WEBVTT - Pan-African Libations: Anomalies and Disrupters 0:00:06.160 --> 0:00:15.240 Um, Welcome back to Point of Origin, the podcast about 0:00:15.280 --> 0:00:18.040 the world of food from around the world. I'm your host, 0:00:18.280 --> 0:00:26.279 Steven Saderfield m Our. Next guest, Nitziki Biela is a 0:00:26.360 --> 0:00:31.040 South African wine maker who runs at Selina Wines. She 0:00:31.360 --> 0:00:36.120 is one of the very first black female wine makers 0:00:36.400 --> 0:00:40.360 in the country. Nitzki is an old friend of mine 0:00:40.640 --> 0:00:43.920 from the days of the International Society of Africans and 0:00:43.920 --> 0:00:47.480 Wine or the I SAW Foundation, which was a nonprofit 0:00:47.560 --> 0:00:52.560 that worked to support black and indigenous wine makers, growers 0:00:52.760 --> 0:00:56.520 and exporters in the South African wine industry. And now 0:00:56.640 --> 0:01:00.400 Nitzki has gone off and started her own Inner Prize 0:01:00.400 --> 0:01:13.720 in Aslina Wines, which we will learn more about today. Natziki, 0:01:13.880 --> 0:01:16.760 thank you so much for joining us on Point of Origin. 0:01:17.400 --> 0:01:21.600 Thank you very much. Good to hear you. Yes, indeed, 0:01:23.040 --> 0:01:25.720 I'm doing really well. I'm so glad to hear your voice. 0:01:25.760 --> 0:01:29.680 It's been so long and very very long, very long, 0:01:29.800 --> 0:01:33.800 too long. I hope it's never this long again. I 0:01:33.880 --> 0:01:38.160 hope so, I hope so too. Are you in Stellenbosch 0:01:38.360 --> 0:01:42.680 or are you in Cape Town in so Dst in Summerset? Okay, 0:01:43.200 --> 0:01:46.559 I'm really really grateful that you made time for me today. 0:01:47.120 --> 0:01:51.040 So I have to start off by saying that I 0:01:51.080 --> 0:01:55.240 feel I owe you my entire life. And I mean 0:01:55.280 --> 0:01:59.360 that literally because when I first met you in two 0:01:59.400 --> 0:02:03.320 thousand and eight, it completely changed the direction of my life. 0:02:03.480 --> 0:02:07.400 I had been working as a samolier and really reading 0:02:07.400 --> 0:02:11.480 more about the history of the South African wine industry, 0:02:11.680 --> 0:02:15.720 learning about how it was colonized by the Dutch, and 0:02:15.800 --> 0:02:19.480 feeling a sense of wanting to insert myself in the 0:02:19.520 --> 0:02:23.680 story of South African wines beyond just you know, peddling 0:02:23.680 --> 0:02:27.960 the wines table side, but really acting as an advocate 0:02:28.120 --> 0:02:32.160 and an ally for the very few black men or 0:02:32.240 --> 0:02:35.720 women like yourself who were able to find their way 0:02:35.840 --> 0:02:39.000 into the top spot of winemaking. And so I've been 0:02:39.040 --> 0:02:42.240 so inspired by your work. It has led me to 0:02:42.400 --> 0:02:48.200 continue documenting and exploring and advocating for indigenous and marginalized 0:02:48.240 --> 0:02:51.480 groups throughout wine and agriculture. And it's all because of you. 0:02:51.639 --> 0:02:54.320 So thank you for all that you've done and continued 0:02:54.400 --> 0:02:56.880 to do. Thank you so much, Steven. That is so 0:02:56.960 --> 0:03:00.440 beautiful to hear. I think we sometimes to a point 0:03:00.440 --> 0:03:02.840 where we take it for granted what we do as 0:03:02.919 --> 0:03:06.320 individuals in different spaces or because we're feeling like, oh no, 0:03:06.400 --> 0:03:10.080 we're just peddling where we are, but actually to know 0:03:10.240 --> 0:03:14.120 that whatever we're peddling doing it is someone's inspiration, it 0:03:14.200 --> 0:03:18.520 always gets me humbled. Thank you, of course. So let's 0:03:18.560 --> 0:03:22.440 talk about your story. Can you orient us geographically where 0:03:22.480 --> 0:03:25.080 you grew up? Okay, so currently I'm based in the 0:03:25.080 --> 0:03:30.120 Western Cape, which is the most southwest of South Africa, 0:03:30.200 --> 0:03:34.640 and I'm from Baslontal, which is more north east of 0:03:34.800 --> 0:03:37.080 South Africa, but I'm more inland. So where I come 0:03:37.120 --> 0:03:41.120 from this basically it's a very liberal area where basically, 0:03:41.520 --> 0:03:43.920 if you would have told me about why I'm making 0:03:43.960 --> 0:03:46.400 and talking about where I am today, that I would 0:03:46.440 --> 0:03:50.200 have been here by now. I wouldn't even have had 0:03:50.240 --> 0:03:53.160 an idea what to talk about. I was applying to study. 0:03:53.400 --> 0:03:55.480 It's not like I applied because I knew I'm going 0:03:55.520 --> 0:03:57.920 to be doing winemaking. It was like, oh, there's a 0:03:57.920 --> 0:04:02.000 scholarship studying whatever are the wine making or the agriculture 0:04:02.080 --> 0:04:04.720 was saying. It was sort of like saying blah blah blah. 0:04:04.760 --> 0:04:07.440 But I saw studying and then there's funding and I 0:04:07.480 --> 0:04:11.080 was like, I'll do it. So that that's basically was 0:04:11.480 --> 0:04:14.760 my path to the to the to get to the industry. 0:04:15.080 --> 0:04:18.160 And it was just because you felt like there was 0:04:18.480 --> 0:04:23.560 an opportunity there or were you curious about why. No, 0:04:23.760 --> 0:04:27.160 for me, it was an opportunity to study. It was 0:04:27.200 --> 0:04:30.200 an opportunity to change my life. It was an opportunity 0:04:30.240 --> 0:04:34.000 to do something. It could have been anything, but I 0:04:34.040 --> 0:04:37.200 saw studying and I was like, yes, so much so 0:04:37.400 --> 0:04:39.000 even though when I was told that, oh no, the 0:04:39.279 --> 0:04:40.919 cause it is going to be in Afrikaans, I was like, 0:04:40.960 --> 0:04:44.440 oh no, that's fine. I learned um. But obviously I 0:04:44.440 --> 0:04:48.400 didn't have a sense of direction and feeling what that 0:04:48.480 --> 0:04:53.240 meant to say if it's an Afrikaans. So it was 0:04:53.279 --> 0:04:56.520 like I thought, you know what, whatever it is, I'm 0:04:56.520 --> 0:05:00.080 going to do it. I'll learn. And when you you 0:05:00.600 --> 0:05:04.160 grew up in Quasolon at all in the nineteen eighties, 0:05:04.560 --> 0:05:08.680 what was your childhood like? I think one of the 0:05:08.720 --> 0:05:12.480 things that get overlooked when you look at the childhood 0:05:12.640 --> 0:05:15.680 of the rural people. I think people look at and 0:05:15.720 --> 0:05:20.240 see poverty because it's not a lifestyle that is lived 0:05:20.360 --> 0:05:23.320 in the cities. It's not a lifestyle that is lived 0:05:23.320 --> 0:05:26.880 in the European style. But when you look at it. 0:05:27.040 --> 0:05:30.400 Actually in it, there's that sense of community, there's sense 0:05:30.440 --> 0:05:34.440 of love, there's sense of togetherness, which you do not 0:05:34.720 --> 0:05:38.240 find in the Western lifestyles. For me, when I was 0:05:38.279 --> 0:05:40.520 growing up, I think when I look back, one of 0:05:40.560 --> 0:05:42.640 the things I enjoyed the most because how I grew 0:05:42.720 --> 0:05:45.400 up with my grandmother and my grandfather. Because my mom 0:05:45.520 --> 0:05:48.080 was working as a domestic wreak and durban most of 0:05:48.080 --> 0:05:52.719 the time I was spending looking after cows and so 0:05:52.920 --> 0:05:54.640 I will spend most of the time with the boys, 0:05:55.320 --> 0:05:58.760 and I was milking cows. I was, you know, taking 0:05:58.800 --> 0:06:01.920 care of the the things within the family to make 0:06:01.960 --> 0:06:04.320 sure that okay, because they go to the tep, they 0:06:04.360 --> 0:06:06.800 come back. We do milking, we do this, we do that. 0:06:07.400 --> 0:06:10.360 And when I look back at that, it was the 0:06:10.360 --> 0:06:14.160 most beautiful thing that nowadays kids don't get to experience. 0:06:14.400 --> 0:06:18.240 These are the beautiful things that we miss. So you 0:06:18.360 --> 0:06:23.479 were obviously growing up with animals, with the relationship to 0:06:23.640 --> 0:06:26.719 the soil. Did it occur to you that when you 0:06:26.800 --> 0:06:30.760 would be going to study wine, was there part of 0:06:30.760 --> 0:06:33.840 you that thought or hoped that you might be able 0:06:33.880 --> 0:06:37.120 to continue that relationship. Yes, there was part of me 0:06:37.240 --> 0:06:40.000 that I hope I will be able to continue doing 0:06:40.040 --> 0:06:42.840 some of the things that I was doing, even though 0:06:43.200 --> 0:06:45.400 it was wine making. I think that part of saying 0:06:45.400 --> 0:06:48.280 agriculture for me, it did tell me that I'll be 0:06:48.360 --> 0:06:53.400 dealing with soil. And I remember one of my grandfather's 0:06:53.440 --> 0:06:56.240 in the village called me and said, my child, when 0:06:56.240 --> 0:06:58.560 I had that to studying agriculture, a really good worried 0:07:00.279 --> 0:07:04.680 and I was like, what is that agriculta these are 0:07:04.680 --> 0:07:07.240 things we're doing here. Why didn't you study to be 0:07:07.320 --> 0:07:11.600 a clerk just and be in the office. Because agriculture 0:07:11.800 --> 0:07:14.400 it's something that you're living on the on your daily basis. 0:07:14.720 --> 0:07:16.200 It's something that you don't think you can make a 0:07:16.200 --> 0:07:19.320 living on. It's something that is being looked at as 0:07:19.320 --> 0:07:23.200 small as the chip stuff to play your stuff. So 0:07:23.720 --> 0:07:26.240 why do you have studied it? But you know, it 0:07:26.280 --> 0:07:28.440 seems like a valid question. It reminds me a lot 0:07:28.520 --> 0:07:30.800 of when I was getting into food. A lot of 0:07:30.840 --> 0:07:35.880 my relatives, who you know, come from a legacy very 0:07:35.920 --> 0:07:39.640 similarly of domestic workers and working in kitchens in the 0:07:39.680 --> 0:07:44.200 South where there's the only jobs that were available, you know, 0:07:44.280 --> 0:07:47.080 to my great grandparents. When I said I want to 0:07:47.080 --> 0:07:50.920 go to culinary school and pursue food and cooking for 0:07:51.240 --> 0:07:53.800 a living there, like you're gonna pay money for that, 0:07:54.600 --> 0:07:58.320 Like you could just go work at a restaurant. Yeah, 0:07:58.640 --> 0:08:04.080 I completely under stand. It's really interesting part of our well. 0:08:04.160 --> 0:08:07.240 We have many parts of a shared history from the continent. 0:08:07.360 --> 0:08:11.160 But you know, looking at the role of African people 0:08:11.800 --> 0:08:17.160 and agriculture, it's a complicated story because, as you're alluding to, 0:08:17.400 --> 0:08:20.400 it is obviously so much a part of our history 0:08:20.560 --> 0:08:24.960 in Africa, and as the world has grown smaller and 0:08:25.000 --> 0:08:29.679 more industrialized, we have lost our relationship as African people, 0:08:29.760 --> 0:08:32.880 both on the continent to the land, but also here 0:08:32.920 --> 0:08:36.720 in the US with the legacy of slavery. There are 0:08:36.760 --> 0:08:41.600 so many African Americans who are tepid or reluctant about 0:08:41.640 --> 0:08:44.080 working on the land because we feel that, you know, 0:08:44.120 --> 0:08:47.000 we have to fight so hard to move into these 0:08:47.120 --> 0:08:51.800 clerical jobs, right and actually, why are you doing it 0:08:51.840 --> 0:08:54.439 for yourself and doing it for you you know, it's 0:08:54.480 --> 0:09:01.920 the own thing. It brings a different sense deafly so beautiful, 0:09:02.000 --> 0:09:04.800 so beautiful that you're part of that reclamation as well. 0:09:05.160 --> 0:09:08.480 So you're how old when you're in Stellenbush University, like 0:09:08.679 --> 0:09:12.079 nineteen years old, twenty years old. I was twenty years 0:09:12.120 --> 0:09:15.440 old when I when I came to the university. Actually 0:09:15.440 --> 0:09:17.440 when I got there, it was you know, that shock 0:09:17.480 --> 0:09:21.600 of culture, shock off this different world that I came 0:09:21.679 --> 0:09:25.360 to from its small village in the Royal areas where 0:09:25.360 --> 0:09:28.760 it's only black people, where everything is like here, you 0:09:28.800 --> 0:09:31.600 know each other, everything is here, to get to this 0:09:31.720 --> 0:09:34.960 place where and I remember my first day when we 0:09:35.000 --> 0:09:40.679 have to look for black people and you're like uh, 0:09:40.880 --> 0:09:44.600 and then when you see one, you go running it high, 0:09:44.600 --> 0:09:47.439 speaking only to find the person that we've seen that 0:09:47.520 --> 0:09:50.600 don't speak your language. And you realize that still after 0:09:50.600 --> 0:09:54.760 finding other don't speak your language, is so excited that actually, 0:09:55.480 --> 0:09:58.280 who but someone who looks like me. It was something 0:09:58.320 --> 0:10:01.679 that I never thought there could be something like that. 0:10:02.480 --> 0:10:06.400 What a strange thought. I mean, wow, that's such a 0:10:06.440 --> 0:10:10.120 strange thought. So how were you being received in those 0:10:10.160 --> 0:10:13.520 moments when you would rush over to another black person? 0:10:13.559 --> 0:10:16.120 Were they like whoa chill, what's wrong with you? Or 0:10:16.160 --> 0:10:20.880 were they like hey, So because they understood the situation, 0:10:21.480 --> 0:10:24.440 they embraced us, and because they used to stay in 0:10:24.520 --> 0:10:27.160 the student houses where they could cook, and they go, no, come, 0:10:27.200 --> 0:10:29.960 we're gonna cook. And and then we started knowing each other, 0:10:30.160 --> 0:10:32.560 and they understood the pain we're going through because they 0:10:32.600 --> 0:10:37.319 were post graduates and they were learning in there in English, 0:10:37.360 --> 0:10:40.480 and here we are, We're frustrated and crying and we're 0:10:40.520 --> 0:10:43.160 running linen in Afrikaans and we don't understand and it's 0:10:43.240 --> 0:10:48.360 just everything is overwhelming. So yeah, I kind of knew 0:10:48.360 --> 0:10:50.080 the answer to that, but I just wanted to hear 0:10:50.120 --> 0:10:52.880 you said the universal had not I think we all know. 0:10:53.480 --> 0:10:58.240 So how did you manage to speak Afrikaans? Not only 0:10:58.360 --> 0:11:02.360 learning the language, but how did you manage to learn 0:11:02.400 --> 0:11:06.199 about winemaking, which is really technical involves a lot of science. 0:11:06.800 --> 0:11:11.000 Even if Afrikaans was your first language, it would be tricky. 0:11:11.080 --> 0:11:13.880 But how did you manage to kind of simultaneously learn 0:11:13.880 --> 0:11:17.880 a new language and learn really, you know, complex science. 0:11:18.280 --> 0:11:21.160 We had to request tutors because it just it wasn't 0:11:21.200 --> 0:11:24.800 gonna work. We had to request tutors. And you're sit 0:11:24.880 --> 0:11:27.520 in class and listen and just too because there are 0:11:27.600 --> 0:11:30.920 words which are in Afrikaans but that sort of a 0:11:31.000 --> 0:11:35.280 borrowed from English, so you could actually follow in an 0:11:35.320 --> 0:11:38.360 English book to see where they are in class, and 0:11:38.400 --> 0:11:40.520 then you're gonna go to the to the tutor class 0:11:40.559 --> 0:11:45.880 after that, and then the tutor can explain things in English. Wow, 0:11:46.280 --> 0:11:49.720 it felt like basically someone is shoving something down your throat. 0:11:50.080 --> 0:11:53.280 I think a human sense that when something like that 0:11:53.360 --> 0:11:55.880 happens to block. So there was that part of me 0:11:56.080 --> 0:11:59.200 was that not just blocked that? And I've not not 0:11:59.320 --> 0:12:01.719 been interested in learning the language because I felt like 0:12:01.760 --> 0:12:03.920 you're not being forced to learn it in this than 0:12:03.960 --> 0:12:08.000 that because the native language is is a Zulu. Yes, yes, 0:12:08.080 --> 0:12:12.079 managing my language is Zulu. So you're speaking Zulu growing up? 0:12:12.120 --> 0:12:15.679 Did you have any exposure to English? That one is 0:12:15.720 --> 0:12:18.920 a very interesting one. I did, but our English was 0:12:19.000 --> 0:12:23.400 more like being taught in Zulu. Yeah, you know when 0:12:23.480 --> 0:12:26.560 you go to class and you'll be taught most of 0:12:26.640 --> 0:12:30.200 them had to be explained in Zulu. H So, coming 0:12:30.240 --> 0:12:33.760 to stell In Bush, my English was just yeah, so 0:12:34.080 --> 0:12:39.439 you're in this classroom. It takes three different languages basically 0:12:39.559 --> 0:12:41.960 for for you to learn about wine making, but we're 0:12:42.000 --> 0:12:45.480 making it happen. And was there some point in the 0:12:45.559 --> 0:12:49.280 class where, even though you were frustrated with the language barrier, 0:12:49.840 --> 0:12:53.599 did you have some kind of epiphany around the winemaking 0:12:53.720 --> 0:12:57.440 itself where you thought like, even though I hate this 0:12:57.600 --> 0:13:01.360 language barrier. I am actually interested in what's being taught. 0:13:01.840 --> 0:13:03.880 It wasn't really the class because what happened in my 0:13:03.960 --> 0:13:06.800 first year, I got a job at Tel Time Wine. 0:13:07.080 --> 0:13:09.439 So I was working at the tasting room, working at 0:13:09.440 --> 0:13:12.840 this in the celler with the whine maker, Philip Constantez. 0:13:12.960 --> 0:13:17.560 He's stealth deep Africans guy. Like the look and feel 0:13:17.600 --> 0:13:20.360 you can say, this guy is like, you know, deep 0:13:20.480 --> 0:13:25.240 cultural Africaans in in any way in the Loos, you 0:13:25.280 --> 0:13:32.160 know way. I realized that as human beings we're saw different. 0:13:32.559 --> 0:13:37.360 The love he had. Philip was struggling with English big time. 0:13:38.120 --> 0:13:41.600 I could see that sometimes he she could transfer the 0:13:41.679 --> 0:13:44.360 information to me that I could understand what's going on 0:13:44.520 --> 0:13:47.080 and all that. It was through him that I said 0:13:47.080 --> 0:13:49.960 to myself, I'm going to be a wine maker. And 0:13:50.040 --> 0:13:53.800 also his passion for wine making, that for me was 0:13:53.960 --> 0:13:56.319 one of the most amazing things. And I remember during harvest, 0:13:56.600 --> 0:14:00.079 the first tank of um, once it's done ferment in 0:14:00.640 --> 0:14:03.320 to enter the first tank of men. It was his, 0:14:04.600 --> 0:14:06.560 and he will say the first tank is his. The 0:14:06.559 --> 0:14:09.439 second one would be the whine makers, the assistant whine makers, 0:14:09.720 --> 0:14:13.000 the third would be the supervisor. And then we all follow. 0:14:13.880 --> 0:14:17.240 And that that's when I was like, I wanna be 0:14:17.520 --> 0:14:20.320 the whine maker for me. He inspired me because of 0:14:20.360 --> 0:14:25.320 his passion for while making, because of passion for humanity. Wow, 0:14:26.440 --> 0:14:29.480 do you guys have a relationship, Yes, we do. I 0:14:29.480 --> 0:14:32.800 had bought my grapes of Shadowy for twenty seventeen bottom 0:14:32.880 --> 0:14:35.400 from him. Wow, he must be super proud of you. 0:14:35.720 --> 0:14:38.200 Talk about super proud. I remember at some point I 0:14:38.280 --> 0:14:40.880 asked him, I said, Philips, tell me when you see me, 0:14:40.920 --> 0:14:43.880 what do you think? And it's like, you know what, 0:14:43.960 --> 0:14:46.840 and said, you don't understand when you see someone when 0:14:46.880 --> 0:14:51.080 you remember them as kids in your celler, and you 0:14:51.200 --> 0:14:54.240 remember what you went through with the person, and it's like, 0:14:55.040 --> 0:14:57.960 you make me proud. You just make me proud because 0:14:58.000 --> 0:15:00.520 I remember when I remember that December when I did 0:15:00.560 --> 0:15:05.040 my harvest that yeah, when I went back to school, 0:15:05.160 --> 0:15:08.640 he gave me a bottle of cab. He gave me tina, 0:15:09.120 --> 0:15:12.120 and then he gave me a specially at harvest and 0:15:12.640 --> 0:15:16.360 like so getting these wines, and I remember the cab 0:15:16.440 --> 0:15:19.480 he gave me was a cab that was not available 0:15:19.520 --> 0:15:21.720 to be sold anymore. So it was one of those 0:15:21.720 --> 0:15:24.800 special wines. And he gave me that, and I remember 0:15:24.840 --> 0:15:27.360 people in the saladical the wine maga gave her the 0:15:27.400 --> 0:15:30.680 wine and we are working in we don't just get wines. 0:15:30.720 --> 0:15:33.680 And I thought to myself, this was so special. I 0:15:33.680 --> 0:15:39.400 had to keep the wines. Wow. So you are working 0:15:39.440 --> 0:15:44.080 with Philip, you're enrolled in stelling Bosh, and after you 0:15:44.280 --> 0:15:49.720 completed your coursework there, did you stay at the same 0:15:49.800 --> 0:15:52.040 winery or did you move on to a different one. 0:15:52.840 --> 0:15:55.000 When I finished my studies, I moved to a different 0:15:55.040 --> 0:15:57.320 one because also Philip had left her hand by then. 0:15:57.320 --> 0:15:59.360 When I finished my studies. You know when you see 0:15:59.400 --> 0:16:03.560 somebody looks it too with a worry, it was contrad 0:16:03.640 --> 0:16:07.080 Flock was the wine maker after Philip. He looked and 0:16:07.080 --> 0:16:10.240 he said, I was watching battles at the back, and 0:16:10.280 --> 0:16:12.520 he certain city. You know, when you go out to 0:16:12.560 --> 0:16:16.480 the work in the industry, just be open and understand 0:16:16.520 --> 0:16:21.720 that not everybody cares and not everybody will basically have 0:16:21.840 --> 0:16:25.280 your interests. So just be aware of that. But like 0:16:25.720 --> 0:16:30.040 when he spoke, there was this concern of some sort 0:16:31.240 --> 0:16:35.200 and I could feel he was concerned. He was obviously 0:16:35.200 --> 0:16:39.360 because he knew the industry, you know, and he was 0:16:39.400 --> 0:16:42.080 concerned and worried, and he's giving me those them that 0:16:42.240 --> 0:16:44.880 like when you go out there, just don't be naive, 0:16:44.960 --> 0:16:47.680 be aware that these things are going to happen. Certain 0:16:47.720 --> 0:16:49.880 things are going to happen that's going to be blocking 0:16:49.920 --> 0:16:53.920 your way, you know. And and do you think that 0:16:53.960 --> 0:16:57.800 he was explicitly talking about the fact that you were 0:16:57.840 --> 0:17:01.240 a black woman. For sure, he had never seen or 0:17:01.240 --> 0:17:04.000 worked with the black woman. I mean, was he basically 0:17:04.040 --> 0:17:07.280 expressing concern? I think so he was concerned fact that 0:17:07.359 --> 0:17:09.520 I'm a woman and through that black and there isn't 0:17:09.520 --> 0:17:12.560 a lot of black people in the industry. I think 0:17:12.560 --> 0:17:16.600 his concern was more like to say, I hope you 0:17:16.720 --> 0:17:20.520 will persevere. So yeah, there was that concern for me. 0:17:20.680 --> 0:17:23.560 It was people like those him and Philip who made 0:17:23.560 --> 0:17:25.920 me say, you know what, Yes, I'm going to meet 0:17:25.960 --> 0:17:28.280 people who working with BED in the industry, but guess what, 0:17:28.840 --> 0:17:32.280 I'm gonna keep on listening to those voices that I 0:17:32.320 --> 0:17:35.359 heard at the beginning who were saying walk the path. 0:17:36.359 --> 0:17:41.080 M For people who don't really understand the makeup of 0:17:41.160 --> 0:17:45.960 South Africa's wine industry, obviously you are an anomaly. When 0:17:45.960 --> 0:17:49.040 you look at the wine industry itself is a percent 0:17:49.080 --> 0:17:52.439 of the population in South Africa's black. And when you 0:17:52.480 --> 0:17:54.800 come to the wine industry and you look at the 0:17:54.840 --> 0:17:59.520 management level and all that that's proud about what what 0:17:59.720 --> 0:18:05.720 that's maybe looking at the people of color? There isn't 0:18:05.800 --> 0:18:09.160 many people of color in the industry. M So who's 0:18:09.200 --> 0:18:13.040 actually working the harvest? And yeah, that's what I'm saying, 0:18:13.200 --> 0:18:16.160 You're not going to find an management level. You find 0:18:16.160 --> 0:18:19.720 the majority of the people working in the unions, they're 0:18:19.840 --> 0:18:23.840 doing labor. Now to commit a level of management as 0:18:23.880 --> 0:18:32.720 a blood person, a person of color, that who you Yes, yeah, 0:18:32.800 --> 0:18:37.040 I'm familiar with that. So I mean you did you 0:18:37.119 --> 0:18:40.120 feel like because on the one hand, obviously you had 0:18:40.160 --> 0:18:44.720 never been in a situation where you were interacting with 0:18:44.840 --> 0:18:47.440 so many white people and of course I'm sure they 0:18:47.440 --> 0:18:51.000 were thinking the same about you. Did you feel more 0:18:51.119 --> 0:18:56.240 or less prepared for those encounters because you weren't intimidating 0:18:56.320 --> 0:18:59.320 or had nothing compared to or was it more scary 0:18:59.400 --> 0:19:02.679 because you know, you have never been in those positions before. 0:19:02.880 --> 0:19:04.720 When I put out of the university, the actual our 0:19:04.760 --> 0:19:09.600 scared of the industry because the university, the students will say, 0:19:10.000 --> 0:19:11.800 what are you doing in the Africans university? If you 0:19:11.800 --> 0:19:14.240 don't understand Africans. What are you doing here? Why didn't 0:19:14.240 --> 0:19:18.840 you stay where you were? And you're thinking, you know 0:19:19.119 --> 0:19:25.639 all the time, and to get to to the work 0:19:26.119 --> 0:19:30.240 environment with that in your mind to say, I'm being 0:19:30.320 --> 0:19:33.959 constantly asked what am I doing here? So when I 0:19:34.000 --> 0:19:38.280 get to the work area, which I am sure it's 0:19:38.400 --> 0:19:43.640 even scarier, I'm expecting the worst. And then you get 0:19:43.640 --> 0:19:46.399 to the work environment and you don't see the worst. 0:19:47.720 --> 0:19:50.160 And then I said to myself, Okay, so adults can 0:19:50.359 --> 0:19:53.280 hide stuff and not say They can say it in 0:19:53.280 --> 0:19:56.080 their hearts, but they're not gonna say it of yourseln. 0:19:57.240 --> 0:20:01.560 But also I think I was lucky in I feel 0:20:01.640 --> 0:20:04.280 like one of the most placed people I know of. 0:20:22.320 --> 0:20:25.600 Welcome back to point of origin. So let's talk about 0:20:25.800 --> 0:20:28.399 um Stella Kaiah, because that's where I met you. You 0:20:28.440 --> 0:20:31.679 were working there in two thousand and eight, and I 0:20:31.720 --> 0:20:34.639 believe this is true. But I always say this is 0:20:34.640 --> 0:20:38.160 true that you're the first black woman in South Africa 0:20:38.320 --> 0:20:43.520 to be a head winemaker. Is that right? And that 0:20:43.640 --> 0:20:48.160 became official at Stella Kia? Was that your first official 0:20:48.960 --> 0:20:52.840 wine making position? It's when the truth and the realities 0:20:52.920 --> 0:20:59.320 of growth seriously started yeah, no question. Did you feel 0:21:00.400 --> 0:21:05.320 a kind of responsibility as the first black woman in 0:21:05.359 --> 0:21:09.960 South Africa to be a winemaker? I did feel it 0:21:10.040 --> 0:21:12.120 off a lot of pressure on that. That's when at 0:21:12.119 --> 0:21:13.959 some point I had to go to my boss's office 0:21:14.400 --> 0:21:16.720 and I sat down. I literally know when you're walking 0:21:16.960 --> 0:21:18.560 and not get the doing to sit down on the 0:21:18.560 --> 0:21:21.800 floor next to the door. And I'm like, I can't 0:21:21.880 --> 0:21:25.040 do this, and it goes what And I was like, 0:21:25.720 --> 0:21:27.920 I can't this thing of being a role model, this 0:21:28.080 --> 0:21:30.720 thing of things. I just I just wanted to make 0:21:30.760 --> 0:21:36.000 one and just live my life. And then set me 0:21:36.040 --> 0:21:39.479 down and they said, okay, being a role model, understand this. 0:21:40.960 --> 0:21:43.480 It doesn't mean you need to change your life being 0:21:43.480 --> 0:21:47.240 a round model me to live your best life. And 0:21:47.280 --> 0:21:50.080 then so he explained to me that I also can't 0:21:50.080 --> 0:21:51.960 do this thing of generals. Can they just leave me 0:21:52.000 --> 0:21:54.320 alone and do what I do my own thing? And 0:21:54.400 --> 0:21:57.800 it goes yeah, they can't leave you alone. But the 0:21:57.840 --> 0:22:00.679 other thing is how are other people going to know 0:22:00.880 --> 0:22:03.480 that they are people like you? How are other people 0:22:03.520 --> 0:22:12.399 can get inspired? And that was that can get inspired? Uh, no, 0:22:15.280 --> 0:22:19.120 you're the only one that is. That's really cool. That 0:22:19.240 --> 0:22:24.040 um that Dave and Philippe and Conrad. You know, these 0:22:24.520 --> 0:22:27.600 white men who have had long standing in the industry, 0:22:27.960 --> 0:22:31.040 they really, you know, spent time with you and invested 0:22:31.080 --> 0:22:34.920 in your education. And it sounds like, especially with with Dave, 0:22:35.040 --> 0:22:38.720 just like your emotional well being um as well, which 0:22:38.800 --> 0:22:43.720 is like extremely important given you your position at the time. 0:22:44.200 --> 0:22:47.800 So I remember very distinctly once you came to New 0:22:47.880 --> 0:22:50.639 York and this was in two thousand and ten, and 0:22:50.720 --> 0:22:55.159 you gave a beautiful speech at an event that we hosted, 0:22:55.920 --> 0:22:58.919 and I remember in the middle of that speech you said, 0:22:59.720 --> 0:23:02.239 one day, I want to be the captain of my 0:23:02.320 --> 0:23:07.040 own ship. And it really stuck with me because, you know, 0:23:07.480 --> 0:23:11.320 I obviously wanted that for you. I wanted that for myself, 0:23:11.359 --> 0:23:15.879 you know, but as the first black woman in South 0:23:15.920 --> 0:23:21.760 Africa to be making wine, that actually wasn't your your dream. 0:23:21.840 --> 0:23:25.440 Your dream was to make wine for your own winery. 0:23:25.840 --> 0:23:30.720 And we now fast forward nine years later and I'm 0:23:30.760 --> 0:23:33.680 talking to you and you're the captain of your own ship. 0:23:34.960 --> 0:23:39.199 So congratulations, thank you very much, and thank you for 0:23:39.400 --> 0:23:43.439 reminding me of those words. Yes, I think as human beings, 0:23:43.440 --> 0:23:46.480 we all strive to be the captains of our own 0:23:46.480 --> 0:23:52.400 ship because it drives us to our purpose. That wasn't 0:23:52.440 --> 0:23:56.280 twenty eleven way where I said to Dave, I want 0:23:56.280 --> 0:23:59.160 to start my own company and then he said, oh yeah, sure, 0:24:00.119 --> 0:24:02.520 let me know if need happen. And then there was 0:24:02.600 --> 0:24:05.399 this thing about with Naked Wine where I made on 0:24:05.400 --> 0:24:09.480 one wine for them, and then I met Mika Wilmash 0:24:09.800 --> 0:24:13.639 who spoke to me about doing a collaboration wine and 0:24:14.400 --> 0:24:19.840 basically that's how everything started. MHM came twenty twelve, we 0:24:19.880 --> 0:24:22.120 made a color of wine with Helen kept Linger from 0:24:22.119 --> 0:24:26.600 MAPPA which was branded with other names and it was 0:24:26.640 --> 0:24:29.520 sold in New York. And then twenty thirteen with the 0:24:29.760 --> 0:24:34.760 second collaboration, and I think the proceeds from that is 0:24:34.800 --> 0:24:37.600 what helped me to actually kick start and and start 0:24:37.640 --> 0:24:40.920 as Lena. When I look at all those years, things 0:24:40.920 --> 0:24:44.520 that were following just falling into place to lead to this. 0:24:45.160 --> 0:24:47.800 And in twenty fifteen, I was recruited to be to 0:24:47.960 --> 0:24:53.600 go to to the US for an African women hyprenticeship program, 0:24:53.640 --> 0:24:56.439 and I remember when I got to the US and 0:24:56.480 --> 0:24:59.040 listening to the women from all over Africa who were 0:24:59.080 --> 0:25:04.640 running businesses, multimillion dollar businesses, and I was like, it's 0:25:04.640 --> 0:25:06.080 like you get to a pleasent and say how did 0:25:06.080 --> 0:25:09.280 I get here? Again? Because I don't belong to this group. 0:25:11.560 --> 0:25:14.080 Therese are people who are running businesses and I'm not 0:25:14.240 --> 0:25:19.639 yet running. I'm slightly but not in you know, and 0:25:19.680 --> 0:25:22.880