Speaker 1: Welcome to had the Money. I'm Joel, I'm Matt. Today
Speaker 1: we're talking return rabbits, double majoring, and nihilistic renters. Yeah.
Speaker 1: It's great to be back here at the Friday Flight,
Speaker 1: isn't it.
Speaker 2: It's good to have an opinion that not just your
Speaker 2: partner and kids.
Speaker 1: Want to hear. Joel. I'm sure that that's part of
Speaker 1: it for you. What was it I never want to hear?
Speaker 1: I texted you, Uh, there.
Speaker 2: Was something that hit the news like in the middle
Speaker 2: of Christmas week or something like that, and I can't
Speaker 2: remember what it was, but I think it was gift
Speaker 2: cards about gift cards, and I was just like, I'm
Speaker 2: here for you, buddy, if you can't vent on the
Speaker 2: podcast or you just want to vent to me directly,
Speaker 2: but no, this is the Friday Flight where we talk
Speaker 2: about the headlines from the past week, how they were
Speaker 2: specif going to impact your personal finances, Joel. Everybody has
Speaker 2: been like up in arms about the World Cup prices.
Speaker 2: World Cup World Cup ticket prices that will be coming
Speaker 2: here to North America this summer.
Speaker 1: Reporting events are just cheap in general, Matt, is what
Speaker 1: I found out. Yeah. Actually I went to a college
Speaker 1: game basketball game with my kids this past weekend that
Speaker 1: was affordable way and it was free, like they had
Speaker 1: free tickets to go see the female basketball. I'm taking
Speaker 1: them kids again this weekend because I guess what, I
Speaker 1: got more free tickets. And this was not because I
Speaker 1: got a hook up. This was they were widely available.
Speaker 1: Anybody could get these free tickets. But World Cup prices
Speaker 1: for not letting me know, I know, I been there
Speaker 1: with you. I thought about it after the fact fact,
Speaker 1: but the World Cup ticket prices nowhere near free. Yeah. Well,
Speaker 1: I think they released a small small amount of like
Speaker 1: sixty dollar tickets or something.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, what's like how high of elevation? Like there's
Speaker 2: literally an altimeter associated with the seats? Yeah, you get
Speaker 2: for sixty bucks.
Speaker 1: I know you've been saving up though, you because we're
Speaker 1: gonna have good memories here, are you? Are you gonna
Speaker 1: go through with it? Are you gonna buy tickets? Okay?
Speaker 2: So he it's funny that you bring that up, because
Speaker 2: that's literally a conversation Kate and I had at the
Speaker 2: end of last year beginning of this year, as we're
Speaker 2: doing budget planning, we're looking at our savings buckets, how
Speaker 2: much we either went over on some of those or
Speaker 2: how much surplus we have in them. And this is
Speaker 2: a category that I guess it was like four years ago. Yeah,
Speaker 2: listeners maybe can go back, and they're not gonna go back,
Speaker 2: but listeners might remember us talking about this and how
Speaker 2: I thought, you know what, We're gonna have some kids,
Speaker 2: and I think there's a good chance that they're going
Speaker 2: to be into soccer by the time twenty twenty six
Speaker 2: rolls around, and I want to be able to take
Speaker 2: them one, if not multiple, or you know, the whole
Speaker 2: family to see some World Cup matches. And specifically the
Speaker 2: reason for that was at that point in time four
Speaker 2: years ago, I was really into soccer and so I
Speaker 2: was going to MLS matches all the time. It is
Speaker 2: not something that I have kept up, and nor is
Speaker 2: it a sport that the kids have really taken up.
Speaker 2: I mean, there's all sorts of stuff were doing, but
Speaker 2: soccer isn't one of them. And so I actually asked
Speaker 2: Kate as we're looking at the twenty twenty six budget,
Speaker 2: and I said, hey, what do you want to do
Speaker 2: with this, because I doubt we're going to go, especially
Speaker 2: based on how expensive the prices were, because I based
Speaker 2: I based the ticket prices on the average ticket price
Speaker 2: and was it in Qatar last time, And so they
Speaker 2: published all the prices and it is significantly more than
Speaker 2: what the standard ticket was back then, and she was
Speaker 2: fine with us just rolling that into some other special
Speaker 2: occasion entertainment expense. Essentially, essentially, you're like relabeling it not
Speaker 2: World Cup, but let's just keep it earmarked for something else.
Speaker 2: So all that being said, I'm not currently at least
Speaker 2: planning to go to a World Cup match. I signed up,
Speaker 2: I created a like at the beginning because I wanted
Speaker 2: to see how much were they actually going to be
Speaker 2: for the different matches and logged in and you know,
Speaker 2: like the FIFA portal or whatever where you could where
Speaker 2: you could do that. But I was I was a
Speaker 2: little disheartened.
Speaker 1: I think of the World Cup kind of like the Olympics,
Speaker 1: and obviously like soccer specific Olympics essentially, right, because it's
Speaker 1: nations around the world competing, and how often you get
Speaker 1: it in your hometown and be really fun to go
Speaker 1: see a game, even if it's just some sort of
Speaker 1: like friendly or something ahead of time. I don't even
Speaker 1: care if I get the opportunity to go for a
Speaker 1: reasonable price. I will because I look back on the
Speaker 1: one World Series game I've been to I remember, and
Speaker 1: the one so pumped about that, and the one MLS
Speaker 1: Cup final I went to, and you know, would I've
Speaker 1: paid a thousand dollars for those tickets? No, but like
Speaker 1: when they were sub two hundred bucks, all right, okay,
Speaker 1: I'm happy to do that. So if I get access
Speaker 1: to a reasonably price ticket, I'll go. But other than that,
Speaker 1: I'm just not going to fork over a ton of
Speaker 1: money for it. I don't care enough either, but to
Speaker 1: be able to say you're there, like I know that
Speaker 1: Pelchrium played Portugal or something like that, that'd be awesome.
Speaker 1: Those tickets won't be going, No, those are going to
Speaker 1: be really I don't know much about what's how those
Speaker 1: countries are doing, but you have to watch, like Trinidad
Speaker 1: play I don't know, some some other no name country
Speaker 1: like yeah, I forget I remember reading about it, like
Speaker 1: derogatory towards Trinidad by the way, I'm sorry. No, I
Speaker 1: mean there are some countries because they've expanded the pool.
Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure, like there are some countries that have
Speaker 1: never made it before, and this is the first time
Speaker 1: they're making it. So I'm guessing those may not necessarily
Speaker 1: be the absolute best matches, but yeah, as always, you
Speaker 1: are a valuist in a similar way. If I come
Speaker 1: across an opportunity and I'm.
Speaker 2: Like, hey, for get some last minute tickets, make it,
Speaker 2: you know, make it down there to see a match
Speaker 2: that sounds like a lot of fun.
Speaker 1: But and we'll just see one last thing here. A
Speaker 1: lesson I think everybody can learn is plan ahead for
Speaker 1: really expensive stuff, and hey, you might decide you're not
Speaker 1: going to use the money for that purpose, and then
Speaker 1: you can use it for something else. Yeah, newfound wealth
Speaker 1: to use elsewhere. It's like finding a twenty in your
Speaker 1: winter jacket, but.
Speaker 2: It's way more than that, Like literally, I mean we've
Speaker 2: set aside like thousands of dollars ye.
Speaker 1: That we had earmark for that.
Speaker 2: But something else that folks are doing these days, Joel
Speaker 2: after the holidays is making all those returns, like all
Speaker 2: that crap that you don't want or that maybe you
Speaker 2: realize wasn't going to be a great gift. Most retailers
Speaker 2: are going to allow you to make those retren through
Speaker 2: the end of the month. I was recently at Whole
Speaker 2: foods making like a bulk Amazon return drop off.
Speaker 1: And they had it was like a holding pin.
Speaker 2: Life that like with the with the ropes and stuff
Speaker 2: like going down the aisle and luckily I was there
Speaker 2: when it wasn't wasn't crowded at all.
Speaker 1: Is able just to walk straight up, but I could don't.
Speaker 2: I can imagine what that was like a few days.
Speaker 1: Prior, Saturday, right after Christmas or something. Oh my gosh, Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's not the day to return. I'm find another time.
Speaker 2: But you might get charged for making some of those
Speaker 2: returns though, so keep an eye out for that. Obviously,
Speaker 2: returns are an expensive reality for a lot of retailers,
Speaker 2: and so because of that, many folks are mini companies
Speaker 2: are taking a lump out of their customers for bringing
Speaker 2: these items back. Three quarters of retailers have made their
Speaker 2: return policy less generous. So we're gonna call out a
Speaker 2: few here. TG Max Marshalls are charging twelve bucks if
Speaker 2: you make a return online instead of in store. Macy's,
Speaker 2: which I am very surprised to see is still around.
Speaker 2: I don't like, do they operate in the malls that
Speaker 2: I'm also surprised to see are still open because Macy's
Speaker 2: aren't standalone stores, so I guess these are in shopping malls.
Speaker 1: I keep wondering about the mall nearest to us. I'm like, how,
Speaker 1: what's going to happen? Yeah? Is that going to be
Speaker 1: exist in the current form?
Speaker 2: I don't know, man, But Macy's they're going to charge
Speaker 2: you ten bucks if you aren't a rewards member or
Speaker 2: an outfitters. They're also going to charge you for online returns.
Speaker 2: And I mentioned Amazon earlier, but they're kind of all
Speaker 2: over the place depending on the item, like where it
Speaker 2: is that you return it, whether you need to like
Speaker 2: package the thing up before returning it or not. But
Speaker 2: get those returns done and try not to get eaten
Speaker 2: the live buy fees in the process.
Speaker 1: Yeah. The other thing I think is we're seeing retailers
Speaker 1: offer more final sale products, and that's essentially to say, hey,
Speaker 1: we're going to give you a decent price on this
Speaker 1: piece of clothing or whatever it is, but you have
Speaker 1: no right to return it at all because we don't
Speaker 1: we don't want it back. And I think you just
Speaker 1: have to know your size, no the retailer, and have
Speaker 1: an idea at least I guess of whether you're going
Speaker 1: to be pretty happy with that item before you make
Speaker 1: the purchase, if it's final sale.
Speaker 2: Yeah, if you know your sizes and you know the
Speaker 2: company man, that's a great way. It's sort of like
Speaker 2: you with your shoes. That's a great way to take
Speaker 2: advantage of an awesome deal.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I mean, I think they're going to have to cut
Speaker 2: the prices, slashing them significantly when folks are all of
Speaker 2: a sudden pushed up against the reality of I can't
Speaker 2: make a return. Yeah, so I'm stuck with this thing,
Speaker 2: and that makes them think twice about it. That's right,
Speaker 2: and Okay.
Speaker 1: An even more extensive way to return stuff is to
Speaker 1: hire other people to do it for you. But of course,
Speaker 1: of course in modern day America, that's something you can do.
Speaker 1: Instead of packages landing on your doorstep, there's there are
Speaker 1: new companies like Return Queen that will pick those packages
Speaker 1: up from your house. You stick them back on the porch,
Speaker 1: and then they whisk them off to ups or wherever
Speaker 1: they need to make those returns.
Speaker 2: I I was a little disappointed that you didn't say
Speaker 2: return Queen like I was hoping you would say it.
Speaker 1: It's like Queen like that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'll include that but still you didn't really commit,
Speaker 2: so that doesn't count. You might have to do it
Speaker 2: one more time, and maybe we'll say that for that
Speaker 2: right next episode. Task grab it's another site where you
Speaker 2: could like hire people to do stuff for you. Those
Speaker 2: like return gigs apparently are up sixty percent on that site,
Speaker 2: according to the Wall Street Journal, and specifically, the journal
Speaker 2: found that some folks are even reaching out to moving
Speaker 2: companies for help returning heavy items.
Speaker 1: That they purchase. Hey, maybe you bought that rowing machine
Speaker 1: that Matt loves or something, and you're like, oh, I
Speaker 1: got to return it, but I'm going to break my
Speaker 1: back trying to get it in the car, and blah
Speaker 1: blah blah. People are literally reaching out to moving companies
Speaker 1: paying them to return stuff for them, which seems great.
Speaker 1: I can't imagine that's widespread, but it's a thing. And
Speaker 1: I was looking at the pricing Matt of return Queen.
Speaker 1: It doesn't seem crazy, like ten bucks for a pickup
Speaker 1: of up to like twelve packages or something like that.
Speaker 1: But of course there's a subscription you can sign up
Speaker 1: for and that's hundreds of dollars a year. But this
Speaker 1: is still an expense added right to something that it's
Speaker 1: taking another cut, just like retailers are doing. Now other
Speaker 1: places who will do the return for you are also
Speaker 1: so taking a cut. Bloomberg called it an adulting tax,
Speaker 1: which I don't know if that's accurate, because a tax
Speaker 1: is something like you're kind of forced to pay. This
Speaker 1: is something you're doing to yourself that you are choosing
Speaker 1: this is optional because you could have made the returns
Speaker 1: on your own, and you're just not getting every penny
Speaker 1: back by as you would if you made those returns
Speaker 1: on your own. But I guess the bright side of
Speaker 1: this is that it means for a lot of people
Speaker 1: they're actually going to make the returns instead of just
Speaker 1: letting that stuff I don't know, linger somewhere in the
Speaker 1: back of their closets standing in their house. This is
Speaker 1: where I kind of it's weird because you're trying to
Speaker 1: value your time, which is important, but there's this fine
Speaker 1: line between like knowing your hourly rate and farming out
Speaker 1: chores on repeat and then just kind of becoming beholden
Speaker 1: and dependent on these new services that add up over time.
Speaker 2: This convenience culture that is completely optional. And you're saying
Speaker 2: too the fact that it's not all that expensive. But
Speaker 2: you know how these new companies, these new startups work.
Speaker 2: They get their hooks in you, you get used to
Speaker 2: this new lifestyle, and then once they've got market share,
Speaker 2: they just slowly turned the screwze on you. That's how
Speaker 2: they eventually, or at least what they promised to their
Speaker 2: shareholders or new potential shareholders, how they're going to make
Speaker 2: a profit. Yeah, but all the while costing you even
Speaker 2: more money. So let's talk about student loans, because obviously,
Speaker 2: graduating with a massive student loan debt it's never been
Speaker 2: a good thing. But I feel like in this area
Speaker 2: it's worse than usual. As millions of borrowers are finding
Speaker 2: themselves behind on payments, they are falling into delinquency. And
Speaker 2: this is after a pretty long pause that we've seen
Speaker 2: basically starting with the COVID pandemic era. Those folks are
Speaker 2: going to be in for a rude awakening though. In
Speaker 2: twenty twenty six. Wage garnishment is beginning. Those notices are
Speaker 2: being sent out this week, and it's not just paychecks
Speaker 2: that could see up to a fifteen percent reduction, it's
Speaker 2: the tax refunds as well. Many borrowers are going to
Speaker 2: have their entire refund taken by the government come April,
Speaker 2: and that's also going to be a rude awakening because
Speaker 2: I think a lot I mean a lot of folks
Speaker 2: they talk about how dependent they are on that sort
Speaker 2: of cash and fusion in the spring because for what.
Speaker 1: The average tax refunds something like four thousand dollars. I
Speaker 1: want to say, like, it's a lot of money. It's
Speaker 1: a lot of money.
Speaker 2: And so obviously being in default is going to mess
Speaker 2: up your credit score, but it's going to cause other
Speaker 2: potential financial issues as well. And you know, we're not
Speaker 2: going to weigh in on the issues of fairness, but
Speaker 2: either way, the goal is to get out of student
Speaker 2: loan payment default quickly. Switching repayment plans that might be
Speaker 2: your best bet if you are having a difficult time
Speaker 2: paying every month. We'll link to the Department of Education
Speaker 2: Loan Simulator and it's got a few different options there
Speaker 2: where you can sort of see what your options might be.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you can object, by the way, if you
Speaker 1: think that the delinquency is an error. But what's I
Speaker 1: think is it five million borrowers Matt who find themselves
Speaker 1: like something like two hundred and seventy plus days behind again.
Speaker 1: I get it, the whiplash and the well, your student
Speaker 1: loans even a thing anymore? Like that's the way it
Speaker 1: felt two years ago. Yes they're a thing, and yes
Speaker 1: repayments have started. And if you find yourself by the
Speaker 1: way between a rock and a hard place with very
Speaker 1: little help from a gutted education department, well then you're
Speaker 1: gonna want to consider potentially more drastic measures. In particular,
Speaker 1: we're actually seeing more student loans being discharged via bankruptcy.
Speaker 1: A simpler process was essentially introduced under the Biden administration,
Speaker 1: and it's starting to bear fruit for some borrowers who
Speaker 1: go to court in an attempt to get their loans dismissed. Outright,
Speaker 1: it's obviously a drastic measure, but at least for some
Speaker 1: who meet what's known as the undue hardship framework, who
Speaker 1: kind of check a few different boxes and can prove
Speaker 1: basically that their student loan payment is completely unaffordable, they
Speaker 1: can have the balance essentially eradicated. This might be at
Speaker 1: least for some people who are significantly struggling, who really
Speaker 1: cannot afford to pay that student loan balance, that might
Speaker 1: be their most realistic shot at ditching it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's interesting though the quote unquote undue hardship
Speaker 2: framework is not clearly defined as to what that means.
Speaker 2: And so if you are looking to have your student
Speaker 2: loans discharged like that and bankruptcy, well, just know that
Speaker 2: it's still the wild wild West. And I wanted to
Speaker 2: mention too, if here's some.
Speaker 1: People who specialize in that, like student loan lawyers. I
Speaker 1: literally subscribe to an email newsletter of a student loan
Speaker 1: lawyer because he has such a great insight on this front.
Speaker 1: And you might find that you need the help of
Speaker 1: a professional. And even then, right, it's still not one
Speaker 1: hundred percent surefire that you're going to win. And maybe
Speaker 1: you now owe lawyer's fees and you still are your
Speaker 1: student loans, and so there's potential problem going that round
Speaker 1: as well.
Speaker 2: It takes a certain amount of insight and wisdom to know.
Speaker 2: It's not a black or white answer. Yeah, this is
Speaker 2: one where you kind of have to feel it out,
Speaker 2: and I wanted to mention, like, if you have no
Speaker 2: idea where it is that you should start. We've talked
Speaker 2: with folks from Student Loan Planner before, and we'll link
Speaker 2: to a resource in our show notes there as well,
Speaker 2: because they can help you to put together a plan
Speaker 2: and to figure out the best path forward for you
Speaker 2: as an individual to not only get out of default,
Speaker 2: but to really just be able.
Speaker 1: To tackle your student loans. That's we're spending money to
Speaker 1: hire an expert. Can save you money. Attend helps actually
Speaker 1: a lot more. Yeah, yeah, help you know that you're
Speaker 1: on the right path.
Speaker 2: Okay, So while we are talking about higher ed friend
Speaker 2: of the show, Ron Lieber, he continues to document how
Speaker 2: expensive college can be and specifically how to reduce the price,
Speaker 2: which we love hearing that, but he has detailed how
Speaker 2: hard it is to compare college.
Speaker 1: Costs ahead of time.
Speaker 2: It's you know, you're basically trying to compare apples oranges.
Speaker 2: But there is this new.
Speaker 1: Tool like opaque fruits too, Matt, like the you never
Speaker 1: even heard of, Yeah, and what is this thing? And
Speaker 1: that's because there's just so little transparency from many schools
Speaker 1: about what they offer in terms of financial aid and
Speaker 1: making that information public.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you're trying to like you're trying to compare this
Speaker 2: like ever crisp apple to this. Oh, this is a
Speaker 2: mystery fruit. I've got no idea what this even is.
Speaker 1: It's behind box number one.
Speaker 2: But he recently wrote about this new tool from a
Speaker 2: company called Niche that can help or niche depending on
Speaker 2: how you like to pronounce it. But instead of going
Speaker 2: to each college's net price calculator and in putting the
Speaker 2: information directly, it can do it for you all in
Speaker 2: one place, and then it can compare multiple schools at once,
Speaker 2: which is fantastic because Man, keeping the price of a
Speaker 2: four year degree down like it's more important than ever.
Speaker 2: It's really crucial to making it a good investment. And
Speaker 2: we'll make sure to link to.
Speaker 1: That as well. Man And we also have prior podcast
Speaker 1: conversations with people like Jocelyn Pearson who can help you
Speaker 1: wade through the looking for scholarship stuff, Like there's a
Speaker 1: lot that you can do as an individual to go
Speaker 1: out there and hunt for money where you think about
Speaker 1: the hourly rate. Matt of like my nephew who's working
Speaker 1: at a fast food chain right now, as I did
Speaker 1: like in high school, and you don't get paid a
Speaker 1: whole lot his time. An hour is worth nothing, very little,
Speaker 1: and it's probably worth actually a lot more. And I've
Speaker 1: talked about this with my sister, like, hey, what if
Speaker 1: he took a few worked a few less hours and
Speaker 1: spent those hours trying to hunt for scholarships. I like
Speaker 1: the idea of doing both because I like the idea
Speaker 1: of working in high school. But why Yeah, that's a
Speaker 1: really smart thing to I think incentivize your kids to
Speaker 1: do is to hunt for those scholarships, because if you
Speaker 1: do it in the right way, you might find that
Speaker 1: the return is significant. I love it. Also, more students
Speaker 1: are opting to double major right now in an effort
Speaker 1: to improve career opportunities. I've talked about how the job
Speaker 1: market seems a little stagnant, and especially for recent college graduates,
Speaker 1: it feels like there's or in reality, there's less hiring
Speaker 1: going on. A lot of people who just got that degree.
Speaker 1: They're like, where's my job? And they're having a lot
Speaker 1: of time. There's a lot of uncertainty right now. Yeah. Well,
Speaker 1: and the data seems to show that the double the
Speaker 1: amount of students are getting two majors these days instead
Speaker 1: of just one compared to ten years ago. Other statistics
Speaker 1: show that folks with double majors are less likely to
Speaker 1: lose their job, They're less likely to have their pay cut.
Speaker 1: So I think there's a bunch of wisdom in the
Speaker 1: choice of getting two majors instead of a major and
Speaker 1: a minor. Double majoring. It requires more effort, it requires
Speaker 1: more hours in a particular field of study. But it's
Speaker 1: possible to pull it off without spending more time at
Speaker 1: school or even forking over more money when you think
Speaker 1: about them out what a full time student is. I
Speaker 1: was talking about this with my daughter the other day.
Speaker 1: Was twelve plus hours. But in school, there's a lot
Speaker 1: of people who I knew and myself included, who were
Speaker 1: taking nineteen twenty twenty one hours in a semester. And
Speaker 1: you don't always you're not always paying per credit hour
Speaker 1: as a full time student. Oftentimes you're paying a flat
Speaker 1: tuition rate.
Speaker 2: A lot of yeah, son of universities do that and
Speaker 2: so take those extra classes, bring all that extra load.
Speaker 1: Double majoring in four years is for sure possible if
Speaker 1: you're a little more pedal to the medal, and then
Speaker 1: think about that easier to get a job, easier than
Speaker 1: to stay employed and get paid more as well.
Speaker 2: That's the big question, right, is that it's yeah, only
Speaker 2: doing it for four years, it's still possible, But I
Speaker 2: think it gets even harder for a lot of folks
Speaker 2: as they pile on the hours because of the fact that,
Speaker 2: like I remember, I mean, we'll think about AP classes too.
Speaker 2: Think about kids graduating high school. Let's say they've passed
Speaker 2: a four AP tests, they've got some of those credits.
Speaker 2: Then it's even easier for those kids.
Speaker 1: It's even easier.
Speaker 2: But like I mean, over the past decade two decades,
Speaker 2: we've seen like it was a joke to be like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 2: I'm on the five year program back when.
Speaker 1: We're in college.
Speaker 2: Like I've talked with folks, and for a lot of
Speaker 2: folks getting a four year degree, it's you can't call
Speaker 2: it a four year degree. You call it an undergrad
Speaker 2: of bachelor's and six years is the new standard. And
Speaker 2: so we have seen some of that additional undergrad creep.
Speaker 2: And so I think that's one of the big tricks too,
Speaker 2: is to make sure, Yeah, you got to find that
Speaker 2: balance between getting out of school on time. Maybe you
Speaker 2: do want to stick around, Maybe there's still some maturation
Speaker 2: that's taking place, and you're like, I don't know, I
Speaker 2: think some more time hanging out here, yes, working, yes,
Speaker 2: taking additional classes.
Speaker 1: Maybe, and maybe you've got to hone my beer pond game.
Speaker 2: Maybe it all bounces out in the end where Okay,
Speaker 2: let's say you are there only six years and you've
Speaker 2: got two degrees. I don't know, it's better than two
Speaker 2: separate four year stints where you've got I'm saying the
Speaker 2: numbers I guess could still be there even if you
Speaker 2: are extending it out to six years you've double majored.
Speaker 2: But it's certainly something to be aware of the fact
Speaker 2: that it's more likely to extend your undergrad if you
Speaker 2: were to double major and you got.
Speaker 1: To be you gotta be on top of that, you.
Speaker 2: Got to you gotta be a little more prudent and
Speaker 2: intentional with your time.
Speaker 1: I don't want to make it sound like it's easy,
Speaker 1: right that anybody can double major in four years, but
Speaker 1: I certainly think more people can and it might not
Speaker 1: have to cost a bunch of extra money or time
Speaker 1: if you're diligent. Right, that's true. All right, Slate Queen,
Speaker 1: Matt I tossed it in now return queen.
Speaker 2: That's the whole point is that you say it likes
Speaker 2: Slate Queen, but you say retainly it's okay, I screwed up.
Speaker 1: All right, we got more to get to, including We're
Speaker 1: gonna talk about President Trump's announcement about big Wall Street
Speaker 1: firms not being allowed to invest in single family homes again,
Speaker 1: what's our take on that. We'll talk about that and
Speaker 1: more right after this. All right, buddy, we are back
Speaker 1: from the break return Queen.
Speaker 2: It is now time for the ludicrous headline of the week,
Speaker 2: which is from the Washington Post. Headline reads, Abandoning home
Speaker 2: ownership may be changing how people behave at work and
Speaker 2: at home. And basically this article was about some new
Speaker 2: research based on renters who have essentially given up on
Speaker 2: the idea of owning a home. There's this new study
Speaker 2: from economists at Northwestern and University of Chicago. Real smart
Speaker 2: folks when it comes to the numbers, but they find
Speaker 2: that and this is a quote, when people conclude that
Speaker 2: they will never be able to find a home, they
Speaker 2: put less effort into their jobs. They tend to spend
Speaker 2: more on luxuries and do less long term saving. Oh
Speaker 2: and are more likely to invest in riskier assets such
Speaker 2: as cryptocurrencies. Basically, if you don't think you can buy
Speaker 2: a home, I'm just gonna roll the dice. When it
Speaker 2: comes to all these and all the other arenas of life,
Speaker 2: specifically with your personal finances. And yeah, what do you think, Joel?
Speaker 2: I mean, I get it, you know, like it's totally
Speaker 2: totally sucks. If this is the boat that you're in,
Speaker 2: I understand that it can be painful.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it makes sense to me that people
Speaker 1: would say, if I can't buy a home, then I'm
Speaker 1: going to yolo some other stuff, right, like Yola, those investments,
Speaker 1: And I'm just not even going to dedicate as much
Speaker 1: money to savings because what am I saving for If
Speaker 1: I'm a perpetual renter and I don't have a big
Speaker 1: down payment I need to amass, then screw it. But
Speaker 1: I also, I mean, I think it's a self perpetuating
Speaker 1: problem too. I think we've been in a macroeconomic time
Speaker 1: that has not been in recent years beneficial to people
Speaker 1: who want to buy a home. And we'll talk about
Speaker 1: kind of starter home single family homes in just a second.
Speaker 1: But it makes sense that people feel like, because it
Speaker 1: is harder to afford a home right now, that maybe
Speaker 1: they'll never be able to afford a home. But I
Speaker 1: also just think it's important to mention that those dynamics
Speaker 1: and shift. Yeah, policy can change, right, And so if
Speaker 1: you decide, oh, I'm probably never gonna go home, so
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna save like I might be able to
Speaker 1: at some point, You're you're doing future you a disservice,
Speaker 1: and you're almost like baking into the cake ensuring but
Speaker 1: you never will be able to buy it or guaring. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you are guaranteeing it.
Speaker 2: And essentially I feel like this study it takes more
Speaker 2: of a linear or logical approach to how these twenty
Speaker 2: thirty how are old, they are, how they're making their
Speaker 2: financial decisions. Right, It's just like, oh, I can't afford
Speaker 2: a home, therefore I will participate in these less smart,
Speaker 2: more short term focused decisions riskier too, yeah exactly when
Speaker 2: instead I think it could be a situation where maybe
Speaker 2: it's the same folks who think that way are who
Speaker 2: are focused on the short term, the near term. Those
Speaker 2: are the same folks that are saying, oh, well I can't.
Speaker 1: Afford a house.
Speaker 2: Well, it doesn't surprise me that those same folks would
Speaker 2: then say, well, yeah, I should be looking at how
Speaker 2: to maximize happiness you know today that means going out tonight,
Speaker 2: that means not saving for future me, And there's just
Speaker 2: a short termism focus to someone. If that's how you're thinking,
Speaker 2: it doesn't surprise me that it doesn't just impact how
Speaker 2: it is that you're approaching housing, but that it approaches
Speaker 2: how you perform at work, because if you are thinking
Speaker 2: more long term with your job, you're thinking, no, I
Speaker 2: need to put in the hours, the effort, the creativity
Speaker 2: that's going to allow me to advance in this company. Oh,
Speaker 2: if I want to be able to retire someday, that
Speaker 2: means I need to set aside at least ten, if
Speaker 2: not twenty percent of my ink of every single paycheck.
Speaker 1: Like there is just a.
Speaker 2: Maturation process, Like that's something we were talking about earlier.
Speaker 2: But there's something about that that causes you to think
Speaker 2: a little bit more long term beyond not just today,
Speaker 2: beyond next year, but like years and even decades down
Speaker 2: the road. Like that's the I think that's the biggest
Speaker 2: difference here.
Speaker 1: And I don't want to tell people who are renting
Speaker 1: who wants own a home, like be okay with renting forever,
Speaker 1: because I think that's not necessarily in the card. It's
Speaker 1: like you might be able to buy a home at
Speaker 1: some point.
Speaker 2: And I think you very very well can and will. Oh,
Speaker 2: and that's some point if that's something that you truly
Speaker 2: do want to.
Speaker 1: Do and if you're putting your money where your mouth is.
Speaker 1: But I also want to say for people who are renting,
Speaker 1: maybe for a time, it is actually a really good
Speaker 1: financial thing for you. Like if you utilize the difference
Speaker 1: between what you're paying in rent versus what you would
Speaker 1: be paying on a mortgage if you were to buy today,
Speaker 1: if you save that extra, like, you're gonna come out
Speaker 1: further ahead actually financially, if you are a smart renter
Speaker 1: being doing the right stuff with your money. Given kind
Speaker 1: of the disparity between rents and mortgage payments right now.
Speaker 1: Matte totally agree. But obviously one other side of the
Speaker 1: equation that has kept housing unaffordable is mortgage rates. And yeah,
Speaker 1: mortgage rates are higher, but we also kind of do
Speaker 1: this to ourselves like a self inflicted wound. Most home
Speaker 1: buyers don't shop around for a mortgage. Zillo just released
Speaker 1: statistics something two thirds of people don't shop at all.
Speaker 1: They literally just point at one mortgage lender and they're like,
Speaker 1: I'm going with you, and this cost them huge money
Speaker 1: over the life of their loan. We're talking about potentially
Speaker 1: lowering it by shopping right by with three different lenders,
Speaker 1: potentially lowering your rate by a full point, save you
Speaker 1: hundreds of dollars a month, and then tens of thousands,
Speaker 1: if not one hundred thousand dollars or more over the
Speaker 1: life of your loan. This is this is one of
Speaker 1: those things that I think, in my mind is non negotiable.
Speaker 1: We talk about shopping around for little things online. If
Speaker 1: you can save twenty bucks on a pair of jeans, cool,
Speaker 1: But shopping around for a home loan, the stakes are
Speaker 1: so much higher. So include a credit union in there,
Speaker 1: Include a mortgage broker in there, Include maybe a local bank,
Speaker 1: but just make sure you shop around, because yeah, the
Speaker 1: savings can be meaningful.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I want to circle back to what you
Speaker 2: were saying, as far as you're talking about banking, the
Speaker 2: difference between your rent and what a potential mortgage might
Speaker 2: be right, Like, you've got this, You're like, oh, great,
Speaker 2: it is more affordable to rent. How is it that
Speaker 2: I'm going to eventually be able to put down enough
Speaker 2: money to purchase a home. It's those practical steps that
Speaker 2: I think folks, if they don't, it's almost as if
Speaker 2: because there's not something immediately in front of them that
Speaker 2: they are pursuing a goal, whether it's like a vacation
Speaker 2: or a very expensive purchase. You think, well, I'm not
Speaker 2: going to want that thing we've talked recently about, like
Speaker 2: the World Cup, thing like that. That's a bucket, like
Speaker 2: a savings bucket that we have maintained because I'm thinking, oh, well,
Speaker 2: at some point we're gonna want to spend that on something.
Speaker 2: And it's something that we have slowly built up over time,
Speaker 2: like literally we add fifty bucks to it every every
Speaker 2: single month. That's what we've done over the past, like
Speaker 2: I guess four years. But I think it's important for
Speaker 2: folks to anchor the sacrifices that they're making today, those actions.
Speaker 2: They need to anchor those actions to whatever potential goal
Speaker 2: that you might have far off in the future, even
Speaker 2: when that goal isn't clearly defined. I think for a
Speaker 2: lot of folks, not having that clearly defined goal is
Speaker 2: the biggest problem because once you have like wrapped your
Speaker 2: mind around that, like, oh, I can picture myself like
Speaker 2: whatever it is that you're going to do in your
Speaker 2: new house, you know, like throwing the plane, fetch with
Speaker 2: my dog in the backyard or sitting on the front
Speaker 2: porch with my partner or inviting friends over to play
Speaker 2: corn hole in the front of I don't know whatever,
Speaker 2: like whatever it is, it's so much easier, I think
Speaker 2: for folks to say I want that, yeah, And I
Speaker 2: think the really hard part is to understand that, like
Speaker 2: you don't have a specific vision for what that might
Speaker 2: look like, but just know that it's like, I don't know,
Speaker 2: it's like right around the corner.
Speaker 1: And that's the it's hard to square that, I think
Speaker 1: for a lot of folks. There's there's also a an
Speaker 1: article about people moving to the Midwest more and more.
Speaker 1: And so sometimes if you really if that dream of
Speaker 1: home ownership is you're resolute in it, like this is
Speaker 1: something I really really want, and you live in a
Speaker 1: really high cost of living area, well, if home ownership
Speaker 1: Trump's the particular place where you live, then you might
Speaker 1: find that moving is the answer to at least part
Speaker 1: of that conundrum. True.
Speaker 2: Speaking of speaking of Trump, I know, I know you
Speaker 2: wanted to touch on something he mentioned.
Speaker 1: Let's do earlier this week, truth Truth to vout. I
Speaker 1: believe the truth Truth social the an announcement that big
Speaker 1: corporations are no longer going to be allowed to buy
Speaker 1: single family homes and rent them out. And his he
Speaker 1: basically said, people live in homes, not corporations. And Matt,
Speaker 1: you and I actually have not talked about this yet together.
Speaker 1: This is like, I think, kind of populist policy. I
Speaker 1: can get behind the giant corporations owning single family homes
Speaker 1: in greater numbers. They've led to rising rents in markets,
Speaker 1: especially where these buying, these corporate landlords have been buying
Speaker 1: in a concentrated way. It's led to a dearth of
Speaker 1: starter homes for young buyers. Companies like invitation homes. They're
Speaker 1: not great landlords either. We've seen a lot of horror
Speaker 1: stories from tenants being like, yeah, they don't prepare anything.
Speaker 1: There's mold all over the place. Some estimates show that
Speaker 1: corporations own something like four percent of the overall single
Speaker 1: family home rental stock in the country. Sounds like a
Speaker 1: small amount, but I do think the impact of this
Speaker 1: could be meaningful. But again, this is a this is
Speaker 1: a truth social this is a social media post that
Speaker 1: this will likely take an Act of Congress to make
Speaker 1: it a law, and there's no silver bullet to rising
Speaker 1: or to where home prices are right, Like, just this
Speaker 1: one thing isn't going to magically make home prices back
Speaker 1: to twenty twelve pricing affordability for people.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but it is. We are never going to get
Speaker 2: back there. Like that's the biggest difference. I mean truly,
Speaker 2: you know, like like I don't see it, but I
Speaker 2: don't see it happening. Better policy encouraging if more building
Speaker 2: combined with this could all at least help make housing
Speaker 2: more affordable for the average person.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you want me to provide my counter? Aren't sure?
Speaker 2: Because I mean, I think the biggest flaw with this
Speaker 2: is the fact that it's it's just based on such
Speaker 2: a scarcity sort of mindset, right, as opposed to the
Speaker 2: exact opposite, Like we need abundance, right, Like that's a
Speaker 2: word that we heard a ton of last year in
Speaker 2: the ability line, the ability to and oh, Derek Toomas
Speaker 2: on the show before Friend of the Show, but just
Speaker 2: the ability to loosen building restrictions and provide more supply
Speaker 2: for folks. I think that is much more of the
Speaker 2: solution as opposed to three percent or three or four
Speaker 2: percent of single family homes owned by corporations, like that
Speaker 2: is such a small amount in.
Speaker 1: Some markets were it's highly concentrated. Think like Atlanta. It's
Speaker 1: about that in Atlanta too. No, it's more like ten
Speaker 1: percent of it, is it? Really? Yeah?
Speaker 2: Okay, so let's let's say ten percent. I know that
Speaker 2: like Mama pop Landlord's own closer to like twenty years
Speaker 2: and thirty percent. So, like, if you want to make
Speaker 2: a bigger difference on the ability to free up starter
Speaker 2: homes for folks single family homes these two ones, three two's,
Speaker 2: then maybe like there should be something done about investors
Speaker 2: who are looking to purchase some of these homes to
Speaker 2: you know, further their financial position. It just it feels
Speaker 2: like populist politics as opposed to actual policy that's going
Speaker 2: to move the needle. And so in principle, just based
Speaker 2: on like theoretical how are you approaching this problem framework?
Speaker 1: I don't like it.
Speaker 2: But also of course the fact that he's just like
Speaker 2: I'm going to do this thing that's terrible politics, Like
Speaker 2: is that even constitutional. We talked about student loans earlier,
Speaker 2: the fact that previous administration said that, like we're going
Speaker 2: to cancel student loans, and.
Speaker 1: Even Speaker of the House was like.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's not constitution. We're going to do it anyway,
Speaker 2: it's the same thing, and I hate that aspect of
Speaker 2: how policy is being.
Speaker 1: Pushed forward at least. And really what you're getting at
Speaker 1: is supply side matters a lot more than trying to
Speaker 1: coerce the details control and supply, Yeah, exactly. And if
Speaker 1: we centivize more building, I think the greatest supply we
Speaker 1: see is going to lead to reduced prices, especially in
Speaker 1: some of those markets that are most desirable, which is
Speaker 1: typically where it's harder to build than anywhere else exactly.
Speaker 1: And in those cases, it's almost less about actually providing
Speaker 1: incentives and just like loosening restrictions. Yeah, it's just generally speaking,
Speaker 1: being less involved. But either way, July, I think we
Speaker 1: can both both agree that the worst kind of home
Speaker 1: buying or renting that you can do is buying a
Speaker 1: time share, right, We an agreement there pretty much. Yeah,
Speaker 1: according to Baron's time shares, they are making a comeback,
Speaker 1: but there are plenty of problems with the business model
Speaker 1: of time shares. That's the combination of high cost. It's
Speaker 1: a combination of like that with low flexibility, bad resale
Speaker 1: dynamics all added together make them pretty terrible. From a
Speaker 1: this is a place that I want to put my
Speaker 1: money and spend my time. They're incredibly hard to sell
Speaker 1: if it turns out you don't love yours.
Speaker 2: And like if you think about getting into different types
Speaker 2: of real estate and you've got an Airbnb, you've got
Speaker 2: a Verbo rental, well, the pain is much less severe
Speaker 2: if you want to unload that thing or even change
Speaker 2: how it is that you are utilizing that space.
Speaker 1: If you even talk about just renting a place, you
Speaker 1: run a place on Airbnb and it sucks, you leave
Speaker 1: a bad review and you never stay there again. But
Speaker 1: if you buy a time share and you hate it
Speaker 1: like trying to get rid of it, it's like getting
Speaker 1: an anvil off from the top of your head. Like acme.
Speaker 2: I'll talk about just from the standpoint of like, you've
Speaker 2: got a space that you've poured money into and there's
Speaker 2: options when you actually own it outright and when it
Speaker 2: is yours.
Speaker 1: But I hear what you're saying as well from a
Speaker 1: do I like the space? YEA?
Speaker 2: Like am I getting the value out of it that
Speaker 2: I have wanted to or expect it to? So obviously
Speaker 2: I'm not keen on them from a financial perspective. But
Speaker 2: if you are listening and you're still interested because of
Speaker 2: the almost immediate depreciation that a timeshare indoors. I think
Speaker 2: buying a timeshare on their resale market is definitely going
Speaker 2: to be a better way to go. And we're talking
Speaker 2: about TUG classifies, It's the Timeshare Users Group, the Kasia Redwig.
Speaker 2: These are all great resources if you're looking to get
Speaker 2: a timeshare on the cheap.
Speaker 1: Yeah, why it's spend twenty five grand on one when
Speaker 1: you can get the same thing for pennies on the dollar.
Speaker 1: Matt tails all the time. Overdraft fees got worse last year.
Speaker 1: Not shocking, Yeah, I was surprised. It is worth noting
Speaker 1: that's like every year on repeat. The big banks, though,
Speaker 1: as it turns out, they don't make massive profits from
Speaker 1: these fees. It's not like they're one of their bigger
Speaker 1: profit centers, but they still add up, and they especially
Speaker 1: hit consumers hard who are living on the margins, especially
Speaker 1: when the average overdraft fee the average is something like
Speaker 1: thirty five dollars and Matt the only big banks that
Speaker 1: lowered over you almost everybody else raised them this past
Speaker 1: year were Wells, Fargo and Truest. WHOA, let's say something
Speaker 1: nice about Wells Fargo for the first time in the
Speaker 1: history of this podcast.
Speaker 2: This might be truly the first time we've said something positive.
Speaker 2: Way to go, guys, proud of you. The best advice,
Speaker 2: per usual, is to do your banking with one of
Speaker 2: our favorite online banks. That's the assumption charge over draftees.
Speaker 2: We've even seen some of them take away over draft
Speaker 2: fees completely in recent years, Ally Discover c I, those
Speaker 2: are some of the best. They don't charge over draft fees.
Speaker 2: Do business with banks that don't hate you, and keeping
Speaker 2: enough in your account to ensure that you don't overdar
Speaker 2: your account. That's another yep, smart move. But yeah, well,
Speaker 2: I've got a little confession to make so well you
Speaker 2: specifically said Ally, and I've actually I can personally attest
Speaker 2: to the fact that Ally doesn't charge over draft fees.
Speaker 1: Do you have a recent a.
Speaker 2: Little story to share a little confession? Over the holidays,
Speaker 2: I was like, you know what, I'm going to take
Speaker 2: a serious break from email, Like I didn't even log
Speaker 2: into my email for a solid week and a half,
Speaker 2: almost two weeks, and I was in for a route
Speaker 2: awakening when I logged back in and opened my laptop
Speaker 2: and saw I was like, oh, what are these notices from,
Speaker 2: not just ally but city.
Speaker 1: Oh no, turns out.
Speaker 2: During that period of time, you know, I set I
Speaker 2: scheduled my credit card payments for later in the month
Speaker 2: at the end of the previous month, and I was
Speaker 2: not paying close attention to my say spending slash checking
Speaker 2: account there in ally, and it had dwindled dangerously low
Speaker 2: solo in fact that the last payment to one of
Speaker 2: my credit cards wasn't able to go through. And Ali
Speaker 2: sent a kind little email and they said, hey, just
Speaker 2: so you know.
Speaker 1: Interact together.
Speaker 2: We're not going to charge you, but you might want
Speaker 2: to check with the credit card issuer. And so, of
Speaker 2: course that's the first thing I did, and was not
Speaker 2: surprised to see that City hit me with a twenty
Speaker 2: nine dollars return check fee.
Speaker 1: What did I do immediately? Joel, you called masked to
Speaker 1: have it. Well, first, I sitting there on the computer.
Speaker 2: Well, it already made because there's another deposit that showed
Speaker 2: up in the account, and it automatically fulfilled because it retries.
Speaker 2: But still it doesn't erase the fact that they had
Speaker 2: tried and got denied. They don't like that, and so
Speaker 2: I fired up the chat was talking with somebody and
Speaker 2: mentioned that and they're like, nope.
Speaker 1: Sorry, not authorized to do that. And I was like,
Speaker 1: oh really.
Speaker 2: So I was like, okay, here's where you got to
Speaker 2: step up the got to raise the stakes a little bit,
Speaker 2: you know. And just I was like, well, I've been
Speaker 2: a value member for so long, this has never happened
Speaker 2: on the specific card.
Speaker 1: And a little dot starts.
Speaker 2: You know, going across the little chat bot like letting
Speaker 2: you know that they're typing something down. And basically they
Speaker 2: said that they looked into it and they actually can't
Speaker 2: do anything about that. They're not authorized. So I took
Speaker 2: it up another level, dude. I took it till like
Speaker 2: dropped it down to one. I think it's reversed, right,
Speaker 2: And I said, well that's it. I want to cancel
Speaker 2: this card. And I was shocked to see that. They said, okay,
Speaker 2: would you like us to take care of that for
Speaker 2: you today? And I was like, you gotta be kidding me.
Speaker 2: This isn't a real person, this is just a chatbot.
Speaker 2: I thought I was talking to a real person. I
Speaker 2: thought I was chatting with a real person. So maybe
Speaker 2: you got to call the one hundred all right, So
Speaker 2: that's what I did, and I was like, okay, I
Speaker 2: thought I was gonna I gotta call up the number.
Speaker 1: Lady picked up.
Speaker 2: I kindly let her know what the situation was, expecting
Speaker 2: it to be a big hassle, and she goes, sure,
Speaker 2: I'll take care of that for you right now. And
Speaker 2: I was I was shocked.
Speaker 1: I was dumbfounded. School.
Speaker 2: It took me like twenty seconds literally talking. She was like, yep,
Speaker 2: that'll show up on your statement here in three to
Speaker 2: four business days or something like that. And uh, yeah,
Speaker 2: it just goes to show for I feel like a
Speaker 2: number of years you could hop on the online chat
Speaker 2: and get fees like that reverse. But I wonder if
Speaker 2: they're starting to tighten down a little bit because everybody's
Speaker 2: using everybody was doing that, and so they're going to
Speaker 2: make you pick up the phone. But I guess the
Speaker 2: lesson is to not be afraid to talk to another human.
Speaker 2: I like it, all right, all right, good job, well done, and.
Speaker 1: Hopefully I won't run into an issue like that again
Speaker 1: in this year. That's a good lesson for everyone. One
Speaker 1: check your email a little more consistently other than every
Speaker 1: twelve days. Make sure you got enough money in there,
Speaker 1: and then hit the one eight hundred number if the
Speaker 1: chatbot's not working for you, the real customer service. All right, Matt,
Speaker 1: that's gonna do it. For this episode. We'll put links
Speaker 1: to some of the resources we mentioned up in the
Speaker 1: show notes on our site at howtomoney dot com.
Speaker 2: That's right, and that's going to be it. We'll see
Speaker 2: you back here on Monday with a fresh listener question episode.
Speaker 2: But until then, best turns out, Best Friends Out,