1293 01:10:12,600 --> 01:10:16,400 Speaker 1: one of the big I think differences between the animal 1294 01:10:16,479 --> 01:10:21,120 Speaker 1: rights kind of philosophy and subsequently the animal rights movement 1295 01:10:21,520 --> 01:10:27,639 Speaker 1: and UM where David Peterson, the writer David Peterson talks 1296 01:10:27,640 --> 01:10:29,280 Speaker 1: about you know, different kinds of hunters, and one of 1297 01:10:29,280 --> 01:10:31,400 Speaker 1: them he talks about is the nature hunter. Right, so 1298 01:10:31,920 --> 01:10:36,040 Speaker 1: people who would think about the landscape on on a 1299 01:10:36,040 --> 01:10:38,320 Speaker 1: bigger level, UM. And I think that's one of the 1300 01:10:38,320 --> 01:10:41,200 Speaker 1: differences is this is also the focus or not on 1301 01:10:41,560 --> 01:10:43,960 Speaker 1: to the the extent to which we focus on individuality 1302 01:10:45,080 --> 01:10:49,080 Speaker 1: UM and versus the go versus the whole or the 1303 01:10:49,200 --> 01:10:51,280 Speaker 1: or the you know. Um. And this is something we 1304 01:10:51,280 --> 01:10:53,000 Speaker 1: talked about his hunters, like I think about the herd, 1305 01:10:53,000 --> 01:10:55,840 Speaker 1: not the individual right um. And that can be in 1306 01:10:55,880 --> 01:10:57,400 Speaker 1: this case a bit of a metaphor as well, that 1307 01:10:57,439 --> 01:11:01,599 Speaker 1: I'm thinking about, you know, the welfare of the whole, 1308 01:11:01,720 --> 01:11:06,200 Speaker 1: not not the rights of the Yeah. And then you 1309 01:11:06,200 --> 01:11:08,720 Speaker 1: think of a lot of animal rights activists and a 1310 01:11:08,760 --> 01:11:11,080 Speaker 1: lot of the way that they decry hunting is to 1311 01:11:11,080 --> 01:11:14,559 Speaker 1: to look at a motivation in this singular sense. Right, 1312 01:11:14,720 --> 01:11:17,280 Speaker 1: the dentist that killed the lion, What was that dentist 1313 01:11:17,280 --> 01:11:18,800 Speaker 1: doing over there? Why would he be over there? Why 1314 01:11:18,800 --> 01:11:21,519 Speaker 1: does he want to do that? Right, It's and it 1315 01:11:21,560 --> 01:11:24,840 Speaker 1: becomes a straw man, um, and easily to kick over there. 1316 01:11:25,200 --> 01:11:27,320 Speaker 1: I've recently seen something going around in the animal rights 1317 01:11:27,360 --> 01:11:32,400 Speaker 1: community around um, coyote killing contests that makes hunters look 1318 01:11:32,439 --> 01:11:37,360 Speaker 1: like heartless bastards who kill um, you know, to notch 1319 01:11:37,400 --> 01:11:41,400 Speaker 1: their belts. Uh. And so those things, while those things 1320 01:11:41,439 --> 01:11:46,519 Speaker 1: are interesting conversations and in useful conversations in terms of 1321 01:11:46,560 --> 01:11:51,240 Speaker 1: like the fringe parts of hunting, it's it's nothing but 1322 01:11:51,280 --> 01:11:53,760 Speaker 1: a straw man when it comes to how we characterize 1323 01:11:53,800 --> 01:11:56,080 Speaker 1: each other. And I always encourage hunters not to do 1324 01:11:56,160 --> 01:11:58,960 Speaker 1: that the animal rights folks, Um, not every animal rights 1325 01:11:59,080 --> 01:12:03,680 Speaker 1: activist is pay Anderson right, And it's it's important not 1326 01:12:03,760 --> 01:12:06,080 Speaker 1: to decry that when it happens to us, but then 1327 01:12:06,120 --> 01:12:09,240 Speaker 1: turn around and apply that to the other. Yeah, And 1328 01:12:09,280 --> 01:12:11,519 Speaker 1: that's that is so important. And I mean, I think 1329 01:12:11,520 --> 01:12:13,200 Speaker 1: there's there's two things that come to mind to me 1330 01:12:13,240 --> 01:12:17,360 Speaker 1: there that's such an important point. And inasmuch as we 1331 01:12:17,400 --> 01:12:21,040 Speaker 1: talk about the hunting community being, um, being so different, 1332 01:12:21,040 --> 01:12:23,080 Speaker 1: it's made up of people that are that that disagree 1333 01:12:23,120 --> 01:12:25,799 Speaker 1: with some things and agree with some things, and um, 1334 01:12:25,840 --> 01:12:29,160 Speaker 1: you know where it's so complex. It would be a 1335 01:12:29,200 --> 01:12:32,439 Speaker 1: mistake to think that the animal rights community is one 1336 01:12:32,520 --> 01:12:37,560 Speaker 1: homogeneous is as homogeneous as the outward kind of billboards 1337 01:12:37,560 --> 01:12:41,120 Speaker 1: and slogans that the organizations put out right. And I 1338 01:12:41,160 --> 01:12:44,599 Speaker 1: and that's an important point to not kind of paint 1339 01:12:44,600 --> 01:12:46,440 Speaker 1: them with one brush. And I had a great conversation 1340 01:12:46,479 --> 01:12:50,719 Speaker 1: and again I won't I won't say his name here, 1341 01:12:50,760 --> 01:12:53,840 Speaker 1: but I had a great kind of private conversation with 1342 01:12:54,080 --> 01:12:57,519 Speaker 1: someone who's, UM, I don't know if he would consider 1343 01:12:57,560 --> 01:13:00,240 Speaker 1: himself an animal rights activist, but he's certainly advocate hates 1344 01:13:00,360 --> 01:13:02,519 Speaker 1: he certainly kind of advocates for anti trapping and in 1345 01:13:02,560 --> 01:13:04,800 Speaker 1: a lot of cases, um, what he would describe as 1346 01:13:04,800 --> 01:13:08,959 Speaker 1: anti trophy hunting activities. And anyway, we were speaking privately 1347 01:13:09,040 --> 01:13:12,800 Speaker 1: and he said, you know, UM, in some cases he 1348 01:13:12,800 --> 01:13:16,240 Speaker 1: would not consider this species to be a trophy hunter, 1349 01:13:16,280 --> 01:13:19,639 Speaker 1: a trophy hunts what quote trophy hunt species, whereas officially 1350 01:13:19,760 --> 01:13:22,880 Speaker 1: sort of in the animalrights community they would. And I 1351 01:13:23,360 --> 01:13:25,639 Speaker 1: got me to thinking about, you know, how comfortable would 1352 01:13:25,640 --> 01:13:30,559 Speaker 1: he be saying publicly, no, I don't think that that 1353 01:13:30,720 --> 01:13:34,599 Speaker 1: species should qualify for this kind of opposition to hunting, 1354 01:13:35,320 --> 01:13:39,320 Speaker 1: because he's just as much kind of pressured by his 1355 01:13:39,560 --> 01:13:42,719 Speaker 1: kind of community and in group as in some cases 1356 01:13:42,800 --> 01:13:44,800 Speaker 1: hunters are. And it makes me kind of then come 1357 01:13:44,840 --> 01:13:48,720 Speaker 1: back to the second piece there, which is that that 1358 01:13:48,760 --> 01:13:52,280 Speaker 1: I think hunters also need to be willing to um 1359 01:13:53,080 --> 01:13:56,080 Speaker 1: to demonstrate that that internal kind of difference. And it 1360 01:13:56,080 --> 01:13:59,479 Speaker 1: doesn't mean that we are you know, cracking the statue. 1361 01:13:59,560 --> 01:14:02,479 Speaker 1: To piece is it means that we're demonstrating that we 1362 01:14:02,520 --> 01:14:08,200 Speaker 1: can do for ourselves and within our own community. UM, 1363 01:14:08,200 --> 01:14:10,000 Speaker 1: we can have debates, and we can we can dig 1364 01:14:10,040 --> 01:14:12,519 Speaker 1: into things ethically, we can disagree on things, and we 1365 01:14:12,560 --> 01:14:17,760 Speaker 1: can we can occupy spaces of seeming contradiction, and we 1366 01:14:17,960 --> 01:14:23,080 Speaker 1: and and it it reduces the ability of those that 1367 01:14:23,320 --> 01:14:26,519 Speaker 1: would oppose us and anti hunters and I distinguished that 1368 01:14:26,560 --> 01:14:29,160 Speaker 1: from non hunters, but anti hunters. That reduces their ability 1369 01:14:29,200 --> 01:14:31,599 Speaker 1: to say, see, all of you hunters are the same. 1370 01:14:32,240 --> 01:14:36,280 Speaker 1: Because if we remove that ability and we show that 1371 01:14:36,320 --> 01:14:38,360 Speaker 1: we're that no, there is division and we are willing 1372 01:14:38,400 --> 01:14:43,600 Speaker 1: to have these debates internally in our own community. UM. 1373 01:14:43,640 --> 01:14:45,720 Speaker 1: I think that's that's an important example for I think 1374 01:14:45,720 --> 01:14:48,599 Speaker 1: that's that shows that, no, we're not all just blindly 1375 01:14:48,640 --> 01:14:51,200 Speaker 1: following one another. But it also allows us to connect 1376 01:14:51,240 --> 01:14:54,040 Speaker 1: with people who who say, you know, I disagree with 1377 01:14:54,200 --> 01:14:59,080 Speaker 1: kyote contests, but I don't necessarily disagree with hunting. And 1378 01:14:59,080 --> 01:15:01,240 Speaker 1: that's that's where I stand on the batter. I think 1379 01:15:01,880 --> 01:15:05,360 Speaker 1: presenting hunting is a contest. I find it horrible, but 1380 01:15:05,520 --> 01:15:08,519 Speaker 1: I don't wear kyote for I don't disagree without hunting 1381 01:15:08,520 --> 01:15:11,360 Speaker 1: and trapping. And so I can connect with people who 1382 01:15:11,640 --> 01:15:17,519 Speaker 1: are not hunters who might share that perspective. And you know, yeah, 1383 01:15:17,680 --> 01:15:20,760 Speaker 1: I've come to I've come to through conversations like those 1384 01:15:20,760 --> 01:15:24,040 Speaker 1: of paulish here and others I've had because I said 1385 01:15:24,080 --> 01:15:25,559 Speaker 1: before and I've said on this show many times, I 1386 01:15:25,560 --> 01:15:27,439 Speaker 1: try to strip away the dogma that I was taught 1387 01:15:27,439 --> 01:15:29,439 Speaker 1: when I walked into hunting at the age of twelve, 1388 01:15:29,520 --> 01:15:31,280 Speaker 1: Not that you know, my dad taught me any of 1389 01:15:31,280 --> 01:15:32,719 Speaker 1: this stuff, but just kind of the stuff that seemed 1390 01:15:32,760 --> 01:15:37,080 Speaker 1: like it was um baked into the industry maybe when 1391 01:15:37,120 --> 01:15:40,439 Speaker 1: I walked in like ways of thinking animal rights folks 1392 01:15:40,479 --> 01:15:43,760 Speaker 1: are all emotion, emotion and no facts, and they're all 1393 01:15:43,840 --> 01:15:45,960 Speaker 1: this and all that. And as I got through there, 1394 01:15:46,880 --> 01:15:49,120 Speaker 1: I really realized that a lot of that is true. 1395 01:15:49,840 --> 01:15:53,360 Speaker 1: But uh, it's true, and it's only a certain faction. 1396 01:15:53,439 --> 01:15:55,360 Speaker 1: So when I look at like animal rights, I see 1397 01:15:55,360 --> 01:15:59,280 Speaker 1: animal rights activists is way different than someone who tends 1398 01:15:59,360 --> 01:16:03,040 Speaker 1: to agree with animal rights rather than the you know, 1399 01:16:03,120 --> 01:16:06,719 Speaker 1: a hunting or conservation side of the coin. So in 1400 01:16:06,720 --> 01:16:10,479 Speaker 1: in an activist group, especially animal rights activists, there are 1401 01:16:10,479 --> 01:16:14,600 Speaker 1: a lot of very much emotional pan during that goes on. 1402 01:16:14,680 --> 01:16:17,200 Speaker 1: You saw with Paul Baser, Like you said, there's moral 1403 01:16:17,280 --> 01:16:21,240 Speaker 1: framing and involved and you get you you build an 1404 01:16:21,280 --> 01:16:25,400 Speaker 1: activist movement that's very hollow. It's kind of a thick shell, 1405 01:16:25,520 --> 01:16:27,439 Speaker 1: but it's hollow on the inside because the way that 1406 01:16:27,479 --> 01:16:31,200 Speaker 1: you recruit people is through emotion. It's through you know, 1407 01:16:31,240 --> 01:16:34,760 Speaker 1: slaughterhouse videos and you know the video I mentioned, and 1408 01:16:34,960 --> 01:16:38,760 Speaker 1: that doesn't last, right, Like, yeah, I can't last? So right, 1409 01:16:38,800 --> 01:16:41,479 Speaker 1: you you put a video up online of a bunch 1410 01:16:41,479 --> 01:16:44,040 Speaker 1: of coyoties that were killed in a kyote contest in 1411 01:16:44,120 --> 01:16:46,680 Speaker 1: you recruit somebody to your ideology that way, and they 1412 01:16:46,720 --> 01:16:49,120 Speaker 1: become an activist. They may get a year or two 1413 01:16:49,160 --> 01:16:51,720 Speaker 1: down the road and not understand why they believe what 1414 01:16:51,760 --> 01:16:54,800 Speaker 1: they believe. And you know what, I'm hoping that that 1415 01:16:54,880 --> 01:16:57,680 Speaker 1: I'm the person who gets to talk to them and say, hey, 1416 01:16:57,720 --> 01:16:59,800 Speaker 1: look I agree with you about the contest, but now 1417 01:17:00,280 --> 01:17:03,400 Speaker 1: let me tell you about another aspect of this. And 1418 01:17:03,400 --> 01:17:05,679 Speaker 1: and I don't need you. I don't need that person 1419 01:17:05,680 --> 01:17:09,799 Speaker 1: to become a hunter to to to like or a trapper. 1420 01:17:10,680 --> 01:17:13,800 Speaker 1: But if I can bring to them the same kind 1421 01:17:13,840 --> 01:17:16,560 Speaker 1: of complexity or that the idea that there is complexity 1422 01:17:16,600 --> 01:17:22,519 Speaker 1: to this um, then that's a that's that's success, right, Um, yeah, 1423 01:17:22,520 --> 01:17:24,840 Speaker 1: no it isn't. It's well, I think what you just 1424 01:17:24,880 --> 01:17:28,200 Speaker 1: described as what I hope can continue to kind of 1425 01:17:28,240 --> 01:17:30,000 Speaker 1: be the norm, and what I was trying to maybe 1426 01:17:30,120 --> 01:17:32,280 Speaker 1: what I hoped in my mind's eye, like may be 1427 01:17:32,400 --> 01:17:37,960 Speaker 1: displayed with Paula Sheer personally, is that hunting activism can 1428 01:17:38,000 --> 01:17:43,519 Speaker 1: be It can be agnostic. Hunting activism can be just 1429 01:17:43,840 --> 01:17:47,960 Speaker 1: us talking about what our value systems and and how 1430 01:17:48,040 --> 01:17:52,960 Speaker 1: we see conservation. It doesn't need to be emotional. Um, 1431 01:17:53,000 --> 01:17:55,920 Speaker 1: screw the anti screw the libs, screw the you know, 1432 01:17:56,560 --> 01:17:59,160 Speaker 1: hold onto. It doesn't need to be that. And in fact, 1433 01:17:59,320 --> 01:18:02,800 Speaker 1: it's very we have a better chance of winning over 1434 01:18:02,880 --> 01:18:05,760 Speaker 1: the non hunter, which is at some levels who we 1435 01:18:05,880 --> 01:18:09,040 Speaker 1: ultimately want to be talking to if we approach our 1436 01:18:09,040 --> 01:18:12,960 Speaker 1: own activism, you know, with with our whole heart and 1437 01:18:12,960 --> 01:18:16,320 Speaker 1: and and our heads and our emotions, our emotion, but 1438 01:18:16,400 --> 01:18:20,160 Speaker 1: also our objectivity. Yes, exactly. And that's and that's where 1439 01:18:20,200 --> 01:18:21,880 Speaker 1: I think like, if we can if we can start 1440 01:18:21,920 --> 01:18:26,200 Speaker 1: to um think about the specific language that we're using, 1441 01:18:26,600 --> 01:18:30,280 Speaker 1: you know, and as an example, animal welfare, if we 1442 01:18:30,320 --> 01:18:32,840 Speaker 1: can start to use that to the to the non 1443 01:18:32,920 --> 01:18:37,439 Speaker 1: hunting public who might respond to that and who might 1444 01:18:37,520 --> 01:18:42,559 Speaker 1: kind of have a have a more automatic um sympathy 1445 01:18:42,600 --> 01:18:48,120 Speaker 1: to that term then you know, science based wildlife management 1446 01:18:48,200 --> 01:18:50,920 Speaker 1: for instance, then that's great. Then then I'll use that 1447 01:18:51,040 --> 01:18:55,160 Speaker 1: term and I'll emphasize how how hunters are animal welfaress 1448 01:18:55,160 --> 01:18:57,600 Speaker 1: and and we'll use that all then I'll and and 1449 01:18:57,720 --> 01:19:01,040 Speaker 1: you know, the byproduct or the the kind of happy 1450 01:19:01,080 --> 01:19:03,840 Speaker 1: side effect is that of that is that we're kind 1451 01:19:03,840 --> 01:19:06,400 Speaker 1: of taking that narrative by the reins and we're saying, 1452 01:19:06,680 --> 01:19:08,920 Speaker 1: you know, we're going to use that word, that term, 1453 01:19:08,960 --> 01:19:11,200 Speaker 1: and we're not We're going to remove one more from 1454 01:19:11,200 --> 01:19:15,719 Speaker 1: from the lexicon of of things that can against hunting, 1455 01:19:16,240 --> 01:19:19,719 Speaker 1: because as you said, you know, most of the public 1456 01:19:20,400 --> 01:19:23,479 Speaker 1: is not against hunting. Yeah, and so I want to 1457 01:19:23,520 --> 01:19:25,760 Speaker 1: meet them where they are. It's it's weird, right, It's 1458 01:19:25,800 --> 01:19:27,320 Speaker 1: like one of those things we said a couple I 1459 01:19:27,320 --> 01:19:28,800 Speaker 1: said a couple of weeks ago on this show. People 1460 01:19:28,840 --> 01:19:30,799 Speaker 1: will already know I say all the times like hunting. 1461 01:19:30,920 --> 01:19:36,000 Speaker 1: You can you can get acceptance social successans of hunting 1462 01:19:36,040 --> 01:19:39,679 Speaker 1: just by skinning it differently, by by approaching the question differently. 1463 01:19:39,760 --> 01:19:41,360 Speaker 1: I mean, you can get You could say, do you 1464 01:19:41,400 --> 01:19:44,519 Speaker 1: like killing contests or hunters? Go out and people you know, 1465 01:19:44,560 --> 01:19:47,240 Speaker 1: you would probably get five percent yes and percent no. 1466 01:19:47,920 --> 01:19:50,720 Speaker 1: You could be like, what about somebody who lives in 1467 01:19:50,760 --> 01:19:54,639 Speaker 1: Alaska and kills coyotes by the dozens and wears their 1468 01:19:54,680 --> 01:19:57,559 Speaker 1: fur and eats their flesh. And you would flip that 1469 01:19:58,680 --> 01:20:00,840 Speaker 1: the other way in terms of and that's where the 1470 01:20:00,960 --> 01:20:05,000 Speaker 1: survey data. Um. That's what it's finding, right, is that 1471 01:20:05,439 --> 01:20:08,599 Speaker 1: when you ask people individual motivations for hunting, the approval 1472 01:20:08,680 --> 01:20:12,160 Speaker 1: ratings are far different. Um. And there was a recent 1473 01:20:12,800 --> 01:20:16,439 Speaker 1: paper and uh that came out in an academic journal 1474 01:20:16,479 --> 01:20:20,640 Speaker 1: around the social license to hunt. And that was what 1475 01:20:20,680 --> 01:20:22,200 Speaker 1: it was sort of getting at, was when that when 1476 01:20:22,240 --> 01:20:25,839 Speaker 1: the public perceives that the that the purpose of hunting, 1477 01:20:26,360 --> 01:20:29,719 Speaker 1: so both the purpose and the outcome are certain things. 1478 01:20:30,520 --> 01:20:34,880 Speaker 1: And in this paper, I think somewhat problematically used the 1479 01:20:34,880 --> 01:20:38,120 Speaker 1: concept of trophy hunting, which has never been firmly defined, 1480 01:20:38,160 --> 01:20:41,000 Speaker 1: but they used that and found it was that Chris 1481 01:20:41,040 --> 01:20:44,760 Speaker 1: Dermot Yeah, and he's great. I mean, he's it's a 1482 01:20:44,840 --> 01:20:47,200 Speaker 1: super interesting paper. Um. Yeah, that's right. And you've had 1483 01:20:47,280 --> 01:20:50,439 Speaker 1: Kyle ortellon as well, I think, haven't you. Yeah, So 1484 01:20:50,720 --> 01:20:53,160 Speaker 1: it's great. Um. And that's exactly that's exactly what they're finding, 1485 01:20:53,200 --> 01:20:57,519 Speaker 1: right that depending on how you talk about it, um, people, 1486 01:20:58,400 --> 01:21:00,240 Speaker 1: you know, people respond to it differently, but in and 1487 01:21:00,439 --> 01:21:03,400 Speaker 1: I think to say that differently, people connect with it differently. Right, 1488 01:21:09,080 --> 01:21:11,479 Speaker 1: I try to think of, like, are there parallels in 1489 01:21:11,520 --> 01:21:17,639 Speaker 1: our culture where it's not like basketball. It's just it's 1490 01:21:17,680 --> 01:21:19,920 Speaker 1: not like there are a whole lot of like knitting, 1491 01:21:20,000 --> 01:21:22,680 Speaker 1: a whole lot of pastimes that a guy or might 1492 01:21:22,720 --> 01:21:27,080 Speaker 1: get into that he's thrust into this paradox or thrust 1493 01:21:27,160 --> 01:21:30,559 Speaker 1: into this more moral ambiguity where it's like, well, why 1494 01:21:30,560 --> 01:21:32,439 Speaker 1: do you It's cool with me if you do it 1495 01:21:32,560 --> 01:21:34,720 Speaker 1: this a way, but it's not cool. You know, if 1496 01:21:34,760 --> 01:21:37,200 Speaker 1: I play basketball and I shoot granny style, that's cool. 1497 01:21:37,640 --> 01:21:40,360 Speaker 1: If I shoot a hook shot, it's cool too, Like 1498 01:21:40,400 --> 01:21:44,040 Speaker 1: that's not Apple's apples that you're threatening their their entire 1499 01:21:44,400 --> 01:21:47,000 Speaker 1: philosophy of life because of that, right, And I think 1500 01:21:47,040 --> 01:21:48,800 Speaker 1: guns are that way too a little bit. I mean, 1501 01:21:49,000 --> 01:21:53,080 Speaker 1: it's all kind of a jumbalaya of bullshit in my opinion. 1502 01:21:53,120 --> 01:21:56,559 Speaker 1: But it's like it is for something that you can 1503 01:21:56,640 --> 01:22:01,040 Speaker 1: do as a pastime, which is a good explanation for like, well, 1504 01:22:01,040 --> 01:22:04,280 Speaker 1: how I spent a lot of my time. It's it's 1505 01:22:04,479 --> 01:22:07,519 Speaker 1: unique in the way that it's so madietable based on 1506 01:22:07,560 --> 01:22:11,720 Speaker 1: the way it's described. Oh absolutely yeah. And I mean 1507 01:22:12,520 --> 01:22:14,960 Speaker 1: maybe I'm sort of like a fly drawn to the 1508 01:22:15,280 --> 01:22:18,040 Speaker 1: to the lamp with this, but that's partly why I'm 1509 01:22:18,120 --> 01:22:21,960 Speaker 1: I enjoy it so much because it's it's difficult, and 1510 01:22:22,000 --> 01:22:24,840 Speaker 1: it's challenging and it and it um, it's it's not 1511 01:22:25,400 --> 01:22:27,240 Speaker 1: you don't just sort of untie your boots and leave 1512 01:22:27,280 --> 01:22:29,719 Speaker 1: it at the door when you come home. It chases 1513 01:22:29,720 --> 01:22:32,240 Speaker 1: you around all day and everything you're doing. And that's 1514 01:22:32,280 --> 01:22:34,760 Speaker 1: that's something that I enjoy about it, you know. And 1515 01:22:34,760 --> 01:22:36,840 Speaker 1: and why that I and they say why, I try 1516 01:22:36,880 --> 01:22:39,240 Speaker 1: to kind of figure out, well, how do I connect 1517 01:22:39,320 --> 01:22:41,320 Speaker 1: this with all different parts of my life, whether that's 1518 01:22:41,720 --> 01:22:45,200 Speaker 1: in my case, was my kind of academic pursuits or 1519 01:22:45,320 --> 01:22:49,679 Speaker 1: my um kind of social and political interests as well, 1520 01:22:49,720 --> 01:22:54,400 Speaker 1: you know, um, and and that that's, yeah, that is 1521 01:22:54,439 --> 01:22:56,479 Speaker 1: what kind of makes it really interesting to me. I 1522 01:22:56,479 --> 01:22:58,280 Speaker 1: think if it was, I think that's probably why I'm 1523 01:22:58,320 --> 01:23:02,160 Speaker 1: not interested in basketball or yeah, I mean that's probably 1524 01:23:02,160 --> 01:23:05,759 Speaker 1: why this podcast exists, because it's it's just infamite. Sometimes 1525 01:23:05,760 --> 01:23:08,320 Speaker 1: you just feel like you're you know, you're just talking 1526 01:23:08,320 --> 01:23:11,760 Speaker 1: in circles and it's just this intellectual game that you're 1527 01:23:11,760 --> 01:23:14,320 Speaker 1: playing with yourself just to to satiate your own need 1528 01:23:14,400 --> 01:23:17,679 Speaker 1: to explore things. Sometimes it feels like that I get 1529 01:23:17,720 --> 01:23:20,160 Speaker 1: that and some but sometimes you actually get somewhere where 1530 01:23:20,160 --> 01:23:22,920 Speaker 1: you may there is an epiphany and you do start 1531 01:23:22,960 --> 01:23:26,120 Speaker 1: to see your own activities in the woods differently. Yeah, 1532 01:23:26,200 --> 01:23:28,759 Speaker 1: and so I think it's probably fifty fifty half the time. 1533 01:23:29,240 --> 01:23:31,840 Speaker 1: At the time, I'm just spinning my wheels and trying 1534 01:23:31,840 --> 01:23:34,680 Speaker 1: to get there and sounded like maybe a little bit 1535 01:23:34,680 --> 01:23:38,960 Speaker 1: pretentious now and then, and half the time I'm you know, 1536 01:23:39,040 --> 01:23:43,080 Speaker 1: I'm getting somewhere. I'm digging in um and finding out 1537 01:23:43,680 --> 01:23:46,280 Speaker 1: why I think a certain way or why I react 1538 01:23:46,320 --> 01:23:49,679 Speaker 1: a certain way. Yeah, and I'm really happy. I mean, 1539 01:23:49,800 --> 01:23:52,640 Speaker 1: I don't know if this is I don't know to 1540 01:23:52,680 --> 01:23:55,280 Speaker 1: what extent this is, this is changing. I mean, I 1541 01:23:55,360 --> 01:23:58,080 Speaker 1: might talk to an eighty year old hunter who says 1542 01:23:58,120 --> 01:23:59,880 Speaker 1: no, no no, no, the honety. It's always been like this. 1543 01:24:00,000 --> 01:24:02,320 Speaker 1: There's always been pockets of hunting, the hunting community that 1544 01:24:02,360 --> 01:24:06,080 Speaker 1: have that have just fed off of this kind of 1545 01:24:06,280 --> 01:24:10,479 Speaker 1: um discussion and philosophical debate. So maybe it is, maybe 1546 01:24:10,479 --> 01:24:14,679 Speaker 1: it's you know, but I certainly am excited that that. 1547 01:24:15,320 --> 01:24:17,200 Speaker 1: I didn't think that I would be able to when 1548 01:24:17,200 --> 01:24:18,720 Speaker 1: I got into hunting, I didn't think that I'd be 1549 01:24:18,760 --> 01:24:23,920 Speaker 1: able to write, um, you know, things about the difference 1550 01:24:23,920 --> 01:24:26,400 Speaker 1: that intricate differences between animal rights and I'm a welfriend 1551 01:24:26,400 --> 01:24:28,080 Speaker 1: that if I did, anyone to read it. And I 1552 01:24:28,120 --> 01:24:31,519 Speaker 1: originally wrote this piece for them for Hunter Eats blog, 1553 01:24:31,560 --> 01:24:34,519 Speaker 1: and that was I thought like, oh, so there's actually 1554 01:24:35,000 --> 01:24:37,200 Speaker 1: companies and platforms out there that are that are moving 1555 01:24:37,200 --> 01:24:38,760 Speaker 1: this stuff along. And I mean then it was just 1556 01:24:39,000 --> 01:24:42,160 Speaker 1: it was just like I couldn't get enough of it, right, Yeah, Yeah, 1557 01:24:42,200 --> 01:24:46,759 Speaker 1: it's it's a different connection to hunting. You know, people ask, 1558 01:24:46,840 --> 01:24:49,400 Speaker 1: you know, what's this about, what's this show about? What's 1559 01:24:49,439 --> 01:24:51,320 Speaker 1: your you know, what angle do you take? I'm like, 1560 01:24:51,320 --> 01:24:54,599 Speaker 1: I don't trying. I'm trying. I just going. I'm going 1561 01:24:54,600 --> 01:24:56,599 Speaker 1: the way that's interesting to me. And that's the cool 1562 01:24:56,640 --> 01:24:59,519 Speaker 1: thing about this, that subject matter that you can't go 1563 01:24:59,600 --> 01:25:01,599 Speaker 1: just about. If you want to just get into the craft, 1564 01:25:02,080 --> 01:25:06,000 Speaker 1: go for it. Go go learn how to do every 1565 01:25:06,000 --> 01:25:08,280 Speaker 1: little intricate thing. If you want to get into how 1566 01:25:08,280 --> 01:25:10,640 Speaker 1: it affects our culture, jump there. If you want to 1567 01:25:10,640 --> 01:25:13,040 Speaker 1: get into how it affects our minds and the way 1568 01:25:13,080 --> 01:25:15,880 Speaker 1: we think about animals and think about values and why. 1569 01:25:16,000 --> 01:25:18,200 Speaker 1: I mean, you get you go any direction, it's there, 1570 01:25:18,200 --> 01:25:19,960 Speaker 1: and it's and it's all out that those discussions are 1571 01:25:20,000 --> 01:25:23,360 Speaker 1: all happening, right, um, and and I and I hope that, 1572 01:25:23,880 --> 01:25:26,720 Speaker 1: you know, as yeah, and we kind of um going 1573 01:25:26,760 --> 01:25:28,840 Speaker 1: off on a bunch of different tensions, but I was 1574 01:25:28,880 --> 01:25:30,679 Speaker 1: gonna get you. I was just gonna like we needed 1575 01:25:30,720 --> 01:25:34,320 Speaker 1: to explain rights versus welfare. Well, yeah, yeah, that's all 1576 01:25:34,360 --> 01:25:35,760 Speaker 1: I was going to kind of say. Here was that 1577 01:25:36,520 --> 01:25:39,280 Speaker 1: I hope that there's um, you know, I hope that 1578 01:25:39,760 --> 01:25:44,240 Speaker 1: somewhere out there people are writing about the history of 1579 01:25:44,280 --> 01:25:47,439 Speaker 1: the hunting the hunting conservation movement in the way that 1580 01:25:47,479 --> 01:25:50,040 Speaker 1: I dug into the animal rights movement and found when 1581 01:25:50,160 --> 01:25:51,880 Speaker 1: when I so to kind of go back to that, 1582 01:25:51,920 --> 01:25:55,080 Speaker 1: when I is this that a good time? We were 1583 01:25:55,160 --> 01:25:56,639 Speaker 1: driving on that, I was like, we gotta get back 1584 01:25:56,640 --> 01:25:58,760 Speaker 1: to that. How we went too far? So when I 1585 01:25:58,800 --> 01:26:02,519 Speaker 1: started looking into it, um the animal rights movement, I 1586 01:26:02,840 --> 01:26:05,960 Speaker 1: found that and I described as I found there was 1587 01:26:05,960 --> 01:26:08,800 Speaker 1: a pretty clear distinction in history between animal rights as 1588 01:26:08,840 --> 01:26:11,840 Speaker 1: a as a philosophy and animal rights that became what 1589 01:26:11,920 --> 01:26:14,000 Speaker 1: people now think of as the movement right as people 1590 01:26:14,000 --> 01:26:17,360 Speaker 1: associate with with Peter and um and he made society 1591 01:26:17,400 --> 01:26:20,200 Speaker 1: and different organizations and I didn't know that. I didn't 1592 01:26:20,240 --> 01:26:22,960 Speaker 1: know that they that they were kind of um distinct 1593 01:26:23,040 --> 01:26:25,360 Speaker 1: like that. When I look started looking into the history 1594 01:26:25,400 --> 01:26:29,160 Speaker 1: of the animal rights movement UM, because I was guilty 1595 01:26:29,160 --> 01:26:33,000 Speaker 1: of it. I used animal rights, animal welfare, all these 1596 01:26:33,000 --> 01:26:36,800 Speaker 1: things interchangeably. And I found that it emerged in the 1597 01:26:36,840 --> 01:26:39,720 Speaker 1: you know, in the eighteen hundreds M really as a 1598 01:26:39,760 --> 01:26:43,680 Speaker 1: way to focus on treating domestic farm animals better and 1599 01:26:43,720 --> 01:26:46,840 Speaker 1: as a way to end in many cases the live 1600 01:26:47,360 --> 01:26:51,639 Speaker 1: experimentation on animals for for scientific purposes. And I kind 1601 01:26:51,640 --> 01:26:54,439 Speaker 1: of looked at that and went and thought, who doesn't 1602 01:26:54,479 --> 01:26:57,920 Speaker 1: agree with that? You know, who doesn't who can't see 1603 01:26:58,200 --> 01:27:01,000 Speaker 1: themselves in that? And and so that was and then 1604 01:27:01,120 --> 01:27:02,720 Speaker 1: later it was it was as we kind of moved 1605 01:27:02,760 --> 01:27:08,799 Speaker 1: into the turned more into an organized political movement UM, 1606 01:27:08,840 --> 01:27:11,599 Speaker 1: and animal rights organizations at the time talked about that 1607 01:27:11,720 --> 01:27:14,240 Speaker 1: in the sense of that they needed to find some 1608 01:27:14,360 --> 01:27:19,200 Speaker 1: overarching moral argument that defined the whole movement, and that 1609 01:27:19,439 --> 01:27:24,160 Speaker 1: kind of moral argument became applying the concept of human 1610 01:27:24,280 --> 01:27:31,280 Speaker 1: rights to animals UM. And I find for me, UM, 1611 01:27:31,280 --> 01:27:33,439 Speaker 1: what I what I sort of take issue with more 1612 01:27:33,439 --> 01:27:36,400 Speaker 1: than anything I think is about the movement and the 1613 01:27:36,479 --> 01:27:41,519 Speaker 1: concept is that is thinking that we're going to apply 1614 01:27:41,640 --> 01:27:44,320 Speaker 1: what to me is an imperfect concept in human culture 1615 01:27:44,560 --> 01:27:48,720 Speaker 1: around rights and law to animals and that's how that's 1616 01:27:48,720 --> 01:27:52,360 Speaker 1: how we should define our interaction with animals. And I 1617 01:27:52,439 --> 01:27:56,360 Speaker 1: and I think, Um, I think I think that's missing 1618 01:27:56,400 --> 01:27:58,479 Speaker 1: something to me. I don't think that's that goes deep 1619 01:27:58,600 --> 01:28:00,639 Speaker 1: enough to be honest about how how we think about 1620 01:28:00,640 --> 01:28:03,840 Speaker 1: our interaction with animals. It's just it's just applying another 1621 01:28:03,960 --> 01:28:08,120 Speaker 1: kind of contrived idea, which is the concept of rights 1622 01:28:08,160 --> 01:28:10,519 Speaker 1: that can change and that has changed. You know, Yeah, 1623 01:28:10,720 --> 01:28:12,519 Speaker 1: there's so many you know. What was interesting to me 1624 01:28:12,520 --> 01:28:15,000 Speaker 1: in reading through your paper is that you kind of 1625 01:28:15,040 --> 01:28:19,360 Speaker 1: connected points in time. I guess in a way it 1626 01:28:19,439 --> 01:28:22,640 Speaker 1: kind of pulls the pulls away the veneer of this 1627 01:28:22,840 --> 01:28:26,840 Speaker 1: modern animal rights thought, that it's so sensationalized and it's 1628 01:28:26,840 --> 01:28:30,479 Speaker 1: so emotional, and it kind of grounds it into some 1629 01:28:30,680 --> 01:28:35,599 Speaker 1: really relevant places and time in our culture. I mean, 1630 01:28:35,600 --> 01:28:39,519 Speaker 1: you talk about UM in a in a book called 1631 01:28:39,640 --> 01:28:44,080 Speaker 1: from book called Second Nature the Animal Rights Controversy. There's 1632 01:28:44,080 --> 01:28:47,360 Speaker 1: a quote I'll say, this guy's his name is Alan 1633 01:28:47,439 --> 01:28:50,760 Speaker 1: hers Herskovi. Yeah, Yeah, he wins a he wins a 1634 01:28:50,760 --> 01:28:55,439 Speaker 1: Canadian organization called Truth About For Yeah hers Covici. UM 1635 01:28:56,240 --> 01:28:59,639 Speaker 1: suggests that after Biblical times, the first glimmers of concern 1636 01:28:59,720 --> 01:29:02,519 Speaker 1: for animals appear in the work of certain Greek and 1637 01:29:02,600 --> 01:29:05,920 Speaker 1: Roman writers who question the central role of man and creation. 1638 01:29:06,960 --> 01:29:12,839 Speaker 1: And this goes even further to philosophers like Pythagoras and 1639 01:29:12,840 --> 01:29:15,320 Speaker 1: and down the line to where they believe that humans 1640 01:29:15,360 --> 01:29:18,479 Speaker 1: have a fellowship with animals. So quote, if we kill 1641 01:29:18,560 --> 01:29:21,600 Speaker 1: them and eat their flesh, we commit injustice and impiety 1642 01:29:21,960 --> 01:29:25,800 Speaker 1: inasmuch as we are killing for our own kin. Right, 1643 01:29:25,880 --> 01:29:30,120 Speaker 1: So this is this is kind of deep in the 1644 01:29:30,160 --> 01:29:33,879 Speaker 1: way that we thought about our own humanity. Yeah, And 1645 01:29:33,880 --> 01:29:35,720 Speaker 1: and I think that one of the things to emphasize, 1646 01:29:35,760 --> 01:29:37,559 Speaker 1: and I think in some ways that comes back to 1647 01:29:37,600 --> 01:29:42,000 Speaker 1: how we started the conversation around um, the people now 1648 01:29:42,040 --> 01:29:45,960 Speaker 1: who kind of define the hunting community is that these 1649 01:29:46,200 --> 01:29:48,680 Speaker 1: ways of thinking. You know, he talks about Pythagoras, he 1650 01:29:48,720 --> 01:29:52,400 Speaker 1: was a Greek philosopher and Biblical times, and so a 1651 01:29:52,439 --> 01:29:56,160 Speaker 1: lot of the a lot of the knowledge and ideas 1652 01:29:56,280 --> 01:29:59,639 Speaker 1: that define that the animal rights movement kind of took 1653 01:29:59,720 --> 01:30:04,719 Speaker 1: up are very Western European. It became western, really Western 1654 01:30:04,720 --> 01:30:10,560 Speaker 1: European concepts right around the distinction between humans and animals 1655 01:30:11,080 --> 01:30:15,800 Speaker 1: or not, and the idea of of rights applying to 1656 01:30:16,200 --> 01:30:20,200 Speaker 1: you know, right, the rights of man that Thomas Pain's text, 1657 01:30:21,240 --> 01:30:23,800 Speaker 1: but but not all the and I won't speak to 1658 01:30:23,840 --> 01:30:27,280 Speaker 1: it because I'm not from any of these cultures, but 1659 01:30:28,000 --> 01:30:31,679 Speaker 1: there are hundreds and thousands of cultures in the world 1660 01:30:31,760 --> 01:30:36,400 Speaker 1: who don't have knowledge systems built on these concepts. And 1661 01:30:36,479 --> 01:30:38,880 Speaker 1: so at the end of the day, we also need 1662 01:30:38,920 --> 01:30:41,120 Speaker 1: to kind of realize that the concept of kind of 1663 01:30:41,160 --> 01:30:46,080 Speaker 1: animal rights is rooted in a very European way of thinking. 1664 01:30:46,920 --> 01:30:52,320 Speaker 1: Um that not all that, not all cultures share. Um. Well, 1665 01:30:52,320 --> 01:30:55,080 Speaker 1: when you connected to like said, Thomas Pain's rights a man, 1666 01:30:55,200 --> 01:30:59,560 Speaker 1: you you talk about how they explored this like emerging 1667 01:31:00,040 --> 01:31:03,320 Speaker 1: eagle concept of rights, you know, and then also how 1668 01:31:04,160 --> 01:31:07,360 Speaker 1: they apply that to the those same concepts to animals, 1669 01:31:07,400 --> 01:31:09,680 Speaker 1: and that again we still struggle with that today. I 1670 01:31:09,680 --> 01:31:12,080 Speaker 1: mean when you're talking about Thomas Pains of writing in 1671 01:31:14,160 --> 01:31:16,240 Speaker 1: but we're still looking at kind of like what's a 1672 01:31:16,360 --> 01:31:19,680 Speaker 1: human rights, what's an animal what's an animal right? How 1673 01:31:19,680 --> 01:31:22,760 Speaker 1: do we because we have basically dominion over animals, how 1674 01:31:22,760 --> 01:31:26,960 Speaker 1: do we apply our own morality to our interaction with them? 1675 01:31:27,040 --> 01:31:32,880 Speaker 1: These are all very real and very deserving topics. Um 1676 01:31:32,920 --> 01:31:34,840 Speaker 1: As you say at the end of this section of 1677 01:31:34,840 --> 01:31:38,320 Speaker 1: your paper that you know, anything that shaped over two 1678 01:31:38,360 --> 01:31:42,720 Speaker 1: thousand years deserves our consideration. Yeah, um, I think that's 1679 01:31:42,760 --> 01:31:46,639 Speaker 1: probably the thesis right here that Yeah, absolutely, yeah, totally 1680 01:31:46,720 --> 01:31:50,599 Speaker 1: and um and I think that that's actually a piece 1681 01:31:50,680 --> 01:31:52,800 Speaker 1: I wrote for truth about for at one point kind 1682 01:31:52,840 --> 01:31:55,360 Speaker 1: of was inspired by some of Alan's work sort of 1683 01:31:55,360 --> 01:31:57,960 Speaker 1: digs into this idea that a lot of the discussions 1684 01:31:57,960 --> 01:32:01,960 Speaker 1: that we have around this, including um, you know, you know, 1685 01:32:02,000 --> 01:32:05,080 Speaker 1: many discussions we have around these topics start from the 1686 01:32:05,120 --> 01:32:11,280 Speaker 1: place that killing is wrong and death is um some 1687 01:32:11,400 --> 01:32:15,720 Speaker 1: version of injustice, immoral, unethical right. And we start from 1688 01:32:15,720 --> 01:32:19,879 Speaker 1: that place that that death is by a definition harm 1689 01:32:19,920 --> 01:32:23,280 Speaker 1: and when we take time to actually question that, and 1690 01:32:23,400 --> 01:32:25,120 Speaker 1: and then of course we get into people, you know, 1691 01:32:25,240 --> 01:32:27,640 Speaker 1: could people who criticize hunting will say, well, you're just 1692 01:32:27,680 --> 01:32:31,479 Speaker 1: trying to justify killing. But when we think about that, 1693 01:32:32,520 --> 01:32:36,400 Speaker 1: it's not a it's not a universal truth, and it's 1694 01:32:36,400 --> 01:32:40,920 Speaker 1: not a even if you study ethics, that killing is 1695 01:32:40,960 --> 01:32:43,280 Speaker 1: wrong and that death is wrong, that comes from a 1696 01:32:43,360 --> 01:32:48,519 Speaker 1: very specific intellectual tradition around ethics. Do you know that 1697 01:32:48,560 --> 01:32:50,599 Speaker 1: the concept of doing harm to others and there if 1698 01:32:50,640 --> 01:32:53,599 Speaker 1: you take take a life, that's harm and therefore it's wrong. 1699 01:32:53,680 --> 01:32:56,280 Speaker 1: But I think we really have to go back further 1700 01:32:56,320 --> 01:32:58,320 Speaker 1: than that I think we really need to strip that back, 1701 01:32:58,360 --> 01:32:59,800 Speaker 1: like you say, take that veneer off of that, and 1702 01:33:00,000 --> 01:33:02,760 Speaker 1: as go back further on that and say, you know, 1703 01:33:03,280 --> 01:33:05,360 Speaker 1: is all death wrong? I mean this, and I mean 1704 01:33:05,400 --> 01:33:09,439 Speaker 1: maybe we don't want to get into this cancer. But 1705 01:33:09,479 --> 01:33:13,400 Speaker 1: that's the question, right, is it? Is it inherently again? 1706 01:33:13,520 --> 01:33:16,120 Speaker 1: Is it injustice and moral wrong? Whatever the word is 1707 01:33:16,160 --> 01:33:19,200 Speaker 1: that you would use, because I don't think. I think 1708 01:33:19,240 --> 01:33:21,240 Speaker 1: we do a disservice to the conversation by taking that 1709 01:33:21,320 --> 01:33:23,640 Speaker 1: for granted and starting there, because what we what we 1710 01:33:23,680 --> 01:33:26,400 Speaker 1: then do is we start to build arguments on a 1711 01:33:26,479 --> 01:33:31,360 Speaker 1: foundation that we haven't actually laid ourselves and don't understand ourselves. Um. 1712 01:33:31,400 --> 01:33:34,160 Speaker 1: And I think that's something that I that That's what 1713 01:33:34,600 --> 01:33:39,200 Speaker 1: sometimes bothers me about the animal rights discussions is it's 1714 01:33:39,360 --> 01:33:41,760 Speaker 1: it's not the idea, it's not the the intent, it's 1715 01:33:41,760 --> 01:33:44,960 Speaker 1: not the position. Is that I don't when people talk 1716 01:33:45,000 --> 01:33:47,880 Speaker 1: about violating the rights of animals, you know, I'm not. 1717 01:33:48,040 --> 01:33:50,040 Speaker 1: I'm not violating the right of an animal. I'm doing 1718 01:33:50,080 --> 01:33:53,800 Speaker 1: something far more profound. I'm killing it. Yeah, that's to 1719 01:33:53,920 --> 01:33:57,680 Speaker 1: me much more serious than violating its rights. And I 1720 01:33:57,720 --> 01:34:01,840 Speaker 1: think we need to better understand and and articulate are 1721 01:34:01,880 --> 01:34:04,960 Speaker 1: feeling understandings where those come from about about death and 1722 01:34:05,040 --> 01:34:07,840 Speaker 1: killing and those interactions. Right, Yeah, that's where I think 1723 01:34:07,840 --> 01:34:09,920 Speaker 1: when we talk about, you know, those conversations with folks 1724 01:34:09,920 --> 01:34:13,160 Speaker 1: like Paul, you've gotta start where they start, you know, 1725 01:34:13,280 --> 01:34:15,679 Speaker 1: But then you eventually just start peeling away the layers 1726 01:34:15,720 --> 01:34:17,840 Speaker 1: and get to the death conversation. That's just where it 1727 01:34:17,880 --> 01:34:21,960 Speaker 1: has to go. And to your point, you know, when 1728 01:34:22,040 --> 01:34:24,160 Speaker 1: you think about animal rights, what's the animal have the 1729 01:34:24,240 --> 01:34:29,439 Speaker 1: right to do? Right? The animal has really the right too, 1730 01:34:31,240 --> 01:34:33,200 Speaker 1: not a whole lot based on how we move around 1731 01:34:33,240 --> 01:34:36,080 Speaker 1: the how based on how we build roads, and based 1732 01:34:36,120 --> 01:34:37,960 Speaker 1: on how we fly in the air, and how based 1733 01:34:38,000 --> 01:34:42,240 Speaker 1: on how we move around we are the we apply, 1734 01:34:43,640 --> 01:34:46,160 Speaker 1: you know, to the environment our own based on our 1735 01:34:46,160 --> 01:34:50,360 Speaker 1: own needs. And so like you said, there, me driving 1736 01:34:50,360 --> 01:34:53,080 Speaker 1: down the road may violate that animals right to get 1737 01:34:53,120 --> 01:34:55,680 Speaker 1: it be in that road, Like the fact that the 1738 01:34:55,760 --> 01:34:58,040 Speaker 1: road is even there may violate in and of itself 1739 01:34:58,080 --> 01:35:00,160 Speaker 1: that animals right to move through that area with out 1740 01:35:00,280 --> 01:35:04,280 Speaker 1: some imminent harm from me. Right, Like that's and and 1741 01:35:04,560 --> 01:35:08,800 Speaker 1: it and it violates the habitats right to exist without 1742 01:35:08,800 --> 01:35:10,760 Speaker 1: a road peeling through it? Right, And I think that 1743 01:35:10,760 --> 01:35:13,680 Speaker 1: that's another way that I'd like to see And I 1744 01:35:13,680 --> 01:35:15,960 Speaker 1: won't pretend to be an expert on the animal rights 1745 01:35:16,840 --> 01:35:19,400 Speaker 1: history and movement at all, but that's something that I 1746 01:35:19,479 --> 01:35:22,559 Speaker 1: have not seen as much discussion. I'd like to see 1747 01:35:22,720 --> 01:35:26,320 Speaker 1: a bit more kind of discussion around that. Is it's 1748 01:35:26,800 --> 01:35:31,200 Speaker 1: what what about habitat rights then or habitat welfare and 1749 01:35:31,320 --> 01:35:33,479 Speaker 1: and you know, as it were like, how do we 1750 01:35:33,560 --> 01:35:36,040 Speaker 1: kind of then start to talk about the rights of 1751 01:35:36,320 --> 01:35:38,720 Speaker 1: clean water and and and there In fact, there are 1752 01:35:39,280 --> 01:35:44,439 Speaker 1: there are cases where in Australia, I believe communities are 1753 01:35:45,360 --> 01:35:49,800 Speaker 1: designating areas of land and water legal entities under the 1754 01:35:49,920 --> 01:35:53,120 Speaker 1: under law, and so they are then those areas of 1755 01:35:53,160 --> 01:35:56,920 Speaker 1: habitat are are very literally entitled to the rights that 1756 01:35:56,920 --> 01:36:00,200 Speaker 1: people would be. Yeah, and I think there's you know, 1757 01:36:00,240 --> 01:36:03,320 Speaker 1: there's discussion around well, isn't the rights framework still just 1758 01:36:03,439 --> 01:36:06,960 Speaker 1: as as flawed, But it's a fascinating approach to them 1759 01:36:07,120 --> 01:36:10,640 Speaker 1: to extending going beyond what is the common critique of 1760 01:36:10,640 --> 01:36:13,360 Speaker 1: the animal rights movement, which is that it's really focused 1761 01:36:13,360 --> 01:36:16,759 Speaker 1: on the dear and not dear and applying this idea 1762 01:36:16,840 --> 01:36:21,439 Speaker 1: to to habitat and to landscapes. And I think that's fascinating, Yeah, 1763 01:36:21,439 --> 01:36:25,320 Speaker 1: because they I think, you know it, some things are 1764 01:36:25,400 --> 01:36:28,559 Speaker 1: kind of spiraling towards each other or you know, careening 1765 01:36:28,560 --> 01:36:30,760 Speaker 1: towards each other here in ways that they that even 1766 01:36:30,840 --> 01:36:33,720 Speaker 1: they don't understand, because if you have you line up 1767 01:36:33,760 --> 01:36:37,519 Speaker 1: animal rights with environmentalism and the way that both of 1768 01:36:37,520 --> 01:36:40,720 Speaker 1: these ideologies are kind of just driving towards each other 1769 01:36:40,760 --> 01:36:42,880 Speaker 1: where they might soon crash, and also in some ways 1770 01:36:42,880 --> 01:36:46,120 Speaker 1: where they're connected. So people talk about, you know, meat 1771 01:36:46,360 --> 01:36:51,120 Speaker 1: and how meat just the commercial realization of large scale 1772 01:36:51,160 --> 01:36:56,719 Speaker 1: animal agriculture um contributes to climate change, and that also 1773 01:36:56,800 --> 01:36:59,960 Speaker 1: becomes we couple that together with animal rights, and then 1774 01:37:00,360 --> 01:37:04,800 Speaker 1: I've seen guys like Paul the Sheer trip over those things, 1775 01:37:04,840 --> 01:37:06,960 Speaker 1: like they don't understand the origins of both of those 1776 01:37:06,960 --> 01:37:10,519 Speaker 1: thought processes and how they came to couple them together. 1777 01:37:10,960 --> 01:37:13,559 Speaker 1: But they're just part of kind of the dogma. They're 1778 01:37:13,640 --> 01:37:16,400 Speaker 1: part of the playbook, and so they get connected in 1779 01:37:16,400 --> 01:37:19,160 Speaker 1: a way that really doesn't make a whole whole lot 1780 01:37:19,240 --> 01:37:21,479 Speaker 1: of sense, because all you have to say is uh, 1781 01:37:21,520 --> 01:37:24,160 Speaker 1: And as we've already discussed in this show, all you 1782 01:37:24,160 --> 01:37:27,000 Speaker 1: have to say is, well, if if you stop eating animals, 1783 01:37:27,040 --> 01:37:28,960 Speaker 1: you gotta eat something, and that means you've got to 1784 01:37:29,000 --> 01:37:31,639 Speaker 1: destroy habitat, and that means you've gotta kill a lot 1785 01:37:31,640 --> 01:37:33,800 Speaker 1: of animals, and that means you've got to displace a 1786 01:37:33,800 --> 01:37:35,840 Speaker 1: lot of other animals that will die of starvation or 1787 01:37:35,880 --> 01:37:38,600 Speaker 1: die by getting hit by a car. And so and 1788 01:37:38,640 --> 01:37:41,000 Speaker 1: that was actually something that I found really interesting. He 1789 01:37:41,120 --> 01:37:43,719 Speaker 1: mentioned he at some point he said, you know, he said, 1790 01:37:44,840 --> 01:37:47,759 Speaker 1: I'm paraphrasing, but he said, um, you know, vegans aren't stupid. 1791 01:37:47,800 --> 01:37:50,360 Speaker 1: We don't we don't think that we would value that 1792 01:37:50,360 --> 01:37:52,599 Speaker 1: that that a single bug would be at the same 1793 01:37:52,680 --> 01:37:55,679 Speaker 1: value as a single elk. And that was so fascinating 1794 01:37:55,680 --> 01:37:59,400 Speaker 1: to me because I thought, but that's interesting because that's 1795 01:37:59,400 --> 01:38:03,479 Speaker 1: where I actually fundamentally disagree um as and as a 1796 01:38:03,560 --> 01:38:08,200 Speaker 1: concept that when I think, when I think about natural processes, 1797 01:38:08,920 --> 01:38:10,320 Speaker 1: you know, and you brought this up with that in 1798 01:38:10,320 --> 01:38:15,040 Speaker 1: that conversation around whether that's pollination or nutrient cycling, um, 1799 01:38:15,560 --> 01:38:18,120 Speaker 1: you know, the transport of pollutants on air currents, whatever 1800 01:38:18,160 --> 01:38:21,679 Speaker 1: the case is. I'm thinking about it on these process levels. 1801 01:38:22,360 --> 01:38:26,439 Speaker 1: And so I don't think about clearing thousands of acres 1802 01:38:26,439 --> 01:38:30,280 Speaker 1: from monoculture necessarily as only as the damage being measured 1803 01:38:30,280 --> 01:38:32,679 Speaker 1: in only the some of the bugs that are killed 1804 01:38:32,680 --> 01:38:37,000 Speaker 1: in the bird's nest, that are destroyed. But the interruption 1805 01:38:37,040 --> 01:38:42,680 Speaker 1: of processes um, and to me then it's um that 1806 01:38:43,360 --> 01:38:46,679 Speaker 1: ends up being primo profound. But I but I also 1807 01:38:46,720 --> 01:38:48,880 Speaker 1: don't like to get into this balance sheet thing of 1808 01:38:49,640 --> 01:38:51,639 Speaker 1: you know what, I killed an elk, Well, I mowed 1809 01:38:51,640 --> 01:38:54,360 Speaker 1: down a bunch of field mice. Well, I don't like 1810 01:38:54,439 --> 01:38:57,160 Speaker 1: to get into that because I think it's I don't 1811 01:38:57,240 --> 01:39:00,559 Speaker 1: I don't see that bringing us to better understanding. Yeah, 1812 01:39:00,600 --> 01:39:03,080 Speaker 1: And I think, you know, that's one thing when I listen, 1813 01:39:03,280 --> 01:39:05,519 Speaker 1: or I at least think back, because I can't listen back, 1814 01:39:05,520 --> 01:39:07,960 Speaker 1: but I think back to that conversation. I think all 1815 01:39:08,000 --> 01:39:10,439 Speaker 1: all you get there with with somebody like Paul as 1816 01:39:10,479 --> 01:39:12,800 Speaker 1: you say, like you get to admit that there are 1817 01:39:12,960 --> 01:39:15,800 Speaker 1: levels too things because it's not the People for the 1818 01:39:15,800 --> 01:39:20,120 Speaker 1: Ethical Treatment of Animals depending, Like, that's not what it's called, 1819 01:39:20,520 --> 01:39:24,000 Speaker 1: because that would be yeah, yeah, it's like pe tad, 1820 01:39:24,200 --> 01:39:25,960 Speaker 1: you know, we should start selling called the People for 1821 01:39:26,000 --> 01:39:29,439 Speaker 1: the Ethical Treatment of Animals depending, right, Like, that's not 1822 01:39:29,479 --> 01:39:32,200 Speaker 1: what they're saying, that's not what the social movement says. 1823 01:39:32,320 --> 01:39:36,360 Speaker 1: The social movement is absolutist and its nature and the 1824 01:39:36,360 --> 01:39:39,080 Speaker 1: way that it presents the conundru it's either you're a 1825 01:39:39,160 --> 01:39:43,040 Speaker 1: murderer or you're not. But then the the kind of 1826 01:39:43,080 --> 01:39:45,080 Speaker 1: the tip for tat that you explain there, all that 1827 01:39:45,120 --> 01:39:48,120 Speaker 1: does is strip away that absolutism. It just takes it away. 1828 01:39:48,160 --> 01:39:50,479 Speaker 1: It's like, there's no way that stands up to any 1829 01:39:50,520 --> 01:39:55,160 Speaker 1: criticism at all UM or any intellectual an intellectual debate. 1830 01:39:55,520 --> 01:39:59,120 Speaker 1: Most absolutism doesn't anyway. But yeah, and I and I 1831 01:39:59,160 --> 01:40:01,080 Speaker 1: think that that's like when I think, you know, what 1832 01:40:01,160 --> 01:40:04,439 Speaker 1: do we learn about because it should always be some 1833 01:40:04,520 --> 01:40:06,639 Speaker 1: takeaway for ourselves to right and what do we learn 1834 01:40:06,680 --> 01:40:09,519 Speaker 1: about our own community in this? And I think it's 1835 01:40:09,640 --> 01:40:14,560 Speaker 1: it's it's the same lesson. It's you know, absoluteist and 1836 01:40:14,880 --> 01:40:17,200 Speaker 1: you're kind of you know, and those those types of arguments. 1837 01:40:17,240 --> 01:40:21,439 Speaker 1: They're appealing to us because we feel like safer and 1838 01:40:21,520 --> 01:40:24,519 Speaker 1: saying something that we feel like can apply across every board. 1839 01:40:25,600 --> 01:40:28,000 Speaker 1: But it doesn't. And so I think for the hunting 1840 01:40:28,000 --> 01:40:31,800 Speaker 1: community it's the same lesson is it's it's let's not 1841 01:40:31,920 --> 01:40:36,640 Speaker 1: be if let's not shy away from um the intricacies 1842 01:40:36,640 --> 01:40:40,000 Speaker 1: and the complexities of these things, because we are capable 1843 01:40:40,160 --> 01:40:42,880 Speaker 1: of it. We have shown that for many, many years 1844 01:40:42,880 --> 01:40:45,400 Speaker 1: that we're capable of dealing with those things and meeting 1845 01:40:45,439 --> 01:40:50,120 Speaker 1: them head on. Um. And so let's not yet's not 1846 01:40:50,160 --> 01:40:52,320 Speaker 1: do that ourselves, right, Yeah, I think in your paper, 1847 01:40:52,880 --> 01:40:54,679 Speaker 1: I mean you can kind of like you can play 1848 01:40:54,760 --> 01:40:56,840 Speaker 1: mad Lives with your paper and just take the word 1849 01:40:56,880 --> 01:40:59,000 Speaker 1: animal rights out and put in hunting and you get 1850 01:40:59,040 --> 01:41:05,920 Speaker 1: the same. Ye, So you have in here. That's it, man. 1851 01:41:05,960 --> 01:41:08,639 Speaker 1: You can just it's interchangeable, but it is, like you said. 1852 01:41:08,640 --> 01:41:12,080 Speaker 1: By the nineteen seventies, animal rights advocates begin to recognize 1853 01:41:12,120 --> 01:41:14,720 Speaker 1: that they needed to move away from what her her 1854 01:41:14,760 --> 01:41:19,400 Speaker 1: Skevici describes as a focus on individual problems to develop 1855 01:41:19,439 --> 01:41:24,000 Speaker 1: a comprehensive moral argument for animal rights. Now, you could 1856 01:41:24,000 --> 01:41:28,040 Speaker 1: take away the word animal rights and say Ben O'Brien 1857 01:41:28,400 --> 01:41:32,439 Speaker 1: describes a focus, you know, describes a focus on individual problems, 1858 01:41:32,439 --> 01:41:35,120 Speaker 1: and we need to develop a more comprehensive moral argument 1859 01:41:35,240 --> 01:41:38,600 Speaker 1: for hunting. You could do the same thing. Because conservation 1860 01:41:39,400 --> 01:41:43,439 Speaker 1: is regional and its ecosystem based, and you know, kyote 1861 01:41:43,600 --> 01:41:48,040 Speaker 1: killing contests are different in different settings. Um. So it's 1862 01:41:48,080 --> 01:41:52,280 Speaker 1: either this comprehensive moral argument for hunting, or we address 1863 01:41:52,360 --> 01:41:56,439 Speaker 1: individual ecosystem problems and individual problems with wildlife management in 1864 01:41:56,479 --> 01:42:00,439 Speaker 1: the context of where they are. Yeah, yeah, and we've 1865 01:42:00,680 --> 01:42:01,960 Speaker 1: and this is this the thing that it might be 1866 01:42:01,960 --> 01:42:04,960 Speaker 1: interesting to hear you talk about. We we have gotten 1867 01:42:04,960 --> 01:42:08,599 Speaker 1: into this idea of guard the gate on this show before, 1868 01:42:08,760 --> 01:42:13,280 Speaker 1: which means we had a California bear band bill that 1869 01:42:13,320 --> 01:42:16,160 Speaker 1: came up a few weeks ago. And and I've talked 1870 01:42:16,200 --> 01:42:19,559 Speaker 1: about some of the logical fallacies around the slippery slope, 1871 01:42:19,600 --> 01:42:21,880 Speaker 1: and you know, whether you really think that's a fallacy 1872 01:42:21,960 --> 01:42:25,599 Speaker 1: is probably a different conversation. But I go back and forth, 1873 01:42:25,640 --> 01:42:29,120 Speaker 1: and I will admit to vacillating between guard the gate 1874 01:42:29,320 --> 01:42:32,559 Speaker 1: as as something as a philosophy of like don't let 1875 01:42:32,600 --> 01:42:34,559 Speaker 1: them take an inch, because they'll take it all in 1876 01:42:34,680 --> 01:42:38,519 Speaker 1: terms of animal rights activists and legislation, but then also 1877 01:42:38,680 --> 01:42:42,120 Speaker 1: within the within the conversation like we're doing here. You 1878 01:42:42,160 --> 01:42:45,479 Speaker 1: can't you don't want to guard the gate intellectually, but 1879 01:42:45,800 --> 01:42:48,519 Speaker 1: you do have you do have animal rights groups that 1880 01:42:48,600 --> 01:42:51,800 Speaker 1: will legislatively take an inch and then take another inch, 1881 01:42:51,840 --> 01:42:54,559 Speaker 1: then take another inch, then take another inch, And so 1882 01:42:54,640 --> 01:42:57,760 Speaker 1: there is like a paradox in there. I think, oh, yeah, 1883 01:42:58,400 --> 01:43:01,519 Speaker 1: there's totally a paradox. And I mean, and I do 1884 01:43:01,560 --> 01:43:04,360 Speaker 1: it all the time. Like I try to preface a 1885 01:43:04,400 --> 01:43:07,360 Speaker 1: lot of these things by saying, you know that I'll 1886 01:43:07,400 --> 01:43:10,960 Speaker 1: take full ownership of my own hypocrisies. Um, because that 1887 01:43:11,040 --> 01:43:13,680 Speaker 1: also allows me to just have them as much as 1888 01:43:13,720 --> 01:43:15,760 Speaker 1: I want, because I say I can, I can, I 1889 01:43:15,760 --> 01:43:22,639 Speaker 1: can own them. That's okay. Now, self awareness is good. Hey, Hey, 1890 01:43:22,720 --> 01:43:24,519 Speaker 1: you know, Paul, I'm an asshole, okay, And you know, 1891 01:43:24,640 --> 01:43:28,080 Speaker 1: I'll go to all kinds of moral acrobatic like like 1892 01:43:28,080 --> 01:43:31,439 Speaker 1: like acrobatics to justify why in this case it's okay 1893 01:43:31,479 --> 01:43:34,320 Speaker 1: for me to make a comprehensive moral argument, but in 1894 01:43:34,360 --> 01:43:36,080 Speaker 1: every other case you shouldn't do it right at all. 1895 01:43:36,560 --> 01:43:41,320 Speaker 1: But yeah, it is a paradox. And and I, you know, 1896 01:43:42,080 --> 01:43:44,719 Speaker 1: to just be totally honest about it, I found myself 1897 01:43:45,000 --> 01:43:47,360 Speaker 1: not identifying with the guard the gate kind of approach 1898 01:43:47,439 --> 01:43:49,680 Speaker 1: because um, and it comes back comes back to the 1899 01:43:50,000 --> 01:43:51,880 Speaker 1: framing piece a little bit. For me. I don't like 1900 01:43:52,080 --> 01:43:56,840 Speaker 1: the idea that of a sort of offense between us 1901 01:43:56,880 --> 01:44:01,519 Speaker 1: and them. You know, a gate necessary by definition, implies 1902 01:44:02,360 --> 01:44:05,680 Speaker 1: someone's in someone's out. Um. And I get that it's 1903 01:44:05,680 --> 01:44:08,519 Speaker 1: of course a metaphor, but but I think, um, but 1904 01:44:08,640 --> 01:44:13,000 Speaker 1: I mean, there there's also a lot of discussion out 1905 01:44:13,000 --> 01:44:16,000 Speaker 1: there about how the metaphors that we use are taken 1906 01:44:16,080 --> 01:44:18,720 Speaker 1: up by the public, and to me, I think that 1907 01:44:18,760 --> 01:44:21,920 Speaker 1: this idea that we are we are guarding and therefore 1908 01:44:22,040 --> 01:44:28,720 Speaker 1: um preventing or admitting depending on certain you know, criteria, 1909 01:44:28,960 --> 01:44:33,000 Speaker 1: I find that that's perhaps not the way to connect 1910 01:44:33,040 --> 01:44:36,599 Speaker 1: with with the people who are not trying to storm 1911 01:44:36,640 --> 01:44:39,720 Speaker 1: the gate, but they're they're certainly watching what's going on, 1912 01:44:40,040 --> 01:44:43,160 Speaker 1: and they're not coming in either because because we are 1913 01:44:43,800 --> 01:44:45,840 Speaker 1: presenting it as a as a as a gate, as 1914 01:44:45,880 --> 01:44:47,840 Speaker 1: a as a sort of a barricade to them. And 1915 01:44:47,880 --> 01:44:51,519 Speaker 1: I think, to me, I'm much more I feel like, 1916 01:44:52,400 --> 01:44:54,560 Speaker 1: you know s B two fIF two, that is the 1917 01:44:54,600 --> 01:44:57,840 Speaker 1: bear hunting bill in California that got struck down, and 1918 01:44:58,840 --> 01:45:01,559 Speaker 1: you know British Columbia they did ban the grizzly hunt. 1919 01:45:02,280 --> 01:45:06,120 Speaker 1: It was probably not the best move scientifically, but they 1920 01:45:06,120 --> 01:45:11,280 Speaker 1: responded to social pressure, you know. And so I feel 1921 01:45:11,360 --> 01:45:14,559 Speaker 1: that like, what are if I kind of think about 1922 01:45:14,600 --> 01:45:17,880 Speaker 1: the different approaches to this and what I think is 1923 01:45:17,880 --> 01:45:20,360 Speaker 1: a better way for the hunting world to go. I 1924 01:45:20,400 --> 01:45:23,559 Speaker 1: think that we can respond to things as they come up, 1925 01:45:23,720 --> 01:45:27,360 Speaker 1: and in many cases we've shown a real ability to 1926 01:45:27,680 --> 01:45:31,599 Speaker 1: respond well, and to prevent the inch from being taken. 1927 01:45:32,840 --> 01:45:35,439 Speaker 1: But I think it's important that I think it's worth 1928 01:45:35,479 --> 01:45:39,920 Speaker 1: doing it in that way and not risking the idea 1929 01:45:40,000 --> 01:45:44,519 Speaker 1: that we are kind of um dating or preventing, you know. 1930 01:45:46,520 --> 01:45:49,880 Speaker 1: I think it makes in two ideas that I've struggled 1931 01:45:49,920 --> 01:45:52,680 Speaker 1: with and openly because I think everybody. I mean, these 1932 01:45:52,720 --> 01:45:55,080 Speaker 1: are such broad topics that it would be hard not 1933 01:45:55,120 --> 01:45:58,160 Speaker 1: to struggle with them. But I always you know, I 1934 01:45:58,280 --> 01:46:00,960 Speaker 1: think of like guard to gate is a is a 1935 01:46:01,000 --> 01:46:04,800 Speaker 1: way to is a tangible way to guard against into 1936 01:46:04,800 --> 01:46:08,920 Speaker 1: heightening our awareness of what we would call attacks on 1937 01:46:08,960 --> 01:46:12,640 Speaker 1: our our the privilege of hunting, right banning something that 1938 01:46:12,680 --> 01:46:16,720 Speaker 1: we do based on you know, by people that do 1939 01:46:16,840 --> 01:46:20,479 Speaker 1: not do it basically. Um so, yeah, I want to 1940 01:46:20,479 --> 01:46:23,000 Speaker 1: guard the gate against that, and and how I guard 1941 01:46:23,040 --> 01:46:26,280 Speaker 1: the gate is not as probably it's probably a little 1942 01:46:26,320 --> 01:46:30,080 Speaker 1: bit more open than most people, so tangibly that that 1943 01:46:30,200 --> 01:46:32,600 Speaker 1: term works in that context. But if I remove it 1944 01:46:32,640 --> 01:46:36,320 Speaker 1: to and put it in a philosophical conversation or ideological 1945 01:46:36,320 --> 01:46:41,639 Speaker 1: conversations around hunting, it's useless. It's probably a harm more 1946 01:46:41,680 --> 01:46:44,519 Speaker 1: than a good. And so I like to have it. 1947 01:46:44,560 --> 01:46:47,439 Speaker 1: When somebody puts up a band you know, somebody in 1948 01:46:47,479 --> 01:46:50,280 Speaker 1: San Francisco wants to band bear hunting across the state. 1949 01:46:50,400 --> 01:46:53,840 Speaker 1: It becomes this thing, like, listen, we've got to guard 1950 01:46:53,840 --> 01:46:56,559 Speaker 1: against this thing fiercely so they know how much we 1951 01:46:56,720 --> 01:46:59,960 Speaker 1: value it. Um, that's a very gray area. That's very 1952 01:47:00,040 --> 01:47:04,120 Speaker 1: delicate thing to do without becoming an activist in the 1953 01:47:04,120 --> 01:47:06,960 Speaker 1: way that we decry Paul the Sheer might for being 1954 01:47:07,000 --> 01:47:09,840 Speaker 1: an activist. So it's a very delicate dance that one. 1955 01:47:09,880 --> 01:47:12,519 Speaker 1: But you know, in this conversation that's more philosophical, guard 1956 01:47:12,560 --> 01:47:15,080 Speaker 1: the gate is useless because you get nowhere. Yeah, that's 1957 01:47:15,080 --> 01:47:16,880 Speaker 1: a good point. That's that's a really good point and 1958 01:47:16,920 --> 01:47:19,840 Speaker 1: around and I think that is something and I think 1959 01:47:19,880 --> 01:47:21,200 Speaker 1: that was This is what you and I have been 1960 01:47:21,200 --> 01:47:24,799 Speaker 1: sort of saying for the whole time in a roundabout 1961 01:47:24,920 --> 01:47:27,720 Speaker 1: or like between kind of circling this is that it's 1962 01:47:27,720 --> 01:47:32,040 Speaker 1: okay because the conversation changes. In a philosophical discussion, we 1963 01:47:32,120 --> 01:47:36,120 Speaker 1: recognize that that's perhaps not the best analogy or metaphor 1964 01:47:36,200 --> 01:47:39,800 Speaker 1: to use. But when it comes to mobilizing hunters to 1965 01:47:39,840 --> 01:47:44,200 Speaker 1: take action and inspiring them to take action, um, maybe 1966 01:47:44,240 --> 01:47:47,919 Speaker 1: it is. It's instrumental in that way, and it shouldn't necessarily, 1967 01:47:47,920 --> 01:47:50,439 Speaker 1: And it comes back to this kind of comprehensive argument idea, 1968 01:47:50,520 --> 01:47:54,719 Speaker 1: right that it doesn't have to be relevant and perfect 1969 01:47:54,760 --> 01:47:59,240 Speaker 1: in every situation, every context. That's okay because it does 1970 01:47:59,280 --> 01:48:00,880 Speaker 1: what it's supposed to do and what we needed to 1971 01:48:00,920 --> 01:48:04,080 Speaker 1: do in some situations. And maybe that's and I think 1972 01:48:04,080 --> 01:48:05,559 Speaker 1: that what we just need to make sure we do 1973 01:48:05,680 --> 01:48:09,160 Speaker 1: is is emphasize that that is the case that we 1974 01:48:09,200 --> 01:48:12,479 Speaker 1: are using this particular framing or metaphor in this case 1975 01:48:13,600 --> 01:48:16,680 Speaker 1: and not in others. Yeah, well, and I just understand 1976 01:48:17,040 --> 01:48:20,680 Speaker 1: the pitfalls of that kind of that kind of like 1977 01:48:21,200 --> 01:48:24,639 Speaker 1: it becomes I guess, let me try to explain something 1978 01:48:24,640 --> 01:48:27,200 Speaker 1: I've seen in our industry, and this happens. This happens 1979 01:48:27,240 --> 01:48:30,720 Speaker 1: with the National Rifle Association. It happens with almost every 1980 01:48:30,760 --> 01:48:32,960 Speaker 1: every time there's a threat out there for something. People 1981 01:48:33,680 --> 01:48:37,160 Speaker 1: gather around things that are threatened and then they value 1982 01:48:37,720 --> 01:48:39,760 Speaker 1: and so it's you know, we this is this is 1983 01:48:39,840 --> 01:48:42,040 Speaker 1: true in our media, This is true in our society. 1984 01:48:42,080 --> 01:48:47,200 Speaker 1: You know, making someone scared makes them active. Often making 1985 01:48:47,200 --> 01:48:50,439 Speaker 1: someone angry makes them active. Um, and so in our 1986 01:48:50,479 --> 01:48:54,479 Speaker 1: attention economy and even in the conservation space. If I 1987 01:48:54,520 --> 01:48:56,800 Speaker 1: tell you public lands are at risk, every single day, 1988 01:48:56,800 --> 01:48:59,040 Speaker 1: every single minute. If you wake up not thinking about 1989 01:48:59,080 --> 01:49:02,160 Speaker 1: that somebody's taking your public land, you'll probably give me 1990 01:49:02,200 --> 01:49:06,360 Speaker 1: more money for my conservation group. You'll probably do more 1991 01:49:06,479 --> 01:49:09,040 Speaker 1: for me, rather than in the case of the bear 1992 01:49:09,120 --> 01:49:12,000 Speaker 1: band saying like this this not everything is bad, but 1993 01:49:12,040 --> 01:49:15,080 Speaker 1: this particular one, this one is bad. So fight like 1994 01:49:15,120 --> 01:49:18,360 Speaker 1: hell against this one, but be very you know, be 1995 01:49:18,920 --> 01:49:22,000 Speaker 1: very resident of reticent to fight like hell in other ways, 1996 01:49:22,120 --> 01:49:24,160 Speaker 1: like be a listener most of the time and a 1997 01:49:24,240 --> 01:49:26,960 Speaker 1: fight or what you need to be. So like one 1998 01:49:26,960 --> 01:49:28,360 Speaker 1: of the things that I think about that and I 1999 01:49:28,400 --> 01:49:30,759 Speaker 1: don't know, like interest in your thoughts on this too 2000 01:49:31,080 --> 01:49:34,479 Speaker 1: is And I'll to give some American examples, but there 2001 01:49:34,479 --> 01:49:36,000 Speaker 1: are many in Canada as well, and I'm sure you 2002 01:49:36,000 --> 01:49:41,439 Speaker 1: have Canadian listeners. But um, how do we then? Okay, 2003 01:49:41,439 --> 01:49:43,240 Speaker 1: how am I trying to say this? So we see 2004 01:49:43,520 --> 01:49:45,040 Speaker 1: just in the last of Ale while right we saw 2005 01:49:45,120 --> 01:49:49,519 Speaker 1: in the States tongas opened up and Arctic National Wildlife 2006 01:49:49,560 --> 01:49:52,360 Speaker 1: Refuge opened up, and in Canada, to give a ky example, 2007 01:49:52,360 --> 01:49:55,400 Speaker 1: we saw just yesterday or today approval of a of 2008 01:49:55,479 --> 01:49:58,040 Speaker 1: a sight sa dam in British Columbia. That's gonna have 2009 01:49:58,040 --> 01:50:02,000 Speaker 1: to devastating impacts on wildlife and lands, and how do 2010 01:50:02,080 --> 01:50:05,479 Speaker 1: we move to a point where you know, I think 2011 01:50:05,520 --> 01:50:07,880 Speaker 1: in a lot of cases that that that that issue, 2012 01:50:08,080 --> 01:50:09,839 Speaker 1: and we can think about the same thing with climate 2013 01:50:09,880 --> 01:50:14,680 Speaker 1: change unless unless a more kind of nebulous example. But 2014 01:50:14,720 --> 01:50:18,760 Speaker 1: those things are seen as well. But that's a that's 2015 01:50:18,800 --> 01:50:21,639 Speaker 1: a left wing that's a liberal issue, that's a liberal fight. 2016 01:50:21,760 --> 01:50:24,240 Speaker 1: And this I'm a conservative or a right wing and 2017 01:50:24,320 --> 01:50:27,080 Speaker 1: so people don't mobilize on that. But how do we 2018 01:50:27,520 --> 01:50:31,439 Speaker 1: get to a point where something like that, something like 2019 01:50:31,520 --> 01:50:33,960 Speaker 1: tongas or something like that, this damn British Columbia, that 2020 01:50:34,000 --> 01:50:38,519 Speaker 1: those are those become a guard the gate issue? Right? 2021 01:50:38,760 --> 01:50:41,439 Speaker 1: But how do we how do we get get past that? 2022 01:50:41,520 --> 01:50:43,640 Speaker 1: Like people are hung up on those, I think and 2023 01:50:43,720 --> 01:50:45,360 Speaker 1: some and maybe I'm wrong, but I think in some 2024 01:50:45,400 --> 01:50:48,160 Speaker 1: cases people are hung up on those because of perceived 2025 01:50:48,160 --> 01:50:51,439 Speaker 1: political affiliations of those. Yeah, because what happens is here's 2026 01:50:51,479 --> 01:50:53,519 Speaker 1: what it ends up happening. And I've been I've been 2027 01:50:53,600 --> 01:50:55,479 Speaker 1: trying to be as honest what I can on this 2028 01:50:55,520 --> 01:50:58,320 Speaker 1: podcast about this because I think it it is important. 2029 01:50:58,320 --> 01:51:00,640 Speaker 1: I've said, listen, I love the Second an Amendment, I 2030 01:51:00,720 --> 01:51:04,120 Speaker 1: love my guns. Um In some ways I'm I am 2031 01:51:04,200 --> 01:51:07,800 Speaker 1: in favor of constitutional carry, and I'm a libertarian in 2032 01:51:07,800 --> 01:51:09,839 Speaker 1: a lot of ways. But I also love the environment. 2033 01:51:09,880 --> 01:51:13,639 Speaker 1: I'm an environmentalist, I love public lands. I don't craft 2034 01:51:13,720 --> 01:51:17,040 Speaker 1: my ideology based on the buckets that have been you know, 2035 01:51:17,439 --> 01:51:21,599 Speaker 1: or the the containers that society has provided. I just don't, 2036 01:51:22,000 --> 01:51:24,960 Speaker 1: and that that opens me up to hate from both sides. Right, 2037 01:51:25,800 --> 01:51:27,439 Speaker 1: So you just have to be willing to say I've 2038 01:51:27,439 --> 01:51:29,719 Speaker 1: said publicly I voted for Joe Biden. Got a problem 2039 01:51:29,720 --> 01:51:32,640 Speaker 1: with less talk. Um, But if you don't want to 2040 01:51:32,640 --> 01:51:34,439 Speaker 1: be around me because I voted for Joe Biden, I 2041 01:51:34,479 --> 01:51:37,559 Speaker 1: probably didn't want to be around you anyway. Um. And 2042 01:51:37,600 --> 01:51:40,280 Speaker 1: so it's it's much bigger than I think it's. It's 2043 01:51:40,320 --> 01:51:43,600 Speaker 1: it's much much bigger than I think just the tongas 2044 01:51:43,680 --> 01:51:47,840 Speaker 1: or just um some bill to to ban air fifteens 2045 01:51:47,840 --> 01:51:51,559 Speaker 1: in Canada and America. I think it's being able to have, 2046 01:51:52,960 --> 01:51:57,320 Speaker 1: you know, really at some level, the honesty, the transparency, 2047 01:51:57,360 --> 01:52:00,400 Speaker 1: but also the bravery to say, like the here's a 2048 01:52:01,360 --> 01:52:03,840 Speaker 1: complex set of values that I hold and here's how 2049 01:52:03,880 --> 01:52:07,240 Speaker 1: I got there. Um. Some of these values are malleable, 2050 01:52:07,320 --> 01:52:09,800 Speaker 1: some of them aren't. Um. And being able to let 2051 01:52:09,840 --> 01:52:13,360 Speaker 1: that be what it is and not have to be uh, 2052 01:52:13,400 --> 01:52:15,880 Speaker 1: you know, cut up like a whaler cuts up a whale, 2053 01:52:16,280 --> 01:52:19,040 Speaker 1: you know, and and used wholly for one side or 2054 01:52:19,080 --> 01:52:22,360 Speaker 1: the other. When do you feel like your entire identity 2055 01:52:22,439 --> 01:52:26,720 Speaker 1: is threatened? Yeah, yeah, I'll fight for the tongus and 2056 01:52:26,760 --> 01:52:29,960 Speaker 1: I'll also tell you know, and I'll fight for my 2057 01:52:30,040 --> 01:52:33,000 Speaker 1: air fifteens until John. I mean, I I often say 2058 01:52:33,040 --> 01:52:36,200 Speaker 1: that I'm a I'm a political mess. I'm homeless politically. 2059 01:52:36,200 --> 01:52:39,080 Speaker 1: I've voted. I have voted for every party in Canada. Yeah, 2060 01:52:39,160 --> 01:52:41,040 Speaker 1: and then everybody will say to me, like your guy 2061 01:52:41,120 --> 01:52:43,280 Speaker 1: Joe Biden said, you know what, Listen, Joe Biden's doing 2062 01:52:43,280 --> 01:52:45,519 Speaker 1: a lot of stuff. I'm gonna fight him wholly against 2063 01:52:46,120 --> 01:52:48,960 Speaker 1: um he starts passing, he's gonna I know when I 2064 01:52:49,040 --> 01:52:51,200 Speaker 1: voted for him, he's going to pass uncontroled legislation. I 2065 01:52:51,280 --> 01:52:52,720 Speaker 1: know what. I'm going to fight him with all that 2066 01:52:52,800 --> 01:52:57,200 Speaker 1: I have. And I don't feel ashamed about that issue 2067 01:52:57,360 --> 01:53:01,280 Speaker 1: because that is that is me, how, having a complex 2068 01:53:01,320 --> 01:53:04,320 Speaker 1: set of beliefs that don't always line up with even 2069 01:53:04,320 --> 01:53:06,599 Speaker 1: the people I voted for. So it's like, I think 2070 01:53:06,640 --> 01:53:08,640 Speaker 1: that's an honesty if we can all start to have 2071 01:53:08,760 --> 01:53:12,120 Speaker 1: that um and if we can slough off the social 2072 01:53:12,200 --> 01:53:18,120 Speaker 1: pressures to adhere the self censorship that we all partake in, 2073 01:53:18,160 --> 01:53:20,720 Speaker 1: whether we like it or not. UM, if we can 2074 01:53:20,720 --> 01:53:23,479 Speaker 1: get away from that, then we can start to find 2075 01:53:23,520 --> 01:53:27,320 Speaker 1: ourselves in a position where maybe we can, you know, 2076 01:53:27,439 --> 01:53:30,559 Speaker 1: maybe like you and I can start to collect around 2077 01:53:31,320 --> 01:53:34,360 Speaker 1: ideas that are plucked from each side that we all 2078 01:53:34,400 --> 01:53:37,040 Speaker 1: agree on well totally. And I think, like I often 2079 01:53:37,080 --> 01:53:39,400 Speaker 1: try to spin it on myself and I go, okay, well, 2080 01:53:39,439 --> 01:53:43,879 Speaker 1: I'm asking this person, you know, whether the animal rights activists, 2081 01:53:43,880 --> 01:53:46,800 Speaker 1: I'm asking them to acknowledge that they see something from 2082 01:53:46,800 --> 01:53:49,360 Speaker 1: my perspective, and we might agree. And I think, like 2083 01:53:50,320 --> 01:53:53,000 Speaker 1: to use maybe a blunt example or a bit of 2084 01:53:53,000 --> 01:53:56,959 Speaker 1: a low hanging fruit, I go, well, can I understand 2085 01:53:57,040 --> 01:54:00,000 Speaker 1: the idea of right? So now it's a bit different 2086 01:54:00,000 --> 01:54:03,200 Speaker 1: me because we actually don't have the gun rights in Canada, 2087 01:54:03,240 --> 01:54:05,720 Speaker 1: But you see where I'm going with this that it's like, well, 2088 01:54:05,720 --> 01:54:07,719 Speaker 1: if we have, if we think of things like hunting 2089 01:54:07,840 --> 01:54:12,679 Speaker 1: rights and gun rights, I can understand the concept of 2090 01:54:12,800 --> 01:54:17,000 Speaker 1: the importance of rights and how how fundamental and profound 2091 01:54:17,040 --> 01:54:20,559 Speaker 1: that idea is. And so then I find, okay, I 2092 01:54:20,600 --> 01:54:24,400 Speaker 1: can I can see the the place that that person's 2093 01:54:24,840 --> 01:54:30,559 Speaker 1: thinking is in, right, um, and realize that, um, it's 2094 01:54:30,680 --> 01:54:34,960 Speaker 1: it's it's not a totally alien concept that they're coming from. 2095 01:54:35,640 --> 01:54:38,840 Speaker 1: You know, I have a frame reference for that. Yeah, 2096 01:54:38,960 --> 01:54:40,960 Speaker 1: I do too, And I can see why sometimes people 2097 01:54:41,080 --> 01:54:46,400 Speaker 1: get spun into, hey, are we gonna chop down some 2098 01:54:46,480 --> 01:54:48,680 Speaker 1: old growth forest in the the Tongas in Alaska? That's going 2099 01:54:48,720 --> 01:54:52,920 Speaker 1: to create jobs? And like, okay, well, like I can see, 2100 01:54:53,080 --> 01:54:56,520 Speaker 1: let's let's talk about that, um, And let's try to 2101 01:54:56,560 --> 01:55:00,440 Speaker 1: come to some at least some amenable way to approached 2102 01:55:00,480 --> 01:55:02,760 Speaker 1: the topic rather than just beating each other up with 2103 01:55:02,800 --> 01:55:08,080 Speaker 1: the polar polarized versions of of the conversation. Unfortunately, the 2104 01:55:08,160 --> 01:55:11,280 Speaker 1: discourse doesn't allow that most time. Well, no, and I 2105 01:55:11,320 --> 01:55:13,040 Speaker 1: think that that's one of the things I really try 2106 01:55:13,080 --> 01:55:15,480 Speaker 1: and do too, is that it doesn't work anywhere near 2107 01:55:15,520 --> 01:55:17,880 Speaker 1: half the time, probably, but is to kind of, you know, 2108 01:55:17,960 --> 01:55:20,120 Speaker 1: define the terms a little bit. And I said earlier, right, 2109 01:55:20,160 --> 01:55:23,720 Speaker 1: if you you tell someone who's opposed to killing animals, 2110 01:55:23,760 --> 01:55:26,040 Speaker 1: but okay, I pay for it, you know, and I 2111 01:55:26,120 --> 01:55:28,280 Speaker 1: kind of go, like, what are the terms we're discussing here, 2112 01:55:28,280 --> 01:55:31,440 Speaker 1: and let's make sure that we're not you know if 2113 01:55:31,480 --> 01:55:33,960 Speaker 1: if sometimes we talk about you know, apples and oranges, 2114 01:55:33,960 --> 01:55:36,400 Speaker 1: I mean sometimes we're in completely different food groups. And 2115 01:55:36,480 --> 01:55:39,680 Speaker 1: let's at least get to understand what is it we're 2116 01:55:39,680 --> 01:55:42,440 Speaker 1: talking about here, what is the and like you said, 2117 01:55:42,480 --> 01:55:44,480 Speaker 1: you don't find out where people are coming from. Let's 2118 01:55:44,480 --> 01:55:48,080 Speaker 1: start there then, and one of us has to be 2119 01:55:48,120 --> 01:55:51,680 Speaker 1: willing to to shift, um, And so let's figure out 2120 01:55:51,720 --> 01:55:53,960 Speaker 1: what it is we're talking about and where we're starting from, 2121 01:55:54,000 --> 01:55:56,160 Speaker 1: and at least make sure we're talking from the same place. 2122 01:55:56,200 --> 01:56:01,320 Speaker 1: Because you're right, if somebody is addressing an issue of 2123 01:56:01,520 --> 01:56:04,600 Speaker 1: land sale from the perspective of jobs and you're addressing 2124 01:56:04,600 --> 01:56:09,160 Speaker 1: it from the perspective of environmental justice, well the completely 2125 01:56:09,200 --> 01:56:11,960 Speaker 1: different things, and you're the approach might better be to 2126 01:56:12,040 --> 01:56:15,000 Speaker 1: talk about how, you know what it's actually not going 2127 01:56:15,040 --> 01:56:17,360 Speaker 1: to be that economically profitable. And this comes up in 2128 01:56:17,400 --> 01:56:19,320 Speaker 1: the climate change discussion all the time. You hear you 2129 01:56:19,400 --> 01:56:21,320 Speaker 1: talk about and I've done a lot of work and 2130 01:56:21,360 --> 01:56:24,640 Speaker 1: climate change research. You know, Um, if you're talking to 2131 01:56:24,720 --> 01:56:27,680 Speaker 1: conservative or typically people who would think of themselves as 2132 01:56:27,880 --> 01:56:32,040 Speaker 1: conservative or right leading political affiliations, you've got to talk 2133 01:56:32,040 --> 01:56:36,000 Speaker 1: about the economics and the rights element of it, and 2134 01:56:35,960 --> 01:56:40,200 Speaker 1: individual rights, individual well being, and not focus on so 2135 01:56:40,280 --> 01:56:44,640 Speaker 1: much of the environmental justice and morality of it because 2136 01:56:44,640 --> 01:56:46,320 Speaker 1: that's just not what they're going to respond to. And 2137 01:56:46,400 --> 01:56:49,080 Speaker 1: that's okay, you know, because that's a part of it 2138 01:56:49,080 --> 01:56:51,520 Speaker 1: is you can't you can't remove that from the conversation. 2139 01:56:51,520 --> 01:56:53,640 Speaker 1: But I I always in talking to a lot of 2140 01:56:53,640 --> 01:56:56,920 Speaker 1: animal rights folks, and I said this the thing with 2141 01:56:57,000 --> 01:56:59,360 Speaker 1: the interview of paulished here he started out. I'm sure 2142 01:56:59,400 --> 01:57:01,920 Speaker 1: you heard it. He was real prickly starting out, he 2143 01:57:01,920 --> 01:57:04,200 Speaker 1: didn't want to talk to me, and by the end 2144 01:57:04,240 --> 01:57:07,840 Speaker 1: we were having a conversation. And when he before he 2145 01:57:07,920 --> 01:57:10,160 Speaker 1: hung up after off air, he was like, I'd love 2146 01:57:10,160 --> 01:57:12,480 Speaker 1: to have that conversation again. I appreciate you, I appreciate 2147 01:57:12,480 --> 01:57:15,600 Speaker 1: the way you approach that. And that was it. That's 2148 01:57:15,640 --> 01:57:17,560 Speaker 1: all I really wanted out of that. I was never 2149 01:57:17,560 --> 01:57:20,680 Speaker 1: going to move him very far. And what I always 2150 01:57:20,720 --> 01:57:23,520 Speaker 1: tell people and what I would what I hope can 2151 01:57:23,600 --> 01:57:25,840 Speaker 1: be true one day, is that we can start all 2152 01:57:25,880 --> 01:57:31,480 Speaker 1: these these very necessary disagreements, like just imagine that we're 2153 01:57:31,520 --> 01:57:34,840 Speaker 1: standing back to back or standing face to face in 2154 01:57:34,880 --> 01:57:38,720 Speaker 1: the spot where we agree and then slowly walking away 2155 01:57:39,320 --> 01:57:43,840 Speaker 1: as we get digged deeper into the disagreement and also 2156 01:57:44,000 --> 01:57:47,080 Speaker 1: not being afraid to take a step towards the other 2157 01:57:47,120 --> 01:57:49,040 Speaker 1: person when they say something that you do agree with. 2158 01:57:49,080 --> 01:57:50,840 Speaker 1: And I think that that's super key too, right, is 2159 01:57:51,800 --> 01:57:53,560 Speaker 1: we know that we're probably going to end up on 2160 01:57:53,560 --> 01:57:56,280 Speaker 1: opposite side of him eventually, but we don't have to 2161 01:57:56,320 --> 01:57:59,920 Speaker 1: go running to those sides of the Well, most conversation 2162 01:58:00,080 --> 01:58:03,080 Speaker 1: on on in our society start with us at different 2163 01:58:03,080 --> 01:58:05,640 Speaker 1: sides of the room. Should we yell at each other 2164 01:58:05,960 --> 01:58:08,160 Speaker 1: on the other side of the room and neither of 2165 01:58:08,240 --> 01:58:10,520 Speaker 1: us It's like the game of I win if you 2166 01:58:10,560 --> 01:58:13,040 Speaker 1: take a step towards me. The way I like, the 2167 01:58:13,040 --> 01:58:15,880 Speaker 1: way I like to take those conversations is like I'm 2168 01:58:16,000 --> 01:58:18,320 Speaker 1: in the same place as you to start, and then 2169 01:58:18,360 --> 01:58:20,760 Speaker 1: let's walk away from each other, but talking as we go, 2170 01:58:21,160 --> 01:58:23,360 Speaker 1: and that way, at least if we get to the 2171 01:58:23,360 --> 01:58:25,120 Speaker 1: other end of the room were yelling at each other, 2172 01:58:25,200 --> 01:58:26,680 Speaker 1: at least we can stop and think, wait a minute, 2173 01:58:26,680 --> 01:58:29,480 Speaker 1: weren't we just in the middle of the room together. Yeah, 2174 01:58:29,520 --> 01:58:31,440 Speaker 1: that's a good that's a good metaphor for that or 2175 01:58:31,480 --> 01:58:34,080 Speaker 1: sort of analogy there, because I think where that also 2176 01:58:34,160 --> 01:58:35,920 Speaker 1: leads us to is it's okay to stop moving back 2177 01:58:35,960 --> 01:58:39,040 Speaker 1: at any point if we realize we're shouting a bit 2178 01:58:39,040 --> 01:58:41,560 Speaker 1: too much to be heard here, let's just let's just 2179 01:58:41,600 --> 01:58:45,360 Speaker 1: pause for a minute here, right, And um and the speed, 2180 01:58:45,440 --> 01:58:48,280 Speaker 1: I mean, we kind of feel pressured, you know, to 2181 01:58:48,320 --> 01:58:53,640 Speaker 1: get everything out in characters or less and to you know, um, 2182 01:58:53,760 --> 01:58:56,360 Speaker 1: but but this is this the speedy that we feel 2183 01:58:56,400 --> 01:59:00,000 Speaker 1: like we need to get through all these issues? Um? 2184 01:59:00,240 --> 01:59:03,240 Speaker 1: Is is it not doing us any favors? Yeah? Well 2185 01:59:03,320 --> 01:59:05,120 Speaker 1: that's it, you know, for me and you, I'm sure 2186 01:59:05,160 --> 01:59:07,280 Speaker 1: we would agree that one of the reasons we love 2187 01:59:07,360 --> 01:59:10,320 Speaker 1: this conservation and hunting is how quickly we can get 2188 01:59:10,320 --> 01:59:13,640 Speaker 1: to where we are right now. Like we can start 2189 01:59:13,680 --> 01:59:15,560 Speaker 1: from like we love animals, we like killing animals. What 2190 01:59:15,600 --> 01:59:17,240 Speaker 1: should we do animal rights? And next thing you know, 2191 01:59:17,320 --> 01:59:22,040 Speaker 1: you're at this very broad socio political conversation that has 2192 01:59:22,080 --> 01:59:26,200 Speaker 1: nothing to do with killing the turkey. Um uh. People 2193 01:59:26,200 --> 01:59:27,840 Speaker 1: will often say this is a hunting show, like, oh, 2194 01:59:28,400 --> 01:59:31,880 Speaker 1: only kind of maybe by name. But you say, like 2195 01:59:31,960 --> 01:59:34,480 Speaker 1: there's a you have there's a quote in the conclusion 2196 01:59:34,520 --> 01:59:37,720 Speaker 1: of your article when you're you're really talking about that 2197 01:59:37,800 --> 01:59:41,560 Speaker 1: disagreement is not the problem. It is that East Side 2198 01:59:41,560 --> 01:59:44,920 Speaker 1: digs in and clings tightly to this ideology. And there's 2199 01:59:44,920 --> 01:59:47,400 Speaker 1: a quote in there from uh, I think you said 2200 01:59:47,400 --> 01:59:50,760 Speaker 1: Fraser and priests, but I'm not sure what's that. Who 2201 01:59:50,800 --> 01:59:53,760 Speaker 1: those folks are? You probably reference them earlier in the piece. 2202 01:59:53,880 --> 01:59:56,000 Speaker 1: Yeah so they yeah, they exactly. They wrote a paper 2203 01:59:56,040 --> 01:59:58,760 Speaker 1: and animal ethics. Yeah so in that in that paper 2204 01:59:58,800 --> 02:00:01,720 Speaker 1: they said, lacking any agree even on an appropriate methodology 2205 02:00:01,760 --> 02:00:05,200 Speaker 1: for resolving the contradictions, it is hard to imagine that 2206 02:00:05,240 --> 02:00:09,880 Speaker 1: the current approaches will move towards consensus. I could have 2207 02:00:09,920 --> 02:00:11,480 Speaker 1: just read that quote would have saved us about ten 2208 02:00:11,480 --> 02:00:15,720 Speaker 1: minutes of podcast. But but that is that is it, 2209 02:00:15,800 --> 02:00:17,560 Speaker 1: And it is just at the end of the day. 2210 02:00:17,600 --> 02:00:22,600 Speaker 1: That's it's these kind of um back and force that 2211 02:00:22,600 --> 02:00:25,640 Speaker 1: that ours are you know, ours really is moving forward 2212 02:00:25,640 --> 02:00:28,080 Speaker 1: in agreement. But it's the same thing. It's really the 2213 02:00:28,120 --> 02:00:31,400 Speaker 1: same exercise that's talking to Paulish here it is and 2214 02:00:31,400 --> 02:00:34,520 Speaker 1: and you know, I took notice at the end when 2215 02:00:34,560 --> 02:00:37,640 Speaker 1: you said, okay, floor is yours? What do you want 2216 02:00:37,680 --> 02:00:39,240 Speaker 1: to say? And then that was the end of it. 2217 02:00:39,320 --> 02:00:42,560 Speaker 1: You didn't respond to what he said. And I don't 2218 02:00:42,560 --> 02:00:44,560 Speaker 1: know if this was just because the conversation is ending, 2219 02:00:44,600 --> 02:00:46,480 Speaker 1: or maybe I'm reading too much into this, but his 2220 02:00:46,680 --> 02:00:51,000 Speaker 1: whole tone changed during those During the closing, he said 2221 02:00:51,080 --> 02:00:54,240 Speaker 1: his last piece, and he changed how he said that. 2222 02:00:54,280 --> 02:00:57,120 Speaker 1: I mean, if I'm sure a linguist would have a 2223 02:00:57,160 --> 02:01:00,000 Speaker 1: heyday with this, but when you when you asked him, um, 2224 02:01:00,160 --> 02:01:02,400 Speaker 1: anything else you want to say, and he said, here's 2225 02:01:02,400 --> 02:01:05,120 Speaker 1: what I would ask hunters to think about this, and 2226 02:01:05,320 --> 02:01:08,280 Speaker 1: his whole approach changed there. He wasn't telling anymore. He 2227 02:01:08,320 --> 02:01:11,320 Speaker 1: was inviting and welcoming and asking people to think about something. 2228 02:01:11,920 --> 02:01:16,680 Speaker 1: And it totally changed the nature of of how he 2229 02:01:16,760 --> 02:01:19,440 Speaker 1: said it, but how I heard it as well. Um, 2230 02:01:19,480 --> 02:01:22,840 Speaker 1: and I was already interested in in in thinking about 2231 02:01:22,840 --> 02:01:24,960 Speaker 1: his perspective, but the way that he changed that, And 2232 02:01:25,000 --> 02:01:28,200 Speaker 1: I think that that's this sort of calling in versus 2233 02:01:28,240 --> 02:01:33,200 Speaker 1: calling out approach, and and I think that that's such 2234 02:01:33,240 --> 02:01:35,080 Speaker 1: an important way to do things. And I mean I've 2235 02:01:35,080 --> 02:01:38,680 Speaker 1: had similar experiences, Um, you know where I've been on 2236 02:01:38,720 --> 02:01:42,080 Speaker 1: Twitter and getting fired up with someone and one of 2237 02:01:42,160 --> 02:01:44,840 Speaker 1: us reaches out and message the other person privately, and 2238 02:01:44,960 --> 02:01:49,320 Speaker 1: immediately that the audience has gone, you know, the need 2239 02:01:49,400 --> 02:01:52,000 Speaker 1: to show off is gone. And I mean I have 2240 02:01:52,160 --> 02:01:55,640 Speaker 1: I've now I've now connected with people who would who 2241 02:01:55,680 --> 02:02:00,160 Speaker 1: would be on a totally different sides of a spectrum 2242 02:02:00,200 --> 02:02:03,240 Speaker 1: to me, and we realized that maybe there's not even 2243 02:02:03,360 --> 02:02:06,040 Speaker 1: maybe the spectrum is not finally anymore, you know, and 2244 02:02:06,080 --> 02:02:09,680 Speaker 1: that's that personal connection is super key. I've seen it, man, 2245 02:02:09,760 --> 02:02:13,760 Speaker 1: Performative outrage is is all? Is all the rage, I 2246 02:02:13,760 --> 02:02:15,760 Speaker 1: guess you would say, but yeah, I've seen it. I've 2247 02:02:15,760 --> 02:02:17,600 Speaker 1: seen it, and also in a way that it shapes 2248 02:02:17,680 --> 02:02:21,640 Speaker 1: like piling on. You know, somebody puts put somebody puts 2249 02:02:21,640 --> 02:02:23,760 Speaker 1: a negative thing up, and then somebody else feels like, 2250 02:02:23,760 --> 02:02:26,360 Speaker 1: oh yeah, I do that with them. Sometimes movie reviews, 2251 02:02:26,400 --> 02:02:28,240 Speaker 1: if I hate a movie, I will go to Rotten 2252 02:02:28,280 --> 02:02:32,440 Speaker 1: Tomatoes and if it's like it's got a ten and 2253 02:02:32,480 --> 02:02:37,280 Speaker 1: everybody hates it, I'll be like, yes, great, like everybody 2254 02:02:37,320 --> 02:02:38,640 Speaker 1: hates it and I hate it. But if I go 2255 02:02:38,720 --> 02:02:42,480 Speaker 1: there and I hated it, I will and everybody loved it, 2256 02:02:42,480 --> 02:02:44,920 Speaker 1: I'll go find the one star and I'll go, oh, yeah, 2257 02:02:44,960 --> 02:02:48,560 Speaker 1: that's good. That guy hated it too. So those are 2258 02:02:48,560 --> 02:02:50,160 Speaker 1: things that we all do. Man, It's like this a 2259 02:02:50,360 --> 02:02:53,240 Speaker 1: natural when it's happening to you. It doesn't feel natural 2260 02:02:53,320 --> 02:02:57,280 Speaker 1: when you're doing it. It certainly feels natural. So yeah, absolutely, um, 2261 02:02:57,400 --> 02:02:59,560 Speaker 1: I've seen it both ways. But man, I I really 2262 02:02:59,560 --> 02:03:01,960 Speaker 1: appreciate shape you're coming on and going through all this. 2263 02:03:02,000 --> 02:03:04,520 Speaker 1: It's weak bright talk for hours more. Maybe we'll have 2264 02:03:04,640 --> 02:03:08,520 Speaker 1: you you come back and and talk more about People 2265 02:03:08,560 --> 02:03:10,760 Speaker 1: can find your stuff everywhere. But where's the best place 2266 02:03:10,840 --> 02:03:13,880 Speaker 1: to find writing and find your social media? Just google 2267 02:03:13,880 --> 02:03:18,240 Speaker 1: Paul McCartney. I'll come. Yeah, actually google Paul McCartney. Hunting 2268 02:03:18,720 --> 02:03:21,560 Speaker 1: I just started writing. I mean that's right, yeah, yeah, So, 2269 02:03:21,680 --> 02:03:24,720 Speaker 1: I mean most of my stuff is up at it's 2270 02:03:24,760 --> 02:03:28,480 Speaker 1: the websites called landscapes and letters dot com. Um, I 2271 02:03:28,520 --> 02:03:30,280 Speaker 1: have a bunch of stuff I I on on the 2272 02:03:30,360 --> 02:03:32,760 Speaker 1: hunt to eat blog and untruth about for a blog 2273 02:03:32,800 --> 02:03:35,920 Speaker 1: as well. Um, but that's that's kind of where I 2274 02:03:36,000 --> 02:03:39,000 Speaker 1: don't most of my ramblings and and thoughts when no 2275 02:03:39,000 --> 02:03:42,240 Speaker 1: one else wants them scapes and letters dot com. But no, 2276 02:03:42,400 --> 02:03:43,920 Speaker 1: this is a great man. Thanks a lot for digging 2277 02:03:43,960 --> 02:03:46,040 Speaker 1: into this. I I've kind of keep saying to people 2278 02:03:46,080 --> 02:03:49,360 Speaker 1: like I, I, Um, I sort of sit. We gotta 2279 02:03:49,760 --> 02:03:51,600 Speaker 1: not only get out of our echo chambers, but break 2280 02:03:51,600 --> 02:03:53,600 Speaker 1: down the echo chambers. And I find I do feel 2281 02:03:53,680 --> 02:03:56,880 Speaker 1: sometimes I do worry sometimes sitting and just writing things 2282 02:03:56,880 --> 02:03:59,760 Speaker 1: on a blog is um, I'm just sort of sitting 2283 02:03:59,760 --> 02:04:02,520 Speaker 1: in my on echo chambers. So it is super nice too. 2284 02:04:03,080 --> 02:04:05,320 Speaker 1: Actually discussed some of this stuff you think about it 2285 02:04:05,320 --> 02:04:09,200 Speaker 1: in real time and be not be worried about that 2286 02:04:09,800 --> 02:04:13,640 Speaker 1: needed to be perfect. And I'd tell my friends all 2287 02:04:13,640 --> 02:04:15,920 Speaker 1: the time that if you call me, you got to 2288 02:04:15,920 --> 02:04:17,800 Speaker 1: talk to me for an hour, Like don't call me 2289 02:04:17,880 --> 02:04:19,600 Speaker 1: just to check in for like five minutes because I'm 2290 02:04:19,640 --> 02:04:22,440 Speaker 1: a podcast. Or if you tell me one thing, We're 2291 02:04:22,440 --> 02:04:25,440 Speaker 1: going to talk for a long time. But I've never 2292 02:04:25,480 --> 02:04:29,800 Speaker 1: written I've never written a five word blogs just so yeah, 2293 02:04:29,800 --> 02:04:34,120 Speaker 1: I understand that for sure. Um, we'll have you back on. 2294 02:04:34,160 --> 02:04:35,800 Speaker 1: I mean when I was looking at like the categories 2295 02:04:35,840 --> 02:04:38,480 Speaker 1: of your writing on your on that website, landscapes and letters, 2296 02:04:38,520 --> 02:04:40,720 Speaker 1: a lot of it was like, well, you know, practical matters, 2297 02:04:40,760 --> 02:04:45,360 Speaker 1: personal reflections, management and policy, ethics and culture, um, a 2298 02:04:45,400 --> 02:04:47,120 Speaker 1: lot of the things that I think of as categories 2299 02:04:47,120 --> 02:04:48,760 Speaker 1: for this year program. So we'll have to have you 2300 02:04:48,800 --> 02:04:50,840 Speaker 1: back on and get into some of those other categories. 2301 02:04:50,880 --> 02:04:53,720 Speaker 1: But I really do would be great. Yeah. I appreciate 2302 02:04:53,720 --> 02:04:56,320 Speaker 1: your thoughts on this and and appreciate you having some 2303 02:04:56,400 --> 02:04:58,800 Speaker 1: time for us. Yeah, you bet, Thanks so much for 2304 02:04:58,840 --> 02:05:00,920 Speaker 1: having me Ben, all right, Paul thanks of a toxing. 2305 02:05:09,680 --> 02:05:12,280 Speaker 1: That's it. That's all another episode in the books. Thank 2306 02:05:12,320 --> 02:05:17,240 Speaker 1: you to the wonderful Kayla Ray for making all of 2307 02:05:17,240 --> 02:05:20,160 Speaker 1: our dreams come true minds specifically, and thank you to 2308 02:05:20,200 --> 02:05:22,920 Speaker 1: everybody that wrote in and helped us with this theme song. 2309 02:05:23,080 --> 02:05:25,560 Speaker 1: It is better, Phil, would you agreed than you could 2310 02:05:25,560 --> 02:05:29,240 Speaker 1: have ever imagined? It? Actually is? I am it really is. 2311 02:05:29,360 --> 02:05:31,120 Speaker 1: I'm not even lying because I I we had not 2312 02:05:31,200 --> 02:05:33,320 Speaker 1: heard it before Kayle played it, and so you don't 2313 02:05:33,360 --> 02:05:37,280 Speaker 1: know she could have uh half asked it, which she didn't, 2314 02:05:37,800 --> 02:05:40,240 Speaker 1: but we didn't know it was as organic as it gets. 2315 02:05:40,240 --> 02:05:41,480 Speaker 1: And when I heard it for the first time, like, 2316 02:05:41,520 --> 02:05:45,160 Speaker 1: that's catchy. I want to hear that every week. And uh, 2317 02:05:45,320 --> 02:05:48,320 Speaker 1: sometimes things just work out the way they should, so 2318 02:05:48,360 --> 02:05:50,120 Speaker 1: we're all excited about that. We also want to thank 2319 02:05:50,120 --> 02:05:53,640 Speaker 1: Paul McCarney for coming in breaking some stuff down with us. 2320 02:05:53,920 --> 02:05:56,880 Speaker 1: We went on some tangents man on that one, but 2321 02:05:56,920 --> 02:06:00,520 Speaker 1: it was fun, fun, smart dude, critical thinker. Important to 2322 02:06:00,520 --> 02:06:02,400 Speaker 1: have him in our community, So thank you to Paul 2323 02:06:02,480 --> 02:06:05,720 Speaker 1: for coming on and chatting with us. Next week, me 2324 02:06:05,760 --> 02:06:09,520 Speaker 1: and Phil are having quite an episode here, uh in 2325 02:06:09,600 --> 02:06:12,200 Speaker 1: both senses. An episode of the podcast in an episode 2326 02:06:12,200 --> 02:06:13,880 Speaker 1: where I can't get the words out of my mouth, 2327 02:06:14,520 --> 02:06:17,640 Speaker 1: so hopefully he edits out all the ridiculous mistakes I've 2328 02:06:17,680 --> 02:06:19,920 Speaker 1: made on this episode. I think that Kayla A did 2329 02:06:19,960 --> 02:06:21,640 Speaker 1: such a good job that it just threw me for 2330 02:06:21,680 --> 02:06:25,000 Speaker 1: a loop mentally, and I can now no longer perform 2331 02:06:25,040 --> 02:06:28,440 Speaker 1: my duties podcast host. Would you agree with that, Phil? Yeah, 2332 02:06:28,480 --> 02:06:32,280 Speaker 1: she said such an example of professionalism, yes, and and 2333 02:06:32,400 --> 02:06:35,320 Speaker 1: coherence that now you just you're beer buckling under the 2334 02:06:35,360 --> 02:06:39,520 Speaker 1: pressure and talent. Uh that now I feel I feel 2335 02:06:39,520 --> 02:06:41,240 Speaker 1: like I don't even won't know what I'm even doing 2336 02:06:41,320 --> 02:06:46,320 Speaker 1: here on this spinning blue orb in the middle of space. Um. Anyway, 2337 02:06:46,680 --> 02:06:49,320 Speaker 1: it was good to get that out there, and we'll 2338 02:06:49,360 --> 02:06:51,920 Speaker 1: keep on keeping on. Next week, we're gonna look at 2339 02:06:52,080 --> 02:06:56,760 Speaker 1: something important to us. Wisconsin. We do love you because 2340 02:06:56,800 --> 02:06:59,160 Speaker 1: you have Pat Dirk and you got Duck during over there. 2341 02:06:59,160 --> 02:07:01,920 Speaker 1: We love Wisconsin, and we're gonna talking about the recent 2342 02:07:01,960 --> 02:07:06,520 Speaker 1: wolf fund over there. Um, wolves were killed on I always, 2343 02:07:06,600 --> 02:07:08,280 Speaker 1: I guess you could say on mass over the last 2344 02:07:08,280 --> 02:07:11,080 Speaker 1: couple of weeks and what is always going to be 2345 02:07:11,120 --> 02:07:15,640 Speaker 1: a controversial hunting however, brief hunting season over there. So 2346 02:07:15,680 --> 02:07:18,520 Speaker 1: we're gonna dive into that. I'm gonna look at it critically. 2347 02:07:19,040 --> 02:07:21,200 Speaker 1: I got a lot on the works all the way 2348 02:07:21,280 --> 02:07:23,640 Speaker 1: up until it's March, Phill and all the way up 2349 02:07:23,680 --> 02:07:26,840 Speaker 1: until April when hunting season kicks off for turkeys and 2350 02:07:26,920 --> 02:07:31,240 Speaker 1: we go full bore into Phil's first season as a hunter. 2351 02:07:31,520 --> 02:07:35,280 Speaker 1: Phil actually tags come out today in Montana, so we're 2352 02:07:35,280 --> 02:07:39,200 Speaker 1: gonna get your turkey tags and that'll be a ceremonial 2353 02:07:39,240 --> 02:07:43,720 Speaker 1: purchase for you. I'll even donate at least a dollar 2354 02:07:43,840 --> 02:07:49,440 Speaker 1: to the to the effort. Wow wow, thanks, if not five, ten, fift, 2355 02:07:50,440 --> 02:07:52,480 Speaker 1: any amount of money to get you out in the woods. 2356 02:07:53,160 --> 02:07:56,120 Speaker 1: So sorry that I sucked. Kayla Ray was good, Phil 2357 02:07:56,200 --> 02:07:59,160 Speaker 1: the engineer was good, and uh, I'll be better next week. 2358 02:07:59,280 --> 02:08:04,640 Speaker 1: I promise, say bye goodbye, you know, because I can't 2359 02:08:04,680 --> 02:08:13,000 Speaker 1: go a week without doing run, oh without doing run, dranking, 2360 02:08:13,040 --> 02:08:19,720 Speaker 1: out right drinking,