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Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is

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Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

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Speaker 1: learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A

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Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt.

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Speaker 2: Our colleague Nola is not here today, but will rejoin

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Speaker 2: us shortly.

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Speaker 3: They call me Ben. We're joined as always with our

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Speaker 3: super producer Ball, Mission Control decond. Most importantly, you are you.

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Speaker 2: You are here.

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Speaker 3: That makes this the stuff they don't want you to know. Matt,

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Speaker 3: would you say, do you have house plants?

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Speaker 2: No? I have zero houseplants. I have plants that live

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Speaker 2: in the backyard.

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Speaker 3: I got some feel I got some houseplants too. You know,

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Speaker 3: I sometimes verge into prepper territory. So it's like, whenever

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Speaker 3: I have green onions, I decide I have to plant them.

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, yeah, we know. Our pal code named Doc

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Speaker 3: Holiday is quite the enthusiast of houseplants.

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Speaker 2: Right yeah, Oh for sure. You know, I'm so nervous

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Speaker 2: about fungus these days. I'm nervous about the types of

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Speaker 2: plants that grow around me in case that fungus wants

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Speaker 2: to hang out with those plants, or maybe.

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Speaker 3: Just mutate, which fungus does all the time. Oh man, Yeah,

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Speaker 3: we've been on a bit of a plant kick here

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Speaker 3: at the studios of Late. We talked about photosynthesis, to

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Speaker 3: whether plants are intelligent and to your point, Met no spoilers,

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Speaker 3: but we have a fascinating episode about fungus on the

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Speaker 3: way and tonight we're veering into somewhat philosophical territory. What

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Speaker 3: exactly is the human plant relationship? I think most of us,

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Speaker 3: even if you have a green thumb, or if you

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Speaker 3: feel like plants just die in a three meter radius

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Speaker 3: of you, I think we all kind of have some

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Speaker 3: assumptions about humans and their relationship to plants. Would you

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Speaker 3: say that's fair?

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, this whole episode. Can I do a

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Speaker 2: quick shout out to Malcolm X Always in my mind

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Speaker 2: this this this episode is we did not domesticate these figs.

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Speaker 2: These figs domesticated us.

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Speaker 3: Said, to the tone of we didn't land on ploth rock. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 3: that's beautiful. Here are the facts, folks. Check out our

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Speaker 3: photosynthesis episode for the basics of plant life, wherein you

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Speaker 3: can hear Matt and I and Noel expounding about just

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Speaker 3: how strange and amazing photosynthesis is it's a superpower. It's

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Speaker 3: massively underrated. It is, in a very real way, the

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Speaker 3: engine upon which most of the natural world runs. And

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Speaker 3: I don't know about you, man, but since we recorded

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Speaker 3: that episode, I walk by plants and sometimes just stare

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Speaker 3: at them.

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Speaker 2: Now, yeah, there are some particular vines in my backyard.

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Speaker 2: I guess that we're planted there by the previous homeowner,

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Speaker 2: and I often watch them, thinking that I am seeing

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Speaker 2: them do their little movement that's kind of a circular motion,

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Speaker 2: like trying to wrap around something. I know in my

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Speaker 2: mind that's probably just the wind moving them, but I imagine

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Speaker 2: them being sentient and able to move in real time,

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Speaker 2: or at least the time that I experience. You're right

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Speaker 2: in seconds, Hm, Yeah, I love it.

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Speaker 3: You can also see plants responding to sunlight, right tracking

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Speaker 3: the movement of the sun. That's amazing. And both of

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Speaker 3: those examples kind of show us that humans have a

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Speaker 3: lot of incorrect assumptions about plants. You know, they're not

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Speaker 3: all created equal. We talked about that a little bit.

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Speaker 3: Some are super adaptable, others can only exist in a

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Speaker 3: very specific set of circumstances. And uh, it's kind of

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Speaker 3: like It reminds me of how amphibians are often the

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Speaker 3: first life forms to go when an ecosystem starts changing

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Speaker 3: because they they rely on a balance of a water

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Speaker 3: system and a land system.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I get the temperature and moisture off by just

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Speaker 2: a little bit and they get wiped out.

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Speaker 3: Same reason. Honestly, it's one of the main reasons I've

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Speaker 3: never had a pet octopus, because those guys are so

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Speaker 3: tough to keep alive in to.

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Speaker 2: Keep in cages or whatever you keep it in.

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Speaker 3: Right, right, Yeah. And the other reason, of course being

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Speaker 3: their abbreviated lifespans.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and their ability to understand that they're alive, we think, right.

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Speaker 3: The fact that an octopus can dream, you, if you

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Speaker 3: are interested in going down a bit of a rabbit

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Speaker 3: hole or a cephalopod hole, then after tonight's show, folks,

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Speaker 3: go to your browser of choice and search for footage

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Speaker 3: of octopus's dreaming. A kid, you not, It's amazing because

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Speaker 3: their chromatophores respond to whatever they're experiencing in the dream.

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Speaker 2: Dude. I watch my dogs dream and it's mostly just

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Speaker 2: like but they're definitely chasing something. I watch.

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Speaker 3: I watch my cat's dream and maybe because they are

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Speaker 3: getting up there in the years, they their dreams seem

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Speaker 3: to be apparently complex. You know, I don't know if

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Speaker 3: this happens with dogs, we know what happens with people.

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Speaker 3: Have you ever been in a situation, Matt where someone

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Speaker 3: wakes up from a dream and in the dream, their

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Speaker 3: dream version of you did something and they kind of like,

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Speaker 3: low key, hold you responsible. That happens to me.

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Speaker 2: I've done that to people in my life, where I

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Speaker 2: have a weird dream about you, whoever you are, and

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Speaker 2: then I'm just I sidhe eye you a little bit

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Speaker 2: more in my waking times. Well, because look, I'm definitely

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Speaker 2: guilty of that, But there is there's a weird thing

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Speaker 2: where sometimes just depending on how your dreams are functioning

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Speaker 2: that particular night, it's like you're putting stuff together. M

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Speaker 2: M yeah, I don't know, man.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, defragging the system, we called it. And some great

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Speaker 3: inventions and discoveries are arrived at in dreams, like I've

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Speaker 3: woken up before I had the answer to a story.

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Speaker 3: Great mathematicians and you know what we're getting off topic,

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Speaker 3: but that's this is fascinating stuff. And I bring up

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Speaker 3: the line between wake and sleep just because dude, again,

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Speaker 3: off topic. I'm pretty convinced. One time recently, one of

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Speaker 3: my cats had a dream and something bad happened in

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Speaker 3: the dream, and when it woke up, it was pissed

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Speaker 3: at me because the dream ben had on something and

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Speaker 3: I don't know how to navigate that situation.

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Speaker 2: Well, it was remembered that time that you asked it

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Speaker 2: very quietly and gently to be quiet while we're recording,

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Speaker 2: and it was like, who is this guy? We're telling me?

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Speaker 2: This big cat that I live with that wears hats

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Speaker 2: sometimes telling me that I can't do this because they don't.

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Speaker 2: Don't cats see other humans as cats, like as part

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Speaker 2: of their pride or whatever.

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Speaker 3: Yes, similar to the way dogs see other animals as

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Speaker 3: part of their pack exactly. And that's that also maybe

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Speaker 3: a result of domestication, right, we have as a civilization,

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Speaker 3: we have domesticated not just animals, but plants, and we

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Speaker 3: don't talk about that too too often, right outside of

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Speaker 3: staple grains.

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Speaker 2: It's weird to think about. We think about developing the

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Speaker 2: arts of farming, right, all the skills and the tools

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Speaker 2: necessary and the techniques, but we don't think about it

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Speaker 2: as actually taking plants and taking care of them, domesticating

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Speaker 2: them to where they can live amongst us or near us,

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Speaker 2: to where we have access to them all the time,

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Speaker 2: being very careful to make sure the temperatures they experience

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Speaker 2: are not too hot or too cold. Right, it is

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Speaker 2: very It is domestication.

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Speaker 3: It's true, man, and getting the right pH balance for

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Speaker 3: the soil, parrying them with other plant life forms, like

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Speaker 3: the Three Sisters of the Great Native American agriculturists. Like.

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Speaker 3: The thing that's nuts to me is that we so

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Speaker 3: often use the term domestication in a way that comes

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Speaker 3: with a lot of baggage, right, because you think of

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Speaker 3: like wild animals versus domesticated animals. So was corn out

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Speaker 3: there just raising hell, drinking every night, you know, skin diving,

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Speaker 3: and someone was like, hey, you got to commit calm down,

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Speaker 3: you need to grow roots. You need to.

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Speaker 2: But there is I think with the term domestication, there

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Speaker 2: is maybe an image contract in my mind at least

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Speaker 2: of training something to be comfortable in a certain environment,

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Speaker 2: which weirdly does apply to taking these plants that grow

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Speaker 2: in the wild and putting them in a brand new environment,

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Speaker 2: getting them used to that and growing well with all

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Speaker 2: those different factors you just mentioned.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and if we look back at the history of this.

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Speaker 3: Experts believe that people began domesticating plants around ten thousand

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Speaker 3: to twelve thousand years ago. Currently, the going bet is

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Speaker 3: that this occurred all over the world at different times

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Speaker 3: and different cultures, but it occurred first, probably in the

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Speaker 3: Tigris and Euphrates River in what would be part of

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Speaker 3: modern day Ira and Ira, Syria and Turkey. And it's

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Speaker 3: nuts because there's some Sherlock Holmes stuff about this. There's

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Speaker 3: a little bit of Maguiver about this. You know, cast

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Speaker 3: your memory back. We're old, very early humans, and we

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Speaker 3: know that you can eat some things. We know you

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Speaker 3: can't eat other things because you know, Uncle Gilgamesh died

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Speaker 3: right getting too big for his breeches with some mushrooms.

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Speaker 3: And so we start, we start collecting these seeds, and

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Speaker 3: then we do exactly what you're describing, Matt. We say, Okay,

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Speaker 3: let's make sure these little guys have some water, Let's

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Speaker 3: make sure we put them through a process of trial

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Speaker 3: and error, I imagine, let's make sure we put them

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Speaker 3: in a place where they are most likely to grow abundantly.

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Speaker 2: Well, yeah, and that's all trial and error too, unless

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Speaker 2: you observe them those plants in the wild growing with

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Speaker 2: partial sunlight or full sunlight, or you know, in the shade,

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Speaker 2: which you know you roll in the dice. But once

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Speaker 2: you figure it out, you can. If you've got a

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Speaker 2: writing system, you can write that down, and everybody who

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Speaker 2: gets access to that information has it. It really is

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Speaker 2: a technology in all its forms. I guess it's not

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Speaker 2: really is growing? Could growing plants be able? Could that

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Speaker 2: be a weapon? I guess it could. You could grow

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Speaker 2: the wrong kinds of plants that can hurt people.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely, you can grow and grow plants that hurt people.

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Speaker 3: You could grow or deploy invasive species that damage another

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Speaker 3: crop or wildlife, and people have done those things. People

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Speaker 3: figure stuff out, you know, and we're never going to

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Speaker 3: know which individuals. Again, across the world, separated by chasms

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Speaker 3: of space and time, we'll never know which ones figured

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Speaker 3: out this little hack. But the world owes them a

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Speaker 3: great debt. These anonymous pioneers are the reason we can

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Speaker 3: do a podcast right now.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Oh for sure, that's why cities are a thing.

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Speaker 3: Yes, we'd still be hunting and gathering right and there's

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Speaker 3: nothing wrong with that. The first domesticated plants, we imagine

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Speaker 3: if we're looking at the Mesopotamian record, were things like wheat, barley, lentils,

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Speaker 3: and surprisingly types of peas. I don't know much about peas.

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Speaker 2: I hope they're English peas. There's still of my favorite

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Speaker 2: things on the planet.

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Speaker 3: I'll tell you, you know. I still every time I'm

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Speaker 3: in a grocery store, and I love the I love

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Speaker 3: the weird vibes of grocery stores. The one can in

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Speaker 3: the vegetable aisle that always stands out to me is

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Speaker 3: that silver foiled peas can because it sounds kind of creepy.

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Speaker 3: They're like very tender, very young, very sweet peas.

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Speaker 2: Ah, it sounds good.

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Speaker 3: It just sounds it sounds like there's a creepy French

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Speaker 3: guy in a trench who is whispering to me in

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Speaker 3: Aisle thirteen, you.

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Speaker 2: Know what I mean. Yeah, yeah, But if you get

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Speaker 2: some paneer and just like a little bit of cream,

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Speaker 2: maybe some spices, put all that together with those young

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Speaker 2: whatever peas dang.

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Speaker 3: Very sweet, very young.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: And we were talking a little bit off air about

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Speaker 3: different like staple grains. I go through a lentile phase

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Speaker 3: every so often, and Matt, do you have a do

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Speaker 3: you have a go to like grain or cereal that

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Speaker 3: you find yourself returning to.

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Speaker 2: It's rice for me. Just some steamed rice, some day

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Speaker 2: old rice. Throw it in an egg and a little

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Speaker 2: bit of butter in a pan or you know, oil

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Speaker 2: in a pan, and just go for it. Maybe some

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Speaker 2: tinned vegetables like peas and carrots and things like that.

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Speaker 2: Good do you go?

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Speaker 3: I love I love a good rice bowl too. It's

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Speaker 3: so easy, man.

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Speaker 2: That's why I like it. I'm not good at anything else.

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Speaker 2: There's this this really delicious I think it's Japanese barbecue

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Speaker 2: sauce that you can find now at many places, at

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Speaker 2: least in Georgia. Hopefully you can find in other places.

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Speaker 2: I don't I can't recall the name of it. But

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Speaker 2: just a little bit of that on top of that rice.

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Speaker 2: That's just cooking, baby.

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Speaker 3: It's all about the seasonings, right, and the sauces. Throw

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Speaker 3: some what you call it for a cock on there

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Speaker 3: and stuff.

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Speaker 2: You're good to go. Then I don't know what that is.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's dude. I'm gonna get you some or you

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Speaker 3: gotta try it if you find it. It's kind of

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Speaker 3: a an all purpose seasoning. It's a dry seasoning or

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Speaker 3: dry condiment and it's just the best.

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Speaker 2: Oh man, I should be more.

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Speaker 3: Articulate about it, but if you've tried it before, then

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Speaker 3: you guys know what we're talking about. It's pretty easy

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Speaker 3: to find. And it also a lot of these sauces

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Speaker 3: themselves derive from plant matter, right, so we're using plants

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Speaker 3: on plants on plants, and I don't know this, This

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Speaker 3: plan to domesticate plants was cartoonishly successful, you know what

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Speaker 3: I mean. The stuff you can buy in a grocery

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Speaker 3: store at your local market. Odds are it did not

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Speaker 3: naturally occur in your part of the world, you know

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Speaker 3: what I mean.

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Speaker 2: Well, it's very likely that the animals that'd eat that

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Speaker 2: stuff that you also enjoy eating, weren't in your part

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Speaker 2: of the world. But hey, by some magic, we all

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Speaker 2: decided these animals taste good and they like to eat

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Speaker 2: these things, and now we're all happy, and Benny Hannas

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Speaker 2: is a thing.

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Speaker 3: Only these, these arbitrarily chosen animals are cool to eat. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: only this list, And we have domesticated them such that

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Speaker 3: we can we can determine their lives that way, right,

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Speaker 3: That's why the most wide widespread non human large animals

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Speaker 3: are livestock animals.

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Speaker 2: Exactly, And we will make as much corn as you need.

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Speaker 2: In fact, we will make two hundred and eighty percent

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Speaker 2: more corn than you and those animals need.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and then we'll figure out what to do with

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Speaker 3: the corn later. Yeah, we'll figure out maybe a syrup

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Speaker 3: of some sort. We're a fuel. Imagine check out our

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Speaker 3: episode what was it how corn took over America or something? Yeah,

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Speaker 3: and look, folks, ancient people, we always have to say this,

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Speaker 3: ancient people were just as smart or as not smart

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Speaker 3: as anyone else alive today. So it should come as

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Speaker 3: no surprise that civilizations in other parts of the planet

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Speaker 3: quickly figured out the wild plants that would be suitable

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Speaker 3: candidates for domestication, like, of course, Eastern Asia rice. You know,

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Speaker 3: South America potatoes, right, tomatoes. It goes on and on

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Speaker 3: and on, and parts of the African continent, of course.

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Speaker 3: But plants weren't just domesticated as a food source.

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Speaker 2: Right, Oh no, dude, Plants do all kinds of things.

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Speaker 2: I remember when we first learned about hemp on this show,

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Speaker 2: and it was the first time I ever knew that

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Speaker 2: hemp was used as a textile of fiber that could

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Speaker 2: be woven and you could create all kinds of things

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Speaker 2: with that stuff. You know, we domesticated sheep one of

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Speaker 2: the primary reasons. The stuff that grows on their backs

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Speaker 2: can make some really great stuff called wool. You know,

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Speaker 2: think about cotton, how just important cotton as a textile

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Speaker 2: in plant was for the United States and other countries

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Speaker 2: around the world. Really bad past, right, but it was

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Speaker 2: massively important and it still is.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, even before the invention of things like the cotton

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Speaker 3: gen when it was very, very labor intensive to gather cotton,

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Speaker 3: it was such a useful crop that society built itself

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Speaker 3: around it too. That you're you're you're pointing out sheep

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Speaker 3: because I gotta tell you. Have you ever spent time

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Speaker 3: with sheep?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? Oh, man, me and sheep, we go way back,

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Speaker 2: You go way back. Yeah, yeah, we go way back.

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Speaker 3: Yes, no, butler fie, I feel bad, man, because you know,

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Speaker 3: if you have worked in I guess the sheep industry

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Speaker 3: or spent time with sheep, tell me if I'm incorrect,

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Speaker 3: maybe I just met a bad sample size. But sheep

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Speaker 3: are kind of dumb.

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Speaker 2: Uh. Well, it's weird because if you compare them to goats,

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Speaker 2: there's definitely a different vibe.

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Speaker 3: Right, I'm just thinking goats have always struck me as

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Speaker 3: kind of the unhinged relatives of sheep.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I've met a few goats. My son and I

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Speaker 2: went to the think a will go in a long story,

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Speaker 2: But my son and I went to the Coming Fair

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Speaker 2: c U, M M I and G Fair in that place.

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Speaker 2: It's in Georgia, it's a town, and there was this

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Speaker 2: one goat. Dude, this one goat was off his rocker.

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Speaker 2: I don't know what happened to him. His eyes were funny,

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Speaker 2: and he was just he would just jump up at

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Speaker 2: you and just make full eye contact with you, just

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Speaker 2: like he I don't know, he was a human in

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Speaker 2: a very recent past life.

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Speaker 3: They do have distinct personalities, right. Lamas are also famous

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Speaker 3: or infamous for this. It reminds me behind the scenes

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Speaker 3: of one of the most excellent recent horror films, The Witch.

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Speaker 3: Apparently the most nightmarish cast member was the goat playing

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Speaker 3: Black Philip. He was like Gary Busey level unhinged. Oh yeah,

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Speaker 3: I always think about that when I see a goat.

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Speaker 3: I'm like, you might be cool now, but I don't

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Speaker 3: know what's gonna what's gonna set you off Man.

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Speaker 2: That's exciting.

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Speaker 3: It is. It is very strange because maybe we're also anthropomorphizing.

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Speaker 3: Maybe we're sticking human framework upon a non human animal,

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Speaker 3: and maybe we've done something similar with plants, which we'll

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Speaker 3: get to one of the most beautiful things. If you're

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Speaker 3: an extraterrestrial or so called artificial intelligence, you meet humans

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Speaker 3: for the first time, you say, tell me about your

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Speaker 3: whole thing with plants, then you might be surprised and

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Speaker 3: find it a little poetic that people also domesticate plants

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Speaker 3: for no material use, just because they're beautiful and people

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Speaker 3: like beautiful things. Like you're not going to see somebody

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Speaker 3: cooking with tulips on the regular or wearing clothing. You're

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Speaker 3: going to see them planting them and looking at them.

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Speaker 2: Oh, it's true. But you can also make those things

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Speaker 2: very useful. If you've domesticated bees, let's say you're trying

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Speaker 2: to produce honey or something. Right, So in a way,

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Speaker 2: even the things that we just kind of take as

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Speaker 2: beautiful in Things to behold do have a pretty unique

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Speaker 2: and interesting purpose, sometimes not always.

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Speaker 3: I agree with that. I think that's a really good

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Speaker 3: point too, man. I love that one because it shows

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Speaker 3: us that this domestication isn't as siloed as we may

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Speaker 3: want to imagine it to be. Right to bees, So

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Speaker 3: this domestication, it's not going process. Somebody doesn't just find

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Speaker 3: corn and then like move the resource as though they're

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Speaker 3: playing a SIMS game. They start selectively breeding this. Every

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Speaker 3: staple crop that you eat is genetically modified. The question

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Speaker 3: is whether it happened recently, whether it happened thousands and

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Speaker 3: thousands and thousands of years ago.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah. The way I would think about it, Ben

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Speaker 2: is maybe it's it's gradual GMO or rapid GMO.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, there we go. And you know, it's crazy because

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Speaker 3: the early human cultures, they encourage the growth of what

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Speaker 3: we would see as positive traits to finding things that

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Speaker 3: are useful to people. More edible parts of the plant,

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Speaker 3: fewer non edible parts, more resistance to temperature right or

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Speaker 3: to lack of water, et cetera, et cetera. And humans

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Speaker 3: wanted these things, by gum, they got them right right now,

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Speaker 3: we got deep on this, but right now people still

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Speaker 3: aren't sure how many different types of plants exist. But

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Speaker 3: if you go to experts like Michael D. Peruganon, then

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Speaker 3: you'll see there are thousands of plants, like well around

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Speaker 3: twenty five hundred that are considered to be semi or

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Speaker 3: fully domesticated, and some of them are very old, date

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Speaker 3: back to the Neolithic. Some of them just got domesticated

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Speaker 3: within the past few centuries.

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Speaker 2: I was gonna I wish I had an example of

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Speaker 2: looking at you whatever, looking at you to macco, Oh,

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00:23:11,920 --> 00:23:14,640
Speaker 2: there we go, there we go. That would be done, right,

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Speaker 2: I think so. And you know, something that's strange to

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Speaker 2: think about here is that the Earth has been around

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Speaker 2: for a long time and plants have been growing and

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Speaker 2: getting obliterated over all, you know, over all of those

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00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:35,399
Speaker 2: millions and millions and millions of years. It's weird to

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Speaker 2: think that we're in a I guess, and what is

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Speaker 2: it called the anthropisine No, that's yeah. And that's where

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Speaker 2: rim like, we have very specific plants that have only

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Speaker 2: been around for a couple thousand years. I've tens of

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Speaker 2: thousands of years.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, right, because there had to be humans to domesticate

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Speaker 3: the things, right, and humans have are still a relatively

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Speaker 3: new fad in Earth's history. I think that's I think

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00:24:03,119 --> 00:24:05,280
Speaker 3: that's an excellent point. And I think we also need

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Speaker 3: to point out that domestication of plants started to become

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Speaker 3: more and more of a focus of early human civilization.

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Speaker 3: You would be less nomadic because now you had a

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Speaker 3: compelling reason to stick around in the same place, because

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Speaker 3: you had to actually make sure the crops grew. And

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Speaker 3: we're not saying plants made people lazy, They just they

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Speaker 3: they ushered in this still not totally understood explosion of

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Speaker 3: new techniques and technologies and processes. People were still hunting

400
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Speaker 3: and gathering and migrating and people still do that today,

401
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Speaker 3: but now they were doing it with a level of

402
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Speaker 3: food security that simply could not exist ever in human

403
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Speaker 3: history before agriculture. And you know, like, looking at it now,

404
00:24:55,840 --> 00:24:59,520
Speaker 3: it fuels with the benefit of retrospect that we can

405
00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:02,760
Speaker 3: be a bit it condescending about it and we can say, oh, yeah,

406
00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:05,480
Speaker 3: sure I would have figured it out. I would have

407
00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:09,040
Speaker 3: done that. But how did they figure this out? How

408
00:25:09,119 --> 00:25:12,760
Speaker 3: on earth did this Bonker's plant actually work? To answer that,

409
00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:15,600
Speaker 3: we got to look at a pretty strange it's called

410
00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:19,359
Speaker 3: a non human conspiracy. What if there's a different explanation.

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Speaker 3: What if the whole time folks, plants were cultivating us

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Speaker 3: and please folks, just you know, our super producer Paul

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Speaker 3: Michion control decand did insert a squeal from a plant?

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Speaker 3: Can squeal, It's just not for a It's not in

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Speaker 3: the range of human hearing.

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Speaker 2: It's ultrasonic squeals.

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Speaker 3: That is the level of sound design you get with

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Speaker 3: this show.

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Speaker 2: Wow. Hey, we'll be right back after a word from

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Speaker 2: our sponsor.

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Speaker 3: Here's where it gets crazy. I don't know, man, what

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Speaker 3: do you think about this? We talked about it a

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Speaker 3: little bit off air. I think.

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Speaker 2: The concept that plants coaxed us into being domesticators or well,

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Speaker 2: I mean, because okay, let's just let's break it down

426
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Speaker 2: a little bit. If we're saying plants potentially domesticated humans,

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Speaker 2: does that mean the plants coaxed the humans to live

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Speaker 2: where they were and to take care of them.

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Speaker 3: Domesticate me, right, is what they were saying. It's a

430
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Speaker 3: good question, right. I mean, it seems that crop domestication

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Speaker 3: is not what we were told many you know, in

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Speaker 3: most conventional classrooms, we're kind of taught that it's this

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Speaker 3: one way street. Yeah, that someone figured out domestication and

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Speaker 3: humanity conquered nature. But I like what you're describing because

435
00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:58,879
Speaker 3: it does feel more accurate. Maybe we could call it

436
00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:03,000
Speaker 3: a weird interspecial group project.

437
00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:07,960
Speaker 2: Oh under our relationship status, it just says it's com complicated.

438
00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:15,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's open, but it's complicated. We still hang out.

439
00:27:15,160 --> 00:27:15,399
Speaker 2: You know.

440
00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:23,320
Speaker 3: So the idea here then is that plant species adapted,

441
00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:29,200
Speaker 3: but they adapted in a kind of symbiosis mutualism. It

442
00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:32,360
Speaker 3: was better for some plants in some ways to have

443
00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:36,080
Speaker 3: human fingers on the scale. Right now, we have these

444
00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:40,680
Speaker 3: all the stuff you just described earlier, a dramatically increased range,

445
00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:45,320
Speaker 3: a ton of genetic advantages you know that simply didn't

446
00:27:45,359 --> 00:27:49,520
Speaker 3: exist in the plant's predecessors. It's kind of super dope

447
00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:55,240
Speaker 3: for the plants on the wide scale, on the evolutionary scale,

448
00:27:55,640 --> 00:27:59,040
Speaker 3: it stinks for you know, if you were thinking, does

449
00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:03,080
Speaker 3: an individual plant have a soul or dreams or aspirations, Well,

450
00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:07,359
Speaker 3: it stinks for that individual plant because its purpose is

451
00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:09,200
Speaker 3: to be killed and consumed.

452
00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:13,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, that is weird. But if you okay, if we

453
00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:17,760
Speaker 2: could truly get into the perspective of corn, if corn

454
00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:23,480
Speaker 2: somehow had an awareness of like a bunch of plants together,

455
00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:29,520
Speaker 2: then corn they've seen the world man like without humans.

456
00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:32,640
Speaker 2: They couldn't have done that, No.

457
00:28:32,840 --> 00:28:36,080
Speaker 3: They would, They wouldn't even be the same plant, right,

458
00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:41,520
Speaker 3: there would be a hardy, inedible grass, yeah creature.

459
00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:44,680
Speaker 2: Then nobody would have been that interested in And now

460
00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:46,640
Speaker 2: they're like one of the hottest things on the planet.

461
00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:47,760
Speaker 3: They're so hot right now.

462
00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:50,360
Speaker 2: Huh. Corn is.

463
00:28:52,280 --> 00:28:55,240
Speaker 3: The band and the food and yeah, that's that's a

464
00:28:55,280 --> 00:28:58,440
Speaker 3: really good point. You know, this has been a success

465
00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:03,200
Speaker 3: story for plants. You can see similar arguments, this co

466
00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:07,000
Speaker 3: evolutionary symbiosis thing. You can see it when you look

467
00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:11,120
Speaker 3: at the evolution of dogs and their relationship with human beings,

468
00:29:11,360 --> 00:29:17,520
Speaker 3: Like dogs have evolved eyebrow muscles to mimic human expressions.

469
00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:20,360
Speaker 3: Dogs are one of the few non human animals that

470
00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:24,720
Speaker 3: understands the concept of pointing. It's just nuts.

471
00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:27,640
Speaker 2: My dog even learned how to wink in like a

472
00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:30,440
Speaker 2: weird kind of way. It's o yeah, trust me.

473
00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:32,360
Speaker 3: Can you describe it.

474
00:29:32,360 --> 00:29:35,120
Speaker 2: It's a dog that stares at you and then winks

475
00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:38,680
Speaker 2: and then just waits for you to react. And depending

476
00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:40,920
Speaker 2: on how you react, maybe it winks with the other

477
00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:45,800
Speaker 2: eye and it just stares yeah, yeah, meow, I'm looking

478
00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:47,520
Speaker 2: at you. Weirdo.

479
00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:48,840
Speaker 3: Did she wink?

480
00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:52,800
Speaker 2: No, she's asleep, probably dreaming.

481
00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:56,520
Speaker 3: Dreaming of winking. And there's a guy that has a

482
00:29:56,520 --> 00:30:00,880
Speaker 3: pretty good perspective on this concept. His name is Hoder.

483
00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:04,680
Speaker 3: Ian Hoder is an archaeologist who as what some of

484
00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:09,640
Speaker 3: us doubtlessly would consider a dream job. For decades, he

485
00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:12,960
Speaker 3: has been deep into the excavation of a little place

486
00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:14,360
Speaker 3: called katal Hyolk.

487
00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:18,280
Speaker 2: Oh wait, that sounds really familiar to me. We've heard

488
00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:24,520
Speaker 2: about this before. It's in Turkey, but I don't know

489
00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:27,840
Speaker 2: anything else. Was it in ancient aliens or something? Is

490
00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:29,520
Speaker 2: that how I have getting flashbacks?

491
00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:32,960
Speaker 3: It recurs. We've mentioned it in several different episodes. It's

492
00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:37,040
Speaker 3: a really weird place. It's like nine thousand something years old.

493
00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:43,200
Speaker 3: There are huge questions about why people built something there,

494
00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:47,520
Speaker 3: how long they lived there, what their day to day

495
00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:52,360
Speaker 3: lives or spiritual beliefs were like it is. It will

496
00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:57,440
Speaker 3: often pop up in ancient civilization stories, ancient alien stories,

497
00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:01,880
Speaker 3: the true origin of human entity type stuff, and it's

498
00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:03,720
Speaker 3: it's a fascinating place.

499
00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:08,800
Speaker 2: Well, and hod believes that this may be where maybe

500
00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:12,600
Speaker 2: not the origin first ever point, but Hoder believes it

501
00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:14,600
Speaker 2: could have been one of the first places where some

502
00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:16,280
Speaker 2: of this domestication was taking place.

503
00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:22,240
Speaker 3: And Hood also doesn't cotton to the idea of you

504
00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:27,320
Speaker 3: know humans as a civilized force taming the natural world. Instead,

505
00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:32,040
Speaker 3: he calls the early interactions between humans and domesticated plants

506
00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:34,600
Speaker 3: the quote first entanglement.

507
00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:40,960
Speaker 2: MM I don't know, I like I like the way

508
00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:42,760
Speaker 2: that sounds. It just sounds a little naughty.

509
00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:50,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, that some pop stars have have influenced the

510
00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:54,000
Speaker 3: way we look at the word entanglement now, right, Yeah,

511
00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:55,920
Speaker 3: and you know who you are. Thanks for tuning in.

512
00:31:56,000 --> 00:32:01,120
Speaker 3: We appreciate your support. Not listening they might be so,

513
00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:08,520
Speaker 3: Hoader said. Look, as plants became increasingly domesticated, humans became

514
00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:12,600
Speaker 3: increasingly dependent upon those crops, and that meant they would

515
00:32:12,640 --> 00:32:15,880
Speaker 3: do their absolute best to make sure crops survived to

516
00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:19,760
Speaker 3: harvest and could be regrown, hopefully over a larger amount

517
00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:23,320
Speaker 3: of territory the next year. But at the same time,

518
00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:27,640
Speaker 3: you know, as the seasons tick on, our good friends,

519
00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:32,320
Speaker 3: the plants become increasingly reliant on humans. They got a

520
00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:33,440
Speaker 3: little too comfortable.

521
00:32:34,800 --> 00:32:40,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, and isn't there a story about wheat kind of

522
00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:43,640
Speaker 2: became so dependent on humans that it was difficult to

523
00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:47,640
Speaker 2: find specific strains of it in the wild anymore. It

524
00:32:47,720 --> 00:32:50,200
Speaker 2: was basically like, oh, that's the wheat that you got

525
00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:52,880
Speaker 2: to grow on that specific soil that those humans got.

526
00:32:54,200 --> 00:33:01,480
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, exactly. This is a perfect example because multiple

527
00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:05,840
Speaker 3: plants cannot can no longer reproduce in their current form

528
00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:10,880
Speaker 3: without human intervention. And it's kind of a fascinating thing, right.

529
00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:15,200
Speaker 3: It reminds me of some fruits that have you know,

530
00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:18,239
Speaker 3: that have a pit like picture. I don't like an

531
00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:24,880
Speaker 3: avocado or something. Those things were reliant on dinosaurs to

532
00:33:25,800 --> 00:33:29,040
Speaker 3: eat them and then transport them by passing them through

533
00:33:29,080 --> 00:33:32,880
Speaker 3: their intestines as they you know, walked and dinoed around.

534
00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:39,360
Speaker 2: Wow, it's it's given me flashes of human domestication when

535
00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:43,040
Speaker 2: whatever the next thing comes along and decides that we're

536
00:33:43,120 --> 00:33:44,720
Speaker 2: cute and worth keeping around.

537
00:33:45,520 --> 00:33:47,920
Speaker 3: You know, if only we could breed them to have

538
00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:49,840
Speaker 3: bigger eyes and ears. Right.

539
00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:52,600
Speaker 2: Well yeah, well and they can't breed anymore unless we

540
00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:56,440
Speaker 2: intervene and you know, help out. But that's fine. If

541
00:33:56,440 --> 00:33:59,920
Speaker 2: you need one, we've got it. Specialized companies that provide

542
00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:03,160
Speaker 2: you know, pretty good humans, actually pretty good.

543
00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:06,400
Speaker 3: Make sure you get your humans from a certified human provider.

544
00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:08,240
Speaker 3: Watch out for those kiddie mills.

545
00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:12,359
Speaker 2: Oh wow, that's exactly what pray too.

546
00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:16,600
Speaker 3: Yeah right, that's what happens. But Okay, it's weird then,

547
00:34:16,719 --> 00:34:20,480
Speaker 3: because what Hoder and other experts are arguing is that

548
00:34:22,680 --> 00:34:28,560
Speaker 3: domestication made humans and some plants codependent. They entered a

549
00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:32,960
Speaker 3: codependent relationship. And now again to the point about entanglements,

550
00:34:33,280 --> 00:34:38,320
Speaker 3: codependent carries its own not super great implications in modern.

551
00:34:38,120 --> 00:34:41,600
Speaker 2: Foolish well, of course not well, because if you've got

552
00:34:41,640 --> 00:34:46,120
Speaker 2: a reliable source of you know, wheat, barley, whatever, one

553
00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:48,920
Speaker 2: of these plants that is a staple, right, you can

554
00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:51,759
Speaker 2: have more people join up and hang out around where

555
00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:55,359
Speaker 2: those crops are. Then now you really depend on those

556
00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:57,840
Speaker 2: crops because if you don't have them, you can't feed

557
00:34:57,920 --> 00:34:59,799
Speaker 2: all the people that are there, and if you're not

558
00:34:59,800 --> 00:35:02,920
Speaker 2: made and enough, you can't feed them. But you're also

559
00:35:03,080 --> 00:35:07,319
Speaker 2: adding in the economics of the whole system, where you're

560
00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:09,640
Speaker 2: not only making that crop to feed all the people

561
00:35:10,040 --> 00:35:12,840
Speaker 2: who now lived there, you are making that crop to

562
00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:16,160
Speaker 2: make money or whatever to trade, right, to bring other

563
00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:17,879
Speaker 2: things in that those people also need.

564
00:35:19,080 --> 00:35:23,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, that's absolutely it. The system builds upon itself.

565
00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:27,120
Speaker 3: We talked about this in the past, man, but remember

566
00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:30,200
Speaker 3: that book Sapiens by 'vall Noah Harari.

567
00:35:30,960 --> 00:35:32,879
Speaker 2: I have heard you talk about I think Knowel's read

568
00:35:32,920 --> 00:35:35,200
Speaker 2: parts of it too. I've not read it, but it

569
00:35:35,239 --> 00:35:38,120
Speaker 2: sounds amazing every time we talk about it.

570
00:35:38,120 --> 00:35:40,560
Speaker 3: It's a great think piece book. Now, a lot of

571
00:35:40,920 --> 00:35:44,960
Speaker 3: scientists and subject matter experts get their dander up about

572
00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:49,680
Speaker 3: certain passages, but Harari talks about this as well, this

573
00:35:49,960 --> 00:35:55,120
Speaker 3: plant human relationship, and he specifically says the agricultural revolution

574
00:35:55,480 --> 00:35:59,440
Speaker 3: was history's biggest fraud and that wheat and rice and

575
00:35:59,440 --> 00:36:03,760
Speaker 3: potatoes domesticated Homo sapiens rather than the other way around.

576
00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:07,040
Speaker 2: Sure, Harari, I still don't get it, but I mean

577
00:36:07,120 --> 00:36:11,880
Speaker 2: I kind of see the argument. I just don't understand

578
00:36:11,960 --> 00:36:17,000
Speaker 2: how there's what actions were taken by the plants to

579
00:36:17,120 --> 00:36:19,640
Speaker 2: domesticate the humans. That's what I want to know.

580
00:36:20,239 --> 00:36:23,479
Speaker 3: Yeah, same right, And you know, do check out the book.

581
00:36:24,040 --> 00:36:27,160
Speaker 3: It is worth a read. You can also see new

582
00:36:27,239 --> 00:36:32,160
Speaker 3: research that has been conducted, including a multi university thing

583
00:36:32,239 --> 00:36:37,439
Speaker 3: in Europe where they're trying to prove or maybe they're

584
00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:42,800
Speaker 3: trying to address or support the suppositions of people like Harari.

585
00:36:43,239 --> 00:36:46,120
Speaker 3: But I'm with you, I'm Tea Matt on this. This

586
00:36:46,239 --> 00:36:50,200
Speaker 3: takes us all the way to one of the strangest

587
00:36:50,239 --> 00:36:53,600
Speaker 3: topics we've grappled with in the history of this show.

588
00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:58,200
Speaker 3: To your question, what did plants do? We always think

589
00:36:58,239 --> 00:37:02,840
Speaker 3: of plants as these passive, these passive creatures right, just

590
00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:07,000
Speaker 3: encountering the world around them. But this idea of flipping

591
00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:10,600
Speaker 3: the script here, it brings us to the sticky, complicated

592
00:37:10,680 --> 00:37:17,200
Speaker 3: notion of something called plant intelligence. Dunk dun, dum oh.

593
00:37:17,239 --> 00:37:19,840
Speaker 2: We have a video on this owner YouTube channel. Go

594
00:37:19,960 --> 00:37:21,040
Speaker 2: in check it out.

595
00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:28,080
Speaker 3: Plant intelligence. Okay, at first, yeah, might sound pretty nuts,

596
00:37:28,120 --> 00:37:29,080
Speaker 3: no pun left behind.

597
00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:32,800
Speaker 2: Uh well, it always makes me think about carnivorous plants

598
00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:36,279
Speaker 2: for some reason. I don't know why. I associate the

599
00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:40,520
Speaker 2: act of eating another creature, like a living creature, by

600
00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:45,680
Speaker 2: that is somehow intelligence, But I know it's not. It's

601
00:37:45,719 --> 00:37:47,280
Speaker 2: just that's what I think about.

602
00:37:47,560 --> 00:37:50,000
Speaker 3: It's one of the oldest covenants for sure. You know

603
00:37:50,239 --> 00:37:52,440
Speaker 3: also that's a creepy way to describe it. But I

604
00:37:52,480 --> 00:37:55,919
Speaker 3: agree with you, yep, that's also I mean, think about

605
00:37:55,960 --> 00:38:01,560
Speaker 3: it too when when when predators evolve, they tend to

606
00:38:02,960 --> 00:38:05,960
Speaker 3: exercise what we call a higher degree of intelligence than

607
00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:09,920
Speaker 3: prey animals. So that transfers maybe to our image of

608
00:38:09,920 --> 00:38:13,680
Speaker 3: a carnivorous plant. Also feed me seymore little Shop of

609
00:38:13,719 --> 00:38:18,000
Speaker 3: Horrors stem Disterned banger, best song about dentists in the

610
00:38:18,080 --> 00:38:19,160
Speaker 3: history of musical theater.

611
00:38:20,200 --> 00:38:24,240
Speaker 2: Due, yes, right, yeah, oh I do, I definitely remember.

612
00:38:24,840 --> 00:38:31,640
Speaker 2: But there's something about it's not planning that's necessary. Maybe

613
00:38:31,640 --> 00:38:37,160
Speaker 2: it's just cunning that's necessary to hunt something successfully and

614
00:38:37,239 --> 00:38:40,719
Speaker 2: to be like a predator that's large enough to be

615
00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:44,480
Speaker 2: successful enough to sustain itself for a long period of time.

616
00:38:45,520 --> 00:38:49,200
Speaker 2: To me, it speaks to some kind of as you're saying, intelligence,

617
00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:51,440
Speaker 2: or at least I think the word is cunning for me.

618
00:38:52,120 --> 00:38:56,759
Speaker 3: And there's a convergent evolution too that we see in predators, right,

619
00:38:56,880 --> 00:38:59,919
Speaker 3: that's where the eyes start to shift towards the front

620
00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:03,680
Speaker 3: of the face. You know, you get different types of

621
00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:07,560
Speaker 3: muscle et cetera, et cetera, muscle groups rather. I also,

622
00:39:08,160 --> 00:39:11,040
Speaker 3: you know, we got to point out there are carnivorous

623
00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:15,600
Speaker 3: plants that aren't necessarily go getters the way that humans

624
00:39:15,640 --> 00:39:17,680
Speaker 3: think about them, right, the ones that are just evil

625
00:39:17,760 --> 00:39:19,279
Speaker 3: cups basically.

626
00:39:19,520 --> 00:39:23,440
Speaker 2: Well yeah, well even again, I don't know if it's

627
00:39:23,480 --> 00:39:25,960
Speaker 2: the documentaries we've seen in the past, all of us

628
00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:29,000
Speaker 2: together collectively, but like a venus fly trap, when you

629
00:39:29,080 --> 00:39:32,399
Speaker 2: learn about the system of those little it's feelers They're

630
00:39:32,440 --> 00:39:35,279
Speaker 2: like hairs that are inside, right, And it's just a

631
00:39:35,320 --> 00:39:37,680
Speaker 2: system where you trip it twice in a short time span.

632
00:39:37,719 --> 00:39:41,239
Speaker 2: The thing closes and it waits, it digests, and then

633
00:39:41,280 --> 00:39:45,680
Speaker 2: opens again. It's a pretty simple system. But is there

634
00:39:45,719 --> 00:39:46,880
Speaker 2: intelligence in there?

635
00:39:48,040 --> 00:39:52,360
Speaker 3: Yeah? Or is it cunning? How do we define intelligence

636
00:39:52,480 --> 00:39:55,560
Speaker 3: and cunning? I think a lot of the when we

637
00:39:55,880 --> 00:39:59,360
Speaker 3: dismiss the idea of plant intelligence. Check out our earlier

638
00:39:59,360 --> 00:40:03,279
Speaker 3: episode on that. What the people who dismiss that are

639
00:40:03,719 --> 00:40:08,800
Speaker 3: making an error. I would argue they're conflating two related

640
00:40:08,920 --> 00:40:12,839
Speaker 3: yet distinct concepts, intelligence and sentience.

641
00:40:13,480 --> 00:40:16,560
Speaker 2: And let us explore it. After a quick word from

642
00:40:16,600 --> 00:40:17,640
Speaker 2: our sponsor.

643
00:40:24,000 --> 00:40:27,719
Speaker 3: And we have returned. Shout out to all the plants

644
00:40:28,040 --> 00:40:32,799
Speaker 3: tuning in to tonight's podcast. However, you're hearing this right

645
00:40:32,800 --> 00:40:33,760
Speaker 3: as a plants email.

646
00:40:34,680 --> 00:40:37,279
Speaker 2: All right, No, look, now that you said that, I

647
00:40:37,320 --> 00:40:40,080
Speaker 2: am going to find a way to take these headphones

648
00:40:40,120 --> 00:40:44,280
Speaker 2: outside and play this episode for I've got a rose bush,

649
00:40:44,320 --> 00:40:46,000
Speaker 2: so I'll see what i can do.

650
00:40:46,640 --> 00:40:50,000
Speaker 3: That's awesome, and we do know that plants. Oh, there's

651
00:40:50,040 --> 00:40:53,520
Speaker 3: this fascinating a series of studies that show us plants

652
00:40:53,800 --> 00:40:59,200
Speaker 3: do seem to react to music, to voices, but it's

653
00:40:59,239 --> 00:41:02,480
Speaker 3: kind of like maybe a dog reacting to humans in

654
00:41:02,560 --> 00:41:06,600
Speaker 3: some way. They may not be getting, you know, they

655
00:41:06,600 --> 00:41:10,760
Speaker 3: may not be aware that you are playing Glenn Miller

656
00:41:10,840 --> 00:41:13,719
Speaker 3: for them, but they may be reacting to some sort

657
00:41:13,760 --> 00:41:15,280
Speaker 3: of note or vibration.

658
00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:18,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, man, those trombones.

659
00:41:18,560 --> 00:41:24,680
Speaker 3: M h yeah, big fans of trombones. Plants, Oh boy,

660
00:41:25,760 --> 00:41:29,040
Speaker 3: this is why we got kicked out of botany class.

661
00:41:29,040 --> 00:41:32,200
Speaker 3: Someone who would have agreed with us is an actual botanist,

662
00:41:32,320 --> 00:41:37,400
Speaker 3: an Italian botanist named Stefano Mancuzo, and Mencuzo argues that

663
00:41:37,480 --> 00:41:42,000
Speaker 3: humans have always dramatically underestimated what he sees as the

664
00:41:42,040 --> 00:41:47,000
Speaker 3: intelligence of plants, just because we're coming from the human perspective,

665
00:41:47,280 --> 00:41:47,919
Speaker 3: you know what I mean.

666
00:41:48,280 --> 00:41:51,759
Speaker 2: Yes, and men Cuzo wrote a book titled The Incredible

667
00:41:51,840 --> 00:41:57,040
Speaker 2: Journey of Plants. Oh buddy, I love it. I love

668
00:41:57,080 --> 00:41:59,400
Speaker 2: the idea. It's kind of what we're exploring here today.

669
00:41:59,480 --> 00:42:02,680
Speaker 2: And he thinks that if we look at the if

670
00:42:02,680 --> 00:42:05,840
Speaker 2: we look at plants all together, or a plant outside

671
00:42:05,880 --> 00:42:09,440
Speaker 2: of what he calls the animal filter, then there are

672
00:42:09,760 --> 00:42:14,640
Speaker 2: other qualities, like they're mind blowing qualities will emerge. But

673
00:42:14,920 --> 00:42:17,839
Speaker 2: you know, you've got to take your brain out of

674
00:42:17,880 --> 00:42:21,800
Speaker 2: that whole, like, this is a plant and this is

675
00:42:21,840 --> 00:42:26,000
Speaker 2: an animal. Animals run and bark and meow and they're great.

676
00:42:26,320 --> 00:42:29,200
Speaker 2: This plant sits and grows. Okay, you've got to take

677
00:42:29,200 --> 00:42:33,680
Speaker 2: yourself away from that differentiation, I guess.

678
00:42:34,160 --> 00:42:36,520
Speaker 3: Yeah. And then when you do that, you see all

679
00:42:36,560 --> 00:42:42,360
Speaker 3: these strange actions that plants take. You know, they seeds

680
00:42:42,400 --> 00:42:49,480
Speaker 3: that hitchhike. The adaptations that plants have evolved to spread

681
00:42:49,520 --> 00:42:53,160
Speaker 3: themselves are nothing short of astonishing. Like what are what's

682
00:42:53,160 --> 00:42:55,759
Speaker 3: the name for those seeds that spin when you throw

683
00:42:55,800 --> 00:42:57,400
Speaker 3: them here in the air.

684
00:42:58,400 --> 00:43:02,080
Speaker 2: In the helicopter seeds. Helicopter seeds you heard, I don't

685
00:43:02,080 --> 00:43:02,839
Speaker 2: know what they're going.

686
00:43:03,360 --> 00:43:07,200
Speaker 3: There's something called the dynamite tree, the heroicrepitons that can

687
00:43:07,200 --> 00:43:10,919
Speaker 3: shoot fruit capsules up over three hundred feet away.

688
00:43:11,400 --> 00:43:14,640
Speaker 2: M h. I've seen that in slow motion in one

689
00:43:14,640 --> 00:43:16,000
Speaker 2: of them nature documentaries.

690
00:43:17,560 --> 00:43:22,120
Speaker 3: Plants can thrive after man made disasters like the nuclear

691
00:43:22,160 --> 00:43:27,520
Speaker 3: meltdown at Chernobyl, And then plants also can basically nap

692
00:43:27,960 --> 00:43:31,160
Speaker 3: for thousands of years. They can just go dormant and

693
00:43:31,200 --> 00:43:33,320
Speaker 3: then you give them the water, you give them the soil,

694
00:43:33,640 --> 00:43:35,000
Speaker 3: and then just right back at it.

695
00:43:35,480 --> 00:43:38,399
Speaker 2: Yeah, man, Just like viruses in the Arctic.

696
00:43:39,640 --> 00:43:44,359
Speaker 3: Or the Siberian permafrost. Yeah, we're fine, We're fine, and

697
00:43:44,480 --> 00:43:48,440
Speaker 3: look at this point, you know, rightly, with some validity,

698
00:43:48,760 --> 00:43:52,880
Speaker 3: we might collectively groan and say, come on, guys, come on,

699
00:43:53,040 --> 00:43:57,280
Speaker 3: Matt and when they call bin adaptation does not necessarily

700
00:43:57,320 --> 00:44:02,720
Speaker 3: imply intelligence. Evolution is a brute force hack. Evolution occurred

701
00:44:02,760 --> 00:44:05,399
Speaker 3: before humans were a thing. It's not as if any

702
00:44:05,440 --> 00:44:08,680
Speaker 3: of these plant life forms woke up one evening and

703
00:44:08,719 --> 00:44:14,440
Speaker 3: decided to mutate, is it? Because the tricky thing is

704
00:44:15,719 --> 00:44:19,919
Speaker 3: to understand that we would have to have humanity would

705
00:44:19,960 --> 00:44:26,400
Speaker 3: have to have a definition of intelligence, like a good one,

706
00:44:26,840 --> 00:44:27,920
Speaker 3: and humanity does not.

707
00:44:28,200 --> 00:44:35,160
Speaker 2: Right. Yeah, well, humanity's version of intelligence or definition of

708
00:44:35,160 --> 00:44:40,480
Speaker 2: intelligence is like you're good at being. Not really, that's

709
00:44:40,520 --> 00:44:42,600
Speaker 2: not really it, But it's close to that, isn't it.

710
00:44:43,120 --> 00:44:47,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, it depends on what school of thought we subscribe to,

711
00:44:47,760 --> 00:44:54,560
Speaker 3: Like multipolar intelligence would say there are discrete genres of

712
00:44:54,719 --> 00:44:58,760
Speaker 3: good at being right, you are good at numbers being,

713
00:44:59,200 --> 00:45:03,040
Speaker 3: you are a good at interpersonal relationship being, et cetera,

714
00:45:03,120 --> 00:45:06,440
Speaker 3: et cetera, and a lot of educational systems are based

715
00:45:06,440 --> 00:45:10,080
Speaker 3: off those distinctions. But if we look at the most

716
00:45:10,120 --> 00:45:14,839
Speaker 3: basic operative definition, I think we could say intelligence can

717
00:45:14,880 --> 00:45:19,360
Speaker 3: be defined as the ability to operate successfully in a

718
00:45:19,400 --> 00:45:22,800
Speaker 3: given environment, which means you might be very very smart

719
00:45:23,080 --> 00:45:27,400
Speaker 3: in one scenario, very very dumb in another one.

720
00:45:27,600 --> 00:45:33,160
Speaker 2: Oh so, like you can't successfully put together that bathroom

721
00:45:33,280 --> 00:45:36,600
Speaker 2: vanity that you just bought or the sink that you're

722
00:45:36,640 --> 00:45:39,440
Speaker 2: supposed to put into it. Wait and hold on, I'm

723
00:45:39,480 --> 00:45:42,480
Speaker 2: just being self depregad I can't do that stuff, So

724
00:45:42,520 --> 00:45:46,440
Speaker 2: I'm not intelligent in the putting together vanity sets arena.

725
00:45:47,600 --> 00:45:51,080
Speaker 3: You know, it's the differences that the fight us. All Right,

726
00:45:51,120 --> 00:45:52,680
Speaker 3: I would be I think I would be in the

727
00:45:52,719 --> 00:45:57,080
Speaker 3: same remedial vanity set class because there's a trick to it,

728
00:45:57,160 --> 00:46:00,840
Speaker 3: you know. Also, like, yeah, to that example, Let's say

729
00:46:01,040 --> 00:46:06,720
Speaker 3: you're a physics professor and you take an entry level

730
00:46:07,200 --> 00:46:11,400
Speaker 3: physics mid term that kids take in undergrad. You're gonna

731
00:46:11,400 --> 00:46:14,520
Speaker 3: ace it because you teach it. You're very intelligent in

732
00:46:14,520 --> 00:46:18,920
Speaker 3: that world of physics. But then let's let's see if

733
00:46:18,960 --> 00:46:23,400
Speaker 3: you can get together with other physicists and successfully install

734
00:46:23,560 --> 00:46:24,680
Speaker 3: and hang a door.

735
00:46:25,719 --> 00:46:29,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm actually I bet they could. I bet they could.

736
00:46:29,239 --> 00:46:33,360
Speaker 3: It's so tough, it's so tough, and this is not

737
00:46:33,480 --> 00:46:37,120
Speaker 3: us duncan on physicists. This is us say, it's so tough.

738
00:46:36,920 --> 00:46:43,360
Speaker 2: To make a door work, right, Yeah, things correct exactly?

739
00:46:44,080 --> 00:46:49,040
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah. And so in that, in that hypothetical situation,

740
00:46:49,520 --> 00:46:53,640
Speaker 3: we see the same entity being considered very, very intelligent,

741
00:46:54,000 --> 00:46:58,080
Speaker 3: and then maybe not as intelligent depending upon the changes

742
00:46:58,239 --> 00:47:03,280
Speaker 3: of their environment. And then if we remove the animal

743
00:47:03,320 --> 00:47:07,680
Speaker 3: filter man Quzo's talking about, then we see that plants

744
00:47:07,840 --> 00:47:11,600
Speaker 3: are another type of life form or collections of life forms,

745
00:47:11,640 --> 00:47:16,880
Speaker 3: behaving in a pretty fascinating, dare we say, intelligent manner?

746
00:47:17,360 --> 00:47:19,799
Speaker 3: Like you said, plants travel the world, you.

747
00:47:19,719 --> 00:47:20,200
Speaker 1: Know what I mean.

748
00:47:20,239 --> 00:47:22,400
Speaker 3: I don't care how many stamps are on your passport.

749
00:47:22,480 --> 00:47:28,600
Speaker 3: There is a plant that has been more places than you.

750
00:47:25,960 --> 00:47:29,759
Speaker 2: No, yeah, you're probably right.

751
00:47:30,480 --> 00:47:33,359
Speaker 3: It's a weird it's a weird observation, it is.

752
00:47:33,440 --> 00:47:38,160
Speaker 2: But and it's also weird to think about a specific

753
00:47:38,320 --> 00:47:42,479
Speaker 2: plant because there are some trees, right that are much

754
00:47:42,480 --> 00:47:49,520
Speaker 2: older than the oldest human being. But it's one tree, right,

755
00:47:50,120 --> 00:47:56,120
Speaker 2: It's not that type of sequoia or whatever it's. It's

756
00:47:56,480 --> 00:48:00,920
Speaker 2: I don't know, in my mind, I don't see how

757
00:48:01,280 --> 00:48:10,880
Speaker 2: individual plants can then have enough experience to learn, I guess,

758
00:48:10,920 --> 00:48:14,080
Speaker 2: to be intelligent in environments right to then take actions,

759
00:48:14,080 --> 00:48:16,440
Speaker 2: because then it always goes back to the action what

760
00:48:16,440 --> 00:48:19,840
Speaker 2: what is actually being done? But you know, think about

761
00:48:19,880 --> 00:48:25,400
Speaker 2: the evolution of some plants that like taste horrible or

762
00:48:25,440 --> 00:48:28,600
Speaker 2: have or are toxic to predators or anything that would

763
00:48:28,640 --> 00:48:31,000
Speaker 2: eat them. Right, that's something.

764
00:48:31,880 --> 00:48:34,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, And then maybe I like where it goes with this.

765
00:48:35,160 --> 00:48:39,239
Speaker 3: Maybe it points out the weakness in some of these

766
00:48:39,320 --> 00:48:43,840
Speaker 3: arguments is the idea of a distinction between a group

767
00:48:44,000 --> 00:48:48,040
Speaker 3: and an individual. Does you know a single stalk of

768
00:48:48,120 --> 00:48:51,680
Speaker 3: corn sprout from the ground like a hand sprouting from

769
00:48:51,680 --> 00:48:54,640
Speaker 3: a grave in a horror movie and say to the universe,

770
00:48:54,920 --> 00:48:59,960
Speaker 3: I corn, not all corn, just the one that is

771
00:49:00,160 --> 00:49:04,360
Speaker 3: me icorn, I corn coming to you soon from.

772
00:49:06,239 --> 00:49:10,120
Speaker 2: But yeah, because how do you transfer that information? Let's

773
00:49:10,160 --> 00:49:17,000
Speaker 2: say a single stock of corn gets played Mozart over

774
00:49:17,040 --> 00:49:19,160
Speaker 2: and over and over again until the day that it

775
00:49:19,239 --> 00:49:23,600
Speaker 2: passes away. But it's alone in a chamber where it's growing.

776
00:49:24,160 --> 00:49:27,839
Speaker 2: Does that corn transfer that information in any way even

777
00:49:27,880 --> 00:49:30,279
Speaker 2: if you take the seeds or you know that you

778
00:49:30,320 --> 00:49:33,520
Speaker 2: take that corn to make more corn? Is there epigenetics

779
00:49:33,560 --> 00:49:34,560
Speaker 2: involved with this thing?

780
00:49:35,239 --> 00:49:35,640
Speaker 1: Right?

781
00:49:35,840 --> 00:49:38,399
Speaker 3: Do you like if you took that one of those

782
00:49:38,440 --> 00:49:42,400
Speaker 3: Mozart kernels and you planted it in another field of corn,

783
00:49:42,560 --> 00:49:48,000
Speaker 3: would the other corn be like this nerd right, yeah.

784
00:49:47,680 --> 00:49:50,600
Speaker 2: But then you play Mozart to the entire field and

785
00:49:50,719 --> 00:49:54,960
Speaker 2: that one piece of corn is like, I don't know, nodding,

786
00:49:55,000 --> 00:49:59,080
Speaker 2: it's yeah, of corn, it's vibe. Yeah, I don't know.

787
00:49:59,400 --> 00:50:02,840
Speaker 3: I mean, it's a good question. We know that plants

788
00:50:02,920 --> 00:50:08,040
Speaker 3: do have these very specific adaptations, right, you mentioned stuff

789
00:50:08,120 --> 00:50:13,680
Speaker 3: like capsaisin or various toxins. Plants can also respond to attacks,

790
00:50:14,160 --> 00:50:17,200
Speaker 3: like there's some sweet potatoes that when they are bitten

791
00:50:17,640 --> 00:50:21,800
Speaker 3: or chewed or attacked by some kind of creature, they

792
00:50:21,840 --> 00:50:28,000
Speaker 3: release chemical signals that make other nearby plants spread defensive

793
00:50:28,120 --> 00:50:32,040
Speaker 3: proteins that make them tougher to eat. So plants do,

794
00:50:32,440 --> 00:50:35,399
Speaker 3: in a way, talk to each other. They just they

795
00:50:35,440 --> 00:50:39,920
Speaker 3: do it through complex chemical signals that human scientists still

796
00:50:39,960 --> 00:50:44,160
Speaker 3: don't understand. That gets very close to sounding a little

797
00:50:44,239 --> 00:50:45,560
Speaker 3: like intelligence, doesn't it.

798
00:50:45,840 --> 00:50:49,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a crazy move. By the way, being eaten

799
00:50:49,480 --> 00:50:51,640
Speaker 2: all y'all get really hard, so he won't want to

800
00:50:51,640 --> 00:50:56,759
Speaker 2: eat more of us. Everybody will survive. Hit the gym. Yeah, No,

801
00:50:56,840 --> 00:50:57,560
Speaker 2: that's crazy.

802
00:50:58,560 --> 00:50:59,279
Speaker 3: I agree with you.

803
00:50:59,360 --> 00:50:59,640
Speaker 2: It is.

804
00:51:00,080 --> 00:51:06,759
Speaker 3: It's crazy because it has been occurring far before humanity.

805
00:51:06,880 --> 00:51:12,160
Speaker 3: Hit the scene right, So this anthrocentrism might be stymying

806
00:51:12,360 --> 00:51:14,480
Speaker 3: some of our progress, Like at the far end of

807
00:51:14,520 --> 00:51:20,319
Speaker 3: the spectrum. I still remember our episode on plant communication.

808
00:51:20,719 --> 00:51:22,960
Speaker 3: I don't think I don't. I don't know about you, Matt,

809
00:51:23,000 --> 00:51:25,640
Speaker 3: but I don't think either of us were expecting it

810
00:51:25,680 --> 00:51:29,640
Speaker 3: to go as far as it did. Like I didn't

811
00:51:29,680 --> 00:51:31,440
Speaker 3: know they talk to each other.

812
00:51:32,239 --> 00:51:36,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, it's very different. The chemical signals always goes

813
00:51:36,480 --> 00:51:38,800
Speaker 2: back to that movie The Happening I think from m

814
00:51:38,880 --> 00:51:46,400
Speaker 2: Night Shyamalan. God, but it's worth a watch at some point.

815
00:51:46,480 --> 00:51:52,880
Speaker 2: Just imagine it. Just imagine that plant somehow developed a

816
00:51:53,080 --> 00:51:58,480
Speaker 2: simultaneous defense mechanism against humans. That's fascinating to me. It's

817
00:51:58,520 --> 00:52:02,680
Speaker 2: a cool thought experiment. You have to go through well,

818
00:52:02,880 --> 00:52:06,520
Speaker 2: Mark Wahlberg talk saying every line like he's whispering it

819
00:52:06,760 --> 00:52:10,120
Speaker 2: just a little bit, but it's okay, you can get

820
00:52:10,120 --> 00:52:11,920
Speaker 2: through it. Fascinating idea.

821
00:52:12,320 --> 00:52:13,640
Speaker 3: The idea is amazing.

822
00:52:14,520 --> 00:52:19,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, I lost myself because now I've just got visions

823
00:52:19,239 --> 00:52:21,280
Speaker 2: of Mark Wahlberg whispering his lines.

824
00:52:23,200 --> 00:52:26,680
Speaker 3: You're saying, there's something wrong with the with the plants.

825
00:52:27,000 --> 00:52:29,359
Speaker 2: Say a load to your mother for me, to your mother,

826
00:52:29,400 --> 00:52:31,520
Speaker 2: for me, chicken.

827
00:52:32,360 --> 00:52:37,000
Speaker 3: I promise I'm not racist anymore, right, But I walked

828
00:52:37,000 --> 00:52:38,080
Speaker 3: down the street for that one.

829
00:52:38,239 --> 00:52:40,239
Speaker 2: But I really like him as an actor. By the way,

830
00:52:40,360 --> 00:52:42,719
Speaker 2: for some reason in this movie with him whispering just

831
00:52:42,800 --> 00:52:43,759
Speaker 2: I don't know why, it bothered me.

832
00:52:43,960 --> 00:52:47,919
Speaker 3: Well, also, that was a directorial choice, so I can't

833
00:52:47,920 --> 00:52:51,400
Speaker 3: put entirely on him, right, But there's there's something else

834
00:52:51,520 --> 00:52:54,640
Speaker 3: that I wasn't aware of that Mankizo points out, you

835
00:52:54,719 --> 00:52:59,560
Speaker 3: could say that plants act a bit like parents in

836
00:52:59,600 --> 00:53:03,280
Speaker 3: some case because to your point about very old mature

837
00:53:03,360 --> 00:53:07,080
Speaker 3: trees that have, you know, burst through the forest canopy

838
00:53:07,160 --> 00:53:09,759
Speaker 3: and now they form, you know, the top echelons of it.

839
00:53:10,600 --> 00:53:14,120
Speaker 3: Some of these trees will feed the saplings that can't

840
00:53:14,120 --> 00:53:18,439
Speaker 3: get sunlight, and they'll feed them through underground fungal networks. Yeah,

841
00:53:18,440 --> 00:53:23,080
Speaker 3: that's that's pretty crazy logistics, right.

842
00:53:23,960 --> 00:53:26,120
Speaker 2: That can't happen, is what my brain says.

843
00:53:27,239 --> 00:53:30,760
Speaker 3: And then our brains could also say, okay, we get it, guys,

844
00:53:30,800 --> 00:53:35,759
Speaker 3: that's all fascinating. But these plants didn't decide to do

845
00:53:36,000 --> 00:53:39,480
Speaker 3: any of that. It just happened. And I would argue

846
00:53:39,520 --> 00:53:44,040
Speaker 3: that that points out, even though it's a safe understandable position,

847
00:53:44,400 --> 00:53:47,880
Speaker 3: it points out a flawed assumption in the argument, do

848
00:53:48,160 --> 00:53:53,200
Speaker 3: humans decide to do things? No, to what degree does

849
00:53:53,360 --> 00:53:55,080
Speaker 3: you know free will?

850
00:53:55,160 --> 00:53:55,359
Speaker 2: Man?

851
00:53:55,480 --> 00:53:57,960
Speaker 3: Does free will exist? I'd like to think so.

852
00:53:58,480 --> 00:54:01,440
Speaker 2: Well, according to Robert Sapolski, which is a person you

853
00:54:01,440 --> 00:54:04,600
Speaker 2: should search right now through your Googles or whatever other

854
00:54:04,719 --> 00:54:09,960
Speaker 2: search you're using, he doesn't think free will exists, and

855
00:54:10,000 --> 00:54:11,640
Speaker 2: he's been studying it for a long time.

856
00:54:12,160 --> 00:54:14,759
Speaker 3: So he didn't even decide to write his book.

857
00:54:16,880 --> 00:54:20,239
Speaker 2: Right, it was gonna happen, dude.

858
00:54:21,120 --> 00:54:25,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, now refresh us on that he is a neuroscientist, right.

859
00:54:25,840 --> 00:54:30,040
Speaker 2: M hmm. Yeah. I don't have all the facts. I

860
00:54:30,200 --> 00:54:33,279
Speaker 2: was reading about him in October. I was talking. He

861
00:54:33,360 --> 00:54:36,479
Speaker 2: was making the rounds for one reason or another. People

862
00:54:36,480 --> 00:54:38,960
Speaker 2: were talking about him a lot, and it was just

863
00:54:39,000 --> 00:54:42,759
Speaker 2: fascinating to again, and it's worth your time. I think

864
00:54:42,800 --> 00:54:46,560
Speaker 2: everybody out there just really consider free will for a

865
00:54:46,560 --> 00:54:50,400
Speaker 2: little bit, because the act of considering free will feels

866
00:54:50,480 --> 00:54:56,239
Speaker 2: like a free will thing, right, but it may not be.

867
00:54:56,640 --> 00:55:00,120
Speaker 2: Maybe if you hear me say that and then you

868
00:55:00,640 --> 00:55:03,920
Speaker 2: have a desire to think about free will, maybe that

869
00:55:04,040 --> 00:55:06,200
Speaker 2: was just a part of who you were anyway, and

870
00:55:06,239 --> 00:55:07,960
Speaker 2: you were just going to listen to this podcast, this

871
00:55:08,040 --> 00:55:11,239
Speaker 2: episode specifically because that's just who you are. Man.

872
00:55:12,480 --> 00:55:15,840
Speaker 3: Well, it's true, right, It's a thing that most people

873
00:55:15,880 --> 00:55:18,880
Speaker 3: would kind of look at a skance.

874
00:55:19,360 --> 00:55:19,560
Speaker 2: Right.

875
00:55:19,960 --> 00:55:23,960
Speaker 3: If someone says free will doesn't exist, then there's this

876
00:55:24,400 --> 00:55:28,520
Speaker 3: for most people. I think there's this impulsive, instantaneous reaction

877
00:55:29,000 --> 00:55:32,759
Speaker 3: that says, no, me, I'm a thing like I am

878
00:55:32,760 --> 00:55:36,120
Speaker 3: a master, I am a thinking entity. Yeah you are.

879
00:55:37,040 --> 00:55:39,040
Speaker 3: You are an object in space. You are a voice

880
00:55:39,080 --> 00:55:42,080
Speaker 3: in the dark. That is very different. I decide what

881
00:55:42,239 --> 00:55:46,000
Speaker 3: I do. Right, But we also know with just the

882
00:55:46,040 --> 00:55:51,719
Speaker 3: barest like street level hustler psychology, that people can be

883
00:55:51,920 --> 00:55:57,920
Speaker 3: easily pushed into not just making decisions, but feeling as

884
00:55:57,920 --> 00:56:01,400
Speaker 3: though they have made not just do actions, I should say,

885
00:56:01,560 --> 00:56:04,759
Speaker 3: but made to feel as though those actions were their

886
00:56:04,800 --> 00:56:07,560
Speaker 3: own decision. It's deep water.

887
00:56:08,120 --> 00:56:12,479
Speaker 2: It is weird to think that you're starting build once

888
00:56:12,520 --> 00:56:16,560
Speaker 2: you enter the game, right, It's just that's what's gonna

889
00:56:16,560 --> 00:56:19,200
Speaker 2: happen now, depending on the starting builds of all the

890
00:56:19,239 --> 00:56:21,160
Speaker 2: people around you.

891
00:56:21,280 --> 00:56:21,600
Speaker 1: Right.

892
00:56:21,640 --> 00:56:25,120
Speaker 3: And it doesn't sound fair. It certainly doesn't sound egalitarian.

893
00:56:25,280 --> 00:56:29,200
Speaker 3: And it's also like a question of you know, that's

894
00:56:30,040 --> 00:56:33,280
Speaker 3: that's where you get into the fuzzy line between science

895
00:56:33,520 --> 00:56:38,280
Speaker 3: and metaphysics and philosophy, right, Like were the Calvinists correct

896
00:56:38,680 --> 00:56:43,759
Speaker 3: when they argued predetermination or determinism, et cetera? Like is

897
00:56:44,400 --> 00:56:50,000
Speaker 3: are in that argument or in similar arguments of that note?

898
00:56:50,360 --> 00:56:54,480
Speaker 3: The story goes that when you are born, you are

899
00:56:54,520 --> 00:56:57,880
Speaker 3: either destined for hell or you're destined for heaven, and

900
00:56:57,960 --> 00:57:03,799
Speaker 3: nothing you do in any direction will change that initial conclusion.

901
00:57:04,920 --> 00:57:09,200
Speaker 3: Kind of depressing, right, I don't think anybody wants to

902
00:57:10,640 --> 00:57:16,040
Speaker 3: imagine themselves as a series of if then's guest knows

903
00:57:17,120 --> 00:57:20,200
Speaker 3: that cannot change their mind or determine their own course

904
00:57:20,480 --> 00:57:21,680
Speaker 3: in the universe.

905
00:57:21,520 --> 00:57:24,040
Speaker 2: It's certainly not helpful for decision making.

906
00:57:25,280 --> 00:57:30,160
Speaker 3: Right, And by the way, arguing against free will will

907
00:57:30,200 --> 00:57:32,360
Speaker 3: not hold up if you are ever in court.

908
00:57:35,800 --> 00:57:36,320
Speaker 2: You're honor.

909
00:57:36,400 --> 00:57:38,440
Speaker 3: We're just all sort of objects in space.

910
00:57:38,560 --> 00:57:43,280
Speaker 2: Man. I do like that idea. I'd love to see

911
00:57:43,280 --> 00:57:45,200
Speaker 2: that as I been. I wonder if that's been in

912
00:57:45,240 --> 00:57:47,080
Speaker 2: a movie before. Write to us and let us know,

913
00:57:47,120 --> 00:57:48,720
Speaker 2: because I can imagine that's a thing.

914
00:57:49,720 --> 00:57:53,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, Matt, Maybe here we end with a few more

915
00:57:53,920 --> 00:57:58,120
Speaker 3: questions than any answers, like what would this teach us?

916
00:57:58,200 --> 00:58:04,800
Speaker 3: Did plants conspire to use humans as another vector in evolution?

917
00:58:05,440 --> 00:58:10,040
Speaker 3: I mean can we even attribute motivation to them?

918
00:58:10,040 --> 00:58:14,160
Speaker 2: Maybe we can. The my celial network thing somehow holds

919
00:58:14,200 --> 00:58:20,040
Speaker 2: a key to be able to transfer nutrients and potentially

920
00:58:20,080 --> 00:58:28,040
Speaker 2: information across long distances between very different genetic maybe cousins

921
00:58:28,160 --> 00:58:32,680
Speaker 2: of like the same plants. That that is very interesting

922
00:58:32,720 --> 00:58:35,040
Speaker 2: to me, and I think there needs to be a

923
00:58:35,120 --> 00:58:37,760
Speaker 2: harder look at that. I'd love to take one. Although

924
00:58:37,760 --> 00:58:40,600
Speaker 2: I would understand, I would understand five percent of what's

925
00:58:40,640 --> 00:58:45,560
Speaker 2: being said. I'm definitely interested in that. You know that.

926
00:58:45,520 --> 00:58:50,360
Speaker 3: Reminds me, Uh, we should also mention plants squeal like

927
00:58:50,480 --> 00:58:53,120
Speaker 3: we weren't just joking about the sound effect plants do

928
00:58:53,280 --> 00:58:59,520
Speaker 3: vocalized toward one another. And to your point about this communication,

929
00:58:59,640 --> 00:59:03,160
Speaker 3: this no working. I wonder how domestication has changed that, Like,

930
00:59:03,240 --> 00:59:06,800
Speaker 3: cruciferous vegetables are all kind of related to your point

931
00:59:06,800 --> 00:59:12,880
Speaker 3: about cousins, right, broccoli, backchoy, cabbage, et cetera. So how

932
00:59:12,880 --> 00:59:16,480
Speaker 3: does their interaction work? Are they far enough apart now

933
00:59:16,520 --> 00:59:21,840
Speaker 3: that they are mutually unintelligible in a chemical way? What

934
00:59:21,920 --> 00:59:25,800
Speaker 3: about different citrus fruits? You know what I mean? People

935
00:59:25,800 --> 00:59:28,880
Speaker 3: are crossbreading those all the time. What about apples? Apples

936
00:59:28,880 --> 00:59:31,640
Speaker 3: are so weird? Those things are all mutants. It is

937
00:59:31,720 --> 00:59:34,080
Speaker 3: so hard to grow apples.

938
00:59:35,200 --> 00:59:38,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, just go with the honey crisp. Oh wait, that's

939
00:59:38,400 --> 00:59:39,640
Speaker 2: like a brand, now, isn't it.

940
00:59:41,080 --> 00:59:44,920
Speaker 3: Well, aren't they all? I mean there's they are distinct

941
00:59:45,080 --> 00:59:46,720
Speaker 3: types of apple, right.

942
00:59:47,200 --> 00:59:48,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess so. I don't know. That's just the

943
00:59:48,720 --> 00:59:49,800
Speaker 2: one my son likes.

944
00:59:50,080 --> 00:59:52,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, I got I go for Fuji. But I think

945
00:59:52,880 --> 00:59:55,880
Speaker 3: the most misleading one is red Delicious.

946
00:59:56,400 --> 00:59:58,040
Speaker 2: It never was not even once.

947
00:59:58,320 --> 01:00:02,200
Speaker 3: They promised a lot, a lot, and did they deliver

948
01:00:02,600 --> 01:00:06,480
Speaker 3: well each their own. I mean it also depends on

949
01:00:06,680 --> 01:00:09,240
Speaker 3: our perspective, right, Like you're listening to this and we

950
01:00:09,240 --> 01:00:13,560
Speaker 3: could dismiss all of this, all these high folutint dialogues

951
01:00:13,640 --> 01:00:17,360
Speaker 3: about the nature of free will and intelligence, visentience, et cetera.

952
01:00:17,720 --> 01:00:20,880
Speaker 3: And you might say, well, you know what, guys, I

953
01:00:20,880 --> 01:00:24,240
Speaker 3: don't see plants out at the farmer's market buying parts

954
01:00:24,280 --> 01:00:30,360
Speaker 3: of people. Might yet not yet, but we can't get

955
01:00:30,400 --> 01:00:34,840
Speaker 3: around it. The domestication of plants changed humanity just as

956
01:00:34,960 --> 01:00:39,240
Speaker 3: much as humans changed plants, only in different ways. But

957
01:00:39,280 --> 01:00:43,840
Speaker 3: the degree of change is still I think significant and

958
01:00:45,120 --> 01:00:50,439
Speaker 3: quite I don't want to say terrifying, but tune into

959
01:00:50,520 --> 01:00:52,160
Speaker 3: our space. Upungus episode.

960
01:00:52,440 --> 01:00:55,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think the fungus is the way to go, man,

961
01:00:55,200 --> 01:01:01,480
Speaker 2: because fungus eats people, right, I think that's an important

962
01:01:01,680 --> 01:01:06,360
Speaker 2: ass sot. I guess some plants also eats people. It's true.

963
01:01:06,560 --> 01:01:08,760
Speaker 3: I mean, fungus can also change behavior.

964
01:01:09,800 --> 01:01:14,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's something to it. We mentioned that before that

965
01:01:15,240 --> 01:01:18,200
Speaker 2: if you look at the food chain is a little

966
01:01:18,240 --> 01:01:21,600
Speaker 2: different and it continues along. There's no top of the

967
01:01:21,600 --> 01:01:25,840
Speaker 2: food chain. It's just one big circular thing. Fungus is

968
01:01:25,880 --> 01:01:29,760
Speaker 2: like sitting pretty looking at everything going delicious.

969
01:01:31,440 --> 01:01:34,400
Speaker 3: Fungus is like that producer that you might not hear

970
01:01:34,480 --> 01:01:37,080
Speaker 3: on the songs, but when you look through the liner notes,

971
01:01:37,160 --> 01:01:40,480
Speaker 3: fungus is on every track of the album.

972
01:01:42,280 --> 01:01:43,200
Speaker 2: How's she on here too?

973
01:01:44,640 --> 01:01:48,080
Speaker 3: So I guess maybe one of the takeaways we could

974
01:01:48,120 --> 01:01:52,160
Speaker 3: say is this does teach us about the dangers of

975
01:01:52,320 --> 01:01:56,920
Speaker 3: framing the dangers of anthrocentrism. Maybe by limiting ourselves to

976
01:01:57,040 --> 01:02:02,880
Speaker 3: these human or fauna perspectives, we're limiting our understanding of

977
01:02:02,920 --> 01:02:05,280
Speaker 3: the world overall. To your point about the food chain,

978
01:02:05,600 --> 01:02:08,200
Speaker 3: I mean is that I don't know, man, we didn't

979
01:02:08,240 --> 01:02:10,360
Speaker 3: get to answers. I don't know what the answers are.

980
01:02:11,320 --> 01:02:15,720
Speaker 2: Well, just because one person or a group of very

981
01:02:15,720 --> 01:02:19,320
Speaker 2: smart people, at least conventionally to us humans has the

982
01:02:19,400 --> 01:02:22,760
Speaker 2: idea maybe plants domesticated humans. It doesn't mean it's true,

983
01:02:23,120 --> 01:02:25,240
Speaker 2: But I think one of the most important things here

984
01:02:25,400 --> 01:02:28,320
Speaker 2: is what you just said, been to put your mind

985
01:02:28,360 --> 01:02:31,160
Speaker 2: in a place like that, to ask questions that are

986
01:02:31,280 --> 01:02:34,919
Speaker 2: pretty out there like that, just to consider not only

987
01:02:34,960 --> 01:02:38,960
Speaker 2: yourself but all of the things that you do every day,

988
01:02:39,000 --> 01:02:43,760
Speaker 2: including enjoying that piece of buck choy ah.

989
01:02:44,680 --> 01:02:47,680
Speaker 3: And what better way to end right now that we've

990
01:02:47,680 --> 01:02:52,480
Speaker 3: talked about the nature of intelligence and existence with plants,

991
01:02:52,880 --> 01:02:56,360
Speaker 3: Let's go eat some. Let's chop them up.

992
01:02:57,360 --> 01:02:58,280
Speaker 2: I'm so hungry.

993
01:02:58,800 --> 01:03:03,000
Speaker 3: It's what they would want. We can't wait to hear

994
01:03:03,080 --> 01:03:05,960
Speaker 3: what you think, folks. Again, Like we said, this is

995
01:03:06,440 --> 01:03:11,120
Speaker 3: a more philosophical conversation, right and we would love for

996
01:03:11,240 --> 01:03:14,919
Speaker 3: you to be a part of it. So let's call

997
01:03:14,960 --> 01:03:20,400
Speaker 3: it free will and find us. We're on the internet,

998
01:03:20,400 --> 01:03:26,000
Speaker 3: We're on YouTube, Instagram, farmers only, you name it, you'll

999
01:03:26,000 --> 01:03:29,440
Speaker 3: find us. There's some iteration thereof And if you don't

1000
01:03:29,480 --> 01:03:33,160
Speaker 3: sip the social meds, if you're like, hey, guys, I'm

1001
01:03:33,200 --> 01:03:36,720
Speaker 3: a plant, I'm a quaking aspen. I don't get on TikTok.

1002
01:03:36,880 --> 01:03:37,520
Speaker 3: That's not for me.

1003
01:03:37,600 --> 01:03:41,160
Speaker 2: Ah, well, then find us on conifers only specifically, that's

1004
01:03:41,560 --> 01:03:46,040
Speaker 2: the one. But yeah. Maybe you like to use a

1005
01:03:46,080 --> 01:03:49,520
Speaker 2: phone and call numbers and then leave voicemails, Well you

1006
01:03:49,520 --> 01:03:52,240
Speaker 2: can do that with us. Call one eight three three

1007
01:03:52,360 --> 01:03:56,400
Speaker 2: st d WYTK. When you call in, you've got three minutes.

1008
01:03:56,480 --> 01:03:58,720
Speaker 2: Give yourself a cool nickname and let us know if

1009
01:03:58,720 --> 01:04:00,640
Speaker 2: we can use your name and message on one of

1010
01:04:00,680 --> 01:04:03,560
Speaker 2: our listener mail episodes. If you don't want to do that,

1011
01:04:03,680 --> 01:04:06,880
Speaker 2: why not instead send us a good old fashioned email.

1012
01:04:07,360 --> 01:04:08,600
Speaker 2: We are the folks.

1013
01:04:08,440 --> 01:04:11,400
Speaker 3: Read every single email we get. Can't wait to hear

1014
01:04:11,400 --> 01:04:32,560
Speaker 3: from you. Conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com.

1015
01:04:32,720 --> 01:04:34,760
Speaker 2: Stuff they don't want you to know is a production

1016
01:04:34,880 --> 01:04:39,400
Speaker 2: of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

1017
01:04:39,480 --> 01:04:42,720
Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.