Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Ethan Nadelman, and this is Psychoactive, a production
Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio and Protozoa Pictures. Psychoactive is the
Speaker 1: show where we talk about all things drugs. But any
Speaker 1: views expressed here do not represent those of I Heart Media,
Speaker 1: Protozoa Pictures, or their executives and employees. Indeed, heed as
Speaker 1: an inveterate contrarian, I can tell you they may not
Speaker 1: even represent my own and nothing contained in this show
Speaker 1: should be used as medical advice or encouragement to use
Speaker 1: any type of drug. One of the most popular episodes
Speaker 1: the Psychoactive to date has been the one where I
Speaker 1: invited my friend Julie Holland to service my co host
Speaker 1: and answer questions with me from you the audience. So
Speaker 1: we're going to record another one of those episodes, and
Speaker 1: we need your questions. Leave us a voicemail with a
Speaker 1: question as detailed us Bob Stable at one eight three
Speaker 1: three seven seven nine sixty, or you can record a
Speaker 1: voice memo and send it to Psychoactive at protozoa dot com.
Speaker 1: I'm sure it's going to be a great second go
Speaker 1: with this. Hello, Psychoactive listeners. Today's guest is somebody who's
Speaker 1: actually pretty famous, not just in a small world, but
Speaker 1: becoming increasingly so. His name is Paul Stammits, and he
Speaker 1: is really the guru, the maestro of mushrooms, and not
Speaker 1: just psilocybin psychedelic mushrooms, but mushrooms written large. I mean,
Speaker 1: he's an all Three's in a lot of books about
Speaker 1: growing mushrooms, about how mushrooms can help save the world.
Speaker 1: He's a researcher, he's an inventor. He holds a lot
Speaker 1: of patents and has a lot more, you know, currently
Speaker 1: under consideration. Michael Pollen in his book Changing Your Mind,
Speaker 1: you know, compares Paul to some of the great amateur
Speaker 1: naturalists like Darwin, and he's somebody that I've known a
Speaker 1: little bit over the year. So, Paul, thank you so
Speaker 1: much for taking the time to come on Psychoactive with me. Well,
Speaker 1: pleasure to be here. Thank you so much. Brother. Yeah, well, listen,
Speaker 1: I remember the first times you and I crossed paths
Speaker 1: must have been late nineties, early two thousands, and it
Speaker 1: was that at that annual mushroom conference until your ride
Speaker 1: and I just remember blowing being blown away because you
Speaker 1: gave these three speeches, one on mushrooms and the environment,
Speaker 1: one on mushrooms and medicine, and one on mushrooms and
Speaker 1: the mind, and each one was more extraordinary than the other.
Speaker 1: But let me back up here and just ask the
Speaker 1: first question, how did it come about? How did you
Speaker 1: and mushrooms get married in this way? Obviously many many
Speaker 1: decades ago? What's the story one of my older brother John,
Speaker 1: he was the eldest brother, and he went to Yale
Speaker 1: and uh doing one of his vacations, he went down
Speaker 1: to Mexico and Colombia and collected philosophy cubensus, which is
Speaker 1: the most common and popular even today. Paul side mushroom
Speaker 1: growing on cow patties in the subtropics circumpolar all over
Speaker 1: the world, in the subtropics, by the way, And he
Speaker 1: came back to these amazing stories of tripping on paulocybin.
Speaker 1: And I was just fourteen years of age or so,
Speaker 1: you know. I was fascinated because I adored my older
Speaker 1: brother and he had these crazy adventures also very secretly
Speaker 1: told to me out of the ear shot or ear
Speaker 1: range of my parents. And it was just such an exciting,
Speaker 1: you know, adventure stories he had. And little did I
Speaker 1: know how powerful that these mushrooms would really become in
Speaker 1: my life. Now, mushrooms had become the zeitgeist of our time.
Speaker 1: It says sort of worldwide revolutions coming up from the underground,
Speaker 1: and it's unifying across cultures and continents. Yeah. I remember
Speaker 1: reading that that you had grown up in a sort
Speaker 1: of traditional Christian or maybe evangelical background. I mean, was
Speaker 1: that something you rebelled against before you even got into
Speaker 1: this mushroom thing, or were the ways in which you
Speaker 1: were influenced by that in ways you think may have
Speaker 1: shaped you're thinking, either reactively or synergistically. Well, thank you
Speaker 1: for that question. No one's really asked me that. In
Speaker 1: the same way, I was actually kind of turned on
Speaker 1: with the aspect of older states of consciousness. And so
Speaker 1: when I see these charismatic Christians go into these trances
Speaker 1: and speaking in tongues and doing this frankly weird asked stuff,
Speaker 1: I took a more of an academic point of view.
Speaker 1: I thought, well, this is they're actually altering their consciousness,
Speaker 1: just like with psil cybin. But that sort of flight, uh,
Speaker 1: into an older states of consciousness was really interesting to me.
Speaker 1: You're just a year or two older than me, but
Speaker 1: I think we also both kind of came of age.
Speaker 1: You know, there are twenties in the in the mid
Speaker 1: to late seventies, which was, you know, a kind of
Speaker 1: brief period of live and let live between the kind
Speaker 1: of Nixon versus political radicalism of the sixties and early
Speaker 1: seventies and then the Reagan generation and you know, and
Speaker 1: prepping for this interview, I read some things that I
Speaker 1: didn't know, which is, you know when you go to
Speaker 1: Evergreen State College, is that you know and and that
Speaker 1: you start organizing these conferences about mushrooms and such and
Speaker 1: inviting this remarkable group of people. I mean, you're only
Speaker 1: what twenty around that time, right, and you're bringing in
Speaker 1: a kind of who's who some of the leading figures
Speaker 1: what in both my college and psychedelics. Yeah, it was,
Speaker 1: like I mentioned, I was a logger hippie for about
Speaker 1: three years, and then three guys in my crew got
Speaker 1: killed and I decided to go back to college, or
Speaker 1: go to college. I went to Kenyon College for a year,
Speaker 1: and then I took off into the woods for a
Speaker 1: period of time, and but I was writing my first book. Um,
Speaker 1: so I lost to be much of them, our allies.
Speaker 1: I started it when I was eighteen nineteen years of age,
Speaker 1: and I spent a huge amount of time at the
Speaker 1: University of Washington Library in the basement the Science library,
Speaker 1: looking up the works of shalts And and Wasson and
Speaker 1: other great you know researchers. Most of the books, as
Speaker 1: you probably remember, we're razored out. You go to the library,
Speaker 1: you check out a book on psycho had a chapter
Speaker 1: on psychedelics. The whole chapter has been razored out. When
Speaker 1: I was knowing my research, you know, coming down the
Speaker 1: University of Washington, there are new rous species in the
Speaker 1: Northwest that have been reported, uh growing naturally in the fields,
Speaker 1: like liberty caps Silosopy Simon lazziata, and wood chips Alosto
Speaker 1: be sin Essen's Bay assistant center fair blossa. These are
Speaker 1: all species names of mushrooms grown wood chips, and so
Speaker 1: I started. Then I joined the taxonomic group that which
Speaker 1: is called the Pacific Northwest Key Council, which we wrote
Speaker 1: Taxonomic keys, binary decision trees, identifying species by characteristics whether
Speaker 1: they have you know, brown spores or white spores, etcetera, etcetera.
Speaker 1: You go down this sentry and so we I wrote.
Speaker 1: I focused on this selcybin mushroom family h it's called
Speaker 1: the Storferia. It's a family of Hyphenleomma or knee Metaloma, Stroferia,
Speaker 1: and Philosopy. These are satellite genera within the family. I
Speaker 1: say that because Storferia cubensis earl was first discovered in Cuba,
Speaker 1: it was called a stor Feria, and then it got
Speaker 1: moved over to the ginas Pelosopy where it is now.
Speaker 1: So in the course of my research, realizing that these
Speaker 1: mushrooms grow grew in the Pacific Northwest, but the my
Speaker 1: collegists there were largely unaware. Dr Daniel Stunts in the
Speaker 1: University of Washington, a great mycologist, told me, rarely ever
Speaker 1: saw these until the hippie showed up. And the hippies
Speaker 1: basically as wood chips landscaping around buildings. And when the
Speaker 1: wood ship landscaping industry, you know, was born out of
Speaker 1: the logging industry, that they had all these chips and
Speaker 1: they use them for landscaping and mulching. Then the psilocybin
Speaker 1: ushoms are showing up around campuses, so appropriate that these
Speaker 1: young eager minds will be walking the campus and having
Speaker 1: sulcide mushrooms coming up by the thousands, you know, right
Speaker 1: right beside their walkaway. So I think that really spurred,
Speaker 1: you know, and I think the argument can be made
Speaker 1: it spurred the invention of the computer internet generation. You know,
Speaker 1: so many of the psychokouts of the seventies went on
Speaker 1: to give create some of the biggest internet based companies
Speaker 1: that we know all today. It's a great photograph of
Speaker 1: the founders of Microsoft. I encourage everyone to look it up.
Speaker 1: Bill Gates is only the straight looking dude in that photograph.
Speaker 1: Every one of them are long hairs, right. So, but
Speaker 1: you're almost describe when you talk about these students showing up.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's almost like you're describing this relationship between
Speaker 1: mushrooms and humans, almost like between dogs and humans. Right
Speaker 1: that that there was something about about, you know, the
Speaker 1: way like dogs. I guess that survived. They say is
Speaker 1: because they developed a special relationship with humans in a
Speaker 1: way that many other wild creatures did not. And it
Speaker 1: sounds like this an element of mushrooms. I mean, they
Speaker 1: were going to be there before after during us no matter,
Speaker 1: no matter us no. But they very good point that
Speaker 1: there there there's a success for survival has been amplified
Speaker 1: but by by hitchhiking and engaging humans. It goes back
Speaker 1: to Michael Paulin's book, one of his books, The Botany
Speaker 1: of desire Um. But yeah, it's very interesting. The paulocybin mushrooms,
Speaker 1: which massively expand consciousness, are co occurring on a time
Speaker 1: critical and the evolution of humans as they're having a
Speaker 1: negative impact on the ecosystem that's given humans and other
Speaker 1: organisms health and birth. So I do think there is
Speaker 1: an element there of causality. And moreover, you know, you
Speaker 1: can say this is deterministic or coincidental. In the long run,
Speaker 1: it doesn't matter. The net effect is people who do
Speaker 1: psyched alex are more pro environmental after the experience, They're
Speaker 1: less prone to violence, they have a better sense of community,
Speaker 1: of forgiveness. Psilocybin makes kinder, more responsible, more law abiding people.
Speaker 1: And well, just to be clear and just to simplify,
Speaker 1: a lot of this is for me in the audience.
Speaker 1: I mean, is there a clear distinction between the the psychoactive,
Speaker 1: the psilocybic mushrooms and the non psychoactive or is it
Speaker 1: kind of a line spectrum of psychoactivity. That's a really
Speaker 1: good and complicated question that I don't have a release
Speaker 1: straightforward to answer, but I can give some partial answers.
Speaker 1: Every mushroom species is a unique pharmaceutical factory as a
Speaker 1: composite of literally thousands, in some cases hundreds of unique
Speaker 1: molecules not found elsewhere. Think about each one of them
Speaker 1: is a pharmaceutical factory as a whole slew of compounds
Speaker 1: beneficial to human health, negative to human health. Some of
Speaker 1: the compounds that are negative to human health can be
Speaker 1: beneficial to ecological health. So you know, we have a
Speaker 1: very biopic, human centric view of what is good and
Speaker 1: what is bad. There is also plocybin analogs which are
Speaker 1: totally legal, and that's what a big part of our
Speaker 1: research is on is they are called the pulocybin analogs.
Speaker 1: There's nor silason, nor baiosystem and biosystem. These are legal
Speaker 1: trip to means that are also are being co produced
Speaker 1: inside the natural form of pulocybin mushrooms that also have
Speaker 1: a thousand year plussed history of use. They're fully legal,
Speaker 1: and so that's an area that we also have found
Speaker 1: extraordinary activity and increasing neurogeneration. So Paul, you know, reading
Speaker 1: that chapter about you and Michael Pollen's book, and he
Speaker 1: describes you as an autodidact, and you can sort of
Speaker 1: feel this combination of his skeptic schism and then you
Speaker 1: overcoming his skepticism, and you know him describing you as
Speaker 1: this sort of great amateur naturalist in the tradition of
Speaker 1: Darwin or and others. Uh. In what ways do you
Speaker 1: think that has been more of an advantage or disadvantage
Speaker 1: for your during your journey? Well, let's get to the
Speaker 1: deep psychology um of course. And it's a chip on
Speaker 1: my shoulder because my profession is mycology. I am a
Speaker 1: professional mycologist. My income is from mycology. I will have
Speaker 1: soon four papers published in Nature. It's the most prestigious,
Speaker 1: if not the one, or if not the most prestigious
Speaker 1: journals either in journal in the world. For people to
Speaker 1: describe me as an amateur, I mean, do you have
Speaker 1: to have a PhD in order to be a professional.
Speaker 1: I think the nuance of language here begins to fall apart,
Speaker 1: and it's it's used oftentimes, it's weaponized to cut me down. Hey,
Speaker 1: I'm a warrior. I can take it. But I have
Speaker 1: to release this challenge people. If my profession is my
Speaker 1: cology I published in professional scientific journals. What part of
Speaker 1: my work is not professional? When I waxed poetic about
Speaker 1: the evolution of of the computer, Internet and in dark matter,
Speaker 1: Sure that's speculative, but it's amazing that people want to
Speaker 1: put you in a box to put you down, rather
Speaker 1: than saying that these words don't really apply in the
Speaker 1: conventional sense that you're using them. So imagine that place
Speaker 1: less of a roll now. I mean, if you had
Speaker 1: landed up getting a PhD along the way, it might
Speaker 1: have helped you get the message out there in your
Speaker 1: earlier years, but probably is irrelevant. Now listen, I'll tell
Speaker 1: you something. I am so glad that I've been an outlier.
Speaker 1: I'm so glad I met with John dore And and
Speaker 1: his financial group, with Bill Gates, with Jeff Bezos. I
Speaker 1: was too freaking weird for them. I was too out there.
Speaker 1: I am so glad. I am so glad I was
Speaker 1: not a person that they wanted to invest in because
Speaker 1: I was too far out there. As a result, I'm
Speaker 1: totally independent. I would tell anyone out there who are
Speaker 1: sensitive to criticism, thank your critics, because they would just
Speaker 1: make you stronger. Well, for young people, I mean when
Speaker 1: when young people wanted to get in his field, you
Speaker 1: encourage them to get a PhD. And you know, the
Speaker 1: study of but my college year may see helmet definitely
Speaker 1: make much of a difference one way or the other. Well,
Speaker 1: I mean Bill Gates dropped out of Harvard, uh, you know,
Speaker 1: and started started Microsoft. I mean there's many, many examples
Speaker 1: of people who have done that. Hey, the academic institutions
Speaker 1: have resources, folks at bottom line, So yes, go through
Speaker 1: a university, to go to a college, go to the
Speaker 1: academic institutions who have the resources to be able to
Speaker 1: help you. Now, in the days of Internet, and especially
Speaker 1: in the days of COVID, you know, we have the
Speaker 1: world encyclopedias at our fingertips. So if you're concerned about
Speaker 1: tenure and getting a job at a university and fitting
Speaker 1: into that box, then yeah, the credentials are are very
Speaker 1: helpful and indeed necessary because you'll be out competed with
Speaker 1: somebody who's more credential than yourself. You aren't credentials. But
Speaker 1: are these labels really necessary? I mean, if if the
Speaker 1: labels are gonna prevent you from your innovation, then I
Speaker 1: think you have another problem that should be addressed. But
Speaker 1: I would say follow the traditional path as far as
Speaker 1: it you can make use of it for your own
Speaker 1: personal advancement and benefit. But strategically, at some point you
Speaker 1: might want to chart your own course. We'll be talking
Speaker 1: more after we hear this add Well, I see you
Speaker 1: at this pivotal intersection right between the broader field of mycology,
Speaker 1: which has a lot about mushrooms that has nothing to
Speaker 1: do with psychedelics, and then you're a fundamental figure in
Speaker 1: the broader psychedelics area because the psilocybin mushrooms. But are
Speaker 1: there many prominent figures in the study of mycology who
Speaker 1: either don't try or just not interested in the psychoactive
Speaker 1: elements of mushrooms. That was the vast majority. I remember
Speaker 1: going to my first North American Mycological Association for a
Speaker 1: nineteen I think seventy four seventy five. I had long
Speaker 1: hair and long beard, and I was treated like a leper.
Speaker 1: When I'd walk into a crowd, people would just walk
Speaker 1: and keep a distance from me because they when they
Speaker 1: want to be associated with me, because I was obviously
Speaker 1: interested in paulocybin mushrooms. Thankfully, Daniel Stunts, the professor at
Speaker 1: the University of Washington to me under his wing. And
Speaker 1: then I met Alexander Smith, who was thought to be
Speaker 1: the father of American mycology by many experts, and they
Speaker 1: both said, Okay, this this guy's got a sparkle in
Speaker 1: his eye. He's really really interested in the subject. And
Speaker 1: so I captured their attention and got their support. So
Speaker 1: I'm very thankful for that. But by the field of mycology,
Speaker 1: if you were associated with paulocybin mushrooms, you were excommunicated
Speaker 1: from not only the inner circle, but the medium circle.
Speaker 1: It is only on the outer periphery. But to this
Speaker 1: I imagine is evolved quite substantially. I mean, are there
Speaker 1: still in the field study of mycology significant figures. He
Speaker 1: showed no interest or hostility towards the psychoactive elements of
Speaker 1: their field. You know, I've had a big influence because
Speaker 1: of my Ted talk and you know the movie Fantastic Fungi.
Speaker 1: You know, I've been on you know, I've been on
Speaker 1: stage a lot of medical conferences, as you know, most
Speaker 1: of the time the medical conference, as I've been talking
Speaker 1: about medicinal mushrooms, not paul cybin. But even at my
Speaker 1: Ted talks on a six million views or something. They
Speaker 1: warned me not to talk about sulcibe mushrooms. So my
Speaker 1: talk six six ways mushroom can help say of the world,
Speaker 1: there's no mention of my subject that I really wanted
Speaker 1: to talk about, right right, I mean it. This seem
Speaker 1: like the f d A is getting more open, for example,
Speaker 1: on the research on psilocybin mushrooms. So do you have
Speaker 1: patents going in that area, because you know, a lot
Speaker 1: of a lot of the criticism running the patents in
Speaker 1: this area has been of companies seeking patents for things
Speaker 1: which has already common knowledge, as opposed to really making
Speaker 1: a major new contribution. Yeah, I have about ten patents
Speaker 1: PI entering through the patent office. I discovered that if
Speaker 1: you had niacin two psilocybin and it would enhance activity. Now,
Speaker 1: let let's roll back the clock on this and either
Speaker 1: you probably remember this in the seventies, it was widely
Speaker 1: thought that if you had a bad dose in LSD
Speaker 1: or saulcybin, you take a high dose of niacin and
Speaker 1: you bring you down. In fact, I've recorded maybe ten
Speaker 1: in conferences when I asked people raise their hand. The
Speaker 1: senior psychonauts knew about this, and every conference several dozen
Speaker 1: people raise their hand to I filmed this because its
Speaker 1: contrary to conventional wisdom. Ironically, Johns Hopkins and many of
Speaker 1: these other clinical studies they choose nyasin as the act
Speaker 1: of pacebo because in about twelve to twenty minutes you
Speaker 1: start getting hot flushes. So an act of pacebo means
Speaker 1: well the expectancy of the patient they'll feel something. So
Speaker 1: this is as opposed to be a neutral pacebo versus
Speaker 1: saul cibin, where you feel is something in in you know,
Speaker 1: twelve to twenty minutes, you have lift off. So if
Speaker 1: it's that time parameter of an act of pacebo, ironically
Speaker 1: they got out exactly wrong. I proposed this and came
Speaker 1: up within two thousand and fifteen. I presented at the
Speaker 1: MAPS conference where I think you spoke at San Francisco
Speaker 1: two thousand and sixteen, and I proposed that combining niacin,
Speaker 1: pul cibin, mushrooms, and Lion's name would have a synergistic
Speaker 1: effect that is way beyond the compounded effect of the
Speaker 1: three components. Now, I added niacin as an adversive for
Speaker 1: micro dosing, and the idea is if you've got, you know,
Speaker 1: one gram of slow speak ebensus at one one is
Speaker 1: about ten milligrams and sulcabin so you have lift off
Speaker 1: with about one gram. A tenth of a gram is
Speaker 1: substance aium. That's the definition of a micro doce. You
Speaker 1: cannot feel it. So the common micro docing protocols are
Speaker 1: about tenth of a gram of slaw speak ebensus. You
Speaker 1: feel no effect. And then I thought, well, if you're
Speaker 1: gona do micro dosing over the counter and you had
Speaker 1: a bottle of a hundred pills, wow, there's a lot
Speaker 1: of trips there are people would just take ten capsules.
Speaker 1: So by adding niacin it would be like an adversive
Speaker 1: like ant abuse for alcoholics. And because we take niasin
Speaker 1: for those you haven't done it. Go out and this
Speaker 1: is perfectly safe. Take a hundred milligrams of nias and
Speaker 1: nicotinic acid the flushing form by the way, and you'll
Speaker 1: start itching, you'll get red, you'll your I started itching
Speaker 1: weirdly in the bottom of my feet, in the back
Speaker 1: of my neck, and you get beat red, and it's
Speaker 1: very very unpleasant experience. You won't want to take that
Speaker 1: much again. So I thought, well, by adding nice, and
Speaker 1: it would be an adversive that I'll prevent abuse and
Speaker 1: because as a vaso dilator, that's why it works. And
Speaker 1: I thought, also you can excite the endpoints of the
Speaker 1: periful nervous system, because that's where it happens when you
Speaker 1: start itching, your end points of your nerves are excited
Speaker 1: and their sense of So I thought vaso dilation adversive.
Speaker 1: Exciting the endpoints of the periful nervous system. This could
Speaker 1: make the beneficial effects of Saul Sabin and Lion's main
Speaker 1: mushroom get to the end points of the perfil nervousm
Speaker 1: because perifel neuropathy oftentimes presents itself to the deadening of
Speaker 1: the fingertips and toes. So that was my whole idea.
Speaker 1: This is a novel idea, of folks. There's no prior
Speaker 1: art on this. This this is a true test of
Speaker 1: patent ability and why it should be and it will
Speaker 1: be awarded as a pattern. I came up with a
Speaker 1: novel idea. I saw the mention this right because you
Speaker 1: were just co author of a paper in Nature right
Speaker 1: about microdocing, and I wonder if you could just explain,
Speaker 1: you know, what you found there, because I think it
Speaker 1: was the biggest study so far of microdocing, right. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm really really proud of our team. You know, it's
Speaker 1: been a team effort and we co design an app
Speaker 1: that's available on iOS Apple devices, soon to be available
Speaker 1: on droids. It's that micronose dot me has gone through
Speaker 1: the ethics review boards at University of British Columbia. All
Speaker 1: your data is protected, it's anonymized. We found the cellular
Speaker 1: mechanism that we believe translates into the psychomotor demonstration that
Speaker 1: micro dosing with a stack of nias and online's made
Speaker 1: as a dramatic effect on neurological performance. I mean, this
Speaker 1: whole thing is like, it's a beautiful, beautiful discovery. I'm
Speaker 1: just so honored to be the shepherd of this of
Speaker 1: this knowledge because I think it will be a paradigm
Speaker 1: break root medicine and other researchers can walk through this
Speaker 1: door and it just shows a combination of a natural
Speaker 1: product and a pure In this case, we're using pure silicon.
Speaker 1: We can legally get sulsan one milligram without a d
Speaker 1: A license, and so silicon is the other ingredient in
Speaker 1: psilocybin mushrooms at silocybin and soulicin both co occur and
Speaker 1: pulocybin mushrooms. Sulcybin is a pro drug the silicon and
Speaker 1: de posterolates and silicon crosses the blood brain barrier. Psilocybin
Speaker 1: does not. But we got for this first paper we
Speaker 1: published in November eight we had over eight thousand people.
Speaker 1: And what's amazing about this easan is that we recruited
Speaker 1: this group on micro dose dot me, so we had
Speaker 1: a really good balanced data set to compare. Now this
Speaker 1: is open, open label. You know, people are getting sulcibe
Speaker 1: mushrooms illegally on the black market variability and dose variability
Speaker 1: and potency. So the key outcome though you found in
Speaker 1: this first paper was that micro docing looks to be
Speaker 1: associated with lower levels of anxiety and depression. Was that
Speaker 1: the key finding. That's the key finding, but a legitimate
Speaker 1: argument is that could be association people who are the
Speaker 1: motivations which we get into why are people micro docing
Speaker 1: their micro docing to resolve their depression. They're they're micro
Speaker 1: doocing to be more creative, to be more present. That
Speaker 1: was an interesting metric as well. So the motivations and
Speaker 1: the democraphics was the first paper. It was not a
Speaker 1: cause and effect paper, so we never even said anything
Speaker 1: about that. Some people jumped into conclusions that it was.
Speaker 1: But our second paper, we submitted a day after our
Speaker 1: first paper was accepted. That paper found something that's totally
Speaker 1: bizarrely interesting, that is crazy and its implications. And basically
Speaker 1: it says micro dosing is again associated because not at
Speaker 1: the CBO double wine controlled study is associated with reduction
Speaker 1: and depression, significant reduction and depression, an increase in psycho
Speaker 1: motor response. Okay, what is a psychomotor response? See depression subjective?
Speaker 1: And I like to say, and I think it's legit
Speaker 1: if you're micro dosing for depression and you're best friends
Speaker 1: of micro docing for depression and their friends are micro
Speaker 1: dosing for depression, I'm micro dosing, you're micro docing, we're
Speaker 1: all micro docing together. We're in a community. Expectancy, right,
Speaker 1: that comes into play. But what Dr Pam and I
Speaker 1: focused in on is what is something that's not subjective?
Speaker 1: What is something that is outside of subjectivity that cannot
Speaker 1: be related to expectancy effect or if you want to
Speaker 1: use word of placebo. And as I mentioned forty percent
Speaker 1: of the individuals. The second papers twelve thousand people, and
Speaker 1: it turns out there's something called the tap test. This
Speaker 1: is an alternating finger tests. Many of you have had this,
Speaker 1: or you know of your friends who are family who
Speaker 1: have Alzheimer's, Parkinson's. The traumatic brain injury is how quickly
Speaker 1: can tap your fingers alternating ly in ten seconds? But
Speaker 1: this is a validated tests for parkinson Alzheimer's cognitive decline.
Speaker 1: And note to self, we're all getting older, we all
Speaker 1: have cognitive decline, we all lose psychomotor skills. So in
Speaker 1: our second paper, as it turns out, with a stack
Speaker 1: of those people reporting using the stack of lions main
Speaker 1: niacin and psilocybin micro dosing on the average of three
Speaker 1: times a week, average of one tenth or one third
Speaker 1: of a gram of paul cyban, there is a massive
Speaker 1: increase in the tap test over thirty days. The tap
Speaker 1: test metrics go from about forty three approximately taps in
Speaker 1: ten seconds to seventy three in thirty days. That's not subjective, folks.
Speaker 1: So we found massive increase in the tap test in
Speaker 1: thirty days. And the age group of over the age
Speaker 1: of fifty five that's what we really saw the signal.
Speaker 1: It shows synergy and this is why I've hit the
Speaker 1: freaking home run, folks I. I could not be happier.
Speaker 1: There's also a lot of evidence of animals using and
Speaker 1: even getting high off the psilocypic mushrooms, right, Yeah, there's
Speaker 1: a lot of examples the ingestion of mushrooms by animals,
Speaker 1: from insects to two bearers, to people, two dogs, to cats,
Speaker 1: to birds. I mean as part of the food chain, folks. Um.
Speaker 1: And you know, there's twenty three including humans primates that
Speaker 1: are known to ingest mushrooms and they know the differences
Speaker 1: between poisonous and edible ones. That speaks to a long
Speaker 1: ancestral knowledge of the fact that mushrooms are good as
Speaker 1: a nutrition or part of our food, going back millions
Speaker 1: of years, with so many different species documented ingesting mushrooms
Speaker 1: of as a food, and invariably they would also encounter
Speaker 1: the pelocybin mushrooms, and some of these sulciban mushrooms, especially
Speaker 1: in the subtropics and the tropics, are uncommonly common, all
Speaker 1: of which kind of leads us to the Stone Day
Speaker 1: hypothesis of Terence McKenna and I guess some of his
Speaker 1: predecessors that I think you've been a clause. I believer
Speaker 1: in right that the role of pilocytic mushrooms in human evolution.
Speaker 1: You know that Terrence and Dennis mccanna came up with us,
Speaker 1: and I was on the other side of defense making
Speaker 1: fun of him that was a great stoner conversation. But listen,
Speaker 1: with our cellular data that we have right now, we
Speaker 1: can see that soul cybin and sulocybin analogs that I
Speaker 1: just mentioned activate nerve growth receptors and code for the
Speaker 1: regeneration and the origination of new neurons is happening. Folks.
Speaker 1: This is about a problem that I find so warious
Speaker 1: about this orthodox scientific community. They stand on their high
Speaker 1: chair and they throw spears, but they are not forgiving
Speaker 1: for those who are visionaries, who speculate, and that's imagination.
Speaker 1: Speculation has led to the greatest innovations in the history
Speaker 1: of science. Let's take a break here and go to
Speaker 1: an ad well. I remember a few years ago I
Speaker 1: read this wonderful novel by Richard powers Boll The Overstory
Speaker 1: when the Poetzer Prize, and it was about basically almost
Speaker 1: looking at the world through the eyes of trees in
Speaker 1: a way, and you know, I mean, and it talked
Speaker 1: about these elements of the networks and communications in almost community.
Speaker 1: It's not familial existence among trees. And ibviously massilia mushrooms
Speaker 1: fungi played this big role in this. And then I've
Speaker 1: heard you make these analogies between the plant life and
Speaker 1: the fungi life, and the networks and the communication and
Speaker 1: also when we think about the networks of the Internet
Speaker 1: and other types of neural networks, and I wonder if
Speaker 1: you could just you know, expand on that is the
Speaker 1: sense in which the future, you're the metaverse, and things
Speaker 1: are learning anything from studying the fung gui. I mean,
Speaker 1: you talk about some of the Silicon Valley innovators and
Speaker 1: entrepreneurs and pioneers. But is there some interplay between these worlds. Well,
Speaker 1: there are a few universal truths in nature, and I
Speaker 1: think one of them is networks are self perpetuating. Uh,
Speaker 1: They're agile, responding to ever changing in circumstances, you know,
Speaker 1: at the tips of the mycelium. And we actually checked
Speaker 1: this mathematically because I've said this in the movie Fantastic
Speaker 1: Fungi that the breadth of my arms outstretched could have
Speaker 1: trillions of a cross branchings and and tips. You know,
Speaker 1: they're multinuclea. At the tips, there's multi many nuclei and
Speaker 1: there they're testing and coding and they're responding. And if
Speaker 1: there's a new genomic expression from epigenesis, the stimulus of
Speaker 1: an environmental stimulus on the genome of the organism, and
Speaker 1: it codes for a new protein that allows you to
Speaker 1: have more food or more protection or more survival advantage.
Speaker 1: What happens Those genes then get replicated and moreover, the
Speaker 1: network becomes informed of this success, and so there's a
Speaker 1: memory then going forward. And so these networks not only
Speaker 1: vaccinate themselves, but there are massive repositories of knowledge. So networks,
Speaker 1: I think, by their very structure are evolutionary successful. And
Speaker 1: the invention of the computer internet, I think of the
Speaker 1: repetition of a previously proven evolutionary successful model. We see
Speaker 1: it with mycelium, we see it with neurons. And I'm
Speaker 1: an amateur astronomer, so I see it in organization of
Speaker 1: dark matter. You know, I think these are echoes on
Speaker 1: different orders of magnitude of the same structure. So I
Speaker 1: just think I waxed poetic in my thinking, because when
Speaker 1: you trip on sul side mushrooms, as you well know,
Speaker 1: you have this feeling of being in the context of
Speaker 1: some giant consciousness. You're You're no longer just a corporeal
Speaker 1: envelope of inside of a human shell. You're part of
Speaker 1: this giant expanse of universal being of existence. And I
Speaker 1: think this has increasing scientific credibility. I think nature is conscious.
Speaker 1: I think everything in nature is conscious. We are not
Speaker 1: as conscious as the consciousness that surrounds us. And I
Speaker 1: think this is what these psychedelics do. And they open
Speaker 1: up your imagination to think boldly and I will say
Speaker 1: brilliantly in many cases. And also people can go out
Speaker 1: way out there. I'm not saying that they can't, but uh,
Speaker 1: you know, you like Andy Wile and some others, you know,
Speaker 1: interesting act with the broader issues of health and wellness
Speaker 1: and in this case mushrooms in medicine. But there's a
Speaker 1: way in which you also a key figure in the
Speaker 1: intersection with the environment. And I mean, so let me
Speaker 1: just ask you about bees and mushrooms, so just elaborate.
Speaker 1: We are Neanderthals of nuclear weapons, is how I look
Speaker 1: at this, because I was a beekeeper and a mushroom
Speaker 1: growert at the then intersection of those two scientific disciplines.
Speaker 1: There's a tremendous die off of bees around the world
Speaker 1: right now, and so I use my cilium to up
Speaker 1: regulate the immune system of bees. We published in Nature,
Speaker 1: I'm the primary author and Nature Scientific Reports. Ethan, You'll
Speaker 1: love this as in the ninety nine point ninth percentile
Speaker 1: of all articles ever published in the Nature publication ecosystem,
Speaker 1: including Nature of Medicine, and only about seven percent of
Speaker 1: the articles get accepted they are submitted to Nature, and
Speaker 1: I'm in the top point one percent. So the basically
Speaker 1: in Nature and our article one treatment with a ratime
Speaker 1: much from mycelium extract is the mycelium folks reduced viruses
Speaker 1: that harmbes by forty five thousand times with one treatment
Speaker 1: and their sugar water at a one percent concentration. That's
Speaker 1: that's one drop per hundred drops of sugar water. Sugar
Speaker 1: water so phenomenal. So it was stated to me by
Speaker 1: the Cornell University J Evans, who's also a co author
Speaker 1: in our paper, and ten years he's not seen a
Speaker 1: virus freeb. The veroa might have spread these viruses now
Speaker 1: and they's called a worldwide pandemic and world be pollination
Speaker 1: services are in jeopardy. So this is something I think
Speaker 1: as a paradigm solution. We've been working with the FDA
Speaker 1: and the U. S d A for two years because
Speaker 1: we are not allowed to commercialize us. Now, think of this, folks.
Speaker 1: You've got a solution that could say bio diversity, but
Speaker 1: government regulations prevent you because bees, honey bees are considered
Speaker 1: to be my her livestock and because their minor live stock,
Speaker 1: the food they are allowed to consume and the allowed
Speaker 1: to buy for your commercial bees is regulated by the government.
Speaker 1: You can feed your family and your children more foods
Speaker 1: than you're allowed to feed to livestock. So we've been
Speaker 1: trying now for a year and a half going on
Speaker 1: two years to get an exemption and a pathway forward
Speaker 1: with the f d A. But after then continuous dialogue
Speaker 1: back and forth, they begin to soften up and they
Speaker 1: really see your well intended, You've got something that could
Speaker 1: be a benefit. So so the FDA actually has given
Speaker 1: us a road map now for approval and then we
Speaker 1: hope to be able to have this made available now. Again,
Speaker 1: patents are blueprints anyone who's a mushroom cultivator, who knows
Speaker 1: how to do in virtual propagation like I do. You
Speaker 1: can take my patent, you can grow up your own mysilium,
Speaker 1: you can do an extract, you can feed your own bees.
Speaker 1: It's just you cannot commercialize it. Googled you with Google
Speaker 1: News just before this conversation here, and when you put
Speaker 1: Paul Stamitz in there, what pops up more often than you?
Speaker 1: Paul Stamitz is the character in the Star Trek TV
Speaker 1: show that's named after you, right, an astro my collogist
Speaker 1: named Paul Stamits. But then I see you have this
Speaker 1: relationship with NASA and you have these I think a
Speaker 1: grant or something that's looking at asteroids and mushrooms. I mean,
Speaker 1: what's that about. I live in this remote island right now,
Speaker 1: you know, the quarantine safe in the can British Columbia,
Speaker 1: and I built my house in the shape and Star
Speaker 1: Truck Enterprise. So they called me up and I'm like,
Speaker 1: you know, I'm sitting on the Star duck of my
Speaker 1: cabin that was built as a tribute to Star Truck Enterprise,
Speaker 1: and you're calling me up, you know, to ask him
Speaker 1: about this we're supposed to right the next Star Truck series.
Speaker 1: We're searching for ideas. We saw your Ted talk, Do
Speaker 1: you have any ideas? And I said, oh my god,
Speaker 1: as a turn on your tape recorder and that, and
Speaker 1: then we spent two hours and a half. The two hours,
Speaker 1: but I said at the end, I've always wanted to
Speaker 1: be the first astro mycologists. They said, what what would
Speaker 1: you say as an astromycologist? And they go, we can
Speaker 1: use that, We can use that. What's the thing with
Speaker 1: NASA though, I mean there's some some grant proposal or
Speaker 1: pat thing about asteroids and mushrooms. Yeah, it's a small grant,
Speaker 1: it's only eight dollars. Is basically a proof of concept.
Speaker 1: Can we take regularly which is basically the lunar or
Speaker 1: asteroid mineral dust, and can we then turn it into
Speaker 1: soil to grow plants for human habitation? With this NASA grant,
Speaker 1: we have a what's called a white paper that we
Speaker 1: produced and uh, two of my colleagues, you know, get
Speaker 1: credit for doing the heavy lifting on this. We designed
Speaker 1: the experiments together and then we found sure enough, it
Speaker 1: looks like it's a great gateway. The implications of which
Speaker 1: means that once human beings are living on other plans
Speaker 1: it's or other extra tutorial spaces, that they will be
Speaker 1: able to create their own food on these things by
Speaker 1: using these fungi. Fungi basically munch rocks. Fungi eat rocks,
Speaker 1: liberate minerals, associate with algae, likens form micro rosal. Fungi
Speaker 1: pair with plants, so uh, they break down minerals and
Speaker 1: they send it to plants, and the plants reward the
Speaker 1: massilium um with with nutrients. It's much easier to send
Speaker 1: seeds and spores so to Mars than it is to
Speaker 1: carry you know, two years of food or five years
Speaker 1: or ten years of food. So, yeah, you want to
Speaker 1: become sustainable. Remember you said what we've running into the
Speaker 1: phrase hemp will save the world, right, And there's an
Speaker 1: element you know where you're out there saying mushrooms, you know,
Speaker 1: massilian will save the world or help save the world.
Speaker 1: I think it's true. I actually think it's true. The
Speaker 1: evidence that we have now it's just so vast and
Speaker 1: so deep that these massilian networks are the dominant interface
Speaker 1: organisms that are existent funget create soils. Folks without soil,
Speaker 1: you don't have life, so they are instrumental and there
Speaker 1: in the production of soil. Can this sort of thing
Speaker 1: be scaled up in a way which can address some
Speaker 1: of the major challenges of climate change? Well, let me
Speaker 1: put it this way. I can take a piece of
Speaker 1: a tissue one tenth the size of your fingernail from
Speaker 1: a mushroom, let's say an oyster mushroom, and four to
Speaker 1: six months grow ten million pounds of mushrooms. That is
Speaker 1: literally true. So when you look at the scalability of
Speaker 1: the fermentation in virtual technology, the ability of you being
Speaker 1: able to generate enough massilium to replace leather, to replace meat,
Speaker 1: to be able to help ecosystems breakdown toxins, to be
Speaker 1: able to grow enough soulocybin mushrooms to expand consciousness, and
Speaker 1: I think soul cyban it will lead to humans becoming
Speaker 1: a new species. We are not the Homo sapiens of
Speaker 1: the past several hundred thousand years. We better not be.
Speaker 1: There's time for us to be evolved and have a
Speaker 1: quantum leap in the evolution of a human species. I
Speaker 1: think psilocybin mushrooms and the use of my cilium and
Speaker 1: all these applications that I have alluded to is a
Speaker 1: paradigm shifting microtechnology that can literally say billions of lies
Speaker 1: and ironically is just now being discovered. The conventional anti
Speaker 1: mycology mindset is being de selected out of the gene pool.
Speaker 1: Of course, there'll be a lot of starts and stops.
Speaker 1: But there's a dozen companies now. I mean Mercedes just
Speaker 1: announced they have my cilium leather and their new concept vehicles. Um,
Speaker 1: there's many big alternative meat companies that have sward in
Speaker 1: their I p O. S UM and gathering a lot
Speaker 1: of investment money. Many of these companies will fail, a
Speaker 1: few will succeed, but that's the cost of entrepreneurialism to
Speaker 1: dare to be different and as you know, I have
Speaker 1: been talking about this for forty years, another loan voice
Speaker 1: in the woods. There are to be imaginative. And is
Speaker 1: there a comparable fascination with this stuff in China as
Speaker 1: there is in the West. Yeah, China is very interesting.
Speaker 1: The long history of use of mushrooms in China as
Speaker 1: a immutant tonic is fantastic. It's extremely well established. The
Speaker 1: innovation that we're seeing now in a sense may have
Speaker 1: that is my selial roots in China. But by no
Speaker 1: means as one culture now dominate. The field of mycology
Speaker 1: is a worldwide movement. It's a pluralistic movement, and I
Speaker 1: think that's wonderful. Paul, I almost forgot to ask you
Speaker 1: a question I asked me of the guests. So are
Speaker 1: you still consuming psilocybin with some frequency? Do you experiment
Speaker 1: among the different varieties peyote, mescal in, ayahuaska, d m T.
Speaker 1: I mean, is this still a part of your life
Speaker 1: in a significant way or is it more part of
Speaker 1: your younger years. I'm six, the six years of age.
Speaker 1: I was born in nine, and I will never be
Speaker 1: an apologist for my use to sell saban mushrooms. They're
Speaker 1: core to my being and who I am. I I journey,
Speaker 1: as I say, or or trip at least once a
Speaker 1: year with a very large dose. I do it a
Speaker 1: very protected set and setting is very much core of
Speaker 1: who I am and my being. And um I think
Speaker 1: is showing medically supported evidence now that one of these
Speaker 1: events can be life changing, infrequently used, but long term
Speaker 1: benefits that put it outside the realm of the war
Speaker 1: against drug narrative that was propaganda in the past. So
Speaker 1: absolutely believe in the benefits of these set and setting.
Speaker 1: You know, having the right person with you. Journeying by
Speaker 1: yourself is not advisable. Having a sitter, a doctor, a therapist,
Speaker 1: the therapeutic stunning. Of course, this is much better. But
Speaker 1: for the people coming into this scene novo, you know
Speaker 1: new I'm very concerned of them shopping around and trying
Speaker 1: to find it would be leader or a guide, and
Speaker 1: then unfortunately making a bad decision. That's a discussion for
Speaker 1: another time perhaps. Yeah, And is there a part of
Speaker 1: you that feels a loyalty or allegiance to psilocybin relative
Speaker 1: to mescaline or d m T or LSD or other substances. Well,
Speaker 1: LSD is twelve hours. Psilocybin is four to four to
Speaker 1: six hours. That's one of the reasons why it's chose
Speaker 1: for clinical studies, folks. It fits into an eight hour
Speaker 1: work day for the physicians. But you personally, what about
Speaker 1: you personally? You know, d m T is very very quick.
Speaker 1: It's a great elevator ride. I have enjoyed it in
Speaker 1: the past, but I don't get the message and maybe
Speaker 1: I'm dumb. Maybe I need to have a longer exposure.
Speaker 1: But in four to six hours, I can process a
Speaker 1: lot in fifteen minutes to twenty minutes. I mean, I'm
Speaker 1: holding onto my chair and going into into cyberspace, you know,
Speaker 1: and at a high acceleration. It's wonderful and you get
Speaker 1: into the spaciousness and dissociative destruction of the ego. But
Speaker 1: I I don't get the time that I need to
Speaker 1: to love myself. And this is ultimately, I think the
Speaker 1: core of humanity is based on goodness, and I think
Speaker 1: Saul Cybin removes all these layers that complicate self love
Speaker 1: and understanding. If you can love yourself, then you can
Speaker 1: love others. And I think that's the root of violence.
Speaker 1: The root of depression is people not realizing that if
Speaker 1: you can come to terms to love yourself, then you
Speaker 1: can love others because you know who you are. And
Speaker 1: the same thing that could be said of mescal in
Speaker 1: or ayahuasca. Though right, yeah, I have not done ayahuasca
Speaker 1: from the experiences that I've been told. Yes, the thing
Speaker 1: about sula side mushrooms are so cool is that's really
Speaker 1: not cultural appropriation. Hundred and sixteen species of sul side
Speaker 1: mushrooms are known around the world. They were used in
Speaker 1: Europe and Ireland in South America and North America. They
Speaker 1: were used all over the world. It's not like peyote,
Speaker 1: which I actually very protective of the peyote hunt and
Speaker 1: the Pyote people, and that is an endangered species that
Speaker 1: shouldn't be made available in my opinion, to the masses
Speaker 1: because it is threatened and it is cultural appropriation because
Speaker 1: the peyote hunt is so specific to the peoples that
Speaker 1: that use them. On the other hand, pulcibe mushrooms like
Speaker 1: this one professor who I want mentioned her name, but
Speaker 1: she was very very adamant that this is a cultural
Speaker 1: approchriation where it's stealing from the MAZA techs. And I said,
Speaker 1: you know, I know many people who have studied with
Speaker 1: the mass of text and I've been in correspondence with
Speaker 1: some of the MASSA tech people as well. They don't
Speaker 1: use lossopy commences. They use losopy zappa ta quorum, so
Speaker 1: there's no cultural appropriation and using pelosophy cabensus when the
Speaker 1: Masso texts have a history of disdaining solasopy cadences, they
Speaker 1: don't want to use it. They use the slossomy zappa
Speaker 1: ta quorum, which is indigenous to their ecosystem. So it's
Speaker 1: a real different thing. And and this is why when
Speaker 1: people realize that people all over the world have been
Speaker 1: using sulcaban mushrooms and the fact that you Losinan mysteries
Speaker 1: went from fifteen hundred b c E. The five hundred
Speaker 1: a d. Two thousand years of use and Greek culture
Speaker 1: of a psychoactive substance. There's deep roots in Europe and
Speaker 1: the use of psychoactive fungi for spiritual purposes. So the
Speaker 1: ubiquity of the common experience of soul Simon brings cultures altogether.
Speaker 1: Of course, the Maso texts have unique knowledge. Of course,
Speaker 1: the ancient Greeks have unique knowledge. We all have unique
Speaker 1: cultural perspectives. But we can contribute to the greater good
Speaker 1: by bringing our knowledge and our experiences together while at
Speaker 1: the same time protecting indigenous knowledge. Well, Paul, I mean,
Speaker 1: this is fascinating, a wide ranging discussion. Listen. I think
Speaker 1: it's incredible obviously what you're doing for our listeners. Watch
Speaker 1: the documentary Fantastic Fungi on Netflix where Paul really features
Speaker 1: in that, and there's other documentaries about him as well.
Speaker 1: Or his website is Paul Damas dot com, or follow
Speaker 1: him on Facebook. Or Twitter or all these other sorts
Speaker 1: of things with Paul, you know, I I just think
Speaker 1: what you're you're really a revolutionary force in the world
Speaker 1: and a revolutionary force for good. So thank you so
Speaker 1: much for joining me on Psychoactive. Well, thank you so much.
Speaker 1: And it's really it's not what we make in this
Speaker 1: lifetime is a legacy that we leave. It's important for
Speaker 1: all of us psychogonosty to create new doors that the
Speaker 1: next generation and can walk through. We need to pass
Speaker 1: off these keys to these new doors of knowledge. And
Speaker 1: that's one thing that I've come to greatly appreciate and
Speaker 1: respect is my destiny is to help others make greater
Speaker 1: discoveries than that which I've made myself. So we're all part,
Speaker 1: We're all part of this one giant consciousness. Well, thank
Speaker 1: you very very much. If you're enjoying Psychoactive, please tell
Speaker 1: your friends about it, or you can write us a
Speaker 1: review at Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 1: We love to hear from our listeners. If you'd like
Speaker 1: to share your own stories, comments, and ideas, then leave
Speaker 1: us a message at one eight three three seven seven
Speaker 1: nine sixty. That's eight three three psycho zero, or you
Speaker 1: can email us at Psychoactive at protozoa dot com or
Speaker 1: find me on Twitter at Ethan natal Made. You can
Speaker 1: also find contact information in our show notes. Psychoact. It
Speaker 1: is a production of I Heart Radio and Protozoa Pictures.
Speaker 1: It's hosted by me Ethan Naedelman's produced by Noam Osband
Speaker 1: and Josh Stain. The executive producers are Dylan Golden, Ari Handel,
Speaker 1: Elizabeth Geesus and Darren Aronovsky from Protozoa Pictures, Alex Williams
Speaker 1: and Matt Frederick from My Heart Radio, and me Ethan Nadelman.
Speaker 1: Our music is by Ari Blucien and a special thanks
Speaker 1: to a Brio s f Bianca Grimshaw and Robert Babe.
Speaker 1: Next week I'll be talking with Anifa Nile Washington, the
Speaker 1: co founder of the Fireside Project, a Psychedelic Pierre support line,
Speaker 1: and we'll also be talking about the issue of black
Speaker 1: people and psychedelics. We feel as we move into this
Speaker 1: next psychedelic space in history here, as we legalize and decriminalize,
Speaker 1: we have to you have risk reduction and support. Without
Speaker 1: risk reduction the decrim movement and legalization, it's maybe taking
Speaker 1: a step backward or moving itself into risky spaces, and
Speaker 1: so we also want to help to support people understand
Speaker 1: that you know, psychedelic uses happening. Subscribe to Cycleactive now,
Speaker 1: see it, don't miss it.