Speaker 1: Um, Welcome back to Point of Origin, the podcast about
Speaker 1: the world of food from around the world. I'm your host,
Speaker 1: Steven Saderfield m Our. Next guest, Nitziki Biela is a
Speaker 1: South African wine maker who runs at Selina Wines. She
Speaker 1: is one of the very first black female wine makers
Speaker 1: in the country. Nitzki is an old friend of mine
Speaker 1: from the days of the International Society of Africans and
Speaker 1: Wine or the I SAW Foundation, which was a nonprofit
Speaker 1: that worked to support black and indigenous wine makers, growers
Speaker 1: and exporters in the South African wine industry. And now
Speaker 1: Nitzki has gone off and started her own Inner Prize
Speaker 1: in Aslina Wines, which we will learn more about today. Natziki,
Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining us on Point of Origin.
Speaker 1: Thank you very much. Good to hear you. Yes, indeed,
Speaker 1: I'm doing really well. I'm so glad to hear your voice.
Speaker 1: It's been so long and very very long, very long,
Speaker 1: too long. I hope it's never this long again. I
Speaker 1: hope so, I hope so too. Are you in Stellenbosch
Speaker 1: or are you in Cape Town in so Dst in Summerset? Okay,
Speaker 1: I'm really really grateful that you made time for me today.
Speaker 1: So I have to start off by saying that I
Speaker 1: feel I owe you my entire life. And I mean
Speaker 1: that literally because when I first met you in two
Speaker 1: thousand and eight, it completely changed the direction of my life.
Speaker 1: I had been working as a samolier and really reading
Speaker 1: more about the history of the South African wine industry,
Speaker 1: learning about how it was colonized by the Dutch, and
Speaker 1: feeling a sense of wanting to insert myself in the
Speaker 1: story of South African wines beyond just you know, peddling
Speaker 1: the wines table side, but really acting as an advocate
Speaker 1: and an ally for the very few black men or
Speaker 1: women like yourself who were able to find their way
Speaker 1: into the top spot of winemaking. And so I've been
Speaker 1: so inspired by your work. It has led me to
Speaker 1: continue documenting and exploring and advocating for indigenous and marginalized
Speaker 1: groups throughout wine and agriculture. And it's all because of you.
Speaker 1: So thank you for all that you've done and continued
Speaker 1: to do. Thank you so much, Steven. That is so
Speaker 1: beautiful to hear. I think we sometimes to a point
Speaker 1: where we take it for granted what we do as
Speaker 1: individuals in different spaces or because we're feeling like, oh no,
Speaker 1: we're just peddling where we are, but actually to know
Speaker 1: that whatever we're peddling doing it is someone's inspiration, it
Speaker 1: always gets me humbled. Thank you, of course. So let's
Speaker 1: talk about your story. Can you orient us geographically where
Speaker 1: you grew up? Okay, so currently I'm based in the
Speaker 1: Western Cape, which is the most southwest of South Africa,
Speaker 1: and I'm from Baslontal, which is more north east of
Speaker 1: South Africa, but I'm more inland. So where I come
Speaker 1: from this basically it's a very liberal area where basically,
Speaker 1: if you would have told me about why I'm making
Speaker 1: and talking about where I am today, that I would
Speaker 1: have been here by now. I wouldn't even have had
Speaker 1: an idea what to talk about. I was applying to study.
Speaker 1: It's not like I applied because I knew I'm going
Speaker 1: to be doing winemaking. It was like, oh, there's a
Speaker 1: scholarship studying whatever are the wine making or the agriculture
Speaker 1: was saying. It was sort of like saying blah blah blah.
Speaker 1: But I saw studying and then there's funding and I
Speaker 1: was like, I'll do it. So that that's basically was
Speaker 1: my path to the to the to get to the industry.
Speaker 1: And it was just because you felt like there was
Speaker 1: an opportunity there or were you curious about why. No,
Speaker 1: for me, it was an opportunity to study. It was
Speaker 1: an opportunity to change my life. It was an opportunity
Speaker 1: to do something. It could have been anything, but I
Speaker 1: saw studying and I was like, yes, so much so
Speaker 1: even though when I was told that, oh no, the
Speaker 1: cause it is going to be in Afrikaans, I was like,
Speaker 1: oh no, that's fine. I learned um. But obviously I
Speaker 1: didn't have a sense of direction and feeling what that
Speaker 1: meant to say if it's an Afrikaans. So it was
Speaker 1: like I thought, you know what, whatever it is, I'm
Speaker 1: going to do it. I'll learn. And when you you
Speaker 1: grew up in Quasolon at all in the nineteen eighties,
Speaker 1: what was your childhood like? I think one of the
Speaker 1: things that get overlooked when you look at the childhood
Speaker 1: of the rural people. I think people look at and
Speaker 1: see poverty because it's not a lifestyle that is lived
Speaker 1: in the cities. It's not a lifestyle that is lived
Speaker 1: in the European style. But when you look at it.
Speaker 1: Actually in it, there's that sense of community, there's sense
Speaker 1: of love, there's sense of togetherness, which you do not
Speaker 1: find in the Western lifestyles. For me, when I was
Speaker 1: growing up, I think when I look back, one of
Speaker 1: the things I enjoyed the most because how I grew
Speaker 1: up with my grandmother and my grandfather. Because my mom
Speaker 1: was working as a domestic wreak and durban most of
Speaker 1: the time I was spending looking after cows and so
Speaker 1: I will spend most of the time with the boys,
Speaker 1: and I was milking cows. I was, you know, taking
Speaker 1: care of the the things within the family to make
Speaker 1: sure that okay, because they go to the tep, they
Speaker 1: come back. We do milking, we do this, we do that.
Speaker 1: And when I look back at that, it was the
Speaker 1: most beautiful thing that nowadays kids don't get to experience.
Speaker 1: These are the beautiful things that we miss. So you
Speaker 1: were obviously growing up with animals, with the relationship to
Speaker 1: the soil. Did it occur to you that when you
Speaker 1: would be going to study wine, was there part of
Speaker 1: you that thought or hoped that you might be able
Speaker 1: to continue that relationship. Yes, there was part of me
Speaker 1: that I hope I will be able to continue doing
Speaker 1: some of the things that I was doing, even though
Speaker 1: it was wine making. I think that part of saying
Speaker 1: agriculture for me, it did tell me that I'll be
Speaker 1: dealing with soil. And I remember one of my grandfather's
Speaker 1: in the village called me and said, my child, when
Speaker 1: I had that to studying agriculture, a really good worried
Speaker 1: and I was like, what is that agriculta these are
Speaker 1: things we're doing here. Why didn't you study to be
Speaker 1: a clerk just and be in the office. Because agriculture
Speaker 1: it's something that you're living on the on your daily basis.
Speaker 1: It's something that you don't think you can make a
Speaker 1: living on. It's something that is being looked at as
Speaker 1: small as the chip stuff to play your stuff. So
Speaker 1: why do you have studied it? But you know, it
Speaker 1: seems like a valid question. It reminds me a lot
Speaker 1: of when I was getting into food. A lot of
Speaker 1: my relatives, who you know, come from a legacy very
Speaker 1: similarly of domestic workers and working in kitchens in the
Speaker 1: South where there's the only jobs that were available, you know,
Speaker 1: to my great grandparents. When I said I want to
Speaker 1: go to culinary school and pursue food and cooking for
Speaker 1: a living there, like you're gonna pay money for that,
Speaker 1: Like you could just go work at a restaurant. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I completely under stand. It's really interesting part of our well.
Speaker 1: We have many parts of a shared history from the continent.
Speaker 1: But you know, looking at the role of African people
Speaker 1: and agriculture, it's a complicated story because, as you're alluding to,
Speaker 1: it is obviously so much a part of our history
Speaker 1: in Africa, and as the world has grown smaller and
Speaker 1: more industrialized, we have lost our relationship as African people,
Speaker 1: both on the continent to the land, but also here
Speaker 1: in the US with the legacy of slavery. There are
Speaker 1: so many African Americans who are tepid or reluctant about
Speaker 1: working on the land because we feel that, you know,
Speaker 1: we have to fight so hard to move into these
Speaker 1: clerical jobs, right and actually, why are you doing it
Speaker 1: for yourself and doing it for you you know, it's
Speaker 1: the own thing. It brings a different sense deafly so beautiful,
Speaker 1: so beautiful that you're part of that reclamation as well.
Speaker 1: So you're how old when you're in Stellenbush University, like
Speaker 1: nineteen years old, twenty years old. I was twenty years
Speaker 1: old when I when I came to the university. Actually
Speaker 1: when I got there, it was you know, that shock
Speaker 1: of culture, shock off this different world that I came
Speaker 1: to from its small village in the Royal areas where
Speaker 1: it's only black people, where everything is like here, you
Speaker 1: know each other, everything is here, to get to this
Speaker 1: place where and I remember my first day when we
Speaker 1: have to look for black people and you're like uh,
Speaker 1: and then when you see one, you go running it high,
Speaker 1: speaking only to find the person that we've seen that
Speaker 1: don't speak your language. And you realize that still after
Speaker 1: finding other don't speak your language, is so excited that actually,
Speaker 1: who but someone who looks like me. It was something
Speaker 1: that I never thought there could be something like that.
Speaker 1: What a strange thought. I mean, wow, that's such a
Speaker 1: strange thought. So how were you being received in those
Speaker 1: moments when you would rush over to another black person?
Speaker 1: Were they like whoa chill, what's wrong with you? Or
Speaker 1: were they like hey, So because they understood the situation,
Speaker 1: they embraced us, and because they used to stay in
Speaker 1: the student houses where they could cook, and they go, no, come,
Speaker 1: we're gonna cook. And and then we started knowing each other,
Speaker 1: and they understood the pain we're going through because they
Speaker 1: were post graduates and they were learning in there in English,
Speaker 1: and here we are, We're frustrated and crying and we're
Speaker 1: running linen in Afrikaans and we don't understand and it's
Speaker 1: just everything is overwhelming. So yeah, I kind of knew
Speaker 1: the answer to that, but I just wanted to hear
Speaker 1: you said the universal had not I think we all know.
Speaker 1: So how did you manage to speak Afrikaans? Not only
Speaker 1: learning the language, but how did you manage to learn
Speaker 1: about winemaking, which is really technical involves a lot of science.
Speaker 1: Even if Afrikaans was your first language, it would be tricky.
Speaker 1: But how did you manage to kind of simultaneously learn
Speaker 1: a new language and learn really, you know, complex science.
Speaker 1: We had to request tutors because it just it wasn't
Speaker 1: gonna work. We had to request tutors. And you're sit
Speaker 1: in class and listen and just too because there are
Speaker 1: words which are in Afrikaans but that sort of a
Speaker 1: borrowed from English, so you could actually follow in an
Speaker 1: English book to see where they are in class, and
Speaker 1: then you're gonna go to the to the tutor class
Speaker 1: after that, and then the tutor can explain things in English. Wow,
Speaker 1: it felt like basically someone is shoving something down your throat.
Speaker 1: I think a human sense that when something like that
Speaker 1: happens to block. So there was that part of me
Speaker 1: was that not just blocked that? And I've not not
Speaker 1: been interested in learning the language because I felt like
Speaker 1: you're not being forced to learn it in this than
Speaker 1: that because the native language is is a Zulu. Yes, yes,
Speaker 1: managing my language is Zulu. So you're speaking Zulu growing up?
Speaker 1: Did you have any exposure to English? That one is
Speaker 1: a very interesting one. I did, but our English was
Speaker 1: more like being taught in Zulu. Yeah, you know when
Speaker 1: you go to class and you'll be taught most of
Speaker 1: them had to be explained in Zulu. H So, coming
Speaker 1: to stell In Bush, my English was just yeah, so
Speaker 1: you're in this classroom. It takes three different languages basically
Speaker 1: for for you to learn about wine making, but we're
Speaker 1: making it happen. And was there some point in the
Speaker 1: class where, even though you were frustrated with the language barrier,
Speaker 1: did you have some kind of epiphany around the winemaking
Speaker 1: itself where you thought like, even though I hate this
Speaker 1: language barrier. I am actually interested in what's being taught.
Speaker 1: It wasn't really the class because what happened in my
Speaker 1: first year, I got a job at Tel Time Wine.
Speaker 1: So I was working at the tasting room, working at
Speaker 1: this in the celler with the whine maker, Philip Constantez.
Speaker 1: He's stealth deep Africans guy. Like the look and feel
Speaker 1: you can say, this guy is like, you know, deep
Speaker 1: cultural Africaans in in any way in the Loos, you
Speaker 1: know way. I realized that as human beings we're saw different.
Speaker 1: The love he had. Philip was struggling with English big time.
Speaker 1: I could see that sometimes he she could transfer the
Speaker 1: information to me that I could understand what's going on
Speaker 1: and all that. It was through him that I said
Speaker 1: to myself, I'm going to be a wine maker. And
Speaker 1: also his passion for wine making, that for me was
Speaker 1: one of the most amazing things. And I remember during harvest,
Speaker 1: the first tank of um, once it's done ferment in
Speaker 1: to enter the first tank of men. It was his,
Speaker 1: and he will say the first tank is his. The
Speaker 1: second one would be the whine makers, the assistant whine makers,
Speaker 1: the third would be the supervisor. And then we all follow.
Speaker 1: And that that's when I was like, I wanna be
Speaker 1: the whine maker for me. He inspired me because of
Speaker 1: his passion for while making, because of passion for humanity. Wow,
Speaker 1: do you guys have a relationship, Yes, we do. I
Speaker 1: had bought my grapes of Shadowy for twenty seventeen bottom
Speaker 1: from him. Wow, he must be super proud of you.
Speaker 1: Talk about super proud. I remember at some point I
Speaker 1: asked him, I said, Philips, tell me when you see me,
Speaker 1: what do you think? And it's like, you know what,
Speaker 1: and said, you don't understand when you see someone when
Speaker 1: you remember them as kids in your celler, and you
Speaker 1: remember what you went through with the person, and it's like,
Speaker 1: you make me proud. You just make me proud because
Speaker 1: I remember when I remember that December when I did
Speaker 1: my harvest that yeah, when I went back to school,
Speaker 1: he gave me a bottle of cab. He gave me tina,
Speaker 1: and then he gave me a specially at harvest and
Speaker 1: like so getting these wines, and I remember the cab
Speaker 1: he gave me was a cab that was not available
Speaker 1: to be sold anymore. So it was one of those
Speaker 1: special wines. And he gave me that, and I remember
Speaker 1: people in the saladical the wine maga gave her the
Speaker 1: wine and we are working in we don't just get wines.
Speaker 1: And I thought to myself, this was so special. I
Speaker 1: had to keep the wines. Wow. So you are working
Speaker 1: with Philip, you're enrolled in stelling Bosh, and after you
Speaker 1: completed your coursework there, did you stay at the same
Speaker 1: winery or did you move on to a different one.
Speaker 1: When I finished my studies, I moved to a different
Speaker 1: one because also Philip had left her hand by then.
Speaker 1: When I finished my studies. You know when you see
Speaker 1: somebody looks it too with a worry, it was contrad
Speaker 1: Flock was the wine maker after Philip. He looked and
Speaker 1: he said, I was watching battles at the back, and
Speaker 1: he certain city. You know, when you go out to
Speaker 1: the work in the industry, just be open and understand
Speaker 1: that not everybody cares and not everybody will basically have
Speaker 1: your interests. So just be aware of that. But like
Speaker 1: when he spoke, there was this concern of some sort
Speaker 1: and I could feel he was concerned. He was obviously
Speaker 1: because he knew the industry, you know, and he was
Speaker 1: concerned and worried, and he's giving me those them that
Speaker 1: like when you go out there, just don't be naive,
Speaker 1: be aware that these things are going to happen. Certain
Speaker 1: things are going to happen that's going to be blocking
Speaker 1: your way, you know. And and do you think that
Speaker 1: he was explicitly talking about the fact that you were
Speaker 1: a black woman. For sure, he had never seen or
Speaker 1: worked with the black woman. I mean, was he basically
Speaker 1: expressing concern? I think so he was concerned fact that
Speaker 1: I'm a woman and through that black and there isn't
Speaker 1: a lot of black people in the industry. I think
Speaker 1: his concern was more like to say, I hope you
Speaker 1: will persevere. So yeah, there was that concern for me.
Speaker 1: It was people like those him and Philip who made
Speaker 1: me say, you know what, Yes, I'm going to meet
Speaker 1: people who working with BED in the industry, but guess what,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna keep on listening to those voices that I
Speaker 1: heard at the beginning who were saying walk the path.
Speaker 1: M For people who don't really understand the makeup of
Speaker 1: South Africa's wine industry, obviously you are an anomaly. When
Speaker 1: you look at the wine industry itself is a percent
Speaker 1: of the population in South Africa's black. And when you
Speaker 1: come to the wine industry and you look at the
Speaker 1: management level and all that that's proud about what what
Speaker 1: that's maybe looking at the people of color? There isn't
Speaker 1: many people of color in the industry. M So who's
Speaker 1: actually working the harvest? And yeah, that's what I'm saying,
Speaker 1: You're not going to find an management level. You find
Speaker 1: the majority of the people working in the unions, they're
Speaker 1: doing labor. Now to commit a level of management as
Speaker 1: a blood person, a person of color, that who you Yes, yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm familiar with that. So I mean you did you
Speaker 1: feel like because on the one hand, obviously you had
Speaker 1: never been in a situation where you were interacting with
Speaker 1: so many white people and of course I'm sure they
Speaker 1: were thinking the same about you. Did you feel more
Speaker 1: or less prepared for those encounters because you weren't intimidating
Speaker 1: or had nothing compared to or was it more scary
Speaker 1: because you know, you have never been in those positions before.
Speaker 1: When I put out of the university, the actual our
Speaker 1: scared of the industry because the university, the students will say,
Speaker 1: what are you doing in the Africans university? If you
Speaker 1: don't understand Africans. What are you doing here? Why didn't
Speaker 1: you stay where you were? And you're thinking, you know
Speaker 1: all the time, and to get to to the work
Speaker 1: environment with that in your mind to say, I'm being
Speaker 1: constantly asked what am I doing here? So when I
Speaker 1: get to the work area, which I am sure it's
Speaker 1: even scarier, I'm expecting the worst. And then you get
Speaker 1: to the work environment and you don't see the worst.
Speaker 1: And then I said to myself, Okay, so adults can
Speaker 1: hide stuff and not say They can say it in
Speaker 1: their hearts, but they're not gonna say it of yourseln.
Speaker 1: But also I think I was lucky in I feel
Speaker 1: like one of the most placed people I know of.
Speaker 1: Welcome back to point of origin. So let's talk about
Speaker 1: um Stella Kaiah, because that's where I met you. You
Speaker 1: were working there in two thousand and eight, and I
Speaker 1: believe this is true. But I always say this is
Speaker 1: true that you're the first black woman in South Africa
Speaker 1: to be a head winemaker. Is that right? And that
Speaker 1: became official at Stella Kia? Was that your first official
Speaker 1: wine making position? It's when the truth and the realities
Speaker 1: of growth seriously started yeah, no question. Did you feel
Speaker 1: a kind of responsibility as the first black woman in
Speaker 1: South Africa to be a winemaker? I did feel it
Speaker 1: off a lot of pressure on that. That's when at
Speaker 1: some point I had to go to my boss's office
Speaker 1: and I sat down. I literally know when you're walking
Speaker 1: and not get the doing to sit down on the
Speaker 1: floor next to the door. And I'm like, I can't
Speaker 1: do this, and it goes what And I was like,
Speaker 1: I can't this thing of being a role model, this
Speaker 1: thing of things. I just I just wanted to make
Speaker 1: one and just live my life. And then set me
Speaker 1: down and they said, okay, being a role model, understand this.
Speaker 1: It doesn't mean you need to change your life being
Speaker 1: a round model me to live your best life. And
Speaker 1: then so he explained to me that I also can't
Speaker 1: do this thing of generals. Can they just leave me
Speaker 1: alone and do what I do my own thing? And
Speaker 1: it goes yeah, they can't leave you alone. But the
Speaker 1: other thing is how are other people going to know
Speaker 1: that they are people like you? How are other people
Speaker 1: can get inspired? And that was that can get inspired? Uh, no,
Speaker 1: you're the only one that is. That's really cool. That
Speaker 1: um that Dave and Philippe and Conrad. You know, these
Speaker 1: white men who have had long standing in the industry,
Speaker 1: they really, you know, spent time with you and invested
Speaker 1: in your education. And it sounds like, especially with with Dave,
Speaker 1: just like your emotional well being um as well, which
Speaker 1: is like extremely important given you your position at the time.
Speaker 1: So I remember very distinctly once you came to New
Speaker 1: York and this was in two thousand and ten, and
Speaker 1: you gave a beautiful speech at an event that we hosted,
Speaker 1: and I remember in the middle of that speech you said,
Speaker 1: one day, I want to be the captain of my
Speaker 1: own ship. And it really stuck with me because, you know,
Speaker 1: I obviously wanted that for you. I wanted that for myself,
Speaker 1: you know, but as the first black woman in South
Speaker 1: Africa to be making wine, that actually wasn't your your dream.
Speaker 1: Your dream was to make wine for your own winery.
Speaker 1: And we now fast forward nine years later and I'm
Speaker 1: talking to you and you're the captain of your own ship.
Speaker 1: So congratulations, thank you very much, and thank you for
Speaker 1: reminding me of those words. Yes, I think as human beings,
Speaker 1: we all strive to be the captains of our own
Speaker 1: ship because it drives us to our purpose. That wasn't
Speaker 1: twenty eleven way where I said to Dave, I want
Speaker 1: to start my own company and then he said, oh yeah, sure,
Speaker 1: let me know if need happen. And then there was
Speaker 1: this thing about with Naked Wine where I made on
Speaker 1: one wine for them, and then I met Mika Wilmash
Speaker 1: who spoke to me about doing a collaboration wine and
Speaker 1: basically that's how everything started. MHM came twenty twelve, we
Speaker 1: made a color of wine with Helen kept Linger from
Speaker 1: MAPPA which was branded with other names and it was
Speaker 1: sold in New York. And then twenty thirteen with the
Speaker 1: second collaboration, and I think the proceeds from that is
Speaker 1: what helped me to actually kick start and and start
Speaker 1: as Lena. When I look at all those years, things
Speaker 1: that were following just falling into place to lead to this.
Speaker 1: And in twenty fifteen, I was recruited to be to
Speaker 1: go to to the US for an African women hyprenticeship program,
Speaker 1: and I remember when I got to the US and
Speaker 1: listening to the women from all over Africa who were
Speaker 1: running businesses, multimillion dollar businesses, and I was like, it's
Speaker 1: like you get to a pleasent and say how did
Speaker 1: I get here? Again? Because I don't belong to this group.
Speaker 1: Therese are people who are running businesses and I'm not
Speaker 1: yet running. I'm slightly but not in you know, and
Speaker 1: You're like, whoa, how did I get here? And one
Speaker 1: of the ladies, her Cineme is right, she was speaking
Speaker 1: to us in Chicago, and she said, first, you must
Speaker 1: know why you want to do something. And I remember
Speaker 1: when I was trying to think about it why I
Speaker 1: wanted to start, and I couldn't remember. And I thought
Speaker 1: and thought, and the light bulb came on and I
Speaker 1: remembered why I wanted to start my own company. I
Speaker 1: got a panic because I felt, on my word, I've
Speaker 1: delayed to do this. I'm delaying other people's lives, like
Speaker 1: and then all of a sudden, do all these questions.
Speaker 1: My head rushing through and I was like, oh wow,
Speaker 1: oh no, I have to start m And then in
Speaker 1: that process, one of the ladies actually she said okay,
Speaker 1: let's go, let's get together and have a drink. It
Speaker 1: was a lady from Kenya, and then she invited others,
Speaker 1: so it was a lady from Kenya and Nigeria, Zimbabwe, Mozambique,
Speaker 1: and the comb yes, and I can't. Let's go have
Speaker 1: a drink and they know. We all said, and we're
Speaker 1: having a drink, and they all turned around and said, no, actually,
Speaker 1: the drink is not about having a drink. We just
Speaker 1: wanted to talk to you. I'm like, okay, like what
Speaker 1: is this whole intervention for, you know? And then she's
Speaker 1: like that I've known, so we thought we should talk
Speaker 1: to you because you must have taking drugs. And I'm
Speaker 1: looking at them and guys, I'm not on drugs, you know.
Speaker 1: They go, no, you are, and then the seriousness on
Speaker 1: their face and I'm thinking, guys, I'm not on drugs.
Speaker 1: And then they're like, say that look on the face.
Speaker 1: It terrifies you to know that you're on drugs. And
Speaker 1: then they say your salary is a drug. You cannot
Speaker 1: work for the fix at the end of the month
Speaker 1: because we've got this debt. That's how you're scared of
Speaker 1: jumping the ship and starting your own business. Hours Like,
Speaker 1: oh my word, that is oh my word. They're like, yes,
Speaker 1: you cannot wait for the fix, and I was like wow.
Speaker 1: And I came back from that trip. I came back
Speaker 1: in September I resigned in November. And when I resigned,
Speaker 1: I only had forty rand in my bank account. I
Speaker 1: had no other investments, nothing whatsoever. I had and half
Speaker 1: thousand bottles of wine that I could sell. And yeah,
Speaker 1: and the first thing they've said, how are you gonna survive?
Speaker 1: And I was like, I don't know. Yeah, I mean,
Speaker 1: it's a fair question. I just love that it took
Speaker 1: a group of African women to come to the US
Speaker 1: to really, you know, bring it all together for you
Speaker 1: and force you into thinking about making that leap. Because
Speaker 1: I was going to keep on counting. That's what I
Speaker 1: was doing. I was gonna keep on counting. Just okay, fine,
Speaker 1: I will let me give another year to do this.
Speaker 1: So and then Dave was that, so, can you stay
Speaker 1: with us and consult at least? And as a yes,
Speaker 1: I could. And then so I consulted in Costel. And
Speaker 1: then it became too heavy for me to do consultation
Speaker 1: while I'm trying to push my brand. So I had
Speaker 1: to end the consultation at the end of twenty sixteen.
Speaker 1: And then twenty seventeen I went on fully with us.
Speaker 1: Lena and I remember Mika bull Marsh when I also
Speaker 1: when I said to it, Okay, I've resigned. I need
Speaker 1: to put every effort in this. And then she was
Speaker 1: like she also had a panic, how are we going
Speaker 1: to sell this much? We need to do fast, the
Speaker 1: high we need like insurance, panicking, and like Mika, it's
Speaker 1: gonna be done, because okay, fine, what do you have
Speaker 1: right now? And because okay, fine, for now, we're gonna
Speaker 1: let's take a pallet of each of the three ones,
Speaker 1: bring them to the US, and you need to get
Speaker 1: a ticket in flying. And basically I did that and
Speaker 1: we were on the street. We basically sold that everything
Speaker 1: we had. We sold that everything we had, and I
Speaker 1: had to rush back to bottle all the foreign vintage,
Speaker 1: and and then I started negotiating with them, with my
Speaker 1: suppliers to say, okay, fine, because I remember some of them.
Speaker 1: I said, okay, I'm gonna need cos I won't be
Speaker 1: able to pay you in the next three months. Can
Speaker 1: give me six months to pay, you know, And then
Speaker 1: have these different negotiations with different people. So yeah, like
Speaker 1: I had to be the negotiate and just say things
Speaker 1: up front to the side. I remember one of the
Speaker 1: bottling bottles come back to them and it bottles, but
Speaker 1: I can only pay you in six months time. And
Speaker 1: they were like, City, you've only bought one too, so
Speaker 1: honestly to give you that. And I said, guys, it's
Speaker 1: gonna trust me, just give please. They're like, okay, fine,
Speaker 1: we're gonna give you at least three months. And I
Speaker 1: said okay fine, And so like I bottled, I started selling,
Speaker 1: and so I had to be on the road most
Speaker 1: of the time, which I still do. I'm still on
Speaker 1: the road most of the time. Oh and just to say,
Speaker 1: because one of the things that I didn't say that
Speaker 1: the company as Lena. It's the name. It's named after
Speaker 1: my late grandmother. And one of the reasons that I
Speaker 1: named the company from my grandmother, it's no one would
Speaker 1: look at your unsung heroes, those special people in your life.
Speaker 1: Because I believe I am who I am, and I
Speaker 1: am who I am because of what she invested in
Speaker 1: me emotionally, spiritually, the things she taught me, and she
Speaker 1: made me realize what life was. So it was an
Speaker 1: o brainer that I was the name of my company.
Speaker 1: Of the head. Well, let's talk about actually what you're
Speaker 1: you're selling, because what you're selling is what you're making.
Speaker 1: You make Bordeaux great varieties, which means you make Cabernet
Speaker 1: saving on, you make saving on blanc. So um with
Speaker 1: the four wines that I have, I have Savignon, Blanc,
Speaker 1: cabin A, Chardonnaye, and the Apodog blend which is called
Speaker 1: Sasani Sasan that is the acasta tree, which is an
Speaker 1: iconic try in Africa. It's an umbrellatory one of trees
Speaker 1: that basically sort of like that strong protectors in the
Speaker 1: wild when when it's how to find animals under the
Speaker 1: tree when it's raining, we find animals on the tree.
Speaker 1: And but the reason for that name to be on
Speaker 1: that wine is because it's my grandmother's nickname. So that wine,
Speaker 1: for me, it's a people always say it's a double
Speaker 1: dose of Grandma. I love it. And I've always loved
Speaker 1: your wines too, because they really have so much structure
Speaker 1: and wait to them, and yet they always seem really
Speaker 1: approachable and vibrant, not too much oak, not too heavy.
Speaker 1: So people along the entire spectrum of wine drinkers, you know,
Speaker 1: from beginners to people who are experienced in drinking wine,
Speaker 1: can all find something that they that they like. Is
Speaker 1: that kind of part of your intention in your style
Speaker 1: as a winemaker. Yes, it is. I always try to
Speaker 1: make sure the one is approachable and it's gentle. And
Speaker 1: I think what I like is more so the time
Speaker 1: I get people said I don't like drinking cab and
Speaker 1: then they'll drinking. They go, oh this is different, and
Speaker 1: I'm like, still kid, you know, and for me that
Speaker 1: I like that that people find gentleness enjoyability and say,
Speaker 1: let me have a doss let Mitchell let mirror Lett's.
Speaker 1: I'd love to chill with you and your wines anytime. Uh, Nitziki,
Speaker 1: I'm going to have to wrap it up because I'm
Speaker 1: hitting my time here, but it really brings me so
Speaker 1: much joy to talk to you and to hear about
Speaker 1: Asthlena and that you're still making wine, that you've fallen
Speaker 1: into your role as pioneer. Please seek out Aslena Wines
Speaker 1: check out Ntziki Biela, South Africa's first black female wine maker.
Speaker 1: We're so proud to know you and lucky to get
Speaker 1: to drink your work. So thanks for everything, Nitziki. Thank
Speaker 1: you very much for talking to miss Stephen, and thank
Speaker 1: you to your listeners. Thank You'll be back in touch soon. Okay, Bye,
Speaker 1: bye y m hm m h m hmm. Welcome back
Speaker 1: to Point of Origin. Today we are joined by Andre
Speaker 1: mac a Samolier, winemaker, author and entrepreneur, best known as
Speaker 1: the very first African American to win the title of
Speaker 1: Best Young Sonier in America in the year two thousand three.
Speaker 1: Brother Andre Mack, thanks for joining us today on Point
Speaker 1: of Origins. It going, man, good, good, my man. I'm
Speaker 1: really happy to talk to you today. Before we start
Speaker 1: our conversation and I've got you captive, I'm going to
Speaker 1: take an opportunity to embarrass you by saying that that,
Speaker 1: you know, my career in food really was a career
Speaker 1: in wine before food. I went to culinary school. I
Speaker 1: got super into wine at a very young age and
Speaker 1: I was still at Major. And one of the main
Speaker 1: reasons that I got into wine is because I remember
Speaker 1: reading about this young black samoier who was working for
Speaker 1: Thomas Keller and winning all these awards, and I thought,
Speaker 1: you know what, that could be me one day. I
Speaker 1: didn't end up winning any awards or anything like that,
Speaker 1: but that was in two thousand four. I was reading
Speaker 1: about you. That was right at the beginning of my
Speaker 1: career in wine and It's just been incredible for me
Speaker 1: to watch the trajectory of your career both in and
Speaker 1: outside of wine, and it definitely has shaped my own life,
Speaker 1: you know, as a samoier and then as an entrepreneur
Speaker 1: after working the floor. So I owe you a lot,
Speaker 1: and I'm not sure that I've explicitly ever told you
Speaker 1: like that. So this is and you don't owe me anything, brother,
Speaker 1: I mean those I don't know what to say, you know,
Speaker 1: it's it's just been really interesting journey and to see
Speaker 1: how I've been able to touch a lot of different people.
Speaker 1: But the fact that you say that is inspiring to me.
Speaker 1: You know, it's a circle and I think that's the
Speaker 1: reason why we've been able to jive and connect it
Speaker 1: because we really feed off each other. So thank you
Speaker 1: for those those words. I wanna kind of go in
Speaker 1: a chronological order of your life and career, beginning with
Speaker 1: where you were born. I believe you're from Trenton, New Jersey.
Speaker 1: Is that right? Trenton makes the world takes right? So
Speaker 1: so tell me about your your childhood growing up in Trenton.
Speaker 1: My mom had was a single parent. She was sixteen
Speaker 1: when she had me, and then finally when she was
Speaker 1: old enough to join the military. She joined the military
Speaker 1: and went off to Basic, and you know, I spent
Speaker 1: three years or so. They're living with my aunt, and
Speaker 1: you know, my mom would come back and that kind
Speaker 1: of stuff. And then finally she came back to get
Speaker 1: me and we moved to Killeen, Texas. And so, you know,
Speaker 1: Texas has been part of my blood very early on.
Speaker 1: And you know, Trenton, I do feel like I grew
Speaker 1: up there in a way, because you know, I spent
Speaker 1: the first fifteen summers of my life there. You know,
Speaker 1: it was kind of a source of independence for me
Speaker 1: because because I would travel back during the summers without
Speaker 1: my mother, without my parents, you know, it would be
Speaker 1: me and I would stay with my grant aunt and
Speaker 1: my cousins lived right around the corner. And you know,
Speaker 1: I feel like, you know, going to like private school
Speaker 1: and all those kind of things in Texas and then
Speaker 1: spinning the summers during the crack of ecademic in Trenton,
Speaker 1: New Jersey, you know, really made me streets so smart,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. I felt like I had
Speaker 1: a really great balance of the world of the you know,
Speaker 1: the streets and suburbia, so to speak. I have very
Speaker 1: fond memories of it. It was it was really you know,
Speaker 1: I really shaped who I am today. You know when
Speaker 1: you realize that, you know, it's like being able to
Speaker 1: have you know, foot in each world in two different worlds,
Speaker 1: so to speak, which is really defines my company to
Speaker 1: this day. It's based on no our wines, which really
Speaker 1: encapsulates and embodies like who I am as a person.
Speaker 1: You know, I was a kid who grew up on
Speaker 1: hip hop, and then I grew up and punk rock
Speaker 1: in skateboarding, and then that was something that you know,
Speaker 1: I found in Texas, right, And you know, those are
Speaker 1: those two things, those two different worlds that now seemed
Speaker 1: closer together than they ever had before. But those were
Speaker 1: two separate, different kinds of people. And then growing up
Speaker 1: and then falling in love with wine and then being
Speaker 1: able to put all of those three things together is
Speaker 1: really what Mason no Wire is about. I want to
Speaker 1: ask you about your your time in Texas because you're
Speaker 1: talking about kind of this foot in two worlds experience.
Speaker 1: How were your peers responding to you when you were
Speaker 1: coming back from Trenton with all your new gear, your
Speaker 1: new lingo music, Like, what was that like in Texas.
Speaker 1: It's kind of like, oh man, you guys ain't up
Speaker 1: on this yet. You wait and see. You know, that
Speaker 1: was always my defense. This is how they're rocking it there,
Speaker 1: you know. And and and you have to say, because
Speaker 1: I played sports already kind of had a peer group,
Speaker 1: you know, so like they kind of got it and
Speaker 1: didn't get it. I assimilated very quickly, you know what
Speaker 1: I mean. You know, growing up up with your parents
Speaker 1: in the in the in the in the army, in
Speaker 1: the military, you learned to assimilate to be all is one.
Speaker 1: And we moved almost every two years, which I liked.
Speaker 1: I mean, I truly did love that part of like
Speaker 1: being able to travel and seeing a new place, and
Speaker 1: you know, that was something special to me. Like, you know,
Speaker 1: I just learned to get along with everybody, and that's
Speaker 1: kind of you know, that's how you know, that's how
Speaker 1: I got into the service business, right, being able to
Speaker 1: being a waiter and being able to walk up to
Speaker 1: a table with strangers and talk to them. Although that
Speaker 1: came easy to me. Well, and your your first job
Speaker 1: as a waiter was not at per se, uh, what
Speaker 1: was your your entry point into the hospitality industry? I
Speaker 1: would say F and B. It was like all the
Speaker 1: kids they got a job at McDonald's. You know. I
Speaker 1: was sixteen and got a job at the McDonald's right
Speaker 1: around the corner on the way to like Sea World.
Speaker 1: And my first four ring into waiting cables actually came
Speaker 1: from working at Red Loss Are actually, which I believe
Speaker 1: that was a slew of a whole bunch of famous
Speaker 1: people that used to I think Little Kim used to
Speaker 1: work there, Chris Rock used to work there. But I
Speaker 1: worked there, but I worked, I was I put the
Speaker 1: cocktail sauces on the plate, and you know, and I
Speaker 1: think waiting tables seemed slightly daunting to me, like oh wow,
Speaker 1: that like and it wasn't the part of like going
Speaker 1: to talk to the table, but like they were managing
Speaker 1: a whole bunch of different things and all that, and
Speaker 1: it just seemed like, man, that's a lot of work.
Speaker 1: And so I started to realize how much they more
Speaker 1: they were making than me, and they were at work
Speaker 1: less than me. You know. I started to ask that
Speaker 1: general manager like, hey, you know, you know, I really
Speaker 1: want to be a waiter, and you know, you could
Speaker 1: tell you're not. I don't think so blah blah blah,
Speaker 1: and then he would tell me that they're not hiring.
Speaker 1: And then one day I saw in the paper that
Speaker 1: they were hiring, and so I came in early in
Speaker 1: a suit and applied in the neper you mean, and yeah,
Speaker 1: in the newspaper that they in the classifies that they
Speaker 1: were hired, and nobody recognized me when I walked in.
Speaker 1: And then finally was like, imdry, is that you I
Speaker 1: was like yeah, And I think that showed him how
Speaker 1: serious I was about about wanting to be a waiter,
Speaker 1: and I kept plugging at it, and then finally they
Speaker 1: let me be a waiter, and that was kind of it.
Speaker 1: You know. I was like, you know, less than six months,
Speaker 1: I was like the best water at this point, it
Speaker 1: was probably I was drinking then, so I was. I
Speaker 1: was probably like twenty. I would have to say I
Speaker 1: turned one work in there. You know. It was a
Speaker 1: big thing for me of like understanding that, like, as
Speaker 1: an adult, most of your day is consumed by working.
Speaker 1: I didn't have that, like, you know, I wasn't playing basketball,
Speaker 1: and I think once I embraced it, it was it
Speaker 1: was over. Like you know what I mean, I just
Speaker 1: showed up to work in the morning and I left
Speaker 1: at night. And that's kind of how that started. I
Speaker 1: was always afraid to leave. I worked at Red Lobster
Speaker 1: for long. I mean, I'm probably about eight years off
Speaker 1: and on. And you know, I'm a I'm a weird person, right,
Speaker 1: you know, I'm kind of like a type eight personality.
Speaker 1: And I tried to keep myself busy and and a
Speaker 1: lot of times it's like finding something new, so it
Speaker 1: becomes an obsession. So it was like, oh, hey, I
Speaker 1: wanted to learn how to play chess. So I bought
Speaker 1: like eleven books on chess, read all about him and
Speaker 1: was playing on the computer. After that, it was tennis.
Speaker 1: After that, it was riding horses, right, I wanted to
Speaker 1: learn how to ride. And then I met these guys
Speaker 1: over at the San Antonio Polo Club and they invited
Speaker 1: me down to this tournament, this tournament in Houston, and
Speaker 1: you know, they're playing, and after wards they went to
Speaker 1: this place called the Palm, the Steakhouse, and you know,
Speaker 1: everybody the wine is flowing, and you know, it was amazing,
Speaker 1: it was great, and it was just so funny that
Speaker 1: I remember looking at the bottle of wine and trying
Speaker 1: to find it on the on their wine list and
Speaker 1: then finding it and realizing that, like, oh, wait a minute,
Speaker 1: this is three a bottle. And then I realized, like, well,
Speaker 1: wait a minute, it's the same name over and over.
Speaker 1: The vintage is different. And then I matched the vintage
Speaker 1: and it was like seven hundred bucks, you know, and
Speaker 1: they were just ordering it like I mean, it was
Speaker 1: just I mean, just me and going. I was like, wow,
Speaker 1: that's a lot of money. And you know, I come
Speaker 1: back from that experience, I'm in San Antonio and I
Speaker 1: was kind of like, wow, you know what, looking the
Speaker 1: class applies again. And the place that we're at was
Speaker 1: the Palm Steakhouse and they were opening one in San
Speaker 1: Antonio and that's that's that marks the beginning of where
Speaker 1: I started to get serious about not just food but wine. Right,
Speaker 1: how old are you? I was probably about twenty seven.
Speaker 1: I believe. It was during that time that I started
Speaker 1: to watch this show called Frasier, Hey Baby, and he
Speaker 1: had the blues a call in toss salads and spambled eggs.
Speaker 1: You know. It was these two pompous brothers and the
Speaker 1: way that they talked about wine and that they had
Speaker 1: like this daily sherry ritual really piqued my interests. You know,
Speaker 1: I was like, Wow, these guys seem to be having
Speaker 1: so much fun with wine, Like, you know, it made
Speaker 1: me feel like I was missing out and I was
Speaker 1: like wow. And so you know, I'd beat armed with
Speaker 1: my little budget and I would go into a one shot.
Speaker 1: I mean, that show really gave me the courage to
Speaker 1: walk into a wine shop. You know, from the outside
Speaker 1: looking in, you know, there's no one in there that
Speaker 1: looks like me. But at this point in my life,
Speaker 1: I'm kind of comfortable with that, right because that's every
Speaker 1: day of my life, right, you know, you know what
Speaker 1: I mean, it's every day of my life that you know,
Speaker 1: if I stopped to look around, I would probably be
Speaker 1: the only person that looked like me in the room.
Speaker 1: And so at that point I was kind of okay
Speaker 1: with that, but it still felt pretty pretentious. But it
Speaker 1: was that show. You know. Never did I think from
Speaker 1: watching that show that I have aspirations of of doing
Speaker 1: what I do now or being a some way, And
Speaker 1: none of those things crossed my mind. It was just like,
Speaker 1: those dudes are having a good time. I'm going to
Speaker 1: walk in the store with my twelve bucks and get
Speaker 1: something to drink. So obviously the poem at a certain
Speaker 1: moment in time was kind of important stepping stone restaurant,
Speaker 1: I think to the way that we think about contemporary
Speaker 1: restaurant culture. But back in the day, the Palm was
Speaker 1: like really a spot, I mean a kind of spot
Speaker 1: where you go drop seven online. At what point did
Speaker 1: you decide like you wanted to move beyond what you
Speaker 1: were seeing at the Palm in San Antonio. San Antonio
Speaker 1: started to grow and we would have, you know, we
Speaker 1: had some transfers from other places, and I was just
Speaker 1: I was just really into like food culture. And I
Speaker 1: remember one day after my break, coming back in for
Speaker 1: the dinner ship, there was a resume that was sitting
Speaker 1: on the bar and I grabbed that resume and I
Speaker 1: started to look at it. I grabbed it and I
Speaker 1: took it back to the manager's office and I said, hey,
Speaker 1: I said, did you see the guy the person that
Speaker 1: dropped this resume off? And they were like, oh yeah.
Speaker 1: I talked to him. I was like, you're hiring this person, right,
Speaker 1: and they looked at me, like, what are you talking too.
Speaker 1: I was like, this guy has worked at to the
Speaker 1: top ten places and bone appetites latest issue of like
Speaker 1: the best restaurants to work in in America and they
Speaker 1: were like, what are you talking about? And so I
Speaker 1: had to go get the issue. And that was a
Speaker 1: person from New York. He had worked at Grammercy and
Speaker 1: I forgot you worked at some other place here in
Speaker 1: New York. It was through other people from other cities
Speaker 1: coming into the Palm talking to me and getting to
Speaker 1: know me and then being like what the hell are
Speaker 1: you doing here? And I was like, well, what do
Speaker 1: you mean? And they're like, dude, that you don't belong here,
Speaker 1: and I was like, of course I do. I live here,
Speaker 1: you know. And it was kind of that thing of
Speaker 1: like no, no, no, dude, like you you should really
Speaker 1: get out and go some other places. And you know,
Speaker 1: that was kind of it. And you know, I had
Speaker 1: become like the de facto wine person there, like all
Speaker 1: my peers, all the waiters. They didn't have some MOA's there,
Speaker 1: but all the waiters would come to me and asked
Speaker 1: me to go talk to their tables about wine. And
Speaker 1: I really started to dig deep into the wine aspect
Speaker 1: of it and it was awesome. And then what happened
Speaker 1: was is that there was a steakhouse that was moving
Speaker 1: in right next door. The general manager was a friend
Speaker 1: of mine and he was like, how would you like
Speaker 1: to run your first wine program? And that was that
Speaker 1: I was all in. I was like, whatever it took,
Speaker 1: and so I quit the problem to work about fifty
Speaker 1: you know, really next door at a place called Bohannon Steakhouse,
Speaker 1: and that was my first summily a gig, and you know,
Speaker 1: it was a really great experience. You know, I tasted
Speaker 1: over three thousand wines to put together, you know, this little, small,
Speaker 1: little two and fifty selection wine list. But that was
Speaker 1: a huge education for me. You know, it was a
Speaker 1: way to really get to understand my palette. When I
Speaker 1: was into what I wasn't into. And I decided that
Speaker 1: I had to be vulnerable because I really turned myself
Speaker 1: over to the sales rep the people who had years
Speaker 1: of experience and granted knowing that they were trying to
Speaker 1: sell me something and there were the ones that were
Speaker 1: genuine and the ones that weren't. And you know I
Speaker 1: figured out that quickly. But I really I really started
Speaker 1: to excel in as you know, as I started to
Speaker 1: run my own program. And I always tell the story
Speaker 1: about like, you know, I just didn't know. I called
Speaker 1: all the top restaurants in the country. Some of them
Speaker 1: had websites, some of them didn't, and not a lot
Speaker 1: of them had their their wine list. I remember calling
Speaker 1: one place and they were like, we can fax it
Speaker 1: to you, so they factually a copy of their wine list.
Speaker 1: And as I had, like, you know, probably I don't
Speaker 1: want to say, like eight different wine lists from the
Speaker 1: top restaurants in the United States, and I just started
Speaker 1: to go through each section. You know, you go through
Speaker 1: and you say, okay, all right, so where this is shiable.
Speaker 1: Everybody seems to have this producer called Ravenel, all right,
Speaker 1: so Ravenuel must be good, right, So and then you
Speaker 1: I go read about Raveno, and then I would have
Speaker 1: to go try to find someone who had it in
Speaker 1: the state. And then I moved pretty quickly. And then
Speaker 1: you know, I felt like I was doing all this
Speaker 1: studying and and I was trying to figure out, like
Speaker 1: how do I really know any of this stuff? Like
Speaker 1: if I'm not using it on the floor, do I
Speaker 1: really know what kind of thing? And then that's when
Speaker 1: I started to take all these different certifications. So I
Speaker 1: took the first level of everything that existed you know,
Speaker 1: so w S T Quarter of the Master, whatever I
Speaker 1: could find, I did. You know, all those things led
Speaker 1: to opportunities, and I met a lot of different people
Speaker 1: in the way. You know. I donated a thousand dollars
Speaker 1: a week to Stage and Charlie Trotters because I didn't
Speaker 1: know that all you had to do was asking. Generally,
Speaker 1: if you were industry, they would let you do it
Speaker 1: for free. You didn't have to pay them, right, so
Speaker 1: you paid to work at Charlie Trotters. Charlie's books Lessons
Speaker 1: and Service really changed the outlook all my life and
Speaker 1: and really taking this working in hospitality as a real career.
Speaker 1: And I read in the book that he would let
Speaker 1: chefs come and hang out in the kitchen if they
Speaker 1: donated a thousand dollars, you know, like other chefs you know,
Speaker 1: from other restaurants around that. And I had already written
Speaker 1: a check and so they were, you know, they were like, dude,
Speaker 1: you didn't have to pay the money. It's like, well,
Speaker 1: you guys already have it. So but it was awesome.
Speaker 1: I mean, I had a really great time, and it
Speaker 1: affirmed a lot of the things that I was doing
Speaker 1: in my program already, right, the things that I had
Speaker 1: implemented in the systems that I hadn't were on point
Speaker 1: and on part of what they were doing there, and
Speaker 1: even some of it. I was like, why do you
Speaker 1: guys do it this way? You know at my place
Speaker 1: is how we do it. They're like, really, that's how
Speaker 1: you do it. You know, like that's pretty cool, you
Speaker 1: know what I mean. So it was really a huge
Speaker 1: validation for what I was doing because I felt pretty isolated,
Speaker 1: and so that was that was a big deal. It
Speaker 1: was a pretty big deal for me along this journey,
Speaker 1: you know, I had about all these great people and
Speaker 1: then you know, I had met Paul Roberts, who earlier
Speaker 1: in that week I made him. I met him like
Speaker 1: on a Thursday, but earlier in that week he accepted
Speaker 1: the job to be the beverage director for all of
Speaker 1: Thomas Colors properties, and after spending a shift on the
Speaker 1: floor working the floor together with him, he asked me
Speaker 1: if I wanted to come to the French laundry. That
Speaker 1: was just like, uh, and the rest is kind of history.
Speaker 1: It was. I mean, people talk about luck all the time,
Speaker 1: and I don't. It's not something that I believe in.
Speaker 1: I believe that you prepare for those occasions, and when
Speaker 1: those opportunities come, you're either prepared for them or not,
Speaker 1: or you rise to the occasion you're ready. So what
Speaker 1: I'm really curious what you feel has been the most
Speaker 1: significant kind of cultural shift for Samoyer's in America over
Speaker 1: the course of your career, because, as you said, when
Speaker 1: you were coming up, there was only one master Smollier
Speaker 1: in the entire state of Texas, and now you know
Speaker 1: there are more. Master Smoier's wine is a little bit
Speaker 1: more part of the culture. And yet the role of
Speaker 1: the Samoier in like two thousand nineteen is kind of
Speaker 1: more ambiguous than it has been in a long time.
Speaker 1: So can you just speak on what your observations have
Speaker 1: been about the role of the samoier in your career.
Speaker 1: Each generation wants to reinvent it. You know, they have
Speaker 1: a different interpretation that you know, and you think about,
Speaker 1: you know, some of the first says wearing you know,
Speaker 1: wearing tuxedos and rocking a taste of on right, and
Speaker 1: then that was it, and then the next generation would
Speaker 1: come along and we would change it. And it seems
Speaker 1: like each generation wants to have its own own mark
Speaker 1: on it. Right, you know what I mean, like where
Speaker 1: you know, you look at something like natural wine now
Speaker 1: versus like I always came in on the tell part
Speaker 1: of a generation that really introduced development to Americans where
Speaker 1: you would go to a restaurant and they had more
Speaker 1: grew developing it than they had merlot before sideways right right.
Speaker 1: But also I feel like the role of and how
Speaker 1: of a summery has changed because the roles of restaurants
Speaker 1: have really changed, and the and the role of a
Speaker 1: chef has really changed. And you know, and I do
Speaker 1: give some credit to that two Food Network, you know
Speaker 1: where I look at it and I see by putting
Speaker 1: chefs on TV, Yeah, it did peak everybody American's curiosity
Speaker 1: about food. And I feel like right now, at this
Speaker 1: point in two thousand nineteen, Americans food i Q is
Speaker 1: at its hies even its wine i Q is that
Speaker 1: its science has ever been. And I do attribute it
Speaker 1: to to Food Network, you know, tuition, you know, a
Speaker 1: lot more kids joint culinary school. But also what I
Speaker 1: would say is is that people's fascination with fame is
Speaker 1: at an all time high. The reason why we have
Speaker 1: the president that we have is because of that, you know,
Speaker 1: and so Food Network gave this pathway to chefs for
Speaker 1: celebrity and putting chefs on television and people people wanted
Speaker 1: to glamour. And when when people start to see the
Speaker 1: glamour and those things, than obviously more people flocked to
Speaker 1: it same thing, more and more. You know, you have
Speaker 1: more high fail profile restaurants. Those people have some WA's
Speaker 1: and then something like you know, the Psalm series takes off. Yeah,
Speaker 1: this plan, you know, for thousands and thousands of years,
Speaker 1: I mean, people have been dedicating their life to make
Speaker 1: something amazing out of it. It is living art and
Speaker 1: you can't appreciate it until you consume it. It's a
Speaker 1: lot more than just Grape's and you know, and more
Speaker 1: and more people want to be a part of that
Speaker 1: sal amazing professionals that are supposed the experts about knowing
Speaker 1: about beverage in the wine palms. Now how to come
Speaker 1: the new rocks starts in our industry. Some of the
Speaker 1: most dedicated, obsessed people. But also I think that we've
Speaker 1: all shifted. You know, everybody wants to be an entrepreneur.
Speaker 1: It sounds much more exciting than actually what you might do,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. But that's what it is.
Speaker 1: You know, I heard a friend say the other day,
Speaker 1: you know, rappers wanted to be ballers, and ballers wanted
Speaker 1: to be rappers. Now they all want to be mobiles, right,
Speaker 1: So it's all shifted, and so you know, it's not
Speaker 1: the same as before. It's like you were joining the
Speaker 1: daytime you were you were counting inventory and writing lists
Speaker 1: and doing education, and that night you put on your
Speaker 1: top hat and it was showtime and you got on
Speaker 1: the floor and you shook hands and you poured wine.
Speaker 1: I think less of that kind of happens now. You know,
Speaker 1: you have a lot of young people who are doing
Speaker 1: the grunt work on the floor. For me, I felt
Speaker 1: like I always wanted to do things that the show
Speaker 1: other some ways that that there's that there's other stuff
Speaker 1: to do, And that was, you know, Paul Greco Greco Hello,
Speaker 1: I'm Paul Greco. Up to war Wine Barn. We are
Speaker 1: here to talk about the stuff that's in this glass wine,
Speaker 1: or at least in my world, grape juice. And yes,
Speaker 1: ladies and gentlemen, it is just that grape juice with alcohol,
Speaker 1: and it has been with us since man's first steps
Speaker 1: on this bloody planet Earth, and for that I revere it.
Speaker 1: One day he said to me, He's like, when he
Speaker 1: found out I was making wines, I'm kind of skipping down.
Speaker 1: He's like, hey, why don't you bring the wines by?
Speaker 1: You know, we love to support Samya based projects because
Speaker 1: we want to show other some way's that there's life
Speaker 1: after the floor. And I just thought that was remarkable,
Speaker 1: he said. I mean, he blew my mind even right now.
Speaker 1: I got chills. I was like, wow, like and here
Speaker 1: I was, I was like competitive and all this other ship,
Speaker 1: and I realized that no, no, your eyes absolutely right.
Speaker 1: And so for me, from that moment on, I wanted
Speaker 1: to do things that I didn't see other some way
Speaker 1: he's doing right, pushing the boundaries and say that no,
Speaker 1: we belong here too, and we can do these things too,
Speaker 1: you know, Like I tell I was like, I don't
Speaker 1: want to be in any wine magazine. I want to
Speaker 1: be in the drops of God, you know, the coloring
Speaker 1: of the comic book, right, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1: I just didn't think that we should just be combined
Speaker 1: to just wine magazines that were so much more than
Speaker 1: that and offer different things and we all have interesting
Speaker 1: lives and that kind of stuff. And so that for
Speaker 1: me is really the route I pursued. It wasn't just
Speaker 1: scratching the itch and wanted to be an entreneur. Making
Speaker 1: wine to me was really about out first and foremost
Speaker 1: was really wanting to continue to learn about wine from
Speaker 1: a different focal point. So how long have you've just
Speaker 1: been working as a samoyer when you decided to transition
Speaker 1: into winemaking. Let's see, probably about six years. I was like, wow, okay,
Speaker 1: so I've done this for a long time, and I've
Speaker 1: given every In those six years, I've worked a lot,
Speaker 1: like you know, you know what I mean. It wasn't like,
Speaker 1: oh yeah, no I did my ship. No. I worked
Speaker 1: a lot like yeah, I should show up at seven
Speaker 1: o'clock before anybody was there. That's three hours before anybody
Speaker 1: gets to work, right, you know what I mean? And
Speaker 1: I was like the one of the last people to leave.
Speaker 1: I just like for me, I just felt so behind,
Speaker 1: right because I felt like I got a late start.
Speaker 1: And so for me, I was always on this two
Speaker 1: for one three for one ship, like I just need
Speaker 1: to be around here and I need to be reductive,
Speaker 1: like I just you know, you can't substitute floor experience.
Speaker 1: Not being on the floor, right, you know, there's no
Speaker 1: way to really make that up except to be on
Speaker 1: the floor. And so for me, I've worked a lot
Speaker 1: and I was in the restaurant a lot, and I
Speaker 1: had kind of gotten away from that, you know, at
Speaker 1: per Se, you know, I had five other sums worked
Speaker 1: for me. I had a team of five, and so
Speaker 1: I didn't get the touch wine in the way that
Speaker 1: I used to, right, And I spent a lot of time,
Speaker 1: you know, managing people in and not just my team,
Speaker 1: but like being part of managers, meeting in front of
Speaker 1: the house, meetings, menu planning meetings, contingency planned meetings because
Speaker 1: the m t A was going on strike, you know,
Speaker 1: all of these things that really I felt that I
Speaker 1: was moving further and further away from wine. And I
Speaker 1: was like, Okay, I want to change up here, and
Speaker 1: I want to I won't even want to learn about wine.
Speaker 1: And the only way to do that is is to
Speaker 1: go make my own. If I can make my own,
Speaker 1: That simultaneously scratched all these other issues I had. I
Speaker 1: always had a longing to be an entrepreneur on my
Speaker 1: own thing. And I also realized in that time that
Speaker 1: I was working for Thomas that that I was creative,
Speaker 1: like it was something that I just never knew. Maybe
Speaker 1: I just never recognize those things. And I could do
Speaker 1: all of that if I if I could make my
Speaker 1: own wine, I could continue to learn about wine, I
Speaker 1: could be an entrepreneur. And because I own that company,
Speaker 1: it would give me more creative license, no doubt. And
Speaker 1: I when I think about the position that you are
Speaker 1: in today, it's a really unique position because you have
Speaker 1: managed to still be very much rooted in the wine
Speaker 1: industry as a as a wine maker, but you have
Speaker 1: a lot of other projects that are popping um. You
Speaker 1: have you know, really stepped into the role of entrepreneurs.
Speaker 1: So can you talk about like how you think about
Speaker 1: your work or how you describe the work that you do,
Speaker 1: and how you see wine fitting into that work given
Speaker 1: all the different kinds of projects that you now have.
Speaker 1: And so wine is always been the foundation, will always
Speaker 1: be and a lot of the opportunities and the things
Speaker 1: that we have now actually grew from out of me
Speaker 1: San Noir. And so you know, for me, it's it's
Speaker 1: all fun, right, it doesn't it doesn't. It never seems
Speaker 1: like it's worked. From making wine is like something fun
Speaker 1: and awesome and being able to like just really contribute
Speaker 1: to the culture of wine, this new culture of wine,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. Like when I started, we
Speaker 1: would take we make a wine called other People's Pano
Speaker 1: on the front label says opp And there were people
Speaker 1: that we presented the wine too, that we're embarrassed they
Speaker 1: wouldn't they wouldn't buy the wine because they couldn't picture
Speaker 1: it on their back bar, which I just thought was
Speaker 1: so ridiculous. It's irreverend, you know, the labels are your
Speaker 1: reverend for what it stands for the company and how
Speaker 1: I carrid, but you know, we were Irreverend. It was
Speaker 1: you know, it was a lot of times it was
Speaker 1: bucking the system. You know, it doesn't all have to
Speaker 1: look like what it used to look like. And just
Speaker 1: the fact that I showed up anywhere within the confines
Speaker 1: of wine and or or building this company, or going
Speaker 1: to taste or interacting with the wine community, I challenge
Speaker 1: the status quo just by showing up because there was
Speaker 1: no one who looked like me. And of course everybody
Speaker 1: put their foot in their mouth, right, you know what
Speaker 1: I mean, because they just didn't know, you know, they
Speaker 1: didn't know how to say it, but I got I understood,
Speaker 1: like you're just not used to seeing people like me
Speaker 1: in this role, and hopefully one day that will change.
Speaker 1: But Wine has always been the foundation for what for
Speaker 1: what we do and to stretch the boundaries and to
Speaker 1: add to the culture like from us. You know, we
Speaker 1: integrated like streetwear and street and skateboarding all into into
Speaker 1: Wine and we treated our T shirt line as as
Speaker 1: a streetwear line and that was really you know, that's
Speaker 1: really been satisfying. It's really contributed to like no one
Speaker 1: had T shirts like how we were making them. Now
Speaker 1: everybody has them. I just wanted to do ship that's cool.
Speaker 1: You know. We made a video game, and so in
Speaker 1: two thousand and fourteen, we came out with a coloring
Speaker 1: book called Small Time Cooks and it was just really fun,
Speaker 1: kind of novelty, and it's novelty about food knowledge and
Speaker 1: had your favorite chefs and food personalities and mind people
Speaker 1: in it. And it's been really fun. And by the way,
Speaker 1: you know, I've committed to twenty volumes of that thing,
Speaker 1: so we've only had one come out. And you did
Speaker 1: all the illustrations in there too, right, Yeah, yeah, I
Speaker 1: did all of it. You know, and that's what was
Speaker 1: really create great right being able to. And I also
Speaker 1: I self published it, all of it, because I wanted
Speaker 1: to see the process from start to finish, uh, and
Speaker 1: I wanted to own that. And most recently, you know,
Speaker 1: I wrote a book and Abrams is publishing it, and
Speaker 1: so we went the route of of working with the publisher,
Speaker 1: which has been a very very very very very different
Speaker 1: experience for me, but nonetheless it is done. It is
Speaker 1: called Nine Bottles, a Black Sheep's Guide to Life Changing Wines.
Speaker 1: I know that sounds pretentious in some ways, but when
Speaker 1: I say life changing minds, we mean the wines that
Speaker 1: have changed my life and have shaped my life. So
Speaker 1: the book is partment war and part wine guide. We
Speaker 1: highlight and talk about the bottles that shape my wine
Speaker 1: life story. So it's got illustrations and you know, it
Speaker 1: has my own branded sense of humor. Um, we're opening
Speaker 1: the family business called and Sons here in Brooklyn, and
Speaker 1: that is an American chicouterie bar. So it's all American chicouterie,
Speaker 1: all American cheese, uh, and all American wine with the
Speaker 1: focus on wines from the sixties, seventies, eighties, and nineties.
Speaker 1: So reminiscent of the famous Hammon bars that you see
Speaker 1: in Barcelona. This is my attempt to share with the
Speaker 1: world that I believe that Kentucky and Tennessee and Virginia
Speaker 1: are like our stain in Italy. And want to tell
Speaker 1: you know, we've been curing hams for a very long
Speaker 1: time and I really want to be able to share
Speaker 1: that with people. And I think it's a preservation of
Speaker 1: American food culture. So really tiny twenty seat bar, plates
Speaker 1: of ham, plates of cheese, really great wine, and the
Speaker 1: next stor we have our buttery, which is h which
Speaker 1: is our little deli that you can buy the meats
Speaker 1: and cheeses to go. So just really trying to like
Speaker 1: I don't know, haven't done like like live our best lives.
Speaker 1: I mean, you know. Also, I just feel like, you know,
Speaker 1: people who work in restaurants to me, they just seem
Speaker 1: to be better people, you know, they have a different
Speaker 1: better understanding of people's needs and wants and those kind
Speaker 1: of things that I feel like it's important for my
Speaker 1: kids to to do some of that, to grow up
Speaker 1: in that. And so we wanted to introduce these things
Speaker 1: to the world, you know, and my neighborhood is changing,
Speaker 1: and I felt like, what better way to be a
Speaker 1: part of the narrative of what this new neighborhood is
Speaker 1: going to be than being able to for me and
Speaker 1: my wife to be able to offer something to contribute
Speaker 1: to the said narrative. And we've worked in restaurants all
Speaker 1: our life, and you know this, this place is really
Speaker 1: just an extension of our living room where we love
Speaker 1: to host people and have parties, and you know, just
Speaker 1: taking it the next step. You know, my wife was like,
Speaker 1: I need I need my vegetable Christopher back, you know
Speaker 1: what I mean. So I was trying to about um
Speaker 1: I a credit how I was seeing the world to
Speaker 1: you know. Two thousand four, in New York, David Chang
Speaker 1: opens up Momofuko and going there and like knowing his
Speaker 1: background and then seeing the kind of food that he
Speaker 1: was putting out to me, it changed everything. You know,
Speaker 1: people thought I was crazy. I was like, dude, do
Speaker 1: you understand everything's gonna change? And they're like, what are
Speaker 1: you talking about? Like and you know, so I go
Speaker 1: from like hanging out there two or three nights a
Speaker 1: week and then walking through the kitchen at per Se
Speaker 1: during a busy service, and you realize that there's forty
Speaker 1: kids back there, all bent over a plate with tweezers
Speaker 1: and ship and you realize you're like all of those guys,
Speaker 1: almost all of them aspired to be restauranturs one day.
Speaker 1: Only a small percentage of them aspired to actually have
Speaker 1: a restaurant like the one they were currently working at,
Speaker 1: Like Michelin three Star. They wanted to do it on
Speaker 1: their own terms, so wearing shell to Padita's, wearing a
Speaker 1: black Sabbath T shirt and listening to their own music.
Speaker 1: That didn't mean that the food was any less less quality,
Speaker 1: Like you didn't need your way to wear a two
Speaker 1: Amani tie, you didn't need to wear a Gucci soup.
Speaker 1: And it was that moment that I was like, and
Speaker 1: I was like, all of these guys are going to
Speaker 1: go back to where they came from. You know, eventually
Speaker 1: the roosters come home to roost, and I want to
Speaker 1: I want to make wine for those restaurants. That was
Speaker 1: my target was those restaurants. And I was gonna show
Speaker 1: up dressed the way that I was, and the chef
Speaker 1: was going to be dressed the way that they were.
Speaker 1: It just it just changed the game and I realized
Speaker 1: that I wanted to make wine for these for those
Speaker 1: new restaurants because everything was gonna be. It just came
Speaker 1: without all the pomp and circumstance. Well, you had the vision, man,
Speaker 1: and you have been a pioneer in so many ways,
Speaker 1: as a summer as a winemaker, as an illustrator, independent publisher,
Speaker 1: as an author, as a soon to be homme bar owner,
Speaker 1: as a watch up onner, etcetera, etcetera. I know I've
Speaker 1: I've already probably done you some disservices. Oh yeah, and
Speaker 1: the video GameMaker too. So big shout out to you
Speaker 1: man for everything that you've done and continue to do.
Speaker 1: Huge inspiration, as I said, not just for me and
Speaker 1: so many others in and outside of the industry. Really
Speaker 1: appreciate you and appreciate you coming to chat with us
Speaker 1: today about your work in your life. Anytime, my friend, anytime.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much. Um, alright, thank you, thank you.
Speaker 1: I appreciate you man. That was and Mac the founder
Speaker 1: of mice on Noir. We can find him online at
Speaker 1: Mac Mac with a K, and that's on Instagram. You
Speaker 1: want to follow mess on our Wines, just mess on
Speaker 1: no our Wines is our handle. Across all social media.
Speaker 1: All right, check them out. All right, man, I appreciate you.
Speaker 1: I'll talk to you soon. Well, my friend, thank you
Speaker 1: all right? Are you too? H m hm m m
Speaker 1: m m m m m m m m m m.
Speaker 1: And that's it for this episode. Point of Origin is
Speaker 1: a podcast from My Heart Media and wet Stone Magazine,
Speaker 1: executive produced by Christopher Hasciotis and hosted by me Steven Saderfield.
Speaker 1: Special thanks to Cat Hong for editing, supervising producer Gabrielle Collins,
Speaker 1: and a very special thanks to my business partner, wet
Speaker 1: Stone co founder Melissa she who helped produce this podcast.
Speaker 1: Thanks mel and thanks to all of you for supporting
Speaker 1: wet Stone and listening to the Point of Origin podcast
Speaker 1: for all of the latest on all things point of Origin.
Speaker 1: You can follow us on Instagram at wet Stone Magazine
Speaker 1: or online at wet Stone Magazine dot com. We'll see
Speaker 1: you next week at the Point of Origin.