Speaker 1: Hey, fam, I'm Jada Pinkett Smith and this is the
Speaker 1: Red Table Pop podcast, all your favorite episodes from the
Speaker 1: Facebook watch show in audio produced by Westbrook Audio and
Speaker 1: I Heart Radio. Please don't forget to rate and review
Speaker 1: on Apple Podcasts. Forgiveness is a deeply personal journey. My
Speaker 1: brother Caleb is here at the Red Table. Now. We
Speaker 1: grew up with different mothers and on opposite coasts, but
Speaker 1: our father is a shared source of pain. It's about
Speaker 1: finding forgiveness for the man who gave us both life
Speaker 1: and also hurt us the most. Yes, oh, I love it.
Speaker 1: You know I love family, my brother, your uncle, Caleb. Welcome, well,
Speaker 1: thank you for having me. So today we're talking about forgiveness,
Speaker 1: and my brother and I will be talking about forgiveness
Speaker 1: of a parent. Um and I know that you too
Speaker 1: have your forgiveness is yeah to talk about, but I
Speaker 1: think we're also going to talk about forgiveness of the
Speaker 1: self as well, which is the hardest one, which I
Speaker 1: think is which I think is actually the truth is
Speaker 1: it's the only one. Our father, ROBSL. Pinkett Jr. Struggled
Speaker 1: with drugs and alcohol his entire life. He was not
Speaker 1: a part of our childhood and we were forced to
Speaker 1: grow up without him. When Rob died from an overdose,
Speaker 1: we would left having to reconcile our feelings and find
Speaker 1: forgiveness on our own. Let's tell the story of Robson
Speaker 1: all right. So my father and my mother, they they
Speaker 1: divorced when I was two years old. He didn't raise me.
Speaker 1: So when you don't raise a child, you really leaving
Speaker 1: your child to the quote on quote wolves right, which
Speaker 1: is horrific, especially when the child cannot protect itself. Yet
Speaker 1: I'm never I'll never forget this. So the first time
Speaker 1: I met my father, I was twelve years old. I
Speaker 1: was able to go to Baltimore, but I had to
Speaker 1: stay with my grandmother. And he explained addiction, and he
Speaker 1: said I was an addict. He know, He said, I
Speaker 1: still amn't at it. He said, I'm recovering. So I
Speaker 1: would go to his a A meetings. He would take
Speaker 1: me everywhere with him, so I developed a really strong
Speaker 1: affinity for him. But while he was sober, there was
Speaker 1: another thing he did. He adopted a young girl. So
Speaker 1: we haven't adopted sister, and that was that was a
Speaker 1: little jolting for me. The idea that I had a
Speaker 1: father that adopted you didn't raise me, but then he
Speaker 1: chose to take on something that he didn't raise. You
Speaker 1: didn't raise his first child. He wasn't there for us
Speaker 1: as children. He struggled with addiction. He was clean for
Speaker 1: how many years? Even years about that he fell off
Speaker 1: the wagon. You called me. We brought him out here
Speaker 1: and he was out here for three years. He got clean.
Speaker 1: He was clean during that time, and then he fell off,
Speaker 1: and then he fell off again, and then he died
Speaker 1: from an overdose. Okay, what did you feel like you
Speaker 1: had to forgive rob oh Man him not not not
Speaker 1: in there for you as a father, right, not not
Speaker 1: being there. But here's what I mean about forgiveness of
Speaker 1: self and really happen to dive into you. I realized
Speaker 1: that my father is dead and gone. Any issue, any
Speaker 1: problem is gone for him. So that means who's left
Speaker 1: in the equation. So it's like it's it's about it's
Speaker 1: about me. But he told me, you know, I'd rather
Speaker 1: get hied and be your father. Like that's hardcore when
Speaker 1: he said, but there was a reason behind it for him,
Speaker 1: and his reason was I was sick and what felt
Speaker 1: like he was protected you. I mean that's what he
Speaker 1: told me at seven. Yeah, I can't be your father.
Speaker 1: I'm a criminal, I'm an addict, and that's just what
Speaker 1: it is. Dang. Yeah, wow, what for you was the
Speaker 1: pain of not having your father there. So we're we're
Speaker 1: now adults now and I'm living in l A, I'm
Speaker 1: working in my father decides he's going to relapse. I'm
Speaker 1: at home. I'm never I'll never forget this. It's not funny,
Speaker 1: but it's funny because my dad was real. I called him,
Speaker 1: I said Dad, he said hey, bo. I said, are
Speaker 1: you okay? He said, yeah, get the fight today, son.
Speaker 1: I said, oh no. I called Jade. I said, Ja,
Speaker 1: we got to bring him out. She was like, I
Speaker 1: said yeah. She was like, oh man. You know. I
Speaker 1: was like, Caleb, I don't want to, like, this is
Speaker 1: our father, and I just like Jada, we have to,
Speaker 1: I say, because he's gonna die if we don't do it.
Speaker 1: So there was a lot of resentment and there was
Speaker 1: anger there. We both had a lot of resentment. We
Speaker 1: had that feeling like we had to be responsible for him,
Speaker 1: but he never had to be responsible for us. And
Speaker 1: that was that was a hard pill for the attitude
Speaker 1: that you guys owed him or something. Yeah. The issue
Speaker 1: for me was when I got into the position that
Speaker 1: I got in and then he wanted to have a relationship.
Speaker 1: That hurt me absolutely. So when he died from that overdose,
Speaker 1: I got the call from Caleb, And the most difficult
Speaker 1: part of him dying like that is because he and
Speaker 1: I had had a horrendous fight. When I found out
Speaker 1: that he relapsed. I was like, I don't owe you nothing.
Speaker 1: You didn't do for me, you didn't do for Caleb.
Speaker 1: I don't owe you nothing. It was one of us.
Speaker 1: I had the same conversation with him. I was furious
Speaker 1: and he told me that's what the diseases like, this
Speaker 1: is who I am. And that was deep because he
Speaker 1: was saying that's who that's who I am. But yet
Speaker 1: I'm still who I am to you. He said, I'm
Speaker 1: still your father. He said, I'll tell you this everything, y'all, God,
Speaker 1: it's because of me. Ask your mama, tell him, tell
Speaker 1: your sayce ask her mom, right, And you know what's
Speaker 1: funny is you know what's funny my mom. She'd be like,
Speaker 1: your your father was extremely talented, and I'm like, you're
Speaker 1: doing right. I was like, that's one of the instant, right,
Speaker 1: And I said, I give him that right. I know
Speaker 1: I didn't get everything from him. Mom, I got that's right,
Speaker 1: very true. But that day, Um, I was getting up,
Speaker 1: I was going. I was never forget. I was going
Speaker 1: to work. In my phone rang and I saw my
Speaker 1: mom calling me. I'm like, Mom, what up? I'm getting ready.
Speaker 1: She says, baby, your dad just had a heart attack.
Speaker 1: I need you to come. And I'm like, okay, is
Speaker 1: he ok She said yeah, you just need to come
Speaker 1: to the hospital right now. I'm like, okay, cool. She
Speaker 1: calls right back. I'm like my mom, I said, on
Speaker 1: mom my way and she said, baby, he's gone, and I, ah,
Speaker 1: damn it. Hold on. She said, baby, he's he's he's
Speaker 1: he's gone. They need you to come down and identify
Speaker 1: the body. And I said okay. And I sat for
Speaker 1: a second and I said, okay, I gotta call Jada.
Speaker 1: She picked up. She said hello, and I said Jay,
Speaker 1: she said, he's gone, isn't he? I didn't even ask. Yeah,
Speaker 1: m M. What I will say about that moment for me,
Speaker 1: that's when my brother became a man mm hmm. For
Speaker 1: because he had to go identify the body. He had
Speaker 1: to take care of the funeral arrangements. He did it all.
Speaker 1: And to have had that happened and I didn't have
Speaker 1: to take care of it. He had it The way
Speaker 1: you handled it was with so much strength, so much grace.
Speaker 1: And that's when he really grew up to me in
Speaker 1: that moment, you know, So to have my little brother
Speaker 1: be able to step up for me, it was an
Speaker 1: amazing moment. How did you feel? At first? I felt
Speaker 1: a lot of guilt because of the conversation we had had,
Speaker 1: and I never forget. I just had like the most
Speaker 1: startling realization that Rob's life wasn't about him being my father.
Speaker 1: Rob's life was about Rob being on his journey and
Speaker 1: it just so happened along the way. He gave me life,
Speaker 1: and in that moment, I realized he was not born
Speaker 1: to be my dad. That wasn't the only thing he
Speaker 1: was here to do. He's a person first with his
Speaker 1: own journey. Wow, that was something coming to that understand,
Speaker 1: and I had to call Caleb and I was like, Caleb,
Speaker 1: it didn't have anything to do with us, And that
Speaker 1: was like my AHA moment of like utter forgiveness and
Speaker 1: just to be able to see him as a human being.
Speaker 1: And that's when I started, even in my own life,
Speaker 1: just tearing down all these titles that keep us all
Speaker 1: these labels. We get so caught up in these titles
Speaker 1: and these labels of what people are supposed to be
Speaker 1: and how arrogant we are to believe we know who
Speaker 1: somebody is supposed to be in what they're supposed to do.
Speaker 1: Like you're my brother, and since you're my brother, you
Speaker 1: need to behave a certain way that I can feel
Speaker 1: good about myself. You're my mother, you're my daughter. When
Speaker 1: we when we look to our relationships to be something
Speaker 1: to fill us in a certain manner, you know, And
Speaker 1: that that's that is the thing for the last seven
Speaker 1: years that I've been in search of as emotional independence.
Speaker 1: When you don't need people to be something for you.
Speaker 1: Oh man, that's the real freedom. That's it, right, that's
Speaker 1: the real from man. That has been the greatest gift
Speaker 1: in my journey is releasing myself from that and releasing
Speaker 1: people that love me not feeling like they got to
Speaker 1: be something. And I'm continuing that, you know, that journey,
Speaker 1: specifically in my relationship with Will and with my kids,
Speaker 1: knowing that they don't belong to me I'll never forget
Speaker 1: that call because it also really helped me because I
Speaker 1: realized that's what I was doing to my father. It
Speaker 1: was really interesting to see him with family and children
Speaker 1: and maybe like you never did that with me. And
Speaker 1: now I'm feeling angry and a little jealous, and now
Speaker 1: I don't want you around. So now you haven't done anything.
Speaker 1: You just come and say, hey boy, how are you.
Speaker 1: It's our own pain and shortcomings that we want to
Speaker 1: hold on too, and say, this person did this to me,
Speaker 1: so this allows me to feel this way this way.
Speaker 1: That justification. Good point that because that victim hood cloak.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, oh baby, that could be a coldsy little
Speaker 1: joker right there, that little victim hood cloak. So you
Speaker 1: gotta want to let that go. R Yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: because it feels good to stay in in the pain
Speaker 1: sometimes of it. Some people enjoy it. And you don't
Speaker 1: have to be responsible for yourself, not if not if
Speaker 1: somebody else did something to you, because you can't fix it.
Speaker 1: Only they can't, which I think makes you weak, like
Speaker 1: it takes your power away, like in the sense that
Speaker 1: they've done something to you, so they owe me. Are
Speaker 1: they should be suffering and they're not so. Now you
Speaker 1: hold all this rage and you see them smiling doing
Speaker 1: whatever they're doing, and you hate every second that they
Speaker 1: breathing happy. But you're the only one that's sick from it.
Speaker 1: Forgiveness takes time, reflection. You gotta look at yourself, what
Speaker 1: part you played in it, coming to a relationship with expectations,
Speaker 1: because that's where the pain comes from. He didn't do
Speaker 1: something that you expected him to do as a father,
Speaker 1: right right, Yeah, I wanted to ask you, Willow. You
Speaker 1: probably remember Rob so much differently. Oh yeah, definitely. My
Speaker 1: initial impression was he was just a very he had
Speaker 1: a calm about him. Yeah, but I remember that he
Speaker 1: was very interested in a lot of the esoteric st
Speaker 1: and so back then he was he was actually considered
Speaker 1: I'm kind of weird. And what was his talent? Oh?
Speaker 1: He Rob could do. He could he could write poetry,
Speaker 1: he could create stories, he could act. He had everything
Speaker 1: that all of us can do in one He would
Speaker 1: his poetry, he would lay down to music. He thought
Speaker 1: he could rap. He said he was one of the
Speaker 1: first rappers. Been boy, let me tell you something so intelligent,
Speaker 1: almost genius. And you know how there's a line between
Speaker 1: genius and crazy. Yeah, that was your dad, and I
Speaker 1: think if he had waited and lasted, he would have
Speaker 1: found his clanning. Y'all. Yeah, Caleb, have you do you
Speaker 1: have any unresolved issues with Rob? I can honestly just
Speaker 1: say for me, I'm still I have not been able
Speaker 1: to fully forgive myself for the way I treated my
Speaker 1: father before losing him. When I talk about it, I
Speaker 1: can start crying like quickly, and that means it's unresolved
Speaker 1: within me. So it forces me to who actually do
Speaker 1: so much work to try to get better because I
Speaker 1: really felt really bad, you know what I mean, Like
Speaker 1: like I just I felt like I was a bad person.
Speaker 1: That's been the thing for me, and I'm getting better.
Speaker 1: It's but it's not fully resolved, so I would definitely
Speaker 1: say that. God, I have a question for you, Geh.
Speaker 1: Do you sometimes feel guilty for marrying wrong? I don't
Speaker 1: think I do. Yeah. No, all my guilt and shame came,
Speaker 1: you know, from my own addiction. And how did you
Speaker 1: deal with that game? How did you come to a
Speaker 1: place of like forgiveness for myself? Oh my god, it's
Speaker 1: actually because of you. I asked you, why didn't you
Speaker 1: just toss me to the side. Why didn't you just say,
Speaker 1: like forgive Yeah, but it listened. When you go through
Speaker 1: that kind of trauma as a child, somebody staying in
Speaker 1: of life is not a guarantee, and they just don't
Speaker 1: want a part of you anymore, you know. And I
Speaker 1: wanted to understand from Jada's point of view, how she
Speaker 1: could forgive me, right, And you said it was because
Speaker 1: you saw me changing. Yea. When people continue to repeat
Speaker 1: the same behavior, it's hard to forgive because then the
Speaker 1: forgiveness is just about words. They're just talking, right, you know,
Speaker 1: But your actions matter, right. So I started realizing that, yeah,
Speaker 1: I really am not the same person that I was
Speaker 1: back there. I really am changing, right, And I think
Speaker 1: the other thing for me, Like I'm sure people would wonder, Okay,
Speaker 1: did you have as much anger towards your mom as
Speaker 1: you did your dad? And it's funny because I feel
Speaker 1: like even though you were going through everything you were
Speaker 1: going through, we were still there together. You were always
Speaker 1: there no matter what. And I think the thing about
Speaker 1: Rob was that he wasn't. He just gave up. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Do you think the relationship with your dad affected relationships
Speaker 1: with other men in your life. Oh my god, asked
Speaker 1: a freaking lootly because you you don't really realize it,
Speaker 1: but you expect your intimate partners too in some way
Speaker 1: be the thing that your father wasn't like that is
Speaker 1: not his job booting. Here's the thing that you're gonna
Speaker 1: have to get with, Jada. You'll never have a man
Speaker 1: in your life you call daddy ever. I remember going
Speaker 1: through a stage with Will watching him father Willow. That
Speaker 1: was just like, oh my god, I'll never have that ever.
Speaker 1: I always tell Will I'm like, listen, I know your
Speaker 1: dad's not perfect, but my god, you have a daddy. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that is the one thing to be able to give
Speaker 1: my kids something I did didn't have and be able
Speaker 1: to watch it. You know. So what I had to
Speaker 1: stop looking at was that something was wrong or something
Speaker 1: wasn't right because poor little Jada didn't have a daddy.
Speaker 1: I had to learn how to stop focusing on what's
Speaker 1: not going well, focus on what's going well. Do you
Speaker 1: have anybody in your life you need to forgive or
Speaker 1: any moments of I definitely had to forgive um, you
Speaker 1: and Daddy, you know. For that hole with my hair thing.
Speaker 1: It was mostly Daddy because he was so like harsh
Speaker 1: at certain times. I always say, many daughters, it was
Speaker 1: like a couple of years honestly, like trying to regain
Speaker 1: trust for not feeling like I wasn't listened to or
Speaker 1: no one cared what I felt during that time, because
Speaker 1: it wasn't that you didn't want it, It just they
Speaker 1: weren't listening to how you wanted the experience to before.
Speaker 1: You had to forgive myself because I felt guilty because
Speaker 1: I was like, everyone is trying to make me better,
Speaker 1: trying to make my dream, but I didn't really understand
Speaker 1: what my dream and tails you could have. You know,
Speaker 1: I'm still you know, trying to. Yeah, that is one
Speaker 1: of the hardest things to do is to forgive yourself.
Speaker 1: But when you forgive yourself and when you learn to
Speaker 1: treat yourself better, then you treat others better. You treat
Speaker 1: others others kindness. I heard a real interesting quote that said,
Speaker 1: treat yourself like you're somebody you care about it like, oh, like,
Speaker 1: actually start loving yourself. Love is every everything. It's so funny.
Speaker 1: Will talks about this quote that you gave him that
Speaker 1: he says all the time, and it's when he wants
Speaker 1: to sound really smart to people. He'll say, my wife
Speaker 1: Jada always says that true love is blue. It's not red.
Speaker 1: Most people think it's red and red just passionate. But
Speaker 1: love is actually peace. But it doesn't it doesn't always
Speaker 1: look how you think. Well, that's because nobody thinks that
Speaker 1: love is blue. They think of it is red. So
Speaker 1: everybody's looking for something that is screaming red. We got
Speaker 1: to get a blue table, down nose, red table is
Speaker 1: the thing. But that's your own quote, and that's actually
Speaker 1: a Jada one. But the idea that it's blue and
Speaker 1: it's so deep, Yes, that's real talk. Wow, this was great,
Speaker 1: you guys, you guys, thank you for having me so
Speaker 1: cool on our next Red Table Talk. I celebrate anything black.
Speaker 1: I inevitably get a million comments. Are they coming from
Speaker 1: people I dated some really wonderful white man but you're
Speaker 1: dating someone at the top of the food chain. And
Speaker 1: then understand, all right, right, that was great, Ye that
Speaker 1: was nice, guys, like thank you for that because they've
Speaker 1: actually made me look at stuff a lot, like, yeah,
Speaker 1: you still got work to do here and we all
Speaker 1: do yeah, yeah, yeah, that is that is life right there.
Speaker 1: To join the Red Table Talk family, and become a
Speaker 1: part of the conversation. Follow us at facebook dot com
Speaker 1: slash red table Talk. Thanks for listening to this episode
Speaker 1: of Red Table Talk podcast produced by Facebook, Watch, Westbrook Audio,
Speaker 1: and I Heart Radio.