WEBVTT - Ben McKenzie returns 0:00:00.200 --> 0:00:16.680 Hi, everyone, It's Sophia, Welcome to Work in Progress. Hello, 0:00:16.720 --> 0:00:18.560 and welcome to this week's work in progress. 0:00:18.640 --> 0:00:19.080 Friends. 0:00:19.200 --> 0:00:22.400 We have a friend of the Pod back on today 0:00:22.840 --> 0:00:26.520 and I could not be more elated. I first became 0:00:26.560 --> 0:00:28.760 aware of our guest, as did much of the world, 0:00:28.880 --> 0:00:31.880 when he played Ryan Atwood on the oc But his 0:00:32.080 --> 0:00:37.040 most unexpected second act began during the pandemic when Ben mackenzie, 0:00:37.080 --> 0:00:40.919 himself with an economics degree in Toe, became obsessed with 0:00:40.960 --> 0:00:44.880 figuring out what exactly cryptocurrency was and why some people 0:00:44.960 --> 0:00:47.919 were suddenly getting rich from it. And let me tell 0:00:47.960 --> 0:00:50.840 you what my Brooke Davis sees his Ryan Atwood and 0:00:51.280 --> 0:00:55.520 me as me sees Ben as the brilliant and incredible 0:00:55.560 --> 0:01:00.520 communicator that he is both on screen and off. Communication 0:01:00.640 --> 0:01:03.240 skills and search for answers led him to write his 0:01:03.320 --> 0:01:06.959 best selling book Easy Money, Cryptocurrency, Casino Capitalism, and the 0:01:06.959 --> 0:01:09.520 Golden Age of Fraud, which we talked about on this 0:01:09.640 --> 0:01:12.120 show in twenty twenty four. At the time, he was 0:01:12.160 --> 0:01:15.279 beginning to work on a documentary about the subject, digging 0:01:15.280 --> 0:01:18.000 into the world of crypto and hype and celebrity fraud, 0:01:18.080 --> 0:01:21.080 politics and all the people making money from the chaos, 0:01:21.560 --> 0:01:24.680 and now two years later, the documentary is complete and 0:01:24.760 --> 0:01:29.080 it is nearly time to watch. The film is called 0:01:29.240 --> 0:01:31.560 Everyone Is Lying to You for money. And in the 0:01:31.600 --> 0:01:34.000 time since he began at the world of cryptocurrency has 0:01:34.000 --> 0:01:37.720 gotten even more complex. The industry has poured enormous amounts 0:01:37.760 --> 0:01:40.520 of money I'm talking hundreds of millions of dollars into Washington. 0:01:41.040 --> 0:01:44.240 The Trump family is showing their own cryptocurrency, and Congress 0:01:44.319 --> 0:01:46.639 is now fighting over how and whether or not to 0:01:47.200 --> 0:01:50.360 regulate it. Millions of people have been and continue to 0:01:50.400 --> 0:01:52.680 be believers in the hype, betting on a dream and 0:01:52.720 --> 0:01:56.400 what it could mean. So, knowing what he knows now 0:01:56.560 --> 0:01:59.280 about that hype and about the devastation often left in 0:01:59.320 --> 0:02:02.320 its weak I want to hear from Ben about his learnings, 0:02:02.360 --> 0:02:05.600 his warnings, his wisdom, and what from his point of 0:02:05.640 --> 0:02:08.800 knowledge today he would say to himself even just two 0:02:09.000 --> 0:02:13.919 years ago. Let's dive in with our work in progress. Pal, 0:02:14.120 --> 0:02:29.040 Ben McKenzie, welcome back to the pod, my friend. Instead 0:02:29.040 --> 0:02:33.320 of taking you back in my favorite way to know 0:02:33.840 --> 0:02:35.359 what your life was like when you were a kid, 0:02:35.360 --> 0:02:39.400 since you've answered that question for our OG listeners, let's 0:02:39.400 --> 0:02:41.600 go back to twenty twenty four, because that was your 0:02:41.680 --> 0:02:45.320 last time on the show. You were deep into making 0:02:45.360 --> 0:02:48.480 the doc, and we talked about your advocacy and your 0:02:48.520 --> 0:02:51.920 economics degree and kind of how you started to pull. 0:02:51.760 --> 0:02:52.840 Out the thread of all this. 0:02:55.080 --> 0:02:58.520 What do you feel like you know that Ben in 0:02:58.560 --> 0:03:02.240 twenty twenty four did know yet? Would you give him 0:03:02.240 --> 0:03:04.600 any advice about this endeavor? 0:03:05.120 --> 0:03:09.200 Yeah, I would say I'm glad I didn't know in 0:03:09.280 --> 0:03:11.120 twenty twenty four what I know now in the sense 0:03:11.160 --> 0:03:15.800 of how long it takes to make a movie, how 0:03:15.840 --> 0:03:18.520 tricky it is to get the movie made and then 0:03:18.600 --> 0:03:22.320 as an independent movie to get it released. It's quite challenging, 0:03:22.400 --> 0:03:25.280 and talk about that and why that is. But that 0:03:25.400 --> 0:03:30.000 being said, incredibly grateful for you know, for the fact 0:03:30.040 --> 0:03:31.680 that I have made it, and for all the people 0:03:31.760 --> 0:03:33.880 that I've met along the way, and. 0:03:33.639 --> 0:03:36.920 Lots of people that I wouldn't otherwise have met or 0:03:37.000 --> 0:03:41.640 worked with, because I've met some really incredibly I mean 0:03:41.720 --> 0:03:44.680 just incredibly talented artists who wor worked on this movie, 0:03:44.720 --> 0:03:48.720 but also just incredible people all over the world who 0:03:49.560 --> 0:03:50.080 have some. 0:03:49.960 --> 0:03:53.600 Connection to crypto currency in the sense of being skeptics 0:03:54.440 --> 0:03:59.839 or investigators or what have you. So yeah, I would 0:04:00.040 --> 0:04:02.040 My advice to twenty twenty four to me would be 0:04:02.360 --> 0:04:04.640 take a deep breath. It's going to be a long process. 0:04:05.320 --> 0:04:06.280 Yeah. 0:04:06.520 --> 0:04:06.760 Yeah. 0:04:06.800 --> 0:04:10.000 It's almost like when you when you do any sort 0:04:10.000 --> 0:04:14.120 of construction project and they're like double the timeline and 0:04:14.160 --> 0:04:16.280 double the money. I feel like it's really good advice 0:04:16.279 --> 0:04:17.080 for making movies. 0:04:17.120 --> 0:04:20.400 Also, Yes, that is a very good and the able 0:04:20.520 --> 0:04:24.680 saying about independent movies are never done. You just run 0:04:24.680 --> 0:04:29.440 out of money, and that's pretty much what happened. Just 0:04:30.040 --> 0:04:33.320 at some point have to stop because otherwise it's going 0:04:33.400 --> 0:04:38.600 to be prohibitively expensive. But yeah, yeah, it's it's it's 0:04:38.600 --> 0:04:41.320 been quite a a journey. And then of course, I 0:04:41.360 --> 0:04:44.160 mean you don't have to get sidetracked by the politics, 0:04:44.200 --> 0:04:47.000 but they are kind of important. Here. In twenty twenty four, 0:04:47.880 --> 0:04:52.080 we didn't Trump had an embraced crypto, and so it 0:04:52.160 --> 0:04:55.239 was in a different place than it is now. Yeah, 0:04:55.279 --> 0:05:01.080 and I think the the the shift that so fast, 0:05:01.640 --> 0:05:04.120 you know, it's only been two years. He really embraced 0:05:04.120 --> 0:05:07.080 it in the summer of twenty twenty four, having called 0:05:07.080 --> 0:05:10.360 it a scam as recently as twenty twenty one, so 0:05:11.839 --> 0:05:14.679 he really has since his re election brought it back 0:05:14.800 --> 0:05:18.600 into the sort of forefront of this conversation. I mean, 0:05:19.200 --> 0:05:22.240 AI and crypto, but Crypto is certainly in the news 0:05:22.240 --> 0:05:25.200 a lot in ways I never could have predicted, you 0:05:25.240 --> 0:05:25.800 know back then. 0:05:26.120 --> 0:05:27.960 Well it strikes me, you know when you talk about 0:05:27.960 --> 0:05:30.680 the difference of a few years, particularly with him. There's 0:05:30.680 --> 0:05:33.159 nothing a scammer likes more than being able to get 0:05:33.160 --> 0:05:36.320 in on a scam. And when I first heard about 0:05:36.320 --> 0:05:38.640 the Trump meme coin and the Milaniu meme cooin, you 0:05:38.640 --> 0:05:40.599 were the first person I thought of, and I was 0:05:40.680 --> 0:05:44.240 just like, what the how is this legal? This is 0:05:44.279 --> 0:05:46.520 a this is an influenced scam, This is a money 0:05:46.600 --> 0:05:51.000 laundering scam. And cut to you know, last week, three 0:05:51.040 --> 0:05:53.880 hundred of his accounts were shut down for suspected. 0:05:53.360 --> 0:05:57.000 Money laundering by just one bank, And I'm like, is 0:05:57.040 --> 0:05:58.120 this our real life? 0:05:58.360 --> 0:05:59.880 So I know it took a long time for the 0:06:00.080 --> 0:06:04.280 movie to finish, but I think it's coming at such 0:06:04.320 --> 0:06:08.240 an important time for people to see it, because it's 0:06:08.279 --> 0:06:11.240 impossible to look at the landscape with any sense of 0:06:11.320 --> 0:06:17.800 awareness of current events and not think that this is nuts. 0:06:18.360 --> 0:06:20.400 Yeah. Now, you're absolutely right in a way that I 0:06:20.480 --> 0:06:22.800 never could have predicted. It is more timely than ever, 0:06:24.440 --> 0:06:26.720 and I did squeeze a little Trump reference and at 0:06:26.720 --> 0:06:28.400 the very very end of the movie, as you saw. 0:06:28.560 --> 0:06:35.960 But I think it's it's worth reflecting upon what his 0:06:36.120 --> 0:06:39.080 embrace and it really means, because, as you pointed it out, 0:06:39.480 --> 0:06:41.920 or as you ask the rhetorical question, isn't this illegal? 0:06:43.560 --> 0:06:46.839 It would be right in any normal circumstance to president 0:06:46.839 --> 0:06:48.479 of the United States. I mean, first of all, President 0:06:48.480 --> 0:06:51.039 the United States, profiting off of his office while in 0:06:51.080 --> 0:06:54.160 office is easy illegal, right. We have a thing called 0:06:54.160 --> 0:06:57.359 the Emolument's Clause that prohibits him from getting anything of 0:06:57.480 --> 0:07:02.039 value while in office, and of course his mandated salary. 0:07:02.480 --> 0:07:06.280 And usually these things are you know, pretty rigorously enforced, right, 0:07:06.520 --> 0:07:10.160 like if a foreign government gives you, you know, a 0:07:10.240 --> 0:07:12.880 gold bobble, you are supposed to like put it in, 0:07:13.080 --> 0:07:15.200 you know, in the office and not take it home 0:07:15.320 --> 0:07:19.160 or whatever. And here we have a president who really, 0:07:19.240 --> 0:07:23.760 mainly through cryptocurrency, has enriched himself and his family's in 0:07:23.760 --> 0:07:26.240 the tune of I think it's one point four billion 0:07:26.360 --> 0:07:30.880 dollars in just over a year in office, just based 0:07:30.880 --> 0:07:33.880 off his first year financial records. So it's a really 0:07:33.960 --> 0:07:37.960 staggering level of corruption. And it would be illegal. I 0:07:38.000 --> 0:07:41.400 would say it really is illegal. But the difference is 0:07:41.440 --> 0:07:45.640 when he controls the DOJ and his former personal lawyer 0:07:45.680 --> 0:07:49.480 has now been confirmed to be the Attorney General. There's 0:07:49.520 --> 0:07:53.120 just no you know, the system is broken. 0:07:52.840 --> 0:07:57.200 Down, you know, yes, And something I want to say 0:07:57.200 --> 0:07:59.400 about that, you know, the Todd Blanche of it all. 0:08:00.160 --> 0:08:06.480 Whether people listening are as observant of the red flags 0:08:06.600 --> 0:08:10.680 about the fiscal crimes as you and I are, you know, 0:08:10.760 --> 0:08:13.480 you can go into a completely different arena and even 0:08:13.560 --> 0:08:16.920 consider the fact that Todd Blanche refused to meet with 0:08:16.920 --> 0:08:19.840 Epstein survivors but met with Glene Maxwell for nine hours 0:08:19.840 --> 0:08:22.040 and then transferred her to what is essentially a spa 0:08:22.200 --> 0:08:24.360 prison where she got to have a puppy and gets 0:08:24.400 --> 0:08:27.760 to go to yoga. And people in DC are talking 0:08:27.840 --> 0:08:29.880 about the fact that it is highly likely that he 0:08:29.960 --> 0:08:33.240 will pardon her now that he is in charge of 0:08:33.280 --> 0:08:36.960 the DOJ. And so whether we're talking about crimes against 0:08:37.000 --> 0:08:43.359 women and children or high financial crimes, you know, enriching himself, 0:08:43.880 --> 0:08:47.800 taking bribes untraceable money from you know, foreign leaders and 0:08:47.960 --> 0:08:52.720 business leaders, and you start to see the effects of 0:08:52.760 --> 0:08:56.640 those things, you know, suddenly all of our energy projects 0:08:56.679 --> 0:09:00.120 have been canceled. We've paid four billion dollars to stop 0:09:00.520 --> 0:09:03.440 them instead of to continue things that had already been 0:09:03.440 --> 0:09:06.840 improved and paid for to get us off of fossil fuels, 0:09:07.240 --> 0:09:10.959 which other countries, other peer nations have proven is absolutely possible. 0:09:11.000 --> 0:09:13.040 You know, you look at Germany and Solar for example. 0:09:14.880 --> 0:09:17.480 We don't know how these things are happening because there's 0:09:17.520 --> 0:09:21.360 no oversight. And something I really appreciate about what you're 0:09:21.360 --> 0:09:26.600 helping to educate people about is that at current this 0:09:26.840 --> 0:09:33.560 industry is setting up all the rules around it to 0:09:34.000 --> 0:09:38.920 essentially allow it to govern itself, and no oversight in 0:09:39.000 --> 0:09:43.120 any arena of our political life, which is our entire life, 0:09:43.480 --> 0:09:44.440 is dangerous. 0:09:44.880 --> 0:09:46.600 And I'm really. 0:09:46.280 --> 0:09:51.800 Appreciative that you are able to point out in ways 0:09:51.840 --> 0:09:56.679 that don't feel too heady, that are so factual and 0:09:56.720 --> 0:10:01.200 so obvious, the intersection of crypto political influence and conflicts 0:10:01.240 --> 0:10:07.120 of interest that are unique to the Trump regime certainly, 0:10:07.160 --> 0:10:10.120 and what it's doing to global power in general right now. 0:10:10.720 --> 0:10:13.880 Yeah, yeah, thank you. I you know, you touched on 0:10:13.920 --> 0:10:15.480 a lot of things there, but one of the things 0:10:15.480 --> 0:10:19.280 that we've learned since twenty twenty four, speaking of EPSTEIN, 0:10:20.040 --> 0:10:23.040 is that surprise surprise. Jeffrey Epstein is a big fan 0:10:23.080 --> 0:10:27.360 of cryptocurrency and one was one of the original investors. 0:10:27.400 --> 0:10:31.679 He actually secretly funded a thing called bitcoin core development 0:10:31.920 --> 0:10:34.240 back in twenty fifteen. This came out in the Epstein files. 0:10:34.240 --> 0:10:36.000 There's so much that came out of the Epstein files 0:10:36.000 --> 0:10:38.160 that this obviously it's not, you know, anywhere near the 0:10:38.200 --> 0:10:40.560 top of the list of things that make the news, 0:10:40.640 --> 0:10:43.199 understandably because it really the focus really should be on 0:10:43.240 --> 0:10:48.440 the victims. But really to understand Epstein, part of what 0:10:48.480 --> 0:10:51.880 you do have to understand is his love of cryptocurrency 0:10:52.120 --> 0:10:53.200 and why that would be. 0:10:53.559 --> 0:10:54.480 It's untraceable. 0:10:55.000 --> 0:10:57.439 Yeah, it's not untraceable, but it's difficult to trace. 0:10:57.679 --> 0:10:59.600 It's a great distinction, thank you. 0:10:59.760 --> 0:11:01.720 Yeah, no, but it is tricky and it's hard to 0:11:01.800 --> 0:11:06.599 explain the sense that what the technology behind cryptocurrencies that 0:11:06.679 --> 0:11:11.160 think called blockchain. It's a form of cryptography and it's 0:11:11.240 --> 0:11:14.839 just a ledger, a record of transactions, but the identity 0:11:14.880 --> 0:11:18.800 of the people transacting is obscured. It's a synonymous ledger, 0:11:18.920 --> 0:11:22.079 meaning you know, it just looks like a string of 0:11:22.400 --> 0:11:26.600 numbers and letters, and these different wallets they call them, 0:11:26.600 --> 0:11:29.680 are interacting sending a cryptocurrency back and forth from one 0:11:29.679 --> 0:11:32.319 place to the other. But unless you know who controls 0:11:32.440 --> 0:11:35.600 each of the wallets, you really don't know who's sending 0:11:35.640 --> 0:11:38.160 money where. And so for a guy like Jeffrey Epstein, 0:11:38.320 --> 0:11:42.720 whose primary businesses seem to have been money laundering and 0:11:42.840 --> 0:11:46.640 human sex trafficking, you know, a money that's hard to 0:11:46.679 --> 0:11:50.800 trace would be incredibly valuable. Yes, and so of course 0:11:50.880 --> 0:11:55.560 he was into crypto. And you know, the industry and 0:11:55.679 --> 0:11:58.440 advocates have to grapple with these issues. They can't just 0:11:58.520 --> 0:12:03.960 hand wave them away so deeply, deeply disingenuous to pretend 0:12:03.960 --> 0:12:07.880 as though, you know, because the arguments are always the same. 0:12:07.960 --> 0:12:10.640 It's like, well, there's a lot of Epstein used regular 0:12:10.679 --> 0:12:13.000 money too, and you're like, yeah, of course he did, 0:12:13.080 --> 0:12:15.679 because that's what actual people do as they use money. 0:12:15.679 --> 0:12:19.520 But you can't. This industry was so small when he 0:12:19.559 --> 0:12:22.240 was funding it in twenty fifteen. Jeffrey Epstein was into 0:12:22.320 --> 0:12:25.840 bitcoin before ninety nine percent of the bros who say 0:12:25.840 --> 0:12:28.760 they love it even knew it existed. Like it was 0:12:28.800 --> 0:12:31.960 a tiny, tiny thing and it was not doing that well. 0:12:31.960 --> 0:12:34.920 And he stepped in at this pivotal time and secretly 0:12:34.960 --> 0:12:38.600 funded it through he funded a thing called bitcoin Core Development, 0:12:38.600 --> 0:12:44.400 which is a group of programmers computer engineers who maintain 0:12:44.480 --> 0:12:47.440 its operating system. And he funded it secretly through the 0:12:47.520 --> 0:12:51.600 MIT Media Lab, which is a very controversial lab that's 0:12:51.600 --> 0:12:53.480 now been shut down. That was getting a lot of 0:12:53.520 --> 0:12:56.400 money from a lot of very powerful people, and he 0:12:56.520 --> 0:12:58.800 was doing it secretly because of course he was already 0:12:58.800 --> 0:13:01.720 a registered sex offender, and so in my tea didn't 0:13:01.760 --> 0:13:04.400 want to, you know, announce where they were getting the 0:13:04.440 --> 0:13:09.320 money from. But this is a These are really serious. Uh. 0:13:10.080 --> 0:13:18.080 These are incredibly troubling but unfortunately very logical sort of 0:13:18.200 --> 0:13:21.160 use cases for cryptocurrency. Right when I'm talking about crime, 0:13:21.720 --> 0:13:24.319 it can get kind of abstract. We're talking about foreign 0:13:24.400 --> 0:13:30.800 nations and unfathomable amounts of money. But getting it down 0:13:30.880 --> 0:13:32.840 to someone like Epstein, who really is sort of the 0:13:32.840 --> 0:13:37.120 epitome of evil, and tying in directly to him, him 0:13:37.200 --> 0:13:40.120 tying himself directly to cryptocurrency is something that I think, 0:13:40.760 --> 0:13:43.679 you know, it is unfortunately something we have to keep 0:13:43.720 --> 0:13:46.560 in mind when we talk about the risk, you know, 0:13:46.640 --> 0:13:49.480 the real danger here because as they, like you said, 0:13:49.520 --> 0:13:52.960 as they create rules for themselves, what are those rules 0:13:53.040 --> 0:13:55.760 to do? They benefit the insiders, right Trump and his 0:13:55.840 --> 0:13:58.199 family or the people that run the exchange crypto exchanges 0:13:58.280 --> 0:14:01.040 or issue the crypto coins. But they also benefit people 0:14:01.080 --> 0:14:05.520 that are really serious criminals, and criminals in a way 0:14:05.520 --> 0:14:09.640 that are physically, emotionally, psychologically damaging to people, not just 0:14:09.760 --> 0:14:13.240 financial crimes, which are bad enough, but you know, we're 0:14:13.240 --> 0:14:17.040 talking about the world's most notorious protophile being being really 0:14:17.080 --> 0:14:21.240 into crypto. So yeah, it's it's gotten the Little Dark. 0:14:21.400 --> 0:14:23.520 The movie is a lot of fun, though right from movies. 0:14:23.360 --> 0:14:26.520 The movie is very fun. I will say like, and 0:14:26.600 --> 0:14:31.640 I mentioned, you know before we started the conversation Brava 0:14:31.680 --> 0:14:36.320 to your editor like it the opening sequence. I was like, 0:14:36.480 --> 0:14:39.480 this is my cred movie. You know, you had me 0:14:39.640 --> 0:14:42.120 hyped before I even knew what was coming. 0:14:42.320 --> 0:14:45.200 And it's it really does. It comes out. 0:14:45.120 --> 0:14:49.920 Swinging and it makes you feel alive and it reminds you, 0:14:49.920 --> 0:14:54.760 you know, that that knowledge is a power, and also 0:14:54.920 --> 0:14:57.800 with it, we are very capable, and I think people 0:14:57.880 --> 0:15:00.160 need that in a time where a lot of of 0:15:00.560 --> 0:15:03.640 folks around the world kind of feel like giving up 0:15:03.760 --> 0:15:06.840 because how are they supposed to fight these machines? And 0:15:06.880 --> 0:15:11.240 you really do offer us a window in and a 0:15:11.280 --> 0:15:14.560 reminder that there are things we can do. 0:15:14.600 --> 0:15:17.200 And we're not alone, right, Yeah. I think that's one 0:15:17.240 --> 0:15:21.360 of the mean, neat, sort of really sick tricks of 0:15:21.400 --> 0:15:23.920 the modern world is that we're all on these devices 0:15:23.960 --> 0:15:26.400 all the time and we see all this really all 0:15:26.520 --> 0:15:30.000 horrible stuff through social media, all this divisiveness, and it 0:15:30.040 --> 0:15:32.920 can make you feel lonely and powerless, and we're not. 0:15:33.120 --> 0:15:36.720 You know, we are actually incredibly powerful, even if we're 0:15:36.760 --> 0:15:39.320 right now are going through a through a difficult time. 0:15:39.360 --> 0:15:42.400 So thank you. Yeah. I had the incredible editing staff, 0:15:44.200 --> 0:15:48.760 two principal editors, Drew Blackman and Jen Mackie, and they 0:15:50.280 --> 0:15:52.440 just did a phenomenal job of taking what was a 0:15:52.440 --> 0:15:55.040 lot of sort of like raw material. I didn't I 0:15:55.080 --> 0:15:58.520 didn't have a narrative threat. It was like I go 0:15:58.600 --> 0:16:01.120 to all Salvador, I tell five to the Senate, I 0:16:01.920 --> 0:16:04.280 interview these guys who are now in prison, these fraudsters. 0:16:04.280 --> 0:16:07.920 But we didn't really have a through line. And they 0:16:07.960 --> 0:16:13.560 were really phenomenal in terms of helping me conceptualize it 0:16:13.600 --> 0:16:16.720 and break it down. I love that and simplify, keep 0:16:16.720 --> 0:16:19.120 it simple, keep it simple, to keep it as lovely 0:16:19.160 --> 0:16:19.800 as possible. 0:16:20.000 --> 0:16:22.280 Well, and that's so important too. Because obviously each of 0:16:22.320 --> 0:16:25.720 these conversations, each of these visits are so important and 0:16:26.040 --> 0:16:29.560 it's related. But yes, how do you really distill the 0:16:30.080 --> 0:16:32.480 kind of invisible string through it all? And you guys 0:16:32.480 --> 0:16:36.840 did a beautiful job. We'll be back in just a 0:16:36.880 --> 0:16:46.040 minute after a few words from our favorite sponsors. I'm 0:16:46.080 --> 0:16:49.520 curious you know before you made the doc because obviously 0:16:49.680 --> 0:16:51.120 you know, with all of your work in the book 0:16:51.120 --> 0:16:56.040 and everything that came before this, you talk about how 0:16:57.000 --> 0:16:59.560 your spidy senses were kind of activated when this was 0:16:59.560 --> 0:17:02.680 brought up to you via a friend. You knew that 0:17:02.720 --> 0:17:07.480 there was something about crypto that didn't make sense. Knowing 0:17:07.560 --> 0:17:11.439 everything you know about it now and the structure of 0:17:11.440 --> 0:17:15.359 the industry and the structure of it around the globe, 0:17:16.000 --> 0:17:19.600 do you kind of have more insight as to why 0:17:20.160 --> 0:17:22.000 even before you really knew what it was, you knew 0:17:22.040 --> 0:17:24.159 it was not all above board. 0:17:25.320 --> 0:17:29.920 Yeah, it does kind of go back to the way 0:17:29.960 --> 0:17:34.440 we open the movie, which is money really is trust? 0:17:35.080 --> 0:17:37.840 It really is. It's a made up thing that takes 0:17:37.880 --> 0:17:41.879 different physical forms and now electronic forms. But you know, 0:17:41.920 --> 0:17:45.640 over the years, different different societies have used different physical 0:17:45.680 --> 0:17:51.120 objects in order to avoid having to use the barter system. 0:17:51.560 --> 0:17:53.719 And so when I give you a dollar bill and 0:17:53.800 --> 0:17:56.359 you accept it from me, it's not that you trust 0:17:56.400 --> 0:17:58.320 me per se, but you trust that you can use 0:17:58.359 --> 0:18:00.880 the dollar bill for whatever it is you you want 0:18:00.880 --> 0:18:03.360 to use it for. Crypto says, well, we can avoid 0:18:03.400 --> 0:18:07.119 all of that with that messy human trust, and we 0:18:07.160 --> 0:18:10.480 can just reduce it down to computer code and privately 0:18:10.520 --> 0:18:13.520 owned computer code or sort of a private form of money, 0:18:13.800 --> 0:18:17.439 a money issued by corporations and individuals rather than a 0:18:17.480 --> 0:18:23.040 money that comes from the government. And that's just very dangerous. 0:18:23.080 --> 0:18:27.240 It's incredibly dangerous because it is shifting the trust from 0:18:27.240 --> 0:18:31.879 the public sphere where it's all trust like all people is, 0:18:32.640 --> 0:18:37.399 you know, fragile, infallible, and you see currencies, you know, 0:18:37.480 --> 0:18:43.199 collapse all the time. But at least the trust is 0:18:43.240 --> 0:18:46.960 there in a public setting for all of society to share. 0:18:47.040 --> 0:18:52.080 And if you privatize it, you're going to have you're 0:18:52.080 --> 0:18:54.159 gonna have market manipulation, You're gonna have a lot of 0:18:54.359 --> 0:18:56.480 sort of frausters getting in there, because if they can 0:18:56.560 --> 0:19:00.719 control this system, then what's to stop them from manipulating 0:19:00.720 --> 0:19:06.600 it to their benefit? And even worse than that, there's 0:19:06.640 --> 0:19:08.440 just going to be a lot of crime that's that's 0:19:08.440 --> 0:19:12.399 facilitated via this private money. And that's just what you 0:19:12.440 --> 0:19:17.280 see with crypto. I mean, since we talked, a crypto 0:19:17.320 --> 0:19:21.040 company estimated that one hundred and fifty four billion dollars 0:19:21.200 --> 0:19:25.440 of criminal activity was facilitated the a cryptocurrency in twenty 0:19:25.440 --> 0:19:27.479 twenty five, a long one hundred and fifty four billion. 0:19:27.800 --> 0:19:29.600 So it's just a staggering amount of crime. And I 0:19:29.600 --> 0:19:32.399 guess that's what I kind of try to you know, 0:19:32.440 --> 0:19:35.439 we've had a big public series of public conversations over 0:19:35.480 --> 0:19:42.080 the last several decades about privatizing various public what they 0:19:42.080 --> 0:19:45.240 call an economics public goods, whether it's healthcare, which is 0:19:45.280 --> 0:19:49.480 now you know then largely privatized, or you know, the 0:19:49.560 --> 0:19:54.560 electrical grid or or whatever, and there are there's just 0:19:54.600 --> 0:19:56.920 a lot of danger with that. When you privatize those things, 0:19:57.000 --> 0:20:00.520 we're putting even more control over our daily in the 0:20:00.600 --> 0:20:04.520 hands of corporations and very wealthy individuals who really don't 0:20:04.560 --> 0:20:05.720 deserve our trust. 0:20:05.840 --> 0:20:09.000 Absolutely, and we know, we know that they're not going 0:20:09.080 --> 0:20:10.879 to do the right thing unless they're forced to. We 0:20:11.400 --> 0:20:17.640 see that with deregulation. You know, corporations don't clean waste 0:20:18.040 --> 0:20:25.520 or inspect for bacteria, or parasites unless they're required to. 0:20:26.200 --> 0:20:29.120 And so this idea that we're supposed to trust them 0:20:29.200 --> 0:20:30.159 is so surreal to me. 0:20:30.920 --> 0:20:33.400 And watching this really made me. 0:20:33.480 --> 0:20:35.639 Think because of the way you open the movie, I 0:20:35.640 --> 0:20:37.199 don't want to spoil it, but when I tell you, 0:20:37.280 --> 0:20:39.800 I laughed out. I went, oh, my God, like I 0:20:39.920 --> 0:20:45.439 just burst out laughing. It's so smart. You've spent so 0:20:45.480 --> 0:20:50.480 many years watching smart people believe things that in hindsight 0:20:51.240 --> 0:20:54.080 feel impossible. It feels ridiculous that we ever believed in 0:20:54.600 --> 0:20:59.160 I'm curious about why you think through all your learning, 0:20:59.600 --> 0:21:03.199 human do have a tendency to trust the wrong people. 0:21:03.280 --> 0:21:05.879 And given what you've seen, how do you think we 0:21:05.960 --> 0:21:11.760 recalibrate our willingness or metrics by which we dole out 0:21:11.800 --> 0:21:12.920 our trust? 0:21:14.640 --> 0:21:18.000 And I think we've you know, ever since there's been money, 0:21:18.119 --> 0:21:22.640 people have been trying to lie for money to take 0:21:22.680 --> 0:21:25.560 it from you. Right as soon as there's something of 0:21:25.640 --> 0:21:29.840 value that can be extracted by lye and then some people, 0:21:29.920 --> 0:21:34.080 some small percentage of the population is going to take 0:21:34.119 --> 0:21:36.120 advantage of that. So I don't think that in that 0:21:37.760 --> 0:21:40.639 in a certain sense, I think, you know, crypto is 0:21:40.680 --> 0:21:43.359 just sort of the latest manifestation of something that is 0:21:43.440 --> 0:21:48.720 unfortunately just sort of a part of that, part of 0:21:48.720 --> 0:21:50.959 the fabric of reality, part of a certain you know, 0:21:52.600 --> 0:21:55.240 I think relatively low percentage of the public, but a 0:21:55.280 --> 0:21:57.480 percentage of the public that is willing to do things 0:21:57.480 --> 0:22:00.840 that are you know, really really hard full to others 0:22:01.000 --> 0:22:06.520 for their own benefit. I'd hesitate to know what to 0:22:06.560 --> 0:22:10.440 make of that, other than to say, you know, I 0:22:10.480 --> 0:22:14.879 think crypto is kind of symptomatic of what's happening on 0:22:14.880 --> 0:22:17.520 Capitol Hill right now. It's happening in our system where 0:22:17.760 --> 0:22:21.040 they're trying to codify all of these special rules for 0:22:21.080 --> 0:22:24.239 crypto so it can continue to thrive and criminals can 0:22:24.440 --> 0:22:28.600 continue to benefit, including the present of the United States, 0:22:28.600 --> 0:22:32.360 I hate to say it, and an insiders can win 0:22:32.560 --> 0:22:36.720 where most people are going to lose. That's why is 0:22:36.760 --> 0:22:40.240 that happening. If the majority of the public doesn't already 0:22:40.280 --> 0:22:43.000 trust crypto and only a tiny percentage of the American 0:22:43.000 --> 0:22:45.200 public is really into it, like three percent or something, 0:22:46.600 --> 0:22:50.639 it's because they spend so much money on politicians on 0:22:50.680 --> 0:22:53.840 political campaigns. They just they've spent hundreds of millions of 0:22:53.880 --> 0:23:00.560 dollars either intimidating politicians into you know, supporting if you 0:23:00.600 --> 0:23:03.119 take their money. Then you're supposed to vote for legislation 0:23:03.160 --> 0:23:06.280 that's favorable to the industry, and if you go against them, 0:23:06.280 --> 0:23:08.879 they're going to spend it against you. And I just 0:23:08.880 --> 0:23:12.679 think that is, you know, so illustrative of what of 0:23:12.720 --> 0:23:15.720 the problem you're facing, which is not unique to crypto right, 0:23:15.760 --> 0:23:18.600 the AI industry is doing the same thing. Now we 0:23:18.760 --> 0:23:22.400 have to we're have to change that. The Supreme Court 0:23:22.400 --> 0:23:27.560 decisions is united that allows unlimited, unlimited money from individuals 0:23:27.560 --> 0:23:32.800 and corporations effectively in our political process. It's just you 0:23:32.840 --> 0:23:35.560 can't have that. You can't have that and a functional 0:23:35.560 --> 0:23:37.920 democracy like they just they're just in conflict. 0:23:38.040 --> 0:23:40.960 Yeah, because essentially you turn a democracy into a mafia 0:23:41.000 --> 0:23:45.680 state if there's unlimited access from the top to money, 0:23:45.760 --> 0:23:48.199 it's it's a it's a bully system. It's actually not 0:23:48.280 --> 0:23:49.520 democratic at all. 0:23:50.880 --> 0:23:52.160