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Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news.

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Speaker 2: Tracy, do you think that the reason it's so hard

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Speaker 2: to buy house it's because of black Rock is buying

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Speaker 2: all that?

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Speaker 1: There's a loaded question that's like, what's that famous loaded question?

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Speaker 1: Maybe this is more well known in Britain, but the

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Speaker 1: when did you start beating your wife? Okay, okay, it's

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Speaker 1: a little different, Yeah, a little different.

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Speaker 2: When did you stop by the way, Oh I'm sorry.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, yes, that makes oh dear, this conversation has

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Speaker 1: already gone off the rails.

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Speaker 2: I did a deadlift one, Jimmy.

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Speaker 1: Okay, uh barges.

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Speaker 2: This isn't after school Special, except I've.

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Speaker 1: Decided I'm going to base my entire personality going forward

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Speaker 1: on campaigning for a strategic pork reserve in the US.

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Speaker 2: Where's the best posta?

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Speaker 1: These are the important questions robots taking over the world.

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Speaker 3: No, I think that like in a couple of years,

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Speaker 3: the AI will do a really good job of making

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Speaker 3: the Odd Lots podcast and people to say, I don't

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Speaker 3: really need to listen to Joe and Tracy anymore.

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Speaker 2: We do have touching the perfect.

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Speaker 1: You're listening to Lots more where we catch up with

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Speaker 1: friends about what's going on right now, because.

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Speaker 2: Even when the odd lots is over, there's always lots more.

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Speaker 1: And we really do have the perfect guest. Didn't we

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Speaker 1: learn that big factoid, that really interesting factoid in one

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Speaker 1: of our conversations that actually the single family institutional ownership

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Speaker 1: includes like individual landlords in addition to huge firms like Blackrock.

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Speaker 2: I just feel like, this is what I think about

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Speaker 2: all the time, TikTok macro, which is like Blackrock is

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Speaker 2: controlling all of the market. No, sorry, Blackrock is controlling

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Speaker 2: all the market. Blackstone is why you can't buy a house.

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Speaker 2: All people in Congress are insider traders. What else is there?

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Speaker 2: What else is there, Kyla in terms of TikTok and yeah,

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Speaker 2: like what are like the sort of like pillars of

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Speaker 2: like modern beliefs about how the public that?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean it's always the system is working against you, right,

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Speaker 4: I mean, I think there's so many misbeliefs about the economy.

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Speaker 4: It was just it makes it really hard to talk

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Speaker 4: about the economy. Like inflation going down doesn't mean that

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Speaker 4: prices are going I think that's a really big one.

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Speaker 4: And then the black Rock thing really takes hold. That's

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Speaker 4: very fair that's like a.

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Speaker 2: Big pillar of like how yeah, people see problems with

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Speaker 2: the economy.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, like ETFs in the world, ETFs in the world.

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Speaker 1: There's a lot, I should say. We are speaking with

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Speaker 1: Kyla Scanlon, our good friend who has just published a

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Speaker 1: new book called Fittingly. I have to say I love

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Speaker 1: this title in this Economy, How Money and Markets Really Work.

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Speaker 1: She's also a Bloomberg Opinion contributor. She's been on the

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Speaker 1: podcast before, and congrats on the book. Kylo.

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Speaker 4: Thank you. Yeah, it's super exciting.

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Speaker 2: Thank you for coming to chat with us. Oh no,

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Speaker 2: thank you all for also the creator of the word

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Speaker 2: vibe session. Yeah, just like become it is, but it

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Speaker 2: is you right, like you said it first. Yeah. No,

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Speaker 2: now everyone says it and I was like, oh, people,

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Speaker 2: JP were good. I saw that this is a vibe session.

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Speaker 4: But you created Yeah no, I did back in July

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Speaker 4: twenty twenty two. But yeah, I know other people have

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Speaker 4: taken cudit for it, which is fine. You know, No,

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Speaker 4: it's not fun, it's not it's just how.

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Speaker 1: But this is sort of the amazing thing about the

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Speaker 1: vibe session because when you first wrote about it, it

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Speaker 1: was because the hard data was still coming in relatively strong,

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Speaker 1: but all the survey data, people seemed to really really

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Speaker 1: down beat on the economy. And now a couple of

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Speaker 1: years later that's still the case more or less.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, people are still feeling really bad. I mean, I

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Speaker 4: think about the Harris Guardian poll which was like fifty

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Speaker 4: five percent of people think that or fifty six percent. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: people think that we're in ocession. Forty nine percent of

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Speaker 4: people think the stock market is down, forty nine percent

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Speaker 4: of people think unemployments at a record And it's like, man,

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Speaker 4: you know, there's an element of the vibe session that

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Speaker 4: is structural affordability issues right, like husting, crisis, elder care, childcare.

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Speaker 4: But then there is an element of the vibe session

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Speaker 4: which is media right and TikTok as we were talking

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Speaker 4: about with like the black rockets, yeah, and how it's

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Speaker 4: buying up single family homes apparently, but yeah, it's complicated.

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Speaker 2: Where do you think this comes from? So this sort

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Speaker 2: of I don't know, people talk about trust and this

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Speaker 2: sort of you know, people just not believing things that

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Speaker 2: are objective facts, the sort of deep skepticism or typathy

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Speaker 2: maybe towards large institutions or conspiratorial beliefs like where do

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Speaker 2: you think is it like a social media thing, Like

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Speaker 2: what do you think it's all about?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean I think a lot of it's information overload,

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Speaker 4: like we just have way too much going on all

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Speaker 4: of the time, and I don't think we're kind of

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Speaker 4: built to process all of that. And then just the

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Speaker 4: framing of things really can be impactful. Like if a

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Speaker 4: media headline is negative, that increases the click through rate

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Speaker 4: by two point three percent, if it's positive, it decreases

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Speaker 4: it by one point nine percent. So the incentives are

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Speaker 4: very clear there. But I also think you know, if

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Speaker 4: you're not free out, it means that you don't care.

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Speaker 4: And so I think the overall idea is that you

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Speaker 4: have to be like anxious and worried, and there are

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Speaker 4: things be anxious and worried about. But I think it's

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Speaker 4: exacerbated by the way that we engage with one another online.

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Speaker 1: What sort of engagement do you see on a platform

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Speaker 1: like TikTok, Because I feel like I'm not on TikTok,

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Speaker 1: but I am on Twitter, slash x And one rule

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Speaker 1: of social media seems to be if you say something

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Speaker 1: negative about the economy, it's almost guaranteed to get more

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Speaker 1: retweets and engagement than something that's positive or nuanced or educational.

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Speaker 1: Is that something that you experienced as well?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, I think the whole thing is doumerism

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Speaker 4: can absolutely take over. Dumers sound really smart, like if

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Speaker 4: you're like the world's ending, everyone's like that guy knows

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Speaker 4: what he's saying. And I think that that is just

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Speaker 4: a great way to sell a newsletter. And so you

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Speaker 4: see a lot of people selling newsletters by selling a narrative.

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Speaker 4: And I think it's the same on TikTok, like all

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Speaker 4: the algorithmic incentives are for you to post very negatively,

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Speaker 4: and it's hard as a creator because you know that.

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Speaker 4: But there's one of my favorite sayings right now is

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Speaker 4: nuance doesn't sell. And I think that's a big part

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Speaker 4: of what we see on social media is people feel

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Speaker 4: like they have to take a clear side on what

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Speaker 4: they're talking about.

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Speaker 2: By the way, I see your book in This Economy

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Speaker 2: number one bestseller in the Business Encyclopedia. The number two

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Speaker 2: is the audiobook version, and then three and four are

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Speaker 2: both Robert's Rules of Orders, and then five is again

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Speaker 2: is the Kindle. So congratulations on your absolute dominance of

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Speaker 2: the business Encyclopedia's category on Amazon.

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Speaker 4: Oh, thank you so much. Yeah, it's funny what they

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Speaker 4: end up categorizing you on on Amazon. It's also doing

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Speaker 4: well in the money and Monetary policy section, which is fun. Yeah. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: but I didn't know it was a business encyclopedia, so

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Speaker 4: it's good to.

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Speaker 2: Know that it is.

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Speaker 1: That's very cool. What was one of the things that

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Speaker 1: you sort of learned through writing the book? So I

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Speaker 1: was flipping through it, and first of all, I love

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Speaker 1: the little cartoons and the drawings and the diagrams. They're very,

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Speaker 1: very sweet and also very illustrative of some of the

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Speaker 1: points that you're trying to make. But I'm curious, is

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Speaker 1: there one thing that sort of stood out to you

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Speaker 1: when you were researching the book?

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Speaker 3: Oh?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean I think that for me, like there

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Speaker 4: was two things, right, like how do you structure a book?

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Speaker 4: And then what should a book be about?

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Speaker 2: And this is important for me and Tracy, by the way,

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Speaker 2: because every once in a while we talk about writing

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Speaker 2: a book. Yeah, and we're not we're close, so we're

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Speaker 2: going to listen very intensely to learn how it's done.

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Speaker 4: Well, this is how I did. I don't know what

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Speaker 4: it's done. But yeah, I learned. You know, you have

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Speaker 4: to have a flow to a book in the structure,

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Speaker 4: it really matters. Even though each chapter can be read separately,

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Speaker 4: you kind of have to tell a narrative throughout it.

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Speaker 4: And that's a little bit difficult with something as big

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Speaker 4: as the economy.

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Speaker 1: Right because your book is quite wide ranging. Yeah, it's

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Speaker 1: basically everything that you find interesting about markets and the economy.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. No, And I rewrote it three times, so the

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Speaker 4: structure of the book was it was a big one.

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Speaker 4: And then I think too, like I spend a lot

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Speaker 4: of time trying to understand the history of the economy

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Speaker 4: because I felt like that was really important to include

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Speaker 4: in some of the beginning chapters, like how did we

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Speaker 4: get here? And so the beginning of the book is

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Speaker 4: kind of like the teap history of the economy, the

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Speaker 4: economic kingdom, so the Federal Reserve Castle, the Monechechy policy Castle,

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Speaker 4: the fiscal policy inflation.

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Speaker 1: Just like the inflation pizza by the Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and all the diagrams are meant to sort of

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Speaker 4: guide people throughout the book. And I guess it's like

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Speaker 4: the biggest lesson learned for like writing an Econ book,

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Speaker 4: And it was an interesting lesson to learn as the

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Speaker 4: structure really matters, and how you guide people through something

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Speaker 4: as harry and confusing and big as the economy is important.

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Speaker 2: You say, people don't click on nuanced. They don't click,

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Speaker 2: and yet you're into nuance yourself, and so like, as

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Speaker 2: someone who has been a successful financial system educator and

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Speaker 2: now a successful author, it's apparently possible. It's apparently possible

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Speaker 2: to be successful and nuanced.

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Speaker 4: At the sometime. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think it totally is.

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Speaker 4: I just think it's much easier to be zumeristic. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: and so I think it's super important to have nuanced

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Speaker 4: because as with the economy is all about you know,

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Speaker 4: everything has an opposite and equal reaction, and it's the

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Speaker 4: same in the economy. But I think it's just easier

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Speaker 4: to tell lies.

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Speaker 2: Tracy the last So my last job, like about ten

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Speaker 2: years ago Business Insider, I sort of wrote my last

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Speaker 2: post there was about why I really like covering markets,

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Speaker 2: Like I sort of thought about the blind men touching

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Speaker 2: the elephant, except the elephant keeps moving. So not only

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Speaker 2: do you never really get the full picture, like at

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Speaker 2: any given time, by the time you think you're getting

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Speaker 2: the full picture, it's like there's still there's another way.

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Speaker 2: The elephant is already involved into a new species.

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Speaker 1: It's not easy, but you know, you know what I think, Well,

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Speaker 1: I'm not an authority on this subject by any means,

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Speaker 1: but you know what I think the solution is to

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Speaker 1: nuance is like comedy and entertainment in some respects. And

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Speaker 1: that's kind of what you've been doing on TikTok, right,

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Speaker 1: Like you make informational videos, but they're fun and engaging

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Speaker 1: to watch, and so you can still provide nuance, but

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Speaker 1: you still come out the attention of the audience because

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Speaker 1: they want to watch them.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah, that's the goal with like making, and that's

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Speaker 4: why the book has illustrations too. It's like, if you

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Speaker 4: make things fun, people are more likely to pay attention.

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Speaker 4: It's like a game of human behavior, right, And so yeah,

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Speaker 4: if you can like tell jokes about things that are

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Speaker 4: inherently kind of funny, like a lot of stuff in

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Speaker 4: the economy, even though some parts of it are very serious,

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Speaker 4: like unemployment and inflation, Like some parts of it you

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Speaker 4: can have fun with. And I try to do that

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Speaker 4: as much as I can, because I think that's how

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Speaker 4: you engage people. People who think they're outside of the economy,

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Speaker 4: within economics education, you know what.

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Speaker 2: I don't know, how did you realize what your career was? Oh? Yeah,

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Speaker 2: like you know, it's like, you know, you people tweet

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Speaker 2: and people post, and then suddenly it's like, oh, like

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Speaker 2: people listen, and this is what I do now, Like

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Speaker 2: it took me. It was not until a couple of

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Speaker 2: years of being a journalist that I realized like, oh,

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Speaker 2: I guess this is what I'm gonna be journalists. Like,

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Speaker 2: at what point did you realize that this is what

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Speaker 2: you do?

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Speaker 4: It was really around GameStop is kind of when the

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Speaker 4: video started, and then I spent probably six months being

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Speaker 4: like I don't know what's happening, and I was just

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Speaker 4: making these videos and I didn't know if anything would work.

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Speaker 4: And then I kept on writing my newsletter and then

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Speaker 4: in July twenty twenty two, the Vibe session kind of

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Speaker 4: took off. And I think that was kind of when

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Speaker 4: I was like, oh, okay, I'm saying things and people

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Speaker 4: are listening. And I had the New York Times opinion piece,

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Speaker 4: which was really awesome, and that's kind of when I

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Speaker 4: was like, oh, okay, wow, whoops.

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Speaker 1: You know, so, why do you think vibe session took

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Speaker 1: off as a term.

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Speaker 4: I think people were just really like or this has

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Speaker 4: been feedback though people have given me. I think people

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Speaker 4: were just looking for something to explain this discrepancy between

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Speaker 4: consumer sentiment and economic data. Like so many of my

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Speaker 4: conversations are about why do people feel the way that

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Speaker 4: they do, And I think the vib session word was

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Speaker 4: at least a step in the direction of addressing, you know,

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Speaker 4: why there is such a big gap and why people

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Speaker 4: were a little bit worried about why that gap existed.

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Speaker 2: Neither Tracy and I are on TikTok. Are we like

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Speaker 2: at risk of just becoming completely irrelevant? Like I don't

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Speaker 2: even use reels. All I do is like do the

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Speaker 2: podcast and post tweets and stuff. How separated am I

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Speaker 2: from actually the real world of where people, actual people

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Speaker 2: are actually getting there?

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Speaker 4: I don't know TikTok is the real world. But yeah,

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Speaker 4: I mean, I think TikTok is at risk of being

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Speaker 4: banned in the United States, but.

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Speaker 2: I don't I'm biased, but that you know, it's like, Okay.

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Speaker 1: Well that that's fine with you, That's.

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Speaker 2: Fine with me. There's level of the playing field for

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Speaker 2: me because I'm so far behind. No, But I have

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Speaker 2: no opinion on this.

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Speaker 4: But no, a lot of young people do get their

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Speaker 4: news from social media, and that's why I made my

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Speaker 4: videos on social media. It was because I was like,

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Speaker 4: this is where people are. They need information about the

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Speaker 4: economy where they are, and so that's what I set

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Speaker 4: out to do. But yeah, it's it's definitely where people

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Speaker 4: It's like the watering hole of the Internet in a

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Speaker 4: big way, but not like Twitter. Twitter is a little

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Speaker 4: bit different. It's very direct on Twitter.

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Speaker 1: You know who I blame for TikTok thing massive hole

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Speaker 1: in our consciousness show. Ironically, I kind of blame samro

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Speaker 1: because he amalgamates the best of TikTok and then posts

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Speaker 1: it on Instagram, which means I never have to go

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Speaker 1: on TikTok because he just does all the aggregation. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's a public service for sure, Kyla. I want to

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Speaker 1: talk more about like the Vibe session and where we

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Speaker 1: are in the economy now. But so inflation has been

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Speaker 1: coming down a little bit, and yet the sentiment surveys

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Speaker 1: are still coming in pretty I mean I'm generalizing here, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: they're bad. If this is a structural problem with some

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Speaker 1: of the surveys, if people are too polarized because of

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Speaker 1: the media, or if people are reflecting on the longer

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Speaker 1: term outlook and just thinking I'm never going to be

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Speaker 1: able to buy a house, or I'm never going to

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Speaker 1: be able to retire, and that's feeding into some of

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Speaker 1: the shorter term responses. Is this discrepancy ever going to

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Speaker 1: go away or is this something that we and economists

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Speaker 1: are going to have to learn to accept and kind

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Speaker 1: of analyze and digest.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, that's something I've been wrestling with quite a bit

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Speaker 4: ever since the Hairst Guardian. And you've got to take

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Speaker 4: all surveys with the grain of salt. But ever since

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Speaker 4: the Hairris Guardian survey came out where it was about

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Speaker 4: more than just vibes, like it was a clear disconnect

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Speaker 4: from reality, right, Like it was like, we're not believing

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Speaker 4: in truth, which is stock markets up, on employments, styllars,

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Speaker 4: we're not in a recession. I do think that because

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Speaker 4: of information being a playing field for foreign adversaries, that

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Speaker 4: there is more and more of an incentive to push

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Speaker 4: consumer sentiment down. People are getting their information from all

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Speaker 4: sorts of disparate sources, and so there really isn't a

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Speaker 4: cohesive way to consume information, like how you know we

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Speaker 4: used to when it was just like one cable TV show.

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Speaker 4: So I do think that sentiment will be impacted just

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Speaker 4: because of the way that we get our information now

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Speaker 4: is so confusing. But I am very optimistic that it'll improve,

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Speaker 4: but I'm not sure yet how it will. I think

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Speaker 4: it has something to do with transparency and trust and

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Speaker 4: rebuilding that. But that is a big project to undertake.

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Speaker 2: It seems like a really big project. Why can't everyone

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Speaker 2: just do what I do? Was just fire up the

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Speaker 2: Bloomberg terminal type out top and look at the most

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Speaker 2: credible selection of news stories related to business in the world.

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Speaker 2: It's easy. I never get any misinformation.

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Speaker 1: I know, don't respond. I've learned the best thing to

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Speaker 1: do is just don't respond to you.

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Speaker 2: And then you have your information. Fire hose Alt.

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Speaker 4: There's this crazy statistic about and I say that, and

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Speaker 4: it sort of refused what I'm just saying about media

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Speaker 4: being a way that people will get confused. Is like,

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Speaker 4: the average American spends like five minutes a month on

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Speaker 4: the top twenty five news sites, so people are really

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Speaker 4: just scrolling headlines, and so I think it's like all

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Speaker 4: of these things, and also I think the decline of

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Speaker 4: local papers. Everything has become very big and national and

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Speaker 4: algorithmically designed, which sounds very dumor of me, but I

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Speaker 4: think we're in a weird weird there's so much uncertainty

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Speaker 4: going into the election too. I think it's just going

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Speaker 4: to be a funky a few months.

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Speaker 1: What's your creative process like for creating the TikTok videos?

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Speaker 1: And I have to say at this point, sometimes when

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Speaker 1: I'm imagining, like the FOMC meeting around like a big

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Speaker 1: table in a poort room, I sometimes have visions of

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Speaker 1: like talking to yourself the way you do from like

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Speaker 1: different camera angles, and Jerome Powell going, I think we

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Speaker 1: should do this, and then Kyla response like, no, we

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Speaker 1: should do this anyway. That's just me.

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Speaker 4: That's so funny. Yeah, the creative process is kind of

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Speaker 4: like whatever I'm into that day on it. I get

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Speaker 4: a lot of inspiration from other videos, all sorts of

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Speaker 4: like movie makers and video creators, and that is how

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Speaker 4: the creative process is driven. What I try to do

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Speaker 4: is a multidisciplinary approach. So in the book, I have

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Speaker 4: a lot of poems in philosophy and literature, and I

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Speaker 4: feel like, that's really fun because I feel like with

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Speaker 4: economics we kind of stay in one line most of

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Speaker 4: the time, which is like money. But you can really

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Speaker 4: you can have a lot of fun just talking about

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Speaker 4: how all this stuff relates to everything else totally.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I think this is one of the things

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Speaker 2: we've learned on odd lots. There are very few topics

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Speaker 2: that can't fit in in some way, like some way, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: you just sort of realized in some way it's all

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Speaker 2: business and economics. One of the questions that people ask me, like, well,

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Speaker 2: what should I read or what should I What do

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Speaker 2: you like to consume? What's your other books that you

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Speaker 2: like a media diet or like someone said, like I

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Speaker 2: want to learn more about the economy or I want

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Speaker 2: to learn more about markets. What should I read?

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Speaker 4: What do you tell people I have a great book

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Speaker 4: you can read in this economy. But yeah, I love

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Speaker 4: reading books that aren't about the economy but like kind

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Speaker 4: of an economics angle. So I'm reading this book called

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Speaker 4: Paved Paradise right now, which is very good. It's about

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Speaker 4: parking lots and like the history of parking lots, and

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Speaker 4: that's been really fun. I feel like that's right up

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Speaker 4: your guys's alleys.

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Speaker 1: I single topics are so good.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yes, yeah, and then I just finished Cultish, which

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Speaker 4: is about like cults and how they started up. And

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Speaker 4: then I'm reading The Material World by Ed Conway and

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Speaker 4: that's been really fun. Yeah, that's that's a good one.

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Speaker 4: But yeah, I basically read everything. I read a lot

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Speaker 4: of philosophy during the pandemic, which I think a lot

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Speaker 4: of people did. And now I'm kind of on this

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Speaker 4: like real world kick where I really am obsessed with geology,

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Speaker 4: materials and stuff like that and how that can be

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Speaker 4: applied to the economy.

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Speaker 1: So you mentioned, you know, things sort of taking off

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Speaker 1: for you during game stop, and I think the last

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Speaker 1: time we had you on was to talk about meme stocks,

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Speaker 1: and maybe we did a little bit of crypto then

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Speaker 1: as well. But of course in recent weeks we have

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Speaker 1: seen the return of some meme stoks, although it seems

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Speaker 1: to have kind of gone away relatively quickly.

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Speaker 2: Recording this, it was up like twenty yesterday.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it was a lot, but like not not quite

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Speaker 1: on the scale of the first round of MEMESNIA and

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Speaker 1: it's dropped again. But what do you think is happening there?

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Speaker 4: Why?

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Speaker 1: Why does it seem to resonate, you know, even two years.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, I think rowing kitty returning probably had

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Speaker 4: something to do with it. But you know, one topic

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Speaker 4: I've thought a lot about is financial nihilism, So people

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Speaker 4: sort of not believing in markets. But I also think

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Speaker 4: like game stop is sort of fun, Like it is

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Speaker 4: a casino in the way that if you throw some

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Speaker 4: money at it, you could make a lot of money,

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Speaker 4: and so I think people view it that way. But

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Speaker 4: then I do think there's an element of financial nihilism,

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Speaker 4: which I know that you will just cover sports gambling.

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Speaker 4: I think that is maybe sort of in the same bucket. Connerson,

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Speaker 4: also from Bloomberg Opinion, has a great theory where he's like,

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Speaker 4: because millennials and young people can't buy a home, they

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Speaker 4: sort of have this extra cash that they're gonna throw

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Speaker 4: at things like GameStop and sports gambling. And I think

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Speaker 4: that all of those things are simultaneously sort of true.

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Speaker 2: Eventually somehow, you know, even the most online gen zers, like,

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Speaker 2: eventually they'll get old like we are, and eventually some

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Speaker 2: of them will own homes, and eventually some of them

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Speaker 2: will have kids. Do you think that for younger generations

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Speaker 2: they're just going to permanently see the world differently than

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Speaker 2: many other people, or do you think it's gonna be, like, know,

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Speaker 2: the constraints that inevitably happened as people will get older

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Speaker 2: and having to save pay for childcare and pay for

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Speaker 2: elder care will be a sort of forcing mechanism for

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Speaker 2: having I guess views or media diet that we sort

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Speaker 2: of see as a little bit more normy.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, I think the mean reversion I suppose

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Speaker 4: is normy. As you might say, yeah, I think that like,

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Speaker 4: as you get older, you just have more responsibilities, so

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Speaker 4: you're more likely to become more normy. To say it again,

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Speaker 4: but you know, people aren't having kids like they used to,

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Speaker 4: Like everybody knows, and you know, it's really tough to

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Speaker 4: get home. So I think that that will be something

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Speaker 4: that we see. I just think that's something that happens

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Speaker 4: over time. But it'll be interesting to see how the

434
00:20:53,440 --> 00:20:56,000
Speaker 4: gen zers move throughout the world. I wrote this piece

435
00:20:56,119 --> 00:20:59,160
Speaker 4: for Fast Company this time last year or a little

436
00:20:59,160 --> 00:21:01,720
Speaker 4: bit earlier about how gin Z thinks about work, which

437
00:21:01,760 --> 00:21:04,640
Speaker 4: is very very different like all the media terms. There yes,

438
00:21:04,640 --> 00:21:07,400
Speaker 4: a quiet quitting and all that stuff. All right, they

439
00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:10,199
Speaker 4: just had something where it was like quiet lunch or

440
00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:12,359
Speaker 4: something where people were like going to lunch and they

441
00:21:12,359 --> 00:21:14,000
Speaker 4: were like, why would you do that when you could

442
00:21:14,000 --> 00:21:17,240
Speaker 4: work for a corporation and not take lunch and just

443
00:21:17,240 --> 00:21:19,640
Speaker 4: work all day. So I think that there is more

444
00:21:19,640 --> 00:21:22,280
Speaker 4: of a desire for work life balance, and you know,

445
00:21:22,359 --> 00:21:25,840
Speaker 4: corporations don't provide perhaps the same support that they used to,

446
00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:29,000
Speaker 4: like when there was pensions and you know, more supportive

447
00:21:29,000 --> 00:21:32,200
Speaker 4: healthcare possibly. So I think it's just a totally different

448
00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:34,840
Speaker 4: relationship with work. And I don't know if that'll carry

449
00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:36,600
Speaker 4: through to the future though.

450
00:21:46,840 --> 00:21:49,439
Speaker 2: Again, Tercy and I maybe one day will write a

451
00:21:49,440 --> 00:21:52,320
Speaker 2: book ourselves. So we were curious about this whole process

452
00:21:52,359 --> 00:21:54,359
Speaker 2: and what happened. What's next for you now? So the

453
00:21:54,400 --> 00:21:57,399
Speaker 2: book just came out, came out May twenty eighth. What

454
00:21:57,520 --> 00:21:58,160
Speaker 2: happens now?

455
00:21:58,280 --> 00:21:59,399
Speaker 4: What would your book be about?

456
00:21:59,520 --> 00:22:02,360
Speaker 2: I don't know, just the problem. We can never think

457
00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:06,719
Speaker 2: of an idea. You stole an idea, oh you know,

458
00:22:07,040 --> 00:22:10,720
Speaker 2: no money, and I have no idea what it would

459
00:22:10,720 --> 00:22:11,040
Speaker 2: be about.

460
00:22:11,119 --> 00:22:12,720
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean you could just see a compilation of

461
00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:13,800
Speaker 4: all the odd episodes.

462
00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:16,640
Speaker 2: Yeah we could. We were thinking about something like oh.

463
00:22:16,560 --> 00:22:20,560
Speaker 1: Like wait, wait, wait, can we not have this on

464
00:22:20,600 --> 00:22:22,000
Speaker 1: the thing because we might actually do it.

465
00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:24,320
Speaker 2: All right, so we've thought about ideas like that, But

466
00:22:25,280 --> 00:22:27,560
Speaker 2: what's next, what happens after you write about.

467
00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:29,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, I don't know yet. It was like a really

468
00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:32,600
Speaker 4: big project for about a year, and like right now,

469
00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:35,320
Speaker 4: I'm just very interested. This is like personally, I suppose,

470
00:22:35,359 --> 00:22:37,960
Speaker 4: but I'm very interested in learning. You know, everything that

471
00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:42,160
Speaker 4: I've done has been in my bedroom. You know, it's

472
00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:45,280
Speaker 4: been like, you know, low resource. It just sort of

473
00:22:45,359 --> 00:22:48,560
Speaker 4: hacked from from zero and now I have you know,

474
00:22:48,600 --> 00:22:52,000
Speaker 4: everybody's been so supportive and kind, but I'm really curious

475
00:22:52,040 --> 00:22:55,600
Speaker 4: to explore like other mediums like radio, TV, see what

476
00:22:55,640 --> 00:22:56,080
Speaker 4: that's like.

477
00:22:56,760 --> 00:23:01,200
Speaker 1: I could see like in this Economy Netflix documentary.

478
00:23:01,359 --> 00:23:05,200
Speaker 4: Right, yeah, I'm really interested in exploring how the government works.

479
00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:07,000
Speaker 4: I feel like one theory that I had and I

480
00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:08,919
Speaker 4: didn't really explore it throughout the book is you know,

481
00:23:08,920 --> 00:23:10,800
Speaker 4: if you don't understand the system that you're in, it

482
00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:12,760
Speaker 4: it's tough to make good decisions about the system. But

483
00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:15,119
Speaker 4: you're also more likely to not trust the system if

484
00:23:15,119 --> 00:23:17,399
Speaker 4: you don't understand the complexities. And so I think a

485
00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:20,000
Speaker 4: really useful thing would be to explore the complexities of

486
00:23:20,040 --> 00:23:22,520
Speaker 4: the system. What is the US Post Office. You all

487
00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:24,720
Speaker 4: do such a good job with this with the podcast,

488
00:23:25,080 --> 00:23:27,680
Speaker 4: but I think, like really going deep into the more

489
00:23:27,720 --> 00:23:29,080
Speaker 4: government facing I think.

490
00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:31,439
Speaker 2: That's a great idea, like what do all these agencies

491
00:23:31,640 --> 00:23:34,359
Speaker 2: actually do and how they operate? The total black box?

492
00:23:34,520 --> 00:23:36,040
Speaker 2: Yeah exactly, Yeah.

493
00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:38,080
Speaker 4: And I think that leads to the distrust and the

494
00:23:38,119 --> 00:23:40,320
Speaker 4: dismay and all the stuff we've been talking about throughout

495
00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:42,919
Speaker 4: the podcast. But I would really like to explore that.

496
00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:46,399
Speaker 4: Like I'm just very fascinated by different mediums to educate

497
00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:48,640
Speaker 4: about the economy, and like it's this thing that people

498
00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:50,480
Speaker 4: think they're not a part of, but like, you know,

499
00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:52,199
Speaker 4: I got a coffee about an hour ago, and that

500
00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:54,320
Speaker 4: was like an economic transaction. I took the subway here,

501
00:23:54,440 --> 00:23:57,320
Speaker 4: that's an economic transaction. We're sitting in chairs which are

502
00:23:57,359 --> 00:23:59,960
Speaker 4: made of material and probably like put together by hand

503
00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:02,640
Speaker 4: machine and all this is like part of the economy.

504
00:24:02,840 --> 00:24:04,720
Speaker 4: And I think that the more that people can sort

505
00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:06,560
Speaker 4: of resonate with that and see themselves as part of

506
00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:09,439
Speaker 4: the economy, the better off we could be. And so

507
00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:12,119
Speaker 4: that's my soapbox on it, but I think it's important.

508
00:24:12,960 --> 00:24:15,280
Speaker 2: So I remember actually going back to game stuff and

509
00:24:15,320 --> 00:24:17,280
Speaker 2: maybe this you know gets into the nuanced thing. I

510
00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:20,679
Speaker 2: remember we did a handful of like there was a

511
00:24:20,720 --> 00:24:23,359
Speaker 2: lot of financial nihil it. You know, you mentioned the

512
00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:26,439
Speaker 2: term financial nihilism and you know, people just doing their

513
00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:28,119
Speaker 2: yolo bets and their yolo loss.

514
00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:29,960
Speaker 1: It's the lottery ticket philosophy.

515
00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:33,719
Speaker 2: There were a few people who like actually use that

516
00:24:33,800 --> 00:24:36,640
Speaker 2: moment to learn more, and like we did a few

517
00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:39,320
Speaker 2: episodes on how you know what is like gamma squeezes

518
00:24:39,359 --> 00:24:41,600
Speaker 2: and stuff, and like probably most people didn't care what

519
00:24:41,640 --> 00:24:43,640
Speaker 2: they were a handful that's like I really like want

520
00:24:43,680 --> 00:24:46,040
Speaker 2: to learn more and then actually use that moment, like

521
00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:49,280
Speaker 2: I don't understand about how you know the Greek letters

522
00:24:49,320 --> 00:24:51,760
Speaker 2: work and options of math and stuff like that. What

523
00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:54,080
Speaker 2: have you found, Like, is there like a cohort of

524
00:24:54,160 --> 00:24:57,000
Speaker 2: people that you've been able to connect with online who

525
00:24:57,160 --> 00:25:00,199
Speaker 2: like through your stuff, like have really gone deep to

526
00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:00,880
Speaker 2: these topics.

527
00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:03,600
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, I mean I get like really special messages

528
00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:06,240
Speaker 4: from people being like I majored in economics because if

529
00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:09,760
Speaker 4: you yeah, it's so kind, or like you know, I

530
00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:12,399
Speaker 4: passed an e contest because of your video on Veblin

531
00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:15,479
Speaker 4: goods and yeah, so like I don't know if that's

532
00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:17,960
Speaker 4: exactly what you're asking. But there's been a lot of

533
00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:22,000
Speaker 4: like really kind notes about how people realized, like the

534
00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:24,800
Speaker 4: economics world can be fun, that they're a part of it,

535
00:25:24,920 --> 00:25:26,560
Speaker 4: that you can understand it doesn't have to be a

536
00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:29,040
Speaker 4: bunch of charts on the screen, right, And so yeah,

537
00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:32,240
Speaker 4: and I think also game Stop kind of opened up

538
00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:35,200
Speaker 4: to people's minds to investing. Like before, when I talk

539
00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:37,280
Speaker 4: to my friends about investing, they would be like, that's

540
00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:40,160
Speaker 4: not something I'm ever interested in. But now game Stop

541
00:25:40,160 --> 00:25:42,760
Speaker 4: they're like, oh, okay, I could make like a million dollars.

542
00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:45,320
Speaker 4: But they're just more likely to be receptive to the

543
00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:49,119
Speaker 4: knowledge because game Stop streamlined so many conversations about the

544
00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:49,760
Speaker 4: stock market.

545
00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:52,800
Speaker 1: Well, this is the other thing about your content and

546
00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:56,280
Speaker 1: your approach to economics especially, is I feel like you

547
00:25:56,440 --> 00:26:01,359
Speaker 1: take into account human behavior in a way traditional economics,

548
00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:05,919
Speaker 1: with the exception of behavioralist economics, obviously doesn't necessarily do so.

549
00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:09,359
Speaker 1: In like a classical interpretation of the economy or even

550
00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:13,320
Speaker 1: the market. Stuff like GameStop isn't really supposed to happen,

551
00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:17,200
Speaker 1: and people are always supposed to act rationally and things

552
00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:20,200
Speaker 1: should eventually balance out. And yet we've seen time and

553
00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:23,480
Speaker 1: time again that the economy is, you know, the result

554
00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:28,160
Speaker 1: of individual human decisions, and sometimes it doesn't work precisely

555
00:26:28,359 --> 00:26:29,320
Speaker 1: as expected.

556
00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:33,240
Speaker 4: Yeah, humans are irrational, which kind of goes against you know,

557
00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:36,239
Speaker 4: what we think they should be, which is rational. But

558
00:26:36,520 --> 00:26:37,879
Speaker 4: I think that's what I tried to do with the

559
00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:40,280
Speaker 4: book because there's so many like brilliant economists out there,

560
00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:42,960
Speaker 4: Like this book is a consolidation. It's not Kylo's big

561
00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:45,880
Speaker 4: original ideas. It's all these other ideas from all these

562
00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:49,399
Speaker 4: other amazing economists, like Basic Economics by so you know

563
00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:51,600
Speaker 4: Economics and One Lesson by Hasli, Like all of those

564
00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:54,040
Speaker 4: books are so good, but they're so dense and like

565
00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:56,639
Speaker 4: sometimes they don't attach back to the real world. And

566
00:26:56,720 --> 00:26:58,359
Speaker 4: so what I really wanted to do with this book

567
00:26:58,440 --> 00:27:00,359
Speaker 4: was get into theory and like why stuff how happens,

568
00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:02,680
Speaker 4: but then also be like, oh, look like this soew

569
00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:05,000
Speaker 4: inflation impacts you, and this is how the living market

570
00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:08,040
Speaker 4: impacts you, and this so GDP impacts you, and here

571
00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:11,040
Speaker 4: real world examples of all of those things. And yeah,

572
00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:13,680
Speaker 4: instead of being like, here's the supply and demand graph

573
00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:15,720
Speaker 4: and that's all you get to know about, I just.

574
00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:18,560
Speaker 2: Want to say economics and one lesson is the biggest

575
00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:21,480
Speaker 2: lie there is. That's a two eighteen page book. Someone

576
00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:24,480
Speaker 2: handed me that to me when I was like in college,

577
00:27:24,560 --> 00:27:27,080
Speaker 2: Henry Haslin's book. I don't understand how they got it

578
00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:30,600
Speaker 2: with titling just marketing. Yeah, one lesson. It's a two

579
00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:33,639
Speaker 2: hundred and twenty page book. You mentioned charts. Do people

580
00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:37,600
Speaker 2: still twitch stream? And could we have a show Tracy

581
00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:39,360
Speaker 2: and I where we look at charts on the Bloomberg

582
00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:41,520
Speaker 2: terminal live on Twitch and talk about that. Would that

583
00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:41,959
Speaker 2: be a hit.

584
00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:46,800
Speaker 4: You're really innovating on show format right now. A good

585
00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:49,159
Speaker 4: app and switch. Yeah, I mean I think people just

586
00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:51,679
Speaker 4: like to watch people talk about stuff. Okay, that's like

587
00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:54,080
Speaker 4: my big theory. Like I think people love watching podcasts

588
00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:56,200
Speaker 4: because it kind of feels like you're just hanging out.

589
00:27:56,480 --> 00:27:58,080
Speaker 4: So I think you all could definitely get on Twitch

590
00:27:58,119 --> 00:28:01,199
Speaker 4: and stream some charts and show people Bloomberg terminal that.

591
00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:03,280
Speaker 1: You gotta do like competitive charting?

592
00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:05,440
Speaker 4: Yeah? Should competitive?

593
00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:08,520
Speaker 2: Someone could say, like housing and then we raised to

594
00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:10,520
Speaker 2: see you the most interesting housing chart.

595
00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:11,960
Speaker 1: That be fun?

596
00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:12,800
Speaker 4: I like to be fun.

597
00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:20,919
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh. Lots more is produced by Carmen Rodriguez

598
00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:23,400
Speaker 1: and dash Ell Bennett, with help from Moses ONAM and

599
00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:24,240
Speaker 1: Cal Brooks.

600
00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:27,600
Speaker 2: Our sound engineer is Blake Maple's Sage Bauman is the

601
00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:29,040
Speaker 2: head of Bloomberg Podcasts.

602
00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:33,159
Speaker 1: Please rate, review, and subscribe to Odd, Lots and Lots

603
00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:36,199
Speaker 1: More on your favorite podcast platforms.

604
00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:38,960
Speaker 2: And remember the Bloomberg. Subscribers can listen to all of

605
00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:42,840
Speaker 2: our podcasts add free by connecting through Apple Podcasts. Thanks

606
00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:43,400
Speaker 2: for listening.