1 00:00:15,370 --> 00:00:21,810 Speaker 1: Pushkin either listeners. Tim Harford here caution Tales will be 2 00:00:21,810 --> 00:00:24,490 Speaker 1: back next week, but in the meantime, we're sharing an 3 00:00:24,490 --> 00:00:28,210 Speaker 1: episode from the Warfare podcast, a show from history hit. 4 00:00:28,850 --> 00:00:31,690 Speaker 1: I'm a regular listener to Warfare if you haven't listened before. 5 00:00:31,770 --> 00:00:35,010 Speaker 1: It's hosted by James Rogers. James is a war historian 6 00:00:35,050 --> 00:00:38,210 Speaker 1: who works with the UN, NATO and governments around the world. 7 00:00:38,730 --> 00:00:42,210 Speaker 1: The show sometimes explores the defining wars of history, such 8 00:00:42,250 --> 00:00:45,410 Speaker 1: as the First and Second World War. Other episodes provide 9 00:00:45,450 --> 00:00:48,850 Speaker 1: context to ongoing conflicts, such as the war in Ukraine, 10 00:00:49,290 --> 00:00:52,690 Speaker 1: or even how it's related to China and Taiwan. The 11 00:00:52,770 --> 00:00:55,970 Speaker 1: episode You're about to hear isn't about some epic battle 12 00:00:56,130 --> 00:01:01,090 Speaker 1: or spectacular military blunder. It's about Anne Frank eighty years ago. 13 00:01:01,290 --> 00:01:04,650 Speaker 1: In nineteen forty two, Anne and her family went into 14 00:01:04,730 --> 00:01:08,450 Speaker 1: hiding during the Second World War, trying to avoid persecution 15 00:01:08,610 --> 00:01:13,090 Speaker 1: and death in Nazi occupied Amsterdam. And at this time, 16 00:01:13,170 --> 00:01:16,450 Speaker 1: Anne began keeping a diary that she called Kitty, a 17 00:01:16,610 --> 00:01:19,690 Speaker 1: diary that became one of the most recognized testimonies of 18 00:01:19,730 --> 00:01:23,770 Speaker 1: the Jewish wartime experience. But Anne's story doesn't begin in 19 00:01:23,850 --> 00:01:27,970 Speaker 1: nineteen forty two. In this episode, James explores the life 20 00:01:27,970 --> 00:01:30,850 Speaker 1: of the Franks before the war and why their story 21 00:01:31,050 --> 00:01:34,410 Speaker 1: is still so relevant today. I hope you find this 22 00:01:34,530 --> 00:01:37,930 Speaker 1: Warfare episode from our friends at History Hit as moving 23 00:01:38,170 --> 00:01:40,890 Speaker 1: and as important as I did. You can hear more 24 00:01:40,970 --> 00:01:46,010 Speaker 1: from Warfare wherever you get your podcasts. I'm James Rogers, 25 00:01:46,050 --> 00:01:49,170 Speaker 1: and on today's Warfare podcast, re mark the eightieth anniversary 26 00:01:49,210 --> 00:01:52,650 Speaker 1: of that fateful day on July sixth, nineteen forty two, 27 00:01:52,810 --> 00:01:56,250 Speaker 1: when Anne and her family went into hiding by finding 28 00:01:56,250 --> 00:01:59,130 Speaker 1: out about the people who hid the Franks and another 29 00:01:59,170 --> 00:02:02,410 Speaker 1: family who lived alongside them. To help with this, we 30 00:02:02,490 --> 00:02:05,970 Speaker 1: have doctor Gertruand Brooke, who has been the senior historical 31 00:02:06,010 --> 00:02:09,370 Speaker 1: researcher at the now preserved Anne Frank House in Amsterdam 32 00:02:09,410 --> 00:02:12,370 Speaker 1: for over fifteen years. He joins us to explain the 33 00:02:12,370 --> 00:02:15,610 Speaker 1: fates of those involved and to reveal the real reason 34 00:02:15,690 --> 00:02:19,570 Speaker 1: why Anne and her family were eventually found by the Nazis. 35 00:02:27,970 --> 00:02:30,530 Speaker 1: Hi Goon, Welcome to the Warfare Podcast. How are you 36 00:02:30,570 --> 00:02:33,770 Speaker 1: doing today? I'm fine, Thank you, good to hear what. 37 00:02:33,890 --> 00:02:37,250 Speaker 1: It is great to have you on the podcast, especially 38 00:02:37,290 --> 00:02:40,610 Speaker 1: at this important time of the year because this July 39 00:02:40,850 --> 00:02:44,650 Speaker 1: marks eighty years since Anne Frank and her family went 40 00:02:44,930 --> 00:02:48,810 Speaker 1: into hiding in Nazi occupied Amsterdam, and of course we 41 00:02:48,850 --> 00:02:52,050 Speaker 1: can all still visit that house today. The Anne Frank 42 00:02:52,130 --> 00:02:56,530 Speaker 1: House located just outside downtown Amsterdam. I've been there myself, 43 00:02:56,850 --> 00:03:01,130 Speaker 1: and I'm always struck by the somber silence of all 44 00:03:01,170 --> 00:03:04,930 Speaker 1: of those who are walking around the building, going through 45 00:03:04,970 --> 00:03:08,410 Speaker 1: into each different room, up into the lost back down 46 00:03:08,610 --> 00:03:12,810 Speaker 1: and the exhibition space. It truly is a sobering and 47 00:03:13,090 --> 00:03:16,650 Speaker 1: educational experience. And I suppose that sums up a bit 48 00:03:16,650 --> 00:03:19,170 Speaker 1: more of what the Ann Frank House is because it's 49 00:03:19,170 --> 00:03:22,130 Speaker 1: not just a museum, is it. It's not just a museum. 50 00:03:22,170 --> 00:03:26,290 Speaker 1: It's also considered to be a place of remembrance, and 51 00:03:26,850 --> 00:03:29,370 Speaker 1: most of the visiting people they dig that up. I 52 00:03:29,410 --> 00:03:32,730 Speaker 1: think they notice that. So yes, it's a place that 53 00:03:33,290 --> 00:03:36,250 Speaker 1: a lot of people are impressed by visiting, just when 54 00:03:36,290 --> 00:03:39,570 Speaker 1: you walk around and you are pondering and thinking over 55 00:03:39,690 --> 00:03:43,450 Speaker 1: what just happened there in those years. Absolutely, and it 56 00:03:44,250 --> 00:03:47,530 Speaker 1: is a museum, it is a space where you can 57 00:03:47,570 --> 00:03:50,530 Speaker 1: also learn a lot about this history, where talks can 58 00:03:50,570 --> 00:03:53,690 Speaker 1: take place, where exhibitions can take place, but there's also 59 00:03:53,850 --> 00:03:57,770 Speaker 1: research going on within the organization, and you're part of that, 60 00:03:57,850 --> 00:04:01,090 Speaker 1: aren't you. Yes, that's right. For a long time the 61 00:04:01,330 --> 00:04:05,330 Speaker 1: mission of the Anna Frank House was mainly educational and 62 00:04:05,450 --> 00:04:08,610 Speaker 1: that is still an important part of it. But since 63 00:04:08,850 --> 00:04:12,890 Speaker 1: I think about fifteen years, fifteen to twenty years, the 64 00:04:12,970 --> 00:04:17,050 Speaker 1: idea has grown that it's good for us as an organization, 65 00:04:17,690 --> 00:04:20,890 Speaker 1: as an educational organization, also as a museum, and also 66 00:04:21,250 --> 00:04:24,450 Speaker 1: as a center of knowledge, as we are supposed to 67 00:04:24,530 --> 00:04:27,890 Speaker 1: know things about the life of Unfrank and the people 68 00:04:27,930 --> 00:04:31,650 Speaker 1: around her. So the idea of forming our own body 69 00:04:31,690 --> 00:04:35,650 Speaker 1: of knowledge rather than rely on what other people do 70 00:04:35,730 --> 00:04:39,690 Speaker 1: and think that's important. So the head of collections at 71 00:04:39,730 --> 00:04:43,490 Speaker 1: that time got the idea to have a research department 72 00:04:43,730 --> 00:04:46,290 Speaker 1: as well, and she managed to get at a float 73 00:04:46,450 --> 00:04:48,810 Speaker 1: and that was about that time that I came in. 74 00:04:49,130 --> 00:04:52,250 Speaker 1: I was working there in another capacity, but I am 75 00:04:52,250 --> 00:04:55,290 Speaker 1: a researcher and I'm a historian, so I was taken 76 00:04:55,330 --> 00:04:59,810 Speaker 1: on board to actually perform the research, not on my own, 77 00:04:59,850 --> 00:05:03,730 Speaker 1: but most of the past fifteen years, I think the 78 00:05:03,730 --> 00:05:06,250 Speaker 1: main part of the research that's been done, but there 79 00:05:06,250 --> 00:05:08,650 Speaker 1: are others as well. And what sort of things we 80 00:05:08,810 --> 00:05:12,050 Speaker 1: rea searching? What were you diving into? Well, that's mainly 81 00:05:12,090 --> 00:05:15,810 Speaker 1: every aspect of the life. But what we consider fourteen 82 00:05:16,130 --> 00:05:19,930 Speaker 1: what we call protagonists main figures, and that's unfrank and 83 00:05:20,010 --> 00:05:22,290 Speaker 1: her family and the other four people that have been 84 00:05:22,370 --> 00:05:26,010 Speaker 1: hiding with them in that building. So there's another family 85 00:05:26,090 --> 00:05:29,090 Speaker 1: and the dentist Fritz Pfort on his own, and then 86 00:05:29,130 --> 00:05:31,610 Speaker 1: there's six people that try to help them. They were 87 00:05:31,610 --> 00:05:33,610 Speaker 1: in other secret and they were trying to provide them 88 00:05:33,610 --> 00:05:36,850 Speaker 1: with food and protection and help them. So that's fourteen people, 89 00:05:37,850 --> 00:05:41,170 Speaker 1: and well we actually delve into their life stories. Where 90 00:05:41,170 --> 00:05:43,290 Speaker 1: did they come from, what did they do before, what 91 00:05:43,370 --> 00:05:45,850 Speaker 1: they do after, and how when that? That is the 92 00:05:45,850 --> 00:05:49,490 Speaker 1: main question. I think, how did all these lives evolve 93 00:05:49,610 --> 00:05:53,050 Speaker 1: and go on that made them all come together at 94 00:05:53,090 --> 00:05:56,010 Speaker 1: one point in nineteen fourty two in that building and 95 00:05:56,330 --> 00:05:59,650 Speaker 1: doing what they did there at the time. And then 96 00:05:59,690 --> 00:06:03,570 Speaker 1: there's also history of the corporations, the companies that were 97 00:06:03,610 --> 00:06:07,090 Speaker 1: running in the building where those people worked. For the 98 00:06:07,170 --> 00:06:10,130 Speaker 1: Diary of Under Frankie itself, how did it develop? How 99 00:06:10,130 --> 00:06:13,610 Speaker 1: did you write it? What does she write about? Because 100 00:06:14,050 --> 00:06:17,010 Speaker 1: I suppose most people do know that the book that 101 00:06:17,170 --> 00:06:20,570 Speaker 1: you buy in the bookstore is in fact is based 102 00:06:20,730 --> 00:06:24,570 Speaker 1: on an immense pile of paper as a manuscript. Various 103 00:06:24,810 --> 00:06:28,250 Speaker 1: versions also even some short stories and novels. This girl 104 00:06:28,330 --> 00:06:30,210 Speaker 1: wanted to be a writer, but she also wanted to 105 00:06:30,250 --> 00:06:32,450 Speaker 1: be a journalist, and in a lot of her approaches 106 00:06:32,490 --> 00:06:35,810 Speaker 1: and the things that she write about himself and about 107 00:06:35,810 --> 00:06:39,610 Speaker 1: her experiences, you see a journalistic or at least the 108 00:06:39,650 --> 00:06:43,650 Speaker 1: proto journalistic approach at the least. And so we also 109 00:06:43,770 --> 00:06:46,370 Speaker 1: research into all that. When she mentioned someone the men 110 00:06:46,410 --> 00:06:49,730 Speaker 1: around the corner of the lady next door, who does 111 00:06:49,770 --> 00:06:51,650 Speaker 1: she mean? Who is that? What is their role? What 112 00:06:51,770 --> 00:06:54,530 Speaker 1: is that part in the complete picture of the life story? 113 00:06:55,090 --> 00:06:58,330 Speaker 1: And the general idea got it all short? Is that 114 00:06:58,570 --> 00:07:02,370 Speaker 1: insights The knowledge that we get from that offer us 115 00:07:02,410 --> 00:07:06,290 Speaker 1: basically a window and outlook not on particular her life 116 00:07:06,290 --> 00:07:08,170 Speaker 1: and her diary, but of the time that she was 117 00:07:08,250 --> 00:07:10,810 Speaker 1: living in and what was happening to her, what was 118 00:07:10,850 --> 00:07:13,810 Speaker 1: happening around her. Well, let's draw on your research. You 119 00:07:13,970 --> 00:07:17,130 Speaker 1: do exactly that, because, like you rightly say, Anne Frank's 120 00:07:17,130 --> 00:07:19,970 Speaker 1: story did not start in July nineteen forty two, when 121 00:07:20,010 --> 00:07:23,050 Speaker 1: her family went into hiding or when she started writing 122 00:07:23,050 --> 00:07:25,610 Speaker 1: her diary. Instead, it goes back much further than that. 123 00:07:25,850 --> 00:07:29,650 Speaker 1: Because the Frank family, although mostly associated with Amsterdam today, 124 00:07:29,970 --> 00:07:34,410 Speaker 1: they were of course Germans, So take us through that history. 125 00:07:34,850 --> 00:07:37,570 Speaker 1: What were the Frank family doing before they arrived in 126 00:07:37,650 --> 00:07:41,810 Speaker 1: the Netherlands and how did they get there. Frank's father, 127 00:07:41,970 --> 00:07:47,210 Speaker 1: he was from a family that'd been living in frankfort 128 00:07:47,410 --> 00:07:52,050 Speaker 1: a mind quite some time. And chiefly his father worked 129 00:07:52,090 --> 00:07:55,130 Speaker 1: his way up from just a businessman, so to speak, 130 00:07:55,370 --> 00:07:58,530 Speaker 1: and he became part of the affluent society. Would the 131 00:07:58,610 --> 00:08:01,970 Speaker 1: family shifted into affluence, you can say. He was a 132 00:08:02,010 --> 00:08:06,330 Speaker 1: banker and successful at that, but the family business was 133 00:08:06,450 --> 00:08:10,530 Speaker 1: hit pretty hard by the Great War, so investing in 134 00:08:10,610 --> 00:08:13,730 Speaker 1: war bonds, and well, German war bonds were the best 135 00:08:13,730 --> 00:08:16,650 Speaker 1: of investment after nineteen eighteen, so they gave me too 136 00:08:16,730 --> 00:08:19,930 Speaker 1: a bit of trouble there, and nineteen twenty nine hit 137 00:08:19,970 --> 00:08:23,010 Speaker 1: them hard as well. So I'm going with a bit quickly, 138 00:08:23,050 --> 00:08:26,970 Speaker 1: I think. But so around nineteen thirty a lot of 139 00:08:27,130 --> 00:08:31,050 Speaker 1: refluence was dwindling, and of course political developments in Germany 140 00:08:31,130 --> 00:08:34,370 Speaker 1: at the time didn't make it much better. So gradually 141 00:08:34,610 --> 00:08:39,210 Speaker 1: around the early nineteen thirties, and expediated by nineteen thirty 142 00:08:39,210 --> 00:08:41,370 Speaker 1: three the rise to power of Hitler and this National 143 00:08:41,450 --> 00:08:46,010 Speaker 1: Socialist Party. Although the sister and the brothers of Otto Frank, 144 00:08:46,050 --> 00:08:48,530 Speaker 1: they all left the country and his mother too. So 145 00:08:48,770 --> 00:08:51,730 Speaker 1: Otto Frank and his two brothers they'd been fighting in 146 00:08:51,730 --> 00:08:55,970 Speaker 1: the German army in fourteen eighteen years and his two 147 00:08:56,010 --> 00:08:58,730 Speaker 1: brothers preferred to live in the capital cities of the 148 00:08:58,810 --> 00:09:02,450 Speaker 1: former enemies at Paris in London rather than staying in Germany. 149 00:09:02,490 --> 00:09:04,610 Speaker 1: That I think it says a few things about the 150 00:09:04,610 --> 00:09:08,130 Speaker 1: atmosphere there at the time. Otto Frank's had a chance 151 00:09:08,170 --> 00:09:12,970 Speaker 1: to come to Amster. I'm after always neutral Netherlands. Yeah, 152 00:09:13,010 --> 00:09:16,730 Speaker 1: the business opportunity there, so that was his choice. They 153 00:09:16,770 --> 00:09:19,330 Speaker 1: moved to the Netherlands in nineteen thirty three. At that time, 154 00:09:19,370 --> 00:09:22,610 Speaker 1: for a businessman, which means and a solid business plan, 155 00:09:23,250 --> 00:09:27,530 Speaker 1: settling there wasn't really very hard. So later in the 156 00:09:27,610 --> 00:09:31,410 Speaker 1: thirties the Netherlands became very strict on the immigration because 157 00:09:31,450 --> 00:09:33,250 Speaker 1: a lot of refugees came from Us to be a 158 00:09:33,330 --> 00:09:36,010 Speaker 1: later and from Germany. But they were lucky to be 159 00:09:36,090 --> 00:09:38,810 Speaker 1: so early. So they lived in the Netherlands and I'm 160 00:09:39,050 --> 00:09:42,370 Speaker 1: done in a relatively well to do area. I think, 161 00:09:42,410 --> 00:09:44,690 Speaker 1: a friendly area with a lot of other Germans, but 162 00:09:44,770 --> 00:09:48,490 Speaker 1: also Spanish, Hungarians, Dutch, all sorts of people from upper 163 00:09:48,530 --> 00:09:51,050 Speaker 1: middle class. I guess you see that's really interesting to 164 00:09:51,090 --> 00:09:54,250 Speaker 1: know because that means that you know, this wasn't a 165 00:09:54,330 --> 00:09:58,130 Speaker 1: last minute decision to flee Germany. It wasn't kind of 166 00:09:58,330 --> 00:10:01,930 Speaker 1: putting the Frank family into a brand new situation where 167 00:10:01,970 --> 00:10:05,730 Speaker 1: they knew absolutely nobody around. Instead, they've been there almost 168 00:10:05,850 --> 00:10:07,850 Speaker 1: a decade by the time that they had to go 169 00:10:08,010 --> 00:10:12,250 Speaker 1: into hiding, which must have most definitely helped in trying 170 00:10:12,250 --> 00:10:15,810 Speaker 1: to create a situation which well they could try and 171 00:10:16,090 --> 00:10:19,970 Speaker 1: be kept secret, be kept safe for as long as possible. Yes, 172 00:10:20,050 --> 00:10:22,890 Speaker 1: in general, you can say that people at the time Jews, 173 00:10:23,090 --> 00:10:25,130 Speaker 1: but there were other groups they were forced to hide 174 00:10:25,130 --> 00:10:28,090 Speaker 1: as well, but for other reasons obviously. And if you 175 00:10:28,130 --> 00:10:29,930 Speaker 1: want to go and hide, the best thing you can do, 176 00:10:29,970 --> 00:10:32,210 Speaker 1: and what the most people did that is rely on 177 00:10:32,290 --> 00:10:37,330 Speaker 1: pre existing networks, on business associations, family relations, friendships, and 178 00:10:37,370 --> 00:10:40,450 Speaker 1: that's exactly what they did too. Otto Frank had been 179 00:10:40,490 --> 00:10:43,290 Speaker 1: working in the Netherlands, as you say, over eight years, 180 00:10:43,930 --> 00:10:46,810 Speaker 1: so he had his networks. He had a business, although 181 00:10:46,850 --> 00:10:49,850 Speaker 1: he had to fagate that then after the occupation of 182 00:10:49,890 --> 00:10:52,450 Speaker 1: the Netherlands, but he had loyal business associates that he 183 00:10:52,530 --> 00:10:55,970 Speaker 1: worked with and loyal staff. So how did the situation 184 00:10:56,090 --> 00:11:00,810 Speaker 1: in Netherlands change over that almost decade period, and when 185 00:11:00,810 --> 00:11:03,850 Speaker 1: did Otto Frank realize that the family would have to 186 00:11:04,090 --> 00:11:07,170 Speaker 1: now go into hiding. Well, basically, you can't say that 187 00:11:07,290 --> 00:11:11,090 Speaker 1: people leaving. Let's stick two Jewish Germans they'd had to leave. 188 00:11:11,290 --> 00:11:13,890 Speaker 1: It's obviously you have to leave Germany because there's much 189 00:11:13,930 --> 00:11:16,250 Speaker 1: of a future there. There was over time that shifted, 190 00:11:16,370 --> 00:11:18,410 Speaker 1: but in the early ninety twenties for a lot of 191 00:11:18,410 --> 00:11:23,050 Speaker 1: people that was obvious and things only deteriorated afterwards. So 192 00:11:23,770 --> 00:11:26,130 Speaker 1: what can you do. You can try and migrate. You 193 00:11:26,130 --> 00:11:29,370 Speaker 1: can move to another country and find safety there. A 194 00:11:29,410 --> 00:11:31,770 Speaker 1: lot of people thought, well that other country better be 195 00:11:31,810 --> 00:11:34,290 Speaker 1: on the other side of the ocean, but that was 196 00:11:34,330 --> 00:11:38,130 Speaker 1: always difficult. The United States didn't have a refugee policy, 197 00:11:38,170 --> 00:11:40,130 Speaker 1: they had an immigration policy. So if you want to 198 00:11:40,170 --> 00:11:42,770 Speaker 1: go and emigrate, you've got to jump a lot of hurdles, 199 00:11:42,770 --> 00:11:44,770 Speaker 1: and you've got to make sure that you don't become 200 00:11:44,770 --> 00:11:48,290 Speaker 1: a liability to public means over there. So it's not 201 00:11:48,370 --> 00:11:52,010 Speaker 1: that easy. And I think most of the people that 202 00:11:52,130 --> 00:11:55,010 Speaker 1: I come across in my research German Jews living in 203 00:11:55,010 --> 00:11:58,090 Speaker 1: the Netherlands. You can always find traces of documents or 204 00:11:58,810 --> 00:12:00,850 Speaker 1: that they tried to go to the US, and some 205 00:12:00,930 --> 00:12:04,010 Speaker 1: of them could, some of them couldn't. And Otto Frank 206 00:12:04,170 --> 00:12:06,490 Speaker 1: and his family tried that as well. There is a 207 00:12:06,570 --> 00:12:09,050 Speaker 1: document that he says in nineteen thirty eight, I applied 208 00:12:09,130 --> 00:12:11,730 Speaker 1: for immigration to the US of at nineteen thirty eight. 209 00:12:12,970 --> 00:12:15,490 Speaker 1: That's a dramatic year because we don't know when in 210 00:12:15,570 --> 00:12:18,970 Speaker 1: nineteen thirty eight, So earlier in nineteen thirty eight you'd 211 00:12:19,010 --> 00:12:22,650 Speaker 1: be on a waiting list with perhaps twenty twenty five 212 00:12:22,650 --> 00:12:25,770 Speaker 1: thousand others, which is quite a lot. But later in 213 00:12:25,810 --> 00:12:28,850 Speaker 1: the year, after the unshows of Austria. In Nazi Germany, 214 00:12:28,850 --> 00:12:31,970 Speaker 1: it had particular in November after the pogroms what we 215 00:12:32,050 --> 00:12:35,010 Speaker 1: call the christal Nacht, the number of applicants for the 216 00:12:35,090 --> 00:12:38,490 Speaker 1: US skyrocketed up to three hundred and fifty thousand or so, 217 00:12:39,450 --> 00:12:42,930 Speaker 1: where the US would only allow a bit over twenty 218 00:12:42,970 --> 00:12:46,450 Speaker 1: thousand German born immigrants every year. So you see you 219 00:12:46,490 --> 00:12:49,690 Speaker 1: waiting list of ten years. Immigration is not an option. 220 00:12:49,810 --> 00:12:53,930 Speaker 1: Some people try to naturalize to another nationality into another country. 221 00:12:54,210 --> 00:12:56,330 Speaker 1: That didn't help in the end either. But for a 222 00:12:56,330 --> 00:12:59,050 Speaker 1: lot of people in nineteen forty two, they've been trying 223 00:12:59,210 --> 00:13:02,530 Speaker 1: quite a few things to get the safety and then 224 00:13:02,570 --> 00:13:05,290 Speaker 1: in nineteen forty two, in the summer, the choice was 225 00:13:05,450 --> 00:13:08,690 Speaker 1: we report ourselves in for a transit camp and then 226 00:13:08,690 --> 00:13:10,570 Speaker 1: we've got to send off to labor. There was the 227 00:13:10,650 --> 00:13:13,850 Speaker 1: idea at the time, although there was the pretext, or 228 00:13:13,930 --> 00:13:16,410 Speaker 1: we go and hide. And it's good to consider that 229 00:13:16,450 --> 00:13:19,090 Speaker 1: in the Netherlands in the summer of nineteen forty two, 230 00:13:19,330 --> 00:13:22,610 Speaker 1: almost everyone thought this thing is going to be over 231 00:13:22,770 --> 00:13:25,890 Speaker 1: in what six, eight, ten months, a year, perhaps because 232 00:13:25,930 --> 00:13:29,170 Speaker 1: the Americans will come, the British will come, and all 233 00:13:29,210 --> 00:13:32,010 Speaker 1: the Allies will come and we're going to sort out 234 00:13:32,090 --> 00:13:35,330 Speaker 1: these Germans. And there was a mistake, but that was 235 00:13:35,370 --> 00:13:37,650 Speaker 1: the idea. Can we go hide and sit it out, 236 00:13:37,890 --> 00:13:41,090 Speaker 1: or should we report in? So the plan here then 237 00:13:41,450 --> 00:13:44,330 Speaker 1: was when it was realized that they would have to 238 00:13:44,410 --> 00:13:47,850 Speaker 1: go into hiding, the thoughts were perhaps that they only 239 00:13:47,850 --> 00:13:50,690 Speaker 1: have to be there for a matter of months until 240 00:13:50,890 --> 00:13:54,770 Speaker 1: the Allied liberation. Yes, the general assumption in analysts. You 241 00:13:54,770 --> 00:13:56,370 Speaker 1: can read that in a lot of documents, in a 242 00:13:56,450 --> 00:13:59,690 Speaker 1: lot of recollections of people at that time. Everyone thought 243 00:14:00,010 --> 00:14:03,010 Speaker 1: nineteen forty two was already pretty long and that this 244 00:14:03,130 --> 00:14:07,410 Speaker 1: can't last much longer. So over optimistic perhaps, or perhaps 245 00:14:07,410 --> 00:14:09,810 Speaker 1: there was really the thought of that day. That's hard 246 00:14:09,850 --> 00:14:13,490 Speaker 1: to judge, but in general people would think, well, if 247 00:14:13,490 --> 00:14:15,090 Speaker 1: it's going to be for a year or so, we're 248 00:14:15,090 --> 00:14:17,130 Speaker 1: going to do that, we can see that out. But 249 00:14:17,290 --> 00:14:19,850 Speaker 1: it went on for a lot longer than that, and 250 00:14:19,890 --> 00:14:24,890 Speaker 1: a number of risked their lives to offer the Franks sentuary. 251 00:14:25,130 --> 00:14:27,290 Speaker 1: So one of the things that isn't often looked into 252 00:14:27,370 --> 00:14:29,970 Speaker 1: as much is who these helpers were. Could you give 253 00:14:30,010 --> 00:14:32,690 Speaker 1: us an idea of the people who did help provide 254 00:14:32,690 --> 00:14:36,690 Speaker 1: the Franks sentry. Yes, four of them were office staff 255 00:14:36,970 --> 00:14:39,610 Speaker 1: off the companies. There were two companies in the building. 256 00:14:40,090 --> 00:14:43,250 Speaker 1: One is that most people know that opect that's really 257 00:14:43,330 --> 00:14:46,690 Speaker 1: a small product. It's a jelling agent for homemaking gem 258 00:14:46,970 --> 00:14:50,330 Speaker 1: home cooking of jam and so that for a couple 259 00:14:50,370 --> 00:14:53,210 Speaker 1: of years there was the cork on which Frank and 260 00:14:53,250 --> 00:14:56,290 Speaker 1: his family were afloat. But it wasn't really much of 261 00:14:56,290 --> 00:14:59,490 Speaker 1: a business. So they needed more turn all for more 262 00:14:59,570 --> 00:15:02,970 Speaker 1: to turnouts to keep themselves alive, and with a couple 263 00:15:02,970 --> 00:15:06,410 Speaker 1: of business associates, he founded a business that traded in 264 00:15:06,690 --> 00:15:10,850 Speaker 1: ingredients for the food industry, so that spices from Asia 265 00:15:10,930 --> 00:15:15,010 Speaker 1: to colonial products, basically cinema and nutmeag that sort of stuff, 266 00:15:15,050 --> 00:15:18,010 Speaker 1: but also preservants and colorants and odorants and all sorts 267 00:15:18,010 --> 00:15:21,410 Speaker 1: of surrogates. And that's where mister van Pels from the 268 00:15:21,410 --> 00:15:24,890 Speaker 1: other family and hiding comes in because Otto Frank knew 269 00:15:24,890 --> 00:15:28,250 Speaker 1: a few things about marketing and business, and Herman van 270 00:15:28,290 --> 00:15:31,610 Speaker 1: Pell's he knew the trade, he knew the product. In Germany, 271 00:15:31,610 --> 00:15:33,610 Speaker 1: he had a business of his own for years in 272 00:15:33,650 --> 00:15:35,930 Speaker 1: the same sort of product, so he was the expert 273 00:15:36,090 --> 00:15:39,610 Speaker 1: in that respect. So four people from the office staff 274 00:15:39,610 --> 00:15:42,650 Speaker 1: and one man in the warehouse. That's a bit of 275 00:15:42,690 --> 00:15:45,490 Speaker 1: a dramatic thing as well. It was the father of 276 00:15:45,490 --> 00:15:48,090 Speaker 1: one of the office workers was a warehouseman downstairs on 277 00:15:48,130 --> 00:15:50,850 Speaker 1: the ground floor, and he was in on the secret too. 278 00:15:50,890 --> 00:15:53,330 Speaker 1: He was the eyes and ears on the ground basically. 279 00:15:53,650 --> 00:15:56,330 Speaker 1: And he's also the one that built a famous bookcase 280 00:15:56,450 --> 00:15:59,610 Speaker 1: that the camouflaged the door into the hiding place. So 281 00:15:59,930 --> 00:16:02,730 Speaker 1: he provided a lot of safety guiding the front door 282 00:16:02,770 --> 00:16:05,570 Speaker 1: and such. But he fell, oh, he seriously ill. He 283 00:16:05,650 --> 00:16:08,730 Speaker 1: had stomach cancer. He had to leave his job. So 284 00:16:09,170 --> 00:16:11,170 Speaker 1: was another man down there. He wasn't in on the secret, 285 00:16:11,210 --> 00:16:12,690 Speaker 1: and of course they were not going to tell him 286 00:16:12,690 --> 00:16:14,410 Speaker 1: because you don't know what kind of risk you run. 287 00:16:14,810 --> 00:16:17,570 Speaker 1: If you tell a total stranger. So that's when the 288 00:16:17,610 --> 00:16:20,530 Speaker 1: sense of security sort of started to wane a little bit. 289 00:16:20,850 --> 00:16:22,970 Speaker 1: But on the first floor, on the office floor, four 290 00:16:23,090 --> 00:16:25,650 Speaker 1: office workers and the husband of one of them, the 291 00:16:25,730 --> 00:16:28,490 Speaker 1: husband of Mepris. He was a civil servant. He worked 292 00:16:28,530 --> 00:16:30,570 Speaker 1: in the civil service of the city, and he also 293 00:16:30,650 --> 00:16:34,170 Speaker 1: had a position as a commissioner sort of supervisor of 294 00:16:34,250 --> 00:16:37,370 Speaker 1: the board of the business in the building. So you see, 295 00:16:37,490 --> 00:16:40,330 Speaker 1: there is an office building with a company, a serious 296 00:16:40,330 --> 00:16:44,290 Speaker 1: company running there where the management basically is hiding and 297 00:16:44,450 --> 00:16:46,770 Speaker 1: is out of sight. No one knows they're there, and 298 00:16:46,890 --> 00:16:50,250 Speaker 1: it's the staff that's trying to keep things afloat and running. 299 00:16:50,890 --> 00:16:53,970 Speaker 1: And there's a mutual dependence there as well, because the 300 00:16:54,050 --> 00:16:57,850 Speaker 1: people behind the bookcase would secretly do work administrative work 301 00:16:57,970 --> 00:17:00,810 Speaker 1: or packing goods and all sorts of thing to lower 302 00:17:00,810 --> 00:17:03,810 Speaker 1: the expenses of the business. The business was the livelihood 303 00:17:03,850 --> 00:17:07,010 Speaker 1: of the staff, and it was the life insurance for 304 00:17:07,090 --> 00:17:09,570 Speaker 1: the people in hiding there, because if the building was rented, 305 00:17:09,730 --> 00:17:11,890 Speaker 1: if the business should failed to vacate the building and 306 00:17:11,890 --> 00:17:14,930 Speaker 1: they would leave their hiding place. So there's a mutual 307 00:17:14,970 --> 00:17:18,090 Speaker 1: dependence between the corporations and the staff and the people 308 00:17:18,170 --> 00:17:20,930 Speaker 1: hiding on the other side. So you mentioned there was 309 00:17:21,090 --> 00:17:23,650 Speaker 1: four people in the office and then one person in 310 00:17:23,690 --> 00:17:27,210 Speaker 1: the warehouse who sadly is taken ill and so reduces 311 00:17:27,290 --> 00:17:29,890 Speaker 1: that capacity to try and help the Frank family. But 312 00:17:29,930 --> 00:17:32,290 Speaker 1: you also mentioned that there is two families that are 313 00:17:32,290 --> 00:17:36,210 Speaker 1: in hiding, So overall, how many people are being hidden 314 00:17:36,330 --> 00:17:39,490 Speaker 1: in this office building? Aftergether there were eight. There's the 315 00:17:39,570 --> 00:17:42,970 Speaker 1: Frank family, father and moderate, two daughters, and then there's 316 00:17:43,010 --> 00:17:46,370 Speaker 1: the business associate the experts belts that I just mentioned, 317 00:17:46,370 --> 00:17:48,330 Speaker 1: who knew about the trade, who knew about the goods, 318 00:17:48,330 --> 00:17:51,770 Speaker 1: about the commodities, with his wife and son, so that 319 00:17:51,930 --> 00:17:55,010 Speaker 1: seven they were there since July forty two, and then 320 00:17:55,090 --> 00:17:58,410 Speaker 1: in November they took in an eighth man. There was 321 00:17:58,450 --> 00:18:02,050 Speaker 1: a dentist, Fritz Peffer. The tragedy would fitz peffor that 322 00:18:02,650 --> 00:18:06,370 Speaker 1: is that he wanted to marry a non Jewish woman 323 00:18:06,410 --> 00:18:08,930 Speaker 1: in Germany, but he wasn't allowed because of the Nuremberg 324 00:18:09,210 --> 00:18:13,690 Speaker 1: nineteen thirty five laws, and he moved with her to Amsterdam, 325 00:18:13,730 --> 00:18:17,250 Speaker 1: and she always passed as his legal spouse in their 326 00:18:17,290 --> 00:18:22,090 Speaker 1: social surroundings. So basically everyone thought, well, he's well off, 327 00:18:22,130 --> 00:18:24,490 Speaker 1: he's in a mixed marriage. He's not in trouble as 328 00:18:24,490 --> 00:18:28,250 Speaker 1: we are. So when the Frank family and Bells were hiding, 329 00:18:28,250 --> 00:18:31,530 Speaker 1: they who knew him were hiding in their annex in 330 00:18:31,570 --> 00:18:34,770 Speaker 1: their company building. Then they heard that Fitzpefford was in 331 00:18:34,810 --> 00:18:37,730 Speaker 1: trouble too, and that's how they learned that his marriage 332 00:18:37,770 --> 00:18:40,730 Speaker 1: wasn't an actually official marriage, So that is a tragic 333 00:18:40,930 --> 00:18:44,090 Speaker 1: circumstance as well. But then they took him in they 334 00:18:44,130 --> 00:18:46,970 Speaker 1: saw fit to have an eight person there in the building. 335 00:18:47,290 --> 00:18:50,330 Speaker 1: He could also, I suppose, help share expenses, I see. 336 00:18:50,370 --> 00:18:53,890 Speaker 1: So there was a kind of humanitarian decision here to 337 00:18:53,930 --> 00:18:56,290 Speaker 1: just try and help someone in need, but there was 338 00:18:56,330 --> 00:18:58,850 Speaker 1: also a practical side to this as a mean to 339 00:18:58,850 --> 00:19:01,290 Speaker 1: try and help cover the cost of what is now 340 00:19:01,330 --> 00:19:04,490 Speaker 1: a growing expense. At the time that the war is 341 00:19:04,530 --> 00:19:09,050 Speaker 1: also getting pretty tense, pretty severe heightened in terms of 342 00:19:09,210 --> 00:19:13,130 Speaker 1: the amount of violence as being perpetrated across the continent 343 00:19:13,290 --> 00:19:15,490 Speaker 1: and the amount of pressure that is being put on 344 00:19:15,530 --> 00:19:18,810 Speaker 1: the Nazi forces. So it's even harder to get food, 345 00:19:19,170 --> 00:19:22,210 Speaker 1: for example, and so all of this must combine together 346 00:19:22,250 --> 00:19:25,290 Speaker 1: to make as we move through nineteen fifty three and 347 00:19:25,370 --> 00:19:30,370 Speaker 1: into nineteen fifty four are really really difficult period. It's 348 00:19:30,410 --> 00:19:34,890 Speaker 1: also must have been incredibly, incredibly difficult on the mental 349 00:19:34,970 --> 00:19:37,890 Speaker 1: state of those who were in hiding. Now you mentioned 350 00:19:37,930 --> 00:19:41,010 Speaker 1: about the adults who are helping with the business and 351 00:19:41,170 --> 00:19:44,090 Speaker 1: cover some of the extra labor there, But what about 352 00:19:44,130 --> 00:19:46,690 Speaker 1: the kids, What about people like Anne? What were they 353 00:19:46,770 --> 00:19:49,730 Speaker 1: doing in their spare time, learning and reading? That's the 354 00:19:49,810 --> 00:19:52,210 Speaker 1: work for its words to come to mind, but just 355 00:19:52,250 --> 00:19:55,250 Speaker 1: to be precise, also they did some of the work, 356 00:19:55,370 --> 00:19:59,970 Speaker 1: just becking goods and light administrative jobs. But mainly the 357 00:20:00,050 --> 00:20:03,130 Speaker 1: idea was because they were optimistic and they thought there 358 00:20:03,130 --> 00:20:05,490 Speaker 1: were was going to come and end to debt and 359 00:20:05,570 --> 00:20:08,010 Speaker 1: they'd be back in school one day. So they get 360 00:20:08,090 --> 00:20:12,130 Speaker 1: up with their school. They try to learn history, languages 361 00:20:12,170 --> 00:20:15,290 Speaker 1: and do a lot of reading against getting bored. Of 362 00:20:15,290 --> 00:20:18,130 Speaker 1: course they're hanging about and doing nothing and sit that 363 00:20:18,330 --> 00:20:21,610 Speaker 1: day after day. That's my destroying But so reading and 364 00:20:21,690 --> 00:20:26,010 Speaker 1: giving themselves occupied for the children, basically keep up with schoolwork. 365 00:20:26,410 --> 00:20:29,410 Speaker 1: So just trying to keep things as normal as possible 366 00:20:29,650 --> 00:20:32,970 Speaker 1: until the world hopefully goes back to the way it was. 367 00:20:33,010 --> 00:20:36,370 Speaker 1: And also look to the future. Is that what Anne's 368 00:20:36,450 --> 00:20:39,130 Speaker 1: diary is about to you? Is it also about looking 369 00:20:39,170 --> 00:20:42,250 Speaker 1: to the future and trying to envisions the world where 370 00:20:42,250 --> 00:20:44,930 Speaker 1: there is some hope, there's visions of hope, I think. 371 00:20:44,970 --> 00:20:47,490 Speaker 1: But you have to consider also, as I mentioned earlier, 372 00:20:47,610 --> 00:20:51,050 Speaker 1: her manuscript, what you all wrote and scribbled. It's a 373 00:20:51,130 --> 00:20:54,450 Speaker 1: large spile of paper. It's not just one volume as 374 00:20:54,450 --> 00:20:57,610 Speaker 1: a book. So when she starts out writing a diary 375 00:20:57,690 --> 00:21:00,090 Speaker 1: that's even a couple of weeks before she is hiding. 376 00:21:00,730 --> 00:21:03,650 Speaker 1: She starts on her thirteen birthday, when she's still at home. 377 00:21:03,770 --> 00:21:06,810 Speaker 1: And when she starts off as a just thirteen year old, 378 00:21:06,850 --> 00:21:09,250 Speaker 1: you read the writing of a thirteen year old. She 379 00:21:09,330 --> 00:21:11,850 Speaker 1: just knows this, going from this to that, and it's 380 00:21:11,850 --> 00:21:15,610 Speaker 1: about things that she liked, and you see her mature, 381 00:21:16,090 --> 00:21:19,330 Speaker 1: you see your sort of intellectual development there as well. 382 00:21:20,170 --> 00:21:22,730 Speaker 1: At a later stage in time, she's going to rework 383 00:21:22,890 --> 00:21:26,970 Speaker 1: all her writing, all her notes into something that she 384 00:21:27,130 --> 00:21:31,050 Speaker 1: wants to be a novel about her experiences in hiding. 385 00:21:31,530 --> 00:21:34,650 Speaker 1: That's after she hears from the Dutch government in London, 386 00:21:35,090 --> 00:21:38,770 Speaker 1: the Secretary of Education and Sciences I think he's called 387 00:21:38,890 --> 00:21:42,170 Speaker 1: in the exiled a government in London from the Netherlands 388 00:21:42,210 --> 00:21:45,850 Speaker 1: on the radio, the illegal radio, and he says to 389 00:21:45,970 --> 00:21:49,930 Speaker 1: the people in the Netherlands, keep your notebooks, skip your calendars, 390 00:21:49,970 --> 00:21:52,490 Speaker 1: if there's a sermon from a pretuer or a priest, 391 00:21:52,650 --> 00:21:55,930 Speaker 1: just keep that so we can document how daily life, 392 00:21:56,410 --> 00:22:00,290 Speaker 1: how the experiences of the populations were during the occupations. 393 00:22:00,290 --> 00:22:03,250 Speaker 1: And she hears that that's good. I'm going to do that. 394 00:22:03,650 --> 00:22:06,650 Speaker 1: I'm going to write a novel about what I've experienced, 395 00:22:07,410 --> 00:22:09,450 Speaker 1: and so she starts writing that novel. Well, at a 396 00:22:09,530 --> 00:22:11,970 Speaker 1: later stage in nineteen forty four, when she is a 397 00:22:12,010 --> 00:22:14,370 Speaker 1: bit older and she has matured a bit and her 398 00:22:14,410 --> 00:22:18,490 Speaker 1: writing skills are more developed. So that's when you see that, well, 399 00:22:18,490 --> 00:22:21,010 Speaker 1: the talent, basically, the talent for writing and also for 400 00:22:21,090 --> 00:22:24,450 Speaker 1: a journalistic approach comes to light. And it's from those 401 00:22:24,570 --> 00:22:27,170 Speaker 1: chapters that's basically the diary as we know it from 402 00:22:27,210 --> 00:22:31,050 Speaker 1: the bookstores is compiled. Cautionary Tales will return with the 403 00:22:31,090 --> 00:22:38,330 Speaker 1: Warfare Podcast in just a moment, Tim Halford here you're 404 00:22:38,330 --> 00:22:42,810 Speaker 1: listening to the Warfare Podcast, proudly presented by Cautionary Tales. 405 00:22:43,210 --> 00:22:45,890 Speaker 1: And of course, as we move through nineteen forty four 406 00:22:46,290 --> 00:22:50,650 Speaker 1: and up until that infamous date in history, August fourth, 407 00:22:51,130 --> 00:22:55,050 Speaker 1: we see that Anne is still writing that diary. But 408 00:22:55,290 --> 00:22:57,250 Speaker 1: do we know and this is of course quite a 409 00:22:57,370 --> 00:23:01,130 Speaker 1: contentious and controversial question, but do we know how they 410 00:23:01,130 --> 00:23:04,450 Speaker 1: were discovered or why they were discovered, particularly on that 411 00:23:04,570 --> 00:23:07,730 Speaker 1: date on August fourth, nineteen forty four. There's been lots 412 00:23:07,770 --> 00:23:11,170 Speaker 1: of reports recently around this traitor theory. Is a much 413 00:23:11,490 --> 00:23:15,290 Speaker 1: accuracy in that or do we just not quite know 414 00:23:15,490 --> 00:23:18,770 Speaker 1: exactly what happened here? Well, one of the research topics 415 00:23:18,770 --> 00:23:21,850 Speaker 1: that I've been over the years I told you about 416 00:23:22,170 --> 00:23:25,210 Speaker 1: is in particular that while are the circumstances of that 417 00:23:25,450 --> 00:23:29,450 Speaker 1: arrest in my belief for the focus is just very arbitrary. 418 00:23:29,610 --> 00:23:32,410 Speaker 1: But I brought out a research paper in twenty sixteen 419 00:23:32,490 --> 00:23:35,490 Speaker 1: because over time the general idea of the front came 420 00:23:35,610 --> 00:23:37,850 Speaker 1: back in anotherrance in nineteen forty five, and he does 421 00:23:37,890 --> 00:23:39,930 Speaker 1: we were betrayed by someone and we've got to find 422 00:23:39,930 --> 00:23:43,170 Speaker 1: out who. But there was an investigation. It was even 423 00:23:43,210 --> 00:23:46,370 Speaker 1: a court case against the not knowing warehousemen. You know, 424 00:23:46,410 --> 00:23:49,410 Speaker 1: there's the second warehouse men that we just discussed. He 425 00:23:49,490 --> 00:23:52,450 Speaker 1: was acquitted because there was no evidence against him. In 426 00:23:52,490 --> 00:23:55,810 Speaker 1: the nineteen sixties, there was a new investigation after Vicenthal 427 00:23:55,890 --> 00:23:59,930 Speaker 1: had found the SS officer who was present at the arrest, 428 00:24:00,410 --> 00:24:05,250 Speaker 1: and the general assumption is that someone made a treacherous 429 00:24:05,250 --> 00:24:07,610 Speaker 1: phone call to the German authorities at the time, and 430 00:24:07,730 --> 00:24:12,330 Speaker 1: in my investigative sixteen I have shown that that is 431 00:24:12,370 --> 00:24:14,850 Speaker 1: just an assumption and there's no evidence for that. A 432 00:24:14,890 --> 00:24:17,730 Speaker 1: lot of people think, well, Batman said twenty years after 433 00:24:17,770 --> 00:24:19,970 Speaker 1: the fact, that there was a phone call made that morning, 434 00:24:20,410 --> 00:24:23,730 Speaker 1: and so that must be true. However, the man himself 435 00:24:23,770 --> 00:24:26,370 Speaker 1: says in his nineteen sixty three statement, one of the 436 00:24:26,410 --> 00:24:29,210 Speaker 1: first things that he said is, if my memory serves me, well, 437 00:24:29,490 --> 00:24:31,810 Speaker 1: there was a phone call calling in that morning. So 438 00:24:32,250 --> 00:24:34,570 Speaker 1: he is not certain. But for a lot of people 439 00:24:34,850 --> 00:24:38,250 Speaker 1: they took that as evidence and that led to, especially 440 00:24:38,250 --> 00:24:40,610 Speaker 1: over the last thirty years, I think a wild goose 441 00:24:40,690 --> 00:24:44,250 Speaker 1: Chase roommate that phone call, and I think I've shown 442 00:24:44,250 --> 00:24:47,090 Speaker 1: in my investigative report that that phone call is not 443 00:24:47,210 --> 00:24:50,330 Speaker 1: certain at all in the first place. And there's other 444 00:24:50,410 --> 00:24:54,610 Speaker 1: avenues of thinking about scenarios that have led to the 445 00:24:54,730 --> 00:24:58,010 Speaker 1: visiting of a Dutch and German policeman on that day. 446 00:24:58,370 --> 00:25:01,570 Speaker 1: For instance, you also pointed out that the supply of 447 00:25:01,690 --> 00:25:04,130 Speaker 1: foods was a large problem in this cause, you know, 448 00:25:04,210 --> 00:25:06,930 Speaker 1: people hiding, people are cut off from the civil society. 449 00:25:07,490 --> 00:25:12,810 Speaker 1: Food supplies are over seen, supervised and distributed by the authorities, 450 00:25:13,210 --> 00:25:16,810 Speaker 1: and strictly regulated. So if you're off the grid, if 451 00:25:16,810 --> 00:25:19,330 Speaker 1: you don't have ties with the civic administration anymore, so 452 00:25:19,530 --> 00:25:22,530 Speaker 1: you have to be fraudulent to get food, you have 453 00:25:22,570 --> 00:25:25,490 Speaker 1: to be fraudulent to be supplied, so you make yourself 454 00:25:25,610 --> 00:25:30,330 Speaker 1: vulnerable to all sorts of detection. And what's this investigation 455 00:25:30,610 --> 00:25:34,290 Speaker 1: of the former FBI man and his team has grossly 456 00:25:34,370 --> 00:25:39,010 Speaker 1: neglected and willfully I believe overlooked, is that earlier in 457 00:25:39,130 --> 00:25:42,770 Speaker 1: nineteen forty four, already two people from the company in 458 00:25:42,810 --> 00:25:47,450 Speaker 1: that building were arrested for fraudulent trading of food coupons. 459 00:25:47,650 --> 00:25:51,010 Speaker 1: So German authorities had already sniffed on the building and 460 00:25:51,130 --> 00:25:53,730 Speaker 1: sniffed on the company in there a couple of months 461 00:25:53,770 --> 00:25:57,530 Speaker 1: prior to that rate. And there's no proof at this 462 00:25:57,610 --> 00:25:59,930 Speaker 1: moment that I know that there is a connection between 463 00:25:59,970 --> 00:26:02,850 Speaker 1: those two events, but I don't think it's very far 464 00:26:02,930 --> 00:26:06,250 Speaker 1: fast to assume that. I think it's very light headed 465 00:26:06,410 --> 00:26:09,530 Speaker 1: of the Rosemary Sullivan book to just plainly ignore it 466 00:26:09,570 --> 00:26:11,850 Speaker 1: at And I think that's because they want to point 467 00:26:11,890 --> 00:26:14,410 Speaker 1: out the corporate in a scenario where there's no corporate 468 00:26:14,650 --> 00:26:18,010 Speaker 1: but they were merely accidentally caught up in the police 469 00:26:18,050 --> 00:26:22,530 Speaker 1: investigation totally unrelated to their presence, just don't serve that purpose. 470 00:26:22,930 --> 00:26:25,610 Speaker 1: So is it more practical than that? And of course 471 00:26:25,930 --> 00:26:28,410 Speaker 1: those who want to find a culprit don't want to 472 00:26:28,450 --> 00:26:32,210 Speaker 1: deal in the more basic and I suppose boring practicalities 473 00:26:32,210 --> 00:26:34,370 Speaker 1: of these things. But could we go as start to 474 00:26:34,410 --> 00:26:37,650 Speaker 1: say it was? It was almost inevitable in this case 475 00:26:37,690 --> 00:26:40,250 Speaker 1: because when you are trying to feed so many people, 476 00:26:40,250 --> 00:26:42,890 Speaker 1: and as we said, as the screws are being tightened 477 00:26:42,930 --> 00:26:45,890 Speaker 1: on all levels of society, as rationing is getting harder, 478 00:26:46,130 --> 00:26:48,610 Speaker 1: as it becomes more difficult for people to live withinside 479 00:26:48,650 --> 00:26:51,890 Speaker 1: the system, let alone outside it, there would have been 480 00:26:52,170 --> 00:26:55,250 Speaker 1: something that flashed up, something that would have given them away. 481 00:26:55,690 --> 00:26:59,650 Speaker 1: That's exactly it. And so my thesis is, although not 482 00:26:59,690 --> 00:27:03,130 Speaker 1: to be proven until yet, that the company Hissenko was 483 00:27:03,250 --> 00:27:06,850 Speaker 1: under screwed ay from the authorities because their salesman had 484 00:27:06,890 --> 00:27:09,850 Speaker 1: been proven to be fraudulent, one of them even convicted 485 00:27:09,850 --> 00:27:12,810 Speaker 1: for other nineteen forty four. So it's not far fetched. 486 00:27:12,850 --> 00:27:16,610 Speaker 1: There was a detective unit, a nationwide working detective unit 487 00:27:16,650 --> 00:27:20,410 Speaker 1: that specialized in this sort of fraud, and they've been 488 00:27:21,130 --> 00:27:23,690 Speaker 1: searching places all over the country and it's more than 489 00:27:23,770 --> 00:27:27,650 Speaker 1: once that they came across Jews hiding there as well. 490 00:27:27,690 --> 00:27:30,210 Speaker 1: They weren't looking for them. They were looking for people 491 00:27:30,290 --> 00:27:33,690 Speaker 1: that were slaughtering livestock or illegally, people that were trading 492 00:27:33,770 --> 00:27:37,490 Speaker 1: in food coup people that were fraudulent with food rations. 493 00:27:37,890 --> 00:27:40,810 Speaker 1: So I guess there's a good chance that has happened, 494 00:27:40,810 --> 00:27:42,810 Speaker 1: and not a lot of people in the nettles realizes 495 00:27:43,130 --> 00:27:46,730 Speaker 1: that that was a big danger for hidden Jews as well. 496 00:27:47,010 --> 00:27:49,650 Speaker 1: The general idea is for you hide somewhere in an 497 00:27:49,650 --> 00:27:51,610 Speaker 1: ethic or in the basement or in the back room, 498 00:27:51,650 --> 00:27:54,010 Speaker 1: and you hope that the neighbors won't give you away. 499 00:27:54,370 --> 00:27:56,970 Speaker 1: But there's a lot of more things that are jeopardizing 500 00:27:57,090 --> 00:28:00,090 Speaker 1: your secret presence anywhere. Well, I suppose that this is 501 00:28:00,130 --> 00:28:03,770 Speaker 1: all but one side of the story, because no matter 502 00:28:03,810 --> 00:28:07,810 Speaker 1: how they were discovered, it sets into action a series 503 00:28:07,930 --> 00:28:12,130 Speaker 1: of tragic vents from that August date in forty four. 504 00:28:12,650 --> 00:28:15,770 Speaker 1: So tell us what happened to the Frank family. Where 505 00:28:15,770 --> 00:28:19,850 Speaker 1: were they taken upon being discovered. Yes, it's a good 506 00:28:19,890 --> 00:28:22,010 Speaker 1: point that you made before the outcome. It doesn't matter 507 00:28:22,050 --> 00:28:26,090 Speaker 1: whether it betrayed or found by coincidence. The outcome is 508 00:28:26,090 --> 00:28:28,730 Speaker 1: still the same. So what happened for them. Is that 509 00:28:28,770 --> 00:28:31,410 Speaker 1: they were taken to a German bureau where they were 510 00:28:31,450 --> 00:28:36,490 Speaker 1: briefly interrogated and then brought to a remanked prison right 511 00:28:36,530 --> 00:28:38,650 Speaker 1: in the middle of Umstergum. There they were locked up 512 00:28:38,690 --> 00:28:41,650 Speaker 1: with other Jews that were arrested recently. So that's what 513 00:28:41,770 --> 00:28:43,930 Speaker 1: they did at the time. They had a sort of 514 00:28:44,090 --> 00:28:46,690 Speaker 1: holding facility there and they would hold the people in 515 00:28:46,730 --> 00:28:49,250 Speaker 1: there and once they had a number of seventy or 516 00:28:49,250 --> 00:28:51,050 Speaker 1: eighty or so, they would take them to the transit 517 00:28:51,130 --> 00:28:54,770 Speaker 1: camp Westerbourg in the north northeast of the country. So 518 00:28:54,890 --> 00:28:57,530 Speaker 1: there was a concentration camp or a trensit camp as 519 00:28:57,570 --> 00:28:59,770 Speaker 1: it was called, where where the Jewish population of the 520 00:28:59,810 --> 00:29:02,530 Speaker 1: Netherlands was brought over time bit by bit, and from 521 00:29:02,530 --> 00:29:06,490 Speaker 1: where the deportation strains left. And so they arrived there 522 00:29:06,570 --> 00:29:09,930 Speaker 1: in August eighth, nineteen forty four, four days of being arrested, 523 00:29:10,210 --> 00:29:13,170 Speaker 1: and on September three, just a couple of weeks later, 524 00:29:13,570 --> 00:29:16,010 Speaker 1: they were taking in the train with the profitabial cattle 525 00:29:16,090 --> 00:29:18,770 Speaker 1: cars to Auschwitz. They were on the last train to 526 00:29:18,810 --> 00:29:22,530 Speaker 1: leave the Netherlands for Auswitch. The last train to leave 527 00:29:22,570 --> 00:29:26,290 Speaker 1: the Netherlands for Auschwitz. Now that is a powerful sentence 528 00:29:26,690 --> 00:29:30,050 Speaker 1: what happened to all of those who were found After 529 00:29:30,090 --> 00:29:32,530 Speaker 1: that train had left, they were brought to invest Bordock 530 00:29:32,570 --> 00:29:35,410 Speaker 1: as well, and there were people left behind invest Borck 531 00:29:35,610 --> 00:29:39,290 Speaker 1: as well. And the next day, on September four, there 532 00:29:39,370 --> 00:29:42,290 Speaker 1: was also our train leaving, but they didn't go to Auschwitz, 533 00:29:42,850 --> 00:29:45,930 Speaker 1: but to tradition, starts in what now is Czechia, the 534 00:29:45,930 --> 00:29:49,290 Speaker 1: Czech Republic, and that wasn't exactly walk in the park, 535 00:29:49,410 --> 00:29:52,810 Speaker 1: but Elway was different from Auschwitz. So there were a 536 00:29:52,850 --> 00:29:55,250 Speaker 1: lot of people left behind Investor Bork and it was 537 00:29:55,290 --> 00:29:58,130 Speaker 1: liberated by I think the Canadians or the Poles in 538 00:29:58,250 --> 00:30:02,250 Speaker 1: April nineteen forty five, so they found I think about 539 00:30:02,250 --> 00:30:05,890 Speaker 1: eight or nine hundred people still alive there. So we 540 00:30:06,010 --> 00:30:08,930 Speaker 1: know that the Frank family are taken off to Auschwitz. 541 00:30:09,210 --> 00:30:11,970 Speaker 1: Do we know much about their time there, what life 542 00:30:12,370 --> 00:30:14,930 Speaker 1: was like for Otto, for Anna and for the rest 543 00:30:15,010 --> 00:30:17,690 Speaker 1: of the family. Well, Otto Frank is the only one 544 00:30:17,770 --> 00:30:19,970 Speaker 1: who is a five to live to tell the tale, 545 00:30:20,090 --> 00:30:21,930 Speaker 1: but we do know a few things about them. There 546 00:30:22,010 --> 00:30:24,290 Speaker 1: was other people that have survived now which have seen 547 00:30:24,330 --> 00:30:26,250 Speaker 1: them there as well. I'd have met them there as well, 548 00:30:26,290 --> 00:30:29,970 Speaker 1: so they can tell quite a few things about that. Well. 549 00:30:30,010 --> 00:30:33,010 Speaker 1: At first at a rifle at Birkenau at the Rumper. 550 00:30:33,050 --> 00:30:35,570 Speaker 1: So I'll just gets a well known picture with their 551 00:30:35,610 --> 00:30:38,290 Speaker 1: watchtower and the trains coming down. And the first thing 552 00:30:38,330 --> 00:30:40,810 Speaker 1: that happens is that men and women are separated. So 553 00:30:41,170 --> 00:30:44,610 Speaker 1: Otto Frank was separated from his wife and daughters, Herman 554 00:30:44,730 --> 00:30:47,770 Speaker 1: van Pels was and his son was separated from their 555 00:30:48,810 --> 00:30:52,410 Speaker 1: wife and mother. And Fritz Peffort, being on his own 556 00:30:52,650 --> 00:30:55,370 Speaker 1: from this little group, was with the other men. Of course, 557 00:30:55,490 --> 00:30:58,610 Speaker 1: So the women remained in birken now and the men 558 00:30:58,690 --> 00:31:01,450 Speaker 1: were marched, after being tattooed and shaven, and all that 559 00:31:01,850 --> 00:31:05,130 Speaker 1: marched to what's called the stam Lager Auschwitz one and 560 00:31:05,170 --> 00:31:07,250 Speaker 1: they were set to work. They had to dig gravel 561 00:31:07,330 --> 00:31:10,650 Speaker 1: from a river and make roads, sort of that that 562 00:31:10,810 --> 00:31:13,730 Speaker 1: hard labor had. One from Bells was the first one 563 00:31:13,850 --> 00:31:17,090 Speaker 1: I think to die. So he injured his hand during 564 00:31:17,130 --> 00:31:20,170 Speaker 1: work and he asked to be relieved or work for 565 00:31:20,210 --> 00:31:22,770 Speaker 1: some days, and he was grumped that relieved. But then 566 00:31:23,010 --> 00:31:25,530 Speaker 1: the risk that you run then is that you're just 567 00:31:25,610 --> 00:31:28,370 Speaker 1: at the barracks being useless. In every couple of weeks 568 00:31:28,730 --> 00:31:31,330 Speaker 1: all those useless people were round up and murdered, and 569 00:31:31,890 --> 00:31:34,810 Speaker 1: we don't know exactly how and went, but somewhere early 570 00:31:35,010 --> 00:31:37,930 Speaker 1: October he must have died, and he's probably guessed with 571 00:31:37,930 --> 00:31:42,810 Speaker 1: a lot of other people. His son survived until January 572 00:31:42,890 --> 00:31:47,050 Speaker 1: when the dead marches started from Auschwitz, so everyone who 573 00:31:47,090 --> 00:31:50,930 Speaker 1: could walk was forced to walk, and he was taken 574 00:31:52,490 --> 00:31:55,410 Speaker 1: fifty kilometers or so and put on a train and 575 00:31:55,610 --> 00:31:59,370 Speaker 1: ended up in Mauthausen in Austria, and that's where he died, 576 00:31:59,570 --> 00:32:03,650 Speaker 1: totally exhausted and malnourished. Around the day of liberation actually 577 00:32:03,690 --> 00:32:07,330 Speaker 1: in May nineteen forty five, Americans were already on the threshold, 578 00:32:07,370 --> 00:32:10,410 Speaker 1: but not too late for him. It's Prefet was a dentist, 579 00:32:10,650 --> 00:32:14,130 Speaker 1: and he left Auschwitz with a bit of a mystery still, 580 00:32:14,170 --> 00:32:17,130 Speaker 1: but with a group of auto medical professionals at least 581 00:32:17,170 --> 00:32:19,530 Speaker 1: twenty or so. We don't know for what purpose. But 582 00:32:19,810 --> 00:32:22,570 Speaker 1: he ended up in the no Incomic camp near Hamburg, 583 00:32:22,850 --> 00:32:26,690 Speaker 1: and that's where he died of andro colitis in December 584 00:32:26,930 --> 00:32:30,890 Speaker 1: nineteen forty four already and then the women in Birkenal 585 00:32:31,450 --> 00:32:35,690 Speaker 1: aid it from died on early January nineteen forty five. 586 00:32:35,730 --> 00:32:38,330 Speaker 1: There's a witness, a friend that she made that had witnessed, 587 00:32:38,370 --> 00:32:40,930 Speaker 1: that had taught that to the front. Later on she 588 00:32:41,010 --> 00:32:44,570 Speaker 1: did survive, and in November forty four already she was 589 00:32:44,610 --> 00:32:48,890 Speaker 1: separated from her daughters because at that point the Nazis 590 00:32:48,970 --> 00:32:53,930 Speaker 1: started to move large numbers of women, Dutch and French 591 00:32:54,010 --> 00:32:58,970 Speaker 1: mainly and some Hungarians from outswitch back into Germany proper 592 00:32:59,690 --> 00:33:03,170 Speaker 1: to a camp where they could just at all along, 593 00:33:03,250 --> 00:33:06,090 Speaker 1: as the German words, it just get fixed up a 594 00:33:06,090 --> 00:33:08,970 Speaker 1: little bit, because they were still fit enough to work 595 00:33:09,170 --> 00:33:12,290 Speaker 1: in the war industry. All the german Men were fighting 596 00:33:12,290 --> 00:33:15,090 Speaker 1: on the front at that time, and the factory should 597 00:33:15,130 --> 00:33:17,810 Speaker 1: still be running because the war and effort was tremendous, 598 00:33:18,410 --> 00:33:20,810 Speaker 1: so these women were to put it to work in 599 00:33:20,890 --> 00:33:24,290 Speaker 1: all those factories had aided. Frank was not fit enough 600 00:33:24,330 --> 00:33:26,970 Speaker 1: to go with them, so the girls were separated from her. 601 00:33:27,530 --> 00:33:30,250 Speaker 1: She stayed behind the aushoots and she with it a 602 00:33:30,330 --> 00:33:32,050 Speaker 1: way I guess there is she was here and mel 603 00:33:32,130 --> 00:33:36,010 Speaker 1: nourrised as well and died. So then missus van Bells 604 00:33:36,010 --> 00:33:39,250 Speaker 1: and the girls on Maho they were moved to beerhan Belsen. 605 00:33:39,610 --> 00:33:41,610 Speaker 1: There was the camp where they should have been patched 606 00:33:41,690 --> 00:33:44,050 Speaker 1: up a little bit and then distributed over all the 607 00:33:44,090 --> 00:33:46,890 Speaker 1: parts of Germany to set to work. But the front 608 00:33:46,890 --> 00:33:49,610 Speaker 1: lines kept shifting and shifting, and one railway line after 609 00:33:49,690 --> 00:33:52,610 Speaker 1: another was cut off, and so that whole idea didn't 610 00:33:52,610 --> 00:33:55,850 Speaker 1: work out that very well in the end, and that's 611 00:33:55,850 --> 00:33:59,530 Speaker 1: why benhan Belson wasn't by early nineteen forty five sort 612 00:33:59,530 --> 00:34:04,370 Speaker 1: of warehouse overcrowded with ten thousands of people who had 613 00:34:04,410 --> 00:34:08,570 Speaker 1: no food, no healthcare and hanging about to die, basically 614 00:34:08,770 --> 00:34:12,850 Speaker 1: lots of them, and only missus vampells to be complete. 615 00:34:13,370 --> 00:34:15,290 Speaker 1: She was put on the train and put to work 616 00:34:15,330 --> 00:34:18,930 Speaker 1: in a little factory near Deathsau And after a couple 617 00:34:18,970 --> 00:34:21,010 Speaker 1: of weeks she and a lot of other women were 618 00:34:21,170 --> 00:34:25,570 Speaker 1: moved further towards the sat racing starting the now Czech 619 00:34:25,610 --> 00:34:28,450 Speaker 1: Republic again, and she died on the way. There's people 620 00:34:28,850 --> 00:34:32,250 Speaker 1: have been people testimony that she died on that train 621 00:34:32,330 --> 00:34:34,610 Speaker 1: and they left her behind by the tracks during one 622 00:34:34,610 --> 00:34:37,570 Speaker 1: of the stops. Had Anna Markot, as we well know, 623 00:34:37,810 --> 00:34:42,930 Speaker 1: somewhere in February contracted Tye Ford fever and transmitted by 624 00:34:43,250 --> 00:34:47,130 Speaker 1: vice in clothing, in Hewart's clothing, and thousands of thousands 625 00:34:47,130 --> 00:34:49,930 Speaker 1: of people in backam bells and died of that cause. 626 00:34:50,170 --> 00:34:54,130 Speaker 1: And they did too. Otto Frank in the end, he 627 00:34:54,290 --> 00:34:58,730 Speaker 1: was in the sick Bay in Auschwitz, where he luckily survived. 628 00:34:58,930 --> 00:35:00,570 Speaker 1: Being in the sit bay was a bit of a 629 00:35:00,570 --> 00:35:03,930 Speaker 1: death sentence really, but a couple of hundreds that did 630 00:35:03,970 --> 00:35:08,130 Speaker 1: survive that, and they were liberated by the Russians Sophiet army, 631 00:35:08,170 --> 00:35:10,650 Speaker 1: I should say, they were craniums and all sorts of 632 00:35:10,890 --> 00:35:13,890 Speaker 1: Selfiet soldiers in dead army and deliberated the camp and 633 00:35:13,930 --> 00:35:17,690 Speaker 1: death was how you were saved. And you mentioned bergen Belson, 634 00:35:17,730 --> 00:35:20,050 Speaker 1: of course, which was liberated by the British on the 635 00:35:20,090 --> 00:35:22,810 Speaker 1: fifteenth of April forty five. And like you say, I 636 00:35:22,850 --> 00:35:27,010 Speaker 1: mean the scenes, they're thousands of bodies lay and buried 637 00:35:27,010 --> 00:35:33,210 Speaker 1: around the camp. What's sixty seventy thousand people starving, mortally ill, 638 00:35:33,370 --> 00:35:38,850 Speaker 1: packed together without food, water, basic sanitation, suffering from various 639 00:35:38,890 --> 00:35:44,650 Speaker 1: different types of diseases, typhus, dysentery. I mean, truly a terrible, 640 00:35:44,890 --> 00:35:48,250 Speaker 1: terrible place to be and highlights the stark reality of 641 00:35:48,290 --> 00:35:52,090 Speaker 1: the end of the war and of the Holocaust. And 642 00:35:52,210 --> 00:35:55,210 Speaker 1: you mentioned that Otto is the only one to survive. 643 00:35:56,250 --> 00:36:00,570 Speaker 1: How did it come to be that we're able to 644 00:36:00,610 --> 00:36:03,450 Speaker 1: talk about this today, that we're able to hear about 645 00:36:03,490 --> 00:36:08,490 Speaker 1: the Frank story, that we're able to read A's diary, Yes, 646 00:36:08,570 --> 00:36:11,810 Speaker 1: with the he was left behind at the arrests and 647 00:36:12,170 --> 00:36:14,810 Speaker 1: scattered all over the floor of that paper. That is 648 00:36:14,850 --> 00:36:17,650 Speaker 1: a well known story that the German officer present at 649 00:36:17,690 --> 00:36:20,650 Speaker 1: the scene he needed something to put the valuables that 650 00:36:20,690 --> 00:36:25,010 Speaker 1: he confiscated in, and Otto Frank kept his daughter's papers 651 00:36:25,050 --> 00:36:28,370 Speaker 1: in his briefcase during the night, so he scattered around 652 00:36:28,490 --> 00:36:31,690 Speaker 1: around the floor to put the valuables in. And the helpers, 653 00:36:31,770 --> 00:36:34,850 Speaker 1: the office staff, the women that were not arrested that day, 654 00:36:35,250 --> 00:36:37,370 Speaker 1: they picked up all those papers in the days after, 655 00:36:37,450 --> 00:36:39,490 Speaker 1: and they kept it to give it back to Anna 656 00:36:39,570 --> 00:36:42,210 Speaker 1: when she would come back. Well, she didn't, but then 657 00:36:42,210 --> 00:36:45,330 Speaker 1: Otto did. And when it was clear that Otto was 658 00:36:45,370 --> 00:36:47,930 Speaker 1: the only one and all the others had died, they 659 00:36:47,970 --> 00:36:51,130 Speaker 1: handed over all the paperwork to him. So Otto Frank 660 00:36:51,250 --> 00:36:53,250 Speaker 1: took that and it took him a while before he 661 00:36:53,290 --> 00:36:55,650 Speaker 1: could set himself to actually reading it, a couple of 662 00:36:55,770 --> 00:36:58,770 Speaker 1: months actually, to the end of nineteen forty five. And 663 00:36:58,850 --> 00:37:01,690 Speaker 1: when he started reading it, and he somehow found out 664 00:37:01,890 --> 00:37:05,450 Speaker 1: that she parts of that book he had intended for publication. 665 00:37:05,530 --> 00:37:07,170 Speaker 1: There was her dream. She wanted to be a writer 666 00:37:07,250 --> 00:37:10,010 Speaker 1: and a journalist, and she wanted to published that book, 667 00:37:10,210 --> 00:37:12,850 Speaker 1: So that gave him the thought, I think, and I 668 00:37:12,930 --> 00:37:14,850 Speaker 1: think it's fair to say that it was for him 669 00:37:14,850 --> 00:37:17,850 Speaker 1: the sense of purpose again. So his family gone, his 670 00:37:17,930 --> 00:37:22,090 Speaker 1: social circle gone, his daughters, his wife, his business down 671 00:37:22,090 --> 00:37:23,970 Speaker 1: on the ground, and he had to rebuild. He sort 672 00:37:23,970 --> 00:37:28,970 Speaker 1: of reinvent himself and rebuilding whole life and having that 673 00:37:29,130 --> 00:37:33,330 Speaker 1: book and the ideals that well, he says, I want 674 00:37:33,370 --> 00:37:36,210 Speaker 1: to spread my daughter's ideals. I don't know exactly, to 675 00:37:36,250 --> 00:37:39,530 Speaker 1: be honest, what those ideals or but there is something 676 00:37:39,570 --> 00:37:42,690 Speaker 1: about hoping about reconciliation, that we should be good and 677 00:37:42,770 --> 00:37:44,730 Speaker 1: people should be good for each other, and we should 678 00:37:44,770 --> 00:37:47,530 Speaker 1: build a better world as a general idea. I think 679 00:37:47,570 --> 00:37:50,410 Speaker 1: that's the ideals that he mentioned, and he worked for that. 680 00:37:50,650 --> 00:37:54,010 Speaker 1: So he found a new purpose in life in the 681 00:37:54,130 --> 00:37:58,050 Speaker 1: idea of reconciliation. Bring back the youths of all corners 682 00:37:58,050 --> 00:38:00,570 Speaker 1: of the world and bring them together and let them 683 00:38:00,610 --> 00:38:02,450 Speaker 1: talk and let them meet each other, let them get 684 00:38:02,450 --> 00:38:05,450 Speaker 1: to know each order, so we can avoid this sort 685 00:38:05,450 --> 00:38:09,370 Speaker 1: of calamities and disasters in the future. I think we 686 00:38:09,410 --> 00:38:11,930 Speaker 1: look at the world today that wasn't very successful, but 687 00:38:12,250 --> 00:38:17,010 Speaker 1: still the idea is good. And after the diary became 688 00:38:17,050 --> 00:38:19,930 Speaker 1: a success in particularly in the United States, so it's 689 00:38:20,290 --> 00:38:22,210 Speaker 1: in the Netherlands. It was quite a success as well. 690 00:38:22,290 --> 00:38:25,450 Speaker 1: The first he was first printed in June nineteen forty 691 00:38:25,490 --> 00:38:27,810 Speaker 1: five and the second print was already in December, so 692 00:38:27,890 --> 00:38:30,290 Speaker 1: there was a lot of public interest I think for 693 00:38:30,370 --> 00:38:34,690 Speaker 1: the book, but it really two wins in the United States, 694 00:38:34,770 --> 00:38:36,450 Speaker 1: and then there was a stage play in the US 695 00:38:36,530 --> 00:38:39,650 Speaker 1: and it was a film made by George Stevens in 696 00:38:39,690 --> 00:38:43,250 Speaker 1: the US, so there was international acclaim and international interest 697 00:38:43,330 --> 00:38:46,690 Speaker 1: as well. And when the interest for his daughter's diary 698 00:38:46,770 --> 00:38:50,810 Speaker 1: grew internationally, he had the idea also of maintaining the 699 00:38:50,890 --> 00:38:54,690 Speaker 1: building where it had all happened. It was a derelict building, 700 00:38:54,730 --> 00:38:58,610 Speaker 1: it was always collapsing, so he took initiatives to preserve 701 00:38:58,690 --> 00:39:02,410 Speaker 1: that building and to do it up again and made 702 00:39:02,410 --> 00:39:05,330 Speaker 1: that all those meetings, that's where the youth from the 703 00:39:05,370 --> 00:39:07,530 Speaker 1: world could meet, that should be in that place in 704 00:39:07,610 --> 00:39:11,130 Speaker 1: his opinion, and that's he worked for and that's what 705 00:39:11,330 --> 00:39:14,330 Speaker 1: he actually realized as well. In the nineteen sixties, when 706 00:39:14,330 --> 00:39:16,410 Speaker 1: the Anna franc House was just open for the public, 707 00:39:16,930 --> 00:39:19,530 Speaker 1: it was every year. There was also a youth center 708 00:39:19,690 --> 00:39:22,970 Speaker 1: connected to it, and every year from nineteen sixty sixty 709 00:39:23,010 --> 00:39:27,330 Speaker 1: one sixty the seventies or so, there were annual youth conferences, 710 00:39:27,450 --> 00:39:29,930 Speaker 1: just students coming from all over the world and discussing 711 00:39:29,970 --> 00:39:32,690 Speaker 1: all sorts of things, a bad fight in South Africa, 712 00:39:32,930 --> 00:39:35,650 Speaker 1: the civil rights moving in the US, the Vietnam War, 713 00:39:36,730 --> 00:39:39,610 Speaker 1: all sorts of topics that people discuss. They want to 714 00:39:39,650 --> 00:39:42,290 Speaker 1: make the world a better place. So I think that's 715 00:39:42,370 --> 00:39:45,050 Speaker 1: why we can still visit that to day, and that's 716 00:39:45,090 --> 00:39:49,850 Speaker 1: exactly where Anne's message lives on, that push for hope 717 00:39:49,690 --> 00:39:53,210 Speaker 1: and reconciliation around the world, although as we hear on 718 00:39:53,530 --> 00:39:57,810 Speaker 1: this podcast all too often, it's very very difficult to 719 00:39:57,850 --> 00:40:02,170 Speaker 1: achieve in reality, it seems, but we need those spaces 720 00:40:02,250 --> 00:40:05,090 Speaker 1: just like the Anne Frank House where those discussions can 721 00:40:05,130 --> 00:40:08,250 Speaker 1: take place. Gerten, thank you so much for your time 722 00:40:08,250 --> 00:40:10,650 Speaker 1: and for coming on the pub cast today. Please tell 723 00:40:10,690 --> 00:40:13,490 Speaker 1: us about where people can read more of your work 724 00:40:13,770 --> 00:40:16,090 Speaker 1: and how they can engage in the work of the 725 00:40:16,130 --> 00:40:19,010 Speaker 1: Anne Frank House. The best way to go well is 726 00:40:19,050 --> 00:40:22,810 Speaker 1: go to the website on a franc dot org. You 727 00:40:22,850 --> 00:40:25,450 Speaker 1: can all find all sorts of information of the activities 728 00:40:25,530 --> 00:40:28,930 Speaker 1: of the Other Frank House, and there's also in that 729 00:40:29,170 --> 00:40:32,410 Speaker 1: you can find you can look for the research various 730 00:40:32,450 --> 00:40:34,890 Speaker 1: research report that I wrote or that some of my 731 00:40:34,970 --> 00:40:38,930 Speaker 1: colleagues wrote. You can find an investigative report about the arrests. 732 00:40:39,210 --> 00:40:42,610 Speaker 1: You can find an article that I go authored with 733 00:40:42,650 --> 00:40:46,250 Speaker 1: an American colleague about the immigration attempt into the US. 734 00:40:46,370 --> 00:40:49,010 Speaker 1: You can find all sorts of information there and also 735 00:40:49,370 --> 00:40:52,610 Speaker 1: thinks you can possibly do yourself well. Gerton, thank you 736 00:40:52,650 --> 00:40:54,850 Speaker 1: so much for your time today, and if you'll continued 737 00:40:54,930 --> 00:40:58,730 Speaker 1: research on this topic, you're always welcome on the Warfare podcast. 738 00:40:59,010 --> 00:41:02,250 Speaker 1: Thank you as my pleasure. That was James Rodgers, host 739 00:41:02,370 --> 00:41:05,170 Speaker 1: of the Warfare Podcast. If you liked it, you know 740 00:41:05,210 --> 00:41:08,850 Speaker 1: what to do and Cautionary Tales will return next week