1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:07,760 Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Ethan Nadelman, and this is Psychoactive, a production 2 00:00:07,800 --> 00:00:11,600 Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio and Protozoa Pictures. Psychoactive is the 3 00:00:11,640 --> 00:00:15,040 Speaker 1: show where we talk about all things drugs. But any 4 00:00:15,160 --> 00:00:18,760 Speaker 1: views expressed here do not represent those of I Heart Media, 5 00:00:18,920 --> 00:00:23,480 Speaker 1: Protozoa Pictures, or their executives and employees. Indeed, heed as 6 00:00:23,520 --> 00:00:26,400 Speaker 1: an inveterate contrarian, I can tell you they may not 7 00:00:26,560 --> 00:00:30,760 Speaker 1: even represent my own and nothing contained in this show 8 00:00:30,840 --> 00:00:33,680 Speaker 1: should be used as medical advice or encouragement to use 9 00:00:33,800 --> 00:00:42,680 Speaker 1: any type of drug. One of the most popular episodes 10 00:00:42,760 --> 00:00:45,199 Speaker 1: the Psychoactive to date has been the one where I 11 00:00:45,240 --> 00:00:48,600 Speaker 1: invited my friend Julie Holland to service my co host 12 00:00:48,680 --> 00:00:51,960 Speaker 1: and answer questions with me from you the audience. So 13 00:00:51,960 --> 00:00:54,680 Speaker 1: we're going to record another one of those episodes, and 14 00:00:54,800 --> 00:00:58,120 Speaker 1: we need your questions. Leave us a voicemail with a 15 00:00:58,200 --> 00:01:01,800 Speaker 1: question as detailed us Bob Stable at one eight three 16 00:01:01,880 --> 00:01:06,080 Speaker 1: three seven seven nine sixty, or you can record a 17 00:01:06,160 --> 00:01:09,920 Speaker 1: voice memo and send it to Psychoactive at protozoa dot com. 18 00:01:10,400 --> 00:01:12,640 Speaker 1: I'm sure it's going to be a great second go 19 00:01:12,720 --> 00:01:17,560 Speaker 1: with this. Hello, Psychoactive listeners. Today's guest is somebody who's 20 00:01:17,600 --> 00:01:21,920 Speaker 1: actually pretty famous, not just in a small world, but 21 00:01:22,040 --> 00:01:26,400 Speaker 1: becoming increasingly so. His name is Paul Stammits, and he 22 00:01:26,600 --> 00:01:31,240 Speaker 1: is really the guru, the maestro of mushrooms, and not 23 00:01:31,360 --> 00:01:36,360 Speaker 1: just psilocybin psychedelic mushrooms, but mushrooms written large. I mean, 24 00:01:36,400 --> 00:01:38,360 Speaker 1: he's an all Three's in a lot of books about 25 00:01:38,400 --> 00:01:42,240 Speaker 1: growing mushrooms, about how mushrooms can help save the world. 26 00:01:42,560 --> 00:01:46,000 Speaker 1: He's a researcher, he's an inventor. He holds a lot 27 00:01:46,040 --> 00:01:48,320 Speaker 1: of patents and has a lot more, you know, currently 28 00:01:48,360 --> 00:01:52,920 Speaker 1: under consideration. Michael Pollen in his book Changing Your Mind, 29 00:01:53,200 --> 00:01:55,840 Speaker 1: you know, compares Paul to some of the great amateur 30 00:01:55,920 --> 00:01:59,200 Speaker 1: naturalists like Darwin, and he's somebody that I've known a 31 00:01:59,240 --> 00:02:01,680 Speaker 1: little bit over the year. So, Paul, thank you so 32 00:02:01,760 --> 00:02:04,840 Speaker 1: much for taking the time to come on Psychoactive with me. Well, 33 00:02:04,960 --> 00:02:08,120 Speaker 1: pleasure to be here. Thank you so much. Brother. Yeah, well, listen, 34 00:02:08,160 --> 00:02:12,320 Speaker 1: I remember the first times you and I crossed paths 35 00:02:12,480 --> 00:02:16,840 Speaker 1: must have been late nineties, early two thousands, and it 36 00:02:17,000 --> 00:02:20,840 Speaker 1: was that at that annual mushroom conference until your ride 37 00:02:20,960 --> 00:02:23,840 Speaker 1: and I just remember blowing being blown away because you 38 00:02:23,880 --> 00:02:28,760 Speaker 1: gave these three speeches, one on mushrooms and the environment, 39 00:02:28,919 --> 00:02:33,080 Speaker 1: one on mushrooms and medicine, and one on mushrooms and 40 00:02:33,160 --> 00:02:37,560 Speaker 1: the mind, and each one was more extraordinary than the other. 41 00:02:38,160 --> 00:02:40,880 Speaker 1: But let me back up here and just ask the 42 00:02:40,919 --> 00:02:44,440 Speaker 1: first question, how did it come about? How did you 43 00:02:45,040 --> 00:02:49,720 Speaker 1: and mushrooms get married in this way? Obviously many many 44 00:02:49,760 --> 00:02:54,200 Speaker 1: decades ago? What's the story one of my older brother John, 45 00:02:54,520 --> 00:02:59,040 Speaker 1: he was the eldest brother, and he went to Yale 46 00:02:59,600 --> 00:03:02,200 Speaker 1: and uh doing one of his vacations, he went down 47 00:03:02,240 --> 00:03:07,080 Speaker 1: to Mexico and Colombia and collected philosophy cubensus, which is 48 00:03:07,080 --> 00:03:11,760 Speaker 1: the most common and popular even today. Paul side mushroom 49 00:03:11,760 --> 00:03:15,960 Speaker 1: growing on cow patties in the subtropics circumpolar all over 50 00:03:16,000 --> 00:03:18,920 Speaker 1: the world, in the subtropics, by the way, And he 51 00:03:19,000 --> 00:03:21,919 Speaker 1: came back to these amazing stories of tripping on paulocybin. 52 00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:25,320 Speaker 1: And I was just fourteen years of age or so, 53 00:03:25,560 --> 00:03:28,560 Speaker 1: you know. I was fascinated because I adored my older 54 00:03:28,600 --> 00:03:32,600 Speaker 1: brother and he had these crazy adventures also very secretly 55 00:03:32,600 --> 00:03:35,920 Speaker 1: told to me out of the ear shot or ear 56 00:03:36,040 --> 00:03:39,120 Speaker 1: range of my parents. And it was just such an exciting, 57 00:03:39,560 --> 00:03:41,880 Speaker 1: you know, adventure stories he had. And little did I 58 00:03:41,920 --> 00:03:45,640 Speaker 1: know how powerful that these mushrooms would really become in 59 00:03:45,760 --> 00:03:48,640 Speaker 1: my life. Now, mushrooms had become the zeitgeist of our time. 60 00:03:48,760 --> 00:03:52,640 Speaker 1: It says sort of worldwide revolutions coming up from the underground, 61 00:03:52,680 --> 00:03:57,280 Speaker 1: and it's unifying across cultures and continents. Yeah. I remember 62 00:03:57,280 --> 00:03:59,040 Speaker 1: reading that that you had grown up in a sort 63 00:03:59,040 --> 00:04:02,920 Speaker 1: of traditional Christian or maybe evangelical background. I mean, was 64 00:04:02,960 --> 00:04:05,960 Speaker 1: that something you rebelled against before you even got into 65 00:04:05,960 --> 00:04:08,720 Speaker 1: this mushroom thing, or were the ways in which you 66 00:04:08,760 --> 00:04:10,640 Speaker 1: were influenced by that in ways you think may have 67 00:04:10,720 --> 00:04:16,000 Speaker 1: shaped you're thinking, either reactively or synergistically. Well, thank you 68 00:04:16,040 --> 00:04:17,960 Speaker 1: for that question. No one's really asked me that. In 69 00:04:17,960 --> 00:04:21,160 Speaker 1: the same way, I was actually kind of turned on 70 00:04:21,600 --> 00:04:24,960 Speaker 1: with the aspect of older states of consciousness. And so 71 00:04:25,080 --> 00:04:28,240 Speaker 1: when I see these charismatic Christians go into these trances 72 00:04:28,320 --> 00:04:34,120 Speaker 1: and speaking in tongues and doing this frankly weird asked stuff, 73 00:04:34,680 --> 00:04:37,240 Speaker 1: I took a more of an academic point of view. 74 00:04:37,279 --> 00:04:39,760 Speaker 1: I thought, well, this is they're actually altering their consciousness, 75 00:04:39,880 --> 00:04:43,880 Speaker 1: just like with psil cybin. But that sort of flight, uh, 76 00:04:43,920 --> 00:04:47,000 Speaker 1: into an older states of consciousness was really interesting to me. 77 00:04:47,279 --> 00:04:48,839 Speaker 1: You're just a year or two older than me, but 78 00:04:48,880 --> 00:04:51,280 Speaker 1: I think we also both kind of came of age. 79 00:04:51,360 --> 00:04:53,840 Speaker 1: You know, there are twenties in the in the mid 80 00:04:53,880 --> 00:04:56,000 Speaker 1: to late seventies, which was, you know, a kind of 81 00:04:56,040 --> 00:05:00,320 Speaker 1: brief period of live and let live between the kind 82 00:05:00,360 --> 00:05:03,840 Speaker 1: of Nixon versus political radicalism of the sixties and early 83 00:05:03,920 --> 00:05:06,640 Speaker 1: seventies and then the Reagan generation and you know, and 84 00:05:06,680 --> 00:05:08,440 Speaker 1: prepping for this interview, I read some things that I 85 00:05:08,480 --> 00:05:09,760 Speaker 1: didn't know, which is, you know when you go to 86 00:05:09,800 --> 00:05:12,480 Speaker 1: Evergreen State College, is that you know and and that 87 00:05:12,600 --> 00:05:17,479 Speaker 1: you start organizing these conferences about mushrooms and such and 88 00:05:17,680 --> 00:05:21,080 Speaker 1: inviting this remarkable group of people. I mean, you're only 89 00:05:21,120 --> 00:05:23,880 Speaker 1: what twenty around that time, right, and you're bringing in 90 00:05:23,880 --> 00:05:26,920 Speaker 1: a kind of who's who some of the leading figures 91 00:05:26,920 --> 00:05:30,080 Speaker 1: what in both my college and psychedelics. Yeah, it was, 92 00:05:30,800 --> 00:05:33,039 Speaker 1: like I mentioned, I was a logger hippie for about 93 00:05:33,080 --> 00:05:35,440 Speaker 1: three years, and then three guys in my crew got 94 00:05:35,520 --> 00:05:38,839 Speaker 1: killed and I decided to go back to college, or 95 00:05:38,920 --> 00:05:41,640 Speaker 1: go to college. I went to Kenyon College for a year, 96 00:05:41,880 --> 00:05:44,200 Speaker 1: and then I took off into the woods for a 97 00:05:44,279 --> 00:05:47,960 Speaker 1: period of time, and but I was writing my first book. Um, 98 00:05:48,200 --> 00:05:49,920 Speaker 1: so I lost to be much of them, our allies. 99 00:05:50,040 --> 00:05:52,440 Speaker 1: I started it when I was eighteen nineteen years of age, 100 00:05:52,480 --> 00:05:55,080 Speaker 1: and I spent a huge amount of time at the 101 00:05:55,160 --> 00:05:58,320 Speaker 1: University of Washington Library in the basement the Science library, 102 00:05:58,960 --> 00:06:03,599 Speaker 1: looking up the works of shalts And and Wasson and 103 00:06:03,720 --> 00:06:08,680 Speaker 1: other great you know researchers. Most of the books, as 104 00:06:08,720 --> 00:06:12,200 Speaker 1: you probably remember, we're razored out. You go to the library, 105 00:06:12,200 --> 00:06:13,919 Speaker 1: you check out a book on psycho had a chapter 106 00:06:13,920 --> 00:06:16,840 Speaker 1: on psychedelics. The whole chapter has been razored out. When 107 00:06:16,880 --> 00:06:19,279 Speaker 1: I was knowing my research, you know, coming down the 108 00:06:19,320 --> 00:06:21,880 Speaker 1: University of Washington, there are new rous species in the 109 00:06:21,920 --> 00:06:28,120 Speaker 1: Northwest that have been reported, uh growing naturally in the fields, 110 00:06:28,200 --> 00:06:31,960 Speaker 1: like liberty caps Silosopy Simon lazziata, and wood chips Alosto 111 00:06:32,040 --> 00:06:34,600 Speaker 1: be sin Essen's Bay assistant center fair blossa. These are 112 00:06:34,600 --> 00:06:38,760 Speaker 1: all species names of mushrooms grown wood chips, and so 113 00:06:39,200 --> 00:06:43,600 Speaker 1: I started. Then I joined the taxonomic group that which 114 00:06:43,600 --> 00:06:47,039 Speaker 1: is called the Pacific Northwest Key Council, which we wrote 115 00:06:47,040 --> 00:06:54,760 Speaker 1: Taxonomic keys, binary decision trees, identifying species by characteristics whether 116 00:06:54,800 --> 00:06:59,360 Speaker 1: they have you know, brown spores or white spores, etcetera, etcetera. 117 00:06:59,400 --> 00:07:02,400 Speaker 1: You go down this sentry and so we I wrote. 118 00:07:02,400 --> 00:07:06,279 Speaker 1: I focused on this selcybin mushroom family h it's called 119 00:07:06,279 --> 00:07:11,280 Speaker 1: the Storferia. It's a family of Hyphenleomma or knee Metaloma, Stroferia, 120 00:07:11,280 --> 00:07:16,560 Speaker 1: and Philosopy. These are satellite genera within the family. I 121 00:07:16,600 --> 00:07:21,360 Speaker 1: say that because Storferia cubensis earl was first discovered in Cuba, 122 00:07:21,480 --> 00:07:23,760 Speaker 1: it was called a stor Feria, and then it got 123 00:07:23,800 --> 00:07:26,360 Speaker 1: moved over to the ginas Pelosopy where it is now. 124 00:07:27,120 --> 00:07:31,120 Speaker 1: So in the course of my research, realizing that these 125 00:07:31,200 --> 00:07:34,360 Speaker 1: mushrooms grow grew in the Pacific Northwest, but the my 126 00:07:34,480 --> 00:07:37,920 Speaker 1: collegists there were largely unaware. Dr Daniel Stunts in the 127 00:07:37,960 --> 00:07:42,040 Speaker 1: University of Washington, a great mycologist, told me, rarely ever 128 00:07:42,120 --> 00:07:45,760 Speaker 1: saw these until the hippie showed up. And the hippies 129 00:07:45,800 --> 00:07:50,440 Speaker 1: basically as wood chips landscaping around buildings. And when the 130 00:07:50,480 --> 00:07:53,760 Speaker 1: wood ship landscaping industry, you know, was born out of 131 00:07:53,800 --> 00:07:56,760 Speaker 1: the logging industry, that they had all these chips and 132 00:07:56,800 --> 00:07:59,880 Speaker 1: they use them for landscaping and mulching. Then the psilocybin 133 00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:04,840 Speaker 1: ushoms are showing up around campuses, so appropriate that these 134 00:08:04,880 --> 00:08:09,480 Speaker 1: young eager minds will be walking the campus and having 135 00:08:09,520 --> 00:08:13,480 Speaker 1: sulcide mushrooms coming up by the thousands, you know, right 136 00:08:13,680 --> 00:08:16,880 Speaker 1: right beside their walkaway. So I think that really spurred, 137 00:08:17,240 --> 00:08:19,320 Speaker 1: you know, and I think the argument can be made 138 00:08:19,320 --> 00:08:23,160 Speaker 1: it spurred the invention of the computer internet generation. You know, 139 00:08:23,480 --> 00:08:27,040 Speaker 1: so many of the psychokouts of the seventies went on 140 00:08:27,080 --> 00:08:31,080 Speaker 1: to give create some of the biggest internet based companies 141 00:08:31,120 --> 00:08:34,400 Speaker 1: that we know all today. It's a great photograph of 142 00:08:34,440 --> 00:08:37,480 Speaker 1: the founders of Microsoft. I encourage everyone to look it up. 143 00:08:37,960 --> 00:08:41,840 Speaker 1: Bill Gates is only the straight looking dude in that photograph. 144 00:08:42,280 --> 00:08:45,280 Speaker 1: Every one of them are long hairs, right. So, but 145 00:08:45,320 --> 00:08:48,080 Speaker 1: you're almost describe when you talk about these students showing up. 146 00:08:48,080 --> 00:08:50,840 Speaker 1: I mean, it's almost like you're describing this relationship between 147 00:08:50,920 --> 00:08:54,559 Speaker 1: mushrooms and humans, almost like between dogs and humans. Right 148 00:08:54,640 --> 00:08:57,240 Speaker 1: that that there was something about about, you know, the 149 00:08:57,440 --> 00:08:59,679 Speaker 1: way like dogs. I guess that survived. They say is 150 00:08:59,679 --> 00:09:01,679 Speaker 1: because they developed a special relationship with humans in a 151 00:09:01,720 --> 00:09:03,840 Speaker 1: way that many other wild creatures did not. And it 152 00:09:03,880 --> 00:09:06,079 Speaker 1: sounds like this an element of mushrooms. I mean, they 153 00:09:06,080 --> 00:09:09,000 Speaker 1: were going to be there before after during us no matter, 154 00:09:09,120 --> 00:09:12,680 Speaker 1: no matter us no. But they very good point that 155 00:09:12,720 --> 00:09:15,720 Speaker 1: there there there's a success for survival has been amplified 156 00:09:16,160 --> 00:09:20,240 Speaker 1: but by by hitchhiking and engaging humans. It goes back 157 00:09:20,240 --> 00:09:22,440 Speaker 1: to Michael Paulin's book, one of his books, The Botany 158 00:09:22,440 --> 00:09:27,800 Speaker 1: of desire Um. But yeah, it's very interesting. The paulocybin mushrooms, 159 00:09:27,920 --> 00:09:33,280 Speaker 1: which massively expand consciousness, are co occurring on a time 160 00:09:33,320 --> 00:09:36,920 Speaker 1: critical and the evolution of humans as they're having a 161 00:09:36,960 --> 00:09:41,440 Speaker 1: negative impact on the ecosystem that's given humans and other 162 00:09:41,559 --> 00:09:45,599 Speaker 1: organisms health and birth. So I do think there is 163 00:09:45,640 --> 00:09:50,960 Speaker 1: an element there of causality. And moreover, you know, you 164 00:09:50,960 --> 00:09:54,680 Speaker 1: can say this is deterministic or coincidental. In the long run, 165 00:09:54,800 --> 00:09:59,360 Speaker 1: it doesn't matter. The net effect is people who do 166 00:09:59,520 --> 00:10:04,280 Speaker 1: psyched alex are more pro environmental after the experience, They're 167 00:10:04,360 --> 00:10:08,600 Speaker 1: less prone to violence, they have a better sense of community, 168 00:10:08,640 --> 00:10:18,800 Speaker 1: of forgiveness. Psilocybin makes kinder, more responsible, more law abiding people. 169 00:10:19,200 --> 00:10:21,720 Speaker 1: And well, just to be clear and just to simplify, 170 00:10:21,760 --> 00:10:23,320 Speaker 1: a lot of this is for me in the audience. 171 00:10:23,480 --> 00:10:27,600 Speaker 1: I mean, is there a clear distinction between the the psychoactive, 172 00:10:27,600 --> 00:10:31,600 Speaker 1: the psilocybic mushrooms and the non psychoactive or is it 173 00:10:31,679 --> 00:10:36,000 Speaker 1: kind of a line spectrum of psychoactivity. That's a really 174 00:10:36,720 --> 00:10:39,400 Speaker 1: good and complicated question that I don't have a release 175 00:10:39,640 --> 00:10:44,160 Speaker 1: straightforward to answer, but I can give some partial answers. 176 00:10:44,200 --> 00:10:49,920 Speaker 1: Every mushroom species is a unique pharmaceutical factory as a 177 00:10:50,000 --> 00:10:55,880 Speaker 1: composite of literally thousands, in some cases hundreds of unique 178 00:10:55,920 --> 00:11:01,200 Speaker 1: molecules not found elsewhere. Think about each one of them 179 00:11:01,240 --> 00:11:04,520 Speaker 1: is a pharmaceutical factory as a whole slew of compounds 180 00:11:04,600 --> 00:11:08,199 Speaker 1: beneficial to human health, negative to human health. Some of 181 00:11:08,200 --> 00:11:09,960 Speaker 1: the compounds that are negative to human health can be 182 00:11:09,960 --> 00:11:13,400 Speaker 1: beneficial to ecological health. So you know, we have a 183 00:11:13,520 --> 00:11:16,720 Speaker 1: very biopic, human centric view of what is good and 184 00:11:16,760 --> 00:11:20,400 Speaker 1: what is bad. There is also plocybin analogs which are 185 00:11:20,400 --> 00:11:22,640 Speaker 1: totally legal, and that's what a big part of our 186 00:11:22,640 --> 00:11:26,400 Speaker 1: research is on is they are called the pulocybin analogs. 187 00:11:26,400 --> 00:11:31,080 Speaker 1: There's nor silason, nor baiosystem and biosystem. These are legal 188 00:11:31,160 --> 00:11:34,080 Speaker 1: trip to means that are also are being co produced 189 00:11:34,200 --> 00:11:37,800 Speaker 1: inside the natural form of pulocybin mushrooms that also have 190 00:11:37,840 --> 00:11:41,680 Speaker 1: a thousand year plussed history of use. They're fully legal, 191 00:11:41,840 --> 00:11:44,679 Speaker 1: and so that's an area that we also have found 192 00:11:44,720 --> 00:11:51,680 Speaker 1: extraordinary activity and increasing neurogeneration. So Paul, you know, reading 193 00:11:51,720 --> 00:11:54,400 Speaker 1: that chapter about you and Michael Pollen's book, and he 194 00:11:54,520 --> 00:11:57,440 Speaker 1: describes you as an autodidact, and you can sort of 195 00:11:57,760 --> 00:12:01,000 Speaker 1: feel this combination of his skeptic schism and then you 196 00:12:01,160 --> 00:12:05,320 Speaker 1: overcoming his skepticism, and you know him describing you as 197 00:12:05,440 --> 00:12:08,120 Speaker 1: this sort of great amateur naturalist in the tradition of 198 00:12:08,200 --> 00:12:11,120 Speaker 1: Darwin or and others. Uh. In what ways do you 199 00:12:11,200 --> 00:12:14,320 Speaker 1: think that has been more of an advantage or disadvantage 200 00:12:14,360 --> 00:12:16,400 Speaker 1: for your during your journey? Well, let's get to the 201 00:12:16,480 --> 00:12:20,200 Speaker 1: deep psychology um of course. And it's a chip on 202 00:12:20,280 --> 00:12:26,600 Speaker 1: my shoulder because my profession is mycology. I am a 203 00:12:26,640 --> 00:12:32,040 Speaker 1: professional mycologist. My income is from mycology. I will have 204 00:12:32,400 --> 00:12:36,959 Speaker 1: soon four papers published in Nature. It's the most prestigious, 205 00:12:37,040 --> 00:12:39,480 Speaker 1: if not the one, or if not the most prestigious 206 00:12:39,840 --> 00:12:44,920 Speaker 1: journals either in journal in the world. For people to 207 00:12:45,200 --> 00:12:49,160 Speaker 1: describe me as an amateur, I mean, do you have 208 00:12:49,200 --> 00:12:51,400 Speaker 1: to have a PhD in order to be a professional. 209 00:12:51,960 --> 00:12:54,840 Speaker 1: I think the nuance of language here begins to fall apart, 210 00:12:54,880 --> 00:13:00,720 Speaker 1: and it's it's used oftentimes, it's weaponized to cut me down. Hey, 211 00:13:00,760 --> 00:13:03,920 Speaker 1: I'm a warrior. I can take it. But I have 212 00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:06,719 Speaker 1: to release this challenge people. If my profession is my 213 00:13:06,840 --> 00:13:13,920 Speaker 1: cology I published in professional scientific journals. What part of 214 00:13:14,000 --> 00:13:19,000 Speaker 1: my work is not professional? When I waxed poetic about 215 00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:22,960 Speaker 1: the evolution of of the computer, Internet and in dark matter, 216 00:13:23,120 --> 00:13:26,599 Speaker 1: Sure that's speculative, but it's amazing that people want to 217 00:13:26,640 --> 00:13:30,120 Speaker 1: put you in a box to put you down, rather 218 00:13:30,200 --> 00:13:33,040 Speaker 1: than saying that these words don't really apply in the 219 00:13:33,040 --> 00:13:36,200 Speaker 1: conventional sense that you're using them. So imagine that place 220 00:13:36,280 --> 00:13:37,840 Speaker 1: less of a roll now. I mean, if you had 221 00:13:37,920 --> 00:13:41,880 Speaker 1: landed up getting a PhD along the way, it might 222 00:13:41,960 --> 00:13:43,920 Speaker 1: have helped you get the message out there in your 223 00:13:43,920 --> 00:13:48,640 Speaker 1: earlier years, but probably is irrelevant. Now listen, I'll tell 224 00:13:48,640 --> 00:13:53,199 Speaker 1: you something. I am so glad that I've been an outlier. 225 00:13:53,520 --> 00:13:57,520 Speaker 1: I'm so glad I met with John dore And and 226 00:13:57,720 --> 00:14:01,959 Speaker 1: his financial group, with Bill Gates, with Jeff Bezos. I 227 00:14:02,040 --> 00:14:05,400 Speaker 1: was too freaking weird for them. I was too out there. 228 00:14:05,480 --> 00:14:09,600 Speaker 1: I am so glad. I am so glad I was 229 00:14:09,720 --> 00:14:13,559 Speaker 1: not a person that they wanted to invest in because 230 00:14:13,600 --> 00:14:15,600 Speaker 1: I was too far out there. As a result, I'm 231 00:14:15,640 --> 00:14:19,880 Speaker 1: totally independent. I would tell anyone out there who are 232 00:14:19,920 --> 00:14:23,400 Speaker 1: sensitive to criticism, thank your critics, because they would just 233 00:14:23,520 --> 00:14:26,360 Speaker 1: make you stronger. Well, for young people, I mean when 234 00:14:26,400 --> 00:14:28,160 Speaker 1: when young people wanted to get in his field, you 235 00:14:28,280 --> 00:14:31,080 Speaker 1: encourage them to get a PhD. And you know, the 236 00:14:31,200 --> 00:14:34,040 Speaker 1: study of but my college year may see helmet definitely 237 00:14:34,040 --> 00:14:35,960 Speaker 1: make much of a difference one way or the other. Well, 238 00:14:36,240 --> 00:14:39,240 Speaker 1: I mean Bill Gates dropped out of Harvard, uh, you know, 239 00:14:39,320 --> 00:14:42,440 Speaker 1: and started started Microsoft. I mean there's many, many examples 240 00:14:42,440 --> 00:14:45,440 Speaker 1: of people who have done that. Hey, the academic institutions 241 00:14:45,440 --> 00:14:48,880 Speaker 1: have resources, folks at bottom line, So yes, go through 242 00:14:48,880 --> 00:14:51,360 Speaker 1: a university, to go to a college, go to the 243 00:14:51,400 --> 00:14:54,560 Speaker 1: academic institutions who have the resources to be able to 244 00:14:54,960 --> 00:14:58,520 Speaker 1: help you. Now, in the days of Internet, and especially 245 00:14:58,560 --> 00:15:01,600 Speaker 1: in the days of COVID, you know, we have the 246 00:15:01,640 --> 00:15:06,720 Speaker 1: world encyclopedias at our fingertips. So if you're concerned about 247 00:15:06,920 --> 00:15:11,600 Speaker 1: tenure and getting a job at a university and fitting 248 00:15:11,640 --> 00:15:16,440 Speaker 1: into that box, then yeah, the credentials are are very 249 00:15:16,440 --> 00:15:19,840 Speaker 1: helpful and indeed necessary because you'll be out competed with 250 00:15:19,840 --> 00:15:24,000 Speaker 1: somebody who's more credential than yourself. You aren't credentials. But 251 00:15:24,720 --> 00:15:28,720 Speaker 1: are these labels really necessary? I mean, if if the 252 00:15:28,800 --> 00:15:32,280 Speaker 1: labels are gonna prevent you from your innovation, then I 253 00:15:32,320 --> 00:15:35,040 Speaker 1: think you have another problem that should be addressed. But 254 00:15:35,160 --> 00:15:39,320 Speaker 1: I would say follow the traditional path as far as 255 00:15:39,360 --> 00:15:41,800 Speaker 1: it you can make use of it for your own 256 00:15:41,840 --> 00:15:47,600 Speaker 1: personal advancement and benefit. But strategically, at some point you 257 00:15:47,680 --> 00:15:52,800 Speaker 1: might want to chart your own course. We'll be talking 258 00:15:52,800 --> 00:16:09,480 Speaker 1: more after we hear this add Well, I see you 259 00:16:09,520 --> 00:16:13,880 Speaker 1: at this pivotal intersection right between the broader field of mycology, 260 00:16:14,040 --> 00:16:16,200 Speaker 1: which has a lot about mushrooms that has nothing to 261 00:16:16,240 --> 00:16:19,240 Speaker 1: do with psychedelics, and then you're a fundamental figure in 262 00:16:19,240 --> 00:16:23,400 Speaker 1: the broader psychedelics area because the psilocybin mushrooms. But are 263 00:16:23,440 --> 00:16:26,640 Speaker 1: there many prominent figures in the study of mycology who 264 00:16:26,680 --> 00:16:29,920 Speaker 1: either don't try or just not interested in the psychoactive 265 00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:34,960 Speaker 1: elements of mushrooms. That was the vast majority. I remember 266 00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:37,840 Speaker 1: going to my first North American Mycological Association for a 267 00:16:38,040 --> 00:16:43,080 Speaker 1: nineteen I think seventy four seventy five. I had long 268 00:16:43,120 --> 00:16:46,000 Speaker 1: hair and long beard, and I was treated like a leper. 269 00:16:46,440 --> 00:16:49,000 Speaker 1: When I'd walk into a crowd, people would just walk 270 00:16:49,040 --> 00:16:50,760 Speaker 1: and keep a distance from me because they when they 271 00:16:50,800 --> 00:16:53,560 Speaker 1: want to be associated with me, because I was obviously 272 00:16:53,640 --> 00:16:58,280 Speaker 1: interested in paulocybin mushrooms. Thankfully, Daniel Stunts, the professor at 273 00:16:58,280 --> 00:17:01,520 Speaker 1: the University of Washington to me under his wing. And 274 00:17:01,560 --> 00:17:04,199 Speaker 1: then I met Alexander Smith, who was thought to be 275 00:17:04,240 --> 00:17:07,920 Speaker 1: the father of American mycology by many experts, and they 276 00:17:07,960 --> 00:17:11,280 Speaker 1: both said, Okay, this this guy's got a sparkle in 277 00:17:11,320 --> 00:17:14,240 Speaker 1: his eye. He's really really interested in the subject. And 278 00:17:14,280 --> 00:17:18,320 Speaker 1: so I captured their attention and got their support. So 279 00:17:18,480 --> 00:17:22,840 Speaker 1: I'm very thankful for that. But by the field of mycology, 280 00:17:22,960 --> 00:17:27,440 Speaker 1: if you were associated with paulocybin mushrooms, you were excommunicated 281 00:17:27,720 --> 00:17:30,520 Speaker 1: from not only the inner circle, but the medium circle. 282 00:17:31,000 --> 00:17:33,800 Speaker 1: It is only on the outer periphery. But to this 283 00:17:33,920 --> 00:17:36,400 Speaker 1: I imagine is evolved quite substantially. I mean, are there 284 00:17:36,440 --> 00:17:40,159 Speaker 1: still in the field study of mycology significant figures. He 285 00:17:40,240 --> 00:17:44,840 Speaker 1: showed no interest or hostility towards the psychoactive elements of 286 00:17:44,880 --> 00:17:47,880 Speaker 1: their field. You know, I've had a big influence because 287 00:17:47,880 --> 00:17:51,760 Speaker 1: of my Ted talk and you know the movie Fantastic Fungi. 288 00:17:52,680 --> 00:17:55,199 Speaker 1: You know, I've been on you know, I've been on 289 00:17:55,320 --> 00:17:58,720 Speaker 1: stage a lot of medical conferences, as you know, most 290 00:17:58,720 --> 00:18:00,600 Speaker 1: of the time the medical conference, as I've been talking 291 00:18:00,600 --> 00:18:04,800 Speaker 1: about medicinal mushrooms, not paul cybin. But even at my 292 00:18:04,920 --> 00:18:08,600 Speaker 1: Ted talks on a six million views or something. They 293 00:18:08,600 --> 00:18:10,840 Speaker 1: warned me not to talk about sulcibe mushrooms. So my 294 00:18:11,400 --> 00:18:13,840 Speaker 1: talk six six ways mushroom can help say of the world, 295 00:18:14,240 --> 00:18:16,560 Speaker 1: there's no mention of my subject that I really wanted 296 00:18:16,600 --> 00:18:18,600 Speaker 1: to talk about, right right, I mean it. This seem 297 00:18:18,640 --> 00:18:21,200 Speaker 1: like the f d A is getting more open, for example, 298 00:18:21,240 --> 00:18:23,439 Speaker 1: on the research on psilocybin mushrooms. So do you have 299 00:18:23,480 --> 00:18:25,560 Speaker 1: patents going in that area, because you know, a lot 300 00:18:25,560 --> 00:18:27,240 Speaker 1: of a lot of the criticism running the patents in 301 00:18:27,280 --> 00:18:30,360 Speaker 1: this area has been of companies seeking patents for things 302 00:18:30,359 --> 00:18:32,800 Speaker 1: which has already common knowledge, as opposed to really making 303 00:18:32,800 --> 00:18:36,120 Speaker 1: a major new contribution. Yeah, I have about ten patents 304 00:18:36,720 --> 00:18:39,880 Speaker 1: PI entering through the patent office. I discovered that if 305 00:18:39,880 --> 00:18:45,359 Speaker 1: you had niacin two psilocybin and it would enhance activity. Now, 306 00:18:45,480 --> 00:18:48,280 Speaker 1: let let's roll back the clock on this and either 307 00:18:48,359 --> 00:18:51,320 Speaker 1: you probably remember this in the seventies, it was widely 308 00:18:51,720 --> 00:18:53,919 Speaker 1: thought that if you had a bad dose in LSD 309 00:18:54,000 --> 00:18:56,959 Speaker 1: or saulcybin, you take a high dose of niacin and 310 00:18:57,000 --> 00:18:59,919 Speaker 1: you bring you down. In fact, I've recorded maybe ten 311 00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:03,240 Speaker 1: in conferences when I asked people raise their hand. The 312 00:19:03,280 --> 00:19:07,520 Speaker 1: senior psychonauts knew about this, and every conference several dozen 313 00:19:07,560 --> 00:19:10,239 Speaker 1: people raise their hand to I filmed this because its 314 00:19:10,240 --> 00:19:14,359 Speaker 1: contrary to conventional wisdom. Ironically, Johns Hopkins and many of 315 00:19:14,400 --> 00:19:17,440 Speaker 1: these other clinical studies they choose nyasin as the act 316 00:19:17,480 --> 00:19:20,439 Speaker 1: of pacebo because in about twelve to twenty minutes you 317 00:19:20,440 --> 00:19:23,760 Speaker 1: start getting hot flushes. So an act of pacebo means 318 00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:28,400 Speaker 1: well the expectancy of the patient they'll feel something. So 319 00:19:28,520 --> 00:19:30,960 Speaker 1: this is as opposed to be a neutral pacebo versus 320 00:19:30,960 --> 00:19:33,480 Speaker 1: saul cibin, where you feel is something in in you know, 321 00:19:33,480 --> 00:19:36,240 Speaker 1: twelve to twenty minutes, you have lift off. So if 322 00:19:36,320 --> 00:19:40,320 Speaker 1: it's that time parameter of an act of pacebo, ironically 323 00:19:40,359 --> 00:19:44,240 Speaker 1: they got out exactly wrong. I proposed this and came 324 00:19:44,320 --> 00:19:47,560 Speaker 1: up within two thousand and fifteen. I presented at the 325 00:19:47,560 --> 00:19:50,680 Speaker 1: MAPS conference where I think you spoke at San Francisco 326 00:19:50,760 --> 00:19:55,560 Speaker 1: two thousand and sixteen, and I proposed that combining niacin, 327 00:19:56,040 --> 00:19:59,880 Speaker 1: pul cibin, mushrooms, and Lion's name would have a synergistic 328 00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:05,399 Speaker 1: effect that is way beyond the compounded effect of the 329 00:20:05,520 --> 00:20:10,040 Speaker 1: three components. Now, I added niacin as an adversive for 330 00:20:10,160 --> 00:20:13,040 Speaker 1: micro dosing, and the idea is if you've got, you know, 331 00:20:13,359 --> 00:20:17,200 Speaker 1: one gram of slow speak ebensus at one one is 332 00:20:17,240 --> 00:20:20,160 Speaker 1: about ten milligrams and sulcabin so you have lift off 333 00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:23,320 Speaker 1: with about one gram. A tenth of a gram is 334 00:20:23,359 --> 00:20:26,439 Speaker 1: substance aium. That's the definition of a micro doce. You 335 00:20:26,440 --> 00:20:29,280 Speaker 1: cannot feel it. So the common micro docing protocols are 336 00:20:29,320 --> 00:20:32,439 Speaker 1: about tenth of a gram of slaw speak ebensus. You 337 00:20:32,520 --> 00:20:35,199 Speaker 1: feel no effect. And then I thought, well, if you're 338 00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:37,840 Speaker 1: gona do micro dosing over the counter and you had 339 00:20:37,880 --> 00:20:40,879 Speaker 1: a bottle of a hundred pills, wow, there's a lot 340 00:20:40,920 --> 00:20:43,919 Speaker 1: of trips there are people would just take ten capsules. 341 00:20:44,480 --> 00:20:46,960 Speaker 1: So by adding niacin it would be like an adversive 342 00:20:47,240 --> 00:20:51,719 Speaker 1: like ant abuse for alcoholics. And because we take niasin 343 00:20:51,800 --> 00:20:54,160 Speaker 1: for those you haven't done it. Go out and this 344 00:20:54,200 --> 00:20:56,840 Speaker 1: is perfectly safe. Take a hundred milligrams of nias and 345 00:20:57,000 --> 00:21:00,119 Speaker 1: nicotinic acid the flushing form by the way, and you'll 346 00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:04,399 Speaker 1: start itching, you'll get red, you'll your I started itching 347 00:21:04,600 --> 00:21:06,560 Speaker 1: weirdly in the bottom of my feet, in the back 348 00:21:06,600 --> 00:21:09,600 Speaker 1: of my neck, and you get beat red, and it's 349 00:21:09,840 --> 00:21:13,919 Speaker 1: very very unpleasant experience. You won't want to take that 350 00:21:14,040 --> 00:21:17,879 Speaker 1: much again. So I thought, well, by adding nice, and 351 00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:21,000 Speaker 1: it would be an adversive that I'll prevent abuse and 352 00:21:21,040 --> 00:21:24,239 Speaker 1: because as a vaso dilator, that's why it works. And 353 00:21:24,280 --> 00:21:26,440 Speaker 1: I thought, also you can excite the endpoints of the 354 00:21:26,440 --> 00:21:29,320 Speaker 1: periful nervous system, because that's where it happens when you 355 00:21:29,359 --> 00:21:32,440 Speaker 1: start itching, your end points of your nerves are excited 356 00:21:32,920 --> 00:21:36,080 Speaker 1: and their sense of So I thought vaso dilation adversive. 357 00:21:36,280 --> 00:21:39,440 Speaker 1: Exciting the endpoints of the periful nervous system. This could 358 00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:42,920 Speaker 1: make the beneficial effects of Saul Sabin and Lion's main 359 00:21:43,119 --> 00:21:45,160 Speaker 1: mushroom get to the end points of the perfil nervousm 360 00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:48,639 Speaker 1: because perifel neuropathy oftentimes presents itself to the deadening of 361 00:21:48,640 --> 00:21:52,160 Speaker 1: the fingertips and toes. So that was my whole idea. 362 00:21:52,440 --> 00:21:55,200 Speaker 1: This is a novel idea, of folks. There's no prior 363 00:21:55,320 --> 00:21:58,520 Speaker 1: art on this. This this is a true test of 364 00:21:58,560 --> 00:22:02,960 Speaker 1: patent ability and why it should be and it will 365 00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:05,560 Speaker 1: be awarded as a pattern. I came up with a 366 00:22:05,600 --> 00:22:08,159 Speaker 1: novel idea. I saw the mention this right because you 367 00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:11,280 Speaker 1: were just co author of a paper in Nature right 368 00:22:11,359 --> 00:22:14,000 Speaker 1: about microdocing, and I wonder if you could just explain, 369 00:22:14,160 --> 00:22:15,639 Speaker 1: you know, what you found there, because I think it 370 00:22:15,680 --> 00:22:18,640 Speaker 1: was the biggest study so far of microdocing, right. Yeah, 371 00:22:18,760 --> 00:22:21,200 Speaker 1: I'm really really proud of our team. You know, it's 372 00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:24,680 Speaker 1: been a team effort and we co design an app 373 00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:28,560 Speaker 1: that's available on iOS Apple devices, soon to be available 374 00:22:28,560 --> 00:22:32,200 Speaker 1: on droids. It's that micronose dot me has gone through 375 00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:35,879 Speaker 1: the ethics review boards at University of British Columbia. All 376 00:22:35,920 --> 00:22:39,680 Speaker 1: your data is protected, it's anonymized. We found the cellular 377 00:22:39,720 --> 00:22:44,560 Speaker 1: mechanism that we believe translates into the psychomotor demonstration that 378 00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:47,440 Speaker 1: micro dosing with a stack of nias and online's made 379 00:22:47,680 --> 00:22:51,560 Speaker 1: as a dramatic effect on neurological performance. I mean, this 380 00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:55,160 Speaker 1: whole thing is like, it's a beautiful, beautiful discovery. I'm 381 00:22:55,200 --> 00:22:57,439 Speaker 1: just so honored to be the shepherd of this of 382 00:22:57,520 --> 00:22:59,760 Speaker 1: this knowledge because I think it will be a paradigm 383 00:22:59,760 --> 00:23:02,840 Speaker 1: break root medicine and other researchers can walk through this 384 00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:06,800 Speaker 1: door and it just shows a combination of a natural 385 00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:11,040 Speaker 1: product and a pure In this case, we're using pure silicon. 386 00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:15,320 Speaker 1: We can legally get sulsan one milligram without a d 387 00:23:15,520 --> 00:23:18,399 Speaker 1: A license, and so silicon is the other ingredient in 388 00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:22,560 Speaker 1: psilocybin mushrooms at silocybin and soulicin both co occur and 389 00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:26,800 Speaker 1: pulocybin mushrooms. Sulcybin is a pro drug the silicon and 390 00:23:26,960 --> 00:23:32,080 Speaker 1: de posterolates and silicon crosses the blood brain barrier. Psilocybin 391 00:23:32,560 --> 00:23:35,080 Speaker 1: does not. But we got for this first paper we 392 00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:39,320 Speaker 1: published in November eight we had over eight thousand people. 393 00:23:40,080 --> 00:23:42,959 Speaker 1: And what's amazing about this easan is that we recruited 394 00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:46,639 Speaker 1: this group on micro dose dot me, so we had 395 00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:51,159 Speaker 1: a really good balanced data set to compare. Now this 396 00:23:51,240 --> 00:23:54,280 Speaker 1: is open, open label. You know, people are getting sulcibe 397 00:23:54,359 --> 00:23:58,240 Speaker 1: mushrooms illegally on the black market variability and dose variability 398 00:23:58,240 --> 00:24:01,480 Speaker 1: and potency. So the key outcome though you found in 399 00:24:01,560 --> 00:24:04,800 Speaker 1: this first paper was that micro docing looks to be 400 00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:07,680 Speaker 1: associated with lower levels of anxiety and depression. Was that 401 00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:11,240 Speaker 1: the key finding. That's the key finding, but a legitimate 402 00:24:11,359 --> 00:24:16,280 Speaker 1: argument is that could be association people who are the 403 00:24:16,680 --> 00:24:20,600 Speaker 1: motivations which we get into why are people micro docing 404 00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:25,000 Speaker 1: their micro docing to resolve their depression. They're they're micro 405 00:24:25,080 --> 00:24:29,000 Speaker 1: doocing to be more creative, to be more present. That 406 00:24:29,119 --> 00:24:34,119 Speaker 1: was an interesting metric as well. So the motivations and 407 00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:36,760 Speaker 1: the democraphics was the first paper. It was not a 408 00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:39,840 Speaker 1: cause and effect paper, so we never even said anything 409 00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:42,439 Speaker 1: about that. Some people jumped into conclusions that it was. 410 00:24:43,160 --> 00:24:46,560 Speaker 1: But our second paper, we submitted a day after our 411 00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:51,720 Speaker 1: first paper was accepted. That paper found something that's totally 412 00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:59,320 Speaker 1: bizarrely interesting, that is crazy and its implications. And basically 413 00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:05,840 Speaker 1: it says micro dosing is again associated because not at 414 00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:10,000 Speaker 1: the CBO double wine controlled study is associated with reduction 415 00:25:10,080 --> 00:25:14,760 Speaker 1: and depression, significant reduction and depression, an increase in psycho 416 00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:22,680 Speaker 1: motor response. Okay, what is a psychomotor response? See depression subjective? 417 00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:25,919 Speaker 1: And I like to say, and I think it's legit 418 00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:28,760 Speaker 1: if you're micro dosing for depression and you're best friends 419 00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:31,720 Speaker 1: of micro docing for depression and their friends are micro 420 00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:34,479 Speaker 1: dosing for depression, I'm micro dosing, you're micro docing, we're 421 00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:37,880 Speaker 1: all micro docing together. We're in a community. Expectancy, right, 422 00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:41,159 Speaker 1: that comes into play. But what Dr Pam and I 423 00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:44,720 Speaker 1: focused in on is what is something that's not subjective? 424 00:25:45,359 --> 00:25:49,119 Speaker 1: What is something that is outside of subjectivity that cannot 425 00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:51,359 Speaker 1: be related to expectancy effect or if you want to 426 00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:55,119 Speaker 1: use word of placebo. And as I mentioned forty percent 427 00:25:55,160 --> 00:25:58,320 Speaker 1: of the individuals. The second papers twelve thousand people, and 428 00:25:58,359 --> 00:26:01,240 Speaker 1: it turns out there's something called the tap test. This 429 00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:04,080 Speaker 1: is an alternating finger tests. Many of you have had this, 430 00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:07,800 Speaker 1: or you know of your friends who are family who 431 00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:12,480 Speaker 1: have Alzheimer's, Parkinson's. The traumatic brain injury is how quickly 432 00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:16,840 Speaker 1: can tap your fingers alternating ly in ten seconds? But 433 00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:21,640 Speaker 1: this is a validated tests for parkinson Alzheimer's cognitive decline. 434 00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:25,000 Speaker 1: And note to self, we're all getting older, we all 435 00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:30,760 Speaker 1: have cognitive decline, we all lose psychomotor skills. So in 436 00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:33,720 Speaker 1: our second paper, as it turns out, with a stack 437 00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:36,440 Speaker 1: of those people reporting using the stack of lions main 438 00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:41,720 Speaker 1: niacin and psilocybin micro dosing on the average of three 439 00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:45,000 Speaker 1: times a week, average of one tenth or one third 440 00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:48,440 Speaker 1: of a gram of paul cyban, there is a massive 441 00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:52,879 Speaker 1: increase in the tap test over thirty days. The tap 442 00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:56,760 Speaker 1: test metrics go from about forty three approximately taps in 443 00:26:56,800 --> 00:27:03,160 Speaker 1: ten seconds to seventy three in thirty days. That's not subjective, folks. 444 00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:06,679 Speaker 1: So we found massive increase in the tap test in 445 00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:09,600 Speaker 1: thirty days. And the age group of over the age 446 00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:12,000 Speaker 1: of fifty five that's what we really saw the signal. 447 00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:15,119 Speaker 1: It shows synergy and this is why I've hit the 448 00:27:15,160 --> 00:27:17,879 Speaker 1: freaking home run, folks I. I could not be happier. 449 00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:21,119 Speaker 1: There's also a lot of evidence of animals using and 450 00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:25,879 Speaker 1: even getting high off the psilocypic mushrooms, right, Yeah, there's 451 00:27:26,119 --> 00:27:30,000 Speaker 1: a lot of examples the ingestion of mushrooms by animals, 452 00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:34,520 Speaker 1: from insects to two bearers, to people, two dogs, to cats, 453 00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:38,600 Speaker 1: to birds. I mean as part of the food chain, folks. Um. 454 00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:44,720 Speaker 1: And you know, there's twenty three including humans primates that 455 00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:48,120 Speaker 1: are known to ingest mushrooms and they know the differences 456 00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:51,720 Speaker 1: between poisonous and edible ones. That speaks to a long 457 00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:56,880 Speaker 1: ancestral knowledge of the fact that mushrooms are good as 458 00:27:56,920 --> 00:28:00,760 Speaker 1: a nutrition or part of our food, going back millions 459 00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:05,880 Speaker 1: of years, with so many different species documented ingesting mushrooms 460 00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:10,120 Speaker 1: of as a food, and invariably they would also encounter 461 00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:13,919 Speaker 1: the pelocybin mushrooms, and some of these sulciban mushrooms, especially 462 00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:18,600 Speaker 1: in the subtropics and the tropics, are uncommonly common, all 463 00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:20,880 Speaker 1: of which kind of leads us to the Stone Day 464 00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:23,440 Speaker 1: hypothesis of Terence McKenna and I guess some of his 465 00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:26,320 Speaker 1: predecessors that I think you've been a clause. I believer 466 00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:30,160 Speaker 1: in right that the role of pilocytic mushrooms in human evolution. 467 00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:33,480 Speaker 1: You know that Terrence and Dennis mccanna came up with us, 468 00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:36,800 Speaker 1: and I was on the other side of defense making 469 00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:40,520 Speaker 1: fun of him that was a great stoner conversation. But listen, 470 00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:43,160 Speaker 1: with our cellular data that we have right now, we 471 00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:47,240 Speaker 1: can see that soul cybin and sulocybin analogs that I 472 00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:51,600 Speaker 1: just mentioned activate nerve growth receptors and code for the 473 00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:57,560 Speaker 1: regeneration and the origination of new neurons is happening. Folks. 474 00:28:58,040 --> 00:29:00,360 Speaker 1: This is about a problem that I find so warious 475 00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:04,600 Speaker 1: about this orthodox scientific community. They stand on their high 476 00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:08,719 Speaker 1: chair and they throw spears, but they are not forgiving 477 00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:14,600 Speaker 1: for those who are visionaries, who speculate, and that's imagination. 478 00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:19,440 Speaker 1: Speculation has led to the greatest innovations in the history 479 00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:24,640 Speaker 1: of science. Let's take a break here and go to 480 00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:40,040 Speaker 1: an ad well. I remember a few years ago I 481 00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:45,040 Speaker 1: read this wonderful novel by Richard powers Boll The Overstory 482 00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:47,680 Speaker 1: when the Poetzer Prize, and it was about basically almost 483 00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:50,120 Speaker 1: looking at the world through the eyes of trees in 484 00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:52,160 Speaker 1: a way, and you know, I mean, and it talked 485 00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:56,640 Speaker 1: about these elements of the networks and communications in almost community. 486 00:29:56,680 --> 00:30:01,960 Speaker 1: It's not familial existence among trees. And ibviously massilia mushrooms 487 00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:04,680 Speaker 1: fungi played this big role in this. And then I've 488 00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:08,680 Speaker 1: heard you make these analogies between the plant life and 489 00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:11,680 Speaker 1: the fungi life, and the networks and the communication and 490 00:30:11,760 --> 00:30:14,440 Speaker 1: also when we think about the networks of the Internet 491 00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:16,320 Speaker 1: and other types of neural networks, and I wonder if 492 00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:18,600 Speaker 1: you could just you know, expand on that is the 493 00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:21,440 Speaker 1: sense in which the future, you're the metaverse, and things 494 00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:24,520 Speaker 1: are learning anything from studying the fung gui. I mean, 495 00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:26,680 Speaker 1: you talk about some of the Silicon Valley innovators and 496 00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:31,160 Speaker 1: entrepreneurs and pioneers. But is there some interplay between these worlds. Well, 497 00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:33,520 Speaker 1: there are a few universal truths in nature, and I 498 00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:37,320 Speaker 1: think one of them is networks are self perpetuating. Uh, 499 00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:42,160 Speaker 1: They're agile, responding to ever changing in circumstances, you know, 500 00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:45,640 Speaker 1: at the tips of the mycelium. And we actually checked 501 00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:48,880 Speaker 1: this mathematically because I've said this in the movie Fantastic 502 00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:52,040 Speaker 1: Fungi that the breadth of my arms outstretched could have 503 00:30:52,080 --> 00:30:55,640 Speaker 1: trillions of a cross branchings and and tips. You know, 504 00:30:55,640 --> 00:30:59,600 Speaker 1: they're multinuclea. At the tips, there's multi many nuclei and 505 00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:03,480 Speaker 1: there they're testing and coding and they're responding. And if 506 00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:07,720 Speaker 1: there's a new genomic expression from epigenesis, the stimulus of 507 00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:11,600 Speaker 1: an environmental stimulus on the genome of the organism, and 508 00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:14,200 Speaker 1: it codes for a new protein that allows you to 509 00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:17,720 Speaker 1: have more food or more protection or more survival advantage. 510 00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:22,440 Speaker 1: What happens Those genes then get replicated and moreover, the 511 00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:26,520 Speaker 1: network becomes informed of this success, and so there's a 512 00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:30,800 Speaker 1: memory then going forward. And so these networks not only 513 00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:36,040 Speaker 1: vaccinate themselves, but there are massive repositories of knowledge. So networks, 514 00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:40,680 Speaker 1: I think, by their very structure are evolutionary successful. And 515 00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:43,160 Speaker 1: the invention of the computer internet, I think of the 516 00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:47,200 Speaker 1: repetition of a previously proven evolutionary successful model. We see 517 00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:49,960 Speaker 1: it with mycelium, we see it with neurons. And I'm 518 00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:53,360 Speaker 1: an amateur astronomer, so I see it in organization of 519 00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:56,280 Speaker 1: dark matter. You know, I think these are echoes on 520 00:31:56,360 --> 00:31:59,680 Speaker 1: different orders of magnitude of the same structure. So I 521 00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:03,360 Speaker 1: just think I waxed poetic in my thinking, because when 522 00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:05,560 Speaker 1: you trip on sul side mushrooms, as you well know, 523 00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:09,000 Speaker 1: you have this feeling of being in the context of 524 00:32:09,040 --> 00:32:14,200 Speaker 1: some giant consciousness. You're You're no longer just a corporeal 525 00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:18,360 Speaker 1: envelope of inside of a human shell. You're part of 526 00:32:18,520 --> 00:32:25,520 Speaker 1: this giant expanse of universal being of existence. And I 527 00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:31,400 Speaker 1: think this has increasing scientific credibility. I think nature is conscious. 528 00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:36,960 Speaker 1: I think everything in nature is conscious. We are not 529 00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:41,760 Speaker 1: as conscious as the consciousness that surrounds us. And I 530 00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:44,200 Speaker 1: think this is what these psychedelics do. And they open 531 00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:49,080 Speaker 1: up your imagination to think boldly and I will say 532 00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:52,360 Speaker 1: brilliantly in many cases. And also people can go out 533 00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:56,200 Speaker 1: way out there. I'm not saying that they can't, but uh, 534 00:32:56,320 --> 00:32:59,440 Speaker 1: you know, you like Andy Wile and some others, you know, 535 00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:02,520 Speaker 1: interesting act with the broader issues of health and wellness 536 00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:06,040 Speaker 1: and in this case mushrooms in medicine. But there's a 537 00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:08,320 Speaker 1: way in which you also a key figure in the 538 00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:11,480 Speaker 1: intersection with the environment. And I mean, so let me 539 00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:16,120 Speaker 1: just ask you about bees and mushrooms, so just elaborate. 540 00:33:16,920 --> 00:33:19,560 Speaker 1: We are Neanderthals of nuclear weapons, is how I look 541 00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:22,040 Speaker 1: at this, because I was a beekeeper and a mushroom 542 00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:25,959 Speaker 1: growert at the then intersection of those two scientific disciplines. 543 00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:30,080 Speaker 1: There's a tremendous die off of bees around the world 544 00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:32,920 Speaker 1: right now, and so I use my cilium to up 545 00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:36,320 Speaker 1: regulate the immune system of bees. We published in Nature, 546 00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:40,120 Speaker 1: I'm the primary author and Nature Scientific Reports. Ethan, You'll 547 00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:43,400 Speaker 1: love this as in the ninety nine point ninth percentile 548 00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:48,520 Speaker 1: of all articles ever published in the Nature publication ecosystem, 549 00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:51,880 Speaker 1: including Nature of Medicine, and only about seven percent of 550 00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:54,680 Speaker 1: the articles get accepted they are submitted to Nature, and 551 00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:58,600 Speaker 1: I'm in the top point one percent. So the basically 552 00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:02,000 Speaker 1: in Nature and our article one treatment with a ratime 553 00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:06,160 Speaker 1: much from mycelium extract is the mycelium folks reduced viruses 554 00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:09,440 Speaker 1: that harmbes by forty five thousand times with one treatment 555 00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:13,719 Speaker 1: and their sugar water at a one percent concentration. That's 556 00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:16,680 Speaker 1: that's one drop per hundred drops of sugar water. Sugar 557 00:34:16,680 --> 00:34:21,359 Speaker 1: water so phenomenal. So it was stated to me by 558 00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:25,320 Speaker 1: the Cornell University J Evans, who's also a co author 559 00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:27,759 Speaker 1: in our paper, and ten years he's not seen a 560 00:34:27,840 --> 00:34:33,560 Speaker 1: virus freeb. The veroa might have spread these viruses now 561 00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:38,400 Speaker 1: and they's called a worldwide pandemic and world be pollination 562 00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:41,359 Speaker 1: services are in jeopardy. So this is something I think 563 00:34:41,400 --> 00:34:44,960 Speaker 1: as a paradigm solution. We've been working with the FDA 564 00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:47,520 Speaker 1: and the U. S d A for two years because 565 00:34:47,560 --> 00:34:51,600 Speaker 1: we are not allowed to commercialize us. Now, think of this, folks. 566 00:34:52,160 --> 00:34:55,120 Speaker 1: You've got a solution that could say bio diversity, but 567 00:34:55,280 --> 00:34:59,560 Speaker 1: government regulations prevent you because bees, honey bees are considered 568 00:34:59,560 --> 00:35:02,440 Speaker 1: to be my her livestock and because their minor live stock, 569 00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:06,640 Speaker 1: the food they are allowed to consume and the allowed 570 00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:09,880 Speaker 1: to buy for your commercial bees is regulated by the government. 571 00:35:10,239 --> 00:35:13,240 Speaker 1: You can feed your family and your children more foods 572 00:35:13,239 --> 00:35:16,520 Speaker 1: than you're allowed to feed to livestock. So we've been 573 00:35:16,520 --> 00:35:18,319 Speaker 1: trying now for a year and a half going on 574 00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:21,680 Speaker 1: two years to get an exemption and a pathway forward 575 00:35:22,080 --> 00:35:26,080 Speaker 1: with the f d A. But after then continuous dialogue 576 00:35:26,200 --> 00:35:29,839 Speaker 1: back and forth, they begin to soften up and they 577 00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:32,000 Speaker 1: really see your well intended, You've got something that could 578 00:35:32,040 --> 00:35:34,959 Speaker 1: be a benefit. So so the FDA actually has given 579 00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:39,000 Speaker 1: us a road map now for approval and then we 580 00:35:39,080 --> 00:35:42,560 Speaker 1: hope to be able to have this made available now. Again, 581 00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:46,920 Speaker 1: patents are blueprints anyone who's a mushroom cultivator, who knows 582 00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:49,480 Speaker 1: how to do in virtual propagation like I do. You 583 00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:52,839 Speaker 1: can take my patent, you can grow up your own mysilium, 584 00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:55,160 Speaker 1: you can do an extract, you can feed your own bees. 585 00:35:55,520 --> 00:35:58,480 Speaker 1: It's just you cannot commercialize it. Googled you with Google 586 00:35:58,560 --> 00:36:02,319 Speaker 1: News just before this conversation here, and when you put 587 00:36:02,320 --> 00:36:05,799 Speaker 1: Paul Stamitz in there, what pops up more often than you? 588 00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:09,920 Speaker 1: Paul Stamitz is the character in the Star Trek TV 589 00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:13,520 Speaker 1: show that's named after you, right, an astro my collogist 590 00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:16,239 Speaker 1: named Paul Stamits. But then I see you have this 591 00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:19,400 Speaker 1: relationship with NASA and you have these I think a 592 00:36:19,520 --> 00:36:24,399 Speaker 1: grant or something that's looking at asteroids and mushrooms. I mean, 593 00:36:24,520 --> 00:36:28,879 Speaker 1: what's that about. I live in this remote island right now, 594 00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:32,360 Speaker 1: you know, the quarantine safe in the can British Columbia, 595 00:36:32,360 --> 00:36:34,719 Speaker 1: and I built my house in the shape and Star 596 00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:37,560 Speaker 1: Truck Enterprise. So they called me up and I'm like, 597 00:36:37,719 --> 00:36:40,279 Speaker 1: you know, I'm sitting on the Star duck of my 598 00:36:40,480 --> 00:36:43,760 Speaker 1: cabin that was built as a tribute to Star Truck Enterprise, 599 00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:46,239 Speaker 1: and you're calling me up, you know, to ask him 600 00:36:46,239 --> 00:36:48,960 Speaker 1: about this we're supposed to right the next Star Truck series. 601 00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:52,080 Speaker 1: We're searching for ideas. We saw your Ted talk, Do 602 00:36:52,120 --> 00:36:55,080 Speaker 1: you have any ideas? And I said, oh my god, 603 00:36:55,560 --> 00:36:58,360 Speaker 1: as a turn on your tape recorder and that, and 604 00:36:58,400 --> 00:37:01,480 Speaker 1: then we spent two hours and a half. The two hours, 605 00:37:01,520 --> 00:37:03,360 Speaker 1: but I said at the end, I've always wanted to 606 00:37:03,360 --> 00:37:07,640 Speaker 1: be the first astro mycologists. They said, what what would 607 00:37:07,640 --> 00:37:10,920 Speaker 1: you say as an astromycologist? And they go, we can 608 00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:13,600 Speaker 1: use that, We can use that. What's the thing with 609 00:37:13,719 --> 00:37:17,320 Speaker 1: NASA though, I mean there's some some grant proposal or 610 00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:21,760 Speaker 1: pat thing about asteroids and mushrooms. Yeah, it's a small grant, 611 00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:26,120 Speaker 1: it's only eight dollars. Is basically a proof of concept. 612 00:37:26,200 --> 00:37:29,680 Speaker 1: Can we take regularly which is basically the lunar or 613 00:37:29,719 --> 00:37:35,040 Speaker 1: asteroid mineral dust, and can we then turn it into 614 00:37:35,080 --> 00:37:39,640 Speaker 1: soil to grow plants for human habitation? With this NASA grant, 615 00:37:39,840 --> 00:37:41,880 Speaker 1: we have a what's called a white paper that we 616 00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:45,480 Speaker 1: produced and uh, two of my colleagues, you know, get 617 00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:48,840 Speaker 1: credit for doing the heavy lifting on this. We designed 618 00:37:48,840 --> 00:37:53,319 Speaker 1: the experiments together and then we found sure enough, it 619 00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:56,399 Speaker 1: looks like it's a great gateway. The implications of which 620 00:37:56,480 --> 00:38:00,000 Speaker 1: means that once human beings are living on other plans 621 00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:03,719 Speaker 1: it's or other extra tutorial spaces, that they will be 622 00:38:03,760 --> 00:38:06,480 Speaker 1: able to create their own food on these things by 623 00:38:06,560 --> 00:38:12,000 Speaker 1: using these fungi. Fungi basically munch rocks. Fungi eat rocks, 624 00:38:12,200 --> 00:38:17,160 Speaker 1: liberate minerals, associate with algae, likens form micro rosal. Fungi 625 00:38:17,200 --> 00:38:21,600 Speaker 1: pair with plants, so uh, they break down minerals and 626 00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:24,520 Speaker 1: they send it to plants, and the plants reward the 627 00:38:24,560 --> 00:38:28,919 Speaker 1: massilium um with with nutrients. It's much easier to send 628 00:38:29,040 --> 00:38:32,319 Speaker 1: seeds and spores so to Mars than it is to 629 00:38:32,680 --> 00:38:35,480 Speaker 1: carry you know, two years of food or five years 630 00:38:35,560 --> 00:38:37,160 Speaker 1: or ten years of food. So, yeah, you want to 631 00:38:37,200 --> 00:38:39,800 Speaker 1: become sustainable. Remember you said what we've running into the 632 00:38:39,800 --> 00:38:42,319 Speaker 1: phrase hemp will save the world, right, And there's an 633 00:38:42,360 --> 00:38:45,000 Speaker 1: element you know where you're out there saying mushrooms, you know, 634 00:38:45,040 --> 00:38:47,600 Speaker 1: massilian will save the world or help save the world. 635 00:38:47,760 --> 00:38:50,240 Speaker 1: I think it's true. I actually think it's true. The 636 00:38:50,280 --> 00:38:53,200 Speaker 1: evidence that we have now it's just so vast and 637 00:38:53,280 --> 00:38:57,239 Speaker 1: so deep that these massilian networks are the dominant interface 638 00:38:57,440 --> 00:39:01,840 Speaker 1: organisms that are existent funget create soils. Folks without soil, 639 00:39:01,880 --> 00:39:05,640 Speaker 1: you don't have life, so they are instrumental and there 640 00:39:05,640 --> 00:39:07,960 Speaker 1: in the production of soil. Can this sort of thing 641 00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:10,160 Speaker 1: be scaled up in a way which can address some 642 00:39:10,200 --> 00:39:13,000 Speaker 1: of the major challenges of climate change? Well, let me 643 00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:14,960 Speaker 1: put it this way. I can take a piece of 644 00:39:14,960 --> 00:39:19,919 Speaker 1: a tissue one tenth the size of your fingernail from 645 00:39:19,920 --> 00:39:23,640 Speaker 1: a mushroom, let's say an oyster mushroom, and four to 646 00:39:23,760 --> 00:39:28,000 Speaker 1: six months grow ten million pounds of mushrooms. That is 647 00:39:28,160 --> 00:39:31,680 Speaker 1: literally true. So when you look at the scalability of 648 00:39:31,840 --> 00:39:36,040 Speaker 1: the fermentation in virtual technology, the ability of you being 649 00:39:36,080 --> 00:39:40,640 Speaker 1: able to generate enough massilium to replace leather, to replace meat, 650 00:39:41,480 --> 00:39:45,680 Speaker 1: to be able to help ecosystems breakdown toxins, to be 651 00:39:45,719 --> 00:39:49,560 Speaker 1: able to grow enough soulocybin mushrooms to expand consciousness, and 652 00:39:50,120 --> 00:39:54,040 Speaker 1: I think soul cyban it will lead to humans becoming 653 00:39:54,080 --> 00:39:57,600 Speaker 1: a new species. We are not the Homo sapiens of 654 00:39:57,680 --> 00:40:00,799 Speaker 1: the past several hundred thousand years. We better not be. 655 00:40:01,280 --> 00:40:03,000 Speaker 1: There's time for us to be evolved and have a 656 00:40:03,080 --> 00:40:05,799 Speaker 1: quantum leap in the evolution of a human species. I 657 00:40:05,840 --> 00:40:10,000 Speaker 1: think psilocybin mushrooms and the use of my cilium and 658 00:40:10,080 --> 00:40:12,839 Speaker 1: all these applications that I have alluded to is a 659 00:40:12,880 --> 00:40:17,160 Speaker 1: paradigm shifting microtechnology that can literally say billions of lies 660 00:40:17,239 --> 00:40:22,320 Speaker 1: and ironically is just now being discovered. The conventional anti 661 00:40:22,560 --> 00:40:28,279 Speaker 1: mycology mindset is being de selected out of the gene pool. 662 00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:30,719 Speaker 1: Of course, there'll be a lot of starts and stops. 663 00:40:31,160 --> 00:40:34,279 Speaker 1: But there's a dozen companies now. I mean Mercedes just 664 00:40:34,320 --> 00:40:39,359 Speaker 1: announced they have my cilium leather and their new concept vehicles. Um, 665 00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:43,960 Speaker 1: there's many big alternative meat companies that have sward in 666 00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:47,319 Speaker 1: their I p O. S UM and gathering a lot 667 00:40:47,360 --> 00:40:50,480 Speaker 1: of investment money. Many of these companies will fail, a 668 00:40:50,520 --> 00:40:54,480 Speaker 1: few will succeed, but that's the cost of entrepreneurialism to 669 00:40:54,840 --> 00:40:57,640 Speaker 1: dare to be different and as you know, I have 670 00:40:57,719 --> 00:41:02,280 Speaker 1: been talking about this for forty years, another loan voice 671 00:41:02,280 --> 00:41:04,960 Speaker 1: in the woods. There are to be imaginative. And is 672 00:41:04,960 --> 00:41:08,319 Speaker 1: there a comparable fascination with this stuff in China as 673 00:41:08,360 --> 00:41:11,520 Speaker 1: there is in the West. Yeah, China is very interesting. 674 00:41:11,800 --> 00:41:16,000 Speaker 1: The long history of use of mushrooms in China as 675 00:41:16,080 --> 00:41:23,319 Speaker 1: a immutant tonic is fantastic. It's extremely well established. The 676 00:41:23,360 --> 00:41:26,799 Speaker 1: innovation that we're seeing now in a sense may have 677 00:41:26,840 --> 00:41:29,880 Speaker 1: that is my selial roots in China. But by no 678 00:41:30,120 --> 00:41:35,239 Speaker 1: means as one culture now dominate. The field of mycology 679 00:41:35,600 --> 00:41:40,000 Speaker 1: is a worldwide movement. It's a pluralistic movement, and I 680 00:41:40,040 --> 00:41:43,400 Speaker 1: think that's wonderful. Paul, I almost forgot to ask you 681 00:41:43,480 --> 00:41:45,600 Speaker 1: a question I asked me of the guests. So are 682 00:41:45,680 --> 00:41:50,440 Speaker 1: you still consuming psilocybin with some frequency? Do you experiment 683 00:41:50,480 --> 00:41:54,520 Speaker 1: among the different varieties peyote, mescal in, ayahuaska, d m T. 684 00:41:54,840 --> 00:41:56,319 Speaker 1: I mean, is this still a part of your life 685 00:41:56,360 --> 00:41:58,440 Speaker 1: in a significant way or is it more part of 686 00:41:58,480 --> 00:42:01,080 Speaker 1: your younger years. I'm six, the six years of age. 687 00:42:01,120 --> 00:42:05,120 Speaker 1: I was born in nine, and I will never be 688 00:42:05,160 --> 00:42:08,919 Speaker 1: an apologist for my use to sell saban mushrooms. They're 689 00:42:08,920 --> 00:42:12,840 Speaker 1: core to my being and who I am. I I journey, 690 00:42:13,120 --> 00:42:16,120 Speaker 1: as I say, or or trip at least once a 691 00:42:16,200 --> 00:42:20,160 Speaker 1: year with a very large dose. I do it a 692 00:42:20,280 --> 00:42:23,680 Speaker 1: very protected set and setting is very much core of 693 00:42:24,080 --> 00:42:26,960 Speaker 1: who I am and my being. And um I think 694 00:42:27,120 --> 00:42:30,879 Speaker 1: is showing medically supported evidence now that one of these 695 00:42:30,880 --> 00:42:35,720 Speaker 1: events can be life changing, infrequently used, but long term 696 00:42:35,800 --> 00:42:40,160 Speaker 1: benefits that put it outside the realm of the war 697 00:42:40,200 --> 00:42:45,399 Speaker 1: against drug narrative that was propaganda in the past. So 698 00:42:46,200 --> 00:42:50,720 Speaker 1: absolutely believe in the benefits of these set and setting. 699 00:42:51,200 --> 00:42:54,560 Speaker 1: You know, having the right person with you. Journeying by 700 00:42:54,600 --> 00:42:59,960 Speaker 1: yourself is not advisable. Having a sitter, a doctor, a therapist, 701 00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:04,000 Speaker 1: the therapeutic stunning. Of course, this is much better. But 702 00:43:04,160 --> 00:43:08,080 Speaker 1: for the people coming into this scene novo, you know 703 00:43:08,480 --> 00:43:13,200 Speaker 1: new I'm very concerned of them shopping around and trying 704 00:43:13,239 --> 00:43:16,759 Speaker 1: to find it would be leader or a guide, and 705 00:43:16,800 --> 00:43:21,759 Speaker 1: then unfortunately making a bad decision. That's a discussion for 706 00:43:21,800 --> 00:43:24,319 Speaker 1: another time perhaps. Yeah, And is there a part of 707 00:43:24,320 --> 00:43:28,040 Speaker 1: you that feels a loyalty or allegiance to psilocybin relative 708 00:43:28,239 --> 00:43:34,279 Speaker 1: to mescaline or d m T or LSD or other substances. Well, 709 00:43:34,560 --> 00:43:37,400 Speaker 1: LSD is twelve hours. Psilocybin is four to four to 710 00:43:37,520 --> 00:43:40,560 Speaker 1: six hours. That's one of the reasons why it's chose 711 00:43:40,600 --> 00:43:43,800 Speaker 1: for clinical studies, folks. It fits into an eight hour 712 00:43:44,040 --> 00:43:47,399 Speaker 1: work day for the physicians. But you personally, what about 713 00:43:47,480 --> 00:43:51,280 Speaker 1: you personally? You know, d m T is very very quick. 714 00:43:51,560 --> 00:43:55,520 Speaker 1: It's a great elevator ride. I have enjoyed it in 715 00:43:55,560 --> 00:43:59,160 Speaker 1: the past, but I don't get the message and maybe 716 00:43:59,160 --> 00:44:02,480 Speaker 1: I'm dumb. Maybe I need to have a longer exposure. 717 00:44:03,160 --> 00:44:05,440 Speaker 1: But in four to six hours, I can process a 718 00:44:05,440 --> 00:44:09,239 Speaker 1: lot in fifteen minutes to twenty minutes. I mean, I'm 719 00:44:09,239 --> 00:44:15,080 Speaker 1: holding onto my chair and going into into cyberspace, you know, 720 00:44:15,120 --> 00:44:18,759 Speaker 1: and at a high acceleration. It's wonderful and you get 721 00:44:18,760 --> 00:44:23,759 Speaker 1: into the spaciousness and dissociative destruction of the ego. But 722 00:44:23,840 --> 00:44:27,560 Speaker 1: I I don't get the time that I need to 723 00:44:27,560 --> 00:44:31,480 Speaker 1: to love myself. And this is ultimately, I think the 724 00:44:31,520 --> 00:44:35,600 Speaker 1: core of humanity is based on goodness, and I think 725 00:44:35,640 --> 00:44:39,759 Speaker 1: Saul Cybin removes all these layers that complicate self love 726 00:44:39,840 --> 00:44:42,120 Speaker 1: and understanding. If you can love yourself, then you can 727 00:44:42,160 --> 00:44:44,880 Speaker 1: love others. And I think that's the root of violence. 728 00:44:44,960 --> 00:44:48,960 Speaker 1: The root of depression is people not realizing that if 729 00:44:49,000 --> 00:44:52,279 Speaker 1: you can come to terms to love yourself, then you 730 00:44:52,320 --> 00:44:56,000 Speaker 1: can love others because you know who you are. And 731 00:44:56,040 --> 00:44:58,080 Speaker 1: the same thing that could be said of mescal in 732 00:44:58,440 --> 00:45:01,680 Speaker 1: or ayahuasca. Though right, yeah, I have not done ayahuasca 733 00:45:01,920 --> 00:45:05,799 Speaker 1: from the experiences that I've been told. Yes, the thing 734 00:45:05,800 --> 00:45:08,839 Speaker 1: about sula side mushrooms are so cool is that's really 735 00:45:08,840 --> 00:45:13,239 Speaker 1: not cultural appropriation. Hundred and sixteen species of sul side 736 00:45:13,320 --> 00:45:17,200 Speaker 1: mushrooms are known around the world. They were used in 737 00:45:17,360 --> 00:45:23,120 Speaker 1: Europe and Ireland in South America and North America. They 738 00:45:23,120 --> 00:45:26,799 Speaker 1: were used all over the world. It's not like peyote, 739 00:45:26,880 --> 00:45:31,319 Speaker 1: which I actually very protective of the peyote hunt and 740 00:45:31,320 --> 00:45:35,719 Speaker 1: the Pyote people, and that is an endangered species that 741 00:45:35,960 --> 00:45:40,080 Speaker 1: shouldn't be made available in my opinion, to the masses 742 00:45:40,680 --> 00:45:44,520 Speaker 1: because it is threatened and it is cultural appropriation because 743 00:45:44,560 --> 00:45:47,600 Speaker 1: the peyote hunt is so specific to the peoples that 744 00:45:48,040 --> 00:45:51,200 Speaker 1: that use them. On the other hand, pulcibe mushrooms like 745 00:45:51,200 --> 00:45:54,840 Speaker 1: this one professor who I want mentioned her name, but 746 00:45:54,920 --> 00:45:57,160 Speaker 1: she was very very adamant that this is a cultural 747 00:45:57,160 --> 00:46:00,759 Speaker 1: approchriation where it's stealing from the MAZA techs. And I said, 748 00:46:00,800 --> 00:46:03,200 Speaker 1: you know, I know many people who have studied with 749 00:46:03,239 --> 00:46:06,360 Speaker 1: the mass of text and I've been in correspondence with 750 00:46:06,680 --> 00:46:09,480 Speaker 1: some of the MASSA tech people as well. They don't 751 00:46:09,520 --> 00:46:13,480 Speaker 1: use lossopy commences. They use losopy zappa ta quorum, so 752 00:46:13,640 --> 00:46:18,680 Speaker 1: there's no cultural appropriation and using pelosophy cabensus when the 753 00:46:18,719 --> 00:46:21,880 Speaker 1: Masso texts have a history of disdaining solasopy cadences, they 754 00:46:21,880 --> 00:46:24,200 Speaker 1: don't want to use it. They use the slossomy zappa 755 00:46:24,239 --> 00:46:27,480 Speaker 1: ta quorum, which is indigenous to their ecosystem. So it's 756 00:46:27,480 --> 00:46:30,080 Speaker 1: a real different thing. And and this is why when 757 00:46:30,160 --> 00:46:33,359 Speaker 1: people realize that people all over the world have been 758 00:46:33,440 --> 00:46:36,520 Speaker 1: using sulcaban mushrooms and the fact that you Losinan mysteries 759 00:46:36,560 --> 00:46:40,640 Speaker 1: went from fifteen hundred b c E. The five hundred 760 00:46:40,719 --> 00:46:44,720 Speaker 1: a d. Two thousand years of use and Greek culture 761 00:46:44,760 --> 00:46:49,200 Speaker 1: of a psychoactive substance. There's deep roots in Europe and 762 00:46:49,239 --> 00:46:53,799 Speaker 1: the use of psychoactive fungi for spiritual purposes. So the 763 00:46:53,920 --> 00:46:58,759 Speaker 1: ubiquity of the common experience of soul Simon brings cultures altogether. 764 00:46:59,080 --> 00:47:02,760 Speaker 1: Of course, the Maso texts have unique knowledge. Of course, 765 00:47:03,120 --> 00:47:06,440 Speaker 1: the ancient Greeks have unique knowledge. We all have unique 766 00:47:06,440 --> 00:47:10,279 Speaker 1: cultural perspectives. But we can contribute to the greater good 767 00:47:10,640 --> 00:47:14,960 Speaker 1: by bringing our knowledge and our experiences together while at 768 00:47:14,960 --> 00:47:18,920 Speaker 1: the same time protecting indigenous knowledge. Well, Paul, I mean, 769 00:47:18,960 --> 00:47:22,919 Speaker 1: this is fascinating, a wide ranging discussion. Listen. I think 770 00:47:22,920 --> 00:47:25,920 Speaker 1: it's incredible obviously what you're doing for our listeners. Watch 771 00:47:25,960 --> 00:47:30,440 Speaker 1: the documentary Fantastic Fungi on Netflix where Paul really features 772 00:47:30,440 --> 00:47:33,560 Speaker 1: in that, and there's other documentaries about him as well. 773 00:47:33,680 --> 00:47:36,280 Speaker 1: Or his website is Paul Damas dot com, or follow 774 00:47:36,360 --> 00:47:38,960 Speaker 1: him on Facebook. Or Twitter or all these other sorts 775 00:47:38,960 --> 00:47:41,000 Speaker 1: of things with Paul, you know, I I just think 776 00:47:41,040 --> 00:47:44,240 Speaker 1: what you're you're really a revolutionary force in the world 777 00:47:44,440 --> 00:47:46,640 Speaker 1: and a revolutionary force for good. So thank you so 778 00:47:46,719 --> 00:47:50,799 Speaker 1: much for joining me on Psychoactive. Well, thank you so much. 779 00:47:50,800 --> 00:47:52,520 Speaker 1: And it's really it's not what we make in this 780 00:47:52,640 --> 00:47:56,279 Speaker 1: lifetime is a legacy that we leave. It's important for 781 00:47:56,400 --> 00:47:59,200 Speaker 1: all of us psychogonosty to create new doors that the 782 00:47:59,280 --> 00:48:02,440 Speaker 1: next generation and can walk through. We need to pass 783 00:48:02,480 --> 00:48:05,759 Speaker 1: off these keys to these new doors of knowledge. And 784 00:48:05,840 --> 00:48:09,680 Speaker 1: that's one thing that I've come to greatly appreciate and 785 00:48:09,800 --> 00:48:13,360 Speaker 1: respect is my destiny is to help others make greater 786 00:48:13,440 --> 00:48:17,600 Speaker 1: discoveries than that which I've made myself. So we're all part, 787 00:48:17,680 --> 00:48:22,359 Speaker 1: We're all part of this one giant consciousness. Well, thank 788 00:48:22,400 --> 00:48:28,520 Speaker 1: you very very much. If you're enjoying Psychoactive, please tell 789 00:48:28,520 --> 00:48:30,600 Speaker 1: your friends about it, or you can write us a 790 00:48:30,600 --> 00:48:33,759 Speaker 1: review at Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. 791 00:48:34,080 --> 00:48:36,520 Speaker 1: We love to hear from our listeners. If you'd like 792 00:48:36,640 --> 00:48:39,520 Speaker 1: to share your own stories, comments, and ideas, then leave 793 00:48:39,600 --> 00:48:43,480 Speaker 1: us a message at one eight three three seven seven 794 00:48:43,600 --> 00:48:49,520 Speaker 1: nine sixty. That's eight three three psycho zero, or you 795 00:48:49,560 --> 00:48:53,200 Speaker 1: can email us at Psychoactive at protozoa dot com or 796 00:48:53,239 --> 00:48:56,160 Speaker 1: find me on Twitter at Ethan natal Made. You can 797 00:48:56,200 --> 00:49:00,279 Speaker 1: also find contact information in our show notes. Psychoact. It 798 00:49:00,320 --> 00:49:03,640 Speaker 1: is a production of I Heart Radio and Protozoa Pictures. 799 00:49:03,760 --> 00:49:08,040 Speaker 1: It's hosted by me Ethan Naedelman's produced by Noam Osband 800 00:49:08,080 --> 00:49:12,440 Speaker 1: and Josh Stain. The executive producers are Dylan Golden, Ari Handel, 801 00:49:12,640 --> 00:49:16,840 Speaker 1: Elizabeth Geesus and Darren Aronovsky from Protozoa Pictures, Alex Williams 802 00:49:16,840 --> 00:49:20,080 Speaker 1: and Matt Frederick from My Heart Radio, and me Ethan Nadelman. 803 00:49:20,520 --> 00:49:24,320 Speaker 1: Our music is by Ari Blucien and a special thanks 804 00:49:24,400 --> 00:49:28,200 Speaker 1: to a Brio s f Bianca Grimshaw and Robert Babe. 805 00:49:38,920 --> 00:49:42,560 Speaker 1: Next week I'll be talking with Anifa Nile Washington, the 806 00:49:42,640 --> 00:49:46,960 Speaker 1: co founder of the Fireside Project, a Psychedelic Pierre support line, 807 00:49:47,400 --> 00:49:49,880 Speaker 1: and we'll also be talking about the issue of black 808 00:49:49,880 --> 00:49:54,520 Speaker 1: people and psychedelics. We feel as we move into this 809 00:49:54,840 --> 00:49:59,200 Speaker 1: next psychedelic space in history here, as we legalize and decriminalize, 810 00:49:59,320 --> 00:50:03,040 Speaker 1: we have to you have risk reduction and support. Without 811 00:50:03,200 --> 00:50:07,479 Speaker 1: risk reduction the decrim movement and legalization, it's maybe taking 812 00:50:07,480 --> 00:50:10,640 Speaker 1: a step backward or moving itself into risky spaces, and 813 00:50:10,719 --> 00:50:13,840 Speaker 1: so we also want to help to support people understand 814 00:50:13,880 --> 00:50:18,239 Speaker 1: that you know, psychedelic uses happening. Subscribe to Cycleactive now, 815 00:50:18,360 --> 00:50:19,200 Speaker 1: see it, don't miss it.