WEBVTT - High Stakes in Reservation Case 0:00:00.480 --> 0:00:05.680 You're listening to Bloomberg Law with June Grasso from Bloomberg Radio. 0:00:06.000 --> 0:00:09.440 The Creek Nation was one of five American Indian tribes 0:00:09.600 --> 0:00:12.560 forced west by the federal government on the Trail of 0:00:12.640 --> 0:00:17.040 Tears to present day Oklahoma. That dark history was part 0:00:17.040 --> 0:00:19.840 of the Supreme Court oral arguments in the case of 0:00:19.920 --> 0:00:23.560 Jimmy McGurk, who was convicted of trial rape in Oklahoma 0:00:23.640 --> 0:00:26.279 State Court and says the state did not have the 0:00:26.360 --> 0:00:29.840 power to prosecute him for crimes committed on Creek Land, 0:00:30.280 --> 0:00:33.640 but Oklahoma says there was no reservation to begin with. 0:00:34.200 --> 0:00:38.440 The case has vast implications for criminal, tax and regulatory power, 0:00:38.800 --> 0:00:42.600 and Justice Neil Gorsuch may hold the key vote, joining 0:00:42.640 --> 0:00:46.040 me as Jordan Reuben Bloomberg Law editor. So Jordan explained 0:00:46.080 --> 0:00:49.280 the controlling issue here. So this case is an appeal 0:00:49.479 --> 0:00:52.600 from a defendant named jim c McGurk, and he was 0:00:52.640 --> 0:00:56.000 convicted in Oklahoma State Court. And he readed the really 0:00:56.040 --> 0:01:00.920 interesting argument on appeal recently, and that's that Oklahoma state 0:01:00.960 --> 0:01:05.600 officials actually didn't have jurisdictions to prosecute him because he 0:01:05.800 --> 0:01:08.840 is a Native American and his crime technically took place 0:01:09.280 --> 0:01:13.000 on Native American land, and so that's his argument anyway, 0:01:13.319 --> 0:01:16.680 which raises the question of whether that land actually still 0:01:16.840 --> 0:01:20.640 is technically a reservation, which the state contests, and so 0:01:21.040 --> 0:01:24.400 that raises all sorts of issues beyond just this one prosecution. 0:01:24.800 --> 0:01:27.280 And if it does turn out that that land technically 0:01:27.440 --> 0:01:30.320 is a reservation, then that means that the federal government 0:01:30.600 --> 0:01:34.800 actually had exclusive jurisdiction over those prosecutions, as that would 0:01:34.800 --> 0:01:38.319 call into question a lot of prosecutions aside from just McGirt, 0:01:38.319 --> 0:01:42.040 in addition to civil consequences as well, not just criminals. 0:01:42.200 --> 0:01:44.399 Why is there even a question about whether or not 0:01:44.440 --> 0:01:48.280 it's a reservation. Isn't that something that's usually clear, right? 0:01:48.360 --> 0:01:52.120 So Jim c mcgert certainly says that it's clear. He 0:01:52.160 --> 0:01:56.040 would point to the fact that in the Creek Nations 0:01:56.120 --> 0:02:00.360 nineteenth century treaty it does explicitly use the term reserve vation. 0:02:00.520 --> 0:02:05.200 But there's really a complicated history of Native American lands, 0:02:05.480 --> 0:02:09.280 and really the history between the government, the federal government 0:02:09.440 --> 0:02:12.240 and Native Americans and the state government that makes it 0:02:12.320 --> 0:02:15.760 complicated in some ways to figure out what the actual 0:02:15.840 --> 0:02:19.280 status of the land is. But one thing about this 0:02:19.360 --> 0:02:23.600 case is that even beyond the technical status of the land. 0:02:23.680 --> 0:02:27.320 The justices really, in some ways we're more focused on 0:02:27.360 --> 0:02:30.000 the consequences of their decision. You could tell that some 0:02:30.120 --> 0:02:32.600 of them were really worried that if they were to 0:02:32.760 --> 0:02:37.320 rule in favor of Mr mcgart, of the consequences of 0:02:37.320 --> 0:02:41.240 that decision, rather than simply the question of whether, in 0:02:41.360 --> 0:02:45.200 fact that land still is a reservation. It seemed like 0:02:45.240 --> 0:02:49.080 several justices did ask questions about, but if we do this, 0:02:49.320 --> 0:02:53.240 then what happens in this case or that case? Just 0:02:53.320 --> 0:02:57.440 in terms of the general consequences point. You did have justices, 0:02:57.520 --> 0:03:01.160 for example, also Justice Ginsburg pointing to the fact that 0:03:01.520 --> 0:03:04.720 if the Court was to rule for Mr mcgurt she 0:03:05.080 --> 0:03:08.320 was questioning mcgret's lawyer and saying, you know, all of 0:03:08.320 --> 0:03:11.520 these really terrible cases are gonna be opened up. So 0:03:11.560 --> 0:03:14.040 that was one thing that they were really concerned with. 0:03:14.120 --> 0:03:17.240 And then also you saw, for example, a Justice Alito, 0:03:17.480 --> 0:03:21.480 he was questioning mcgurt's side as to the effect of 0:03:21.520 --> 0:03:24.480 the case on non Indians if it turns out that 0:03:24.520 --> 0:03:27.679 the implication of the ruling is that the eastern half 0:03:27.720 --> 0:03:31.600 of Oklahoma is technically still sitting on in Indian reservation, 0:03:31.720 --> 0:03:34.680 which the other side is saying is totally different from 0:03:35.000 --> 0:03:37.720 how people have been living their lives in the last 0:03:38.520 --> 0:03:41.880 over a hundred years. When the Justice asked these questions 0:03:41.920 --> 0:03:44.880 about if we rule this way, it's going to change 0:03:44.960 --> 0:03:49.040 so much. What was the answer of McGirk and the 0:03:49.280 --> 0:03:53.040 Creek Nation, Right, So, I think there's there's probably two 0:03:53.120 --> 0:03:56.320 levels to that. In the first instance, they would say 0:03:56.360 --> 0:04:00.200 that the consequences that the state claims really aren't that bad. 0:04:00.200 --> 0:04:03.320 They would cast it as a creative harribles that won't 0:04:03.320 --> 0:04:06.120 actually come to be. For example, one thing that they 0:04:06.200 --> 0:04:09.760 point to is say, for example Mr mcgret were to 0:04:09.800 --> 0:04:12.640 win this case, and then that would then trigger a 0:04:12.640 --> 0:04:15.840 bunch of state convictions getting overturned. Those cases could then 0:04:15.880 --> 0:04:19.200 be retried in federal court. You have the other side saying, 0:04:19.520 --> 0:04:23.440 with the federal government supporting Oklahoma here, that these federal 0:04:23.440 --> 0:04:26.360 prosecutors would be too overwhelmed if now they have all 0:04:26.480 --> 0:04:30.000 this new jurisdiction to deal with. So that's one level 0:04:30.040 --> 0:04:33.599 to it. Another is that mcgert and the Creek Nation 0:04:33.680 --> 0:04:38.279 would say that the consequences of the decision really aren't relevant. Really, 0:04:38.320 --> 0:04:41.440 the relevant question they're focused on is just simply the 0:04:41.520 --> 0:04:45.120 question of does the Creek Reservations still exist, and they 0:04:45.160 --> 0:04:48.559 say that the state and federal government just haven't shown 0:04:48.640 --> 0:04:53.279 enough to prove that Congress undid the reservation through legislation, 0:04:53.360 --> 0:04:56.640 as is required under a Supreme Court precedent. So you 0:04:56.760 --> 0:05:01.400 heard Justice Scorsages name several arms by the lawyers in 0:05:01.400 --> 0:05:05.640 the case because they were citing Corsige opinions explain why 0:05:05.720 --> 0:05:09.640 he seems to be at the heart of this case. Sure, so, 0:05:09.760 --> 0:05:12.760 this same exact issue was in front of the justice's 0:05:12.880 --> 0:05:15.920 last term in a different case. But the problem is 0:05:15.960 --> 0:05:19.720 that Justice Gorsis was refused from that case because it 0:05:19.800 --> 0:05:22.560 came from the federal appeals Court that he sat on 0:05:22.600 --> 0:05:25.160 when he was a judge there. And so the Supreme 0:05:25.200 --> 0:05:28.559 Court deadlock four to four, it seemed in that prior case. 0:05:28.960 --> 0:05:32.719 And so now with disappeal, which comes from Oklahoma State Court, 0:05:33.080 --> 0:05:36.160 Justice Corsi is free to weigh in because he's not refused, 0:05:36.200 --> 0:05:38.800 and so he can break the apparent deadlock. And so 0:05:38.839 --> 0:05:41.960 what we saw at the argument was the lawyers really 0:05:42.000 --> 0:05:46.040 pitching their cases directly to Justice Gorsis, even though all 0:05:46.160 --> 0:05:49.000 nine justices were on the line. There was an interesting 0:05:49.000 --> 0:05:52.640 phenomenon where it was almost an argument tailored specifically to 0:05:52.920 --> 0:05:56.040 Justice Corsage. There was also a lot of discussion of 0:05:56.400 --> 0:06:00.440 following the text wherever it leads. So Justice Course, which 0:06:00.600 --> 0:06:04.440 is known as a textualists in the tradition of Justice 0:06:04.480 --> 0:06:07.600 Anton and Scalia, the late Justice Anton and Scalia, So 0:06:07.960 --> 0:06:11.640 how will that affect his decision in this case? Well, 0:06:11.720 --> 0:06:14.960 McGirt in the Creek Nation, Uh, they tribe that's supporting 0:06:15.040 --> 0:06:17.480 mcgert here at the Supreme Court would say that this 0:06:17.520 --> 0:06:20.640 is an easy case for a textualist and an originalist 0:06:20.680 --> 0:06:23.839 like Justice Coursis, because their argument is that they're simply 0:06:24.279 --> 0:06:28.160 not clear enough of a congressional statement showing that Congress 0:06:28.200 --> 0:06:31.880 wanted to disestablish the reservation. Under the Supreme Court precedents, 0:06:32.160 --> 0:06:34.919 Congress needs to make a clear showing that they're trying 0:06:34.960 --> 0:06:38.560 to undo a reservation, and the defendants argument is that 0:06:38.560 --> 0:06:41.479 that really just hasn't happened here. So a ruling that 0:06:41.560 --> 0:06:44.160 comes down to just a straightforward ruling on the text 0:06:44.480 --> 0:06:47.800 as opposed to worrying about the consequences of the decision. 0:06:48.040 --> 0:06:51.160 McGirt is arguing anyway, then that's an easy win for him. 0:06:51.200 --> 0:06:54.320 So they're hoping that Justice Corsage does wind up ruling 0:06:54.400 --> 0:06:58.320 in what they're anyway, viewing as this textualist way. So 0:06:58.520 --> 0:07:00.800 what could you tell from the questions that he was 0:07:00.880 --> 0:07:05.320 asking at the oral arguments anything, Yes, the questions definitely 0:07:05.600 --> 0:07:10.040 favored McGirt and the tribe. You're probably if the case 0:07:10.240 --> 0:07:13.160 is going to come down to justice scorsages vote, um, 0:07:13.240 --> 0:07:15.720 as it does seem that it could be, then it 0:07:15.760 --> 0:07:19.520 really does seem like it is looking good for mcgert 0:07:19.880 --> 0:07:22.239 and the tribe. And if you're the state, you're probably 0:07:22.240 --> 0:07:25.760 concerned with the questions that he was asking them. Really, 0:07:25.760 --> 0:07:29.360 Gorse had a bunch of questions for the state's lawyer, 0:07:29.440 --> 0:07:31.880 essentially saying that he disagreed with their approach and also 0:07:32.000 --> 0:07:37.120 disagreed with their claims of negative practical consequences. So, if 0:07:37.160 --> 0:07:40.520 this is coming down to justice scorsages vote, then that's 0:07:40.600 --> 0:07:44.040 probably good news for McGirt and the tribe. Hasn't Justice scurse. 0:07:44.120 --> 0:07:49.040 It's recently written an opinion that indicated that at some point, 0:07:49.320 --> 0:07:52.800 if you're going to follow the statute, let the consequences 0:07:53.000 --> 0:07:55.840 be what they may. Right. So there was a recent 0:07:55.880 --> 0:07:59.000 opinion that came out in another context that came up 0:07:59.240 --> 0:08:01.720 during the argument today, and that was Justice gors Wich 0:08:01.800 --> 0:08:05.720 is somewhat recent opinion in the case called Ramos against Louisiana, 0:08:05.880 --> 0:08:09.240 and that was a case that involved unanimous jury verdicts, 0:08:09.280 --> 0:08:13.480 and that was another somewhat close case where again similar 0:08:13.520 --> 0:08:16.280 to hear somewhat, you have the state arguing that if 0:08:16.320 --> 0:08:19.160 the defendant Ramos won that case, there'd be all of 0:08:19.200 --> 0:08:24.600 these negative consequences of previous non unanimous convictions getting overturned 0:08:24.920 --> 0:08:28.120 and gorship and Gorsich said, essentially in one part of 0:08:28.120 --> 0:08:31.600 his opinion, well, whatever the consequences, maybe we just have 0:08:31.720 --> 0:08:34.320 to render the decision that we think is the correct 0:08:34.360 --> 0:08:37.360 one here. And so in this argument today, which of 0:08:37.400 --> 0:08:41.440 course was in a different context, mcgert's lawyer, he cited 0:08:41.480 --> 0:08:43.920 the Ramo's opinion right at the beginning of his argument. 0:08:44.240 --> 0:08:46.960 And so it seems that McGirt and the Creek Nation 0:08:46.960 --> 0:08:50.199 are hoping that Gorsich takes that same sort of approach 0:08:50.280 --> 0:08:53.240 that he did in the Ramos case and just straight 0:08:53.320 --> 0:08:56.040 up rule on the law without worrying about what the 0:08:56.080 --> 0:08:59.400 state is saying is going to be these disastrous consequences. 0:09:00.040 --> 0:09:04.880 With the four to four decision, was that along ideological lines, 0:09:05.000 --> 0:09:09.760 was it conservatives versus liberals. So the thing is given 0:09:09.880 --> 0:09:12.800 sort of the opaque nature of how the Supreme Court 0:09:12.880 --> 0:09:16.440 operates in some ways, We actually don't know what the 0:09:16.480 --> 0:09:19.800 internal vote breakdown was of that last case. All we 0:09:19.880 --> 0:09:22.400 know is that the Court said that it's going to 0:09:22.480 --> 0:09:25.640 step down the decision to decide at a later point, 0:09:25.720 --> 0:09:29.240 and so it just so happens that the speculation from 0:09:29.240 --> 0:09:33.360 that is that the Justice were in fact deadlock, because otherwise, 0:09:33.440 --> 0:09:36.120 if there was able to be some kind of five 0:09:36.160 --> 0:09:39.320 three decision, one imagines that they would have rendered it. 0:09:39.400 --> 0:09:42.920 And so this is something that court watchers are speculating 0:09:43.080 --> 0:09:46.160 was an internal deadlock. There hasn't really been an argument 0:09:46.280 --> 0:09:49.080 showing otherwise, and so that's what lends people to say 0:09:49.160 --> 0:09:51.080 that you have course that she's going to come in 0:09:51.160 --> 0:09:55.280 and break this four four deadlock by casting the fifth vote. 0:09:56.200 --> 0:10:00.240 And how would a decision in this case affect other 0:10:00.320 --> 0:10:03.880 tribes lands and whether their reservations would have an effect 0:10:03.880 --> 0:10:07.320 on other tribes. It definitely could, and that's part of 0:10:07.320 --> 0:10:11.400 where the state's concerns come from. So the Creek Nation, 0:10:11.440 --> 0:10:15.080 along with four other tribes, basically take up the eastern 0:10:15.120 --> 0:10:18.320 half of Oklahoma. They were the five tribes that were 0:10:18.400 --> 0:10:21.480 forced west by the federal government on the Trail of 0:10:21.559 --> 0:10:25.320 Tears in the eighteen thirties. And so given that these 0:10:25.320 --> 0:10:28.319 other tribes also have similar histories and set ups to 0:10:28.920 --> 0:10:31.760 the way that the Creek Nation was established. If in 0:10:31.760 --> 0:10:35.199 this case here the justices say that the Creek reservation 0:10:35.280 --> 0:10:38.440 still stands in that same logic could apply to the 0:10:38.480 --> 0:10:42.280 other four tribes too. And that's what leads Oklahoma officials 0:10:42.320 --> 0:10:46.640 to worry about losing jurisdiction over Indians and half the 0:10:46.679 --> 0:10:49.839 state because this law, called the Major Crimes Act, gives 0:10:49.880 --> 0:10:54.320 the federal government exclusive jurisdiction over crimes in Indian Country 0:10:54.520 --> 0:10:59.679 involving Indians. Let's say mcgt wins he right now is 0:11:00.040 --> 0:11:03.840 racing a life sentence in Oklahoma State prison for raping 0:11:04.040 --> 0:11:07.280 a four year old girl? Can he Can he be 0:11:07.559 --> 0:11:12.680 retried by the federal government or is the constitute of limitations? No, 0:11:12.840 --> 0:11:15.600 he can be retried by the federal government. And that's 0:11:15.640 --> 0:11:20.000 an argument that he himself makes, not just as applied 0:11:20.040 --> 0:11:23.920 to his own case, but as applied to other cases too. 0:11:24.000 --> 0:11:27.640 If these convictions get overturned, then people can be retried. Now, 0:11:28.000 --> 0:11:31.800 it's another question entirely whether the federal government would be 0:11:31.880 --> 0:11:35.240 able to put on an effective prosecution if a lot 0:11:35.280 --> 0:11:38.360 of time has gone by since the alleged crime has 0:11:38.400 --> 0:11:41.360 taken place, and that's something that came up during the 0:11:41.480 --> 0:11:45.640 argument as well, going against McGurk. But at least in theory, 0:11:46.000 --> 0:11:49.000 if these cases are getting overturned, then the federal government 0:11:49.040 --> 0:11:52.280 can pick them up. But in practice it's probably more 0:11:52.320 --> 0:11:55.200 of an open question as to whether the federal government 0:11:55.240 --> 0:11:59.680 would actually seek to reprosecute every single state conviction that 0:11:59.760 --> 0:12:03.640 might get overturned if mcgart wins. So. Going broader than 0:12:03.679 --> 0:12:07.520 this case too, the oral arguments themselves and how they've 0:12:07.520 --> 0:12:11.240 been going. It seems as if things are going quite 0:12:11.280 --> 0:12:18.200 well until the flush in the last case on Wednesday. 0:12:18.280 --> 0:12:21.120 How are people reacting to that? Is it likely to 0:12:21.160 --> 0:12:24.960 scare the justices off from these kinds of oral arguments? 0:12:26.000 --> 0:12:28.960 You know, they might use that as an excuse to 0:12:29.080 --> 0:12:31.160 not do this sort of thing in the future, But 0:12:31.720 --> 0:12:35.120 I think it actually serves to underscore how well these 0:12:35.120 --> 0:12:38.400 remote arguments were going. Besides all of that, and so 0:12:38.920 --> 0:12:41.880 I don't see why something like a toilet flushing during 0:12:42.040 --> 0:12:45.680 a remote argument, I don't see why that would stop 0:12:45.720 --> 0:12:49.240 the justices from doing live streaming of arguments in court 0:12:49.320 --> 0:12:53.559 where there's not a toilet, and I think if anything, um, 0:12:53.600 --> 0:12:55.360 it speaks to the fact that they should be doing 0:12:55.360 --> 0:12:58.240 these arguments over video, because one hopes anyway that that 0:12:58.240 --> 0:13:00.920 would act as a detern to that sort of thing. 0:13:01.240 --> 0:13:07.079 Thanks Jordan's that's Jordan Reuben Bloomberg, Law editor. Lawsuits to 0:13:07.160 --> 0:13:10.240 hold China accountable for its handling of the COVID nineteen 0:13:10.320 --> 0:13:14.319 pandemic are multiplying, seeking billions of dollars in what is 0:13:14.360 --> 0:13:17.880 a real uphill legal battle. Joining me is Patricia Hurtado, 0:13:17.960 --> 0:13:22.280 Bloomberg Legal reporter. So Patty, who is filing the lawsuits. 0:13:22.920 --> 0:13:26.880 It's a variety of different entities. There are lawsuits filed 0:13:26.880 --> 0:13:30.520 by the state of Missouri, and the state of Mississippi 0:13:30.640 --> 0:13:34.959 is also threatening to file a lawsuit. Different individuals are 0:13:35.040 --> 0:13:39.199 finally lawsuits, and there's a two class action lawsuits filed 0:13:39.200 --> 0:13:42.720 in Florida. The lawyers for their groups say they're getting 0:13:42.720 --> 0:13:45.760 tens of thousands of people signing up. Everybody from a 0:13:45.800 --> 0:13:50.560 surfboard shop owner injured in Florida because the businesses died down, 0:13:51.000 --> 0:13:54.920 restaurants that have collapsed because there's no business because of 0:13:54.960 --> 0:13:58.840 the stay at home orders to people, the healthcare workers 0:13:58.880 --> 0:14:02.520 that were injured on the job or that victims of 0:14:02.559 --> 0:14:05.640 COVID nineteen. Who are they suing. Are they just suing 0:14:05.679 --> 0:14:10.120 the government of China. Well, they're suing the Communist Party 0:14:10.160 --> 0:14:13.360 as well as the government of China under a nineteen 0:14:13.400 --> 0:14:17.319 seventy six law is the Foreign Sovereign Immunities Act, which 0:14:17.440 --> 0:14:23.200 allowed lawsuits to go forward against state governments, but with 0:14:23.280 --> 0:14:28.080 some restrictions. And it actually stems from early lawsuits that 0:14:28.440 --> 0:14:32.800 people were individuals trying to sue for claiming ownership of 0:14:32.840 --> 0:14:36.840 a warship that was taken in Philadelphia in eighteen twelve. 0:14:37.360 --> 0:14:40.320 So this goes back to the schooner times of trying 0:14:40.360 --> 0:14:44.320 to sue entities and hold who owns something, who's responsible? 0:14:44.760 --> 0:14:47.480 And this is a tort lawsuit. So they're saying injury 0:14:48.080 --> 0:14:53.720 China held secret the virus and the outbreak, kept it 0:14:53.760 --> 0:14:57.200 from the World Health Organization and therefore they should be 0:14:57.240 --> 0:15:02.760 held accountable. They're also suing the Inese Communist Party as well. Yeah, 0:15:02.920 --> 0:15:06.160 that appears to be an attempt to get around there 0:15:06.480 --> 0:15:10.960 are sovereign protections and some some experts say that these 0:15:11.040 --> 0:15:17.040 lawsuits won't survive challenges in the courts because China as 0:15:17.080 --> 0:15:20.080 a country is a sovereign and it has immunity. It's 0:15:20.080 --> 0:15:23.320 a it's a state, a government that has immunity. Under 0:15:23.360 --> 0:15:27.160 the Sovereign Immunities Act, there are some exceptions which say 0:15:27.360 --> 0:15:30.560 you can sue for tort for injury of some kind 0:15:30.600 --> 0:15:33.600 of commercial exception that if there were some kind of 0:15:33.600 --> 0:15:38.760 commercial activity that causes damage in the US, those tortious 0:15:38.800 --> 0:15:43.160 acts or those harms that injury and it injured Americans 0:15:43.240 --> 0:15:46.760 can render the protections and valid. So, but this suit 0:15:46.840 --> 0:15:50.840 alleges that the Communist Party is also susceptible to the 0:15:50.920 --> 0:15:55.600 lawsuits because in essence, they're arguing the Chinese Communist Party 0:15:56.000 --> 0:15:59.080 tells the Chinese government what to do, so that Chinese 0:15:59.120 --> 0:16:03.040 Communist Party can be help responsible. So all these attempts 0:16:03.080 --> 0:16:08.040 to get around the sovereign immunity problem are they usually 0:16:08.080 --> 0:16:13.160 successful in court? Now? There have not been successful in court. 0:16:13.240 --> 0:16:15.920 There have been lawsuits that were brought, for example, against 0:16:15.920 --> 0:16:20.480 Saudi Arabia after the September eleventh terrorist attacks. They tried 0:16:20.560 --> 0:16:23.360 to hold the victims of the September eleven attacks, tried 0:16:23.360 --> 0:16:30.040 to hold Saudi Arabia responsible for basically helping indirectly financed 0:16:30.040 --> 0:16:34.200 al Qaeda and Osama bin lawdon and UM those lawsuits 0:16:34.280 --> 0:16:40.280 were uh, were challenged, and then a Congress responded by overwriting, 0:16:40.320 --> 0:16:43.800 so there's a terrorism exception now in in the foreign 0:16:43.800 --> 0:16:47.880 sovereign immunities back. There's also been UH, there was a 0:16:47.960 --> 0:16:53.600 big dispute in Sudan also for trying to hold Sudan 0:16:53.720 --> 0:16:59.200 responsible for terrorist attacks, and that was also UM determined 0:16:59.240 --> 0:17:01.960 that they never could serve Sudan the government, you know, 0:17:02.040 --> 0:17:06.000 serving a country or serving a descendants saying, hey, you're 0:17:06.000 --> 0:17:10.160 being sued. There's difficulty. How do you serve a country? Right, 0:17:10.560 --> 0:17:14.280 So that's what sometimes the lawsuits have not prevailed, but 0:17:14.400 --> 0:17:17.400 there are many legal experts that have said to us 0:17:17.520 --> 0:17:22.639 that the challenges are very significant to this survival of 0:17:22.720 --> 0:17:27.720 these lawsuits. And also some members of Congress are trying 0:17:27.760 --> 0:17:30.920 to pass some kinds of bills to cut more holes 0:17:31.040 --> 0:17:34.680 into the sovereign immunity protection. Yes, they're trying to actually 0:17:34.760 --> 0:17:39.080 hold like a basically whole China responsible uh kind of 0:17:39.200 --> 0:17:44.120 legislation to kind of keep give the loopholes to these 0:17:44.200 --> 0:17:50.320 lawsuits to allow them to survive any challenges China may give. Now, 0:17:50.600 --> 0:17:54.160 one of the claims in this lawsuits are interesting. They're 0:17:54.280 --> 0:17:58.040 arguing that there were these virus labs in Wuhan where 0:17:58.040 --> 0:18:01.120 there was a pathogen leak from the abs. There were 0:18:01.320 --> 0:18:05.760 scientists and virologists studying a horseshoe bat in caves in China, 0:18:05.880 --> 0:18:09.159 and they got the virus and somehow there was a 0:18:09.200 --> 0:18:13.440 pathogen leak. It was a gone you know, that leaked 0:18:13.480 --> 0:18:16.080 out and leached out into the community of Wuhan, and 0:18:16.160 --> 0:18:19.160 that's how it did up in the wet markets. There's 0:18:19.200 --> 0:18:22.880 also a claim um by some that there was this 0:18:22.920 --> 0:18:26.240 is a bioweapon gone terribly wrong, and that China should 0:18:26.280 --> 0:18:29.640 be held responsible. It remains to be seeing how those 0:18:29.680 --> 0:18:34.399 survived because weekly their courts have been very skeptical of 0:18:34.480 --> 0:18:38.600 such claims, and China has said this is completely wrongheaded, 0:18:38.600 --> 0:18:41.680 trying to deny any that happened. They denied it was 0:18:41.800 --> 0:18:45.840 evidence of any bioweapon. And some scientists have also said, 0:18:46.240 --> 0:18:48.840 you know, the the scientists in Wuhan there were studying 0:18:48.880 --> 0:18:53.480 viruses were actually legitimately doing work that was helping helps 0:18:53.520 --> 0:18:57.440 the stars epidemic for example. So this is the way 0:18:57.600 --> 0:19:02.480 science uh virology and scientific advances are made when you 0:19:02.560 --> 0:19:05.639 do these kinds of study these viruses, and there was 0:19:05.960 --> 0:19:10.600 that there's no leak, and from your story, China has 0:19:10.640 --> 0:19:13.919 been pointing to different times in our history when the 0:19:14.040 --> 0:19:17.480 US didn't pay for damages, for example, the two thousand 0:19:17.560 --> 0:19:20.160 nine H one N one flu strain or the two 0:19:20.200 --> 0:19:24.760 thousand eight global financial crisis. Yes, and China has basically said, 0:19:24.880 --> 0:19:27.120 you know, what's good for the United States should also 0:19:27.200 --> 0:19:29.480 apply to China and that you know, this is a 0:19:29.520 --> 0:19:34.960 world epidemic and this one country cannot be held responsible. 0:19:35.280 --> 0:19:37.400 I mean, some of the claims in the lawsuit are 0:19:37.560 --> 0:19:41.719 China hit the information not only from from letting it 0:19:41.760 --> 0:19:46.080 get out, but also that it's basically concealed information from 0:19:46.080 --> 0:19:49.560 the World Health Organization of how serious things were until 0:19:49.600 --> 0:19:52.680 it was too late. So it does you know, I mean, 0:19:53.040 --> 0:19:55.800 it becomes an issue because of course we all now 0:19:55.880 --> 0:19:59.240 know that President Trump and Secretary of State Mike Pompeo 0:19:59.520 --> 0:20:04.560 are all blaming China. Some critics have said that this 0:20:04.720 --> 0:20:08.760 is possibly maybe the administration's efforts to point the finger 0:20:08.840 --> 0:20:12.480 somewhere else rather than owing up to responsibility of what 0:20:12.520 --> 0:20:15.000 we get and did we do it too late? When 0:20:15.000 --> 0:20:17.960 I look at these lawsuits, I wonder, how are they 0:20:18.040 --> 0:20:22.360 going to prove any of this? China is a closed 0:20:22.400 --> 0:20:25.600 country are they going to just let this information out? 0:20:25.760 --> 0:20:29.520 The proof seems like it might be really difficult. It's 0:20:29.560 --> 0:20:31.439 not only the proof, but if you think about it, 0:20:31.520 --> 0:20:34.280 this would be many steps to getting to a point 0:20:34.320 --> 0:20:37.560 where you'd actually have the case would proceed before a 0:20:37.560 --> 0:20:40.919 federal judge and it would it would you know, go 0:20:41.000 --> 0:20:44.320 to trial, or there would be some kind of evidentiary 0:20:44.480 --> 0:20:48.719 decisions made where there would be an exchange of evidence. Right, 0:20:48.720 --> 0:20:52.440 it's called discovery. But whether or not the cases even 0:20:52.480 --> 0:20:56.560 get to that stage remains in question. The judge who's 0:20:56.600 --> 0:20:59.960 presiding over one of the lawsuits in Florida that's got 0:21:00.440 --> 0:21:03.440 a purported ten thousand members, you know, the ones of 0:21:03.520 --> 0:21:06.880 the people that either got sick or their businesses were 0:21:06.920 --> 0:21:10.520 harmed terribly as a result of the outbreak in Florida 0:21:10.640 --> 0:21:13.879 and Southern Florida. That judge is set a September for 0:21:14.200 --> 0:21:18.400 hearing in the matter. Some experts say, you know, ever 0:21:18.520 --> 0:21:20.479 we even get to the point where there would there 0:21:20.480 --> 0:21:22.520 would be an exchange of evidence and there would be 0:21:22.560 --> 0:21:26.520 discovery may not happen just because it couldn't survive the 0:21:26.760 --> 0:21:32.359 built in challenges to suing, suing and prevailing. Even at 0:21:32.359 --> 0:21:37.120 the early, early, fundamental stages and if they do prevail, 0:21:37.480 --> 0:21:40.560 let's just say they go to trial, they win the case, 0:21:41.359 --> 0:21:45.120 how would they collect a judgment from China. Yeah, there's 0:21:45.160 --> 0:21:48.399 some they lawyers that we spoke to that brought the 0:21:48.440 --> 0:21:52.400 Florida lawsuits said that they think that they could possibly 0:21:52.520 --> 0:21:58.840 collect from UM. There's judgments of property that's owned by 0:21:58.880 --> 0:22:05.000 the Chinese government slash Communist Party in the United States, 0:22:05.119 --> 0:22:10.320 for example, there's businesses that are owned by the Chinese government, 0:22:10.520 --> 0:22:15.479 so UM. One possibility is suggested, you know, hotels and 0:22:15.720 --> 0:22:19.520 entities UM. And the US government has actually done this. 0:22:19.680 --> 0:22:24.359 They did it against Iran and it was Park Fifth 0:22:24.400 --> 0:22:28.679 Avenue skyscraper six fifty fifth Avenue, and the U s 0:22:28.720 --> 0:22:34.520 Attorney and the US government sued for RAND sanctions violations 0:22:34.560 --> 0:22:38.240 and they collected UM and they seized UH skyscraper at 0:22:38.240 --> 0:22:41.360 six fifty fifth Avenue. So, I mean, it's that kind 0:22:41.359 --> 0:22:43.800 of thing where it's amazing to think that the United 0:22:43.880 --> 0:22:48.480 States that there's property and skyscrapers all over the country 0:22:48.520 --> 0:22:51.960 who owned by countries, foreign countries. So that's one of 0:22:51.960 --> 0:22:55.760 the places the way that these guys would like to collect. Also, 0:22:55.920 --> 0:22:59.600 there's a danger that they might start suing Americans in 0:22:59.760 --> 0:23:03.119 China because Americans hold a lot of assets in China 0:23:03.560 --> 0:23:07.520 as well as Chinese holding assets here. Yes, and there's 0:23:07.600 --> 0:23:11.320 also a worry that, um, the Chinese government has also 0:23:11.400 --> 0:23:15.760 threatened sanctions against the US and they can try to 0:23:15.840 --> 0:23:19.320 create havoc, trade havoc with the United States. At these 0:23:19.400 --> 0:23:22.919 kind of cases prevail, I mean currently right now, the 0:23:22.960 --> 0:23:26.080 administration has left it up to states, some of them 0:23:26.080 --> 0:23:31.119 read states to file lawsuits against China. And the next step, 0:23:31.160 --> 0:23:33.840 of course, will be that these bills that have been 0:23:33.840 --> 0:23:37.359 introduced in the Senate and in the House to strip 0:23:37.560 --> 0:23:40.560 China of its community and they would like to also 0:23:40.600 --> 0:23:45.199 prompt international investigations into Beijing's conduct. So those kinds of 0:23:45.200 --> 0:23:47.840 things are going on in the US, but it depends 0:23:47.960 --> 0:23:51.760 on whether they stopped China measures will get major retaliation 0:23:51.880 --> 0:23:55.439 from the Chinese in trade and other avenues to go 0:23:55.520 --> 0:23:59.320 after the United States. Thanks Tad. That's Patricia Hurtado, Bloomberg 0:23:59.400 --> 0:24:01.720 Legal Report her and that's it for this edition of 0:24:01.720 --> 0:24:05.160 Bloomberg Law. I'm June Blosso, thanks so much for listening, 0:24:05.440 --> 0:24:07.880 and remember to tunity to the Bloomberg Law Show weeknights 0:24:07.920 --> 0:24:10.000 at ten pm Eastern or Bloomberg radio