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Speaker 1: Fellow conspiracy realist. We're returning with an extra classic episode

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Speaker 1: for you this week. Back in twenty twenty yield D's

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Speaker 1: of the Pandemic, we got super into hidden history and

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Speaker 1: we were we were fascinated by the concept of the

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Speaker 1: Dead Sea Scrolls.

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Speaker 2: Oh, yes, the scrolls found in the Dead Sea in a.

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Speaker 3: Cave creatively named Why isn't a cave part of the name,

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Speaker 3: it should be the Dead Sea Cave Scrolls.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's true, it's true. I feel like a missed

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Speaker 2: opportunity there, this one.

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Speaker 3: These are ancient biblical artifacts, correct, containing early translations of

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Speaker 3: biblical material.

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Speaker 1: Guys, no, me I am. I might be characterizing it grossly.

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Speaker 1: It's it's weird because they weren't discovered until the nineteen forties.

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Speaker 1: They were languishing in historical obscurity until a lucky encounter

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Speaker 1: by some nerdy splunkers just wanted to say, SPLUNKI. But

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Speaker 1: there's one scroll amid the collection. It was discovered in

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Speaker 1: nineteen fifty two, and it's unique. It doesn't have religious information.

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Speaker 1: It doesn't you know, like you're saying, no, it doesn't

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Speaker 1: recount earlier stories from the area. Instead, it appears to

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Speaker 1: be a kind of treasure map. It's also the only

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Speaker 1: scroll written on copper, which is weird.

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Speaker 4: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies, history is

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Speaker 4: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

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Speaker 4: learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A

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Speaker 4: production of iHeart Radios How Stuff Works.

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Speaker 2: Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt.

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Speaker 1: They call me Ben. We are joined as always with

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Speaker 1: our super producer Paul Mission control decond. Most importantly, you

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Speaker 1: are here, and that may this stuff they don't want

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Speaker 1: you to know. This is this is a bit of

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Speaker 1: an Indiana Jones episode for us.

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Speaker 5: Man.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, come on, I know, especially you and I

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Speaker 2: love the Indiana Jones stuff.

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Speaker 1: Oh yes, immensely, immensely. And I believe we may have

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Speaker 1: talked before. I don't know whether it was on air

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Speaker 1: off air, about which of the four you know would

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Speaker 1: be our personal favorites. I gotta say, man, I blame

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Speaker 1: it on the time in life that I saw it.

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Speaker 1: But last Crusade, Yeah yeah, head and shoulders above, streets ahead,

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Speaker 1: as they would say on the former TV show Community.

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Speaker 2: Yeah exactly. I can see. I can see that argument.

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Speaker 2: And you know, I generally I would have agreed with

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Speaker 2: you until I saw the Crystal Skulls. Yeah, that's was like,

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Speaker 2: this is a masterpiece, right.

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Speaker 1: Oh man, especially the ninja that.

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Speaker 2: Up here, the ninjas. For me, it's all about that refrigerator.

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Speaker 2: I can't. I mean, that's yea. What better piece of

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Speaker 2: cinema is there? I challenge you to show me a

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Speaker 2: better piece of American cinema.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, even spawned the phrase nuking the fridge, Right's right? Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And you know, one thing I like about that film series,

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Speaker 1: especially in Crystal Skull, is that they include realistic survival advice.

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Speaker 1: You know, fridges aren't just for food.

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Speaker 2: It's lined with lead sun and plus it's padded, very

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Speaker 2: very padded.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you know what I did overall enjoy it and

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Speaker 1: we you know, the fascinating thing about the concept of

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Speaker 1: Indiana Jones, which is far from perfect, of course, is

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Speaker 1: that it inspired a lot of people to become actual archaeologists.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely right. It made it seem a whole ton more

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Speaker 2: exciting than the job actually ends up being.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, there are a couple of scenes, very sparsely painted

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Speaker 1: scenes in which he is ending a class or something, you.

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Speaker 2: Know, exactly exactly.

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Speaker 1: It's true also that Indiana. Jones was created or inspired

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Speaker 1: by true life stories people who were adventurous archaeologists, and

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Speaker 1: the field of archaeology is far from dusty or dead

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Speaker 1: and very much not static. In fact, many of the

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Speaker 1: debates in archaeology that began, you know, forty fifty one hundred,

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Speaker 1: two hundred years ago continue today and people are still

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Speaker 1: really steamed about it. Yeah, like, it's all still very

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Speaker 1: relevant to the academy. You know, people have their livelihoods

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Speaker 1: staked on as something that would seem like a negligible

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Speaker 1: disagreement to an outsider.

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Speaker 2: That's correct, and we do always have to remember here

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Speaker 2: history is continually being written, even ancient history is being

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Speaker 2: rewritten as we discover something new or something more. And

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Speaker 2: that's what today's episode is all about.

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Speaker 1: That's right. This may be familiar to those of us

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Speaker 1: in the audience who watch the stuff they don't want

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Speaker 1: you to know YouTube series. We are diving into the

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Speaker 1: story of the Dead Sea Scrolls, but not perhaps you know,

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Speaker 1: the way you might assume.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, not at all.

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Speaker 1: Well it's not at all the way you might assume.

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Speaker 1: But first, these first Dead Sea Scrolls, other than a

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Speaker 1: cool name, what are they? Here are the facts the

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Speaker 1: Dead Sea Scrolls.

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Speaker 2: They're these amazing discoveries. They're also known as the Kumeran

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Speaker 2: Cave scrolls, and apologies for my pronunciation there. It's a

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Speaker 2: collection of these ancient religious documents that were discovered in

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Speaker 2: late nineteen forty six or early nineteen forty seven. They

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Speaker 2: are written in versions of Hebrew, like varying versions of Hebrew,

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Speaker 2: and they were discovered by these two Bedouin shepherds, just

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Speaker 2: two guys, and their names were forgive me but Huma

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Speaker 2: or Humah and Mohammed ed Dieb. And they were searching

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Speaker 2: for this literally, this is what's happening. They're searching for

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Speaker 2: a lost animal and they find these things.

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Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, you know, Paul Massive favorite,

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Speaker 1: could we get a little bit of kind of Indiana

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Speaker 1: Jonesy music here just for a second, something from like

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Speaker 1: the first or second act, something building?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely, yeah, Crystal skulls.

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Speaker 1: So so picture this. These shepherds are hunting for some

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Speaker 1: animal that's straight from the flock, and they come to

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Speaker 1: an outcrop overlooking the Dead Sea, and as they're looking

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Speaker 1: around for their lost livestock, they see an opening in

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Speaker 1: the face of the rock, a cave right and caves

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Speaker 1: are relatively common in this area, not being nincompoops of

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Speaker 1: any sort, these shepherds say, okay, we need to make

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Speaker 1: sure it's safe to enter there, and so they throw

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Speaker 1: some stones into the darkness to make sure that they

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Speaker 1: don't hear a larger animal or predator of some sort reacting,

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Speaker 1: and they don't. Instead, they hear the shattering of pottery,

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Speaker 1: and they're thinking, what huh what, And so they crawl

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Speaker 1: inside the cave to investigate, and they find that one

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Speaker 1: of the rocks they had thrown, by chance, hit an

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Speaker 1: ancient clay pot. And inside this clay pot, which had shattered,

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Speaker 1: there were scraps of leather, and these were obviously very old.

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Speaker 1: But the shepherd said, somebody wrote something on this leather.

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Speaker 1: And then they looked around. This is the cinematic moment

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Speaker 1: where they look from the broken in pot and they

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Speaker 1: see behind it as we like focus in.

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Speaker 2: Like it comes in somehow miraculously.

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Speaker 1: And they see that there are a multitude of pots,

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Speaker 1: and these pots also contain stuff. Some of them are

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Speaker 1: complete scrolls contained, and others are fragments of previous works.

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Speaker 1: So imagine you know that, You imagine instead of finding

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Speaker 1: a book, you find like three pages of chapter four

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Speaker 1: that kind of stuff.

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Speaker 5: Now.

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Speaker 2: Now here is where the story takes a bit of

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Speaker 2: a turn, because it truly is a story that one

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Speaker 2: must believe the originators of this story to believe it,

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Speaker 2: that this is actually what happened. But according to what

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Speaker 2: is known or what is told, these guys collected all

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Speaker 2: these scrolls up and they kind of held on to

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Speaker 2: him for a little while. They took him to some

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Speaker 2: friends and some neighbors. They were like, yo, look at this.

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Speaker 2: This is pretty crazy, right, what do you think this is?

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Speaker 2: What could this be? And then they ended up heading

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Speaker 2: over to Bethlehem. This is the nearest commercial center to

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Speaker 2: where they were located over there. It's outside of Jerusalem, right,

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Speaker 2: that's what this is. And they wanted to see if

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Speaker 2: they can maybe sell these things to somebody who'd be

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Speaker 2: interested in this. What they believed to be in an

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Speaker 2: ancient relic or a series of ancient.

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Speaker 1: Relics, right, And they didn't know how old it was.

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Speaker 1: They just said, Okay, this seems important, and we live

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Speaker 1: in a very old part of the world, right, so

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Speaker 1: let's find an expert. One of the smartest things you

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Speaker 1: can do in that situation, the shepherds meet a man

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Speaker 1: named Feedi Salahi. Slahi is an antique stealer, but even

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Speaker 1: he is not completely sure what the shepherds have found.

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Speaker 1: So he calls a friend of his, an Armenian who

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Speaker 1: was also an antique stealer, and says, this is a weird,

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Speaker 1: crazy story. And then his colleague degrees and reaches out

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Speaker 1: to an archaeology professor named Eliza Lippa Sukinik, and Sukinik

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Speaker 1: is Sukinik is interested, right, But we have to remember

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Speaker 1: that this is the mid nineteen forties in the Middle East,

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Speaker 1: the mid to late nineteen forties, and these are dangerous, dangerous,

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Speaker 1: dangerous times. Sukinik risked life and limb as a Jewish

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Speaker 1: Man traveling to Bethlehem. He made it across the border,

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Speaker 1: he took possession of the scrolls. He persuaded Salahi to

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Speaker 1: let them to let him take the scrolls back to

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Speaker 1: study them. Right, and he is at his home in Jerusalem.

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Speaker 1: He's fluent in Hebrew. But that's remember what Matt said

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Speaker 1: earlier at the top, the different versions of Hebrew. Right,

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Speaker 1: if you are primarily an English speaker, just imagine any

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Speaker 1: time you had a teacher that may you read Canterbury

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Speaker 1: Tales in the way it was originally written.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, No, sure, and something as simple as like

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Speaker 2: the articles are a little strange, like and you just

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Speaker 2: don't understand the flow of the language. But here's the thing.

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Speaker 2: As he's looking through, it turns out these things they

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Speaker 2: weren't from the nineteen forties. They weren't from the sixteen

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Speaker 2: hundreds or the twelve hundreds. They were much much older. Right.

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Speaker 1: Yes, the scrolls have all been ascribed to a rough

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Speaker 1: period of time, the Hellenistic Roman period, somewhere between the

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Speaker 1: third century BCE to the first century CE, meaning especially

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Speaker 1: for people who are devoted to Christianity, meaning that these

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Speaker 1: were written during the time of the historical figure Jesus Christ.

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Speaker 1: This is this would be contemporaneous or some of this would.

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Speaker 1: Many of these works correspond to the known Biblical text,

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Speaker 1: like the different Bibles you can find in hotels or

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Speaker 1: in the bookstores or you know, in your house or

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Speaker 1: friend's house today, and they correspond to parts of the

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Speaker 1: Hebrew Bible as well, the Torah.

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Speaker 2: That's incredible to find something like that. That then becomes

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Speaker 2: not necessarily these texts, these specific physical texts, but the

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Speaker 2: contents in them ends up becoming what the Bible is.

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Speaker 2: That's incredible. And here's the thing. There's all kinds of

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Speaker 2: other religious writings that are included in there. There are,

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Speaker 2: you know, copies of the scriptures, other non canonical books

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Speaker 2: that we've talked about, and I believe we've mentioned this

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Speaker 2: before when we talk we talked about apocryphal texts and

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Speaker 2: some of that, so things that aren't included in the

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Speaker 2: official canon of the Holy Bible. And in total, there

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Speaker 2: are hundreds of documents found in twelve caves around Kumran

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Speaker 2: around that area, and the last cave that contained some

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Speaker 2: of these scrolls or pieces of these scrolls was only

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Speaker 2: discovered on it's crazy February of twenty seventeen.

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Speaker 1: Right, not that long ago. And that's surprising because even now,

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Speaker 1: if you read a bunch of fairly authoritative information about

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Speaker 1: the Dead Sea Scrolls, you'll see the number quoted as eleven.

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Speaker 1: So this is very much a case of history in

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Speaker 1: the making. But who wrote them?

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Speaker 2: Yeah?

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Speaker 1: See, that's the thing. Yeah, remember how we said earlier

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Speaker 1: that in the realm of history and archaeology, there are

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Speaker 1: there are details that might seem minor to some people,

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Speaker 1: but seem incredibly, incredibly crucial to to insiders in a community.

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Speaker 1: We're in a discipline. So the question of the providence

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Speaker 1: of the scrolls, or the question rather the original authors

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Speaker 1: is still going to cause debate in the academic community

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Speaker 1: even today. We know that many of the scrolls were

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Speaker 1: likely written by a Jewish sect known as the Esscenes,

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Speaker 1: who are scenes who controlled the area from the second

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Speaker 1: century BCE to the first century. See, they're real people.

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Speaker 1: They're mentioned by plenty the elder who locates them or

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Speaker 1: cites them living in the same area. So we do

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Speaker 1: you know, we do have proof that they were there.

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Speaker 1: They were real, they were known to be ascetic in

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Speaker 1: nature their practices. There are some who may have alleged,

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Speaker 1: you know, mysticism or something in their beliefs. But at

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Speaker 1: the problem with a lot of those ideas throwing them

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Speaker 1: m word around is that it's off. It's often coming

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Speaker 1: from another group and they're they're othering or they're they're

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Speaker 1: attempting to make these people seem i don't know, mysterious

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Speaker 1: or dangerous or off kilter or something like that, something

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Speaker 1: that is not of us.

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Speaker 2: Well, yeah, if you have a rigid belief system, as

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Speaker 2: soon as you veer off just slightly, then you become othered, right,

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Speaker 2: I mean that it tends to occur, and you know,

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Speaker 2: you put mystic on there because maybe they slightly disagree

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Speaker 2: on one thing that is a bit esoteric or a

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Speaker 2: bit of a slightly different belief about something really big

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Speaker 2: within a religion.

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Speaker 1: Or it would seem to be from an outsider's perspective.

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Speaker 1: For this reason, you'll you'll hear scholars occasionally refer to

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Speaker 1: the Dead Sea Scrolls as the library of this group.

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Speaker 1: The this is this is an interesting way to look

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Speaker 1: at it because we see some strong evidence that this

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Speaker 1: could happen. Not everything is written in the type of

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Speaker 1: Hebrew that this group was believed to have used, you know,

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Speaker 1: Aramaic is in their Greek, Latin and so on. But

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Speaker 1: if you look at a substantial library at your local

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Speaker 1: school or something, you're going to local college or whatever,

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Speaker 1: you're going to find multiple books in different languages, right,

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Speaker 1: I mean they were just acquired by the institution. But

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Speaker 1: then you'll hear other people say, well, there are this

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Speaker 1: is the result of multiple contributing authors across the course

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Speaker 1: of centuries. There's no one group that wrote these and

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Speaker 1: that's that's a debate that continues today.

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Speaker 2: I just have to say that makes sense to me.

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Speaker 2: But you know, I'm not a scholar.

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Speaker 1: That it'd be, that would be a library.

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Speaker 2: It's a you know, it's there were different authors from

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Speaker 2: possibly different regions throughout you know, I don't know who

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Speaker 2: knows decades.

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Speaker 1: It's a long time. So while scholars still go back

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Speaker 1: and forth about the identity of all the authors of

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Speaker 1: the scrolls, it's pretty easy to agree on the content. Luckily,

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Speaker 1: since since shortly after nineteen forty six, we have literally

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Speaker 1: had members of our species working around the clock to

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Speaker 1: figure out what on earth these things actually say.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, as we mentioned, there's a lot of it's written

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Speaker 2: in versions of Hebrew. There's also some writing in Aramaic,

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Speaker 2: some in Greek, some in Latin. And the scrolls themselves

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Speaker 2: can be divided up into three rough sections, let's say

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Speaker 2: three sections. There's stuff from content at least from the

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Speaker 2: Old Testament. There's all kinds of information in there that

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Speaker 2: would match up, and it matches up pretty well with

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Speaker 2: the Old Testament, the Bible. There's also slightly alternative versions

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Speaker 2: of existing Biblical writings in there, especially Old Testaments.

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Speaker 1: Of conversations that may not have made it into what

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Speaker 1: is sorder of the canonical version of those religious works exactly.

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Speaker 2: And there's also some a little more mundane things like

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Speaker 2: texts that's relating to everyday life stuff that is occurring

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Speaker 2: in that area with the people who live there, traditional

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Speaker 2: practices of those peoples. And a lot of this stuff

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Speaker 2: is written in Greek and in Latin, which again like

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Speaker 2: kind of painting a picture of Okay, well, maybe these

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Speaker 2: different authors are interested in recording different things here. It's

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Speaker 2: almost like an historian and like you've gotten a religious

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Speaker 2: studies sect writing those first, you know, the first set there,

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Speaker 2: and then you've got well, I don't know, historians writing

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Speaker 2: the second the second set there, and then the next

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Speaker 2: one is where it gets really fun. This is where

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Speaker 2: it's like the Revelation scrolls, but they've got a different.

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Speaker 1: Name, right the so called Sectarian scrolls, also known as

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Speaker 1: the War Rule or the War scroll. This definitely came

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Speaker 1: from the scene sect. It's called the War of the

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Speaker 1: Suns of Light against the suns of darkness. Right now,

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Speaker 1: this sect believed themselves to be sort of the Holy elect,

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Speaker 1: the Kreme de la Creme of Israel, and they call

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Speaker 1: themselves the suns of Light, and at sometime at the

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Speaker 1: end of time, specifically, they would have a catastrophic war

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Speaker 1: with the enemies of Israel, who were called the sons

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Speaker 1: of Darkness. This scroll is an instructional an instructional piece.

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Speaker 1: It's a manual for organization and strategy. It talks about

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Speaker 1: battle gear, It gets down into the nitty gritty of signals.

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Speaker 1: It portrays a forty year holy war, and it says

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Speaker 1: this will be between the forces of good and evil,

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Speaker 1: involving divine as well as earthly soldiers. Yeah, and you know,

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Speaker 1: of course infernal assistance on the other side. So this

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Speaker 1: is fascinating because it's prophetic and apocalyptic. The scenes themselves

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Speaker 1: by the way to flesh this out. One of the

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Speaker 1: reasons that they were looked at askance is because they

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Speaker 1: were generally going to be found in monastic communities, and

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Speaker 1: in most cases these excluded women. So these were people

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Speaker 1: living specifically for the purpose of their faith or their

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Speaker 1: their spiritual values.

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Speaker 2: And a lot of that entilled writing things down.

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Speaker 1: Yes, yes, and we're going to explore some more of

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Speaker 1: that after a quick word from our sponsor. Right, they

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Speaker 1: wrote things down, and since a lot of the stuff

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Speaker 1: they wrote down predates the Bible. We can look back.

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Speaker 1: We could do this side by side. There are projects

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Speaker 1: to digitize this information. You can look side by side

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Speaker 1: and see the evolution of beliefs and concepts from the

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Speaker 1: time the scrolls were actually written, all the way to

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Speaker 1: the current translations of Bibles or other religious texts that

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Speaker 1: you see used today in twenty twenty. For example, you

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Speaker 1: can see depictions of narratives like what you would find

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Speaker 1: in modern day Exodus or Genesis. But here's the thing,

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Speaker 1: these are the earlier versions. They're different.

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Speaker 2: Oh yes, And then we mentioned apocrypha before, because there's

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Speaker 2: all kinds of stuff in there about that, stories of

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Speaker 2: these giants, these ancient giants from before, these things called watchers,

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Speaker 2: these fallen watchers, and there's all kinds of other imagery

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Speaker 2: in there, and characters that you probably wouldn't if you

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Speaker 2: open and cracked a Bible.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I was thinking of I was thinking of, what's

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Speaker 1: what's the strange comparison we can make to this experience

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Speaker 1: in the modern day.

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Speaker 2: Okay, all right?

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Speaker 1: Uh do you remember Fresh Prince of bel Air.

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Speaker 2: I've heard of it, Yes, I've seen every episode.

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Speaker 1: Right, Okay, so Aunt Viv in Fresh Prince of bel

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Speaker 1: Air is actually two different actors, right, what Yeah, one

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Speaker 1: of them gets replaced in nineteen ninety three, right, I remember,

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Speaker 1: I know Matt clearly knows all of this. Intimately, you're

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Speaker 1: like the biggest fresh prints.

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Speaker 2: I remember the episode and it changed. I was like,

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Speaker 2: that is not on viv Get out of here. Who

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Speaker 2: are you collitch.

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Speaker 1: In the matrix?

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Speaker 2: Yeah?

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Speaker 1: So for some people reading this is sort of like

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Speaker 1: that experience, because we grow up thinking that religious texts

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Speaker 1: are all poor choice of words here carved in stone,

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Speaker 1: that they do not change, you know what I mean?

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Speaker 1: And now there is clear evidence that at some point,

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Speaker 1: yeah dude, they did. They still have you know, a

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Speaker 1: lot in common, right, And there is also a fascinating

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Speaker 1: case to be made that this stuff remains remarkably consistent. Right,

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Speaker 1: But especially when you look at the modern Christian versions,

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Speaker 1: there are a lot of differences. There are things that

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Speaker 1: were cut out, and that has been the root of

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Speaker 1: a great deal of research. The fast spanning the spectrum

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Speaker 1: of plausibility and credibility, I would say, because you get

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Speaker 1: a lot of pseudo historians.

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Speaker 2: In there, you know, oh yeah exactly.

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Speaker 1: And there is so much to explore in the story

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Speaker 1: of the Dead Sea scrolls, but we want to hone

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Speaker 1: in on a specific story. We want to hone in

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Speaker 1: on a single scroll, and we may to be completely clear,

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Speaker 1: we may return in the future to other parts of

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Speaker 1: the Dead Sea story.

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Speaker 2: I would love that.

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Speaker 1: The Dead Sea itself, man, it's a crazy place.

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Speaker 2: It really is.

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Speaker 1: Thirty three percent salinity. It's nuts. They also recently scientists

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Speaker 1: found life at the bottom of the Dead Sea.

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Speaker 2: You're saying, there's life in the bottom of the Dead Sea.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, maybe we were a little too uh click

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Speaker 1: to pull the trigger on the name.

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Speaker 2: For an update.

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Speaker 1: Mostly dead sea, the live bottom sea. That's you know,

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Speaker 1: that's not gonna.

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Speaker 2: Have probiotics at the bottom there we go.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and and underwater whole foods because of course. But

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Speaker 1: also the Dead Sea is a receding at a precipitous rate.

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Speaker 1: It's sad.

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Speaker 2: Great, thanks, thanks Ben, You're welcome in Australia's on fire.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Also still and then as we're recording this, there

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Speaker 1: were a series of earthquakes and an and.

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Speaker 2: You know, some attacks. Yeah, yeah, it's fine, Everything's going

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Speaker 2: to be fine.

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Speaker 1: I was talking to an old professor of mine recently

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Speaker 1: regarding geopolitical tensions in the modern world, and asked him,

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Speaker 1: you know what he thought was going to happen off

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Speaker 1: the record and stuff. And his answer was, you know,

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Speaker 1: he said, I envy you young folks out there because

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Speaker 1: you know you could make a choice and you might

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Speaker 1: not ever have to deal with the consequences. And he said,

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Speaker 1: you think about it, which you want, wreck a car,

401
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Speaker 1: tell someone you'll marry them, It doesn't matter.

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Speaker 2: Now he's saying, we're not going to live, yes, yes,

403
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Speaker 2: for long.

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Speaker 1: It was his way of saying that you can make

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Speaker 1: the most ridiculous choices because you really don't know if

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Speaker 1: you know, if you were going to do something that

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Speaker 1: would have killed you in your eighties, is that a

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Speaker 1: moot concern at this point?

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Speaker 2: Oh my god, we can really live like there's no tomorrow.

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Speaker 2: Tonight's the night. That's why all the pop songs are

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Speaker 2: telling me Tonight's the night.

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Speaker 1: I want to also point out, I'm not going to

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Speaker 1: give this professor's name. They are retired. Also want to

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Speaker 1: point out I think they're eighty percent joking. I would

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Speaker 1: like to think that. And if they're not, and if

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Speaker 1: you're listening, that is a horrible take on this on

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Speaker 1: this situation anyhow. Yeah, yes, we are focusing on one

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Speaker 1: one specific scroll because there was a scroll discovered on

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Speaker 1: March fourteenth, nineteen fifty two, and out of all of

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Speaker 1: the nine hundred something Dead Sea scrolls, this one is

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Speaker 1: unique for a number of reasons.

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Speaker 2: Well, firstly, it's not written on papyrus or you know,

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Speaker 2: leather or any of these other mediums that where the

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00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:45,679
Speaker 2: other ones were written or how they're what they were

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Speaker 2: written on. This one was written on a thin sheet

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Speaker 2: of rolled up copper. That's crazy, a thin sheet of

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Speaker 2: rolled up metal. And this thing is really really interesting.

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Speaker 2: There are several different estimates here. A lot of these

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Speaker 2: scholars believe that the probable range for the Copper scrolls

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Speaker 2: creation was somewhere in the period of twenty five to

431
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Speaker 2: seventy five CE, and that's just looking at the handwriting itself.

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Speaker 2: When you're analyzing that it's called from a paleographical perspective.

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Speaker 2: While there's this person in WF. Albright who suggests it

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Speaker 2: was probably written somewhere between seventy and one hundred and

435
00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:27,840
Speaker 2: thirty five CE, so a little bit after that range

436
00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:31,600
Speaker 2: at least when you're looking at it from a different perspective.

437
00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:36,520
Speaker 2: It's really really interesting because this thing is unlike the

438
00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:40,480
Speaker 2: other scrolls in way more ways than just the medium

439
00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:41,359
Speaker 2: on which it's written.

440
00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:50,560
Speaker 1: Right, this scroll eschewed the trend of religious content entirely

441
00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:55,479
Speaker 1: focus on something else, something that has haunted amateurs and

442
00:27:55,720 --> 00:28:01,960
Speaker 1: archaeologists alike since the fifties. The copper scroll you see

443
00:28:02,119 --> 00:28:04,840
Speaker 1: is not a guide to day to day life. It

444
00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:09,320
Speaker 1: is not an early version of Exodus or Genesis. It's

445
00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:14,600
Speaker 1: not apocrypha. It is best described as a treasure map.

446
00:28:15,359 --> 00:28:17,520
Speaker 1: Here's where it gets crazy.

447
00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:21,360
Speaker 2: A treasure map, Ben, a treasure map, Matt, No, you're right,

448
00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:25,320
Speaker 2: that's exactly what this thing is. It's about as Indiana

449
00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:27,280
Speaker 2: Jones as you can get. If you were to pick

450
00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:30,520
Speaker 2: this up and if you were able to read it immediately,

451
00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:34,720
Speaker 2: you would you would just in my mind, you would

452
00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:37,639
Speaker 2: grab a big stick or a shovel or something and

453
00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:41,240
Speaker 2: you would just start digging all over the place. It's

454
00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:42,120
Speaker 2: intense stuff.

455
00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:46,240
Speaker 1: And it's not just one treasure, No, it's one treasure

456
00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:51,160
Speaker 1: across what it's all the treasure sixty four locations. Yeah.

457
00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:57,480
Speaker 1: The treasures are are precious metals, gold and silver, and

458
00:28:57,840 --> 00:29:01,560
Speaker 1: the text of the copper scroll is entirely an inventory

459
00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:06,400
Speaker 1: of these locations and coins, right, and coins, Yeah, sorry,

460
00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:10,520
Speaker 1: sixty three locations are, according to the scroll, holding gold

461
00:29:10,520 --> 00:29:12,840
Speaker 1: and silver, and there's a sixty fourth location that's a

462
00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:15,920
Speaker 1: little bit different. But they're talking, you know, they're making

463
00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:21,160
Speaker 1: money moves here. These these are not little burlap sacks

464
00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:23,200
Speaker 1: of like five to ten pieces of silver.

465
00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:27,400
Speaker 2: No, not at all. You're talking talents, all kinds of talents,

466
00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:32,280
Speaker 2: sometimes fifty, sometimes ten, sometimes way more than that. There's

467
00:29:32,320 --> 00:29:36,840
Speaker 2: one location, like according to this copper scroll that it

468
00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:42,400
Speaker 2: holds nine hundred talents and or roughly eight hundred and

469
00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:46,719
Speaker 2: sixty eight thousand troy ounces of buried gold. That's a

470
00:29:46,760 --> 00:29:49,960
Speaker 2: lot of gold, my friends. Yes, And it is just

471
00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:55,000
Speaker 2: buried in one place. But then there's gold and silver

472
00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:58,320
Speaker 2: buried throughout this entire region somewhere out there, and we're

473
00:29:58,360 --> 00:29:59,880
Speaker 2: going to get into where that is. But it's not

474
00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:03,560
Speaker 2: just precious metals, it's not just talent or gold coins

475
00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:08,880
Speaker 2: and silver coins. It's got it's got religious accouterment too,

476
00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:10,720
Speaker 2: that's just buried out there somewhere.

477
00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:17,600
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, tithing vessels, other other vessels that would be

478
00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:23,840
Speaker 1: used in religious ceremonies, right, also priestly vestments.

479
00:30:24,120 --> 00:30:26,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, but I want to get back to the vessels.

480
00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:29,120
Speaker 2: The vessels were really fun for me because I'm going

481
00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:31,200
Speaker 2: to read you a quote from one of these, just

482
00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:33,120
Speaker 2: so everybody can hear. Is that okay?

483
00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:36,160
Speaker 1: That's perfect? I forgot this was coming.

484
00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:37,240
Speaker 2: Oh yes, just really quick.

485
00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:38,239
Speaker 1: No, no, please, let's do it.

486
00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:42,280
Speaker 2: Just speaking of vessels. So this is officially column three.

487
00:30:42,520 --> 00:30:44,200
Speaker 2: You can find this online if you want to. You

488
00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:46,360
Speaker 2: can see it in there, and this is just me

489
00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:50,560
Speaker 2: reading it in from an English translation. Dig down nine

490
00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:54,160
Speaker 2: cubits into the southern corner of the courtyard. There will

491
00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:58,680
Speaker 2: be silver and gold vessels given as offerings, bowls, cups,

492
00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:05,520
Speaker 2: sprinkling basins, libation tubes, and pictures. All together, they will

493
00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:07,200
Speaker 2: total six hundred and nine pieces.

494
00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:12,640
Speaker 1: Libation tubes, Hey, Matt, what what's a libation tube?

495
00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:16,040
Speaker 2: A libation tube is anything that you pour some drinking

496
00:31:16,120 --> 00:31:18,640
Speaker 2: to my friend. It could be wine, it could be

497
00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:22,680
Speaker 2: any other libation, as long as you're having fun and

498
00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:27,800
Speaker 2: hopefully doing it in sacrament to some higher deity.

499
00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:31,920
Speaker 1: Libate right, librate to your heart's content. Would you call

500
00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:34,680
Speaker 1: that libyan? What would you call that? Tubin?

501
00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:36,320
Speaker 2: Or leban?

502
00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:36,920
Speaker 4: Liban?

503
00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:45,880
Speaker 1: Tuban Ananberg. Yeah, yeah, yeah, they also these The name

504
00:31:46,080 --> 00:31:51,280
Speaker 1: sounds a bit funny in English, but libation tubes did

505
00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:54,120
Speaker 1: serve an important purpose, right, yeah, absolutely, They were connecting

506
00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:56,960
Speaker 1: the living with the dead and so on. So this

507
00:31:57,120 --> 00:32:01,440
Speaker 1: is incredibly important to point out. Though again, not all

508
00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:03,920
Speaker 1: of the treasure was gold and silver. There were things

509
00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:09,720
Speaker 1: that the community truly believed you could not put a

510
00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:12,800
Speaker 1: price on, right, these priceless objects, and they must be

511
00:32:12,880 --> 00:32:16,520
Speaker 1: hidden from invading forces such as the Romans, who of

512
00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:22,520
Speaker 1: course will show up later. There's another interesting part though,

513
00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:26,040
Speaker 1: that it's towards the very end of the Copper Scroll

514
00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:33,120
Speaker 1: it says there's another scroll out there that has more details.

515
00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:37,040
Speaker 1: It's as if they knew people would complain about the

516
00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:40,000
Speaker 1: directions in the scroll, which we'll get to by the way,

517
00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:44,840
Speaker 1: they're laughable. But that other document, whatever it is, has

518
00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:48,400
Speaker 1: yet to be found. They are experts of plenty in

519
00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:52,920
Speaker 1: this field, like a Theodore H. Gaster. He studied the

520
00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:58,240
Speaker 1: Copper Scroll extensively, and he believed that it was in

521
00:32:58,240 --> 00:33:03,800
Speaker 1: fact alluding to a real treasure, and that this treasure

522
00:33:03,880 --> 00:33:06,520
Speaker 1: could come from one of three sources.

523
00:33:06,760 --> 00:33:09,880
Speaker 2: The first of those would be treasure that was acquired

524
00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:14,240
Speaker 2: by the Kumaran community or the Essenes that we discussed before.

525
00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:16,640
Speaker 2: It would kind of make sense. Just you know, when

526
00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:20,760
Speaker 2: you're thinking about all the religious accouterment that was buried

527
00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:23,239
Speaker 2: in all of these things, you can imagine that if

528
00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:25,440
Speaker 2: it is a religious community, perhaps a lot of this

529
00:33:26,120 --> 00:33:28,920
Speaker 2: the wealth of the gold and everything came through the

530
00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:31,240
Speaker 2: form of some kind of tithing or donation or some

531
00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:33,400
Speaker 2: you know, you can imagine it was gathered in some

532
00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:36,720
Speaker 2: way like that. It kind of makes sense. The next

533
00:33:37,040 --> 00:33:40,720
Speaker 2: possible source of this treasure would be from the Second

534
00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:44,640
Speaker 2: Temple in Jerusalem. However, we do have to kind of

535
00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:47,920
Speaker 2: point out here that the historical record suggests that a

536
00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:50,360
Speaker 2: lot of the main or the a large amount of

537
00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:53,840
Speaker 2: the main treasure that was inside that Second Temple was

538
00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:56,920
Speaker 2: in the building when Rome came through and sacked all

539
00:33:56,960 --> 00:34:00,360
Speaker 2: of Jerusalem after they breached all the walls. And it's

540
00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:04,600
Speaker 2: a there's a great there's a great article on HowStuffWorks

541
00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:06,840
Speaker 2: dot Com that goes kind of it paints a really

542
00:34:06,840 --> 00:34:11,560
Speaker 2: great picture of what occurred when the Romans sec Jerusalem

543
00:34:11,640 --> 00:34:15,600
Speaker 2: that time. It does not rule out this possibility, though

544
00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:19,000
Speaker 2: there's a significant portion of the treasures that may have

545
00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:22,960
Speaker 2: possibly at least you know. This is it's a belief, right,

546
00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:25,759
Speaker 2: This is where we're talking about. This is a suggestion.

547
00:34:26,200 --> 00:34:28,279
Speaker 2: A significant portion of the treasures may have been taken

548
00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:31,920
Speaker 2: away from the temple because it was known that the

549
00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:34,799
Speaker 2: Romans were coming through for days, right, so there was

550
00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:37,440
Speaker 2: probably preparation to get a lot of this treasure out

551
00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:40,840
Speaker 2: and hide it somewhere before they actually breached the walls.

552
00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:44,520
Speaker 1: And the third idea is that this treasure came from

553
00:34:44,640 --> 00:34:48,480
Speaker 1: the First Temple, which was destroyed by the king of Babylon,

554
00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:54,000
Speaker 1: Nebuchadnezzar in five eighty six BCE. There's one problem with

555
00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:58,319
Speaker 1: that though. The scroll has been dated to as you said,

556
00:34:58,360 --> 00:35:03,400
Speaker 1: earlier man like twenty five at the earliest. So it's

557
00:35:03,520 --> 00:35:08,520
Speaker 1: unlikely that somebody went back and made a treasure map

558
00:35:08,640 --> 00:35:14,520
Speaker 1: centuries later, especially when you see how it's written. You know.

559
00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:16,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, But here's the thing I would point out when

560
00:35:16,880 --> 00:35:20,279
Speaker 2: I was reading that too. This is my suggestion, and

561
00:35:20,320 --> 00:35:24,479
Speaker 2: this is there's no weight behind this suggestion. But if

562
00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:28,520
Speaker 2: the treasures were secreted away from either of the temples

563
00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:36,400
Speaker 2: and kept somewhere, right, perhaps this burying them across the

564
00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:38,759
Speaker 2: land and all these varying places that you'd need to

565
00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:42,080
Speaker 2: dig to find them very much buried treasure. It could

566
00:35:42,120 --> 00:35:46,399
Speaker 2: be an interesting strategy for hiding them a second time,

567
00:35:46,560 --> 00:35:49,319
Speaker 2: or maybe a third time, or you know, however, many

568
00:35:49,360 --> 00:35:53,520
Speaker 2: iterations these treasures had been hidden away from popular view

569
00:35:53,600 --> 00:35:54,839
Speaker 2: or from the authorities view.

570
00:35:55,680 --> 00:36:00,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, that's the tantalizing thing about this, right.

571
00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:09,400
Speaker 1: We we have solid, concrete, tangible proof of something, and

572
00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:15,160
Speaker 1: now it's a herculean mental exercise to try to plausibly

573
00:36:15,200 --> 00:36:20,640
Speaker 1: and realistically connect these dots. You know. But when we

574
00:36:20,680 --> 00:36:24,279
Speaker 1: talk about connecting dots, we're also talking about decoding the

575
00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:27,680
Speaker 1: manuscript itself, because it was written in Hebrew, but it

576
00:36:27,719 --> 00:36:30,880
Speaker 1: was written in a different kind of Hebrew, and the

577
00:36:31,040 --> 00:36:35,040
Speaker 1: chronology makes us assume that this was deposited later was

578
00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:41,280
Speaker 1: possibly from a different group of people. We'll explore more

579
00:36:41,560 --> 00:36:44,319
Speaker 1: of the conundrum of the copper scroll after word from

580
00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:45,040
Speaker 1: our sponsor.

581
00:36:52,400 --> 00:36:56,000
Speaker 2: All right, and we're back. Now. We've been talking about,

582
00:36:56,160 --> 00:36:59,280
Speaker 2: you know, the origin a lot of this copper scroll,

583
00:36:59,360 --> 00:37:02,000
Speaker 2: but we really really want to answer the question, is

584
00:37:02,040 --> 00:37:05,120
Speaker 2: there actual treasure out there that if let's say we

585
00:37:05,200 --> 00:37:08,560
Speaker 2: got on a plane and ended up there in that area,

586
00:37:09,160 --> 00:37:15,239
Speaker 2: could we find some talents underneath the ground somewhere Troy ounces.

587
00:37:15,280 --> 00:37:20,239
Speaker 1: Well, what do you think, Ben, It's possible, But to

588
00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:24,439
Speaker 1: do that we would have to Indiana Jones style decipher

589
00:37:24,719 --> 00:37:30,719
Speaker 1: the manuscript. So, for instance, we set a talent we

590
00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:38,239
Speaker 1: had the equivalent there for Troy ounce. But unsurprisingly, directions

591
00:37:38,239 --> 00:37:42,160
Speaker 1: are not given in kilometers, nor were they in miles.

592
00:37:42,719 --> 00:37:47,120
Speaker 2: Oh yes, oh sure, yes, absolutely. We mentioned this when

593
00:37:47,120 --> 00:37:50,880
Speaker 2: I read column three. It says dig down nine cubits.

594
00:37:51,880 --> 00:37:55,040
Speaker 2: So if you were to dig down nine cubits, what

595
00:37:55,440 --> 00:37:57,600
Speaker 2: the heck would that look like. Well, let's talk about

596
00:37:57,640 --> 00:38:01,800
Speaker 2: it really, really quickly. A cubit is ancient and handy measurement,

597
00:38:01,960 --> 00:38:03,719
Speaker 2: and that is a pun and we'll get to it.

598
00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:07,239
Speaker 2: So let's do something fun together. Right now, Paul, you

599
00:38:07,320 --> 00:38:09,399
Speaker 2: do this too, just so I can see if I'm

600
00:38:09,600 --> 00:38:14,280
Speaker 2: telling it correctly. Please take your dominant hand and stretch

601
00:38:14,320 --> 00:38:17,560
Speaker 2: it directly out in front of you, right, Okay. Now,

602
00:38:17,840 --> 00:38:23,080
Speaker 2: let's bend your elbow so it's ninety degrees facing upwards. Okay, okay, excellent.

603
00:38:23,360 --> 00:38:26,960
Speaker 2: Now the length from your elbow to the middle finger,

604
00:38:27,239 --> 00:38:29,719
Speaker 2: your middle finger, which is stretched out, by the way,

605
00:38:29,760 --> 00:38:32,799
Speaker 2: I forgot to mention that that is a cubit, not

606
00:38:32,880 --> 00:38:37,120
Speaker 2: a Cubert no, a cubebit. And here's there's a bit

607
00:38:37,160 --> 00:38:40,799
Speaker 2: of a problem here because my cubit is not exactly

608
00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:43,319
Speaker 2: the same length as your cubit. It's going to be

609
00:38:43,719 --> 00:38:46,960
Speaker 2: close ish, yeah, but it's not exactly the same. It's

610
00:38:47,080 --> 00:38:52,080
Speaker 2: roughly eighteen inches somewhere around that length, or about forty

611
00:38:52,120 --> 00:38:56,280
Speaker 2: six centimeters. But this is the measurement that was used

612
00:38:56,440 --> 00:39:00,200
Speaker 2: in throughout ancient history for a long long time. And

613
00:39:00,400 --> 00:39:02,960
Speaker 2: just think about how helpful this measurement is for someone

614
00:39:03,160 --> 00:39:07,239
Speaker 2: anyone who's working on either a huge project or just

615
00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:10,680
Speaker 2: something maybe in their home. You can measure something out,

616
00:39:10,760 --> 00:39:13,399
Speaker 2: be like, I want this table to be about four

617
00:39:13,480 --> 00:39:16,800
Speaker 2: cubits across, and you could measure that as you're going,

618
00:39:17,280 --> 00:39:21,200
Speaker 2: and you know, cut cut wood to an exact measurement

619
00:39:21,280 --> 00:39:23,520
Speaker 2: orright close to exact measurement. And then you could also

620
00:39:23,600 --> 00:39:25,920
Speaker 2: talk with your you know, colleagues, or if you want

621
00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:28,480
Speaker 2: to sell it, you can say this thing is it's

622
00:39:28,520 --> 00:39:32,200
Speaker 2: about three four cubits. Yeah, it's pretty cool to me.

623
00:39:32,320 --> 00:39:35,280
Speaker 2: I didn't know that. I'm just excited to have that knowledge.

624
00:39:35,400 --> 00:39:37,359
Speaker 1: It's a measuring tool that you carry with you at

625
00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:37,920
Speaker 1: all times.

626
00:39:38,000 --> 00:39:39,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, you don't, you don't need a tool right, or

627
00:39:39,960 --> 00:39:40,960
Speaker 2: anything else. You got your arm.

628
00:39:41,040 --> 00:39:41,719
Speaker 1: You are the tool.

629
00:39:41,840 --> 00:39:43,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, you're the tool.

630
00:39:43,160 --> 00:39:46,320
Speaker 1: Tell yourself that, say I am the tool in the mirror.

631
00:39:48,040 --> 00:39:52,920
Speaker 1: So this is just one example of the the different

632
00:39:52,960 --> 00:39:56,600
Speaker 1: phrases or concepts that have to be translated to ciphered

633
00:39:57,320 --> 00:40:01,520
Speaker 1: for us to launch an actual treasure hunt based on

634
00:40:01,600 --> 00:40:07,040
Speaker 1: the information we find in the copper scroll. Spoiler alert.

635
00:40:07,760 --> 00:40:10,040
Speaker 1: For some people, what you're about to hear may be

636
00:40:10,200 --> 00:40:13,440
Speaker 1: very disappointing. For others in the audience today, it may

637
00:40:13,480 --> 00:40:17,520
Speaker 1: be quite inspiring. And it is this the treasure which

638
00:40:17,560 --> 00:40:21,320
Speaker 1: was almost definitely real, by which we mean real gold,

639
00:40:21,600 --> 00:40:25,000
Speaker 1: real silver, you know what I mean, the mollah, the

640
00:40:25,440 --> 00:40:28,200
Speaker 1: good stuff, stuff you could trade on a market today.

641
00:40:28,239 --> 00:40:30,800
Speaker 1: This is not like a treasure like oh, the friends

642
00:40:30,800 --> 00:40:34,399
Speaker 1: we made along the way, or you know, ah, this

643
00:40:34,480 --> 00:40:37,319
Speaker 1: is a child's doll that was really important to a

644
00:40:37,360 --> 00:40:38,200
Speaker 1: person who died.

645
00:40:38,760 --> 00:40:41,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, just to point out here, it doesn't make sense

646
00:40:41,440 --> 00:40:45,640
Speaker 2: for someone anyone to take the time and effort and

647
00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:50,440
Speaker 2: resources to inscribe in that copper scroll all of the

648
00:40:50,440 --> 00:40:53,280
Speaker 2: information that is on there, if it's just some mythical

649
00:40:53,440 --> 00:40:57,319
Speaker 2: thing that there's no actual treasure all, Like, why would

650
00:40:57,360 --> 00:40:57,719
Speaker 2: you do that?

651
00:40:58,200 --> 00:41:01,640
Speaker 1: So that's the spoiler alert. This treasure, which again is

652
00:41:03,560 --> 00:41:08,160
Speaker 1: overwhelmingly likely to be a real thing, it has never

653
00:41:08,320 --> 00:41:11,800
Speaker 1: been found, not as far as we know, a single

654
00:41:12,160 --> 00:41:15,440
Speaker 1: piece of it, not even the like, not even the

655
00:41:15,480 --> 00:41:17,600
Speaker 1: idea of a single piece of gold or silver, Not

656
00:41:17,719 --> 00:41:20,960
Speaker 1: a single piece of one of those vessels that was mentioned,

657
00:41:21,480 --> 00:41:23,280
Speaker 1: No libation tube, et cetera.

658
00:41:23,440 --> 00:41:27,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a there's a guy who allegedly found some tiny,

659
00:41:27,719 --> 00:41:31,000
Speaker 2: little couple of small pieces, but it was not like, well.

660
00:41:30,840 --> 00:41:33,880
Speaker 1: He found a rock, right, I think? So there they

661
00:41:33,920 --> 00:41:34,960
Speaker 1: said it was man made.

662
00:41:35,120 --> 00:41:35,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly.

663
00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:39,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, people, this hasn't stopped people from searching, of course,

664
00:41:40,960 --> 00:41:46,280
Speaker 1: But why hasn't it been found? That's that's the craziest question. First,

665
00:41:46,440 --> 00:41:49,080
Speaker 1: which you think we mentioned earlier when we were talking

666
00:41:49,120 --> 00:41:51,480
Speaker 1: about the possible origin of the treasure. We have to

667
00:41:51,480 --> 00:41:54,799
Speaker 1: think of the sheer passage of time. It is plausible

668
00:41:55,400 --> 00:42:02,120
Speaker 1: that sometime between modern day exploration and excavation and the

669
00:42:02,160 --> 00:42:05,000
Speaker 1: time that these things were originally written, at the time

670
00:42:05,040 --> 00:42:08,959
Speaker 1: this treasure was originally buried, it's completely possible that any

671
00:42:09,040 --> 00:42:14,319
Speaker 1: number of people looted the Bejesus out of the thing,

672
00:42:14,440 --> 00:42:14,640
Speaker 1: you know.

673
00:42:14,880 --> 00:42:17,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, but why would you leave the copper scroll behind well,

674
00:42:17,760 --> 00:42:20,480
Speaker 2: the scroll clearly wasn't next to the treasure.

675
00:42:20,760 --> 00:42:22,479
Speaker 1: It's supposed to tell you where to go.

676
00:42:22,960 --> 00:42:25,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, but you'd use the treasure, you'd have to take

677
00:42:25,600 --> 00:42:26,160
Speaker 2: it with you.

678
00:42:26,239 --> 00:42:28,440
Speaker 1: Right, Well, what if you just found the treasure and

679
00:42:28,480 --> 00:42:31,319
Speaker 1: you never found the scroll. Oh you know what I mean.

680
00:42:32,400 --> 00:42:35,080
Speaker 2: But this stuff is like nine cubits. You have to

681
00:42:35,080 --> 00:42:36,520
Speaker 2: dig like nine cubits.

682
00:42:36,840 --> 00:42:39,759
Speaker 1: Well, we also have to remember, for instance, that our

683
00:42:39,840 --> 00:42:44,759
Speaker 1: prime suspect for a contemporaneous looting operation would have been

684
00:42:45,040 --> 00:42:48,760
Speaker 1: the Roman community, and the Romans at the time standard

685
00:42:48,800 --> 00:42:53,120
Speaker 1: operating procedure was to torture people to get information so

686
00:42:53,160 --> 00:42:56,600
Speaker 1: they could have found one. I mean, that's also why

687
00:42:56,600 --> 00:42:59,959
Speaker 1: the treasure was not put in one location. Yes, right,

688
00:43:00,120 --> 00:43:02,279
Speaker 1: so maybe it was a situation where outside of the

689
00:43:02,320 --> 00:43:06,480
Speaker 1: authors of the Copper Scroll, most people didn't know. You know,

690
00:43:06,520 --> 00:43:09,239
Speaker 1: they probably have pretty good operational security. Most people didn't

691
00:43:09,320 --> 00:43:12,600
Speaker 1: know where the other sixty four or excuse me, sixty

692
00:43:12,640 --> 00:43:13,520
Speaker 1: three things were.

693
00:43:13,800 --> 00:43:15,759
Speaker 2: That is really smart to split it up as much

694
00:43:15,800 --> 00:43:16,399
Speaker 2: as they did.

695
00:43:16,840 --> 00:43:20,240
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, if this was, if this was a treasure

696
00:43:20,280 --> 00:43:22,279
Speaker 1: from the Second Temple, it was very much not the

697
00:43:22,320 --> 00:43:24,920
Speaker 1: first rodeo, you know what I mean. Theo lessons learned.

698
00:43:25,640 --> 00:43:29,960
Speaker 1: So the other idea is that there may have been

699
00:43:30,080 --> 00:43:33,839
Speaker 1: a cover up of some sort that was successful, and

700
00:43:34,000 --> 00:43:36,800
Speaker 1: that the people responsible for hiding the gold and silver

701
00:43:37,480 --> 00:43:40,600
Speaker 1: did a great job. But outside of the copper scroll

702
00:43:40,800 --> 00:43:45,239
Speaker 1: and this other unidentified or undiscovered document, they just never

703
00:43:45,320 --> 00:43:47,800
Speaker 1: shared the information with others, or they passed away, or

704
00:43:47,840 --> 00:43:49,920
Speaker 1: the people they told the secret to at some point

705
00:43:49,960 --> 00:43:56,080
Speaker 1: communication between generations failed. Add to that, the vagueness of

706
00:43:56,120 --> 00:44:00,640
Speaker 1: this scroll can be maddening. This is, if I may,

707
00:44:00,680 --> 00:44:05,120
Speaker 1: I'm gonna read just the excerpt from the instructions to

708
00:44:06,440 --> 00:44:08,719
Speaker 1: one of the treasure locations. We want to see what

709
00:44:08,760 --> 00:44:11,239
Speaker 1: you think. I'm just gonna read it without other than

710
00:44:11,239 --> 00:44:15,279
Speaker 1: saying it's vague. In the salt pit that is under

711
00:44:15,320 --> 00:44:19,200
Speaker 1: the steps, forty one talents of silver, in the cave

712
00:44:19,320 --> 00:44:22,840
Speaker 1: of the old Washer's chamber on the third terrace, sixty

713
00:44:22,920 --> 00:44:26,480
Speaker 1: five ingots of gold. What's the old washer's chamber?

714
00:44:26,719 --> 00:44:29,960
Speaker 2: Huh? You know what I mean, dude, I'm telling you,

715
00:44:30,040 --> 00:44:33,279
Speaker 2: I have such a feeling about this. It was an

716
00:44:33,320 --> 00:44:37,400
Speaker 2: internal document, Yeah, it was. This is what I'm feeling,

717
00:44:37,440 --> 00:44:39,680
Speaker 2: and I remember as I was reading through. You can

718
00:44:39,680 --> 00:44:41,600
Speaker 2: find a couple of places online where you can read

719
00:44:41,640 --> 00:44:44,400
Speaker 2: translations of the full scroll, and it really does go

720
00:44:44,480 --> 00:44:47,439
Speaker 2: on like that, like that's pretty much what Ben just read.

721
00:44:47,920 --> 00:44:54,120
Speaker 2: It's like twelve columns of that. And it feels like

722
00:44:54,640 --> 00:45:01,840
Speaker 2: somebody within a group of people recording with places like that,

723
00:45:02,239 --> 00:45:06,040
Speaker 2: like the old washers whatever, this specific cave that doesn't

724
00:45:06,040 --> 00:45:08,360
Speaker 2: have an exact you know, the name is a little strange.

725
00:45:08,360 --> 00:45:11,680
Speaker 2: It doesn't match up historically with any other. Sure, everybody

726
00:45:11,760 --> 00:45:15,600
Speaker 2: in that insular group knows all these places intimately, and

727
00:45:15,920 --> 00:45:18,640
Speaker 2: they know exactly where to go and where to dig

728
00:45:18,680 --> 00:45:21,440
Speaker 2: and everything. But they're just keeping a record of it,

729
00:45:21,520 --> 00:45:25,160
Speaker 2: or somebody within it is the record keeper of it. Sure, yeah,

730
00:45:25,200 --> 00:45:27,399
Speaker 2: you could it just totally. It totally makes sense.

731
00:45:27,520 --> 00:45:29,600
Speaker 1: I mean that makes yeah, it does make sense. I

732
00:45:29,920 --> 00:45:32,160
Speaker 1: agree with you. The first thing this made me think

733
00:45:32,200 --> 00:45:36,719
Speaker 1: of through analogy was the experience that you have if

734
00:45:36,800 --> 00:45:41,320
Speaker 1: you have ever given or received directions in very small towns.

735
00:45:41,719 --> 00:45:42,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly.

736
00:45:42,640 --> 00:45:46,760
Speaker 1: You know, you may have something that sounds really clear,

737
00:45:46,920 --> 00:45:49,360
Speaker 1: like take Main Street and then take a left on

738
00:45:49,600 --> 00:45:52,640
Speaker 1: Colquit at the corner of the Arby's, why the Arby's

739
00:45:52,680 --> 00:45:55,319
Speaker 1: or something, but you may also have something like go

740
00:45:55,480 --> 00:45:58,640
Speaker 1: about I don't go a mile till you get to

741
00:45:58,680 --> 00:46:01,880
Speaker 1: where the old mill burn down. Yes, and then you

742
00:46:01,880 --> 00:46:04,960
Speaker 1: know there should be a post office box.

743
00:46:05,280 --> 00:46:07,319
Speaker 4: Yeah, and then.

744
00:46:07,280 --> 00:46:12,520
Speaker 1: You go, I think you go for about three miles

745
00:46:12,600 --> 00:46:14,960
Speaker 1: until you get where the Tillmans used to live, and

746
00:46:15,000 --> 00:46:16,160
Speaker 1: then you take a right there.

747
00:46:16,480 --> 00:46:20,279
Speaker 2: See for us, just we're been and Nolan, Paul and

748
00:46:20,360 --> 00:46:22,640
Speaker 2: I live. It's so much easier to give directions to

749
00:46:22,680 --> 00:46:25,600
Speaker 2: anyone because you can just pinpoint different waffle houses and

750
00:46:25,680 --> 00:46:28,120
Speaker 2: you can just once you know where the waffle houses are,

751
00:46:28,160 --> 00:46:30,120
Speaker 2: then you can tell anybody how to get anywhere.

752
00:46:30,120 --> 00:46:35,120
Speaker 1: It's very convenient reference point. But our point is who

753
00:46:35,160 --> 00:46:39,359
Speaker 1: can guess if it is indeed an internal document? Who

754
00:46:39,400 --> 00:46:43,560
Speaker 1: has the foresight to say, thousands of years ago the

755
00:46:43,920 --> 00:46:47,759
Speaker 1: old washer's chamber. I mean, clearly where else would you

756
00:46:47,760 --> 00:46:48,880
Speaker 1: put a washer's chamber?

757
00:46:49,120 --> 00:46:50,680
Speaker 2: But in you know, in what I was saying this

758
00:46:50,760 --> 00:46:53,799
Speaker 2: last thing, yes, you'd have to prove that the old

759
00:46:53,960 --> 00:46:58,160
Speaker 2: washer's chamber existed somewhere near where the scroll was discovered,

760
00:46:58,280 --> 00:47:02,000
Speaker 2: rather than maybe where the scroll was written or originally

761
00:47:02,080 --> 00:47:04,080
Speaker 2: you know, the area that it's speaking to.

762
00:47:04,440 --> 00:47:06,919
Speaker 1: It still may you know? It still makes me think, though,

763
00:47:07,600 --> 00:47:13,880
Speaker 1: of modern English has ruined my understanding of these sorts

764
00:47:13,880 --> 00:47:19,400
Speaker 1: of translations yeah, because in American English, whenever somebody throws

765
00:47:19,440 --> 00:47:23,120
Speaker 1: the phrase the old in front of something, it sounds

766
00:47:23,160 --> 00:47:27,880
Speaker 1: like a euphemism, the old washer's chamber, You know what

767
00:47:27,920 --> 00:47:31,320
Speaker 1: I mean? Is this some sort of strange metaphor for

768
00:47:31,680 --> 00:47:37,600
Speaker 1: the old washer's chamber? Is that like a move? People?

769
00:47:37,640 --> 00:47:41,000
Speaker 2: Do I think it is the old washer?

770
00:47:41,040 --> 00:47:42,560
Speaker 1: Well, it sounds it does sound.

771
00:47:42,280 --> 00:47:43,759
Speaker 2: Like a place. Well, maybe it was just written by

772
00:47:43,760 --> 00:47:45,880
Speaker 2: an old prospector maybe.

773
00:47:45,640 --> 00:47:49,400
Speaker 1: It was written by the original foghorn Leghorn. But despite

774
00:47:49,400 --> 00:47:53,719
Speaker 1: this vagueness, people have insisted on searching. Why would you not?

775
00:47:53,960 --> 00:47:55,680
Speaker 1: You know, you could be a part of one of

776
00:47:55,719 --> 00:48:03,320
Speaker 1: the greatest discoveries in history scrolls. Right in nineteen sixty

777
00:48:03,360 --> 00:48:07,280
Speaker 1: two we saw one of the largest, most extensive hunts

778
00:48:07,520 --> 00:48:10,319
Speaker 1: for the treasures of the Copper Scroll was led by

779
00:48:10,360 --> 00:48:14,480
Speaker 1: a man named John Allegro. He followed some of the

780
00:48:14,520 --> 00:48:18,640
Speaker 1: places listed in the scroll and did their best. He

781
00:48:18,680 --> 00:48:20,760
Speaker 1: and his team did their best to figure out where

782
00:48:20,800 --> 00:48:24,480
Speaker 1: they would be in the modern day. They excavated a

783
00:48:24,600 --> 00:48:30,799
Speaker 1: ton of potential burial places, but eventually they gave up

784
00:48:30,880 --> 00:48:34,560
Speaker 1: and they returned empty handed. There was a more recent

785
00:48:35,280 --> 00:48:40,960
Speaker 1: excavation or exploration attempt by a man named Jim Barfield.

786
00:48:42,000 --> 00:48:46,040
Speaker 1: And Jim Barfield is interesting because he doesn't he believes

787
00:48:46,080 --> 00:48:48,719
Speaker 1: that the treasure was not actually gold and silver. He

788
00:48:48,760 --> 00:48:53,480
Speaker 1: believes that the primary quote unquote loot of the treasure

789
00:48:53,880 --> 00:48:58,280
Speaker 1: would be the vessels and utensils of the Lost Temple.

790
00:48:58,960 --> 00:49:04,319
Speaker 1: And so he did something interesting. He applied triangulation techniques. Right,

791
00:49:04,480 --> 00:49:08,560
Speaker 1: He was kind of cross referencing these ancient texts and

792
00:49:08,640 --> 00:49:12,080
Speaker 1: the references that the copper scroll made in different locations

793
00:49:12,120 --> 00:49:13,920
Speaker 1: because they're all kind of in the same area.

794
00:49:14,000 --> 00:49:18,200
Speaker 2: So smart, right, yeah, absolutely, it's very smart, and it's

795
00:49:18,320 --> 00:49:20,280
Speaker 2: the way that I would do it. And the reason

796
00:49:20,320 --> 00:49:22,920
Speaker 2: why it's interesting that this guy, Jim Barfield did it

797
00:49:22,960 --> 00:49:28,520
Speaker 2: is because he doesn't speak Hebrew, he's not Jewish. He's

798
00:49:28,600 --> 00:49:31,080
Speaker 2: just a guy who's essentially like a treasure hunter or

799
00:49:31,120 --> 00:49:33,759
Speaker 2: you know, someone with an interest in this who had

800
00:49:33,800 --> 00:49:38,520
Speaker 2: some time and resources and just used a technique that

801
00:49:38,640 --> 00:49:42,800
Speaker 2: like an investigator would use. Basically really really cool stuff.

802
00:49:43,120 --> 00:49:46,560
Speaker 2: And so he thinks he actually found some of these

803
00:49:46,600 --> 00:49:50,520
Speaker 2: locations in the surrounding area in Kumran. And there's this

804
00:49:50,640 --> 00:49:52,080
Speaker 2: breaking news Israel.

805
00:49:51,840 --> 00:49:54,360
Speaker 1: Report that which is not the best source.

806
00:49:54,480 --> 00:49:59,000
Speaker 2: It's not I will give you that, but Let's just

807
00:49:59,120 --> 00:50:03,960
Speaker 2: give a quote from that article about his investigation. It says, quote,

808
00:50:04,000 --> 00:50:07,600
Speaker 2: in two thousand and seven, he Barfield went to Kumaran

809
00:50:07,719 --> 00:50:11,200
Speaker 2: and actually found those locations. In one case, the scroll

810
00:50:11,280 --> 00:50:16,040
Speaker 2: describes steps forty cubits long heading east. Barfield did indeed

811
00:50:16,120 --> 00:50:19,960
Speaker 2: find stares conforming to the description. He also discovered the

812
00:50:20,000 --> 00:50:24,359
Speaker 2: remains of a pool precisely forty cubits long, exactly where

813
00:50:24,400 --> 00:50:28,240
Speaker 2: the scroll said it would be. However, there is always

814
00:50:28,280 --> 00:50:31,480
Speaker 2: a twist here or reason why we couldn't fulfill what

815
00:50:31,680 --> 00:50:35,440
Speaker 2: was going to occur finding all this treasure quote, but

816
00:50:35,600 --> 00:50:38,480
Speaker 2: lacking government permission, he could go no further.

817
00:50:39,640 --> 00:50:45,919
Speaker 1: Yeah, yep. So those are the two most prominent expeditions,

818
00:50:45,960 --> 00:50:50,360
Speaker 1: and they both didn't produce anything that was universally agreed

819
00:50:50,400 --> 00:50:52,560
Speaker 1: to be the treasure. That's the best way to say it.

820
00:50:52,840 --> 00:50:56,600
Speaker 2: Well. Yeah, and we humanity, at least to our knowledge

821
00:50:56,920 --> 00:51:01,239
Speaker 2: that has been recorded, has not recovered anything material right

822
00:51:01,320 --> 00:51:02,439
Speaker 2: from any of these Right.

823
00:51:02,760 --> 00:51:07,319
Speaker 1: I believe in one of Barfield's investigations he found a

824
00:51:07,880 --> 00:51:13,719
Speaker 1: rock that was provably man made. So at his at

825
00:51:13,760 --> 00:51:18,600
Speaker 1: this point, he's focusing on matching up physical locations and

826
00:51:18,640 --> 00:51:23,080
Speaker 1: structures or ruins, yes, right, And so he's not immediately

827
00:51:23,120 --> 00:51:26,360
Speaker 1: going after Golds because again he thinks the treasure quote unquote,

828
00:51:26,480 --> 00:51:30,600
Speaker 1: is a different thing. But all this together, as do listeners,

829
00:51:30,640 --> 00:51:35,480
Speaker 1: you'll notice that the last line from Barfield was he

830
00:51:35,520 --> 00:51:39,120
Speaker 1: could go no further because he lacked government permission. This

831
00:51:39,200 --> 00:51:44,000
Speaker 1: brings us to the possibility or the proposed possibility of

832
00:51:44,160 --> 00:51:47,760
Speaker 1: a cover up, because you see, there is no secret

833
00:51:47,880 --> 00:51:51,640
Speaker 1: that there is a war over history in the Middle East.

834
00:51:52,040 --> 00:51:55,360
Speaker 1: Given the historical tension and volatility of the region, the

835
00:51:55,440 --> 00:51:59,120
Speaker 1: government has been very careful about who they allow to

836
00:51:59,160 --> 00:52:03,160
Speaker 1: search this area and when and how. You know what

837
00:52:03,200 --> 00:52:09,040
Speaker 1: I mean, like, if you bring in a potentially damaging equipment,

838
00:52:09,480 --> 00:52:13,000
Speaker 1: you could lose humanity's one shot to figure out some

839
00:52:13,040 --> 00:52:13,960
Speaker 1: of the mysteries here.

840
00:52:14,800 --> 00:52:17,480
Speaker 2: Now. And imagine that you're a treasure hunter who doesn't

841
00:52:17,520 --> 00:52:20,520
Speaker 2: live in the area, and you find a treasure and

842
00:52:20,560 --> 00:52:23,160
Speaker 2: you want to take it out of that area, and

843
00:52:23,280 --> 00:52:26,560
Speaker 2: you're going to go through customs or something, or you know,

844
00:52:27,200 --> 00:52:29,320
Speaker 2: you're going to claim that it is a treasure, and

845
00:52:29,360 --> 00:52:31,879
Speaker 2: you have to claim that it's a treasure in order

846
00:52:31,920 --> 00:52:36,080
Speaker 2: to establish where you found it, when you found it,

847
00:52:36,320 --> 00:52:38,839
Speaker 2: that you're the one that found it. How important it

848
00:52:38,920 --> 00:52:41,360
Speaker 2: is that it's real and authentic. You have to say that.

849
00:52:41,400 --> 00:52:42,600
Speaker 2: You have to raise your hand and say, hey, I

850
00:52:42,600 --> 00:52:43,560
Speaker 2: found treasure.

851
00:52:43,400 --> 00:52:46,480
Speaker 1: Unless you want to go into the illegal.

852
00:52:47,520 --> 00:52:50,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, I know, which is something you can do. However,

853
00:52:50,640 --> 00:52:54,239
Speaker 2: it's it's difficult because then you're getting things verified, you know,

854
00:52:54,560 --> 00:52:57,239
Speaker 2: after the fact, which is a whole it's a whole

855
00:52:57,239 --> 00:53:01,160
Speaker 2: different animal. I'm big in black market antiquities.

856
00:53:02,360 --> 00:53:06,040
Speaker 1: I'm always grateful that you're here when we're doing these

857
00:53:06,080 --> 00:53:09,000
Speaker 1: shows because you know, a lot of a lot of

858
00:53:09,040 --> 00:53:11,359
Speaker 1: the lessons you've learned, You've learned the hard way.

859
00:53:11,560 --> 00:53:14,719
Speaker 2: I really have, Oh my goodness. But we can't get

860
00:53:14,719 --> 00:53:18,120
Speaker 2: into that for legal reasons. So let's okay, let's just

861
00:53:18,200 --> 00:53:22,200
Speaker 2: say it would be difficult because if you do find

862
00:53:22,280 --> 00:53:25,160
Speaker 2: something in this region, you raise your hand and you say, hey,

863
00:53:25,200 --> 00:53:28,160
Speaker 2: I found treasure, then there it's not just going to

864
00:53:28,239 --> 00:53:31,520
Speaker 2: be the local authorities, you know, that are going to

865
00:53:31,719 --> 00:53:32,799
Speaker 2: play ownership over this.

866
00:53:32,880 --> 00:53:37,480
Speaker 1: Now, it'll be academic institutions in this case, will be

867
00:53:37,520 --> 00:53:44,680
Speaker 1: religious institutions as well. Barfield said that he believes he

868
00:53:45,800 --> 00:53:48,319
Speaker 1: clearly believes he was on the right track, and he

869
00:53:48,400 --> 00:53:51,680
Speaker 1: clearly believes he was being stymied in his search, but

870
00:53:51,760 --> 00:53:54,480
Speaker 1: he thought there was a good reason. He said, if

871
00:53:54,520 --> 00:53:58,719
Speaker 1: he discovered anything of value, it would lead to what

872
00:53:58,800 --> 00:54:03,720
Speaker 1: I would call a real ship show because we're family broadcasts.

873
00:54:04,280 --> 00:54:07,680
Speaker 1: And here's what he said. He says he predicted that

874
00:54:07,800 --> 00:54:10,879
Speaker 1: Jordan would claim the land used to belong to them

875
00:54:10,960 --> 00:54:15,000
Speaker 1: if there was something of value discovered. He said, Palestinians

876
00:54:15,040 --> 00:54:18,200
Speaker 1: will claim they were here before this other group, so

877
00:54:18,280 --> 00:54:22,000
Speaker 1: that therefore they'll say whatever they found belongs to us,

878
00:54:22,520 --> 00:54:26,200
Speaker 1: and then the world will believe them. According to Barfield,

879
00:54:26,400 --> 00:54:28,880
Speaker 1: he says, you know, Egypt will come along and say

880
00:54:29,480 --> 00:54:33,120
Speaker 1: that there was a treasure that was taken from the

881
00:54:33,200 --> 00:54:36,880
Speaker 1: land of Egypt during the Exodus, and he says, ultimately

882
00:54:36,920 --> 00:54:40,000
Speaker 1: by keeping it in the ground, the Israeli government is

883
00:54:40,160 --> 00:54:44,000
Speaker 1: protecting it. It's a very interesting way to allege a

884
00:54:44,120 --> 00:54:44,680
Speaker 1: cover up.

885
00:54:44,880 --> 00:54:45,080
Speaker 5: You know.

886
00:54:45,280 --> 00:54:51,760
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, it's certainly interesting. So I don't know, should

887
00:54:51,800 --> 00:54:53,680
Speaker 2: we do we need to get into anything else, Ben,

888
00:54:53,719 --> 00:54:56,480
Speaker 2: I just kind of want to talk a little bit about,

889
00:54:56,680 --> 00:55:01,040
Speaker 2: like what what you think person about this thing? Can

890
00:55:01,120 --> 00:55:02,000
Speaker 2: we get into opinion?

891
00:55:02,040 --> 00:55:06,120
Speaker 1: What I think about the the treasure?

892
00:55:06,360 --> 00:55:08,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, that the scrolls? Like the treasure? What do you

893
00:55:08,800 --> 00:55:09,840
Speaker 2: what do you think it might.

894
00:55:09,719 --> 00:55:13,240
Speaker 1: Still be out there? You really think so quite possibly.

895
00:55:13,680 --> 00:55:17,040
Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's possible that it was all looted.

896
00:55:17,200 --> 00:55:24,480
Speaker 1: It's it's it's not plausible to assume that all of

897
00:55:24,520 --> 00:55:29,440
Speaker 1: these different locations survived. It is possible that a few did, yeah,

898
00:55:29,520 --> 00:55:31,760
Speaker 1: because the only way they would all they would all

899
00:55:31,800 --> 00:55:36,320
Speaker 1: have been found were if they were eventually all sixty

900
00:55:36,320 --> 00:55:39,560
Speaker 1: four were. First off, we're assuming all sixty four actually exist,

901
00:55:39,800 --> 00:55:42,600
Speaker 1: if all sixty four were found one by one, or

902
00:55:42,640 --> 00:55:45,520
Speaker 1: if somebody found that second, more detailed document and then

903
00:55:45,560 --> 00:55:48,560
Speaker 1: went through and somehow did all of this in secret

904
00:55:48,640 --> 00:55:50,239
Speaker 1: and it was forgotten. You know.

905
00:55:51,120 --> 00:55:53,719
Speaker 2: This is my is what I put to you. I

906
00:55:54,320 --> 00:55:57,520
Speaker 2: like what you're saying there. I think I think that

907
00:55:57,520 --> 00:56:02,640
Speaker 2: that copper scroll where was was essentially just discarded there

908
00:56:02,760 --> 00:56:05,920
Speaker 2: or just left there for record keeping at some point.

909
00:56:06,080 --> 00:56:08,919
Speaker 2: Just we've got this collection of scrolls, here's another one.

910
00:56:09,200 --> 00:56:11,520
Speaker 2: It's just gonna be there. This is where it lives

911
00:56:11,520 --> 00:56:14,400
Speaker 2: now because we've already used it to find everything, we

912
00:56:14,440 --> 00:56:17,640
Speaker 2: don't need it anymore. And that second document, like you said,

913
00:56:17,719 --> 00:56:20,480
Speaker 2: was kept by the people that recovered all of the

914
00:56:20,560 --> 00:56:24,439
Speaker 2: treasure because it was I believe that it was from

915
00:56:24,560 --> 00:56:25,840
Speaker 2: probably the Second Temple.

916
00:56:25,960 --> 00:56:27,439
Speaker 1: And you think it was an inside job.

917
00:56:27,520 --> 00:56:30,080
Speaker 2: No, I think I think it was just I think

918
00:56:30,120 --> 00:56:33,880
Speaker 2: we essentially got it's a receipt or it's the the

919
00:56:33,920 --> 00:56:37,440
Speaker 2: old instructions of like, Okay, we've we've accomplished this, we've

920
00:56:37,480 --> 00:56:39,719
Speaker 2: collected everything. We don't need it anymore. We'll just leave

921
00:56:39,760 --> 00:56:43,520
Speaker 2: those instructions there. Doesn't matter if anyone finds any of

922
00:56:43,600 --> 00:56:46,920
Speaker 2: these by burial places anymore, because we've already recovered everything.

923
00:56:47,640 --> 00:56:50,719
Speaker 1: And then, yeah, I could I could see that. I

924
00:56:50,719 --> 00:56:52,880
Speaker 1: could definitely see that. But I do like the idea

925
00:56:52,920 --> 00:56:55,560
Speaker 1: that was an inside job and that there were two documents,

926
00:56:56,520 --> 00:57:01,680
Speaker 1: two scrolls, and then one person totally betrayed everybody. It

927
00:57:01,719 --> 00:57:05,080
Speaker 1: took the second stroll AdPT. I doubt that. I doubt

928
00:57:05,080 --> 00:57:08,959
Speaker 1: that's the case, but it would make for it would

929
00:57:08,960 --> 00:57:12,880
Speaker 1: make for a compelling narrative. This is also taking We

930
00:57:12,960 --> 00:57:16,360
Speaker 1: have to realize too that anything of this age is

931
00:57:17,240 --> 00:57:23,160
Speaker 1: it the value we ascribe to it is only partially financial,

932
00:57:23,240 --> 00:57:25,800
Speaker 1: and it's only a very small part of it. The

933
00:57:25,840 --> 00:57:31,000
Speaker 1: real value becomes an historical value, and that's where we

934
00:57:31,040 --> 00:57:35,080
Speaker 1: see the import there. It can prove, confirm or debunk

935
00:57:35,200 --> 00:57:38,400
Speaker 1: things that we believe about history today, and it could

936
00:57:38,440 --> 00:57:42,440
Speaker 1: also provide evidence of various various stories that have been

937
00:57:42,480 --> 00:57:47,960
Speaker 1: traditionally told, and that that treasure, any treasure, if discovered,

938
00:57:48,000 --> 00:57:53,520
Speaker 1: would immediately become significant in the in the war over history,

939
00:57:53,800 --> 00:57:57,880
Speaker 1: you know, the war over who gets what when? And

940
00:57:58,720 --> 00:58:02,320
Speaker 1: this you know this continue across the world, but the

941
00:58:02,360 --> 00:58:07,840
Speaker 1: Middle East especially has a it's such an ancient land.

942
00:58:07,960 --> 00:58:12,600
Speaker 1: It's been home to immense conflicts over historical claims, religious sites,

943
00:58:13,040 --> 00:58:15,320
Speaker 1: who has the right to go where, when and so on.

944
00:58:19,280 --> 00:58:23,840
Speaker 1: And that's our classic episode for this evening. We can't

945
00:58:23,880 --> 00:58:25,560
Speaker 1: wait to hear your thoughts. It's right let us know

946
00:58:25,600 --> 00:58:25,920
Speaker 1: what you think.

947
00:58:25,920 --> 00:58:28,080
Speaker 3: You can reach you to the Hamil Conspiracy Stuff where

948
00:58:28,080 --> 00:58:32,160
Speaker 3: we exist on Facebook x and YouTube, on Instagram and

949
00:58:32,200 --> 00:58:33,680
Speaker 3: TikTok work Conspiracy Stuff Show.

950
00:58:33,720 --> 00:58:35,960
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951
00:58:36,120 --> 00:58:41,240
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952
00:58:41,280 --> 00:58:43,480
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953
00:58:43,480 --> 00:58:45,600
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954
00:58:45,920 --> 00:58:47,480
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955
00:58:47,480 --> 00:58:50,320
Speaker 2: that voicemail, why not instead send us a good old

956
00:58:50,320 --> 00:58:52,360
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957
00:58:52,440 --> 00:58:55,600
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958
00:58:56,080 --> 00:58:57,760
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959
00:58:58,160 --> 00:59:21,840
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960
00:59:21,960 --> 00:59:24,000
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961
00:59:24,120 --> 00:59:28,640
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962
00:59:28,720 --> 00:59:32,000
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